Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wikay a daily with
Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle. Recording from the Brooklyn Bunker where frankly,
Speaker 1: I'm just going to end up sucking staying right the folks.
Speaker 1: I come to you just hours after the shooting, the
Speaker 1: mass shooting that took place in Brooklyn, and you know,
Speaker 1: my emotions, as our many New Yorkers, are very raw.
Speaker 1: And today I will get into, you know, a longer
Speaker 1: in depth conversation with our friend doctor Jonathan Metzel to
Speaker 1: talk about what is at stake in an upcoming Supreme
Speaker 1: Court UH case that is going to be ruling UH
Speaker 1: in New York about whether or not local governance over
Speaker 1: gun regulation impedes upon the Second Amendment, and if, like
Speaker 1: the First Amendment, there is no nuance, right. I mean,
Speaker 1: with the First Amendment, we have nuance as it pertains
Speaker 1: to acts of violence, as it pertains to hate speech. Right.
Speaker 1: But what proponents right, supporters of the Second Amendment believe
Speaker 1: that there should be no infringement whatsoever right their rights,
Speaker 1: their liberty. And after yet another mass shooting that for
Speaker 1: me just felt way too close to home in the
Speaker 1: borough that I live in, I can't imagine this city
Speaker 1: that is populated with eight million plus people to have
Speaker 1: every one be able to have a gun and concealed
Speaker 1: at that. I take the subway right, as most fucking
Speaker 1: New Yorkers do on a regular basis. And yeah, we're
Speaker 1: all used to seeing a lot of shit on subways,
Speaker 1: not the terror that people witnessed today, Not the terror
Speaker 1: of you know, a high time of commute and traffic
Speaker 1: when children are on the subway, right, Like, for people
Speaker 1: who don't live in cities, you have to understand that, like,
Speaker 1: you know, rush hour traffic isn't just about people trying
Speaker 1: to get adults going back and forth to work in cities, right,
Speaker 1: it is about also the subways being filled with kids
Speaker 1: that are taking the train to school. And you know,
Speaker 1: I'll tell you that on a personal note. You know,
Speaker 1: I knew somebody whose young son was on the train,
Speaker 1: right and who it was shaken and terrified and thank god. Okay,
Speaker 1: but like, are we supposed to just allow this kind
Speaker 1: of terror to be normal? Like have we gotten to
Speaker 1: a place where just you know, we're all just living
Speaker 1: in this perpetual state of dread and panic and anxiety,
Speaker 1: and that the only way to assuage that is to
Speaker 1: allow everyone to be able to just walk around locked
Speaker 1: and loaded. Like, I again, how the fuck does that
Speaker 1: make sense? It really doesn't. And so I sit here today,
Speaker 1: you know, reeling, reeling from just my emotional state of
Speaker 1: being that there is no place to be safe in
Speaker 1: this country. You know, let alone, Let me not, you know,
Speaker 1: let alone adding in race and orientation and gender identity
Speaker 1: and class and all of these things like let alone
Speaker 1: adding in all of those other layers that make American
Speaker 1: society in general unsafe, right for black people, people of color,
Speaker 1: right for black trans women, for you know, queer people, right,
Speaker 1: like for immigrants and folks that are undocumented. Like you know,
Speaker 1: my mother, my sister right now is traveling. She's on holiday.
Speaker 1: And you know, my mother is always like, you know,
Speaker 1: very nervous when my sister and I are traveling, even
Speaker 1: though my sister lives abroad, but whenever we're like traveling
Speaker 1: more and moving outside of our space, she gets really nervous.
Speaker 1: And I said to my mother, I was just like,
Speaker 1: where do you think is more are unsafe than the
Speaker 1: United States? Like, let's just be really honest. We're the
Speaker 1: only you know, industrialized fucking nation that has regular mass shootings. Right,
Speaker 1: We're the only place where it is common, right for
Speaker 1: there to be a shooting in a grocery store, a
Speaker 1: movie theater, a synagogue, a mosque, a church. Right. We're
Speaker 1: the only country that it is normal for your kids
Speaker 1: to learn fire drills, but more importantly, active shooter drills. Right,
Speaker 1: We're the only country that is like this. So when
Speaker 1: you take those things into account, and all of the
Speaker 1: ways in which these people who are proponents of the
Speaker 1: Second Amendment have have had their their own righteousness, their
Speaker 1: liberty infringe on everyone else's safety, and just like we've
Speaker 1: had to contort and just deal with that. But in
Speaker 1: a city of eight million people, when you're talking about
Speaker 1: lifting a weapons ban that is in place because of
Speaker 1: just how densely populated we are, you're not only posing
Speaker 1: a threat to you know, mind and spirit and all
Speaker 1: of these things. You're posting an economic threat, which I
Speaker 1: will get into in my conversation with Jonathan, because for
Speaker 1: those callous people that care about nothing more than money,
Speaker 1: what happens when people no longer feel safe to take
Speaker 1: the subway to go to work, and to send their
Speaker 1: kids to school, and to go shopping and all of
Speaker 1: those things guess what that we saw it with COVID.
