1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts is a production of iHeartRadio. Throughout the decades 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: I've been covering true crime, I've looked into more than 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: a hundred missing persons and murder cases. I've interviewed scores 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: of law enforcement victims, families, even killers themselves, all to 5 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: gain a better understanding of how investigations are handled and 6 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: the tools law enforcement used to develop information and solve crimes. 7 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: Much has changed over the years, but in the past 8 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: decade or so, I've witnessed a major shift, one that 9 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:45,919 Speaker 1: I hadn't anticipated, the emergence of a new group of investigators, citizens, sleuths. 10 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: And nowhere is that phenomenon more obvious than in Tammy 11 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: Zuwiki's case. Oh there was all kinds of stories, you know, 12 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: You'd read that she was picked up by a stranger, 13 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: some guy in a truck stopped to help her, another 14 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: guy in a pickup truck. Patrick Jones is the founder 15 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: of the Who Killed Tammy's a Wicki Facebook group, a 16 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: passionate collection of Tammy's friends, family members, true crime buffs, 17 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: and citizen investigators. Well, the Facebook page it grew like 18 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,559 Speaker 1: you wouldn't believe. I mean, I was just hoping, Oh, 19 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: maybe we'll get one hundred people, two hundred people, and 20 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: I think today I'm trying to look at it right now, 21 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: We've got over four thousand members on there. Patrick started 22 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: the Facebook group in two thousand and nine. He didn't 23 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: know Tammy, but was drawn to her story and sometimes 24 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: had a picture of Tammy on the front page. And 25 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: I looked at her and I was thinking, I got 26 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: a daughter about the same age. While working my way 27 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: through Tammy's case, I felt that the group warranted a 28 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: closer look. For what it's worth, I'm not a fan 29 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: of online sleuthing. Citizen sleuths have the power to shift 30 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: the narrative in a case. They can interfere with investigations 31 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: accused innocent people of a crime. More than anything, though, 32 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: they can inject themselves into someone else's story, and for 33 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: better or worse, some members of the who Killed Tammy 34 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: Ziwiki Facebook group have succeeded in doing just that. Another 35 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: article came out like thirteen, fourteen years ago whatever it 36 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 1: was about Tammy's case, and I was reading it and 37 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: then I said, you know what, maybe I'll put something 38 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: on Facebook. I'll offer a reward, you know, I think 39 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: I put a thousand dollars reward or something. Today Patrick 40 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: works as a firearms instructor and an engineer at the 41 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: Forest Preserves. Before that, he worked part time as a 42 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: police lieutenant in a village outside Chicago. We had like 43 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: four or five members, which they were all police officers. 44 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: All the guys at the police department jumped down right away, 45 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: you know, as a favorite, so I could build it 46 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: a little and then alone came Robert. Robert was hugely 47 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: instrumental in developing the website with Me or Facebook page. 48 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: Robert cut Lark is someone I met in the earliest 49 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: days of my investigation. You might remember him from the 50 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: first episode. He's the archaeologist who grew up a town 51 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: over from Tammy in New Jersey and has developed a 52 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: close friendship with Joanne Ziwiki over the years. Like Patrick, 53 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: he's also an administrator of the Facebook group. He's dug 54 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: up so much stuff it's unbelievable. On our Facebook page, 55 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: We've got a file section that's just phenomenal. You could 56 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: go through there and read everything about who they've investigated 57 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: over the years, who they've ruled out. And Robert's been 58 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: in contact with the all the various agencies that have 59 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: been helping out FBI, State Police and what have you. 60 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: A lot of good has come from the Facebook group. 61 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: Several of Tammy's old friends and peers are members, which 62 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,119 Speaker 1: made it easy to reach out to them for this podcast. 63 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: Patrick and Robert were also immensely helpful in the earliest 64 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: days of my research, provided me with documents and valuable contacts. 