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Speaker 1: M hm cool. I'm Robert Evans hosted Behind the Bastards,

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Speaker 1: the podcast that generally starts with me shouting something a

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Speaker 1: tonally that's either related or not related to the subject

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Speaker 1: of the episode. Today it is uh, this is Behind

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Speaker 1: the Bastards podcasts bad people talk about him never introduced

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Speaker 1: well my guests as in like government or cuse as

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Speaker 1: an NBA player, Kyle kuse Ma, I have never heard

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Speaker 1: of the NBA. So no, I was talking about the coups.

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Speaker 1: I was talking about the coups, and here to talk

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Speaker 1: with me about a lot of coups this this week.

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Speaker 1: Uh is my old boss uh. And editor for I

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Speaker 1: don't know, like a decade Jason Pargeon. It was almost

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Speaker 1: thirteen years the executive editor at Cracked. So does your

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Speaker 1: time at Cracked? Does it seem like a thousand years ago?

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Speaker 1: Or does it seem like yesterday? It's weird. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: does seem like an impossibly different lifetime. Um, and also

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Speaker 1: is foundational to everything about who I am now, um,

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Speaker 1: which is a weird way for it to feel. Because

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Speaker 1: when you showed up there, you were a little child, right,

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Speaker 1: I thought you were like sixteen when you first showed

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Speaker 1: up on the message board. So I could be wrong

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Speaker 1: about that. Oh no, I was, but that was before

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Speaker 1: it was Cracked. That was back when it was your

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Speaker 1: weird little website, pointless waste of time. I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: make it clear to the listeners what what exactly we

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Speaker 1: were referencing here, because it's not it's not something we

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Speaker 1: briefly met at a job a while ago. It's his

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Speaker 1: formative years were kind of spent in an operation that

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Speaker 1: I that I ran. So a lot of the things

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Speaker 1: that are wrong with Robert Evans today you can blame

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Speaker 1: me for in federal court in the upcoming series of trials. Actually, Jason,

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Speaker 1: uh that my entire legal defense is structured around that.

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Speaker 1: This is really great to know. Thank you so much, Jason.

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Speaker 1: But no, like you did, actually like you were my

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Speaker 1: you edited most you It was you were Brockway that

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Speaker 1: edited most of the writing I put out for the

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Speaker 1: entire start of my career pretty much. Um, so thank you. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then Robert was the person who brought original journalism

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Speaker 1: to Cracked, because prior to that it was a lot

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Speaker 1: of like lists and things that were just rerivancy, know

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Speaker 1: the sources, and he brought the concept of actually interviewing

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Speaker 1: people and creating new content. And while I worked at

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Speaker 1: crancked uh, like basically every other night I would have

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Speaker 1: a stress dream about cracked, like I had blown to

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Speaker 1: deadline or had screwed something up, and one height towards

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Speaker 1: the end, I had a dream in which Robert went

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Speaker 1: to some country where there was a revolution going on

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Speaker 1: in eastern Europe and I had to go with him

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Speaker 1: as his editor, which in real life, he's laughing because

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Speaker 1: that's not a thing that occurred. I worked from my

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Speaker 1: bedroom editing coop jokes into articles, but in this dream,

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Speaker 1: for some reason, they sent me along with you to

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Speaker 1: cover this violent uprising in I don't know, the Ukraine somewhere.

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Speaker 1: And when we arrived in the dream, this was it

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Speaker 1: was stressful because it became clear once we arrived that

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Speaker 1: you were not there to cover the revolution, that you,

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Speaker 1: in fact were part of it a flat jacket. And

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Speaker 1: I was like trying to email back to the home office,

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Speaker 1: like do you know Evans is like part of this militia?

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Speaker 1: Like ethically can we like I can't. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how to edit this because he's like I think he's

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Speaker 1: now like leading part of it and so woke up

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Speaker 1: like extremely upset. And those are the type of dreams

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Speaker 1: I had. Right in my dreams, I was a much

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Speaker 1: more important figure in journalism than I was in in

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Speaker 1: real life, Whereas in real life I was just constantly

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Speaker 1: having to like check the Wikipedia page for Transformers to

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Speaker 1: make sure that I had the name of Star Scream

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Speaker 1: spelled correctly. Jason, I mean, that's both a fun dream

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Speaker 1: and a pretty good idea for a Netflix original series.

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Speaker 1: You you you could make some solid, some solid money

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Speaker 1: off of a him. Just say, well, Jason, how do

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Speaker 1: you feel about the c I A. I have mixed

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Speaker 1: feelings because on one hand, I know they keep us safe.

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Speaker 1: Yes it's John Krazinski says, yeah, as as I've seen.

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Speaker 1: I've read a lot of Tom Clancy books. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there are heart their patriots, but sometimes they have to

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Speaker 1: make tough decisions like which government's get to have democracies

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Speaker 1: and which don't. Well, do you do you know anything

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Speaker 1: about the guys who are kind of most formational behind

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Speaker 1: making the see I into what it is, the Dullus brothers.

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Speaker 1: Have you heard much about these guys? I have, and

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Speaker 1: that my first exposure to the name Dullus was when

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Speaker 1: watching the movie die Hard to actually that was the

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Speaker 1: name of the airport that the terrorists were taking over.

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Speaker 1: And I think it was less than a year later

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Speaker 1: I was watching the Oliver Stone JFK conspiracy movie and

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Speaker 1: he mentioned Dullus as being one of the conspirators he

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Speaker 1: thought and the assassination. I like pointed at the screen

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Speaker 1: and said, ah, Dullest, that's the guy who owns the

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Speaker 1: airport and die Hard and and then it turns out

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Speaker 1: it's actually, no, it's not the same. It was named

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Speaker 1: after there's more than one dollar so to let the

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Speaker 1: to establish my knowledge, I knew one fact about the

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Speaker 1: Dullus is and it turned out it was wrong. You know,

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Speaker 1: my my my only memory of die Hard two is

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Speaker 1: that guy, that actor who was also a Republican congressman, right,

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Speaker 1: who played the head of the airport for president, didn't

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Speaker 1: he did run for but it wasn't he also elected

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Speaker 1: at some point? Did he actually serve in the Senator something?

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Speaker 1: Surely not? My dad loves him. Um, I don't know

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Speaker 1: he was. He was fineing die Hard, but I remember

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Speaker 1: him saying Dullest Tower about a million times. And yes,

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Speaker 1: that was my first interaction with these guys interactions the

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Speaker 1: wrong way to put it, But no, they're They're a

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Speaker 1: fascinating set of characters and we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: them for way too much time today. So I hope

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Speaker 1: you're happy, Jason. I hope you're happy, because now I

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Speaker 1: have to read words about the Dullest Brothers and that

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Speaker 1: will that will be him compressing it as much as possible,

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Speaker 1: because one of these guys ran the CIA, the other

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Speaker 1: Secretary of Stay at the same time, and they we're

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Speaker 1: leaving out so much. Two of the most important people

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Speaker 1: in the history of the modern world in terms of

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Speaker 1: how they shape the world it is. These guys names

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Speaker 1: come up in every conspiracy theory, but you don't need

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Speaker 1: any of that. The actual things they did run so wide,

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Speaker 1: and so the the actual conspiracies they were like inarguably

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Speaker 1: a part of you don't. So yeah, the sooner we

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Speaker 1: get started, the better, because we are. If this will

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Speaker 1: not leave you with a full education on the Dullest

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Speaker 1: better how long we go. We could do a Joe

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Speaker 1: Rogan length episodes and it would we could set aside

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Speaker 1: the next six months and and and get a decent

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Speaker 1: grounding on these guys. But we have an afternoon. So

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Speaker 1: let's do the really irresponsibly brisk version of this. UM.

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Speaker 1: So it may be hard to believe for people listening today,

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Speaker 1: but for a long time, our country did not have

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Speaker 1: any kind of state intelligence apparatus. UM. Obviously, like the

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Speaker 1: CIA and the FBI, don't go back forever. I think

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Speaker 1: most people assume that. But the very idea that our

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Speaker 1: country would need a group of people to handle international

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Speaker 1: espionage doesn't go back very far. For most of our

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Speaker 1: nation's history, that sort of international intelligence was gathered by

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Speaker 1: a weird assortment of public figures, charming diplomats and like celebrities,

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Speaker 1: guys like Ben Franklin. Like Ben Franklin in his day

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Speaker 1: kind of did what we now have intelligence agencies for.

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Speaker 1: You would have these guys who were like celebrities and

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Speaker 1: kind of intelligence gathers who would travel around the world

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Speaker 1: and hobnob with rich and powerful people in other countries

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Speaker 1: and then bring back information to the government about ship

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Speaker 1: that was happening in France or whatever. Like. That was

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Speaker 1: intelligence in the seventeen and eight teen hundreds, you know, UM. Now,

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Speaker 1: the most famous example of intelligence during this period was

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Speaker 1: probably what come to be came to be known as

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Speaker 1: the Great Game, which is a political and diplomatic ship

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Speaker 1: fight between the Russian and British empires over Afghanistan that

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Speaker 1: lasted most of the eighteen hundreds. This is like a

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Speaker 1: century of screwing around in Afghanistan between both countries. Um,

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Speaker 1: the Great Game was You know, soldiers played their role

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Speaker 1: in it, right. There were actual battles and invasions, but

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Speaker 1: the most decisive moves in it were the result of

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Speaker 1: this kind of coterie of really shady characters, noblemen and

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Speaker 1: diplomats and adventurers who would forge backroom alliances and put

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Speaker 1: kings on thrones and instigate wars Like there. There's a

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Speaker 1: bunch of wild history with the Great Game. Um, but

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Speaker 1: that was like c I a ship back before there

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Speaker 1: was a CIA. Now, for most of modern history, that

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Speaker 1: sort of stuff was the purview of European powers. The

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Speaker 1: US didn't do a lot of that stuff. In Washington,

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Speaker 1: d c. Through most of the eighteen hundreds, very few

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Speaker 1: elected leaders felt there was value in collecting intelligence about

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Speaker 1: foreign countries at all. Part of this came from a

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Speaker 1: belief that the United States was best ice off isolating herself,

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Speaker 1: and that gathering information about other countries was useless, and

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Speaker 1: part of it came from an idea elucidated by Secretary

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Speaker 1: of War Henry Stimpson that quote, gentlemen do not read

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Speaker 1: each other's male Basically, it's it's rude. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: ghosh to have spies, because that's not the way we

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Speaker 1: want to do things in our nice, civilized country. Now,

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Speaker 1: one of the first American officials to make a concerted

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Speaker 1: push for organized intelligence gathering was Secretary of State John

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Speaker 1: Watson Foster. Now, John Foster's greatest claim to fame was

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Speaker 1: the fact that in eighteen ninety three he directed the

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Speaker 1: overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy. President Harrison had encouraged white

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Speaker 1: settlers in the islands to rebel against the Queen Liliu Kalani,

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Speaker 1: and when they did, Secretary of State Foster approved the

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Speaker 1: landing of US troops in Honolulu to aid the settlers,

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Speaker 1: who declared themselves a government and were then recognized by

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Speaker 1: the United States. A whole bunch of horrible stuff was

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Speaker 1: done to the Hawaiians that we don't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of time to cover today. We will at some point

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Speaker 1: in the future. It's it's a real fucked up tail.

