WEBVTT - Critical Mass 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.560 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wikay a daily with 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:18.680 Meet your Girl Danielle. Recording from the Brooklyn Bunker where frankly, 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:21.880 I'm just going to end up sucking staying right the folks. 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:27.080 I come to you just hours after the shooting, the 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:32.680 mass shooting that took place in Brooklyn, and you know, 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:38.880 my emotions, as our many New Yorkers, are very raw. 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:45.360 And today I will get into, you know, a longer 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:50.600 in depth conversation with our friend doctor Jonathan Metzel to 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:54.040 talk about what is at stake in an upcoming Supreme 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:59.720 Court UH case that is going to be ruling UH 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:05.680 in New York about whether or not local governance over 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:12.360 gun regulation impedes upon the Second Amendment, and if, like 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:18.560 the First Amendment, there is no nuance, right. I mean, 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.240 with the First Amendment, we have nuance as it pertains 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:25.360 to acts of violence, as it pertains to hate speech. Right. 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:31.119 But what proponents right, supporters of the Second Amendment believe 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:34.320 that there should be no infringement whatsoever right their rights, 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:39.600 their liberty. And after yet another mass shooting that for 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:43.080 me just felt way too close to home in the 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:50.440 borough that I live in, I can't imagine this city 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:58.280 that is populated with eight million plus people to have 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:04.760 every one be able to have a gun and concealed 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:09.440 at that. I take the subway right, as most fucking 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:13.239 New Yorkers do on a regular basis. And yeah, we're 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:15.840 all used to seeing a lot of shit on subways, 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:22.200 not the terror that people witnessed today, Not the terror 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:27.880 of you know, a high time of commute and traffic 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:32.800 when children are on the subway, right, Like, for people 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.760 who don't live in cities, you have to understand that, like, 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:41.600 you know, rush hour traffic isn't just about people trying 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:48.440 to get adults going back and forth to work in cities, right, 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:52.520 it is about also the subways being filled with kids 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:56.120 that are taking the train to school. And you know, 0:02:56.360 --> 0:03:00.200 I'll tell you that on a personal note. You know, 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:04.200 I knew somebody whose young son was on the train, 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:10.320 right and who it was shaken and terrified and thank god. Okay, 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:14.840 but like, are we supposed to just allow this kind 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:18.680 of terror to be normal? Like have we gotten to 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:25.280 a place where just you know, we're all just living 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:29.560 in this perpetual state of dread and panic and anxiety, 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:33.000 and that the only way to assuage that is to 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:36.720 allow everyone to be able to just walk around locked 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:40.720 and loaded. Like, I again, how the fuck does that 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:48.640 make sense? It really doesn't. And so I sit here today, 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:55.880 you know, reeling, reeling from just my emotional state of 0:03:55.960 --> 0:04:02.400 being that there is no place to be safe in 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:06.440 this country. You know, let alone, Let me not, you know, 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:12.040 let alone adding in race and orientation and gender identity 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.200 and class and all of these things like let alone 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.919 adding in all of those other layers that make American 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:24.440 society in general unsafe, right for black people, people of color, 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:30.320 right for black trans women, for you know, queer people, right, 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:36.000 like for immigrants and folks that are undocumented. Like you know, 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:41.320 my mother, my sister right now is traveling. She's on holiday. 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:45.839 And you know, my mother is always like, you know, 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:48.880 very nervous when my sister and I are traveling, even 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:52.240 though my sister lives abroad, but whenever we're like traveling 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:55.080 more and moving outside of our space, she gets really nervous. 