1 00:00:16,311 --> 00:00:16,711 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:23,031 --> 00:00:30,311 Speaker 2: It was an unprecedented circumstance. It was fraut with politics. 3 00:00:31,311 --> 00:00:34,591 Speaker 2: I mean, we were in the process of choosing the 4 00:00:34,671 --> 00:00:38,071 Speaker 2: leader of the free world, and she was not staffed 5 00:00:38,071 --> 00:00:38,311 Speaker 2: for that. 6 00:00:39,351 --> 00:00:41,631 Speaker 3: I had I mean, I was just there. I certified 7 00:00:41,631 --> 00:00:43,871 Speaker 3: the election. It was kind of a ministerial job. 8 00:00:44,911 --> 00:00:48,190 Speaker 1: Hey, Fiasco listeners, it's Leon Napok. Welcome back to this 9 00:00:48,311 --> 00:00:52,830 Speaker 1: run of special bonus episodes of Fiasco Bush Vigor. Today 10 00:00:52,871 --> 00:00:55,351 Speaker 1: we're going to focus on a Florida institution that played 11 00:00:55,351 --> 00:00:59,031 Speaker 1: an absolutely pivotal role during the recount, the Secretary of 12 00:00:59,071 --> 00:01:01,551 Speaker 1: State's Office, which, as you know, was in charge of 13 00:01:01,591 --> 00:01:04,831 Speaker 1: overseeing the recount and certifying the vote totals once all 14 00:01:04,871 --> 00:01:08,031 Speaker 1: the ballots were counted. Sitting at the controls of the 15 00:01:08,071 --> 00:01:10,471 Speaker 1: Secretary of State's Office was a woman who turned out 16 00:01:10,511 --> 00:01:13,031 Speaker 1: to be one of the most memorable figures of the recount, 17 00:01:13,071 --> 00:01:14,591 Speaker 1: Saga Catherine Harris. 18 00:01:15,031 --> 00:01:18,191 Speaker 4: And, in accordance with the laws of the State of Florida, 19 00:01:18,391 --> 00:01:22,631 Speaker 4: hi hereby declare Governor George W. Bush, the winner of 20 00:01:22,671 --> 00:01:26,631 Speaker 4: Florida's twenty five electoral votes for the President of the 21 00:01:26,751 --> 00:01:27,431 Speaker 4: United States. 22 00:01:28,351 --> 00:01:31,071 Speaker 1: Harris was a Republican with ties to the Bush campaign. 23 00:01:31,391 --> 00:01:33,831 Speaker 1: And because of the power she held over which ballots 24 00:01:33,871 --> 00:01:37,111 Speaker 1: got counted in the official tally, Harris became a symbol 25 00:01:37,151 --> 00:01:40,111 Speaker 1: to Democrats of everything that was unfair about the Florida 26 00:01:40,191 --> 00:01:45,591 Speaker 1: recount process. Speculations swirled that Harris was motivated by partisanship, 27 00:01:45,951 --> 00:01:48,031 Speaker 1: that she and others in her office were trying to 28 00:01:48,071 --> 00:01:51,631 Speaker 1: help Bush win. We'll hear directly from Harris in a 29 00:01:51,631 --> 00:01:54,151 Speaker 1: little bit, but first we wanted to play part of 30 00:01:54,191 --> 00:01:57,031 Speaker 1: our interview with someone who wasn't officially on her staff, 31 00:01:57,351 --> 00:01:59,791 Speaker 1: but who did everything he could to exert his influence 32 00:01:59,871 --> 00:02:04,711 Speaker 1: during the recount, the lawyer and lobbyist Max Dapanovitch. You 33 00:02:04,751 --> 00:02:08,391 Speaker 1: might remember Stapanovitch from episode three of the series. He's 34 00:02:08,431 --> 00:02:10,751 Speaker 1: the guy who says he was secretly and by someone 35 00:02:10,791 --> 00:02:13,591 Speaker 1: affiliated with the Bush campaign to embed with the Secretary 36 00:02:13,631 --> 00:02:17,030 Speaker 1: of State's office and steer Katherine Harris towards decisions that 37 00:02:17,071 --> 00:02:20,391 Speaker 1: would benefit the Republicans. When I sat down with Stapanovitch 38 00:02:20,391 --> 00:02:22,791 Speaker 1: for our interview, he told me how he landed in 39 00:02:22,831 --> 00:02:24,831 Speaker 1: Harris's office days after the election. 40 00:02:25,951 --> 00:02:32,071 Speaker 2: I was pursuing a master's in medieval French history at FSU, 41 00:02:32,591 --> 00:02:35,311 Speaker 2: and I was in a Latin class when my phone 42 00:02:35,391 --> 00:02:41,631 Speaker 2: buzzed and I stepped outside to take it, and someone said, 43 00:02:41,711 --> 00:02:44,791 Speaker 2: can you get into Catherine Harris's office. This was on 44 00:02:45,391 --> 00:02:49,311 Speaker 2: the ninth Thursday, two days after the election, and so 45 00:02:50,271 --> 00:02:54,151 Speaker 2: I contacted Ben McKay, who was hurry, very young chief 46 00:02:54,151 --> 00:02:59,511 Speaker 2: of staff, and said, you guys are besieged. Do you 47 00:02:59,631 --> 00:03:03,471 Speaker 2: need any help? Ben said, boy, do we? And so 48 00:03:03,551 --> 00:03:06,871 Speaker 2: I went into Catherine's office on the afternoon of the 49 00:03:06,951 --> 00:03:13,191 Speaker 2: ninth and we went to work. The first thing we 50 00:03:13,191 --> 00:03:16,111 Speaker 2: did was we were sitting in his large conference room, 51 00:03:16,111 --> 00:03:18,151 Speaker 2: which was on the plaza level at the Capitol. I 52 00:03:18,151 --> 00:03:20,951 Speaker 2: had these floor to ceiling windows, and there were very 53 00:03:20,991 --> 00:03:24,191 Speaker 2: tall ceilings, and so we taped cardboard over those so 54 00:03:24,231 --> 00:03:26,991 Speaker 2: that folks wandering around the plaza and there were a 55 00:03:27,071 --> 00:03:30,871 Speaker 2: lot of media folks wandering around the plaza would not 56 00:03:30,951 --> 00:03:37,831 Speaker 2: see us because my presence, given my partisan reputation and all, 57 00:03:37,911 --> 00:03:40,751 Speaker 2: would have been controversial at the time. 58 00:03:41,111 --> 00:03:42,431 Speaker 1: What was your partisan reputation? 59 00:03:43,711 --> 00:03:50,351 Speaker 2: Well, I've always been a Republican operative. If that's the 60 00:03:50,431 --> 00:03:52,471 Speaker 2: right word. I don't know whether I like that phrase 61 00:03:52,551 --> 00:03:56,991 Speaker 2: or not. I was the executive director for Reagan Bush 62 00:03:57,151 --> 00:04:02,631 Speaker 2: in Florida and eighty four. I managed then mayor of 63 00:04:02,671 --> 00:04:07,911 Speaker 2: Tampa Bob Martinez's givenatorial campaign in nineteen eighty six he 64 00:04:07,951 --> 00:04:11,471 Speaker 2: was elected. I was his chief of staff. I was 65 00:04:11,511 --> 00:04:16,471 Speaker 2: a senior advisor on Jeb's first Jeb Bush's first huminatorial campaign, 66 00:04:17,591 --> 00:04:23,630 Speaker 2: and over time helped or advise others, including then Senator 67 00:04:23,711 --> 00:04:26,231 Speaker 2: Catherine Harris, who was running for Secretary of State, which 68 00:04:26,271 --> 00:04:32,510 Speaker 2: was an elective office at the time. So when it 69 00:04:32,671 --> 00:04:36,071 Speaker 2: was thought that Catherine could use some advice and counsel, 70 00:04:37,191 --> 00:04:38,311 Speaker 2: I was asked to provide it. 71 00:04:39,591 --> 00:04:41,751 Speaker 1: Now, when you say you had a reputation as a 72 00:04:41,751 --> 00:04:43,351 Speaker 1: part of them, is that just because you had worked 73 00:04:43,391 --> 00:04:45,510 Speaker 1: for all these folks or you were a true believer 74 00:04:45,591 --> 00:04:46,710 Speaker 1: and you were known as a true believer. 75 00:04:47,631 --> 00:04:49,511 Speaker 2: Probably depending on who you talk to, and you can 76 00:04:49,551 --> 00:04:51,351 Speaker 2: ask the others you're going to talk to about that, 77 00:04:51,791 --> 00:04:55,031 Speaker 2: the answer to your question is yes, depending on their perspective. 78 00:04:55,591 --> 00:04:57,311 Speaker 1: Sorry, yes, what, Yes? 79 00:04:57,591 --> 00:05:01,871 Speaker 2: I was very partisan and known for it. There was 80 00:05:01,911 --> 00:05:05,671 Speaker 2: no doubt about who I was, how I felt, or 81 00:05:06,271 --> 00:05:10,751 Speaker 2: why I was summoned. As Mary Madaline once said, I 82 00:05:10,791 --> 00:05:14,871 Speaker 2: am a bush leech, a bush let l I e g. E. 83 00:05:15,151 --> 00:05:16,831 Speaker 2: Bush Leech got a vassal. 84 00:05:18,671 --> 00:05:23,431 Speaker 1: So I mean beyond the very practical fact that they 85 00:05:23,431 --> 00:05:25,471 Speaker 1: needed help. Why would you say you were. 86 00:05:25,391 --> 00:05:33,950 Speaker 2: Summoned because it was an unprecedented circumstance. It was fraught 87 00:05:34,671 --> 00:05:38,511 Speaker 2: with politics. I mean, we were in the process of 88 00:05:38,751 --> 00:05:42,591 Speaker 2: choosing the leader of the free world, and she was 89 00:05:42,631 --> 00:05:49,070 Speaker 2: not staffed for that. She had very capable employees in 90 00:05:49,111 --> 00:05:53,671 Speaker 2: the Secretary of State's office, but this was something of 91 00:05:53,711 --> 00:05:55,911 Speaker 2: an entirely different order of magnitude. 