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Speaker 1: Also media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to let you know this is a compilation episode. So

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Speaker 1: every episode of the week that just happened is here

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Speaker 1: in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for

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Speaker 1: you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.

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Speaker 1: If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: Everyone, welcome to the podcast. It's me James, and I'm

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Speaker 3: joined today by Moe who is an attorney, educator and aberlation.

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Speaker 3: It's've been on the show before. We've very much enjoyed

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Speaker 3: the contributions. We're here today to talk about the recent

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Speaker 3: Supreme Court not decision right, but it's Supreme Court declining

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Speaker 3: to hear a case. It's been reported a little bit.

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Speaker 3: Perhaps I think the importance of it may have been overstated,

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Speaker 3: and it's going to help us understand that How are

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Speaker 3: you doing today.

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Speaker 4: Mo, I'm doing all right. How are you doing?

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Speaker 3: I'm doing well. It's nice day. Went for a run

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Speaker 3: this morning, saw some flowers, picked some fennel. That was nice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very nice.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, wild Fannel if you didn't sell in California now

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Speaker 3: so time. Just a little tip from me, don't get

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Speaker 3: it at the height that dog's pe. You want to

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Speaker 3: go above that.

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Speaker 4: It's a pro tip.

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Speaker 3: You can't say that. We don't fill this podcast with

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Speaker 3: a little easter eggs. Talking of little easter eggs, let's

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Speaker 3: let's get into the things that are buried within this.

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Speaker 3: What happened was the Supreme Court declined to hear a case.

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Speaker 3: Is that right?

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 4: So the case that the Supreme Court declined to hear

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Speaker 4: is McKesson the dough. This is a case that they

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Speaker 4: have declined to hear eight times, and it keeps going

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Speaker 4: back up and down from I think the Middle District

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Speaker 4: of Louisiana to the Fifth Circuit all the way up

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Speaker 4: to the Supreme Court. And it's a case that involves

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Speaker 4: the First Amendment. And the way that it has been reported,

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Speaker 4: I think, or at least the way that it has

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Speaker 4: been received, particularly by communities of people who do engage

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Speaker 4: in a lot of First Amendment protected activity, has been

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Speaker 4: with a certain amount of panic that the Supreme Court

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Speaker 4: saying we're not going to hear this case, We're going

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Speaker 4: to kick it back down to the Fifth Circuit. We're

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Speaker 4: going to kick it back down to the district court.

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Speaker 4: Is you know, a harbinger of terrible things to come

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Speaker 4: for the right to protest and for the kinds of

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Speaker 4: liability that you might be exposed to if you are

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Speaker 4: engaging in protest, And there is some truth to that.

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Speaker 4: It is I would say often dangerous to engage in

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Speaker 4: acts of dissent. But I think that there's some real

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Speaker 4: misapprehension of what's going on with this particular case, and

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Speaker 4: so I thought it was worth having a conversation with

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Speaker 4: you to try to clarify a little bit about what's

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Speaker 4: going on here, what the risks are associated specifically with

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Speaker 4: this case, and what the risks actually are on the

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Speaker 4: ground with respect to protest, and also to talk to

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Speaker 4: you about some of the resources that are available.

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Speaker 2: To protect yourself.

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Speaker 3: Wonderful.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So I guess to give you a little roadmap.

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Speaker 4: I think I'll start by talking to you about what

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Speaker 4: is actually the law on the ground at this point

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Speaker 4: with respect to the First Amendment and rights to protest? Yes,

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Speaker 4: have those rights actually been meaningfully altered by this case

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Speaker 4: or by the Supreme Court declining to hear this case?

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Speaker 4: Has it actually become more dangerous to protest. Are there

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Speaker 4: things that we should be worried about? What are they?

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Speaker 4: And then what kinds of resources there are? I guess

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Speaker 4: the first thing I'm going to do is give you

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Speaker 4: a very brief premer on the First Amendment. So the

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Speaker 4: First Amendment guarantees, as I like to say, the very

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Speaker 4: First Amendment guarantees our rights to speech and assembly. The

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Speaker 4: government can place limits on the time, place, and manner

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Speaker 4: of your protest, but the government is not authorized to

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Speaker 4: criminalize speech based on subject matter or viewpoint. And it

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Speaker 4: can't impose what's called a prior restraint on speech, which

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Speaker 4: can include making it so risky to speak that people

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Speaker 4: engage in self censorship. But the First Amendment doesn't immunize

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Speaker 4: you from prosecution or civil liability for otherwise unlawful conduct.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 4: So that's why true threats of violence are not protected

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Speaker 4: by the First Amendment. Right, And it doesn't protect you

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Speaker 4: from being arrested for behavior just because that behavior is

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Speaker 4: politically motivated, which is why breaking Starbucks windows and graffiti

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Speaker 4: and assassination are not protected by the First Amendment.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: On the other hand, the fact that there are one

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Speaker 4: or more people at a demonstration who are acting unlawfully

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Speaker 4: does not strip the larger demonstration of First Amendment protection right.

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Speaker 4: And that principle comes from a case called NAACP versus

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Speaker 4: Claiborn Hardware and Clayborn. It was decided in nineteen eighty two,

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Speaker 4: and it was a case where the NAACP was soon

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Speaker 4: food civilly on the basis that they had organized a

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Speaker 4: protest where some people in the crowd had caused some damage.

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Speaker 4: I see this is a very very similar case to

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Speaker 4: the underlying case in this situation where Deray McKesson has

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Speaker 4: been sued civilly, meaning he's being sued for money damages.

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Speaker 4: He is not being criminally prosecuted. Right, That's an important distinction. So,

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Speaker 4: you know what, let's back up a little bit.

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Speaker 3: So can you explain who is Deray McKesson. Why is

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Speaker 3: Deray McKesson bouncing up and down between Louisiana and the

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Speaker 3: Supreme Court?

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Speaker 5: Yes? Okay, So I'm going to back up even farther

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Speaker 5: than that. The reason that we are here today, that

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Speaker 5: I am here with you talking about the case is

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Speaker 5: that the way that this case is being reported on

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Speaker 5: or received is that people are going, oh God, it's

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Speaker 5: now illegal to protest, and we're all going to go

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Speaker 5: to prison for protesting. Like, okay, I mean, first of all,

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Speaker 5: please using mass arrest of protesters to chill in silent

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Speaker 5: speech is already a time honored American tradition.

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Speaker 3: Yes, but that isn't.

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Speaker 5: What this case is about. This is a civil case,

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Speaker 5: which means that somebody is being sued for money damages,

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Speaker 5: and the person who's being sued is de Ray McKesson.

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Speaker 5: Deray McKesson was at one point, for anyone who can

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Speaker 5: remember a decade ago, was very high profile, very visible

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Speaker 5: in the Black Lives Matter movement in Ferguson and in

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Speaker 5: Baltimore and then later in Louisiana, and he was somebody

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Speaker 5: who was very visible in the media. He made a

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Speaker 5: lot of public statements. He made a lot of public

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Speaker 5: statements on behalf of Black Lives Matter, which you know

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Speaker 5: I'm going to get into is not a membership organization.

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Speaker 5: But he made a bunch of statements as though he

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Speaker 5: were the representative of a movement which he referred to

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Speaker 5: as Black Lives Matter. He organized a lot of protests.

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Speaker 5: I think at one point I have a memory that

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Speaker 5: he ran for office, so he was a very visible

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Speaker 5: movement organizer, right. He organized a protest in I believe

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Speaker 5: twenty seventeen in the wake of the police murder of

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Speaker 5: Altms Sterling, at which a police officer was hit in

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Speaker 5: the head with a hard object, a rock or a

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Speaker 5: piece of concrete, and he was like, the police officer

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Speaker 5: was injured.

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Speaker 3: Right, like pretty seriously, yeah.

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Speaker 5: And he then sued Deray McKesson for money damages on

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Speaker 5: the theory that because he had organized the protest, he

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Speaker 5: had control of the protest and he had some responsibility

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Speaker 5: for the fact that this other person had thrown a

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Speaker 5: rock at him. This theory requires a real failure to

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Speaker 5: understand social movements and distributed networks because what it presumes,

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Speaker 5: and I think we've talked about this before on this show,

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Speaker 5: is the inability of the police and the courts to

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Speaker 5: understand that not every social movement operates with a clear

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Speaker 5: hierarchy like the police, right or the military. Because their

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Speaker 5: social movement groups do imitate the military, they do imitate

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Speaker 5: that hierarchy. They totally reproduce this sort of chain of

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Speaker 5: command theory. So if you look at the Klan, right,

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Speaker 5: they are organized via they are incorporated, they have a membership,

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Speaker 5: there is a clear hierarchy, who is in charge, who

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Speaker 5: is giving orders, who is following orders?

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Speaker 3: Right, that is not the case Proud Boys, Patriot Front

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Speaker 3: like very of organizing without authority and the conceiving of

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Speaker 3: anyone doing so, it would seem right.

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Speaker 5: And so I think I've told you before. I've actually

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Speaker 5: had to drop footnotes in federal court filings to explain

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Speaker 5: that Antifa is not a membership organization.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a discussion that I have been privy

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Speaker 3: to as a historian of the same organization. Which day

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Speaker 3: it was ironically right that the KPg was Yeah, when

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Speaker 3: we were referring it to that, we're not talking about

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Speaker 3: nineteen thirty three Germany.

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Speaker 5: No. So you know when someone says and this becomes

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Speaker 5: relevant here because the initially when this suit was filed,

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Speaker 5: it was two different lawsuits, and it was a group

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Speaker 5: of police officers who had been shot in different places

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Speaker 5: in the country, suing not only during McKesson but black

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Speaker 5: lives matter. And I think in fact, one of the

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Speaker 5: defendants who was named in one of the initial suits

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Speaker 5: was hashtag black lives matter. So I don't know how

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Speaker 5: you serve a hashtag.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, fascinating totally fascinating.

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Speaker 5: I mean, the legal theory underlying these cases was pretty bonkers.

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Speaker 5: And then various other individuals who were part of different

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Speaker 5: Black Lives Matter groups. The initial suit that went after

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Speaker 5: all these people and hashtags for the shootings were really

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Speaker 5: just legally insufficient.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 5: The allegations that were made were Black Lives Matter whatever

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Speaker 5: that is, made statements about how policing is unjust and

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Speaker 5: police shouldn't be surprised if there's you know, if they

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Speaker 5: encounter resistance, and then these other people kind of showed

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Speaker 5: up and shot at cops. And the theory is that

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Speaker 5: by sort of making these statements, Black Lives Matter encouraged

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Speaker 5: or incited and was responsible for these shootings. Yes, this

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Speaker 5: is not a this is not a valid legal theory, right,

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Speaker 5: I mean, it just is not. And that case was dismissed,

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Speaker 5: you know, just entirely. And then the second case that

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Speaker 5: was brought was this one where the guy who was

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Speaker 5: hit in the head with a rock, and it's the

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Speaker 5: same allegations, the same theory of liability, and everybody got

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Speaker 5: dismissed out of that case. All of the defendants got

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Speaker 5: dismissed out of that case, except for Deray McKesson. And

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Speaker 5: part of the reason that everyone else was dismissed out

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Speaker 5: of that case, or that the suit was dismissed with

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Speaker 5: respect to those named defendants, is that Black Lives Matter

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Speaker 5: was an unincorporated association, and an unincorporated association can't be sued.

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Speaker 5: So and this has been relevant in other cases. I'm

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Speaker 5: not trying to give anyone legal advice, but I want

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Speaker 5: people to think about the fact. I think there's like

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Speaker 5: a real impulse sometimes in social movement organizing that like

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Speaker 5: we need to make everything a nonprofit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah they can, or we need to have a.

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Speaker 5: Bank account even And the fact is when you create

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Speaker 5: an organization, even if it's an unincorporated association, that where

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Speaker 5: the entity has what you would say is its personality

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Speaker 5: is distinct from that of its members. Right, right, it

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Speaker 5: can be sued. You become susceptible to a lawsuit. And

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Speaker 5: so for example, when Energy Transfer Partners tried to sue

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Speaker 5: there's currently a suit against green Peace, yes, the Standing

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Speaker 5: Rock suit, and we'll talk about that later. Right, it's

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Speaker 5: a slap suit. It's a suit that endeavors to stifle

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Speaker 5: speech that's in the public interest. When that suit first started,

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Speaker 5: they tried to sue Earth First, but Earth first is

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Speaker 5: not an entity. There's no one to serve. You know,

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Speaker 5: there's nobody there. It's not you know, it's like antify.

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Speaker 5: It'd be like trying to sue Batman fans.

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Speaker 3: Right, yeah, yeah, swifties, I would love to see it.

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Speaker 5: Right, there's there are maybe people who identify in that way,

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Speaker 5: but there is not a coherent group, right, and there's

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Speaker 5: certainly not a group that can take that can take

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Speaker 5: responsibility for the behavior of its members.

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Speaker 3: Right. Talking of taking responsibility, mo, we we unfortunately have

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Speaker 3: to take responsibility for the fact that we now have

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Speaker 3: to pivot to ads.

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Speaker 5: Okay, if you say so, I do.

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Speaker 3: I'm so sorry. It's not my favorite part of my job.

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Speaker 3: All Right, we're back there. We've pivoted to add So, yeah,

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Speaker 3: we're talking about like this, the difference between like an

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Speaker 3: incorporated organization, which can be So can you maybe just

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Speaker 3: even if we step it back like a little bit

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Speaker 3: further and explain the difference between civil and criminal liability,

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Speaker 3: just in case people haven't got that.

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Speaker 5: Criminal liability is like when you are criminally charged by

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Speaker 5: the state, by the government for violating a criminal law. Right,

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Speaker 5: and when you are criminally charged. The what is on

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Speaker 5: the table is that you might go to jail or

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Speaker 5: you might go to prison. You can also be civilly sued.

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Speaker 5: And what's happening there is if someone says, okay, you've

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Speaker 5: you know, you wrecked my car, or your dog bit me,

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Speaker 5: or you punched me in the face and I lost

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Speaker 5: a tooth, then you can be civilly sued by that

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Speaker 5: person for money, damages, got it right to compensate you

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Speaker 5: for the loss. So in this case, mister McKesson is

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Speaker 5: being civilly sued, not arrested, not prosecuted, not subject like,

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Speaker 5: there is no possability that if he loses this case,

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Speaker 5: he'll go to jail.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so this civil case happens in Louisiana. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: let's talk about how it bounces around the fifth circuit.

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Speaker 5: So I started to tell you that there were sort

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Speaker 5: of these two cases. The first one is entirely dismissed.

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Speaker 5: The second one they say, all right, Black Lives Matter

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Speaker 5: is not an association that can be sued. These other

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Speaker 5: individuals that you've named here as defendants were not present,

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Speaker 5: made no statements about it. Well, first they dismissed the

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Speaker 5: whole thing actually, then the cop appealed to the circuit,

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Speaker 5: and the circuit said, yeah, mostly you're right, District Court,

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Speaker 5: all of these people can't be sued. But mister McKesson,

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Speaker 5: we do think could be liable under a theory of

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Speaker 5: negligence because he organized the protest and was present. This

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Speaker 5: officer sues McKesson and a bunch of other people, and

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Speaker 5: the office says that mister McKesson is liable because he

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Speaker 5: organizes protests and should knew or should have known that

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Speaker 5: it could potentially turn violent. And so he says under

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Speaker 5: Louisiana law, he can sue on a theory of negligence,

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Speaker 5: which doesn't require any kind of intent or certain knowledge.

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Speaker 5: It's just being you know, negligent. Initially, the court, the

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Speaker 5: federal district Court, dismisses those claims, all of them based

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Speaker 5: on NAACPD Claiborne, which I talked about earlier, right, which says,

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Speaker 5: if you're at a protest and one person gets violent,

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Speaker 5: like the rest of the protest doesn't get does not

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Speaker 5: lose its First Amendment protected character just because other people

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Speaker 5: are violent. Then the cop appeals and the Fifth Circuit

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Speaker 5: in part affirms their rulings about all of the other

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Speaker 5: people who were sued, but reinstates the negligence against mister McKesson. Right,

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Speaker 5: he then it does it never, by the way, has

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Speaker 5: proceeded to trial. This case is still in a very

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Speaker 5: preliminary phase. Oh wow, it has been going on since

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Speaker 5: twenty seventeen and it's been bouncing up and down the courts.

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Speaker 5: But the question is can he even be sued under

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Speaker 5: this theory? So we haven't gotten he hasn't been found guilty,

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Speaker 5: we haven't had a presentation of evidence. There's all kinds

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Speaker 5: of stuff that has not yet happened in this case.

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Speaker 5: The question is very, very narrow. It's can a person

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Speaker 5: be sued under a theory of negligence when they organize

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Speaker 5: a protest and somebody else at that protest causes some

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Speaker 5: kind of harm?

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Speaker 6: Right?

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Speaker 5: So the Fifth Circuit says, go back district court and

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Speaker 5: hear this claim of negligence. McKesson then brings it to

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Speaker 5: the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court reverses the Fifth

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Speaker 5: Circuit and says it overturns their decision and says, you

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Speaker 5: actually can't force the district court to proceed with this

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Speaker 5: trial because you didn't check in with the Louisiana State

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Speaker 5: Court to get their feedback about whether Louisiana state law

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Speaker 5: actually allows for this kind of negligence claim.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so they missed procedurally, they fucked up.

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Speaker 6: Yes.

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Speaker 5: Then the Fifth Circuit says, okay, find Louisiana Supreme Court.

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Speaker 5: What do you think? And the court says, yeah, we

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Speaker 5: think you can proceed on this negligence claim. And then

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Speaker 5: the Fifth Circuit affirms its previous ruling and says, okay, Now,

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Speaker 5: District Court, hear it again, and you can hear this

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Speaker 5: negligence claim. As to mister McKesson, they tried to distinguish

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Speaker 5: it from Claiborn. I don't think they did a good job.

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Speaker 5: One of the there was a three judge panel that

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Speaker 5: ruled on this, so it was a two to one ruling.

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Speaker 5: Two of the judges try to distinguish it from Claiborne.

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Speaker 5: One of the judges Uh says, no, you know, Clayborn.

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Speaker 5: It's exactly the controlling You can only hold somebody liable

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Speaker 5: for their own behavior, right, And one of the things

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Speaker 5: he says is that if you make protest organizers liable

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Speaker 5: for someone else's violent behavior, all accounter protester has to

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Speaker 5: do is show up and start throwing rocks in order

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Speaker 5: to order to get the whole protest too, you know,

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Speaker 5: to impute liability to the the organizerson who organized the protest. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: and that goes both ways, right, So i've I am

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Speaker 5: sort of surprised that they given that there are social

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Speaker 5: movements that are probably more aligned with the values and

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Speaker 5: beliefs of these federal judges in the Fifth Circuit. So

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Speaker 5: the Fifth Circuit at this point says, no, go back

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Speaker 5: to the district court and have the trial on the

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Speaker 5: theory of negligence. Right, then, the Supreme Court decided a

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Speaker 5: case called Counterman be. Colorado. Counterman be. Colorado is not

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Speaker 5: a First Amendment political speech case. It's a case about

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Speaker 5: somebody making threats. But that case relies very heavily on Clayborne.

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Speaker 5: So in that case, we have what's called a true

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Speaker 5: threats analysis, and they're trying to determine whether a person

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Speaker 5: who's making threats needs to actually know that the threats

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Speaker 5: they're making are going to be perceived as real threats.

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Speaker 5: And what they decided was they do need to know

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Speaker 5: to some degree that these statements could be taken as

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Speaker 5: true threats. But they talk a lot. Kagan authored this opinion,

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Speaker 5: and she talks a lot about how careful we have

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Speaker 5: to be even with speech that is traditionally not protected

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Speaker 5: like true threats, because it's very important not to chill

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Speaker 5: protected speech. And what she says is that the Court

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Speaker 5: has always been really wary of chilling protected speech, and

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Speaker 5: so sometimes it makes extra space for speech that isn't

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Speaker 5: protected in order to make really sure it doesn't chill

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Speaker 5: protected speech. Right, So she says, the court must consider

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Speaker 5: the prospect of chilling non threatening expression given the ordinary

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Speaker 5: citizens predictable tendency to wide of the unlawful zone. The

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Speaker 5: speaker's fear of mistaking whether a statement is a threat,

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Speaker 5: his fear of the legal system getting that judgment wrong,

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Speaker 5: his fear in any event of incurring legal costs, all

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Speaker 5: those may lead him to swallow words that are in

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Speaker 5: fact not true threats. And so what they say is

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Speaker 5: we need to make a standard that has enough what

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Speaker 5: they say is breathing room to make sure that even

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Speaker 5: if it means that some unprotected speech gets through, we

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Speaker 5: have enough space for all of the protected speech to

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Speaker 5: still exist and for nobody to feel uncertain about whether

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Speaker 5: or not their.

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Speaker 2: Speech is protected.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, they don't want to gradually have a creeping

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Speaker 3: sort of boundary.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. So what she says is, if we're going to

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Speaker 5: ban any kind of speech, it has to be known

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Speaker 5: and knowable to the speaker, and there has to be

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Speaker 5: sort of a requirement that the speaker is actually aware

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Speaker 5: that this is not protected speech. And so in this

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Speaker 5: case encounterman with the guy who's making the bizarre threats,

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Speaker 5: what they decide is you only need to be reckless

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Speaker 5: about the speech. You don't have to be doing it

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Speaker 5: intentionally to threaten someone. But if you're saying things that

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Speaker 5: you even if you don't mean it to be a threat,

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Speaker 5: if you could reasonably anticipate that it will be received

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Speaker 5: as a threat, that's sufficient. Okay, okay, And then she says,

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Speaker 5: this are incitement decisions, right, So, Supreme Court decisions regarding

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Speaker 5: incitement to violence demand more. But the reason for that

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Speaker 5: demand is not present here where we're talking about threats.

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Speaker 5: When incitement is at issue, we have spoken in terms

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Speaker 5: of specific intent, presumably equivalent to purpose or knowledge. In

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Speaker 5: doing so, we recognized that incitement to disorder is commonly

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Speaker 5: a hair spread the way from political advocacy, and particularly

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Speaker 5: from strong protests against the government and prevailing order. Such

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Speaker 5: protests gave rise to all the cases in which the

382
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 5: Court demanded a showing of intent, and the Court decided

383
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Speaker 5: those cases against a resonant historical backdrop the Court's failure

384
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Speaker 5: in an earlier era to protect mere advocacy of force

385
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Speaker 5: or law breaking from legal sanction. A strong intent requirement

386
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Speaker 5: was and remains one way to guarantee history was not repeated.

387
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Speaker 5: It was a way to ensure the efforts to prosecute

388
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Speaker 5: incitement would not bleed over, either directly or through a

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Speaker 5: chilling effect, to dissenting political speech at the First Amendment's core. Okay,

390
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 5: so we have this case that's decided days after the

391
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Speaker 5: Fifth Circuit makes its decision that directly speaks to this decision. Right,

392
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Speaker 5: it reaffirms Clayborne. It reaffirms that political speech is protected.

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Speaker 5: It reaffirms that you cannot have a negligence standard. You

394
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Speaker 5: have to have a standard. You can't just say, well,

395
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Speaker 5: somebody knew or should have known that organizing a protest

396
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Speaker 5: might lead to violence, and you say they have to

397
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Speaker 5: be like, we're going to go out and we're going

398
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Speaker 5: to do violence at this protest at this time. Right,

399
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 5: they have to be actually advocating for violence in order

400
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Speaker 5: to be held responsible for violence.

401
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 3: Right, So how does this not just lead to his

402
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 3: case being dismissed.

403
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 5: So then at the same time as that's happening, mister

404
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 5: McKesson has asked the court again to weigh in on

405
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 5: whether this case can proceed under a negligence theory, right,

406
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 5: meaning should he have can he be prosecuted because it's

407
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 5: possible that a protest will turn violent. And the Court

408
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 5: says we're not going to hear this case, and somewhat unusually,

409
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,479
Speaker 5: Justice Sonya Soda Mayort issues a statement along with the

410
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 5: denial of hearing the case, and she says, this court

411
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Speaker 5: may deny what's called curcherai right hearing the case. The

412
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 5: Court may deny sorcherai for many reasons, including that the

413
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 5: law is not in need of further clarification.

414
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Speaker 3: Right.

415
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 5: It's denial today expresses no view about the merits of

416
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 5: mckesson's claim. Although the Fifth Circuit did not have the

417
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 5: benefit of this Court's recent decision in count Determine when

418
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 5: it issued its opinion, the lower courts now do I

419
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 5: expect them to give full and fair consideration to arguments

420
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Speaker 5: regarding Counterman's impact in any future proceedings.

421
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Speaker 2: Right.

422
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 5: So, I don't think that it's some like terrible thing

423
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 5: that the Court said, Oh, no, we're not going to

424
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Speaker 5: hear this case. I don't think they're saying in any way,

425
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 5: oh we're not going to hear this case because we

426
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 5: think it ought to proceed further and go to trial

427
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 5: down in Louisiana. I think what they're saying is we

428
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 5: already decided this issue. The law remains the same. Claiborne

429
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 5: is still the controlling case here.

430
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it seems very clear that what they're saying

431
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 3: is that we've already made clear what we stand on this.

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Speaker 5: That's right. And so the last thing that's on the

433
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 5: docket in mister mckesson's case is basically a submission that

434
00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 5: reiterates what Justice Sotomayor said, streat you a little from this,

435
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 5: It says, so do. Mayor's statement explains that the court's

436
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 5: decision expresses no view about the merits of the claim

437
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 5: because the law is not in need of further clarification.

438
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 5: So it suggests that the existing clear law comes from countermen.

439
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 5: And the statement makes even clearer that the First Amendment

440
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 5: does not permit liability on the negligence theory advanced by

441
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 5: the cop in this case. It doesn't say the cop

442
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 5: in this case, so it makes very clear. You know,

443
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 5: they have submitted mister mckesson's council has submitted this statement

444
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 5: to the judge, and I think there is every possibility

445
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 5: that this case is just going to die at this point.

446
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 5: You know, remember the District Court already dismissed it altogether

447
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 5: at once, and it has only been carrying it forward

448
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 5: because they were ordered to buy the Fifth Circuit.

449
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it would just go back to the district.

450
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. So in fact, there has been a lot

451
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 5: of anxiety about, oh, the Supreme Court is signaling that

452
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 5: the law has changed and that the Fifth Circuit can

453
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 5: just criminalize protest. In fact, what I think has happened

454
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 5: here is that the Supreme Court affirmed that the Fifth

455
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 5: Circuit may not expose people to civil liability for organizing

456
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 5: a protest. That does not mean that the courts down

457
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 5: there are not going to try to keep going forward

458
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 5: with this. But I think if they did, and if

459
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,479
Speaker 5: mister McKesson was like a if they even allowed it

460
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 5: to continue, it might just go right back up to

461
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 5: the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court might at that

462
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 5: point hear it because they've already said, no, we expect

463
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 5: you to follow the law that we just rearticulated in

464
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 5: this other case. Right, But again, remember that we haven't

465
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 5: had a trial yet. He hasn't been found guilty. He hasn't, right, Like,

466
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 5: the question is can we even proceed in this case?

467
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 3: Let's take a second outbreak here, and then we'll come

468
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 3: back and discuss This may have been over exaggerated in

469
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 3: terms of it's importance of state repression approtest, but that

470
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that state repression approtest is not happening, right,

471
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 3: it is. So can you explain to us the mechanisms

472
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 3: through which that happens and the considerations and resources available

473
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 3: to people who may wish to exercise the First Amendment? Right? Yes?

474
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 5: Absolutely? So has it become more dangerous to protest? I mean,

475
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 5: I guess, but not because of this case?

476
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,479
Speaker 3: Right? Right? Yeah, I mean generally right. They cops get

477
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 3: bigger guns and more guns and tear guess things every year,

478
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 3: and then they love to use him. Yeah, along with

479
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 3: the legal consequences.

480
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 5: Yes, And are there things that we should be worried about? Yes,

481
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 5: But I don't think that this particular case on its

482
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 5: own is the harbinger of the end of the First Amendment.

483
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 5: It's one symptom of the larger underlying effort by the

484
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 5: state and you know, corporate capital and all of the

485
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 5: forces of retrogression and repression to quell dissent. But it's

486
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 5: just one of many, right. And we've seen so many

487
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 5: examples of this, and they are by no means new

488
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 5: or novel, right, They're just trying out new legal theories,

489
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 5: and this was one of them. And I don't think

490
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 5: it's going to go anywhere, But I think we need

491
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 5: to remember there's always sort of multiple fronts on which

492
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 5: we're fighting this battle. Right. There's the legal front, right,

493
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 5: and then there's the sort of on the ground law

494
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 5: enforcement front. One of the reasons that mister McKesson was

495
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 5: targeted here is because he did make and this is

496
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 5: not to say this is his fault, it absolutely is not.

497
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 5: But one of the things that made him more susceptible

498
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 5: to targeting is that he did make a ton of

499
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 5: public statements and he was extremely visible in a way

500
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 5: that aligned with the governments and the right wings understanding

501
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 5: of social structures. Right because if they understand that social

502
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 5: movements are being directed from the top, which is not

503
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 5: typically the case. But if that's if that's what it

504
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 5: looks like to them, is a person that they can identify,

505
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 5: who they can even a little bit make out, even

506
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 5: the most tenuous case, is in charge, then you know

507
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 5: that's the person they're going to go after.

508
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

509
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, So to the extent that we're doing organizing that

510
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 5: where it is distributed, it is autonomous. You know, it

511
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:35,319
Speaker 5: is spontaneous. And we aren't working with in structures that

512
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 5: are hierarchical, and we're not working in structures that are

513
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 5: incorporated and have bank accounts in public meetings and membership structures.

514
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 5: You know, we're already very insulated from this kind of thing. Anyway,

515
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 5: the dangers are what the dangers have always been, which

516
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 5: are mass arrest because the police neither know nor care

517
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 5: what the law is, and they don't care about Clayborn,

518
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 5: and they don't care that the fact that you did

519
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 5: not personally throw a rock doesn't constitute probable cause to

520
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 5: arrest you. Right, Like, I am always more concerned about

521
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 5: things on the ground like mass arrests and police involved

522
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 5: injuries than I am about frankly about even long term

523
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 5: legal consequences because so often, and I guess I say

524
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,959
Speaker 5: this because I have the privilege of practicing in New York,

525
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 5: where there is a very strong history of public protest

526
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 5: and everyone sort of understands what that is and no

527
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 5: one feels all that threatened by it. Which doesn't mean

528
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 5: that there aren't a lot of police involved injuries, and

529
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 5: it doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of traumatic arrests,

530
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,919
Speaker 5: but it does mean that typically there are not devastating

531
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 5: legal consequences of that. Now, that's not the case in

532
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:03,839
Speaker 5: places like Georgia, right where they're doing their own sort

533
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 5: of boundary testing down there to see what kinds of

534
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 5: criminal liability and what kinds of theories of criminal law

535
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 5: they can use to sort of bootstrap absolutely garden variety

536
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 5: protest behavior into really serious felony charges. Right. So that's

537
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 5: the kind of stuff that I would say, Yeah, we

538
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 5: should be worried about it. It is dangerous to protest.

539
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 5: There's widespread surveillance, there's widespread public private collaboration, there's widespread

540
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 5: agency cooperation. There's all kinds of non state actors, right,

541
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 5: corporate actors, political actors, random sort of individuals and small

542
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 5: groups that are doing are engaged in all kinds of surveillance.

543
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 5: There's counter groups, right, we have like you mentioned before,

544
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 5: the Proud Boy, we have all kinds of well, look,

545
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 5: Canary Mission is a really good example, right, We have

546
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 5: all kinds of actors, groups, individuals, corporations, government entities that

547
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 5: have an interest in suppressing descent, and they engage in

548
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 5: all kinds of conduct, you know, ranging from intense surveillance

549
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 5: to doxing to you know, even more violent behavior, you know,

550
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 5: targeted harassment, not just by law enforcement, but by individuals,

551
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 5: by neighbors, by media outlets. Right. And those are the

552
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 5: kinds of things that make it dangerous to protest, I guess,

553
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 5: But since when do we let that stop us?

554
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 2: You know?

555
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 7: I mean?

556
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 5: The solution to these kinds of dangerous is to be thoughtful,

557
00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 5: to remember that discretion is the better part of valor, right, Meaning,

558
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 5: you don't need to be bragging about whatever you're doing

559
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 5: on Twitter. You don't need to always be the public

560
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 5: face of the movement, because even if you're not speaking

561
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 5: directly to cops in an interrogation, anything you say publicly

562
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 5: can and very much will be used against you. Yeah,

563
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 5: We're seeing a lot of employment and educational consequences right

564
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,919
Speaker 5: people are currently what's happening right now as we speak

565
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 5: at Columbia University, people are losing their student housing, they're

566
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 5: getting suspended from school, they're getting arrested, they're getting you know,

567
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 5: these student disciplinary proceedings. There's all kinds of risks to

568
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 5: being a public dissident. But the solution to that kind

569
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 5: of repression is not self censorship. It's courage.

570
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 3: There are other ways that we secure change, but showing

571
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 3: up in the streets is always how you make history,

572
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 3: and you have to be smart, but you also have

573
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 3: to be brave. As we reach another election year, almost

574
00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:00,320
Speaker 3: certainly like there will be protest, which, whatever happen, depends

575
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 3: in the election, right, that will lead to people who

576
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:08,399
Speaker 3: are perhaps not so familiar with horizontal organizing, with like

577
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 3: anti authoritarian or non authoritarian organizing, all these things, entering

578
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:17,240
Speaker 3: a protest movement, and people will inevitably have to learn

579
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 3: like one way or the other, you know, like these

580
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 3: basic things they can do to make it as safe

581
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 3: as possible to protest, and it would be great if

582
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 3: they can learn them from a podcast, not from them

583
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 3: or their friends getting hurt.

584
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 5: Here's what I would say too, if it is at

585
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 5: all possible, find a lawyer who is willing to consult

586
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 5: with you before you go out and do your action,

587
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 5: just so that you can be prepared right for purposes

588
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 5: of informed consent, because I cannot tell you. You know, lawyers

589
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,879
Speaker 5: are not allowed to advise their clients to break the law,

590
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 5: but it's very much our job to tell you what

591
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 5: the possible or likely consequences of certain courses of action.

592
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 5: And you are probably better off knowing what that is

593
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 5: before you do the thing than after you do that thing.

594
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good idea.

595
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 5: I will tell you that. Personally, I would rather spend

596
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 5: many hours talking people through, you know, the various outcomes

597
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 5: of different ideas, than spending ten minutes talking to them

598
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 5: after they're already in a cell. Right, you know, there

599
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 5: are ways of protesting that are entirely lawful that can

600
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 5: still help you to accomplish your political goals. And if

601
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 5: you are going to go out and do something that

602
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 5: you think is likely to involve a rest, I at

603
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 5: least want you to know that it is likely to

604
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 5: involve our resty exactly you know, and what your specific

605
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 5: risks might be and to have somebody lined up to

606
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 5: take care of you, to represent you if that becomes necessary.

607
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 3: Right.

608
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 5: I really don't mean to say, oh, don't worry about

609
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 5: McKesson VD, It's no big deal. It is a big deal.

610
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 5: It's a big deal because this whole judicial system and

611
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 5: legal apparatus is working over time to find every possible

612
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 5: way to discourage protest. But it is not unique in

613
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 5: that regard. And I guess that's really what I'm trying

614
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 5: to say. There are all kinds of ways in which

615
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 5: we are at risk by being dissidents. I just don't

616
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 5: think that this one is particularly special or particularly alarming.

617
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 5: And again, what I just referred to as the law

618
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 5: of the land is not the same thing as law

619
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 5: enforcement practice, right yeah.

620
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:54,240
Speaker 8: I would.

621
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 5: Really want to make sure that everyone remembers a the

622
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 5: law is not the same thing as justice, and neither

623
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 5: is the law the same thing or even necessarily related

624
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 5: to what police are doing on the ground during a protest.

625
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:17,439
Speaker 3: Right yeah, there's very different things. Where can people I guess,

626
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 3: people who are organizing, people who are you know, organizing autonomous,

627
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 3: spontaneous horizontal movements, are they good resources for them to

628
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,720
Speaker 3: find because they might be they might need in my state?

629
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 3: What's you know, what do I have to avoid that

630
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 3: kind of thing?

631
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:32,919
Speaker 2: Yes?

632
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 3: Where would they find those?

633
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 5: One resource if you are contacted by federal law enforcement

634
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 5: is you can call the National Lawyer's Guild Federal Anti

635
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 5: Repression Hotline at two one two six seven nine two

636
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 5: eight one one. A really good resource is the Electronic

637
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 5: Frontier Foundation's Surveillance Self Defense which is at s as

638
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,800
Speaker 5: in Surveillance s as in Self d in Defense dot

639
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 5: E as in Electronic f as in Frontier f as

640
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 5: in foundation dot org. The National Lawyer's Guild has various

641
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 5: know your Rights guides that are available at NLG dot org.

642
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 5: We also have chapters all over the country and if

643
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 5: you look in our referral directory you can find where

644
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 5: those contacts for people all over the country. I think

645
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 5: if you want a know your Rights training, you can

646
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 5: reach out to the NALG and there are a lot

647
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 5: of other a lot of other organizations that do know

648
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 5: your Rights trainings. I know in New York we have

649
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 5: a really amazing organization called Cuney Clear, and I would

650
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,760
Speaker 5: highly recommend you follow them on Instagram because they often

651
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 5: have a lot of resources they're posting Protect your People

652
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 5: a digital toolkit for organizations and employers, and it was

653
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 5: developed to combat anti LGBTQ plus harassment. But I think

654
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 5: the principles remain the same no matter what it is

655
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 5: that you're looking at. And I'll put the link to

656
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 5: that again. It's called Protect Your People and it's hosted

657
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 5: by the Harvard Law LGBTQ Clinic. But I'll stick the

658
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 5: link here in the chat for you, James, so that

659
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:33,760
Speaker 5: you can share it in the show notes.

660
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 2: Well.

661
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 3: To finish up, you've mentioned the national Lawyers Guilds and

662
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 3: some other resources. Is there anywhere else where people can

663
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 3: find you or where do you think that they should

664
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 3: be following along? Like you know, like we said, we're

665
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 3: going into an election year. Stuff's probably becoming more relevant again,

666
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 3: and there's a genocide happening right now that people are

667
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 3: facing severe personal consequences for protesting.

668
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I don't want anyone to follow me.

669
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 3: On social media.

670
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 5: If that's what you're asking, I will always every single

671
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 5: time plug landback dot org. And if people yes, I

672
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 5: can see that you have a land back flag behind you.

673
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a black one next to it.

674
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 5: Okay, also a solid choice for flags if we got

675
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 5: to do flags. Oh also, please, for the love of God,

676
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 5: don't talk to cops.

677
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 6: It's it could happen. Here a podcast where I didn't

678
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 6: come up with an intro. So you're getting this one.

679
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 6: I'm your host, Bia Wong. This is this is the

680
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 6: podcast where actually, this is the part of the podcast

681
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 6: where after things have fallen apart, you put them back

682
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 6: together again. And yeah, the thing that's being put back

683
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 6: together here. You know, I really I really should have

684
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 6: planned this intro more. But this is what happened. This

685
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 6: is what happens when we get night recordings. But yeah,

686
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 6: the thing, the thing we're putting together today is a

687
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 6: union at a really interesting kind of very very interesting kind.

688
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 3: Of coffee shop.

689
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 6: So with me to talk about this is Alex, Rocky

690
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 6: and Madeline from Blue Bottle Independent Union. And yeah, thank

691
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 6: you all for joining me.

692
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for having us.

693
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:37,399
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm excited to talk with you all. And so

694
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 6: I guess the first thing that I want to start

695
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 6: with is can you talk a bit about what Blue

696
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 6: Bottle is, because this is a really weird story that

697
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 6: I think kind of reveals a lot about the way

698
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 6: I don't know, it is sort of lofty terms, is

699
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 6: like the direction that capital has been moving in the

700
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 6: past like ten years.

701
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 8: Absolutely.

702
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

703
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 9: So Blue Bottle is a specialty coffee chain founded by

704
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 9: James Freeman in Oakland, California, like two thousand and two.

705
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 9: Like most specialty shops, starts off as like this small

706
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 9: little cart where you know, one guy is doing all

707
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 9: the parts of production, roasting, serving the coffee and all that.

708
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 8: And then.

709
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:23,359
Speaker 9: Throughout you know, the early aughts twenty ten's, they do

710
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 9: lots of rounds of venture capital financing with like Fidelity

711
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 9: and other firms until twenty seventeen, when Nesley purchased a

712
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 9: sixty eight percent majority ownership in Blue Bottle at I

713
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 9: think a seven hundred million dollar evaluation. And since then, no, no, no,

714
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,919
Speaker 9: the it was a seven hundred million dollar evaluation. They

715
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 9: paid four hundred million dollars too. Yeah, isn't this great?

716
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 9: And since then they've expanded from you know, the tiny

717
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 9: little location in California to seventy stores in the US

718
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 9: and then over one hundred globally, including in China, Japan,

719
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 9: Hong Kong, South Korea, and am I forgetting anywhere else.

720
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 2: I think that's I think that's it.

721
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 9: Yeah, Yeah, it's it's a fun time to be a

722
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 9: coffee worker.

723
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 8: I guess.

724
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's interesting to me the extent to which this

725
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 6: it has. I mean, okay, so like one hundred shops

726
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 6: is like a lot of shops, but it's not seven

727
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 6: hundred million dollars of shops. Like it really seems like

728
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 6: this company has like it really has like tech valuation,

729
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 6: which is alarming.

730
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, and I mean it's not uncommon for specialty right now,

731
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 9: which is also concerning. Like, as far as I understand,

732
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 9: Intelligentsia and La Cologne are also owned in part by

733
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 9: venture capital firms, and this is really confusing, especially because

734
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 9: for anybody that knows anything about like the economics of

735
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 9: coffee shops, the margins are terrible. Yeah, and really a

736
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 9: as far as I can tell, the only value that

737
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 9: Blue Bottle offers to Nesley is brand and like the

738
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 9: ability to eventually grow to the point where at some

739
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 9: point in the future they'll be able to make a

740
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 9: little bit of money.

741
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 6: Off of it all, which is a deeply weird business strategy. Yeah,

742
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 6: and so I guess I wanted to start here because

743
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 6: it feels like a very different organizing terrain than a

744
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 6: lot of like you know, a lot of the shops

745
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 6: that we've been that we talked to on this show,

746
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 6: because it's like the value of this company is only

747
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 6: kind of tangentially, you know, like on a sort of

748
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 6: macro level, the value of the company is like kind

749
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 6: of tenuously connected to your labor. But on the other hand,

750
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 6: like at the individual shop level, you're still dealing with

751
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 6: all of the same sort of like you know, like

752
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 6: hyper exploitation and trying to like ring every cent out

753
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 6: of stuff.

754
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:55,879
Speaker 3: So I guess I.

755
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,919
Speaker 6: Wanted to start by kind of asking, like how how

756
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:04,400
Speaker 6: did that the weirdness of what of what Blue Bottle

757
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:06,839
Speaker 6: is influence like how this campaign started.

758
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 7: To be pretty frank about our campaign, Like there was

759
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 7: a crop of organizers before Gonzo myself, who I would

760
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 7: say at this point are kind of the longest running

761
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 7: organizers on this campaign. Look, there was a crop before us,

762
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 7: so we joined. We did not start the campaign here

763
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 7: at Blue Bottle, but I think, I mean it was

764
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 7: difficult in the very beginning, Like you know, blue bottle

765
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 7: it pays now, like I think starting wage for brista

766
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 7: like eighteen an hour. You know, we just got to

767
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:37,360
Speaker 7: pave up in April, so it's like I, you know,

768
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 7: I do make more of the minimum wage. It's it

769
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 7: can be a tough sell for people to be like, oh,

770
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 7: but you know it's like marginally better, Like oh, I'm

771
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 7: working at this like fancy coffee shop, don't they treat

772
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 7: us a little better? Like? But when you look at

773
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 7: like also, the coffee industry has a hole on like

774
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 7: on a global scale, incredibly exploitative industry that like we

775
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 7: are both we play in too as people like in

776
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 7: the US who make incredibly expensive specialty coffee, but also

777
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,240
Speaker 7: like as workers who are exploited ourselves.

778
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 2: Like, this is something that I think we have to think.

779
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 7: About often as like how I don't know, how can

780
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:16,879
Speaker 7: our union affect this industry as a whole, How can

781
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 7: we affect you know, Nestle as this conglomer as a whole,

782
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 7: But also how can I afford my red next month?

783
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:22,800
Speaker 2: Yeah?

784
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,240
Speaker 7: And so you know, having those kinds of discussions with workers,

785
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,919
Speaker 7: like putting our day to day labor into this kind

786
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 7: of larger context both of the company and of the industry.

787
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,479
Speaker 7: I mean, I think this campaign, you know, we didn't

788
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 7: we didn't start out independent. We had a little bit

789
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 7: of shopping around almost of different unions. I think we

790
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 7: were also largely spout here in Boston specifically, like it

791
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 7: is kind of a hotbed for coffee organizing. A lot

792
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,280
Speaker 7: of shops around here organized. There have been some incredibly

793
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 7: like militant shops out here, like I think Gonza and

794
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 7: I first got introduced to the Bluebettle campaign from the

795
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 7: Star eight seven four picket line and they were out

796
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:04,359
Speaker 7: there for like two months, and I think that that,

797
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 7: you know, those kinds of things have really influenced this

798
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:10,399
Speaker 7: campaign and really influenced our organizing as we go into

799
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 7: this like really kind of corporate, bougie coffee shop that

800
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 7: is hard to hard to reconcile with, like, hey, I

801
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:24,879
Speaker 7: am also an exploited laborer. I you know, I am

802
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 7: forced to make coffee all day for customers who are

803
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 7: frankly quite rude and having to have those conversations with

804
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 7: your coacs of like, hey, we deserve better. It might

805
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 7: be marginally better than some other place, we still deserve

806
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 7: better and we can fight for so much more. So

807
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 7: I feel like I went on for a little bit there,

808
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 7: but I hope that answered that.

809
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 9: One thing to kind of add on to that is

810
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 9: when organizing in the stores. Part of the fact that

811
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 9: we're owned by Nesti makes it actually much easier because

812
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 9: people aren't like easily fooled. We understand that Neslei is

813
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 9: putting a lot of money into this company with the

814
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 9: hope of future returns, you know, in the shorter medium term.

