WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Lord Lucan 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.920 Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by a rampaging 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.120 herd of guinea pigs. Instead, it is supported by the 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:09.880 generous contributions of people like you, our listeners on Patreon. 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:13.760 Visit patreon dot com slash thinking sideways to learn more 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:29.280 Thinking Sideways. I don't just stories of things we simply 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:34.400 don't know the answer too. Well. Hey everybody, and welcome 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:38.360 to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Steve, of course, 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:42.600 as always, joined by Devin and Joe. I was gonna 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:47.960 play chicken, but you blinked. Next episode is going to 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:55.640 be a really long. As always, we have another unsolved 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.680 mystery for you this week. We're going to talk about 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:05.560 the appearance of Richard John Bingham, also known as Lord Lucan, 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:10.400 the seventh Earl of Lucan. Yeah, that guy. Yeah. None 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:12.840 of his titles were actually Lord Lucan though, were they? 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:15.160 They were all like Earl and Duke and Baron. I 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:18.200 think Lord was kind of a common It wasn't one 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:21.960 of his official titles. Well, somebody can write about how 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:24.800 ignorant I am about that. That'll be good. I don't 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:26.679 know how that works either. I don't really understand the 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:30.000 workings of the aristocracy. But he actually, I can I 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:33.080 know where the Lord Lucan is. Well, why don't she 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:37.039 say he was living in London. Eighth Earl of Lucan 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:40.360 is his son George. So that's it. I said, we 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:43.360 wanted the seventh Joe, Yeah, oh that guy. That's that's 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:45.280 a good point. But there is a Lord Lucan living 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:47.720 in London. I'm sure there is no one in the 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:53.279 white pages to yeah, well, before we get into the story, 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:55.680 now that we've already gone all over the map, I 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:58.880 do want to say that this was a listener's suggestion. 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:02.240 This story was suggested by a whole bunch of people. 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:06.160 Still want one of our top seven ten most requested. No, 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:08.320 it was not, but it's got a fair number of 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:11.200 requests over the years. Until I started looking into this, 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:12.680 I've never even heard of the guy, and I didn't 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:16.519 realize how huge the story is in Britain today. This 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:20.360 is a mainstay of the British media. They dragged this 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:23.840 out and every six to twelve months trotted around on 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:26.119 the paper and then put it away till next year 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.200 when they need some kind of cover splash, and then 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:32.760 they find him. But we're we're kind of giving it away. 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.240 So let's let's say what the actual mystery is here. 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:39.720 We're going to talk about the murder of a woman 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:44.080 by the name of Sandra Rivett. Uh, the assault of 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:49.720 Veronica Bingham, who is the lord's wife. No, that's not 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:52.000 a thing, right, didn't we find that out? That it's 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:55.320 not it's not an official thing that that lord. The 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:58.320 wives of lords are not automatically, ladies, is that a 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:03.519 thing everybody calls lady Lucan? Did you call her that? Yes, 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:07.440 Lady Lucan, all right? And then of course the subsequent 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:13.960 disappearance of her husband, John Bingham, Lord Lucan, Yes, in 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:18.240 nineteen seventy four. So we have a murder, of beating 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.799 and a disappearance all wrapped up into one story. We 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:29.240 should probably get started. Endless decades, all right, um, So 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.960 let's go ahead and start at the top, which is 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:36.280 when he was born, well, not exactly when he was born, 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:39.680 but don't really care about that. Bingham was born into nobility. 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.160 His father, George Bingham, was the sixth Earl of Lucan, 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:47.600 and as a young man he of course did his 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.680 National service, which I didn't realize at that time. This 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:56.720 is the early fifties, Britain still had basically a conscription 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.760 system where men had to serve eighteen months. We had 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:01.320 any we had it here in the Stage until the 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:05.280 late sixties. Yeah, I for some reason, it just never 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.000 sunk in that everybody had to do that. And let 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:10.080 me correct myself. I think it was actually the very 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:12.120 early seventies when they finally did away with it here 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.960 in the stage in the state. Well, I know, I 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.680 know it was in the sixties in Britain when they 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:23.080 ended the automatic service. Um. But he went to West Germany. 