65 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: More than anything, the Who Killed Tammy Zowiki Facebook group 66 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: provides a real sense of community for those morning Tammy 67 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: time and again. I was struck by the effort folks 68 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: like Robert and Patrick put into keeping Tammy's story alive 69 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:39,239 Speaker 1: and finding ways to honor her memory. Mostly, we're talking 70 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: about decent people with good intentions. They want to help 71 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: and they genuinely care about the Ziwiki family. But good 72 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: intentions are often not enough, and in this case, the 73 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 1: Facebook group can sometimes become a place where speculation and 74 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: conspiracy is allowed to exist and ultimately cast out on 75 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: innocent people. When you started the page, were you getting tips? Yeah? 76 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: We actually we were getting What was the first big 77 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: major tip that you got? The biggest thing we ever 78 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: got was that what the hell's his name? The guy 79 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: didn't find a body? Uh Lonnie Dumot Lonnie Damot previously 80 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: on Paper Ghosts. He came in. He was posting like 81 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: a son of a bitch, and then people were all 82 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: of a sudden, everybody was asking questions like you wouldn't believe. 83 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: I think he wanted to confess to something. In my 84 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: opinion that he wants to say, Hey, here's what happened. 85 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: Do you remember the type of watch she was wearing? 86 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: And did the watch play that song ranging Jane Jobs 87 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: came falling on my head she was wearing that watch. Yeah, 88 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: I've done this long time, and I just thought, well, bingle, 89 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: how many coincidence gonna be here? My name MM William Phelps. 90 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: I'm an investigative journalist an author of more than forty 91 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: true crime books. This is season three of Paper Ghosts 92 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: In plain Sight. There has been a cloud of suspicion 93 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: lingering over Lonnie Dumont since the day he discovered Tammy's body. Lonnie, 94 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: you may recall, is the repairman from Missouri who stopped 95 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: his truck to cover his tools back in September of 96 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two and stumbled upon Tammy's body. Like many 97 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: of those interested in Tammy's case, Lonnie joined the Facebook 98 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 1: group in twenty twenty and began answering questions from its members. 99 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: Lonnie dum he got on and he just started acting goofy, 100 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: putting all kinds of stuff out, and we've got screenshots 101 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: of everything that he put out, and he's just to me, 102 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: it seems a little weird with him. Like Patrick, Robert 103 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: Cutlaric is suspicious of Lonnie Dumot, though for different reasons. 104 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: In his view, Lonnie has given varying accounts of how 105 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: and why he came upon Tammy's body. The reasons given 106 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,239 Speaker 1: for him coming off the highway depends on what source 107 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: you read. The earliest reference was that he had stopped 108 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: to relieve himself. Later, in nineteen ninety three, with the 109 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: publication of the People magazine article, it says that, and 110 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: this is coming from the man himself, Lonnie Dumot, that 111 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: he pulled over because he wanted to cover up the 112 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: tools in the back of his vehicle. Now fast forward 113 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: to twenty twenty one. People May Magazine did a television 114 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: production on Tammy's case. They interviewed mister Dumont, and mister 115 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: Dumott said that he got out of his vehicle to 116 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: move his tools into the cabin the vehicle, so we 117 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: have some discrepancies as to what actually was going on there. 118 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: Robert says he doesn't know the origin of the story 119 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: about Lonnie Dumot's stopping to relieve himself. Neither did Lonnie 120 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: when I asked him about it last summer. There's another 121 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: report of you said you stopped to take a piss, 122 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: did you, No, I stopped to get my tools out 123 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: of the back of the truck. There has been a 124 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: lot of energy focused on Lonnie Dumont's recollections from that day, 125 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: some of which were made nearly thirty years after the fact, 126 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: among them the order in which Lonnie and the state 127 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: trooper handled Tammy's body. The original story, as heard from 128 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 1: mister Dumot, was that the police officer was squeamish and 129 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: was nervous about cutting open the blanket, and Lonnie volunteered 130 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: to do it for him, and he says that he 131 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: cut the blanket open and the officer was the one 132 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: who cut the sheet. However, he posted on Facebook in 133 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: a comment the opposite that the officer cut the blanket 134 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: and he cut the sheet. I mentioned all this not 135 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: to discredit anyone, but rather to show the ways in 136 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: which cybersleuthing can become problematic. You can't speculate that a 137 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: guy might be guilty of murder because of a spotty 138 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: recollection from thirty years ago. Lonnie has a vested interest 139 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: in the case, and his presence in the Facebook group 140 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: does not strike me as suspicious in any way. Whatsoever 141 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: he found Tammy's body, it makes sense why he'd want 142 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: to see what was going on with the case. Regardless, 143 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: there are those who continue to believe that Lonnie's involvement 144 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: at the crime scene was intentional, a stealthy way to 145 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: account for his DNA being left at the scene. So 146 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: your gut is that he's got something to do with it. 147 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: I honestly think that. Yes, I don't think that he's 148 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: been rolled out, you know, by the law enforcement, but 149 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: I think he's got something to do it. It's just 150 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: too coincidental. As it turns out, law enforcement would make 151 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: an effort to rule Lonnie Dumot out as a suspect. Hi, 152 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: mister Dumont money and is with the FBI at a 153 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 1: job in Missouri. And when you have an opportunity that 154 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: you please Lonnie, says a case agent from one of 155 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: the FBI's Missouri field offices reached out in twenty twenty 156 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: one to get his version of events and also request 157 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 1: a sample of his DNA. He says, the first time 158 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: he listened to that voicemail, he thought it was a joke. 159 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: I thought that this guy was one of my buddies 160 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: calling me doing a prank. But it wasn't. It actually was. 161 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: When I called him back, he said, I'm I'm out 162 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: at the FBI at Joplin. There's a guy, an investigator 163 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: doing an investigation out of Chicago. And he said, I'm 164 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: doing this interview for him. And then when I met him, 165 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,719 Speaker 1: I met him in a little restaurant and there was 166 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: two of them come out and I'm sitting there and 167 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 1: they come in and he said that that he was 168 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: gonna talk to me, and this other guy sat right 169 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: by us, and all he did was watched me. He 170 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: must have been a profiler. And they sat there and 171 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: talked to me for all quite a while and asked 172 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: me different questions and like what what kind of question? Well, 173 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: they asked me about just pretty much about what you've 174 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: asked me. And he said that anything that I if 175 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: I remembering thing, call him and that would relay the 176 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 1: message to the guy in Chicago. I've spoken to Lonnie 177 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: on several occasions, mainly to hear him tell his story 178 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: multiple times. Time and again. I found his version of 179 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: events to be consistent and entirely plausible. I also learned 180 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: from the Lawrence County Sheriff's office that Lonnie was mentioned 181 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: in their crime scene report. It noted that he was 182 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: a volunteer fireman at the time, which makes sense why 183 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: he would have been asked to assist in moving Tammy's 184 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: body out of the gulch. That same report, however, did 185 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: not mention that Lonnie helped carry the body. This doesn't 186 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: mean he didn't help, only that there's no record of it. 187 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: Lonnie maintains that up until the fall of twenty twenty one, 188 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,239 Speaker 1: when the FBI called him, no one from law enforcement 189 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: had spoke to him since the day he found Tammy's body. 190 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: What did they want from you? They just wanted to 191 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: interview me and talk to me and blood. They took 192 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: us DNA sample And how did they do that? Dwamam 193 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: mouth and why did they say they needed that? They 194 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 1: said they're trying to eliminate everybody from being a suspect. 195 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: And he said, we know that she touched the blanket. 196 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: We know that. But he said that any DNA that 197 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: would be found on her body or her clothes, they 198 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: would be tested against. And since that day, I've never 199 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: heard anything Roman. The fact that this meeting between Lonnie 200 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: and the FBI occurred relatively recently says so much. For one, 201 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: the FBI took Linny's DNA because they believe his story 202 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: or like me, couldn't rule out the possibility that he 203 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: helped move Tammy's body. Also that the Bureau is making 204 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: another run at testing old DNA from Tammy's clothing, her body, 205 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: the blanket, or any additional evidence found at the scene 206 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: and collected throughout the investigation. They said, we've done got 207 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: stuff from their families, so DNA from their families. So 208 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: they when they'd come and talk to me, he is 209 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: probably on you on the list of people to talk to. 210 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: And they said that it that's all they really needed. 211 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: It seems to me that law enforcement is trying to 212 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: produce a match, rule out anyone who could have inadvertently 213 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: left DNA at the scene, or potentially build a genealogy database. 