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Speaker 1: Good morning, peep Sena. Welcome to wikay f Daily with

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Speaker 1: me your girl Danielle Moody from the Brooklyn Bunker. Folks,

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Speaker 1: this is a little holiday special that we put together

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Speaker 1: with our old friend Torrey, who has a new online

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Speaker 1: book called The Ivy League Counterfeiter and it is at script.

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Speaker 1: You can get the audio version or you can get

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Speaker 1: the breed version of the book, and it's really exciting.

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Speaker 1: I joined Torrey an interviewed him on his own show,

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Speaker 1: The Torrey Show, which you can get wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your podcasts, about his old friend who went to boarding school,

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Speaker 1: got into Columbia University and during his ups and downs

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Speaker 1: through his life, became a counterfeiter for six months and

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Speaker 1: ended up in federal prison. And the premise of the

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Speaker 1: book is, how does someone who has access to a

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Speaker 1: world outside of his own the opportunity to go down

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Speaker 1: a path of legitimacy after seeing his own brother end

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Speaker 1: up in the prison industrial complex, how does he decide

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Speaker 1: to do the alternative? And so the book takes, you know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of twists and turns, and this is you know,

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Speaker 1: someone that Torrey knew and he spent a couple of

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Speaker 1: years interviewing his family members, his old you know, Columbia

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Speaker 1: University friends, his old friends at boarding school, to get

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Speaker 1: a sense of who this person was and why they

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Speaker 1: decided on a life of crime. It reads like a

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast. It is so easy and good and

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Speaker 1: enjoyable and shocking that it's a true story. So folks

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Speaker 1: check out my interview. This was a cross collab with

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Speaker 1: The Torrey Show aired earlier with my old friend Tore

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Speaker 1: about his new book, The Ivy League Counterfeiter that's coming

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Speaker 1: up next. Tore, it's been forever in a day. So

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Speaker 1: excited to be back with you. Um, so excited. I

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Speaker 1: thrilled eave him, um your new book. I cannot believe

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Speaker 1: that The Ivy League Counterfeiter, your new book is a

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Speaker 1: truth story because it was one of the most like

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Speaker 1: outrageous stories that I think that I have read in

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Speaker 1: quite some time. And I kept having to go back

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, this is like he knew this man.

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Speaker 1: So Cliff Evans Ivy League gets into prep school is

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Speaker 1: from the quote unquote, Hood has two paths set in

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Speaker 1: front of him in his life. One that he knows

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Speaker 1: because we will talk about his older brother. One that

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Speaker 1: is a life of crime. That leads, as you wrote

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Speaker 1: in the book, two places, it leads to prison or

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Speaker 1: an early death. Right. There's not a lot in between

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Speaker 1: that happens when you choose those, yeah, right, and then

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Speaker 1: the other life, which you would think, or at least

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Speaker 1: America has told us that when you have an Ivy

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Speaker 1: League education, even if you happen to be black and

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Speaker 1: from the hood, there are lots of opportunities and choices

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Speaker 1: to make money, to make a name, which is what

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Speaker 1: Cliff Evans, your former friend, really wanted. He wanted to

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Speaker 1: make a name for himself. He wanted to be bigger,

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Speaker 1: and he felt that there was only one way to go.

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Speaker 1: I just want to ask you before we jump into,

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Speaker 1: like the specifics of the book, what compelled you. It's

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Speaker 1: been I guess, well close to almost three decades since

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Speaker 1: he has passed, since well since the since the story

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Speaker 1: came together. He passed in twenty ten. Okay, he passed

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Speaker 1: in twenty ten. Story this happens mostly in nineteen ninety six, Okay,

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Speaker 1: But you know, Cliff was somebody that I remembered from

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Speaker 1: high school. He was one of the guys from from school,

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Speaker 1: not everybody from your high school. You remember twenty years later.

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Speaker 1: There might be some people who you went to high

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Speaker 1: school with who'd come up to you right now, anyone

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Speaker 1: listening right now and be like I went to high

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Speaker 1: school with. You'd be like, I don't remember you. Cliff

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Speaker 1: was not one of those people. He was one of

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Speaker 1: those people that everybody who was around him at that

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Speaker 1: time would remember him. He was charismatic, he was kind

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Speaker 1: of larger than life. He made an impact on everybody

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Speaker 1: he was around, and he was a complicated person. And

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Speaker 1: I had just always had it in the back of

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Speaker 1: my mind, like, this is a fantastic story, and I

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Speaker 1: want to tell this story even more deeply. Somebody who

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Speaker 1: found a copier and copied money photo copied money. That

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Speaker 1: is not how you do it. Because I found actual counterfeiters,

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Speaker 1: and when I told them his method, they laughed, that's hysterical.

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Speaker 1: That is not how it's done. Found a copier, distributed

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Speaker 1: money all around the city, other cities, and was really

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Speaker 1: going for it. And like, there's a lot of people

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Speaker 1: in his circle in Columbia that I was able to meet,

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Speaker 1: his Columbia University crew and people who knew him, close

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Speaker 1: to him whatever. They were telling him, you need to

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Speaker 1: stop and As the summer went on and he kept

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Speaker 1: doing it, they were like, Oh, this isn't a small

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Speaker 1: little hobby for you. You're like trying to make a

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Speaker 1: thing out of this, Like you need to stop. And

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Speaker 1: people kept telling him you need to stop, and he

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Speaker 1: would be like and they said he was fearless. And

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Speaker 1: in a way, we sort of prize and celebrate people

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Speaker 1: who seem fearless. But at a certain point, fear is

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Speaker 1: valuable because it will keep you from driving off the

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Speaker 1: ledge right in any any number of ways. And he

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Speaker 1: was clearly heading toward driving off the ledge, but he

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Speaker 1: had no fear, and he kept ongoing. As the summer

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Speaker 1: went on, of summer of counterfeiting, people are falling away,

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Speaker 1: like I don't want to be near you. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to work in your organization. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: be your friend right now because lightning is about to strike.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to be standing next to you when

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Speaker 1: it happens. And there was there was a person who

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Speaker 1: was a friend who was not in the operation, who

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Speaker 1: talks about going to see him on the day that

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Speaker 1: he got arrested. Not no, I'm going to see my

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Speaker 1: friend in the apartment where he's lived for a couple

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Speaker 1: of years, not what's going on. He gets to the

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Speaker 1: apartment and he's walking up the stairs. This isn't Harlem,

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Speaker 1: and he sees like all these people in the hallway,

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Speaker 1: which is weird, and then he sees there all these

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Speaker 1: black boots and by the time he gets a little

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Speaker 1: closer up and realizes it's a bunch of law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: he's like, well, it's too late to turn around now,

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Speaker 1: so I have to walk through this little operation where

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Speaker 1: all these cops or whatever are in the hallway. Cliff

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Speaker 1: and his other lieutenant were in the hallway in handcuffs

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Speaker 1: about to be brought down. He sees his friends, and