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:25.880 That's where he served at least part of his time, 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:30.320 and then he came back to the UK. He met 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:34.200 in nineteen sixty three Veronica, and they were married a 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:37.159 few months later. So a really short courtship seems to 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:41.720 be the norm does. Indeed, by nineteen seventy she had 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:45.279 given birth to three children, so they had quite the 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:50.280 family going. Uh. He was lucky in some regards that 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:53.520 a year after he got married nineteen sixty four, his 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:58.080 father passed away. That's so lucky. Well, it's lucky because 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:02.320 he inherited his father's TI dole and all of the money, 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:06.560 so he got he suddenly was in control of everything, 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:08.479 which is we're going to talk about later on is 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:11.880 kind of important. Yeah, And he also that was his 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.880 nickname was Lucky Lucan. It was it was because he won, 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.159 it was I can't remember the year, but there was 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:21.599 this two day long poker baker at oh I thought, 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:23.840 was he Okay, well you might be talking about a 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:25.720 different story. Well, now that's that's the one where I 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.000 really really one big like and I've heard the different amounts. 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:31.159 One I heard twenty thousand pounds, another one I heard 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:34.040 twenty six thousand pounds that he won in this thing, 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:36.520 and that was actually a kind of a pivotal event 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:41.040 in his life and everything. The nickname of Lucky, but well, 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:42.920 you know, he got some other names though. Well, he's 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:47.400 the Earl of Lucan, He's Baron Lucan of Castle bar 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:51.479 and this is the hardest, longest one. Baron Lucan of 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:55.880 Malcolm Lucan and Baronet of Nova Scotia. He's a Baronet 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:59.480 of Nova Scotia. Yes, yeah, yeah. This whole royal title 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:03.559 thing is still confusing, Like you know why Prince Charles 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:05.560 is called the Prince of Wales, you know, I mean 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:07.880 stuff like that. I'm not we're not going to go 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:10.039 into that right now. He can't be charge of the 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:12.280 United Kingdom yet. But because he can't be in charge 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:16.600 of the United Kingdom, yes, just like a part of it. 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:20.400 That's my theory. I'm out to just defend all of 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:24.279 our British listens going to happen. I'm sorry, folks that 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:26.920 we don't understand this whole thing. Yeah, well we've We've 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:30.279 had British listeners right and say they understand how difficult 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:33.400 it is to understand it. So yeah, um, so, like 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:36.320 I said, his father passed away. You know, he gets 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:39.000 all the titles, he gets all the money, he's got 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:44.040 a full he's got a family. Everything seems hunky dory 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:47.360 from the outside. It really did seem that way. But 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:51.160 once you got inside and you got saw the underbelly 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:54.720 of everything, you really kind of saw how tenuous and 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:57.120 not so good a lot of things work. Well, yeah, 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:59.520 for one thing, he quit his job. He was a banker. 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.240 You're right. But but before we get to that, let's 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:05.520 talk about his school because that's kind of a it 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:10.280 plays a pivotal bit in his gambling. He did um. 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:14.120 He attended Eton College, which is a boy's boarding school. 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.560 Apparently he was quite creative while he was there because 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:22.160 he made his side money being a bookie and also 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:25.880 racing on horse racing, so he was gambling. He was 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:29.480 making enough money to have plenty of spending cash. When 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:33.160 he went to Germany during his national service days, that's 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:36.200 where he learned to play poker and evidently was quite 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.360 good at it. And of course then he wanted to 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:44.600 gamble on everything, so he was playing poker and um, 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:47.040 backgammon was the other one. Backammon's the other one that 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:48.840 he liked to play a lot. Those are games of skill, 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:51.600 which he was good at. But he also liked games 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:54.080 of chance, which is a problem because he played things 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:59.080 like baccarat, which is complete and total luck. It's too 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:04.840 long to explain. Um, but he was also good at bridge. 