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Speaker 1: What's important for today is that John Watson Foster was

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Speaker 1: the first American Secretary of State to participate in the

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Speaker 1: overthrow of a foreign government, the government outside of the

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Speaker 1: continental United States. UM. I guess, depending on how you

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Speaker 1: want to look at, you know, the genocide of indigenous people,

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Speaker 1: you could kind of see it that way. But going

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Speaker 1: to a set of islands off the continent and overthrowing

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Speaker 1: a sovereign government there feels like a change, you know.

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Speaker 1: Um And he's the first Secretary of State to participate

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Speaker 1: in something like this. His justification for this would establish

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Speaker 1: a pattern that has been followed by most of his successors. UM.

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Speaker 1: I think it would be fair to say, uh, he

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Speaker 1: wrote into in order to justify, you know, the the

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Speaker 1: conquering of Hawaii. Basically, he wrote, quote the native inhabitants

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Speaker 1: had proved themselves incapable of maintaining a respectable and responsible

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Speaker 1: government and lacked the energy or will to improve the

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Speaker 1: advantages with which Providence had given them. So you do

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Speaker 1: see a lot of like ties to kind of how

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Speaker 1: the conquest, you know, the westward expansion was justified. Right,

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Speaker 1: they're not making use of this land and the way

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Speaker 1: that we are, so that justifies us taking over. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and Foster was in many ways the first really modern

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Speaker 1: U S Secretary of State. He was probably our government's

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Speaker 1: earliest major advocate of espionage. In eighteen ninety two, he

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Speaker 1: started to assign military attaches to American embassies and diplomats.

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Speaker 1: He sent out agents to different European cities to go

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Speaker 1: into military libraries and bookstores and comb publication lists so

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Speaker 1: that our defense department would get early warning about foreign

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Speaker 1: advances in arms technology. And you know, when we're talking

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Speaker 1: about that stuff, that's pretty reasonable, right. You have a country,

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Speaker 1: you want to keep it safe from other countries, not

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Speaker 1: a not inherently immoral to like figure out what kind

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Speaker 1: of guns they're buying. You know, that's that's hard to

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Speaker 1: argue with UM as opposed to, you know, conquering Hawaii. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and John Foster's intelligence agency, this kind of thing that

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Speaker 1: he starts to establish is kind of fundamentally defensive. In

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Speaker 1: the eighteen nineties, UM he established a Military Harry Intelligence

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Speaker 1: Division out of his office, and he used it to

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Speaker 1: collect and analyze information his agents sent him from Europe.

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Speaker 1: It grew steadily, and when World War One became a thing,

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Speaker 1: it's size and scope of operations exploded. The man most

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Speaker 1: responsible for the expansion of the Military Intelligence Division was

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Speaker 1: another Secretary of State, a guy named Robert Lansing. The

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Speaker 1: inciting incident for Lansing's dedication to international intelligence was the

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Speaker 1: sinking of the Lusitania in nineteen fifteen by a German

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Speaker 1: U boat. The American people believed that the Lusitania was

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Speaker 1: a defenseless passenger liner, and the fact that hundred Americans

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Speaker 1: had died on it caused rage an anti German sentiment

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Speaker 1: to spread throughout the country. Now, the Germans argued that

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Speaker 1: the Lusitania had been transporting war material for the British

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Speaker 1: and that meant it was a valid target for war.

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Speaker 1: And we now know they were right, Like the Lucitania

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Speaker 1: was full of fucking guns. Um by the kind of

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Speaker 1: rules set down, they were within their rights to sink it.

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Speaker 1: But that was kind of hushed up at the time.

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Speaker 1: As recently as my time in school, this was not taught.

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Speaker 1: It was just a passenger boat was sunk by the Germans.

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Speaker 1: Because it's hard, I feel like, and even now when

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Speaker 1: you explain it, I think when you hear Germans, you

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Speaker 1: automatically assume not the Nazis. Yeah, the bad guy's like, no, no,

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Speaker 1: this is this is World War One. They're not the

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Speaker 1: bad guys. They're not the good guys. We could easily

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Speaker 1: have joined the German side in World War One. This

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Speaker 1: is nothing that we're about to explain. But the dullises

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Speaker 1: makes sense until you understand this part, which is that

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Speaker 1: America there was a bitter debate as to whether or

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Speaker 1: not we had any business in these European wars when

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Speaker 1: World War One and then World War Two in both cases,

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Speaker 1: and fucking world War One is like, you know, world

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Speaker 1: War Two, my stances, well, there were Nazis, Like we

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Speaker 1: had to do something at a certain point. Um world

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Speaker 1: War One. There's a real good argument to be had

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Speaker 1: that if we had just kind of let that play out,

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Speaker 1: things wouldn't have been well, they certainly wouldn't have been

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Speaker 1: the way they went. Who knows if it would have

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Speaker 1: been better, it would have been different. There's a reason

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Speaker 1: we have no movies about World War One were the

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Speaker 1: most part like compared to how many you've gotten about

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Speaker 1: killing Nazis. Uh, there's a reason why. You know, like

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Speaker 1: if Indiana Jones Adventures took place in World War One era,

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Speaker 1: would not be quite as compelling to be going up

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Speaker 1: against the Kaiser's people. It was a totally different scenario.

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Speaker 1: And the morality of getting involved, into what degree we

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Speaker 1: got involved in using that sinking as the excuse to

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Speaker 1: get involved, is very tangled and very muddy as compared

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Speaker 1: to everything that happened later, where it's like, well we

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Speaker 1: were we were late to come to World War two.

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Speaker 1: It's like, uh, they again, something skipped over very quickly.

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Speaker 1: In my history education in public school, it always is,

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Speaker 1: and it's weird. Just it's it's frustrated me that the

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Speaker 1: most recent major movie touchstone for World War One and

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Speaker 1: German guilt in that war is Wonder Woman, which just

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Speaker 1: just portrayed an actual dude as like a literal evil

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Speaker 1: god trying to destroy humanity. Um, when it like, now,

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Speaker 1: he was just he was. He was one of a

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Speaker 1: bunch of identically immoral guys on every side of that conflict.

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Speaker 1: Good stuff. So yeah, at the time, as you've just said,

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Speaker 1: the only very few Americans knew that the Lusitania had

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Speaker 1: been filled with a legal war material. Now, one person

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Speaker 1: who did know was Secretary of State Robert Lansing, because

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Speaker 1: he was privy to the fact that his government had

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Speaker 1: secretly agreed to violate the Neutrality Act by shipping guns

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Speaker 1: to Great Britain. The next few years saw a huge

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Speaker 1: build up in both the US military and an attendant

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Speaker 1: and international espionage apparatus, and by nineteen eighteen, John Foster's

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Speaker 1: Military Intelligence Division had more than twelve employees and worked

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Speaker 1: with agents and multiple government agencies. Now I bring all

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Speaker 1: this up because Robert Lansing and John Foster were the

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Speaker 1: uncle and grandfather, respectedly of the dullest brothers. Which is fun.

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Speaker 1: So these are the dudes who, in a lot of

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Speaker 1: ways raise the guys who come create the CIA um

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Speaker 1: and the dull his brothers are John Foster Doulas, who

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Speaker 1: were just going to call Foster, and Allan Welsh Doulas,

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Speaker 1: who will call Allen Um. Now these men would together

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Speaker 1: invent the modern CIA, overthrew governments of more countries than

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Speaker 1: most people ever visit, and enable a number of genocides

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Speaker 1: and ethnic cleansings in the name of fighting communism and

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Speaker 1: helping fruit companies. John Foster Doulas was born in Washington,

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Speaker 1: d C. On February eight eight His little brother, Allan

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Speaker 1: was born on April seventh, eighteen ninety three. In Watertown,

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Speaker 1: New York. The Dullest brothers were two of five children,

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Speaker 1: and from the beginning they were extremely close. Their father,

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Speaker 1: also named Allen, was a Presbyterian minister, which is not

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Speaker 1: a super showy gig. He made very little money and

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Speaker 1: from what I can tell, he was a pretty decent guy.

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Speaker 1: One of the stories his family told about him as

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Speaker 1: there was a time when he liked, during a snowstorm,

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Speaker 1: literally gave the code off his back to a homeless man.

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Speaker 1: There was another moment where he like suffered a lot

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Speaker 1: of criticism within church leadership because he performed a marriage

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Speaker 1: ceremony on a woman who had been divorced before. Like

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Speaker 1: that was a huge deal in the late eighteen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: right that you would you would let a divorced woman

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Speaker 1: marry again. But their dad is seems to be a

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Speaker 1: decent guy um and is like, well no, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna not marry her. Um, So good on you,

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Speaker 1: Minister Alan Dullish. He was a quiet, thoughtful, retiring man,

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Speaker 1: and his sons did not take after him at all.

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Speaker 1: They were both utterly captivated with their grandfather. With their

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Speaker 1: grandpa Foster, their mother's father, who was the former Secretary

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Speaker 1: of State, and by the point they came into the

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Speaker 1: picture and international diplomat, they were equally taken with their

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Speaker 1: uncle Bert also on their mother's side, that guy also

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Speaker 1: became a Secretary of State. The fact that Alan Dullis

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Speaker 1: their dad, made very little money meant that the Dullest

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Speaker 1: family was extremely dependent upon the Fosters for financial support,

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Speaker 1: which frustrated Allan. John Foster was thus the patriarch of

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Speaker 1: the family, and the Dulles brothers spent every summer with

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Speaker 1: him on his lake house in Lake, Ontario. They were

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Speaker 1: raised to believe that power was in their blood, and

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Speaker 1: from a very young age they grew up with con

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Speaker 1: stations about geopolitics around the dinner table. Since John Foster

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Speaker 1: was so prominent, these conversations often included foreign statesmen and

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Speaker 1: diplomats visiting the old man for help with some issue

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Speaker 1: or another. The book The Brothers by Stephen Kinser gives

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Speaker 1: a good overview of how these summer days on the

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Speaker 1: lake tended to go. Quote early every summer morning in

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Speaker 1: the first years of the twentieth century, two small boys

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Speaker 1: awoke as dawn broke over Lake Ontario. Their day began

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Speaker 1: with a cold bath, the only kind their father allowed.

