WEBVTT - A New Investigation 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:07.640 Paper Ghosts is a production of iHeartRadio. Throughout the decades 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:10.240 I've been covering true crime, I've looked into more than 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:15.080 a hundred missing persons and murder cases. I've interviewed scores 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:20.000 of law enforcement victims, families, even killers themselves, all to 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:24.599 gain a better understanding of how investigations are handled and 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:30.000 the tools law enforcement used to develop information and solve crimes. 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:34.400 Much has changed over the years, but in the past 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:38.600 decade or so, I've witnessed a major shift, one that 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:45.919 I hadn't anticipated, the emergence of a new group of investigators, citizens, sleuths. 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:51.320 And nowhere is that phenomenon more obvious than in Tammy 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:55.040 Zuwiki's case. Oh there was all kinds of stories, you know, 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:58.480 You'd read that she was picked up by a stranger, 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.840 some guy in a truck stopped to help her, another 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:06.880 guy in a pickup truck. Patrick Jones is the founder 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:10.200 of the Who Killed Tammy's a Wicki Facebook group, a 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:15.360 passionate collection of Tammy's friends, family members, true crime buffs, 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:20.280 and citizen investigators. Well, the Facebook page it grew like 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:23.559 you wouldn't believe. I mean, I was just hoping, Oh, 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:27.040 maybe we'll get one hundred people, two hundred people, and 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:29.720 I think today I'm trying to look at it right now, 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:34.080 We've got over four thousand members on there. Patrick started 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:37.160 the Facebook group in two thousand and nine. He didn't 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.560 know Tammy, but was drawn to her story and sometimes 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:43.360 had a picture of Tammy on the front page. And 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:45.280 I looked at her and I was thinking, I got 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:49.240 a daughter about the same age. While working my way 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:52.320 through Tammy's case, I felt that the group warranted a 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.760 closer look. For what it's worth, I'm not a fan 0:01:56.160 --> 0:02:01.000 of online sleuthing. Citizen sleuths have the power to shift 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:05.080 the narrative in a case. They can interfere with investigations 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:09.760 accused innocent people of a crime. More than anything, though, 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:14.639 they can inject themselves into someone else's story, and for 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:18.280 better or worse, some members of the who Killed Tammy 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:23.360 Ziwiki Facebook group have succeeded in doing just that. Another 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:26.760 article came out like thirteen, fourteen years ago whatever it 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.519 was about Tammy's case, and I was reading it and 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:31.760 then I said, you know what, maybe I'll put something 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:35.280 on Facebook. I'll offer a reward, you know, I think 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:39.280 I put a thousand dollars reward or something. Today Patrick 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:42.760 works as a firearms instructor and an engineer at the 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:46.640 Forest Preserves. Before that, he worked part time as a 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:50.680 police lieutenant in a village outside Chicago. We had like 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:53.560 four or five members, which they were all police officers. 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:56.680 All the guys at the police department jumped down right away, 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:58.919 you know, as a favorite, so I could build it 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:06.880 a little and then alone came Robert. Robert was hugely 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:10.440 instrumental in developing the website with Me or Facebook page. 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:15.040 Robert cut Lark is someone I met in the earliest 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:19.040 days of my investigation. You might remember him from the 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:23.040 first episode. He's the archaeologist who grew up a town 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:25.880 over from Tammy in New Jersey and has developed a 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:30.480 close friendship with Joanne Ziwiki over the years. Like Patrick, 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:34.920 he's also an administrator of the Facebook group. He's dug 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:38.440 up so much stuff it's unbelievable. On our Facebook page, 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.440 We've got a file section that's just phenomenal. You could 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:46.440 go through there and read everything about who they've investigated 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:50.040 over the years, who they've ruled out. And Robert's been 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.440 in contact with the all the various agencies that have 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:56.720 been helping out FBI, State Police and what have you. 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:00.760 A lot of good has come from the Facebook group. 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.400 Several of Tammy's old friends and peers are members, which 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.119 made it easy to reach out to them for this podcast. 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:12.200 Patrick and Robert were also immensely helpful in the earliest 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:16.880 days of my research, provided me with documents and valuable contacts. 