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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by a rampaging

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Speaker 1: herd of guinea pigs. Instead, it is supported by the

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Speaker 1: generous contributions of people like you, our listeners on Patreon.

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Speaker 1: Visit patreon dot com slash thinking sideways to learn more

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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't just stories of things we simply

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Speaker 1: don't know the answer too. Well. Hey everybody, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Steve, of course,

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Speaker 1: as always, joined by Devin and Joe. I was gonna

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Speaker 1: play chicken, but you blinked. Next episode is going to

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Speaker 1: be a really long. As always, we have another unsolved

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Speaker 1: mystery for you this week. We're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: the appearance of Richard John Bingham, also known as Lord Lucan,

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Speaker 1: the seventh Earl of Lucan. Yeah, that guy. Yeah. None

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Speaker 1: of his titles were actually Lord Lucan though, were they?

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Speaker 1: They were all like Earl and Duke and Baron. I

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Speaker 1: think Lord was kind of a common It wasn't one

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Speaker 1: of his official titles. Well, somebody can write about how

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Speaker 1: ignorant I am about that. That'll be good. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how that works either. I don't really understand the

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Speaker 1: workings of the aristocracy. But he actually, I can I

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Speaker 1: know where the Lord Lucan is. Well, why don't she

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Speaker 1: say he was living in London. Eighth Earl of Lucan

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Speaker 1: is his son George. So that's it. I said, we

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Speaker 1: wanted the seventh Joe, Yeah, oh that guy. That's that's

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Speaker 1: a good point. But there is a Lord Lucan living

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Speaker 1: in London. I'm sure there is no one in the

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Speaker 1: white pages to yeah, well, before we get into the story,

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Speaker 1: now that we've already gone all over the map, I

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Speaker 1: do want to say that this was a listener's suggestion.

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Speaker 1: This story was suggested by a whole bunch of people.

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Speaker 1: Still want one of our top seven ten most requested. No,

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Speaker 1: it was not, but it's got a fair number of

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Speaker 1: requests over the years. Until I started looking into this,

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Speaker 1: I've never even heard of the guy, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: realize how huge the story is in Britain today. This

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Speaker 1: is a mainstay of the British media. They dragged this

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Speaker 1: out and every six to twelve months trotted around on

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Speaker 1: the paper and then put it away till next year

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Speaker 1: when they need some kind of cover splash, and then

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Speaker 1: they find him. But we're we're kind of giving it away.

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Speaker 1: So let's let's say what the actual mystery is here.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the murder of a woman

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Speaker 1: by the name of Sandra Rivett. Uh, the assault of

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Speaker 1: Veronica Bingham, who is the lord's wife. No, that's not

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Speaker 1: a thing, right, didn't we find that out? That it's

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Speaker 1: not it's not an official thing that that lord. The

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Speaker 1: wives of lords are not automatically, ladies, is that a

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Speaker 1: thing everybody calls lady Lucan? Did you call her that? Yes,

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Speaker 1: Lady Lucan, all right? And then of course the subsequent

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Speaker 1: disappearance of her husband, John Bingham, Lord Lucan, Yes, in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four. So we have a murder, of beating

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Speaker 1: and a disappearance all wrapped up into one story. We

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Speaker 1: should probably get started. Endless decades, all right, um, So

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Speaker 1: let's go ahead and start at the top, which is

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Speaker 1: when he was born, well, not exactly when he was born,

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Speaker 1: but don't really care about that. Bingham was born into nobility.

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Speaker 1: His father, George Bingham, was the sixth Earl of Lucan,

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Speaker 1: and as a young man he of course did his

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Speaker 1: National service, which I didn't realize at that time. This

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Speaker 1: is the early fifties, Britain still had basically a conscription

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Speaker 1: system where men had to serve eighteen months. We had

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Speaker 1: any we had it here in the Stage until the

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Speaker 1: late sixties. Yeah, I for some reason, it just never

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Speaker 1: sunk in that everybody had to do that. And let

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Speaker 1: me correct myself. I think it was actually the very

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Speaker 1: early seventies when they finally did away with it here

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Speaker 1: in the stage in the state. Well, I know, I

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Speaker 1: know it was in the sixties in Britain when they

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Speaker 1: ended the automatic service. Um. But he went to West Germany.

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Speaker 1: That's where he served at least part of his time,

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Speaker 1: and then he came back to the UK. He met

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty three Veronica, and they were married a

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Speaker 1: few months later. So a really short courtship seems to

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Speaker 1: be the norm does. Indeed, by nineteen seventy she had

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Speaker 1: given birth to three children, so they had quite the

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Speaker 1: family going. Uh. He was lucky in some regards that

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Speaker 1: a year after he got married nineteen sixty four, his

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Speaker 1: father passed away. That's so lucky. Well, it's lucky because

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Speaker 1: he inherited his father's TI dole and all of the money,

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Speaker 1: so he got he suddenly was in control of everything,

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Speaker 1: which is we're going to talk about later on is

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Speaker 1: kind of important. Yeah, And he also that was his

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Speaker 1: nickname was Lucky Lucan. It was it was because he won,

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Speaker 1: it was I can't remember the year, but there was

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Speaker 1: this two day long poker baker at oh I thought,

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Speaker 1: was he Okay, well you might be talking about a

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Speaker 1: different story. Well, now that's that's the one where I

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Speaker 1: really really one big like and I've heard the different amounts.

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Speaker 1: One I heard twenty thousand pounds, another one I heard

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Speaker 1: twenty six thousand pounds that he won in this thing,

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Speaker 1: and that was actually a kind of a pivotal event

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Speaker 1: in his life and everything. The nickname of Lucky, but well,

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Speaker 1: you know, he got some other names though. Well, he's

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Speaker 1: the Earl of Lucan, He's Baron Lucan of Castle bar

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Speaker 1: and this is the hardest, longest one. Baron Lucan of

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Speaker 1: Malcolm Lucan and Baronet of Nova Scotia. He's a Baronet

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Speaker 1: of Nova Scotia. Yes, yeah, yeah. This whole royal title

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Speaker 1: thing is still confusing, Like you know why Prince Charles

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Speaker 1: is called the Prince of Wales, you know, I mean

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. I'm not we're not going to go

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Speaker 1: into that right now. He can't be charge of the

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Speaker 1: United Kingdom yet. But because he can't be in charge

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Speaker 1: of the United Kingdom, yes, just like a part of it.

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Speaker 1: That's my theory. I'm out to just defend all of

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Speaker 1: our British listens going to happen. I'm sorry, folks that

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Speaker 1: we don't understand this whole thing. Yeah, well we've We've

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Speaker 1: had British listeners right and say they understand how difficult

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Speaker 1: it is to understand it. So yeah, um, so, like

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Speaker 1: I said, his father passed away. You know, he gets

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Speaker 1: all the titles, he gets all the money, he's got

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Speaker 1: a full he's got a family. Everything seems hunky dory

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Speaker 1: from the outside. It really did seem that way. But

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Speaker 1: once you got inside and you got saw the underbelly

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Speaker 1: of everything, you really kind of saw how tenuous and

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Speaker 1: not so good a lot of things work. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: for one thing, he quit his job. He was a banker.

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Speaker 1: You're right. But but before we get to that, let's

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Speaker 1: talk about his school because that's kind of a it

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Speaker 1: plays a pivotal bit in his gambling. He did um.

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Speaker 1: He attended Eton College, which is a boy's boarding school.

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Speaker 1: Apparently he was quite creative while he was there because

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Speaker 1: he made his side money being a bookie and also

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Speaker 1: racing on horse racing, so he was gambling. He was

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Speaker 1: making enough money to have plenty of spending cash. When

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Speaker 1: he went to Germany during his national service days, that's

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Speaker 1: where he learned to play poker and evidently was quite

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Speaker 1: good at it. And of course then he wanted to

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Speaker 1: gamble on everything, so he was playing poker and um,

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Speaker 1: backgammon was the other one. Backammon's the other one that

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Speaker 1: he liked to play a lot. Those are games of skill,

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Speaker 1: which he was good at. But he also liked games

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Speaker 1: of chance, which is a problem because he played things

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Speaker 1: like baccarat, which is complete and total luck. It's too

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Speaker 1: long to explain. Um, but he was also good at bridge.