92 00:05:57,511 --> 00:06:01,311 Speaker 1: Can you describe the atmosphere and Tallahassee in those days 93 00:06:01,351 --> 00:06:01,991 Speaker 1: after the election? 94 00:06:03,071 --> 00:06:06,591 Speaker 2: It was very tense. It was almost circus like. I mean, 95 00:06:06,631 --> 00:06:11,190 Speaker 2: there were remote trucks parked everywhere. The you know, the 96 00:06:11,231 --> 00:06:15,830 Speaker 2: biggest names and most recognizable faces in national media were 97 00:06:16,391 --> 00:06:18,951 Speaker 2: strolling up and down the plaza at the Capitol and 98 00:06:18,991 --> 00:06:23,591 Speaker 2: doing stand ups outside, and you know, were conferences with 99 00:06:23,751 --> 00:06:26,711 Speaker 2: Jim Baker for crying out loud and more than Christopher 100 00:06:26,871 --> 00:06:29,391 Speaker 2: was here. I mean, it was a byguide circus. 101 00:06:29,751 --> 00:06:30,831 Speaker 1: Did you feel like you were a part of it? 102 00:06:31,711 --> 00:06:35,351 Speaker 2: I did not feel all of that tension. I was 103 00:06:35,471 --> 00:06:40,510 Speaker 2: inside the building. I arrived at dawn, entered the building 104 00:06:40,631 --> 00:06:44,671 Speaker 2: through the basement where the cabinet room is, took the 105 00:06:44,991 --> 00:06:49,791 Speaker 2: stairs up to the plaza level, which accessed internally. The 106 00:06:49,831 --> 00:06:53,831 Speaker 2: Secretary of State's office, and then at night in someone 107 00:06:53,831 --> 00:06:56,671 Speaker 2: else's car, I was driven from the building so that 108 00:06:56,711 --> 00:06:58,471 Speaker 2: people would not know that I was in there. So 109 00:06:59,271 --> 00:07:05,911 Speaker 2: you know my feeling. My experience of the atmosphere was 110 00:07:05,951 --> 00:07:11,111 Speaker 2: a conference table in a conference room with a handful 111 00:07:11,151 --> 00:07:11,631 Speaker 2: of people. 112 00:07:12,711 --> 00:07:14,631 Speaker 1: Do you think you would have had a different role 113 00:07:14,831 --> 00:07:17,191 Speaker 1: in the recount process if you hadn't gotten that phone 114 00:07:17,231 --> 00:07:20,431 Speaker 1: call and been asked to join Secretary Harris's office? 115 00:07:20,711 --> 00:07:23,471 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have had if I hadn't been called. Uh, 116 00:07:23,551 --> 00:07:25,871 Speaker 2: I don't think I would have had. I wouldn't anticipate 117 00:07:25,911 --> 00:07:27,351 Speaker 2: I having had any role. 118 00:07:27,391 --> 00:07:28,751 Speaker 1: You don't think someone el would have called you about 119 00:07:28,751 --> 00:07:31,671 Speaker 1: some other job. I feel like everyone in Florida got 120 00:07:31,671 --> 00:07:32,671 Speaker 1: a phone call who had a law. 121 00:07:32,671 --> 00:07:34,271 Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. 122 00:07:34,471 --> 00:07:34,791 Speaker 5: I'm not. 123 00:07:35,111 --> 00:07:39,391 Speaker 2: I haven't practiced law in a while. My license remains current. 124 00:07:39,431 --> 00:07:43,391 Speaker 2: But no one would call me to represent them in 125 00:07:43,431 --> 00:07:47,031 Speaker 2: a piece of litigation relating to that or a stolen dog. 126 00:07:47,111 --> 00:07:50,031 Speaker 2: I mean, just not what I did well? 127 00:07:50,151 --> 00:07:52,271 Speaker 1: So what are your special skills that they were looking for? 128 00:07:52,991 --> 00:07:55,751 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, this is somewhat difficult because while I'm not 129 00:07:55,751 --> 00:08:00,991 Speaker 2: noted for my modesty, it would be immodest. But I 130 00:08:01,031 --> 00:08:03,631 Speaker 2: will go ahead and take the chance to say that. Uh. 131 00:08:03,671 --> 00:08:07,151 Speaker 2: You know, basically, I'm a strategist. If I have a skill, 132 00:08:07,991 --> 00:08:09,591 Speaker 2: it is you can put me in the room with 133 00:08:09,671 --> 00:08:12,591 Speaker 2: a rock, you know, room full of facts, and I 134 00:08:12,631 --> 00:08:16,711 Speaker 2: will be able to ask the right question pretty quickly 135 00:08:17,351 --> 00:08:20,191 Speaker 2: and suggest the best answer pretty quickly. 136 00:08:21,551 --> 00:08:28,831 Speaker 1: Uh, what was your assessment of what Secretary Harris's office 137 00:08:28,951 --> 00:08:32,631 Speaker 1: and and the people working with her, including yourself, could 138 00:08:32,631 --> 00:08:35,111 Speaker 1: bring to the table, Like there was this whole thing 139 00:08:35,151 --> 00:08:38,391 Speaker 1: unfolding right outside of that room with the conference table. Sure, 140 00:08:38,670 --> 00:08:40,710 Speaker 1: what was your what was it you were going to 141 00:08:41,271 --> 00:08:42,471 Speaker 1: inject into that process? 142 00:08:43,310 --> 00:08:46,111 Speaker 2: Well, first place, she was the state's chief elections officer. 143 00:08:47,271 --> 00:08:52,511 Speaker 2: Now that sounds much more impressive than it was in 144 00:08:52,511 --> 00:08:54,950 Speaker 2: fact at the time and probably is in fact now, 145 00:08:55,511 --> 00:09:00,110 Speaker 2: because you know, the individual supervisors of elections are powerful 146 00:09:00,991 --> 00:09:05,230 Speaker 2: constitutional figures in their own right, but the Secretary of 147 00:09:05,271 --> 00:09:10,751 Speaker 2: State's office did have considerable oversight. And you know, the 148 00:09:10,790 --> 00:09:14,111 Speaker 2: first thing, basically I said to Catherine when I arrived 149 00:09:14,751 --> 00:09:19,151 Speaker 2: that afternoon, is this again out of hand. We have 150 00:09:19,231 --> 00:09:23,511 Speaker 2: to bring this election in for a landing. And I'm 151 00:09:23,511 --> 00:09:27,270 Speaker 2: not big on sports analogies, but it's like a football team, 152 00:09:27,751 --> 00:09:32,271 Speaker 2: you do your job. I'll do my job and we 153 00:09:32,391 --> 00:09:35,990 Speaker 2: might be able to win. The secretary of State's job 154 00:09:36,670 --> 00:09:41,550 Speaker 2: was not to steal the election by breaking the law 155 00:09:42,151 --> 00:09:45,991 Speaker 2: or bending the law. I took the view that it 156 00:09:46,070 --> 00:09:50,310 Speaker 2: was her job to enforce the election laws of Florida, 157 00:09:51,190 --> 00:09:51,751 Speaker 2: which brings me. 158 00:09:51,751 --> 00:09:55,231 Speaker 1: Actually to another to a question about her, like, I 159 00:09:55,231 --> 00:09:56,751 Speaker 1: don't know how close you are with her or anything 160 00:09:56,790 --> 00:09:59,271 Speaker 1: about your relationship, but I'm curious you could just describe 161 00:09:59,310 --> 00:10:03,190 Speaker 1: her sort of state of mind during this time. How 162 00:10:03,231 --> 00:10:04,231 Speaker 1: this was a fact her. 163 00:10:04,391 --> 00:10:09,511 Speaker 2: Is Catherine was able, and Catherine worked really hard at 164 00:10:09,511 --> 00:10:12,631 Speaker 2: that job. She was there with the first employees. This 165 00:10:12,670 --> 00:10:14,271 Speaker 2: is not having to do with the recount. This is 166 00:10:14,271 --> 00:10:17,631 Speaker 2: on any day. She was there with the first employees 167 00:10:17,670 --> 00:10:19,910 Speaker 2: in the morning and was one of the last to leave. 168 00:10:20,030 --> 00:10:25,830 Speaker 2: She took she took the job very seriously. But this 169 00:10:25,830 --> 00:10:29,830 Speaker 2: this was something different. This is this was it's never 170 00:10:29,910 --> 00:10:33,631 Speaker 2: it had never happened before, it may never happen again. 171 00:10:34,751 --> 00:10:42,911 Speaker 2: She was very tense, she was very nervous. She wanted 172 00:10:42,910 --> 00:10:47,151 Speaker 2: to get it right. She didn't want to be hated 173 00:10:47,271 --> 00:10:54,710 Speaker 2: by half the country, and so she needed to be 174 00:10:54,830 --> 00:10:59,071 Speaker 2: encouraged to do the job the way the statute said. 175 00:10:59,871 --> 00:11:03,830 Speaker 2: And if that required her to be hated by half 176 00:11:03,871 --> 00:11:07,311 Speaker 2: the country. That was part of the job. I told 177 00:11:07,310 --> 00:11:09,350 Speaker 2: her at the time. You know, a lot of people 178 00:11:09,391 --> 00:11:13,111 Speaker 2: run for public office, and to give them the benefit 179 00:11:13,111 --> 00:11:15,910 Speaker 2: of the doubt, I assume that most of them want 180 00:11:15,910 --> 00:11:20,511 Speaker 2: to do good do good things, and they believe that 181 00:11:20,590 --> 00:11:23,751 Speaker 2: when that moment comes, when that you know, John Kennedy 182 00:11:23,830 --> 00:11:30,151 Speaker 2: profile encourage moment arise, that they will rise to the occasion. Now, 183 00:11:30,190 --> 00:11:32,271 Speaker 2: what in fact happens is is that most of the 184 00:11:32,310 --> 00:11:35,790 Speaker 2: time that moment doesn't arrive, or when it does arrive 185 00:11:35,991 --> 00:11:38,751 Speaker 2: and it would cost you something to rise to the occasion, 186 00:11:39,310 --> 00:11:43,431 Speaker 2: you fail to recognize it miraculously or you rationalize it 187 00:11:43,471 --> 00:11:46,910 Speaker 2: away so that you don't have to make that sacrifice. 