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:22.200 More than anything, the Who Killed Tammy Zowiki Facebook group 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.760 provides a real sense of community for those morning Tammy 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.120 time and again. I was struck by the effort folks 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:33.880 like Robert and Patrick put into keeping Tammy's story alive 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:39.239 and finding ways to honor her memory. Mostly, we're talking 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:43.839 about decent people with good intentions. They want to help 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:48.800 and they genuinely care about the Ziwiki family. But good 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.880 intentions are often not enough, and in this case, the 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:56.919 Facebook group can sometimes become a place where speculation and 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:02.320 conspiracy is allowed to exist and ultimately cast out on 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:08.400 innocent people. When you started the page, were you getting tips? Yeah? 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.320 We actually we were getting What was the first big 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:15.479 major tip that you got? The biggest thing we ever 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:19.760 got was that what the hell's his name? The guy 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:28.680 didn't find a body? Uh Lonnie Dumot Lonnie Damot previously 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:32.279 on Paper Ghosts. He came in. He was posting like 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:34.960 a son of a bitch, and then people were all 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:37.920 of a sudden, everybody was asking questions like you wouldn't believe. 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:40.520 I think he wanted to confess to something. In my 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:44.000 opinion that he wants to say, Hey, here's what happened. 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:46.840 Do you remember the type of watch she was wearing? 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:50.480 And did the watch play that song ranging Jane Jobs 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:53.200 came falling on my head she was wearing that watch. Yeah, 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:57.200 I've done this long time, and I just thought, well, bingle, 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:01.200 how many coincidence gonna be here? My name MM William Phelps. 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:04.599 I'm an investigative journalist an author of more than forty 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:09.640 true crime books. This is season three of Paper Ghosts 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:29.680 In plain Sight. There has been a cloud of suspicion 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:36.279 lingering over Lonnie Dumont since the day he discovered Tammy's body. Lonnie, 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:40.599 you may recall, is the repairman from Missouri who stopped 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:43.880 his truck to cover his tools back in September of 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:49.800 nineteen ninety two and stumbled upon Tammy's body. Like many 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:53.520 of those interested in Tammy's case, Lonnie joined the Facebook 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:57.599 group in twenty twenty and began answering questions from its members. 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:02.280 Lonnie dum he got on and he just started acting goofy, 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:06.040 putting all kinds of stuff out, and we've got screenshots 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:09.200 of everything that he put out, and he's just to me, 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:14.560 it seems a little weird with him. Like Patrick, Robert 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:18.400 Cutlaric is suspicious of Lonnie Dumot, though for different reasons. 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:23.000 In his view, Lonnie has given varying accounts of how 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:28.400 and why he came upon Tammy's body. The reasons given 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.239 for him coming off the highway depends on what source 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:35.520 you read. The earliest reference was that he had stopped 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:40.760 to relieve himself. Later, in nineteen ninety three, with the 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:45.640 publication of the People magazine article, it says that, and 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:49.360 this is coming from the man himself, Lonnie Dumot, that 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:51.720 he pulled over because he wanted to cover up the 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:55.720 tools in the back of his vehicle. Now fast forward 0:07:55.760 --> 0:08:02.640 to twenty twenty one. People May Magazine did a television 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:07.400 production on Tammy's case. They interviewed mister Dumont, and mister 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.560 Dumott said that he got out of his vehicle to 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:14.880 move his tools into the cabin the vehicle, so we 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:18.880 have some discrepancies as to what actually was going on there. 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:21.960 Robert says he doesn't know the origin of the story 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:26.480 about Lonnie Dumot's stopping to relieve himself. Neither did Lonnie 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.680 when I asked him about it last summer. There's another 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:32.640 report of you said you stopped to take a piss, 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.520 did you, No, I stopped to get my tools out 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:39.400 of the back of the truck. There has been a 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:43.200 lot of energy focused on Lonnie Dumont's recollections from that day, 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:47.280 some of which were made nearly thirty years after the fact, 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:51.400 among them the order in which Lonnie and the state 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:58.520 trooper handled Tammy's body. The original story, as heard from 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:05.079 mister Dumot, was that the police officer was