815
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 9: And also people implicitly understand that the current model that

816
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 9: the cafes operate on is kind of reckless, Like because

817
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 9: we're owned basically as a venture capital scheme, this means that,

818
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 9: you know, we're constantly trying to cut costs that shouldn't

819
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 9: be cut. Like even today, Madeline and I ran out

820
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 9: of decaf coffee beans because they hadn't placed in order

821
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 9: for them.

822
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

823
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 8: Yeah uh.

824
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 9: And you know we've run out of you know, milks

825
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 9: fairly frequently. We've run out of things like cups and

826
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 9: lids and very basic things that you need to run

827
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 9: a coffee shop as far as I can tell, only

828
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 9: because they need to keep operating costs comically low so

829
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 9: that way they can appease their nestly over lots.

830
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:03,719
Speaker 6: Which is pretty funny because the math doesn't make any

831
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 6: sense on that right, because it's like, Okay, you need

832
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 6: to find a way to make like four hundred million dollars.

833
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:11,839
Speaker 6: Your solution to this is We're gonna delay ordering more

834
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 6: coffee beans. It's like, is there anyone who like, No,

835
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 6: you don't like. This isn't even an accountant situation. This

836
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 6: is a like, is there anyone here who understands what

837
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 6: an order of magnitude is? What are we doing here?

838
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 8: Wait till you hear about the saffron latte?

839
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 1: Oh god, what a disaster.

840
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, so.

841
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,240
Speaker 9: They don't have enough money to pay us a living wage.

842
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 9: But from January until April of this year, we were

843
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 9: serving a saffron vanilla latte with and I kid you,

844
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 9: not real saffron, both in a syrup and also and

845
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 9: a powdered Yeah no, no kidding. It tasted like Plato.

846
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 9: I kind of like that, but not everybody does, apparently,

847
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 9: you know.

848
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 6: The first time, this is the first time I've ever

849
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 6: said this in my entire life, But I sincerely hope

850
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 6: that they were buying the fucking cheap fakes stuff real saffron.

851
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 6: Oh god, well, to be fair, to be fair, a

852
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 6: lot of something people think is real saffron probably is fake.

853
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 6: So maybe maybe the scammers were getting something out of this.

854
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,439
Speaker 8: But dear God, that doesn't make them look good.

855
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:19,360
Speaker 9: But yeah, no, real, somebody who's good with the economy

856
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 9: helped me out here. You know, three thousand dollars a

857
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 9: week for Saffron and eighteen dollars an hour for Bereiza's.

858
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 3: God, that's gonna like haunt me in my dreams. So

859
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,800
Speaker 3: what order are gonna ask? How much should that cost?

860
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 3: Eight Jesus Christ.

861
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 8: Oh no, but not enough money to pay us a

862
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 8: living wage.

863
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 6: No, that's o no, no, that is that is that

864
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 6: is Jenny widely disgusting.

865
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,319
Speaker 10: Like how you know, when you think about it, we

866
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:01,320
Speaker 10: can like buy a little over two of them every

867
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 10: hour we work.

868
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:05,479
Speaker 3: So like that's all we need.

869
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, that's also got to be like a kind

870
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 6: of radicalizing moment of oh my god, yeah, and here

871
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 6: our time is worth so little to these people.

872
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 7: This is actually one of the biggest conversations I would

873
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 7: have with my cocher is that I had to stop

874
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 7: having so it make them incredibly upset. Was I would

875
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 7: break down the mouth of them. I'd be like, you

876
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 7: can make a latte in about a minute, two minutes, like,

877
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 7: and those lattes are seven dollars. You make seventeen an hour,

878
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 7: make three lattes, and that's more than your hourly wage,

879
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 7: and you're making what one hundred of those an hour

880
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 7: in a rush. Like people would get really upset when

881
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 7: you're confronted with like the oh wow, the money coming

882
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 7: in and then the money.

883
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 2: That I'm receiving. It'll drive you crazy.

884
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think, I don't know.

885
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 6: That's one of these things where I think in a

886
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 6: lot of industries it's kind of that kind of value

887
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 6: thing is abstracted because like I don't know, Like you're,

888
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 6: like I just talked about it like an accountant earlier, right,

889
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 6: Like you're an accountant, you have no idea how much

890
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 6: of well, I guess maybe an accountant would know exactly

891
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 6: about a value like that.

892
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 3: Okay, I don't know.

893
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 6: You work in like you work in a factory that

894
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 6: produces an auto part, right, like one thing that goes

895
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 6: into an assembly of an auto parts, Like you have

896
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 6: no like there's no good way for you to like

897
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 6: actually understand this sort of value.

898
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 3: Things.

899
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 6: You can get kind of close, but I think it's

900
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 6: less visceral than just yeah, this is an item of

901
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 6: food that I'm watching all of these people like consume

902
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:35,000
Speaker 6: that I'm making, and it's like, yeah, sure, obviously there's

903
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 6: like you know, like back down the value chain, there's

904
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 6: also probably like Nessley doing like slave labor, like child

905
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 6: slave labor to get chocolate or something. Right, But I

906
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 6: don't know, there's this there's something really kind of just

907
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 6: viscerally horrifying about like I've produced eight hundred dollars of

908
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 6: coffee and they're paying me eighteen dollars. Yeah, so speaking

909
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 6: of eight hundred dollars of coffee, this show.

910
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 3: Actually, I don't think.

911
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 6: We've ever gotten the coffee ad, which is sort of remarkable.

912
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 6: You'd think at some point, I.

913
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 9: Don't know, I don't dream really funny, you know, if

914
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 9: if on the ad that we're about to go to,

915
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 9: it's you know, like the Black Rifle Coffee Company or

916
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:14,479
Speaker 9: some shit.

917
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 6: Oh god, wait no, I think I think one of

918
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 6: the I think one of the insane. It might have

919
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 6: been the other one. So there's like Black Rifle Coffee,

920
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:26,600
Speaker 6: which is the right wing coffee thing. But then they

921
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 6: they condemned Kyle Rittenhouse murdering all those people, and so

922
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 6: then there became a second to even more anti woe

923
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 6: coffee shop that was even shittier. I think those people

924
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 6: might legitimately have tried to sell an ad to our show.

925
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 3: At one point we were like.

926
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 6: No, what the fuck, that's why there's we had so

927
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 6: many insane ads. We had the famously the Washington Highway

928
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 6: Patrol put one on here. So let's let's hope you

929
00:59:55,720 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 6: have a reasonable ad instead of that, and we are back.

930
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 6: Luckily this is podcasting or not regulated like radio, so

931
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 6: I could just fucking say, shit, it's great. We love

932
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 6: we love, we love to be we love to be

933
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 6: in podcasting. So yeah, this, this brings us in no

934
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 6: particular bye by by no particular rhyme of reason.

935
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 3: This brings us to a neoxt.

936
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 6: Thing I wanted to sort of talk about, which is

937
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 6: about the decision to go independent and about independent unions

938
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 6: versus sort of the traditional business unions that have been

939
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 6: trying to run a lot of these campaigns. So yeah,

940
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 6: I guess wherever you want to start in that whole

941
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 6: sort of thickets of issues.

942
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, the decision to go independent was maybe eight months

943
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 7: into our campaign. We didivo to go independent. We were,

944
01:00:56,840 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 7: you know, kind of we had not a with anyone.

945
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 7: We some weird stuff that happened with some previous business

946
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 7: unions and so we're kind of an shopping around phase,

947
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:09,320
Speaker 7: and I like good friend of the union and someone

948
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 7: who has helped us incredibly throughout the campaign, said hey,

949
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 7: can I pitch you guys on going independent? Like and

950
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 7: at that time, I mean, I can't speak for the

951
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:21,520
Speaker 7: other folks, Like I did not know anything about independent unions.

952
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:24,960
Speaker 7: This campaign has also been an incredible like learning process

953
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 7: for me. And so you know, we talked about a

954
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:31,919
Speaker 7: little bit of like, hey, unions, everything that a union does,

955
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 7: workers can do and really like trying to like instill

956
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 7: this like we can do it ourselves because I think

957
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 7: that like, for me, like the dream of independent unionism

958
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 7: is like the having autonomy and control of our lives

959
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:50,160
Speaker 7: both in the workplace and in our unions at like

960
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 7: as workers. And so you know this idea of like

961
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 7: oh yeah, this the the union just takes care of it. Oh,

962
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 7: you pay dues and this stafford does all these things

963
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 7: for you. But when you know, when we filed our petition,

964
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 7: you know I filled that out, it's not that hard.

965
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 7: You know, there are so many things where it's like oh, yeah,

966
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 7: the union will take care of it, or oh this

967
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 7: is what does pay for like, oh, we can have

968
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 7: a lawyer look at it. At no part of this

969
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:15,200
Speaker 7: process was there really anything that workers could not have done.

970
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,120
Speaker 7: Did we seek legal advice? Absolutely? Did we have people

971
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:20,479
Speaker 7: help us out who maybe knew more than I did. Yes,

972
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 7: But that isn't to say that we were not learning

973
01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 7: the entire time. So to me, that's like the big

974
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 7: ethos of independent unionism of like learning it, doing it,

975
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:32,800
Speaker 7: teaching others. I think it has been an incredible opportunity.

976
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 7: I think also like we really are committed to like

977
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:39,320
Speaker 7: rank and file democracy and so having workers have a

978
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 7: say in all major decisions, especially like now that we

979
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:46,919
Speaker 7: have had our election, we're moving into bargaining hopefully soon,

980
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 7: Like being able to have workers submit proposals, have workers

981
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:54,600
Speaker 7: look and do open bargaining, have them look at every

982
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:56,440
Speaker 7: at the contract at every step of the way, and

983
01:02:56,480 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 7: things like this, having people participate in their unions. I mean,

984
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 7: I think that we are in a time of like

985
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:04,480
Speaker 7: the revitalization of the labor movement, and I don't want

986
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:06,320
Speaker 7: workers to get left behind in that. Like I think

987
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 7: that we, you know, like we are the labor and

988
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 7: so being able to control our unions and lead them

989
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:16,520
Speaker 7: in the ways that we want to as democratically as

990
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 7: we can.

991
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 2: To me, it's been what it's all about. Did that

992
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 2: mean that it was an easy campaign. No, it was

993
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 2: a lot of work. It was a lot of.

994
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 7: Work that maybe a paid staff or would have done,

995
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 7: but we did it ourselves and it took longer, and

996
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 7: it took a lot of education as well of explaining

997
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 7: to my coworkers of like, hey, we want to form

998
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 7: a union and it's not just this thing that kind

999
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 7: of happens to you, Like, actually, you have to make

1000
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 7: it happen now if you want to do it. So

1001
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 7: I think that for us the choice to go in

1002
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 7: dependent independent has like only reaped benefits so far.

1003
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:48,240
Speaker 2: It's been this wonderful thing.

1004
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:50,760
Speaker 7: I think that we are all much better for it

1005
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 7: and much closer like as co workers. I think that

1006
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:57,240
Speaker 7: people are more excited about their union. But it certainly,

1007
01:03:57,360 --> 01:03:58,919
Speaker 7: you know, it took a lot of work, It took

1008
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 7: a lot of time. It took a lot of trust

1009
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:02,479
Speaker 7: from our coworkers as well.

1010
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, one of the most formative experiences that

1011
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:11,200
Speaker 9: has stuck with me, and I think I might have

1012
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 9: mentioned this in the interview before the interview was when

1013
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 9: we were shopping around with business unions. Rocky and I

1014
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:20,880
Speaker 9: had sat down with somebody from a fairly large one,

1015
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:24,800
Speaker 9: and we're trying to ask all of these questions about,

1016
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:27,160
Speaker 9: you know, would we be able to have rank and

1017
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:30,680
Speaker 9: file control of our own campaign, would we be able

1018
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:38,200
Speaker 9: to you know, legitimately examine unconventional tactics for launching or

1019
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 9: sustaining our campaign, you know, what is the actual process

1020
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:47,320
Speaker 9: for requesting finances from the larger affiliate if we needed it,

1021
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:50,000
Speaker 9: And more or less, what we were told by this

1022
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 9: staffer was that none of this would be in the

1023
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 9: hands of rank and file, and it would either be

1024
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 9: determined by what this particular staffer thought was best or

1025
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:02,480
Speaker 9: you know, they would have to get approval from you know,

1026
01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 9: whoever was above them, which, despite the fact that this

1027
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:09,960
Speaker 9: person was within the reform caucus of their union, did

1028
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:12,000
Speaker 9: not strike them as being anti democratic at all.

1029
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1030
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:19,720
Speaker 9: Yeah, And at that point, I mean, you know, we'd

1031
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:23,360
Speaker 9: been talking to our co workers for months at that point,

1032
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:28,400
Speaker 9: you know, hanging out with them, becoming building community, and

1033
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:33,000
Speaker 9: it didn't seem like there was really anything that you know,

1034
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 9: a larger business union would have had to offer to

1035
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:39,680
Speaker 9: begin with. In fact, in my own experience, the idea

1036
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:44,040
Speaker 9: of affiliation has more or less come across as an

1037
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:46,720
Speaker 9: implicit threat of how else are you going to take

1038
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 9: on Nesley without all of the money and resources that

1039
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:50,640
Speaker 9: we have but won't let you use anyways.

1040
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:54,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is like not a thing.

1041
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:57,360
Speaker 6: I don't know, if you've gotten to the point where

1042
01:05:57,360 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 6: your union is threatening you, and this is something that

1043
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:04,400
Speaker 6: like happens more than you'd think, Like, you know, but

1044
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 6: listeners of this show may or may not have listened

1045
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:09,680
Speaker 6: to some previous episodes talking to some of the reformed

1046
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:12,120
Speaker 6: nurses slates that we've we've had on this show.

1047
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 3: Where that's happened.

1048
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 6: But if your union is threatening to you, something has

1049
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:20,800
Speaker 6: gone very badly wrong, and you're probably you're in a

1050
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:22,960
Speaker 6: position where you're probably going to be having to fight

1051
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:25,040
Speaker 6: yourself out of a deep hole. And one way you

1052
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 6: can avoid getting in there in the first place is

1053
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:29,880
Speaker 6: by not digging the hole and building something yourself.

1054
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:34,440
Speaker 9: Yeah, exactly, And I mean, you know, one of the

1055
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:37,160
Speaker 9: things that we heard a lot about at Labor Notes

1056
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 9: two weeks ago at this point was people within larger

1057
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:44,040
Speaker 9: unions talking about how to fight off staffers or bureaucrats

1058
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:48,080
Speaker 9: and I'm personally very glad that we are not in

1059
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:50,560
Speaker 9: that fight ourselves because we have Nestlie to take care of.

1060
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 6: Now. Yeah, yeah, the sort of two way fight between

1061
01:06:57,000 --> 01:07:01,280
Speaker 6: your boss and then also and staffers is not a

1062
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 6: thing that usually goes well for you.

1063
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:06,680
Speaker 3: It's a bad situation to be it. I would recommend

1064
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:07,480
Speaker 3: of waiting it.

1065
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1066
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, So I guess the next thing that I'm sort

1067
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:14,120
Speaker 6: of interested in is, you know, so you talked a

1068
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 6: bit about how sort of being an independent union like

1069
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 6: made the union closer. How else did that influence how

1070
01:07:21,200 --> 01:07:23,920
Speaker 6: the campaign went? And how is like how how has

1071
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:26,160
Speaker 6: it been going in the past, Like, I know, I

1072
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 6: know you won your election. I mean, they're right, yeah,

1073
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 6: it was it was an election with sorry it has

1074
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:34,400
Speaker 6: been this is This has been the most chaotic two

1075
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 6: weeks I've had in several years.

1076
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:39,160
Speaker 9: So, I mean, it's just like Lennon said, there are

1077
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 9: years when you fuck around and weeks where you find out.

1078
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 9: I'm gonna get so much shit for that comment now, anyways.

1079
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:54,000
Speaker 3: Cool Zobebia is not endorsed. Letting made two good lines.

1080
01:07:55,600 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 9: I promise I only said it for the joke. Yeah,

1081
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 9: our campaign started April third. There are six stores in

1082
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:09,200
Speaker 9: the Greater Boston area, with roughly sixty seven sixty five

1083
01:08:09,320 --> 01:08:10,720
Speaker 9: workers across all of them.

1084
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:14,880
Speaker 8: On April third, fifty.

1085
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:19,280
Speaker 9: Workers from five of those stores handed cards like union

1086
01:08:19,280 --> 01:08:23,600
Speaker 9: authorization cards to management, announcing our campaign, our union, and

1087
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:29,200
Speaker 9: asking for voluntary recognition by noon on April eighth. Management

1088
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:33,160
Speaker 9: accepted the cards, but then did not recognize the union

1089
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:36,360
Speaker 9: voluntarily by newon April eighth, and instead they put up

1090
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 9: a flyer in the back of the house of all

1091
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:40,920
Speaker 9: the cafes saying that they would respect the outcome of

1092
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:44,679
Speaker 9: an election, at which point, yeah, they didn't even publicly

1093
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:48,120
Speaker 9: acknowledge us. So at that point, across five of the

1094
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:50,599
Speaker 9: six stores, we had a walk out on the eighth,

1095
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:55,000
Speaker 9: and then that same day went downtown to file for

1096
01:08:55,040 --> 01:08:58,600
Speaker 9: an election with the NLRB, which despite the fact that

1097
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:00,680
Speaker 9: we called them a week in advance to be like,

1098
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:02,599
Speaker 9: is it okay if a lot of people show up

1099
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 9: kind of spontaneously to file for an election, And despite

1100
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 9: the fact that the person in the office said, yeah,

1101
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:10,800
Speaker 9: it's fine as so long as like less than one

1102
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:12,519
Speaker 9: hundred and you don't have like a sound stage or

1103
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:13,840
Speaker 9: anything you got to set up, and if you do

1104
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:17,479
Speaker 9: get a permit. Once we walked up to the office,

1105
01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:20,439
Speaker 9: at least four DHS cop cars like a sump in

1106
01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:24,200
Speaker 9: front of us, and they would only let Rocky go

1107
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:27,320
Speaker 9: into the office to file for our election while being

1108
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:30,280
Speaker 9: escorted by a DHS agent the entire times.

1109
01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:34,320
Speaker 6: You know, sometimes you get just these this is something

1110
01:09:34,320 --> 01:09:36,400
Speaker 6: that's been happening, so like, well, I have no idea

1111
01:09:36,400 --> 01:09:38,360
Speaker 6: when this episode is gonna go. This is being recorded

1112
01:09:38,360 --> 01:09:40,639
Speaker 6: in the middle of the protest. Like literally today, seventy

1113
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 6: year old professors are getting dragged out of like protests

1114
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:46,559
Speaker 6: by cops, and like this is one of these moments

1115
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:51,680
Speaker 6: where when things actually happenet these really visceral demonstrations of

1116
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:54,479
Speaker 6: like what the society you actually live in is. And

1117
01:09:55,040 --> 01:09:57,960
Speaker 6: I don't think there's like a more perfect demonstration of

1118
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:01,680
Speaker 6: the National Labor Relations Boards sometimes will help you, but

1119
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:05,360
Speaker 6: also also is very clearly a bureaucratic mechanism of a

1120
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:06,040
Speaker 6: police state.

1121
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:09,519
Speaker 3: Then the cops show up and only one of you

1122
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:10,760
Speaker 3: can go talk to the n l R and P

1123
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:14,599
Speaker 3: person escorted by police. That is wild.

1124
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:16,519
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1125
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:18,360
Speaker 9: It was also the same day as the solar eclipse.

1126
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:24,000
Speaker 9: Oh my god, it was a very magic day. Yeah,

1127
01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:27,280
Speaker 9: nothing was more enchanting than the fact that we got

1128
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:29,840
Speaker 9: to watch the eclipse when we otherwise would have had

1129
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:31,880
Speaker 9: to have been at work at rules.

1130
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:35,479
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I get I guess. I guess that's another

1131
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:37,599
Speaker 6: way to get to get turnout for a walk out.

1132
01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:39,560
Speaker 6: It's like, hey, look we're gonna do a walk and

1133
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 6: also you could go see the eclipse instead of serving

1134
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:43,360
Speaker 6: rich people coffee.

1135
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:45,719
Speaker 3: And it worked. Hell yeah.

1136
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:49,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. But all that is to say, I think being

1137
01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:51,760
Speaker 2: independent lets us do fun and creative things.

1138
01:10:51,920 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1139
01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:55,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, thank you for remembering what the actual question was.

1140
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:00,840
Speaker 7: Like, I think we're allowed to be a little silly

1141
01:11:00,920 --> 01:11:03,400
Speaker 7: with it, and we're allowed to have fun, and we're

1142
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:05,360
Speaker 7: allowed to come up with ideas that maybe.

1143
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:07,040
Speaker 3: Other like haters would shoot down.

1144
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:08,719
Speaker 7: But when me and my cocher say yeah that would

1145
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:10,920
Speaker 7: be cool and fun, we just get to do it

1146
01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:15,000
Speaker 7: and there's like joy and creativity and all of it.

1147
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:29,760
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, So I guess you know, do you have

1148
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 6: anything else that you want to make sure we get

1149
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:32,559
Speaker 6: you before we sort of wrap things up.

1150
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:34,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. So.

1151
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 9: I mean, as much as we've talked about a lot

1152
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:40,440
Speaker 9: of the benefits of independent unionism, one of the downsides

1153
01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:44,599
Speaker 9: is that we have no money, and if people would

1154
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:46,639
Speaker 9: be so gracious as to give us some of their money.

1155
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:51,479
Speaker 9: You can go to link t R dot e E

1156
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:56,519
Speaker 9: slash Blue Bottle Union so link tree slash Blue Bottle Union,

1157
01:11:57,200 --> 01:12:00,880
Speaker 9: where there'll be a link to our GoFundMe. I'll also

1158
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 9: say that since we don't have staffers, our overhead is

1159
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:06,120
Speaker 9: incredibly low and this will once again allows us to

1160
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:09,040
Speaker 9: you know, actually do cool and fun things like we

1161
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:12,080
Speaker 9: were able to pay everybody that did the walkout because

1162
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:14,120
Speaker 9: we were able to raise enough money in the in

1163
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:17,640
Speaker 9: between from April third to eighth, which was incredible.

1164
01:12:19,160 --> 01:12:22,240
Speaker 10: I have like some personal stuff when it comes to

1165
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:26,800
Speaker 10: like filing independent and talking with a lot of people

1166
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:31,479
Speaker 10: that I know, I feel like it actually helped the

1167
01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:34,519
Speaker 10: fact that we were independent because you know, there was

1168
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:38,439
Speaker 10: none of that background, oh unions. You know that there's

1169
01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:41,080
Speaker 10: this big influence when it comes to like unions and

1170
01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:44,800
Speaker 10: like big scary unions taking all your money through union

1171
01:12:44,920 --> 01:12:50,040
Speaker 10: dues and YadA YadA. But you know, with filing independent,

1172
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:54,120
Speaker 10: you know we can just be like, actually, we don't

1173
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:57,320
Speaker 10: have to worry about anything like that. We set union

1174
01:12:57,439 --> 01:13:01,640
Speaker 10: dues democratically and like and so it's just been like

1175
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:07,400
Speaker 10: really helpful for when we were getting organized and everything.

1176
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:14,360
Speaker 10: Just relaying that idea to coworkers, to family, friends and

1177
01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:17,519
Speaker 10: everyone just kind of like helps them be like, oh

1178
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:18,639
Speaker 10: that makes sense.

1179
01:13:20,040 --> 01:13:20,240
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1180
01:13:20,280 --> 01:13:22,800
Speaker 9: I mean the old like you know, anti union talking

1181
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:25,360
Speaker 9: point of like you know, there being an outside organization

1182
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:29,840
Speaker 9: really falls flat with an independent union because it really

1183
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:32,880
Speaker 9: is just you and all of your friends. And then

1184
01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:36,080
Speaker 9: on top of that, it also means that management hasn't

1185
01:13:36,080 --> 01:13:39,200
Speaker 9: known how to respond to us, because in the week

1186
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:42,280
Speaker 9: leading up to our election, which we won thirty eight

1187
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:47,200
Speaker 9: to four this past Friday, May third, Yeah, they put

1188
01:13:47,240 --> 01:13:50,840
Speaker 9: out like three or four different flyers, one talking about

1189
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:53,880
Speaker 9: business unions that have signed management's rights clauses in the

1190
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:55,840
Speaker 9: most fucking like I'm not owned.

1191
01:13:55,920 --> 01:13:56,519
Speaker 6: I'm not owned.

1192
01:13:56,760 --> 01:14:01,280
Speaker 8: I'm still going to get my mentionmans rights claus like ever.

1193
01:14:01,640 --> 01:14:06,800
Speaker 9: And then also another flyer about union dues and examples

1194
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:09,479
Speaker 9: of business unions that you know, to anybody that doesn't

1195
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:11,040
Speaker 9: know anything about unism, would seem high.

1196
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:11,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1197
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:14,200
Speaker 9: They also, in a letter that they sent out to

1198
01:14:14,360 --> 01:14:17,320
Speaker 9: all of us the night before our election, talked complained

1199
01:14:17,320 --> 01:14:20,120
Speaker 9: about us seeking external assistance, and all of this just

1200
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:24,360
Speaker 9: completely falls flat because you know, it's literally we've done

1201
01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:26,760
Speaker 9: this mostly by like having pot lucks together to talk

1202
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:29,320
Speaker 9: about all of our issues at work and or like

1203
01:14:29,439 --> 01:14:34,080
Speaker 9: movie nights or some shit, and it's much tougher to

1204
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:37,400
Speaker 9: convince people to vote against the person that they're on

1205
01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:38,599
Speaker 9: the floor with eight hours a day.

1206
01:14:39,200 --> 01:14:42,360
Speaker 10: Yeah, the overall like way that these papers were received

1207
01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:46,000
Speaker 10: is has been like met with kind of like a

1208
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:50,720
Speaker 10: lot of skull emojis in group chats and like just

1209
01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:54,880
Speaker 10: kind of like generally making fun of the whole thing.

1210
01:14:57,439 --> 01:15:00,080
Speaker 10: And I think that like that's been really good for

1211
01:15:00,200 --> 01:15:04,560
Speaker 10: morale as well, because like, you know, it's just not

1212
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:09,080
Speaker 10: getting to us. It's goofy and like just doesn't work.

1213
01:15:10,120 --> 01:15:14,240
Speaker 10: So and also the way that they've been handing these

1214
01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:16,880
Speaker 10: flyers out, I don't know about like other cafes, but

1215
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:22,880
Speaker 10: at mine specifically, it's been kind of awkward, like haha,

1216
01:15:23,200 --> 01:15:25,760
Speaker 10: cover my eyes, here's this flyer that I have to

1217
01:15:25,880 --> 01:15:33,080
Speaker 10: hand you kind of thing, and it's just like okay, yeah.

1218
01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:37,519
Speaker 6: Yeah, it really seems like it is something, you know, Okay,

1219
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:39,560
Speaker 6: Diffinitely I'm I'm I'm not I'm not going to do

1220
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:43,200
Speaker 6: my tangent about the infiltration of political parties.

1221
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:47,040
Speaker 9: But yeah, I mean, really political cults within the Greater

1222
01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:51,880
Speaker 9: Boston area continuously subvert and undermine union elections are not

1223
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:55,559
Speaker 9: just elections, but campaigns as well. I won't name examples

1224
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:58,320
Speaker 9: because these same cults are also incredibly vindictive and they

1225
01:15:58,320 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 9: will try to dox me.

1226
01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:03,040
Speaker 8: But this is also the implicit threat.

1227
01:16:02,880 --> 01:16:05,000
Speaker 9: That you know, like if you know, they can't turn

1228
01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:08,080
Speaker 9: a union into their own stupid vanguard, then they will

1229
01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:11,439
Speaker 9: try and push through something that rank and file don't

1230
01:16:11,479 --> 01:16:14,000
Speaker 9: want and try and undermine or tank the campaign.

1231
01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:16,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, and that's that's something I think like to take

1232
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:18,680
Speaker 6: it to okay, so to take a little step back.

1233
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:21,360
Speaker 6: So yeah, one of the things that's very common in

1234
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:24,320
Speaker 6: union in sort of like local union spaces is there

1235
01:16:24,360 --> 01:16:27,080
Speaker 6: will be like there'll be like a local of a

1236
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:29,640
Speaker 6: union or like maybe sometimes its own union that's just

1237
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:33,040
Speaker 6: run by a cult, and these sort of like these

1238
01:16:33,080 --> 01:16:35,439
Speaker 6: sort of like I don't know, sometimes you're Stalinis and

1239
01:16:35,520 --> 01:16:38,439
Speaker 6: under Trotskyites sometimes, like it depends, the ideology changes to

1240
01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:42,280
Speaker 6: some extent. But because because of like the you know,

1241
01:16:42,400 --> 01:16:46,160
Speaker 6: the because because you can run like a staff union

1242
01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:49,680
Speaker 6: with like five people, right, this is this is a

1243
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 6: pretty good way for them to sort of like like

1244
01:16:53,040 --> 01:16:55,400
Speaker 6: you know, gain something that looks like political power, and

1245
01:16:55,479 --> 01:16:57,160
Speaker 6: like it's a way for them to bring other people

1246
01:16:57,240 --> 01:17:00,879
Speaker 6: who don't know what's going on into like the influencers

1247
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:06,040
Speaker 6: of their organization, and they this can get really bad

1248
01:17:06,160 --> 01:17:08,840
Speaker 6: and really dangerous, at least the stuff you're talking about where, yeah,

1249
01:17:08,880 --> 01:17:12,120
Speaker 6: they start trying to sabotage campaigns because they're not you know,

1250
01:17:12,240 --> 01:17:15,640
Speaker 6: like these groups aren't actually in this for you know,

1251
01:17:15,840 --> 01:17:17,519
Speaker 6: like they're not they're not in this for class struggles.

1252
01:17:17,600 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 6: But whatever they you know, will say about it, they're

1253
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:21,479
Speaker 6: they're in this specifically to expand the influence of their

1254
01:17:21,520 --> 01:17:25,040
Speaker 6: own party. And you know, when you try to like

1255
01:17:25,200 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 6: actually do your own thing, this stuff happens.

1256
01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:31,599
Speaker 8: Yeah, one hundred percent.

1257
01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:37,680
Speaker 9: It's also really telling that despite the fact that you know,

1258
01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:40,560
Speaker 9: some of these groups are like known for undermining campaigns

1259
01:17:40,600 --> 01:17:42,960
Speaker 9: in this way, or for harassing staffers that you know,

1260
01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:46,920
Speaker 9: don't play ball with them or whatever, that they continue

1261
01:17:47,120 --> 01:17:48,599
Speaker 9: to do the entriest thing.

1262
01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:50,439
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1263
01:17:51,439 --> 01:17:52,800
Speaker 8: Yeah, I don't have.

1264
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:56,559
Speaker 9: Any good ideas for how to subvert that, but I'm

1265
01:17:56,600 --> 01:17:58,439
Speaker 9: sure dear listeners will send me many of them.

1266
01:17:59,560 --> 01:17:59,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1267
01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:02,880
Speaker 6: I think also at some point we're gonna do the

1268
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:07,720
Speaker 6: micro We're gonna do the micro sect episode Micro to

1269
01:18:07,880 --> 01:18:10,800
Speaker 6: the to like introduce people to the basics of like, hey,

1270
01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:15,160
Speaker 6: you are like the range of tiny political parties in

1271
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:18,080
Speaker 6: the US that are actually cults that show up at

1272
01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:22,600
Speaker 6: protests all the time. So yeah, maybe maybe maybe that

1273
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:24,200
Speaker 6: will help too, because I think a lot of it

1274
01:18:24,360 --> 01:18:26,600
Speaker 6: is people just you know, they're you run into like

1275
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:29,720
Speaker 6: the World Workers Party, and like, you don't know that

1276
01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:32,639
Speaker 6: this party is a weird cult, right, They're just sort

1277
01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:36,439
Speaker 6: of talking about workers stuff. Yeah, so I think education

1278
01:18:36,520 --> 01:18:40,240
Speaker 6: will help with it too, but the bureaucratic maneuvering stuff

1279
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:43,960
Speaker 6: is like the only thing they're good at because they're

1280
01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:46,160
Speaker 6: all these like weird micro party formations.

1281
01:18:46,720 --> 01:18:47,519
Speaker 2: So I don't know.

1282
01:18:48,200 --> 01:18:53,240
Speaker 9: Yeah, er, I only way that I think might help

1283
01:18:53,360 --> 01:18:57,120
Speaker 9: is you know, horizontalizing the structure somewhat, but then you

1284
01:18:57,200 --> 01:18:59,240
Speaker 9: still run into like the issue of like social capital

1285
01:18:59,320 --> 01:19:02,920
Speaker 9: within that structure. So if you know, somebody is savvy enough,

1286
01:19:03,000 --> 01:19:06,240
Speaker 9: they can still indoctrinate people into a silly cult.

1287
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:07,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1288
01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:08,680
Speaker 6: I mean, I don't know, that's that's just something that

1289
01:19:08,720 --> 01:19:10,720
Speaker 6: you're gonna have to I mean, and we should also

1290
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:14,479
Speaker 6: mention too, like these thing these groups like they work

1291
01:19:14,520 --> 01:19:17,840
Speaker 6: with larger unions too sometimes, Like so one of the

1292
01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:21,280
Speaker 6: most famous examples of this is Pride at Work, which

1293
01:19:21,320 --> 01:19:23,920
Speaker 6: is a really big afl CIO thing, but it's also

1294
01:19:24,040 --> 01:19:27,000
Speaker 6: jointly run with the Party of Socialism Liberation, which is

1295
01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:29,320
Speaker 6: another one of these cults because of a bunch of

1296
01:19:29,439 --> 01:19:33,479
Speaker 6: like long running actions even though like a bunch of

1297
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:37,080
Speaker 6: their really senior staffers unbelief to be transphobic, and you know,

1298
01:19:37,439 --> 01:19:38,960
Speaker 6: there's there's a whole thing there. But yeah, this is

1299
01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:41,880
Speaker 6: something that is not just a problem with independent unions

1300
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:45,240
Speaker 6: and not just a problem with sort of like random locals.

1301
01:19:46,760 --> 01:19:50,960
Speaker 6: It can and does get into actual like national unions.

1302
01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:53,519
Speaker 6: On the other hand, one way to avoid this is

1303
01:19:53,640 --> 01:19:55,920
Speaker 6: to in fact organize your own union and don't let

1304
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:56,200
Speaker 6: them be.

1305
01:19:57,240 --> 01:20:00,360
Speaker 9: So this is actually something that we've thought conscious about

1306
01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:05,479
Speaker 9: with our own union is that on the we sent

1307
01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:08,720
Speaker 9: out a community support forum for people that wanted to

1308
01:20:08,720 --> 01:20:10,960
Speaker 9: show up the data, we announced our campaign, and on

1309
01:20:11,120 --> 01:20:14,120
Speaker 9: the form specifically, we made people tick a box saying

1310
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:17,280
Speaker 9: that they wouldn't endorse or try to fly or for

1311
01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:22,040
Speaker 9: or otherwise promote any group that they might have affiliation with,

1312
01:20:22,439 --> 01:20:27,479
Speaker 9: including political parties or you know, otherwise organizations that are

1313
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:29,679
Speaker 9: not you know, our specific union.

1314
01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:31,800
Speaker 8: And so far that's worked.

1315
01:20:32,439 --> 01:20:35,479
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, I would also say like in our constitution

1316
01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:38,000
Speaker 7: by laws. I don't know if that if it's in

1317
01:20:38,080 --> 01:20:40,320
Speaker 7: the current ones and we're revising them soon anyways. But

1318
01:20:40,360 --> 01:20:42,960
Speaker 7: it's a conversation that we've had before also, like people

1319
01:20:43,200 --> 01:20:47,120
Speaker 7: in like keyboard positions, what, yeah, what kind of affiliations

1320
01:20:47,200 --> 01:20:49,280
Speaker 7: can they have to outside political parties?

1321
01:20:49,360 --> 01:20:51,200
Speaker 2: Like where where are we drawing the line on that?

1322
01:20:51,360 --> 01:20:53,280
Speaker 2: Like that's something that I think we also considered very

1323
01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:56,080
Speaker 2: early on as well for people in the union.

1324
01:20:58,520 --> 01:21:00,599
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think there's another aspec they're too, which

1325
01:21:00,640 --> 01:21:02,559
Speaker 6: is like another thing that can happen to your union

1326
01:21:02,720 --> 01:21:05,040
Speaker 6: is that it gets eaten by the Democratic Party machine.

1327
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:08,160
Speaker 6: And that's happened to I mean, like this is this

1328
01:21:08,280 --> 01:21:10,639
Speaker 6: is a lot of how like these giant business unions

1329
01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:13,400
Speaker 6: became business unions, is they became basically these like lobbying

1330
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:16,639
Speaker 6: firms on behalf of like whatever random like local democratic

1331
01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:20,000
Speaker 6: machine is running, Like this happens to Chicago, Like all

1332
01:21:20,120 --> 01:21:22,320
Speaker 6: the time you get these like just like the most

1333
01:21:22,360 --> 01:21:25,439
Speaker 6: important machine like candidates you've ever seen come out of

1334
01:21:25,439 --> 01:21:28,040
Speaker 6: the Democratic Party who are like guys who are like

1335
01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:30,880
Speaker 6: so comically corrupt that like you know, you're They're like

1336
01:21:30,960 --> 01:21:33,240
Speaker 6: walking down the street and like like bundles of cash

1337
01:21:33,240 --> 01:21:35,240
Speaker 6: are falling out of the suitcases and they're getting endorsed

1338
01:21:35,280 --> 01:21:37,840
Speaker 6: by like the team stars, and it's like, well, you know.

1339
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:41,960
Speaker 3: Okay, I wonder, I wonder what happened there? Legally legally

1340
01:21:42,120 --> 01:21:43,439
Speaker 3: legally conjecture, but.

1341
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:50,640
Speaker 9: You know, who's to say, really, yeah, you know, it

1342
01:21:50,800 --> 01:21:53,720
Speaker 9: just so happens that they have these large briefcases full

1343
01:21:53,760 --> 01:21:57,520
Speaker 9: of cash. Nobody can really say where the cash materialized.

1344
01:21:58,479 --> 01:22:00,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, but amazingly I was actually get to go on

1345
01:22:00,360 --> 01:22:02,600
Speaker 6: a different ranch, but political parties. So I'm going to

1346
01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:04,160
Speaker 6: circle back to there to close this out. Which is

1347
01:22:04,400 --> 01:22:06,519
Speaker 6: one of the nice things about independent unions is that

1348
01:22:07,400 --> 01:22:09,360
Speaker 6: you know, it's something they all three of you were

1349
01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:13,760
Speaker 6: started getting at, which is that, like employers have been

1350
01:22:13,880 --> 01:22:18,479
Speaker 6: fighting these sort of large corporate unions business unions for

1351
01:22:18,680 --> 01:22:21,559
Speaker 6: like one hundred years now, right. They know how they operate,

1352
01:22:21,680 --> 01:22:23,559
Speaker 6: they know how their campaigns work, they know what levers

1353
01:22:23,600 --> 01:22:25,960
Speaker 6: to push against them. On the other hand, they have

1354
01:22:26,080 --> 01:22:29,679
Speaker 6: not been fighting you specifically, random listener of this show,

1355
01:22:30,840 --> 01:22:34,280
Speaker 6: and you, specifically random listener of this show, and your

1356
01:22:34,320 --> 01:22:36,479
Speaker 6: coworkers can do things to surprise them and can do

1357
01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:38,800
Speaker 6: things in ways that they don't understand, and you know,

1358
01:22:38,960 --> 01:22:41,720
Speaker 6: you have we have a moment like right now, Like

1359
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:45,400
Speaker 6: in like five years, they'll probably have worked out a

1360
01:22:45,400 --> 01:22:47,519
Speaker 6: bunch of stuff about how to break independent unions. But

1361
01:22:48,200 --> 01:22:51,720
Speaker 6: right now, like literally right now, we have a we

1362
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:55,360
Speaker 6: have a master strategic advantage because their playbook wasn't written

1363
01:22:55,479 --> 01:22:57,400
Speaker 6: to deal with people who are running these sort of

1364
01:22:57,560 --> 01:23:00,679
Speaker 6: like very low to the ground, very agile, very nimble,

1365
01:23:00,920 --> 01:23:04,280
Speaker 6: very sort of like you know, these spontaneous and creative campaigns,

1366
01:23:04,400 --> 01:23:07,760
Speaker 6: and you can use that to beat the crap out

1367
01:23:07,800 --> 01:23:10,200
Speaker 6: of your boss and get more money from them. So

1368
01:23:12,120 --> 01:23:15,880
Speaker 6: this is the BA endorsement of doing doing fun things

1369
01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:16,840
Speaker 6: with unions.

1370
01:23:16,479 --> 01:23:17,719
Speaker 3: That your bosses don't expect.

1371
01:23:18,360 --> 01:23:20,840
Speaker 6: Hell yeah, Yeah. So I think unless there's anything else

1372
01:23:21,320 --> 01:23:23,960
Speaker 6: where where else can people find you, We'll have a

1373
01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:26,800
Speaker 6: link to your link tree in the description. Is there

1374
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:29,400
Speaker 6: anywhere else like social media stuff where people can find

1375
01:23:29,479 --> 01:23:29,880
Speaker 6: the union?

1376
01:23:32,240 --> 01:23:32,400
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1377
01:23:32,479 --> 01:23:36,559
Speaker 7: Our social media for Twitter and Instagram is BBI Union

1378
01:23:36,880 --> 01:23:40,400
Speaker 7: and then on TikTok, I believe it is BBIU sixteen.

1379
01:23:43,479 --> 01:23:43,679
Speaker 2: Cool.

1380
01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:47,360
Speaker 6: We will have that in the description too. Yeah, and

1381
01:23:47,520 --> 01:23:50,200
Speaker 6: thank you all so much for coming on. And yeah,

1382
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:52,439
Speaker 6: make make NESTLEI bleed for us.

1383
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:56,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, thanks so much for having us. We can't say

1384
01:23:56,240 --> 01:23:57,160
Speaker 8: how much we appreciate it.

1385
01:23:57,360 --> 01:23:58,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you, of course.

1386
01:23:59,439 --> 01:24:01,280
Speaker 6: And yeah, this has been taken happened here. You can

1387
01:24:01,360 --> 01:24:05,200
Speaker 6: find us in the usual places. And yeah, you too

1388
01:24:05,280 --> 01:24:07,320
Speaker 6: can also go start your own union and make your

1389
01:24:07,360 --> 01:24:08,000
Speaker 6: bosses suffer.

1390
01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:23,280
Speaker 1: Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Robert Evans, and

1391
01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:27,080
Speaker 1: this is a podcast about things falling apart. This week,

1392
01:24:27,240 --> 01:24:30,639
Speaker 1: the thing falling apart was my bedroom. Allow me to explain,

1393
01:24:31,439 --> 01:24:33,880
Speaker 1: three years or so ago, I was finally able to

1394
01:24:33,920 --> 01:24:36,519
Speaker 1: buy a house or at least, you know, get a mortgage.

1395
01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:40,040
Speaker 1: This allowed me to achieve a very stupid lifelong dream,

1396
01:24:40,160 --> 01:24:43,200
Speaker 1: which was to finally own a waterbed. I know you're

1397
01:24:43,240 --> 01:24:45,320
Speaker 1: wondering what all of this has to do with solar power,

1398
01:24:45,360 --> 01:24:47,479
Speaker 1: and I swear there will be an answer to that question.

1399
01:24:47,960 --> 01:24:49,600
Speaker 1: I also want to make it clear upfront that this

1400
01:24:49,760 --> 01:24:52,160
Speaker 1: is not an ad. Some of the equipment I tested

1401
01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:54,720
Speaker 1: was provided for free as review units, some of it

1402
01:24:54,840 --> 01:24:57,400
Speaker 1: was purchased with my own money, and some with company money.

1403
01:24:57,680 --> 01:24:59,400
Speaker 1: I'll try to make it pretty clear at each point,

1404
01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:02,400
Speaker 1: but I promise it doesn't matter ari my opinions on

1405
01:25:02,479 --> 01:25:05,519
Speaker 1: any specific product. No one paid us in any way

1406
01:25:05,640 --> 01:25:09,360
Speaker 1: for their inclusion in this episode. Anyway, back to my

1407
01:25:09,520 --> 01:25:13,120
Speaker 1: stupid waterbed. The first thing to know about waterbeds is

1408
01:25:13,200 --> 01:25:16,080
Speaker 1: that they are surprisingly cheap. They cost about as much

1409
01:25:16,120 --> 01:25:19,880
Speaker 1: as an equivalent sized mattress. Knew, so not cheap, but

1410
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:22,479
Speaker 1: the one I bought costs the same as any delivery

1411
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:25,760
Speaker 1: mattress sold for, and cheaper than some of them. The

1412
01:25:25,840 --> 01:25:28,080
Speaker 1: reason that most people can't afford a waterbed isn't the

1413
01:25:28,160 --> 01:25:30,640
Speaker 1: actual cost of the bed itself. It's that landlords are

1414
01:25:30,720 --> 01:25:32,680
Speaker 1: terrified of the things, and so you can't get one

1415
01:25:32,760 --> 01:25:36,200
Speaker 1: if you don't own your own home. In case you're curious,

1416
01:25:36,600 --> 01:25:39,559
Speaker 1: my desire to own a waterbed is entirely the result

1417
01:25:39,600 --> 01:25:41,960
Speaker 1: of the fact that, as a small child, my aunt

1418
01:25:42,040 --> 01:25:44,080
Speaker 1: and uncle fell upon hard times and had to live

1419
01:25:44,120 --> 01:25:46,840
Speaker 1: with us for a while. Then for another while they

1420
01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:50,000
Speaker 1: lived elsewhere, but their stuff stayed with us. That stuff

1421
01:25:50,160 --> 01:25:53,360
Speaker 1: included a waterbed, and for a few glorious months it

1422
01:25:53,560 --> 01:25:56,840
Speaker 1: was my waterbed. I have craved the insane high of

1423
01:25:56,960 --> 01:26:00,920
Speaker 1: waterbed ownership ever since. For three perfect years. Then I

1424
01:26:01,040 --> 01:26:03,920
Speaker 1: slept in wavy comfort until about two days before I

1425
01:26:04,000 --> 01:26:07,439
Speaker 1: wrote this episode. My bed sprang a pinhole leak. I

1426
01:26:07,479 --> 01:26:09,680
Speaker 1: don't know how you might guess a cat, but the

1427
01:26:09,720 --> 01:26:12,919
Speaker 1: actual bladder that contains the water is inside and underneath

1428
01:26:12,920 --> 01:26:16,920
Speaker 1: a very thick, padded frame that cat claws can't really puncture.