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:58.200 And I said to my mother, I was just like, 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:00.919 where do you think is more are unsafe than the 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:05.520 United States? Like, let's just be really honest. We're the 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:14.279 only you know, industrialized fucking nation that has regular mass shootings. Right, 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:18.640 We're the only place where it is common, right for 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.720 there to be a shooting in a grocery store, a 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:26.760 movie theater, a synagogue, a mosque, a church. Right. We're 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:30.680 the only country that it is normal for your kids 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:36.760 to learn fire drills, but more importantly, active shooter drills. Right, 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:42.360 We're the only country that is like this. So when 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:44.880 you take those things into account, and all of the 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:48.880 ways in which these people who are proponents of the 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:56.920 Second Amendment have have had their their own righteousness, their 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:02.000 liberty infringe on everyone else's safety, and just like we've 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:06.440 had to contort and just deal with that. But in 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:09.560 a city of eight million people, when you're talking about 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:16.720 lifting a weapons ban that is in place because of 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:20.600 just how densely populated we are, you're not only posing 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:25.120 a threat to you know, mind and spirit and all 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:28.080 of these things. You're posting an economic threat, which I 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:31.640 will get into in my conversation with Jonathan, because for 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.760 those callous people that care about nothing more than money, 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:39.000 what happens when people no longer feel safe to take 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:42.320 the subway to go to work, and to send their 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:44.719 kids to school, and to go shopping and all of 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:47.920 those things guess what that we saw it with COVID. 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:49.919 They pack up their ship and those that have the 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:55.400 means and the privilege of mobility do so right, which 0:06:55.520 --> 0:07:02.120 leaves a city filled with what exactly you know, not 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:09.159 the tax base that has people give a fuck? I 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:13.800 you know, it's it's the it's the regression and the 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:19.480 devolving that is become our norm that to me is 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:24.680 scaring the shit out of me on a regular basis. Today, Friends, 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:28.920 I am absolutely shook, and I am shook in a 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:36.520 way that I, you know, realize. The only time that 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:44.480 we didn't have mass shooting since Columbine was quarantine. So 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:51.720 we didn't remove guns because they oversold right alongside toilet 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:55.720 paper and hand sanitizer in twenty twenty, but we removed 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:58.480 the masses. So if there are no masses, you can't 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:05.360 have a mass shooting. People were indoors. What does that 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:10.560 fucking tell you about our society and how absolutely insane 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:16.920 that is. I don't know about you, but, like I, 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.400 freedom to me doesn't look like living a life filled 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:24.160 with fear, dread, and terror. That's not what freedom looks 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:29.440 like to me. And so how do we figure out 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:35.200 in this heightened state of just God Jesus, everything being bad. 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.800 How do we find our way out? How do we 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:43.640 find like, what does the other side of this even 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:48.080 look like? Because these days, I'm starting to find myself 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:51.360 at a loss for words, which is terrible because my 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:56.360 job is words. But I'm running out of how to 0:08:56.600 --> 0:09:02.720 make sense out of absolute fucking nonsense, because where we 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:09.760 are right now in America is nonsensical. I you know, 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:15.400 I see this shooting. We had a shooting in Sacramento, 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.000 we had a shooting in New York, with a shooting 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:22.600 in Chicago, Like it's just, you know, the one thing 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:31.720 that came back once everything opened up, Ware's shootings. I 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:34.800 don't know where we go from here, but I know 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.000 that we have to go someplace. We have to do 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:41.360 something right. And with the Supreme Court decision coming down 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:45.959 in just the handful of weeks, yeah, I'm going to 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:50.920 be inside this bunker longer than I had anticipated or wanted. 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:56.480 Coming up next, friends, my conversation with our in house doctor, 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:06.520 doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks. As always, I am always excited 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:10.839 to have our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel join 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:14.360 us on wikaf to talk about a myriad of things, 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:18.959 and you know, sometimes, Jonathan, I think that we're going 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:22.880 to get on here and have like a conversation that's good, 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.679 that we're going to talk about, Oh, I don't know, 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:30.480 things that don't feel so dire and don't feel like 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.920 our entire lives depend on it. But today is not 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:39.120 that day. Yesterday, in New York, as many people know, 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:46.240 there was a mass shooting on a subway in Brooklyn, 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:51.200 New York, and it was a little too close to home. 