WEBVTT - Interview With Saru Jayaraman: Masters in Business (Audio) 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:07.560 This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:11.240 This week on the podcast, we have a special guest, 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:15.680 and actually an unusual and interesting guest. Her name is 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:21.439 Saru Jairamin. She's got a fascinating background both as an 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:27.400 educator and an attorney. She's been really focusing on restaurant 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:33.040 labor relations and the way we treat UH employees who 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:37.400 basically prepare and service food when we go out to eat. 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.919 And this began after nine eleven when a number of 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:44.320 family members of workers who were at Windows in the 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:48.480 world UH perished in the terrorist attack, and that led 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:52.720 her down a path of exploring all sorts of things 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:57.240 related to the restaurant industry. She has been working with 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:04.120 restaurateurs such as Danny Meyer, helping to create a fairer 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:08.600 workplace for employees UH. And she's really very much influenced 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:13.440 the latest movement in dining out, which is the end 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:18.280 of tipping, replacing tipping with a flat salary and building 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:23.280 UH the cost of service into the meal as opposed 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:27.679 to leaving it an option for for diners. And some 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:30.360 people say they really like this. There are a lot 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:32.480 of folks who don't like the pressure of tipping. Don't 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:36.039 like feeling like they're obligated to overtip or to what 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.720 have you. They want to pay for a service and 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:43.039 and know exactly what it's gonna cost beforehand. She has 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:46.600 been one of the thinkers at the forefront of this movement, 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:51.160 and a number of restaurants have adopted this idea as 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:53.960 a way to just let people know exactly what their 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:56.600 meal is going to cost. UH. The conversation range far 0:01:56.640 --> 0:02:00.080 and wide. I think it's really a fascinating subject, and 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:04.240 I think you'll enjoy hearing more so. Without any further ado, 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:11.840 my conversation with saru Jaya Raman. This is Master's in 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:16.520 Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:21.440 today is saru Ja Rahman. She is the co director 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:24.920 of the Restaurant Opportunity Center and the director of the 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:29.240 Food Labor Research Center at u C. Berkeley. She's also 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:32.600 the creator of a delightful app, The Diner's Guide to 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:36.240 Ethical Eating. A little background on Saru. She went to 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.679 undergraduate u C. L A, where she studied policy and 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:44.919 international development. Studies that took her to Harvard and the 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:48.400 John F. Kennedy School of Government, where She graduated with 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:53.000 a master's in public policy before going to Yale Law School. 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:59.920 Her specialty these days is restaurant labor employment. SARU, Welcome 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:03.320 to Bloomberg. Great, great to be here. So let's talk 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:07.600 a little bit about your backgrounds. Following nine eleven, the 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:12.160 World Trade Center is destroyed. Most of the employees at 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:14.880 Windows on the World, which were on the top floor, 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:18.720 essentially everybody who made it to work that morning perished 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:23.079 in the uh in the terrorist attack. How did that 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:29.160 evolve into advocacy for restaurant workers. Yeah, so on that morning, 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:31.760 seventy three workers actually died at Windows on the World, 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:35.840 and about workers lost their jobs, and about thirteen thousand 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.160 restaurant workers lost their jobs in the months and weeks 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.640 that followed the tragedy. And so I worked with one 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:43.920 of the former waiters that Windows on the World, a 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:46.600 guy named Fak mom Do, and we started the organization 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:49.080 initially as a relief center to help all of these 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:51.080 thousands of restaurant workers in New York get back on 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:55.600 their feet, especially the Windows workers. But um, because this 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:58.120 isn't one of the largest and fastest growing industries, and 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.320 because actually there is no union in this industry, there's 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:03.640 very little support for these workers. The minute we opened 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:06.520 our doors, we started getting cries for help from workers 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:08.560 all over the city and then all over the country, 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:11.480 and then employers and consumers, and it just kept growing. 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:14.760 So I waited my way through college and grad school. 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:18.760 I attended barn did shore chefs, and and knowing that 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:21.839 that wasn't my career, I kind of shrugged and said 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:26.000 laughed at what a horrific industry it is. But really 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:29.080 there are some horror stories in the restaurant industry. Did 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:31.800 you you worked as a as a waitress in school? 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:34.480 I actually didn't. You know, that's kind of one of 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:39.280 the incredible discoveries. Actually doing research for the book, you know, 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:42.160 I went back and traced my family's origins in the 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:45.160 restaurant industry, and you know, my family actually were owners 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.880 of a restaurant, worked in restaurant. Grandfather great grandfather in 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.680 South India owned a restaurant for decades and decades and 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:56.039 decades and employed lots and lots of people. Um, but 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:58.239 I never worked in a restaurant until we actually opened 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:01.560 our own restaurants through Rock, so learned a lot from 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:04.200 the workers. The minute after nine eleven was thrown together 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:06.440 with these workers and really tried to do something to 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:10.440 change this, and it's a really tough business. The status 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:15.240 of all new restaurants closed within two years. So the 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:20.320 question is, what can you do to make restaurants given 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:25.240 how terrible a tract record, they tend to have a 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:29.080 better place to to work. Well. The truth is that, yes, 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:31.480 it is true that lots of new restaurants failed, but 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:35.520 the numbers show that actually the number of new restaurants 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:40.640 that succeed and stay open um far exceeds that. Because 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:44.119 it is still the second largest and absolute fastest growing 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:47.200 sector of the U. S economy, in the largest sector 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:49.719 of the US economy. That's amazing. It's amazing. It's eleven 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.440 million workers. One in twelve Americans works in this industry. 