1429
01:26:17,280 --> 01:26:19,200
Speaker 1: I should also note that the bladder sits inside a

1430
01:26:19,360 --> 01:26:22,080
Speaker 1: vinyl sort of soft cage, so that when it sprang

1431
01:26:22,160 --> 01:26:24,040
Speaker 1: a leak, it got some of my sheets wet, but

1432
01:26:24,120 --> 01:26:27,759
Speaker 1: it did not cause damage to my home anyway. Because

1433
01:26:27,800 --> 01:26:30,040
Speaker 1: waterbeds are the kind of product that only an insane

1434
01:26:30,120 --> 01:26:33,080
Speaker 1: manchild would dare to own, fixing a hole in one

1435
01:26:33,320 --> 01:26:36,559
Speaker 1: is not the same as performing maintenance on your regular mattress,

1436
01:26:36,880 --> 01:26:40,040
Speaker 1: because the kinds of beds that reasonable people own don't

1437
01:26:40,120 --> 01:26:42,840
Speaker 1: spring leaks. To patch the leak, then I had to

1438
01:26:42,920 --> 01:26:45,479
Speaker 1: purchase a patch kit. But you can't apply a patch

1439
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:48,200
Speaker 1: kit to what is effectively a soft bladder filled with

1440
01:26:48,360 --> 01:26:51,120
Speaker 1: roughly a metric ton of water. I did do the

1441
01:26:51,200 --> 01:26:54,400
Speaker 1: bare minimum of research here, and king sized waterbeds weigh

1442
01:26:54,560 --> 01:26:57,720
Speaker 1: around two thousand pounds. Now that's not all water weight,

1443
01:26:57,800 --> 01:27:00,439
Speaker 1: but it is basically all water weight. I bring this

1444
01:27:00,560 --> 01:27:03,479
Speaker 1: up because I'm proud of myself for guessing right. So

1445
01:27:04,000 --> 01:27:06,519
Speaker 1: to apply the patch we had to first drain the bed,

1446
01:27:06,680 --> 01:27:09,759
Speaker 1: which necessitated attaching a hose to one of the spigots

1447
01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:12,400
Speaker 1: through which we had originally filled the bed. Because of

1448
01:27:12,439 --> 01:27:14,400
Speaker 1: the layout of my home and the ground outside of

1449
01:27:14,439 --> 01:27:16,640
Speaker 1: the window where we intended to pour the water, we

1450
01:27:16,720 --> 01:27:19,760
Speaker 1: couldn't get the hosts started without assistance, the kind of

1451
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:22,840
Speaker 1: assistance that you would say, need to suck gasoline free

1452
01:27:22,880 --> 01:27:26,639
Speaker 1: if a stranger's truck were you hard up for fuel money. Thankfully,

1453
01:27:26,920 --> 01:27:29,040
Speaker 1: my roommate had a wet back which we were able

1454
01:27:29,080 --> 01:27:31,639
Speaker 1: to hook up to the hose, but how to power

1455
01:27:31,760 --> 01:27:34,880
Speaker 1: the wetback well. We could have run an extra long

1456
01:27:34,960 --> 01:27:37,799
Speaker 1: extension cord, but mine were all in use for various

1457
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:40,920
Speaker 1: insane projects around the farm, and instead I opted to

1458
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:43,120
Speaker 1: wheel out the solar generator that I had filled with

1459
01:27:43,200 --> 01:27:45,679
Speaker 1: the beneficence of the Sun God Raw just a couple

1460
01:27:45,720 --> 01:27:49,080
Speaker 1: of days earlier. The generator was one of two similar

1461
01:27:49,160 --> 01:27:52,559
Speaker 1: products I tested for this episode, a Jackery SG two

1462
01:27:52,600 --> 01:27:54,760
Speaker 1: thousand plus, which had been sent to me by the

1463
01:27:54,800 --> 01:27:58,040
Speaker 1: good people at Jackery in previous weeks. I'd tested it

1464
01:27:58,160 --> 01:28:00,640
Speaker 1: by powering my deep freeze and a refer refrigerator, and

1465
01:28:00,720 --> 01:28:03,720
Speaker 1: in case you're wondering with the panels outside in the sun.

1466
01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:05,880
Speaker 1: I got a little over a day before things ran

1467
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:07,920
Speaker 1: dry on my refrigerator. If I'd had the panels in

1468
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:10,040
Speaker 1: a better position, I could have had longer and the

1469
01:28:10,120 --> 01:28:12,960
Speaker 1: deep freeze it would have been able to power essentially indefinitely,

1470
01:28:13,040 --> 01:28:17,120
Speaker 1: because deep freezes are actually insanely efficient machines. I also

1471
01:28:17,240 --> 01:28:18,880
Speaker 1: used it to run a heat gun for my friend's

1472
01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:21,160
Speaker 1: art project, which is about as intense a test of

1473
01:28:21,320 --> 01:28:23,760
Speaker 1: output as you can run a battery through short of

1474
01:28:23,840 --> 01:28:27,000
Speaker 1: powering your home, and it handles that. In terms of specs,

1475
01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:29,439
Speaker 1: this battery is part of a more modular system that

1476
01:28:29,520 --> 01:28:31,640
Speaker 1: you could wire in to power your home or off

1477
01:28:31,720 --> 01:28:34,400
Speaker 1: grid setup. You can actually attach this to your breaker.

1478
01:28:34,880 --> 01:28:37,519
Speaker 1: It has a maximum output of six thousand watts in

1479
01:28:37,680 --> 01:28:41,000
Speaker 1: parallel connection and one twenty to two forty expandable voltage.

1480
01:28:41,439 --> 01:28:43,680
Speaker 1: For a rough idea of what that means, it can

1481
01:28:43,800 --> 01:28:47,599
Speaker 1: power most household electronics and even power tools for a while.

1482
01:28:48,040 --> 01:28:50,040
Speaker 1: You'd get about one and a half hours of running

1483
01:28:50,040 --> 01:28:52,360
Speaker 1: a home as unit, and more like two two and

1484
01:28:52,400 --> 01:28:54,400
Speaker 1: a half. You know, with a portable unit or a

1485
01:28:54,479 --> 01:28:58,120
Speaker 1: window unit, you could charge this thing too full in

1486
01:28:58,280 --> 01:29:00,840
Speaker 1: two hours with good sunlight. If you had six two

1487
01:29:00,960 --> 01:29:04,360
Speaker 1: hundred watt panels attached in perfect sunlight, which is another

1488
01:29:04,439 --> 01:29:07,160
Speaker 1: three thousand or so dollars in panels. But that's not

1489
01:29:07,280 --> 01:29:09,960
Speaker 1: an insignificant thing to be able to do, mind you,

1490
01:29:10,200 --> 01:29:12,640
Speaker 1: that would mean just running your ac most of the

1491
01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:16,040
Speaker 1: day and nothing else. Neither of these are cheap products.

1492
01:29:16,320 --> 01:29:19,839
Speaker 1: In Jackery's case, the battery itself runs about two thousand dollars.

1493
01:29:20,320 --> 01:29:22,920
Speaker 1: I understand that's out of reach, perhaps wildly so for

1494
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:25,599
Speaker 1: a lot of people. We will be talking about cheaper

1495
01:29:25,720 --> 01:29:28,320
Speaker 1: options at the end, but it is an unavoidable fact

1496
01:29:28,400 --> 01:29:31,679
Speaker 1: that unless you are a skilled electrician and scavenger, setting

1497
01:29:31,720 --> 01:29:37,240
Speaker 1: up substantial solar systems costs money period. Jackery actually represents

1498
01:29:37,280 --> 01:29:39,439
Speaker 1: one of the more affordable options for a plug and

1499
01:29:39,520 --> 01:29:42,360
Speaker 1: play home backup system that is also portable, i e.

1500
01:29:42,800 --> 01:29:45,280
Speaker 1: Can be taken camping or hauled away with your shit

1501
01:29:45,560 --> 01:29:49,160
Speaker 1: during an evacuation. I should note that you can connect

1502
01:29:49,200 --> 01:29:52,120
Speaker 1: the Jackery SG two thousand plus directly to your breaker,

1503
01:29:52,160 --> 01:29:55,040
Speaker 1: and also connect the battery to other similar Jackery battery

1504
01:29:55,160 --> 01:29:58,560
Speaker 1: generators to g additional capacity and output from it. I

1505
01:29:58,680 --> 01:30:01,680
Speaker 1: tested another solar gener radar system for this episode, the

1506
01:30:01,760 --> 01:30:04,800
Speaker 1: Geniverse Home Power O two, which was provided to me

1507
01:30:05,000 --> 01:30:09,200
Speaker 1: by Genniverse. Both the Genniverse and Jackery systems are similar

1508
01:30:09,360 --> 01:30:11,560
Speaker 1: enough that they can use each other's solar panels and

1509
01:30:11,760 --> 01:30:15,920
Speaker 1: operate in basically the same manner. Jackery's product is cheaper.

1510
01:30:16,200 --> 01:30:19,000
Speaker 1: Other reviews I've read suggests the Geniverse system might be

1511
01:30:19,120 --> 01:30:23,000
Speaker 1: more robust, lasting longer over time. It is certainly heavier

1512
01:30:23,040 --> 01:30:25,960
Speaker 1: and thus has a higher capacity around twenty four hundred

1513
01:30:26,000 --> 01:30:28,040
Speaker 1: watt hours as opposed to a little over two thousand

1514
01:30:28,080 --> 01:30:31,240
Speaker 1: for the Jackery system. Both of these can be the

1515
01:30:31,320 --> 01:30:34,160
Speaker 1: basis of an off grid or full backup power system

1516
01:30:34,280 --> 01:30:36,680
Speaker 1: for your home, and we'll be talking about home off

1517
01:30:36,760 --> 01:30:39,599
Speaker 1: grid power in future episodes. I want to make clear

1518
01:30:39,680 --> 01:30:42,200
Speaker 1: upfront that what I'm advising you on today is the

1519
01:30:42,360 --> 01:30:45,920
Speaker 1: quality and utility of different solar generator battery products for

1520
01:30:46,080 --> 01:30:50,080
Speaker 1: emergency power. So let's talk about what emergency means. The

1521
01:30:50,160 --> 01:30:53,880
Speaker 1: primary emergency you might encounter that a battery solar setup

1522
01:30:53,920 --> 01:30:56,400
Speaker 1: would help with is a power outage at your home.

1523
01:30:57,160 --> 01:30:59,519
Speaker 1: In that case, you have a couple of immediate and

1524
01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:02,719
Speaker 1: real life needs. I will list these from most basic

1525
01:31:02,840 --> 01:31:05,839
Speaker 1: and easy cheapest to fill to most expensive and difficult

1526
01:31:05,880 --> 01:31:08,719
Speaker 1: to meet. Number one would be to keep your devices

1527
01:31:08,800 --> 01:31:11,439
Speaker 1: and stuff like flashlights that are chargeable topped off so

1528
01:31:11,520 --> 01:31:13,880
Speaker 1: you can keep in contact with your community and stay

1529
01:31:13,920 --> 01:31:16,800
Speaker 1: aware of breaking news on whatever emergency you happen to

1530
01:31:16,880 --> 01:31:19,680
Speaker 1: be in. Being able to entertain yourself with books and

1531
01:31:19,720 --> 01:31:22,240
Speaker 1: movies does, in my view, count as one purpose for

1532
01:31:22,400 --> 01:31:26,360
Speaker 1: these systems and an emergency, because morale ain't nothing. Number

1533
01:31:26,400 --> 01:31:30,200
Speaker 1: two is being able to run emergency cooling devices, starting

1534
01:31:30,280 --> 01:31:33,200
Speaker 1: with fans and terminating and stuff like window AC units

1535
01:31:33,280 --> 01:31:37,360
Speaker 1: or even portable camping AC units. Number three is being

1536
01:31:37,400 --> 01:31:39,920
Speaker 1: able to keep a fridge going so your food doesn't spoil.

1537
01:31:40,280 --> 01:31:42,760
Speaker 1: If you're prepping for disaster, you should have storable food,

1538
01:31:42,840 --> 01:31:45,280
Speaker 1: anything from freeze dried stuff to beans and rits, etc.

1539
01:31:45,760 --> 01:31:47,439
Speaker 1: But losing all of your shit in an outage is

1540
01:31:47,479 --> 01:31:50,080
Speaker 1: expensive and annoying, and it's nice to be able to avoid.

1541
01:31:50,720 --> 01:31:53,200
Speaker 1: The Most achievable of these systems for a person of

1542
01:31:53,360 --> 01:31:56,440
Speaker 1: normal income is number one, and if you have disposable

1543
01:31:56,479 --> 01:31:59,440
Speaker 1: income at all, you can afford some sort of emergency

1544
01:31:59,560 --> 01:32:01,800
Speaker 1: solars set up to keep your phone or laptop and

1545
01:32:01,880 --> 01:32:05,719
Speaker 1: rechargeable lights going. There are a wide variety of battery

1546
01:32:05,800 --> 01:32:08,360
Speaker 1: packs that have solar panels built into them. I have

1547
01:32:08,439 --> 01:32:09,920
Speaker 1: tried a lot of these over the years, and I

1548
01:32:10,000 --> 01:32:12,040
Speaker 1: have never once been happy with the quality, either of

1549
01:32:12,080 --> 01:32:14,320
Speaker 1: their ability to charge in the sun or to last

1550
01:32:14,400 --> 01:32:17,439
Speaker 1: over time. The system that I currently take with me

1551
01:32:17,520 --> 01:32:19,840
Speaker 1: on trips is made by a company called Goal zero,

1552
01:32:20,080 --> 01:32:23,360
Speaker 1: who produce a variety of solar battery and charger products.

1553
01:32:23,840 --> 01:32:27,280
Speaker 1: I purchase for myself a Nomad thirteen solar panels set,

1554
01:32:27,560 --> 01:32:30,120
Speaker 1: which folds into something that approximates the size of a

1555
01:32:30,240 --> 01:32:32,679
Speaker 1: trapper keeper set you had as a kid in school.

1556
01:32:33,080 --> 01:32:34,880
Speaker 1: I've had this for years. I take it with me

1557
01:32:35,040 --> 01:32:37,479
Speaker 1: on every flight as my carry on. I have it

1558
01:32:37,680 --> 01:32:40,559
Speaker 1: and two batteries, which are different incarnations of Goal Zero's

1559
01:32:40,680 --> 01:32:43,519
Speaker 1: Schirpa one hundred on me wherever I go. The Sriper

1560
01:32:43,560 --> 01:32:46,120
Speaker 1: one hundred has a little three prong outlet you can

1561
01:32:46,240 --> 01:32:49,320
Speaker 1: charge basically any laptop on it. You could even do

1562
01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:52,120
Speaker 1: like emergency power for a computer. I think with it

1563
01:32:53,000 --> 01:32:55,240
Speaker 1: this and one battery would allow me to keep my

1564
01:32:55,360 --> 01:32:59,519
Speaker 1: phone going for emergency purposes indefinitely. Two batteries and shars,

1565
01:32:59,520 --> 01:33:01,840
Speaker 1: I'm able to travel with roughly three or four working

1566
01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:04,479
Speaker 1: days of power for my laptop and phone wherever I go,

1567
01:33:04,800 --> 01:33:07,559
Speaker 1: and that's without me actually trying to recharge them using

1568
01:33:07,600 --> 01:33:11,400
Speaker 1: the panels. You can find various years of this battery

1569
01:33:11,479 --> 01:33:14,400
Speaker 1: model on Amazon or at other retailers, from two hundred

1570
01:33:14,400 --> 01:33:17,599
Speaker 1: dollars on up. The latest model retails for three hundred

1571
01:33:17,640 --> 01:33:21,679
Speaker 1: dollars off Goal Zero's website. These batteries are TSA approved,

1572
01:33:21,760 --> 01:33:23,840
Speaker 1: as are the panels. I have never had an issue

1573
01:33:23,880 --> 01:33:28,200
Speaker 1: flying with them. Obviously in different countries, your experience may vary,

1574
01:33:28,280 --> 01:33:31,040
Speaker 1: but I've taken these things to most parts of the world,

1575
01:33:31,080 --> 01:33:34,559
Speaker 1: and again I haven't had an issue. They have varying sizes,

1576
01:33:34,680 --> 01:33:37,080
Speaker 1: but the Nomad one hundred, which is one hundred watt hours,

1577
01:33:37,160 --> 01:33:39,000
Speaker 1: runs about three hundred bucks, So you're looking at five

1578
01:33:39,080 --> 01:33:41,479
Speaker 1: or six hundred dollars for this traveling setup, which is

1579
01:33:41,520 --> 01:33:43,400
Speaker 1: also great to keep in your home and just have

1580
01:33:44,240 --> 01:33:46,240
Speaker 1: less a bit. You know, if you find used versions

1581
01:33:46,280 --> 01:33:49,400
Speaker 1: on eBay or wherever, which is often possible, that's not

1582
01:33:49,479 --> 01:33:52,320
Speaker 1: an insignificant cost. But if you're building an emergency kit

1583
01:33:52,439 --> 01:33:55,679
Speaker 1: over time, most people are capable of bearing that cost

1584
01:33:55,840 --> 01:33:58,960
Speaker 1: again over time. You could just start with the battery,

1585
01:33:58,960 --> 01:34:01,000
Speaker 1: which is the most initially useful part of the kit,

1586
01:34:01,240 --> 01:34:03,240
Speaker 1: and then you could get a panel set six months

1587
01:34:03,320 --> 01:34:03,639
Speaker 1: or whatever.

1588
01:34:03,760 --> 01:34:04,479
Speaker 11: A year later.

1589
01:34:05,000 --> 01:34:07,560
Speaker 1: And this brings me to what I'm talking about quantifiably

1590
01:34:07,800 --> 01:34:10,120
Speaker 1: when I discuss a disaster and what you actually need

1591
01:34:10,280 --> 01:34:13,760
Speaker 1: when we're talking about emergency power in a disaster. It

1592
01:34:13,920 --> 01:34:17,479
Speaker 1: is uncommon for the average US consumer to lose power

1593
01:34:17,600 --> 01:34:19,599
Speaker 1: for more than an hour or two at a time.

1594
01:34:20,160 --> 01:34:23,120
Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, most consumers lost less than two hours

1595
01:34:23,160 --> 01:34:28,120
Speaker 1: of power per year without quote major events. With major events,

1596
01:34:28,200 --> 01:34:30,840
Speaker 1: that number leaped to six hours per person per year

1597
01:34:30,920 --> 01:34:33,519
Speaker 1: on average. In twenty seventeen, it was closer to eight.

1598
01:34:33,840 --> 01:34:37,080
Speaker 1: As we deal with more climate change, more natural disasters,

1599
01:34:37,439 --> 01:34:41,240
Speaker 1: all of these things are going to become inevitably more common.

1600
01:34:41,560 --> 01:34:44,000
Speaker 1: These are also all averages of huge numbers of people

1601
01:34:44,120 --> 01:34:47,200
Speaker 1: in huge areas of terrain. I will guess that the

1602
01:34:47,360 --> 01:34:49,920
Speaker 1: percentage of people listening to this who have as adults

1603
01:34:50,240 --> 01:34:52,160
Speaker 1: lost power for a day or more at a time

1604
01:34:52,360 --> 01:34:56,600
Speaker 1: is very close to one hundred percent. Now, given the averages,

1605
01:34:56,840 --> 01:35:00,639
Speaker 1: you might consider just perching battery power units without sol panels,

1606
01:35:00,680 --> 01:35:03,240
Speaker 1: because in most instances, what you're trying to do is

1607
01:35:03,400 --> 01:35:05,320
Speaker 1: ensure that if your phone is dead and there's a

1608
01:35:05,360 --> 01:35:07,400
Speaker 1: bad storm and you know you run out of power

1609
01:35:07,439 --> 01:35:09,200
Speaker 1: by the time you get home, a two or three

1610
01:35:09,200 --> 01:35:11,880
Speaker 1: hour outage doesn't leave you unable to contact your people

1611
01:35:12,000 --> 01:35:15,400
Speaker 1: or emergency services. I have a fuckload of different portable

1612
01:35:15,400 --> 01:35:17,599
Speaker 1: batteries because I try to keep enough on my work

1613
01:35:17,640 --> 01:35:20,120
Speaker 1: bag wherever I go to function in my job for

1614
01:35:20,240 --> 01:35:22,639
Speaker 1: most of a week without power when I go on trips.

1615
01:35:23,280 --> 01:35:25,400
Speaker 1: This kind of preparation has stood me in good stead

1616
01:35:25,439 --> 01:35:28,360
Speaker 1: in places like Syria, Iraq and the desperate wilds of

1617
01:35:28,400 --> 01:35:30,640
Speaker 1: Seattle that one time. But if you're not going to

1618
01:35:30,720 --> 01:35:33,920
Speaker 1: such terrifying hellscapes, you can probably get a suitable battery

1619
01:35:34,000 --> 01:35:37,120
Speaker 1: that's reasonably tough for under one hundred dollars. And we

1620
01:35:37,200 --> 01:35:40,560
Speaker 1: will continue talking about batteries and talking about you know,

1621
01:35:40,680 --> 01:35:44,040
Speaker 1: next kind of home solutions and eventually cheap solutions. But

1622
01:35:44,160 --> 01:35:48,719
Speaker 1: you know what's not cheap is the products and services

1623
01:35:48,800 --> 01:35:52,479
Speaker 1: that support this podcast. Affordable but not cheap. Anyway, here's

1624
01:35:52,520 --> 01:36:02,120
Speaker 1: these ads. We're back and we're talking thinking about portable batteries,

1625
01:36:02,439 --> 01:36:04,479
Speaker 1: right And my only note here is that if you're

1626
01:36:04,520 --> 01:36:07,559
Speaker 1: buying portable batteries, you know, stuff not necessarily to run

1627
01:36:07,920 --> 01:36:10,000
Speaker 1: on solar, just to have some extra juice with you

1628
01:36:10,080 --> 01:36:12,280
Speaker 1: wherever you'd go to keep it home in an emergency.

1629
01:36:12,880 --> 01:36:16,720
Speaker 1: These fluctuate wildly in quality, and when it comes to

1630
01:36:16,960 --> 01:36:19,280
Speaker 1: disaster kit to something that you need to work in

1631
01:36:19,320 --> 01:36:22,519
Speaker 1: an emergency, it can be worth going with a brand

1632
01:36:22,600 --> 01:36:25,680
Speaker 1: that is a known quantity with a long record and

1633
01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:28,200
Speaker 1: a lot of testing done on their products, rather than

1634
01:36:28,280 --> 01:36:31,320
Speaker 1: whatever the Amazon algorithm spits out when you Google battery.

1635
01:36:31,880 --> 01:36:34,640
Speaker 1: The advantage of a small portable folding setup like the

1636
01:36:34,680 --> 01:36:36,439
Speaker 1: one I have from Goal zero is that you can

1637
01:36:36,479 --> 01:36:38,240
Speaker 1: take it with you and have it on demand if

1638
01:36:38,240 --> 01:36:40,439
Speaker 1: shit happens when you're traveling, or if you have to

1639
01:36:40,520 --> 01:36:44,599
Speaker 1: evacuate and it's idiot proof right. A good option if

1640
01:36:44,640 --> 01:36:46,479
Speaker 1: you just want something in your home to keep your

1641
01:36:46,520 --> 01:36:49,519
Speaker 1: devices topped off, is what I'd call a large small

1642
01:36:49,600 --> 01:36:53,120
Speaker 1: battery generator. These are a couple of steps below products

1643
01:36:53,200 --> 01:36:55,559
Speaker 1: like the Jaggery two thousand to the Geniverse that I tried,

1644
01:36:55,880 --> 01:36:58,439
Speaker 1: but above the handheld little batteries that many of you

1645
01:36:58,600 --> 01:37:02,000
Speaker 1: have already. The two examples of this product category that

1646
01:37:02,040 --> 01:37:04,200
Speaker 1: I have and have tested are the Yeti four hundred

1647
01:37:04,240 --> 01:37:08,000
Speaker 1: from Goal zero and the anchor a n Ker Solix

1648
01:37:08,160 --> 01:37:12,240
Speaker 1: Solix C eight hundred. The Yeti four hundred is the

1649
01:37:12,280 --> 01:37:14,880
Speaker 1: product I purchased with my own money and It's what

1650
01:37:14,960 --> 01:37:17,000
Speaker 1: I've taken with me for years into the mountains when

1651
01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:19,040
Speaker 1: I go shooting or hunting, usually with a set of

1652
01:37:19,080 --> 01:37:22,160
Speaker 1: folding panels. This ensures that if my car dies and

1653
01:37:22,240 --> 01:37:24,160
Speaker 1: I've been dumb enough to let my jumper box that

1654
01:37:24,200 --> 01:37:26,320
Speaker 1: I keep with me die, I have a backup that

1655
01:37:26,360 --> 01:37:28,559
Speaker 1: I can use to charge my jumper box. I also

1656
01:37:28,680 --> 01:37:30,680
Speaker 1: have a convenient way to top off my phone or

1657
01:37:30,760 --> 01:37:33,479
Speaker 1: my E reader or my sat phone, both for normal

1658
01:37:33,600 --> 01:37:36,960
Speaker 1: use and in an emergency. It handles extreme cold and

1659
01:37:37,080 --> 01:37:39,599
Speaker 1: extreme heat well, and that's not always something you can

1660
01:37:39,640 --> 01:37:42,960
Speaker 1: take for granted with batteries. Again, kind of top of

1661
01:37:43,040 --> 01:37:45,120
Speaker 1: the list is that I am an idiot. I don't

1662
01:37:45,160 --> 01:37:48,880
Speaker 1: know much about electricity, and these products are pretty idiot proof.

1663
01:37:49,040 --> 01:37:50,680
Speaker 1: When it comes to my YETI four hundred or the

1664
01:37:50,760 --> 01:37:53,120
Speaker 1: C eight hundred from Anchor, I keep them both plugged

1665
01:37:53,120 --> 01:37:54,800
Speaker 1: into the wall at all times that I can grab

1666
01:37:54,920 --> 01:37:58,280
Speaker 1: either for an emergency. Now, the Solix C eight hundred

1667
01:37:58,320 --> 01:37:59,800
Speaker 1: that I have was sent to me as a review

1668
01:38:00,280 --> 01:38:03,000
Speaker 1: by Solix, and by necessity, I have not been able

1669
01:38:03,040 --> 01:38:05,320
Speaker 1: to subject it to the years of rigorous real life

1670
01:38:05,360 --> 01:38:07,920
Speaker 1: testing that my Goal zero YETI four hundred has endured.

1671
01:38:08,560 --> 01:38:10,960
Speaker 1: I will note that it is well reviewed, and from

1672
01:38:11,000 --> 01:38:13,000
Speaker 1: the exploration I have done on it, which does not

1673
01:38:13,160 --> 01:38:16,160
Speaker 1: include years of testing but does include a decent amount

1674
01:38:16,200 --> 01:38:19,440
Speaker 1: of reading and some testing, I think it's better constructed

1675
01:38:19,479 --> 01:38:22,240
Speaker 1: and more conveniently laid out in the goal zero, and

1676
01:38:22,320 --> 01:38:24,800
Speaker 1: it also gets you about twice the storage nearly eight

1677
01:38:24,920 --> 01:38:27,439
Speaker 1: hundred watt hours as opposed to a bit over four hundred.

1678
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:31,400
Speaker 1: Both products cost the same price around six hundred dollars,

1679
01:38:31,680 --> 01:38:35,639
Speaker 1: although older generations are often available cheaper online. New and used.

1680
01:38:36,280 --> 01:38:38,400
Speaker 1: Either is enough to keep a family of Force phones

1681
01:38:38,600 --> 01:38:41,880
Speaker 1: charged for a two or three day outage without severe rationing.

1682
01:38:41,960 --> 01:38:43,920
Speaker 1: You can get a lot more obviously on the anchor,

1683
01:38:44,720 --> 01:38:47,040
Speaker 1: and you might not want to have someone like gaming

1684
01:38:47,120 --> 01:38:49,320
Speaker 1: on an alien ware laptop or whatever with either, but

1685
01:38:49,400 --> 01:38:51,680
Speaker 1: you can charge your laptops and the like off of them.

1686
01:38:51,720 --> 01:38:53,160
Speaker 1: If you want to watch a movie at the end

1687
01:38:53,160 --> 01:38:55,160
Speaker 1: of the night, you're all huddled together there in the dark.

1688
01:38:55,479 --> 01:38:56,960
Speaker 1: That's not going to be something you have to stress

1689
01:38:57,080 --> 01:39:00,000
Speaker 1: out about too much. Again, theoncre solex is going toe

1690
01:39:00,160 --> 01:39:02,120
Speaker 1: you a lot more juice to play around with, but

1691
01:39:02,200 --> 01:39:04,479
Speaker 1: either should be enough for an average outage if you

1692
01:39:04,600 --> 01:39:06,880
Speaker 1: just keep them plugged in. You can also use them

1693
01:39:06,920 --> 01:39:09,240
Speaker 1: to power a fan during the day. They will not

1694
01:39:09,520 --> 01:39:12,920
Speaker 1: run small AC units. These are worth considering as an

1695
01:39:12,960 --> 01:39:16,200
Speaker 1: intermediate option for the more casual prepper. What you're looking

1696
01:39:16,240 --> 01:39:19,000
Speaker 1: for here is not a full off grid replacement, but

1697
01:39:19,200 --> 01:39:21,599
Speaker 1: something that can provide you with options from more than

1698
01:39:21,680 --> 01:39:25,560
Speaker 1: just basic gadget power. With these big, small batteries, you

1699
01:39:25,600 --> 01:39:28,000
Speaker 1: can run a fan or fans, maybe not long enough

1700
01:39:28,040 --> 01:39:30,360
Speaker 1: for comfort, but in bursts throughout the day to get

1701
01:39:30,400 --> 01:39:33,040
Speaker 1: you through the hottest part of the day during a blackout,

1702
01:39:33,200 --> 01:39:36,439
Speaker 1: during what we call a wet bulb event. This would

1703
01:39:36,439 --> 01:39:39,200
Speaker 1: be the life saving health emergency that a basic solar

1704
01:39:39,240 --> 01:39:42,200
Speaker 1: setup would be most useful in saving you from. For

1705
01:39:42,400 --> 01:39:44,760
Speaker 1: context in case people aren't up to date, a wet

1706
01:39:44,840 --> 01:39:47,919
Speaker 1: bulb event is a weather situation in which the temperature

1707
01:39:48,000 --> 01:39:51,120
Speaker 1: reaches a critical level above eighty eight degrees fahrenheit and

1708
01:39:51,240 --> 01:39:54,040
Speaker 1: does not drop below that point for an extended period

1709
01:39:54,080 --> 01:39:57,360
Speaker 1: of time. If people lack access to effective cooling during

1710
01:39:57,439 --> 01:40:00,720
Speaker 1: heating events like this, they will die. We saw one

1711
01:40:00,760 --> 01:40:02,280
Speaker 1: of these hit a couple of years ago where I

1712
01:40:02,400 --> 01:40:04,880
Speaker 1: live in Portland, Oregon, which has been long famed for

1713
01:40:04,960 --> 01:40:08,120
Speaker 1: its mild temperatures and thus most homes lack central air.

1714
01:40:08,680 --> 01:40:11,120
Speaker 1: During a three day heat wave, temperatures rose to record

1715
01:40:11,240 --> 01:40:13,160
Speaker 1: highs and did not drop low enough at night to

1716
01:40:13,240 --> 01:40:16,280
Speaker 1: allow people any recovery time. More than one hundred of

1717
01:40:16,320 --> 01:40:20,360
Speaker 1: them died. This kind of thing is possible anywhere. If

1718
01:40:20,400 --> 01:40:23,320
Speaker 1: you have central air standard where you live, the grid

1719
01:40:23,439 --> 01:40:25,880
Speaker 1: can always go down, as we've seen happen in Texas

1720
01:40:25,960 --> 01:40:28,840
Speaker 1: over and over again. For someone with money, your best

1721
01:40:28,880 --> 01:40:31,640
Speaker 1: bet might be pairing a portable air conditioner like the

1722
01:40:31,760 --> 01:40:34,760
Speaker 1: Idea Duo, which ranges from five hundred to six hundred

1723
01:40:34,760 --> 01:40:38,040
Speaker 1: dollars on Amazon, with something like the Jackery SG two

1724
01:40:38,080 --> 01:40:41,360
Speaker 1: thousand plus, which with panels and a good sunlight, would

1725
01:40:41,360 --> 01:40:43,479
Speaker 1: allow you to run it during the day at least

1726
01:40:43,520 --> 01:40:46,559
Speaker 1: in a single room. As an aside, this is actually

1727
01:40:46,600 --> 01:40:48,600
Speaker 1: a case in which someone with a window unit is

1728
01:40:48,640 --> 01:40:50,920
Speaker 1: at more of an advantage than someone with central air.

1729
01:40:51,439 --> 01:40:54,519
Speaker 1: You can connect your jaggery directly to the breaker, but

1730
01:40:54,680 --> 01:40:57,040
Speaker 1: without expansion batteries, it's not going to run a whole

1731
01:40:57,120 --> 01:40:59,320
Speaker 1: home long, so you'd want to unplug everything and turn

1732
01:40:59,400 --> 01:41:01,960
Speaker 1: off the lights, running your AC in short bursts, and

1733
01:41:02,120 --> 01:41:05,479
Speaker 1: maintaining discipline with your doors at windows, ideally putting up

1734
01:41:05,520 --> 01:41:08,560
Speaker 1: foil or at least cardboard over the windows to maximize efficiency.

1735
01:41:08,920 --> 01:41:10,519
Speaker 1: If you're just being able to run a fan because

1736
01:41:10,520 --> 01:41:12,720
Speaker 1: you've got a smaller unit, you're probably looking at something like,

1737
01:41:13,160 --> 01:41:15,479
Speaker 1: you know, getting towels and rags wet, putting them over

1738
01:41:15,520 --> 01:41:18,880
Speaker 1: people's chests and faces, and kind of getting directly under

1739
01:41:18,920 --> 01:41:20,479
Speaker 1: the fan for the periods of time that you can

1740
01:41:20,520 --> 01:41:23,519
Speaker 1: afford to run it. Again, we are not talking about

1741
01:41:23,520 --> 01:41:26,960
Speaker 1: the most ideal comfort situations here, we are talking survival.

1742
01:41:27,360 --> 01:41:30,479
Speaker 1: The limitations I found for are generally twofold. One is

1743
01:41:30,520 --> 01:41:33,400
Speaker 1: that even with good sunlight, folding panels like the ones

1744
01:41:33,479 --> 01:41:37,400
Speaker 1: Jackerie and Jennifer ship me don't always hit their advertised wattage.

1745
01:41:37,880 --> 01:41:39,360
Speaker 1: This is because you've got to deal with a lot

1746
01:41:39,439 --> 01:41:42,080
Speaker 1: of other factors, the movement of the sun throughout the day,

1747
01:41:42,400 --> 01:41:45,280
Speaker 1: where shadows fall in your home or property, your access

1748
01:41:45,320 --> 01:41:47,720
Speaker 1: to the roof, how clean the panels are, and under

1749
01:41:47,800 --> 01:41:50,960
Speaker 1: normal use conditions, it is surprisingly easy to get stuff

1750
01:41:51,000 --> 01:41:53,519
Speaker 1: on them. On a sunny spring day in Oregon, I

1751
01:41:53,560 --> 01:41:55,800
Speaker 1: found my two hundred wat Jackery panels tended to get

1752
01:41:55,840 --> 01:41:57,800
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty two one hundred and fifty watts

1753
01:41:57,840 --> 01:42:00,320
Speaker 1: during the most optimal parts of the day. I was

1754
01:42:00,360 --> 01:42:03,320
Speaker 1: able to plug the Jackery panels into the Geniverse generator

1755
01:42:03,360 --> 01:42:06,439
Speaker 1: and vice versa, and I found that Jackerre's panels generally

1756
01:42:06,560 --> 01:42:09,720
Speaker 1: performed ten to fifteen percent better during real life conditions.

1757
01:42:10,400 --> 01:42:12,479
Speaker 1: I looked it up and on paper, the Genniverse has

1758
01:42:12,520 --> 01:42:15,679
Speaker 1: a solar cell efficiency or EFF rating of about twenty

1759
01:42:15,720 --> 01:42:19,160
Speaker 1: three point four percent. Jackery beats them by one percent

1760
01:42:19,240 --> 01:42:21,720
Speaker 1: with an EFF rating of twenty four point three. That

1761
01:42:21,880 --> 01:42:23,599
Speaker 1: is not enough of a difference to matter too much,

1762
01:42:23,800 --> 01:42:25,800
Speaker 1: although I should know that what I saw in real

1763
01:42:25,880 --> 01:42:29,479
Speaker 1: life use was a notable difference. You may experience something

1764
01:42:29,560 --> 01:42:31,960
Speaker 1: different with these panels, with any panels that you get.

1765
01:42:32,120 --> 01:42:34,280
Speaker 1: I can't claim to have tested anything but the ones

1766
01:42:34,360 --> 01:42:37,639
Speaker 1: that they shipped me. The Jackery Explorer two hundred plus

1767
01:42:37,800 --> 01:42:41,400
Speaker 1: is capable of taking fourteen hundred botts of input max,

1768
01:42:41,439 --> 01:42:43,960
Speaker 1: which would be seven sets of panels, although from what

1769
01:42:44,080 --> 01:42:46,160
Speaker 1: the manual says, it can take up to six solar

1770
01:42:46,200 --> 01:42:48,679
Speaker 1: Saga eighty panels to their two hundred wade panels under

1771
01:42:48,720 --> 01:42:52,240
Speaker 1: normal conditions. You can expand all this with added Explorer

1772
01:42:52,320 --> 01:42:55,599
Speaker 1: two thousands running in tandem and up to twelve solar

1773
01:42:55,680 --> 01:42:58,599
Speaker 1: Saga eighties on a single generator but doing that requires

1774
01:42:58,600 --> 01:43:00,760
Speaker 1: some wonky shit with cables, and at that point we're

1775
01:43:00,760 --> 01:43:02,920
Speaker 1: talking about a system beyond what most people are likely

1776
01:43:03,000 --> 01:43:05,560
Speaker 1: to want or need. When it comes to durability, I

1777
01:43:05,600 --> 01:43:08,679
Speaker 1: suspect that both the Jackerie and Genniverse are probably close

1778
01:43:08,760 --> 01:43:13,320
Speaker 1: and functioning. Online reviews give both systems good user reliability ratings.

1779
01:43:13,479 --> 01:43:15,920
Speaker 1: In real world conditions, I had the opportunity to do

1780
01:43:16,080 --> 01:43:18,000
Speaker 1: something that you never want to do in real life

1781
01:43:18,040 --> 01:43:20,240
Speaker 1: with the device you've paid for, which was work one

1782
01:43:20,280 --> 01:43:23,400
Speaker 1: of these systems to death. It shows the Genniverse and

1783
01:43:23,479 --> 01:43:26,400
Speaker 1: the torture test I used basically involved keeping it outside,

1784
01:43:26,479 --> 01:43:29,080
Speaker 1: charging and providing power at a fairly low trickle for

1785
01:43:29,200 --> 01:43:31,719
Speaker 1: twelve days of intermittent rain and wind in the Pacific

1786
01:43:31,800 --> 01:43:34,640
Speaker 1: Northwest late winter. We got about two inches of rain

1787
01:43:34,720 --> 01:43:36,960
Speaker 1: during this time, and that was enough to eventually kill

1788
01:43:37,040 --> 01:43:39,720
Speaker 1: the generator, but it took close to two weeks of

1789
01:43:39,840 --> 01:43:43,040
Speaker 1: downright irresponsible treatment. We are talking the kind of neglect

1790
01:43:43,120 --> 01:43:45,799
Speaker 1: you would not subject a product like this too without

1791
01:43:45,920 --> 01:43:49,400
Speaker 1: no other option. In subsequent tests with the Jaggery, I've

1792
01:43:49,439 --> 01:43:51,920
Speaker 1: been able to keep it operating outdoors in bad weather

1793
01:43:52,080 --> 01:43:55,320
Speaker 1: without damage through taking minimal measures to shield the generator.

1794
01:43:55,479 --> 01:43:57,920
Speaker 1: The least I did was stick a plastic home depot

1795
01:43:57,960 --> 01:44:00,680
Speaker 1: crate lid above it, literally at it down on top

1796
01:44:00,720 --> 01:44:02,479
Speaker 1: of the unit to stop water from just hitting the

1797
01:44:02,560 --> 01:44:05,680
Speaker 1: ports on the sides and back directly. The most elaborate

1798
01:44:05,760 --> 01:44:08,400
Speaker 1: protective set up outdoors was a simple tarp cover and

1799
01:44:08,479 --> 01:44:10,519
Speaker 1: making sure it was elevated a bit above the ground.

1800
01:44:11,200 --> 01:44:13,160
Speaker 1: When it comes to which of these systems would be

1801
01:44:13,240 --> 01:44:15,840
Speaker 1: best for you, the primary difference between the Giniverse and

1802
01:44:15,880 --> 01:44:19,120
Speaker 1: the Jackery is that the Ginniverse is higher capacity twenty

1803
01:44:19,160 --> 01:44:21,360
Speaker 1: four hundred nineteen watt hours as opposed to a little

1804
01:44:21,400 --> 01:44:24,560
Speaker 1: over twenty forty two for the Jackery. This means that

1805
01:44:24,600 --> 01:44:26,640
Speaker 1: without input, you can run a normal fridge off the

1806
01:44:26,720 --> 01:44:30,280
Speaker 1: Giniverse for about six hours, and goodsn you can recharge

1807
01:44:30,320 --> 01:44:33,320
Speaker 1: it fully in eight hours with two Geniverse solar powered

1808
01:44:33,360 --> 01:44:36,759
Speaker 1: two panels. The Jackery system will recharge in a similar

1809
01:44:36,840 --> 01:44:39,720
Speaker 1: timeframe under optimal conditions and give you a bit less

1810
01:44:39,800 --> 01:44:42,360
Speaker 1: usable power. It has the benefit of being almost twenty

1811
01:44:42,400 --> 01:44:46,240
Speaker 1: pounds lighter and significantly friendlier in design. For reasons that

1812
01:44:46,320 --> 01:44:50,280
Speaker 1: elude explanation, the Giniverse lacks a telescoping handle or wheels

1813
01:44:50,320 --> 01:44:52,559
Speaker 1: to help you maneuver it. Into or out of position.

1814
01:44:53,080 --> 01:44:55,759
Speaker 1: This sucks because it's heavy, and if it's not wired

1815
01:44:55,800 --> 01:44:58,360
Speaker 1: into your breaker and you're using this for an emergency,

1816
01:44:58,640 --> 01:45:00,479
Speaker 1: you might need to move it around so that you

1817
01:45:00,560 --> 01:45:03,160
Speaker 1: can have the panels in different positions to take advantage

1818
01:45:03,200 --> 01:45:06,360
Speaker 1: of the sun. This also makes the geniverse less useful

1819
01:45:06,400 --> 01:45:09,880
Speaker 1: than the Jaggery in normal daily life tasks. I started

1820
01:45:09,920 --> 01:45:12,799
Speaker 1: this episode with a rather ridiculous story about my waterbed,

1821
01:45:12,880 --> 01:45:15,120
Speaker 1: but I've actually found quite a few tasks at which

1822
01:45:15,200 --> 01:45:17,880
Speaker 1: having a weeelable battery capable of this kind of output

1823
01:45:18,040 --> 01:45:21,280
Speaker 1: is handy. Basically, any power tool that you are likely

1824
01:45:21,360 --> 01:45:23,879
Speaker 1: to own will run off of either of these systems,

1825
01:45:24,200 --> 01:45:26,320
Speaker 1: but only the Jaggery is friendly enough to want to

1826
01:45:26,400 --> 01:45:29,439
Speaker 1: move around outdoors to take advantage of this fact. And

1827
01:45:29,560 --> 01:45:31,519
Speaker 1: this kind of gets us to the crux of a

1828
01:45:31,640 --> 01:45:33,919
Speaker 1: question some of you have been asking this whole episode,

1829
01:45:34,520 --> 01:45:38,800
Speaker 1: how practical are any of these solutions. My answer is complicated,

1830
01:45:38,880 --> 01:45:41,479
Speaker 1: but I think fair. If you can't or aren't going

1831
01:45:41,560 --> 01:45:44,240
Speaker 1: to expend the energy to become competent with solar power

1832
01:45:44,280 --> 01:45:46,559
Speaker 1: to the extent that someone living off grid would generally

1833
01:45:46,640 --> 01:45:50,599
Speaker 1: want to be, these are exceptional solutions so long as

1834
01:45:50,640 --> 01:45:53,720
Speaker 1: you can afford them. In both cases, you're looking at

1835
01:45:53,760 --> 01:45:56,160
Speaker 1: around three thousand dollars for a setup that could power

1836
01:45:56,320 --> 01:45:59,400
Speaker 1: anything in your home and would handle all necessary tasks

1837
01:45:59,600 --> 01:46:01,760
Speaker 1: for law longer than the length of an average blackout.

1838
01:46:02,280 --> 01:46:05,240
Speaker 1: The Jackerree and Geniverse systems are also future capable. You

1839
01:46:05,360 --> 01:46:08,240
Speaker 1: can expand both with added batteries over time and add

1840
01:46:08,280 --> 01:46:10,920
Speaker 1: in more panel capacity up to a point that makes

1841
01:46:10,960 --> 01:46:14,400
Speaker 1: them quite attractive if you can afford them. My personal

1842
01:46:14,479 --> 01:46:17,760
Speaker 1: recommendation would be for the Jackery over the Geniverse for

1843
01:46:17,960 --> 01:46:20,920
Speaker 1: most people for a couple of reasons. Please note that

1844
01:46:20,960 --> 01:46:24,000
Speaker 1: I received review units from both companies and money from neither,

1845
01:46:24,160 --> 01:46:26,720
Speaker 1: so I have no vested interest in picking one over

1846
01:46:26,840 --> 01:46:30,400
Speaker 1: the other. One reason that I chose the Jackery Explorer

1847
01:46:30,439 --> 01:46:32,920
Speaker 1: two thousand is that it is a bit cheaper nineteen

1848
01:46:33,040 --> 01:46:35,240
Speaker 1: hundred for the base system and four hundred and seventy

1849
01:46:35,320 --> 01:46:37,879
Speaker 1: nine for each set of two hundred watt folding panels.