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:54.680 Not in an area that I live in, but in 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:56.959 the borough that I live in, and it's a little 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.800 too close to home, given as how I just started 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:06.800 going back on the subway following you know, the omicron spike. Jonathan, Like, 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:11.880 I know that right now you're at Vanderbilt and so 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:17.760 you're not in New York. But when news broke, you know, what, 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:21.440 how are you feeling? What was going through you know, 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:27.120 your mind? I think a couple of things. At first, 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:31.120 we're having this conversation before all the details are out, 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:34.320 and so I would say that, of course, this is horrific. 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:36.600 This is the kind of thing I study. I've seen 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:40.160 it up close many times. I don't know what the 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:43.520 details are going to be because as we record this conversation, 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:48.560 they're just are there just are some really weird, you 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.120 know parts of this. You know, this guy had a 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:55.280 bag of smoke bombs and firecrackers, he put on a mask. 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.559 You know, it's hard to know what category at this 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:02.520 moment of this conversation to put this in. Is it 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:05.440 a mass shooting, is it an act of terrorism? Is 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.760 it some other kind of dispute? And I don't know. 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.880 It's like usually with a mass shooting, it's like a 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:14.120 white guy with an a R fifteen or something like that, 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:16.199 and that doesn't seem to be the case here. Again, 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:18.920 we were We're in a vacuum, and so I guess 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:22.560 the first point to kind of make is that we 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.800 don't know what category this is. I still don't know. 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:29.360 Everybody's kind of using it as a warshock test, all 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:31.880 the Marjorie Taylor Greens of the world. They're talking about 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:34.679 how this would never have happened if every single person 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:37.000 had a gun in their underpants and stuff like that, 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:40.920 and everybody on the subway had a gun, and so 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:44.360 the gun crowd is making this a pro gun thing. 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:47.959 Other people, I guess like me, are saying this is 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:51.040 actually why you need fewer guns and search your gun laws. 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:56.320 Because as horrible as this is, it happened. The part 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:58.600 of what it is, it's rare, right, It happens a 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:02.000 lot more frequently in another places. And so I just 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:05.000 I think that the question of what this is is 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:08.320 still TBD. And and I say that with a word 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:11.080 of caution, because again, when something like this happens, we 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.880 put it into these categories. But until we know a 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:15.880 little bit more about the case and catch the guy, 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.600 I'm not quite sure, to be honest, how to how 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:23.480 to think about this one? There's something cleared. Let me 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:27.160 let me ask you this because I, you know I 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:31.760 and I want to appreciate you for kind of you know, 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:36.520 pulling us back from making any snap you know, decisions 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:40.400 or commentary as this is unfolding. But you know, as 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:43.520 you're working through the list of and and as as 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:47.760 the governor and you know, the country is working through 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:51.920 you know what was this? Um? Was it terrorism? Was 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:54.880 it a mass shooting? Was it you know, was it premeditated? 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:59.079 Where you know what all of these pieces were. I guess, 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.880 like where I find myself right now is does it 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:05.440 fucking matter? Like does it like in all like in 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:09.600 all honesty like doesn't matter. I think that the fact 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:14.600 that things like this can happen and it is the 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:17.760 norm for it to happen in the United States, not 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:20.680 the norm for it to happen frankly in New York 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:26.760 City to your point, because of the regulations that we have. Yes, 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:28.800 people get shot in New York all the time, but 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:31.840 I'm going to be honest with you, it is usually targeted. 