188 00:11:47,111 --> 00:11:53,871 Speaker 2: I told her that this is that moment. It's not 189 00:11:53,991 --> 00:11:56,350 Speaker 2: ten years down the road when you're in Congress or 190 00:11:56,351 --> 00:12:01,391 Speaker 2: anywhere else. This is that moment. If you're going to 191 00:12:01,430 --> 00:12:03,271 Speaker 2: do something, do it today. 192 00:12:04,310 --> 00:12:06,070 Speaker 1: And what did you what did you tell her was 193 00:12:06,111 --> 00:12:08,871 Speaker 1: her her mission? And what was what was the thing 194 00:12:08,910 --> 00:12:09,910 Speaker 1: that you that she needed to do. 195 00:12:10,231 --> 00:12:13,391 Speaker 2: Yeah, to not be cowed, to not be browbeaten, whether 196 00:12:13,471 --> 00:12:17,430 Speaker 2: by you know, the Democrats, the judiciary, or the press, 197 00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:21,710 Speaker 2: to just do the job play a position forced the law. 198 00:12:22,190 --> 00:12:23,470 Speaker 1: But I guess, I guess I'm what I'm trying to 199 00:12:23,471 --> 00:12:27,310 Speaker 1: get at. It is like, how overt was it in 200 00:12:27,351 --> 00:12:30,590 Speaker 1: your conversations within the state Secretary State's office that your 201 00:12:30,910 --> 00:12:34,790 Speaker 1: goal was to deliver the election to Bush. 202 00:12:35,190 --> 00:12:38,030 Speaker 2: We didn't have to deliver the election to Bush. He'd won, 203 00:12:39,151 --> 00:12:43,631 Speaker 2: he had the votes, they'd been counted twice. The goal 204 00:12:43,790 --> 00:12:47,111 Speaker 2: was to maintain the integrity of the election and not 205 00:12:47,310 --> 00:12:50,430 Speaker 2: let it be altered by others. 206 00:12:49,910 --> 00:12:52,111 Speaker 1: But you're smiling as you say that, so I don't 207 00:12:52,111 --> 00:12:54,950 Speaker 1: know if you're trying to you know. 208 00:12:54,910 --> 00:13:02,430 Speaker 2: Well, George Bush, with two counts statewide counts, had won 209 00:13:02,471 --> 00:13:05,710 Speaker 2: the election. I think after those two state white counts, 210 00:13:05,710 --> 00:13:07,430 Speaker 2: before some of the recounts come in by a bigger 211 00:13:07,471 --> 00:13:11,471 Speaker 2: margin than it was at the end. What kind of 212 00:13:11,550 --> 00:13:13,991 Speaker 2: damn food would sit around and say, you know what, 213 00:13:15,030 --> 00:13:18,310 Speaker 2: we need to just keep counting until the other side wins. 214 00:13:19,631 --> 00:13:21,430 Speaker 2: That seemed like a good thing for us to do. 215 00:13:23,111 --> 00:13:25,470 Speaker 1: But where your critic every day? Forgive me, but what 216 00:13:25,590 --> 00:13:28,111 Speaker 1: are your critics saying, like, you guys shouldn't think of 217 00:13:28,151 --> 00:13:31,471 Speaker 1: yourselves as being on the other side of the Democrats. 218 00:13:31,511 --> 00:13:34,430 Speaker 2: Well, that was the advantage we had one is that 219 00:13:34,471 --> 00:13:37,151 Speaker 2: we were on the side of the wall. The laws 220 00:13:37,231 --> 00:13:40,871 Speaker 2: said what the dates were, and we were on the 221 00:13:40,910 --> 00:13:45,151 Speaker 2: side of the results. They'd been counted twice. So if 222 00:13:45,231 --> 00:13:50,310 Speaker 2: you wanted to fault somebody for trying to cook the books, 223 00:13:51,231 --> 00:13:53,831 Speaker 2: I would fault ron Klean and those guys, as competent 224 00:13:53,871 --> 00:13:57,551 Speaker 2: as they were, because they were the ones who would 225 00:13:57,631 --> 00:14:00,670 Speaker 2: not accept what the law in Florida said and would 226 00:14:00,710 --> 00:14:05,230 Speaker 2: not accept what the two vote counts had resulted in. 227 00:14:06,830 --> 00:14:10,430 Speaker 2: They wanted to just keep working until they could figure 228 00:14:10,471 --> 00:14:13,151 Speaker 2: out how to win an election they had lost. 229 00:14:13,871 --> 00:14:16,631 Speaker 1: To put yourself in their minds, and how to tell 230 00:14:16,631 --> 00:14:18,871 Speaker 1: me how they thought of these deadlines. You clearly thought 231 00:14:18,871 --> 00:14:20,231 Speaker 1: these were deadlines to be enforced. 232 00:14:20,311 --> 00:14:22,791 Speaker 5: What was to them, Well, they thought, they thought, I 233 00:14:22,911 --> 00:14:26,351 Speaker 5: think I think, you know, in all fairness, I think 234 00:14:26,431 --> 00:14:31,951 Speaker 5: their perspective was is that what this entire exercise was 235 00:14:31,991 --> 00:14:38,151 Speaker 5: about was divining in some fashion the will of the 236 00:14:38,231 --> 00:14:43,871 Speaker 5: electorate and taking as much time as it was necessary 237 00:14:44,351 --> 00:14:45,951 Speaker 5: to do so. 238 00:14:47,631 --> 00:14:49,871 Speaker 2: We thought, maybe a good idea, just to comply with 239 00:14:49,911 --> 00:14:50,231 Speaker 2: the law. 240 00:14:52,111 --> 00:14:54,470 Speaker 1: And so they mean they thought of these deadlines as fungible. 241 00:14:54,511 --> 00:14:55,391 Speaker 1: They thought they were what. 242 00:14:55,551 --> 00:14:59,791 Speaker 2: They thought they were advisory suggestions. We thought that they 243 00:14:59,830 --> 00:15:07,031 Speaker 2: were statutory deadlines that a court would enforce, and with 244 00:15:07,271 --> 00:15:11,711 Speaker 2: some deviations and some minor exceptions, we were right and 245 00:15:11,751 --> 00:15:12,391 Speaker 2: they were wrong. 246 00:15:14,271 --> 00:15:21,391 Speaker 1: When the Florida Supreme Court issued the injunction against the 247 00:15:21,391 --> 00:15:26,191 Speaker 1: certification on November fourteenth, A couple of questions about that. 248 00:15:26,231 --> 00:15:27,871 Speaker 1: One is did that come as a surprise to you 249 00:15:27,911 --> 00:15:33,591 Speaker 1: guys in the Secretary of State's office? And two, how 250 00:15:33,590 --> 00:15:35,511 Speaker 1: did you react? Where did that put you? 251 00:15:38,111 --> 00:15:42,071 Speaker 2: I don't have a specific memory of that. I was 252 00:15:42,231 --> 00:15:43,991 Speaker 2: tempted to make one up, but I don't have a 253 00:15:44,031 --> 00:15:48,631 Speaker 2: specific memory of that. I will tell you this. There 254 00:15:48,631 --> 00:15:51,391 Speaker 2: were any number both you know, the Supreme Court level 255 00:15:51,511 --> 00:15:54,551 Speaker 2: and at the district court level, of what, from our 256 00:15:54,590 --> 00:15:59,870 Speaker 2: perspective were legal setbacks, opinions with which decisions with which 257 00:15:59,991 --> 00:16:04,111 Speaker 2: we did not agree. But again, no sense crying over 258 00:16:04,431 --> 00:16:08,631 Speaker 2: spilt beer. When something like that occurs, you just keep going, 259 00:16:08,791 --> 00:16:12,351 Speaker 2: You do the next thing, you play your position. So 260 00:16:12,471 --> 00:16:17,431 Speaker 2: that was a disappointment. What we wanted to happen didn't happen. 261 00:16:17,830 --> 00:16:19,751 Speaker 2: So we needed to work harder to make what we 262 00:16:19,791 --> 00:16:20,830 Speaker 2: wanted to happen happen. 263 00:16:22,551 --> 00:16:24,551 Speaker 1: There seemed like there's so many what if moments in 264 00:16:24,590 --> 00:16:26,191 Speaker 1: the story you know, oh, if it had gone this way, 265 00:16:26,231 --> 00:16:28,071 Speaker 1: forget that way, could have been on you know, could 266 00:16:28,111 --> 00:16:29,750 Speaker 1: have had a defending Do you like a do you 267 00:16:29,791 --> 00:16:32,071 Speaker 1: have a favorite what if moment? A fork in the 268 00:16:32,111 --> 00:16:34,911 Speaker 1: road that went your way, or you know, and could 269 00:16:34,911 --> 00:16:35,471 Speaker 1: have gone the other. 