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Speaker 1: he human nature, you just look at your friends and

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Speaker 1: you want to express something to them. But he also

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Speaker 1: knows if I am too expressive to them, then the

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Speaker 1: police will think I'm with them and I will go

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Speaker 1: downtown with them. So it's sort of like a quick

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Speaker 1: look and then look away, keep walking to escape that

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Speaker 1: whole situation. He did get away from them, jumps in

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Speaker 1: the elevator, goes downstairs, saw them being marched out by

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Speaker 1: police and was like, oh my god, Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: he's going down. But it's just such a crazy story

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Speaker 1: for me, not just Cliff dying to be part of

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Speaker 1: the criminal underworld by any means necessary, but also like

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Speaker 1: what happens in his family. Yeah, it's you know, I

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Speaker 1: want to go to the beginning because there is there

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Speaker 1: are so many characters in this story. There are so

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Speaker 1: many people that are involved in Cliff's life. But one

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Speaker 1: of the characters that I found most interesting was your

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Speaker 1: prep school and the your prep school, Milton Milton Academy

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Speaker 1: is you know what you would presume a prep school

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Speaker 1: to be largely filled with very white, very affluent kids

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Speaker 1: from named families, and notably the kids of color. The

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Speaker 1: black kids that are there, not all, but some like

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Speaker 1: him were there on scholarships, right because they were smart

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Speaker 1: enough to get in. And the way that you describe

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Speaker 1: this school and the academy and the kids there and

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Speaker 1: this like Cliff is he's with this group, but not

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Speaker 1: with them. It's like the black kids are there but

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Speaker 1: not really there, right, They're they're being exposed. You all

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Speaker 1: are being exposed to super wealth, ultra wealth. Right that you,

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Speaker 1: even if you are successful and do all of the

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Speaker 1: right things, you may never acquire because you weren't born

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Speaker 1: into that kind of generational wealth, and so I just

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Speaker 1: wanted you to talk a bit about he shows up

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Speaker 1: and other kids in his situation, coming from his community

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Speaker 1: the South Side of Chicago, may have, by no fault

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Speaker 1: of their own, try and separated themselves from the community

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Speaker 1: that they came from, right, try and separate themselves from

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Speaker 1: the brother that is incarcerated at the time. He doesn't,

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Speaker 1: and you make note of that. Yeah. Yeah, Cliff is

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Speaker 1: sent to boarding school because people around him notice he's smart,

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Speaker 1: but also his family's breaking apart. His brother, who is

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Speaker 1: a bank robber, has been arrested. He's going to go

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Speaker 1: away for many years. His parents' relationship is breaking up.

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Speaker 1: Everybody around him sees he needs something new. Twelve years old,

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Speaker 1: he leaves Chicago to go to Massachusetts to board a

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Speaker 1: Milton Academy, and it wasn't easy for him. At his

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Speaker 1: full ride freshman year, his grades are so bad they

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Speaker 1: hold him back, which is unusual at Milton. They don't

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Speaker 1: like to hold people back that much. So the school

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Speaker 1: believed in him so much that even though he basically

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Speaker 1: flunked his ninth grade year on a full ride, they

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Speaker 1: gave him another chance to do the ninth grade. This

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Speaker 1: time he does much better. He approaches Milton saying, I

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Speaker 1: want to make sure everybody knows I'm a tough guy.

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Speaker 1: I'm from the streets of Chicago. I've seen stuff, I've

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Speaker 1: done stuff. I remember the first couple of years, people

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Speaker 1: were doubtful and skeptical that what he said was true.

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Speaker 1: The later years of Milton, people started to more believe

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Speaker 1: maybe he is telling the truth. His Columbia group, they

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Speaker 1: had no question that he was telling the truth. But

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Speaker 1: he always wanted you to know, I'm a tough guy,

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Speaker 1: I'm from the hood, I'm from the streets. Other people, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, came to Milton and wanted to sort of

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Speaker 1: distance himselves from that. But you know, the eighties, because

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Speaker 1: he enters Milton, I believe it was eighty six. The

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Speaker 1: eighties was a tricky time to be a black person

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Speaker 1: in these private schools. I think there were very, very

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Speaker 1: very few of us in these sort of private schools

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Speaker 1: in the seventies right, almost none in the sixties. Right

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Speaker 1: right by the eighties, the principle of affirmative action is

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Speaker 1: really in full swing in America, and there's an understanding

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Speaker 1: in these institutions that we have to bring some black

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Speaker 1: people in and while I was going to the school,

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Speaker 1: they started to do that. They started to notice the

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Speaker 1: retention rates were very low. Students were coming in and leaving.

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Speaker 1: Michael Eric Dyson talks about that in his life, that

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Speaker 1: he got into a great Detroit private school. There was

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Speaker 1: some racism, there was some stress, there was some culture clashes,

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Speaker 1: and he ended up having to leave, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of people had that story. Milton and some other schools

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Speaker 1: started to do things to increase retention, right, So like,

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Speaker 1: there's an orientation for two weeks before orienting the kids

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Speaker 1: how to get along at Milton. But there's a huge

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Speaker 1: culture clash, and there's a sense that, you know, we

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Speaker 1: should be here because the institution should be educating, you know,

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Speaker 1: poorer people as well. But there's a difficulty in getting along.

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Speaker 1: And one of the stories that I talk about has

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Speaker 1: stuck with me for a long time a student named

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Speaker 1: Randall Dunn, who went on to become the principle of

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Speaker 1: a high end Chicago private school. He was the first

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Speaker 1: black student to ever be elected senior class president. Two

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Speaker 1: hundred plus year history of Milton Super great grades, three

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Speaker 1: sport varsity athlete. Teachers loved him, students loved him, so

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Speaker 1: the recommendations are off the charts. The high school resume

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Speaker 1: is insane. He gets into Brown and somebody tells him

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Speaker 1: to his face, you only got in because of affirmative action.

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Speaker 1: And I point out in the book, like, well, that

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Speaker 1: white student was correct, just not in the way that

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Speaker 1: he meant it. He meant it to take away you

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Speaker 1: only affirmative action got you in. Well, without affirmative action,

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Speaker 1: the school may not have considered him at all. Right,

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Speaker 1: but this was the sort of imposter syndrome note that

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Speaker 1: could be thrown and was thrown at black people. And

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Speaker 1: I remember hearing Randall come into an all boys assembly

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Speaker 1: when I was in eighth grade and tell the story

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Speaker 1: about like somebody said such and such to me and

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Speaker 1: that was wrong, and feeling like, well shit, Randall's the

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Speaker 1: most accomplished black student in the school. And he was

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Speaker 1: the most accomplished black student that I saw my entire

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Speaker 1: years at Milton. And I was like, if they think

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Speaker 1: that about him, right, then surely they think that about

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Speaker 1: all of us. I talked to another student came from

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Speaker 1: the hood, comes to Milton, and one of the major

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Speaker 1: teachers was like, I'm going to keep my eye on

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Speaker 1: you there was another student like you who we caught stealing.