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Speaker 1: After breakfast, they gathered with the rest of their family

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Speaker 1: on the front porch for a Bible reading, sang a

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Speaker 1: himm or two and not as their father led them

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Speaker 1: in prayer. Their duty done, they raced to the shore,

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Speaker 1: where their grandfather and uncle were waiting to take them

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Speaker 1: out to stalk the wily smallmouth bass. So yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: that's that's how the guys who found the Cia grow

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Speaker 1: up and shaped the modern world as we know now,

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Speaker 1: completely changed the life of every person listening to this.

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Speaker 1: These two, these two dudes growing up under the care

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Speaker 1: taking cold Dad's under the care of this very By

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Speaker 1: the way, if anyone listening, if you're trying to mentally

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Speaker 1: picture what the dullest has looked like, what you're picturing,

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Speaker 1: that's what they looked like. We just well, we just described. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you don't have to go look it up. You can

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Speaker 1: picture these these white guys who are raised taking cold

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Speaker 1: as Yeah, they will pop unbidden into your head like

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Speaker 1: Athena and from the skull of Zeus. It's it's it's

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Speaker 1: almost magical. Did one of him smoke a pipe? You said, absolutely, Jason,

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Speaker 1: Why don't he smoking to pop my imagination because he

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Speaker 1: didn't they look like Mr Potter from It's a Wonderful Life.

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Speaker 1: They do, Yes, as did Yeah. Mr Potter might have

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Speaker 1: been based on their grandfather. That's a solid point again.

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Speaker 1: The guys they're fishing with, our two former secretaries of State,

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Speaker 1: um Now and Alan, who grew up to be the

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Speaker 1: head of the CIA, would later recall that his interest

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Speaker 1: in espionage was first peaked by these fishing trips with

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Speaker 1: his grandpa and uncle. The experience of quote finding the fish,

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Speaker 1: hooking the fish, and playing the fish, working to draw

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Speaker 1: him in and tire him until he's almost glad to

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Speaker 1: be caught in the net, which is sinister as hell

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Speaker 1: because for everyone else, fishing is like a peaceful pastime.

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Speaker 1: We can be alone with your thoughts, and for this guy,

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Speaker 1: it's all about seeing the hope die from the fish's eyes.

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Speaker 1: Give up. I want to do this to people someday.

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Speaker 1: I do want to interject here if it's okay in

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Speaker 1: an audio format. When you're talking about multiple members of

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Speaker 1: a family, it is very easy to get lost. To

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Speaker 1: be clear, there are two guys, one man, the c

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Speaker 1: I A one was Secretary of State at the same time.

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Speaker 1: For the most part, they they their terms overlapped mostly,

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Speaker 1: and they work hand in hand when when we talked

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Speaker 1: about what each of them did, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: overlamp because they worked together, you know, the CIA, and

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Speaker 1: when when the CIA is dedicating itself to reshaping foreign

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Speaker 1: policy and the Secretary of State, like, they work hand

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Speaker 1: in gloves. So when you talk about Alan and Foster,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be easy to get mixed up. But just

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Speaker 1: one is the CIA guy, that's Alan. The other is

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Speaker 1: going to set And it's more confusing here because they're

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Speaker 1: both on a boat with their grandpa Foster, who was

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Speaker 1: also a Secretary of State. Their uncle Bert's easier, thank god. Um,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, it's it's it's gonna be messy. Um, we'll

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Speaker 1: do our best here. So both of the boys seemed

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Speaker 1: to find their childhood's idyllic as creepy as we might

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Speaker 1: find aspects of them. Alan, who again ran the CIA,

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Speaker 1: later wrote quote here in delightful surroundings, we indulged ourselves

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Speaker 1: not only in fishing, sailing, and tennis, but in never

402
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Speaker 1: ending discussed discussions on the great world issues which our

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Speaker 1: country was growing up to face. These discussions were naturally

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00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 1: given a certain weight and authority by the voice of

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Speaker 1: a former Secretary of State and a Secretary of State

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Speaker 1: to be We children were at first the listeners and

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Speaker 1: the learners, but as we grew up we became vigorous

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Speaker 1: participants in international debates. And again sometimes these debates are

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Speaker 1: like literally with like the ambassador to China will be

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Speaker 1: over for lunch. Like there you know this. These these

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Speaker 1: guys are growing up in the halls of power, even

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Speaker 1: though it's their grandpa's house now. The Dulless household was

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Speaker 1: extremely religious, but Alan Dullas was much less religious than

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Speaker 1: his father, who was also confusingly named Alan Dulles Foster Dulls,

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Speaker 1: the young Foster Dullas, not the grandpa. Foster Dullas did

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Speaker 1: take strongly to religion, but his kind of version of

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Speaker 1: Christianity was particularly bleak and focused on labor. His favorite

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Speaker 1: hymn was work for the night is coming, which sounds

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Speaker 1: like a fucking bummer um. By age two, his mother

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Speaker 1: noted that he was fascinated by prayers and quote always

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Speaker 1: says ah men very heartily. At age seven, he celebrated

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Speaker 1: his birthday by memorizing seven psalms. Their mother, Edith, considered

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Speaker 1: her sons to be too special for public school, and

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Speaker 1: so the dullest boys were tutored by live in governesses

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Speaker 1: and eventually attended a private academy. Now John Watson Foster,

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Speaker 1: their grandpa in the former Secretary of State, was the

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Speaker 1: chief male influence on both young men. It behooves us

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Speaker 1: to spend some time talking in more detail about what

429
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,159
Speaker 1: kind of politician he was. John Foster was a committed

430
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: ideological capitalist. He recognized early on that American farmers and

431
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 1: manufacturers had gotten so good at mass production that they

432
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: were putting out more goods than American people could consume.

433
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,199
Speaker 1: This meant they needed foreign markets and access to foreign

434
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 1: resources in order to grow the economy. Now, the only

435
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,199
Speaker 1: way to secure both of those things was what Stephen

436
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 1: Kinser describes as a quote muscular, assertive foreign policy that

437
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: would force weaker countries to trade with Americans on terms

438
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,639
Speaker 1: America is considered fair. Now, I've repeatedly mentioned the things

439
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: that Foster did as Secretary of State, but in some

440
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 1: ways what he did after leaving office is more interesting,

441
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 1: because he became kind of one of the first lobbyists

442
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,479
Speaker 1: in American history. He used his deep ties to the

443
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 1: Republican Party and international diplomats to promote the interests of

444
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: a variety of corporations who paid him handsomely for his counsel.

445
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,959
Speaker 1: John Foster had always been a wealthy man, but he

446
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 1: grew richer by leaps and bounds due to his skill

447
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,199
Speaker 1: at influencing and changing US foreign policy to benefit his

448
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: corporate clients. He was a devoted grandfather, and he made

449
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 1: certain both grandsons spent time around him while he worked

450
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: so they would learn the tricks of the trade before

451
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: they were fully adults. Not only did they live with

452
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 1: him in the summer, but he regularly borrowed them during

453
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: the winters, which he spent in d C. Young Foster

454
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: Dulus made his first visit to the White House when

455
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: he was five years old, as a guest for the

456
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: birthday party of one of President Harrison's grandchildren. Young Allan

457
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 1: started visiting his and Paul in d C. Soon after.

458
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 1: Both brothers regularly dined with their grandfather and a carousel

459
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 1: of influential people ambassadors, members of Congress, Supreme Court justices,

460
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: Presidents Taft, Roosevelt, Cleveland, McKinley, and Wilson. By the time

461
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: these kids routines, they had met like five US presidents

462
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 1: um Now. In their early childhoods, both boys were told

463
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: to keep quiet and just listen to the adults, which

464
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: they did. Um Ali was noted as being Alan was

465
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 1: noted as being particularly curious about other people. He was

466
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,719
Speaker 1: an avid listener, and during his first winter in d

467
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: C he became fascinated with the Boer War. Interestingly, he

468
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: came down on the side of the Boers, writing quote,

469
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: the Boers want peace, but England has to have the gold,

470
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: and so she goes around fighting all the little countries.

471
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: So he won't. He won't stay that sympathetic with the

472
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: little countries. Um. But that's a that's a fund that

473
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 1: I are any Jason, I feel like it is extremely

474
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: important to understand where these guys are coming from, because

475
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: every listener is going to ask themselves later when you

476
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: get into the horror stories. Did these guys do what

477
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: they did because they truly believed in it? Or were

478
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 1: they doing it because they were doing favors for their

479
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 1: rich corporate friends and this was just cover for it.

480
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: I hear this all the time, where people tend to

481
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: take a very cynical view saying, well, they actually never

482
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 1: worried about communism. Is just an excuse to crack down

483
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: them mass labor practices where like where workers were demanding

484
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 1: right things like that. The truth is harder to get

485
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: at because I think on some level, these guys were

486
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: both true believers in God has blessed the world with

487
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: the United States of America and we are chosen by

488
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,159
Speaker 1: this brand of Christianity. They believed in to save the

489
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: world from whatever. And then you say, well, yeah, but

490
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: how does like free trade come into it? How does

491
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: he had to go from that too? Like the freaking

492
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: fruit company stuff we're gonna get into, which is people

493
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: who don't are enough familiar with that period of history.

494
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 1: I think I'm joking about earlier you were joking about

495
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: over them up, Like how do you get from there? There?

496
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: It's like, if you don't understand the interplay between Christianity, capitalism,

497
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: and that like the belief that like capitalism is God's

498
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: will for mankind, then you don't understand entire spots of

499
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: the United States populace. Because I think it's very if

500
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,239
Speaker 1: you hook this guy up to a light deteched our

501
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: test is like, did you honestly believe that communism was

502
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: a threat to mankind? He would say yes, and I

503
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: would come up, he's telling the truth. But when you

504
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: see what they did and what they what they clearly

505
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: knew they were doing, it's very hard to reconcile that.

506
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: It's not Villains are not black and white. Villains are

507
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: are complicated. That's why this show exists, That's why it's interesting.

508
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: And I think we'll get into this more. I mean,

509
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: I'll be interested in your thoughts at the into this.

510
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: I think it's different for both of them. I think

511
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: one of the brothers is a true believer, and I

512
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 1: think one of the brothers was more or less a psychopath.

513
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 1: But you know, that's that's that's impossible to know for sure.

514
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: I'm interested in kind of your your thoughts on on

515
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: that as we get to the end of this, because

516
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 1: they're both different people, you know, like that is important,

517
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: Like they're not they're not both doing They're both doing

518
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: a lot of the same things, but they have different

519
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 1: justifications for it, and we'll we'll cover that. But Jason,

520
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: here's some products by things. Oh we're back, uh, Jason.

521
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed those ads, um. I think I

522
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: think Foster Dullus would have enjoyed those ads. He would

523
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,959
Speaker 1: have loved, he would have loved products. The thing we

524
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: were talking about before the break is extremely important because

525
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: I have been referring to the Dullus brothers as if

526
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: they are two people who like two short people in

527
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: the same suit, who functioned as one human being. That

528
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: is not true that they had the same upbringing. They

529
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: both helped shape the the rapid war against communism that

530
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: would mark the fifties and sixties and everything thereafter that. Yeah,

531
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: they were different people, and as we go, I think

532
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: that will become clearer. I assume how yeah, it will.