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Speaker 1: I understand he was. He was good at gambling. He

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Speaker 1: was good at cards and games of strategy, and especially

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Speaker 1: when they had money writing on him. I'm sure that.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that was more fun than you know, we're

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Speaker 1: just working for a living. Oh, I'm sure it was,

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Speaker 1: because as you said, he uh, he did quit his

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Speaker 1: job eventually, but he when he got out of the service,

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Speaker 1: he came back to London. He got a job working

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Speaker 1: at a merchant as a merchant banker or at a

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Speaker 1: merchant bank I should say he was earning five pounds

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Speaker 1: a year, which at that time is not bad money,

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Speaker 1: but for a guy who likes to gamble, that's not

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Speaker 1: enough money. And then after what you were talking about,

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Speaker 1: when he won some obscene some in a single night,

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Speaker 1: that's when he decided he was going to be a

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Speaker 1: professional gambler, exactly said. The gambling also didn't really mesh

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Speaker 1: well with having a day job because most of this

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Speaker 1: gambling stuff was all kind of all night stuff or

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Speaker 1: at least two or three or four in the more. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was a late night activity. Yeah, which the gambling though,

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Speaker 1: that's where we start to see some of the problem

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Speaker 1: because even before he inherited all the money, he wasn't

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Speaker 1: winning all the time. You never do well, you never

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Speaker 1: do when you're gambling. But it was more apparent what

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Speaker 1: his winning streaks were because he would go into debt

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Speaker 1: for it. Family would have to bail him out sometimes,

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Speaker 1: and he honored his debts. You know, the family would

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Speaker 1: come in and pay it all up, and then he

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Speaker 1: would take a couple of years to pay that person back.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like he was filching on him, but he

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Speaker 1: was losing decent sums of money. Yeah, it just it

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Speaker 1: seems like his his game plan wasn't that good. Yeah, No,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that it was that great. Now, I

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Speaker 1: talked about the fact that when his father passed away,

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Speaker 1: he inherited a whole bunch of money. He smartly used

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Speaker 1: some of that money to pay off his debts. So

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Speaker 1: he at least started from that point forward with not oh,

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Speaker 1: not in the hole, which is a good thing. But

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Speaker 1: then he kept gambling. But then he kept gambling, exactly right,

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Speaker 1: That's absolutely the problem. He was a member, or one

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Speaker 1: of the early members of a place called the Claremont Club,

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Speaker 1: which is a gambling club. It was a club in

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Speaker 1: London and it served two high titled people. That's that's

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Speaker 1: the way I'm going to say that. It had quite

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Speaker 1: the clientele there was. There was dukes, marquees, Earl's cabinet ministers,

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Speaker 1: I mean we're talking the upper echelon came to this

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Speaker 1: club and gambled. It wasn't like the Indian casino down

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Speaker 1: the street where anybody could just walk in and drop

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Speaker 1: their their nickels in the machine. You've got to be

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Speaker 1: a member. You gotta be a member, and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: cheap to be a member. And I wondered about this too,

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Speaker 1: because naturally, you know me, I went to Google Maps

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Speaker 1: and looked at looked at where it was in London

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Speaker 1: and where he lived in London he lived he lived

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Speaker 1: just a mile south. So I wonder if he bought

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Speaker 1: his house specifically to be close to the club. I

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Speaker 1: was just a coincidence. I think that was a coincidence.

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Speaker 1: I really think that had to be a coincidence. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's some really interesting history on the Claremont Club. If

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Speaker 1: anybody wants to get into it. We won't go into

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Speaker 1: it now, but if you want to read on it.

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Speaker 1: They were scamming their customers and it's really kind of

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Speaker 1: interesting how they were doing it. Yeah, they were. They

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Speaker 1: were totally skimming and scamming. It was really interesting. And

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Speaker 1: that's that's This club was founded by James aspen All correct, correct, Yeah, correct,

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Speaker 1: it was who will come up later on and we'll

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Speaker 1: be talking about him, I guess. Yeah. Let's uh, let's

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Speaker 1: keep moving on though, with the lifestyles of the rich

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Speaker 1: and famous here, which is the things that that Bingham

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Speaker 1: would do. He he had the life. He had the

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Speaker 1: perfect life for you know, a guy with money. He

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Speaker 1: could do what he wants. He had, He had a

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Speaker 1: an Aston Martin. He liked to raise speed modes. He

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Speaker 1: would drink expensive booze if you know it struck him.

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Speaker 1: He and his friends would go down and rent a

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Speaker 1: plane and go wherever it was they decided that day

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Speaker 1: they wanted to go. I mean, he could do what

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Speaker 1: he wanted because he had all the money. There's a

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Speaker 1: There's another fun fact though, and I know this one

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Speaker 1: is there's a little bit of discussion on it, which is,

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Speaker 1: if you've seen some of the photos of him when

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Speaker 1: he's i'd say about thirty or thirty five years old,

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Speaker 1: several years before he disappears, he's quite the dashing figure.

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Speaker 1: He's got. You know, he's got his collared shirt on,

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Speaker 1: his hair is greased back or kind of slicked back.

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Speaker 1: He's got that typical English mustache. I mean, he's just, yes,

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Speaker 1: the the the English gentleman. Yeah. And it was kind

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Speaker 1: of a handsome guy he was. And he was actually

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Speaker 1: approached to play the part, to try out to play

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Speaker 1: the part of James Bond because his description fits so perfectly. Now.

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Speaker 1: He turned down the because Sean Connery had found out

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Speaker 1: about it and kicked his ass. No, he had. Evidently

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Speaker 1: he tried out for a movie once before and never

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Speaker 1: even made it past the initial screening, So that turned

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Speaker 1: him off of movies. I guess, I guess. I don't know. Well,

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Speaker 1: I probably thought that it was beneath his dignity attemption,

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Speaker 1: have to audition. Yeah, just said you're the next James Bond.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, maybe, but and I have but written

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Speaker 1: in all capitals. Not everything was that great at home

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Speaker 1: besides the money part. His family, like you know, playing

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Speaker 1: and gambling and flying anywhere and probably like you know,

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Speaker 1: believing the kids and theeping with a lot of different

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Speaker 1: ladies didn't pan out for him. Evidently not. Actually, according

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Speaker 1: to Lady Lucan's website, he was not an adulter. She says,

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Speaker 1: I never got the impression that he was used playing

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Speaker 1: the field. He liked to play the cards, not the ladies. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he might have been a cheater too, according to Lady Lucan,

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Speaker 1: and she had every reason to not like him. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she has every reason, she says. Yeah. She says that

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Speaker 1: he was not an adulterer. All right, Well let's let's

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Speaker 1: talk about Lady Lukenwell we're at it because, like I said,

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Speaker 1: between nineteen sixty three and nineteen seven, sixty four and

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Speaker 1: seventy she gave birth to three children. Well, it turns

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Speaker 1: out that she had some problems with with being a parent.

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Speaker 1: And it's not that they're not being a parent, but

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Speaker 1: she experienced something that a lot of women experience, which

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Speaker 1: is they call it postpartum or postnatal depression. We've only

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Speaker 1: ever heard that postpartum, but yes, so if you don't

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Speaker 1: know what that is, it's a depression that a lot

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Speaker 1: of parents experience once the child is born. Women only,

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Speaker 1: women only, because I'd heard that men get it, but

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Speaker 1: I don't understand. I think that childbirth the whole process,

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Speaker 1: and afterwards you your hormones are doing all kinds of

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Speaker 1: crazy stuff. So yeah, it's pretty common. I wouldn't say

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Speaker 1: pretty common, but it's it's common enough that we know

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Speaker 1: about it. That doesn't mean that, you know, all women

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Speaker 1: are going to go through hypercentage, but some women do.

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying that it's not like common. I guess

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying is it's not rare at all. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you probably know somebody in your You probably do know

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Speaker 1: somebody that that experienced it, even if it was for

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Speaker 1: a short time or like a very mild case. Yes,

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Speaker 1: she did not have a mild case. She was extremely

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Speaker 1: depressed to the point that I believe it was in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one. Being a basically John Beingham basically spent

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Speaker 1: a lot of time taking her around, trying to get

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Speaker 1: help for her, and you know, trying to help figure

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Speaker 1: out what's wrong with his wife. I mean, I have

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Speaker 1: to guess that he cared enough to do that if

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Speaker 1: you're going to spend all that time. He then allegedly

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Speaker 1: tried to have her committed, which which was not that

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Speaker 1: back in those days. It was not considered as heinous

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Speaker 1: of a deed somebody committed, no, but she fought it,

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Speaker 1: and so he didn't. I believe at the time it

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Speaker 1: was supposed to be a voluntary committal. Is what he

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Speaker 1: was trying to get her to go for while they

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Speaker 1: were at the sanitarium? Is that what it would have been?

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Speaker 1: I guess, okay, but she wasn't down for it. Well,

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Speaker 1: the thing about it is too I I appreciate your

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Speaker 1: point of view, because if you're already depressed. Can you

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Speaker 1: imagine how much more depressing it's going to be to

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Speaker 1: be in one of those places. Yes, we've and we've

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Speaker 1: had this conversation before. So especially if it's you know,

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Speaker 1: wrapped up in your your feelings for your children, to

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Speaker 1: be told basically like hey listen, no you can't actually

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Speaker 1: be near them. Yeah, that's got to be a pretty

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Speaker 1: big glow. Yeah, she was actually her problems. I think

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Speaker 1: I went beyond just postpartum depression. I'm sure that she

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Speaker 1: that there was more there than that. At a later,

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Speaker 1: much a later stage in her life, she was diagnosed

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Speaker 1: as bipolar. She had some issues, She had some issues,

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Speaker 1: But the point is it didn't do good things for

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Speaker 1: their marriage, you know, I believe it was. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was the Chris of nineteen seventy two. The family spent

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Speaker 1: Christmas together. Uh, that didn't go well, and in January

300
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Speaker 1: of seventy three, John moved out of the house. So

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Speaker 1: now they're they're basically they're on the skids and they're

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Speaker 1: kind of separated. She was interested in trying to reconcile,

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Speaker 1: and she did try to reconcile the marriage, but at

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Speaker 1: that point he had no interest in it. He was

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Speaker 1: basically done with the marriage. Yeah, it sounds you know,

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Speaker 1: it sounds to me like she was kind of kind

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Speaker 1: of hard to get along with. But you probably know

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Speaker 1: this that her kids, none of her kids speak to