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Speaker 1: You do one little thing, I'm going to send you

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Speaker 1: back home. Now is this is the conversation to a

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Speaker 1: ninth grader who has always lived in one environment and

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Speaker 1: now is in an entirely different So these sort of

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Speaker 1: moments of racism and the sort of expectation that you

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Speaker 1: are not the same as us was rife. And I

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Speaker 1: don't want to just put it on Milton. I think

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Speaker 1: that this happened at a lot of polaces, But this

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Speaker 1: is part of what Cliff was coming into this world

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Speaker 1: that looked at him like, you're not really fully belonging here.

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Speaker 1: You're here because of affirmative action. We're tolerating your presence.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time he learned. He learned this

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Speaker 1: sort of intellectual superiority that I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people gain if you go to these sort of schools

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Speaker 1: and Milton and Over, Exeter, Spence, what have you. They

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Speaker 1: don't tell you overtly, but you sort of learn to think, well,

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Speaker 1: we must be among the smartest people in the world,

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Speaker 1: otherwise we wouldn't be here. We went to Andover, went

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Speaker 1: to Exeter, we went to Milton, Choke, whatever, and it

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Speaker 1: takes some unlearning after you leave the school, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of us have talked about like we have to

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Speaker 1: sort of deconstruct some of that. But I do think

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Speaker 1: that Cliff held onto that and felt like he's the

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Speaker 1: smartest person in the room, and especially when he goes

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Speaker 1: into an underworld situation. I'm definitely the smartest person in

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Speaker 1: the room. So I can outthink all of you guys

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Speaker 1: and win at this game. But with counterfeiting, you can't win.

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Speaker 1: You can only win for a certain period of time, right,

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Speaker 1: because the whole idea of counterfeiting is that people won't

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Speaker 1: eventually figure out where the fake money is coming from, right, So,

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Speaker 1: which means that you're moving around to move money all

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Speaker 1: over the place. I mean to me, as I was listening,

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Speaker 1: it sounded exhausting. It's like counterfeiting sound exhausting as hell.

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Speaker 1: Now you're constantly spending money on small things that you

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Speaker 1: don't really want because you got to keep breaking your

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Speaker 1: fake money to get real money. But you've got to

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Speaker 1: do that by buying a hat, a drink, a little

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Speaker 1: sweater of this that. You don't want to buy anything

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Speaker 1: too expensive because then you're eating up your profits. You

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Speaker 1: can't buy anything where you can't buy a house and

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Speaker 1: you don't want to buy anything too expensive because the

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Speaker 1: ideas that then you're getting into places where people are

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Speaker 1: actually looking at the money. One of the things you

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Speaker 1: know that was mentioned in the book is that as

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Speaker 1: Cliff is trying to I guess, train his lieutenants right

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Speaker 1: and how to move this money, he's saying, well, go

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Speaker 1: to places that are dark, where they're really busy, so

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Speaker 1: they're not paying attention to what's coming in and what's

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Speaker 1: going out. And so we will move along to the

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Speaker 1: book where they decided to nine dollars at a bank

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Speaker 1: like it just it, I screamed, and I was just like,

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Speaker 1: you dummy, like somebody, you know, somebody deposits money into

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Speaker 1: an ATM. And that's where the government really started to

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Speaker 1: figure out who they were. See. One of the things

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Speaker 1: they didn't realize right, the problem was there from the beginning.

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Speaker 1: This high end copier that Cliff discovered on the campus

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Speaker 1: of Columbia University, very expensive copier. He puts a dollar

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Speaker 1: bill on it, it comes back perfectly. He told me.

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Speaker 1: He immediately saw exactly what he needed to do to

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Speaker 1: make this a business. That copier was putting a code

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Speaker 1: on every piece of paper it made that you or

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Speaker 1: I couldn't see, but law enforcement could pull out their

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Speaker 1: little microscope and go, oh now he the apartment that

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Speaker 1: Cliff lived in he called the chop zone where they

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Speaker 1: chopped up the money. So I imagine the copier was

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Speaker 1: putting a code on a piece of paper and he

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Speaker 1: is unknowingly copying let's say, six bills at once, probably

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Speaker 1: so not every bill had the code. So the police

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00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,600
Speaker 1: are sort of getting this. They're seeing this secret service

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Speaker 1: is seeing these bills, but some of them don't have

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Speaker 1: a code, right, but some of them do, so they

303
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Speaker 1: don't even Cliff doesn't even realize which bills he's handing

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Speaker 1: out that are going to sink him and which are not.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, you they one of the actual professional counterfeiters

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Speaker 1: I found. Compared it to this amazing Richard Pryor, a

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Speaker 1: movie from the eighties Brewsters Millions. Have you seen this?

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Speaker 1: You heard about these games? I would not remember, okay,

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Speaker 1: because that was before your body. Oh we're doing that, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're doing that. Richard Pryor is given let's I forget

311
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Speaker 1: the scale, but like at the time, was like gigantic numbers.

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Speaker 1: He's given like I think it was like ten million

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Speaker 1: dollars that he had to spend within like a month

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Speaker 1: or something like that, and if he accomplished that, then

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Speaker 1: he would be given one hundred million dollars like far

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Speaker 1: far more. But he had to have nothing to show

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Speaker 1: for it at the end of the spending period, so

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Speaker 1: you can't buy anything. So he's just constantly buying stuff.

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Speaker 1: So like one thing, he has a room designed, and

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Speaker 1: the designer buys, you know, all the fabrics and all

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Speaker 1: the furniture, and he walks in and he goes, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, change it. So then the designer has to

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Speaker 1: completely redesign the room. So now I've just wasted you

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Speaker 1: know what, twenty thousand dollars on like designing a room

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Speaker 1: your time, but just do it again. He just keeps

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Speaker 1: doing that over and over again. So he just what

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Speaker 1: He's just spending money to get nothing right, and it

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Speaker 1: is so numbing. I think we all know the value

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Speaker 1: and the thrill of retail therapy, but at a certain

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Speaker 1: point that would become there would be diminished returns. You'd

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Speaker 1: be like just buying more crap like all the time.

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Speaker 1: It's exhausting, and but he's but you know, can't go

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Speaker 1: back to the same place twice. So we're spreading in

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Speaker 1: New York and then we're going to Jersey, then we're

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Speaker 1: going to Philly, them we're going to That's just just

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Speaker 1: so kind of flood the zone. What is so compelling

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Speaker 1: is that he's addicted to the hustler life, like he

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Speaker 1: is addicted to this caricature of himself that he's created

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Speaker 1: in his head. And you refer to him in the book,

340
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Speaker 1: you say, you know he's smart. He's a smart guy.

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Speaker 1: He he got great grades. He goes from Milton Academy,

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Speaker 1: gets into Columbia University. I mean, this is Ivy after Ivy,

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Speaker 1: and so I'm just you know, you have interviewed for

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Speaker 1: this book. His friends, family, talk to him, talk to him.