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:54.320 One and two of us have worked in this industry 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:56.880 in our lifetime. So it's not like it's an industry 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:00.400 that's going anywhere or is tiny or small. And there 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:02.560 are plenty of restaurants, many of whom I profile in 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:04.640 the book, that have shown that you actually can treat 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.159 your workers well, pay them well, and stay in business 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:09.839 for a really long time. Let's talk a little bit 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:13.400 though about the app you created the Diners Guide to 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:16.600 Ethical Eating tell us about that. So for years people 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:18.760 would say, well, we know that things are so bad, 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:20.520 where can we eat? What can we do? How can 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:24.279 we support? And so we started actually doing research and 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.000 doing research on the hundred and fifty most popular chains 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.920 in America and every year giving them ratings on issues 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:32.960 of wages and benefits and promotions, and then also rating 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:35.800 restaurants that we're trying to work with us to do better. 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.919 And so now the app includes ratings of the hund 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:42.719 fifty most popular restaurants in America, mostly chains, and also 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:45.560 a hundred and fifty other restaurants that are doing it right, 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.640 and we give awards to restaurants that provide good wages 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:51.040 and good working conditions. So it uses a geolocator to 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:52.960 see where you are and tells you how the restaurants 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.640 around you are faring on these issues. Now, there aren't 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:57.960 enough restaurants in America that are getting awards for you 0:06:58.000 --> 0:06:59.920 to only eat in those restaurants. So the app was 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.880 never meant to tell you eat here, don't eat here. Rather, 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:04.720 it's a tool for you to be able to communicate 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:07.560 your values wherever you do end up eating out is 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:11.040 this significantly downloaded or a lot of people using Yeah. Actually, 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:13.400 when we first put it out, Mark Bittman wrote about 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:15.600 it in the New York Times, you know, great food writer, 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:18.840 and several hundred thousand people downloaded it in the first 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:21.400 day when he wrote about it. And it's because people, 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:23.640 i think, really want to know. How is this restaurant 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:26.480 treating its workers? Do they offer paid sick days? Which, 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:29.400 by the way, these workers don't have a single paid 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:31.880 sick day. So most that was the most I'm sorry 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:33.720 to interrupt, that was the most We're going to get 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:37.200 to that. That was the most horrifying stat in the book. 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:39.800 Most of us just close our eyes and don't want 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.200 to know. But some of these stats, if you want 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.560 to stay healthy, you have to know. And it's just 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:49.000 it's just terrible. So in the last minute we have 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:52.720 in the segment you talk about the other n r A, 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:57.320 let's discuss that. So it's not the National Rifle. This 0:07:57.400 --> 0:08:01.480 is the National Restaurant Association. Yes, what's your relationship with them? 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.640 And how helpful or how much of an impediment are 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:08.040 they too improving labor conditions? Well, they really don't like us. 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:13.280 They've been they represent the Fortune five hundred chains, the 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:17.280 Olive gardens, and the Taco Bells and McDonald's, and they've 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:20.120 been lobbying to keep wages as low as two dollars 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:22.760 and thirteen cents an hour for decades and decades. In fact, 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:25.480 that is the current federal minimum wage for tipped workers. 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:27.840 And in doing research for this book, find come to 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.080 find that their power doesn't make date back twenty or 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.800 thirty years. It date back a hundred and fifty years 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:36.120 to the emancipation of this is tipped at McDonald's or 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.920 Taco Bell. Nobody's tipped at McDonald's or Taco Bell. But 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:41.280 they've managed to keep the wage even for those workers 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:44.480 as low as seven dollars and which is the national 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:48.080 minimum wage, which is really way behind inflation. If it 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:49.440 had gone up with in place, you would be at 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:53.080 eighteen dollars. That's amazing. I'm Barry rid Halts. You're listening 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:56.400 to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My special guests 0:08:56.440 --> 0:08:59.600 this week is sarru Ja Rahman, and we're talking about 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:03.439 the strong industry. Uh And one of the subjects that 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:06.240 came up was an op ed that you had written 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:10.160 in The New York Times, sort of misleadingly headlined why 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:13.559 tipping is wrong. So, so let's jump right into this, 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:17.679 what's the problem with tipping. It's actually not the problem 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:20.800 with tipping. It's the fact that this industry, the restaurant industry, 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.800 has used tipping as a way to not pay their 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:26.720 own workers. So turns out tipping didn't originate in the States. 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.320 That originated in the feudal homes of Europe. And when 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:31.720 it came to the States, there was actually a massive 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:35.199 anti tipping movement, so strong that six states past bands 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:38.120 on tipping. Really, that's fascinating. Now that's kind of changed 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:41.760 in Europe seems to be going away. It was gone. 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:43.960 I mean, that was the turn of the nineteenth century, 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:46.440 and that movement that started in the States spread to 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:49.400 Europe and succeeded in Europe, which is why there's no 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:52.120 tipping in Europe or very little here in the States. 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:55.199 The restaurant industry actually squashed that movement and demanded the 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:57.520 right to hire newly freed slaves this is right around 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:00.200 the time of emancipation and not pay the many thing 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:02.960 and let them live on customer tips. And that's actually 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:05.720 how the very first minimum wage law in the United States, 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:08.040 which was part of the new deal in eight said 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:11.000 you can get the minimum wage as a tipped worker 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:13.839 either through your wages or through tips, which gave tipped 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:16.400 workers the right to a zero dollar minimum wage. And 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.120 we've gone from a zero dollar minimum wage in ninety 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:21.520 eight to a whopping two dollars and thirteen cents an hour, 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:23.640 which is the current federal minimum wage for workers who 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:27.120 earned tips. And over that one hundred year period, the 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:29.719 Restaurant Association has said, it's okay, we don't need to 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:31.800 pay these workers and make a ton of money and tips. 