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Speaker 1: her anymore. It also sounds like he was maybe a

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Speaker 1: little like hardheaded because he was convinced that he could

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Speaker 1: do a better job, and he did everything he could

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Speaker 1: to prove that. Yeah, I mean, he he was kind

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Speaker 1: of a big jerk about this whole thing. And then

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Speaker 1: but then during the whole are you going to talk

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Speaker 1: about the child custody, Well just just a little bit,

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Speaker 1: but go ahead, yeah, yeah, no please, Yeah. Well, he

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Speaker 1: she did something in the in the custody battle to

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Speaker 1: that that really incensed him. Apparently, she she brought out

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Speaker 1: a few accusations thinks that would not be considered really

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Speaker 1: really heinous today, But she told the court that he

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Speaker 1: was into some certain kinky sexual practices that again that

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Speaker 1: would not be considered and but you know, considering the

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Speaker 1: time and a proper, proper lady does not do those things. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he considered that to be a huge active betrayal

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Speaker 1: and uh yeah, so that that kind of hardened his

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Speaker 1: heart towards her. I think Yeah. You know, there's a

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Speaker 1: bunch of dirty laundry that we could air about their

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Speaker 1: custody battle, but I'm not going to do it because

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Speaker 1: that's exactly what it is. It's it's dirty laundry. Here's

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Speaker 1: what you need to know. A judge ruled he lost,

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Speaker 1: she kept custody of the children, and he had to

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Speaker 1: he had to pay her, you know, he um, it

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Speaker 1: was a stipend is the only word I can think of.

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Speaker 1: An allowance or alimony, Yeah, an allowance, alimony, whatever the

335
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Speaker 1: official title was. He had to pay. But that would

336
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,560
Speaker 1: have been expensive because not only the household and their

337
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Speaker 1: living expenses and everything, but also they didn't have a nanny.

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Speaker 1: The judge ordered to nanny Anti because plus he had

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Speaker 1: to maintain his own household around the corner. And and

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00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,720
Speaker 1: he did some things like, you know, he played games

341
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Speaker 1: with her as much as I'm sure she played games

342
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Speaker 1: with him. When you read about the story, sometimes you

343
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Speaker 1: hear that after he lost the custody battle, he spiraled downhill,

344
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Speaker 1: except that when I've read the stuff about him, his

345
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,680
Speaker 1: actions don't really support that. He basically went on about

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Speaker 1: his life. I mean, he's still trying to do things

347
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Speaker 1: to talk to the kids and spend time with them.

348
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Speaker 1: But he was still going to the club, he was

349
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Speaker 1: still gambling, he was still hanging out with his friends.

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Speaker 1: There was no huge market change in him all of

351
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Speaker 1: the sudden, nothing, nothing that would indicate to me that

352
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Speaker 1: he was spiraling downhill. So I discredit that a little bit.

353
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Speaker 1: But you will come across that when you read the story.

354
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Speaker 1: It does seem that he had some pretty serious problems.

355
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Speaker 1: So he it. Yeah, let's at this point move forward

356
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,280
Speaker 1: in time a little bit. We're gonna go to the

357
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Speaker 1: night of Thursday, November seven night Lord Lucan himself. Specifically,

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Speaker 1: he had met a friend that day at for some

359
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,680
Speaker 1: conversation impossible business dealings, and then he gave that person

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00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,239
Speaker 1: a ride home and then he went home himself. He

361
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 1: had plans later that evening to meet his friends at

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Speaker 1: the Claremont Club at eleven o'clock that night, so it

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00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,800
Speaker 1: appears from the outside that it was just a normal

364
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Speaker 1: Thursday night for him. Oh and by the way, there

365
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,520
Speaker 1: are there there were witnesses who saw him at the

366
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Speaker 1: Claremont Club at nine pm that night too. Yes, he

367
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,439
Speaker 1: had been there once. I believe he was meeting a

368
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Speaker 1: friend m who it was they were going to have dinner.

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Speaker 1: He decided to decline dinner and then suggested meeting again

370
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Speaker 1: at at the eleven o'clock time. So evidently he was

371
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Speaker 1: just gonna walk home, do whatever he was gonna do,

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Speaker 1: and then come back. Yeah, there's there's some serious confusion

373
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Speaker 1: in the time line in this hole. We're gonna talk

374
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 1: about this whole timeline. It is. It's wonky. That's the

375
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,360
Speaker 1: only way I can describe it as wonky. But we're

376
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,680
Speaker 1: gonna keep moving forward as much as we can. Here.

377
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 1: We're gonna go over to Veronica's house where things are

378
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 1: normal as well. Kind of a normal Thursday night. Uh.

379
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Speaker 1: Sandra the nanny, she normally didn't work on Thursdays, but

380
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Speaker 1: she for some reason was there that Thursday, so she

381
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Speaker 1: was at the house. I think she she took one

382
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,360
Speaker 1: night a week off and it's usually Thursday, but apparently

383
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,640
Speaker 1: this this week it was Wednesday instead of Thursday. Okay, yeah,

384
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Speaker 1: I mean it's hard to say exactly I've seen, because

385
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,159
Speaker 1: I've seen it several times. She was always gone on Thursdays,

386
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 1: or this particular one was a weird case. I don't know. Indeed, indeed,

387
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,159
Speaker 1: really shouldn't have changed her plants. This literature, this is

388
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:59,159
Speaker 1: called foreshadowing. So just before nine o'clock that night, she

389
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,640
Speaker 1: went down to the basement kitchen. She was gonna get

390
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 1: Veronica some tea and some for herself. While she was

391
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 1: in the kitchen at the basement kitchen, or maybe possibly

392
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,480
Speaker 1: just when she walked into it, someone beat her to

393
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Speaker 1: death with a lead pipe and then stuffed her body

394
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 1: into a sack, sack of all things. But I disagree.

395
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 1: I think it was the professor with you would do it.

396
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 1: You knew it was going to him. Yeah, kind of

397
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 1: when you see the lead pipe thing, you can't help

398
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 1: but think of it. You're right. Okay, So she's beaten.

399
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,120
Speaker 1: She's now in the U S mail sack. Veronica, who

400
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,919
Speaker 1: is expecting her to come back upstairs, is kind of

401
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 1: wonder what's going on, so she goes to check on her.

402
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 1: And actually, I want to pause here for a second.

403
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 1: I want to talk about Yes, I want I know.

404
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,399
Speaker 1: That's why I want to talk about this before we

405
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,680
Speaker 1: keep going, because it's just gonna get more and more intense.

406
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 1: When you read about this, it this what we're about

407
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 1: to cover. It reads like who done it? Or a

408
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 1: murder mystery kind of you know, it's a Sue Grafton

409
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: or somebody like that. And I was really curious why

410
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: everything you read told it exactly the same. The details

411
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 1: always had this real big build up to them, And

412
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 1: then I figured it out. There's four authors who have

413
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 1: written quite extensively on this, one of whom happens to

414
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: have been one of the lead investigators on the case.

415
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: And everybody is then taking their information from those four sources.

416
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 1: If you trace those four sources backwards, do you know

417
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: who their main sources? Veronica, Okay, she is going to

418
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 1: tell the story in one way because she's probably got

419
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 1: a reason to whether good, bad or indifferent, She's gonna

420
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: paint it in a certain light. So I want to

421
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 1: say that now because it does come across in one

422
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,880
Speaker 1: very direct way, and one side really seems to hold

423
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 1: all the cards in this. So just be aware of

424
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 1: that as we're going through. What's about to happen next? Okay, okay,

425
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,679
Speaker 1: what happens down the stairs? So Veronica goes to the

426
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 1: stairs to the basement and calls to Sandra, and at

427
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: that point someone attacks her. Officially, we aren't sure. She

428
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 1: starts screaming her attacker tells her to shut up. It's

429
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: at that point she says that she recognized the voices

430
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: that of her husband. Here's the thing you need to

431
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 1: keep in mind, is that the basement kitchen, it was dark,

432
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 1: so she couldn't see anything down the stairs, so she

433
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: couldn't really see who her attacker was. Um, but they

434
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 1: were not in the basement, and said they were on

435
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 1: the first floor. They were on this just she had

436
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: on the stairs and then in the first floor. Yes,

437
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 1: at the top of the stairs. Yes, top of the stairs.

438
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: She had never gone down the stairs. And apparently he

439
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 1: was hiding in a closet, like hiding in the coat closet.

440
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: Is that what it was. I don't know exactly where. Again,

441
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: this is another part of that story where it's a

442
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 1: little wonky here and there, and I'm not sure where

443
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: he was hiding. I got the impression that he rushed

444
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 1: up the stairs as possible. Yeah, I I heard somewhere

445
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: that he was actually hiding in a closet or could

446
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: have been maybe just hiding around the corner in the hallway.

447
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, Well, the point is they struggled.

448
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 1: The two struggled. Um, she bit him, he knocked her

449
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 1: to the ground. Um, and then, of course this attacker,

450
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: who she says is her husband, then tries to strangle her.

451
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: I heard he also he was he was wearing gloves,

452
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 1: and I heard he also jamped some fingers down her

453
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 1: mouth just to have a quieter down. I don't know,

454
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,120
Speaker 1: it could be, you know, the strangling part. I can

455
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: get fingers down the mouth seems like a dumb thing

456
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: to do because someone's gonna bite. Yeah, I heard that

457
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 1: from a few sources. Yeah. Well, the battle ensues, at

458
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: which point she grabs his testicles, guessing not in the

459
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: nice way, squeeze and uh that's what they teach us

460
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 1: that it takes the fight out of him. Not surprising, weird. Yeah,

461
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: and he stops trying to kill her once they calmed down. Uh.