squeamish and 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:09.280 was nervous about cutting open the blanket, and Lonnie volunteered 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:14.680 to do it for him, and he says that he 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:18.679 cut the blanket open and the officer was the one 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:24.000 who cut the sheet. However, he posted on Facebook in 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:30.200 a comment the opposite that the officer cut the blanket 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:34.560 and he cut the sheet. I mentioned all this not 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:38.160 to discredit anyone, but rather to show the ways in 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:43.440 which cybersleuthing can become problematic. You can't speculate that a 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.400 guy might be guilty of murder because of a spotty 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:51.600 recollection from thirty years ago. Lonnie has a vested interest 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.679 in the case, and his presence in the Facebook group 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:59.040 does not strike me as suspicious in any way. Whatsoever 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.600 he found Tammy's body, it makes sense why he'd want 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:07.520 to see what was going on with the case. Regardless, 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:11.040 there are those who continue to believe that Lonnie's involvement 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:15.400 at the crime scene was intentional, a stealthy way to 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:19.000 account for his DNA being left at the scene. So 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.760 your gut is that he's got something to do with it. 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:24.960 I honestly think that. Yes, I don't think that he's 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.920 been rolled out, you know, by the law enforcement, but 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:31.840 I think he's got something to do it. It's just 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:38.160 too coincidental. As it turns out, law enforcement would make 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:42.320 an effort to rule Lonnie Dumot out as a suspect. Hi, 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:45.280 mister Dumont money and is with the FBI at a 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.079 job in Missouri. And when you have an opportunity that 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:50.800 you please Lonnie, says a case agent from one of 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:54.880 the FBI's Missouri field offices reached out in twenty twenty 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:58.840 one to get his version of events and also request 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:02.440 a sample of his DNA. He says, the first time 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:05.240 he listened to that voicemail, he thought it was a joke. 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.600 I thought that this guy was one of my buddies 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:12.840 calling me doing a prank. But it wasn't. It actually was. 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:15.960 When I called him back, he said, I'm I'm out 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:20.880 at the FBI at Joplin. There's a guy, an investigator 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.720 doing an investigation out of Chicago. And he said, I'm 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:29.560 doing this interview for him. And then when I met him, 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:31.719 I met him in a little restaurant and there was 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.400 two of them come out and I'm sitting there and 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:39.560 they come in and he said that that he was 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:42.600 gonna talk to me, and this other guy sat right 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:44.679 by us, and all he did was watched me. He 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.160 must have been a profiler. And they sat there and 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.880 talked to me for all quite a while and asked 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.080 me different questions and like what what kind of question? Well, 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:55.760 they asked me about just pretty much about what you've 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:59.760 asked me. And he said that anything that I if 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:03.000 I remembering thing, call him and that would relay the 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:09.319 message to the guy in Chicago. I've spoken to Lonnie 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:12.840 on several occasions, mainly to hear him tell his story 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:16.840 multiple times. Time and again. I found his version of 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:25.000 events to be consistent and entirely plausible. I also learned 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:28.920 from the Lawrence County Sheriff's office that Lonnie was mentioned 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:32.280 in their crime scene report. It noted that he was 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:36.120 a volunteer fireman at the time, which makes sense why 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:39.560 he would have been asked to assist in moving Tammy's 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:43.840 body out of the gulch. That same report, however, did 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:47.920 not mention that Lonnie helped carry the body. This doesn't 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:51.240 mean he didn't help, only that there's no record of it. 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:55.600 Lonnie maintains that up until the fall of twenty twenty one, 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:59.239 when the FBI called him, no one from law enforcement 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:03.320 had spoke to him since the day he found Tammy's body. 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:06.360 What did they want from you? They just wanted to 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:08.960 interview me and talk to me and blood. They took 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:12.520 us DNA sample And how did they do that? Dwamam 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:15.360 mouth and why did they say they needed that? They 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:19.439 said they're trying to eliminate everybody from being a suspect. 