533
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: I'm interested again, I'm interested in your thoughts on what

534
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: we'll We'll get to that at the end, because they

535
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: are very different guys, and we'll be talking about that

536
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: pretty soon, because they start to separate in this period

537
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. So when we had left off, um,

538
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: young Alan Dullus had written an essay about how the Bowers,

539
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: who were basically people living in a British colony, the

540
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: British would say people living in a British colony who

541
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: were being unruly and they had to fight them, and

542
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: the British established what some people would argue with the

543
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: first modern concentration camps during their war with the Bowers,

544
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: and Ali was very much on the side of the Bowler,

545
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: saying like England is just greedy for money. And his

546
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: grandfather was so pressed by the essay he wrote that

547
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: he actually paid to have it printed privately. Um. This

548
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: made Ali's brother Foster very jealous, and he complained that

549
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: his younger brother's anti colonial attitude was quote wrongheaded and infantile.

550
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you keep calling him Ali. Did people call

551
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: him Ali or yeah, his family called him Alle. There's

552
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: like three people who all have the same name in

553
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: this show, so it pays us to be really clear

554
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: here in this episode. UM. So, one of our best

555
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: sources on the Dullest Brothers as they grew up was

556
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: their sister, Eleanor Dulls. And she deserves an episode of

557
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: some podcast, not this one, um, because she was not

558
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: a bastard. She was actually an amazing woman. UM. In

559
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: an era in which the idea of educating girls was controversial,

560
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: she grew to become an internationally renowned diplomat and in

561
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: fact headed the U. S. State Department's German desk immediately

562
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: after World War Two, which is like a big gig,

563
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: you know. UM, She's an incredible person, and she seems

564
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: to have been something of the family liberal, or at

565
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: least the most progressive men of her family. I don't

566
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: want to boxer too much into a contemporary ideological category,

567
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: but she was not like her brothers. Um we get

568
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: some of our most unsettling stories about them from her.

569
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna quote now from the book The Devil's

570
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: Chessboard by David Talbot. Quote. Alan loomed large in her life.

571
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: She attached herself to him at an early age, but

572
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: she learned to be wary of his sudden, explosive mood shifts.

573
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: Most people saw only Alan's charm and conviviality, but Eleanor

574
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: was sometimes the target of his inexplicable eruptions of fury.

575
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: Her infractions were often minor. Once Alan flew into a

576
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: rage over how closely she parked the car to the

577
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: family house, his moods were like the dark clouds that

578
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: billowed without warning over Lake Ontario. Later in life, Eleanor

579
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: simply took herself quote out of his orbit to avoid

580
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: the stress and furor that he stirred in me. Alan

581
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: was darker and more complex than his older brother, and

582
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: his behavior sometimes mystified his sister. One summer incident during

583
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: their childhood would stick with Eleanor for the rest of

584
00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: her life. Alan, who was nearly ten at the time,

585
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: and Eleanor, who was two years younger, had been given

586
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: the task of minding their five year old sister, Nataline,

587
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: with her blonde curls and sweet demeter. Nataline, the baby

588
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: in the family, was usually the object of everyone's attention,

589
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: but that day, the older children got distracted as they

590
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: skipped stones across the lake's surface from the family's wooden dock. Suddenly, Nataline,

591
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: who had retrieved a large rock to join in the game,

592
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: went tumbling into the water, pulled down by the dead

593
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: weight of her burden. As the child began floating away

594
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: towards the lake's deep cold waters, her pink dress booying

595
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: like an air balloon, Eleanor began screaming frantically, but Alan,

596
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: who by then was a strong swimmer, was strangely impassive.

597
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: The boy just stood on the dock and watched as

598
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: his little sister drifted away. Finally, as if prompted by

599
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: Eleanor's cries, he too began yelling. Drawn by the uproar

600
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: their mother, who was recovering in bed from one of

601
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: her periodic pounding migraines, came flying down the dock and

602
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: plunging into the water, rescued little Nataline. So that's an

603
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: interesting tale about Alan Um and it's interesting it seems

604
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: to have stuck with his sister for decades since Um

605
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: little interesting and Talbot goes on to note that throughout

606
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: his life, Alan Dulas was notably quote slow to feel

607
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: the distress of others Um, which is part of why

608
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: I think some of the things I do about Alan Dulas.

609
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: But I'm getting ahead of myself. Foster on the other end,

610
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: when Foster was fifteen, his mother, Edith, took him on

611
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: a tour of Europe Um and Alan joined him kind

612
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: of late in the visit. Edith's goal here was to

613
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: open her children's eyes to the possibilities of the world,

614
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: and in this she succeeded. Foster and Alan were close,

615
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: but very different. Where Foster was hyper focused and a

616
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: workaholic with poor social skills, Ali was hyperactive and prone

617
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: to rage. Eleanor considered her older brother more like a

618
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: second father Um, and so he was, you know, kind

619
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: of a kinder and warmer figure. It seems in nineteen

620
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: o four, when Foster was sixteen, he left home to

621
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,239
Speaker 1: start school at Princeton, his father's alma mater. He had

622
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: spent most of his youth as the special boy of

623
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: his family, doated on by a famous grandfather and constantly

624
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: exposed to powerful people. Suddenly finding himself in a school

625
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: where he was not particularly expect special must have been hard.

626
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: He described what Stephen Kinser just calls an outburst of

627
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 1: self hatred, which was fueled I think both by this

628
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: and by his first schoolboy crush. Now this is particularly

629
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: complex issue because Princeton was an all male school. This

630
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: means that Foster Doulas's first love was another boy a

631
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 1: quote wild eyed rebel, as he wrote, two years older

632
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: than himself. Now this boy returned the crush, and for

633
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: a time both young men enjoyed an extremely intense but

634
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: celibate kind of gay thing. It it seemed. It's kind

635
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: of hard to pin down. This was a different era,

636
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 1: and you read about, especially when you read about like

637
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 1: British colonialists, you read about a lot of really really

638
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,399
Speaker 1: close intimate male relationships that are speculated about to this day.

639
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: We talked about this with Henry Morton Stanley. Um, and

640
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 1: we just we don't actually know kind of like what

641
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: the sexuality of everyone involved in here, because at that

642
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: point the consequent insts of being outed as gay were

643
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: so extreme, um, and people didn't talk about it, right,

644
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: So who knows, like what was actually going on here?

645
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 1: It's not clear to me, um, whatever the situation. The

646
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: Dullest family biographer described Foster's feelings for this boy as quote,

647
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: an emotion of a kind he had never experienced before. Eventually, though,

648
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 1: this older partner, who does seem to have been gay,

649
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: attempted to take things in a physical direction. And I

650
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 1: don't we don't know that if um, if Foster didn't

651
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: reciprocate because he wasn't or because he just didn't have

652
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: any of the kind of emotional or mental vocabulary to

653
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: understand what was going on. You know, we really have

654
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: no idea. We're talking about like nineteen o four here, um,

655
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: Stephen Kinser writes, quote, to a young man who had

656
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: so far only embarrassedly kissed a girl at a party,

657
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: it was a devastating and shocking revelation of what he

658
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:55,919
Speaker 1: knew from his Bible to be a shame and a sin.

659
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: He conveyed the sense of degradation with such effect that

660
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,479
Speaker 1: the fellow student walked out of his room and left

661
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 1: the college. So whatever happened there, it's a bumber. Um.

662
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: I think we can we in land on that for sure. Now,

663
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: Foster's school career continued, obviously, and in the summer before

664
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: his senior year, his grandfather opered him. He offered him

665
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: a huge opportunity. The Imperial Government of China had hired

666
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: his grandfather to advise his its delegation to the Second

667
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: Hague Peace Conference in the Netherlands. The older Foster took

668
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: his grandson along as secretary. This experience had obviously had

669
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: an impact on him. He's like in he's he's in

670
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 1: a high school and he's helping to his former secretary

671
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 1: of state, grandpa run part of the Hague Conference for China.

672
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: Like how old would he have been at this time? Seventeen? Maybe? Yeah?

673
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: Like that, of course that hasn't impact on you, um.

674
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 1: And by the time he returned to Princeton for his

675
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: senior year, Foster had decided not to become a preacher.

676
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: You know. When he went to Princeton, he had kind

677
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 1: of wanted to follow in his dad's footsteps um instead, though,

678
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: when he comes back from this conference, he's decided he

679
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 1: wants to be a quote Christian lawyer um, and this

680
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,919
Speaker 1: nearly broke his mother's heart. His family was very set

681
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: on him following his dad as a Presbyterian minister. Now,

682
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: Foster graduated in nineteen o eight with a philosophy degree.

683
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: His thesis paper was good enough that it earned him

684
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: a year long scholarship to the Sorbonne in Paris when

685
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: he returned to the U S. From this, he enrolled

686
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 1: at a law school in d C so he could

687
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 1: live with his grandfather For the next two years, he

688
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: worked on his degree and acted as his grandfather's assistant.

689
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: Foster played paid close attention to the way the old

690
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: man wielded power and influence to accomplish the diplomatic goals

691
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 1: of his many corporate clients, while Foster was busy preparing

692
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 1: to follow in his grand foot past footsteps. Alan Dulis

693
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: also gained admission to Princeton Or. He's a couple of

694
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: years younger than his brother, so where his brother had

695
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 1: been studious and reserved, Ali was a party boy, constantly

696
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: drinking and sleeping with women and getting in trouble. He

697
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: was regularly laid on his school work. He always crammed

698
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: at the last minute for exams, but he still managed

699
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 1: to graduate with distinction, which really piste off his father. Right.

700
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: His dad kind was heckling him this whole time that

701
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: you're spending all this time partying, you're not going to graduate.

702
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 1: And then he parties anyway and graduates with great grades,

703
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: which really pisces off dad. Now, Ali's thesist didn't win

704
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 1: him a year at the Sore Bone, but it won

705
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 1: him a cash prize that he used to travel to India.

706
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: While he was on board the steamship that would take

707
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: him there, he read a book called Kim by Ruard Kipling. Now.

708
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 1: Kim is a novel about the son of an Irish

709
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: soldier in India. Orphaned at a young age and left

710
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: to adventure around Southeast Asia and up into the Himalayas.