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:08.280 I understand he was. He was good at gambling. He 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:12.040 was good at cards and games of strategy, and especially 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:15.400 when they had money writing on him. I'm sure that. 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:17.120 I'm sure that was more fun than you know, we're 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:19.560 just working for a living. Oh, I'm sure it was, 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.920 because as you said, he uh, he did quit his 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:26.400 job eventually, but he when he got out of the service, 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:30.080 he came back to London. He got a job working 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:33.480 at a merchant as a merchant banker or at a 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:36.439 merchant bank I should say he was earning five pounds 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.400 a year, which at that time is not bad money, 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:42.800 but for a guy who likes to gamble, that's not 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:46.240 enough money. And then after what you were talking about, 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:50.240 when he won some obscene some in a single night, 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:52.439 that's when he decided he was going to be a 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:56.680 professional gambler, exactly said. The gambling also didn't really mesh 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:58.559 well with having a day job because most of this 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:02.360 gambling stuff was all kind of all night stuff or 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:04.160 at least two or three or four in the more. Yeah, 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:08.040 it was a late night activity. Yeah, which the gambling though, 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.000 that's where we start to see some of the problem 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:14.240 because even before he inherited all the money, he wasn't 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:17.480 winning all the time. You never do well, you never 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.160 do when you're gambling. But it was more apparent what 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:23.240 his winning streaks were because he would go into debt 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:26.640 for it. Family would have to bail him out sometimes, 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:29.200 and he honored his debts. You know, the family would 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:30.640 come in and pay it all up, and then he 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:32.880 would take a couple of years to pay that person back. 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:35.560 It wasn't like he was filching on him, but he 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.840 was losing decent sums of money. Yeah, it just it 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:42.240 seems like his his game plan wasn't that good. Yeah, No, 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:45.520 I don't think that it was that great. Now, I 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:47.720 talked about the fact that when his father passed away, 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:51.560 he inherited a whole bunch of money. He smartly used 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.200 some of that money to pay off his debts. So 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:58.880 he at least started from that point forward with not oh, 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.640 not in the hole, which is a good thing. But 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:05.520 then he kept gambling. But then he kept gambling, exactly right, 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:09.760 That's absolutely the problem. He was a member, or one 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:12.880 of the early members of a place called the Claremont Club, 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.360 which is a gambling club. It was a club in 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:21.480 London and it served two high titled people. That's that's 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:23.199 the way I'm going to say that. It had quite 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:28.640 the clientele there was. There was dukes, marquees, Earl's cabinet ministers, 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:31.200 I mean we're talking the upper echelon came to this 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.240 club and gambled. It wasn't like the Indian casino down 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:36.959 the street where anybody could just walk in and drop 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.240 their their nickels in the machine. You've got to be 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:41.440 a member. You gotta be a member, and it wasn't 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:43.800 cheap to be a member. And I wondered about this too, 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:45.920 because naturally, you know me, I went to Google Maps 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:48.120 and looked at looked at where it was in London 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:50.800 and where he lived in London he lived he lived 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.120 just a mile south. So I wonder if he bought 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:56.559 his house specifically to be close to the club. I 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.480 was just a coincidence. I think that was a coincidence. 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:02.880 I really think that had to be a coincidence. Um, 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:06.040 there's some really interesting history on the Claremont Club. If 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:08.240 anybody wants to get into it. We won't go into 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:10.439 it now, but if you want to read on it. 