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:34.560 We don't have to actually give them a wage. They 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.640 describe a white guy working at a fancy, fine dining stagehouse, 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.000 when in fact, so many of these workers are women 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:42.360 who work at Eyehop and Applebee's and suffer from three 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:44.000 times the poverty rate of the rest of the U 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:46.800 S workforce, make very little money and tips, and suffer 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:50.400 from the worst sexual harassment of any industry. You can 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.480 detail some in the book. So let me push back. 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.160 Let me take the other side of the argument. Look, 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:58.319 we open a restaurant, we don't know how well it's 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.240 gonna do. We hire a bunch of people, hopefully they're 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:05.960 pretty good. If the restaurant takes a while to be discovered, Well, 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:09.319 we don't have a huge overhead in labor. We're all 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:11.920 kind of suffering. We're running out of deficit. The first 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:16.280 few months, the restaurant picks up an audience, it gets popular, 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:20.760 and suddenly everybody's making money. What's wrong with that model? Well, 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:24.079 the thing is that that's the traditional model, the old model, 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:26.000 And that's why the book is called Forked, because there 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:29.080 actually is another way of doing things. California and six 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:32.320 other states actually require that this industry pay a full 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:34.560 minimum wage to their workers and let tips be on 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:36.960 top of that. And there's a full minimum wage. So 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:39.719 you're a waitress at an eye hop in California and 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:43.040 you're making seven, well, actually making nine, which is the 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:47.400 California state minimum wage plus tips. And California actually has 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.240 the largest and fastest scoring restaurant industry in the country. 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:52.360 L A has a larger restaurant industry than New York City, 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.559 Believe it or not. They have higher restaurant sales per capita, 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:58.200 higher job growth in the restaurant industry, higher job growth 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:00.800 among servers, even higher rates of tip ping. We tip 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:03.240 better on the West Coast than in New York or 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:05.760 the forty three states with lower wages for tipped workers. 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.439 So the opposite can actually be said to be true 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.160 that if you have a standard that's set for a 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:14.880 whole state or hopefully the whole country, that requires every restaurant, 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:17.680 like every other industry, to pay the full minimum wage, 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:20.199 you will follow that business model and make it work. 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:25.360 So we've been watching forecasts of Seattle restaurant industry imploading 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:29.040 and actually what's happened when Seattle raised their minimum wage, 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:31.959 which I think is on the way to fifteen, it's 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:38.040 now about eleven um. Their restaurant industry is well, but 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:41.640 you know, I think people get it backwards. The region 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:44.479 is doing really well so they can support more restaurants. 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:48.000 But there's no other way to describe it. The number 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:51.040 of new openings and new priman application that's just trending 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:54.640 straight upwards in Seattle. They don't care about eleven that's frankly, 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.120 it's trending upwards everywhere. This is an industry that's growing 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:01.520 astronomically everywhere. We just made world history last year, becoming 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:04.040 the first nation on Earth in which we're now spending 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:06.360 more money on eating out than we do in the home. 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:08.400 Money on eating food in the home. That's the sign 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:11.040 of a wealthy nation with a lot of disposable well, 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:12.920 not just that, it's a sign of a nation that 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:17.880 even when we're unemployed, we just keep eating out. That's 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:21.400 that's amazing. So let's talk about what the system should 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:25.320 look like. Ideally, what do you replace the two dollar 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.680 minimum wage with? What does everybody in what should everybody 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.000 in a restaurant make? And what should we do about tipping? 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:34.920 So what we're looking at right now are policies that 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:37.280 are moving in lots of states around the country and 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:40.280 in Congress called one Fair wage, getting rid of this 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.400 two tiered wage system, having everybody follow California and the 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.200 seven states that have done this and just let this industry, 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:48.880 like every other industry, pay the full minimum wage. Let 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:50.920 tips be what they're meant to be, which is a 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.560 bonus or a gratuity on top of a wage. It's 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.320 not the way wage itself. Yeah, that makes a lot 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.719 of sense. Um, So will this if we were to 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:03.640 get rid of tipping or increase the minimum wage for 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:07.040 for wait staff, that will that raise the cost of 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:09.679 of going out to eat? No? I live in California, 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:11.720 and I gotta say I spend way more on eating 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:13.400 out here in New York City or in d C, 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:15.800 where the wages two dollars and seventy seven cents an 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:17.840 hour than when I eat at home in California. In 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:19.800 a real estate though, isn't it? You're in a much 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:24.600 higher real estate expense. And I think the cost of 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.400 labor and restaurants is really a small and the cost 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:31.440 of food. It's the real estate and then well the 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:35.760 equipment that everything else. Food prices have risen astronomically over 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.760 the last many years, much faster than wages, way faster 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:43.880 than wages. Last decade, milk over six, meat quadruple exactly, 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.960 and find meat just keeps going up exactly. It's funny 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:49.800 people always ask about cost of food going up with labor, 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:51.960 but you don't ask does cost of food go up 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.240 with food price increases or rental price increases, which, as 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.000 you're right, are much bigger part of a business than labor. 