711
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,720
Speaker 1: He's adopted by a wise lama and is eventually found

712
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: and brought back to Great Britain, where he receives proper

713
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: education and is trained to be a spy, and then

714
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: sent back to the Himalayas to participate in the Great

715
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: Game and thwart Russian agents. Um. Now, this is an

716
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: interesting book. It's it's kind of seen as an example

717
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: of kind of like one historian of children's literature called

718
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: it the apothesis of the viccor the Victorian cult of childhood,

719
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: which is this this the idea that a childhood is

720
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 1: a thing is really kind of new in the late

721
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 1: eight hundred, it's early nineteen hundreds, right, children were just

722
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 1: kind of like labor or things that died for a

723
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: long time. Um. And the idea that like there was

724
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: something like sacred and special and that children might even

725
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: have special insight that adults don't have was kind of

726
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: being explored in fiction during this time, and that's a

727
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 1: big aspect of the novel Kim. There was also a

728
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 1: countercultural element to this kind of idea of the cult

729
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: of the child, an obsession with the inherent innocence of

730
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: children and a belief that this made them better than

731
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: fallen and corrupt adults. Anyway, Alan Dules falls in love

732
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 1: with this book, and he's particularly enamored by the way

733
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: Kipling described the British Empire, which in Kim is a

734
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: fundamentally heroic force. It's described Kipling describes the Empire as

735
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: quote the sort to oversee justice because they know the

736
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: land and the customs of the land. Now, during the

737
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: course of the book, Kim is told by this Lama

738
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 1: he befriends that quote. From time to time God causes

739
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 1: men to be born, and thou art one of them

740
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: who have a luss to go ahead at the risk

741
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 1: of their lives and discover news. And this book changes

742
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 1: Alan Dulis's life. He keeps a copy of it by

743
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 1: his bedside table for the but when he dies, like

744
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 1: decades later, this book is next to his table like

745
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: it never leaves his side, like the literal copy that

746
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 1: he takes with him to India doesn't leave aside the

747
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: rest of his life. When he lands in India after

748
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: the steamship, he uses his Princeton connections to get a

749
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 1: job teaching English. As a young white dude in early

750
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds India, he lived like a king. For the

751
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: first time in his life. He had servants, and Alan

752
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 1: quickly realized that he quite like having liked having servants.

753
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 1: From then on, as Eleanor wrote, quote, there was hardly

754
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: a time when he didn't have someone to fetch and

755
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: carry for him. Now, the work he did in India

756
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: was not super demanding, so Ali had ample time to

757
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: engage in his schoolboy dreams of Eastern adventure. He explored ruins,

758
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: he studied Sanskrit, He went to readings by Hindu mystics.

759
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: He found himself drawn particularly to the anti colonial movement,

760
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: which is interesting because he's he's consistent with this, and

761
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,320
Speaker 1: that he also criticized the British Empire over their treatment

762
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: of the Boers. But he loves this book, which is

763
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: really a love poem to the British Empires. He's kind

764
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: of dealing with a lot of controversial stuff at this period,

765
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: which I find interesting. And while you don't ever want

766
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 1: to like diagnose someone from Afar, like that's a basic journalism,

767
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: no no, but Alan Doulas sounds like a classic narcissist

768
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: from everything he does, from the burst of rage like

769
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,839
Speaker 1: how dare you do the thing that I didn't want

770
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: you to do? Like, and to the fact that he

771
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: can't really conceptualize other people as having agency or value,

772
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: that he didn't see why it matters of other people

773
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 1: die or whatever, and then that he enjoys having servants

774
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: an you know that sees life is being kind of

775
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 1: easy for him. That would probably fly into a rage

776
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: the moment. It wasn't that's all narcissism stuff. And I think, again,

777
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,919
Speaker 1: I'm not an expert any subject, let alone this one.

778
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 1: To me, that's what he feels like as a classic

779
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: narcissist above all else, which, by the way, is a

780
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: huge advantage if your goal is to run the world

781
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 1: from behind the scenes. Narcissism is not people who do yeah,

782
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: and and this job, Narcissism is not a detriment. We know.

783
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: It's almost it's like being tall for basketball. And I

784
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 1: think one of the things that kind of that very

785
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: irresponsible Jason diagnosis that I also make um over the

786
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 1: over the internet to a man who died before I

787
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 1: was born. Um. I think that also ties in pretty

788
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 1: well to why he finds Kim so attractive. That particular

789
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:39,760
Speaker 1: line that I read that from time to time God

790
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 1: causes men to be born who are going to go

791
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: out and do great discover news and you know, bring

792
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: uh information about the world and change it. You know,

793
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: you are the protagonist of reality. Yes, God has chosen

794
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: you to be the main character of the story. Yeah,

795
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: you are Jason Statham, um, which you know, my fellow

796
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 1: Statham might snow there's only one Jason Statham, and it

797
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 1: is confusingly Dwayne the Rock Johnson. You know what else

798
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: is Dwayne the Rock Johnson Jason Products and Services. We're

799
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 1: back and we're just celebrating the Rock for a moment.

800
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:33,240
Speaker 1: UMU drinking him in. So during his time at Princeton,

801
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 1: Alan Dullis dated numerous women, most of whom he either

802
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 1: cheated on or dumped very quickly. One of these women

803
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: was Janet Avery. He found her boring. She was, in

804
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 1: his words, too conventional and practical, so he dropped her,

805
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 1: and immediately afterwards his older brother Foster started dating her.

806
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: They soon married and were married like the rest of

807
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 1: their lives. Foster is very dedicated to his wife um

808
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: and very very much in love. Alan, I don't know

809
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: is capable of that kind of relationship. We'll talk about

810
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: that more later. Now. Once he was done with law school,

811
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: Foster reached out to the head of the Sullivan and

812
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 1: Cromwell law firm to inquire about a job. Now, at

813
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 1: the time, Sullivan and Cromwell was probably the most powerful

814
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: law They may be the most powerful law firm that

815
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 1: ever existed. Um by a long margin. Sullivan and Cromwell

816
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 1: had been formed in eighteen seventy nine to do something

817
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: that at the time was new, bring investors and businesses

818
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: together to create large, modern corporations. Their job in an

819
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 1: era when corporations didn't really exist in the in the

820
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 1: kind of the modern sense of the word, was to

821
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 1: create them. That's what this law firm did. Stephen Kinzer writes,

822
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: quote Sullivan and Cromwell played an important role in the

823
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 1: development of modern capitalism by helping to organize what its

824
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: official history calls some of America's greatest industrial, commercial, and

825
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 1: financial enterprises. In eighteen eighty two, it created Edison General

826
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 1: Electric Company. Seven years later, with the financier JP Morgan

827
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: as its client, it wove twenty one steelmakers into the

828
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: National Tube Company, and then in one merged National Tube

829
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 1: with seven other companies to create US Steel. Capitalized it

830
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: more than one billion dollars, an astounding sum at the time.

831
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: The railroad magnate E. H. Harriman, whom President Theodore Roosevelt

832
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,240
Speaker 1: had denounced as a malefactor of great wealth and enemy

833
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 1: of the Republic, hired the firm to wage two of

834
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: his legendary proxy wars, one to take over the Illinois

835
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: Central railroad and another to fend off angry shareholders at

836
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 1: the Wells Fargo Bank, and won the first with tactics

837
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,879
Speaker 1: and that a New York newspaper called one of those

838
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: ruthless exercises of their power of sheer millions, and the

839
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: second with complex maneuvers that, according to a book about

840
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 1: the firm, amounted to deceit, bribery and trickery that was

841
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: all legal. Soon afterwards, working on behalf of French investors

842
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: who were facing ruin after their effort to build a

843
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: canal across Panama collapsed, Sullivan and Cromwell achieved a unique

844
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: triumph in global politics through a master a lobbying campaign.

845
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 1: It's endlessly resourceful. Managing partner William Nelson Cromwell persuaded the

846
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: United States Congress to reverse this decision to build a

847
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: canal across Nicaragua and to play pay his French clients

848
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 1: forty million for their land in Panama. Instead, we could

849
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,800
Speaker 1: do episodes on this law firm like they're they invent

850
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 1: a lot of the modern US ecoto, or at least

851
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 1: not invent. They are foundational in the structural formation of

852
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 1: a huge amount of the modern US economy. UM we

853
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 1: talk about them a little bit more in our episodes

854
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 1: on Panama with Chelsea Manning. UM, if you want to

855
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: check some of that out. Now, one newspaper editorial described

856
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: William Cromwell as quote the man whose masterful mind wetted

857
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:45,479
Speaker 1: on the grindstone of corporate cunning, conceived and carried out

858
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: the rape of the Isthmus, Which is the kind of

859
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: writing you don't get in editorials anymore. M that's a shape. Now,

860
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: this was the guy that Foster Dolast in his job

861
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 1: application to the guy who raped Panama is the dude

862
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: he applies for a gig with. Now, Normally, you know,

863
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: Foster Dolts at this time has just graduated Princeton, He

864
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: has no established legal career. This is the biggest law

865
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 1: firm in the world. Normally, a dude with Foster's resume

866
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: is not going to get the attention of the guy

867
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 1: who's maybe the most powerful single lawyer on the planet.

868
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 1: But William Cromwell was good friends with Foster's grandfather, the

869
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: former Secretary of State, who put in a good word

870
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 1: for his grandson and assured that the assured Cromwell that

871
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: the fresh out of law school twenty something, UM would

872
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: do well at the job, so Foster gets hired. You know,

873
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: nepotism obviously, right, how else is it going to start

874
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 1: for this guy? Um? His starting salary was twelve fifty

875
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: per week, which actually put him about a hundred dollars

876
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,879
Speaker 1: a year below the average American salary at the time,

877
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: so they're not paying him much at a start. But

878
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: of course, his grandpa's rich, and his grandfather sends some

879
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 1: money every month, which ensures he's able to still afford

880
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: a nice home in New York City close to his

881
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 1: firm's new office. No, this is him kind of introducing

882
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 1: himself to high society, to politics. You have to have

883
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 1: a nice house to host people. His grandpa pays for

884
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 1: all that. Foster Dulas was a hard worker, though he

885
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 1: was a workaholic from the get go. He was actually

886
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 1: unable to walk during his honeymoon with Janet because right

887
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 1: before the honeymoon he took a business trip to British Guyana,

888
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: which gave him a nearly fatal dose of malaria. And

889
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: this will be kind of the pattern of their relationship.