462
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 1: They go upstairs and Veronica I get that she was

463
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: trying to buy time. At this point, she figured she

464
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: was dead. She figured he was gonna kill her, even

465
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: though he had stopped fighting at that point. So they

466
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: go upstairs. She says, listen, I won't tell anybody. You

467
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: can hide out at the house for a couple of

468
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 1: days and then escape the country. And he's like, okay, Yeah,

469
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 1: that sounds like a great idea, and I think, well,

470
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: and didn't he say that essentially you have sleeping pills, right,

471
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: and he's basically he was he was saying that, well,

472
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: I won't I won't bludge and you to death, but

473
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: you can just take a whole bottle of sleeping pills.

474
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 1: I'm sure there was a lot of threats. Yeah, and

475
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 1: you can just do that, and so I'll stop bledgening.

476
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: You can just kill yourself another way, and that's it'll

477
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 1: all be okay with me, which is a little weird. Yes,

478
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 1: So he takes her upstairs and he and he's he

479
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 1: goes off into the bathroom, well not before putting one

480
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: of the children to bed, because one of the girls

481
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 1: had gotten up and he put her to bed. And then, yes,

482
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 1: they're in the bedroom. She's you know, he goes I've

483
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: heard it described. Either he was looking through the medicine

484
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 1: cabinet or he was getting towels to clean her up with.

485
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: He turned when he turned the water taps on to

486
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 1: that's when she made her breath, because the sound of

487
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: the water would cover her escape. She realized that she

488
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,959
Speaker 1: beat feet out of the house. She ran down the

489
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: street and into the Plumber's Arms, which is a pub. Yeah,

490
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: not the plumber, but the actual actually yam and told

491
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 1: everybody what was going on. So, needless to say, somebody

492
00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: the cops, cop showed up, They searched the house, They

493
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: find Saunder's body, but of course Lord Lucan is nowhere

494
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: to be found. And by the way, the finding of

495
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 1: Saunder's body was kind of a classics and something out

496
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: of Agatha Christie because they didn't actually immediately realize that

497
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: there was even a body down there. And somebody sees

498
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: this big mail bag and somebody like gave it, gave

499
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: it a kick or something in this arm flops out

500
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 1: of it. It really does read like a book. Yeah, yeah,

501
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: I thought you were gonna say they saw blood trail

502
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: straight to them. Again, somebody kicked in an arm flopped.

503
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: They were immediately they didn't really immediately realize. The investigation

504
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: here wasn't exactly bulletproof. There was possibly some contamination of

505
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: the scene. Well unless be fair right, if anybody had

506
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: been following the news at the time, if the police

507
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: had been following the news, if Lord Lucan had at

508
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: any point called the cops or talked to his friends

509
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: that were cops or whatever and said, listen, my wife's

510
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: kind of crazy. I'm gonna try and get committed. And then,

511
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 1: you know, a couple of weeks later, she comes screaming

512
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 1: hysterical and says, oh, that was a man in my house.

513
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: And they're like, okay, crazy, let's go check it out. Okay.

514
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: Well she was beat up. Yeah, she did have size.

515
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: She'd been hit like four times with a lead pipe

516
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: on the forehead something like that, and she was still conscious.

517
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: That's incredible. Well, the lead pipe was wrapped in a bandage,

518
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: which is I'm not sure that the entire pipe was

519
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: i just basically part of it, the part that he

520
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: wanted to use for for like a gripe. That's that's

521
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: kind of like you were on. I'm not entirely sure

522
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: that's that's what I'm thinking. Then I'm thinking, yeah, okay,

523
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: because yeah, as like a grip, that would make sense.

524
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: But we were talking about the kind of contamination. Yeah,

525
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: there was blood all over the house. I mean there's

526
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: blood on the stairs, there's blood on the carpon. They

527
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: then find blood in the back garden, and of course

528
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,239
Speaker 1: there's blood in the basement, but they don't know if

529
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: the blood in the back garden. Wasn't necessarily accidentally transferred

530
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: there by one of the police officers, because yeah, and

531
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: obviously they had to go back there and check it.

532
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: They did. So there's there's some things that maybe not

533
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: exactly right just because the way it was handled, at

534
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: least initially, that initial burst of people on the scene.

535
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: Well also, you know she's saying, I've been attacked, have

536
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: been attacked. Your initial reaction is going to be, well,

537
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: let's make sure that dude's not here anymore. Not Oh,

538
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: it's a crime scene. Better preserve it. I mean, that's

539
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: what cops do already. I mean they do that today.

540
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: Is we will secure the scene and then we will

541
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: lock it down so that we can take a look

542
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: at everything. But yeah, you've got to make sure that

543
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: the guy's not still there. Well, and you gotta remember

544
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: too that there were three children in the house, and yeah,

545
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: obviously that was a high priority. It was well, you

546
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: know what the thing is that it was a high

547
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: priority to them, and as it turns out, still a

548
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: high priority to Lord Luken because like I said, he

549
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: was nowhere to be found. Um, and he does a

550
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: little bit give his side of the story. He called Uh.

551
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: He called his mother that night somewhere between ten thirty

552
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: and eleven o'clock and said he was driving by the

553
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: house and saw Veronica fighting with the man in the

554
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: basement kitchen and went in to help. And that's, uh,

555
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: it's a little hard to believe. I mean, the window

556
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: you can see into the basement. Did check that out?

557
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 1: They did, and you have. They said you had to

558
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: be crouching down to see it or kneeling down, which

559
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: makes me wonder if sitting in a car is too

560
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: high of an angle. And also, don't forget it was

561
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: there were no lights on because the light bulb. We

562
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: haven't talked about this, but the lightbulb in the basement

563
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: kitchen had been taken out of the socket, so there's

564
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: absolutely no way he could have seen it. But this

565
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: is one of the things about his story is like

566
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: he couldn't have planned this very long because his story

567
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: is so weak. Yes, I agree, he said that he

568
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: went in, the attacker ran away. He then took her

569
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: upstairs to help clean her up, and that's when she

570
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: quote unquote came to and snapped out of it and

571
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: ran out of the house, screaming that it was him,

572
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: and he had done it, and he seems to believe,

573
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: or at least he seems to convey I should say

574
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: that he was worried that she was gonna say it

575
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: was him, and you know, this was gonna damage his

576
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: ability to see his children and so getting arrested years

577
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: which I'm sorry, but if her children are in the

578
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: house and your wife has just been attacked and you

579
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: saw it happen, why are you leaving the house? Yeah,

580
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,479
Speaker 1: there's that. Huh, it doesn't make sense. I mean, he

581
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: did ask his mother to go by and pick up

582
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: the children because he knew that his wife was going

583
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: to get carted off to the hospital to get checked out,

584
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: so he at least did that right, But it's just

585
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: he doesn't his story doesn't quite add up based on

586
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: what we know from that phone call to his mother,

587
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: and well, the other thing about his story is this,

588
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: he said he was was driving by, saw saw her

589
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: being attacked in the basement, rushed into the house, ran

590
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: down the stairs, slipped in some blood, and his his

591
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 1: loss of balance enabled the tailor, the killer to get away.

592
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: And then she apparently accused him of hiring a hitman

593
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: to murder her. That is one of the virgins. Yep, yeah,

594
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: but it doesn't really doesn't really fit with the physical evidence.

595
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: Though it doesn't it really doesn't. Um of course you

596
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: know that they don't necessarily, I mean, cops do this.

597
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: They got to take what the what the victim says

598
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: with a grain of salt. They don't believe her right

599
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: away entirely, so they get some other suspects. They then

600
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: rule out those suspects. But lo and behole, Lord Lucan

601
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: still know where to be found. He did do a

602
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: few other things to try to add to his side

603
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: of the story. He wrote a letter to his brother

604
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: in law basically reiterating what he had said to his mother.

605
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 1: One page was the story and the other page was

606
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: financial things that I needed to take care of off

607
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff. And by the way, that his

608
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: brother in law was not was not Lady Lucan's brother. Yes,

609
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: that is correct. Yeah, but he had married her sister. Wait,

610
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: let me let me make sure. So it was Lady

611
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 1: Lucan's sister's husband. Yeah, okay, okay. I was like this

612
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: basically thinking that Spaceball's moment. Okay, when I when I

613
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 1: first read about these, I thought, when he's they referred

614
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: to his brother in law. I thought it was Lady

615
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: Lucan's brother. I thought, that's really weird to be writing

616
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 1: a letter and expecting sympathy from her brother. Yeah, yeah,

617
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 1: that's true. That's not true. Yeah, it's not true. Lord

618
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: Lucan did call his mother one more time. He called

619
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: her later that night, um, sometime after midnight. Now she

620
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: had gone to pick up the children, so of course

621
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 1: the cops sent a man home with her. They're not stupid.

