Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio News.
Speaker 2: We've got to recognize that the recession of democracy is
Speaker 2: a phenomenon and the international rule of law is in
Speaker 2: retreat as well.
Speaker 1: David Milliband, once a top British politician and now running
Speaker 1: one of the world's largest aid organizations, I think was
Speaker 1: the elephant in the room in this conversation is the
Speaker 1: United States.
Speaker 2: What comes to my mind is that the US was
Speaker 2: the anchor of the global system. Didn't mean that it
Speaker 2: played a role in every part of it, didn't mean
Speaker 2: that it got everything right, but it was the anchor.
Speaker 2: And the anchor has been pulled up avour.
Speaker 1: From Bloomberg Weekend, this is the Michelle Hussein Show. I'm
Speaker 1: Michelle Hussein. I'm sure there's never been an easy time
Speaker 1: to run an aid agency, but this moment feels particularly charged.
Speaker 1: There are millions of people around the world in desperate need,
Speaker 1: and at the same time, powerful governments are cutting back
Speaker 1: on their giving. That's the world that David Milliband has
Speaker 1: to navigate every day. He's been running the International Rescue
Speaker 1: Committee for more than a decade now. It's a New
Speaker 1: York based organization. It works in the US and around
Speaker 1: the world. And he came to the job as a politician.
Speaker 1: He'd been Britain's Foreign secretary, the top diplomat, seen as
Speaker 1: a future prime minister, and then he had a shock
Speaker 1: in twenty ten when in a Labor leadership election his
Speaker 1: party chose his brother over him. That's a long time
Speaker 1: ago now, and he has built a new career with
Speaker 1: energy and passion. But his old friends in Labor are
Speaker 1: now in power in the UK and that government, like others,
Speaker 1: is cutting back on foreign aid. So obviously, when he
Speaker 1: came into the studio in Life London, I wanted to
Speaker 1: know how he feels about that. There is, as you
Speaker 1: might expect, British political chat in this conversation, and David
Speaker 1: Millibound also talks about his old boss, Tony Blair. I'd
Speaker 1: also been thinking though about his background, and it's linked
Speaker 1: to his work now, how his parents, both Jewish, had
Speaker 1: narrow escapes from Nazi occupied Europe as children, and that's
Speaker 1: where this conversation begins.
Speaker 2: My dad's family story involved a lot of trauma and tragedy.
Speaker 2: But he came to the UK in nineteen forty sixteen
Speaker 2: year old became a student. He thought it was ridiculous
Speaker 2: to be studying in Cambridge instead of fighting fascism, so
Speaker 2: he joined the Royal Navy, and despite the trauma there
Speaker 2: and he was not a sort of himself as a
Speaker 2: heroic figure in the war effort. There was a lot
Speaker 2: of talk about it. There was a lot of talk
Speaker 2: about how his mother and sister survived a call to
Speaker 2: report to Brussels railway station, where many of their relatives
Speaker 2: did and were never seen again.
Speaker 1: And he had just got out literally in the last
Speaker 1: chance till his father's chance.
Speaker 2: His mother and sister were saved effectively by a Catholic
Speaker 2: family south of Brussels. So on his side there was
Speaker 2: more discussion, including of forty three family members that he
Speaker 2: lost in the Holocaust. On my mother's side, she found
Speaker 2: it much more difficult to talk about it. In fact,
Speaker 2: she did didn't talk about it.
Speaker 1: Did She spend much of the war in hiding d
Speaker 1: She lived through Nazi occupation.
Speaker 2: She was younger, so she was born in nineteen thirty four.
Speaker 2: My dad was born in nineteen twenty four, and so
Speaker 2: for her hidden in a convent first of all, hidden
Speaker 2: then by a family that they knew in Warsaw, so
Speaker 2: it was and then she lost her father in a
Speaker 2: concentration camp, and her mother sent her just as a
Speaker 2: twelve year old to the UK in nineteen forty six
Speaker 2: on her own to say was stay as part of
Speaker 2: a group of Jewish kids who were sent actually orphan.
Speaker 1: Kids start a new life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that for her it was just
Speaker 2: too the trauma was too great, so she didn't talk
Speaker 2: about it. So I think I once wrote, the first
Speaker 2: refugees I ever met were my parents, and that's the truth.
Speaker 2: And they did want to give us the security that
Speaker 2: they didn't have. But there was this slightly bifurcated. One
Speaker 2: part of the story filled in, another part of the
Speaker 2: story less filled in. Ironically, when I went to apply
Speaker 2: to be the CEO of the International Rescue Committee, they said,
Speaker 2: why do you want this job? You're in politics at
Speaker 2: the moment, I was a backbench MP. I said, well, one,
Speaker 2: I like really difficult problems and how you deliver humanitarian
Speaker 2: aid in Syria between the ASTAD and government, the Russians,
Speaker 2: branches of ALCAI. It is a really difficult problem we
Speaker 2: want to work on that. I'd like to work on
Speaker 2: difficult problems. Secondly, I said, an organization founded by Albert
Speaker 2: Einstein in the nineteen thirties. You don't get better shoulders
Speaker 2: to stand on than that founded by alber Einstein, who'd
Speaker 2: written letters to Ellen Roosevelt pleading with her to persuade
Speaker 2: her husband, the President, to let Jews and others from
Speaker 2: Europe come into America and failed in that, and so
Speaker 2: set up the International Rescue Committee really as a response
Speaker 2: to that. But then thirdly, I said, my parents were
Speaker 2: both refugees, and so some of the clients of the
Speaker 2: International Rescue Committee are people who fled across borders. Others
Speaker 2: are still stuck in war zones. And so I felt
Speaker 2: in some way, I guess I was closing a bit
Speaker 2: of a circle, helping people of different generation, different religion probably,
Speaker 2: but whose circumstances I could at least relate to through
Speaker 2: the experience of my parents.