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.800 And the labor that that's really interesting. And what about 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:03.920 the smaller mom and pop stores, can they support a 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:06.240 higher minimum wave? They are actually the ones that are 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:10.200 thriving in California they're thriving. Yeah, and I and even 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:13.000 the chains, I mean, across the board, everybody's doing better 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:14.920 if you look at job growth in these seven states, 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.760 in the forty three states. But maybe the best evidence 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:20.040 of this is the hundred and seventy five restaurants that 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:22.760 have worked with US to form an alternative national restaurant 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:27.000 association called Raise. And they range from chains all the 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:29.080 way down to small mom and pop restaurants around the 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:33.960 country that actually provide livable, even what they call thrivable wages, benefits, 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:37.760 advancement opportunities. And they're doing well, not in spite of 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:39.960 treating their workers will and paying them well, but actually 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:42.600 because they're treating their workers well. They find less turnover, 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:46.240 higher profitability, higher profit productivity. The workers are happy, the 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:50.600 customers are happy, and they've they're thriving as businesses. We 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:54.120 watched Walmart fight an increase in minimum wage for many 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.920 years and then ran into a problem of being unable 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:01.760 to find workers, and then read pining them. They did. 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:05.000 They did two minimum wage raises a dollar last year, 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:07.400 and they're up to ten dollars now, and they're already 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:11.120 showing stigns of a reduced turnover and when you employ 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:14.120 two million people, turnover is a big deal. It's a 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.320 big deal in our industry. To our industry has the 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:18.840 highest rates of turnover of any industry the United States, 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:21.640 and our research shows you can cut your turnover almost 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.880 in half by treating your workers well and paying paying 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:28.040 them well. I'm Barry rid Helts. You're listening to Masters 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:31.160 in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest this week 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:35.680 is Saru J. Rahman. She is the co director of 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:39.240 the Restaurant Opportunity Center and director of the Food Labor 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.680 Research Center at You See Berkeley. She's also the author 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:46.520 of Forked, a New Standard for American Dining. And we've 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:50.440 been discussing the minimum wage and the impact of that 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.640 on the restaurant industry. So let's go back to the 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.880 history of this which you referenced earlier. Why is it 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:01.840 that restaurants can get away with pay so little because 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:05.160 they originally the original tipped workers in this country were 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:10.200 actually former slaves, both restaurant workers and pullman train car borders. 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:14.359 They were. I actually didn't either until we did research 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.760 for the book, and um, this industry, the restaurant industry 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.040 made the argument that they wouldn't be able to survive 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:22.080 if they actually had to pay these workers a wage, 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:25.679 so they basically hired newly freed slaves demanded the right 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:28.040 to pay them nothing. That idea was codified into the 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:30.680 very first minium wage lat Past in nineteen thirty eight, 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:33.120 which gave tipped workers the right to a zero dollar 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:36.080 minum wage. These were mostly black workers, former slaves, and 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:38.400 we've gone from that zero dollar wage to a two 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:42.400 dollar and thirteen cents wage today. Let's for a century, right, 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.320 But stop and think about if you're arguing as a 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:49.040 free market person who doesn't want government regulation, how can 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.879 you say our business model depends on free labor? Exactly, 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:56.119 very very little. I mean honestly, that was the argument 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:59.000 of the cotton industry, right, that they their whole business 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:01.480 model and the economy dependent on free labor, and form 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:04.399 still making the same argument today. It really brings, you know, 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:08.600 bears question of is this sustainable business model? So so 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:11.840 I mentioned some of the stats were really horrifying in 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:15.679 the book. Seven of the ten lowest paying jobs and 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:20.480 the two absolute lowest paying jobs in America are in restaurants. 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:22.479 That's right, And when you combine that with knowing this 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.520 is the largest and fastest growing industry in America. What 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:29.919 you end up with is essentially this industry proliferating the 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:33.480 lowage economy, the low age floor of the entire economy, 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:36.560 and bringing down the floor for the entire nation. UM, 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:38.040 and it's going to be these are the jobs that 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:40.120 are going to be available for our children. I teach 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:42.119 at UC Berkeley, I would say a good third to 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:44.320 a half of my students work in the industry, and 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:47.560 many stay in the industry after college now with a 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:51.040 UC Berkeley degree, because these are the jobs that are available. 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:54.879 That UM is not encouraging if how are you going 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:57.159 to pay student loans on It's hard to pay student 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:59.560 loans on these wages. But I will say the way 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:02.399 we look at these jobs also is not right. You know, 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:05.119 it should be okay for UC Berkeley graduate to go 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:08.639 into this industry because these are skilled professions. These are 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:12.640 very skilled professions, and in other countries like Europe. In Europe, 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:15.439 these are scene Hospitality is a profession. You go to 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.520 school to be a hospitality professional. It's something seen as 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:22.320 very uh you know, skilled. The issue here is not 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:25.239 that these aren't good professions. The issues that they're not 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:28.560 valued as professions, both in terms of pay and benefits. 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:31.199 In terms of even this whole idea that these workers 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:34.160 should rely on the largesse of customers, it detracts from 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:38.400 the professionalism of this industry. So on my most recent vacation, 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.800 I read the non academic version of your book, which 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:47.600 is Kitchen Confidential by Anthony Bourdain's and it's hilarious and 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:53.119 ribald and just you know, also rather are rated. But 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:57.639 it tells essentially the almost the same exact story you 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:02.360 tell from an academic perspective, of how horrific a lot 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:06.119 of the quality is of handling food, how high the 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:11.960 turnover is in restaurants, how waitresses are constantly sexually harassed 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:16.880 both by forget the employees, but by management, and so 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:23.000 the question is what makes this industry such a frat house? 