345
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Speaker 1: What is it? Like? What was it about street life,

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Speaker 1: about the underworld that would compel somebody with such opportunity

347
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Speaker 1: that was in front of you to be like, nah,

348
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Speaker 1: I want to live It's like I'm pointing to a

349
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Speaker 1: mansion and he's like, nah, I want to live in

350
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Speaker 1: the gutter. Like I don't like, what is it. He

351
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Speaker 1: talked about seeing the hustlers as a young person, and

352
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Speaker 1: when he was young and seeing the sense of power

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Speaker 1: and freedom that they seem to have. I have money

354
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Speaker 1: without compromising, without sacrificing, without giving away any of my dignity,

355
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Speaker 1: or am like I do what I want to do.

356
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Speaker 1: That image is extremely attractive to a lot of people.

357
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Speaker 1: Most of us either have a fear that doesn't allow

358
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Speaker 1: us to go there, or we don't know how to

359
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Speaker 1: get into that world. The people who don't fall into

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Speaker 1: those two buckets can go into that way. You know,

361
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Speaker 1: I can't blame him. You know, there was a point

362
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Speaker 1: at which he was one of the biggest weed salesmen

363
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Speaker 1: at Columbia, and he's thinking about should I get a job,

364
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Speaker 1: a regular job. Now the regular job you're making what

365
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Speaker 1: forty thousand dollars? You've got to show up when the

366
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Speaker 1: boss says, you got to stay until the boss says

367
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Speaker 1: you got to take the bosses shit while you're there,

368
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Or I could make like way more

369
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Speaker 1: than that selling weed on my own. Why why would

370
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Speaker 1: I make that? Because eventually you'll cap out, like like

371
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Speaker 1: eventually right like that, I mean, that's that's what we're

372
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Speaker 1: talking marijuana. You can you can survive that game. You

373
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Speaker 1: can sell marijuana privately like underground and get out. You

374
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 1: can do that. I know a bunch of people who

375
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 1: were they sold marijuana. They dipped out without going right

376
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 1: like that, you can get away with counterfeiting. But the

377
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: interesting thing about counterfeiting, it's very important to the government

378
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Speaker 1: to stop counterfeiting. Right. We can't have fake money rolling

379
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: around the economy go to kinks every day that we

380
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 1: don't want the public to think there's a lot of

381
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 1: fake money slashing around because even worse than individuals good

382
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: doing counterfeiting would be the significant portion of the American

383
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 1: public and the global public thinking that the American dollars

384
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: not to be trusted, because there's if people thought there's

385
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: a one in four chance that your twenty is fake,

386
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Speaker 1: the American economy could collapse or could have a significant problem.

387
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: So I think when we see, you know, like a

388
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Speaker 1: drug bust, the government gets very proud of itself and

389
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 1: they display all the money and guns and cocaine on

390
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Speaker 1: the table. Look, we stopped a ten million dollars drug.

391
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,360
Speaker 1: When it's when it's counterfeiting, they want to be like,

392
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: we stopped it, no big deal, nothing to see here.

393
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: They don't want you thinking there's tons of fig money

394
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: you know, one of the guys in secret service was like,

395
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 1: the amount of counterfeit money in the American economy is

396
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Speaker 1: like less than one percent professional counterfeit was like, no,

397
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 1: I think it's more like three four that's a little

398
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: bit higher. If the average American agreed with that person,

399
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: we would have a significant problem. So the government needs

400
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: to stop counterfeiting without us realizing that counterfeiting is as

401
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: big as the problem as it is. You know, So

402
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: here's Cliff. He is counterfeiting away. He is now going

403
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 1: to start sending stacks of money to his brother. He

404
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 1: sent thirteen thousand dollars thirteen to his oilder brother, fascinating

405
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: in him of itself. But so Cliff's older brother, let's

406
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: talk about him, right, Joe, Joe Solomon. Joe Solomon is

407
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 1: passed away about a year ago. In Cliff's eyes, he's

408
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 1: the man. He's fourteen years older than Cliff. He must

409
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 1: have seemed I mean, you know, a fourteen year older

410
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 1: a brother who's fourteen years older than you would surely

411
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 1: seem extremely cool right when you're when you're a young person.

412
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: And clearly Joe loved him and seemed like it seemed

413
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: like Joe was perhaps the biggest person in his life

414
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: beside his mother. So you know he's listening to Joe,

415
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 1: he's paying attention to. Joe is the one who tells

416
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 1: Cliff how to live the life, the street life and

417
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: what to do and his big message, don't tell on

418
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: other people. And yet Joe did that in nineteen eighty

419
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: five and the bank robbery that sent him away for

420
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 1: many years, and then he does it again. So what

421
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: if I'm fascinating here is that while Cliff heads to

422
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 1: Milton where you meet him, his brother is in prison

423
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: serving over a decade, right like, he was sentenced over

424
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: a decade for a bank robbery, and yet he still

425
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: holds him. Now I'm not saying, Look, everybody has family

426
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: members that you love but you know have done dirt,

427
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: have done bad shit, but you're like, I love them.

428
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,239
Speaker 1: But it's not just a love, it's an admiration that

429
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 1: he has for him. So when he gets out, you know,

430
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: there there there, I guess, you know, back together again.

431
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: He sends him thirteen thousand dollars thirteen thousand fake ass

432
00:27:54,920 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: dollars to Chicago to flood. Essentially that well, Joe sells

433
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: that to one person for one thousand dollars Joe see

434
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: the Thing with Joe. He gets out in ninety five

435
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: and in ninety six when Cliff is doing his thing.

436
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: It starts really in May June of ninety six, goes

437
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: through summer, fall into the winter. As that period is happening,

438
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 1: Joe's heroin addiction is coming back stronger and stronger, and

439
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 1: he's in the grip of this addiction and he starts

440
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: to feel like I gotta you know, I gotta feed

441
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: the beast. He's losing to his addiction, and so he

442
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: doesn't make a plan. He just says, I need some money.

443
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get some money, pulls up in front of

444
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: a bank. It wasn't really planning. He just sort of

445
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: like scrawled a note that was illegible. The teller like

446
00:28:55,400 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: I cannot read the note. He has a bag. He

447
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: does not have a gun, but he goes up to

448
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: the teller with his hand in the bag and it's like,

449
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: give me some money, and you know, I would not

450
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: want to have to shoot you with the gun I

451
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: don't have. The teller gives him like one or two

452
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. A week later, I mean, the m O

453
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: is exactly the same. A week later, he goes to

454
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,959
Speaker 1: a different branch about the same time of day, bag note,

455
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: give me some money, walks out again with so five times.

456
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: He walks in it once a week from all from

457
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: beginning late August going through the beginning September, going through October.

458
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: He walks into a bank says, give me some money.