270 00:16:37,511 --> 00:16:41,351 Speaker 2: I really don't. Again, I would like to say something dramatic, 271 00:16:41,391 --> 00:16:45,671 Speaker 2: but I really don't. The way that I approached it 272 00:16:45,751 --> 00:16:47,710 Speaker 2: in most of the people. When I say most of 273 00:16:47,751 --> 00:16:49,911 Speaker 2: the people, you're talking about a handful of people. Me 274 00:16:50,671 --> 00:16:56,431 Speaker 2: Adam Goodman. The lawyers, when we consulted with them, was 275 00:16:57,271 --> 00:17:00,911 Speaker 2: just keep pounding away, just keep doing it, day after 276 00:17:01,031 --> 00:17:05,911 Speaker 2: day after day, with nineteen days until it's done. And 277 00:17:05,951 --> 00:17:09,630 Speaker 2: so there was never a eureka moment as far as 278 00:17:09,671 --> 00:17:13,671 Speaker 2: I almost concern. I mean, on the last day, we 279 00:17:13,671 --> 00:17:15,670 Speaker 2: were keeping the office open to cut the thing off 280 00:17:15,711 --> 00:17:19,551 Speaker 2: at five o'clock. So there was never a time when 281 00:17:19,590 --> 00:17:22,311 Speaker 2: I thought, well, we want it now, this is over. 282 00:17:22,390 --> 00:17:24,071 Speaker 2: It's just all we got to do is just count 283 00:17:24,071 --> 00:17:28,671 Speaker 2: the bodies. No, it was right until they again, dumb 284 00:17:28,711 --> 00:17:31,471 Speaker 2: ass Sports Matter four played to the whistle. 285 00:17:36,150 --> 00:17:38,910 Speaker 1: All right, That was Max to Panovitch. It's worth saying 286 00:17:38,911 --> 00:17:41,751 Speaker 1: here that there is some ambivalence and even disagreement among 287 00:17:41,791 --> 00:17:44,311 Speaker 1: alumni of the Florida Secretary of State's Office about how 288 00:17:44,350 --> 00:17:47,791 Speaker 1: influential Stepanovitch really was during the recount, and we heard 289 00:17:47,791 --> 00:17:50,471 Speaker 1: from a few people that his role has been inflated 290 00:17:50,590 --> 00:17:54,750 Speaker 1: over the years. That includes Catherine Harris herself. We'll hear 291 00:17:54,751 --> 00:18:12,151 Speaker 1: from her after the break. Here's how Catherine Harris reacted 292 00:18:12,150 --> 00:18:14,551 Speaker 1: when I asked her about Stepanovitch's role on her team. 293 00:18:17,031 --> 00:18:19,150 Speaker 1: The team He's telling me we where did he feel in? 294 00:18:19,711 --> 00:18:22,751 Speaker 3: That's just funny. I mean, I've heard he makes quips, 295 00:18:22,791 --> 00:18:25,910 Speaker 3: and I know you've interviewed him, but I considered him 296 00:18:25,911 --> 00:18:29,350 Speaker 3: a friend. He would stop by the office occasionally, and 297 00:18:30,071 --> 00:18:32,430 Speaker 3: I could probably count how many times he did, but 298 00:18:32,870 --> 00:18:36,671 Speaker 3: he would come in and just talk about things off 299 00:18:36,711 --> 00:18:39,190 Speaker 3: the topic because I wasn't going outside. He was just 300 00:18:39,951 --> 00:18:42,630 Speaker 3: great to keep a calm. I've heard that he said 301 00:18:42,630 --> 00:18:45,630 Speaker 3: he advised me, which is I'm glad he thinks he did. 302 00:18:47,271 --> 00:18:49,471 Speaker 3: He was never at our legal meetings, he was never 303 00:18:49,511 --> 00:18:53,311 Speaker 3: at our strategy meetings. He was never one time at 304 00:18:53,311 --> 00:18:57,791 Speaker 3: our office meeting. Never. He was not a go between 305 00:18:58,191 --> 00:19:00,791 Speaker 3: us and the bushes. Because I shut all of that down. 306 00:19:01,471 --> 00:19:04,630 Speaker 1: He definitely told me that he was in there. 307 00:19:04,830 --> 00:19:07,471 Speaker 3: Never, not one time in one legal meeting, not one 308 00:19:07,511 --> 00:19:10,031 Speaker 3: time with Debbie Kerns, not one time with Joe Clas. 309 00:19:10,150 --> 00:19:12,350 Speaker 1: I was at a conference table, like we blocked out 310 00:19:12,350 --> 00:19:14,271 Speaker 1: the windows. No one know I was there never. 311 00:19:15,110 --> 00:19:17,430 Speaker 3: I can't remember one thing that he directed us to do, 312 00:19:17,511 --> 00:19:20,350 Speaker 3: because the things we did we decided in our with 313 00:19:20,350 --> 00:19:22,791 Speaker 3: our attorneys. And by the way, with the attorneys were 314 00:19:22,830 --> 00:19:25,470 Speaker 3: never sitting at a conference table. We're sitting in my 315 00:19:25,551 --> 00:19:30,031 Speaker 3: office on the sofa and chairs always. 316 00:19:30,311 --> 00:19:32,591 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to square this with what yeah, yeah. 317 00:19:32,431 --> 00:19:34,470 Speaker 3: No, I mean he can say that, but that's he 318 00:19:34,590 --> 00:19:38,071 Speaker 3: wants to insert himself as important, and I understand, and 319 00:19:38,110 --> 00:19:40,031 Speaker 3: I value I valued his friendship. 320 00:19:40,511 --> 00:19:42,551 Speaker 1: This was one of many issues that Harris wanted to 321 00:19:42,551 --> 00:19:44,311 Speaker 1: set the record straight about. When I talked to her, 322 00:19:44,991 --> 00:19:46,991 Speaker 1: and when I asked her what the biggest misconception was 323 00:19:47,031 --> 00:19:49,471 Speaker 1: about her role in the two thousand election, she went 324 00:19:49,511 --> 00:19:51,791 Speaker 1: to consult a notebook where she had written down specific 325 00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:53,231 Speaker 1: claims that she wanted to address. 326 00:19:53,830 --> 00:19:56,230 Speaker 3: There are so many misconceptions. 327 00:19:55,991 --> 00:19:58,311 Speaker 1: Is this as you bring a list, No, I start now. 328 00:19:58,511 --> 00:20:00,271 Speaker 3: I started writing on the way home from Disney World 329 00:20:00,311 --> 00:20:03,231 Speaker 3: and taking our grandchildren. I was just wondering what would 330 00:20:03,231 --> 00:20:07,470 Speaker 3: be the greatest misconception. There are so many I mean, 331 00:20:07,471 --> 00:20:12,791 Speaker 3: there were so many things perpetuated, perhaps that I stopped 332 00:20:12,791 --> 00:20:19,551 Speaker 3: the recounts, or that I arranged that some would be disenfranchised, 333 00:20:20,191 --> 00:20:23,111 Speaker 3: you know, which was never We were always we thought, 334 00:20:23,150 --> 00:20:25,031 Speaker 3: we were always bending over backwards to do more. 335 00:20:25,830 --> 00:20:29,751 Speaker 1: I'll be honest, I'm skeptical of this framing. To my mind, 336 00:20:29,791 --> 00:20:31,910 Speaker 1: it just doesn't square with all the decisions that Harris 337 00:20:31,911 --> 00:20:33,910 Speaker 1: and her staff made that had the effect of limiting 338 00:20:33,911 --> 00:20:36,711 Speaker 1: the scope of the recount. But I'm not here to 339 00:20:36,791 --> 00:20:39,630 Speaker 1: argue with Harris. Those thirty six days were not easy 340 00:20:39,630 --> 00:20:41,951 Speaker 1: for her. As you heard on Fiasco. She faced all 341 00:20:41,991 --> 00:20:44,590 Speaker 1: kinds of ridicule and sexist comments from the media, not 342 00:20:44,711 --> 00:20:47,391 Speaker 1: to mention death threats. She also had to make tough 343 00:20:47,471 --> 00:20:49,991 Speaker 1: choices in the course of enforcing laws that were contradictory 344 00:20:50,110 --> 00:20:53,031 Speaker 1: and vague. That's why I wanted to talk to her 345 00:20:53,471 --> 00:20:55,271 Speaker 1: to find out what her frame of mind was during 346 00:20:55,311 --> 00:20:58,910 Speaker 1: the recount that made her famous. But it wasn't that easy. 347 00:20:59,551 --> 00:21:02,071 Speaker 1: As Harris warned me going into our interview, she doesn't 348 00:21:02,071 --> 00:21:04,031 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time thinking about the details of 349 00:21:04,031 --> 00:21:07,191 Speaker 1: the recount, and nearly twenty years later, she just doesn't 350 00:21:07,231 --> 00:21:09,470 Speaker 1: remember the particulars of what happened or what she was 351 00:21:09,471 --> 00:21:12,670 Speaker 1: thinking at the time. Time Still, I think it's in 352 00:21:12,711 --> 00:21:14,751 Speaker 1: the spirit of this podcast to give everyone a chance 353 00:21:14,751 --> 00:21:16,791 Speaker 1: to explain where they were coming from as best they can, 354 00:21:17,271 --> 00:21:20,190 Speaker 1: and to make their case for Harris. Part of that 355 00:21:20,271 --> 00:21:23,110 Speaker 1: case was that a show called Fiasco shouldn't even be 356 00:21:23,150 --> 00:21:24,751 Speaker 1: tackling the Florida recount at all. 357 00:21:25,431 --> 00:21:31,110 Speaker 3: It wasn't a fiasco, it wasn't a constitutional crisis. It 