622
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,240
Speaker 1: When he made that call to his mother, the police

623
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 1: officer was there. Officer asked to speak to him. He

624
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: didn't decline to speak to the officer said he had

625
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,760
Speaker 1: to think about it, but that he'd be in contact

626
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,280
Speaker 1: with the police in the morning. That, of course didn't happen,

627
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 1: As we all know, he didn't ever actually speak to

628
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: the police. At the time. He was driving a borrowed

629
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:47,959
Speaker 1: Forward Corsair. He drove from London to East Sussex, where

630
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 1: he went to a friend's house. Those friends were the

631
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: Maxwell Scott's. Susan Maxwell Scott answered the door. Her husband

632
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: evidently wasn't home, and apparently her husband was one of

633
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 1: his lot gamblers. Correct, yes he was, but her husband

634
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 1: wasn't there and maybe what have you got a better

635
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: idea of this. I never got a clear understanding of

636
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: if he hung out for a while or if he

637
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 1: just said oh okay and then turned around and left.

638
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: I could never get a clear beat on it. I'm

639
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,439
Speaker 1: not totally sure. I thought it was that he told

640
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: him he told her the story, and I thought he

641
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: made a phone call and I thought maybe that was

642
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: I thought he maybe he might might have even written

643
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: those letters to his brother in law. Then well, but

644
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: the letters were at his house, his house, if I

645
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: remember correctly, the letters were at his home. I think

646
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: he had told her that he had done it, that

647
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 1: he had written the letters to his brother in law.

648
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: But again, this is one of those things like because

649
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: of the way that it's told and it's been regurgitated,

650
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: him a little bit unsure. All I know is that

651
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,800
Speaker 1: they found the letters and they were in London, So

652
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: take from that, which will Yeah, I had heard that

653
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: he wrote the letters, mailed him and then called his

654
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: brother in law to hold him. He bailed these letters

655
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:02,919
Speaker 1: to him and he wasn't in London, so that caused

656
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: a brother in law to go to London to get

657
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 1: the letters, and that would make more sense. That would

658
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: totally make more sense, and the versions that I kept

659
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 1: coming across that just confused to crap out of me. Yeah,

660
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: so he might have made that phone call from there,

661
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: that was under the impression that he made a phone

662
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: call from there and told her. I don't know if

663
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: he told her much of anything. I mean, obviously he

664
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: told her there was a crisis, and YadA, YadA. I mean,

665
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 1: right his mother, Yeah, no, no, no, Susan Maxwell Scott, yes, yeah, yeah,

666
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 1: And well, and he would have had blood on his

667
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: clothes yea, if he slipped and fell in the blood.

668
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 1: If he's telling the truth and he's trying to clean

669
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: up his wife, he would have blood on his clothes. No, not,

670
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 1: if he went home and wrote letters, he would have

671
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 1: changed his clothes, you would think by the way there

672
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: were there was blood on the envelopes, so, but not

673
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: on the stationary itself. Correct, And it was like blood smears,

674
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: like a little bits of blood. So Okay. The reason

675
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 1: that that's troubling to me is that blood dry is

676
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: pretty quick on your skin, right, So for it to

677
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: be blood smears, it would mean that he would have

678
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 1: had to have been actively bleeding probably or maybe he

679
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 1: had gotten his hands wet and was trying to wash

680
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: him off and grabbed it and that would have you know,

681
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: that would have transferred blood. I guess, yeah, it would

682
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: have been like really watered down. I mean, like blood

683
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: doesn't it hangs around, you know, on you dry for

684
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 1: a while, but like reconstituting blood on your hand like

685
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: that doesn't really know, it doesn't work out well, it

686
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 1: doesn't work super great. I mean, I mean, we're kind

687
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 1: of going down there, rabbit. But I mean, you know,

688
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: I think that that that does present a problem for me,

689
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 1: especially since it wasn't on the stationary. It was on

690
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: the envelope, being honest, being honest, being on the envelope

691
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: only in the case to me that he wrote the

692
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 1: letters before it does. Yeah, all right, let's let's move

693
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: forward a little bit more in time. We're gonna move

694
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: from that night, which is Thursday, to Sunday, which is

695
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: the tent that four Corsair that he was driving was

696
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: found sixteen miles away from the Maxwell Scott's home. Uh

697
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: in the car they found blood. It was both it

698
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: was I never could tell because it was I saw

699
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 1: it listed or written as believed to be Sandra and

700
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: Veronica's blood. I don't know if the technology was good

701
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 1: enough for the time to be able to exact match it.

702
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 1: I'm guessing that they couldn't. They could match by type,

703
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: at least I know that, but they didn't do so

704
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 1: that would explain why it was written that way. So

705
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: they found the blood, They found another lead pipe in

706
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: the boot, which was also, by the way, partially wrapped

707
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: in tape. Surgical tape. Yep, it was. There was a

708
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: bottle of vodka. I don't know how much was in it. Uh.

709
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: And the witnesses in the area has said they had

710
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: seen the car park there early on Friday morning, which

711
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 1: means it would have sat for several days. But that

712
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 1: also I guess that it's a problem for me too,

713
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 1: because the timing of it seems really weird and quick,

714
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 1: because when did he attack? When did the attack happen?

715
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: Nine o'clock at night on Thursday, Okay, so it would

716
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: have presumably been what an hour, I don't know how

717
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 1: long it was attacks probably would have been under fifteen minutes.

718
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: There was a whole drama upstairs, you know, and I

719
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: still max okay, And then he lived how far away

720
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: from the house, oh, from his house to live. It

721
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: was around the corner of the corner, so we had

722
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: to go home. That wasn't actually around the corner, it

723
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,919
Speaker 1: was it was not far about a mile south. We're

724
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 1: saying like he's leaving town at like ten thirty. It's

725
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 1: about an hour and a half drive to the Maxwell,

726
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: Scots Okay, I guess. So he could have parked the

727
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 1: car any time in the wee hours of Friday morning

728
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: and that would totally lead line up with what the

729
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: witnesses said. That's a that's helpful. And actually the car

730
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 1: was found in new Haven about a mile from the

731
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: harbor and new Haven is of course on the English Channel. Yes, uh,

732
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 1: they were about six am. There were a couple of fishermen.

733
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: I saw this in a documentary and this is this

734
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 1: is uh the words of an author who research and

735
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: wrote a book about this whole. Yeah, and a couple

736
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 1: of fishermen were loading up their boat preparing to for

737
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,439
Speaker 1: the day's work and they saw they testified to having

738
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: seen Lord Lucan at the harbor and new Haven at

739
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 1: about six am. There you go. What he did from there,

740
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: We're not sure. The lead investigator, one of the guys

741
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: who wrote the books Roy Ransom. Yeah, great name. It is.

742
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 1: He Uh, he's convinced that Lord Lucan uh committed the

743
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 1: murders of Sandra and the attack on his wife. And

744
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 1: then from there he thinks that Lucan committed suicide. Yeah,

745
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 1: somehow he doesn't. He didn't speculate exactly how whereas some

746
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: others have. But he for a long time. He since

747
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 1: changed his theory, but for a long long time he

748
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,320
Speaker 1: was sure that he had done himself in. There was,

749
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 1: of course, a inquest later on, and he not shockingly

750
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: was found guilty of the murder of Sandra. And because

751
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 1: well there was really no defense prosecution. That's that's That's

752
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: the thing about it is he really incriminated himself because

753
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,800
Speaker 1: I disappearing. Well not just that, but he told people,

754
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 1: he said I and he basically placed himself at the

755
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 1: scene of the crime by telling people, oh, I was there,

756
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 1: because he told people I was going by and I

757
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,720
Speaker 1: rushed into Savor, you know, and and so he placed

758
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: himself there and I and we're going to talk about

759
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,800
Speaker 1: maybe one of the reasons why in the theory section.

760
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 1: There is just one other little bit here about about

761
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: Lord Lucan, because he disappeared he wasn't for a long

762
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: time not declared dead. Yeah, they have a standard set

763
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: of time, right, I don't. I think the family was,

764
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 1: especially Lady Lucan, they delayed having him declared legally dead

765
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: because comparently they would have had to pay death taxes

766
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 1: and they really couldn't afford at the time, and so

767
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: they actually waited a long long time and then everything

768
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 1: went into probate and now they have it. There's some

769
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: crazy things though. There's there's towns in and parts of

770
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 1: England and Ireland that officially the nobility his family owned.

771
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:36,760
Speaker 1: So people were still having to pay to the Lucan

772
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 1: family rent, yeah, because they were nine hundred nine nine

773
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: year leases. Yeah, now they I had heard that the

774
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: family owns about twelve hundred properties in Ireland and but

775
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: the other thing I heard is they're having a lot

776
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 1: of trouble collecting rents in those properties they are, and

777
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: people are also just buying them out. Some people are saying,

778
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 1: you know what, to to heck with it, I'm just

779
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: gonna buy it out. So they they are. They finally

780
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: probably have caught up on what they owed in the past.