1850
01:46:38,400 --> 01:46:40,840
Speaker 1: Compare that to the Geniverse Home Power two Pro, which

1851
01:46:40,880 --> 01:46:43,479
Speaker 1: starts at two two hundred and ninety nine dollars and

1852
01:46:43,560 --> 01:46:46,439
Speaker 1: thirty four hundred dollars for the generator with two two

1853
01:46:46,560 --> 01:46:50,560
Speaker 1: hundred watt panels. The Jackery is also meaningfully easier to

1854
01:46:50,640 --> 01:46:53,280
Speaker 1: use in recreational situations, so it is a system that

1855
01:46:53,360 --> 01:46:55,880
Speaker 1: the average person will get more use out of. You

1856
01:46:55,960 --> 01:46:58,520
Speaker 1: can take it camping easily, you can use it for overlanding,

1857
01:46:58,720 --> 01:47:01,040
Speaker 1: and you can have it ready for another emergency. I

1858
01:47:01,120 --> 01:47:02,960
Speaker 1: will note that if you have a system like this,

1859
01:47:03,120 --> 01:47:05,040
Speaker 1: you will surprise yourself with how often it comes in

1860
01:47:05,080 --> 01:47:08,439
Speaker 1: a handy for simple tasks. What I like about both

1861
01:47:08,479 --> 01:47:11,680
Speaker 1: systems is again their future compatible. You can start with

1862
01:47:11,800 --> 01:47:14,200
Speaker 1: the base system and then add a couple of panels,

1863
01:47:14,240 --> 01:47:16,200
Speaker 1: and as you save more money, you can add an

1864
01:47:16,200 --> 01:47:18,920
Speaker 1: additional battery packs and panels to give you both more

1865
01:47:18,960 --> 01:47:22,240
Speaker 1: capacity and more input, with the goal of eventually storing

1866
01:47:22,280 --> 01:47:24,400
Speaker 1: a day or a couple of days of power and

1867
01:47:24,520 --> 01:47:28,000
Speaker 1: being able to run your home minimally during extended emergencies.

1868
01:47:28,560 --> 01:47:30,720
Speaker 1: The shortcoming that you'll find with either system is that

1869
01:47:30,760 --> 01:47:32,400
Speaker 1: if you have a normal home, it will cost as

1870
01:47:32,479 --> 01:47:34,200
Speaker 1: much as a nice used car to have a setup

1871
01:47:34,240 --> 01:47:36,360
Speaker 1: that could run your house for extended periods of time,

1872
01:47:36,640 --> 01:47:39,960
Speaker 1: let alone indefinitely. A typical home AC unit can burn

1873
01:47:40,040 --> 01:47:43,280
Speaker 1: something like fourteen thousand kilowat hours per day, and that's

1874
01:47:43,439 --> 01:47:46,559
Speaker 1: just half of what an average home draws heating amounts

1875
01:47:46,600 --> 01:47:48,560
Speaker 1: to a comparable draw. So while these systems can be

1876
01:47:48,640 --> 01:47:51,880
Speaker 1: expanded significantly with additional batteries, if you're dealing with an

1877
01:47:51,880 --> 01:47:55,520
Speaker 1: outage that extends past several days, you will encounter severe limitations.

1878
01:47:56,280 --> 01:47:58,800
Speaker 1: This brings me to the most impressive but least accessible

1879
01:47:58,880 --> 01:48:01,519
Speaker 1: piece of gear that I test for these episodes, The

1880
01:48:01,680 --> 01:48:05,439
Speaker 1: Anchor Solick's F thirty eight hundred portable power station. This

1881
01:48:05,560 --> 01:48:08,439
Speaker 1: holds about three eight hundred and forty watt hours of

1882
01:48:08,520 --> 01:48:12,720
Speaker 1: electricity and can output six thousand watts if necessary. You

1883
01:48:12,840 --> 01:48:15,680
Speaker 1: can charge your electric car or run a welding rig

1884
01:48:15,800 --> 01:48:18,439
Speaker 1: off of this thing. It can be expanded with additional

1885
01:48:18,479 --> 01:48:20,639
Speaker 1: battery storage, and if you had thirty or forty grand

1886
01:48:20,720 --> 01:48:22,760
Speaker 1: to spend, you could wire this thing up to power

1887
01:48:22,800 --> 01:48:25,280
Speaker 1: your house for close to a week without sunlight. The

1888
01:48:25,439 --> 01:48:28,600
Speaker 1: F thirty eight hundred itself costs four thousand dollars, and

1889
01:48:28,680 --> 01:48:30,719
Speaker 1: you can run two of them in tandem with twelve

1890
01:48:30,800 --> 01:48:32,840
Speaker 1: battery packs each to power your home for about two

1891
01:48:32,880 --> 01:48:35,280
Speaker 1: weeks for just the cost of at this point a

1892
01:48:35,400 --> 01:48:38,880
Speaker 1: rather nice car that is wildly out of reach for

1893
01:48:38,960 --> 01:48:41,439
Speaker 1: most people, But if you can afford it, the Anchor

1894
01:48:41,560 --> 01:48:44,559
Speaker 1: is a really cool system. There's been a tremendous amount

1895
01:48:44,560 --> 01:48:46,479
Speaker 1: of thought put into everything, from how the device is

1896
01:48:46,560 --> 01:48:48,920
Speaker 1: constructed and laid out to how you carry it. I

1897
01:48:49,040 --> 01:48:51,360
Speaker 1: particularly appreciate the fact that you can wheel it like

1898
01:48:51,400 --> 01:48:53,439
Speaker 1: a big suitcase or lay it on its side, where

1899
01:48:53,439 --> 01:48:56,160
Speaker 1: it has additional pop out handles to enable you to

1900
01:48:56,200 --> 01:48:59,599
Speaker 1: carry it in multiple different ways. All of Anchor's products

1901
01:48:59,680 --> 01:49:02,000
Speaker 1: feel premium, and the metal handles that I said pop

1902
01:49:02,080 --> 01:49:04,840
Speaker 1: out are like metal. They're very solid. Everything has a

1903
01:49:04,920 --> 01:49:07,400
Speaker 1: clean interface and what I would describe as an exceedingly

1904
01:49:07,520 --> 01:49:10,439
Speaker 1: livable industrial design. If you happen to be one of

1905
01:49:10,479 --> 01:49:13,160
Speaker 1: the people who can consider putting down four thousand dollars

1906
01:49:13,240 --> 01:49:16,320
Speaker 1: for an emergency battery, the Solix F thirty eight hundred

1907
01:49:16,360 --> 01:49:18,639
Speaker 1: will see you through ninety nine percent of the power

1908
01:49:18,720 --> 01:49:22,000
Speaker 1: loss situations you are likely to encounter, and require minimal

1909
01:49:22,120 --> 01:49:24,760
Speaker 1: knowledge to set up and get working. It is easy

1910
01:49:24,840 --> 01:49:27,400
Speaker 1: to attach to your home breaker, and Anchor's instructions for

1911
01:49:27,520 --> 01:49:30,559
Speaker 1: doing so are simple to follow for folks who can

1912
01:49:30,640 --> 01:49:33,560
Speaker 1: afford the cost then, and that cost is not inconsiderable.

1913
01:49:33,720 --> 01:49:35,760
Speaker 1: It is a great mix of might save your life

1914
01:49:35,840 --> 01:49:39,040
Speaker 1: and will definitely come in handy. I should also note

1915
01:49:39,080 --> 01:49:41,840
Speaker 1: that the Jaggery system has a better pedigree than the

1916
01:49:41,880 --> 01:49:45,639
Speaker 1: Geniverse system in the industry, probably similar to Anchor. They've

1917
01:49:45,680 --> 01:49:48,160
Speaker 1: got a long track record and are well regarded not

1918
01:49:48,280 --> 01:49:50,840
Speaker 1: as inexpensive solution, but as a reliable one with a

1919
01:49:50,880 --> 01:49:53,840
Speaker 1: good warranty and a lot of history to back them up.

1920
01:49:54,479 --> 01:49:57,120
Speaker 1: All of these systems are, in my experience, reliable and

1921
01:49:57,280 --> 01:49:59,800
Speaker 1: easy to use. All of them are and I have

1922
01:50:00,000 --> 01:50:02,640
Speaker 1: to hit on this a few times because it matters expensive.

1923
01:50:03,160 --> 01:50:05,360
Speaker 1: That presents a problem if you're someone who sees the

1924
01:50:05,479 --> 01:50:08,920
Speaker 1: value and these is potential emergency devices, but will realistically

1925
01:50:09,000 --> 01:50:11,680
Speaker 1: never be able to throw down three thousand dollars for them.

1926
01:50:12,360 --> 01:50:14,880
Speaker 1: It would be irresponsible of me to give you some

1927
01:50:14,960 --> 01:50:17,880
Speaker 1: specific technical advice because I lack that knowledge. But I

1928
01:50:17,960 --> 01:50:19,800
Speaker 1: have some experience here, and we're going to get to

1929
01:50:19,880 --> 01:50:28,360
Speaker 1: that after this next set of adds. We're back and

1930
01:50:28,520 --> 01:50:31,080
Speaker 1: we're talking about what you can do at least a

1931
01:50:31,160 --> 01:50:33,599
Speaker 1: little bit of what you can do. Again the furthest

1932
01:50:33,640 --> 01:50:35,240
Speaker 1: thing in the world from an expert here, but I

1933
01:50:35,320 --> 01:50:37,599
Speaker 1: wanted to at least provide some starting points from folks

1934
01:50:37,640 --> 01:50:39,800
Speaker 1: who are never going to be able to afford these

1935
01:50:39,920 --> 01:50:43,480
Speaker 1: more formal, easier to use idiot proof kind of situations,

1936
01:50:43,479 --> 01:50:45,600
Speaker 1: because while I'm not an expert on this, I have

1937
01:50:45,760 --> 01:50:47,599
Speaker 1: lived off grit a bit, and I have known people

1938
01:50:47,640 --> 01:50:50,800
Speaker 1: who have done so in a wide variety of weird situations.

1939
01:50:51,200 --> 01:50:54,320
Speaker 1: At one point, my partner operated a solar powered shack

1940
01:50:54,439 --> 01:50:57,320
Speaker 1: that they lived out of, with batteries so comparatively primitive

1941
01:50:57,520 --> 01:51:00,720
Speaker 1: that she had to regularly refill them with water. That

1942
01:51:00,880 --> 01:51:02,720
Speaker 1: kind of maintenance is going to be second nature to

1943
01:51:02,760 --> 01:51:04,880
Speaker 1: people who know they're shit with solar, and those people

1944
01:51:04,960 --> 01:51:07,880
Speaker 1: have a lot more options than the laymen. Probably the

1945
01:51:07,920 --> 01:51:10,560
Speaker 1: most impressive in cash neutral setup I saw was in

1946
01:51:10,600 --> 01:51:14,439
Speaker 1: a place called East Jesus in far southern California. This

1947
01:51:14,760 --> 01:51:17,800
Speaker 1: was a totally off grid power setup that kept around

1948
01:51:17,800 --> 01:51:21,080
Speaker 1: twelve to eighteen people alive year round and often intense temperatures,

1949
01:51:21,160 --> 01:51:25,000
Speaker 1: powering AC units and trailers and RVs, fridges, fans, lights,

1950
01:51:25,120 --> 01:51:28,839
Speaker 1: The entertainment equipment they used the wakes Now. Their setup

1951
01:51:29,000 --> 01:51:32,160
Speaker 1: was all scavenged or bought cheap in auction. The batteries

1952
01:51:32,200 --> 01:51:35,120
Speaker 1: they used, which took up an entire shipping container sized space,

1953
01:51:35,200 --> 01:51:37,800
Speaker 1: were purchased cheap from a telecom company in the area,

1954
01:51:38,040 --> 01:51:41,080
Speaker 1: which retired its deep cycle batteries once they hit eighty

1955
01:51:41,160 --> 01:51:43,760
Speaker 1: percent of their original functioning capacity or something like that.

1956
01:51:44,439 --> 01:51:47,920
Speaker 1: Panels were likewise scavenged or bought cheap and used. Since

1957
01:51:47,920 --> 01:51:50,360
Speaker 1: they had a lot of space but little money, Wiring

1958
01:51:50,400 --> 01:51:53,120
Speaker 1: a shitload of panels a varying efficiency together was a

1959
01:51:53,240 --> 01:51:55,360
Speaker 1: solution that they could afford, both in terms of the

1960
01:51:55,400 --> 01:51:57,200
Speaker 1: money that it cost and in terms of the space

1961
01:51:57,240 --> 01:52:00,320
Speaker 1: that was required. Most people lack the technical knowledg to

1962
01:52:00,360 --> 01:52:03,040
Speaker 1: set something like this up. I sure do, and even

1963
01:52:03,120 --> 01:52:05,320
Speaker 1: more of them lack the space, but it is an

1964
01:52:05,360 --> 01:52:07,519
Speaker 1: example of the sort of solutions that people with little

1965
01:52:07,520 --> 01:52:09,479
Speaker 1: to no cash can cook up if they're clever and

1966
01:52:09,600 --> 01:52:14,440
Speaker 1: knowledgeable about the fundamental technology. It would be extremely irresponsible

1967
01:52:14,439 --> 01:52:16,519
Speaker 1: if I did not add here that solar setups are

1968
01:52:16,560 --> 01:52:18,439
Speaker 1: the sort of thing where it behooves you to be

1969
01:52:18,600 --> 01:52:22,240
Speaker 1: exceedingly fucking careful. The chief benefit of the system's goal

1970
01:52:22,400 --> 01:52:25,880
Speaker 1: zero anchor, Jenniverse and Jackery make is that they are

1971
01:52:26,040 --> 01:52:28,280
Speaker 1: all as close to idiot proof as they can be.

1972
01:52:28,880 --> 01:52:30,559
Speaker 1: Part of the cost comes from the fact that they

1973
01:52:30,680 --> 01:52:35,519
Speaker 1: use expensive but extremely stable lithium iron phosphate batteries. These

1974
01:52:35,560 --> 01:52:38,240
Speaker 1: have long life spans. Jackery rates theirs at ten years

1975
01:52:38,320 --> 01:52:40,599
Speaker 1: and a cycle life of up to two thousand cycles.

1976
01:52:40,920 --> 01:52:43,719
Speaker 1: They have a good standby time too. Jackery rates theirs

1977
01:52:43,760 --> 01:52:46,679
Speaker 1: at up to fifty percent charge after two years in storage.

1978
01:52:47,240 --> 01:52:49,599
Speaker 1: A lot of the cheaper or scavenged options you find

1979
01:52:49,720 --> 01:52:53,439
Speaker 1: are lithium polymer batteries. These are rather infamous for igniting

1980
01:52:53,600 --> 01:52:56,840
Speaker 1: and burning down people's homes. There are solutions you can

1981
01:52:56,920 --> 01:52:59,519
Speaker 1: find online and if you're interested in cheaper homebrew solar

1982
01:52:59,560 --> 01:53:04,040
Speaker 1: setups out there, one place I'd suggest starting is diyssolarforum

1983
01:53:04,120 --> 01:53:07,800
Speaker 1: dot com. The people there will have suggestions for minimizing risk.

1984
01:53:08,400 --> 01:53:11,799
Speaker 1: Since LiPo is one of the most dangerous battery chemistry

1985
01:53:11,800 --> 01:53:14,719
Speaker 1: types out there. Some people build what are called battery bunkers.

1986
01:53:15,080 --> 01:53:16,920
Speaker 1: One a form I've seen this tape is basically a

1987
01:53:17,000 --> 01:53:19,760
Speaker 1: cube of bricks around and below the batteries with a

1988
01:53:19,840 --> 01:53:23,040
Speaker 1: ceramic flat sheet above them. Some people will suggest lacing

1989
01:53:23,160 --> 01:53:25,760
Speaker 1: sandbags above the bunkers that if the battery goes into

1990
01:53:25,760 --> 01:53:28,200
Speaker 1: a thermal runway, it will melt the sandbag and pour

1991
01:53:28,320 --> 01:53:31,479
Speaker 1: sand into the battery to stop the fire. Again, I

1992
01:53:31,560 --> 01:53:33,800
Speaker 1: am not giving advice here, just providing you with an

1993
01:53:33,880 --> 01:53:36,120
Speaker 1: example of the kinds of concerns that you do have

1994
01:53:36,240 --> 01:53:38,920
Speaker 1: to think about. When considering building setups like this for

1995
01:53:39,080 --> 01:53:42,559
Speaker 1: your own, it is unfortunate. The most financially accessible way

1996
01:53:42,600 --> 01:53:44,640
Speaker 1: to do this is by taking the research into your

1997
01:53:44,640 --> 01:53:47,000
Speaker 1: own hands and relying on the experience of hobbyists and

1998
01:53:47,080 --> 01:53:50,280
Speaker 1: lifestyle explorers who have been there before. But disasters aren't fair,

1999
01:53:50,479 --> 01:53:54,080
Speaker 1: and neither is life. Another exploratory option I'd suggest is

2000
01:53:54,120 --> 01:53:57,200
Speaker 1: googling questions like how to run small room ac off

2001
01:53:57,280 --> 01:54:00,160
Speaker 1: solar or how to run twelve volt fridge indefinitely I'm

2002
01:54:00,160 --> 01:54:02,760
Speaker 1: a solar, and then add Reddit as a search term.

2003
01:54:03,200 --> 01:54:05,880
Speaker 1: You'll find threads of people in off grids, solar or

2004
01:54:05,960 --> 01:54:09,080
Speaker 1: overlanding subreddits who have explored these problems for themselves and

2005
01:54:09,120 --> 01:54:11,320
Speaker 1: their journeys can at least act as a basis for

2006
01:54:11,479 --> 01:54:14,080
Speaker 1: your own. I'd like to thank at the end of

2007
01:54:14,120 --> 01:54:16,720
Speaker 1: this the reps at Jacker, each universe and anchor who

2008
01:54:16,800 --> 01:54:19,760
Speaker 1: sent products for me to review. It was incredibly nice

2009
01:54:19,800 --> 01:54:21,599
Speaker 1: of them all, and from an esthetic point of view,

2010
01:54:21,640 --> 01:54:23,759
Speaker 1: they all make great gear that is a genuine pleasure

2011
01:54:23,800 --> 01:54:26,479
Speaker 1: to use. Goll Zero didn't send me anything, but I've

2012
01:54:26,520 --> 01:54:28,160
Speaker 1: paid for their stuff for years and I've never had

2013
01:54:28,160 --> 01:54:30,280
Speaker 1: anything fail in the field, so I figure I owe

2014
01:54:30,280 --> 01:54:31,160
Speaker 1: them a shout out here.

2015
01:54:31,120 --> 01:54:33,280
Speaker 3: Too, and it's going to do it for us.

2016
01:54:33,680 --> 01:54:35,840
Speaker 1: It could happen here for the day, so you know,

2017
01:54:36,200 --> 01:54:39,160
Speaker 1: check in tomorrow or you know, Monday, depending on when

2018
01:54:39,200 --> 01:54:42,840
Speaker 1: you hear this. Whenever it drops and yeah, goodbye.

2019
01:54:57,760 --> 01:55:00,240
Speaker 12: Welcome to It could happen here. I'm Garrison, David, and

2020
01:55:00,520 --> 01:55:03,240
Speaker 12: once again it has been happening here as protest encampments

2021
01:55:03,240 --> 01:55:05,880
Speaker 12: have sprung up in at least eighty college campuses all

2022
01:55:05,920 --> 01:55:08,880
Speaker 12: across the country as Israel continues its genoside of the

2023
01:55:08,920 --> 01:55:12,280
Speaker 12: Palestine people and is now currently bombing multiple sides of Rafa.

2024
01:55:13,120 --> 01:55:17,120
Speaker 12: Last month, students at American universities began protesting their university's

2025
01:55:17,160 --> 01:55:20,520
Speaker 12: ties to Israel and weapons manufacturers, calling for divestment, as

2026
01:55:20,560 --> 01:55:23,400
Speaker 12: well as urging their institutions to join in calls for ceasefire.

2027
01:55:23,920 --> 01:55:27,520
Speaker 12: After a militarized police raid at the Humboldt protest utilizing

2028
01:55:27,560 --> 01:55:30,560
Speaker 12: a prison swat team, police departments around the country began

2029
01:55:30,640 --> 01:55:33,640
Speaker 12: cracking down more harshly on the protest encampments. The day

2030
01:55:33,680 --> 01:55:37,360
Speaker 12: after the Humboldt one, NYPD raided Columbia University and fired

2031
01:55:37,400 --> 01:55:40,640
Speaker 12: a gun inside Hamilton Hall while trying to use their

2032
01:55:40,640 --> 01:55:44,440
Speaker 12: handgun as a flashlight. The Portland Police Bureau quickly followed

2033
01:55:44,480 --> 01:55:47,440
Speaker 12: suit and cracked down at the encampment at Portland State

2034
01:55:47,560 --> 01:55:51,360
Speaker 12: University and have since barricaded that library. As of time

2035
01:55:51,400 --> 01:55:54,480
Speaker 12: of recording, around twenty five hundred arrests have taken place

2036
01:55:54,520 --> 01:55:57,600
Speaker 12: at college protests all around the country. Police have displayed

2037
01:55:57,640 --> 01:56:00,400
Speaker 12: incredible violence, sending people to the hospital with broken ankles

2038
01:56:00,400 --> 01:56:02,920
Speaker 12: and concussions. In many cities, there's been heavy use of

2039
01:56:02,920 --> 01:56:06,720
Speaker 12: pepper spray, pepperballs as well as tasers. The protests have

2040
01:56:06,800 --> 01:56:09,440
Speaker 12: also faced violence from a mix of far right agitators,

2041
01:56:09,600 --> 01:56:13,200
Speaker 12: zionist counter protesters, and racist frats that have targeted the

2042
01:56:13,240 --> 01:56:17,800
Speaker 12: protest encampments with physical violence, especially at UCLA. We here

2043
01:56:17,920 --> 01:56:19,680
Speaker 12: at it could happen here are lucky enough to have

2044
01:56:19,720 --> 01:56:22,480
Speaker 12: correspondence kind of based all around the country. So I'm

2045
01:56:22,560 --> 01:56:25,400
Speaker 12: joined today by Mia Wong, James Stout, and Molly Konger

2046
01:56:25,880 --> 01:56:29,520
Speaker 12: to discuss our experiences as people who have been present

2047
01:56:29,640 --> 01:56:33,280
Speaker 12: at some of these encampments all across the country. I'm

2048
01:56:33,320 --> 01:56:37,360
Speaker 12: going to start by talking about Emory University here in Atlanta, Georgia.

2049
01:56:38,800 --> 01:56:40,560
Speaker 12: This is a weird one and I think I'll actually

2050
01:56:40,600 --> 01:56:43,880
Speaker 12: go into more depth in a future episode, but this

2051
01:56:44,000 --> 01:56:46,400
Speaker 12: episode's going to kind of focus on discussions and we're

2052
01:56:46,400 --> 01:56:50,240
Speaker 12: going to kind of compare our experiences. So oddly enough,

2053
01:56:50,280 --> 01:56:52,880
Speaker 12: I think Emory was the first one to actually face

2054
01:56:53,120 --> 01:56:57,080
Speaker 12: significant police repression. Tents went up on the Emory Quad

2055
01:56:57,200 --> 01:57:00,720
Speaker 12: on April fifteenth, and that morning there was a heavy

2056
01:57:00,800 --> 01:57:05,440
Speaker 12: police response from EMORYPD, APD and Georgia State Patrol. They

2057
01:57:05,720 --> 01:57:09,040
Speaker 12: fired tasers, there was rubber bullets, pepper balls, and over

2058
01:57:09,160 --> 01:57:13,960
Speaker 12: two dozen arrests. Students and others began to rally later

2059
01:57:14,040 --> 01:57:16,800
Speaker 12: that afternoon to retake the quad. A few hundred people

2060
01:57:16,960 --> 01:57:20,440
Speaker 12: did so, and a small occupation began inside the Kendler

2061
01:57:20,520 --> 01:57:24,480
Speaker 12: School of Theology building. M REYPD was pinned up against

2062
01:57:24,520 --> 01:57:28,160
Speaker 12: this building. GSP arrived as reinforcements, and people started to flee,

2063
01:57:28,400 --> 01:57:31,040
Speaker 12: as you know, you see GSP kind of form this area.

2064
01:57:31,400 --> 01:57:33,680
Speaker 12: But people were able to calm some of those other

2065
01:57:33,720 --> 01:57:36,320
Speaker 12: students down and regroup and actually hold that position for

2066
01:57:36,360 --> 01:57:39,480
Speaker 12: a little while longer police began attacking students, a small

2067
01:57:39,560 --> 01:57:42,520
Speaker 12: clash began, there was pepper balls. People continued to kind

2068
01:57:42,520 --> 01:57:44,800
Speaker 12: of hold that ground in front of the building. There

2069
01:57:44,880 --> 01:57:48,080
Speaker 12: was students also inside. As people try to you know,

2070
01:57:49,000 --> 01:57:52,600
Speaker 12: render aid to those who have been pepper baled, and

2071
01:57:53,400 --> 01:57:55,920
Speaker 12: while maintaining this position in front of the building, more

2072
01:57:56,000 --> 01:58:00,120
Speaker 12: and more police arrived like a ridiculous number, and the

2073
01:58:00,200 --> 01:58:03,480
Speaker 12: crowd eventually starts to slowly disperse as police just flood campus.

2074
01:58:03,840 --> 01:58:06,680
Speaker 12: Police from all around the greater Atlanta area just flood

2075
01:58:06,760 --> 01:58:09,560
Speaker 12: this very small section of Decatur, which is a small

2076
01:58:09,600 --> 01:58:12,240
Speaker 12: suburb to the northeast of Atlanta or to the east

2077
01:58:12,280 --> 01:58:12,720
Speaker 12: of Atlanta.

2078
01:58:12,760 --> 01:58:13,080
Speaker 3: I guess.

2079
01:58:13,520 --> 01:58:17,480
Speaker 12: Emory President Greg Femmes said the Thursday protest was concocted

2080
01:58:17,560 --> 01:58:22,000
Speaker 12: by outside entities, which is why Emory PD, APD and

2081
01:58:22,160 --> 01:58:25,760
Speaker 12: GSP violently disrupted the protest because it was caused by

2082
01:58:26,080 --> 01:58:30,520
Speaker 12: outside agitators. Line that New York Mayor Eric Adams would

2083
01:58:30,520 --> 01:58:35,520
Speaker 12: then reiterate to justify the massive crackdown at Columbia. So

2084
01:58:36,080 --> 01:58:38,600
Speaker 12: the next day we had five hundred people march around

2085
01:58:38,720 --> 01:58:43,560
Speaker 12: campus and then this little kind of committee of Emory

2086
01:58:43,600 --> 01:58:48,000
Speaker 12: faculty and staff called the Every Open Expression Committee began

2087
01:58:48,080 --> 01:58:52,240
Speaker 12: to negotiate with the protest and they quote unquote allowed

2088
01:58:52,720 --> 01:58:56,160
Speaker 12: the protest to march around campus, and this small subset

2089
01:58:56,200 --> 01:58:59,000
Speaker 12: of the group began to occupy the Coxhaull Food Court

2090
01:58:59,520 --> 01:59:01,280
Speaker 12: and police. Plice were ordered to stay out of sight

2091
01:59:01,920 --> 01:59:04,000
Speaker 12: this whole day and a few of the days after

2092
01:59:04,400 --> 01:59:07,880
Speaker 12: unless the Open Expression Committee specifically called them in. And

2093
01:59:08,000 --> 01:59:09,800
Speaker 12: what was able to happen is that this Open Expression

2094
01:59:09,800 --> 01:59:12,440
Speaker 12: Committee was able to wield the threat of police as

2095
01:59:12,480 --> 01:59:15,880
Speaker 12: a deterrent from people taking kind of more militant action

2096
01:59:16,040 --> 01:59:18,240
Speaker 12: or to actually set up things that would hold down

2097
01:59:18,280 --> 01:59:21,040
Speaker 12: an encampment, like if tenths were set up, this would

2098
01:59:21,200 --> 01:59:24,280
Speaker 12: result in this Open Expression Committee to call in the police.

2099
01:59:24,400 --> 01:59:28,040
Speaker 12: So this was a very successfully wielded threat. So as

2100
01:59:28,120 --> 01:59:30,000
Speaker 12: the night goes on, the Open Spression Committee does threaten

2101
01:59:30,120 --> 01:59:32,760
Speaker 12: to call police on the Cox Food Hall protest, which

2102
01:59:32,880 --> 01:59:35,360
Speaker 12: scares a whole bunch of these you know, young teens

2103
01:59:35,440 --> 01:59:38,360
Speaker 12: early twenties out of the building. A smaller group of

2104
01:59:38,400 --> 01:59:40,360
Speaker 12: around one hundred people remain on the quad till midnight,

2105
01:59:40,440 --> 01:59:43,160
Speaker 12: police arrive and then everyone disperses. The next day kind

2106
01:59:43,160 --> 01:59:46,400
Speaker 12: of follows a similar pattern open expression and some student

2107
01:59:46,480 --> 01:59:49,280
Speaker 12: organizers over the course of the next few days actually

2108
01:59:49,360 --> 01:59:53,200
Speaker 12: start directing police to detain and criminally trespass people wearing

2109
01:59:53,280 --> 01:59:57,200
Speaker 12: cafeas on suspicion of them having been engaged in like

2110
01:59:57,320 --> 02:00:00,480
Speaker 12: doing graffiti, and really it just allows police to target

2111
02:00:00,520 --> 02:00:03,360
Speaker 12: specific people that the Open Expression Committee kind of just

2112
02:00:03,480 --> 02:00:06,720
Speaker 12: don't want on campus based on either how they dress,

2113
02:00:06,840 --> 02:00:09,720
Speaker 12: how they're kind of walking, acting, behaving, that sort of thing.

2114
02:00:10,240 --> 02:00:13,400
Speaker 12: And this pattern followed basically up until the present. People

2115
02:00:13,440 --> 02:00:16,640
Speaker 12: would try to take buildings do smaller protests. Police would

2116
02:00:16,720 --> 02:00:18,560
Speaker 12: either be called or there would be threats that they

2117
02:00:18,600 --> 02:00:20,680
Speaker 12: would be called. It would kind of calm the crowd down,

2118
02:00:20,760 --> 02:00:23,320
Speaker 12: everyone would disperse. If ten's got set up, that was

2119
02:00:23,360 --> 02:00:25,480
Speaker 12: seen as like a major sign of escalation, which would

2120
02:00:25,480 --> 02:00:27,400
Speaker 12: result in police being called. And it's kind of the

2121
02:00:27,480 --> 02:00:29,760
Speaker 12: small back and forth, and eventually this just kind of

2122
02:00:29,840 --> 02:00:33,720
Speaker 12: led to the situation Emory slowly dissolving, slowly fizzling out

2123
02:00:34,320 --> 02:00:38,200
Speaker 12: as the people who were wanting to do stuff kind

2124
02:00:38,200 --> 02:00:40,600
Speaker 12: of got pushed more to the side, got pushed out,

2125
02:00:40,960 --> 02:00:44,400
Speaker 12: more and more people became began getting criminally trespassed, and

2126
02:00:45,040 --> 02:00:48,800
Speaker 12: the group of students at Emory just did not want

2127
02:00:48,840 --> 02:00:51,960
Speaker 12: to risk a further engagement with police after the first day,

2128
02:00:52,480 --> 02:00:55,600
Speaker 12: and that's kind of led to things slowly slowly dissolving,

2129
02:00:56,160 --> 02:01:00,200
Speaker 12: And that's basically with the situation currently. Things of the

2130
02:01:00,320 --> 02:01:02,840
Speaker 12: kind of tapered off. School's ending. I'm sure this will

2131
02:01:02,840 --> 02:01:05,600
Speaker 12: be a similar, similar thing across the country as the

2132
02:01:05,640 --> 02:01:09,520
Speaker 12: school season is ending and these protest encampments will so

2133
02:01:09,640 --> 02:01:13,280
Speaker 12: we also just dissolve away as police repression continues. Let's

2134
02:01:13,320 --> 02:01:16,560
Speaker 12: see who should we move on to the next little report?

2135
02:01:17,800 --> 02:01:21,720
Speaker 12: James James stout from you. You went to U see

2136
02:01:22,080 --> 02:01:22,800
Speaker 12: San Diego.

2137
02:01:23,600 --> 02:01:26,400
Speaker 3: That's right. I did both both as a graduate student

2138
02:01:26,480 --> 02:01:29,600
Speaker 3: and then again as an adjunct professor, and then again

2139
02:01:29,840 --> 02:01:31,840
Speaker 3: as a journalist last week, which is what we're going

2140
02:01:31,920 --> 02:01:34,760
Speaker 3: to talk about this time. So you see San Diego

2141
02:01:35,160 --> 02:01:38,440
Speaker 3: had it was interesting the encampment began on the first

2142
02:01:38,520 --> 02:01:41,400
Speaker 3: of May, but s JP had posted this thing about

2143
02:01:41,440 --> 02:01:44,200
Speaker 3: their big rally was going to be on the third

2144
02:01:44,280 --> 02:01:45,200
Speaker 3: of May, on the Friday.

2145
02:01:45,280 --> 02:01:45,360
Speaker 6: Right.

2146
02:01:45,560 --> 02:01:48,840
Speaker 3: S JP is Students for Justice in Palestine. It's one

2147
02:01:48,880 --> 02:01:51,560
Speaker 3: of the groups it's organized a lot of these protests

2148
02:01:51,640 --> 02:01:54,200
Speaker 3: across It depends you know where you're at. You might

2149
02:01:54,280 --> 02:01:56,800
Speaker 3: have the Council on American Islamic Relations, you might have

2150
02:01:56,880 --> 02:02:00,600
Speaker 3: the Muslim Student Association, you might have both. But yeah, yeah,

2151
02:02:00,600 --> 02:02:03,320
Speaker 3: you Jewish Fast for Peace. Yeah yeah. Very often they're

2152
02:02:03,520 --> 02:02:06,160
Speaker 3: they're collaborating, which is great. We love to see collaboration.

2153
02:02:06,800 --> 02:02:08,800
Speaker 3: So what they did was they posted that they were

2154
02:02:08,800 --> 02:02:11,720
Speaker 3: going to have a big rally on Friday, and that,

2155
02:02:12,280 --> 02:02:14,040
Speaker 3: as it turned out, was like a fake out, and

2156
02:02:14,080 --> 02:02:17,600
Speaker 3: they actually started their encampment on Wednesday, So they distracted

2157
02:02:17,640 --> 02:02:20,880
Speaker 3: admin with that Instagram post, which is pretty clever, pretty funny,

2158
02:02:21,280 --> 02:02:25,080
Speaker 3: And they began this encampment on Wednesday on Library Walk,

2159
02:02:25,120 --> 02:02:26,720
Speaker 3: which is kind of right in the middle of UCSD.

2160
02:02:27,520 --> 02:02:29,520
Speaker 3: If people have seen, you know, people would be familiar

2161
02:02:29,560 --> 02:02:31,840
Speaker 3: with the UCSD guys Le Library from the film Attack

2162
02:02:31,880 --> 02:02:34,720
Speaker 3: of the Killer Tomatoes, which it played important role in. Yeah,

2163
02:02:35,560 --> 02:02:38,640
Speaker 3: I can see the look of recognition on my colleagues faces.

2164
02:02:39,120 --> 02:02:41,720
Speaker 3: But yeah, that's the only thing that's ever cool that's

2165
02:02:41,720 --> 02:02:46,000
Speaker 3: happened at UCSD. So they set up this encampment. It

2166
02:02:46,240 --> 02:02:50,640
Speaker 3: wasn't huge, but it was certainly a serious presence, right,

2167
02:02:50,720 --> 02:02:55,040
Speaker 3: and they didn't barricade it or sort of make it

2168
02:02:55,160 --> 02:02:58,480
Speaker 3: make a defensible That was a conscious choice, right, And

2169
02:02:58,600 --> 02:03:04,440
Speaker 3: they did set up a security system whereby they had

2170
02:03:04,680 --> 02:03:10,080
Speaker 3: student security people controlling who entered and I guess left

2171
02:03:10,160 --> 02:03:12,880
Speaker 3: the encampment if you really wanted to, you get the

2172
02:03:12,960 --> 02:03:14,840
Speaker 3: cops got in, right, Like it was a wist high

2173
02:03:15,000 --> 02:03:18,840
Speaker 3: vinyl offence. But in theory, these people were controlling who

2174
02:03:18,880 --> 02:03:22,240
Speaker 3: went in and who went out. Some times these people

2175
02:03:22,280 --> 02:03:25,000
Speaker 3: were asking people to sign up on a sheet. I

2176
02:03:25,120 --> 02:03:29,400
Speaker 3: think I hope they stopped doing that because obviously that

2177
02:03:29,480 --> 02:03:32,120
Speaker 3: you're sort of helping the cops make their prosecution case. There.

2178
02:03:32,840 --> 02:03:37,040
Speaker 3: Over the next five days, the encampment was extremely peaceful.

2179
02:03:37,120 --> 02:03:39,480
Speaker 3: Right There was a focus among this group on not

2180
02:03:39,640 --> 02:03:44,120
Speaker 3: giving any provocation to police or to addmin to any

2181
02:03:44,240 --> 02:03:48,360
Speaker 3: reason to evict them. So they had some lectures, some speeches,

2182
02:03:48,640 --> 02:03:52,240
Speaker 3: they had some live music, they did some dancing, all

2183
02:03:52,320 --> 02:03:56,080
Speaker 3: stuff that's in no way provocation or violent. On the

2184
02:03:56,200 --> 02:03:59,840
Speaker 3: fifth of May, a large counter protest was organized. Most

2185
02:04:00,400 --> 02:04:03,800
Speaker 3: it bought kind of like get off my Law and

2186
02:04:03,880 --> 02:04:09,000
Speaker 3: boomer types, but then also like some right wing streamers

2187
02:04:09,480 --> 02:04:13,400
Speaker 3: Oreo Express or I guess the surviving half of Oreo Express,

2188
02:04:13,520 --> 02:04:17,040
Speaker 3: Josh Fulfer, was there. I think the guy who was

2189
02:04:17,120 --> 02:04:21,400
Speaker 3: first responded to media, Jsuay or Joe Felix, was also there.

2190
02:04:21,840 --> 02:04:23,720
Speaker 3: These are right wing streamers that, sadly, like, if you

2191
02:04:23,800 --> 02:04:25,640
Speaker 3: live where I live, you have to be familiar with

2192
02:04:25,720 --> 02:04:28,360
Speaker 3: where they do a lot of border harassment to They

2193
02:04:28,400 --> 02:04:30,720
Speaker 3: were obviously trying to film and identify students, so I

2194
02:04:30,800 --> 02:04:34,920
Speaker 3: guess this was on the evening of the fifth That evening,

2195
02:04:35,080 --> 02:04:38,520
Speaker 3: the Chancellor Costler sent around an email basically saying that

2196
02:04:38,640 --> 02:04:41,400
Speaker 3: what the students were doing was prohibited, that the tents

2197
02:04:41,560 --> 02:04:45,360
Speaker 3: were not included in freedom of speech, and asking them

2198
02:04:45,520 --> 02:04:50,600
Speaker 3: to disband peacefully. The next morning, at about five or

2199
02:04:50,640 --> 02:04:55,560
Speaker 3: six in their morning, literally hundreds of cops from several agencies.

2200
02:04:55,720 --> 02:04:59,720
Speaker 3: Right the UCPD does not have the footprint that we saw.

2201
02:05:00,040 --> 02:05:04,120
Speaker 3: There was California Highway Patrol, San Diego Sheriff's Department, and

2202
02:05:04,320 --> 02:05:09,240
Speaker 3: UCPD all in full right gear lined up opposite the encampment.

2203
02:05:10,240 --> 02:05:13,120
Speaker 3: They say that they asked students to leave and that

2204
02:05:13,280 --> 02:05:16,040
Speaker 3: those who didn't were arrested. And when they're arrested, obviously

2205
02:05:16,160 --> 02:05:18,160
Speaker 3: like violence was used by the police, as always is,

2206
02:05:18,760 --> 02:05:23,320
Speaker 3: the encampment was destroyed. Everything that was there was tossed

2207
02:05:23,360 --> 02:05:25,520
Speaker 3: into a dumpster. Some stuff was then recovered. I guess

2208
02:05:25,560 --> 02:05:27,840
Speaker 3: there's now a lost and found people to recover their

2209
02:05:28,240 --> 02:05:31,320
Speaker 3: things like laptops, right, like expensive personal items that were

2210
02:05:31,360 --> 02:05:34,720
Speaker 3: swept up. At that point, people were arrested and then

2211
02:05:34,840 --> 02:05:38,320
Speaker 3: detained in the Price Center at UCSD. The Price Center,

2212
02:05:38,520 --> 02:05:41,320
Speaker 3: if you've not been on campus, is like a large

2213
02:05:41,320 --> 02:05:44,840
Speaker 3: shopping mall that also has some lecture facilities. But it's

2214
02:05:44,880 --> 02:05:49,160
Speaker 3: where the Panda expresses on campus. It's not trapped in

2215
02:05:49,320 --> 02:05:52,560
Speaker 3: with the Panda Express, which is a dangerous situation. Yeah yeah,

2216
02:05:52,600 --> 02:05:55,160
Speaker 3: and the Panda Express is not operational sadly more it's

2217
02:05:55,160 --> 02:05:57,960
Speaker 3: a shame, but it's where they have those their dining horn.

2218
02:05:58,040 --> 02:06:01,360
Speaker 3: It's like a center of corporate operations on campus. It's

2219
02:06:01,400 --> 02:06:04,880
Speaker 3: a very bleak place. So they're trapped in the Price Center.

2220
02:06:05,680 --> 02:06:08,080
Speaker 3: The students around campus, those who are not in the

2221
02:06:08,160 --> 02:06:11,840
Speaker 3: encampment then rallied to protect these students and tried to

2222
02:06:12,040 --> 02:06:15,240
Speaker 3: block the police from loading them on buses and then

2223
02:06:15,440 --> 02:06:17,920
Speaker 3: block the buses from leaving. And that's when we saw

2224
02:06:17,960 --> 02:06:21,560
Speaker 3: the Sheriff's department using massive amounts of violence. Right, our

2225
02:06:21,600 --> 02:06:25,880
Speaker 3: Sheriff's department still carry just like big wooden sticks. They're

2226
02:06:25,920 --> 02:06:28,120
Speaker 3: not like the black night sticks, you know, with like

2227
02:06:28,240 --> 02:06:32,280
Speaker 3: the right angled grip. It's just a giant it's just

2228
02:06:32,360 --> 02:06:36,160
Speaker 3: a big wooden baton. Yeah, it's the esthetic of our

2229
02:06:36,240 --> 02:06:40,680
Speaker 3: Sheriff's Department's right gear is consciously or unconsciously something that

2230
02:06:40,720 --> 02:06:42,760
Speaker 3: I associate with the civil rights tear and the repression

2231
02:06:42,760 --> 02:06:45,680
Speaker 3: of the civil rights movement. Perhaps that's a choice. I

2232
02:06:45,720 --> 02:06:48,720
Speaker 3: don't know, but that was when the Sheriff's department started

2233
02:06:48,760 --> 02:06:52,480
Speaker 3: to become violent. That's when they brutalized and arrested both

2234
02:06:52,600 --> 02:06:56,760
Speaker 3: generalists and students. In total, sixty five people are arrested

2235
02:06:57,120 --> 02:06:59,840
Speaker 3: protests and moved down to the two jails. We have

2236
02:07:00,160 --> 02:07:03,480
Speaker 3: different facility. There's a men's journal at women's jail, and

2237
02:07:03,600 --> 02:07:07,920
Speaker 3: they tend to they tend to incarcerate trans people with

2238
02:07:08,040 --> 02:07:10,560
Speaker 3: the gender they're assigned at birth. I've heard about lots

2239
02:07:10,560 --> 02:07:13,360
Speaker 3: of things that happened in those jails that were pretty bad,

2240
02:07:14,000 --> 02:07:15,760
Speaker 3: but I haven't been able to confirm them enough that

2241
02:07:15,880 --> 02:07:20,360
Speaker 3: I think I'd be comfortable airing them. So people are released,

2242
02:07:20,480 --> 02:07:24,640
Speaker 3: lots of them charged with several misdemeanors, trespassing, encroachment, being

2243
02:07:24,680 --> 02:07:27,720
Speaker 3: at the scene of a riot, resisting arrests, things like that. Right,

2244
02:07:28,320 --> 02:07:32,360
Speaker 3: two members of faculty were also arrested. Forty people were students,

2245
02:07:32,400 --> 02:07:34,280
Speaker 3: and at the last time I checked, they hadn't confirmed

2246
02:07:34,320 --> 02:07:37,600
Speaker 3: the status of the other twenty ish people. So that

2247
02:07:37,800 --> 02:07:42,360
Speaker 3: happened on the sixth yesterday, which was of course the eighth.

2248
02:07:42,560 --> 02:07:45,120
Speaker 3: There was a big march about a thousand students. It

2249
02:07:45,200 --> 02:07:47,800
Speaker 3: looked like kind of both calling for the UC to

2250
02:07:47,880 --> 02:07:52,200
Speaker 3: divest and calling for the UC to drop charges and

2251
02:07:52,960 --> 02:07:55,360
Speaker 3: drop academic sanctions. So right now, all the people who

2252
02:07:55,360 --> 02:07:59,200
Speaker 3: are arrested are facing interim suspension, they're facing a viction

2253
02:07:59,360 --> 02:08:03,000
Speaker 3: from their student housing, which San Diego, if we've spoken

2254
02:08:03,000 --> 02:08:06,360
Speaker 3: about brazilion times, has an incredibly expensive housing market and

2255
02:08:06,680 --> 02:08:10,120
Speaker 3: it's almost impossible to access to affordable housing here. And

2256
02:08:10,480 --> 02:08:13,560
Speaker 3: in some cases, you know, they're facing serious academic sanctions.

2257
02:08:13,600 --> 02:08:15,840
Speaker 3: It could affect the rest of their academic careers, student

2258
02:08:15,960 --> 02:08:18,840
Speaker 3: workers who are arrested or also now not being allowed

2259
02:08:18,880 --> 02:08:22,560
Speaker 3: to work on campus. So one hundred and eighty three

2260
02:08:22,600 --> 02:08:25,360
Speaker 3: faculty signed the letter asking the university to not do that.

2261
02:08:25,800 --> 02:08:28,480
Speaker 3: That came out last night, and that's kind of where

2262
02:08:28,520 --> 02:08:32,000
Speaker 3: we're at in terms of what's happened to these people.