214 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: What's more, the FBI has had Lonnie Dumott's DNA for 215 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: a year and a half and has not made any 216 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: moves to arrest him. The FBI and ISP won't comment 217 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: on an active investigation, but likely if Lonnie was their guy, 218 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: he'd be locked up by now. And so they took 219 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: to DNA And how did you feel about that? Oh, 220 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: it didn't bother me because I mean, I know I 221 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: wasn't part of it, but they got eliminate everybody. And 222 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: I figured that, you know, I could have been a 223 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: crap head and said no, I'm not gonna do it, 224 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: you know. But like I told him this, he's just 225 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: way to just involve me from what you're doing is 226 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: to give you a DNA sample. Like many others in 227 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: this story, Lonnie Dumont's integrity has been questioned. I spoke 228 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: to a source who claimed Lonnie once gave an interview 229 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: to a major media outlet and scared the reporter so 230 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: much that they wondered if he was confessing to Tammy's murder. 231 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: It makes sense to be initially suspicious of Lonnie Dumont. 232 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: He found the body, and he hesitated about calling it in. 233 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: He then offered to help move it, almost guaranteeing some 234 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: of his DNA would be left at the scene. But 235 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: in the end, as far as Lonnie Dumott is concerned, 236 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: I have found zero evidence that he had anything to 237 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: do with Tammy's a wiki's abduction or murder. Two thousand 238 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: and two marked the tenth anniversary of Tammy's death. The 239 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: FBI offered a fifty thousand dollars reward for any information 240 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: leading to the arrest and conviction and Tammy's kidnapping and murder. 241 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: The milestone also led to an onslaught of media coverage, 242 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: which in turn provided newly retired ISP investigator Marty McCarthy 243 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: a platform to voice his opinions. All the airtime in 244 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: print space that the media gave to Marty's theories about 245 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: the eyewitnesses claims regarding Lonnie beer Brod were hard to ignore, 246 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: which is why I think the IP and FBI decided 247 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: to make a few moves. As the agent in charge, 248 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 1: this was, you know, this case kind of came to 249 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: me with the press guy saying, hey, you know, the 250 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: news media wants to do something on this thing. Thomas 251 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: Kanner was the special Agent in charge of one of 252 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: the FBI's Southern field offices. He was tasked with interviewing 253 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: Lonnie beer Brodd's ex wife. At that ten year mark, 254 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: he still seemed to be the most logical guy, you know, 255 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: And so I said, get her an interviewer again. You know, 256 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: I know she's probably been interviewed multiple times for interviewer again, 257 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:58,360 Speaker 1: and then CF she'll submit to a polygraphingstanding Lonnie beer 258 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: Brott had died by the time as ex wife to 259 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: the polygraph. If she had ever been afraid to speak 260 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: up before his death, there was no reason to protect 261 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: him any longer. And if anybody could get a confession 262 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: or do a polygraph, I mean I would put I 263 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: would put my money on this guy. All the places 264 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: I've been and all the polygraphers that I've had that worked, 265 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: you know, for me, this guy was by far the 266 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: dog best. Many might know that polygraphs are not allowed 267 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: as evidence in court, but the beauty of polygraphing beer 268 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: Brott's ex wife was that it wasn't for any sort 269 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: of court proceeding. It was to gauge whether she was 270 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: telling the truth about not having the green musical watch 271 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: and not having any knowledge of her ex husband's involvement 272 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 1: in Tammy's murder. The pre polygraph interview, which can be 273 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: far more in depth than the actual polygraph, also gave 274 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: the interviewer an opportunity to check her story for inconsistencies. 