459
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: They give him money, he walks out. I didn't realize

460
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: that you could just do that. I thought that there

461
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: may have been other hurdles that would happen, the security guard,

462
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: anything that would happen. But he's he's walking out with

463
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: two three four thousand dollars. Five times he successively robs

464
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: a bank without a gun, without an accomplice. The sixth

465
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: time he is tackled by the security guard and the

466
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: FBI takes him away. And now they're aware of all

467
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: these robberies. And because he made the tellers think that

468
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: he had a gun and could and would shoot them,

469
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: he is up for attempted murder. Even though he didn't

470
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: have a gun and didn't have a way of actually

471
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: killing them, he made them think that he did, so

472
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,959
Speaker 1: we can charge you with attempted murder because the victim

473
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: thought his black thought is dangerous say that. So he's

474
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: talking to the FBI and he's facing one hundred and

475
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: twenty years Jesus, and the only way to mitigate a

476
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: sentence like that is to cooperate. And you can't just

477
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: cooperate regarding the crime that we're talking about. You have

478
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,239
Speaker 1: to talk about every criminal conspiracy you know about in

479
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: the world, whether or not you are specifically. And we

480
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: know that they knew about the thirteen thousand dollars because

481
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 1: they made him testify against the man he sold the

482
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: money too. I can imagine if you can see this

483
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:30,719
Speaker 1: in the theater of your mind, there's Joe Solomon, facing

484
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty years, talking to FBI agents and

485
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: eventually saying them saying, so, where'd you get thirteen thousand

486
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: dollars from? It's a lot of that's a lot of

487
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: fake money. You didn't make it. We looked in your apartment.

488
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: You don't know did you get it from? And he

489
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: had and he feels forced to say, I got it

490
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: from my brother. That I imagine the just visualizing that moment,

491
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: the jaw has to dry up at you told on

492
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: your little brother, right, who looks up to you so much?

493
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: That he bent his life course to be more like

494
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:19,239
Speaker 1: you who loves you to death, and you told on

495
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: him after telling him and teaching him that the hustler's

496
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: code is what don't you do? I mean, you don't snatch?

497
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: You know, at first, because I've realized this from reading

498
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: all of their paperwork, all their court transcript stuff, which

499
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: took a while to get. Interestingly, because some of these

500
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: fill every time anybody goes to court that it's all

501
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 1: all that is public information. You can go and get

502
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: the documents and the date of what happened in any tribe.

503
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: But a lot of the stuff was locked away because

504
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: of COVID. They sent a lot of files to warehouses

505
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: where it's like, well we can't get to it into

506
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: And we were coming out of COVID as I'm doing research.

507
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: So finally the service that I was using was like, okay,

508
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: now we can actually go get the documentary. And you know,

509
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: at first I thought like wow. Cliffs and Joe's mother like,

510
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: poor woman. Her one brother is rearrest her one son

511
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: is re arrested November first, nineteen ninety six, and her

512
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: baby is arrested November twenty sixth, nineteen ninety six. Oh

513
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: my god, I mean, this woman, she must be just heartbroken.

514
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: That what a coincidence that they were both And then

515
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: a little voice like maybe because it was so close,

516
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: maybe it's not a Quincy's like, well, and I started

517
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: reading through and that thirteen thousand dollars he testifies against

518
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: the man he sold it too. And then at cliffs

519
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: sentencing hearing, he testifies because the whole other issue comes

520
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: up and the prosecute, And at first I didn't understand

521
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: the prosecute asked him like, did you send thirteen thousand dollars? Brother?

522
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: He says yes, And at the end of that line

523
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: of questioning and I was like, why did she ask

524
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: him that she wanted to put that on the record.

525
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: But that's the connection. They knew that he sent the money,

526
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: so of course they're like, you gotta so he helps

527
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: bring his brother down. It's just so that part of

528
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: the story to me is just so sad, right, because again,

529
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: you would think ivy league educated, you would know better,

530
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 1: you would know who to trust to not to trust.

531
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: You can love your brother, but not admire him. You

532
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: can think to yourself, oh, he snitched on the last

533
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: people that knew about the bank robbery. Maybe I don't

534
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: send him thirteen thousand dollars of counterfeit money to you

535
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: at the potential that, oh, he could do to me

536
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: what he has done to other people. He wasn't really

537
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: taking the precautions that you would have thought, well, because

538
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: he had no fear, because he had no fear, because

539
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: he had because he had no fear at that point.

540
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: November twenty fifth, the day before he's arrested, Cliff is

541
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,760
Speaker 1: not in the apartment, but two or three other guys

542
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 1: are in the apartment. Seven pm. Knock on the door.

543
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: Kahn Edison is here to check the meter in your

544
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: apartment and make sure everything is okay. And they're like

545
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: an unannounced, unplanned, unasked for after work hours, seven pm

546
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: visit from Kahn Edison. The funk out of here. You're

547
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: not kN Edison. They were right, It was not con Edison.

548
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 1: They go to Cliff, you are hot, you need to stop,

549
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 1: you need to run, you need to like because they

550
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 1: are on you. They were just here trying to figure

551
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: out what's going on. Need to be out, and he

552
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: was like, Nah, it's cool, we got this, I got this.

553
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: You're a being paranoid. Do you think in this initial

554
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: that he wanted to go to prison, that prison was

555
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: going to give him the street cred, the notoriety, all

556
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: of the things that he had held so dear this

557
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: hustler life, that he could officially be a part of

558
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: the club right before, a part of you know, the

559
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 1: folklore on the streets as the major counterfeiter, and that

560
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: because why else wouldn't you run. I don't think he

561
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,320
Speaker 1: wanted to get caught. I don't think anybody really wants

562
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 1: to get caught. But I do think that perhaps that

563
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: he wanted to be big shit in the streets. He

564
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:44,280
Speaker 1: wanted everyone to know like I'm the man. I didn't

565
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: want to get caught, but saw long term the value

566
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,240
Speaker 1: of if I get arrested and I don't say anything,

567
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 1: then i'm and I do my bid quietly, then I've

568
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 1: earned That's how you really earned stripes in that world.

569
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: So he gets arrested, and what I find the most

570
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: compelling again is the sentencing process, and the fact is

571
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: here he is. He gets what people need to get.

572
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,800
Speaker 1: I guess character witnesses to write on his behalf. He's

573
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 1: a good guy. This is his first, you know, foray

574
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: into the criminal life. Give him a break, you know,

575
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: all of these things, and it seemed from the book

576
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: that even the judge seemed to like him. The judge

577
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: seems to feel bad for him, and to like, I mean,

578
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 1: the judge says some funky things in terms of you know, uh,

579
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: you know, you should thank your lucky stars. I'm only

580
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: going to sentence you to this and like, so this

581
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: very entitled tone that I don't really appreciate, but the

582
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 1: judge does seem to see like, and the prosecutor also said, like,

583
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: it didn't have to be this way for you. You

584
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,439
Speaker 1: had options, right, and like why did you do this

585
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 1: when you had options? Now, look some of some of

586
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: that question maybe in this other part of the story

587
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: when Cliff before when so after one of his lieutenants

588
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: puts money in an ATM, the Secret Service arrest him.