2263
02:08:32,440 --> 02:08:36,680
Speaker 3: I think it's probably worth noting that the U see

2264
02:08:36,760 --> 02:08:41,120
Speaker 3: Riverside settled, right that they negotiated a settlement. That's in

2265
02:08:42,320 --> 02:08:45,160
Speaker 3: so Riverside is north and slightly east of here, east

2266
02:08:45,200 --> 02:08:49,720
Speaker 3: of Los Angeles County. You see Riverside is. I don't

2267
02:08:49,720 --> 02:08:52,040
Speaker 3: know in terms of student numbers how big it is,

2268
02:08:52,160 --> 02:08:55,960
Speaker 3: but they settled I think on the Wednesday, so it'd

2269
02:08:56,000 --> 02:08:58,680
Speaker 3: be mad Mayda. The Friday, May the third, I was

2270
02:08:58,760 --> 02:09:01,160
Speaker 3: at the UCSD and meant that day and I heard

2271
02:09:01,200 --> 02:09:05,000
Speaker 3: them announce it. They were overside settlement. I'm just going

2272
02:09:05,080 --> 02:09:07,080
Speaker 3: to say it didn't achieve some of the more radical

2273
02:09:07,160 --> 02:09:10,240
Speaker 3: goals of the student organizing movement, not to be divestment,

2274
02:09:10,760 --> 02:09:13,320
Speaker 3: to be an academic boycott. They did get the university

2275
02:09:13,400 --> 02:09:17,080
Speaker 3: to publish its investments which are linked to Israel at least,

2276
02:09:17,680 --> 02:09:20,880
Speaker 3: which is a step. I guess. They got a task force.

2277
02:09:21,800 --> 02:09:23,520
Speaker 3: The university is going to be very willing to grant

2278
02:09:23,560 --> 02:09:26,400
Speaker 3: you task forces and panels and things which can turn

2279
02:09:26,480 --> 02:09:29,480
Speaker 3: your radical aims into a bureaucratic mess. Right, And they

2280
02:09:29,600 --> 02:09:31,880
Speaker 3: got the university to look into removing Sabra Hummas from

2281
02:09:31,880 --> 02:09:36,240
Speaker 3: its men use as well. Get get Yeah.

2282
02:09:36,920 --> 02:09:40,480
Speaker 8: The biggest concession was the Hummers, which isn't isn't great?

2283
02:09:41,120 --> 02:09:43,200
Speaker 13: Wait that was That wasn't a joke? I thought you

2284
02:09:43,280 --> 02:09:43,680
Speaker 13: were joking.

2285
02:09:43,880 --> 02:09:46,600
Speaker 3: No no, I'm not joking. No no, no, no, Sobra

2286
02:09:46,680 --> 02:09:49,760
Speaker 3: Hummas was called out by name. They didn't. I'm not

2287
02:09:49,840 --> 02:09:52,600
Speaker 3: saying they're really investment yeah, yeah, no, no, they're not

2288
02:09:52,760 --> 02:09:56,680
Speaker 3: divesting from Sabra Hummas, Molly, they're looking into doing that.

2289
02:09:57,840 --> 02:10:01,440
Speaker 3: In conjunction with their acquisitions procedure. Yeah, so you know,

2290
02:10:01,520 --> 02:10:03,960
Speaker 3: it's a huge dub. I don't want to undermine what

2291
02:10:04,040 --> 02:10:06,400
Speaker 3: these people have done. Like it's it's scary when the

2292
02:10:06,480 --> 02:10:09,800
Speaker 3: cops come to get you. And I understand, but this

2293
02:10:10,000 --> 02:10:11,920
Speaker 3: is a sort of visa concessions or university is going

2294
02:10:12,000 --> 02:10:15,400
Speaker 3: to give you. Right, you might get a snack task force,

2295
02:10:15,560 --> 02:10:20,560
Speaker 3: and you might get they're already publicly available investments listed

2296
02:10:20,600 --> 02:10:25,200
Speaker 3: in one place on their website at UCSD. The administration

2297
02:10:25,360 --> 02:10:30,080
Speaker 3: claims that the students were unwilling to negotiate. I wasn't

2298
02:10:30,120 --> 02:10:33,400
Speaker 3: able to ascertain if what system they had, right, Like

2299
02:10:33,520 --> 02:10:36,960
Speaker 3: I was trying to ask if they had delegates or representatives,

2300
02:10:37,720 --> 02:10:39,560
Speaker 3: who are going to do those being different things, right,

2301
02:10:39,840 --> 02:10:43,040
Speaker 3: who are going to negotiate? I was enabled to get

2302
02:10:43,040 --> 02:10:46,320
Speaker 3: a clear answer, and that they did very clearly publish

2303
02:10:46,360 --> 02:10:48,560
Speaker 3: their demands right, And the university doesn't seem to have

2304
02:10:48,640 --> 02:10:51,680
Speaker 3: proceeded to any of them. So that more or less

2305
02:10:51,840 --> 02:10:54,320
Speaker 3: is where we're at in San Diego. They're are ongoing

2306
02:10:55,080 --> 02:10:57,760
Speaker 3: panels and press conferences. I'm going to attend one, so

2307
02:10:57,880 --> 02:11:00,320
Speaker 3: it's going to be one by faculty tomorrow on the ninth,

2308
02:11:00,600 --> 02:11:02,800
Speaker 3: the faculty have also been organizing right in a group

2309
02:11:02,840 --> 02:11:05,720
Speaker 3: called Faculty for Justice in Palestine, and they've been organizing.

2310
02:11:05,760 --> 02:11:07,640
Speaker 3: I think it was very impressive that they like accepted

2311
02:11:07,640 --> 02:11:10,800
Speaker 3: student leadership and didn't try and like, you know, come

2312
02:11:10,880 --> 02:11:13,040
Speaker 3: in and take a vanguard roll or tell everybody what

2313
02:11:13,160 --> 02:11:15,560
Speaker 3: to do. But but there mostly to facilitate the student

2314
02:11:15,600 --> 02:11:18,839
Speaker 3: protest and protect it. So they're having a press conference tomorrow,

2315
02:11:18,920 --> 02:11:21,560
Speaker 3: so things that's definitely ongoing here. But that's kind of

2316
02:11:21,600 --> 02:11:24,080
Speaker 3: where we're at as of today, which is the ninth

2317
02:11:24,480 --> 02:11:24,680
Speaker 3: of me.

2318
02:11:25,560 --> 02:11:28,400
Speaker 12: We will be back in here about the happenings in

2319
02:11:28,560 --> 02:11:33,440
Speaker 12: Chicago and I believe Richmond Charlottesville after this outbreak. Yeah

2320
02:11:33,520 --> 02:11:40,800
Speaker 12: for Sobra, I hope probably not Chockolahamas. That's the chocolate

2321
02:11:40,840 --> 02:11:43,480
Speaker 12: Hammas is a travesty, crime against humanity.

2322
02:11:53,800 --> 02:11:55,120
Speaker 3: All Right, we are back.

2323
02:11:55,760 --> 02:11:59,040
Speaker 8: I have a big bowl of non Sobra chocolate hummers. Actually,

2324
02:11:59,160 --> 02:12:00,680
Speaker 8: so fuck all of you.

2325
02:12:02,760 --> 02:12:04,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the break Garrison got out that chickpeas and

2326
02:12:05,040 --> 02:12:07,000
Speaker 3: a blenda is a really beautiful thing.

2327
02:12:07,520 --> 02:12:09,800
Speaker 12: Let's hear from me about what's been happening in Chicago

2328
02:12:09,840 --> 02:12:13,440
Speaker 12: where there it's been multiple, multiple of these protest occupations.

2329
02:12:14,400 --> 02:12:17,879
Speaker 6: Yeah, so there's been four occupations so far in Chicago

2330
02:12:18,080 --> 02:12:20,880
Speaker 6: that it's it's possible. I don't know. I'm actually kind

2331
02:12:20,880 --> 02:12:23,000
Speaker 6: of surprised, Like the University of Ville Nois hasn't, Like

2332
02:12:23,200 --> 02:12:24,880
Speaker 6: there have been a few campuses that I thought would

2333
02:12:24,880 --> 02:12:27,240
Speaker 6: go up that haven't. Yeah, so we're gonna talk about

2334
02:12:27,240 --> 02:12:29,280
Speaker 6: three of them because the other one I didn't get to.

2335
02:12:29,440 --> 02:12:32,920
Speaker 6: We'll we'll well, we'll explain why I wasn't at the

2336
02:12:33,360 --> 02:12:35,240
Speaker 6: School of the Art Institute one because.

2337
02:12:35,000 --> 02:12:37,520
Speaker 8: That's a shit show, sixty eight arrests.

2338
02:12:37,960 --> 02:12:38,919
Speaker 6: Yeah, disaster.

2339
02:12:39,320 --> 02:12:40,080
Speaker 3: We will get to that.

2340
02:12:40,160 --> 02:12:42,040
Speaker 6: So the first one I was at was at Northwestern,

2341
02:12:42,360 --> 02:12:44,160
Speaker 6: And I think the other thing that's important about these

2342
02:12:44,200 --> 02:12:49,600
Speaker 6: encampments is that they're really really geographically spread out across

2343
02:12:49,640 --> 02:12:53,000
Speaker 6: the city. So Northwestern is not in Chicago, it is

2344
02:12:53,040 --> 02:12:56,880
Speaker 6: in is it a like is it a suburb called Evanston?

2345
02:12:57,040 --> 02:12:59,400
Speaker 6: Is a very rich suburb. Okay, the other thing we

2346
02:12:59,400 --> 02:13:02,160
Speaker 6: should probably get across this these the Chicago camp it's

2347
02:13:02,200 --> 02:13:05,680
Speaker 6: all started kind of late into this process. They're not

2348
02:13:06,240 --> 02:13:07,880
Speaker 6: there's reasons for this that I can't get into, but

2349
02:13:08,000 --> 02:13:10,640
Speaker 6: they're all kind of late comers. On April twenty fifth,

2350
02:13:10,720 --> 02:13:16,360
Speaker 6: Northwestern one starts and it's a really chill occupation for

2351
02:13:16,480 --> 02:13:18,080
Speaker 6: the most part. So there's like a police raid on

2352
02:13:18,240 --> 02:13:20,280
Speaker 6: night one, but then the kids just come back and

2353
02:13:20,320 --> 02:13:21,760
Speaker 6: put all the tents up again. And then after that,

2354
02:13:22,600 --> 02:13:25,640
Speaker 6: like the Evanston police department is a joke, right, Like

2355
02:13:25,720 --> 02:13:27,920
Speaker 6: they're not I mean, they've probably done terrible things, but

2356
02:13:28,000 --> 02:13:30,000
Speaker 6: like they're not. They're not like the police departments in

2357
02:13:30,040 --> 02:13:32,600
Speaker 6: the rest of the city, who are like the guys

2358
02:13:32,640 --> 02:13:35,040
Speaker 6: you teach the CIA how to torture people, right, Yeah,

2359
02:13:36,440 --> 02:13:38,080
Speaker 6: and so yeah, I wanted to talk a bit about

2360
02:13:38,120 --> 02:13:40,080
Speaker 6: kind of the vibes of it because it was it's

2361
02:13:40,080 --> 02:13:43,720
Speaker 6: a very like early occupation kind of vibe, right. It's

2362
02:13:44,040 --> 02:13:46,640
Speaker 6: I mean, like I walk in, there's it's a bunch

2363
02:13:46,680 --> 02:13:51,600
Speaker 6: of kids like sitting on tents doing homework. People are sleeping,

2364
02:13:52,080 --> 02:13:53,960
Speaker 6: There's like people are like eating meals.

2365
02:13:54,120 --> 02:13:57,120
Speaker 12: Everyone's really happy, very similar to people just hanging out

2366
02:13:57,160 --> 02:13:58,800
Speaker 12: in the quat at Emory and I'm sure many other

2367
02:13:58,880 --> 02:14:02,080
Speaker 12: places around the country. Yeah, I think I think in

2368
02:14:02,160 --> 02:14:04,800
Speaker 12: everything that that should be mentioned is you know, so

2369
02:14:04,920 --> 02:14:06,880
Speaker 12: like obviously these are these are proteo, these are camps

2370
02:14:06,920 --> 02:14:10,240
Speaker 12: insolidated with palessign, right, so you're you're expecting an internationalist event.

2371
02:14:10,400 --> 02:14:13,200
Speaker 12: This one like I walked in there and there is

2372
02:14:13,280 --> 02:14:15,440
Speaker 12: a woman on the stage in the encampment while I

2373
02:14:15,520 --> 02:14:18,320
Speaker 12: say stage, and there's a woman using their sound equipment,

2374
02:14:18,320 --> 02:14:19,520
Speaker 12: which made you quieter.

2375
02:14:21,000 --> 02:14:23,160
Speaker 3: Too, but was talking about the.

2376
02:14:23,200 --> 02:14:25,400
Speaker 6: Zapatistas and this is the thing you see over and

2377
02:14:25,480 --> 02:14:27,120
Speaker 6: over and over again, right, It's like, yeah, these are

2378
02:14:27,160 --> 02:14:28,960
Speaker 6: about these the enchampsts that I'm at are you know,

2379
02:14:29,000 --> 02:14:32,240
Speaker 6: obviously they're about Palestign, But there's this real there's very

2380
02:14:32,400 --> 02:14:36,680
Speaker 6: kind of there's a deep internationalism there that's very tangible

2381
02:14:36,720 --> 02:14:38,360
Speaker 6: and powerful. I mean, like, you know, I was walking

2382
02:14:38,400 --> 02:14:39,960
Speaker 6: through the tamp and I was I was like, you know,

2383
02:14:40,080 --> 02:14:42,160
Speaker 6: there are kids like reading on the on the lawn

2384
02:14:42,240 --> 02:14:43,960
Speaker 6: and I'm like I'm like pointing out like, oh hey,

2385
02:14:44,040 --> 02:14:45,440
Speaker 6: this is that's the copy of The Wretched of the

2386
02:14:45,480 --> 02:14:48,160
Speaker 6: Earth that I have from college. Like you know, it's

2387
02:14:48,160 --> 02:14:50,440
Speaker 6: all stuff like that. It was all very chill. It

2388
02:14:50,600 --> 02:14:53,000
Speaker 6: like rained on us. So we spend much time like

2389
02:14:53,040 --> 02:14:55,960
Speaker 6: waterproofing tents. I think the interesting things about this is

2390
02:14:56,000 --> 02:15:00,280
Speaker 6: that there's a there's a really kind of wild mix

2391
02:15:00,400 --> 02:15:03,040
Speaker 6: of people there. It's it's this, it's this thing you

2392
02:15:03,160 --> 02:15:05,360
Speaker 6: only really get in social movements that are like going

2393
02:15:05,480 --> 02:15:07,680
Speaker 6: somewhere where, you know, I mean I was running into

2394
02:15:07,720 --> 02:15:13,160
Speaker 6: people from groups like old school, like like I ran

2395
02:15:13,240 --> 02:15:15,320
Speaker 6: to zone from students for a democratic society, Like I

2396
02:15:15,320 --> 02:15:17,000
Speaker 6: didn't even know that groups still existed, like I thought

2397
02:15:17,000 --> 02:15:19,960
Speaker 6: I thought went down well, so there there was a

2398
02:15:20,000 --> 02:15:21,520
Speaker 6: second round of them in the two thousands, so I

2399
02:15:21,520 --> 02:15:24,080
Speaker 6: thought they died after that, but apparently not. You know,

2400
02:15:24,160 --> 02:15:26,040
Speaker 6: so you have these mix of people from like groups

2401
02:15:26,080 --> 02:15:28,200
Speaker 6: that everyone thought was dead, right, Like, you know, there's

2402
02:15:28,200 --> 02:15:30,400
Speaker 6: a lot of sort of very experienced, like student organizers.

2403
02:15:30,400 --> 02:15:33,120
Speaker 6: There's also a lot of grad students, which is a dynamic.

2404
02:15:33,120 --> 02:15:35,880
Speaker 6: I don't think it's talked about very much because it's

2405
02:15:36,120 --> 02:15:37,720
Speaker 6: it's not just like eighteen year olds. There are a

2406
02:15:37,720 --> 02:15:39,760
Speaker 6: lot of people in these camps who have been doing

2407
02:15:39,840 --> 02:15:42,480
Speaker 6: this for a very long time. And you know, so

2408
02:15:42,560 --> 02:15:44,760
Speaker 6: you have those people, but you also have people who

2409
02:15:44,960 --> 02:15:46,840
Speaker 6: just I mean, like I talked to people who this

2410
02:15:46,960 --> 02:15:48,920
Speaker 6: was literally their first protest, right, It's like the first

2411
02:15:48,920 --> 02:15:51,600
Speaker 6: thing that evertility they'd ever come out to, And you know,

2412
02:15:52,880 --> 02:15:54,920
Speaker 6: there was this very kind of there's this very sort

2413
02:15:54,960 --> 02:15:58,000
Speaker 6: of camarader ReVibe. What there wasn't was a functional democracy,

2414
02:15:58,520 --> 02:16:01,160
Speaker 6: and that's that's a very Dusty everything about this encampment

2415
02:16:01,240 --> 02:16:04,680
Speaker 6: that was very different than the Chicago one, which I'll

2416
02:16:04,680 --> 02:16:07,760
Speaker 6: be getting to in a second. It's like they there

2417
02:16:07,880 --> 02:16:11,000
Speaker 6: was this sort of there was this group that was

2418
02:16:11,080 --> 02:16:17,320
Speaker 6: negotiating with the administration, and no one could really tell

2419
02:16:17,440 --> 02:16:19,880
Speaker 6: what they were doing. Like every once in a while

2420
02:16:19,880 --> 02:16:22,240
Speaker 6: a representative would come back from them and you'd hear something.

2421
02:16:22,320 --> 02:16:24,640
Speaker 6: But in the meantime, everyone is sort of running around

2422
02:16:24,640 --> 02:16:26,600
Speaker 6: based on rumors, trying to figure out what these people

2423
02:16:26,600 --> 02:16:30,920
Speaker 6: are negotiating. And it turns out what they're negotiating is

2424
02:16:31,080 --> 02:16:35,920
Speaker 6: an end to the protests, and basically the students like, okay,

2425
02:16:35,920 --> 02:16:38,640
Speaker 6: so there's a complicated set of demands. What actually happens

2426
02:16:38,720 --> 02:16:41,080
Speaker 6: is that all of the entire occupation is taken down.

2427
02:16:41,120 --> 02:16:44,360
Speaker 6: After a week, it's completely gone. Now there's nothing there.

2428
02:16:45,240 --> 02:16:49,200
Speaker 6: What they get from it was the university is re

2429
02:16:49,480 --> 02:16:55,840
Speaker 6: establishing an advisory committee on investment responsibilities. They got like

2430
02:16:56,440 --> 02:17:01,000
Speaker 6: question this Northwest supposed to answer questions about holding some

2431
02:17:01,120 --> 02:17:05,680
Speaker 6: stakeholders which may be disclosure, may not be. And they

2432
02:17:05,800 --> 02:17:09,280
Speaker 6: got some stuff that like is real from for like

2433
02:17:09,800 --> 02:17:14,640
Speaker 6: visiting like Palestinian faculty. But basically they didn't get any

2434
02:17:14,720 --> 02:17:17,080
Speaker 6: of the goals of the encampment, right, there's no investments.

2435
02:17:17,360 --> 02:17:21,520
Speaker 6: There's you know, a committee that can make recommendations about

2436
02:17:21,560 --> 02:17:23,840
Speaker 6: the investment, and we'll see if that even happens, because

2437
02:17:23,879 --> 02:17:26,480
Speaker 6: that's supposed to be spun out back in the fall. So,

2438
02:17:26,680 --> 02:17:28,880
Speaker 6: you know, they take down the encampment, they get nothing,

2439
02:17:29,040 --> 02:17:31,760
Speaker 6: they get no leverage, and nothing is you know, and

2440
02:17:32,000 --> 02:17:34,240
Speaker 6: all of the sort of student negotiators, and these negotiators

2441
02:17:34,360 --> 02:17:38,040
Speaker 6: tend they you know, Okay, so there are also like

2442
02:17:38,120 --> 02:17:40,760
Speaker 6: political splits in the camp. Right, It's kind of hard

2443
02:17:40,800 --> 02:17:42,760
Speaker 6: to get a sense of them just from looking at it,

2444
02:17:43,520 --> 02:17:45,360
Speaker 6: but you know, if you talk to enough people, you

2445
02:17:45,400 --> 02:17:47,200
Speaker 6: can sort of get the sense of like what the

2446
02:17:47,280 --> 02:17:51,080
Speaker 6: splits are, right, and Northwestern was sort of split between

2447
02:17:52,280 --> 02:17:55,920
Speaker 6: like the sort of liberal nego student negotiators who are

2448
02:17:56,040 --> 02:17:59,440
Speaker 6: from a lot of like some of the sort of

2449
02:17:59,520 --> 02:18:02,040
Speaker 6: more liberal student organizations, and the people who want to

2450
02:18:02,200 --> 02:18:04,680
Speaker 6: like you know, they're sort of like Baxibleist radicals and

2451
02:18:04,680 --> 02:18:06,800
Speaker 6: the maximust radicals get out maduvry because there's just not

2452
02:18:06,920 --> 02:18:09,400
Speaker 6: enough of them, and so they take the encampment down.

2453
02:18:09,640 --> 02:18:12,160
Speaker 6: And the people who were doing the negotiations had this

2454
02:18:12,200 --> 02:18:14,400
Speaker 6: whole line by we're building power, this is just the beginning,

2455
02:18:14,440 --> 02:18:16,760
Speaker 6: and there's nothing. There's been nothing else. They're screwed. They

2456
02:18:16,840 --> 02:18:18,920
Speaker 6: lost everything. Their negotiating power is gone.

2457
02:18:19,040 --> 02:18:19,680
Speaker 3: They got nothing.

2458
02:18:20,879 --> 02:18:25,600
Speaker 6: So in the wake of this, the University of Chicago

2459
02:18:25,840 --> 02:18:29,480
Speaker 6: encampment starts up. Vnwversit of Chicago complete other side of

2460
02:18:29,520 --> 02:18:33,640
Speaker 6: the city, like Northwestern is in like the like the

2461
02:18:33,800 --> 02:18:38,360
Speaker 6: fucking bougiest, like richest, whitest of the like of like

2462
02:18:38,400 --> 02:18:40,160
Speaker 6: the north side of Chicago, which is like where rich

2463
02:18:40,200 --> 02:18:42,640
Speaker 6: white people are, except I mean, they're not even in Chicago, right,

2464
02:18:42,680 --> 02:18:45,680
Speaker 6: They're they're they're literally like they are they are a

2465
02:18:46,200 --> 02:18:48,960
Speaker 6: They're a suburb. The University of Chicago, on the other hand,

2466
02:18:49,240 --> 02:18:51,280
Speaker 6: is smack dab in the middle of the south side

2467
02:18:51,280 --> 02:18:54,560
Speaker 6: of Chicago. There's the University bubble, and then around the

2468
02:18:54,640 --> 02:18:56,440
Speaker 6: university this is like the heart, like the heart of

2469
02:18:56,440 --> 02:19:00,400
Speaker 6: black Chicago, right, very very different vibe. The other thing

2470
02:19:00,440 --> 02:19:02,520
Speaker 6: that's important about this is so the University of Chicago

2471
02:19:02,720 --> 02:19:06,280
Speaker 6: occupation starts in the context of the massive raids in Columbia,

2472
02:19:06,320 --> 02:19:11,600
Speaker 6: the raid and Humboldt, and very importantly the raids in UCLA, and.

2473
02:19:12,160 --> 02:19:14,400
Speaker 3: Both of both the sort of brutal police.

2474
02:19:14,160 --> 02:19:19,160
Speaker 6: Raid and the like absolute horrowing mass fascist attack on

2475
02:19:19,200 --> 02:19:21,400
Speaker 6: the barricades where you know me of people getting beat

2476
02:19:21,480 --> 02:19:24,000
Speaker 6: up the middle pipes. They're shooting. They're shooting like Fourth

2477
02:19:24,080 --> 02:19:27,320
Speaker 6: of July ass fireworks, like directly into into the people

2478
02:19:27,400 --> 02:19:30,119
Speaker 6: on the barricades. They are trying to kill the protesters.

2479
02:19:30,200 --> 02:19:32,720
Speaker 6: They beat a bunch of student journalists like half to death.

2480
02:19:33,640 --> 02:19:38,000
Speaker 6: And so University of Chicago camp when I get there,

2481
02:19:38,280 --> 02:19:41,240
Speaker 6: is right in the middle of transforming from a kind

2482
02:19:41,280 --> 02:19:44,720
Speaker 6: of like Northwestern style everyone's getting along like singing Kumbaya

2483
02:19:44,840 --> 02:19:48,640
Speaker 6: camp to like an actual fighting camp. Because I get

2484
02:19:48,680 --> 02:19:51,240
Speaker 6: there and like that day I get there at like nine,

2485
02:19:51,480 --> 02:19:54,200
Speaker 6: right three hours from when I get there, they were

2486
02:19:54,240 --> 02:19:57,520
Speaker 6: scheduled to be a giant rally of like right wing

2487
02:19:57,680 --> 02:20:00,480
Speaker 6: frats that is going to go come and attack the encampment.

2488
02:20:01,040 --> 02:20:04,880
Speaker 6: So the vibe is extremely different. It is a fighting camp.

2489
02:20:04,959 --> 02:20:08,000
Speaker 6: Everyone is preparing to, like, you know, fight for their lives.

2490
02:20:08,560 --> 02:20:12,560
Speaker 6: Everyone knows what happens at UCLA, and also everyone knows

2491
02:20:12,600 --> 02:20:15,959
Speaker 6: what happened at Northwestern, and people are fucking pissed. People

2492
02:20:16,080 --> 02:20:19,520
Speaker 6: are like, I mean unbelievably angry that then you know,

2493
02:20:19,640 --> 02:20:23,160
Speaker 6: then their view is the Northwestern camp sold everyone out, sure,

2494
02:20:23,400 --> 02:20:25,840
Speaker 6: and so you know, I mean, and the other thing

2495
02:20:25,879 --> 02:20:27,960
Speaker 6: about Chicago that was different from Northwestern is that U

2496
02:20:28,040 --> 02:20:32,600
Speaker 6: Chicago had has functional general assemblies, So there are like

2497
02:20:32,800 --> 02:20:36,600
Speaker 6: functional democratic meetings where everyone in the camp goes, Okay,

2498
02:20:36,640 --> 02:20:38,200
Speaker 6: we're going to like figure out what we're going to do.

2499
02:20:38,800 --> 02:20:44,440
Speaker 6: And these meetings are people are not happy with, you know,

2500
02:20:44,560 --> 02:20:47,119
Speaker 6: like they're not happy with what happened at the Northwestern.

2501
02:20:47,840 --> 02:20:52,360
Speaker 6: They're also like really pissed off at the third occupation,

2502
02:20:52,920 --> 02:20:54,360
Speaker 6: which was well, I mean, I guess I think that

2503
02:20:54,440 --> 02:20:56,280
Speaker 6: Paul happened in the middle of there. But the third

2504
02:20:56,280 --> 02:20:58,840
Speaker 6: occupation was the occupation at the School of the Art Institute.

2505
02:20:59,000 --> 02:21:01,920
Speaker 6: The School of the Art Institute is literally right in

2506
02:21:02,040 --> 02:21:05,120
Speaker 6: the heart of downtown Chicago. Like it is across like

2507
02:21:05,200 --> 02:21:07,480
Speaker 6: it is like across the street from Ballennium Park. It

2508
02:21:07,600 --> 02:21:10,320
Speaker 6: is like across the street from like the Art Institute

2509
02:21:10,320 --> 02:21:14,320
Speaker 6: of Chicago. It is in like the corporate center of Chicago. Sure,

2510
02:21:14,680 --> 02:21:17,080
Speaker 6: so they they they do. They do an occupation right

2511
02:21:17,480 --> 02:21:19,760
Speaker 6: and inside of like like I think I think they

2512
02:21:20,000 --> 02:21:24,320
Speaker 6: got seven hours in before SWAT teams showed up. They

2513
02:21:24,400 --> 02:21:26,640
Speaker 6: rerest sixty of people. It is a brutal raid.

2514
02:21:26,680 --> 02:21:28,959
Speaker 3: They're they're like the cops are beating people with metal

2515
02:21:29,040 --> 02:21:30,640
Speaker 3: bars like it is.

2516
02:21:30,720 --> 02:21:30,920
Speaker 13: It is.

2517
02:21:31,080 --> 02:21:32,240
Speaker 6: It is fucking terrible.

2518
02:21:32,280 --> 02:21:33,840
Speaker 3: It's it is. It is a bunch of swat teams

2519
02:21:33,879 --> 02:21:36,000
Speaker 3: beating up art students, very switch and harsh.

2520
02:21:36,080 --> 02:21:38,320
Speaker 8: To make sure it doesn't become like a continued thing.

2521
02:21:38,720 --> 02:21:40,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, because because then and this is the thing

2522
02:21:40,440 --> 02:21:43,400
Speaker 6: about but both U Chicago and DePaul to less tuge

2523
02:21:43,440 --> 02:21:48,120
Speaker 6: extent too. But U Chicago and Northwestern are on basically

2524
02:21:48,240 --> 02:21:50,320
Speaker 6: like opposite extremes of the city right there. They're not

2525
02:21:50,360 --> 02:21:52,000
Speaker 6: in the middle of the city, of the downtown area

2526
02:21:52,120 --> 02:21:54,000
Speaker 6: that yeah, like the political league care about. It's on

2527
02:21:54,040 --> 02:21:56,480
Speaker 6: the north side, on the south side. Yeah, yeah, the

2528
02:21:56,520 --> 02:21:59,039
Speaker 6: school the artistry, like this is literally the middle of Chicago.

2529
02:21:59,560 --> 02:22:02,600
Speaker 6: And so they like it's very clear orders are coming

2530
02:22:02,640 --> 02:22:06,000
Speaker 6: down from above that this encampment can't be allowed to stay,

2531
02:22:06,040 --> 02:22:07,760
Speaker 6: and so they get the ship beaten out of them.

2532
02:22:08,240 --> 02:22:10,480
Speaker 6: And this is important for a few reasons. One it

2533
02:22:10,600 --> 02:22:13,040
Speaker 6: kind of like it kind of heightens the fear of

2534
02:22:13,080 --> 02:22:15,640
Speaker 6: police deppression. But the thing that it does that's important

2535
02:22:15,840 --> 02:22:19,720
Speaker 6: is that this goes fucking this like completely backfires on

2536
02:22:20,000 --> 02:22:22,080
Speaker 6: Brandon Johnson and you know, so that's sort of the

2537
02:22:22,640 --> 02:22:26,000
Speaker 6: mayor of the political administration, because this is you know,

2538
02:22:26,080 --> 02:22:28,560
Speaker 6: it turns out people are very very angry that a

2539
02:22:28,600 --> 02:22:30,440
Speaker 6: bunch of swat teams just beat up a bunch of

2540
02:22:30,560 --> 02:22:33,400
Speaker 6: art students with metal bars, right, And the consequence of

2541
02:22:33,480 --> 02:22:36,360
Speaker 6: this is that Brandon Johnson like refuses to or at

2542
02:22:36,440 --> 02:22:39,240
Speaker 6: least openly what he's saying is that he won't use

2543
02:22:39,600 --> 02:22:43,000
Speaker 6: the Chicago Police Department at at at on the University

2544
02:22:43,040 --> 02:22:45,760
Speaker 6: Chicago campus. University of Chicago has its own police force

2545
02:22:45,800 --> 02:22:48,520
Speaker 6: that's about one hundred and fifty officers. It's sort of

2546
02:22:48,600 --> 02:22:50,960
Speaker 6: vaunted as like the largest police force in like the

2547
02:22:51,000 --> 02:22:52,800
Speaker 6: largest pri one of the largest private police forces in

2548
02:22:52,840 --> 02:22:56,760
Speaker 6: the world. You know, they also shot a fucking kit

2549
02:22:56,840 --> 02:22:58,840
Speaker 6: while I was at school there, so you know, I

2550
02:22:58,959 --> 02:23:02,480
Speaker 6: have a like depatriot of them. But what kind of

2551
02:23:02,560 --> 02:23:05,360
Speaker 6: ends up happening is so there's there's that big the

2552
02:23:05,440 --> 02:23:08,320
Speaker 6: day I'm there, there's this big like confentration between protesters

2553
02:23:08,360 --> 02:23:11,400
Speaker 6: and kind of protesters, and you know, the kids form a.

2554
02:23:11,400 --> 02:23:13,560
Speaker 8: Shield protesters and counter protesters.

2555
02:23:14,120 --> 02:23:14,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2556
02:23:14,400 --> 02:23:16,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, so so like the the FRAT show up, there's

2557
02:23:17,000 --> 02:23:19,760
Speaker 6: like a huge right wing media circus, but the kids

2558
02:23:19,840 --> 02:23:21,760
Speaker 6: have a shield wall, and the shield wall fucking holds

2559
02:23:22,000 --> 02:23:25,400
Speaker 6: and the counter protesters can't break it. They eventually back

2560
02:23:25,480 --> 02:23:29,240
Speaker 6: off and they're separated by the cops, and from there

2561
02:23:29,600 --> 02:23:33,000
Speaker 6: things get weird. The encampment gets cleared by a raid

2562
02:23:33,320 --> 02:23:36,400
Speaker 6: that probably could have been stopped, you know, it has

2563
02:23:36,560 --> 02:23:37,920
Speaker 6: they have one of these five am raids.

2564
02:23:38,920 --> 02:23:40,080
Speaker 13: You can't stop the police.

2565
02:23:40,440 --> 02:23:42,039
Speaker 6: Well, okay, So the thing I say about this, though,

2566
02:23:42,120 --> 02:23:45,040
Speaker 6: this is this isn't CPD, this is UCPD. They have

2567
02:23:45,200 --> 02:23:47,480
Speaker 6: like forty total, Like the number of people they can

2568
02:23:47,520 --> 02:23:51,840
Speaker 6: amass at one time is about forty. So like this

2569
02:23:52,120 --> 02:23:55,560
Speaker 6: this was the only occupation that like maybe like plausibly

2570
02:23:55,600 --> 02:23:57,640
Speaker 6: could have actually beaten off the beaten off the police

2571
02:23:57,720 --> 02:24:00,400
Speaker 6: tech because you know, if they only have four people

2572
02:24:00,440 --> 02:24:04,000
Speaker 6: and you have six hundred like that, that that that's

2573
02:24:04,080 --> 02:24:05,959
Speaker 6: about the point at which it's like plugs.

2574
02:24:06,040 --> 02:24:08,240
Speaker 13: It's unusual for cops to engage if they don't have

2575
02:24:08,280 --> 02:24:09,279
Speaker 13: the numerical advantage.

2576
02:24:09,360 --> 02:24:09,640
Speaker 3: That's odd.

2577
02:24:09,879 --> 02:24:12,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, But what happens is that the basically the

2578
02:24:12,720 --> 02:24:16,400
Speaker 6: protesters through through through, like there's a very convoluted process

2579
02:24:16,400 --> 02:24:18,200
Speaker 6: of this. But the protesters decide not to define the camp,

2580
02:24:18,280 --> 02:24:20,200
Speaker 6: so I everyone it gets raided and they'll and like

2581
02:24:20,760 --> 02:24:22,600
Speaker 6: no one has I'm getting arrested, but they destroy the

2582
02:24:22,760 --> 02:24:25,760
Speaker 6: entire camp. And Okay, I guess there's one thing that

2583
02:24:25,879 --> 02:24:28,960
Speaker 6: I I probably should have fit this in better somewhere else.

2584
02:24:29,000 --> 02:24:31,400
Speaker 6: But something that's very interesting about both of these encampments,

2585
02:24:31,440 --> 02:24:33,080
Speaker 6: and this has been true of both of the encampments

2586
02:24:33,120 --> 02:24:36,960
Speaker 6: that I've I've seen, is is who is like the

2587
02:24:37,320 --> 02:24:41,320
Speaker 6: racial and gender composition of who's there, Because these are

2588
02:24:41,480 --> 02:24:42,959
Speaker 6: you know, and you could see this like when you're

2589
02:24:42,959 --> 02:24:46,960
Speaker 6: when when the counter protesters are facing off against the protesters,

2590
02:24:47,000 --> 02:24:51,320
Speaker 6: is the counter protesters they're like exclusively white, like most

2591
02:24:51,360 --> 02:24:55,040
Speaker 6: of them are white frat ros, white CIS dudes usually yeah, yeah.

2592
02:24:55,120 --> 02:25:01,280
Speaker 6: And then in the camps it is basically like it

2593
02:25:01,440 --> 02:25:04,560
Speaker 6: is like non it's non white people of all genders

2594
02:25:04,879 --> 02:25:10,879
Speaker 6: and like non sistued people of all races. Yeah, very

2595
02:25:11,000 --> 02:25:13,280
Speaker 6: very very very prominently. And this this is something that

2596
02:25:13,480 --> 02:25:16,520
Speaker 6: I think is a sign of how the sort of

2597
02:25:16,600 --> 02:25:18,760
Speaker 6: like American political alignment has changed and the kind of

2598
02:25:18,840 --> 02:25:22,120
Speaker 6: kinds of political alliances that are kind of so normal

2599
02:25:22,240 --> 02:25:24,240
Speaker 6: now that we don't even really think about them. But

2600
02:25:24,280 --> 02:25:26,000
Speaker 6: if you step back for a second and look at

2601
02:25:26,000 --> 02:25:28,400
Speaker 6: what's actually happening, this is this is the this is

2602
02:25:28,440 --> 02:25:32,440
Speaker 6: the actual political composition of these protests. It's queer people

2603
02:25:32,520 --> 02:25:35,640
Speaker 6: and non white people and obviously like people like me

2604
02:25:35,720 --> 02:25:38,520
Speaker 6: who are both. And I think that's an important thing

2605
02:25:38,640 --> 02:25:42,080
Speaker 6: because you know, it's it's a dynamic of these camps.

2606
02:25:42,120 --> 02:25:43,840
Speaker 6: It doesn't get talked about, it en off, but is

2607
02:25:44,280 --> 02:25:47,759
Speaker 6: the core thing that's happening like politically.

2608
02:25:47,720 --> 02:25:49,320
Speaker 12: I agree that that was the same that was the

2609
02:25:49,360 --> 02:25:52,880
Speaker 12: same demographic balance at Emory. Let's take another break and

2610
02:25:52,959 --> 02:25:55,160
Speaker 12: we'll come back and hear from Ali and then kind

2611
02:25:55,160 --> 02:25:56,760
Speaker 12: of have a bit more of an open discussion to

2612
02:25:56,760 --> 02:26:00,200
Speaker 12: close things out, comparing the similarities and differences for our

2613
02:26:00,240 --> 02:26:05,600
Speaker 12: experiences at these these four different protest encampments or different cities.

2614
02:26:05,640 --> 02:26:06,119
Speaker 2: I guess.

2615
02:26:16,600 --> 02:26:18,520
Speaker 3: All right, we are back. Mollie.

2616
02:26:19,640 --> 02:26:24,400
Speaker 12: You saw some pretty bad police violence at the camp

2617
02:26:24,560 --> 02:26:25,960
Speaker 12: in Chardsville, I believe right.

2618
02:26:26,520 --> 02:26:26,720
Speaker 3: Yes.

2619
02:26:27,240 --> 02:26:30,280
Speaker 13: The encampment at the University of Virginia was cleared on

2620
02:26:30,560 --> 02:26:35,680
Speaker 13: May fourth by Virginia State Police. It was not a

2621
02:26:35,760 --> 02:26:39,119
Speaker 13: pretty site, so the students at the University of Virginia

2622
02:26:39,360 --> 02:26:42,880
Speaker 13: set up an encampment on April thirtieth in the afternoon

2623
02:26:42,959 --> 02:26:45,440
Speaker 13: of the thirtieth. They had announced ahead of time that

2624
02:26:45,480 --> 02:26:47,800
Speaker 13: there will be programming during the day on May Day.

2625
02:26:48,600 --> 02:26:51,640
Speaker 13: So this sudden setup the day prior was I think

2626
02:26:51,680 --> 02:26:55,800
Speaker 13: a surprise to the university. When the students first put

2627
02:26:55,840 --> 02:26:58,320
Speaker 13: their stuff down, they put up some tents. The police

2628
02:26:58,400 --> 02:27:01,520
Speaker 13: chief of the university Police Force, Timothy Longo, showed up

2629
02:27:01,560 --> 02:27:04,200
Speaker 13: immediately and said, no tense tends to the red line.

2630
02:27:04,320 --> 02:27:07,360
Speaker 13: Take the tents down. So that first night they took

2631
02:27:07,400 --> 02:27:11,360
Speaker 13: the tents down, and so for three nights they slept

2632
02:27:11,400 --> 02:27:14,920
Speaker 13: outside unsheltered because it was clear from the university that

2633
02:27:15,520 --> 02:27:17,800
Speaker 13: the tents are going to be the problem. That's the

2634
02:27:17,879 --> 02:27:19,600
Speaker 13: only issue that we have is the tents. You can

2635
02:27:19,680 --> 02:27:21,320
Speaker 13: be here, you just can't put up the tents, and

2636
02:27:21,400 --> 02:27:24,039
Speaker 13: you can't use amplified sound. You can't be too noisy.

2637
02:27:24,400 --> 02:27:27,039
Speaker 13: The place where they'd set up was this patch of grass.

2638
02:27:27,200 --> 02:27:29,680
Speaker 13: That's so if you're familiar with the University of Virginia,

2639
02:27:29,760 --> 02:27:32,800
Speaker 13: there's the lawn. It's called the lawn. It's not the

2640
02:27:32,879 --> 02:27:34,800
Speaker 13: only grass, but it's just the special grass. It's the

2641
02:27:35,600 --> 02:27:38,720
Speaker 13: grass between the lawn rooms and the rotunda. It's like

2642
02:27:38,800 --> 02:27:40,560
Speaker 13: a long narrow They weren't on the lawn. I think

2643
02:27:40,600 --> 02:27:43,200
Speaker 13: that would have been a much bigger problem for the university,

2644
02:27:43,280 --> 02:27:45,120
Speaker 13: just because of the optics of it, and because students

2645
02:27:45,200 --> 02:27:47,080
Speaker 13: live in the lawn rooms, so they were actually on

2646
02:27:47,160 --> 02:27:49,520
Speaker 13: the other side of the rotunda, in this shady, grassy

2647
02:27:49,520 --> 02:27:54,080
Speaker 13: area between the rotunda and the chapel, so within kind

2648
02:27:54,120 --> 02:27:57,080
Speaker 13: of spitting distance of that statue of Thomas Jefferson that

2649
02:27:57,200 --> 02:28:00,440
Speaker 13: the Nazis famously surrounded in twenty seventeen, so that that

2650
02:28:00,560 --> 02:28:03,400
Speaker 13: same sort of area of the university. So for three

2651
02:28:03,480 --> 02:28:07,000
Speaker 13: nights they were out there unsheltered. It was pretty quiet.

2652
02:28:07,080 --> 02:28:08,840
Speaker 13: It was, you know, a few dozen students. Most of

2653
02:28:08,879 --> 02:28:11,520
Speaker 13: the time classes had just ended, so they were preparing

2654
02:28:11,560 --> 02:28:14,680
Speaker 13: for finals, they were writing papers. I think some afternoons

2655
02:28:14,720 --> 02:28:17,640
Speaker 13: they had tas come out and help people with their

2656
02:28:17,840 --> 02:28:19,279
Speaker 13: with their papers, help them study.

2657
02:28:19,600 --> 02:28:19,720
Speaker 6: You know.

2658
02:28:19,840 --> 02:28:22,040
Speaker 13: It was it was chill, they were they were just

2659
02:28:22,120 --> 02:28:25,000
Speaker 13: kind of out there vibing. And then on the evening

2660
02:28:25,080 --> 02:28:27,080
Speaker 13: of the third they held a vigil for the dead

2661
02:28:27,120 --> 02:28:29,680
Speaker 13: and Palestine. There was great turnout for that. A lot

2662
02:28:29,720 --> 02:28:32,320
Speaker 13: of people came out, students, families, you know, there were

2663
02:28:32,400 --> 02:28:35,760
Speaker 13: babies there, dogs, like it was. It was a safe place, right,

2664
02:28:35,800 --> 02:28:38,119
Speaker 13: It was a place where people felt safe letting their

2665
02:28:38,200 --> 02:28:41,040
Speaker 13: toddlers kick a ball around. Like it was not a

2666
02:28:42,040 --> 02:28:45,480
Speaker 13: violent or embattled environment. There were babies there and they

2667
02:28:45,520 --> 02:28:47,920
Speaker 13: held the vigil and after the vigil they had Shabbot dinner.

2668
02:28:48,480 --> 02:28:50,200
Speaker 13: But as the sun was going down, it was starting

2669
02:28:50,280 --> 02:28:52,480
Speaker 13: to rain, so they put up a pop up tent

2670
02:28:53,040 --> 02:28:55,960
Speaker 13: to cover the Shabbat dinner, you know, the food that

2671
02:28:56,040 --> 02:28:58,240
Speaker 13: had been set out. And it was at that point

2672
02:28:58,320 --> 02:29:01,640
Speaker 13: that they began setting up the camping tents. And you know,

2673
02:29:01,680 --> 02:29:04,440
Speaker 13: they've been told all along by the police chief, you

2674
02:29:04,480 --> 02:29:06,200
Speaker 13: can't put tens up. You can't put tens up. It's

2675
02:29:06,200 --> 02:29:07,960
Speaker 13: against the rules. That's that's when we're going to have

2676
02:29:07,959 --> 02:29:11,000
Speaker 13: to intervene if you put the tense up. But every

2677
02:29:11,080 --> 02:29:15,000
Speaker 13: UVA school policy is available on the school's website. They

2678
02:29:15,040 --> 02:29:17,280
Speaker 13: have a policy database where you can, you know, search

2679
02:29:17,360 --> 02:29:19,640
Speaker 13: by keyword. You can, you know, you can see every

2680
02:29:19,680 --> 02:29:22,320
Speaker 13: official school policy. And the official school policy is that

2681
02:29:23,280 --> 02:29:26,400
Speaker 13: tens are allowed. It's on the website. You can have

2682
02:29:26,480 --> 02:29:29,200
Speaker 13: a tent. And so now this, you know, the university

2683
02:29:29,280 --> 02:29:32,120
Speaker 13: is saying that this discrepancy as well. You know that

2684
02:29:32,200 --> 02:29:35,600
Speaker 13: actually isn't a policy. It was a sort it's guidance

2685
02:29:35,920 --> 02:29:40,200
Speaker 13: on the policy. But it is in the policy database

2686
02:29:40,280 --> 02:29:43,000
Speaker 13: on the policy website where they keep the policies and

2687
02:29:43,080 --> 02:29:45,560
Speaker 13: it says guideline on it, and a guideline it's a

2688
02:29:45,600 --> 02:29:47,800
Speaker 13: synonym for a policy. So they are there. I think

2689
02:29:47,840 --> 02:29:49,560
Speaker 13: the lesson to take away here, you know, I'm not

2690
02:29:49,600 --> 02:29:52,720
Speaker 13: going to Monday morning quarterback the student organizers. I was

2691
02:29:52,800 --> 02:29:55,240
Speaker 13: not privy to internal discussions. I don't think that's my role.