890
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: He doesn't cheat on his wife. He's very dedicated to her,

891
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: but he is even more dedicated to his work. Alan

892
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: Dullas returned home after his time in India, and unlike

893
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,720
Speaker 1: his older brother, he did not initially have a strong

894
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 1: sense of direction for his life. It was World War

895
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 1: One that would finally provide the younger Dullus brother with

896
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,919
Speaker 1: his great inspiration. During the war years, Great Britain sent

897
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 1: Captain Alex Gaunt to Washington, d C. To act as

898
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,760
Speaker 1: their government's military attache here. Now, Gaunt was, of course

899
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: friends with Alan's uncle Lansing, who was by that point

900
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: the U S Secretary of State under Wilson. His uncle,

901
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: Burt Right, the guy he goes fishing with as a kid,

902
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 1: is the Secretary of State. When World War One gets off,

903
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: and Alan spends time with his uncle and this British

904
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 1: spy who's working they're kind of trying to convince the

905
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: U S to get involved in the war. On Great

906
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 1: Britain's behalf. Alan spends a lot of time with his

907
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 1: uncle and Captain Gaunt, and he listens with rapt attention

908
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 1: as Gaunt talks about his job. Now, at this point,

909
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 1: the British were trying their damnedest to bring the U

910
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: S into war on their side of the equation. For

911
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 1: Captain Gaunt. This meant hiring Pinkerton detectives to monitor U

912
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: s ports and hiring agents to infiltrate and report on

913
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 1: groups with quote anti British attitudes. Alan Dulas was enthralled

914
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 1: by this. One source close to him at the time

915
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: later recalled he thought of Gaunt as one of the

916
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,839
Speaker 1: most exciting men he had ever met. He made up

917
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: his mind that one of these days he would become

918
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: an intelligence operative just like him, and you get kind

919
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 1: of a James Bond vibe from Gaunt. Of course, Allan

920
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: wants to be this guy. So Alan takes the Foreign

921
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: Service examined nineteen sixteen. He passes and joins the State Department,

922
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 1: and he soon made a diplomat because again, his grandpa

923
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 1: is the former Secretary of State. His uncle's the current

924
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 1: Secretary of State. Not hard to get a gig at

925
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: the State State Department when your uncle's the Secretary of State.

926
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 1: The department sent Alan to burn, Switzerland, which was both

927
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 1: close enough to the war to be exciting and neutral

928
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 1: enough to still have the kind of nightlife that Alan

929
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 1: Dullis enjoyed. He spent most of his time there hob

930
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: nobbing with other diplomats and by one account, sleeping his

931
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 1: way through the local refugee population. Diplomat was Alan's official

932
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 1: job title, but in that place in time, his real

933
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: job was espionage, spying on other diplomats, building sources, and

934
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 1: funneling information back to the US. He found this extremely exciting,

935
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: and he bragged his family that his life was now

936
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: filled with quote unmentionable happenings. He writes this in a

937
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: letter back home, like I have a spy. Guys, this

938
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 1: isn't that cool. At what point in history, because it

939
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,359
Speaker 1: sounds like it was before this, At what point in

940
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 1: history did we as a culture, or in the West

941
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:59,439
Speaker 1: as a culture, decide that being a spy was sexy.

942
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,319
Speaker 1: I think it's the great game. I think that's what

943
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 1: really because there's all these like Kim, all these novels

944
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 1: that you can see, you can draw it a direct

945
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: line from Kim to James Bond. These novels kind of

946
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 1: idolizing these British men of action who travel into the

947
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 1: mysterious East and spend time hiking through the mountains and

948
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: leading insurgencies and fighting Russian spies. Um. And that's really

949
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 1: when it becomes popular fiction of the day, makes it

950
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:29,919
Speaker 1: romantic um, and then World War One kind of makes

951
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 1: it accessible because suddenly there's a much more of a

952
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: need for espionage workers and you have this idea that

953
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: it's sexy, and while you had that same idea about combat. Right,

954
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 1: That's a big reason why World War One starts the

955
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:45,400
Speaker 1: way it does is all of these colonial wars and

956
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,879
Speaker 1: kind of tricked young Western boys into thinking that war

957
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 1: was this glorious, exciting adventure that gets disabused by machine

958
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: guns and artillery shells. The romance around espionage doesn't because

959
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: it's different, you know it is it is easier to

960
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 1: make it sexy because you're not just charging with a

961
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 1: thousand other anonymous guys into death's jaws. Um. But to me,

962
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 1: this is crucial and a crucial point and understanding why

963
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: later on Alan is going to be able to do

964
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 1: what he does, because even before James Bond, we had

965
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,280
Speaker 1: this cultural image of that there's something extremely cool about

966
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 1: someone like you. Compared it to combat. The difference is

967
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 1: that combat is legal there, that that is something that

968
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:31,720
Speaker 1: is done within the law, and within that a government

969
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 1: has declared war, you're you're operating by the rules of

970
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 1: combat and uniform. The entire thing with espionage is you

971
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 1: are operating outside the law, and we love it. If

972
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: you are James Bond, you are murdering somebody who because

973
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: they're trying to develop a weapon, and you're, you know,

974
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:50,359
Speaker 1: hitting them with a poison blow dart you fired from

975
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 1: your watch. That is against the law. You actually are

976
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: not allowed to kill people with a poison watch. It's

977
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 1: most countries have laws against new doing that. We love

978
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:05,880
Speaker 1: spies because they go off the grid, because they operate

979
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 1: behind the scenes, because they don't answer to anybody, they

980
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: get the job done. And whether you're talking about Jack

981
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: Ryan or Ethan Hunt or James Bond, to this day,

982
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 1: we love that idea of these guys who go out

983
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:22,479
Speaker 1: there behind the scenes, off the books, and they keep

984
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 1: us safe and we don't want to know what they're doing.

985
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: And so even this show, when you talk about the atrocities,

986
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 1: there's still some segment of people it's like, well, yeah,

987
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 1: but that's what had to be done to stop the

988
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 1: one had to be done. And you know, I if

989
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 1: I can get a little conspiratorial here, I think you

990
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 1: can draw a line between why spy stories are so

991
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 1: sexy and why the government actually does put Our government

992
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 1: puts a significant amount of resources into helping Hollywood tell

993
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 1: stories about like Jack Ryan um and the gangster era,

994
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: because I think the fascination with spies and gangsters comes

995
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 1: from the same place. They're both people who violate the

996
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:08,839
Speaker 1: rules of society, right, They're both people who go who

997
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 1: are who are breaking the law, um, and we think

998
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: that's sexy. There's there's a deeply embedded attitude in our

999
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 1: culture that doing things like breaking the breaking the rules

1000
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 1: in that way and like a cool, violent way is hot. Um.

1001
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: And you know, the twenties and thirties, people fucking loved gangsters.

1002
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 1: My cousin Pretty Boy Floyd had songs written about him

1003
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 1: and all these stories about him and like people. That

1004
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,879
Speaker 1: was a real problem for the federal government because number one,

1005
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,280
Speaker 1: it made it harder to catch these people that folks

1006
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 1: were so sympathetic to them. And I think the people

1007
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,839
Speaker 1: are attracted to spies for the same reason. But it's

1008
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 1: good for the government. If people think spies are cool,

1009
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: it's good for the government. People like the CIA, you know. Um,

1010
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:53,399
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know how conspiratorial I can

1011
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:55,760
Speaker 1: get there, because I don't think it's it's super nuanced.

1012
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 1: I think it's it's a matter of like is the

1013
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:00,399
Speaker 1: same reason why the the Defense Department will and over

1014
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 1: military assets to Hollywood if they want to film a

1015
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: movie that's gonna make the military look good, and that's

1016
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 1: not a conspiracy theory, the Department of Defense will will

1017
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: demand to see the script before they'll let you shoot

1018
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 1: on an aircraft carrier. And if you've got a scene

1019
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: in there that makes the military look bad or in effective,

1020
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 1: they won't make you change it, and they will change it.

1021
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:20,439
Speaker 1: I don't know. I I haven't fully developed the thought

1022
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 1: of like the connection between that and gangster stuff, but

1023
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: you can read people like the director of the FBI,

1024
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 1: j Ad Grow who we're talking about what a problem

1025
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 1: it is that people think gangsters are cool. Um. There

1026
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 1: was a lot of talk about that in early movies

1027
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:33,799
Speaker 1: of the day. UM, a lot of the very first

1028
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 1: police union in the country, the port Portland Police Union,

1029
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 1: put out a big statement in the nineteen late forties

1030
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 1: about how dangerous Hollywood gangster movies are because they were

1031
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 1: going to get people to think that organized crime was

1032
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:48,399
Speaker 1: cool and that all these people who were who were

1033
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: enemies of society were actually heroes. And I see a

1034
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,839
Speaker 1: connection between that and kind of our romance with espionage,

1035
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 1: but well and our romance with dirty Harry type cops

1036
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:02,439
Speaker 1: who who first and ask questions later, and they don't

1037
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 1: let the constitution get in their way. You know, it's

1038
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:08,400
Speaker 1: like there unless some lawyer let this, let this monster

1039
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 1: back out in the streets. So I'm just gonna put

1040
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 1: a bullet in the guy, and we cheer for it,

1041
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, yeah, but it's a fantasy because

1042
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 1: that's the world we want to live in where you

1043
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:19,920
Speaker 1: don't have to check with anybody before you shoot the

1044
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 1: bad people. But you can't mistake that for the real world.

1045
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 1: But in the case of like, would you as a

1046
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 1: people care about what is being done by the say

1047
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 1: in Guatemala or Iran or any of those places, and

1048
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 1: the answers, well, culturally no, because we have been reassured

1049
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:40,840
Speaker 1: that these people are just out there looking out for

1050
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:43,280
Speaker 1: our interests. And yeah, if they've got to torture somebody

1051
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 1: or you know, we've all seen that happen where where

1052
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: Jack Bauer has to torture the guy to find out

1053
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 1: when when the bomb's going to go off. So yeah,

1054
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: the c i A. Is having to torture terrorist. Yeah,

1055
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:55,320
Speaker 1: it's like Jack Bauer, it's like twenty four Like, well, okay,

1056
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,680
Speaker 1: who told you that whether you decide that in the

1057
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 1: in them to see where they're supposed to answer to

1058
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 1: the people, when did you decide that it's that okay

1059
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 1: for them to operate in the shadows? Yeah, and it

1060
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 1: goes back to Dulas, it goes it does and I

1061
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:13,360
Speaker 1: and it goes back from from Alan Dulas. He's inspired

1062
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 1: a lot by Kipling and you know this fiction of

1063
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: the area that starts to romance. And that's why the

1064
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 1: story has to start here because you don't understand the

1065
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,960
Speaker 1: worldview he was operating under until you understand where he

1066
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:28,360
Speaker 1: came from. Yeah, and yeah he was. Um so there

1067
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 1: is a fun story from his time and Burn, uh

1068
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 1: that that I think people will enjoy. So, uh, First off,

1069
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: this sets up that Allan Dulis was not great at

1070
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 1: his job. Um. Now, one night, while he was in

1071
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 1: Burn during World War One, he gets a call from

1072
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 1: a Russian exile living in Burn who had an urgent

1073
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 1: message for the United States. The exile insisted that he

1074
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 1: should meet with Alan Dulas that night, but Allen was

1075
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:52,479
Speaker 1: going to go on a date with As he later

1076
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 1: described it, too blond and spectacularly buxom Swiss sisters, twin

1077
00:57:57,080 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 1: sisters who had agreed to a week in rendezvous at

1078
00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 1: a country in and so he blows this Russian off

1079
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 1: you want to guess with this Russian guy's name was

1080
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 1: Vladimir Ilioch Lennon. Of course, there were only two possibilities there.