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:26.000 That's why is this this? I mean, in our opinion, 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:28.159 all of our research shows that the real root of 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:31.080 the problem is this two tiered wage system. Because se 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:34.000 of tipped workers who live on that lower wage of 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:36.360 two dollars and thirteen cents, or here in New York 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:38.600 State it's seven dollars, whatever it is in the state, 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:42.679 they rely completely on their tips. Those workers are women 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:45.239 and their women who work at ihop and Applebee's and 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:48.679 basically pay their families on customer tips. And our research 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:51.639 shows that having to rely on tips for your income 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:54.080 not only makes you vulnerable to all kinds of gross 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:57.119 and appropriate behavior from customers, but we also find that 0:20:57.240 --> 0:21:01.640 management actually encourages these workers to dress sexy where tighter clothes, 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:04.280 which show more cleavage, so that they can make more 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:06.800 money and tips. And when you're forced to subject yourself 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.080 to objectification, that makes you vulnerable to coworker and management. 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:13.400 And we're not talking about restaurant chains like Hooters or 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:18.879 restaurants people. We're talking about family restaurants like Denny's and 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:21.600 eye hops and everything. I took my two little girls 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:23.760 to the Chili's. They're three and five years old. It's 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:27.359 a family restaurant, Chilis, And the uniform was all the 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:30.639 servers are women, yes, And the uniform was a tight 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:33.800 T shirt that said fresh across the breasts, a very 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:35.439 tight T shirt. And you have to ask yourself, what 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:38.639 are we selling, because you know it is the chilies 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:41.160 on the olive gardens. But on the other hand, there's 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.920 a whole new segment of this industry called the restaurant, 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:46.919 and Hooters is not the only home that's a thing, 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:50.680 that's a real segment. That Well, there's two other incredibly 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:53.560 fast growing chains in the restaurant segment. It's Hooters, but 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:57.720 it's also Tilted Kilt and Twin Peaks, one of the 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:00.560 fastest growing chains in America. Yeah, I thought you were 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:03.560 gonna say Wild Wings that does something very similar. So 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:07.679 the other two restaurants are Tilted Kilt and Tilted Kilt. Okay, 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:10.280 I can't say I heard of that, and Twin Peaks, 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:12.920 which you know, you just what are we selling? They're 0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:17.440 not referring to the television, I got it. That's that's astonishing. 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:21.600 My special guest today is Saru J. Rahman, and she 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:26.200 is the director at you See Berkeley of the Food 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:29.960 Food Labor Research Center and author of Fork to New 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:33.480 Standard for American Dining. And let's jump right into the 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:38.920 really disgusting, horrifying parts of your book. This quote just 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:42.000 took me back on my heels. The CDC reports that 0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:46.720 as many as of all neuro virus and that's better 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:52.400 known as the stomach flu trace back to sick restaurant workers. Now, 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:56.040 that is both horrifying and it raises the obvious question. 0:22:56.840 --> 0:23:02.560 People are coming into work sick handling food. That's all. Well. 0:23:03.520 --> 0:23:06.199 Workers in this industry nationally do not have a single 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:10.160 paid sick day, and two thirds report cooking, preparing and 0:23:10.200 --> 0:23:12.920 serving our food when they're ellen. We have heard so 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:15.359 many stories over the years, workers working with typhoid fever, 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:18.440 working workers working with hepatitis. I talk a lot about 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:21.160 Olive Garden. You know, Olive Garden got an award from 0:23:21.160 --> 0:23:24.520 Michelle Obama for being you know, great for kids, healthy 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:28.080 for kids because they had cares with the breadsticks. Uh, 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:33.920 they serve salad. That's right. Because the same time they 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:37.080 got the award from Michelle Obama, a worker in a Fayetteville, 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:40.720 North Carolina restaurant was forced to work with hepatitis A. 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:43.720 Three thousand people had to get tested by the county 0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:47.040 southed the restaurant, and one class action. That same year, 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:49.720 there were two neurovirus outbreaks in alive gardens in Indiana 0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:53.520 and Illinois. I mean, it is, it's an epidemic. It is, 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:56.800 it is a source of epidemics, and it's a public 0:23:56.840 --> 0:24:00.800 health disaster. Now, these restaurants really must not be happy 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:04.119 with you when you publicize the stuff. But this is 0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:07.720 all This isn't stuff you're digging in the stacks that yeah, 0:24:07.760 --> 0:24:12.359 this is front page, Yeah, public information. CDC also reports 0:24:12.640 --> 0:24:15.119 a good one in ten workers are currently working with 0:24:15.200 --> 0:24:19.359 extreme diarrhea and vomiting, not as opposed to regulate exactly 0:24:19.640 --> 0:24:24.879 on the job jectile exactly healthy in a restaurant and 0:24:25.119 --> 0:24:29.560 so no paid. And if they're sick and they don't 0:24:29.560 --> 0:24:32.360 want to come in, they're told they're fired exactly, and 0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:35.560 even when the managers know they're ill, exactly. And again, 0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:38.320 this whole system of forcing these workers to live for 0:24:38.359 --> 0:24:40.520 the most part off their tips not paying them a 0:24:40.560 --> 0:24:43.440 wage means that the only way to actually get your 0:24:43.600 --> 0:24:46.480 wages is to go to work and work for tips, 0:24:46.600 --> 0:24:50.600 even when you've got hepatitis A. That's unbelievable. All right. 0:24:50.640 --> 0:24:53.560 So let's talk a bit about promotions, which is another 0:24:53.640 --> 0:24:57.879 way you measure different restaurants and how well they treat um, 0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:02.520 how well they treat their employees, what what typically is 0:25:02.600 --> 0:25:05.760 the standard practice and what do you think is the 0:25:05.800 --> 0:25:09.480 preferred or or or standard. There's a myth in this 0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:11.679 industry that you can start as a dishwasher and own 0:25:11.760 --> 0:25:15.320 your own restaurant. Will Sixty of the six or seven 0:25:15.359 --> 0:25:18.680 thousand workers we've surveyed nationally have said they've never received 0:25:18.720 --> 0:25:21.359 a raise or a promotion. And all the turnover in 0:25:21.359 --> 0:25:24.200 this industry isn't actually people going through this industry to 0:25:24.320 --> 0:25:27.480 something else. It's people moving from restaurant to restaurant to restaurant, 0:25:27.680 --> 0:25:30.359 just looking for better opportunities to feed their families. Because 0:25:30.359 --> 0:25:32.600 a lot of these eleven million workers actually take a 0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:35.960 lot of pride in their work. They really enjoy hospitality, 0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:37.840 but they want to move up, and they're generally no 0:25:37.960 --> 0:25:40.480 opportunities to move on. They don't get a promotion internally, 0:25:40.560 --> 0:25:42.800 So if you go to another restaurant acrost the stry, 0:25:42.880 --> 0:25:45.320 maybe you