2692
02:29:56,440 --> 02:29:59,120
Speaker 13: I think the takeaway here though, is that they're always

2693
02:29:59,200 --> 02:30:03,360
Speaker 13: going to move the posts. The only protest the administration

2694
02:30:03,520 --> 02:30:06,119
Speaker 13: will ever approve of is one that happened at least

2695
02:30:06,160 --> 02:30:09,000
Speaker 13: thirty years ago. Right, you have to be decades removed

2696
02:30:09,040 --> 02:30:12,040
Speaker 13: from progress to see it as positive. They never like

2697
02:30:12,120 --> 02:30:15,080
Speaker 13: progress while it's happening. They never like protest while it

2698
02:30:15,200 --> 02:30:18,760
Speaker 13: is happening. There's nothing you can do that will be allowed. Right,

2699
02:30:18,760 --> 02:30:21,200
Speaker 13: Because the entire time of those first three days, when

2700
02:30:21,240 --> 02:30:23,360
Speaker 13: the police were keeping their distance, they were always there.

2701
02:30:23,520 --> 02:30:25,760
Speaker 13: There was always this sort of like needling back and

2702
02:30:25,879 --> 02:30:28,320
Speaker 13: forth while you know, can you just can you adjust this,

2703
02:30:28,560 --> 02:30:30,560
Speaker 13: can you change this kind of behavior, like you know

2704
02:30:30,640 --> 02:30:32,400
Speaker 13: you're not breaking the rules yet, but just you know,

2705
02:30:32,480 --> 02:30:36,840
Speaker 13: we're watching, be careful, this constant needling. And so in

2706
02:30:36,879 --> 02:30:39,080
Speaker 13: the end on the fourth when the Virginia State Police

2707
02:30:39,080 --> 02:30:43,760
Speaker 13: showed up, you know, up until that point, the idea was, well,

2708
02:30:43,800 --> 02:30:46,000
Speaker 13: the provocation was the tense. The problem was the tents.

2709
02:30:46,040 --> 02:30:48,440
Speaker 13: The police had to become because of the tents. You

2710
02:30:48,520 --> 02:30:53,400
Speaker 13: know that the policy on the school's website changed Saturday morning,

2711
02:30:53,600 --> 02:30:56,600
Speaker 13: like we have the you know, the cash on the website.

2712
02:30:56,640 --> 02:30:59,119
Speaker 13: You can see when the PDF was altered.

2713
02:30:59,200 --> 02:30:59,560
Speaker 2: It was that.

2714
02:31:00,360 --> 02:31:03,240
Speaker 13: So it's like, is it about the tents? Did you

2715
02:31:03,360 --> 02:31:06,600
Speaker 13: change this policy as pretext for the police raid? Because

2716
02:31:06,640 --> 02:31:09,080
Speaker 13: now in the aftermath, since they were caught out changing

2717
02:31:09,160 --> 02:31:12,440
Speaker 13: that policy immediately before the police raided the camp, they're saying, well, no, actually,

2718
02:31:13,000 --> 02:31:15,280
Speaker 13: actually it wasn't about the tents. That's not really what

2719
02:31:15,360 --> 02:31:18,640
Speaker 13: this is about. It's because they're saying now that you know,

2720
02:31:18,920 --> 02:31:22,800
Speaker 13: four men in essentially a black block, right, So four

2721
02:31:22,920 --> 02:31:25,680
Speaker 13: men in black were carrying backpacks with helmets were seen

2722
02:31:25,720 --> 02:31:27,840
Speaker 13: in the area and they're known to law enforcement. And

2723
02:31:28,480 --> 02:31:30,959
Speaker 13: I'll be honest with you, I did not see these individuals.

2724
02:31:31,480 --> 02:31:36,400
Speaker 13: But at the same time, who care who? It's public property, right,

2725
02:31:36,440 --> 02:31:40,200
Speaker 13: this is a public university. You know, this outside agitator narrative.

2726
02:31:40,200 --> 02:31:42,160
Speaker 13: You know, we had to beat and Pepper's bray these

2727
02:31:42,160 --> 02:31:45,200
Speaker 13: students because of these mysterious men. But at the same time,

2728
02:31:45,640 --> 02:31:47,520
Speaker 13: you know, the entire time that the students were in

2729
02:31:47,560 --> 02:31:51,800
Speaker 13: the encampment, they had faculty liaisons from Faculty for Justice

2730
02:31:51,840 --> 02:31:55,680
Speaker 13: in Palestine, and the faculty liaison were not you know, negotiating,

2731
02:31:55,720 --> 02:31:58,600
Speaker 13: because students were clear that there was no negotiation, right that,

2732
02:31:58,879 --> 02:32:00,640
Speaker 13: you know, they're not negotiating on their demands, but that

2733
02:32:00,760 --> 02:32:05,160
Speaker 13: all communication between admin and the police into the encampment

2734
02:32:05,240 --> 02:32:07,520
Speaker 13: came through these faculty liaisons and they were in constant

2735
02:32:07,640 --> 02:32:12,120
Speaker 13: open communication. And the faculty liaisms are saying, well, if

2736
02:32:12,160 --> 02:32:14,840
Speaker 13: there was someone dangerous here, if the police had identified

2737
02:32:14,879 --> 02:32:17,480
Speaker 13: like a you know, an actual danger in this space,

2738
02:32:17,920 --> 02:32:20,360
Speaker 13: they never communicated that to us, right that before this

2739
02:32:20,520 --> 02:32:22,640
Speaker 13: raid happened, no one ever said to the faculty liaison,

2740
02:32:23,280 --> 02:32:26,280
Speaker 13: someone here is dangerous, there's a known criminal here, there's

2741
02:32:26,360 --> 02:32:28,800
Speaker 13: you know, this is why this has to That was

2742
02:32:28,879 --> 02:32:31,280
Speaker 13: never communicated. So I'm not sure these you know, four

2743
02:32:31,360 --> 02:32:33,480
Speaker 13: mysterious individuals exist.

2744
02:32:33,800 --> 02:32:34,200
Speaker 8: I don't know.

2745
02:32:34,280 --> 02:32:36,880
Speaker 13: I think that is a manufactured, you know, sort of

2746
02:32:36,959 --> 02:32:40,480
Speaker 13: after the fact pretext. But in any case, on Saturday morning,

2747
02:32:41,200 --> 02:32:46,200
Speaker 13: the anniversary of the Kent State massacre, state police showed

2748
02:32:46,280 --> 02:32:50,520
Speaker 13: up a lot of them all at once, and there

2749
02:32:50,640 --> 02:32:54,240
Speaker 13: was you know, the local police set up a perimeter

2750
02:32:54,320 --> 02:32:56,760
Speaker 13: around the encampment. And again, so it had been raining

2751
02:32:56,800 --> 02:32:59,440
Speaker 13: all night. It was soaking wet. Like I showed up

2752
02:32:59,440 --> 02:33:02,200
Speaker 13: Saturday morning to take some wet blankets home to wash them,

2753
02:33:02,240 --> 02:33:05,680
Speaker 13: because things seemed fine, Things were very calm. Again, there

2754
02:33:05,720 --> 02:33:08,119
Speaker 13: had been babies there the day before. It was very calm,

2755
02:33:08,200 --> 02:33:10,959
Speaker 13: and so I thought, well, I'll wash their wet blankets

2756
02:33:11,000 --> 02:33:12,920
Speaker 13: and socks and bring them back and then we can,

2757
02:33:13,040 --> 02:33:15,920
Speaker 13: you know, they can regroup and move forward. And while

2758
02:33:15,959 --> 02:33:19,000
Speaker 13: I was in home washing wet socks, I heard that

2759
02:33:19,080 --> 02:33:21,800
Speaker 13: the raid was starting. And again so you know, because

2760
02:33:21,840 --> 02:33:23,360
Speaker 13: it had been raining, and it was a pretty small

2761
02:33:23,360 --> 02:33:25,920
Speaker 13: protest to begin with, people are doing their finals. There

2762
02:33:25,959 --> 02:33:28,600
Speaker 13: were maybe a few dozen people there, like a few

2763
02:33:28,720 --> 02:33:32,240
Speaker 13: dozen at most. But once the riot cops showed up,

2764
02:33:32,320 --> 02:33:35,560
Speaker 13: people start pouring out of the libraries. Hundreds and hundreds

2765
02:33:35,600 --> 02:33:38,840
Speaker 13: of students come to see what all the noise is about, right,

2766
02:33:38,840 --> 02:33:41,240
Speaker 13: they come to see what the disturbance is about. The

2767
02:33:41,360 --> 02:33:45,120
Speaker 13: university used the emergency alert system that texts students. It

2768
02:33:45,240 --> 02:33:47,640
Speaker 13: sends texts and emails for emergencies, you know, things like

2769
02:33:48,160 --> 02:33:51,640
Speaker 13: a fire or a tornado or a mass shooting. Right

2770
02:33:51,720 --> 02:33:54,320
Speaker 13: that a lot of these students have recent memory of

2771
02:33:54,560 --> 02:33:57,080
Speaker 13: a very serious shooting here that they got these texts for.

2772
02:33:57,360 --> 02:34:00,160
Speaker 13: These texts are for real emergencies, but they use the

2773
02:34:00,200 --> 02:34:03,039
Speaker 13: emergency alert system to tell students to avoid the area.

2774
02:34:03,200 --> 02:34:05,680
Speaker 13: So of course they poured into the area to see

2775
02:34:05,680 --> 02:34:08,240
Speaker 13: what was happening, and so they set up a perimeter

2776
02:34:08,240 --> 02:34:10,200
Speaker 13: around the camp so the people inside could not get

2777
02:34:10,240 --> 02:34:11,840
Speaker 13: out and the people who came to see what was

2778
02:34:11,879 --> 02:34:14,320
Speaker 13: happening could not get in, and a lie on riot

2779
02:34:14,360 --> 02:34:18,840
Speaker 13: cops marched into the camp and just bludgeoned and pepper

2780
02:34:18,920 --> 02:34:21,600
Speaker 13: sprayed at like point blank range. Pepper sprang them directly

2781
02:34:21,680 --> 02:34:25,040
Speaker 13: into their mouth, nose, and eyes. I think one student

2782
02:34:25,240 --> 02:34:27,600
Speaker 13: was wearing goggles and they removed her goggles so they

2783
02:34:27,600 --> 02:34:29,640
Speaker 13: could spray her directly in the eyes while she was

2784
02:34:29,680 --> 02:34:34,080
Speaker 13: already prone on the ground. One woman was having a seizure,

2785
02:34:34,240 --> 02:34:37,520
Speaker 13: but they didn't stop arresting her to let her seize

2786
02:34:37,560 --> 02:34:39,280
Speaker 13: in peace, and they were just sort of dragging her

2787
02:34:39,360 --> 02:34:43,840
Speaker 13: limp body away. It was very nasty and once they

2788
02:34:43,920 --> 02:34:47,720
Speaker 13: made their leave twenty six arrests, they turned on the

2789
02:34:47,800 --> 02:34:50,039
Speaker 13: crowd that had gathered to watch, and they started pushing

2790
02:34:50,080 --> 02:34:53,400
Speaker 13: this massive crowd of students out into the street. They

2791
02:34:53,440 --> 02:34:55,400
Speaker 13: didn't close the street, like there was a dean on

2792
02:34:55,640 --> 02:34:58,280
Speaker 13: scene who was watching this happen and sort of making

2793
02:34:58,320 --> 02:35:00,560
Speaker 13: frantic phone calls to try and close the street that

2794
02:35:00,640 --> 02:35:02,480
Speaker 13: the students were being pushed into because it was an

2795
02:35:02,520 --> 02:35:05,880
Speaker 13: open street with traffic. And then the frat boys showed up, right, so,

2796
02:35:06,000 --> 02:35:07,400
Speaker 13: you know, the students are coming out to see. Some

2797
02:35:07,480 --> 02:35:09,039
Speaker 13: of them are joining the protests, some of them are

2798
02:35:09,120 --> 02:35:11,240
Speaker 13: just curious, and all of a sudden, now there's an

2799
02:35:11,400 --> 02:35:13,920
Speaker 13: entire hillside covered in frat boys. Some of them have

2800
02:35:14,000 --> 02:35:17,280
Speaker 13: Israeli flags, some of them have American flags. And there

2801
02:35:17,320 --> 02:35:19,040
Speaker 13: were times as that, you know, the police were you know,

2802
02:35:19,480 --> 02:35:21,320
Speaker 13: I'm very short, I'm about five feet tall, so there

2803
02:35:21,360 --> 02:35:23,200
Speaker 13: were times as the police were pushing towards us. I

2804
02:35:23,280 --> 02:35:25,760
Speaker 13: can't actually see that because the person in front of

2805
02:35:25,800 --> 02:35:27,800
Speaker 13: me is taller than me, and I would know the

2806
02:35:27,879 --> 02:35:30,800
Speaker 13: police were starting to advance again because the frat boys

2807
02:35:30,920 --> 02:35:34,400
Speaker 13: would cheer. They would start cheering, and you know, at

2808
02:35:34,400 --> 02:35:37,640
Speaker 13: one point, I'm standing next to this older professor. You know,

2809
02:35:37,720 --> 02:35:40,160
Speaker 13: I don'tant to call anybody elderly, right, but this was

2810
02:35:40,200 --> 02:35:43,800
Speaker 13: this sort of a grandmotherly professor who had been Pepper

2811
02:35:43,840 --> 02:35:46,320
Speaker 13: sprayed and was, you know, shouldered or shoulder with students,

2812
02:35:46,480 --> 02:35:48,800
Speaker 13: And she looked over at those frat boys and she said,

2813
02:35:49,760 --> 02:35:52,560
Speaker 13: I don't know how we're supposed to teach them.

2814
02:35:53,200 --> 02:35:54,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, like it.

2815
02:35:55,240 --> 02:35:57,520
Speaker 13: I mean, I expect a cop to be a cop.

2816
02:35:57,600 --> 02:35:59,920
Speaker 13: I've been pushed around by a cop before. I'll also

2817
02:36:01,520 --> 02:36:04,960
Speaker 13: but I've never seen a cheering section for police violence before,

2818
02:36:05,760 --> 02:36:06,039
Speaker 13: and like.

2819
02:36:06,360 --> 02:36:08,680
Speaker 12: I have a few times, and it's one of the

2820
02:36:08,720 --> 02:36:12,760
Speaker 12: most disturbing feelings I've ever had, is when you have

2821
02:36:13,400 --> 02:36:17,320
Speaker 12: police attacking people and there's a group of like twenty

2822
02:36:17,440 --> 02:36:19,120
Speaker 12: to fifty to one hundred people on the other side

2823
02:36:19,120 --> 02:36:21,720
Speaker 12: of the police cheering them on. It's it's one of

2824
02:36:21,760 --> 02:36:26,240
Speaker 12: the most like like death worshiping moments in my life

2825
02:36:26,320 --> 02:36:27,320
Speaker 12: that I've like felt like.

2826
02:36:27,400 --> 02:36:30,160
Speaker 13: It's very ugly, very very ugly.

2827
02:36:30,959 --> 02:36:33,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it reminds me of how like in It's not

2828
02:36:33,320 --> 02:36:37,920
Speaker 3: the same, but like like in Napoleonic Area, for certain battles,

2829
02:36:38,040 --> 02:36:40,400
Speaker 3: it became a thing to go and spectate and people

2830
02:36:40,440 --> 02:36:43,160
Speaker 3: would sit on hills and watch the like formations move

2831
02:36:43,280 --> 02:36:47,879
Speaker 3: and literally have a picnic, right and have this is real? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

2832
02:36:48,320 --> 02:36:50,320
Speaker 3: they did it in Turkey in the Battle of Kabani too.

2833
02:36:50,440 --> 02:36:54,000
Speaker 3: Like people they call it media Hill until the Turkish

2834
02:36:54,000 --> 02:36:58,039
Speaker 3: police take guests the BBC guys who were there, do you.

2835
02:36:58,080 --> 02:37:01,480
Speaker 8: Know, how do you know a round numbers for arrests

2836
02:37:01,879 --> 02:37:03,160
Speaker 8: or anything like that.

2837
02:37:03,640 --> 02:37:05,800
Speaker 13: I believe there were twenty six arrests, the majority of

2838
02:37:05,840 --> 02:37:08,920
Speaker 13: them students. One was a professor, one was a reporter,

2839
02:37:09,760 --> 02:37:11,840
Speaker 13: but a lot of students and grad students. And again, like,

2840
02:37:12,080 --> 02:37:13,920
Speaker 13: I think it's important to talk about this idea of

2841
02:37:13,959 --> 02:37:15,880
Speaker 13: the outside agitator, right because I don't want to get

2842
02:37:15,879 --> 02:37:17,600
Speaker 13: bogged down and like, oh, you know, a third of

2843
02:37:17,640 --> 02:37:20,520
Speaker 13: the arrests were not affiliated with the university. That doesn't

2844
02:37:20,800 --> 02:37:25,840
Speaker 13: mean anything, right, Like Charlottesville is a college town. Charlottesville

2845
02:37:26,080 --> 02:37:29,720
Speaker 13: is UVA. UVA is Charlottesville. It is the largest employer

2846
02:37:29,800 --> 02:37:31,480
Speaker 13: in the region. It is sort of the you know,

2847
02:37:31,560 --> 02:37:34,959
Speaker 13: the iconic focal point of the region. It's a public school.

2848
02:37:35,080 --> 02:37:38,080
Speaker 13: People attend sporting events there, They attend concerts that like

2849
02:37:38,120 --> 02:37:41,880
Speaker 13: our largest local concert venue as a UVA property. You know,

2850
02:37:42,320 --> 02:37:45,920
Speaker 13: I did attend UBA, and I sometimes speak at classes

2851
02:37:45,920 --> 02:37:47,960
Speaker 13: at UBA, so like I have some sort of tangential

2852
02:37:48,000 --> 02:37:51,119
Speaker 13: affiliation with the university, but I don't have to justify

2853
02:37:51,200 --> 02:37:54,000
Speaker 13: my presence there, right. I mean, that's like saying you

2854
02:37:54,040 --> 02:37:57,520
Speaker 13: can't protest Elbit or Boeing unless you purchase bomb systems

2855
02:37:57,640 --> 02:37:58,199
Speaker 13: or work.

2856
02:37:58,080 --> 02:38:01,640
Speaker 8: There, right right, Yeah, it's ridiculous.

2857
02:38:01,320 --> 02:38:04,120
Speaker 13: What this enormous institution does with its billions of my

2858
02:38:04,360 --> 02:38:07,320
Speaker 13: tax dollars. Actually is my business. It is my business.

2859
02:38:07,360 --> 02:38:10,080
Speaker 13: And if you're going to beat teenagers in my backyard,

2860
02:38:10,400 --> 02:38:11,679
Speaker 13: that is my business.

2861
02:38:12,920 --> 02:38:16,200
Speaker 3: Right yeah, And like this is yeah, the university is

2862
02:38:16,200 --> 02:38:18,360
Speaker 3: part of the community. They spend their entire like three

2863
02:38:18,440 --> 02:38:20,880
Speaker 3: hundred and sixty four days a year that that is

2864
02:38:20,920 --> 02:38:23,760
Speaker 3: their messaging. And yeah, let's as suit if the community

2865
02:38:23,800 --> 02:38:25,320
Speaker 3: shows up for the university, they change that.

2866
02:38:25,600 --> 02:38:28,200
Speaker 12: Let's maybe you have like a brief discussion about some

2867
02:38:28,240 --> 02:38:30,200
Speaker 12: of this. I think one thing I'm afterely hearing from

2868
02:38:30,280 --> 02:38:33,520
Speaker 12: from you, Mollie, is like like the presence of tents

2869
02:38:33,800 --> 02:38:36,879
Speaker 12: is seen as like a massive like sign of like escalation,

2870
02:38:37,080 --> 02:38:39,560
Speaker 12: like this this is this is there for some reason,

2871
02:38:39,640 --> 02:38:41,520
Speaker 12: that's where they decided to draw the line. It's like

2872
02:38:41,560 --> 02:38:43,280
Speaker 12: when tents are going up and that's what needs to

2873
02:38:43,320 --> 02:38:44,039
Speaker 12: be cracked down.

2874
02:38:43,959 --> 02:38:46,440
Speaker 13: On, which makes no sense because like I said, they'd

2875
02:38:46,520 --> 02:38:48,360
Speaker 13: been sleeping there for three days.

2876
02:38:48,600 --> 02:38:53,240
Speaker 12: Sure, not wanting to be very symbolic. Yeah, it's very symbolic.

2877
02:38:53,400 --> 02:38:54,920
Speaker 12: Like I think if especially if you look at like

2878
02:38:55,160 --> 02:38:57,840
Speaker 12: the images from the Columbia Quad, like it's a very

2879
02:38:57,840 --> 02:39:01,560
Speaker 12: symbolic thing of like tenses, like we are like staking territory,

2880
02:39:01,680 --> 02:39:05,040
Speaker 12: like literally putting down stakes. Yeah, I think like that

2881
02:39:05,280 --> 02:39:08,000
Speaker 12: that is has been a massive thing. I think it's

2882
02:39:08,040 --> 02:39:12,760
Speaker 12: interesting the universities that have and haven't had barricades set up,

2883
02:39:12,840 --> 02:39:14,720
Speaker 12: Like there was there was no barricades at every there

2884
02:39:14,760 --> 02:39:17,320
Speaker 12: was no really attempt to put barricades up. And you

2885
02:39:17,400 --> 02:39:20,080
Speaker 12: have like, you know, pretty pretty big barricades in Portland

2886
02:39:20,520 --> 02:39:24,000
Speaker 12: of course, and then like Humboldt being really the one

2887
02:39:24,040 --> 02:39:26,320
Speaker 12: that was like no, like you could like hold down

2888
02:39:26,360 --> 02:39:28,400
Speaker 12: a space for like a while if you have like

2889
02:39:29,240 --> 02:39:31,800
Speaker 12: lots of barricades. We see that, we see that in

2890
02:39:32,640 --> 02:39:37,000
Speaker 12: LA and I know the difference between the bear kids

2891
02:39:37,040 --> 02:39:38,640
Speaker 12: going up and the barricades not and how that that

2892
02:39:38,720 --> 02:39:41,360
Speaker 12: does kind of slow. That's just slow a police story.

2893
02:39:41,400 --> 02:39:44,039
Speaker 12: That just slow some police response. And I think one

2894
02:39:44,040 --> 02:39:45,720
Speaker 12: of the one of the one of the dynamics we

2895
02:39:45,800 --> 02:39:49,000
Speaker 12: have there is like at least her a emory, right,

2896
02:39:49,080 --> 02:39:51,640
Speaker 12: we had the first day people faced you know, a

2897
02:39:51,680 --> 02:39:53,640
Speaker 12: pretty sizable amount of plice violence. You know, there was

2898
02:39:54,000 --> 02:39:57,160
Speaker 12: like twenty twenty eight arrests. A lot of people were

2899
02:39:57,160 --> 02:39:59,920
Speaker 12: assaulted by police. And for many people, this this was

2900
02:40:00,080 --> 02:40:02,280
Speaker 12: their first protest. A lot of these people were too

2901
02:40:02,400 --> 02:40:04,960
Speaker 12: young to participate in twenty twenty, which is kind of

2902
02:40:05,080 --> 02:40:07,840
Speaker 12: you know, odd looking back on it, but yeah, a

2903
02:40:07,840 --> 02:40:09,960
Speaker 12: lot of these people were quite young, and this is

2904
02:40:10,040 --> 02:40:12,680
Speaker 12: their first experience of like police brutality in person.

2905
02:40:13,320 --> 02:40:15,600
Speaker 13: And like what a first protest though, I mean, like

2906
02:40:15,760 --> 02:40:18,240
Speaker 13: I'm trying to think back to like, you know, usually

2907
02:40:18,280 --> 02:40:22,199
Speaker 13: your first protest doesn't end like this. Sorry, my dogs

2908
02:40:22,200 --> 02:40:24,680
Speaker 13: are going crazy right now, but I you know, I

2909
02:40:25,080 --> 02:40:27,560
Speaker 13: was thinking about this. It's just I think it's a

2910
02:40:28,840 --> 02:40:32,360
Speaker 13: radicalizing and traumatizing first protest experience for a lot of

2911
02:40:32,440 --> 02:40:35,280
Speaker 13: young people. I was talking to a young student. Want

2912
02:40:35,320 --> 02:40:36,920
Speaker 13: to give too much information about her, but she was

2913
02:40:37,040 --> 02:40:38,880
Speaker 13: quite young, right, It was, you know, one of her

2914
02:40:38,920 --> 02:40:43,280
Speaker 13: first protest experiences. And she said, when the cop approached

2915
02:40:43,320 --> 02:40:46,000
Speaker 13: her with something in his hand, she didn't know what

2916
02:40:46,120 --> 02:40:50,840
Speaker 13: it was, and she couldn't understand what he was doing

2917
02:40:50,959 --> 02:40:53,119
Speaker 13: or what he wanted from her. And it wasn't until

2918
02:40:53,160 --> 02:40:55,880
Speaker 13: he raised the object above his head that she had

2919
02:40:55,959 --> 02:41:00,480
Speaker 13: this realization that he can hit me. Yeah, only can

2920
02:41:00,560 --> 02:41:02,400
Speaker 13: he hit me, but he is going to hit me.

2921
02:41:02,520 --> 02:41:05,800
Speaker 13: That like, to have that realization in real time that

2922
02:41:05,879 --> 02:41:08,119
Speaker 13: you are not safe in your body, that the state

2923
02:41:08,160 --> 02:41:10,960
Speaker 13: will carry out violence against you. To not have known

2924
02:41:11,040 --> 02:41:14,800
Speaker 13: that before and to find it out as it is happening,

2925
02:41:14,879 --> 02:41:16,720
Speaker 13: I think is truly horrifying.

2926
02:41:17,040 --> 02:41:18,959
Speaker 12: Well, yeah, and so we have all these people who've

2927
02:41:18,959 --> 02:41:21,440
Speaker 12: experienced it now for the first time, and when they,

2928
02:41:21,600 --> 02:41:25,400
Speaker 12: you know, return to the campus the next day, they

2929
02:41:25,440 --> 02:41:27,680
Speaker 12: don't want to go through that traumatic event again, Like

2930
02:41:27,760 --> 02:41:31,040
Speaker 12: they don't want to. And so after we saw this

2931
02:41:31,120 --> 02:41:33,160
Speaker 12: in a few cities, but we saw this even in Columbia,

2932
02:41:33,560 --> 02:41:37,280
Speaker 12: but like after the first police response, how people behave

2933
02:41:37,400 --> 02:41:40,440
Speaker 12: afterwards on campus can be quite different because they really

2934
02:41:40,520 --> 02:41:42,959
Speaker 12: don't want that, and now admin is able to kind

2935
02:41:42,959 --> 02:41:45,040
Speaker 12: of use threat of police. It's a very effective to

2936
02:41:45,160 --> 02:41:47,320
Speaker 12: turn to be like, hey, if you keep things kind

2937
02:41:47,320 --> 02:41:49,520
Speaker 12: of chill, no tense, nothing crazy.

2938
02:41:49,600 --> 02:41:51,440
Speaker 8: But if you just hang out on the quad, that's it.

2939
02:41:51,840 --> 02:41:54,360
Speaker 12: Like that's fine, but if you do anything else, we're

2940
02:41:54,400 --> 02:41:57,160
Speaker 12: gonna call in those guys again and they're gonna fuck

2941
02:41:57,200 --> 02:41:59,920
Speaker 12: you up even worse. And like that is a very

2942
02:42:00,040 --> 02:42:02,560
Speaker 12: very effective and scaring people away from from doing anything.

2943
02:42:02,640 --> 02:42:06,000
Speaker 12: And I think a big thing to navigate here is

2944
02:42:06,080 --> 02:42:08,440
Speaker 12: like how how can you get students to feel like

2945
02:42:08,560 --> 02:42:11,080
Speaker 12: empowered once again, to like actually be able to do stuff.

2946
02:42:11,400 --> 02:42:13,760
Speaker 12: There was this there's there's this one moment at Emory

2947
02:42:14,080 --> 02:42:16,840
Speaker 12: where some like some other like like more like you know,

2948
02:42:17,520 --> 02:42:20,640
Speaker 12: more militanty. I don't know their exact affiliation at the university.

2949
02:42:20,680 --> 02:42:23,160
Speaker 12: I don't care, but so some more some more like militant,

2950
02:42:23,200 --> 02:42:26,720
Speaker 12: need more anarchistic people. Because it's Atlanta, we're like kind

2951
02:42:26,720 --> 02:42:29,040
Speaker 12: of like like shaming some of the students for not

2952
02:42:29,160 --> 02:42:31,760
Speaker 12: like doing more stuff. Like they got on the microphone

2953
02:42:31,800 --> 02:42:33,200
Speaker 12: and were like shaving them be like hey, this this

2954
02:42:33,280 --> 02:42:36,280
Speaker 12: isn't a protest, You're just you're just hanging out, and like,

2955
02:42:37,480 --> 02:42:40,240
Speaker 12: I I get it, but also like what is that

2956
02:42:40,640 --> 02:42:42,760
Speaker 12: going to accomplish? I think I think shaming people for

2957
02:42:42,879 --> 02:42:44,880
Speaker 12: being scared of police is not effective. You need to

2958
02:42:45,080 --> 02:42:47,520
Speaker 12: you need to help them to feel empowered, and that

2959
02:42:47,600 --> 02:42:49,199
Speaker 12: that's a very different thing to navigate.

2960
02:42:50,120 --> 02:42:52,480
Speaker 13: And you can't expect, you know, can't expect their first

2961
02:42:52,520 --> 02:42:55,680
Speaker 13: protest action to be all out militant, nor should you

2962
02:42:55,760 --> 02:42:58,320
Speaker 13: want it to be. Like I'm sure I think one

2963
02:42:58,320 --> 02:43:01,320
Speaker 13: of the things to remember is that, you know, what

2964
02:43:01,440 --> 02:43:03,920
Speaker 13: does success look like that if you know, most of

2965
02:43:03,959 --> 02:43:06,760
Speaker 13: these university encampments aren't going to win divestment, right, They

2966
02:43:06,760 --> 02:43:09,080
Speaker 13: all have really similar demands and they include you know,

2967
02:43:09,280 --> 02:43:11,520
Speaker 13: divestment of university funds, and most of them aren't going

2968
02:43:11,560 --> 02:43:14,040
Speaker 13: to get that. But I think you can still envision

2969
02:43:14,160 --> 02:43:17,800
Speaker 13: success as you know, these are young people. They are

2970
02:43:18,320 --> 02:43:21,520
Speaker 13: learning to organize together, they're learning to create that space together,

2971
02:43:21,600 --> 02:43:24,280
Speaker 13: they are coming together to talk about this issue, and

2972
02:43:24,360 --> 02:43:26,960
Speaker 13: I think that can be success. I don't think you

2973
02:43:27,080 --> 02:43:29,400
Speaker 13: have to bleed to have succeeded.

2974
02:43:29,200 --> 02:43:32,040
Speaker 12: No, totally, absolutely. I think just this being a learning

2975
02:43:32,040 --> 02:43:34,200
Speaker 12: experience for people, and now you have a lot of

2976
02:43:34,320 --> 02:43:37,439
Speaker 12: both professors and students whose view of police will forever

2977
02:43:37,520 --> 02:43:40,040
Speaker 12: be different, which you know, in the long run, it's

2978
02:43:40,080 --> 02:43:42,240
Speaker 12: probably I would view that as like a quote unquote

2979
02:43:42,280 --> 02:43:44,000
Speaker 12: good thing, even though it is you know, it's short

2980
02:43:44,080 --> 02:43:47,640
Speaker 12: term trauma and possibly long term trauma. But like you

2981
02:43:47,800 --> 02:43:49,800
Speaker 12: have a much more accurate view of how the world

2982
02:43:49,879 --> 02:43:52,640
Speaker 12: works now, especially for a lot of these like Ivy

2983
02:43:52,720 --> 02:43:55,960
Speaker 12: League kids who've never never thought of police as a

2984
02:43:56,080 --> 02:43:59,160
Speaker 12: threat before. Police is always like a helper, right, A

2985
02:43:59,160 --> 02:44:01,960
Speaker 12: lot of these are like you know, good kids exactly, Yeah,

2986
02:44:02,320 --> 02:44:04,800
Speaker 12: and and and learning that like there doesn't need to

2987
02:44:04,840 --> 02:44:07,920
Speaker 12: be provocation to entice a police response. That is, that

2988
02:44:08,040 --> 02:44:09,640
Speaker 12: is not a that's not a real dynamic.

2989
02:44:10,480 --> 02:44:13,080
Speaker 13: I mean, especially UVA. Right, Like this wasn't one of

2990
02:44:13,120 --> 02:44:15,560
Speaker 13: those encampments where there had been prior clashes or real

2991
02:44:15,680 --> 02:44:19,280
Speaker 13: escalation or any sort of hardening of barricades. No, they were.

2992
02:44:19,400 --> 02:44:21,520
Speaker 13: They were lying in their tents when the cops showed up.

2993
02:44:22,560 --> 02:44:26,400
Speaker 13: Like the lesson is that nothing you can do is acceptable,

2994
02:44:26,480 --> 02:44:27,680
Speaker 13: so you might as well do what you want.

2995
02:44:28,520 --> 02:44:30,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like keep your eyes. The other thing I

2996
02:44:30,959 --> 02:44:34,040
Speaker 3: wanted to mention was like victory looks like a number

2997
02:44:34,080 --> 02:44:36,360
Speaker 3: of different things in these protests, but like you should

2998
02:44:36,400 --> 02:44:39,480
Speaker 3: focus on whatever that is. And like something I saw

2999
02:44:39,800 --> 02:44:43,200
Speaker 3: among faculty colleagues sometimes like it was just like should

3000
02:44:43,240 --> 02:44:46,560
Speaker 3: we get arrested? Like sure, suld, should we choose to

3001
02:44:46,640 --> 02:44:50,000
Speaker 3: get arrested? Like and like, no, you should not choose

3002
02:44:50,040 --> 02:44:52,960
Speaker 3: to get arrested, like you know, we always avoid it

3003
02:44:53,000 --> 02:44:56,040
Speaker 3: if you can, Yeah, avoid it. It is not an end.

3004
02:44:56,120 --> 02:44:59,240
Speaker 13: It's not a good strategic goal to get arrested on purpose. Yeah,

3005
02:45:00,160 --> 02:45:01,840
Speaker 13: I mean this is in DC where you get you know,

3006
02:45:01,920 --> 02:45:03,240
Speaker 13: a ticket and they let you go home.

3007
02:45:03,840 --> 02:45:05,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, this will fuck up as I'm lucky if

3008
02:45:05,959 --> 02:45:08,080
Speaker 3: your tenured faculty will suck up your life a lot

3009
02:45:08,160 --> 02:45:10,959
Speaker 3: less than people in other social and economic circumstances.

3010
02:45:11,040 --> 02:45:14,080
Speaker 13: Right, but even in the most privileged possible circumstance, like

3011
02:45:14,480 --> 02:45:15,440
Speaker 13: it fucking sucks.

3012
02:45:16,040 --> 02:45:18,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. You might be denied access to your medication, You

3013
02:45:18,360 --> 02:45:20,560
Speaker 3: might be confined in a cell with people who do

3014
02:45:20,680 --> 02:45:22,760
Speaker 3: not identify with the same gender as you. Right, the

3015
02:45:22,840 --> 02:45:24,480
Speaker 3: cops are going to be fucking mean to you. That's

3016
02:45:24,480 --> 02:45:26,680
Speaker 3: what they do, Like they do violence retect capital.

3017
02:45:26,720 --> 02:45:28,039
Speaker 13: That's why we have a lot of people are getting

3018
02:45:28,080 --> 02:45:30,600
Speaker 13: permanent nerve damage from being left in flexi cuffs. Like

3019
02:45:30,680 --> 02:45:33,280
Speaker 13: even if even if your charges get dropped, like you

3020
02:45:33,360 --> 02:45:34,520
Speaker 13: could suffer forever from this.

3021
02:45:35,240 --> 02:45:37,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's you have, no you know, it doesn't

3022
02:45:37,440 --> 02:45:39,720
Speaker 3: matter how good your dad's lawyer is or whatever. They're

3023
02:45:39,720 --> 02:45:41,840
Speaker 3: the cops. They're going to get away with it. But yeah,

3024
02:45:41,920 --> 02:45:44,160
Speaker 3: Like when I think about the young people I was

3025
02:45:44,400 --> 02:45:47,400
Speaker 3: talking to people, and like when I think about twenty twenty,

3026
02:45:47,480 --> 02:45:50,840
Speaker 3: where I'm talking to young people, I'm older, I'm thirty seven.

3027
02:45:51,320 --> 02:45:53,320
Speaker 3: Like I think about my own like, you know, growing

3028
02:45:53,400 --> 02:45:55,040
Speaker 3: up as a little kid. Like there was the like

3029
02:45:56,120 --> 02:45:59,440
Speaker 3: the anti sweatshow movement, which morphed into the G eight movement,

3030
02:46:00,400 --> 02:46:04,039
Speaker 3: which morphed into like xapeties to Solidarity, which morphed into

3031
02:46:04,200 --> 02:46:06,920
Speaker 3: the Free Palestine movement and moving against the British National Party,

3032
02:46:06,959 --> 02:46:09,920
Speaker 3: and we got to like step up until we were

3033
02:46:09,959 --> 02:46:13,920
Speaker 3: fighting Nazis, right because folks, young people who are protesting

3034
02:46:14,040 --> 02:46:18,000
Speaker 3: now who didn't participate in twenty twenty didn't get like

3035
02:46:18,120 --> 02:46:19,920
Speaker 3: this was just like a baptism of fire. Like the

3036
02:46:19,959 --> 02:46:21,680
Speaker 3: people in twenty twenty got to go out in twenty

3037
02:46:21,720 --> 02:46:23,959
Speaker 3: sixteen for Donald Trump, bright in twenty seventeen and wear

3038
02:46:23,959 --> 02:46:27,080
Speaker 3: the little pink hats and walk around in the pink hats,

3039
02:46:27,080 --> 02:46:29,120
Speaker 3: you know, and they got introduced to the cops and

3040
02:46:29,360 --> 02:46:30,640
Speaker 3: the fact that they are just going to fuck you

3041
02:46:30,720 --> 02:46:33,360
Speaker 3: up because they want too slowly. But these people didn't

3042
02:46:33,400 --> 02:46:35,040
Speaker 3: And I don't think we should blame them for being

3043
02:46:35,200 --> 02:46:38,320
Speaker 3: like none of us are, to be clear, but like, folks,

3044
02:46:38,440 --> 02:46:40,160
Speaker 3: I've seen it too much on the internet, like don't

3045
02:46:40,200 --> 02:46:42,840
Speaker 3: do that shit, like teach people to be stronger than

3046
02:46:42,879 --> 02:46:45,480
Speaker 3: the state. Don't shame them for not already being there.

3047
02:46:46,040 --> 02:46:48,560
Speaker 6: That's something that happened, like I literally watched this like

3048
02:46:49,600 --> 02:46:54,720
Speaker 6: happen at the Chicago cant was people like getting ready

3049
02:46:55,080 --> 02:46:58,040
Speaker 6: to have to fight off like these rap ros and

3050
02:46:59,640 --> 02:47:02,040
Speaker 6: you know, like that experience, and you know, and this

3051
02:47:02,160 --> 02:47:04,160
Speaker 6: is something I think is interesting about these protests. Two

3052
02:47:04,320 --> 02:47:08,279
Speaker 6: was like from UCLA, Like UCLA was like a pretty

3053
02:47:08,360 --> 02:47:10,560
Speaker 6: explicit attempt to try to use these like right wing

3054
02:47:10,760 --> 02:47:14,760
Speaker 6: like paramilitary people to knock out an encampment, and they

3055
02:47:14,800 --> 02:47:17,720
Speaker 6: couldn't do it. Like, they hurt a lot of people, right,

3056
02:47:17,800 --> 02:47:19,720
Speaker 6: like two hundred people I think went to the hospital

3057
02:47:19,800 --> 02:47:21,760
Speaker 6: or at least treated by medics after it. Right, they

3058
02:47:21,840 --> 02:47:24,440
Speaker 6: hurt a lot of people. It was really scary, but

3059
02:47:24,520 --> 02:47:26,320
Speaker 6: they couldn't break they couldn't break the barricades. And that

3060
02:47:26,360 --> 02:47:28,880
Speaker 6: happened at Chicago too. It was like they couldn't like

3061
02:47:29,480 --> 02:47:33,000
Speaker 6: in the Chicago like those those like they're they're on.

3062
02:47:33,560 --> 02:47:35,600
Speaker 6: But at nine o'clock in the morning on the day

3063
02:47:35,640 --> 02:47:37,600
Speaker 6: of that encampment, there were no fucking barricades. It was

3064
02:47:37,680 --> 02:47:39,760
Speaker 6: just a bunch of tents at a lawn, right, and

3065
02:47:40,080 --> 02:47:42,240
Speaker 6: in like three hours they set up a thing that

3066
02:47:42,800 --> 02:47:45,199
Speaker 6: you know, still I mean they weren't still weren't really barricades,

3067
02:47:45,480 --> 02:47:49,960
Speaker 6: but like you got to watch these kids, and you know,

3068
02:47:50,080 --> 02:47:54,560
Speaker 6: the people who were there, like you know, like realize

3069
02:47:54,879 --> 02:47:57,920
Speaker 6: that a group of them can stand and fight and

3070
02:47:58,040 --> 02:47:59,879
Speaker 6: hold these people. And they and they did it. They

3071
02:48:00,040 --> 02:48:02,360
Speaker 6: fucking stood there, they stood their ground, they held them,

3072
02:48:02,400 --> 02:48:03,840
Speaker 6: they fought, and at the end of the day, the

3073
02:48:03,920 --> 02:48:08,240
Speaker 6: fucking trapros ran away and it wasn't really intel. And

3074
02:48:08,280 --> 02:48:10,160
Speaker 6: then this is I think it's been a really interesting

3075
02:48:10,200 --> 02:48:13,160
Speaker 6: element of this is that like these these per military

3076
02:48:13,160 --> 02:48:18,440
Speaker 6: groups have been just staggeringly unable to actually like beat

3077
02:48:18,560 --> 02:48:21,560
Speaker 6: a bunch of protesters like in you know, in in

3078
02:48:21,800 --> 02:48:23,520
Speaker 6: the sort of military sense of like who holds the

3079
02:48:23,600 --> 02:48:25,320
Speaker 6: field at the end of the fight. They can't do it,

3080
02:48:25,720 --> 02:48:27,160
Speaker 6: and only the cops have been able to.

3081
02:48:27,440 --> 02:48:30,360
Speaker 12: And the other thing about that is, like you had

3082
02:48:30,520 --> 02:48:34,879
Speaker 12: you have a more legitimate way to fight off these

3083
02:48:35,200 --> 02:48:38,640
Speaker 12: like non state actions, Yeah, yeah, right, whenever you there

3084
02:48:38,720 --> 02:48:41,080
Speaker 12: is because of the nature of the state's monopoly on

3085
02:48:41,120 --> 02:48:43,680
Speaker 12: the legitimate violence, fighting off the police can be a

3086
02:48:43,760 --> 02:48:48,840
Speaker 12: lot more tricky than fighting off these like frat boy groups. Yeah,

3087
02:48:48,920 --> 02:48:51,920
Speaker 12: like that that is that is a very different dynamic.

3088
02:48:52,600 --> 02:48:54,560
Speaker 6: That was a process that like unfolded there. It was

3089
02:48:54,560 --> 02:48:55,760
Speaker 6: like a lot of people who were like, yeah, we

3090
02:48:55,800 --> 02:48:58,600
Speaker 6: don't want to escalate, and it was like, well, okay,

3091
02:48:58,760 --> 02:49:00,879
Speaker 6: so like several hundred people are going to show up.

3092
02:49:00,920 --> 02:49:03,400
Speaker 6: We also happened to us the UCLA like it has

3093
02:49:03,560 --> 02:49:06,760
Speaker 6: to right, Like you know, I mean like like you

3094
02:49:06,920 --> 02:49:09,039
Speaker 6: can't just keep doing your sort of like we're not.

3095
02:49:09,040 --> 02:49:10,440
Speaker 3: Going to engage your counter protesters thing.

3096
02:49:10,480 --> 02:49:12,040
Speaker 6: Where's two hundred of these people who are going to

3097
02:49:12,080 --> 02:49:12,880
Speaker 6: try to beat the shit out of you?

3098
02:49:13,480 --> 02:49:15,400
Speaker 13: Right, there's I mean, there's choosing not to engage with

3099
02:49:15,480 --> 02:49:18,000
Speaker 13: someone who just wants attention, and then there is self defense.

3100
02:49:18,040 --> 02:49:20,640
Speaker 13: I think those are two different things. Yeah, definitely some

3101
02:49:21,000 --> 02:49:22,680
Speaker 13: like you don't you know, you don't give someone their

3102
02:49:22,760 --> 02:49:24,879
Speaker 13: viral video that they can put on YouTube or whatever.

3103
02:49:24,959 --> 02:49:26,400
Speaker 13: But if someone's going to beat you with a stick.

3104
02:49:27,560 --> 02:49:29,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, And it's like like I'm not saying either them

3105
02:49:29,040 --> 02:49:30,880
Speaker 6: are like right or wrong. It's just like, yeah, like

3106
02:49:30,959 --> 02:49:34,440
Speaker 6: you can't you can't use the same tactics. And being

3107
02:49:34,680 --> 02:49:38,280
Speaker 6: forced to defend yourself like had this real sort of

3108
02:49:38,600 --> 02:49:42,120
Speaker 6: like impact on people, and like I don't know, it's

3109
02:49:42,160 --> 02:49:44,440
Speaker 6: like like I gotta see people just like understanding what

3110
02:49:44,600 --> 02:49:47,800
Speaker 6: you can do with the physical mass of a group

3111
02:49:47,840 --> 02:49:50,680
Speaker 6: of people, and I don't know it was it was

3112
02:49:51,040 --> 02:49:52,920
Speaker 6: like it was it was a really emotional experience for

3113
02:49:53,040 --> 02:49:54,800
Speaker 6: like a lot of the people there, and it was

3114
02:49:54,840 --> 02:49:55,320
Speaker 6: really cool.