Speaker 1: And it's absolutely understandable that that trauma that your mother experienced,
Speaker 1: that it was very difficult for her to talk about it.
Speaker 1: Did you just understand that and navigate around it, or
Speaker 1: do you remember asking her and trying to find out.
Speaker 2: I think we must have picked up the vibes. I
Speaker 2: think I don't remember doing the equivalent of a Bloomberg
Speaker 2: or Today program interview, trying to pump her the for
Speaker 2: the answers. Her mother was still alive. I remember my grandmother,
Speaker 2: but obviously different people take it in different ways and
Speaker 2: come through learning different lessons.
Speaker 1: I guess she named you, didn't she after her father?
Speaker 1: Your grandfather, Your murdered grandfather was David.
Speaker 2: Yes, he was David Kozak. And actually there was a
Speaker 2: certain element of closure, including for her. In twenty sixteen,
Speaker 2: out of the blue, I got an email from a
Speaker 2: German voluntary historical society saying, we think we've now concluded
Speaker 2: our work about the Heilfingen concentration camp, and we're convinced
Speaker 2: that we've now located the records that show that your
Speaker 2: grandfather was brought here from Auschwitz in November nineteen forty four,
Speaker 2: and he was killed in January nineteen forty five. And
Speaker 2: we've done that for many of those who lost their
Speaker 2: lives here, and we're going to have a ceremony to
Speaker 2: mark this place. And so I was able to go
Speaker 2: with Brotherred and with my mother and her sister to finally,
Speaker 2: sixty years later, seventy years later, mark the the loss
Speaker 2: of her father.
Speaker 1: How did you feel standing there?
Speaker 2: I felt the weight of terrible trauma. Really, I looked
Speaker 2: at my mother who was ten years old when she
Speaker 2: lost her father. She hadn't seen him for four years,
Speaker 2: and you just think, there but for the grace of God. Really,
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a feeling of the emptiness on one
Speaker 2: side and the fortune on the other.
Speaker 1: And also January nineteen forty five, when camps are being
Speaker 1: liberated elsewhere, I mean, it's nearly at the end.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's obviously far from the only story of
Speaker 2: this kind, so one doesn't want to absorb it as
Speaker 2: a personal story.
Speaker 1: But I wondered, you do you think about this heritage
Speaker 1: when you come face to face with people in desperate situations,
Speaker 1: which you do.
Speaker 2: You don't need family heritage for your head and your
Speaker 2: heart to just bond with that person in a really
Speaker 2: I think profound and way. And so I think that
Speaker 2: I wouldn't want to overplay that. There is one element though,
Speaker 2: which maybe relates to something we'll talk about later. Whenever
Speaker 2: any of us grew up, we think what we're experiencing
Speaker 2: is normal. And I grew up in a relatively middle
Speaker 2: class family in the nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties in London,
Speaker 2: in Leeds, and that seemed like the norm. We lived
Speaker 2: in a democratic country, we live in the country of liberties.
Speaker 2: With all that's going on in the world today, suddenly
Speaker 2: the period nineteen forty five to two thousand and twenty
Speaker 2: six in Western Europe, and certainly the period of the
Speaker 2: Cold War and the immediate post Cold War doesn't look
Speaker 2: like the norm. It looks like the exception. And so
Speaker 2: these questions that are being raised by all sorts of
Speaker 2: people about remembering that it's a narrow corridor, the one
Speaker 2: between a state that's too strong and is dictatorial and
Speaker 2: a state that's too weak and you've got anarchy. I
Speaker 2: was lucky enough to grow up in this narrow corridor.
Speaker 1: Well, as it happens, speaking of how the world has changed,
Speaker 1: I found myself reading back a speech you gave in
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven when you were British Foreign Secretary,
Speaker 1: and it's well, it's fascinating to read it now, and
Speaker 1: I'm not doing it in a kind of hindsight is
Speaker 1: a wonderful thing kind of way.
Speaker 2: Hope I had a bit of foresights in there.
Speaker 1: Well, you'll certainly there is much to celebrate. You say,
Speaker 1: there are fewer countries at war than ever before, more trade,
Speaker 1: more travel, more connections around the globe, aspiration unleashed. Do
Speaker 1: you remember standing there on that stage and feeling like
Speaker 1: there was so much that Britain could do on the
Speaker 1: world stage.
Speaker 2: Well, I remember standing that. I don't remember what I
Speaker 2: said quite in anything like the detail that you. I remember.
Speaker 2: It was the first time I think I spoken to
Speaker 2: lay body conferences from Minister. It was still a optimistic time.
Speaker 2: It was before the financial crisis. It was after the
Speaker 2: really difficult problems in Iraq. Afghanistan was very difficult, but
Speaker 2: there was still a feeling. It was after Vladimir Putin's
Speaker 2: Munich Security Conference speech in February two thousand and seven
Speaker 2: when he said that the collapse of the Soviet Union
Speaker 2: was the greatest catastrophe of the twentieth century. So there
Speaker 2: were some the drums were beating, but I think that
Speaker 2: there was still a sense of a tide of history.
Speaker 2: Remember you'd got the enormous wave of democratization of the
Speaker 2: nineteen nineties, never mind the release of Nelson Mandela and
Speaker 2: the end of apartheid, and the global system had just
Speaker 2: united behind the idea of the responsibility to protect, which
Speaker 2: was the idea if states were oppressing their own citizens,
Speaker 2: it wasn't just their business, and that state sovereignty was
Speaker 2: a foundation of the international system.
Speaker 1: Age intervention, so were human rights. Yeah, of course it
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been that great if you were listening to
Speaker 1: that speech and you were in Iraqi or afghan civilian.