can have a shot at you're applying for 0:25:45.480 --> 0:25:47.800 essentially a better job than what you have exactly, and 0:25:48.119 --> 0:25:51.680 a lot of unfortunately, the lack of mobility is very 0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:53.960 very much due to race and gender. We find that 0:25:54.160 --> 0:25:55.960 people of color are not able to get into the 0:25:56.119 --> 0:25:58.240 very best jobs in the industry, which our server and 0:25:58.280 --> 0:26:02.160 bartending positions and very fine eye restaurants. Women are often 0:26:02.200 --> 0:26:04.919 blocked from those positions. We did what's called matchpair audit 0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:07.400 testing studies where we sent in hundreds of white people 0:26:07.440 --> 0:26:09.840 and people of color, women and men into very fine 0:26:09.840 --> 0:26:12.840 dining restaurants in four cities and found that people of 0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:14.960 color had or white people had twice the chance of 0:26:14.960 --> 0:26:16.720 a person of color, even when the person of colored 0:26:16.760 --> 0:26:19.560 a better resume at getting the best job, and that 0:26:19.680 --> 0:26:23.000 women were often blatantly told we don't hire women here 0:26:23.040 --> 0:26:25.919 if it's a very mind dining restaurant. Yes, even today, 0:26:25.920 --> 0:26:30.560 So I'm naive. And here in Manhattan, you go into 0:26:30.600 --> 0:26:35.000 a restaurant waiters, bartenders, servers, whatever, except for like the 0:26:35.080 --> 0:26:37.320 hundred year old steakhouses where the guys who have been 0:26:37.359 --> 0:26:40.760 working there for fifty years and no one serving food 0:26:40.800 --> 0:26:45.240 is under sixty. Um, it's pretty well integrated here in 0:26:45.280 --> 0:26:48.120 New York City, Or am I looking at things from 0:26:48.160 --> 0:26:53.199 a naive perspective. Unfortunately it's really segregated here in New 0:26:53.280 --> 0:26:56.160 York City, believe it or not. Maybe as the average customer, 0:26:56.240 --> 0:26:59.600 you don't know who's in what position, but most servers 0:26:59.640 --> 0:27:02.000 in very refine dining restaurants in New York City are 0:27:02.040 --> 0:27:06.600 white men. I mean just statistically, yeah. And the finest dining, 0:27:06.680 --> 0:27:09.280 the finer it is. The more you're talking about waiters 0:27:09.280 --> 0:27:11.680 and captains and bartenders and very fine dining. The more 0:27:11.720 --> 0:27:13.840 likely it's going to be white men. Women are not 0:27:13.920 --> 0:27:16.040 allowed to work the very best shifts in these fine 0:27:16.080 --> 0:27:18.880 dining restaurants. People of color have a very hard time 0:27:18.920 --> 0:27:22.159 getting into these jobs just statistically. In fact, there's a 0:27:22.240 --> 0:27:25.160 medium wage differential of four dollars an hour between white 0:27:25.160 --> 0:27:26.960 workers and workers of color. So you'll see people of 0:27:27.000 --> 0:27:29.560 colored on the dining floor, but they'll be bussers and runners. 0:27:30.040 --> 0:27:33.000 They won't be the server who interacts with you. Now 0:27:33.040 --> 0:27:37.440 that I think about it, Um, you're probably right, although 0:27:37.480 --> 0:27:41.000 I'll not mention that some of the funk of your 0:27:41.160 --> 0:27:46.879 bars and and pubs and stuff. It's pretty of yes, 0:27:47.000 --> 0:27:49.119 funk your bars, you tend to make less money and 0:27:49.160 --> 0:27:53.200 tips then you would at a really fine dining good steakhouses. 0:27:53.240 --> 0:27:56.720 The people pulling in five right, and those are largely 0:27:56.720 --> 0:27:59.480 white guys. Um, I will say, there are some who 0:27:59.520 --> 0:28:02.120 do it really well. So Tom Clickio here in New 0:28:02.160 --> 0:28:06.359 York what restaurants he owns all the craft the craft restaurants, 0:28:06.520 --> 0:28:10.399 so Craft Steak, you know, Witchcraft, all these different craft restaurants. 0:28:10.560 --> 0:28:12.320 As you might know, he's also the star of top 0:28:12.400 --> 0:28:16.119 Chef um and he's actually known in this industry for 0:28:16.240 --> 0:28:21.119 really having people of color in all levels management, servers, bartenders. UM. 0:28:21.280 --> 0:28:24.359 Another really fabulous example is Andy Shalal who owns bus 0:28:24.359 --> 0:28:27.119 Boys and Poets and Eatonville, all of this chain of 0:28:27.160 --> 0:28:31.439 restaurants in Washington, d C. Really great restaurants, casual, fine dining, 0:28:31.720 --> 0:28:34.239 people of color, women in all positions. So there are 0:28:34.240 --> 0:28:36.680 some really stand out examples that I provide in the 0:28:36.720 --> 0:28:39.960 book UM in terms of racial diversity. Danny Meyer also 0:28:40.000 --> 0:28:41.640 actually really does it well. He has a lot of 0:28:41.640 --> 0:28:43.920 people of color on the dining floor. So for those 0:28:43.920 --> 0:28:46.000 people who are outside of Manhattan, if you don't know 0:28:46.040 --> 0:28:51.040 Gramercy Tavern or Union Square Cafe, the moderns, shake Shock 0:28:51.200 --> 0:28:55.000 is now taking over the world and UM in New York. 0:28:55.000 --> 0:28:57.680 You go to Brian Park, their lines around the block 0:28:58.200 --> 0:29:00.360 and they seem to be opening up restaurant at a 0:29:00.400 --> 0:29:04.680 fast and furious space. Even his fast food chains. Does 0:29:04.720 --> 0:29:08.240 he maintain that same Oh yeah, shake Shock UM actually 0:29:08.280 --> 0:29:11.120 pays higher than almost any other There are only a 0:29:11.160 --> 0:29:14.120 few chains in and out. Burger on the West coast 0:29:14.160 --> 0:29:18.200 and in Texas is the highest paying chain in the country. Really, uh, 0:29:18.240 --> 0:29:21.520 and then shake Shock. So let's break this down by 0:29:21.560 --> 0:29:24.840 restaurants because I have down a couple of really interesting 0:29:25.440 --> 0:29:29.440 broad restaurant um types, fine dining, Mexican burgers and coffee. 0:29:29.720 --> 0:29:33.120 Since we started with burgers, let's talk about burgers. So 0:29:33.480 --> 0:29:38.640 you mentioned In and Out Burger, right, California staple Um 0:29:38.680 --> 0:29:43.120 and Shake Shock. To me, these are all fast food burgers, 0:29:43.160 --> 0:29:47.880 but these are the two amongst the best quality food burgers. 0:29:48.200 --> 0:29:51.080 You're telling me everything else they do is also that's right. 0:29:51.160 --> 0:29:53.600 I mean In and Out has provided livable wages. I'm 0:29:53.600 --> 0:29:57.040 talking fifteen and all really since the beginning. They provide 0:29:57.040 --> 0:30:00.480 paid sick days, they provide benefits, opportunities for advancement. They've 0:30:00.520 --> 0:30:04.080 just done it differently, and they're growing and they're really successful. 0:30:04.160 --> 0:30:06.600 And come on, nobody could deny that Shake Shack is 0:30:06.760 --> 0:30:11.360 doing really well fantastic paying workers a livable wage. Um. 0:30:11.360 --> 0:30:14.000 Five Guys was the other one that I thought was 0:30:14.080 --> 0:30:16.920 a good burger. I don't know how they're they're staffing, yeah, 0:30:16.960 --> 0:30:20.000 I mean, I think it varies in different regions, but 0:30:20.120 --> 0:30:23.120 we have found several five Guys restaurants that actually want 0:30:23.160 --> 0:30:25.400 to do the right thing, pay a livable wage, provide 0:30:25.400 --> 0:30:28.200 paid sick days. They're a little more varied across the country. Now, 0:30:28.200 --> 0:30:30.920 when we look at the rest of the burger sector, 0:30:31.040 --> 0:30:33.760 everything from McDonald's to Burger King, to Wendy's to all 0:30:33.760 --> 0:30:38.640 the other small ones, really not good uh employers. Well, 0:30:38.680 --> 0:30:40.960 it's not just that they're not good employers. They're actually 0:30:41.000 --> 0:30:43.800 the leaders of the National Restaurant Association. So what's important 0:30:43.840 --> 0:30:45.920 to note about these folks is they don't just follow 0:30:45.960 --> 0:30:48.200 the minimum wage and pay it. They actually set the 0:30:48.200 --> 0:30:51.200 minimum wage. They're in Congress lobbying to keep the wage 0:30:51.200 --> 0:30:55.800 at seven dollars. That's unbelievable. And if you look at 0:30:56.400 --> 0:31:00.400 the structure of you go around different stays and you 0:31:00.400 --> 0:31:05.000 look at who is the highest recipient of medicare medically 0:31:05.400 --> 0:31:08.480 and aid to depend on children exactly depending on the state, 0:31:08.520 --> 0:31:13.240 it's either Walmart, although that's changed, or McDonald's. McDonald's workers 0:31:13.360 --> 0:31:17.920 as a group are a huge subsidized entity to the 0:31:17.960 --> 0:31:21.680 local franchise. It's actually not just McDonald's, this entire industry. 0:31:21.720 --> 0:31:24.480 So we spend seven billion dollars in taxpayer money on 0:31:24.520 --> 0:31:28.560 fast food chain workers public assistance usage and nine point 0:31:28.640 --> 0:31:33.240 five billion dollars on full service restaurant workers public assistance usage. 