3115
02:49:55,920 --> 02:49:58,040
Speaker 12: So yeah, I think we it would be wrong just

3116
02:49:58,160 --> 02:50:04,280
Speaker 12: to like criticize these these students specifically for dropping the

3117
02:50:04,320 --> 02:50:06,320
Speaker 12: ball in various ways. I think the thing that we

3118
02:50:06,440 --> 02:50:09,320
Speaker 12: can completely criticize and point you as a as a

3119
02:50:09,520 --> 02:50:14,000
Speaker 12: as a massive failure is everyone who has not been participating,

3120
02:50:14,600 --> 02:50:17,080
Speaker 12: how they have been viewing what's going on, And this

3121
02:50:17,160 --> 02:50:18,440
Speaker 12: is this is this will be the last thing I

3122
02:50:18,520 --> 02:50:21,000
Speaker 12: talk about, especially even even it's on like the media

3123
02:50:21,080 --> 02:50:23,320
Speaker 12: side and in this general discussion, like there's been such

3124
02:50:23,360 --> 02:50:29,039
Speaker 12: a such a singular focus on the campus encampment like itself,

3125
02:50:29,720 --> 02:50:32,320
Speaker 12: instead of like why the protests are happening in the

3126
02:50:32,440 --> 02:50:35,520
Speaker 12: first place, what's going on in Gaza just instead just

3127
02:50:35,640 --> 02:50:40,040
Speaker 12: focusing on like, yeah, the actual the actual thing on campus,

3128
02:50:40,120 --> 02:50:42,480
Speaker 12: but but but not caring about why these protests are

3129
02:50:42,480 --> 02:50:48,160
Speaker 12: even happening, wilfully ignoring why it's happening, framing all literally

3130
02:50:48,320 --> 02:50:51,640
Speaker 12: all of the campus protests as inherently anti semitic, as

3131
02:50:51,680 --> 02:50:55,480
Speaker 12: if that is the main driver, and ignoring ignoring the

3132
02:50:55,840 --> 02:50:59,400
Speaker 12: many instances for people who have expressed anti Semitic things

3133
02:50:59,480 --> 02:51:02,160
Speaker 12: have been being like removed and pushed out of campus,

3134
02:51:02,480 --> 02:51:05,400
Speaker 12: which has happened in many places. But it's it's just

3135
02:51:05,560 --> 02:51:09,280
Speaker 12: it's just so lazy to totally like reject the reasoning

3136
02:51:09,360 --> 02:51:13,240
Speaker 12: for why these protests are happening, the framing of trespassing

3137
02:51:13,400 --> 02:51:16,560
Speaker 12: as a form of violence, call calling these encampments violent

3138
02:51:17,480 --> 02:51:20,440
Speaker 12: as if as if being on campus is violent, and

3139
02:51:20,720 --> 02:51:23,920
Speaker 12: meanwhile never once mentioning the actual violence on display, which

3140
02:51:23,920 --> 02:51:26,480
Speaker 12: is almost solely at the hands of police and these

3141
02:51:26,520 --> 02:51:29,760
Speaker 12: other far right groups. Friend of the Pod Cody Johnston

3142
02:51:29,840 --> 02:51:32,840
Speaker 12: had a had a very very good tweet quote, these

3143
02:51:32,920 --> 02:51:35,800
Speaker 12: people who I despise and never agree with, should protest

3144
02:51:35,879 --> 02:51:38,160
Speaker 12: the way I prefer unquote.

3145
02:51:38,840 --> 02:51:41,879
Speaker 13: Don't don't debate tactics with people who don't share your goals.

3146
02:51:42,879 --> 02:51:43,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and.

3147
02:51:44,160 --> 02:51:48,040
Speaker 12: Again like these people who who who have like an

3148
02:51:48,080 --> 02:51:51,039
Speaker 12: ideological opposition to every single thing that these protest are

3149
02:51:51,080 --> 02:51:52,879
Speaker 12: staying for people.

3150
02:51:52,680 --> 02:51:57,240
Speaker 3: Doing this in the actual Bush administration just a wild

3151
02:51:57,360 --> 02:51:59,920
Speaker 3: fucking mental gymnastics to be like, it is a leag

3152
02:52:00,080 --> 02:52:02,040
Speaker 3: go for you to have your attempts here that is trespassed,

3153
02:52:02,040 --> 02:52:05,520
Speaker 3: Therefore we can violently displace you. Also, I stand with Israel,

3154
02:52:05,920 --> 02:52:06,800
Speaker 3: like exactly.

3155
02:52:07,959 --> 02:52:10,560
Speaker 13: Your head remind people of too is you know, you know,

3156
02:52:10,640 --> 02:52:14,119
Speaker 13: the saying like, well, technically they broke the rules. Okay, Well, technically,

3157
02:52:14,200 --> 02:52:16,360
Speaker 13: if you're going twenty over the speed limit, the cop

3158
02:52:16,440 --> 02:52:19,440
Speaker 13: can book you into jail. Would it be a bizarre

3159
02:52:19,600 --> 02:52:21,880
Speaker 13: escalation of force for him to do that? Do they

3160
02:52:21,959 --> 02:52:22,600
Speaker 13: normally do it?

3161
02:52:22,920 --> 02:52:23,040
Speaker 2: Now?

3162
02:52:23,120 --> 02:52:25,560
Speaker 13: They don't? Right, So, just because just because the police

3163
02:52:26,040 --> 02:52:29,280
Speaker 13: can intervene in certain ways doesn't mean it makes sense

3164
02:52:29,320 --> 02:52:29,760
Speaker 13: for them.

3165
02:52:29,640 --> 02:52:30,120
Speaker 9: To do so.

3166
02:52:30,600 --> 02:52:34,039
Speaker 12: Technically, you're not supposed to bomb forty thousand civilians, right

3167
02:52:34,840 --> 02:52:36,600
Speaker 12: So I think that's that's really.

3168
02:52:36,480 --> 02:52:39,720
Speaker 6: Weapons says are illegal the under under the Lahi Act,

3169
02:52:39,760 --> 02:52:40,720
Speaker 6: And it doesn't matter.

3170
02:52:40,640 --> 02:52:44,520
Speaker 13: For shit because the rules, you know, the police are

3171
02:52:44,680 --> 02:52:46,480
Speaker 13: only only powerful to punish you.

3172
02:52:47,240 --> 02:52:50,240
Speaker 12: The fact that there's more moral outrage across the country

3173
02:52:50,879 --> 02:52:55,119
Speaker 12: or students protesting a genocide than there is for forty

3174
02:52:55,200 --> 02:52:59,040
Speaker 12: thousand civilians being murdered is just looking at a deep

3175
02:52:59,120 --> 02:53:01,680
Speaker 12: hole at the at the conscience of this country.

3176
02:53:02,520 --> 02:53:02,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

3177
02:53:02,720 --> 02:53:03,680
Speaker 3: Also, the thing I.

3178
02:53:03,720 --> 02:53:04,960
Speaker 6: Will say about that is if you look at the

3179
02:53:05,000 --> 02:53:08,560
Speaker 6: polling numbers on this, like, yeah, there's like like forty

3180
02:53:08,720 --> 02:53:12,720
Speaker 6: seven ish percent support for like banning like protesters on campus. However,

3181
02:53:13,000 --> 02:53:15,840
Speaker 6: when you actually look at the numbers, like especially if

3182
02:53:15,879 --> 02:53:17,240
Speaker 6: you look at the numbers of my cultures, you look

3183
02:53:17,240 --> 02:53:20,560
Speaker 6: at the numbers of people in general who now like

3184
02:53:20,800 --> 02:53:24,520
Speaker 6: who now support like ceasing like ceasing sending arms to Israel.

3185
02:53:24,560 --> 02:53:27,040
Speaker 6: It's been interesting, so like they have been working totally.

3186
02:53:27,120 --> 02:53:29,440
Speaker 12: It's just that the people who control this country is

3187
02:53:29,520 --> 02:53:32,600
Speaker 12: a different demographic than all the young people who are

3188
02:53:32,640 --> 02:53:34,760
Speaker 12: potesting on campus, right, which is what we are looking at.

3189
02:53:34,800 --> 02:53:37,600
Speaker 12: And I think it's also important to remind her that

3190
02:53:37,640 --> 02:53:41,840
Speaker 12: almost every single campus protest historically has been completely vindicated

3191
02:53:42,080 --> 02:53:44,920
Speaker 12: over time because they're obviously correct.

3192
02:53:45,360 --> 02:53:47,879
Speaker 8: And if you deny that, who are you fooling?

3193
02:53:47,959 --> 02:53:48,359
Speaker 3: Anyway?

3194
02:53:48,760 --> 02:53:50,800
Speaker 12: I think that this episode's already pretty long, but I

3195
02:53:51,080 --> 02:53:54,080
Speaker 12: was happy to hear a collection of our four different

3196
02:53:54,120 --> 02:53:55,600
Speaker 12: accounts from four different places.

3197
02:53:56,160 --> 02:53:57,680
Speaker 13: Oh, I do want to say really quick before we

3198
02:53:57,760 --> 02:53:59,760
Speaker 13: wrap this up. To everyone who says these students are

3199
02:53:59,800 --> 02:54:02,760
Speaker 13: too young to know what they are protesting, they couldn't

3200
02:54:02,760 --> 02:54:06,960
Speaker 13: possibly understand what they are talking about. Fred Hampton was

3201
02:54:07,000 --> 02:54:07,440
Speaker 13: twenty one.

3202
02:54:08,640 --> 02:54:13,040
Speaker 12: People forget how how young MLK was when he started

3203
02:54:13,080 --> 02:54:13,879
Speaker 12: doing Yeah.

3204
02:54:13,879 --> 02:54:16,600
Speaker 3: And they're young enough for fucking Israel to kill them, right.

3205
02:54:17,680 --> 02:54:20,920
Speaker 3: There are no universities in guars there anymore. It's just

3206
02:54:21,040 --> 02:54:23,360
Speaker 3: it's ridiculous. They're also young enough to join the idea

3207
02:54:23,440 --> 02:54:25,000
Speaker 3: for any other military and go and kill people. It's

3208
02:54:25,000 --> 02:54:27,320
Speaker 3: a ridiculous argument. Like, you don't have to go there

3209
02:54:27,360 --> 02:54:30,080
Speaker 3: and talk to these students. They know exactly what they're protesting.

3210
02:54:30,160 --> 02:54:31,800
Speaker 3: They know exactly what they're talking about.

3211
02:54:31,800 --> 02:54:34,240
Speaker 13: A lot of them are actually fairly well versed on

3212
02:54:34,280 --> 02:54:37,800
Speaker 13: the minutia of what divestment means and what that looks like,

3213
02:54:37,879 --> 02:54:40,400
Speaker 13: and what the fiduciary duties are. Like, they're not stupid.

3214
02:54:40,720 --> 02:54:42,080
Speaker 13: They know what they're talking about.

3215
02:54:42,160 --> 02:54:45,840
Speaker 8: All these dumb college educated youngsters.

3216
02:54:45,520 --> 02:54:48,320
Speaker 13: All these lady it's at Columbia anyway.

3217
02:54:48,440 --> 02:54:51,360
Speaker 3: This fucking nerds you Chicago. It's like, we don't talk

3218
02:54:51,360 --> 02:54:53,280
Speaker 3: about Palestine enough in class. Is like I teach a

3219
02:54:53,320 --> 02:54:55,240
Speaker 3: lot of world history classes. It's certainly not on the

3220
02:54:55,320 --> 02:54:57,440
Speaker 3: little boxes you have to take. And some people came

3221
02:54:57,480 --> 02:54:59,520
Speaker 3: to the encampments to learn, and that's fucking great too.

3222
02:55:00,200 --> 02:55:02,600
Speaker 3: And some people taught people and that's great too, Like

3223
02:55:03,440 --> 02:55:05,960
Speaker 3: it's a place where a lot of learning happened and

3224
02:55:06,000 --> 02:55:09,080
Speaker 3: people became more informed over time. You don't need to

3225
02:55:09,200 --> 02:55:12,400
Speaker 3: have a PhD or master's in an area to understand

3226
02:55:12,400 --> 02:55:14,880
Speaker 3: that bombing children is bad and wanted to stop. We

3227
02:55:15,000 --> 02:55:17,600
Speaker 3: had a world war about this, like genocides are bad.

3228
02:55:17,959 --> 02:55:20,440
Speaker 3: So this will be a topic we continue to cover

3229
02:55:20,560 --> 02:55:23,080
Speaker 3: on the show over the course. At summer, we'll have

3230
02:55:23,520 --> 02:55:25,760
Speaker 3: I'm planning a deep dive about what happened at Emory.

3231
02:55:26,040 --> 02:55:28,240
Speaker 3: Margaret has an upcoming episode about how people who were

3232
02:55:28,280 --> 02:55:30,840
Speaker 3: engaged in the campus protests can stay involved over the summer,

3233
02:55:31,280 --> 02:55:33,960
Speaker 3: and of course we will continue to talk about what's

3234
02:55:34,000 --> 02:55:36,880
Speaker 3: been happening in Gaza. Thanks for listening, solid Air. To

3235
02:55:36,879 --> 02:55:37,600
Speaker 3: everyone who's out.

3236
02:55:37,520 --> 02:55:39,080
Speaker 13: There, Flush your eyes with water.

3237
02:55:39,320 --> 02:55:43,279
Speaker 8: Flush your eyes with water again, learned.

3238
02:55:57,640 --> 02:56:00,160
Speaker 13: Hello, and welcome back to it could happen here. I

3239
02:56:00,280 --> 02:56:03,200
Speaker 13: am once again your occasional host, Molly Conger joining me

3240
02:56:03,280 --> 02:56:06,360
Speaker 13: today for a very special episode. Are my friends and yours,

3241
02:56:06,720 --> 02:56:11,199
Speaker 13: Scharen and Mia so Sharinnia. We're here today to honor

3242
02:56:11,320 --> 02:56:14,760
Speaker 13: and reflect upon a very somber and important holiday. It

3243
02:56:14,920 --> 02:56:17,800
Speaker 13: is May fifteenth as we are recording this today, and

3244
02:56:17,840 --> 02:56:20,320
Speaker 13: today is actually recognized the world over as Knackba Day,

3245
02:56:20,400 --> 02:56:22,400
Speaker 13: a day to remember the first Knakba, the founding of

3246
02:56:22,440 --> 02:56:24,280
Speaker 13: the state of Israel and the force displacement of the

3247
02:56:24,320 --> 02:56:27,680
Speaker 13: Palestinian people. And this year, as a new Nakba continues,

3248
02:56:27,720 --> 02:56:30,240
Speaker 13: as the genocide is being committed against the Palestinian people,

3249
02:56:30,640 --> 02:56:33,080
Speaker 13: it's more important than ever to remember that these atrocities

3250
02:56:33,160 --> 02:56:38,240
Speaker 13: did not start last year. But that isn't the memorial

3251
02:56:38,320 --> 02:56:41,000
Speaker 13: day I invited you here to talk about. Here in

3252
02:56:41,040 --> 02:56:43,400
Speaker 13: the United States, the holiday officially on the books today

3253
02:56:43,560 --> 02:56:48,119
Speaker 13: is not Knackba Day. It is National Peace Officers Memorial Day.

3254
02:56:49,120 --> 02:56:52,280
Speaker 13: In nineteen sixty two, President Kennedy signed a proclamation establishing

3255
02:56:52,360 --> 02:56:55,640
Speaker 13: May fifteenth as National Peace Officers Memorial Day and the

3256
02:56:55,680 --> 02:56:58,640
Speaker 13: week it falls within as National Police Week. It's an

3257
02:56:58,800 --> 02:57:01,879
Speaker 13: entire week to honor commemorate the brave boys in blue

3258
02:57:01,879 --> 02:57:04,400
Speaker 13: who've lost their lives in the line of duty. And

3259
02:57:04,480 --> 02:57:05,840
Speaker 13: I can't think of a better way to spend this

3260
02:57:05,920 --> 02:57:08,240
Speaker 13: afternoon with both of you than to talk about how

3261
02:57:08,280 --> 02:57:10,920
Speaker 13: this holiday is celebrated and to share some of these

3262
02:57:10,959 --> 02:57:15,800
Speaker 13: incredible stories of courage and sacrifice. So one of the

3263
02:57:15,840 --> 02:57:19,120
Speaker 13: most frequently cited sources during Police Week and year round

3264
02:57:19,160 --> 02:57:21,560
Speaker 13: when you're talking about the mortality rate of police officers

3265
02:57:21,720 --> 02:57:25,640
Speaker 13: is a website called the Officer Down Memorial Page. Highly

3266
02:57:25,760 --> 02:57:28,440
Speaker 13: encourage you to visit it, make an account browse the pages.

3267
02:57:29,440 --> 02:57:31,800
Speaker 13: The website is run by a nonprofit organization by the

3268
02:57:31,840 --> 02:57:34,760
Speaker 13: same name and has had tax exempt status since two thousand.

3269
02:57:35,520 --> 02:57:38,039
Speaker 13: According to their IRS Form nine nineties, the tax form

3270
02:57:38,120 --> 02:57:41,160
Speaker 13: that tax exempt nonprofits have to file annually, they're pulling

3271
02:57:41,200 --> 02:57:43,680
Speaker 13: in around seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year,

3272
02:57:44,120 --> 02:57:49,880
Speaker 13: a third of which goes directly toward executive compensation and

3273
02:57:50,080 --> 02:57:52,800
Speaker 13: why why shouldn't someone make a quarter of a million

3274
02:57:52,840 --> 02:57:56,520
Speaker 13: dollars annually to do such important work? Public records show

3275
02:57:56,560 --> 02:57:59,960
Speaker 13: the website's founder, Chris Cosgriff, is a police officer himself

3276
02:58:00,240 --> 02:58:04,240
Speaker 13: in Fairfax County, Virginia. Available salary data from twenty eighteen

3277
02:58:04,360 --> 02:58:06,840
Speaker 13: shows him making a policeman salary of about sixty nine

3278
02:58:06,879 --> 02:58:10,400
Speaker 13: thousand dollars. According to his LinkedIn page, Cosgriff still works

3279
02:58:10,400 --> 02:58:13,640
Speaker 13: for the Fairfax County Police Department as a recruiting supervisor

3280
02:58:14,920 --> 02:58:17,320
Speaker 13: the officer down memorial page. Tax documents show he paid

3281
02:58:17,400 --> 02:58:20,040
Speaker 13: himself a paltry twenty four thousand, five hundred dollars in

3282
02:58:20,120 --> 02:58:22,920
Speaker 13: twenty twenty three as the executive director of the nonprofit,

3283
02:58:23,480 --> 02:58:26,520
Speaker 13: though they list key employee compensation at an expense of

3284
02:58:26,600 --> 02:58:29,120
Speaker 13: two hundred and fifty thousand dollars that year, with no

3285
02:58:29,240 --> 02:58:31,480
Speaker 13: indication of who is being paid that remaining two hundred

3286
02:58:31,480 --> 02:58:34,000
Speaker 13: and twenty five thousand dollars or what that person's position is.

3287
02:58:34,959 --> 02:58:37,680
Speaker 13: When the organization received a thirty thousand dollars PPP loan

3288
02:58:37,760 --> 02:58:40,400
Speaker 13: in twenty twenty, they indicated on their loan documents that

3289
02:58:40,400 --> 02:58:44,320
Speaker 13: there were five employees at the organization. I'm not an accountant,

3290
02:58:44,440 --> 02:58:47,160
Speaker 13: so I won't hazard any kind of guesses here, but

3291
02:58:47,240 --> 02:58:49,280
Speaker 13: I am having trouble making sense of that twenty twenty

3292
02:58:49,400 --> 02:58:52,640
Speaker 13: four nine ninety, which lists five company officers by name

3293
02:58:53,040 --> 02:58:55,560
Speaker 13: and only cosgriff is drawing a salary, he paid himself

3294
02:58:55,600 --> 02:58:58,440
Speaker 13: fifty thousand dollars that year. So that same document from

3295
02:58:58,440 --> 02:59:00,920
Speaker 13: twenty twenty shows that the organization and had expenses of

3296
02:59:01,000 --> 02:59:05,200
Speaker 13: two hundred thousand dollars for compensation of officers, but it

3297
02:59:05,280 --> 02:59:07,600
Speaker 13: doesn't say where that remaining one hundred and fifty thousand

3298
02:59:07,640 --> 02:59:08,200
Speaker 13: dollars went.

3299
02:59:09,080 --> 02:59:11,800
Speaker 6: Hmmm, I worried.

3300
02:59:13,360 --> 02:59:16,080
Speaker 13: Maybe they have a secret employee that they're not counting.

3301
02:59:17,400 --> 02:59:19,800
Speaker 3: His son, his wife, his other wife.

3302
02:59:21,640 --> 02:59:24,400
Speaker 13: The website indicates that donations to the nonprofit go towards

3303
02:59:24,480 --> 02:59:28,000
Speaker 13: maintaining the website, making posts on their Facebook, maintaining the

3304
02:59:28,040 --> 02:59:31,720
Speaker 13: site's companion mobile app, and historic research, claiming that their staff,

3305
02:59:31,800 --> 02:59:35,280
Speaker 13: again those five people, have uncovered records of over two

3306
02:59:35,400 --> 02:59:38,640
Speaker 13: thousand fallen officers that otherwise would have been forgotten to time.

3307
02:59:39,640 --> 02:59:41,920
Speaker 13: The site has memorial pages for officers who died as

3308
02:59:41,959 --> 02:59:44,520
Speaker 13: far back as seventeen seventy six, so it's as old

3309
02:59:44,520 --> 02:59:50,280
Speaker 13: as America. That's not real, it's not We didn't actually

3310
02:59:50,320 --> 02:59:53,960
Speaker 13: really have what is considered modern policing back then, so

3311
02:59:54,000 --> 02:59:56,360
Speaker 13: they're really kind of stretching definitions, are.

3312
02:59:56,320 --> 02:59:59,880
Speaker 14: They including like people that went after slaves, you know?

3313
03:00:00,240 --> 03:00:07,400
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, tax collectors, yes, olive stretching.

3314
03:00:07,000 --> 03:00:07,640
Speaker 3: Yes a lot.

3315
03:00:07,879 --> 03:00:09,720
Speaker 14: I know you want to go that far back, but

3316
03:00:10,160 --> 03:00:10,680
Speaker 14: I mean.

3317
03:00:10,959 --> 03:00:11,240
Speaker 9: Do you.

3318
03:00:12,560 --> 03:00:16,400
Speaker 13: Donations also help fund their No Parole for cop Killers program,

3319
03:00:16,520 --> 03:00:19,240
Speaker 13: which tracks the cases of the people they call convicted

3320
03:00:19,360 --> 03:00:22,760
Speaker 13: cop killers and flood local parole boards with letters advocating

3321
03:00:22,800 --> 03:00:25,640
Speaker 13: against release. The donation page claims to have sent out

3322
03:00:25,680 --> 03:00:28,800
Speaker 13: over ten thousand such letters in the last six months alone.

3323
03:00:29,760 --> 03:00:31,879
Speaker 13: They also have a merch page where you can buy

3324
03:00:31,959 --> 03:00:35,200
Speaker 13: a lovely trio of thin blue line Christmas ornaments in

3325
03:00:35,280 --> 03:00:39,199
Speaker 13: a gift box for the low reasonable price of sixty dollars.

3326
03:00:39,800 --> 03:00:40,160
Speaker 3: Jesus.

3327
03:00:41,400 --> 03:00:42,959
Speaker 14: Kind of all the things I thought you were going

3328
03:00:43,040 --> 03:00:44,360
Speaker 14: to say. I did not think you were going to

3329
03:00:44,360 --> 03:00:45,400
Speaker 14: say Christmas ornaments.

3330
03:00:45,800 --> 03:00:49,600
Speaker 13: Oh yeah, beautiful, beautiful memorial ornaments. You can get them customized.

3331
03:00:50,080 --> 03:00:50,320
Speaker 6: Wow.

3332
03:00:52,200 --> 03:00:56,040
Speaker 13: The site lists information about American law enforcement officers, prison employees,

3333
03:00:56,240 --> 03:00:58,600
Speaker 13: and police dogs who have lost their lives in the

3334
03:00:58,680 --> 03:01:02,640
Speaker 13: line of duty. Kind of see. While the website is

3335
03:01:02,760 --> 03:01:05,360
Speaker 13: the source cited in every local news puff piece when

3336
03:01:05,360 --> 03:01:08,040
Speaker 13: May fifteenth rolls around every year, putting their version of

3337
03:01:08,040 --> 03:01:11,400
Speaker 13: the numbers in the headlines, the organization's stats don't match

3338
03:01:11,480 --> 03:01:14,040
Speaker 13: those in the FBI's annual report on the subject, an

3339
03:01:14,080 --> 03:01:17,480
Speaker 13: official annual report called the Law Enforcement Officers Killed and

3340
03:01:17,560 --> 03:01:21,360
Speaker 13: Assaulted or LEOCA Report. The data used by the FBI

3341
03:01:21,520 --> 03:01:23,880
Speaker 13: is collected as part of the uniform Crime Reporting System,

3342
03:01:24,520 --> 03:01:26,160
Speaker 13: and if you take just a minute to look at

3343
03:01:26,200 --> 03:01:28,920
Speaker 13: the Officer down Memorial Page's annual data, the reason for

3344
03:01:29,000 --> 03:01:32,760
Speaker 13: this mismatch is immediately clear. They're padding their numbers by

3345
03:01:32,800 --> 03:01:35,680
Speaker 13: including deaths by natural causes on duty, deaths due to

3346
03:01:35,720 --> 03:01:38,760
Speaker 13: accidents or incidents unrelated to the officer's duties, and they're

3347
03:01:38,760 --> 03:01:42,240
Speaker 13: including law enforcement adjacent personnel that the FBI does not

3348
03:01:42,480 --> 03:01:46,120
Speaker 13: consider to be law enforcement deaths in their reporting. The

3349
03:01:46,240 --> 03:01:50,040
Speaker 13: FBI's LEOCA report has really clear criteria for inclusion. To

3350
03:01:50,120 --> 03:01:52,400
Speaker 13: be considered a law enforcement line of duty death, the

3351
03:01:52,520 --> 03:01:55,320
Speaker 13: deceased must have been a duly sworn law enforcement officer

3352
03:01:55,400 --> 03:01:57,680
Speaker 13: acting in their official capacity at the time of their death.

3353
03:01:58,200 --> 03:01:59,880
Speaker 13: So they have to be a real cop, somebody who

3354
03:01:59,879 --> 03:02:01,600
Speaker 13: can carries a badge and a gun and has full

3355
03:02:01,680 --> 03:02:05,960
Speaker 13: arrest powers. And the FBI specifically excludes death by natural

3356
03:02:06,040 --> 03:02:09,160
Speaker 13: causes like heart attacks or COVID deesths that occurred on duty,

3357
03:02:09,280 --> 03:02:12,640
Speaker 13: but quote attributed to their own personal situation, such as

3358
03:02:12,760 --> 03:02:18,120
Speaker 13: domestic violence, neighbor conflict, et cetera, which like that they

3359
03:02:18,200 --> 03:02:21,320
Speaker 13: have to list that by name. If you died doing

3360
03:02:21,360 --> 03:02:24,760
Speaker 13: a domestic violence in uniform, that doesn't count. How often

3361
03:02:24,840 --> 03:02:25,440
Speaker 13: is that happening?

3362
03:02:25,920 --> 03:02:28,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I hope people who killed them are getting.

3363
03:02:28,040 --> 03:02:32,360
Speaker 13: Parole, Like good God, right, Like if your wife kills

3364
03:02:32,400 --> 03:02:34,240
Speaker 13: you while you're beating her but you're on the clock,

3365
03:02:34,480 --> 03:02:38,160
Speaker 13: the FBI says, no dice. They also specifically note that

3366
03:02:38,160 --> 03:02:41,880
Speaker 13: they do not include corrections officers, Bureau of Prisons officers,

3367
03:02:42,080 --> 03:02:45,400
Speaker 13: bailiff's judges, probation and parole officers, or US attorneys and

3368
03:02:45,400 --> 03:02:48,879
Speaker 13: assistant US attorneys. So just cops, not the people who

3369
03:02:48,920 --> 03:02:51,280
Speaker 13: sort of work in the industry around them but are

3370
03:02:51,360 --> 03:02:51,879
Speaker 13: not cops.

3371
03:02:52,480 --> 03:02:55,760
Speaker 14: Not people that basically are cops, like actual cops, you know,

3372
03:02:55,840 --> 03:02:56,600
Speaker 14: in actual cops.

3373
03:02:56,680 --> 03:03:00,280
Speaker 13: Yeah, and the FAA is really aware clearly that the

3374
03:03:00,360 --> 03:03:03,160
Speaker 13: numbers on the ODMP get cited more often than their own,

3375
03:03:03,640 --> 03:03:07,240
Speaker 13: Because the FBI's Crime Data Explorer page offers this weasly

3376
03:03:07,360 --> 03:03:11,000
Speaker 13: little caveat quote. The FBI's LEOCA program is one of

3377
03:03:11,040 --> 03:03:13,440
Speaker 13: a number of entities that report information concerning line of

3378
03:03:13,480 --> 03:03:15,560
Speaker 13: duty deaths and or assaults of law enforcement officers in

3379
03:03:15,560 --> 03:03:18,960
Speaker 13: the United States. Each organization has its own purpose and

3380
03:03:19,040 --> 03:03:21,440
Speaker 13: may use different methods to collect and report information, or

3381
03:03:21,480 --> 03:03:25,440
Speaker 13: focus on somewhat different aspects of these important topics. Therefore,

3382
03:03:25,520 --> 03:03:27,640
Speaker 13: care should be taken not to compare LEOCA data to

3383
03:03:27,720 --> 03:03:31,080
Speaker 13: data provided by other entities, such as the Officer Down

3384
03:03:31,280 --> 03:03:35,640
Speaker 13: Memorial page. So they're specifically saying, we know these numbers

3385
03:03:35,680 --> 03:03:37,520
Speaker 13: don't match. We know these numbers don't match because a

3386
03:03:37,560 --> 03:03:39,560
Speaker 13: few years ago we gave them a few hundred thousand

3387
03:03:39,600 --> 03:03:42,000
Speaker 13: dollars in grant money to make numbers that are fake.

3388
03:03:42,760 --> 03:03:43,040
Speaker 2: Wow.

3389
03:03:43,959 --> 03:03:45,199
Speaker 3: Incredible, Wow.

3390
03:03:46,400 --> 03:03:48,640
Speaker 13: So the odmp is patting out their numbers with off

3391
03:03:48,720 --> 03:03:52,279
Speaker 13: duty accidents, prison guards, parking lot heart attacks, and COVID deaths.

3392
03:03:52,800 --> 03:03:57,279
Speaker 13: The database includes nearly nine hundred COVID deaths, causing massive

3393
03:03:57,320 --> 03:03:59,720
Speaker 13: statistical anomalies. In their twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, and

3394
03:03:59,760 --> 03:04:02,920
Speaker 13: twenty two data, they include officers who died of natural

3395
03:04:03,000 --> 03:04:06,760
Speaker 13: causes years after sustaining minor on the job injuries, which,

3396
03:04:07,120 --> 03:04:09,720
Speaker 13: you know, if you're involved in a civil lawsuit after

3397
03:04:09,800 --> 03:04:11,640
Speaker 13: the death of a loved one, you could maybe argue

3398
03:04:11,680 --> 03:04:14,120
Speaker 13: that this was sort of a you know, a downhill

3399
03:04:14,240 --> 03:04:16,000
Speaker 13: kind of thing. If you're trying geting a settlement from

3400
03:04:16,000 --> 03:04:17,800
Speaker 13: the state, maybe you could say that, you know, the

3401
03:04:17,879 --> 03:04:21,160
Speaker 13: injury sustained contributed to the death, but that's you can't

3402
03:04:21,240 --> 03:04:23,280
Speaker 13: tell me that slipping in the parking lot and then

3403
03:04:23,360 --> 03:04:27,080
Speaker 13: dying six years later is an experience unique to the

3404
03:04:27,200 --> 03:04:31,800
Speaker 13: dangers of law enforcement. A district attorney who flipped his

3405
03:04:31,920 --> 03:04:34,120
Speaker 13: car after hitting a log that fell off a truck

3406
03:04:34,200 --> 03:04:36,440
Speaker 13: on the highway on a Friday night is not a

3407
03:04:36,560 --> 03:04:38,840
Speaker 13: law enforcement line of duty death because that not only

3408
03:04:38,920 --> 03:04:41,440
Speaker 13: was that not a cop it was a single car accident.

3409
03:04:42,120 --> 03:04:44,960
Speaker 13: And when DeSoto County Search and Rescue Director Deputy William

3410
03:04:45,000 --> 03:04:47,800
Speaker 13: Nichols went on a beach vacation and took his family

3411
03:04:47,879 --> 03:04:51,320
Speaker 13: into the ocean despite red flag riptide hazard condition warnings.

3412
03:04:51,920 --> 03:04:54,640
Speaker 13: He lost his life trying to rescue his son. And

3413
03:04:54,760 --> 03:04:58,560
Speaker 13: that's very sad. But drowning on vacation is not a

3414
03:04:58,720 --> 03:05:02,640
Speaker 13: line of duty death. When Indiana Department of Natural Resources

3415
03:05:02,680 --> 03:05:05,320
Speaker 13: Sergeant Ed Bollman and his friend drowned in the middle

3416
03:05:05,320 --> 03:05:08,200
Speaker 13: of a frozen lake while ice fishing, that wasn't a

3417
03:05:08,360 --> 03:05:11,200
Speaker 13: line of duty death. It's just a sad accident while

3418
03:05:11,280 --> 03:05:12,160
Speaker 13: dudes were hanging out.

3419
03:05:13,800 --> 03:05:17,400
Speaker 3: These people, they really, they really should have a bad

3420
03:05:17,440 --> 03:05:18,480
Speaker 3: time around water.

3421
03:05:21,240 --> 03:05:27,119
Speaker 13: Float. There is a shocking number of drowning desks where

3422
03:05:27,120 --> 03:05:29,000
Speaker 13: the cop just like the second his feet caught we

3423
03:05:29,160 --> 03:05:34,040
Speaker 13: he just disappeared. Don't get them wet. It's not a

3424
03:05:34,080 --> 03:05:35,720
Speaker 13: gremlin situation to.

3425
03:05:35,720 --> 03:05:40,040
Speaker 14: Include swimming in the cop test, right, Oh no, I

3426
03:05:40,120 --> 03:05:42,800
Speaker 14: mean these people barely know how to point their guns.

3427
03:05:43,040 --> 03:05:46,160
Speaker 6: Like expecting them to be able to swim is the

3428
03:05:46,200 --> 03:05:48,120
Speaker 6: standards or that that's a bit too high of a

3429
03:05:48,160 --> 03:05:48,959
Speaker 6: standard for them.

3430
03:05:49,640 --> 03:05:51,200
Speaker 13: I mean, to be fair, most of these deaths are

3431
03:05:51,280 --> 03:05:54,840
Speaker 13: single car accidents. One guy died after t boning a

3432
03:05:54,959 --> 03:05:58,240
Speaker 13: school bus. The children were fine, the children.

3433
03:05:58,000 --> 03:05:59,800
Speaker 3: Were oh, thank god, okay, thank god.

3434
03:06:00,600 --> 03:06:02,160
Speaker 2: Weh and so.

3435
03:06:02,320 --> 03:06:06,040
Speaker 13: Rather than a detailed statistical analysis relying on uniformly reported

3436
03:06:06,080 --> 03:06:10,760
Speaker 13: official data, the ODMP relies on user submitted content. So

3437
03:06:10,879 --> 03:06:16,280
Speaker 13: people are submitting things and then Wikipedia, Yeah, Wikipedia for bootleggers, no,

3438
03:06:16,959 --> 03:06:20,600
Speaker 13: no thanks. But when National Police Week rolls around, it's

3439
03:06:20,720 --> 03:06:25,240
Speaker 13: their inflated numbers in every infographic, not the FBI's methodologically

3440
03:06:25,320 --> 03:06:27,920
Speaker 13: consistent data. And if I'm being generous, you know you

3441
03:06:27,959 --> 03:06:30,200
Speaker 13: could write that off on the ease of access to

3442
03:06:30,280 --> 03:06:33,199
Speaker 13: the data on ODMP. It's very user friendly. It shows

3443
03:06:33,200 --> 03:06:35,240
Speaker 13: you a little picture and a bio of each officer.

3444
03:06:35,400 --> 03:06:38,520
Speaker 13: It's very easy to use. You can search by year, agency,

3445
03:06:38,640 --> 03:06:42,040
Speaker 13: cause of death, state, or an officer's name. It's not

3446
03:06:42,160 --> 03:06:44,640
Speaker 13: a wall of small text with little data tables and

3447
03:06:44,720 --> 03:06:47,920
Speaker 13: links to ZIP files of more data tables. The FBI's

3448
03:06:47,920 --> 03:06:50,440
Speaker 13: report is ugly and it's uncompelling, and it's sort of

3449
03:06:50,480 --> 03:06:53,320
Speaker 13: overwhelming to navigate. If that's not something you are interested

3450
03:06:53,360 --> 03:06:55,200
Speaker 13: in doing, so don't want to be too hard on

3451
03:06:55,240 --> 03:06:57,440
Speaker 13: the twenty two year old news anchor scrambling to put

3452
03:06:57,520 --> 03:06:59,720
Speaker 13: something on the screen at six o'clock. The officer down

3453
03:06:59,760 --> 03:07:01,480
Speaker 13: the more page makes it a matter of a few

3454
03:07:01,520 --> 03:07:03,920
Speaker 13: easy clicks for your local news anchor to find a

3455
03:07:03,959 --> 03:07:06,640
Speaker 13: handful of local interest stories to run on May fifteenth.

3456
03:07:07,600 --> 03:07:10,160
Speaker 13: But the people who run the website know exactly what

3457
03:07:10,280 --> 03:07:14,160
Speaker 13: they're doing, and it's an intentional ideological project to perpetuate

3458
03:07:14,240 --> 03:07:17,480
Speaker 13: the myth of the courageous, noble policeman doing America's most

3459
03:07:17,560 --> 03:07:20,280
Speaker 13: dangerous and thankless job, a job that is uniquely and

3460
03:07:20,360 --> 03:07:25,480
Speaker 13: outlandishly perilous, standing apart from any other profession, and that

3461
03:07:26,440 --> 03:07:29,240
Speaker 13: that's not true. That's not true. And for this I

3462
03:07:29,360 --> 03:07:33,160
Speaker 13: take you to another government agency's annual reports, the Bureau

3463
03:07:33,200 --> 03:07:34,400
Speaker 13: of Labor Statistics.

3464
03:07:34,640 --> 03:07:37,480
Speaker 3: Oh, I love this report. This is the best one.

3465
03:07:38,959 --> 03:07:39,440
Speaker 6: The Bureau of.

3466
03:07:39,440 --> 03:07:42,120
Speaker 13: Labor Statistics has consistently reported, I'm talking, you know, for

3467
03:07:42,160 --> 03:07:45,119
Speaker 13: the last thirty years, consistently since the nineties, a fatal

3468
03:07:45,200 --> 03:07:48,760
Speaker 13: workplace injury rate for police officers of around fourteen per

3469
03:07:48,920 --> 03:07:52,680
Speaker 13: one hundred thousand full time equivalent employees. You know, it

3470
03:07:52,800 --> 03:07:55,360
Speaker 13: varies year to year, but it's consistently a little under

3471
03:07:55,440 --> 03:07:59,120
Speaker 13: fourteen per hundred thousand. And of course, yes, that is

3472
03:07:59,280 --> 03:08:01,959
Speaker 13: higher than the now average for all labor categories.

3473
03:08:02,320 --> 03:08:03,360
Speaker 3: So for all workers.

3474
03:08:03,440 --> 03:08:06,080
Speaker 13: In the US, the workplace fatality rate is about three

3475
03:08:06,160 --> 03:08:08,840
Speaker 13: point seven per hundred thousand, So the cops are dying

3476
03:08:08,840 --> 03:08:11,440
Speaker 13: at a rate of four times higher than the average worker.

3477
03:08:12,320 --> 03:08:15,640
Speaker 13: And of course it's more dangerous if your job requires

3478
03:08:16,080 --> 03:08:18,840
Speaker 13: driving all day most of these cops die in car accidents.

3479
03:08:19,200 --> 03:08:22,120
Speaker 13: Or if your job involves mishandling a firearm every day,

3480
03:08:22,200 --> 03:08:25,000
Speaker 13: of course it's more dangerous to do that than it

3481
03:08:25,120 --> 03:08:27,440
Speaker 13: is to do data entry or be a cashier. I mean,

3482
03:08:27,520 --> 03:08:30,240
Speaker 13: obviously we do not have a high mortality rate for

3483
03:08:30,320 --> 03:08:34,040
Speaker 13: the average desk job. But while it is more dangerous

3484
03:08:34,080 --> 03:08:37,600
Speaker 13: than being a receptionist, policing doesn't even crack the top

3485
03:08:37,800 --> 03:08:42,560
Speaker 13: ten for most dangerous professions. Loggers are seven times more

3486
03:08:42,720 --> 03:08:45,200
Speaker 13: likely to die on the job. Roofers are more than

3487
03:08:45,280 --> 03:08:47,640
Speaker 13: four times more likely than a cop to die due

3488
03:08:47,640 --> 03:08:50,280
Speaker 13: to a workplace incident. Being a fisherman is more than

3489
03:08:50,320 --> 03:08:52,280
Speaker 13: three and a half times more dangerous than being a cop.

3490
03:08:52,840 --> 03:08:56,600
Speaker 13: General construction work is more than three times more dangerous

3491
03:08:56,600 --> 03:08:59,880
Speaker 13: than police work. Delivery drivers are more than twice as

3492
03:09:00,120 --> 03:09:02,080
Speaker 13: likely to die at work than a cop. It is

3493
03:09:02,120 --> 03:09:04,199
Speaker 13: more dangerous to be a day laborer on a farm

3494
03:09:04,280 --> 03:09:07,320
Speaker 13: picking fruit, or to drive a garbage truck. Being a

3495
03:09:07,400 --> 03:09:09,480
Speaker 13: cop has a similar level of risk of death by

3496
03:09:09,520 --> 03:09:13,320
Speaker 13: workplace incident as being a groundskeeper, So it is about

3497
03:09:13,440 --> 03:09:15,840
Speaker 13: as safe as being the guy that cuts the grass

3498
03:09:15,879 --> 03:09:16,320
Speaker 13: at the park.

3499
03:09:17,120 --> 03:09:17,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

3500
03:09:17,360 --> 03:09:21,120
Speaker 6: And I think there's a real issue with a labor

3501
03:09:21,200 --> 03:09:25,720
Speaker 6: reporting for like the category of farm worker, because whenever

3502
03:09:25,760 --> 03:09:28,000
Speaker 6: you see data that says like farm worker, that can

3503
03:09:28,200 --> 03:09:30,680
Speaker 6: either mean someone who's actually a farm worker, or it

3504
03:09:30,760 --> 03:09:32,680
Speaker 6: can mean like a guy who sits in an air

3505
03:09:32,720 --> 03:09:36,800
Speaker 6: condition office every day. And even the bure of Laboristics

3506
03:09:36,879 --> 03:09:39,840
Speaker 6: is not very good at actually sifting those out because

3507
03:09:39,879 --> 03:09:43,760
Speaker 6: there's been a sustained effort by like farm owners to

3508
03:09:44,760 --> 03:09:47,520
Speaker 6: make sure this data is like as non transparent as possible.

3509
03:09:47,680 --> 03:09:50,880
Speaker 6: So I am I will say, I am fairly confident.

3510
03:09:51,000 --> 03:09:52,959
Speaker 6: I cannot say this is nasty effect. I am fairly

3511
03:09:53,000 --> 03:09:55,720
Speaker 6: confident that farming is actually significantly more dangerous than the

3512
03:09:55,760 --> 03:09:59,160
Speaker 6: real labor statistics says, so like it is so much

3513
03:09:59,240 --> 03:10:02,800
Speaker 6: more dangerous you like pick your food that it is

3514
03:10:02,920 --> 03:10:03,600
Speaker 6: to be a cop.

3515
03:10:04,120 --> 03:10:05,960
Speaker 13: And because I think for a lot of industries there

3516
03:10:06,040 --> 03:10:09,560
Speaker 13: is a lot of incentive to underreport workplace accidents, I

3517
03:10:09,600 --> 03:10:11,600
Speaker 13: think policing is one of the only industries where they

3518
03:10:11,600 --> 03:10:15,680
Speaker 13: are incentivized to over report accidents. Right, So the data

3519
03:10:15,800 --> 03:10:18,080
Speaker 13: is I mean, even for as skewed as the data

3520
03:10:18,160 --> 03:10:20,760
Speaker 13: may be at the point of entry, it's still a

3521
03:10:20,800 --> 03:10:22,280
Speaker 13: lot safer to be a cop than it is to

3522
03:10:22,400 --> 03:10:23,040
Speaker 13: drive a truck.

3523
03:10:24,520 --> 03:10:26,360
Speaker 14: And this is with the numbers of them like falling

3524
03:10:26,400 --> 03:10:27,039
Speaker 14: into a puddle.

3525
03:10:28,320 --> 03:10:28,440
Speaker 6: Right.

3526
03:10:29,240 --> 03:10:31,320
Speaker 13: Well, so I think the Bureau of Labor Statistics is

3527
03:10:31,400 --> 03:10:34,720
Speaker 13: probably using something closer to the FBI numbers, Okay, which

3528
03:10:34,800 --> 03:10:37,280
Speaker 13: is still I mean, you know, on.

3529
03:10:37,280 --> 03:10:40,960
Speaker 6: The other hand, cops are the biggest babies about this

3530
03:10:41,240 --> 03:10:42,800
Speaker 6: in the entire world.

3531
03:10:42,879 --> 03:10:45,640
Speaker 13: Because they can't paid leave. If every time you had

3532
03:10:45,680 --> 03:10:47,640
Speaker 13: a booboo at work you could just go home for

3533
03:10:47,720 --> 03:10:48,680
Speaker 13: a week, you'd do it too.

3534
03:10:49,760 --> 03:10:49,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

3535
03:10:50,040 --> 03:10:51,680
Speaker 6: But also, I mean, just like in the media, it's

3536
03:10:51,720 --> 03:10:54,680
Speaker 6: like these people never shut up about how dangerous their

3537
03:10:54,760 --> 03:10:58,440
Speaker 6: job is, and it's like your job is more safe

3538
03:10:58,920 --> 03:11:02,880
Speaker 6: than like most of the actual hard jobs people work,

3539
03:11:03,000 --> 03:11:04,920
Speaker 6: like please shut up, Oh my god.