358 00:21:31,110 --> 00:21:35,670 Speaker 3: was close election. And what people didn't understand typically is 359 00:21:35,711 --> 00:21:38,791 Speaker 3: that Florida is not a red state. We're not a 360 00:21:38,791 --> 00:21:42,031 Speaker 3: blue state. We're a purple state, and we are always 361 00:21:42,071 --> 00:21:44,311 Speaker 3: going to have these close elections. And there's nothing wrong 362 00:21:44,350 --> 00:21:47,511 Speaker 3: with Florida. It's pretty remarkable that rule of law prevailed 363 00:21:47,951 --> 00:21:50,231 Speaker 3: and there wasn't a gunshot fired and a new president 364 00:21:50,271 --> 00:21:55,110 Speaker 3: was elected. So I would say what was fiasco esque 365 00:21:55,791 --> 00:21:58,071 Speaker 3: was the way the media handled it, and we're so 366 00:21:58,191 --> 00:22:02,830 Speaker 3: out of control with incorrect information. We had never had 367 00:22:02,830 --> 00:22:06,071 Speaker 3: this kind of situation before. They were quoting their own 368 00:22:06,110 --> 00:22:08,710 Speaker 3: state laws instead of looking at Florida's laws, and Florida 369 00:22:08,751 --> 00:22:11,951 Speaker 3: has unique laws. They did and understand a real critical 370 00:22:11,991 --> 00:22:16,311 Speaker 3: process called the protests and the contest face and even 371 00:22:16,431 --> 00:22:21,711 Speaker 3: al Gore's attorneys advised him illy wrongly from out of 372 00:22:21,751 --> 00:22:24,590 Speaker 3: the state, and those state attorneys that he had were saying, 373 00:22:24,671 --> 00:22:27,670 Speaker 3: don't do this like Catherine's heart. So I would not 374 00:22:28,951 --> 00:22:33,630 Speaker 3: say that the election was a fiasco, because the laws 375 00:22:33,671 --> 00:22:38,830 Speaker 3: were sufficient to elect a president in a peaceful manner. 376 00:22:39,791 --> 00:22:42,191 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I've talked to now a number of people 377 00:22:42,191 --> 00:22:44,750 Speaker 1: who have told us stories about like going abroad and 378 00:22:44,791 --> 00:22:48,071 Speaker 1: talking to people in different countries, especially countries where they 379 00:22:48,271 --> 00:22:53,510 Speaker 1: aren't necessarily democratic, and kind of being telling them like, 380 00:22:53,671 --> 00:22:55,791 Speaker 1: you know, yes, this was I'm sure it looked like 381 00:22:55,830 --> 00:22:57,751 Speaker 1: a big mess from outside. We guess what. We didn't 382 00:22:57,791 --> 00:23:01,230 Speaker 1: have a single you know, there's no generals marching in 383 00:23:01,271 --> 00:23:05,311 Speaker 1: the street. There was no you know, there was no 384 00:23:05,311 --> 00:23:09,271 Speaker 1: no coup. Right, this was a rule of law situation 385 00:23:09,350 --> 00:23:11,311 Speaker 1: that got resolved through the courts. 386 00:23:12,110 --> 00:23:15,390 Speaker 3: He did. In fact, the law was my only safe harbor. 387 00:23:15,791 --> 00:23:19,230 Speaker 3: I said early on that I asked my husband, who 388 00:23:19,271 --> 00:23:22,031 Speaker 3: had just become a citizen, what am I going to do? 389 00:23:22,590 --> 00:23:25,470 Speaker 3: Just kind of rhetorical question. He said it was really simple. 390 00:23:25,830 --> 00:23:29,511 Speaker 3: He was Swedish. He said, you just have to protect 391 00:23:29,551 --> 00:23:33,710 Speaker 3: your staff because Secretary of State when I finished my 392 00:23:33,830 --> 00:23:38,390 Speaker 3: term would become an appointed position, and I'll speak to 393 00:23:38,390 --> 00:23:40,830 Speaker 3: that in a moment, but he said, you just have 394 00:23:40,870 --> 00:23:42,750 Speaker 3: to protect your staff, to make sure that they're not 395 00:23:42,791 --> 00:23:46,710 Speaker 3: put in positions or squandered for the future, and you 396 00:23:46,791 --> 00:23:48,870 Speaker 3: have to act with the most extraordinary integrity because you 397 00:23:48,911 --> 00:23:50,590 Speaker 3: have to live with yourself the rest of your life. 398 00:23:51,110 --> 00:23:55,671 Speaker 3: And I think that advice served me well. People still 399 00:23:55,711 --> 00:23:58,511 Speaker 3: come up to me and say thank you a weekly. 400 00:23:58,590 --> 00:24:03,471 Speaker 3: I'm in airports every week, so I'm surprised by that. 401 00:24:03,511 --> 00:24:06,830 Speaker 3: But I've never accepted that compliment. I just say, hey, 402 00:24:06,911 --> 00:24:09,590 Speaker 3: I didn't do anything special. I just followed our laws 403 00:24:09,590 --> 00:24:12,630 Speaker 3: and they were efficient. Gratefully, I don't have liberals come 404 00:24:12,711 --> 00:24:14,431 Speaker 3: up and say anything mean to me, at least my face, 405 00:24:14,511 --> 00:24:16,711 Speaker 3: behind my back eyes, but not to my face. And 406 00:24:16,751 --> 00:24:21,711 Speaker 3: so I do appreciate that gesture or lack of gesture. 407 00:24:21,991 --> 00:24:23,590 Speaker 1: You mean, the folks who are saying thank you are like, 408 00:24:23,630 --> 00:24:25,751 Speaker 1: there are people who are glad that Bush became president, 409 00:24:25,791 --> 00:24:27,511 Speaker 1: and they think that you are to thank for that. 410 00:24:27,830 --> 00:24:30,630 Speaker 3: Well I had. I mean, I was just there, I 411 00:24:30,671 --> 00:24:33,390 Speaker 3: certified the election. It was kind of a ministerial job. 412 00:24:33,751 --> 00:24:36,670 Speaker 3: Just thanked me for not caving into the pressure and 413 00:24:36,751 --> 00:24:38,231 Speaker 3: doing something that was contrary to the law. 414 00:24:40,390 --> 00:24:42,711 Speaker 1: Did you feel like you were you and your team 415 00:24:42,791 --> 00:24:47,031 Speaker 1: were Maxi's family's notwithstanding. Did you you feel like you 416 00:24:47,071 --> 00:24:48,671 Speaker 1: and your team were like in the trenches. 417 00:24:49,231 --> 00:24:51,911 Speaker 3: Yeah, we did, and we sort of felt like we 418 00:24:52,350 --> 00:24:54,590 Speaker 3: because I never could go outside. I never could leave 419 00:24:55,071 --> 00:24:59,031 Speaker 3: the office. All of a sudden, I had death threats, windows 420 00:24:59,031 --> 00:25:01,230 Speaker 3: were shot out, people were on my property taking pictures 421 00:25:01,231 --> 00:25:01,991 Speaker 3: inside my house. 422 00:25:02,870 --> 00:25:04,190 Speaker 1: Oh on, you had windows shut up? 423 00:25:04,231 --> 00:25:04,391 Speaker 2: Yep. 424 00:25:04,431 --> 00:25:07,230 Speaker 3: I had. My State Senate window was shot. I had 425 00:25:07,231 --> 00:25:09,950 Speaker 3: a guy who was a murderer and released from Brazil. 426 00:25:10,551 --> 00:25:13,031 Speaker 3: He began stalking me. It just was a crazy time. 427 00:25:13,191 --> 00:25:16,751 Speaker 3: FBI had credible threats, people calling before I went into 428 00:25:16,751 --> 00:25:20,390 Speaker 3: my very first interview, and I'd never seen a sea 429 00:25:20,431 --> 00:25:22,791 Speaker 3: of camera importers like that. I opened the door, I 430 00:25:22,830 --> 00:25:25,311 Speaker 3: saw them, and then the chief of police until last 431 00:25:25,350 --> 00:25:28,510 Speaker 3: he said, don't worry about that credible threat from the 432 00:25:28,590 --> 00:25:31,391 Speaker 3: FBI about blowing up your house. I've got it under control. 433 00:25:31,911 --> 00:25:35,031 Speaker 3: I shut the door that I said, what, So, I 434 00:25:35,071 --> 00:25:36,791 Speaker 3: feel like we felt like we were in the trenches 435 00:25:36,791 --> 00:25:39,430 Speaker 3: of it. Yeah. You look out the windows and you 436 00:25:39,471 --> 00:25:46,350 Speaker 3: see hundreds of people and endless media trucks, and I 437 00:25:46,390 --> 00:25:49,830 Speaker 3: would watch TV occasionally and see they would say things 438 00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:53,671 Speaker 3: that were so outrageous, so pat land true, and I understand. 439 00:25:53,671 --> 00:25:56,630 Speaker 3: I mean, if you look at politics today, it's become 440 00:25:56,630 --> 00:26:05,431 Speaker 3: a roadmap discredit them intellectually, discredit them their appearance, their intellect, 441 00:26:05,511 --> 00:26:09,950 Speaker 3: and then discredit their integrity. And so they were doing that, 442 00:26:10,231 --> 00:26:12,711 Speaker 3: and they were acting like I was some dilettante. They said, 443 00:26:13,071 --> 00:26:17,391 Speaker 3: she's the baronial Florida, She's the brahmin of the highest order, 444 00:26:17,630 --> 00:26:20,951 Speaker 3: she's old money. I mean, all these. 