Speaker 1: I wondered, though, even as you look back, and even
Speaker 1: as we make this contrast, whether you think Mark Carney
Speaker 1: was right when he at Davos talked about the idea
Speaker 1: of the rules based international order being partially false. You
Speaker 1: were at Davos yourself that there were always exceptions to this,
Speaker 1: There was a version of mitis right then as well.
Speaker 2: It was a very significant and very important speech, And
Speaker 2: I think not just that we should recognize that he
Speaker 2: was correct to call out that the rules based order
Speaker 2: operated with more than you use the word exceptions. I
Speaker 2: think that's probably generous. I wrote a piece in Foreign
Speaker 2: Affairs two and a half years ago which said that
Speaker 2: the Ukraine War had united the West but divided us
Speaker 2: from the rest, And I asked why did it divide
Speaker 2: us from the rest? And the reason was that for
Speaker 2: the rest, which are democratic countries like India and South
Speaker 2: Africa and also undemocratic countries. They saw the emphasis on
Speaker 2: territorial integrity, on sovereignty as being given to an honored
Speaker 2: in the Ukraine case, but not honored in enough other cases.
Speaker 2: And there's a range of other ways in which.
Speaker 1: The rules based shooting Iraq, I have to say because
Speaker 1: I was in South Asia when the all invasion of
Speaker 1: Ukraine took place and I heard exactly this, your country
Speaker 1: was part of an invasion.
Speaker 2: And of course two wrongs don't make it right, but
Speaker 2: still it's right to say that it was honored in
Speaker 2: the breach as well as in the observance the idea
Speaker 2: of a rules based or Now the question then is
Speaker 2: do you want to correct the breaches or do you
Speaker 2: want to dispense with the honoring. And I still think
Speaker 2: that the idea that alongside the rights of states, there
Speaker 2: are rights of individuals, which was the essential lesson that
Speaker 2: the post war pioneers took from the inter war period
Speaker 2: and from the rest of history. That's still an important lesson.
Speaker 1: I think was the elephant in the room in this
Speaker 1: conversation is something directly about the United States. That is
Speaker 1: the big change, isn't it in the last year.
Speaker 2: Well, it's not the only change. It's the biggest change yet,
Speaker 2: and it's the biggest change in the last year. In
Speaker 2: the national security strategy that the Trump administration had put out,
Speaker 2: they talk about themselves as America will no longer be Atlas,
Speaker 2: quote unquote propping up the global system. That's not the
Speaker 2: what came to my mind. What comes to my mind
Speaker 2: is that the US was the anchor of global system.
Speaker 2: Didn't mean that it played a role in every part
Speaker 2: of it, didn't mean that it got everything right, but
Speaker 2: it was the anchor. And the anchor has been pulled
Speaker 2: up avowedly. The Trump administration are very consistent. They said
Speaker 2: in the campaign, we don't believe in this role for America.
Speaker 2: But I'm afraid it's not only the US. We've got
Speaker 2: to recognize that the recession of democracy is a phenomenon
Speaker 2: such that now there are more autocracies than democracies in
Speaker 2: the world today. That's significant. And then the international rule
Speaker 2: of law is in retreat as well, and so the
Speaker 2: rights that were given to individuals in the UN Charter
Speaker 2: and in Associated Conventions are in retreat. And so I
Speaker 2: think this dual process, both of the international system and
Speaker 2: domestically is worth calling out.
Speaker 1: And you live in the US. You live in New York.
Speaker 1: You made it your home since you began leading the
Speaker 1: IRC twelve years ago. Twelve years ago. What are the
Speaker 1: conversations you have behind the scenes. Do you have any
Speaker 1: one in the Trump administration that you speak to.
Speaker 2: Well, we talk to people in and around the administration.
Speaker 1: We knew yourself. Yeah, you've got that kind of access.
Speaker 2: I've talked to Yeah, but I don't want to exaggerate it.
Speaker 2: We've had a partnership with the US government for a
Speaker 2: very long time. I think that there's a very strong
Speaker 2: feeling that they've got a mandate for what they self
Speaker 2: describe as a revolution in America's role in the world,
Speaker 2: where they want to think globally in economics, but they're
Speaker 2: not going to think globally in politics. They're going to
Speaker 2: think about the Western hemisphere in politics. And that's a
Speaker 2: very big change. And their messages get used to it.
Speaker 2: This is the new dispensation that's been.
Speaker 1: And what can you say in response? What's the way
Speaker 1: that you can make the case.
Speaker 2: I make the case that it's in the strategic interest
Speaker 2: as well as the moral interest. If you say to people,
Speaker 2: there are forty five million children under the age of
Speaker 2: who are acutely malnourished in the world today. There's no
Speaker 2: one in the Trumpe adminisration who says, oh, that's a
Speaker 2: good thing. That's not the response that you get. They say,
Speaker 2: we're going to have to find better ways of reaching
Speaker 2: those people, more efficient ways of reaching those people, more
Speaker 2: effective ways, more impactful, and more innovative ways of reaching
Speaker 2: those people. And so we try and find that landing
Speaker 2: zone for the conversation we have with them.
Speaker 1: And I do want to talk about those ideas because
Speaker 1: they're obviously very pressing, and I also want to talk
Speaker 1: about the countries that are on your latest emergency watch list,
Speaker 1: the crises of twenty twenty six. But you mentioned the
Speaker 1: work that you have done with previous administrations as the
Speaker 1: International Rescue Committee. A lot of that was around people
Speaker 1: coming across the southern border and arrangements for them, provision
Speaker 1: for them. What do you think of the way that
Speaker 1: ICE has been behaving lately, the way that immigration rules
Speaker 1: controls are being enforced.
Speaker 2: Well, just to be clear, we've been a major partner
Speaker 2: of the US government on refugee resettlement, which is the
Speaker 2: aug organized transfer after very extensive vetting of people from
Speaker 2: around the world to the US over the last well
Speaker 2: since the nineteen eighty Refugee Act, and actually it was
Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan who admitted more refugees to America on that
Speaker 2: route than any other president, and that's been stopped, so
Speaker 2: that partnership is over. That program has been wound up.