589
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 1: He immediately gives a statement and he says, well, that

590
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 1: guy Teddy, he's the number two guy. So they he

591
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: sets him up. He gets arrested, He gives a statement

592
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: then that are you go in and talk to Cliff

593
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: and set him up? So he walks in and gives

594
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: Cliff ten thousand fake dollars. So now you're like completely

595
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: implicated and and he says to Cliff, I don't want

596
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: to do this anymore. And Cliff said, well, we can't

597
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: quit just yet because I got a big score. Comment.

598
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: We've got a big deal that we're about to do,

599
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: and I need your help making the money. We've got

600
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:11,800
Speaker 1: to make like one hundred hundred and fifty thousand dollars

601
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: for this client. Moments later, the Secret Service breaks in

602
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 1: the door and arrest him. There's fake money, real money,

603
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: all kinds of things in the apartment. They're going to

604
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: take him down. Now, he tells the law enforcement that

605
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: it was actually a two hundred fifty thousand dollars deal.

606
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: So the number just went the number of the deal

607
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: just went up, right, Why, I have no idea, Right,

608
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 1: I'm talking to the police. I am minimizing what I did.

609
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: But he's saying, no, no, it is even bigger. So now,

610
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,399
Speaker 1: so the amount of money that you conspired to make

611
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: directly relates to your sentence how long? Right, So if

612
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 1: you make one twenty for example, let's say your face

613
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 1: in the day, you make one hundred thousand, your faith,

614
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 1: you're looking at three years, right, you make a million,

615
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: you're looking at twenty years, like whatever. So there's tremendous

616
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 1: conversation at the sentencing hearing of how much did he make?

617
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: And the government is saying, well, he said he was

618
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 1: conspiring to make two hundred fifty thousand dollars, and his

619
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: lawyers like, well, the government has no proof of that,

620
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:23,919
Speaker 1: because through this argument, Cliff ends up on the wind

621
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 1: a stand right, interviewed by a test of deposed, interviewed

622
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: by both of the both of the attorneys, and he says,

623
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 1: there's nobody in the world who would have bought six

624
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 1: figures of the stuff. I never knew anybody who's so.

625
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: You're like so, But you're like so, Either you lied

626
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: to the CI, to the Secret service, right, or you're

627
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: lying in this courtroom. Are both? It is my opinion

628
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: that he was telling the truth in the courtroom. There's

629
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: no opportunity to sell a six figure amount of counterfeit

630
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: money in one fell swoop that he did not have

631
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,399
Speaker 1: anybody who he could do that with. That said, he

632
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 1: was meeting with members of the Eastern European mafia as

633
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 1: he toward the end, as he's like going upward in

634
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: the underworld trajectory and like making accomplishments and getting more

635
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: and more trusted he's starting to meet people in the

636
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 1: mafia who can help to talking about they didn't actually

637
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: do anything, but talking about how we can all go

638
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: even further upward or downward. So Cliff is arguing, I didn't.

639
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: That was all just to get this guy to continue

640
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 1: to do what I needed him to do. The judge

641
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: is like, I think you just perjured yourself. He did

642
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 1: not in my belief, but the judge believes he did.

643
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:55,800
Speaker 1: And then judge is like, I could sentence you to

644
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: more time for perjuring yourself, right on top of your

645
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 1: counterfeit time, but he doesn't, right, which is shocking to

646
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: me because and the reason why it's shocking is because

647
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: you know that people who end up in those courtrooms

648
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: in front of white judges, whether they have done the

649
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,399
Speaker 1: crime or not, usually the book is thrown at them.

650
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: Usually you'll hear from them two three decades. So the

651
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: idea later, so the idea that this judge is just like,

652
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: I could get you for perjury, but I won't because

653
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: I have the power to either pull the trigger either way.

654
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: He doesn't impose a fine. No, so he gets fifteen months, yeah,

655
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 1: serves twelve. I'm reading this and I'm saying he's going

656
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,280
Speaker 1: to get out in a year. He's going to change

657
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 1: his life. He tries, he tries. He says, if I

658
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 1: return to New York, I know all the criminal underworld

659
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 1: stuff there. I'm gonna go to Chicago right now, let

660
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: me go back just one moment, right because, as we said,

661
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 1: his brother talked to mitigate his situation, right, to mitigate

662
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: his potential time in prison. Cliff had several people he

663
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,879
Speaker 1: worked with. He had ten to fifteen people who were

664
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 1: basically like low level runners, like come by on Saturday,

665
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 1: I give you a thousand fake dollars. You got to

666
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: go out during the week and spend it and come

667
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: back the next Saturday with a few hundred real dollars

668
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: and then cut that. So these people were just working

669
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 1: for him. Some of them went to Columbia, some of

670
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:48,720
Speaker 1: them did not. He also knew most of the major

671
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: underworld figures in New York City, all the Fed's magazine

672
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: type people. He's like able to hang out with, all

673
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: of them, had at least met with all almost all

674
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: of them. So when he was arrested, there was a

675
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 1: lot of people who were afraid of like is he

676
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: going to say something? Is he going to mention my name.

677
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: So there is a lot of people walking on eggshells.

678
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: First of all, the Colombia people are like, is he

679
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: going to ruin my life to save his own? But

680
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: then when you talk about the underworld folks, these are

681
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:27,720
Speaker 1: not the sort of people who wait around to see

682
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: if you have said something. They'll go shoot your mother whatever,

683
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 1: just to remind you of like, we're out here, we

684
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 1: know where you, what you care about, We can get

685
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 1: to you. So there was a tremendous amount of stress

686
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,439
Speaker 1: and anxiety, and a lot of people are like, what

687
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 1: is he going to say? Is he going to say anything?

688
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: Didn't say anything. Yeah, if you look at his paperwork,

689
00:44:55,400 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: his two lieutenants talked about each other and him. He

690
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: only talks about what he did. He does not shed

691
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: any light on what anyone else did. He held to

692
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,240
Speaker 1: his code did and you know, there was tremendous pressure

693
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:15,240
Speaker 1: on him to talk, but he held to the street

694
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 1: code that he was taught, even though it wasn't to him.

695
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: Now he comes out a year, which seems like again

696
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: a light sentence for having run a counterfeiting scheme for

697
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: a while, solid six months, a solid six months of

698
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: funneling lots of fake money out into the universe in

699
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 1: multiple cities across the country. So he gets out in

700
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 1: a year that when after he got out, I went

701
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: to Chicago. We sat on his mother's stoop and it's

702
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: been a whole day, many many hours, just talking about

703
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 1: what happened, why, what he did, how it was really

704
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: really interesting and powerful to have that time just sitting

705
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 1: and talking with him. The main thing I remember his

706
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 1: mother saying that his prep school, Milton made him want

707
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: too much too soon. He saw the wealth that these

708
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 1: people had and wanted it for himself and didn't want

709
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:34,839
Speaker 1: to take the long, slow road of working up to it.