781
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 1: Took a long time, but that that really is the

782
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: the end of the story. Um, and it leaves us

783
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 1: with the two questions of a did he really kill

784
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:21,320
Speaker 1: Sandra and then attack his wife? And then after that,

785
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 1: what happened to it? Where'd you goilities there? Yep, So

786
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 1: we we have a couple of who done it theories

787
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 1: and who done it? Theory Number one is obvious that

788
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:40,359
Speaker 1: he's guilty that he did it. Well, if we look

789
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: at it from the perspective of what is his motive, Well,

790
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: he's he's been jilted by the courts, he's lost custody

791
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 1: of his children. He probably feels like everybody is screwed

792
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: him out of all these things that he's entitled to, which,

793
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: when you think about it, through the course of his

794
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: life he got what he thought he was in title too,

795
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,359
Speaker 1: so when suddenly somebody tells him no, it doesn't sit well. Yeah,

796
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: when I talked about his behavior before everything happened, I said,

797
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 1: it didn't really seem like he spiraled downhill. He just

798
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: seemed to be okay, And maybe that was some form

799
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: of emotional shutdown. People do that. You can't tell that

800
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,720
Speaker 1: they're a boiling cauldron of emotions because they're just acting

801
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: normal until eventually it does overflow. Yeah, he had a

802
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 1: lot to be stressed about. And besides being massively in

803
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 1: debt and not being able to pay his bills and

804
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 1: losing his kids and everything. And then there was that

805
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: one little thing. Yes, yes, there was that one little

806
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,439
Speaker 1: thing which came out last year. That's when that little

807
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,919
Speaker 1: thing that Joe keeps hinting at happened. There's a guy

808
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 1: by the name of George Weiss, and he was evidently

809
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 1: a member of the Claremount Club and he played He

810
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: played with John Bingham there, Yeah, because everybody did. And

811
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: he was quoted in an article in the Mirror last

812
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:02,320
Speaker 1: year as saying he knew why Lord Lucan had snapped.

813
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 1: And the reason was, according to him, is that Lord

814
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: Lucan had sent a kitten to his children as a gift,

815
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 1: and the kitten was set back through his mail letterbox,

816
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: which is the slot in the door, you know, you

817
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:23,240
Speaker 1: get your mail through with its throat cut. Oh my god,

818
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 1: that's hours after he had had it sent. Yeah. Seriously,

819
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,919
Speaker 1: even if you were angry at this guy, you don't

820
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: kill the kitten. I actually, you know, if this is true,

821
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,720
Speaker 1: If this is true, then I say Lady Lucan deserved

822
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 1: to get beaten. Well that's my question though, is it okay?

823
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 1: So who who did the kitten in? Was it Lady Lucan,

824
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 1: was it Sandra, was it one of the maybe one

825
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 1: of the children, or was it some other man that

826
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 1: we don't know about. There's a whole host of people.

827
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,479
Speaker 1: We have another murder mystery of who who did the kitten? Really,

828
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 1: because that could really impact what happened later on. Yeah,

829
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 1: of course that's you know. I mean, I don't know

830
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: if Wise is lying or perhaps Lord Lucan lied to him.

831
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,879
Speaker 1: I mean, it's possible that none of this happened. And yeah,

832
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 1: it's yeah, keep in mind and sat on this since

833
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 1: nine and just suddenly comes out with it's like, oh

834
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: I remember that thing. Yeah, I remember the family of

835
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 1: the Lucan family. They had a cat who lived in

836
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: their house on Laura Belgrade Street. And uh, generally, in

837
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: my experience, the kind of people who own cats usually

838
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 1: are not the kind of people who slit kitten's throats. Yes, usually, Yeah,

839
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: that's what dog people do. Yeah, I'm a dog person

840
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: and I would not know. But it does make me

841
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: one question this bit about the kitten, because as we

842
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: talked about before and we'll probably talk about again. The

843
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 1: British media trots this story out every year. Yeah, I don't. Yeah,

844
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: and again you're right, and this time why did this

845
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: guy sit in the dead kittens story for so and

846
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 1: every time it's somebody with a new revelation. Take that

847
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: with a grain of salt. Well, and in strong favor

848
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 1: of the he did it is? The question would be

849
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: what motive did he have to kill the nanny? But

850
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 1: it's totally possible. They look I mean they didn't look

851
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: really the same. They were the same height, right, nanny

852
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 1: I think was just a little bit more thick set

853
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:36,319
Speaker 1: than dark in the dark and you know, if it's

854
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,800
Speaker 1: pitch black downstairs and you think you've got you know,

855
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 1: your wife who you are hating right now, and beat

856
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 1: her up and then realize, oh oops, that was a nanny.

857
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: What do we do in the mail sack? And we'll wait? Yeah,

858
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: I mean that your your plan has gone to gone

859
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,320
Speaker 1: pear shape? Right. That The other part is the what

860
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 1: what motivated him to kill the nanny? And I believe

861
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 1: it was a complete total accident. I think she was

862
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 1: the wrong place, wrong time. Well, let's not forget though

863
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: he was paying her salary man. That might have been

864
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: his way of cutting expenses. Yeah, I think it was.

865
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 1: And again this is this is another one of those

866
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: things that's totally out of out of one of the

867
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 1: detective novels. Who is I know, it really is. I

868
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 1: can't wait for the twist of like, oh, yeah, by

869
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 1: the way, this is actually just a novel. Now, by

870
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: the way, yeah, that the twist is going to be

871
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 1: in the end that actually she murdered him and then

872
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 1: self bludgeoned. She murdered him, murdered the nanny, and then

873
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: self bludgeon and then ran down the street and ran

874
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: into the pub. And you know, yeah, I know I

875
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 1: feel connected to all of our listeners because they were

876
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 1: doing the same thing as I'm sure as I was

877
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 1: just doing, which is just shaking my head. No, you

878
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 1: gotta love those those kinds of devious twists. So our

879
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 1: next theory of who done it, it wasn't him. That's

880
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,839
Speaker 1: the next theory. There are people who say this, There

881
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: is a lot of people who say that. I mean,

882
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 1: there's he left those letters and talked to his mother

883
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 1: and attested his innocence. Um, and some of his friends

884
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 1: have stood by him. I mean, initially a lot of

885
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: people said, yeah, he's probably innocent. Some of those guys

886
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 1: changed their tune, but some of them have said he

887
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: was innocent for twenty five plus years, so they're really

888
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 1: standing there. What What is my hard part about his

889
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 1: not having done it is there was no signs of

890
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:41,359
Speaker 1: forced entry into the house. So you're saying that's uh

891
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 1: that essentially it was an entirely random thing. Somebody broke

892
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: into the house maybe too well, no, no, I'm saying

893
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: it's hard to believe that he didn't do it because

894
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: there's no signs of forced entry. The basement doors were locked.

895
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: I don't think that a fleeing attacker would stop and

896
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 1: locked the doors behind themselves. And the back garden was walled. Um,

897
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: there was no signs of anybody, you know, climbing the

898
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 1: vegetation and breaking the branches to get out. Um. Like

899
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 1: we talked about the fact that, you know, when the

900
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 1: police recreated the scene, it's very hard to see in

901
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: the window from the street unless you're bending down, which

902
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: I still think is kind of hinky. His theory does

903
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 1: not hold water, or excuse me, his alibi does not

904
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 1: hold water. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't. And I think we

905
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit in terms of the

906
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,400
Speaker 1: blood that was around. My other problem with him not

907
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 1: being involved or guilty of doing it is that Veronica's

908
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: blood was everywhere else but the basement kitchen well precisely,

909
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 1: and so down the stairs. Yes, she didn't so the

910
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,439
Speaker 1: attack on her it took place. But we've talked about

911
00:51:54,480 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 1: the snow lights, no blood. This doesn't work. So let's

912
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 1: move on to the next two done it, which is

913
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 1: a hit man. And there is theories out here that

914
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 1: a hit man did it, and it says that, you know,

915
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:15,760
Speaker 1: he didn't. He wasn't the one that committed the entire act.

916
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 1: He just hired someone. He hired somebody and probably, like

917
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 1: we said before, Sandra was in the wrong place at

918
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: the wrong time, and then everything went sideways. I'm guessing

919
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 1: that he must have been at the house if this

920
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: is true. He probably was sitting outside watching it, you know,

921
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 1: kind of reveling in the whole thing and maybe got

922
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: cold feet, or maybe he was in there with the

923
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 1: hit man to see it all happen and that's when

924
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 1: it kind of went. All that I heard, too, is

925
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: that he had hired a hit man and then at

926
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: the last minute he realized what an incredibly horrible thing

927
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 1: he was doing, and he rushed down there to try

928
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: to try to head it off. Well, if he wrote

929
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 1: those a lot of years before, right, it's possible he

930
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 1: hired a hit man to to stage the exact situation

931
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 1: that he said happened. If he was if he may

932
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: be realized, oh I want Veronica back, or oh I

933
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 1: want to be a hero, or you know, oh I

934
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 1: just want to scare her. Whatever, whatever his motivation was,

935
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 1: he had hired this hit man. It did go a

936
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 1: little south, right. He expected it to be Veronica that

937
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,280
Speaker 1: he was that was attacked because the nanny was supposed

938
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: to be off and he went in to save her

939
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 1: and then realized this person is dead. This person, this

940
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: did not go to plan at all, and then ran away.

941
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, the only problem with that

942
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:41,720
Speaker 1: is that he he went ahead and mailed the letter's

943
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: bloody and all when it was really kind of time

944
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,839
Speaker 1: for him to come up with a new story at

945
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 1: this point in time. And so really why would he

946
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: go ahead? And I mean maybe he wasn't thinking straight,

947
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 1: but yeah, because I mean, obviously the right thing to

948
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:57,800
Speaker 1: do at this point is to not mail those letters

949
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 1: starting start cooking up a new alibi, or like, don't

950
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 1: leave the house, hang out, knowing she's going to go

951
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 1: get the cops. Hang out there, and you know, played

952
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,399
Speaker 1: the innocent card and say I was like, I wasn't here,

953
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 1: you guys, I'm sorry. How can I help in this?