275 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: So I was waiting and waiting and waiting and and 276 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: and you know, when he does a polygraph, it's a 277 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: it's not a twenty minute operation. So he called me 278 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: later in the day and he said, well, it's probably 279 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: not what you want to hear. But I ran her 280 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: three times. I changed up the questions, you know, we 281 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: taught him. We spent hours on you know, the pretests 282 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: and just like I would on anything else. And my 283 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: estimation as she's telling the truth. Beer Brotzeck's wife also 284 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 1: spoke to the media around this time. In an interview 285 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: with the Courier Post newspaper, she stated that her husband 286 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: had never given her a musical watch and that she 287 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: was puzzled by the origin of the story. What's more, 288 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: she said, if she thought for one minute that he 289 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: had been involved in Tammy's abduction and murder, quote, I 290 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 1: would have gone straight to the police. Well I think, 291 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's always easy to tell the truth, 292 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: right when you start making up stories, it'll change over time. 293 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: I mean, if you know, if I told you'll lie 294 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: today and you came back to me five years later 295 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: and asked me, Hey, you know, Tom, you know you 296 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: know ask me the same question, I may not respond 297 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: the same way. Right, you might change one little thing. 298 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: How often do people get interviewed by either the Illinois 299 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: State Please, the Missouri the Highway Patrol world it was 300 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,959 Speaker 1: investigetting down there, or the FBI. I mean, that's probably 301 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: for most people. Unless you're just a criminal, it's probably 302 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: a one time event in your life. You would think 303 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: that story would be easy to recite over and over 304 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: and over again, much like the ESP and FBI. Back 305 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: in two thousand and two, I felt I needed to 306 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: speak to Lonnie beer Brott's ex wife, but all my attempts, calls, messages, 307 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 1: even doorknocks went unanswered. My associate producer did manage to 308 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: make contact in late twenty twenty two. Lonnie beer Brottzeck's 309 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 1: wife wasn't in a hurry to get off the phone, 310 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: though she did ultimately decline to be interviewed for the podcast. 311 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: I have no reason not to believe her. It's also 312 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: not her obligation to make anyone believe her. She's a 313 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: private citizen who's already spoken to police and the media 314 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: about what she knows. As for Tammy's watch, the watch 315 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: is still missing. The watches is still out there. It's 316 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: still among the list of items that would connect someone 317 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: to this investigation. Jeff Padilla was a young detective with 318 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: the Illinois State Police in nineteen ninety two, the year 319 00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 1: Tammy was murdered. He was familiar with the case, but 320 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: wouldn't get involved until twenty twelve, when he became squad 321 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: supervisor over a group of detectives working missing persons and 322 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: murder cases in the region. That time, the case was 323 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: a bit installed and there hadn't been what I thought 324 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: was an appropriate amount of movement on it. So I 325 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: assigned myself in a number of other of my detectives 326 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: to go back and look at the investigation from the 327 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: very beginning. That meant reinterviewing old witnesses and reviewing the 328 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 1: many theories that had gotten attention over the years. There 329 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: was a time where in the heart of this second 330 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: like real push in this investigation, where we were getting 331 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: a lot of mediate inquiries and there was a lot 332 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: of physical evidence that had never been analyzed. As for 333 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: Marty's eyewitness, the woman whose claims fueled rampant speculation about 334 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: Annie beer Brot and created a narrative about the whereabouts 335 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: of Tammy's watch. Padilla says her story never passed the 336 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 1: smell test. Yeah, that was completely false. And the way 337 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: that she identified Lonnie beer Brod was she was going 338 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: by on the interstate in the opposite direction while doing 339 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: seventy five miles an hour, which I take witness identification 340 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: with a huge grain of salt, and it has to 341 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: be backed up with evidence. Even more important is the 342 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: fact that her story about seeing Lonnie bear Brott's wife 343 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: wearing a watch similar to Tammy's was nowhere in her 344 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: initial statements the police. By the time she had told 345 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 1: Marty McCarthy her version of events ten years later, the 346 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: information about Tammy's watch had already been made public. So 347 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 1: then Lonnie beer Brod suddenly became a very heavy focus 348 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: of the investigation. You know, he voluntarily came in and 349 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 1: gave blood and DNA samples, and since then we know 350 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: that he was not our offender in this case. Lonnie 351 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: beer Brot was eliminated from our investigation as a suspect. 352 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: Padilla says, that Lonnie beer Brott had been ruled out 353 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 1: through DNA and blood analysis as early as nineteen ninety three. 