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.160 They were scamming their customers and it's really kind of 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:16.640 interesting how they were doing it. Yeah, they were. They 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:19.360 were totally skimming and scamming. It was really interesting. And 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:23.840 that's that's This club was founded by James aspen All correct, correct, Yeah, correct, 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:26.520 it was who will come up later on and we'll 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:29.040 be talking about him, I guess. Yeah. Let's uh, let's 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:31.800 keep moving on though, with the lifestyles of the rich 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:36.600 and famous here, which is the things that that Bingham 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.640 would do. He he had the life. He had the 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:41.559 perfect life for you know, a guy with money. He 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.280 could do what he wants. He had, He had a 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.800 an Aston Martin. He liked to raise speed modes. He 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:53.640 would drink expensive booze if you know it struck him. 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:55.480 He and his friends would go down and rent a 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:59.320 plane and go wherever it was they decided that day 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.079 they wanted to go. I mean, he could do what 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:04.920 he wanted because he had all the money. There's a 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:07.840 There's another fun fact though, and I know this one 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:12.040 is there's a little bit of discussion on it, which is, 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:15.880 if you've seen some of the photos of him when 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:19.559 he's i'd say about thirty or thirty five years old, 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:24.280 several years before he disappears, he's quite the dashing figure. 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:26.480 He's got. You know, he's got his collared shirt on, 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:29.319 his hair is greased back or kind of slicked back. 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:35.880 He's got that typical English mustache. I mean, he's just, yes, 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:39.400 the the the English gentleman. Yeah. And it was kind 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:42.240 of a handsome guy he was. And he was actually 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:46.240 approached to play the part, to try out to play 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:51.560 the part of James Bond because his description fits so perfectly. Now. 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:55.520 He turned down the because Sean Connery had found out 0:12:55.559 --> 0:13:00.000 about it and kicked his ass. No, he had. Evidently 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.720 he tried out for a movie once before and never 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:05.760 even made it past the initial screening, So that turned 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:10.120 him off of movies. I guess, I guess. I don't know. Well, 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:12.679 I probably thought that it was beneath his dignity attemption, 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:17.400 have to audition. Yeah, just said you're the next James Bond. 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:22.400 That's right. Yeah, maybe, but and I have but written 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:26.480 in all capitals. Not everything was that great at home 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:31.280 besides the money part. His family, like you know, playing 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:34.240 and gambling and flying anywhere and probably like you know, 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:36.600 believing the kids and theeping with a lot of different 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:40.920 ladies didn't pan out for him. Evidently not. Actually, according 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:45.199 to Lady Lucan's website, he was not an adulter. She says, 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:48.800 I never got the impression that he was used playing 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:52.280 the field. He liked to play the cards, not the ladies. Yeah. Yeah, 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:55.679 he might have been a cheater too, according to Lady Lucan, 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.640 and she had every reason to not like him. Yeah, 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:01.719 she has every reason, she says. Yeah. She says that 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:06.440 he was not an adulterer. All right, Well let's let's 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:09.640 talk about Lady Lukenwell we're at it because, like I said, 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:13.520 between nineteen sixty three and nineteen seven, sixty four and 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:18.960 seventy she gave birth to three children. Well, it turns 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:23.800 out that she had some problems with with being a parent. 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:25.800 And it's not that they're not being a parent, but 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:28.600 she experienced something that a lot of women experience, which 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:33.320 is they call it postpartum or postnatal depression. We've only 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:38.080 ever heard that postpartum, but yes, so if you don't 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.240 know what that is, it's a depression that a lot 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:45.560 of parents experience once the child is born. Women only, 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.080 women only, because I'd heard that men get it, but 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.840 I don't understand. I think that childbirth the whole process, 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:55.360 and afterwards you your hormones are doing all kinds of 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:59.480 crazy stuff. So yeah, it's pretty common. I wouldn't say 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:02.360 pretty common, but it's it's common enough that we know 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:06.160 about it. That doesn't mean that, you know, all women 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.880 are going to go through hypercentage, but some women do. 