954
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 1: You know, because that at the very least, it's it's

955
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 1: way less suspicious if you're still sitting there when the

956
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 1: cops come back and you're like, oh my gosh, thank

957
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 1: thank god, here help us versus disappearance. Oh I better

958
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:31,839
Speaker 1: get out of here, because I was just helping her.

959
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:33,839
Speaker 1: I think, I think at this point, so I think

960
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 1: he he came to realize the hopelessness of the situation.

961
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 1: I also think that this though there isn't a lot

962
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: of support for this theory, I think there are some

963
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 1: signs that it might be the right one. And that's

964
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 1: the car. Yeah, because think about it this way. He

965
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 1: sends the guy in, the guy MUCKs the whole thing

966
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 1: up and kills the nanny. He goes in, he discovers it,

967
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 1: He sends the guy outside, and the guy goes and

968
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,759
Speaker 1: sits in the car and waits. You know, okay, boss,

969
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 1: I'll be waiting for you, because there's blood in the car,

970
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 1: and the hitman is gonna have blood all over him

971
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 1: from beating Veronica and then from beating the nanny. Well,

972
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 1: I think both, you know, I mean, I think it's

973
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,319
Speaker 1: gonna be both of them. He's gonna blood all over him,

974
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 1: and that would explain why there was blood and hair

975
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 1: in the car, and then of course there was you know,

976
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 1: some of the stuff. So I really I think that

977
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:34,280
Speaker 1: he was trying to break it up and, as Devin

978
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 1: put it, be the hero of the situation. And then

979
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: he screwed it up. He takes off, he drops the

980
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:43,360
Speaker 1: guy off wherever he's going to drop him off for

981
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 1: his final bit of of time with him, and maybe

982
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 1: he pays him, maybe he doesn't. I don't know, and

983
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:52,880
Speaker 1: the wrong person. I don't. I don't think he deserves.

984
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 1: I don't think you deserve to get paid. But on

985
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 1: the other hand, you know, do you really look at

986
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 1: the him and say, hey, screw you, I'm not paying. Yeah,

987
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 1: you probably don't, probably don't checks in the mail, Yeah yeah, yeah,

988
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 1: But that's personally, I kind of think that's probably the

989
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 1: most likely scene because I don't think he had the

990
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:12,840
Speaker 1: stones to do well. The thing about it that The

991
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 1: reason I don't like the hitman theory is is that

992
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 1: Lord Luca and whatever his faults, did, love his children did.

993
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: And the problem. The problem was sending a hitman by

994
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 1: that to kill your wife. It's one of your kids

995
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 1: stumbles upon the scene. Well, and that's why I don't get.

996
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 1: I don't think that it was the hitman was supposed

997
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:33,359
Speaker 1: to kill anybody. I think he's supposed to rough her up,

998
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 1: and then he would run in as the hero and

999
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,759
Speaker 1: chase the bad guy away, and she would realize how

1000
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 1: much she loved and needed him and welcome him back.

1001
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 1: Generally using a lead pipe to rus somebody that's not

1002
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: a good strategy. I mean, somebody hitting somebody on the

1003
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 1: ribs and breaking a few ribs, but you don't hit

1004
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 1: him on the head. Yeah. Although again the big question

1005
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:58,319
Speaker 1: then is like she did try to reconcile with him.

1006
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 1: Maybe it was too make the house seemed like a

1007
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:06,400
Speaker 1: dangerous place for the kids, so he would get custody. Yeah. Maybe,

1008
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 1: I mean there's a thousand ways that he made that

1009
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 1: somebody may have thought that should play out in their favor,

1010
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:15,360
Speaker 1: but but yeah, I don't think the hitman was trying

1011
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 1: to just rougher up because the lead pipe that he

1012
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:21,959
Speaker 1: is it's a serious tool. Well it's not just serious tool.

1013
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 1: It was bent. The lead pipe was bent, but some

1014
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 1: seriously hard whacking. Yeah that was okay. Let's smack and whack.

1015
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 1: Let's let's move forward to where did he go? Because

1016
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:37,439
Speaker 1: we're done with who done it? Now, let's find out

1017
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:40,760
Speaker 1: what happened to him? Yeah, what did happen to Yeah? Well,

1018
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 1: the most popular theory is that he committed suicide. Um,

1019
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 1: it's uh, let's see his his his friend John aspen All,

1020
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 1: who's a really wealthy guy on his own by the way,

1021
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: by the way, owns a couple of zoos. He does,

1022
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 1: but I mean, he had nothing to get from standing

1023
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 1: by Lucky Luke in all these years. But he said

1024
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 1: he probably didn't do it, but he probably did take

1025
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 1: the gentleman's out, probably took a boat out, got out

1026
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: into the channel, pulled the plug in the middle of

1027
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 1: the boat, and sank with it. Did they actually come

1028
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 1: with plugs? Yeah, some boats drain plug It's a real thing.

1029
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 1: It's not just in looney Dunes. Another theory that he

1030
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 1: put out there is that then this would be a

1031
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 1: little easier to do. Um, there's a ferry that leaves

1032
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 1: New Haven a couple of times a day and goes

1033
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 1: to France, and so you could have either boarded the

1034
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 1: ferry or more likely maybe he snuck on board and

1035
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 1: stowed away, which was plain why nobody on the ferry

1036
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 1: remember seeing it. But he could just basically out in

1037
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 1: the middle of the channel jumped overboard. Yeah, I mean,

1038
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 1: that's the that's the primary way that everybody thinks that

1039
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 1: if he did commit suicide, he did it drowning himself

1040
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 1: in the English Channel. Yeah, and apparently got I think

1041
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: he got these from Susan Maxwell Scott. Yes, I think he.

1042
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 1: I believe he got us set of really strong sleeping

1043
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 1: pills from Susan Maxwell Scott. I do remember something about that.

1044
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: I remember the exact details at this moment, but yeah,

1045
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 1: that that that the thing is is that he took

1046
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:21,480
Speaker 1: himself a huge dose of sleeping pills and then when

1047
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 1: those were starting to kick, and flung himself overboard. And

1048
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 1: if you if you went over the side of the ferry,

1049
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 1: then I'm I'm lucky for him. He probably got sucked

1050
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 1: into the screws. Yeah. Bah, let's uh, let's move forward

1051
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 1: to our next theory of where did he go, which

1052
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 1: is he left the country. Yeah, could have actually had

1053
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 1: a fake passport. He hopped on the ferry in New Haven.

1054
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 1: Think about it, Lord Lucan. He comes from money, He's

1055
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:54,560
Speaker 1: got wealthy friends. He can do whatever he wanted when

1056
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 1: he was basically being a playboy almost, I mean, he

1057
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,240
Speaker 1: just he did what he wanted he could. And so

1058
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 1: it's quite possible that he got ahold of some of

1059
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 1: his friends and they said, whoa mate, that's screwed up.

1060
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 1: We'll get you out of town. And so they got

1061
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 1: him out of town. And you can pick your favorite

1062
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 1: country right now, and chances are good he was cited

1063
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:26,640
Speaker 1: in that country. I swear he's been sited more than Elvis, Yes,

1064
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:31,560
Speaker 1: thousands of sightings there. There are two people who are

1065
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 1: the favorites for if we're going to say that he

1066
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 1: got spirited out of the country. The two people that

1067
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:41,920
Speaker 1: our favorites are John aspen all As who said and

1068
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 1: James Goldsmith, Sir James Goldsmith, Sir James Goldsmith, who was

1069
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 1: also a very rich man. Actually, the lady on Lady

1070
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 1: Lucan's website, she has something to say about that, believe

1071
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 1: it or not. She says. She actually says in her

1072
01:00:57,120 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 1: website that those guys didn't like him all that much

1073
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 1: at all. Really, she said, yeah, she said, she quotes

1074
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 1: somebody else. There is a there's a guy who and

1075
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 1: I've actually read this guy's stuff before. He writes a

1076
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 1: lot about politics, which he used to, but he's also

1077
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 1: a little bit about gambling. And apparently he knew the

1078
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 1: guy that the whole Claremont Club gang. So his name

1079
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:20,240
Speaker 1: is Talkie and last name I pronounceable. He actually wrote

1080
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 1: in the Sunday Times quote this is regarding Sir James Goldsmith,

1081
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 1: He wrote, Goldsmith was not particularly fond of Lucan unquote.

1082
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:33,360
Speaker 1: He wrote that. She also says on her website John

1083
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:36,840
Speaker 1: Aspinall was not one of the late Lord Lucan's best friends.

1084
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 1: Both James Goldsmith and John Aspinall have supported my version

1085
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 1: of events, namely that my late husband murdered Mrs Rivet

1086
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 1: by mistake instead of me, and shortly there afterwards committed suicide.

1087
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 1: They did not want their integrity damaged by a murderer.

1088
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:54,440
Speaker 1: That that is really funny because she's the only one

1089
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 1: who really puts that out there, and I love that

1090
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 1: that says that she says my version of events, but

1091
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I wasn't there at the time.

1092
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 1: I don't know how much they did or did not

1093
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 1: like him. But those two guys are the prime candidates.