Speaker 1: They pack up their ship and those that have the
Speaker 1: means and the privilege of mobility do so right, which
Speaker 1: leaves a city filled with what exactly you know, not
Speaker 1: the tax base that has people give a fuck? I
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's the it's the regression and the
Speaker 1: devolving that is become our norm that to me is
Speaker 1: scaring the shit out of me on a regular basis. Today, Friends,
Speaker 1: I am absolutely shook, and I am shook in a
Speaker 1: way that I, you know, realize. The only time that
Speaker 1: we didn't have mass shooting since Columbine was quarantine. So
Speaker 1: we didn't remove guns because they oversold right alongside toilet
Speaker 1: paper and hand sanitizer in twenty twenty, but we removed
Speaker 1: the masses. So if there are no masses, you can't
Speaker 1: have a mass shooting. People were indoors. What does that
Speaker 1: fucking tell you about our society and how absolutely insane
Speaker 1: that is. I don't know about you, but, like I,
Speaker 1: freedom to me doesn't look like living a life filled
Speaker 1: with fear, dread, and terror. That's not what freedom looks
Speaker 1: like to me. And so how do we figure out
Speaker 1: in this heightened state of just God Jesus, everything being bad.
Speaker 1: How do we find our way out? How do we
Speaker 1: find like, what does the other side of this even
Speaker 1: look like? Because these days, I'm starting to find myself
Speaker 1: at a loss for words, which is terrible because my
Speaker 1: job is words. But I'm running out of how to
Speaker 1: make sense out of absolute fucking nonsense, because where we
Speaker 1: are right now in America is nonsensical. I you know,
Speaker 1: I see this shooting. We had a shooting in Sacramento,
Speaker 1: we had a shooting in New York, with a shooting
Speaker 1: in Chicago, Like it's just, you know, the one thing
Speaker 1: that came back once everything opened up, Ware's shootings. I
Speaker 1: don't know where we go from here, but I know
Speaker 1: that we have to go someplace. We have to do
Speaker 1: something right. And with the Supreme Court decision coming down
Speaker 1: in just the handful of weeks, yeah, I'm going to
Speaker 1: be inside this bunker longer than I had anticipated or wanted.
Speaker 1: Coming up next, friends, my conversation with our in house doctor,
Speaker 1: doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks. As always, I am always excited
Speaker 1: to have our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel join
Speaker 1: us on wikaf to talk about a myriad of things,
Speaker 1: and you know, sometimes, Jonathan, I think that we're going
Speaker 1: to get on here and have like a conversation that's good,
Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about, Oh, I don't know,
Speaker 1: things that don't feel so dire and don't feel like
Speaker 1: our entire lives depend on it. But today is not
Speaker 1: that day. Yesterday, in New York, as many people know,
Speaker 1: there was a mass shooting on a subway in Brooklyn,
Speaker 1: New York, and it was a little too close to home.
Speaker 1: Not in an area that I live in, but in
Speaker 1: the borough that I live in, and it's a little
Speaker 1: too close to home, given as how I just started
Speaker 1: going back on the subway following you know, the omicron spike. Jonathan, Like,
Speaker 1: I know that right now you're at Vanderbilt and so
Speaker 1: you're not in New York. But when news broke, you know, what,
Speaker 1: how are you feeling? What was going through you know,
Speaker 1: your mind? I think a couple of things. At first,
Speaker 1: we're having this conversation before all the details are out,
Speaker 1: and so I would say that, of course, this is horrific.
Speaker 1: This is the kind of thing I study. I've seen
Speaker 1: it up close many times. I don't know what the
Speaker 1: details are going to be because as we record this conversation,
Speaker 1: they're just are there just are some really weird, you
Speaker 1: know parts of this. You know, this guy had a
Speaker 1: bag of smoke bombs and firecrackers, he put on a mask.
Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to know what category at this
Speaker 1: moment of this conversation to put this in. Is it
Speaker 1: a mass shooting, is it an act of terrorism? Is
Speaker 1: it some other kind of dispute? And I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's like usually with a mass shooting, it's like a
Speaker 1: white guy with an a R fifteen or something like that,
Speaker 1: and that doesn't seem to be the case here. Again,
Speaker 1: we were We're in a vacuum, and so I guess
Speaker 1: the first point to kind of make is that we
Speaker 1: don't know what category this is. I still don't know.
Speaker 1: Everybody's kind of using it as a warshock test, all
Speaker 1: the Marjorie Taylor Greens of the world. They're talking about
Speaker 1: how this would never have happened if every single person
Speaker 1: had a gun in their underpants and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: and everybody on the subway had a gun, and so
Speaker 1: the gun crowd is making this a pro gun thing.