354 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: How did Marty not know about this? He wasn't working 355 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: the case, but as an ISP investigator, it's surprising he'd 356 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: be completely kept out of the loop. He was not 357 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: was not involved in overall investigative decisions or command decisions 358 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: with regard to the investigation. He alone perpetuated the Lonnie 359 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: beer Brot sort of fantasy as a suspect because he 360 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,959 Speaker 1: was not aware of and rightfully so, he was no 361 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: longer part of the investigation, so he wasn't aware that 362 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: Lonnie had been eliminated. I respect Marty McCarthy's public service 363 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: and his work as a active His many achievements speak 364 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 1: for themselves. But I was going to have to go 365 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: back to him at some point, provide him with what 366 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: I had developed, and allow him a chance to speak 367 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 1: to it. Jeff Padilla and the Illinois State Police bear 368 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: some responsibility. More than twenty years after clearing Lonnie bear 369 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: Brought as a suspect in Tammy Ziwiki's murder, he was 370 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: quoted in a news article describing beer Brought as quote 371 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: someone who remains a person of interest because of some 372 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: of the circumstantial information surrounding him end quote. Why did 373 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: investigators allow Lonnie's name to be dragged through the mud 374 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: for decades? I mean he remained at an option because 375 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: the DNA. Certainly that was when DNA was in infancy. 376 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: Many of the tests were entrusted. As Padilla explained, even 377 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,360 Speaker 1: with his new team of investigators re examining the case files, 378 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: not much progress was made in the investigation. So in 379 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, law enforcement decided to try a different approach. 380 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: We weren't going to narrow our investigation based on our 381 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 1: preconceived notions, and that's why, you know, ultimately it was 382 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: really really beneficial to us to take the investigation to 383 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: the VDOX Society in Philadelphia. The VDOX Society is an 384 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: elite group of experts in the criminology field, ranging from 385 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:35,479 Speaker 1: federal agents to forensic pathologists. Their work is pro bono, 386 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 1: so there's a limited number of cases they can take 387 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: on each year. Tammy's was one of them. We got 388 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: a lot from them, and in fact, the direction we 389 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:52,439 Speaker 1: went thereafter was because of the information we had received 390 00:26:52,440 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: from the VDOX Society. Eugene Francois Vidac was a nineteenth 391 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: century Frenchman and world renowned detective. He got a start 392 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: as a criminal before becoming an informant and eventually an agent. 393 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,199 Speaker 1: His admirers included three forensic experts who founded the VDC 394 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: Society in nineteen ninety and named it in his honor. 395 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: Each month, experts from all fields of criminology meet to 396 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: go through cases presented by police departments from across the country. 397 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: The VDC Society agreeing to look at your case is 398 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 1: a huge deal and requires lengthy preparation. Investigators need to 399 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: go through every element of the case file, follow up 400 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,959 Speaker 1: on outstanding leads, and make sure they're ready to present 401 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 1: and defend their work to VDC members. We were only 402 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 1: the second group from the Illinis State Police to ever 403 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 1: presented to the VDAX Society. Jeff Paedia says the group 404 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: helped change the IPS approach to Tammy's case. We were 405 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 1: had a number of dead ends until we we spoke 406 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: to the VDOC Society. They provided us with insight into, 407 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 1: for example, the wound pattern and evidence that were in 408 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: the crime, the autopsy photos, the group's theory about the 409 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: nature of tammy Stab wounds, piqued my interest. Several members 410 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: of law enforcement have told me the seven stab wounds 411 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: around Tammy's heart were not methodical. Members of the VDOX 412 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: Society had a different opinion, and sitting in a room 413 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: with you know, one hundred highly experienced scientists, forensic scientists, corners, detectives, 414 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: and psychiatrists and psychologists involved in criminal investigations, so that 415 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: that was pointed out to us that that was likely 416 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: there was a pattern to the stab wounds. The group 417 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: also had a different opinion about how long Tammy's body 418 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: had been out on the roadside before it was discovered. 419 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: Two people, Lonnie Dumott and a police source who helped 420 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: move Tammy's body back in nineteen ninety two, both claimed 421 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: that she appeared to be in an advanced state of decomposition. 422 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: The officer I spoke with even said that when he 423 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: went to help pick up the body bag, Tammy's body 424 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: nearly came apart. I mean that may have been his impression, 425 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: but she was not. No, she was not that decomposed. 