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:22.800 And he said, we know that she touched the blanket. 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.800 We know that. But he said that any DNA that 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.840 would be found on her body or her clothes, they 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:33.320 would be tested against. And since that day, I've never 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:37.480 heard anything Roman. The fact that this meeting between Lonnie 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:42.840 and the FBI occurred relatively recently says so much. For one, 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:47.240 the FBI took Linny's DNA because they believe his story 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.880 or like me, couldn't rule out the possibility that he 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:57.280 helped move Tammy's body. Also that the Bureau is making 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:02.640 another run at testing old DNA from Tammy's clothing, her body, 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:06.560 the blanket, or any additional evidence found at the scene 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:11.920 and collected throughout the investigation. They said, we've done got 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:17.280 stuff from their families, so DNA from their families. So 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.520 they when they'd come and talk to me, he is 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:24.640 probably on you on the list of people to talk to. 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:29.920 And they said that it that's all they really needed. 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:34.520 It seems to me that law enforcement is trying to 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:38.640 produce a match, rule out anyone who could have inadvertently 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:43.560 left DNA at the scene, or potentially build a genealogy database. 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:48.320 What's more, the FBI has had Lonnie Dumott's DNA for 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:50.760 a year and a half and has not made any 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:55.400 moves to arrest him. The FBI and ISP won't comment 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:59.840 on an active investigation, but likely if Lonnie was their guy, 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.240 he'd be locked up by now. And so they took 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:05.120 to DNA And how did you feel about that? Oh, 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:07.240 it didn't bother me because I mean, I know I 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:11.560 wasn't part of it, but they got eliminate everybody. And 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:16.240 I figured that, you know, I could have been a 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:18.880 crap head and said no, I'm not gonna do it, 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:22.240 you know. But like I told him this, he's just 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:25.480 way to just involve me from what you're doing is 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:32.560 to give you a DNA sample. Like many others in 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:37.040 this story, Lonnie Dumont's integrity has been questioned. I spoke 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:39.640 to a source who claimed Lonnie once gave an interview 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:43.200 to a major media outlet and scared the reporter so 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:47.720 much that they wondered if he was confessing to Tammy's murder. 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:52.120 It makes sense to be initially suspicious of Lonnie Dumont. 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:56.400 He found the body, and he hesitated about calling it in. 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:01.000 He then offered to help move it, almost guaranteeing some 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.720 of his DNA would be left at the scene. But 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.680 in the end, as far as Lonnie Dumott is concerned, 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:11.160 I have found zero evidence that he had anything to 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:29.720 do with Tammy's a wiki's abduction or murder. Two thousand 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:33.240 and two marked the tenth anniversary of Tammy's death. The 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:37.480 FBI offered a fifty thousand dollars reward for any information 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:41.960 leading to the arrest and conviction and Tammy's kidnapping and murder. 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:46.240 The milestone also led to an onslaught of media coverage, 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:52.040 which in turn provided newly retired ISP investigator Marty McCarthy 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.880 a platform to voice his opinions. All the airtime in 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:59.880 print space that the media gave to Marty's theories about 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:04.560 the eyewitnesses claims regarding Lonnie beer Brod were hard to ignore, 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:09.520 which is why I think the IP and FBI decided 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:13.320 to make a few moves. As the agent in charge, 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:17.199 this was, you know, this case kind of came to 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.720 me with the press guy saying, hey, you know, the 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:23.760 news media wants to do something on this thing. Thomas 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:26.119 Kanner was the special Agent in charge of one of 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:30.520 the FBI's Southern field offices. He was tasked with interviewing 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:34.320 Lonnie beer Brodd's ex wife. At that ten year mark, 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:41.240 he still seemed to be the most logical guy, you know, 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:45.800 And so I said, get her an interviewer again. You know, 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:49.560 I know she's probably been interviewed multiple times for interviewer again, 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:58.360 and then CF she'll submit to a polygraphingstanding Lonnie beer 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:00.600 Brott had died by the time as ex wife to 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:04.080 the polygraph. If she had ever been afraid to speak 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:07.000 up before