1094
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 1: They are that that's what everybody else says. But according

1095
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: to her, they didn't much care for him. And according

1096
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:22,680
Speaker 1: to Talkie unpronounceable, yeah, yeah, buddies either. Well, according to

1097
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:26,720
Speaker 1: the theory, what those two did is they helped spirit

1098
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,640
Speaker 1: him out of the UK and get him to Kenya,

1099
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 1: and then years later they organized trips for his children

1100
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:38,440
Speaker 1: to Kenya so that he could see them unbeknownst to them.

1101
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 1: And another one of these yeah, well yeah, there's a

1102
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:44,560
Speaker 1: whole bunch of these, but this this one where it

1103
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 1: says that they went to that he went to Kenya,

1104
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:51,480
Speaker 1: That is from Aspinall's secretary. She said that she did

1105
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: all these transfers and all this funny stuff and years

1106
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 1: later figured out and then yeah, figured out who was

1107
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 1: for Or there's another version that says that he was

1108
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 1: flown he went to a small airfield in Kent and

1109
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:12,680
Speaker 1: then got on a plane heading to France. The person

1110
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 1: who helped him in this version is Susan Maxwell. Scott.

1111
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 1: She's the one who organized the whole thing. Now, I

1112
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:24,160
Speaker 1: will say that the source for this bulatantly admits that

1113
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 1: he was told the story while in a pub, which

1114
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 1: really makes me question how much truth there is to it.

1115
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 1: But the guy who's telling the story says that then

1116
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 1: he was his father who drove them to the airport,

1117
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 1: and then he himself went and picked up the Corsair

1118
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:46,920
Speaker 1: and then drove it away and and dumped it. I mean,

1119
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:51,280
Speaker 1: there's so many sightings I want to say about the

1120
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 1: whole thing about transporting the kids to Africa where you know,

1121
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 1: and and of course they didn't meet with him. According

1122
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 1: to that story, he's watching them. He watched them from

1123
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 1: a distance. I saw it in view that his son

1124
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 1: George did the eighth Thorold, and and actually he was

1125
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 1: he was. He was quite intelligent and articulate. And I

1126
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:10,280
Speaker 1: love the way he put this. He said, he said,

1127
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 1: I've never ever been to Gabon, and I hope I'm

1128
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:17,400
Speaker 1: announcing that correctly. Maybe it's Gable owner, but anyway, he says,

1129
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 1: I had never ever been to Gabon, and I guess

1130
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:23,480
Speaker 1: I was supposedly transported down there with my with my

1131
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:28,200
Speaker 1: sister then they're from my father could watch us or

1132
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 1: view us from some creepy distance. Yes, but yeah, he

1133
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:35,920
Speaker 1: was very dismissive of that entire story. So the whole

1134
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 1: family has been dismissive of most of these theories that

1135
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 1: are out there, short of he would and did himself

1136
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:46,280
Speaker 1: in the channel. Yeah, but here's some of my favorite sightings. Yeah,

1137
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 1: I want to hear them all right. He was cited

1138
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:52,800
Speaker 1: in Martin, New Zealand. There was an Englishman who was

1139
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:58,040
Speaker 1: investigated as possibly being Lord Lucan, even though it turned

1140
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 1: out that he was just some English guy living in

1141
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 1: his land rover with his pet possum. The picture of

1142
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:08,080
Speaker 1: him with this possum a little different in New Zealand.

1143
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:11,320
Speaker 1: They do. They're they're different color and not nearly as ugly. Yeah,

1144
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 1: never mind, Now this is the best part. Everybody said

1145
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:15,600
Speaker 1: it was Lord Lucan because it was a brit even

1146
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 1: though this guy was ten years younger and half a

1147
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 1: foot shorter. But he was in a land rover. Well,

1148
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:24,840
Speaker 1: there you go, there go, yeah, let's see what. Oh,

1149
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:28,000
Speaker 1: this is awesome. He lived in go oh where he

1150
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 1: was living the hippie lifestyle as Barry Helping until his

1151
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:39,919
Speaker 1: death in and he had the awesomest nickname ever, jungly Berry. Yeah. Yeah,

1152
01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 1: that was pretty conclusively disproven. Yeah, he worked as a

1153
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 1: waiter in a San Francisco restaurant. And then, because the

1154
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 1: IRA have to get involved in everything, the last one

1155
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 1: says that he was held hostage by the IRA, and

1156
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:59,480
Speaker 1: presumably they were responsible for the tack on his family,

1157
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 1: I guess. And then before they killed him, or before

1158
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:06,080
Speaker 1: he killed himself, he asked to be fed to the

1159
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:10,680
Speaker 1: tigers at the zoo in Kent, of course. Yeah, which,

1160
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 1: by the way, it was. Yeah, I've heard that one too.

1161
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:18,160
Speaker 1: The another theory that I've heard is that the the

1162
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 1: Underworld contacts, the shady Underworld contacts that hooked him up

1163
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:25,280
Speaker 1: with the hitman realized that he was kind of a

1164
01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 1: liability after the whole thing went out and knocked him

1165
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:30,280
Speaker 1: and knocked him off. Yeah, so that's another theory. Sure,

1166
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:32,760
Speaker 1: it's entirely possible at this point with all the other

1167
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 1: craziness we've had going on. Yeah, but I'm inclined to

1168
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:39,440
Speaker 1: believe he killed himself with a lead pipe on the

1169
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:45,640
Speaker 1: ferry in the English channel Candlestick. Yeah, I I think

1170
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 1: that most likely he did himself in and I, like

1171
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 1: I said, I personally think that the he sent somebody

1172
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:54,040
Speaker 1: into the house and then the whole and then realized

1173
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:57,120
Speaker 1: what a dumb idea it was probably what happened, But

1174
01:06:57,240 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 1: that's my opinion. I'm in client to believe that he

1175
01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 1: didn't hire a hit man. He just wanted to himself

1176
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:05,560
Speaker 1: to do it. But and you know, kind of bungled

1177
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:08,600
Speaker 1: the whole thing. Yeah, if he didn't himself, he really did.

1178
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:12,000
Speaker 1: He really didn't think his crying too too carefully. He

1179
01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:15,800
Speaker 1: should have really put a lot more thought into you. Yeah. Well,

1180
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:18,120
Speaker 1: one one last thing is that that in that that

1181
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:23,080
Speaker 1: that Mirror interview with George the eight thorough he talked

1182
01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:25,800
Speaker 1: about how sick the family is of hearing of all

1183
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 1: these sightings. We were so tired of this. Yeah, yeah,

1184
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:36,480
Speaker 1: he's not alive. He died. You know, please everybody accepted. Well,

1185
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 1: if you have any thoughts on this particular story or

1186
01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:42,960
Speaker 1: any other stories that you would like us to take

1187
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 1: a look at, you are more than welcome to send

1188
01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:48,480
Speaker 1: those to us. You can send that to our email address,

1189
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:52,360
Speaker 1: which is Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. We

1190
01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:55,240
Speaker 1: of course have our website where this and all previous

1191
01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:58,520
Speaker 1: episodes are and as well as some of our research.

1192
01:07:59,160 --> 01:08:03,560
Speaker 1: That website is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. We are

1193
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:06,240
Speaker 1: on iTunes and I know a lot of people find

1194
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:09,080
Speaker 1: us through there. If you do subscribe or you do

1195
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:11,720
Speaker 1: listen to the show, do take the time to leave

1196
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:14,040
Speaker 1: a comment and a rating. That always helps us move

1197
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:18,760
Speaker 1: through the rankings and more people to find us. You can, uh, well,

1198
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:21,639
Speaker 1: you can stream us from just about any site anymore,

1199
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:24,800
Speaker 1: so I'm not really gonna plug one. And we are

1200
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:28,000
Speaker 1: on social media. We are on Facebook. We have a

1201
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:31,840
Speaker 1: Facebook page and the Facebook group. Both of those are

1202
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 1: available to you, and we are also on Twitter. We

1203
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 1: are Thinking Sideways without that mettle g and of course,

1204
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:43,439
Speaker 1: last but not least, if you're enjoying what we do

1205
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:47,160
Speaker 1: with the podcast and you want to show your support,

1206
01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:50,880
Speaker 1: you're more than welcome to do that. We are on Patreon.

1207
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 1: It's patreon dot com slash Thinking Sideways. Completely voluntary, but

1208
01:08:56,320 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 1: that is something that you can do if you want

1209
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:00,600
Speaker 1: to help out the show. That is us, all of it.

1210
01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:05,679
Speaker 1: If I think all right, well, we're gonna go ahead

1211
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:08,960
Speaker 1: and wrap this one up, get ready, guys. The next

1212
01:09:09,040 --> 01:09:13,840
Speaker 1: episode comes out in the month of October, a big month.

1213
01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 1: It's a listener's suggestion our top stories. We're calling it

1214
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:22,880
Speaker 1: thinking sideways, most wanted, Yes, because these are most suggested

1215
01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:26,560
Speaker 1: or highest voted stories to cover. So we're going to

1216
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:29,560
Speaker 1: do that for the entire month of October. We're not

1217
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:31,280
Speaker 1: going to tell you what what what Next week is

1218
01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:36,240
Speaker 1: a surprise, all right, everybody, We'll talk to you next week.

1219
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:40,320
Speaker 1: So it was choppy in the kitchen with a lead pipe.

1220
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:44,240
Speaker 1: It's just so wrong all the time. I had to

1221
01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:46,360
Speaker 1: mention chupy, I have an accused chuopy of anything for

1222
01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:46,719
Speaker 1: a while