426 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: Like that's some of the misinformation that's out there. One 427 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: of the real stumpers in the investigation was that, you know, 428 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: she was missing for all that time, but she was 429 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: not that decomposed. She was certainly recognizable. Padilla says he 430 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: and other investigators can't be exactly sure how long Tammy 431 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: was dead before she was discovered, nor can he officially 432 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: rule out one of the more wild theories in the case, 433 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: the idea that her body was kept in a refrigerated truck. 434 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: What he and many of his colleagues who are actively 435 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: working the case are an agreement about is that it's 436 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: unlikely that Tammy was on the roadway for days on end. 437 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: That remains an open question and something that we've struggled 438 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: with throughout the investigation. They did bring into the famous 439 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: forensic entomologists from Believe he's from the University of Indiana 440 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: and he went through He's the one that gave the 441 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: age of the of the of the flies to be 442 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: able to give us an idea how long she had 443 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: been out there, which also supported the fact that she 444 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: was not had not been out there very long. Based 445 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: on the life of a flight the blue bottle fly cycle, 446 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: it may have been a day or a day and 447 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: a half. Taking into account what the VDOC experts found. 448 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: One theory is that Tammy may have been kept a 449 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: life at least a week after her abduction. I never 450 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: mentioned that to missus Zwicky because I never wanted, you know, 451 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: my supposition. You know, it's bad enough what she had 452 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: gone through, and for me to suppose something like that 453 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: just because it's a possibility that didn't you know, I 454 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: never wanted to say that her until one hundred percent 455 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: knew that may have been the case. It's a deeply 456 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: troubling idea, though other evidence in the case does seem 457 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: to support the theory. You know, there was an analysis 458 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: of the food that was in her stomach, so we 459 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: know that she had a meal which we had the 460 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: receipts for, just before she broke down. Padilla is referring 461 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: to the Hearty's fast food chain where Tammy picked up 462 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: some lunch. Many have thought the fact that she had 463 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: undigested food in her stomach was a clear indicator she'd 464 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: been killed right away, but scientists who looked at the 465 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: case think it's possible that her parasympathetic system, the part 466 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: of the nervous system that controls things like rest and digestion, 467 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: was overwhelmed by the stress of the situation. More simply put, 468 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: her body was stuck in flight mode and unable to 469 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: do much else. Those same scientists also said they couldn't 470 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: rule out the possibility that Tammy's killer kept her somewhere 471 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: and fed her during that time period. So one of 472 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: the aspects was the food that had remained in her 473 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: stomach when her body was recovered. So you would think 474 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: a meal that you ate today is going to be 475 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: completely digested nine days from hour seven days from hour 476 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: five days, really, you know within you would think within 477 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: twenty four hours. However, we debated the timeline based on 478 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: when her body was recovered there was still undigested food 479 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: in her stomach, and so how to explain that. Investigators 480 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: like Padia have pushed back against the theory that Tammy's 481 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: body was in an advanced state of decomposition, but she 482 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: had been outside for a significant amount of time that 483 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: it was difficult to know exactly what happened. For example, 484 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: Padilla says it was almost impossible to tell whether Tammy 485 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: was sexually assaulted. It was something the esp did initially 486 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: look into in the nine but the technology wasn't as 487 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: advanced then as it is today, and there was an 488 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: initial positive positive indication for DNA on a vaginal swab 489 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: that was later determined to be a false positive. There 490 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: was never any seaman collected. There was never any seminal 491 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: fluid connected. I mean she was fully clothed, her T 492 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: shirt was on, her braws on, her panties were on correctly, 493 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: her shorts were on. There was no appearance of sexual assault. 