Speaker 2: We do also serve asylum seekers and migrants whove crossed
Speaker 2: the border. We also have our own staff who have
Speaker 2: got legal status and then are allowed to work. We
Speaker 2: don't work in Minnesota, just to be clear that we're
Speaker 2: in seventeen states, but not in the state of Minnesota,
Speaker 2: so I can't speak to the details of that. What's
Speaker 2: clearly going on there is that all of the tensions
Speaker 2: in America are exploding around this issue today. And what
Speaker 2: I know from the people that we serve and the
Speaker 2: people that we employ is that they've fled real danger.
Speaker 2: That's how they've got their assign and claim processed and
Speaker 2: being given the right to work. And they also are
Speaker 2: living with a question mark about their own status and
Speaker 2: whether or not their own story is going to be believed,
Speaker 2: and that creates a lot of fear, a lot of anxiety.
Speaker 2: I also want to acknowledge that in the most recent
Speaker 2: Minnesotan cases, we've been talking about American citizens. The issues
Speaker 2: in respect of ICE are about American citizens, not just
Speaker 2: assign seks and refugees.
Speaker 1: Let's talk then about the countries that you've put on
Speaker 1: your emergency watch list, like going into this new year,
Speaker 1: the tenes that you think the world twenty Okay, I
Speaker 1: was on a list of the top test where clearly
Speaker 1: they're not the only ones. The two crisis you put
Speaker 1: right at the top, Sudan and the occupied Palestinian territory.
Speaker 1: I was looking at the complexity of these, one Sudan
Speaker 1: being a conflict in which more than ten other countries
Speaker 1: are involved, the other one involving the Palestinians being generational.
Speaker 1: These appear so intractable. Is the only thing you can
Speaker 1: do to deal with the immediate need, rather than have
Speaker 1: any role in finding the ways to end these.
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, in short, remediation of desperate suffering is
Speaker 2: our business. Health or transanitation, nutrition, livelihoods, protection of women
Speaker 2: from sexual violence, recovery of women from sexual violence. That's
Speaker 2: our business. We plead guilty to treating the symptoms. By
Speaker 2: treating the symptoms, I would add, you can sometimes prevent
Speaker 2: further destabilization down the road, because the one thing you
Speaker 2: can guarantee if you don't tend to humanitary crisis, it
Speaker 2: reinforces itself and produces further instability.
Speaker 1: But you personally, when you go to these places and
Speaker 1: you sit with people and you hear their stories, it's
Speaker 1: such an important part of your work. It gives you
Speaker 1: that first hand experience. You then go into places where
Speaker 1: powerful people are and you can say I've seen this
Speaker 1: with my own eyes. But be honest about how it
Speaker 1: feels to walk away from that. Do you also feel
Speaker 1: relieved sometimes to be able to walk away?
Speaker 2: I mean, actually, my team will tell you I want
Speaker 2: to spend more time talking to the clients because clients
Speaker 2: those light being the people in need, and more time
Speaker 2: talking to our staff who are often also in need.
Speaker 2: So is your employee employ in that exactly? I mean,
Speaker 2: We've got five hundred people working for us in Soudan,
Speaker 2: four hundred and eighty five of them are Sudanese. We've
Speaker 2: got people who used to work for the Bank of
Speaker 2: Kartoum who are now working for US as humanitar and
Speaker 2: aid workers. I don't want to sound cheesy about it,
Speaker 2: but the courage, the tenacity, the ability to laugh sometimes
Speaker 2: as well as to cry. I mean, that's the most
Speaker 2: inspiring thing. Someone once said, if you look at the statistics,
Speaker 2: you get depressed. If you talk to the people, you
Speaker 2: have hope.
Speaker 1: I agree with you. I've seen it as a journalist.
Speaker 1: But I also know that there is that privilege of
Speaker 1: being able to walk away, and there are these moments
Speaker 1: which just make you think, I can't explain why, you know,
Speaker 1: my life is so fundamentally different. It's like it's the
Speaker 1: luck of the luck of the.
Speaker 2: Draw, of course, so you can explain it. I mean
Speaker 2: that that's the.
Speaker 1: I can't deal with it, That's what I mean. Like,
Speaker 1: do you grapple with that or is it so much
Speaker 1: a part of your work that this this is what
Speaker 1: you have to But.
Speaker 2: You remember the stories, you feel the sense of tragedy.
Speaker 2: But I'll never forget The first trip I did with
Speaker 2: the interns for Rice Community was to go and meet
Speaker 2: Syrian refugees in Jordan. And I went to talk to
Speaker 2: a group of women and I couldn't believe it. You know,
Speaker 2: there was literally first what I was a man going
Speaker 2: into all women's group. They wanted to talk to me.
Speaker 2: They wanted to cry in front of me. They wanted
Speaker 2: to tell each of their stories, and I thought, my god,
Speaker 2: this is you know what these people are going through?
Speaker 2: And then I said to them, do any of you
Speaker 2: think you'll ever go back to Syria? And suddenly these
Speaker 2: beaming smiles came through the tears, the sense that they've
Speaker 2: not given up. So what conceivable grounds did I have
Speaker 2: to do you.
Speaker 1: Have any idea where that group are now?
Speaker 2: Some have gone back to Syria. A million people have
Speaker 2: gone back to Syria. The ones in Jordan. I don't
Speaker 2: know those specific ones that that there have been returns
Speaker 2: to Syria from Jordan. Of course, that doesn't mean you
Speaker 2: overcome the loss or you don't then go and find
Speaker 2: terrible further loss, because.
Speaker 1: I've struggled with that part too, Keeping up and following
Speaker 1: the stories of people who you've covered as a as
Speaker 1: a journalist.
Speaker 2: You know, that's a good point.