0:31:33.280 --> 0:31:36.240 I'm talking about Apple, Applebee's and olive garden, and I 0:31:36.400 --> 0:31:40.520 hoped those workers get we're doubly subsidizing those full service 0:31:40.560 --> 0:31:44.560 restaurants because they're multibillion dollar companies. On the one hand, 0:31:44.560 --> 0:31:46.760 we pay their workers wages through our tips because they're 0:31:46.760 --> 0:31:50.040 paying two dollars. On the other hand, we're paying for 0:31:50.080 --> 0:31:52.960 their workers survival through public assistance. So we are doubly 0:31:53.040 --> 0:31:56.440 subsidizing the eye hops and the Applebe's and olive gardens 0:31:56.440 --> 0:31:59.520 of the world, and they're turning over incredible profits. I'm 0:31:59.520 --> 0:32:03.720 always a ended when a profitable public company is subsidized 0:32:03.760 --> 0:32:06.960 by taxpayers. That really gets gets my goat. Let's talk 0:32:06.960 --> 0:32:13.440 about a different group of restaurants. Mexican food, except for Chippotle, 0:32:13.840 --> 0:32:16.960 pretty much terrible across the board in terms of chains. Yeah, 0:32:16.960 --> 0:32:20.760 I mean, there are really fabulous independent Mexican restaurants around 0:32:20.760 --> 0:32:23.040 the country that do it right. Lappa LAPAs one here 0:32:23.080 --> 0:32:26.400 in the city in the village, fantastic Mexican restaurant, provides 0:32:26.440 --> 0:32:29.040 paid sick days. Has been an advocate for higher wages 0:32:29.080 --> 0:32:32.800 for a long time. Um. But among the chains, Chipotle 0:32:33.080 --> 0:32:35.440 does stand out. I mean, all the other chains are 0:32:35.520 --> 0:32:38.560 pretty terrible. UM, and I know Chippotle has been a 0:32:38.560 --> 0:32:41.400 lot in the news for other things lately, but I 0:32:41.440 --> 0:32:45.200 will say that they have been really good about asking 0:32:45.240 --> 0:32:47.520 what can we do better in terms of our workers 0:32:47.760 --> 0:32:50.560 and then actually doing it. So when people want to 0:32:50.600 --> 0:32:53.120 find your sort of research and writing, where's the best 0:32:53.120 --> 0:32:55.520 place for them to look? Go to Forked, the book 0:32:55.600 --> 0:32:58.000 dot com and on that you can actually see a 0:32:58.040 --> 0:33:00.840 website where you can see all the restaurants ratings, how 0:33:00.880 --> 0:33:03.400 people faring on issues of wages, benefits and promotions. You 0:33:03.400 --> 0:33:05.680 can also get the book and see the trailers. That's 0:33:05.720 --> 0:33:08.880 the best place. Thank you, Su for being so generous 0:33:08.920 --> 0:33:12.520 with your time. We've been speaking with Saru Jairamin. She 0:33:12.920 --> 0:33:17.160 is the director of Research Opportunity Center at You See 0:33:17.200 --> 0:33:21.120 Berkeley and author of the book Forked. If you enjoy 0:33:21.240 --> 0:33:24.080 this conversation, be sure and hang around and listen to 0:33:24.120 --> 0:33:27.280 our podcast extras where we keep the tape rolling and 0:33:27.360 --> 0:33:31.760 continue chatting. Be sure and check out my daily column 0:33:31.760 --> 0:33:35.080 on Bloomberg View dot com or follow me on Twitter 0:33:35.280 --> 0:33:39.120 at Ridlts. I'm Barry Rihults. You've been listening to Masters 0:33:39.120 --> 0:33:43.680 in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to the podcast, Saru. 0:33:43.760 --> 0:33:45.520 Thank you so much for doing this. This has really 0:33:45.560 --> 0:33:50.280 been quite fascinating. Um Before, during the broadcast segment we 0:33:50.320 --> 0:33:53.440 had talked about burgers and Mexican food. One of the 0:33:53.440 --> 0:33:56.200 things I had to ask you. In the book, you 0:33:56.320 --> 0:34:00.800 break down the restaurant industry by segment by segment, I 0:34:00.840 --> 0:34:05.320 was really surprised to see under the coffee segment. Look, 0:34:05.360 --> 0:34:09.000 I expect Duncan Donuts and Tim Horton and Panera to 0:34:09.080 --> 0:34:14.719 be mediocre, but Starbucks has a reputation. They offer healthcare, 0:34:14.840 --> 0:34:18.200 they do four oh one case. I assumed they were 0:34:18.200 --> 0:34:20.960 pretty good. You tell me not so much. Now. They've 0:34:21.000 --> 0:34:23.840 done a really amazing job at promoting the idea that 0:34:23.880 --> 0:34:26.560 they provide all of these things. But they have been 0:34:26.680 --> 0:34:29.279 under so much fire over the last many years from 0:34:29.280 --> 0:34:31.839 workers and journalists have uncovered this as well, that they 0:34:31.960 --> 0:34:37.360 just managed to consistently under provide just two little hours 0:34:37.360 --> 0:34:40.080 for workers to actually get those benefits, and so they 0:34:40.120 --> 0:34:43.279 employ lots of workers at very low wages with very 0:34:43.280 --> 0:34:46.600 little hours less than so far less. Most workers in 0:34:46.719 --> 0:34:49.719 Starbucks get less than twenty hours really, so they're having 0:34:49.760 --> 0:34:53.920 to piece together multiple shifts, multiple jobs, and it's incredibly 0:34:53.960 --> 0:34:56.919 difficult to survive. And and I do recall reading that 0:34:56.960 --> 0:35:00.480 that the shift changes happen really last many That's right. 0:35:00.560 --> 0:35:03.000 If you have to take care of a kid commitments, 0:35:03.000 --> 0:35:05.520 it becomes really challenged, really challenging. And when you're earning 0:35:05.560 --> 0:35:08.480 that little, you know, childcare is like half of your 0:35:08.520 --> 0:35:11.640 income and you can't even get back in time because 0:35:11.640 --> 0:35:13.760 you're asked to stay longer to clean up or whatever, 0:35:14.200 --> 0:35:17.280 and you end up paying more. My perspective is so skewed. 0:35:17.320 --> 0:35:19.640 You go into any Manhattan Starbucks, there are lines out 0:35:19.640 --> 0:35:22.200 the door. You see the same people working all week. 0:35:22.320 --> 0:35:24.359 I see the same faces all the time. But that's 0:35:24.360 --> 0:35:25.839 not how it is in the rest of that's not 0:35:25.960 --> 0:35:28.439 That's not how it is. And even those workers I think, 0:35:28.440 --> 0:35:30.840 you know, Starbucks, for how much they're charging us for coffee, 0:35:30.840 --> 0:35:33.800 could be paying these workers a lot better. But they're 0:35:33.840 --> 0:35:36.680 not well paid and they're just not given enough hours 0:35:36.719 --> 0:35:39.719 to survive. So is it an overstatement to say Starbucks 0:35:39.760 --> 0:35:43.680 is the new McDonald's. Um, it's a new kind of 0:35:43.760 --> 0:35:47.840 McDonald's because McDonald's doesn't make any pretension to being a 0:35:47.840 --> 0:35:55.359 good employer. Starbucks does. But unfortunately still work in any 0:35:55.360 --> 0:35:58.680 fast food restaurants. No, Um, I did a lot of 0:35:58.920 --> 0:36:01.719 No I didn't. I worked in in high school, I 0:36:01.760 --> 0:36:05.120 worked in McDonald's. I started on a Saturday and Sunday 0:36:05.160 --> 0:36:07.440 I gave them the hat night Brendon, I said, you 0:36:07.600 --> 0:36:09.759 keep the paycheck. I'm never coming back here and I'm 0:36:09.760 --> 0:36:12.359 never eating McDonald's again. And that was pretty much I 0:36:12.400 --> 0:36:15.280 think I might have on the road had a burger once, 0:36:15.719 --> 0:36:18.040 but that's pretty much it. Because you didn't like the 0:36:18.040 --> 0:36:21.719 way you were treated. Um. No, you start out with 0:36:21.760 --> 0:36:24.320 a bag of dehydrated onions the size of your fifths, 0:36:24.600 --> 0:36:27.840 and you put it into a pan that's three ft 0:36:27.840 --> 0:36:29.600 by one foot and fill it with water. In the 0:36:29.640 --> 0:36:34.840 next morning there reconstituted onions. And it makes you wonder 0:36:35.239 --> 0:36:38.839 what is the rest of this food like stuff that 0:36:38.880 --> 0:36:42.120 you're eating. And and look, I'm a foodie. I like 0:36:42.200 --> 0:36:45.560 really good restaurants, and I could eat fast food. I 0:36:46.200 --> 0:36:50.319 enjoy you know, shake shock, and you know, of of 0:36:50.440 --> 0:36:54.120 all the fast food before the New Rounds, it was 0:36:54.200 --> 0:36:57.680 Wendy's was much superior to McDonald's and Burger King because 0:36:57.719 --> 0:37:02.399 it was fresh and it felt like food. Yeah. Um, 0:37:02.440 --> 0:37:06.239 but really, anything that's mass produced like that and is 0:37:06.280 --> 0:37:09.920 consistent across the country is really just a food like 0:37:10.080 --> 0:37:14.040 substitute and not actual nutrition and that was the problem 0:37:14.040 --> 0:37:15.840 with that. Yeah, I mean, I think there are folks 0:37:15.880 --> 0:37:18.760 that are managing to get this, get quality to scale 0:37:18.840 --> 0:37:21.840 and good conditions to scale, and so in the coffee world, 0:37:21.880 --> 0:37:25.000 one example is Blue Bottle Coffee. They are but that's 0:37:25.040 --> 0:37:28.319 not a big chain. Is now they're growing really fast. Well, 0:37:28.320 --> 0:37:30.880 there's there in California, They're in New York, they're in Tokyo. 0:37:31.280 --> 0:37:35.000 They're growing really rapidly. Yeah. One, um, I think it's 0:37:35.040 --> 0:37:39.479 just off Broadway and nine. Yeah. Good. It's extremely high 0:37:39.520 --> 0:37:42.480 quality coffee and they pay a livable wage. I'm talking 0:37:42.560 --> 0:37:46.520 closer to fifteen dollars an hour. Really, yeah, that's interesting. 0:37:46.600 --> 0:37:51.279 The the other place we were talking about earlier Chippotle. 0:37:52.200 --> 0:37:55.040 One of the things so we alluded to the problems 0:37:55.040 --> 0:37:57.959 they've had. They had an e coal I break out, which, now, 0:37:58.080 --> 0:38:00.360 by the way, I forgot someone just came out and 0:38:00.360 --> 0:38:02.920 declared it's over. I don't know if we or somebody else, 0:38:03.320 --> 0:38:07.359 but the issue they ran into is specifically because they're 0:38:07.400 --> 0:38:11.520 not sourcing everything to one farm that they could closely monitor. 0:38:11.600 --> 0:38:14.440 It's all local, and that that's was much more challenging 0:38:14.560 --> 0:38:17.880 to how do you stay on top of how people 0:38:17.880 --> 0:38:21.400 are washing their hands in the field at ten thousand 0:38:21.440 --> 0:38:24.239 local farms. Yeah, but it's still it's still the right 0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:29.120 way to actually have locally sourced, sustainable organic food, you know, 0:38:29.640 --> 0:38:34.120 non GMO, right, and it's possible, and they've done They've 0:38:34.160 --> 0:38:37.680 done really well. The the joke I tweeted the other 0:38:37.760 --> 0:38:42.040 day the day of the Powerball lottery was I'm feeling lucky, 0:38:42.640 --> 0:38:45.680 so I'm gonna buy a Powerball lottery ticket and go 0:38:45.760 --> 0:38:49.239 to chippotl and I only I one of them worked 0:38:49.239 --> 0:38:52.200 out and the other one. So it was that what 0:38:52.200 --> 0:38:54.400 what about fine dining? So I was a little bummed 0:38:54.440 --> 0:38:57.160 to see Del Frisco is on your list of bad 0:38:57.280 --> 0:39:01.399 fine dining establishments. That's a great stay cost. But now 0:39:01.440 --> 0:39:04.319 that I think about it, I've never had anyone. I've 0:39:04.360 --> 0:39:09.400 had some women servers, but everybody has been a white person. 0:39:09.760 --> 0:39:12.120 The bart one of the bartenders there is of color, 0:39:12.239 --> 0:39:16.600 but it's a pretty you know, white bread sort of. 0:39:16.640 --> 0:39:20.040 I mean, most of the chain fine dining steakhouses are 0:39:20.160 --> 0:39:23.319 actually leaders in the National Restaurant Association, most of them, 0:39:23.840 --> 0:39:26.520 so they all follow that same what we call low 0:39:26.719 --> 0:39:30.040 road standard. I always forget there a chain because that 0:39:30.239 --> 0:39:32.960 they've they started out as like all the chain started 0:39:32.960 --> 0:39:36.120 as a single steakhouse. And unless you see them pop 0:39:36.280 --> 0:39:40.200 like you see Ruth, Chris and Mortens, they pop up everywhere. 0:39:40.560 --> 0:39:42.719 There's only a handful of Del Frisco. So I don't 0:39:42.719 --> 0:39:47.040 really think of it. What about the other steakhouses like, um, 0:39:48.600 --> 0:39:50.880 I'm just trying to think of what's not a chain. 