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:36.920 It's usually like gang related. It isn't, you know, just 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:42.600 a you know, mass situation. And so I wonder does 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:47.800 categorizing it matter, Like is it is it just a 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.520 way for us as humans to put something in a 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.240 box so that we can better understand and deal with it. 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:56.800 But I'm finding that the way that we continue to 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:01.680 process what has become the norm in America is part 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:06.320 of the fucking problem. Well, I think there are there 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:08.920 are three parts to that answer, I guess, and they're 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:13.360 all probably not complimentary. I mean number one is again 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:15.680 like this guy had a gas mask and apparently a 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:20.480 favorite MPTA vest. Like there's something about this that just 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:23.800 seems I mean, it's it's almost beyond premeditated. There's something 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:26.760 there's something that just doesn't for me quite add up 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:30.880 about this story and then you know, the the there's something, 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:32.880 there's going to be some weird twist to this. I 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:36.400 have no knowledge at all. I'm I'm I'll be back 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.720 in Brooklyn tomorrow, but I don't know. But I'm just 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:43.080 saying that some part of this, I mean, it's it's 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:47.360 it's almost beyond premeditated. It's like planned in a in 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:51.120 a in a kind of mass murdery or terrorismy kind 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:53.440 of way. And so I have no idea. I mean, 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:56.680 it's it's, it's it's. I think that the word that 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:00.720 keeps coming up in my mind a sinister. Right there 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:05.520 is something that is very sinister about the witness accounts 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:11.320 that are coming out that seems so deliberate, right. Um. 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:14.320 And you know, one of the other things that we 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:17.760 heard is because the gas masks part, to me was 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:23.440 probably the most like shocking. Um is the fact that 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:26.680 this is again, folks, just according to the New York Times, 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:30.760 and we are discussing this, um, just hours after this 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:35.160 has happened. Um, So what according to the New York Times, 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:39.240 they're saying that they're, you know, this person arrived to 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:41.840 the city via like a U haul or something like 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:45.960 that like that so again it's it's like, who is 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.920 this person that that as of as of this conversation, 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:55.440 there's still a hunt underway, um, but that there is 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:59.240 something sinister, go ahead, Yeah, I mean, so that's number 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:04.320 one is like just the pattern of the pattern of 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.479 this kind of thing, um. And that's why I think 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.000 it's important just to think about the category and not 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:12.280 that not. I mean, we certainly live with a lot 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:15.200 of trauma right now, and this is a moment where 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:19.159 like life expectancy is falling in our country and around 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.840 the world. We've got a crazy motherfucker the other side 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.720 of the world using chemical weapons on people. We've got 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:28.520 a pandemic coming back. So it's kind of an urgent 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:32.840 moment to you know, think about just the value of 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:36.880 life right now, and and and but but I do 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:40.720 think that again, I just I just want to so 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.320 that that point number one is just there are aspects 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:45.480 of this that I think make it seem like it 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:48.280 could fit in anywhere. That's that's just that's just number one. 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:53.879 Number two. Number two is, of course, we are seeing 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:57.800 dramatic rise in gun violence right now, like it's out 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:01.360 of control. Um. And so this comes on the heels 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:05.919 of you know, a mass shooting in Sacramento, and a 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:10.840 horribly bloody weekend across the country, including here in Tennessee. 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:15.320 And so just the out of controlness of gun violence 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:20.200 right now feels like it just feels unstoppable in a way. 