Speaker 1: Their story is.
Speaker 2: A good point.
Speaker 1: The story you want it that in that moment and then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a powerful point. Yeah you do, and you
Speaker 2: do ask yourself, you know what happened to Lahimuhammad, the
Speaker 2: man I met in Ethiopia who was working on a
Speaker 2: water project with US. I mean, you do ask yourself that,
Speaker 2: and of course you don't know, do you know.
Speaker 1: One foreign correspondent at the BBC once said to me
Speaker 1: that they had put a child in Afghanistan at the
Speaker 1: center of their piece on the then nine o'clock news,
Speaker 1: and lots of people wrote into the BBC and said,
Speaker 1: I really want to help that child, and he wrote
Speaker 1: back and said, help this organization if you want to,
Speaker 1: And people weren't interested. They wanted to help that child,
Speaker 1: but the idea of a connection to a wider group
Speaker 1: beyond that didn't resonate in the same way, and you're
Speaker 1: left with this dilemma. Of course, you need to personalize
Speaker 1: and put Often one person is the face of a
Speaker 1: bigger problem, but sometimes people don't want to know about
Speaker 1: the bigger problem. And I guess that's what you grapple with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that our response to that, the
Speaker 2: late Pope said that the world was suffering from the
Speaker 2: globalization of indifference. It's a pretty serious charge. I don't
Speaker 2: know if I's allowed to argue with the Pope, but
Speaker 2: the sense I have is that people are struggling with
Speaker 2: how to make a difference, not that they've become indifferent,
Speaker 2: and I think that this sense of people wanting agency
Speaker 2: is strong. I don't I think there can be compassion fatigue.
Speaker 2: They can think democratic Congo is always going to be
Speaker 2: in crisis. But I think also the sense of people's
Speaker 2: sense of humanity is strong. Actually, and I think we've
Speaker 2: ended up in the humanitarian aid sector in general talking
Speaker 2: too much about inputs and not enough about outputs and outcomes.
Speaker 2: That's what's driving us.
Speaker 1: So Gaza given the number two on your watch list,
Speaker 1: Jared Kushner has set out his plans and his vision
Speaker 1: for Gaza. What do you think of it?
Speaker 2: Well, it would be good if it could happen, and
Speaker 2: that's the question. And obviously we have a team of
Speaker 2: Gazans who are working for us. Their concern at the
Speaker 2: moment is a long way from what was.
Speaker 1: On the slide because people are living intense at best.
Speaker 1: I mean, let's be clear what some people living in
Speaker 1: the open air well.
Speaker 2: The tents have been blown away by the rains. There've
Speaker 2: been very significant rains. The tents couldn't survive it. The
Speaker 2: fact that there's a ceasefire is a blessed relief and
Speaker 2: gives a chance to make inroads on the needs. Although
Speaker 2: people are still being killed in Gaza, so I don't.
Speaker 1: Want more than four hundred have been killed since the Yes.
Speaker 2: Nonetheless, it's better to have a ceasefire than not have
Speaker 2: a cease fire. The aid deliveries are not yet reaching
Speaker 2: the level that's promised in phase one of the plan
Speaker 2: that was published, and we need that.
Speaker 1: But just going back to what you said about Jered
Speaker 1: Cushion's plans, it would be good if they happen. There's
Speaker 1: a part of what he set out. There's a coastal
Speaker 1: tourism zone with tower blocks and residential areas. Are you
Speaker 1: sure that those are four Palestinians.
Speaker 2: What was interesting. This is why it's important to go
Speaker 2: through it. There's obviously a very real concern that at
Speaker 2: the moment these really defense force are more or less
Speaker 2: down the middle of Gaza and west of the line
Speaker 2: is where the Palaestinians are. East of the line, there
Speaker 2: are very few of them. What was actually projected was
Speaker 2: for the whole of Gaza. The promise to them is
Speaker 2: that they will have a life that is wholesome and
Speaker 2: that is connected to the rest of the world and
Speaker 2: connected to the rest of the Palestinian state. Obviously, I
Speaker 2: think it's so important to be very, very practical about
Speaker 2: how large is the distance from where we are today
Speaker 2: to where the vision of a Palestinian should be. Was
Speaker 2: that that should drive the most powerful. It's interesting that
Speaker 2: you referred to the speech by Jerrek Krishna, the Palestinian
Speaker 2: chairman of the Technocratic Group, spoke to the DeVos Ali Shad, Yeah,
Speaker 2: it spoke to the DeVos conference and spoke about how
Speaker 2: he understood the plan that was being presented, and he
Speaker 2: was giving his authority and legitimacy behind that. But I've
Speaker 2: got to be acutely content. Every week I have a
Speaker 2: meeting with our team who are in Gaza, maybe every
Speaker 2: fortnight now because I'm away this week, and the very
Speaker 2: practical concerns of staying alive are still there because of
Speaker 2: the health give him that.
Speaker 1: So much is unknown, and there is this massive gap
Speaker 1: between the immediate needs you're talking about and the ultimate
Speaker 1: vision as set out by Jared Kushner. Is it the
Speaker 1: right moment for Tony Blair to back the administration's plans
Speaker 1: for gard You get.
Speaker 2: Him on your show. He's more than capable of talking
Speaker 2: for himself.
Speaker 1: Request is all I'm very happy to do that I'll.
Speaker 2: Say that this is definitely the sort of interview in
Speaker 2: which he would thrive.
Speaker 1: Have you had a conversation with him about it, That's what.
Speaker 2: I'mauring briefly last week. He's been very, very committed for
Speaker 2: a very very long time to the idea that there
Speaker 2: cannot be security for Israel unless there are rights and
Speaker 2: dignity and statehood for Palestinians. And they cannot be stated
Speaker 2: with dignity for Palestinians unless there is security for Israel.