Speaker 1: Other people, I guess like me, are saying this is
Speaker 1: actually why you need fewer guns and search your gun laws.
Speaker 1: Because as horrible as this is, it happened. The part
Speaker 1: of what it is, it's rare, right, It happens a
Speaker 1: lot more frequently in another places. And so I just
Speaker 1: I think that the question of what this is is
Speaker 1: still TBD. And and I say that with a word
Speaker 1: of caution, because again, when something like this happens, we
Speaker 1: put it into these categories. But until we know a
Speaker 1: little bit more about the case and catch the guy,
Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure, to be honest, how to how
Speaker 1: to think about this one? There's something cleared. Let me
Speaker 1: let me ask you this because I, you know I
Speaker 1: and I want to appreciate you for kind of you know,
Speaker 1: pulling us back from making any snap you know, decisions
Speaker 1: or commentary as this is unfolding. But you know, as
Speaker 1: you're working through the list of and and as as
Speaker 1: the governor and you know, the country is working through
Speaker 1: you know what was this? Um? Was it terrorism? Was
Speaker 1: it a mass shooting? Was it you know, was it premeditated?
Speaker 1: Where you know what all of these pieces were. I guess,
Speaker 1: like where I find myself right now is does it
Speaker 1: fucking matter? Like does it like in all like in
Speaker 1: all honesty like doesn't matter. I think that the fact
Speaker 1: that things like this can happen and it is the
Speaker 1: norm for it to happen in the United States, not
Speaker 1: the norm for it to happen frankly in New York
Speaker 1: City to your point, because of the regulations that we have. Yes,
Speaker 1: people get shot in New York all the time, but
Speaker 1: I'm going to be honest with you, it is usually targeted.
Speaker 1: It's usually like gang related. It isn't, you know, just
Speaker 1: a you know, mass situation. And so I wonder does
Speaker 1: categorizing it matter, Like is it is it just a
Speaker 1: way for us as humans to put something in a
Speaker 1: box so that we can better understand and deal with it.
Speaker 1: But I'm finding that the way that we continue to
Speaker 1: process what has become the norm in America is part
Speaker 1: of the fucking problem. Well, I think there are there
Speaker 1: are three parts to that answer, I guess, and they're
Speaker 1: all probably not complimentary. I mean number one is again
Speaker 1: like this guy had a gas mask and apparently a
Speaker 1: favorite MPTA vest. Like there's something about this that just
Speaker 1: seems I mean, it's it's almost beyond premeditated. There's something
Speaker 1: there's something that just doesn't for me quite add up
Speaker 1: about this story and then you know, the the there's something,
Speaker 1: there's going to be some weird twist to this. I
Speaker 1: have no knowledge at all. I'm I'm I'll be back
Speaker 1: in Brooklyn tomorrow, but I don't know. But I'm just
Speaker 1: saying that some part of this, I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's almost beyond premeditated. It's like planned in a in
Speaker 1: a in a kind of mass murdery or terrorismy kind
Speaker 1: of way. And so I have no idea. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's, it's it's. I think that the word that
Speaker 1: keeps coming up in my mind a sinister. Right there
Speaker 1: is something that is very sinister about the witness accounts
Speaker 1: that are coming out that seems so deliberate, right. Um.
Speaker 1: And you know, one of the other things that we
Speaker 1: heard is because the gas masks part, to me was
Speaker 1: probably the most like shocking. Um is the fact that
Speaker 1: this is again, folks, just according to the New York Times,
Speaker 1: and we are discussing this, um, just hours after this
Speaker 1: has happened. Um, So what according to the New York Times,
Speaker 1: they're saying that they're, you know, this person arrived to
Speaker 1: the city via like a U haul or something like
Speaker 1: that like that so again it's it's like, who is
Speaker 1: this person that that as of as of this conversation,
Speaker 1: there's still a hunt underway, um, but that there is
Speaker 1: something sinister, go ahead, Yeah, I mean, so that's number
Speaker 1: one is like just the pattern of the pattern of
Speaker 1: this kind of thing, um. And that's why I think
Speaker 1: it's important just to think about the category and not
Speaker 1: that not. I mean, we certainly live with a lot
Speaker 1: of trauma right now, and this is a moment where
Speaker 1: like life expectancy is falling in our country and around
Speaker 1: the world. We've got a crazy motherfucker the other side
Speaker 1: of the world using chemical weapons on people. We've got
Speaker 1: a pandemic coming back. So it's kind of an urgent
Speaker 1: moment to you know, think about just the value of
Speaker 1: life right now, and and and but but I do
Speaker 1: think that again, I just I just want to so
Speaker 1: that that point number one is just there are aspects
Speaker 1: of this that I think make it seem like it
Speaker 1: could fit in anywhere. That's that's just that's just number one.