710
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: He's like, I wanted now. And that's why I think,

711
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,919
Speaker 1: you know that the school, the Ivy League is part

712
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: of it, because while it gives kids who would not

713
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: normally have an opportunity and avenue a path out right

714
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: of cyclical violence, poverty, all of these things, it also

715
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 1: places them in a world that they can look at

716
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 1: but can't really touch, that they can be, you know,

717
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: next to, but not really a part of. Look, I mean,

718
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: you know, look, I know a lot of people who

719
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 1: went from the hood to Milton and similar schools and

720
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 1: are extraordinary productive people who would never do anything like

721
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 1: that and have become doctors, lawyers, TV producers, any sort

722
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 1: of amazing. So I mean, like these people have led

723
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 1: have had an amazing life path, largely facilitated by going

724
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 1: to an amazing school that maybe they and their family

725
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 1: didn't even know existed before they started trying to apply there.

726
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: But there is a literature of the small group of

727
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: people who went through this this prep school experience and

728
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: still went the wrong path, and tragically he's part of that.

729
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 1: And part of what you're driving toward is after he

730
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 1: got out of prison, he went back into the life.

731
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,359
Speaker 1: I mean, he went into a different life, but it

732
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 1: was still the criminal life. So he moves from counterfeiting,

733
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 1: doesn't go back to it. Instead, he goes into prostitution,

734
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: light or managing strippers, whatever it is that you if

735
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: you have, if you had a mansion or access to

736
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: a mansion, he could show up with twenty gorgeous girls

737
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 1: who would dance, make the party more fun. And you know,

738
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: if you could talk to the girls and you had

739
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 1: enough money, then more things could happen. And so he's

740
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 1: managing the girls, the women in these sexsmish I mean

741
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: like look, you know, I bet some people would say,

742
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: you know, you don't need to be violent to be

743
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:07,839
Speaker 1: a pimp, So I mean, like you're pimping. Yeah, So

744
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:14,359
Speaker 1: he's there, you know, and again this is still dangerous.

745
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 1: Of course, you're dealing with people there. You're dealing with

746
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 1: all different types of people. You talk about one party, this,

747
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 1: guys with guns like these are these are gangsters in

748
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. And so you know, I'm reading

749
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 1: this and I'm thinking to myself, why why Cliff? Why

750
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 1: he was not ever going to be a nine to

751
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 1: five guy. He was never going to fit into a

752
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:48,959
Speaker 1: normal societal path of like you know, clockey in and clock.

753
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 1: That's just he could just never It just wasn't he

754
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: just that wasn't And you know, if if he could

755
00:49:55,600 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 1: have done something above ground and entrepreneurial, I would have

756
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: been great for him, right, But he remained so attracted

757
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: to the fast money, the power, the speed, the adrenaline

758
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 1: of the underworld. And after a while, the mobile strip

759
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 1: club sort of situation becomes a brick and mortar shot.

760
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 1: I gotta I gotta club in the hoodhood of Chicago

761
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:43,800
Speaker 1: where shit is going down, And so Cliff eventually gets

762
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 1: killed he got murdered in his nightclub. Somebody who was

763
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:53,760
Speaker 1: angry about something to do with one of the women

764
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 1: came into the club and shot him, and he dies

765
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: in a car at three thirty seven in the morning

766
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: in Chicago, racing to the hospital. Doesn't make it to

767
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: the hospital, thirty eight super young. What do you think

768
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 1: like when he finally does die? I mean, because again

769
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,839
Speaker 1: we started off by saying, there's only two paths that

770
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:26,879
Speaker 1: really happen when you are attracted to the streets. You're

771
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 1: in prison, which he experienced and frankly got a slap

772
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 1: on the wrist, yeah, or you get killed. Yeah. And

773
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: he had still these friends that were around him, his

774
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 1: family after he passes. What do they think? How do

775
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 1: they feel? I mean, you know, the best I can

776
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: tell you is that there's tremendous sadness. Because people people

777
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 1: saw him as a bit of a tragic story. They

778
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 1: liked him. They also understood that he could be difficult.

779
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 1: It was not unusual to spend a night with him

780
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: and part of the night be like, oh my god,

781
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,879
Speaker 1: you're so funny, You're so fun and then oh my god,

782
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 1: you're so annoying, and oh my god, why are you

783
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 1: going out in the parking lot to have a fist

784
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: bite with one of the other people, Like what you

785
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 1: is that guy that might punch somebody at the party

786
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 1: in the vase and you know, there's so you know,

787
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 1: he was a person who was really smart, had a

788
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 1: lot of energy, was a visionary, was a leader, but

789
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 1: was all it was charismatic, but was also fearless in

790
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 1: a way that led him astray and led him way

791
00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: off the path. And it's it's it's sad. You know,

792
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 1: it's a life that could have been lived in an

793
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:11,399
Speaker 1: entirely different way, right, And you know, it's it's it's

794
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 1: too bad that his desire for power and speed and

795
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 1: adrenaline and to be part of this underworld overcame whatever

796
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: good judgment there was in there, because he's like, you know,

797
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:31,720
Speaker 1: when I saw the opportunities, the academy in me went silent.

798
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 1: And I think it did and it didn't. I mean, surely,

799
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: you know we all had ethics class um, you know,

800
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 1: where we talked about what's right and wrong, and you know,

801
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: we talked about what's right and wrong at Milton all

802
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 1: the time. I think he was aware of what he

803
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 1: was doing. But you know, also he talked about with counterfeiting,

804
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 1: You don't he he felt like you're getting over on

805
00:53:55,960 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 1: somebody's It didn't feel like the fumbing his nose at

806
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 1: the systems, at the system, at the like he You know,

807
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 1: we we all nowadays recognize the evil and the greed

808
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 1: associated with capitalism. Will you hear it more now in

809
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: mainstream probably than than you have, right the greed is

810
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 1: good era of the Gordon Geckos in the eighties and

811
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:25,240
Speaker 1: Wall Street and coming in and wanting that fast, rich life.

812
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: But you know you have It's like, is he a

813
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 1: cautionary tale? Is he? Is? He? But you're in a

814
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: way by writing about him, you've given him the notoriety

815
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: that a part of the notoriety that he wanted. Sure,

816
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 1: I guess. I mean he said that he wanted to

817
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 1: be written about in Rolling Stone, and this is part

818
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 1: of why he was like, you know, the average job

819
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:55,240
Speaker 1: is not for me. I got to do something different,

820
00:54:56,239 --> 00:55:00,319
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, like I really liked him, Yeah,

821
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 1: you know, I felt like I knew him pretty well.