0:39:51.400 --> 0:39:54.520 Smith and Lanski has always been a Peter Lugers is 0:39:54.560 --> 0:39:57.000 another one. I don't think anyone who's working in Peter 0:39:57.080 --> 0:40:00.600 Lugers is less than a hundred years old. So they 0:40:00.160 --> 0:40:05.799 they were hired before emancipation, right, it's am I right, 0:40:05.800 --> 0:40:09.160 it's a bunch of old white They are professionals, and 0:40:09.560 --> 0:40:12.600 I will say I mean even like a bowtload of money. Yeah, 0:40:12.600 --> 0:40:15.480 and we wish they were more diverse, but they are 0:40:15.600 --> 0:40:18.239 professionals who have a craft and do it really well. 0:40:18.320 --> 0:40:21.120 And that's we want. We want everybody to be valued 0:40:21.160 --> 0:40:23.359 the way they're valued. Right, you know that's the right 0:40:23.400 --> 0:40:25.040 I think that's the real right way to say it. 0:40:25.360 --> 0:40:27.360 So I know we only have you for a limited 0:40:27.400 --> 0:40:29.920 amount of time. You you you have a couple of places 0:40:29.960 --> 0:40:32.200 to run to. Let me go through some of my 0:40:32.520 --> 0:40:34.960 favorite questions that I asked all my guests, and I'll 0:40:35.040 --> 0:40:38.000 do the short version. So, so, who are your early 0:40:38.080 --> 0:40:42.359 mentors who helped you, you know, public policy and yell 0:40:42.400 --> 0:40:45.680 law school. How do you become a restaurant advocate, restaurant 0:40:45.680 --> 0:40:51.200 worker advocate? Oh gosh, um, any professor stand down, anybody 0:40:51.239 --> 0:40:53.799 stand out? Is steering you into this or was it 0:40:53.880 --> 0:40:57.799 just serendipity post nine eleven? I mean, honestly, it was 0:40:57.880 --> 0:41:01.200 my family, who are immigrants from India, and you know 0:41:01.320 --> 0:41:07.960 immigrants are My parents, like most immigrants, are just incredibly resilient, persistent, 0:41:08.680 --> 0:41:11.480 very politically astute, very aware of what was going on 0:41:11.520 --> 0:41:14.400 in angry and for me, it was about turning that 0:41:14.480 --> 0:41:17.840 anger into positive action. And that's what this has been about. 0:41:18.200 --> 0:41:20.520 So you were you were born in Rochester. Did you 0:41:21.080 --> 0:41:24.239 parents migrates to go? Yeah? My parents actually I was 0:41:24.280 --> 0:41:26.160 the first baby born in the United States. They came 0:41:26.160 --> 0:41:28.680 from India, had me in Rochester, and then we moved 0:41:28.680 --> 0:41:35.239 to California, nicer weather, better opportunities. Um. So that's the 0:41:35.280 --> 0:41:38.279 thing is that they've always sought better and better and 0:41:38.320 --> 0:41:41.400 better for their children, and that is the story of 0:41:41.440 --> 0:41:43.719 the immigrants, and for us, that's actually the story of 0:41:43.719 --> 0:41:46.600 this book. Too. It's the high road. It's continuously seeking 0:41:46.640 --> 0:41:49.000 to do better. Someone would some people would say that's 0:41:49.040 --> 0:41:52.399 the story of America is that's immigrants, people constantly looking 0:41:52.440 --> 0:41:55.200 for a better opportunity, that's right for their kids, that's right. 0:41:55.440 --> 0:41:58.480 In the next generation we get lazy and sloppy. We 0:41:58.520 --> 0:42:00.919 don't know how bad it was over there. I'm sure, 0:42:01.080 --> 0:42:05.080 like I heard, I'm sure you've heard stories. Yeah growing up. Um, 0:42:05.080 --> 0:42:06.719 what are some of your favorite books? I don't care 0:42:06.760 --> 0:42:10.360 if it's fiction non fiction. What influenced your thought process 0:42:10.440 --> 0:42:14.960 about this? I mentioned Kitchen Confidential Anthony boor Dane, which 0:42:15.000 --> 0:42:18.320 is both ribald and hilarious. Yeah, I'm Nickel and dimed 0:42:18.360 --> 0:42:21.560 by Barbara Aaron right was really it was the Walmart employer. 0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:25.239 She worked in Walmart, you worked undercover as a waitress, 0:42:25.280 --> 0:42:28.719 actually as a domestic work as a house cleaner. And 0:42:28.760 --> 0:42:31.440 I can't remember what the third low age job she did, 0:42:31.480 --> 0:42:34.080 but um, you know she lived in her car, living 0:42:34.120 --> 0:42:38.840 on these wages. So that was really eye opening. Um. Fiction, 0:42:39.160 --> 0:42:41.439 I love arn that they roy you know a lot 0:42:41.440 --> 0:42:45.759 of books, international books, so real mix of things and um, 0:42:45.800 --> 0:42:49.000 so what do you what do you see changing in 0:42:49.040 --> 0:42:52.279 the restaurant industry, what changes are taking place, and what 0:42:52.560 --> 0:42:56.560 might change going forward. Yeah. So I'm sure everybody's heard 0:42:56.560 --> 0:42:58.960 a lot in the news about Danny Meyer and this 0:42:59.040 --> 0:43:02.640 whole move to limon tipping. And you know, we Danny 0:43:02.719 --> 0:43:05.520 Mar's company had actually been a part of our Association 0:43:05.640 --> 0:43:08.719 of High Road Restaurants for over a decade um, but 0:43:08.800 --> 0:43:10.880 he and I actually hadn't sat down, and when we 0:43:10.920 --> 0:43:13.200 finally did, we told him everything I've talked to you 0:43:13.200 --> 0:43:16.200 about today in terms of this whole history of tipping 0:43:16.239 --> 0:43:18.919 being you know, rooted in slavery, in the tipmenimum wage, 0:43:18.960 --> 0:43:21.479 and impact on women in sexual harassment. And he said, 0:43:21.480 --> 0:43:23.560 you know, I've been thinking about these issues for twenty years. 0:43:24.200 --> 0:43:27.239 Let's think about moving in a different direction. And so 0:43:27.280 --> 0:43:29.400 we worked with them over a series of months and 0:43:29.480 --> 0:43:32.520 they actually, you know, they did it right. They moved 0:43:32.600 --> 0:43:35.040 to eliminate tipping in a way that actually makes their 0:43:35.040 --> 0:43:37.600 workers whole. So they're ensuring that workers are now getting 0:43:37.640 --> 0:43:40.080 everything that they would have gotten in tips now through 0:43:40.120 --> 0:43:43.040 revenue share, now through wages. What's the transition been like 0:43:43.120 --> 0:43:46.520 for the restaurants have have? What do customers say? How 0:43:46.600 --> 0:43:48.720 was it worked out for everybody? I mean everybody seems 0:43:48.760 --> 0:43:51.600 to be really happy. We interviewed workers, we interviewed customers. 0:43:51.960 --> 0:43:54.239 They've done it really well that they had town hall 0:43:54.280 --> 0:43:57.560 meetings with workers and customers and management, and they just 0:43:57.680 --> 0:44:00.759 really had a very inclusive and transparent ass and that's 0:44:00.960 --> 0:44:02.759 how we would want it done. You know, our fight 0:44:02.880 --> 0:44:05.600 is not actually to eliminate tipping. We don't actually advocate 0:44:05.600 --> 0:44:08.520 for that. We're advocating for one fair wage with tips 0:44:08.560 --> 0:44:12.080 on top, as they have in California. But it's really 0:44:12.120 --> 0:44:15.080 to raise the floor exactly and ensure that the employers 0:44:15.120 --> 0:44:17.160 actually paying a full wage and let tips be on 0:44:17.280 --> 0:44:20.920 top of that. But if employers want to go further 0:44:21.080 --> 0:44:24.400 and eliminate tips altogether, we are supportive if they do 0:44:24.440 --> 0:44:27.239 it the way Danny Meyer did, which is inclusive and transparent, 0:44:27.320 --> 0:44:30.080 and ensure that their workers are making everything they would 0:44:30.080 --> 0:44:33.200 have made in tips now through wages. So you work 0:44:33.280 --> 0:44:35.840 with a lot of students, you're you're over you see Berkeley. 0:44:35.960 --> 0:44:38.520 What sort of advice would you give to either a 0:44:38.560 --> 0:44:42.279 millennial or college grad who says, I really want to 0:44:42.320 --> 0:44:48.400 get into the restaurant industry. I would say, um, well, definitely, 0:44:48.480 --> 0:44:51.480 I think, uh stick with it. You know, view it 0:44:51.520 --> 0:44:54.880 as a profession. Um, give it your all and be 0:44:55.280 --> 0:44:57.600 join us and be a part with us of making 0:44:57.600 --> 0:45:01.120 it a better industry for everybody. So definitely focus on 0:45:01.160 --> 0:45:04.200 your career, you know, go all the way. Definitely do 0:45:04.280 --> 0:45:06.520 your thing, but also join us and making it better, 0:45:06.640 --> 0:45:09.960 because only by working with us to professionalize this industry 0:45:10.040 --> 0:45:12.799 will your work in this industry be valued and our 0:45:12.840 --> 0:45:16.120 our final question, what is it that you know about 0:45:16.200 --> 0:45:20.279 the restaurant industry that you wish you knew twenty years ago? 0:45:22.880 --> 0:45:26.200 That question always gives pause. Yeah, you know when I 0:45:26.239 --> 0:45:29.120 when I remember as a law student and right after 0:45:29.239 --> 0:45:32.160 law school being a card carring foodie. I mean I 0:45:32.239 --> 0:45:35.319 lived here in New York City. I ate three times out, 0:45:35.760 --> 0:45:38.719 you know, three times a day out, and I ate 0:45:38.760 --> 0:45:42.560 everything and I was totally oblivious. I cannot remember a 0:45:42.600 --> 0:45:45.359 single worker from all those years of eating out. And 0:45:45.400 --> 0:45:48.239 so now as a diner when I eat out, I 0:45:48.280 --> 0:45:51.239 noticed things. I noticed the racial makeup of the end 0:45:51.360 --> 0:45:54.320 of the restaurant. I noticed how women are being treated. 0:45:54.360 --> 0:45:56.960 I noticed I think about things like paid sick days 0:45:56.960 --> 0:45:59.640 and wages, and I just I think all of us. 0:45:59.640 --> 0:46:01.799 I would I had known this twenty years ago to 0:46:01.840 --> 0:46:04.040 be a different kind of diner, and I would encourage 0:46:04.080 --> 0:46:05.960 all of us to be a different kind of diner, 0:46:06.040 --> 0:46:08.440 to know what's happening in this industry, and to really 0:46:08.560 --> 0:46:11.439 encourage this industry to take the high road. So Ruth, 0:46:11.480 --> 0:46:14.080 thank you so much for being so generous with your time. 0:46:14.760 --> 0:46:16.759 I would be remiss if I did not thank my 0:46:16.800 --> 0:46:22.040 head of research, Mike Batnick, and my recording engineer, Charlie Vohmer. 0:46:22.239 --> 0:46:24.680 If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure and look up 0:46:24.800 --> 0:46:27.160 or down an Inch on iTunes and you could see 0:46:27.160 --> 0:46:30.240 the other eighty eight or so such chats we've had. 0:46:30.880 --> 0:46:34.359 Be sure and check out saw Ru's other writings on 0:46:34.520 --> 0:46:38.480 forked the book dot com. You've been listening to Masters 0:46:38.480 --> 0:46:40.360 in Business on Bloomberg Radio.