Speaker 1: Number two. Number two is, of course, we are seeing
Speaker 1: dramatic rise in gun violence right now, like it's out
Speaker 1: of control. Um. And so this comes on the heels
Speaker 1: of you know, a mass shooting in Sacramento, and a
Speaker 1: horribly bloody weekend across the country, including here in Tennessee.
Speaker 1: And so just the out of controlness of gun violence
Speaker 1: right now feels like it just feels unstoppable in a way.
Speaker 1: And so all these idiots who are like everybody just
Speaker 1: needs a gun, like, I just don't think that that's
Speaker 1: going to help. But there's no there's no answer right
Speaker 1: now because more background checks aren't going to help either,
Speaker 1: And so it just feels like this is in a
Speaker 1: way the kind of I guess thought. Number two for
Speaker 1: me is this is a kind of coming home to
Speaker 1: roost of our pandemic response in a way where we had, um,
Speaker 1: you know, millions upon millions upon millions of guns sold,
Speaker 1: right and so the more guns there are, the more
Speaker 1: shootings they are going to be. It's pretty linear. And
Speaker 1: so number two is just this is the reckoning that
Speaker 1: we've seen even in twenty twenty one by data and
Speaker 1: CDC data, there's just a lot more gun violence in
Speaker 1: our country right now, and there are a lot more
Speaker 1: guns in our country in our country, So I think
Speaker 1: number two is just the almost contagious nature of gun
Speaker 1: violence right now is really is really scary no matter
Speaker 1: what this turned out to, because that's number two and
Speaker 1: then number three, as you were talking about before, as
Speaker 1: I've been doing a lot of research on this case
Speaker 1: that's coming up in the Supreme Court that is going
Speaker 1: to basically be the fantasy of Marjorie Taylor Green, which
Speaker 1: is that we open up New York to anybody who
Speaker 1: wants to carry a gun. Do it, we can do it.
Speaker 1: I think it's important to note that gun crime in
Speaker 1: New York, even with all these headlines, is considerably lower
Speaker 1: than it is in just about any other dense urban
Speaker 1: area across this country because of the effectiveness of New
Speaker 1: York gun laws. But part of the reason I think
Speaker 1: we're seeing all these New York Post kind of headlines
Speaker 1: about you know, crime out of control and all that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. I mean, the crime is bad now,
Speaker 1: but it's also studying the state for the argument that
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court is going to make, which is that, Okay,
Speaker 1: everybody in New York needs a gun because crimes so
Speaker 1: out of control. It's setting the stage for the gun
Speaker 1: market that I think they think is going to boom,
Speaker 1: and so something like this kind of fits right into it.
Speaker 1: And so I just think it's hard to see this
Speaker 1: story outside the context of the case that's coming down
Speaker 1: the pike with the Supreme Court, where they're basically just
Speaker 1: going to be saying if everybody in you know, they're
Speaker 1: going to overturn New York's every they're going to overturn
Speaker 1: New York's centuries old gun laws. And so I just
Speaker 1: think that's that's an important part of this. Also. I
Speaker 1: guess I'm just trying to figure out in my head
Speaker 1: right now, like how we got here? Do you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying that. I just it's like I'm I
Speaker 1: feel myself more and more having these momentary out of
Speaker 1: body experiences that you see like in a sitcom or
Speaker 1: a drama where they're just like freeze frame, how did
Speaker 1: we get here? And that's the moment I'm having. You know,
Speaker 1: I remember us speaking Jonathan in twenty twenty. You know,
Speaker 1: we've been doing kids now a long time. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: I remember as having this conversation in twenty twenty and
Speaker 1: you saying, you know guns, and you said it in
Speaker 1: your Boston Review article, guns are flying off the shelf
Speaker 1: alongside hand sanitizer and toilet paper, Like I don't understand,
Speaker 1: like it's a pandemic, it's a virus, Like are you
Speaker 1: going to shoot it? Like? I you know, what the
Speaker 1: hell is happening? And so, you know, I just want
Speaker 1: you to remind us of what in all the conversations
Speaker 1: that you've been having as you write your next book,
Speaker 1: what was the rationale that people had around we have
Speaker 1: a global health pandemic. I don't have hand sanitizer, We're
Speaker 1: being told not to touch shit. I'm washing my cereal boxes,
Speaker 1: don't have toilet paper. But I need a gun? What
Speaker 1: was like? I think that for me as a non
Speaker 1: gun owner, but somebody who has begun actually because of
Speaker 1: the craziness that we've been living in. What you gonna say,
Speaker 1: You're gonna get a gun? No? No, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to get a gun? Are you insane? No? But I understand.
Speaker 1: I begin I have begun to understand people who never
Speaker 1: wanted a gun, but then like, are now thinking about it?
Speaker 1: And so what was the rationale that people have given
Speaker 1: or are giving to you if they're not these readily?
Speaker 1: You know, I've I've been building an artillery in my backyard.