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:22.879 And so all these idiots who are like everybody just 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:25.600 needs a gun, like, I just don't think that that's 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:28.280 going to help. But there's no there's no answer right 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:30.560 now because more background checks aren't going to help either, 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:33.520 And so it just feels like this is in a 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:37.000 way the kind of I guess thought. Number two for 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:39.359 me is this is a kind of coming home to 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:44.359 roost of our pandemic response in a way where we had, um, 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:50.440 you know, millions upon millions upon millions of guns sold, 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:52.560 right and so the more guns there are, the more 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:55.320 shootings they are going to be. It's pretty linear. And 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:58.040 so number two is just this is the reckoning that 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.119 we've seen even in twenty twenty one by data and 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:03.560 CDC data, there's just a lot more gun violence in 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:05.719 our country right now, and there are a lot more 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:08.959 guns in our country in our country, So I think 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:13.640 number two is just the almost contagious nature of gun 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:17.480 violence right now is really is really scary no matter 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.240 what this turned out to, because that's number two and 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:22.399 then number three, as you were talking about before, as 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:24.320 I've been doing a lot of research on this case 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.199 that's coming up in the Supreme Court that is going 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:30.680 to basically be the fantasy of Marjorie Taylor Green, which 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:32.920 is that we open up New York to anybody who 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:36.480 wants to carry a gun. Do it, we can do it. 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.119 I think it's important to note that gun crime in 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:43.399 New York, even with all these headlines, is considerably lower 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:45.760 than it is in just about any other dense urban 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:48.399 area across this country because of the effectiveness of New 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:50.760 York gun laws. But part of the reason I think 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:53.040 we're seeing all these New York Post kind of headlines 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:55.080 about you know, crime out of control and all that 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:57.600 kind of stuff. I mean, the crime is bad now, 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.080 but it's also studying the state for the argument that 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:03.960 the Supreme Court is going to make, which is that, Okay, 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:05.920 everybody in New York needs a gun because crimes so 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:08.800 out of control. It's setting the stage for the gun 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:10.639 market that I think they think is going to boom, 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:12.720 and so something like this kind of fits right into it. 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.480 And so I just think it's hard to see this 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:19.040 story outside the context of the case that's coming down 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:22.119 the pike with the Supreme Court, where they're basically just 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:24.640 going to be saying if everybody in you know, they're 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:28.560 going to overturn New York's every they're going to overturn 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:31.560 New York's centuries old gun laws. And so I just 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:36.119 think that's that's an important part of this. Also. I 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:38.440 guess I'm just trying to figure out in my head 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:42.199 right now, like how we got here? Do you know 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:45.480 what I'm saying that. I just it's like I'm I 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:49.879 feel myself more and more having these momentary out of 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:54.399 body experiences that you see like in a sitcom or 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:57.400 a drama where they're just like freeze frame, how did 0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:01.719 we get here? And that's the moment I'm having. You know, 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:07.760 I remember us speaking Jonathan in twenty twenty. You know, 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:12.640 we've been doing kids now a long time. Yeah, right, 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:16.359 I remember as having this conversation in twenty twenty and 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:19.560 you saying, you know guns, and you said it in 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:23.159 your Boston Review article, guns are flying off the shelf 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:28.920 alongside hand sanitizer and toilet paper, Like I don't understand, 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.040 like it's a pandemic, it's a virus, Like are you 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:33.320 going to shoot it? Like? I you know, what the 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:35.840 hell is happening? And so, you know, I just want 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:39.840 you to remind us of what in all the conversations 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:42.680 that you've been having as you write your next book, 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:50.480 what was the rationale that people had around we have 0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:54.640 a global health pandemic. I don't have hand sanitizer, We're 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:58.159 being told not to touch shit. I'm washing my cereal boxes, 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:02.280 don't have toilet paper. But I need a gun? What 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:06.080 was like? I think that for me as a non 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:10.800 gun owner, but somebody who has begun actually because of 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:15.800 the craziness that we've been living in. What you gonna say, 0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:17.879 You're gonna get a gun? No? No, I'm not going 0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:21.040 to get a gun? Are you insane? No? But I understand. 