1081
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 1: I I so yeah, it's I mean, and like one

1082
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 1: of two things is possible either, and it's perfectly in

1083
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 1: character with what we've actually know about him. He blew

1084
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 1: off meeting Linen to go on a date with two girls,

1085
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 1: or he lied about blowing off Lennen to go on

1086
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 1: a date with two girls later to make himself seem cooler.

1087
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 1: Has there been any studies about because I've heard many

1088
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 1: men both that they had sex with two sisters. I've

1089
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 1: not known any sisters who would go out and then

1090
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 1: find a single man to have sex. That seems weird

1091
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 1: because it feels like you're wind up in a threesome

1092
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: with your sibling, like I'm I'm trail picturing, like like

1093
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 1: me and my brother going out to pick up some

1094
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 1: check its like, oh no, it'll be both of us,

1095
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: And so she can boast later like oh, yeah, I

1096
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 1: picked up a couple of dudes, a couple of a

1097
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 1: couple of dudes from from the Midwest, America. Uh so

1098
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 1: it's actually just us telling if this is just the

1099
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 1: story he told later that also want to call attention

1100
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 1: to something that may have like you may have caused

1101
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 1: a lot of your listeners kind of stopping their tracks.

1102
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 1: You said Alan was actually not very good at his job,

1103
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:23,360
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people, a lot of

1104
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 1: people be saying, well, but then how did he keep

1105
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:30,600
Speaker 1: getting promoted? You have to understand that America back then,

1106
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:34,520
Speaker 1: it wasn't the pure meritocracy that it is now. Like

1107
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 1: like sometimes if you were born, if you, for instance,

1108
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 1: grew up where at the age of five you were

1109
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 1: having dinner with presidents, if you had enough powerful friends,

1110
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 1: you could be awful at your job and you would

1111
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 1: just keep failing upward. Yeah, we didn't solve that problem

1112
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:50,640
Speaker 1: til decades later. Yeah, I mean, we had to fight

1113
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:54,000
Speaker 1: very hard to completely and totally resolve that issue in

1114
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 1: our society, and thankfully we did. Thankfully we did. Anyway,

1115
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 1: So what what whether or not that story about blowing

1116
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 1: off Lennen is true. Alan Dulas would claim to regret

1117
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 1: blowing him off for the rest of his life, and

1118
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 1: he was pretty consistent about this. He later wrote, quote here,

1119
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 1: the first chance, if in fact it was a chance

1120
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 1: to start talking to the communist leaders, was lost. And

1121
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 1: that's the way he would sort of frame this in

1122
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 1: his life, like I screwed up a chance to maybe

1123
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 1: have set off U S Soviet relations on a better footing,

1124
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: which kind of makes me think it might be real

1125
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 1: because he doesn't. He portrays himself as being important here,

1126
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 1: but it doesn't portray himself as doing the right thing

1127
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 1: like he he constantly seems to regret it. I don't

1128
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 1: know what the truth is, right, Lennon wasn't burned during

1129
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 1: that period, so it's not impossible now. Eventually, young Alan

1130
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 1: Dulas wound up dating a check woman who had been

1131
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 1: hired by the American legation in burn and the two

1132
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 1: grew close. But then Alan was informed by British intelligence

1133
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 1: that she was working for the Austrians, using her access

1134
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 1: to the American code room to pass on information. They

1135
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 1: informed to Alan that she needed to be liquidated, and

1136
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 1: he did not blink in sending his girlfriend off to die.

1137
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 1: He took her out to dinner the very next night,

1138
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:11,080
Speaker 1: and instead of taking her home, dropped her off with

1139
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 1: two British agents who we have to assume murdered her.

1140
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 1: She was never seen again. Yeah, um, it's pretty fucked up.

1141
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 1: I mean that is like spic ship. That's James Bond ship. Actually, um,

1142
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:33,680
Speaker 1: having to kill your double aged girlfriend. That that it

1143
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 1: was a plot of like six of the James Bond movies. Yes, yeah,

1144
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 1: yeah right, but again he James Bond is sexy because

1145
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 1: he's a narcissist. He cannot can't forget that, uh you know,

1146
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 1: and so we we worshiped that figure. It's like, wow,

1147
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 1: he's so cold in the face of the mission having

1148
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 1: to get done. You know, it didn't phace him. It's like, well,

1149
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 1: see in a fictional hero. And I not read the

1150
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 1: Kipling book, but there's an element of that he decided.

1151
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:04,200
Speaker 1: It's like yeah, but he gets things done, he gets results,

1152
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:08,840
Speaker 1: like dirty Harry. Grandpa Foster died in nineteen seventeen. As

1153
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 1: a result, Alan Dulas had to rely on his uncle,

1154
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 1: the Secretary of State, to subsidize his tiny government salary

1155
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:16,520
Speaker 1: from this point forward. But of course his uncle had

1156
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 1: plenty of money, and so Alan had plenty of money.

1157
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 1: This enabled him to live the high life and burn,

1158
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 1: hosting parties and taking out again just tons and tons

1159
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 1: of women, only a few of whom he helped the

1160
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 1: British assassinate. Now Uncle Burt would also during this period

1161
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 1: provide Foster Dulus with his first opportunity to screw with

1162
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:35,680
Speaker 1: a sovereign nation. Uh. And this is the start of

1163
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 1: Foster Dulus, who later becomes the Secretary of State, messing

1164
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 1: around with foreign politics. And I'm gonna quote from The

1165
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 1: Brothers by Stephen Kinzer. A pro American regime in Cuba,

1166
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:49,200
Speaker 1: led by the Conservative Party was seeking to hold power

1167
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:52,560
Speaker 1: after losing an election, and followers of the victorious Liberals

1168
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 1: rose up in protest. Violence threatened the interest of thirteen

1169
01:02:56,200 --> 01:03:00,240
Speaker 1: Sullivan and Cromwell clients, owners of sugar mills, railways, and nines,

1170
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 1: who had a hundred and seventy million dollars the equivalent

1171
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 1: of three billion in the early twentieth century invested in Cuba.

1172
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 1: They turned to the firm for protection. Foster took the

1173
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 1: case and traveled immediately to Washington. The next morning he

1174
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 1: had breakfast with Uncle Burt. By his own account, he

1175
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 1: quote suggested that the Navy Department sent two fast destroyers,

1176
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:21,320
Speaker 1: one for the northern coast and one for the southern

1177
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 1: coast of the portion of Cuba controlled by the revolutionaries.

1178
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:27,760
Speaker 1: Lansing agreed, his uncle agreed, and the warships were dispatched.

1179
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 1: That afternoon, marines landed and spread into the countryside to

1180
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:35,040
Speaker 1: repress protests, beginning what would be a five year occupation.

1181
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:37,920
Speaker 1: I think a lot of Americans don't know that after

1182
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:40,960
Speaker 1: the Spanish American War, we sent marines into brutally crush

1183
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:43,919
Speaker 1: of popular uprising and occupied Cuba. It kind of makes

1184
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 1: the Castro stuff make more sense when you have that history,

1185
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:50,600
Speaker 1: which might be wh yeah, and this era of right

1186
01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 1: around World War One, the context of all this and

1187
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 1: the reason why this stuff keeps coming up. The globalization

1188
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 1: of the economy is exploding at this point. But like

1189
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 1: there's always been trade between countries, of course, going back

1190
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 1: since the invention of boats, but now the total integration

1191
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:15,800
Speaker 1: where you cannot manufacture you know, vehicles or wagons or

1192
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 1: cars in this country without steal from this country, petroleum

1193
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:24,240
Speaker 1: from this country, you know, fabric from textiles from this country,

1194
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 1: where you've now got this network. So now whether or

1195
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:32,000
Speaker 1: not the American government's interests are relevant all over the world.

1196
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:37,640
Speaker 1: American employers and corporation's interests factually are to the tune

1197
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:40,200
Speaker 1: of as you said, billions and billions of dollars. This

1198
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 1: is where that really becomes true. World War One is

1199
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 1: like the turning point where from that point on we

1200
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:50,960
Speaker 1: are on in like a one world economy by necessity,

1201
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:54,520
Speaker 1: where stuff is being shipped all over, Like shipping becomes

1202
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 1: a thing. So this concept of well, why would we

1203
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:03,040
Speaker 1: care about putting down own some revolution and some it's like, well,

1204
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 1: there was a sugar mill there, as I think you said,

1205
01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:09,400
Speaker 1: are there's you know, a sugarcane plantation something. It's like, well, yeah,

1206
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 1: but why would we care about that? Like, well that

1207
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:15,320
Speaker 1: that plantation is owned by this corporation that's actually not

1208
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:17,919
Speaker 1: in that country, but it's you know, in these corporations

1209
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:21,360
Speaker 1: spanned borders, but they don't have the power to put

1210
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:25,160
Speaker 1: down a revolution. So this whole thing, like it sounds

1211
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 1: like conspiracy talk when you say, well, the government's just

1212
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 1: working on behalf of the corporations, but it literally was

1213
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:35,160
Speaker 1: acting on behalf of the corporations. It's not. It's not

1214
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:38,360
Speaker 1: a conspiracy theory. It's the reason this stuff was being done.

1215
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 1: It was literally the Secretary of State's grandson, the employee

1216
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:46,720
Speaker 1: of these business owners in Cuba who not Cuban. Isn't

1217
01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 1: these guys who owned businesses in Cuba going to his

1218
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 1: uncle and saying, will you send in the Marines from

1219
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:55,280
Speaker 1: my friends who pay me? Like that's how it happened.

1220
01:05:56,440 --> 01:05:59,040
Speaker 1: I mean people used fancy or language back then, but

1221
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 1: that's how it happened. So again the question is in

1222
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:09,200
Speaker 1: his mind, was there some unified like ideology of are

1223
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:14,000
Speaker 1: we rescuing the citizens there from something? And that to

1224
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:16,240
Speaker 1: me is like asking to what point, to what degree

1225
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:19,960
Speaker 1: did Donald Trump believe anything? He said, I have no idea.

1226
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:24,040
Speaker 1: We'll talk about Foster's ideology more it it evolved at

1227
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:26,600
Speaker 1: this time. I don't think he has. I think he's

1228
01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:29,880
Speaker 1: still the the to the extent that he's driven by ideology.

1229
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:35,040
Speaker 1: It's his grandfather's right, this idea that American capitalism and

1230
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:38,760
Speaker 1: nationalism are best served by forcing using our power to

1231
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 1: force other countries to trade with us and give us

1232
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:44,080
Speaker 1: access to resources, right, and that that's a valid thing

1233
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:47,000
Speaker 1: to use the military for because it's good for us

1234
01:06:47,240 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 1: and and this is my country. That's kind of Foster

1235
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:54,200
Speaker 1: Dolus is the grandpa. Foster dolus Is ideology at this point.

1236
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:57,600
Speaker 1: It's his grandson's ideology that will change. We're going to

1237
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:00,200
Speaker 1: talk about kind of how what he believes alter is

1238
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:03,240
Speaker 1: over time. But my guess is at this point he's

1239
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:06,000
Speaker 1: still kind of believes what his grandfather believed. That's the

1240
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 1: sense that I get. Um again, if you want to

1241
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:11,280
Speaker 1: read the book The Brothers by Stephen Kinzer, you listening.

1242
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:14,240
Speaker 1: It's a wonderful book. Actually, a lovely fan sent me

1243
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 1: a copy of it in the mail, a hard copy. Um,

1244
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 1: which kind of it inspired me to finally say, I've

1245
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 1: been wanting to do an episode on the Dollas Brothers

1246
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:24,640
Speaker 1: for a while. But but thank you person who sent

1247
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:27,120
Speaker 1: me the book. UM. I hope you're listening, and I

1248
01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:33,520
Speaker 1: hope you're happy with this episode. Um, motherfucker. So anyway, Um. Yeah.

1249
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:36,520
Speaker 1: Foster Dolus the Younger learned a lot of lessons from

1250
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:39,160
Speaker 1: his intervention in Cuba, the most significant of which was

1251
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:42,000
Speaker 1: that it was actually super easy for a wealthy corporation

1252
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 1: to convince the US to intervene and dominate the politics

1253
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:48,280
Speaker 1: of a smaller nation for profit. It worked well for him. Um,

1254
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:50,840
Speaker 1: for his part, Uncle Bert was impressed with his nephew

1255
01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:53,480
Speaker 1: and quickly sent him out on another mission. The U.

1256
01:07:53,600 --> 01:07:55,720
Speaker 1: S Government, which had now entered the war on the

1257
01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 1: side of the Allies, wanted to purge all German influence

1258
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:02,240
Speaker 1: from Central and Erica. Now this is probably prompted in

1259
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:04,560
Speaker 1: part by the Zimmerman Telegram, which was a letter the

1260
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 1: Kaiser sent to Mexico asking if Mexico might be interested

1261
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:09,919
Speaker 1: in attacking the US to get us off of Germany's back.

1262
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:12,160
Speaker 1: There was never any chance of this leading to anything,

1263
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:15,960
Speaker 1: because the Mexican government wasn't an idiot um. They'd already

1264
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:18,160
Speaker 1: lost two wars to the United States. They weren't going

1265
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:21,840
Speaker 1: to do it. The Kaiser, We've done two episodes on him,

1266
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 1: one of the dumbest men to ever have power in history.

1267
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:27,639
Speaker 1: The Zimmerman Telegram is like the one of the worst

1268
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:30,800
Speaker 1: owned goals in the history of geopolitics, like just an

1269
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:35,600
Speaker 1: amazing vict gift that he handed the British um. And

1270
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:38,360
Speaker 1: this telegrams existence was really all that the State Department

1271
01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:42,160
Speaker 1: needed to justify sitting Foster Dulus to Costa Rica, Panama

1272
01:08:42,240 --> 01:08:46,240
Speaker 1: and Nicaragua to funk with some German immigrants during this period,

1273
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:49,719
Speaker 1: Costa Rica was ruled by a dictator, General Federico Tinoco,

1274
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:51,879
Speaker 1: who had seized power with the help of the United

1275
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:54,760
Speaker 1: Fruit Company, who was a client of Foster's law firm,

1276
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:58,759
Speaker 1: Sullivan and Cromwell. General Tinocco was in debt to the company,

1277
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:01,559
Speaker 1: and Foster used this leverage over him to convince the

1278
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 1: dictator to confiscate the property of German immigrants. He did

1279
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:08,439
Speaker 1: the same in Nicaragua, whose dictator, General Emiliano Chamorro, had

1280
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:10,840
Speaker 1: also been put in power by the US government after

1281
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 1: his democratically elected predecessor had tried to borrow money from

1282
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:17,600
Speaker 1: European rather than US banks. That's why we overthrew the

1283
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:22,160
Speaker 1: government of Nicaragua, because he wanted loans from the wrong country. Um,

1284
01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:24,920
Speaker 1: it's good ship. Now. When World War One ended, both

1285
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:27,639
Speaker 1: Dullus brothers wound up taking part in a massive peace

1286
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 1: conference in Paris. Foster worked on laying out the rules

1287
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:33,519
Speaker 1: by which German reparations would be imposed. And his main

1288
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:36,160
Speaker 1: contribution here had to do with debt financing, which I

1289
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 1: do not understand at all, and I'm not even going

1290
01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:40,639
Speaker 1: to try to explain, But that's what he's working on here,

1291
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:43,240
Speaker 1: and it's an important job, right, That's what's important to understand,

1292
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:46,479
Speaker 1: the question of how Germany is going to repay its

1293
01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:49,920
Speaker 1: war debts is a matter of international importance, and Foster

1294
01:09:50,040 --> 01:09:52,479
Speaker 1: Dullus is one of the key people trying to work

1295
01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:55,360
Speaker 1: that out. So it's it's a big gig. Alan Dullis

1296
01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:57,800
Speaker 1: gets a job for the Boundary Commission, which was also

1297
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:00,559
Speaker 1: a big job because it's it's good with duty was

1298
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:03,719
Speaker 1: to redraw the borders of Europe after World War One.

1299
01:10:04,240 --> 01:10:06,799
Speaker 1: Both men spent a lot of time with President Woodrow

1300
01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:08,840
Speaker 1: Wilson as a result. In fact, they got to spend

1301
01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:11,240
Speaker 1: more time with Wilson than his own Secretary of State

1302
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:13,680
Speaker 1: their uncle did because at that point their uncle had

1303
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:16,959
Speaker 1: kind of fallen out of favor with the President. Wilson

1304
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:19,559
Speaker 1: had a major influence on them. He was a big

1305
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:22,760
Speaker 1: believer in the USA's duty to quote carry liberty and

1306
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:26,479
Speaker 1: justice and the principles of humanity to less civilized and

1307
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:29,559
Speaker 1: generally non white people and to quote convert them to

1308
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:33,719
Speaker 1: the principles of America. Now, Wilson was a profound racist,

1309
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:36,639
Speaker 1: a big supporter of the Ku Klux Klan, but unlike

1310
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:39,800
Speaker 1: many supremacist white supremacists of his day. He believed non

1311
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:43,960
Speaker 1: white people could sustain a democracy if quote properly directed

1312
01:10:44,080 --> 01:10:47,840
Speaker 1: by whites. In order to properly direct different nations, President

1313
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:51,200
Speaker 1: Wouldrow Wilson intervened in foreign nations more than any other

1314
01:10:51,240 --> 01:10:53,920
Speaker 1: president before him. In fact, he may have intervened in

1315
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:57,120
Speaker 1: more foreign nations than every other president before him combined.

1316
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:02,680
Speaker 1: He sent US troops into Cuba, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Mexico, Nicaragua,

1317
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:05,799
Speaker 1: and even in the turbulent period following the Bolshevik Revolution,

1318
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:08,360
Speaker 1: into the U s s a while into Russia at

1319
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:11,559
Speaker 1: the time. Now, the USSR had just started to be

1320
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:13,320
Speaker 1: a thing during this period, and the fact that the

1321
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:15,759
Speaker 1: Russian Civil War was still and in fact, the Russian

1322
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:17,920
Speaker 1: Civil War was still ongoing when the brothers are in

1323
01:11:17,920 --> 01:11:21,639
Speaker 1: this conference. The US attempted and ultimately failed to stop

1324
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:24,120
Speaker 1: the Bolsheviks from winning. That's why Wilson sent in troops.

1325
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:27,240
Speaker 1: The Dullest brothers came to agree during this period that

1326
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:30,080
Speaker 1: communism was now the greatest threat to the kind of

1327
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:33,280
Speaker 1: capitalism and the kind of democracy that they held dear

1328
01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:36,360
Speaker 1: over the following years. In decades, both Foster and Allen

1329
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:39,240
Speaker 1: Dulas would come to see the battle against communism as

1330
01:11:39,280 --> 01:11:42,439
Speaker 1: the defining struggle of their lives. But Jason, that's a

1331
01:11:42,439 --> 01:11:45,160
Speaker 1: struggle we're going to talk about in part two. How

1332
01:11:45,240 --> 01:11:49,120
Speaker 1: you doing, I'm done? All right, good good, Well that's

1333
01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:52,200
Speaker 1: part one. That's part one of the dullest story, laying

1334
01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:55,720
Speaker 1: the groundwork, really getting behind him. Anything you'd like to

1335
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:59,400
Speaker 1: plug up the this episode, Jason, Yes, if you want

1336
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:01,200
Speaker 1: to check out the last book I wrote, it is

1337
01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:04,800
Speaker 1: called Zoe Punches the Future in the Dick. It is

1338
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:10,320
Speaker 1: a science fiction novel. Uh it is. The title conveys

1339
01:12:10,439 --> 01:12:12,360
Speaker 1: exactly what kind of book it is. I don't need

1340
01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 1: to say anything else. I have written several books. You

1341
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:17,559
Speaker 1: can google my name, all of which you're wonderful. Yeah,

1342
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:20,320
Speaker 1: that evans vouchers for them, so I do. I've been

1343
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:23,439
Speaker 1: reading your books, I think since I was like thirteen

1344
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:27,480
Speaker 1: or fourteen when you were publishing it Chunk every Halloween

1345
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:30,920
Speaker 1: on your website. Yes, now and now I'm doing that

1346
01:12:31,400 --> 01:12:34,680
Speaker 1: full time and then part time. M a just a

1347
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:41,640
Speaker 1: podcast guest shows full time guy who had one of

1348
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:45,439
Speaker 1: his books adapted by Don Coscarelli, who also made Bubba Hotep,

1349
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:48,040
Speaker 1: which is which is a pretty significant thing to add

1350
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:50,320
Speaker 1: to a resume. If you've never heard of me before.

1351
01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:53,200
Speaker 1: If you've encountered from my work, it was probably the

1352
01:12:53,280 --> 01:12:56,400
Speaker 1: movie or the book John Dies at the end, the

1353
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:59,320
Speaker 1: horror novel and a movie they can find on any

1354
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:03,120
Speaker 1: stream mean service. But that's yeah, that that that book

1355
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:05,599
Speaker 1: is the reason I can write full time basically. Yet,

1356
01:13:06,120 --> 01:13:09,120
Speaker 1: so read some stuff theypes, read his books, and then

1357
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:12,759
Speaker 1: come back and listen to more about the Dulless Brothers

1358
01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:30,439
Speaker 1: Part two Dullis Carter h h h h m hm