his death, there was no reason to protect 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:12.760 him any longer. And if anybody could get a confession 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:15.399 or do a polygraph, I mean I would put I 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:18.960 would put my money on this guy. All the places 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:22.000 I've been and all the polygraphers that I've had that worked, 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:26.000 you know, for me, this guy was by far the 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:30.560 dog best. Many might know that polygraphs are not allowed 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:34.440 as evidence in court, but the beauty of polygraphing beer 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.360 Brott's ex wife was that it wasn't for any sort 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:40.800 of court proceeding. It was to gauge whether she was 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.840 telling the truth about not having the green musical watch 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:48.760 and not having any knowledge of her ex husband's involvement 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:54.199 in Tammy's murder. The pre polygraph interview, which can be 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:58.600 far more in depth than the actual polygraph, also gave 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:02.840 the interviewer an opportunity to check her story for inconsistencies. 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:05.359 So I was waiting and waiting and waiting and and 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:08.800 and you know, when he does a polygraph, it's a 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:11.800 it's not a twenty minute operation. So he called me 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:14.920 later in the day and he said, well, it's probably 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:17.600 not what you want to hear. But I ran her 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:21.800 three times. I changed up the questions, you know, we 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:26.040 taught him. We spent hours on you know, the pretests 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:29.040 and just like I would on anything else. And my 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:34.800 estimation as she's telling the truth. Beer Brotzeck's wife also 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:38.200 spoke to the media around this time. In an interview 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:42.240 with the Courier Post newspaper, she stated that her husband 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:46.280 had never given her a musical watch and that she 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:51.359 was puzzled by the origin of the story. What's more, 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:54.240 she said, if she thought for one minute that he 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:58.679 had been involved in Tammy's abduction and murder, quote, I 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:03.880 would have gone straight to the police. Well I think, 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:06.720 you know, I mean, it's always easy to tell the truth, 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:10.680 right when you start making up stories, it'll change over time. 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:12.840 I mean, if you know, if I told you'll lie 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:16.639 today and you came back to me five years later 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:19.760 and asked me, Hey, you know, Tom, you know you 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.720 know ask me the same question, I may not respond 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:25.560 the same way. Right, you might change one little thing. 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:31.040 How often do people get interviewed by either the Illinois 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:34.600 State Please, the Missouri the Highway Patrol world it was 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:38.959 investigetting down there, or the FBI. I mean, that's probably 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:42.560 for most people. Unless you're just a criminal, it's probably 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:45.800 a one time event in your life. You would think 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:50.800 that story would be easy to recite over and over 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:55.320 and over again, much like the ESP and FBI. Back 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:57.800 in two thousand and two, I felt I needed to 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:03.040 speak to Lonnie beer Brott's ex wife, but all my attempts, calls, messages, 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:08.439 even doorknocks went unanswered. My associate producer did manage to 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:12.919 make contact in late twenty twenty two. Lonnie beer Brottzeck's 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:14.960 wife wasn't in a hurry to get off the phone, 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:19.320 though she did ultimately decline to be interviewed for the podcast. 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:24.760 I have no reason not to believe her. It's also 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:29.720 not her obligation to make anyone believe her. She's a 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:33.560 private citizen who's already spoken to police and the media 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:38.680 about what she knows. As for Tammy's watch, the watch 0:21:38.800 --> 0:21:41.480 is still missing. The watches is still out there. It's 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:46.320 still among the list of items that would connect someone 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:53.080 to this investigation. Jeff Padilla was a young detective with 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:56.240 the Illinois State Police in nineteen ninety two, the year 0:21:56.280 --> 0:22:00.200 Tammy was murdered. He was familiar with the case, but 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:04.920 wouldn't get involved until twenty twelve, when he became squad 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:09.520 supervisor over a group of detectives working missing persons and 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:14.760 murder cases in the region. That time, the case was 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:18.960 a bit installed and there hadn't been what I thought 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:23.399 was an appropriate amount of movement on it. So I 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:27.119 assigned myself in a number of other of my detectives 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:30.399 