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:25.399 I begin I have begun to understand people who never 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:29.280 wanted a gun, but then like, are now thinking about it? 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:32.719 And so what was the rationale that people have given 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:36.640 or are giving to you if they're not these readily? 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:40.600 You know, I've I've been building an artillery in my backyard. 0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:46.080 Like what are they saying? Well, initially, when I when 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:49.000 I was interviewing people in twenty twenty about this. The 0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:54.000 gun owning crowd was all saying, Um, anarchy is coming 0:22:54.040 --> 0:22:56.199 and I'm gonna have to fight my neighbor for toilet 0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:58.600 paper like that was their first thing was like it 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:01.239 wasn't shoot the virus. It was there's going to be 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:04.880 chaos and I need to defend my stuff. Um. That 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:08.000 was certainly the first round of it. Then it was 0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:11.439 the government is locking us down and government tyranny, and 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:14.280 so there were all those you know, just to use 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:16.680 a medical word, there were all those honkeys who stormed 0:23:16.720 --> 0:23:22.840 the capital m in the in states across the country. Um, 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:29.359 and so uh, we have rail totally. I mean, come on, 0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:35.280 if we're going down, I'm going down with Okay, yay. Um. 0:23:35.320 --> 0:23:37.520 So then there then there was the I need my 0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:42.800 R fifteen to go protest, get Gretchen Whitmire and you know, 0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:46.200 or Wisconsin or whatever. So there was the whole performance 0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:50.720 of that. Then the NRA started marketing guns to black Americans, 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:54.080 saying the police aren't going to protect you, you need 0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:56.560 to get a gun. So that was a massive boom 0:23:56.680 --> 0:24:00.320 was black gunners, um who because they basically said you 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:01.919 might have to fight back. Against the cops, and the 0:24:01.920 --> 0:24:04.600 cops won't mess with you view of a gun. So 0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:07.080 we've just gone through different phases. I guarantee you that's 0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:10.320 what's coming next is massive marketing to people in New 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:13.199 York saying somebody could kill you on the subway, go 0:24:13.280 --> 0:24:16.040 buy a gun. So everything turns to these gun markets 0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:20.320 and it's so predictable, but it's also effective because of 0:24:20.320 --> 0:24:21.879 what they do is they just scare the shit out 0:24:21.920 --> 0:24:25.359 of people against each other. But ultimately, what you're doing 0:24:25.400 --> 0:24:27.600 when you arm society and scare the crap out of 0:24:27.600 --> 0:24:29.919 people against each other as you're sowing the seeds for 0:24:31.720 --> 0:24:38.160 some pretty bad shit, right, some pretty bad fratricytal shit. 0:24:38.840 --> 0:24:43.920 And so so it's a tribal moment. It's a moment 0:24:43.960 --> 0:24:46.959 of mistrust and guns guns fit right into that. It's 0:24:47.040 --> 0:24:51.639 weird because like the minute the pandemic hit my I 0:24:51.680 --> 0:24:54.800 mean I never I suck at this stuff, but one 0:24:54.840 --> 0:24:57.680 of my finance people called and said, you got to 0:24:57.680 --> 0:25:00.080 buy gunstocks. That's going to be the hottest stock and 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:03.520 the pandemic. Oh wow, And I'm like, yeah, I said, 0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:06.240 do not tell me that, and do not tell anybody 0:25:06.280 --> 0:25:08.600 you told me that. And we never had this conversation, 0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:12.760 but it turned out gunstocks went up nine thousand percent 0:25:12.920 --> 0:25:18.520 or something like that, and so um, you know, it's 0:25:18.520 --> 0:25:20.280 just it's a moment where there's a kind of a 0:25:20.280 --> 0:25:23.800 breakdown of order and there's no answer. I mean, the 0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:26.520 people I was interviewing the minute Ukraine happened, everybody's like, 0:25:26.520 --> 0:25:29.040 this is what happens, We need to get guns. And 0:25:29.080 --> 0:25:31.080 it's true, if you're in Ukraine you probably want a gun, 0:25:31.119 --> 0:25:33.880 Like there are examples where people meet guns. But it's 0:25:33.880 --> 0:25:39.360 just the logic goes much more toward a militarized arsenals 0:25:39.440 --> 0:25:42.199 level of society. And so I just I guess you 0:25:42.240 --> 0:25:45.480 can see. Is that the goal though, Jonathan, you think 0:25:45.920 --> 0:25:48.560 it is the goal of the ground and I know 0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:51.200 because you've talked about this before that the goal of 0:25:51.880 --> 0:25:56.399 the NRA and gun rights you know, groups like them 0:25:56.680 --> 0:25:59.800 is to make money, right, Like they're trying to bolster 0:25:59.880 --> 0:26:03.640 their membership and sell as many guns and sell as 0:26:03.680 --> 0:26:08.320 many bullets and all of the accoutrements thereof that go 0:26:08.359 --> 0:26:13.119 along with this lifestyle, right, But is it is it 0:26:13.280 --> 0:26:16.720 also outside of capitalism, which I know is difficult for 0:26:16.800 --> 0:26:20.119 us to move outside of because it is literally everywhere. 0:26:21.320 --> 0:26:26.399 Is it the goal to have a militarized state? Is 0:26:26.440 --> 0:26:29.880 it the goal to turn neighbor against neighbor and for 0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:34.359 us all to just live in perpetual fear? You know, 0:26:34.400 --> 0:26:38.200 it's funny like the way that the way that guns 0:26:38.200 --> 0:26:41.199 are marketed. Sometimes it's like it's the great equalizer, you know, 0:26:41.359 --> 0:26:45.520 like nobody's going to mess with the over gun. The 0:26:45.520 --> 0:26:46.800