494 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 1: Not that doesn't mean that there wasn't sexual activity. To me, 495 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: the question of whether or not Tammy's murder was a 496 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: sex crime could play a vital role in searching for 497 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: viable suspects. Quite often for the offender, sex crimes have 498 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: very little to do with our own ideas of traditional 499 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: sexual acts, and so we always had the potential that 500 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,719 Speaker 1: this was a sex related and so that's always been 501 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: you know, been out there and then that, to my knowledge, 502 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 1: that remains possibility. The VDOX Society floated the theory that 503 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: Tammy could have been unconscious when she was stabbed, and 504 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: that the act of stabbing her was a way to 505 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 1: wake her up, like a sternam rub. And then and 506 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 1: then the one is the one is deep enough where 507 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 1: it's not in her sternum. It goes between between the 508 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: ribs and punctures her pericardial sack and she ends up 509 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: dying from that, And was there a toxicology report done, 510 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: any presence of any type of drugs in her system 511 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: that he could have used. Yeah, I mean we thought 512 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: about like if he used chloroform or something like that. 513 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,280 Speaker 1: I believe we were told at the time that nothing 514 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: like that would have remained in her system. And it's 515 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,359 Speaker 1: not like today's roof and all or or something more 516 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: powerful where it would stay in her system. Basically, the 517 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,280 Speaker 1: chloroform was used through you know, through a soaked rag. 518 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: She would be knocked unconscious and then by the time 519 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: she woke up, all of that would be the chloroform 520 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: would be out of her system. A forensic psychiatrist told 521 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 1: me years ago that a knife can be what he 522 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: called a surrogate penis to compensate for sexual dysfunction. Yes, 523 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: we we also thought that the puncture that killed Tammy 524 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 1: may have been inadvertent in the process, so that the 525 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: series of stab wounds in the center of her chest, 526 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: which were all very close. It was the size of 527 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: a pipe plate. So if somebody's fighting, you're not going 528 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: to get you know, shallow depth stab wounds in a 529 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: pipe plate, right, you know, if I'm trying to stab you. 530 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: You're gonna be fighting back. You're gonna get stabbed in 531 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 1: the hand, in the arm and the forearm and the 532 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: elbow and the you know, in the your bicep, your 533 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,720 Speaker 1: trisep I'm maybe going to get you in the chest. 534 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: But these were, you know, so these were very different. 535 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: Padia says. The information from the Vdox Society changed the 536 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: ISP's direction of the case. The group helped them identify 537 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: new pools of suspects and more importantly, potential new sources 538 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 1: of DNA which they could go on to test and 539 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: use to create genealogical profiles, and as often as the 540 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: case with active investigations, new developments are ongoing for the 541 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: ISP and for myself. After hearing the first couple episodes 542 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 1: from this season, a detective from a neighboring town from 543 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 1: where Tammy went missing contacted me with information if you 544 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: had heard along with a new suspect, someone who checked 545 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: nearly every box and Tammy's a Wiki's murder and was 546 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: found in possession of what some may call a trophy. 547 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Paper Ghosts, the body was 548 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: it's obviously signs of you know, just brutal almost like 549 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 1: a tortuous saying that he had did her. It was 550 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: she was bound in duct tape. A couple of local 551 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: FBI agents came to my house and took a DNA 552 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: swab for me. I first called Joanne and we have 553 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: this discussion about this is our one shot. You know, 554 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: we may not get it again if we agree to 555 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: do this. If you are enjoying Paper Ghosts, please listen 556 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: to my other podcast, Crossing the Line with m William Phelps, 557 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: where I use the same storytelling elements you've heard in 558 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:59,280 Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts and cover missing person and murder cases. Paper 559 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: Ghosts is written and executive produced by me and William 560 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: Phelps and iHeart executive producer Christina Everett. Additional writing by 561 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: our supervising producer Julia Weaver. Our associate producer is Darby Masters, 562 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: Audio editing and mixing by Christian Bowman and Abu Zafar. 563 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: Our series theme number four four two is written and 564 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom Mullen. For more podcasts 565 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 566 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.