445 00:26:20,911 --> 00:26:22,791 Speaker 1: Crazy things, She's the baronial one. 446 00:26:23,350 --> 00:26:26,830 Speaker 3: I can't even remember what it was, you know, just 447 00:26:26,870 --> 00:26:32,071 Speaker 3: saying that I was so wealthy to be discredited anyway, 448 00:26:32,150 --> 00:26:35,551 Speaker 3: It didn't matter appearance, intellect, never mind that I did 449 00:26:35,630 --> 00:26:38,590 Speaker 3: my master's at Harvard double course load did it while 450 00:26:38,630 --> 00:26:42,630 Speaker 3: I was in office. And then they of course attacked 451 00:26:42,671 --> 00:26:46,991 Speaker 3: my integrity. So you know, none of those things are pleasant. 452 00:26:47,671 --> 00:26:50,510 Speaker 3: But I was elected, I swore an oath, and I 453 00:26:50,551 --> 00:26:51,191 Speaker 3: was going to do it. 454 00:26:51,630 --> 00:26:53,270 Speaker 1: When did all that stuff start with what you were 455 00:26:53,271 --> 00:26:56,471 Speaker 1: just describing day one or two? Day one or two. 456 00:26:58,830 --> 00:27:03,311 Speaker 1: What was your reaction when you learned that there were 457 00:27:03,311 --> 00:27:06,751 Speaker 1: these problems with the butterfly ballot like, I've talked to 458 00:27:06,751 --> 00:27:08,031 Speaker 1: a bunch of people are like, oh, the first time 459 00:27:08,071 --> 00:27:10,111 Speaker 1: I heard there was an issue, like someone called me 460 00:27:10,150 --> 00:27:12,031 Speaker 1: and so they were really upset. Like do you remember 461 00:27:12,031 --> 00:27:13,390 Speaker 1: how you learned there were robot calls? 462 00:27:13,431 --> 00:27:16,351 Speaker 3: I knew that the Democrats had hired a big marketing 463 00:27:16,350 --> 00:27:18,350 Speaker 3: firm to do these robo calls to all the people 464 00:27:18,350 --> 00:27:20,991 Speaker 3: on beach, and they got really scared. We all of 465 00:27:21,031 --> 00:27:24,511 Speaker 3: a sudden said, what's going on? Oh, we got a 466 00:27:24,511 --> 00:27:27,950 Speaker 3: phone call that said about the butterfly ballot. So there 467 00:27:27,951 --> 00:27:30,870 Speaker 3: were these calls that went out that everyone got concerned 468 00:27:30,911 --> 00:27:34,951 Speaker 3: about the butterfly ballot. And I don't I could see 469 00:27:34,991 --> 00:27:37,190 Speaker 3: that there could be a confusion, But you know, I 470 00:27:37,231 --> 00:27:38,471 Speaker 3: wasn't there on the ground for that. 471 00:27:39,751 --> 00:27:41,791 Speaker 1: Did you did you get why people were upset? 472 00:27:42,150 --> 00:27:44,031 Speaker 3: Oh? You could look at the ballot and see that 473 00:27:44,390 --> 00:27:47,430 Speaker 3: it was confusing. I don't know what the remedy was 474 00:27:47,511 --> 00:27:51,231 Speaker 3: other than what we did right, but I could see 475 00:27:51,231 --> 00:27:54,551 Speaker 3: that some people were confused. I'm sure that the phone 476 00:27:54,551 --> 00:27:57,430 Speaker 3: calls and the creation of that anxiety and fanning the 477 00:27:57,471 --> 00:28:01,870 Speaker 3: fire flames really high, that that stoked a lot more concern. 478 00:28:02,590 --> 00:28:04,150 Speaker 3: But of course I could see that. 479 00:28:04,431 --> 00:28:06,751 Speaker 1: I guess I'm asking not like, do you can you 480 00:28:06,791 --> 00:28:08,951 Speaker 1: imagine yourself making the same mistake on that belot, But 481 00:28:08,951 --> 00:28:11,670 Speaker 1: I'm asking like, do you get why people were sad 482 00:28:11,711 --> 00:28:13,430 Speaker 1: and freaked out? 483 00:28:13,511 --> 00:28:17,190 Speaker 3: If you were confused? I see why they were confused. 484 00:28:17,231 --> 00:28:18,870 Speaker 3: I don't think I would have made that mistake. I 485 00:28:18,870 --> 00:28:22,671 Speaker 3: don't think it was not that hard to vote for Gore. 486 00:28:23,231 --> 00:28:25,390 Speaker 3: That was actually kind of simple. But if somebody wanted 487 00:28:25,390 --> 00:28:27,631 Speaker 3: to be confused, or I mean not wanted to be confused, 488 00:28:27,671 --> 00:28:30,631 Speaker 3: but they're getting nervous in their voting, then perhaps they were. 489 00:28:31,071 --> 00:28:33,791 Speaker 3: But I think that the robocalls that went out to 490 00:28:33,991 --> 00:28:36,191 Speaker 3: the voters of Pabach County really stoked it up. 491 00:28:36,350 --> 00:28:38,190 Speaker 1: Do you think a lot fewer people then, like the 492 00:28:38,231 --> 00:28:41,831 Speaker 1: three thousand something Buchanan votes, were actually trying to vote 493 00:28:41,831 --> 00:28:42,151 Speaker 1: for Gore. 494 00:28:42,591 --> 00:28:46,271 Speaker 3: I think a great number of them were certainly certainly 495 00:28:46,471 --> 00:28:48,751 Speaker 3: voting for Gore. But I can't you know, I can't 496 00:28:48,791 --> 00:28:52,111 Speaker 3: anticipate that, I can't judge that. But yes, I do 497 00:28:52,191 --> 00:28:55,071 Speaker 3: think that there would be a number, a significant number, 498 00:28:55,111 --> 00:28:58,990 Speaker 3: that would have voted for Gore. And I think there 499 00:28:59,071 --> 00:29:02,990 Speaker 3: would be dens of alsands that would have voted for 500 00:29:03,151 --> 00:29:05,471 Speaker 3: Bush in the Panhandle of the Media hadn't told them 501 00:29:05,471 --> 00:29:06,631 Speaker 3: that al Gore had already won. 502 00:29:06,871 --> 00:29:11,271 Speaker 1: So then the butterfly ballot thing was entirely separate, right 503 00:29:11,311 --> 00:29:14,711 Speaker 1: from the undervote over vote problem that the Gore team 504 00:29:15,031 --> 00:29:20,071 Speaker 1: was pointing to in Miami Dade, Broward, Volusia, and Palm Beach. Right, 505 00:29:20,191 --> 00:29:22,991 Speaker 1: that's correct, they were like connected, but they weren't actually connected. 506 00:29:24,231 --> 00:29:26,511 Speaker 3: That they weren't. They were not one and the same. 507 00:29:26,711 --> 00:29:28,431 Speaker 3: They were two separate issues. 508 00:29:28,511 --> 00:29:30,631 Speaker 1: Yeah, but they kind of became one story in the media, right, 509 00:29:30,871 --> 00:29:32,791 Speaker 1: or at least, like, I don't know, I I'll be 510 00:29:32,831 --> 00:29:34,631 Speaker 1: promly honest with you when I started, Before I started 511 00:29:34,631 --> 00:29:36,991 Speaker 1: working on this, I didn't realize the butterfly ballot was 512 00:29:37,391 --> 00:29:39,991 Speaker 1: not really part of the legal maneuver like legal fight. 513 00:29:40,391 --> 00:29:43,911 Speaker 3: No, the butterfly ballot was only registered for Palm Beach 514 00:29:43,951 --> 00:29:48,151 Speaker 3: County because that was only created in that county, right, And. 515 00:29:48,111 --> 00:29:50,071 Speaker 1: So basically the problem the problem is, I understand it 516 00:29:50,111 --> 00:29:52,071 Speaker 1: was that in each each of these four counties, there 517 00:29:52,071 --> 00:29:55,911 Speaker 1: were ballots that the machine hadn't where the machine hadn't 518 00:29:55,911 --> 00:29:58,151 Speaker 1: registered to vote, right, So it was either an undervote 519 00:29:58,151 --> 00:30:00,911 Speaker 1: where it seemed like no, like the person hadn't voted 520 00:30:00,911 --> 00:30:03,311 Speaker 1: for president at all, or it was an over vote 521 00:30:03,351 --> 00:30:06,071 Speaker 1: where they seemed to have voted for two presidential candidates, 522 00:30:07,711 --> 00:30:10,551 Speaker 1: and that there were like significant numbers of these these ballots, 523 00:30:10,591 --> 00:30:15,031 Speaker 1: like tens of thousands of ballots, and those are the 524 00:30:15,071 --> 00:30:17,511 Speaker 1: ones that I gather, like the Gore people were trying 525 00:30:17,511 --> 00:30:22,151 Speaker 1: to get counted by hand. Was any part of you like, man, 526 00:30:22,951 --> 00:30:24,871 Speaker 1: would be really great if we could count those votes. 527 00:30:25,071 --> 00:30:27,311 Speaker 3: I petitioned the Florida Supreme Court to count them very 528 00:30:27,311 --> 00:30:29,671 Speaker 3: first week of the recount, I mean of the election. 529 00:30:30,111 --> 00:30:34,750 Speaker 3: We petitioned the Florida Supreme Court for a manual recount statewide. Therefore, 530 00:30:34,791 --> 00:30:37,951 Speaker 3: you'd have equal protection under the law and uniform standards. 531 00:30:38,031 --> 00:30:39,470 Speaker 1: God, why haven't I read about that anywhere? 532 00:30:39,551 --> 00:30:41,151 Speaker 3: I don't know. It's kind of annoying, isn't it. I'll 533 00:30:41,191 --> 00:30:41,991 Speaker 3: get you the information. 