Speaker 2: So he'll have to speak about this. You'll have to
Speaker 2: ask him about what he's doing and how he's how
Speaker 2: he sees it playing it.
Speaker 1: Do you caution him? Because you have teams who are
Speaker 1: in Gaza, you are directly connected to living conditions for
Speaker 1: Palestinians today, would you caution him in how fully signed
Speaker 1: up he is to the Steve Wikoff and Jared Kushnak plan,
Speaker 1: which he clearly is, because he said he believes in
Speaker 1: their way.
Speaker 2: Every time I see him, this is what we're seeing today,
Speaker 2: this is what we're seeing.
Speaker 1: How does he respond?
Speaker 2: He says, I'm on it, I'm on it. I want
Speaker 2: to I want to hear it, and I want to
Speaker 2: be on it, and I mean that's the truth. So
Speaker 2: that's all I can tell you. He's got no official position,
Speaker 2: he's not. It's the Palestinians who've been nominated who are
Speaker 2: in taking actions on the ground. But you need to
Speaker 2: get him on your show. He's got talent, that guy.
Speaker 2: You know, he's got a future ahead of him. So
Speaker 2: you want to go and get him on your show
Speaker 2: and give him a bit of a platform.
Speaker 1: It's not for want of try say that. The wider
Speaker 1: picture in all of this, he is on the executive
Speaker 1: board of the Board of Peace, which it feels like
Speaker 1: the Americans are putting forward as an alternative to the UN.
Speaker 1: Is that the case?
Speaker 2: Do you think, Well, there's the Gaza element of it,
Speaker 2: which was mandated by a UN Security Council resolution that's
Speaker 2: got the standing of the UN behind it. I think
Speaker 2: we need a stronger UN, not a weaker UN. There
Speaker 2: are internal reasons for the UN, but there's also the
Speaker 2: point the UN is only strong as strong as its
Speaker 2: member states allow it to be. The gridlock in the
Speaker 2: Security Council, really since twenty fourteen, since the Russian invasion
Speaker 2: of Crimea, in some ways a bit before that, has
Speaker 2: undermined that institution. But I think it's still got unique
Speaker 2: legitimacy and credibility as an institution, and it's incredibly important
Speaker 2: for putting If the American anchor has been pulled up
Speaker 2: on the global system, we need to put out more
Speaker 2: buoys to stabilize the boat. And the UN is an
Speaker 2: important part of that.
Speaker 1: But do you think the US is trying to circumvent
Speaker 1: it by set up the Board of Peace, by inviting
Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin, Victor Auban, the president of viel Us, all
Speaker 1: sorts of people who you would not associate with the
Speaker 1: best interests of peace and security.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, of course. Now, one of the things about
Speaker 2: being a running humanitarian organization is there's impartiality, there's neutrality.
Speaker 2: I've got all sorts of things I've said in my
Speaker 2: political life about what I think of these actors leading
Speaker 2: a humanitarian organization. I have to stick to my lane.
Speaker 2: I know that the US administration have withdrawn from the
Speaker 2: World Health Organization, and I've said that's damaging because the
Speaker 2: US is a potent and positive force in global health.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get into what might or might not,
Speaker 2: because the truth is, while the mandate of the executive
Speaker 2: Board in respect of Gaza is quite clear. The wider
Speaker 2: debates in international diplomacy about what is the Board of
Speaker 2: Peace and how's it going to work? That hasn't happened yet.
Speaker 1: Do you think Tony Blair knows fully what the aims
Speaker 1: the Board of Peace?
Speaker 2: Well, he knows what his job is in respect of
Speaker 2: the executive which he's on, and so as I say,
Speaker 2: get him on, I'm sorry that I'm not interesting enough
Speaker 2: for you to have to ask what he's going to think.
Speaker 1: Trust me, there's plenty in your ballpark that we're interested in.
Speaker 1: I do wonder though, running a big international organization, your
Speaker 1: don is a crucial right. Your work without them can't happen.
Speaker 1: USA has been shut down. In the UK, a labor
Speaker 1: government run by people you know well. Your own brother
Speaker 1: is a senior minister in that government is choosing to
Speaker 1: fund its defense pledges by taking money from the aid budget.
Speaker 1: What did you think when you saw that last year?
Speaker 2: I didn't like that, obviously, and I said, so the
Speaker 2: needs that you've referred to that are on our watch
Speaker 2: list are growing, but there's been a fifty percent cut
Speaker 2: in humanitarian aid in the last year. That means lower
Speaker 2: food rations in the World Food Program means we close
Speaker 2: a program for boys and girls to get educated in
Speaker 2: Afghanistan for three hundred thous boys and girls. It means
Speaker 2: that Sudanese refugees in South Sudan don't get a health center.
Speaker 2: So I can see what those cuts are doing, and
Speaker 2: the UK cuts are only just coming in, and so
Speaker 2: what I have to do is not just figure out,
Speaker 2: of course, I have to figure out how does a
Speaker 2: one point five billion dollar organization become a one point
Speaker 2: one billion dollar organization. And we've had to do that
Speaker 2: very briskly over the last year. But I've also had
Speaker 2: to figure out with our teams, how do we remain
Speaker 2: on the front foot for the virtues of impact, innovation,
Speaker 2: cost effectiveness that make us a really potent forcing people's lives.
Speaker 2: And that's what we're focused on. We're focused on the
Speaker 2: role of the World Bank because that has a critical
Speaker 2: role in fragile and conflict states where disbursement is difficult.
Speaker 2: We're focused on the European Union, which has not cut
Speaker 2: its SADE budget. It's interesting they have seven year budgets
Speaker 2: in the EU. They've not cut the budget running to
Speaker 2: twenty twenty eight, and they're increasing the budget twenty eight
Speaker 2: to thirty five. So we need to make sure that
Speaker 2: their money is going as far as possible, including by
Speaker 2: cooperation with the UK. We have to make sure that
Speaker 2: organizations like the Global Alliance on Vaccines and Humanization with
Speaker 2: whom we partner, they're taking the money as far as possible.
Speaker 1: These are your friends in the UK government who are
Speaker 1: making these decisions. Some up your emotions disappointment, Yeah, discussed.
Speaker 2: No, they don't pretend that this is a choice that
Speaker 2: they wanted to make or a good choice that they're in.
Speaker 2: They do it in sorrow rather than in glee and.
Speaker 1: To keep the Americans happy because the defense spending pledge
Speaker 1: is important.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think the defense pledge that we're making
Speaker 2: is driven by the actions of Russia more than the
Speaker 2: actions of America. Let's be absolutely clear about that. In
Speaker 2: the nineteen nineties and the two thousands, the ability of
Speaker 2: Russia to threaten European security wasn't understood in the way
Speaker 2: that it is understood today. But anyway, the point is
Speaker 2: the government's done something that I disagree with it. I'm
Speaker 2: far from happy about it.
Speaker 1: So what are your conversations like? Do you keep voicing
Speaker 1: it or have you.
Speaker 2: They're still an issue. How much of the so called
Speaker 2: overse aid budget is going on support for refugees in the.
Speaker 1: UK too much?
Speaker 2: Too much. What I want to say to people is
Speaker 2: two dollars and ten cents to deliver a vaccine dose
Speaker 2: in East Africa. That's what it costs US. We delivered
Speaker 2: twenty four million of those vaccine doses for two dollars
Speaker 2: and ten cents, and I want to take on the
Speaker 2: aid doesn't work argument, because when you vaccinate a kid
Speaker 2: two million zero dose kids in four countries in East Africa,
Speaker 2: including Sudan, that's a life benefit. If you don't vaccinate
Speaker 2: that kid, it's a life sentence for them. Severe and
Speaker 2: moderate acute malnutrition. We've got forty five million children today
Speaker 2: who are severely or moderately acutely malinarished. We know how
Speaker 2: to address that, and by the way, we've shown how
Speaker 2: to address it with a thirty percent increase in cost
Speaker 2: effectiveness and cost efficiency. So my job is to say,
Speaker 2: here's an absolutely copper bottomed investment that anyone would think
Speaker 2: it is a good investment.
Speaker 1: You speak so passionately about this, and yet I know
Speaker 1: they're a congressman in the us who've gone characterize the
Speaker 1: work of the ir C as theft and larsseny and
Speaker 1: do you get exhausted in the process of having.
Speaker 2: You We're all getting younger, aren't we, So it's easier
Speaker 2: to the No. What I'd say to them is, don't
Speaker 2: take it from me. Let's come and meet our clients.
Speaker 2: Come on, meet our.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're not going to do I give up
Speaker 1: no remondering if you get ground down by that's really
Speaker 1: what I'm wondering.
Speaker 2: I'm quite maybe that goes back to thinking that one's
Speaker 2: lucky rather than un lucky. And I don't know if
Speaker 2: I was ground down, I wouldn't be learning anything. If
Speaker 2: you're not learning anything, you don't do it. You do
Speaker 2: jobs until you stop learning in them.
Speaker 1: I think you've you came to the IRC job with
Speaker 1: lots of experience in politics, right at the highest level
Speaker 1: of being Foreign Secretory, one of the greatest offices of
Speaker 1: the state. So as you look at the Labor government
Speaker 1: now eighteen months after getting elected, what is your analysis
Speaker 1: of what's gone wrong for them?
Speaker 2: Well, first all I have to say, it's not all
Speaker 2: gone wrong. I know where you're going.
Speaker 1: You'd acknowledge that things have gone right.
Speaker 2: It's been a very challenging period and that have been
Speaker 2: mistakes made, of course, And I think that the world
Speaker 2: has changed very very fast in the eighteen months and
Speaker 2: the world has changed very very fast since they wrote
Speaker 2: their manifesto. And when the world changes, you have to change,
Speaker 2: and that's the process that they're undergoing at the moment.
Speaker 2: I think that they're going to have to give clearer direction.
Speaker 2: They're going to have to amp up the dosage on
Speaker 2: some of the interventions they're doing on areas like Europe.
Speaker 2: They're gonna have to.
Speaker 1: Do more, much more, closer to you, much more.
Speaker 2: And they're going to have to explain what they're doing.
Speaker 2: And when I was in politics, people used to say,
Speaker 2: if you're explaining, you're losing. I think Ronald Reagan said
Speaker 2: that now, if you're not explaining, you're not on the pitch.
Speaker 2: And so I think that there's there's work to be done.
Speaker 2: But I know them to be high integrity, very methodical,
Speaker 2: quite self critical, and very determined.
Speaker 1: Would you guard them against having an agenda set by
Speaker 1: reform so they focus on the kinds of core issues
Speaker 1: for reform and the Conservatives like immigration.
Speaker 2: Well, I think without losing all of the audience who
Speaker 2: might have to me happily our confessed to being an
Speaker 2: Arsenal supporter, and arsen Wenger once said that his philosophy
Speaker 2: of management was never set your game plan by what
Speaker 2: you think the opposition are going to do. Set the
Speaker 2: game plan by what you want to do. And so
Speaker 2: the arsen Wenger answer to your question would be, you
Speaker 2: don't take your agenda from reform, you take a gender
Speaker 2: from the people you're trying to serve.
Speaker 1: But eighteen months ago you must have been so happy
Speaker 1: to see your party succeeds.
Speaker 2: Still happy to see my party in government because.
Speaker 1: Honestly, but they're not doing well in the opinion polls,
Speaker 1: and if they continue to not do well, Nigel Farish
Speaker 1: could be the next Prime Minister of the UK. Would
Speaker 1: a new Labor leader make a difference to therefore.
Speaker 2: I'm not going anywhere any that we've got a Labor leader.
Speaker 2: He's fought and one a general election with a majority
Speaker 2: of one hundred and forty five, were charged by the
Speaker 2: British public with delivering on an agenda that improves the
Speaker 2: kind of and I want to come back to this point.
Speaker 2: When the world changes, we have to change. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of change going on. Take it from the Trump
Speaker 2: administrations themselves. They've set out to have a revolution in
Speaker 2: global affairs. That means we have to do more for ourselves.
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean we break the American alliance, but we
Speaker 2: have to do more for ourselves. We have to do
Speaker 2: more with Europeans, we have to do more with names,
Speaker 2: We have to do more around the world.
Speaker 1: What did you think when they've blocked Andy Burnham from
Speaker 1: running as.
Speaker 2: A lot I wouldn't have done that.
Speaker 1: But you wouldn't have done it? Why because it creates
Speaker 1: bad blood? No.
Speaker 2: I mean, he's a talented leader, politician, and you want
Speaker 2: your talented people in the team on the pitch scoring
Speaker 2: goals or if they're defenders stopping girls.
Speaker 1: Wonder where you see your home? Is it?
Speaker 2: Home is here?
Speaker 1: So you're definitely going to come back.
Speaker 2: Well, trouble is, you're not always living at home. That's
Speaker 2: the thing. So I still sound like an Englishman in
Speaker 2: New York too. Point of phrase. We make our own history,
Speaker 2: but not as we choose. As someone once wrote, I
Speaker 2: feel very committed to the country. To this country's given
Speaker 2: my family everything. As we started this conversation, gave me Louise,
Speaker 2: So that's your wife.
Speaker 1: Yeah, as America felt like home in the last fifteen years.
Speaker 1: I know your son's been my home.
Speaker 2: Our kids were born there, adopted there. So I first
Speaker 2: went to America in nineteen seventy seven as a twelve
Speaker 2: year old for a year with my family. I've seen that.
Speaker 2: I mean the country is an extraordinary place. I mean
Speaker 2: it's a teeming, thriving, driving, ambitious place and seductive.
Speaker 1: I would say it's very easier to become attached to it.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say I wouldn't say seductive.
Speaker 1: It's pretty, you know, tough place.
Speaker 2: It's sincere, sincere when they swear at you in New York.
Speaker 2: So it's been our home, and I think that one
Speaker 2: has to have a profound sense of gratitude for the
Speaker 2: life experiences has given me. But you asked me a question,
Speaker 2: where's home? And I said, well, here's home, So that
Speaker 2: there's there's What do.
Speaker 1: You think your next job might be? Is it public service?
Speaker 1: Is it private sector?
Speaker 2: Sometimes young people come, and younger people than me come
Speaker 2: and say what ill careers advice hasn't been my strong point.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say. I always say the same thing. Look,
Speaker 2: I want to make sure that I'm doing something that
Speaker 2: does the maximum to advance the things I believe in
Speaker 2: consistent with the absolute loyalty and commitment I made to
Speaker 2: my own family to be there for them. And you
Speaker 2: don't know what comes up. You just don't. I haven't
Speaker 2: got a napkin with the dates and roles. So I
Speaker 2: feel very lucky to be leading the International Rescue Committee.
Speaker 2: I learn from my colleagues and from what we do.
Speaker 2: I put myself into it, and so I'm grateful they've
Speaker 2: put up with me.
Speaker 1: And do you think there is a Is there something
Speaker 1: in politics that you ever yearn for that kind of
Speaker 1: power or is it part of your life?
Speaker 2: Always say to people, what's the difference between government and
Speaker 2: your where you have more power in government, but you
Speaker 2: have more blockages on doing anything about it. If you're
Speaker 2: in an NGO, you see the people, the dangers, you
Speaker 2: lose sight of the big picture. Doing my job today,
Speaker 2: there are thirty four million people last year who got help.
Speaker 2: Did I transform their lives? Did I find their husbands
Speaker 2: not necessarily? Did our teams give them vaccinations? Did they
Speaker 2: give them a chance in life? Did they deliver life
Speaker 2: saving and life changing interventions? Yeah? They did. So it's
Speaker 2: a balance, isn't it. And I don't know what my
Speaker 2: next job is.
Speaker 1: Do you still talk to some of the people who
Speaker 1: you work closely within exactly that period. Hillary Clinton was
Speaker 1: the Secretary of State at that time when you were scary.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, and you still talk to her, Yeah,
Speaker 2: of course. And we don't just sit around saying, oh,
Speaker 2: it'd be much better in our day. I mean, it's hard.
Speaker 2: It's hard.
Speaker 1: You don't just say that, you do a bit of that.
Speaker 2: I bet did I say? We don't just say that,
Speaker 2: or we don't say that. I think that all of
Speaker 2: us want to have a voice in our own way,
Speaker 2: and I am lucky I can have a voice. But
Speaker 2: more important, our teams can do something, and if I
Speaker 2: can help them do it, that's good.
Speaker 1: David miliband, thank you, thank you, And that's the Michelle
Speaker 1: Hussein Show for this week. The producers are Jessica Beck
Speaker 1: and Chris mark You. Video editing is by Andy Hayward,
Speaker 1: social media by Alex Morgan, Production assistance by Jennifer Seeley,
Speaker 1: The sound engineers Richard Ward, Music is by Bart Walshall,
Speaker 1: and the executive producer is Louisa Lewis. At Bloomberg Weekend.
Speaker 1: The editorial director of Audio and Special Projects is Brendan
Speaker 1: Francis Newnham, and our executive editor is Catherine Bell. If
Speaker 1: you'd like to contact us, there's an email in the
Speaker 1: show notes, as well as a link to these conversations
Speaker 1: in video, and you'll find the illustrated text versions at
Speaker 1: bloomberg dot com slash Weekend. Until the next time, goodbye.