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.320 I'm just saying that it's not like common. I guess 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:14.640 what I'm saying is it's not rare at all. Okay, 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:17.400 you probably know somebody in your You probably do know 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:19.800 somebody that that experienced it, even if it was for 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.560 a short time or like a very mild case. Yes, 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:26.880 she did not have a mild case. She was extremely 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:30.600 depressed to the point that I believe it was in 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:34.840 nineteen seventy one. Being a basically John Beingham basically spent 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:37.920 a lot of time taking her around, trying to get 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.880 help for her, and you know, trying to help figure 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.200 out what's wrong with his wife. I mean, I have 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:46.600 to guess that he cared enough to do that if 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:50.200 you're going to spend all that time. He then allegedly 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:53.960 tried to have her committed, which which was not that 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:56.080 back in those days. It was not considered as heinous 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:59.280 of a deed somebody committed, no, but she fought it, 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:01.560 and so he didn't. I believe at the time it 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:03.840 was supposed to be a voluntary committal. Is what he 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:06.320 was trying to get her to go for while they 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.720 were at the sanitarium? Is that what it would have been? 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.640 I guess, okay, but she wasn't down for it. Well, 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:14.960 the thing about it is too I I appreciate your 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:17.200 point of view, because if you're already depressed. Can you 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:19.480 imagine how much more depressing it's going to be to 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:21.640 be in one of those places. Yes, we've and we've 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:25.120 had this conversation before. So especially if it's you know, 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:28.440 wrapped up in your your feelings for your children, to 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:31.440 be told basically like hey listen, no you can't actually 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:34.200 be near them. Yeah, that's got to be a pretty 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:38.320 big glow. Yeah, she was actually her problems. I think 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:42.000 I went beyond just postpartum depression. I'm sure that she 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:44.560 that there was more there than that. At a later, 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.200 much a later stage in her life, she was diagnosed 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:50.480 as bipolar. She had some issues, She had some issues, 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.600 But the point is it didn't do good things for 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:59.040 their marriage, you know, I believe it was. Yeah, it 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:02.320 was the Chris of nineteen seventy two. The family spent 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:06.560 Christmas together. Uh, that didn't go well, and in January 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:10.040 of seventy three, John moved out of the house. So 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.600 now they're they're basically they're on the skids and they're 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:18.640 kind of separated. She was interested in trying to reconcile, 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:21.639 and she did try to reconcile the marriage, but at 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:24.480 that point he had no interest in it. He was 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:27.760 basically done with the marriage. Yeah, it sounds you know, 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.760 it sounds to me like she was kind of kind 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:32.760 of hard to get along with. But you probably know 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:34.919 this that her kids, none of her kids speak to 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:37.800 her anymore. It also sounds like he was maybe a 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:42.200 little like hardheaded because he was convinced that he could 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:44.320 do a better job, and he did everything he could 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:47.040 to prove that. Yeah, I mean, he he was kind 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:50.320 of a big jerk about this whole thing. And then 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:51.959 but then during the whole are you going to talk 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:54.159 about the child custody, Well just just a little bit, 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:56.639 but go ahead, yeah, yeah, no please, Yeah. Well, he 0:17:56.960 --> 0:17:59.000 she did something in the in the custody battle to 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:04.560 that that really incensed him. Apparently, she she brought out 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:07.200 a few accusations thinks that would not be considered really 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:11.800 really heinous today, But she told the court that he 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:17.399 was into some certain kinky sexual practices that again that 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:19.960 would not be considered and but you know, considering the 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:23.960 time and a proper, proper lady does not do those things. Yeah, 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.760 and he considered that to be a huge active betrayal 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:30.560 and uh yeah, so that that kind of hardened his 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:33.119 heart towards her. I think Yeah. You know, there's a 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:35.920 bunch of dirty laundry that we could air about their 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:37.720 custody battle, but I'm not going to do it because 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:40.919 that's exactly what it is. It's it's dirty laundry. Here's 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:44.360 what you need to know. A judge ruled he lost, 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:48.520 she kept custody of the children, and he had to 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:51.240 he had to pay her, you know, he um, it 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.440 was a stipend is the only word I can think of. 