534 00:30:42,191 --> 00:30:43,271 Speaker 1: And why do you want to do? Why did you 535 00:30:43,271 --> 00:30:43,551 Speaker 1: want that? 536 00:30:43,871 --> 00:30:47,911 Speaker 3: Because it would be a way too for everyone to 537 00:30:47,951 --> 00:30:52,551 Speaker 3: feel good that every vote was counted correctly by a 538 00:30:52,671 --> 00:30:56,151 Speaker 3: uniform standard and no one got special treatment, and we 539 00:30:56,511 --> 00:31:00,111 Speaker 3: knew the results we wanted. We wanted who the people 540 00:31:00,151 --> 00:31:03,791 Speaker 3: of Florida elected to be the person that was the victor. 541 00:31:04,791 --> 00:31:06,591 Speaker 1: Now I need to step in for a second here, 542 00:31:06,671 --> 00:31:09,391 Speaker 1: because this is important and it's something Katherin Harris really 543 00:31:09,431 --> 00:31:12,831 Speaker 1: pressed with me that the Secretary of State's office petitioned 544 00:31:12,871 --> 00:31:15,471 Speaker 1: the Florida Supreme Court to order a state wide hand 545 00:31:15,511 --> 00:31:18,351 Speaker 1: recount a week after the election, and that the Florida 546 00:31:18,391 --> 00:31:21,911 Speaker 1: Supreme Court turned the petition down. As far as I 547 00:31:21,911 --> 00:31:24,831 Speaker 1: can tell, this just isn't true. While the Secretary of 548 00:31:24,831 --> 00:31:27,351 Speaker 1: State's office did submit a petition with the Florida Supreme 549 00:31:27,351 --> 00:31:30,671 Speaker 1: Court on November fifteenth, the petition was not asking for 550 00:31:30,711 --> 00:31:33,671 Speaker 1: a statewide manual recount. It was asking for the Court 551 00:31:33,711 --> 00:31:36,351 Speaker 1: to take control of all the election related litigation that 552 00:31:36,391 --> 00:31:39,270 Speaker 1: was flying around the state, including the recounts that were 553 00:31:39,271 --> 00:31:41,471 Speaker 1: already under way and the counties where Gore had asked 554 00:31:41,511 --> 00:31:44,511 Speaker 1: for them. The petition calls on the Court to make 555 00:31:44,591 --> 00:31:47,391 Speaker 1: clear that quote, the election of the president and vice 556 00:31:47,431 --> 00:31:50,271 Speaker 1: president is not a matter of local pleasure. It is 557 00:31:50,311 --> 00:31:53,831 Speaker 1: at least a statewide matter of concern. This Court must 558 00:31:53,871 --> 00:31:56,591 Speaker 1: assume control over this litigation to preserve its ability to 559 00:31:56,671 --> 00:31:59,391 Speaker 1: establish standards and to protect the voters of the state. 560 00:32:00,631 --> 00:32:03,510 Speaker 1: But it does not request a statewide manual recount. As 561 00:32:03,511 --> 00:32:07,591 Speaker 1: Harris told me, all right back to the interview, and 562 00:32:07,631 --> 00:32:09,951 Speaker 1: you were. I mean, you were obviously you were against 563 00:32:10,151 --> 00:32:12,551 Speaker 1: the extension of the deadline. They moved the deadline all 564 00:32:12,551 --> 00:32:15,831 Speaker 1: the way from the fourteenth to the twenty sixth, right. 565 00:32:15,871 --> 00:32:18,831 Speaker 3: Right, I remember if I voiced an opinion on that 566 00:32:18,951 --> 00:32:20,151 Speaker 3: or not. I don't. I don't know. 567 00:32:20,231 --> 00:32:21,710 Speaker 1: Well, you guys argued in court against it. 568 00:32:21,911 --> 00:32:26,510 Speaker 3: I didn't. I never went to any of the judiciary issues. 569 00:32:26,591 --> 00:32:28,791 Speaker 3: I felt I was so politically charged. I didn't want 570 00:32:28,831 --> 00:32:30,671 Speaker 3: to bring anything to the table. 571 00:32:30,991 --> 00:32:33,871 Speaker 1: I don't feel like it's I'm saying anything controversial by 572 00:32:33,991 --> 00:32:36,871 Speaker 1: saying that you wanted to certify the election, and you 573 00:32:36,871 --> 00:32:38,631 Speaker 1: thought you're supposed to certify it on the fourteenth. 574 00:32:38,831 --> 00:32:41,270 Speaker 3: Well, and then the Supreme Court said no, no, you're 575 00:32:41,311 --> 00:32:43,391 Speaker 3: gonna have to wait till the twenty sixth. I mean, 576 00:32:43,911 --> 00:32:45,230 Speaker 3: if that's what I have to do, that's what you 577 00:32:45,271 --> 00:32:46,470 Speaker 3: have to do. You what are you going to do? 578 00:32:47,831 --> 00:32:49,631 Speaker 1: Well, you appeal it, which. 579 00:32:49,471 --> 00:32:51,591 Speaker 3: You guys did, which we did, and we didn't win. 580 00:32:51,751 --> 00:32:53,711 Speaker 1: So I'm curious, like, so, why'd you peel it? 581 00:32:54,911 --> 00:32:57,151 Speaker 3: I can't answer you that we are going back and 582 00:32:57,231 --> 00:33:00,551 Speaker 3: asking me what the legal quest was, and I absolutely 583 00:33:00,831 --> 00:33:01,831 Speaker 3: have no recall. 584 00:33:01,951 --> 00:33:05,071 Speaker 1: I'm not asking you the legal question like I'm asking, like, 585 00:33:05,071 --> 00:33:07,271 Speaker 1: why was it bad to give a little more time 586 00:33:07,311 --> 00:33:09,511 Speaker 1: to people for those kinds account of votes. 587 00:33:09,511 --> 00:33:10,631 Speaker 3: I don't remember the legal reasons. 588 00:33:10,671 --> 00:33:11,751 Speaker 1: I'm not asking the legal reasons. 589 00:33:11,751 --> 00:33:14,311 Speaker 3: I don't know then, but I don't remember why. 590 00:33:14,431 --> 00:33:16,311 Speaker 1: You don't remember why you thought it was preferable to 591 00:33:16,351 --> 00:33:17,511 Speaker 1: have the vost counted up early. 592 00:33:17,751 --> 00:33:20,271 Speaker 3: I really, I'm not going to venture a guess on 593 00:33:20,671 --> 00:33:24,270 Speaker 3: what I thought then because I can't remember. I mean, 594 00:33:24,271 --> 00:33:26,071 Speaker 3: I was in the midst of all the legalities. I 595 00:33:26,151 --> 00:33:28,671 Speaker 3: was in the midst of all of the laws and 596 00:33:28,991 --> 00:33:33,711 Speaker 3: indivisional elections, and so there must have been grounds that 597 00:33:34,151 --> 00:33:37,271 Speaker 3: we felt that that wasn't correct, But I can't recall those, 598 00:33:37,311 --> 00:33:38,911 Speaker 3: so I don't I'm not going to even try. 599 00:33:41,631 --> 00:33:42,950 Speaker 1: Can I ask you just to I mean, I know 600 00:33:42,991 --> 00:33:44,871 Speaker 1: you said you don't want to like talk about how 601 00:33:44,911 --> 00:33:47,591 Speaker 1: you felt it or anything, but yeah, can you tell me, 602 00:33:47,671 --> 00:33:49,111 Speaker 1: like how you felt at the end. 603 00:33:50,911 --> 00:33:53,710 Speaker 3: Oh, let's see. Well, I remember my family came down 604 00:33:53,751 --> 00:33:56,631 Speaker 3: from Georgia back with me. I just said, do you 605 00:33:56,671 --> 00:33:58,991 Speaker 3: guys want to go back to tellhow Se'm for the certification? 606 00:33:59,031 --> 00:34:02,471 Speaker 3: And they did. My sister had three year old twins, 607 00:34:02,991 --> 00:34:05,230 Speaker 3: and I remember asking them in my office. What do 608 00:34:05,271 --> 00:34:08,631 Speaker 3: you think I should say to them? And the little 609 00:34:08,711 --> 00:34:10,671 Speaker 3: one of the little three year olds said, just tell. 610 00:34:10,471 --> 00:34:12,671 Speaker 1: Them thank you, say thank you to whom. 611 00:34:12,711 --> 00:34:16,671 Speaker 3: He's the three year old to the audience. 612 00:34:16,871 --> 00:34:17,511 Speaker 1: What audience. 613 00:34:17,711 --> 00:34:21,791 Speaker 3: So the certification occurred in the cabinet room. So there 614 00:34:22,111 --> 00:34:29,270 Speaker 3: were three of us on the certification, the head of 615 00:34:29,311 --> 00:34:34,230 Speaker 3: the Division of Elections, Clay Roberts, Bob Crawford, the ad commissioner, 616 00:34:34,591 --> 00:34:37,710 Speaker 3: and I, and our role was to add up the 617 00:34:37,791 --> 00:34:40,790 Speaker 3: votes of sixty seven counties and announce it. So I 618 00:34:40,791 --> 00:34:43,991 Speaker 3: announced it, I said thank you, and we left and 619 00:34:43,991 --> 00:34:45,631 Speaker 3: I flew home. I flew home that night. It was 620 00:34:45,671 --> 00:34:51,270 Speaker 3: a my husband's best friend's wife's birthday, and I had 621 00:34:51,270 --> 00:34:53,310 Speaker 3: a pilot with me, but I flew on instruments and 622 00:34:53,351 --> 00:34:55,470 Speaker 3: I said, gosh, you got to get thirty thousand feet 623 00:34:55,511 --> 00:34:57,190 Speaker 3: up because your feedback on the ground, because you know, 624 00:34:57,190 --> 00:35:00,430 Speaker 3: you could only focus on flying. You couldn't think about 625 00:35:00,431 --> 00:35:03,390 Speaker 3: anything else. So that's what I did that night. 