Speaker 1: Like what are they saying? Well, initially, when I when
Speaker 1: I was interviewing people in twenty twenty about this. The
Speaker 1: gun owning crowd was all saying, Um, anarchy is coming
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna have to fight my neighbor for toilet
Speaker 1: paper like that was their first thing was like it
Speaker 1: wasn't shoot the virus. It was there's going to be
Speaker 1: chaos and I need to defend my stuff. Um. That
Speaker 1: was certainly the first round of it. Then it was
Speaker 1: the government is locking us down and government tyranny, and
Speaker 1: so there were all those you know, just to use
Speaker 1: a medical word, there were all those honkeys who stormed
Speaker 1: the capital m in the in states across the country. Um,
Speaker 1: and so uh, we have rail totally. I mean, come on,
Speaker 1: if we're going down, I'm going down with Okay, yay. Um.
Speaker 1: So then there then there was the I need my
Speaker 1: R fifteen to go protest, get Gretchen Whitmire and you know,
Speaker 1: or Wisconsin or whatever. So there was the whole performance
Speaker 1: of that. Then the NRA started marketing guns to black Americans,
Speaker 1: saying the police aren't going to protect you, you need
Speaker 1: to get a gun. So that was a massive boom
Speaker 1: was black gunners, um who because they basically said you
Speaker 1: might have to fight back. Against the cops, and the
Speaker 1: cops won't mess with you view of a gun. So
Speaker 1: we've just gone through different phases. I guarantee you that's
Speaker 1: what's coming next is massive marketing to people in New
Speaker 1: York saying somebody could kill you on the subway, go
Speaker 1: buy a gun. So everything turns to these gun markets
Speaker 1: and it's so predictable, but it's also effective because of
Speaker 1: what they do is they just scare the shit out
Speaker 1: of people against each other. But ultimately, what you're doing
Speaker 1: when you arm society and scare the crap out of
Speaker 1: people against each other as you're sowing the seeds for
Speaker 1: some pretty bad shit, right, some pretty bad fratricytal shit.
Speaker 1: And so so it's a tribal moment. It's a moment
Speaker 1: of mistrust and guns guns fit right into that. It's
Speaker 1: weird because like the minute the pandemic hit my I
Speaker 1: mean I never I suck at this stuff, but one
Speaker 1: of my finance people called and said, you got to
Speaker 1: buy gunstocks. That's going to be the hottest stock and
Speaker 1: the pandemic. Oh wow, And I'm like, yeah, I said,
Speaker 1: do not tell me that, and do not tell anybody
Speaker 1: you told me that. And we never had this conversation,
Speaker 1: but it turned out gunstocks went up nine thousand percent
Speaker 1: or something like that, and so um, you know, it's
Speaker 1: just it's a moment where there's a kind of a
Speaker 1: breakdown of order and there's no answer. I mean, the
Speaker 1: people I was interviewing the minute Ukraine happened, everybody's like,
Speaker 1: this is what happens, We need to get guns. And
Speaker 1: it's true, if you're in Ukraine you probably want a gun,
Speaker 1: Like there are examples where people meet guns. But it's
Speaker 1: just the logic goes much more toward a militarized arsenals
Speaker 1: level of society. And so I just I guess you
Speaker 1: can see. Is that the goal though, Jonathan, you think
Speaker 1: it is the goal of the ground and I know
Speaker 1: because you've talked about this before that the goal of
Speaker 1: the NRA and gun rights you know, groups like them
Speaker 1: is to make money, right, Like they're trying to bolster
Speaker 1: their membership and sell as many guns and sell as
Speaker 1: many bullets and all of the accoutrements thereof that go
Speaker 1: along with this lifestyle, right, But is it is it
Speaker 1: also outside of capitalism, which I know is difficult for
Speaker 1: us to move outside of because it is literally everywhere.
Speaker 1: Is it the goal to have a militarized state? Is
Speaker 1: it the goal to turn neighbor against neighbor and for
Speaker 1: us all to just live in perpetual fear? You know,
Speaker 1: it's funny like the way that the way that guns
Speaker 1: are marketed. Sometimes it's like it's the great equalizer, you know,
Speaker 1: like nobody's going to mess with the over gun. The
Speaker 1: police won't mess with the ever a gun. It will
Speaker 1: level out the playing field. But you know, the government
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. But it turns out the same inequities
Speaker 1: that we have are actually exacerbated when there are a
Speaker 1: lot of guns around. So actually more black people get
Speaker 1: shot by police, and more white people commit guns suicide.
Speaker 1: It's not like it it's not equalizing anything except for
Speaker 1: it's just it's a kind of mistrust enhancer. So you
Speaker 1: can hear my voice. The reason I'm being measured today
Speaker 1: is because I'm scared for New York. Yeah, because people
Speaker 1: are really nervous right now, and I think it's a
Speaker 1: dangerous moment. Because it's just a dangerous moment for New
Speaker 1: York because people are afraid there's this Supreme Court case
Speaker 1: coming that's going to open gun markets in New York.