822
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 1: You know, you feel bad for somebody who is led

823
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 1: astray basically by what he sees in the world, and

824
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 1: you know so much, especially so much for us is

825
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,439
Speaker 1: is what we see. We believe we can do what

826
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 1: we see, right, especially as young people, like do you

827
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:30,359
Speaker 1: see these professions among the adults around you? Gravitate toward

828
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 1: those you don't usually gravitate toward things you don't see,

829
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 1: that you don't know is a possibility. And he saw

830
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 1: the hustlers. They clearly stood out in that world, and

831
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:44,799
Speaker 1: he wanted to be one of them. I mean, like

832
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 1: one thing that we haven't talked about. His father was

833
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 1: a cop, so he was like I. So he took

834
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 1: that to be like, I know my way around the

835
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:54,879
Speaker 1: streets because my dad was a cop and my brother

836
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:57,759
Speaker 1: was a criminal. But he can't fall into the category

837
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 1: of because I didn't see it, I couldn't be it.

838
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: Because he did see other black models. He wasn't the

839
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 1: only kid at Milton that looked like him or was

840
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:08,920
Speaker 1: over was from where he was from, dude, know what

841
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:10,799
Speaker 1: I'm saying. So that's like, you know, one thing we

842
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 1: had there was he was there. There was maybe one

843
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 1: black teacher the entire time that he was there, maybe

844
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 1: two two, maybe two I'm now thinking maybe two, and

845
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: one of them was an art teacher, Which is not

846
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 1: to denigrate that but to say that we are expected

847
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 1: to be artful, right, we are expected to be good

848
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 1: when it comes to making art and being culture. But

849
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 1: in math and science, in these other disciplines. Yeah, there

850
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 1: was one person that I'm recalling who was black, So

851
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 1: so there weren't really you know, now a lot of

852
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:58,880
Speaker 1: these schools make sure there is a black, brown Asian

853
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 1: people in administration, in teaching, so students are not not

854
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 1: Diversity is not just put a bunch of black and brown. No,

855
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: it's creating students, the infrastructure and the scaffolding around it, right, Yeah,

856
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 1: there has to be the leadership as well, so students

857
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 1: see black and brown and Asian people in leadership, right.

858
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 1: We they weren't thinking about things that deep. Yeah, at

859
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 1: that point in history, we were't thinking of it. They didn't.

860
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 1: I don't think they realized these students also need black

861
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 1: people in leadership around them. Um, we didn't. You know,

862
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 1: was there? You know, was there ever a moment as

863
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: you're writing this and you're doing all of these interviews

864
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: and you're collecting this information that you're like, at this moment,

865
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 1: he could have gone the other way to get out

866
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 1: of all, to get out of it like that, that

867
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 1: this was the pinnacle moment because he wasn't because you said,

868
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 1: let us strain. I'm like, he led himself. He led himself, absolutely,

869
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 1: he led himself. I mean, you know, he was enamored

870
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 1: with the vision of the hustler, and he followed that.

871
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 1: He's steadfast at doing this throughout the time that he's

872
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:13,160
Speaker 1: doing this. At the beginning, there's people around him who

873
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 1: were like, Okay, this is a crazy way of making money.

874
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: Cliffs always got an idea, He's always running a hustle

875
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 1: scam like cool. And as time goes on, people are like, oh,

876
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 1: you're still doing that. Shouldn't you stop doing that? And

877
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: as time goes on, more and more people are like, yo,

878
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 1: you need to stop doing that. And people are kind

879
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 1: of yelling it at him, like you need to stop

880
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 1: doing that. You are like barreling down the wrong path.

881
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: And people start removing themselves from his presence as like,

882
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 1: I don't want to be around you when it goes

883
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 1: down because it's inevitable. And even still, and you know,

884
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,840
Speaker 1: there's this there's this other detail as well, because he

885
00:58:53,960 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: was cool with the other criminal gangs around Harlem, so

886
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 1: he knew that everybody in the hood knew that he

887
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 1: was a counterfeiter, and they would know a counterfeitter can't

888
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 1: put money in the bank, so there must be a

889
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 1: bunch of real and fake money in his apartment. So

890
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 1: he knew if they figure out where I live, they

891
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 1: might burst in and robby yeah, and kill me. So

892
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 1: as as as the crime is coming to an end,

893
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 1: unbeknownst to him, his level of anxiety is going up

894
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 1: because he's like, somebody from the street might break in

895
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 1: here and rob us any day. So he was thankful that.

896
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 1: He was thankful when it was the cops. When the

897
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 1: cops come in, he doesn't know it's the cops, so

898
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 1: he rushes at them. They tackle him and get him

899
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 1: down on the ground, and when he realizes, oh, it's

900
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:58,920
Speaker 1: the cops, he thinks, thank god it's the cops, because

901
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 1: if it had been the street, I'd be dead right,

902
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:04,440
Speaker 1: you know. He was like, I don't know how long

903
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to prison for, but I know

904
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 1: I can handle prison. He was confident that he could

905
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 1: handle prison. So he's like, Okay, let's do it. Let's go.

906
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 1: How is the confidence I do not have. I am

907
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:24,200
Speaker 1: confident that you could not confident you can handle not

908
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 1: in the least. Oh my god, you know, um, he

909
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 1: was an extraordinary person. Yeah, and you know he chose

910
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 1: actively chose this crazy life path for himself. You know,

911
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:46,120
Speaker 1: it's almost like, you know, you show you create this

912
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 1: character and you show them a path. Just open a

913
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:56,840
Speaker 1: little door. You know that copier makes perfect copies of anything. Really,

914
01:00:57,200 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 1: I'll be the judge of that. He puts down a

915
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:04,919
Speaker 1: dog and it comes back perfectly, and after that he's

916
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 1: just off to the races. In that one moment, he

917
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 1: becomes a professional counterfeitter in his mind and in his spirit.

918
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 1: He sits there that first night and makes ten thousand

919
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 1: dollars and he never looks back. And it's it's sad

920
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 1: to see the up and down and up and down

921
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 1: of this life and how the world constantly gave him

922
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 1: chances and he just knocked them away. That I mean

923
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 1: that to me is the extraordinary end of this story,

924
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:46,040
Speaker 1: is that too many people, particularly black people, particularly black men,

925
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 1: are not given a myriad of chances. And so a

926
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:55,640
Speaker 1: part of me is like fascinating character, but also wanting

927
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:58,440
Speaker 1: to shake the shit out of him, like you just

928
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 1: batted away chances and opportunities to live an entirely to

929
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 1: live a but to also to live an entirely different life.

930
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:12,360
Speaker 1: They told him. They told him he can't say that

931
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 1: he didn't hear. You need to stop, They told him.

932
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:23,760
Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Dear friends on woke

933
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 1: f I hope that you enjoyed this little holiday bonus

934
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:31,120
Speaker 1: special on Torrey's new book, The Ivy League Counterfeiter. You

935
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 1: can get it at scribbed now. As always, dear friends,

936
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 1: power to the people and to all the people. Power,

937
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:41,439
Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck.