WEBVTT - Special Episode: Alev Scott & Cash Cow 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:47.000 Hi, I'm Aaron Welsh and this is This Podcast Will 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:50.560 Kill You. Welcome to the latest episode in the tp 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.040 w k Y book Club series, where I bring on 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:57.520 authors of popular science and medicine books to chat about 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.960 their latest work. Over the years, we've gotten to cover 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:05.520 some fascinating books on subjects ranging from the history of 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:09.679 refrigeration to the evolution of language, from the concept of 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:13.400 proof to the story of syphilis, and so much more. 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:15.840 If you'd like to check out the full list of 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:18.440 books we've covered so far, as well as ones on 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.600 the horizon, head over to our website This Podcast will 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:24.440 Kill You dot com. 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Drop 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:24.880 social media ads for egg Freezing IVF clinics boasting about 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:29.200 success rates, surrogacy contracts approaching the length of a book, 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:33.520 websites where breast milk can be bought and sold. These days, 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:38.200 the maternal body is increasingly seen in terms of monetary value. 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:43.239 Does this leave people more vulnerable to exploitation or might 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:47.880 it actually be empowering? As this week's book shows, there 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:51.960 is no right answer. Journalist Alev Scott joins me to 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:55.800 discuss her latest book, Cash Cow, How the maternal body 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:59.519 became a global commodity and the hidden costs for women. 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:04.760 Scott takes readers through her personal and compassionate exploration of 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:09.600 the fascinating and at times deeply disturbing underbelly of the 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:14.040 global fertility industry. She explores the three main elements that 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:18.880 have undergone this commodification breast milk, eggs, and womb and 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:22.000 delves into how each has been turned into a business 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:26.880 opportunity with little to know public scrutiny the breast milk market, 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:31.120 who's buying and who's selling in this completely unregulated space. 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:37.440 Future fertility fairs promoting cutting edge technology alongside shamanic nutritionists 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:41.160 are claims of success required to have support. The wide 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:45.720 range of surrogacy legality across the globe, which countries allow 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:50.520 for profit surrogacy versus altruistic only surrogacy versus surrogacy being 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:54.240 labeled a crime against women. The regulation of sperm donation. 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:58.200 Should a donor's identity be visible or should they remain anonymous? 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:02.840 To say the ethics are complicated is quite the understatement, 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:06.760 but that is where the power of cash Cow truly lies. 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:10.480 Readers are forced to confront their feelings and have their 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:16.040 assumptions questioned. Where does the line between exploitation and empowerment lie? 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:19.919 Sitting in that moral gray zone is not a comfortable 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:23.479 thing to do, but it is crucial, especially since the 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:26.640 global fertility market will only continue to grow in the 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:30.640 coming decades. I found this book to be a revelation, 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:34.040 one of those books where for weeks after you're telling 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:36.880 your friends about what you learned. I do want to 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:41.200 mention that this conversation features discussions of pregnancy, loss, abuse, 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:45.880 and overall exploitation. So please listen with discretion. Let's take 0:04:45.880 --> 0:05:12.200 a short break and get started. Alev, thanks so much 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:15.240 for joining me today. Thank you for having me in 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.320 the prologue of your book, cash Cow. You drop readers 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:22.920 right into this strange world really of the breast milk market, 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:25.159 which you later explained, you know, kind of planted the 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.640 seed for this idea of this book. How did that 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:29.479 seed grow? 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:29.760 Like? 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:32.320 When did you go from the breast milk market to 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:36.599 kind of seeing the commodification of fertility everywhere you looked. 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:40.040 I really didn't set out to write about the fertility 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:44.920 industry or the breast milk market, but it kind of 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:48.200 came about serendipitously when I had my first child a 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:50.680 few years ago. It sort of did come from that 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:54.200 initial encounter I had with the online breast milk market, 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:58.640 and I suppose it was natural for my curiosity to 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:01.479 go from there to other parts of the maternal body 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.760 that are commodified. I was extremely lucky. I had a 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:09.680 very easy, heteronormative route to motherhood. I didn't go through IVF, 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.560 but many of my friends have either gone through IVF 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:16.480 or are considering doing so, or they're having their eggs frozen, 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:21.440 or they're looking at surrogacy. And so when I'd encountered 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:25.599 that world before, i'd seen it through their eyes, but 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:29.880 I began to see it a bit more from this perspective, 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:32.320 I suppose of like, what are we actually doing here? 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:35.320 Like what does the industry entail? How is it that 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:38.160 there are such different laws and regulations in one country 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:42.120 from the other, And how much does cultural attitude play 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:45.200 into that? To be totally honest, I felt quite protective 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.039 of some of my friends when they were embarking on 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.400 these IVF journeys, because I could see that they were well, 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:53.480 they were obviously desperate to have children, but they were 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:57.560 they were very, very vulnerable as consumers as well. So 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:00.599 I was looking at it from a kind of mark lens. 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:03.640 I suppose. I don't know how better to explain it, really, 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:08.000 other than my very personal, very visceral encounter with the 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:12.600 breast milk industry online sort of matched up with my 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:14.960 curiosity about the IVF market in other ways, and they 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:16.600 kind of came together in this. 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:22.160 Book, and you arrange this book in three main big chapters. 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:24.840 Can you tell me a little bit about that structure 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:26.560 and how you landed on that structure. 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:30.080 I forced myself to be quite literal about what I 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:32.960 was doing, which was really kind of breaking the maternal 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:37.200 body down into its composite parts, the sort of byproducts 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.440 of fertility in a way, or the stepping stones to 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:43.720 having a child. And it made me think of a 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.840 Dutch book I'd encountered, which was written by a Dutch 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:53.400 artist about the uses of one commercially raised pig, and 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:57.920 she detailed hundreds of uses of its body parts, everything 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:02.280 from cigarettes to body like to pay to bullets, like 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:06.680 crazy stuff. Anyway, that made me think about how the 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:10.440 bits of the maternal body are commodified. And it is 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:15.800 a bit of a start comparison perhaps, but I thought, actually, 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:19.280 it's effective, and those are the three main parts of 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:22.960 the maternal body that we do commoditize. So that's how 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:24.400 I kind of landed on that structure. 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:28.480 I really love how throughout the entire book you are 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:34.720 constantly probing the question of exploitation and empowerment and where 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:37.160 does it lie, and does it lie in a different 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:40.120 place for different people, or different countries, or different experiences 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:45.120 or different practices, And just so much of these questions 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:50.200 that I think that many of us don't really consider 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:53.160 that deeply or like unless we are confronted with it. 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:56.000 And throughout the course of reading your book, I found 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:59.760 myself confronted a lot by these ethical questions that I 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:01.439 did know the answer to and I still don't know 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.400 the answer to. And you discussed this as well, how 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:08.920 some of your preconceptions about parenthood and fertility were overturned 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:12.400 throughout the course of writing this. What were some of those? 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:17.160 I think the subject I knew least about well. I mean, 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:20.080 I knew very little about lots of things when I 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:24.480 started this research. Sarrogacy was something that I didn't know 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:26.880 very much about. I didn't actually know how I felt 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:29.280 about it, because, like you, I'd never forced myself to 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:32.440 confront any of the ethical questions that it brings up. 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.920 I have to say that when I set out looking 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:40.480 at the American model, I sort of expected to find 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:42.720 it a bit in your face, a bit crass, like 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:44.680 the commercial aspects of it, because I live in a 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:49.400 country where only altruistic surrogacy is allowed, and in Europe 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:55.040 sarrogacy is either banned in certain countries like Spain for example, 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:58.600 or Italy, or it's allowed in a strictly altruistic sense, 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.360 like in the UK or the nether So I was thinking, Okay, 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:02.920 this is going to be a bit weird looking into 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:04.880 the US market, and it was a bit weird. And 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:06.959 the first time I read a surrogacy contract, I was 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.239 very taken aback by some of the clauses in that contract. 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:15.520 Having said that, by the time I finished my research, 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:18.760 and by the time I'd looked into surrogacy markets in 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:23.480 other parts of the world where surrogacy is not strictly illegal, 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:24.760 but it's not really legal either. 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:25.760 It's this gray. 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.760 Area and there's a lack of regulation and no one 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.840 really knows how the surrogates involved are treated. It depends 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:35.400 from agency to agency. Those markets worried me so much 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:37.000 more that I came round to the view that the 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:42.079 US market is probably the safest in terms of well 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:45.240 in terms of safeguards expectations from both sides. 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:47.640 It doesn't mean it's perfect at all. There've been a 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.600 couple of viral articles recently I don't know if you've read. 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.800 There was one in Wired recently in New Yorker. 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.120 For me, I was really glad those articles are written, 0:10:57.160 --> 0:10:59.559 not because I am critical of surrogacin and I want 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:02.200 there to bad press about surrogacy out there, which, by 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:03.200 the way, some people assume. 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:05.640 Some people assume my book is anti sarrogacy. It's not. 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:08.640 I just want to open up the conversations about the 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.760 pitfalls and the weaknesses in the system, even in the US, 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:14.959 which is held up as like you know, the post 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:18.199 a child of a sorrogcy industry. It's it's much better 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:21.040 than many other markets. It's not perfect, and we need 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:22.440 to talk about why it's not perfect. 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:26.360 Yeah, showing the full range of there is no one 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.720 answer necessarily or one way to feel. And you do 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:34.839 this right away in your chapter on breast milk and 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:37.720 how you know you talk about that your first exposure 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.480 to the fertility industry for this book was through the 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:43.840 breast milk market. Can you tell me about this market? 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:46.080 You know, who's on the market selling, who's on the 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:50.199 market buying. Are there laws or regulations surrounding this, What's 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:52.040 what's going on with the breast milk market? 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.320 Great question, so I knew very little. 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:57.560 I didn't know there was a breast milk market until 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:01.439 I had my child, and I hadn't supply of milk. 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:04.040 So I had all this frozen breast milk in the 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:05.920 freezer and it was going to go to waste, and 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:08.320 I wanted to donate it. I knew that was possible, 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:12.079 although it isn't widely known. Actually, I happened to have 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:15.680 a friend in Amsterdam who donated her breast milk to 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:17.920 the hospital. So that's what I set out to do. 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:22.120 And what I discovered while I was researching that was 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:25.840 the online market, which took me by surprise. I decided 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:28.640 to post an ad in this spirit of research. 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:29.400 I was never. 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:33.800 Intending to sell my milk because morally, I personally didn't 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:36.120 want to do that. I've tried to be very open 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:38.959 minded in my research and non judgmental about women who 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:41.040 do sell their milk, but I personally didn't want to. 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:43.520 I didn't feel comfortable, but I wanted to see who 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:46.600 would approach me, and I also wanted to kind of 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:48.720 just get a sense of the market and talk to 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.960 other women selling their milk online. So I posted an 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:57.480 ad and I made it very kind of clinical almost. 0:12:57.480 --> 0:12:59.920 It was just a photo of some milk that I'd pumped, 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.080 and some details about the fact that I had an 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:06.560 oversupply and that I donated to hospital previously, So in 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:11.440 other words, it was not phishing for attention. But most 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:14.000 of the replies I got, most of the requests I 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:16.960 got were from men within hours of posting that ad. 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:18.719 They were predominantly men. 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:19.920 Which I think. 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:21.880 I'd had an idea that maybe there might be a 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:24.440 few men approaching me, but I hadn't expected it to 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.320 be the vast majority. I thought the majority would be 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:31.880 other parents, maybe mothers with milk supply, or gay or 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:35.560 adopted parents looking for breast milk, so that was a 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:39.960 huge surprise. Some of them didn't come straight away with 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:43.679 sexual requests. They said they were bodybuilders it's very big 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:45.800 in the bodybuilding industry. Or they said they had a 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:49.160 health concern like IBS, or they were cancer survivors or. 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:49.760 Something like that. 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:53.440 But often when we got into a correspondence, the sexual 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:54.480 element would come out. 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:57.800 Let's take a quick break, and when we get back, 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:19.480 there's still so much to discuss. Welcome back everyone. I've 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.600 been chatting with elev Scott about her book cash cow, 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:26.080 how the maternal body became a global commodity, and the 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:30.480 hidden costs for women. Let's get back into things with 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:34.960 this market. Is their regulation, for instance, like when you 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:38.440 were looking into the breast milk market and selling milk online, 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:41.480 what are the different places where people can do this 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:45.400 and what are their regulations surrounding these websites. 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:50.600 So in very few countries are there regulations. In a 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:53.720 few countries it's banned altogether for reasons I go into 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.040 in the book. There's often been a scandal and the 0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:59.360 government ends up saying, you know what, sales of breast 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:01.680 milk at night banned now. But that's only happened in 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:07.400 like two three countries. By and large, it's not It's 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.240 not regulated in the UK and the US, it's actually 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:13.600 classed as a food, So breast milk is the only 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:18.640 bodily fluid substance that's classes as of food. The FDA 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:23.680 and the FSA both advise against sales of breast milk, 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:27.520 but it's not illegal. And honestly, I don't know who 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:32.720 would trust breast milk that is sourced online because the 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:36.200 dangers for the consumer are like obvious. Right, So when 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:38.320 I donated to a hospital. I had to go through 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:40.520 so many hoops. I had to have my blood tested 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:44.000 for STDs, for all sorts of things like I had 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:46.760 to promise. I had to sign forms promising not to 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:51.440 have ibuprofen avil. I can't remember it. It was a 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:56.000 big kind of saga to get through before they even 0:15:56.440 --> 0:16:00.000 agreed to accept my milk, which was then screened for pathogens. 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:02.080 It was pasteurized. 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:05.880 You know, it's being given to premature babies in hospitals, 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:09.440 so the protocol is very strict. There's obviously none of 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:13.160 that for something you're buying online. That kind of goes 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:16.680 without saying. I don't think a lot of the men 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:18.640 buying breast milk online care about that. 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:19.360 I don't. 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:21.720 They probably wouldn't care if it was actually cow's milk 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.800 that some random person is, you know, putting into bottles 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.200 and shipping to them. It's the idea of buying it 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:30.680 that they like. So I'm less concerned about them about 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:36.800 those particular consumers being defrauded. I'm more concerned about parents 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:41.200 and babies being defrauded. But yeah, it's interesting. It's not 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:44.760 regulated because it's not really legal, but it's not really illegal. 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.360 It's just sort of there. 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:49.520 It's just out there. It's just one of these things 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.680 you can sell your used knickers online if you want to, 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.720 Like there's it's just kind of the market's there if 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:56.200 you want it. 0:16:56.800 --> 0:17:00.280 There is so much discourse today surrounding breast milk, and 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:04.159 there's shame and judgment surrounding breastfeeding or not breastfeeding, whether 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:07.359 that's a choice, whether that's something that you want to 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:10.959 breastfeed but you cannot. And I couldn't help, but think of, 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:14.760 you know, as reading your chapters, how technology has really 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:19.520 transformed the way that we approach breastfeeding. Where there are 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:23.760 pumps available, there'sctation consultants, there's formula available, and so there 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:28.960 kind of then leads to the stigma surrounding breast milk 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.639 that is not something that you produce directly that you 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:38.080 either purchase or you know, formula or wet nursing for instance. 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:40.639 And it's like technology has kind of in a way 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:44.800 further the stigma and narrowed the acceptable range for if 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:47.679 you do not breastfeed. Is that something that you kind 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.120 of encountered throughout this I. 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:54.160 Think there's a lot of kind of not just social stigma, 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:58.440 but political stigma that surrounds breast milk because, as you say, 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:02.879 breastfeeding is now this hot potato where I don't know 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:04.840 about in the US, but in the UK certainly we 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.280 used to have this slogan and breast is best that 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:11.040 I think was used by the NHS, our National Health Service, 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:13.679 and it was seen to be the best thing to 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:17.119 give your child, but it came under this backlash because 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:20.800 it was seemed to also shame women who chose not 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.440 to or struggled to breastfeed and needed or chose to 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:27.400 use infant formula instead. So I've now visited the milk 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:32.040 bank where I donated my milk, and for premature babies, 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.560 certain premature babies, they actually do need breast milk like 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.639 they cannot digest infant formula right, So it's not a 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.639 matter of like, oh, ideally they would have this or that, 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:43.919 or it doesn't matter. They just they need it. So 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:46.960 donations are absolutely crucial for saving the lives of premature 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:51.000 babies in some instances, which is why I feel conflicted 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:54.320 about the kind of open market which treats breast milk 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:56.080 as it commodity which could go. 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:58.440 To a baby in need, or it could go to a. 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:02.600 Man because I on the one hand, I feel like, look, 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:05.080 as long as a baby isn't being deprived, if mother, 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:08.080 if a lactating mother at home, has got enough for 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:10.560 her baby and she's got this excess, who am I 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.000 to say where she sells it or who she sells 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:16.119 it to, or whether she donates it. You know, I 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.880 think we expect a lot more altruism of women than 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:21.480 we do of men. And I think that's another stigma 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:23.280 that kind of plays into all of this, is that 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.280 we were like, what kind of mother sells her milk? Like, 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:28.600 surely she would want to donate it to a hospital, 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:34.000 and actually, like, you know, that woman is probably excluded 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:36.320 from the labor market. It's a way for her to 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.080 remain at home with her baby and make some money 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:41.080 on the side to support her family. Who am I 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:43.080 to say shouldn't be doing that? And if that means 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:45.440 selling to men, maybe that just means selling to men. 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:51.199 On the other hand, I have seen how important from 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:54.680 a health perspective donated breast milk is and how dependent 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:58.520 on donations hospital milk banks are, So it's difficult for 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.640 me to keep that entirely out of my mind. If 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:04.080 I thought that the private online market was so big 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.800 that it was seriously threatening donations to the nonprofit sector, 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:11.720 I'd be more worried, I think, even though it's much 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:17.280 bigger than I expected, this online market, I instinctively I 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:21.399 don't feel like it's leaching those nonprofit donations personally, but 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:23.520 I might be wrong. I'm not an expert, That's the thing. 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:26.080 I'm not an expert in any of these fields. All 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:28.040 I'm saying as a journalist is what I've found in 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:34.960 my research. But that's where the interesting kind of ethical 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:38.400 conundrums come from. Is like we don't really know actually 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:39.080 m hm. 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:43.960 Again, this question of empowerment versus exploitation, and who gets 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:48.200 to decide that whether something is exploited and versus empowering. 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:50.800 Is it the individual, is it society? Yeah, I feel 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:53.840 like there are so many dimensions. 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:56.119 Definitely, And I think also at this part of the 0:20:56.160 --> 0:21:00.080 book where I talk about the Cambodian example, where very 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:02.680 poor women in Cambodia were being paid by an American 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:06.560 company to I mean they call it compensation. Essentially, they 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:09.359 were being paid for their milk. And women's rights groups 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:11.359 got to know about this and there was this big 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:14.320 backlash in Cambodia ended up being one of the first 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:17.119 governments to say when banning exports of breast milk, and 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:20.359 the company shut down its operations in Cambodia, and so 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.960 these women no longer sold their milk, and this was 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:26.439 hailed as a great victory by these women's rights groups 0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:30.080 who rights groups. Actually, if you read the local media 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:33.520 stories where they interview the women and ask them what 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:36.720 they feel about it, they're upset, they're angry. They didn't 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:39.840 want that income to be shut off. And so for me, 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:43.960 that's a really good example of the empowerment versus exploitation debate, 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:48.640 because are we just being patronizing with these Western ideas 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:50.840 of coming in and being like, oh, these poor Cambodian women, 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:53.399 they shouldn't be allowed to sell their milk. Really, like, 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:54.800 what's it like to be in their shoes? 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:55.760 Right? 0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:56.400 Right? 0:21:56.640 --> 0:21:59.280 I feel like you do such an amazing job of 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:02.680 for the reader to kind of go, well, wait a second, now, 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:05.639 like think about this in this way and from this perspective. 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:07.159 And the flip side of the corner is that, of 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:11.240 course there are companies that do prey on people's intense 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:15.960 desire to have a baby, a biological child as part 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:18.840 of your research. You went to the Future Fertility Show, 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:22.800 which features this dizzying range of clinics and services from 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:26.280 I think you described a consultation from a shamanic nutritionist 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:30.840 to legal representation sperm analysis. I mean that seems like 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:33.720 such an eye opening experience, Like what was it like 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:37.120 to wander around this show and what do you think 0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:41.840 it says about the global fertility industry or the fertility 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:44.320 industry you know where this show was held. 0:22:45.119 --> 0:22:48.119 Yeah, it was a really really interesting experience and I 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:49.560 definitely felt. 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:54.000 Like a consumer walking around that show. And that is. 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:57.280 Another kind of interesting point for me about the whole 0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:02.200 fertility industry, is to what extent are people consumers versus patients. 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:07.160 So obviously a lot of fertility treatment is elective. There 0:23:07.160 --> 0:23:09.359 are certain cases where I don't know. For example, the 0:23:09.440 --> 0:23:13.199 woman who's been diagnosed with cancer has to freeze her 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:16.360 eggs if she wants any chance of having children after treatment. 0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:19.520 But usually it's women electing to do that because they're 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:21.760 worried that at some point they'll want a child and 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:24.840 they'll no longer be fertile, and that worry, that anxiety 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:28.639 is something that's very much monetized, arguably exploited I had 0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:32.199 so many kind of philosophical conversations during my research with 0:23:32.280 --> 0:23:36.080 people outside and inside the industry about what that line is. 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:40.280 I had a really interesting conversation with a surrogacy lawyer 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:44.119 in California where I kind of said, look, it seems 0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:46.840 to me there is an exploitative nature sometimes in the 0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:49.399