Speaker 1: And yet New York's a city that depends on population
Speaker 1: density and people getting along with each other and even
Speaker 1: I'll give you a small example, not to call out anybody,
Speaker 1: but I'm on a softball team that plays all over
Speaker 1: the city and for the first time in ten years,
Speaker 1: my team did not. They canceled the game tonight because
Speaker 1: no one wanted to take the subway to the game
Speaker 1: we play in. I think it's like Jamaica or something
Speaker 1: like that. And like it's never been a problem ever,
Speaker 1: It's never been a big deal. But all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: so the minute this kind of fear takes hold, it
Speaker 1: creates this kind of tribalization, white flight, anxiety, and plusit bias.
Speaker 1: All those things go together and then you throw guns
Speaker 1: in and it becomes a self perpetuating cycle. And so
Speaker 1: I'm afraid because like New York actually is a place
Speaker 1: that works, because people kind of I mean, because we
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, let's just be clear, Like you know,
Speaker 1: it's funny because I have always heard, and we've all
Speaker 1: always heard like New York is like by people who
Speaker 1: don't live here, right, that New York is unsafe. New
Speaker 1: York City people they're mean and it's a dangerous place.
Speaker 1: And I while yes, again there are there is absolute violence.
Speaker 1: There's violence everywhere, but for the amount of people that
Speaker 1: live in such a small piece of land like there
Speaker 1: isn't that kind that level of consistent chaos. It isn't
Speaker 1: the wild wild West here. And what happens, you know, again,
Speaker 1: if you just want to make the economic argument right
Speaker 1: for the city, what happens if you so, if your
Speaker 1: team right is actually like a microcosm to how people
Speaker 1: are thinking. If I want to if I need to
Speaker 1: take the subway to school, or I've been sending my
Speaker 1: kids to take it, because there were many kids that
Speaker 1: were on that were on that train in Brooklyn because
Speaker 1: it was high rush hour, and rush hour isn't just
Speaker 1: adults going to work. It is children going to school.
Speaker 1: That is how they get to school in New York City.
Speaker 1: And so if you start to become fearful of any
Speaker 1: of that kind of movement right there, the freedom of movement,
Speaker 1: because you're expecting another horrific incident like this, then you're
Speaker 1: going to flee. And it isn't just like it isn't
Speaker 1: just white flight. It's people deciding that like I'm literally
Speaker 1: daying in my three block radius right where I have
Speaker 1: all the things that I need. I already work from home,
Speaker 1: and so by virtue of that, you have an economy
Speaker 1: that starts to shrink. So isn't there also like an
Speaker 1: economic argument to make here? No, that's kind of the idea, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, the minute businesses start leaving and tax base
Speaker 1: starts leaving, and you know, Wall Street becomes Miami Crypto
Speaker 1: Capitol and stuff like that. And I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: part of the argument of dying of whiteness is like
Speaker 1: red states are already fucked because they have these terrible policies.
Speaker 1: So terrible policies aren't going to influence them very much,
Speaker 1: but it would be horrible for a place like New York.
Speaker 1: So I mean, I I just think that New York
Speaker 1: really needs to unify against this right now. I think
Speaker 1: it's a really important time for New York to come
Speaker 1: together and to and to really think about what makes
Speaker 1: New York great and what makes New York strong. It
Speaker 1: is people who might not agree about many things even
Speaker 1: but but New York works because of the kind of
Speaker 1: layers of New York people inhabiting the same space of
Speaker 1: a you know, shocklingly low level of crime compared to
Speaker 1: other places of very diverse spaces across much of the city.
Speaker 1: And so I would just say that, really, this is
Speaker 1: a moment for New York to come together, and I hope,
Speaker 1: I hope we have leadership to do it, because otherwise
Speaker 1: there's some pretty there's some pretty dark clouds on the
Speaker 1: horizon that I think are going to really be challenging. Well,
Speaker 1: let's talk about that for a second, right, because the
Speaker 1: Governor Huckel, right, came out and literally was in the streets,
Speaker 1: came out, you know, another strongly worded statement. This ends, now,
Speaker 1: this stops. Now, this isn't who New York is. Blah
Speaker 1: blah blah. You have Mayor Eric Adams, who is in
Speaker 1: the virtual space because he has contracted COVID and so
Speaker 1: is not like out in the streets today. But he
Speaker 1: is a proponent of we need more cops. As a
Speaker 1: former cop, he is the one that is saying, well,
Speaker 1: you know, we need to put more cops on the
Speaker 1: subway platforms. And those who remember New York in the
Speaker 1: days of stop and frisk and consistent harassment of black
Speaker 1: and brown men in particular, are saying, what are you
Speaker 1: talking about you need more cops and you need more money.