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:57.840 An allowance or alimony, Yeah, an allowance, alimony, whatever the 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.320 official title was. He had to pay. But that would 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.560 have been expensive because not only the household and their 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:06.520 living expenses and everything, but also they didn't have a nanny. 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:10.119 The judge ordered to nanny Anti because plus he had 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:13.879 to maintain his own household around the corner. And and 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:16.720 he did some things like, you know, he played games 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:18.800 with her as much as I'm sure she played games 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:22.399 with him. When you read about the story, sometimes you 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:27.040 hear that after he lost the custody battle, he spiraled downhill, 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.040 except that when I've read the stuff about him, his 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:34.680 actions don't really support that. He basically went on about 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:36.720 his life. I mean, he's still trying to do things 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:39.200 to talk to the kids and spend time with them. 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.159 But he was still going to the club, he was 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:43.400 still gambling, he was still hanging out with his friends. 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:47.199 There was no huge market change in him all of 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:50.359 the sudden, nothing, nothing that would indicate to me that 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:54.520 he was spiraling downhill. So I discredit that a little bit. 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:56.760 But you will come across that when you read the story. 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.320 It does seem that he had some pretty serious problems. 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.720 So he it. Yeah, let's at this point move forward 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.280 in time a little bit. We're gonna go to the 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:15.000 night of Thursday, November seven night Lord Lucan himself. Specifically, 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:18.440 he had met a friend that day at for some 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:21.680 conversation impossible business dealings, and then he gave that person 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:25.239 a ride home and then he went home himself. He 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.280 had plans later that evening to meet his friends at 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.960 the Claremont Club at eleven o'clock that night, so it 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:34.800 appears from the outside that it was just a normal 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:37.239 Thursday night for him. Oh and by the way, there 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:39.520 are there there were witnesses who saw him at the 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:42.359 Claremont Club at nine pm that night too. Yes, he 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:45.439 had been there once. I believe he was meeting a 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:48.679 friend m who it was they were going to have dinner. 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:52.560 He decided to decline dinner and then suggested meeting again 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:54.560 at at the eleven o'clock time. So evidently he was 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:56.720 just gonna walk home, do whatever he was gonna do, 0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:59.560 and then come back. Yeah, there's there's some serious confusion 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:01.560 in the time line in this hole. We're gonna talk 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:07.280 about this whole timeline. It is. It's wonky. That's the 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:10.360 only way I can describe it as wonky. But we're 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:12.680 gonna keep moving forward as much as we can. Here. 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:16.760 We're gonna go over to Veronica's house where things are 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:21.240 normal as well. Kind of a normal Thursday night. Uh. 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:26.000 Sandra the nanny, she normally didn't work on Thursdays, but 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:29.399 she for some reason was there that Thursday, so she 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:31.919 was at the house. I think she she took one 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:34.360 night a week off and it's usually Thursday, but apparently 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:37.640 this this week it was Wednesday instead of Thursday. Okay, yeah, 0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:40.400 I mean it's hard to say exactly I've seen, because 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:44.159 I've seen it several times. She was always gone on Thursdays, 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:49.960 or this particular one was a weird case. I don't know. Indeed, indeed, 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:53.159 really shouldn't have changed her plants. This literature, this is 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:59.159 called foreshadowing. So just before nine o'clock that night, she 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:02.640 went down to the basement kitchen. She was gonna get 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:07.080 Veronica some tea and some for herself. While she was 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.240 in the kitchen at the basement kitchen, or maybe possibly 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:13.480 just when she walked into it, someone beat her to 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:17.639 death with a lead pipe and then stuffed her body 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:23.080 into a sack, sack of all things. But I disagree. 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:27.000 I think it was the professor with you would do it. 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:29.240 You knew it was going to him. Yeah, kind of 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:31.800 when you see the lead pipe thing, you can't help 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:36.080 but think of it. You're right. Okay, So she's beaten. 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:39.120 She's now in the U S mail sack. Veronica, who 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:41.919 is expecting her to come back upstairs, is kind of 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:44.480