3540
03:11:06,920 --> 03:11:09,120
Speaker 13: And the one thing that all those jobs have in common,

3541
03:11:09,240 --> 03:11:12,360
Speaker 13: aside from requiring you to be braver, smarter, and stronger

3542
03:11:12,400 --> 03:11:16,400
Speaker 13: than a cop, they don't typically come with platinum level

3543
03:11:16,480 --> 03:11:20,720
Speaker 13: healthcare paid leave for minor booboos. State subsidized life insurance,

3544
03:11:20,920 --> 03:11:23,200
Speaker 13: a pension, a discount at the coffee shop, and a

3545
03:11:23,320 --> 03:11:24,199
Speaker 13: license to kill.

3546
03:11:24,840 --> 03:11:26,560
Speaker 3: Do you know what else has a license to kill?

3547
03:11:27,120 --> 03:11:30,320
Speaker 13: Okay, I was gonna say, before we get into really

3548
03:11:30,440 --> 03:11:33,520
Speaker 13: honoring our boys on this special day, I think we

3549
03:11:33,560 --> 03:11:36,440
Speaker 13: should take a quick ad break that is hopefully not

3550
03:11:36,520 --> 03:11:51,000
Speaker 13: an ad for the Washington State Patrol. Okay, And with

3551
03:11:51,120 --> 03:11:53,440
Speaker 13: all that background out of the way, would you care

3552
03:11:53,520 --> 03:11:56,480
Speaker 13: to join me in commemorating some of the officers our

3553
03:11:56,600 --> 03:11:59,240
Speaker 13: nation is honoring this National Police Week.

3554
03:11:59,480 --> 03:12:00,480
Speaker 14: This is what I came here for.

3555
03:12:01,160 --> 03:12:01,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, so excited.

3556
03:12:03,160 --> 03:12:04,920
Speaker 13: Now, before we get into the handful I picked out

3557
03:12:04,959 --> 03:12:06,560
Speaker 13: for us today, I want to be really clear for

3558
03:12:06,640 --> 03:12:08,879
Speaker 13: the boys over at the officer down memorial page, because

3559
03:12:08,879 --> 03:12:13,160
Speaker 13: their website specifically prohibits the use of their content for

3560
03:12:13,280 --> 03:12:16,600
Speaker 13: commercial purposes. So I will say I found these names

3561
03:12:16,640 --> 03:12:20,160
Speaker 13: on their website, but I don't trust their methodology enough

3562
03:12:20,200 --> 03:12:22,240
Speaker 13: to take their content at face value, so I wouldn't

3563
03:12:22,280 --> 03:12:24,880
Speaker 13: use it as a source anyway, even if I were

3564
03:12:24,920 --> 03:12:27,480
Speaker 13: allowed to do that. So for each of these vignettes,

3565
03:12:27,520 --> 03:12:30,320
Speaker 13: I pulled original contemporaneous local reporting on the incidents, and

3566
03:12:30,440 --> 03:12:34,400
Speaker 13: in some cases actual court records, so you can't get me.

3567
03:12:37,520 --> 03:12:41,000
Speaker 13: In twenty ten, Saint Joseph, Missouri police officer Dan Dacry

3568
03:12:41,120 --> 03:12:44,480
Speaker 13: was participating in a training exercise. During a break, he

3569
03:12:44,560 --> 03:12:47,040
Speaker 13: and another officer put down the training weapons they've been using,

3570
03:12:47,280 --> 03:12:51,080
Speaker 13: which were loaded with something called simmunition, So simulated ammunition.

3571
03:12:51,160 --> 03:12:54,760
Speaker 13: It's not real bullets, it's a plastic, non lethal object

3572
03:12:54,879 --> 03:12:55,360
Speaker 13: that goes.

3573
03:12:55,240 --> 03:12:55,640
Speaker 2: In the gun.

3574
03:12:56,400 --> 03:12:59,320
Speaker 13: Before leaving the training facility, which was a recently closed

3575
03:12:59,360 --> 03:13:02,400
Speaker 13: elementary score to walk to a nearby convenience store to

3576
03:13:02,400 --> 03:13:05,320
Speaker 13: get a soda, the officers put down their training weapons

3577
03:13:05,560 --> 03:13:08,080
Speaker 13: and holstered their duty weapons. So to walk down the

3578
03:13:08,120 --> 03:13:09,920
Speaker 13: street to get to the seven eleven, they needed their

3579
03:13:09,959 --> 03:13:11,480
Speaker 13: real guns, so they put their real guns back on

3580
03:13:11,560 --> 03:13:15,520
Speaker 13: in case they encountered any emergency situations. Yeah, in case,

3581
03:13:15,640 --> 03:13:18,680
Speaker 13: you know, in case they saw it. We'll get to

3582
03:13:18,760 --> 03:13:23,480
Speaker 13: a dog, so they holstered their duty weapons. Upon returning

3583
03:13:23,480 --> 03:13:26,080
Speaker 13: after their break, drinks in hand, officer to Cry asked

3584
03:13:26,120 --> 03:13:29,680
Speaker 13: his colleague, officer Jason Strong, to shoot him with a

3585
03:13:29,760 --> 03:13:33,000
Speaker 13: simmunition round because he wanted to know what it would

3586
03:13:33,160 --> 03:13:33,640
Speaker 13: feel like.

3587
03:13:35,280 --> 03:13:39,200
Speaker 14: Oh my gosh, that's just a beautiful desire, you know,

3588
03:13:39,480 --> 03:13:40,039
Speaker 14: just curious.

3589
03:13:40,200 --> 03:13:44,240
Speaker 13: He's just curious, you know, a day would be curious,

3590
03:13:45,959 --> 03:13:48,760
Speaker 13: and so officers Strong drew his weapon and shot officer

3591
03:13:48,840 --> 03:13:54,280
Speaker 13: to Cry in the back. I guess they both forgot

3592
03:13:54,520 --> 03:13:57,040
Speaker 13: that they put their real guns back on and not

3593
03:13:57,160 --> 03:13:59,520
Speaker 13: their training weapons. So I don't know if you ever

3594
03:14:00,040 --> 03:14:02,240
Speaker 13: may you probably know this, but the if it's not

3595
03:14:02,360 --> 03:14:04,560
Speaker 13: a real gun, if it has fake bullets in it,

3596
03:14:04,640 --> 03:14:07,520
Speaker 13: if it is a training object, it has an orange tip.

3597
03:14:07,920 --> 03:14:09,720
Speaker 14: I was going to ask that. I was going to ask,

3598
03:14:09,760 --> 03:14:11,960
Speaker 14: you can't look identical to a real gun.

3599
03:14:12,320 --> 03:14:17,040
Speaker 13: They're easily visually distinguishable for an important reason. And I

3600
03:14:17,080 --> 03:14:19,800
Speaker 13: guess he didn't look so he pulled it out and

3601
03:14:19,800 --> 03:14:22,560
Speaker 13: shot him in the back, and the officer Decry died

3602
03:14:22,640 --> 03:14:23,280
Speaker 13: later that day.

3603
03:14:23,520 --> 03:14:24,760
Speaker 14: Wow incredible.

3604
03:14:25,120 --> 03:14:25,800
Speaker 3: Well.

3605
03:14:26,560 --> 03:14:30,160
Speaker 13: Later reporting on the incident indicates the department did say

3606
03:14:30,160 --> 03:14:32,520
Speaker 13: they were going to revise some of their policies regarding

3607
03:14:32,560 --> 03:14:36,440
Speaker 13: standard procedure for checking weapons in and out at training exercises.

3608
03:14:36,720 --> 03:14:38,320
Speaker 13: So you have to check your weapon in when you

3609
03:14:38,440 --> 03:14:40,560
Speaker 13: get your toy gun, and then you check it back out.

3610
03:14:41,320 --> 03:14:44,440
Speaker 13: They did not do that previously, but they revised those

3611
03:14:44,480 --> 03:14:48,160
Speaker 13: procedures and declined to comment further. The officer who killed

3612
03:14:48,240 --> 03:14:50,720
Speaker 13: Dan Decry was not charged and remained with the department.

3613
03:14:51,240 --> 03:14:53,840
Speaker 13: Officer Decrai's family received a settlement of three hundred and

3614
03:14:53,879 --> 03:14:57,320
Speaker 13: seventy six thousand dollars from the City of Saint Joseph. Again,

3615
03:14:57,400 --> 03:15:00,320
Speaker 13: settlement money does not come from police departments. It comes

3616
03:15:00,360 --> 03:15:03,320
Speaker 13: from the municipality. It comes from just the taxpayers. It

3617
03:15:03,360 --> 03:15:05,240
Speaker 13: does not affect the police's budget to do this.

3618
03:15:05,600 --> 03:15:06,400
Speaker 14: That enrages me.

3619
03:15:08,040 --> 03:15:11,119
Speaker 6: You know, to give to give credit to that guy, though,

3620
03:15:11,440 --> 03:15:14,840
Speaker 6: actually hitting your cop, hitting their target on the first

3621
03:15:14,879 --> 03:15:16,279
Speaker 6: shot is pretty remarkable.

3622
03:15:16,320 --> 03:15:17,680
Speaker 3: That that is a shooting.

3623
03:15:17,760 --> 03:15:19,280
Speaker 6: The guy in the back on the first tries a

3624
03:15:19,320 --> 03:15:23,680
Speaker 6: pretty remarkable feet of cop marksmanship. So maybe for his

3625
03:15:23,760 --> 03:15:26,560
Speaker 6: knee though that's true, we don't know he was heading

3626
03:15:26,600 --> 03:15:27,000
Speaker 6: for the back.

3627
03:15:28,240 --> 03:15:30,280
Speaker 13: It's just remarkable. I just want to know what it

3628
03:15:30,320 --> 03:15:31,040
Speaker 13: would feel like.

3629
03:15:31,440 --> 03:15:33,520
Speaker 14: I wonder how close he was too. He must have

3630
03:15:33,520 --> 03:15:35,000
Speaker 14: been close.

3631
03:15:35,120 --> 03:15:37,520
Speaker 13: Yeah, I imagine there was sort of a conversational distance.

3632
03:15:37,680 --> 03:15:42,760
Speaker 14: That's insane. That is just I cannot well, well.

3633
03:15:42,640 --> 03:15:45,760
Speaker 13: Well, well, our next story of a cop who should

3634
03:15:45,840 --> 03:15:48,000
Speaker 13: not have gotten wet. It was not actually even about

3635
03:15:48,000 --> 03:15:53,000
Speaker 13: a cop. In two thousand and seven, David Polling drowned

3636
03:15:53,040 --> 03:15:56,720
Speaker 13: in the Ohio River. Polling, Who's thirty two at the time,

3637
03:15:56,800 --> 03:15:59,160
Speaker 13: had previously been employed as a police officer with the

3638
03:15:59,160 --> 03:16:02,600
Speaker 13: Gallipolis Police Department and at a different time as a

3639
03:16:02,640 --> 03:16:05,680
Speaker 13: sheriff's deputy with the Galia County Sheriff's Office, So by

3640
03:16:05,760 --> 03:16:07,640
Speaker 13: thirty two he's been both a police officer and a

3641
03:16:07,680 --> 03:16:09,959
Speaker 13: sheriff's deputy, but he is neither of those things anymore.

3642
03:16:10,640 --> 03:16:12,600
Speaker 13: In two thousand and seven, he was working as a

3643
03:16:12,879 --> 03:16:17,520
Speaker 13: parole officer. In the reporting from the time, it's not

3644
03:16:17,720 --> 03:16:22,000
Speaker 13: actually clear why he was present, but he was nearby

3645
03:16:22,400 --> 03:16:25,039
Speaker 13: when a police officer stopped a pedestrian on the sidewalk

3646
03:16:25,120 --> 03:16:27,600
Speaker 13: and frisked him because he suspected this man may have

3647
03:16:27,760 --> 03:16:29,840
Speaker 13: just come out of the house where he believed drug

3648
03:16:29,959 --> 03:16:32,120
Speaker 13: deals were being conducted, so he's doing a stop and

3649
03:16:32,160 --> 03:16:35,080
Speaker 13: frisk on a guy mined in his business. The man

3650
03:16:35,320 --> 03:16:37,560
Speaker 13: was not charged with a drug offense when this was

3651
03:16:37,600 --> 03:16:39,880
Speaker 13: all over, so I guess they didn't find drugs. But

3652
03:16:40,000 --> 03:16:43,640
Speaker 13: during the encounter, the man bolted, and Polling, who again

3653
03:16:44,080 --> 03:16:47,360
Speaker 13: had a cop just a guy who's nearby, chased after him.

3654
03:16:47,920 --> 03:16:50,400
Speaker 13: The man jumped into the Ohio River, and Polling jumped

3655
03:16:50,400 --> 03:16:54,000
Speaker 13: in after him. The suspect, Joseph Harris, made it quickly

3656
03:16:54,080 --> 03:16:55,720
Speaker 13: to a small island in the middle of the river,

3657
03:16:56,560 --> 03:17:00,920
Speaker 13: but polling immediately after hitting the water, sank and disappeared.

3658
03:17:01,840 --> 03:17:02,520
Speaker 6: No, he did not.

3659
03:17:04,240 --> 03:17:06,640
Speaker 13: It took hours for divers to recover his body.

3660
03:17:07,600 --> 03:17:09,959
Speaker 14: When you said they didn't float, that wasn't a joke.

3661
03:17:10,520 --> 03:17:12,640
Speaker 13: No, he just disappeared, like the second was the water.

3662
03:17:12,720 --> 03:17:13,440
Speaker 13: He was just gone.

3663
03:17:14,520 --> 03:17:14,800
Speaker 2: That is.

3664
03:17:16,440 --> 03:17:18,039
Speaker 14: Comical. I can't believe that's real.

3665
03:17:18,640 --> 03:17:21,240
Speaker 13: Like, did he not did he know he couldn't swim?

3666
03:17:22,760 --> 03:17:23,840
Speaker 6: He could float?

3667
03:17:24,200 --> 03:17:24,520
Speaker 4: Like what?

3668
03:17:24,879 --> 03:17:26,280
Speaker 14: He just stuck down to the bar.

3669
03:17:26,640 --> 03:17:28,960
Speaker 6: It's it's so good too, because it's like, you know,

3670
03:17:29,280 --> 03:17:33,000
Speaker 6: you could attribute this to just purely like the first

3671
03:17:33,040 --> 03:17:34,800
Speaker 6: story of a drowning, where it's like, Okay, the cop

3672
03:17:34,920 --> 03:17:36,920
Speaker 6: clearly went into a situation he shouldn't have been in

3673
03:17:37,000 --> 03:17:39,640
Speaker 6: because he's a cop and doesn't think about, oh wait,

3674
03:17:39,680 --> 03:17:40,720
Speaker 6: the ways you get to kill people.

3675
03:17:40,760 --> 03:17:43,760
Speaker 3: Like No, clearly this river was symable. The other guy

3676
03:17:43,920 --> 03:17:45,119
Speaker 3: made it made.

3677
03:17:45,560 --> 03:17:47,840
Speaker 13: The other guy was fine. Well, the other guy was

3678
03:17:47,920 --> 03:17:50,520
Speaker 13: fine until they charged him with manslaughter and he did

3679
03:17:50,600 --> 03:17:51,520
Speaker 13: four years in jail.

3680
03:17:51,760 --> 03:17:54,000
Speaker 14: Oh but he was but wait, this is the guy

3681
03:17:54,040 --> 03:17:56,160
Speaker 14: that didn't have was in charge with drugs but was

3682
03:17:56,240 --> 03:17:57,400
Speaker 14: charged with man kind of.

3683
03:17:57,520 --> 03:17:59,640
Speaker 6: A bad slaughter because the other guy jumped in.

3684
03:18:01,320 --> 03:18:04,280
Speaker 14: Wait for manslaughter for the cop that sunk.

3685
03:18:04,480 --> 03:18:08,040
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, wow, but like some guy who's not even

3686
03:18:08,080 --> 03:18:11,480
Speaker 13: a cop is just chasing you. That's kind of on him. Yeah,

3687
03:18:11,640 --> 03:18:13,360
Speaker 13: he was convicted of manslaughter.

3688
03:18:13,720 --> 03:18:17,520
Speaker 14: That is I hate that. But also can you just

3689
03:18:17,680 --> 03:18:21,840
Speaker 14: imagine just this cop like Mario, jumping into like a

3690
03:18:21,959 --> 03:18:26,320
Speaker 14: river and just completely just like like the video game

3691
03:18:26,400 --> 03:18:27,720
Speaker 14: sound and the bottom.

3692
03:18:29,720 --> 03:18:32,640
Speaker 13: And you do have to wonder how he had worked

3693
03:18:32,680 --> 03:18:35,080
Speaker 13: for two different police agencies and then didn't work for

3694
03:18:35,200 --> 03:18:37,879
Speaker 13: either of any more by the age of thirty two.

3695
03:18:39,280 --> 03:18:39,480
Speaker 4: I did.

3696
03:18:39,680 --> 03:18:41,760
Speaker 13: I did a little looking. I couldn't find anything about that,

3697
03:18:41,879 --> 03:18:44,200
Speaker 13: but it's it's an unusual career trajectory.

3698
03:18:44,560 --> 03:18:48,400
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, it's like he's getting bounced down to lower

3699
03:18:48,520 --> 03:18:49,480
Speaker 6: leagues every time.

3700
03:18:49,520 --> 03:18:53,120
Speaker 3: It's like, howre you that? It's you're a cop? Like,

3701
03:18:53,200 --> 03:18:55,040
Speaker 3: it's how do you screw that?

3702
03:18:55,280 --> 03:18:56,120
Speaker 2: Up? Right?

3703
03:18:56,160 --> 03:18:58,000
Speaker 13: It would seem that he wasn't a cop anymore because

3704
03:18:58,000 --> 03:19:02,280
Speaker 13: he wasn't allowed to be a copy. Yeah, And now

3705
03:19:02,360 --> 03:19:04,240
Speaker 13: this third one is the one that I had in

3706
03:19:04,320 --> 03:19:06,720
Speaker 13: mind when I first started writing this episode, and it's

3707
03:19:06,760 --> 03:19:09,480
Speaker 13: really just on its surface, kind of the perfect encapsulation

3708
03:19:09,600 --> 03:19:11,600
Speaker 13: of this foolish project, right, it's got a guy getting

3709
03:19:11,600 --> 03:19:13,280
Speaker 13: shot in the crotch. It's got a cop trying to

3710
03:19:13,360 --> 03:19:15,840
Speaker 13: kill a dog. It's got a dirty cop. It's got

3711
03:19:15,879 --> 03:19:18,240
Speaker 13: a cop staying on the force after a string of

3712
03:19:18,360 --> 03:19:23,160
Speaker 13: expensive mishaps. This is just policing. But when I started

3713
03:19:23,160 --> 03:19:26,600
Speaker 13: looking for primary sources about this incident, actually just kept

3714
03:19:26,680 --> 03:19:28,680
Speaker 13: getting weirder. And now I'm kind of down a new

3715
03:19:28,760 --> 03:19:31,160
Speaker 13: rabbit hole of got some requests out for more documents.

3716
03:19:31,959 --> 03:19:34,680
Speaker 13: I'm gonna figure this out. Something happened here. But before

3717
03:19:34,680 --> 03:19:38,040
Speaker 13: I tell you about Officer Henry Macalene and Junior, we'll

3718
03:19:38,040 --> 03:19:50,840
Speaker 13: take another quick ad break, all right. I hope he

3719
03:19:51,000 --> 03:19:53,080
Speaker 13: used that ad break time not only to think about

3720
03:19:53,080 --> 03:19:56,360
Speaker 13: products and services, but to reflect on the sacrifice of

3721
03:19:56,920 --> 03:20:00,400
Speaker 13: the parole officer who drowned in the Ohio River. On

3722
03:20:00,520 --> 03:20:04,320
Speaker 13: August twenty first, two thousand, Miami Dade Police officers Henry

3723
03:20:04,360 --> 03:20:08,440
Speaker 13: Macalene and Junior and his partner Ittala Elias responded to

3724
03:20:08,520 --> 03:20:10,720
Speaker 13: a request from a home alarm company to check out

3725
03:20:10,760 --> 03:20:12,800
Speaker 13: what turned out to be a false alarm at a

3726
03:20:12,840 --> 03:20:16,240
Speaker 13: residential home in southwest Miami. Arriving on the scene, they

3727
03:20:16,280 --> 03:20:19,360
Speaker 13: found no sign of a break in, nothing unusual, and

3728
03:20:19,440 --> 03:20:22,640
Speaker 13: no one answered the front door. Normally a cop would

3729
03:20:22,640 --> 03:20:25,560
Speaker 13: probably just leave. They don't really like working. They don't

3730
03:20:25,560 --> 03:20:27,240
Speaker 13: really like doing their jobs. It's hard and it's boring,

3731
03:20:27,280 --> 03:20:29,080
Speaker 13: and they have candy Crush to play Molly.

3732
03:20:29,160 --> 03:20:31,240
Speaker 14: It's dangerous, it's dangerous.

3733
03:20:31,959 --> 03:20:34,960
Speaker 13: It was a weekday, afternoon in a nice neighborhood in Miami,

3734
03:20:35,520 --> 03:20:38,160
Speaker 13: but the home belonged to a retired Miami police detective.

3735
03:20:38,680 --> 03:20:41,640
Speaker 13: So they took you know, they did the extra mile. So,

3736
03:20:41,840 --> 03:20:44,280
Speaker 13: after determining there was no sign of the breaking out front,

3737
03:20:44,320 --> 03:20:46,080
Speaker 13: no one answered the door, they went around the back

3738
03:20:46,120 --> 03:20:49,520
Speaker 13: of the house and entered the backyard, where two rottweilers

3739
03:20:49,600 --> 03:20:52,760
Speaker 13: quote came running at them. According to a South Florida

3740
03:20:52,879 --> 03:20:56,920
Speaker 13: Sun article that week, Macalenan pulled out his expandable baton

3741
03:20:57,000 --> 03:21:01,560
Speaker 13: and began beating the dogs. Really just doing their job

3742
03:21:01,600 --> 03:21:02,480
Speaker 13: in their own backyard.

3743
03:21:02,920 --> 03:21:04,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like that.

3744
03:21:04,360 --> 03:21:06,400
Speaker 6: That's the normal thing that happens when.

3745
03:21:06,320 --> 03:21:09,400
Speaker 3: You walk towards a dog, is it runs towards.

3746
03:21:09,120 --> 03:21:12,200
Speaker 14: You're invading its territory. You shouldn't be there.

3747
03:21:12,879 --> 03:21:14,800
Speaker 13: You gotta figure a guy who has a home alarm

3748
03:21:14,920 --> 03:21:18,000
Speaker 13: system and two rottweilers like that, is that dog's job?

3749
03:21:18,400 --> 03:21:21,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I keep thinking about that, uh, that

3750
03:21:22,160 --> 03:21:25,160
Speaker 6: picture of Mike Bloomberg when he was running in twenty twenty.

3751
03:21:25,280 --> 03:21:29,120
Speaker 6: They were like, he just grabs the dog's face. Oh yeah,

3752
03:21:30,000 --> 03:21:32,959
Speaker 6: where It's like there's just something like on a fundamental level,

3753
03:21:33,280 --> 03:21:37,119
Speaker 6: like we co evolved with this animal, and like if

3754
03:21:37,160 --> 03:21:42,520
Speaker 6: you like cannot do the basic this is a dog

3755
03:21:43,040 --> 03:21:45,039
Speaker 6: and your response is like I'm gonna grab his face,

3756
03:21:45,160 --> 03:21:46,960
Speaker 6: or your response is I Am going to beat this

3757
03:21:47,120 --> 03:21:50,600
Speaker 6: dog up with a baton, like you have somehow fundamentally

3758
03:21:50,680 --> 03:21:52,840
Speaker 6: failed at like the process of being human.

3759
03:21:53,959 --> 03:21:56,640
Speaker 13: And also like if the dogs are immediately reacting to

3760
03:21:56,760 --> 03:21:59,360
Speaker 13: your presence in the yard and they were not previously

3761
03:21:59,440 --> 03:22:02,280
Speaker 13: reacting to anything, maybe you could assume there was no

3762
03:22:02,360 --> 03:22:04,360
Speaker 13: break in. Maybe you could assume the dogs have it

3763
03:22:04,440 --> 03:22:08,120
Speaker 13: covered and you maybe don't break into the yard. But

3764
03:22:08,240 --> 03:22:10,440
Speaker 13: our boy, Henry, he's beating these dogs with a stick,

3765
03:22:10,920 --> 03:22:13,360
Speaker 13: and I guess maybe he was struggling, so his partner,

3766
03:22:13,480 --> 03:22:17,320
Speaker 13: officer Elias, drew her service weapon and attempted to shoot

3767
03:22:17,400 --> 03:22:20,600
Speaker 13: the dogs as he is beating them. Wow. Now, we

3768
03:22:20,720 --> 03:22:24,800
Speaker 13: talked before about some problems with aiming, right, cops don't

3769
03:22:24,920 --> 03:22:31,840
Speaker 13: have great marksmanship. When you're talking about a complicated physical situation, right,

3770
03:22:31,920 --> 03:22:34,320
Speaker 13: they're sort of entangled. The dogs are small, the man

3771
03:22:34,480 --> 03:22:39,880
Speaker 13: is big. She shot him in the dick, so he's

3772
03:22:39,920 --> 03:22:43,280
Speaker 13: beating these dogs. She shoots him in the groin. It

3773
03:22:43,360 --> 03:22:46,480
Speaker 13: doesn't say what happened to the dogs, but it doesn't

3774
03:22:46,520 --> 03:22:49,720
Speaker 13: indicate she fired her service weapon multiple times, so maybe

3775
03:22:49,760 --> 03:22:53,040
Speaker 13: she just shot him and then put it up. He

3776
03:22:53,200 --> 03:22:56,440
Speaker 13: was airlifted to the hospital to undergo emergency groin surgery,

3777
03:22:56,800 --> 03:23:01,440
Speaker 13: and he did survive. Oh mackalleenen continued to serve with

3778
03:23:01,520 --> 03:23:05,800
Speaker 13: the Miami Dade Police Department for another sixteen years, and

3779
03:23:05,879 --> 03:23:07,800
Speaker 13: he was still with the department when he passed away

3780
03:23:07,920 --> 03:23:11,920
Speaker 13: in twenty sixteen at the age of sixty six. His

3781
03:23:12,040 --> 03:23:14,960
Speaker 13: own obituary does not list a cause of death, only

3782
03:23:15,040 --> 03:23:17,119
Speaker 13: that his wife was at his bedside for thirty six

3783
03:23:17,240 --> 03:23:20,640
Speaker 13: days before he passed. The first mention of macleen in's

3784
03:23:20,640 --> 03:23:23,200
Speaker 13: passing being a line of duty death is in a

3785
03:23:23,400 --> 03:23:28,440
Speaker 13: National Police Week local news piece the following year, which

3786
03:23:28,520 --> 03:23:32,680
Speaker 13: lists his cause of death as accidental gunfire. A year later,

3787
03:23:32,800 --> 03:23:35,960
Speaker 13: in twenty eighteen, a Police Week story indicates that he

3788
03:23:36,080 --> 03:23:39,200
Speaker 13: was quote killed by gunfire on the date that he

3789
03:23:39,280 --> 03:23:42,280
Speaker 13: died in twenty sixteen, it's not until years later that

3790
03:23:42,360 --> 03:23:45,160
Speaker 13: you start to see claims that his cause of death

3791
03:23:45,280 --> 03:23:47,960
Speaker 13: was due to complications from the sixteen year old wound.

3792
03:23:48,360 --> 03:23:51,440
Speaker 13: So it's not clear where that claim even originated. But

3793
03:23:51,520 --> 03:23:54,520
Speaker 13: he did die sixteen years after being shot, and during

3794
03:23:54,520 --> 03:23:57,200
Speaker 13: those intervening sixteen years, he was well enough to continue

3795
03:23:57,240 --> 03:23:58,120
Speaker 13: to serve on the force.

3796
03:24:00,280 --> 03:24:02,640
Speaker 14: I mean, if you know, if the family went with

3797
03:24:03,120 --> 03:24:05,280
Speaker 14: that lie, maybe they got money out of it. I

3798
03:24:05,280 --> 03:24:05,560
Speaker 14: don't know.

3799
03:24:07,560 --> 03:24:09,200
Speaker 13: I guess it's possible.

3800
03:24:09,320 --> 03:24:11,199
Speaker 14: Well, I mean, there was what else, What other motive

3801
03:24:11,240 --> 03:24:13,440
Speaker 14: is there other than I don't know.

3802
03:24:13,959 --> 03:24:16,800
Speaker 13: I see an indication that there was a wrongful death lawsuit.

3803
03:24:16,879 --> 03:24:19,640
Speaker 13: After he died. He did file a civil lawsuit in

3804
03:24:19,680 --> 03:24:22,680
Speaker 13: two thousand and four against the homeowner retired Miami detective

3805
03:24:22,720 --> 03:24:26,360
Speaker 13: Haysou's Karamas, but that was dismissed and he didn't even

3806
03:24:26,400 --> 03:24:28,400
Speaker 13: recover attorney's fees. He didn't get anything out of that.

3807
03:24:29,120 --> 03:24:34,080
Speaker 6: Wait, so he tried, so he started beating two dogs

3808
03:24:34,160 --> 03:24:37,080
Speaker 6: with a baton, and his partner shot him in the balls.

3809
03:24:37,160 --> 03:24:39,880
Speaker 6: Tried to hit the dog, and he tried to sue

3810
03:24:40,200 --> 03:24:42,120
Speaker 6: the guy whose house you broke into.

3811
03:24:43,160 --> 03:24:45,080
Speaker 3: I mean, this is incredible.

3812
03:24:45,520 --> 03:24:49,560
Speaker 13: If the homeowner hadn't been a retired potentially dirty cop.

3813
03:24:49,959 --> 03:24:52,400
Speaker 13: I found some articles in the eighties alleging that this,

3814
03:24:52,720 --> 03:24:55,360
Speaker 13: So I'm not alleging in the in the eighties, this

3815
03:24:55,840 --> 03:24:59,279
Speaker 13: officer Hasus Karamas, who is deceased now, but was suspended

3816
03:24:59,360 --> 03:25:03,040
Speaker 13: briefly during an investigation into a ring of Miami officers

3817
03:25:03,080 --> 03:25:06,360
Speaker 13: who were trafficking cocaine. Of course, I don't know how

3818
03:25:06,440 --> 03:25:07,200
Speaker 13: that turned out.

3819
03:25:08,280 --> 03:25:11,640
Speaker 6: Well, I mean probably it went fine, like well.

3820
03:25:11,640 --> 03:25:13,440
Speaker 13: Yeah, he didn't get fired because he was still at

3821
03:25:13,440 --> 03:25:15,080
Speaker 13: a force in nineteen ninety seven when he shot a

3822
03:25:15,080 --> 03:25:16,199
Speaker 13: guy during a traffic stop.

3823
03:25:16,520 --> 03:25:18,760
Speaker 14: Wow Christ, but no.

3824
03:25:18,840 --> 03:25:22,200
Speaker 13: His his lawsuit against the homeowner, the alarm company, and

3825
03:25:22,400 --> 03:25:26,480
Speaker 13: the woman who shot him did not succeed. Did not succeed.

3826
03:25:27,400 --> 03:25:30,840
Speaker 14: I mean, at least there's that he loved being a

3827
03:25:30,920 --> 03:25:34,240
Speaker 14: cop so much getting his or did I say Crosser cop?

3828
03:25:34,640 --> 03:25:36,720
Speaker 14: He loved being a cop so much as Crosser shot

3829
03:25:36,760 --> 03:25:40,400
Speaker 14: off and he doesn't stop him. I didn't stop him.

3830
03:25:41,120 --> 03:25:43,200
Speaker 13: I do have a request into the court clerk in

3831
03:25:43,280 --> 03:25:46,160
Speaker 13: Miami to see if I can so the documents are

3832
03:25:46,200 --> 03:25:48,400
Speaker 13: so old that they're not all uploaded on the court website,

3833
03:25:48,480 --> 03:25:50,880
Speaker 13: but I would like to see the original civil complaint

3834
03:25:50,920 --> 03:25:52,960
Speaker 13: because maybe it goes into more detail about sort of

3835
03:25:53,080 --> 03:25:55,000
Speaker 13: the severity of his injuries and the ways in which

3836
03:25:55,040 --> 03:25:57,640
Speaker 13: that he he truly suffered from this. Maybe that'll give

3837
03:25:57,680 --> 03:25:59,680
Speaker 13: us some more insight into how it killed him.

3838
03:25:59,600 --> 03:26:00,680
Speaker 6: Sixty years later.

3839
03:26:01,200 --> 03:26:03,880
Speaker 13: So hopefully, hopefully the clerk in Miami gets back to

3840
03:26:03,959 --> 03:26:05,920
Speaker 13: me with that, because I do want to know what happened.

3841
03:26:05,640 --> 03:26:06,360
Speaker 2: To the dogs.

3842
03:26:06,720 --> 03:26:09,400
Speaker 14: Oh yeah, that's all I really care about there now.

3843
03:26:09,520 --> 03:26:12,680
Speaker 13: The officer who shot Macalene and in the crotch, Ittala Elias,

3844
03:26:13,200 --> 03:26:15,120
Speaker 13: had been on the force for about five years at

3845
03:26:15,120 --> 03:26:17,760
Speaker 13: the time of the incident. In that time, she had

3846
03:26:17,800 --> 03:26:26,880
Speaker 13: wrecked her patrol car six times wow, injured her hand

3847
03:26:27,120 --> 03:26:30,720
Speaker 13: slamming it in a car door, and racked up fifty

3848
03:26:30,800 --> 03:26:35,000
Speaker 13: thousand dollars in workman's comp and medical expense reimbursement after

3849
03:26:35,160 --> 03:26:37,959
Speaker 13: falling off a bicycle during a training exercise.

3850
03:26:37,959 --> 03:26:38,119
Speaker 2: Oh.

3851
03:26:40,600 --> 03:26:43,120
Speaker 13: As of twenty twenty two, Ittala Elias is still an

3852
03:26:43,160 --> 03:26:45,960
Speaker 13: officer with the Miami Dade Police Department, earning one hundred

3853
03:26:45,959 --> 03:26:47,200
Speaker 13: and eight thousand dollars a year.

3854
03:26:47,760 --> 03:26:54,360
Speaker 14: Wow, that's just I mean, I wonder how many more

3855
03:26:54,440 --> 03:26:57,360
Speaker 14: car accidents she's she's been in. If that was her

3856
03:26:57,840 --> 03:27:01,039
Speaker 14: record in five years. Wow, that's impressive.

3857
03:27:01,120 --> 03:27:03,920
Speaker 6: Like, I am trying to think of another job that

3858
03:27:04,040 --> 03:27:07,560
Speaker 6: you could keep after crashing your car six times.

3859
03:27:07,360 --> 03:27:09,360
Speaker 13: On the j I'm shooting someone in the dick.

3860
03:27:09,959 --> 03:27:16,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, chid cops, well, cops.

3861
03:27:16,640 --> 03:27:19,160
Speaker 6: Cops have the kind of job security that was previously

3862
03:27:19,320 --> 03:27:22,920
Speaker 6: reserved for like workers in state owned industries in Maoist China.

3863
03:27:23,480 --> 03:27:25,840
Speaker 6: Like no one else has ever had this kind of

3864
03:27:26,000 --> 03:27:27,320
Speaker 6: job security before.

3865
03:27:28,360 --> 03:27:31,879
Speaker 13: And so I will end our stories here because Sophie

3866
03:27:31,920 --> 03:27:33,200
Speaker 13: will put one of us in the pit if the

3867
03:27:33,280 --> 03:27:36,160
Speaker 13: episodes keep coming out over an hour long. But there

3868
03:27:36,200 --> 03:27:40,040
Speaker 13: are an unbelievable number of stories of cops getting hurt

3869
03:27:40,160 --> 03:27:43,200
Speaker 13: doing shit they were not supposed to be doing. A

3870
03:27:43,280 --> 03:27:45,600
Speaker 13: cop who died because he didn't know which antibiotics he

3871
03:27:45,680 --> 03:27:47,959
Speaker 13: was allergic to when he went to the hospital because

3872
03:27:47,959 --> 03:27:50,320
Speaker 13: he was messing around with an injured feral cat and

3873
03:27:50,400 --> 03:27:54,280
Speaker 13: got scratched the fuck. A prison guard who tripped in

3874
03:27:54,360 --> 03:27:57,640
Speaker 13: the wreckyard and hit his head. A shocking number of

3875
03:27:57,720 --> 03:28:01,400
Speaker 13: accidents at the shooting range or during training exitizes.

3876
03:28:01,000 --> 03:28:02,680
Speaker 14: THEASE wan know what it felt like. THEASE want to

3877
03:28:02,720 --> 03:28:03,480
Speaker 14: know what it felt.

3878
03:28:03,320 --> 03:28:07,520
Speaker 13: Like, including one very weird one where they were role

3879
03:28:07,600 --> 03:28:10,080
Speaker 13: playing a scenario and so these were cops in the

3880
03:28:10,480 --> 03:28:13,800
Speaker 13: Gaming Commission, so casino cops, but during a training exercises,

3881
03:28:13,959 --> 03:28:16,360
Speaker 13: During a training exercise, they were role playing a scenario

3882
03:28:16,480 --> 03:28:18,800
Speaker 13: where one of the cops was being attacked by an assailant,

3883
03:28:18,840 --> 03:28:21,280
Speaker 13: and he was supposed to, you know, roleplay it out right.

3884
03:28:21,320 --> 03:28:24,600
Speaker 13: They're pretending this is pretend they're in a conference room.

3885
03:28:25,120 --> 03:28:28,040
Speaker 13: But he got scared and drew his real gun and

3886
03:28:28,240 --> 03:28:31,480
Speaker 13: really shot and really killed the director of the Mississippi

3887
03:28:31,520 --> 03:28:40,160
Speaker 13: Gaming Commission. Almost every cop death was completely preventable. They're

3888
03:28:40,320 --> 03:28:43,120
Speaker 13: careless and they're reckless, and they're doing shit they should

3889
03:28:43,200 --> 03:28:46,520
Speaker 13: not be doing. They're counting normal wear and tear, like

3890
03:28:46,640 --> 03:28:49,360
Speaker 13: knee injuries and heart attacks as though these are noble

3891
03:28:49,440 --> 03:28:52,480
Speaker 13: deaths of martyrs. And it's all part of this ideological

3892
03:28:52,560 --> 03:28:55,960
Speaker 13: project of myth making around American policing, right, because you

3893
03:28:56,160 --> 03:28:58,920
Speaker 13: have to believe that this is a uniquely dangerous and

3894
03:28:59,120 --> 03:29:03,560
Speaker 13: frightening job only the bravest boys can do. Because they're

3895
03:29:03,680 --> 03:29:07,000
Speaker 13: under so much risk, they have to react the way

3896
03:29:07,000 --> 03:29:10,000
Speaker 13: that they do. They have to react with extreme violence.

3897
03:29:10,040 --> 03:29:12,400
Speaker 13: They have to shoot first and ask questions later because

3898
03:29:12,400 --> 03:29:15,240
Speaker 13: their job is just so dangerous, Right, And I think

3899
03:29:15,280 --> 03:29:18,160
Speaker 13: it's interesting as we drive to a clothes to draw

3900
03:29:18,160 --> 03:29:21,959
Speaker 13: a comparison here, right, because they react with great violence

3901
03:29:22,000 --> 03:29:25,960
Speaker 13: against us because of their fear of imaginary violence that

3902
03:29:26,080 --> 03:29:30,360
Speaker 13: they might face. So the FBI prepares this meticulous report

3903
03:29:30,440 --> 03:29:34,320
Speaker 13: every year with rigorous and mandatory data collection processes, so

3904
03:29:34,400 --> 03:29:36,800
Speaker 13: we have a comprehensive set of data about not just

3905
03:29:36,840 --> 03:29:39,600
Speaker 13: every cop who dies, but every cop who is assaulted

3906
03:29:39,680 --> 03:29:42,320
Speaker 13: on the job. The LEOCA report includes on the job

3907
03:29:42,480 --> 03:29:45,400
Speaker 13: assaults and injuries, so we have a very clear idea

3908
03:29:45,440 --> 03:29:48,240
Speaker 13: of how much violence and how many accidents cops are

3909
03:29:48,320 --> 03:29:51,160
Speaker 13: exposed to, mostly in the form of single car accidents.

3910
03:29:52,120 --> 03:29:53,080
Speaker 8: But we have the data.

3911
03:29:53,879 --> 03:29:57,880
Speaker 13: There is no equivalent data for the kinds of violence

3912
03:29:57,920 --> 03:30:02,000
Speaker 13: police perpetrate on others. The FBI only started collecting information

3913
03:30:02,160 --> 03:30:04,720
Speaker 13: for the National Use of Force Database in twenty nineteen,

3914
03:30:05,240 --> 03:30:08,720
Speaker 13: and participation in that data collection process remains optional.

3915
03:30:12,920 --> 03:30:16,600
Speaker 14: Yeah, three years ago, four five, what year it is.

3916
03:30:16,920 --> 03:30:21,760
Speaker 13: That was revoluntary. It's voluntary. So police departments do not

3917
03:30:22,040 --> 03:30:24,440
Speaker 13: have to tell anyone, They do not have to tell

3918
03:30:24,560 --> 03:30:28,240
Speaker 13: the federal government when they kill someone. They don't have

3919
03:30:28,280 --> 03:30:31,760
Speaker 13: to report that. So comprehensive data on police killings is

3920
03:30:31,800 --> 03:30:35,080
Speaker 13: something that only exists when newsrooms and nonprofits scrape the

3921
03:30:35,120 --> 03:30:38,320
Speaker 13: information together on their own. The Washington Post has a

3922
03:30:38,520 --> 03:30:42,000
Speaker 13: very thorough police shooting database, and nonprofit websites like Mapping

3923
03:30:42,080 --> 03:30:45,080
Speaker 13: Police Violence do their best to document each case, but

3924
03:30:45,240 --> 03:30:48,840
Speaker 13: even they admit they aren't capturing every fatal encounter with police.

3925
03:30:49,720 --> 03:30:53,080
Speaker 13: So while the FBI reports literally just a few dozen

3926
03:30:53,680 --> 03:30:57,840
Speaker 13: officers a year fall into the feloniously killed category in

3927
03:30:57,840 --> 03:31:00,720
Speaker 13: the Leoga report, so not the our accident one. So

3928
03:31:00,760 --> 03:31:03,360
Speaker 13: there's a few dozen actual killings of officers a year,

3929
03:31:05,240 --> 03:31:07,440
Speaker 13: we can only hope to know the names of the

3930
03:31:07,520 --> 03:31:11,520
Speaker 13: average of over twelve hundred people who are killed each

3931
03:31:11,600 --> 03:31:15,480
Speaker 13: year by a cop, and that does kind of send

3932
03:31:15,520 --> 03:31:20,800
Speaker 13: a message about whose lives matter. So as you celebrate

3933
03:31:20,959 --> 03:31:23,000
Speaker 13: National Police Week this week, I guess you'll be hearing

3934
03:31:23,040 --> 03:31:24,680
Speaker 13: this on Friday if you listen to it the day

3935
03:31:24,680 --> 03:31:28,520
Speaker 13: it comes out, just take a moment to remember our

3936
03:31:28,640 --> 03:31:32,879
Speaker 13: brave boys like Lonnie Burton, who tripped on a curb

3937
03:31:33,040 --> 03:31:36,920
Speaker 13: outside of the Wayland Baptist University police station and later

3938
03:31:37,040 --> 03:31:41,760
Speaker 13: died of complications, or brave officers like Trooper Jack Holland

3939
03:31:42,240 --> 03:31:46,439
Speaker 13: who died because he was allergic to yellowjackets, or officers

3940
03:31:46,560 --> 03:31:49,840
Speaker 13: like Deputy Sheriff Joseph Baka, who was trying to tackle

3941
03:31:49,879 --> 03:31:52,480
Speaker 13: a suspect to the ground and fell into a bee's nest.

3942
03:31:53,080 --> 03:31:55,800
Speaker 13: It turns out he was allergic to bees.

3943
03:31:58,600 --> 03:31:59,840
Speaker 3: It's beautiful, coach.

3944
03:32:00,080 --> 03:32:02,080
Speaker 13: Yeah, I should have I should have asked you both

3945
03:32:02,080 --> 03:32:03,920
Speaker 13: your hometown so I could get you a local boy,

3946
03:32:04,480 --> 03:32:10,800
Speaker 13: because one of my favorites is patrolman Billy Toot. Billy Toot.

3947
03:32:11,640 --> 03:32:14,440
Speaker 13: He was a jailer in Richmond who died when two

3948
03:32:14,520 --> 03:32:18,200
Speaker 13: inmates were trying to escape after they obtained pistols that

3949
03:32:18,280 --> 03:32:20,880
Speaker 13: were smuggled into the jail inside of a baked turkey.

3950
03:32:21,120 --> 03:32:22,280
Speaker 13: That just sounds like a cartoon.

3951
03:32:22,800 --> 03:32:24,280
Speaker 3: Hell not how it worked for them?

3952
03:32:24,879 --> 03:32:27,760
Speaker 13: Yeah, well it it was in nineteen thirty four. I

3953
03:32:27,800 --> 03:32:29,880
Speaker 13: don't think you could put guns inside of a turkey anymore.

3954
03:32:30,760 --> 03:32:33,920
Speaker 14: I just have a whole turkey as security detector or something.

3955
03:32:35,480 --> 03:32:38,480
Speaker 13: But yes, And I hope you're all having a safe

3956
03:32:38,640 --> 03:32:41,400
Speaker 13: and healthy police week and that you celebrate that by

3957
03:32:41,520 --> 03:32:43,400
Speaker 13: not encountering any policeman.

3958
03:32:47,280 --> 03:32:50,400
Speaker 1: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3959
03:32:50,520 --> 03:32:52,360
Speaker 1: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

3960
03:32:53,000 --> 03:32:55,320
Speaker 13: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

3961
03:32:55,600 --> 03:32:58,200
Speaker 11: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3962
03:32:58,280 --> 03:33:01,400
Speaker 11: cool zonemedia dot com, or check out on the iHeartRadio app,

3963
03:33:01,400 --> 03:33:04,600
Speaker 11: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can

3964
03:33:04,640 --> 03:33:07,280
Speaker 11: find sources for It could happen here, updated monthly at

3965
03:33:07,360 --> 03:33:10,560
Speaker 11: coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.