Speaker 1: You have one of the largest police budgets in the country,
Speaker 1: So like, what, what do you think that the pushback
Speaker 1: should be to those that are going to use this
Speaker 1: moment of fear and rightful fear to say we need
Speaker 1: more police, and we need and we need and they
Speaker 1: need more money. I'm going to say something very unpopular now, God,
Speaker 1: I think we need to come together and figure out
Speaker 1: a common narrative for public safety. I think there needs
Speaker 1: to be a model of what good and respectful policing
Speaker 1: is right now. I don't think that the question of
Speaker 1: I mean, because the thing is if there, if they're
Speaker 1: the crime narrative serves a purpose which is an ant
Speaker 1: it's a it's a racist purpose, and it's an anti
Speaker 1: New York purpose. Right the crime narrative is, therefore everybody
Speaker 1: needs a gun, and therefore all you corporations move down
Speaker 1: to Miami and let just let those guys have their
Speaker 1: own crazy crime infested area. Like nobody nobody is served
Speaker 1: by by having shooting or death or harassment or anything
Speaker 1: like that. So I think there needs to be a
Speaker 1: kind of unity moment right now where where we kind
Speaker 1: of talk really honestly about what public safety means. Um,
Speaker 1: I think that the question of more or less police,
Speaker 1: this is just me saying this is it. It's almost
Speaker 1: in this context. I understand what you're saying about there,
Speaker 1: believe me. But I think in this context it's a
Speaker 1: hard it's a dangerous conversation to be having about more
Speaker 1: or less police because less police is going to fit
Speaker 1: into the more guns narrative. That's going to be almost
Speaker 1: a given. I can tell you that's what happened in
Speaker 1: every place I've studied. Kansas City used to be a
Speaker 1: very divers city. The minute they happened, it was immediately
Speaker 1: white flight, lower tax base, more guns, wall off certain areas.
Speaker 1: Like I just don't think anybody wins in that narrative.
Speaker 1: And so I think it's a time to get together
Speaker 1: and say what is public safety and how can we
Speaker 1: join across divides to try to do it in a
Speaker 1: way that is different in a way, And so I think,
Speaker 1: you know, I just I think that I think again,
Speaker 1: I just I'm wary of the more or less police
Speaker 1: argument right now. Not to say there's not history right now,
Speaker 1: but I just think that if we're having that debate,
Speaker 1: it just creates that, it creates the opening for I mean,
Speaker 1: there's just there're about to be a lot more guns
Speaker 1: in New York. And and and so I think without communities
Speaker 1: working together across divides, I think New York is really
Speaker 1: going to be in for a lot of trouble. And
Speaker 1: so I think, I mean, I like and here's the
Speaker 1: thing is that, no, I get it right, um And
Speaker 1: and I'm always on the fence of when is the
Speaker 1: right time to have conversations that make people uncomfortable and
Speaker 1: when is the right time for us to you know, say, like,
Speaker 1: for instance, there's a manhunt right now, Why why is
Speaker 1: why is there? What are one of the reasons for
Speaker 1: the manhunt? And again we're we're recording this, you know,
Speaker 1: just hours after the shooting has taken place in Brooklyn,
Speaker 1: and so the shooter has not been apprehended at this time.
Speaker 1: But the cameras were not working or broken in the subway. Right.
Speaker 1: That goes back to infrastructure. Right, that goes back to
Speaker 1: how like that isn't That doesn't have anything to do
Speaker 1: with how many officers shod should not be on a
Speaker 1: platform or in a train car. That has everything to
Speaker 1: do with the basic functioning of a system if somebody
Speaker 1: was robbed or raped or beaten or what have you, like,
Speaker 1: there's no there is no surveillance that is happening, like
Speaker 1: do you know what I'm saying? Like? And the question
Speaker 1: really it's so hard to There's two things I'm gonna
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go super meta on you about that point, right,
Speaker 1: because on one hand, it do you is the you
Speaker 1: beyond this case? Do you want more surveillance? That's question
Speaker 1: number one, which is a complicated question. And then question
Speaker 1: number two is why why is infrastructure failing? And so
Speaker 1: I'm just going to go super meta. What pays for infrastructure? Right?
Speaker 1: Infrastructure is paid by tax income? And why is New
Speaker 1: York struggling with tax income? Well, there are a lot
Speaker 1: of reasons, but one is because the twenty seventeen GOP
Speaker 1: tax bill made it impossible. It made it really costly
Speaker 1: for businesses to do I mean, the corporations and wealthy
Speaker 1: people suck in many ways, but they also pay for
Speaker 1: a lot of the tax foundation of New York. And
Speaker 1: the twenty seventeen tax bill, for example, made it really
Speaker 1: costly for businesses to stay and do business in New York.