626 00:35:03,631 --> 00:35:05,471 Speaker 1: It was your role, like over after you certified. 627 00:35:06,951 --> 00:35:09,591 Speaker 3: And it's not that we weren't highly engaged after the 628 00:35:10,111 --> 00:35:13,191 Speaker 3: for the Supreme Court issues. It's just that I didn't 629 00:35:13,230 --> 00:35:15,991 Speaker 3: go there. And I mean they were calling back. We 630 00:35:16,031 --> 00:35:19,311 Speaker 3: were talking about things, but it didn't feel the same 631 00:35:19,511 --> 00:35:20,991 Speaker 3: as as previously. 632 00:35:21,151 --> 00:35:24,431 Speaker 1: Yeah, who do you think on in Florida? 633 00:35:25,230 --> 00:35:28,831 Speaker 3: I'm sure George Bush. Too many things could have gone differently. 634 00:35:28,951 --> 00:35:31,631 Speaker 3: We just know that indivision of elections. We felt that 635 00:35:31,671 --> 00:35:35,190 Speaker 3: we followed the law exactly and that's all we could do. 636 00:35:35,351 --> 00:35:37,631 Speaker 3: We didn't know who it would help and who it 637 00:35:37,631 --> 00:35:42,391 Speaker 3: would not help. We would hear sometimes that the Bush 638 00:35:42,391 --> 00:35:45,191 Speaker 3: camp wasn't happy, but we never heard that they were. 639 00:35:45,471 --> 00:35:48,191 Speaker 1: But you got a lot more bouquets from Republican voters 640 00:35:48,230 --> 00:35:49,951 Speaker 1: then you got anger from the Bush campaign. 641 00:35:50,471 --> 00:35:53,151 Speaker 3: Oh gosh, I mean, I don't. I mean it was 642 00:35:53,471 --> 00:35:55,270 Speaker 3: I just heard that a few times. One time I 643 00:35:55,311 --> 00:35:58,551 Speaker 3: heard I would never get to run for politics again 644 00:35:58,631 --> 00:35:59,231 Speaker 3: and be elected. 645 00:35:59,270 --> 00:36:00,951 Speaker 1: But but didn you say that you get thank yous 646 00:36:00,991 --> 00:36:01,830 Speaker 1: from Republican voters? 647 00:36:02,071 --> 00:36:02,270 Speaker 3: Yes? 648 00:36:02,270 --> 00:36:03,591 Speaker 1: I do, So how does that make you feel? 649 00:36:04,471 --> 00:36:07,151 Speaker 3: It's odd that they still recognize me, because I don't 650 00:36:07,151 --> 00:36:09,991 Speaker 3: think I look the same. I'm way older. And it's 651 00:36:10,031 --> 00:36:13,111 Speaker 3: it's odd that that that's kind of a flashpoint for 652 00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:15,830 Speaker 3: people and that they feel gratitude because all I did 653 00:36:15,871 --> 00:36:18,270 Speaker 3: was follow the law and I say that and they're like, well, 654 00:36:18,270 --> 00:36:20,710 Speaker 3: thank you for following the law because other people would cave. 655 00:36:20,710 --> 00:36:22,111 Speaker 3: And I don't know what caving men. I don't know 656 00:36:22,151 --> 00:36:26,270 Speaker 3: what everybody's opinion was. But they felt that I had 657 00:36:26,311 --> 00:36:29,111 Speaker 3: followed the law and that the results were good. And 658 00:36:29,151 --> 00:36:30,990 Speaker 3: I don't know if they felt that someone didn't follow 659 00:36:30,991 --> 00:36:33,311 Speaker 3: the law that there would have been a contrary result. 660 00:36:33,591 --> 00:36:35,270 Speaker 3: I can't. I don't know why they say it, but 661 00:36:35,631 --> 00:36:38,111 Speaker 3: it's it is odd that you know that people were 662 00:36:38,391 --> 00:36:39,511 Speaker 3: pretty gracious about that. 663 00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:41,431 Speaker 1: I mean, would it like, would it like be like 664 00:36:42,031 --> 00:36:44,311 Speaker 1: would it like embarrass you to know that like Republican 665 00:36:44,391 --> 00:36:46,830 Speaker 1: voters like think I feel like they have you to 666 00:36:46,831 --> 00:36:48,151 Speaker 1: thank for Bush's presidency. 667 00:36:48,190 --> 00:36:50,351 Speaker 3: Yeah, wouldn't like that. And I've never accepted the compliment, 668 00:36:50,431 --> 00:36:53,551 Speaker 3: not one time, not one moment in my life. I say, oh, 669 00:36:53,591 --> 00:36:55,230 Speaker 3: you can't thank me. All I did was follow the 670 00:36:55,270 --> 00:36:57,430 Speaker 3: law the results or that the results are what you saw. 671 00:36:58,351 --> 00:37:01,871 Speaker 3: I've always uh said that without exception. 672 00:37:02,111 --> 00:37:04,471 Speaker 1: Yeah, what's the decision that you wish you could get 673 00:37:04,471 --> 00:37:05,710 Speaker 1: a duo over on? From there? We hunt? 674 00:37:06,151 --> 00:37:10,830 Speaker 3: Thank you? That's a really good question. I would say 675 00:37:10,871 --> 00:37:14,750 Speaker 3: that because my husband gave me the greatest advice, and 676 00:37:14,791 --> 00:37:16,270 Speaker 3: I just act with integrity. You have to live with 677 00:37:16,311 --> 00:37:19,631 Speaker 3: yourself the rest of your life. I am so grateful 678 00:37:19,671 --> 00:37:22,711 Speaker 3: for that because I don't have one single solitary regret. 679 00:37:22,791 --> 00:37:26,471 Speaker 3: I had no idea the consequence of my actions and 680 00:37:26,591 --> 00:37:28,871 Speaker 3: following the law every time. Like I said, there's some 681 00:37:28,871 --> 00:37:30,790 Speaker 3: things I didn't want to do at all. I had 682 00:37:30,831 --> 00:37:33,710 Speaker 3: no idea to whose benefit it would a crewe. I 683 00:37:33,951 --> 00:37:36,270 Speaker 3: just know I had had to follow the law. I 684 00:37:36,311 --> 00:37:40,350 Speaker 3: had no idea who was going to benefit. So that 685 00:37:40,671 --> 00:37:43,391 Speaker 3: I'm very grateful for and I can live with myself. 686 00:37:43,511 --> 00:37:47,910 Speaker 3: And yeah, I couldn't do it over. I mean, and 687 00:37:48,230 --> 00:37:51,350 Speaker 3: if I could do it over, many people say, boy, 688 00:37:51,391 --> 00:37:54,230 Speaker 3: if you could wave a wand and it never had 689 00:37:54,230 --> 00:37:58,830 Speaker 3: to happen to you, would you do it? And you know, 690 00:37:58,871 --> 00:38:04,111 Speaker 3: it's not the hallmark of my greatest and most fun 691 00:38:04,230 --> 00:38:09,270 Speaker 3: times by any stretch of the imagination. But I'm so 692 00:38:09,351 --> 00:38:11,631 Speaker 3: grateful and all the world that kind of it fell 693 00:38:11,750 --> 00:38:13,911 Speaker 3: on me. And I'm grateful that I had a chance 694 00:38:13,991 --> 00:38:19,591 Speaker 3: to be honorable in my actions. And so if someone 695 00:38:19,671 --> 00:38:21,391 Speaker 3: could waive a match, you wine take it away, I 696 00:38:21,391 --> 00:38:22,351 Speaker 3: wouldn't let them. 697 00:38:22,831 --> 00:38:23,790 Speaker 1: Why are you grateful for it? 698 00:38:24,750 --> 00:38:27,671 Speaker 3: I'm just grateful that I was, you know, in a 699 00:38:27,671 --> 00:38:29,911 Speaker 3: spiritual sense, because I'm Christian. You know that maybe in 700 00:38:29,951 --> 00:38:32,071 Speaker 3: all the earth thought I got chosen to handle that. 701 00:38:32,750 --> 00:38:35,710 Speaker 3: I'm grateful. I'm grateful that I feel like I was 702 00:38:35,871 --> 00:38:38,471 Speaker 3: found worthy. There would be those who would disagree, and 703 00:38:38,710 --> 00:38:40,671 Speaker 3: they're entitled to their opinion, but I don't know what 704 00:38:40,710 --> 00:38:42,750 Speaker 3: I could have done differently in terms of following the law. 705 00:38:42,951 --> 00:38:49,471 Speaker 1: Yep, I think that's everything. I think we got it great. 706 00:38:50,071 --> 00:38:52,511 Speaker 3: I thought you know, I told you and you pushed me. 707 00:38:52,631 --> 00:38:56,990 Speaker 3: I told you I didn't remember these catchy feeling feeling stuff. 708 00:38:57,031 --> 00:38:57,591 Speaker 3: I don't remember. 709 00:38:57,631 --> 00:39:00,391 Speaker 1: It's all right. That was Catherine Harris, Florida Secretary of 710 00:39:00,391 --> 00:39:02,991 Speaker 1: State during the two thousand recount. And that's it for 711 00:39:03,071 --> 00:39:09,431 Speaker 1: this bonus episode. Fiasco Bush v. Gore is produced by 712 00:39:09,471 --> 00:39:13,551 Speaker 1: Prologue and distributed by Pushkin Industries. The show is produced 713 00:39:13,551 --> 00:39:17,831 Speaker 1: by Madelin kaplan Ulla Culpa, Andrew Parsons and me Leon Nafak. 714 00:39:18,351 --> 00:39:21,751 Speaker 1: We had additional editorial support from Lisa Chase and Daniel Riley. 715 00:39:22,631 --> 00:39:24,311 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.