to go back and look at the investigation from the 0:22:30.520 --> 0:22:34.600 very beginning. That meant reinterviewing old witnesses and reviewing the 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:38.360 many theories that had gotten attention over the years. There 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:42.200 was a time where in the heart of this second 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:46.000 like real push in this investigation, where we were getting 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:48.560 a lot of mediate inquiries and there was a lot 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:54.480 of physical evidence that had never been analyzed. As for 0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:59.760 Marty's eyewitness, the woman whose claims fueled rampant speculation about 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:03.840 Annie beer Brot and created a narrative about the whereabouts 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:09.119 of Tammy's watch. Padilla says her story never passed the 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:13.120 smell test. Yeah, that was completely false. And the way 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:16.280 that she identified Lonnie beer Brod was she was going 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:19.560 by on the interstate in the opposite direction while doing 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:25.560 seventy five miles an hour, which I take witness identification 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:28.280 with a huge grain of salt, and it has to 0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:32.359 be backed up with evidence. Even more important is the 0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:35.840 fact that her story about seeing Lonnie bear Brott's wife 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:39.800 wearing a watch similar to Tammy's was nowhere in her 0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:43.520 initial statements the police. By the time she had told 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:47.439 Marty McCarthy her version of events ten years later, the 0:23:47.480 --> 0:23:51.600 information about Tammy's watch had already been made public. So 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:55.679 then Lonnie beer Brod suddenly became a very heavy focus 0:23:55.680 --> 0:23:59.119 of the investigation. You know, he voluntarily came in and 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:02.159 gave blood and DNA samples, and since then we know 0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:06.240 that he was not our offender in this case. Lonnie 0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:10.480 beer Brot was eliminated from our investigation as a suspect. 0:24:11.080 --> 0:24:13.840 Padilla says, that Lonnie beer Brott had been ruled out 0:24:13.880 --> 0:24:18.400 through DNA and blood analysis as early as nineteen ninety three. 0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:22.560 How did Marty not know about this? He wasn't working 0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:26.840 the case, but as an ISP investigator, it's surprising he'd 0:24:26.880 --> 0:24:30.280 be completely kept out of the loop. He was not 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:35.480 was not involved in overall investigative decisions or command decisions 0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:40.800 with regard to the investigation. He alone perpetuated the Lonnie 0:24:40.800 --> 0:24:45.720 beer Brot sort of fantasy as a suspect because he 0:24:45.840 --> 0:24:48.959 was not aware of and rightfully so, he was no 0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:51.159 longer part of the investigation, so he wasn't aware that 0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:58.560 Lonnie had been eliminated. I respect Marty McCarthy's public service 0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:02.840 and his work as a active His many achievements speak 0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:06.199 for themselves. But I was going to have to go 0:25:06.280 --> 0:25:08.760 back to him at some point, provide him with what 0:25:08.840 --> 0:25:11.800 I had developed, and allow him a chance to speak 0:25:11.800 --> 0:25:16.120 to it. Jeff Padilla and the Illinois State Police bear 0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:21.200 some responsibility. More than twenty years after clearing Lonnie bear 0:25:21.280 --> 0:25:24.639 Brought as a suspect in Tammy Ziwiki's murder, he was 0:25:24.720 --> 0:25:28.440 quoted in a news article describing beer Brought as quote 0:25:28.920 --> 0:25:31.760 someone who remains a person of interest because of some 0:25:31.840 --> 0:25:37.440 of the circumstantial information surrounding him end quote. Why did 0:25:37.480 --> 0:25:41.080 investigators allow Lonnie's name to be dragged through the mud 0:25:41.320 --> 0:25:45.000 for decades? I mean he remained at an option because 0:25:45.240 --> 0:25:49.680 the DNA. Certainly that was when DNA was in infancy. 0:25:50.560 --> 0:25:54.840 Many of the tests were entrusted. As Padilla explained, even 0:25:54.880 --> 0:25:58.360 with his new team of investigators re examining the case files, 0:25:59.119 --> 0:26:03.399 not much progress was made in the investigation. So in 0:26:03.480 --> 0:26:08.800 twenty fourteen, law enforcement decided to try a different approach. 0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:14.840 We weren't going to narrow our investigation based on our 0:26:14.920 --> 0:26:19.159 preconceived notions, and that's why, you know, ultimately it was 0:26:19.600 --> 0:26:22.280 really really beneficial to us to take the investigation to 0:26:22.320 --> 0:26:26.120 the VDOX Society in Philadelphia. The VDOX Society is an 0:26:26.119 --> 0:26:30.280 elite group of experts in the criminology field, ranging from 0:26:30.320 --> 0:26:35.479 federal agents to forensic pathologists. Their work is pro bono, 0:26:35.640 --> 0:26:38.160 so there's a limited number of cases they can take 0:26:38.200 --> 0:26:42.160 on each year. Tammy's was one of them. We got 0:26:42.200 --> 0:26:47.040 a lot from them, and in fact, the direction we 0:26:47.080 --> 0:26:52.439 went thereafter was because of the information we had received 0:26:52.440 --> 0:27:04.080 from the VDOX Society. Eugene Francois Vidac was a nineteenth 0:27:04.119 --> 0:27:08.520 century Frenchman and world renowned detective. He got a start 0:27:08.600 --> 0:27:13.399 as a criminal before becoming an informant and eventually an agent. 0:27:14.320 --> 0:27:18.199 His admirers included three forensic experts who founded the VDC 0:27:18.320 --> 0:27:21.399 Society in nineteen ninety and named it in his honor. 0:27:22.320 --> 0:27:26.320 Each month, experts from all fields of criminology meet to 0:27:26.440 --> 0:27:31.359 go through cases presented by police departments from across the country. 0:27:31.520 --> 0:27:34.480 The VDC Society agreeing to look at your case is 0:27:34.520 --> 0:27:39.679 a huge deal and requires lengthy preparation. Investigators need to 0:27:39.720 --> 0:27:43.280 go through every element of the case file, follow up 0:27:43.280 --> 0:27:46.959 on outstanding leads, and make sure they're ready to present 0:27:47.320 --> 0:27:51.440