Speaker 1: And so all of a sudden they all started going
Speaker 1: to Florida and Dallas and all these other kind of places,
Speaker 1: and so part of the infrastructure issue, of course, it's
Speaker 1: structural racism, one hundred percent, But it's also that just
Speaker 1: New York has a huge financial deficit based on decisions
Speaker 1: that have been made that have nothing to do with
Speaker 1: this situation. I don't know if that impacted the camera
Speaker 1: and the subway car, but I would say that if
Speaker 1: you're going to invest in infrastructure, you need more tax
Speaker 1: income in a way. And so it's it's hard, right,
Speaker 1: it's it's a hard time to be thinking. But I
Speaker 1: do I do think that we're seeing the downstream implications
Speaker 1: of some I mean, again, there's always been you know,
Speaker 1: we had the seventies and Guardian Angels and Son of Sam.
Speaker 1: Like I feel like we're in New York. We've been
Speaker 1: there before. But I would say that New York that
Speaker 1: the infrastructure question is an important part of this. I
Speaker 1: totally agree. But but you have to think, like why
Speaker 1: why isn't there money for infrastructure, And certainly it's that
Speaker 1: it goes to certain parts of the city not others,
Speaker 1: and all these kind of things. But I also think
Speaker 1: that New York. I mean independent of that subway car.
Speaker 1: The Quney system is in huge financial problem right now.
Speaker 1: Education systems, higher education systems that serve minoritized communities and
Speaker 1: let them get degrees that then let them make money
Speaker 1: and become taxpayers themselves, and things like that. Like all
Speaker 1: these things are happening, and so the city, the financial
Speaker 1: model of the city is it's just a it's a
Speaker 1: hard moment, and it's a hard moment for a lot
Speaker 1: of reasons. But one is that there were a lot
Speaker 1: of upstream decisions that really impacted the tax base of
Speaker 1: New York and just made it a lot cheaper for
Speaker 1: the high tax paying entities to leave the state to
Speaker 1: go to Dallas, US or Nashville. I mean, Nashville is
Speaker 1: a is a is a massive you know, there's our
Speaker 1: whole skyline is you know, cranes of businesses moving from
Speaker 1: New York and stuff like that. And so I think,
Speaker 1: you know, New York, New York. We need a new
Speaker 1: unity moment in New York that encompasses this stuff. We
Speaker 1: need to kind of redefine New York. And it's got
Speaker 1: to be playing on the strength of New York and
Speaker 1: the strength of New York is diversity and a lot
Speaker 1: of people working towards the same. Yeah, Jonathan, you know,
Speaker 1: I want to say that when we began our regular
Speaker 1: conversations back in twenty twenty, I thought that the worst
Speaker 1: of it was going to be how do we preserve
Speaker 1: our mental and emotional wherewithal to be able to power
Speaker 1: through COVID, a global health pandemic that just felt like
Speaker 1: it hit out of nowhere. And now here we are
Speaker 1: two years later, and I feel more I don't even
Speaker 1: know how it's possible to feel more more unsafe and
Speaker 1: more uneasy than I did in April twenty twenty that
Speaker 1: I'm feeling in April twenty twenty two, And that to
Speaker 1: me again is just absolutely wild. I think absolutely wild,
Speaker 1: enjoy I mean, like April twenty twenty, we didn't know
Speaker 1: how good we had it. We had the alpha variant,
Speaker 1: you know that, we didn't have chemical warfare in Russia
Speaker 1: or Ukraine. Um So, anyway, the thing is we're Humanity
Speaker 1: is cyclical, um so um no again, I again, I
Speaker 1: just go back to what I said before, which is
Speaker 1: I think there's an urgent need for New York to
Speaker 1: have a unity moment right now and hopefully this will
Speaker 1: be that'll be the result of this, because there really
Speaker 1: is a need to bond together because right now, collaboration
Speaker 1: and cooperation is what makes strength and without that year
Speaker 1: privy to all these all these forces, you know, otherwise
Speaker 1: you need like Batman or something like. It's like just
Speaker 1: a savior. And so right now unity is is really
Speaker 1: our our best, our best resource. Jonathan, thank you so much,
Speaker 1: as always one for your work that you continue to
Speaker 1: do and the messages that you continue to spread, the
Speaker 1: classes that you're teaching, the work um you know that
Speaker 1: you're producing because it's it's so greatly needed, and just
Speaker 1: you know, always thankful for the time that you have
Speaker 1: been making over the last two years too. I mean,
Speaker 1: we're making sense of a really hard moment and so
Speaker 1: I hopefully you and I and the listeners to this show,
Speaker 1: you know, we're all kind of going through this together.
Speaker 1: This is very much a real time kind of deal,
Speaker 1: and so you know we'll get through. But it's just
Speaker 1: the problems. I mean, I guess we're recognizing the problems
Speaker 1: are much more complicated than we than we expected. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it's true. Thank you, all right, take everybody? That is
Speaker 1: it for me? Today here on Woke a f as
Speaker 1: always Power to the people and to all the people. Power,
Speaker 1: Get woke and stay woke as fuck.