WEBVTT - Can Course Design Change Golf Culture? 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.520 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:04.920 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.960 And when I find my ball in a brid Egg 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:11.880 Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Friday, fridagg Bride Egg Lie, 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:13.320 I'm about ready to run off. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:13.680 Of the huff. 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:38.000 Hello, and welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. My name 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:41.480 is Garrett Morrison, and today we ask whether golf architecture 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:45.440 can help change the culture of the game. Tackling this 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:49.400 question with me is Christine Fraser. Christine is a Canadian 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.760 golf architect who has worked with Martin Houghtree on courses 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:56.160 like the Toronto Golf Club, La Hinch in Ireland and 0:00:56.400 --> 0:01:00.440 Royal Birkdale and Sunningdale in England. More recently, she has 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:04.160 teamed up with fellow Canadian architect Jeff Mingay on a 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:09.200 long term renovation at Beaconsfield Golf Club near Montreal. Christine 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:13.959 offers a really fresh and necessary perspective, and not just 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:17.000 because she's one of the few women in the industry, 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:19.720 though it certainly has to do with that. It's also 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:22.720 because she has put a lot of thought into the 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:27.240 ways that design can promote a more inclusive environment at 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:30.280 golf courses. This is something we don't talk about very 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:33.280 often because we get caught up in topics like routing 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:37.080 and strategy and esthetics and so on. But golf courses 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:41.160 are not just artworks, and they're not just fields of play. 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:44.520 They also have a social function. They have an influence 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:47.840 on who gets to play and enjoy the game, and 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:52.080 it's important. I think that that influence is a healthy one. 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.280 So that's what we're exploring today, and let's get to it. 0:01:55.600 --> 0:02:03.920 Here is Christine fraid. So you are in Sweden right now? 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:04.920 What are you up to? 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:09.840 Yes, I'm in Sweden. No, it's strictly pleasure. We're here 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:13.399 visiting family, So having a little week to ourselves and 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:15.600 enjoying the nice, long sunny days. 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:17.639 Awesome. Are you playing any golf? 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:19.480 I did not bring my golf clubs. 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:20.400 Good for you. 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:23.080 Yeah, I need it every once in a while. I 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:24.919 think about golf way too often, so this is a 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:25.560 nice break. 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:28.720 I totally assume that you were there on a job, 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:32.120 but it's good to hear that there is some leisure 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:33.160 in your life as well. 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:35.799 Yes, yeah, I'm pretty good at balance that way. 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:40.960 So my understanding, Christine is that your introduction to golf 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:45.160 came at a course that your grandparents built in nineteen 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:49.720 seventy six called Camden Bray's Golf and Country Club. Could 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:50.600 you tell me that story. 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:54.600 I can. It's so interesting and fascinating to me, especially 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:56.680 now in the line of work that I'm in, that 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:02.400 my grandparents who really knew nothing thing about owning or 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.240 operating or designing or building a golf club or able 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:08.600 to do that. So they bought a piece of architecture, 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:13.400 sorry agricultural land to the east of Toronto and just 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:15.880 decided that that's what they wanted to do because they 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:21.000 imagined a lifestyle of working hard during the golfing months 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:23.040 and then having a few months off in the winter 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:26.280 would suit them. And it's still in the family today, 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:29.200 and that's where I grew up, and my mom made 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:31.360 her career there and my uncles did as well, And 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:34.920 so that's my introduction to golf. And I was really 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:39.360 able to get to know all aspects of how golf 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:43.400 course functions, from the business side of things to the 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:45.800 agronomic side of things. So it was a really really 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:50.280 impressive introduction and privileged introduction to golf. 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:53.240 How would you describe the course itself. 0:03:54.600 --> 0:04:00.360 It's certainly not on any top tens, but it's it's 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.160 quite unique in the sense I have so much admiration 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:06.360 for my grandfather because his vision, which is he was 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.920 ahead of his time. There there aren't any bunkers. The 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:13.680 only things that are irrigated are the teas and the greens. 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:17.800 So it's a really minimal impact type golf course in 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:22.440 terms of the consumption and in terms of playability. So 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.440 it's just a community golf course. There's something special about it. 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:29.000 Anyone can play, the green fees are really reasonable, no 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:33.000 restrictions on time, and and there's a lot to be 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:36.200 said about that type of accessible golf course that I 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:40.320 think has influenced the way that I envision golf. 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:43.800 Yeah, I mean that that kind of stuff is more 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:46.920 important in a lot of ways than great architecture. 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:52.560 I think so. And if you value accessibility and inclusive inclusivity, 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:56.480 then there's a lot to be learned from this type 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:57.680 of property. 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:01.400 So when you were growing up up, were there any 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:07.200 particular aspects of the operations of that course that you 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:10.520 were really interested in or was it all just kind 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:12.480 of like, you know, this is what my family is doing, 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:12.880 This is. 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:17.719 Boring you know, it was Originally it was the latter, 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:21.680 And I think as I was more exposed to different 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:25.240 types of golf courses and different models of golf courses 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:30.279 and memberships, I really became quite interested in and how 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:34.200 a golf course can integrate into the community, and how 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:38.440 people react to the golf course, and how a golf 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:43.040 course can really be this medium to connect people. And 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:46.039 so that's what I found most curious and most interesting 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:48.640 is how people engage on a golf course. 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:51.840 How would you describe that? What does it mean? How 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:53.640 people engage on a golf course. 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:58.599 It's something that I think about a lot, and to me, 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:02.520 I mean, I think, I think I got into golf 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:08.359 architecture not because I have any revolutionary ideas about design 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:13.320 theory or design philosophy, but just because I'm so fascinated 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:17.320 on human interaction and and it's just happened to be 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:22.880 the medium that I chose to facilitate that. And and 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.720 the best I find the best architectures. That is, when 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:31.440 you don't realize how impactful the round was because it 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:34.400 was so memorable, or because there was a particular conversation 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:38.440 that was so valuable or vulnerable, and it has to 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:41.919 do with the things that aren't necessarily written down in 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.920 the golf architecture books. It has to do with the 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:48.839 way that the wind was blowing, or the walk between 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:52.719 certain holes allowed you to have a continuation of a conversation. 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:57.120 Nothing that's so tangible, which is which is why perhaps 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:01.279 the creativity side of things that I joy allows me 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:05.040 to do architecture just kind of get into the more 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:06.719 abstract elements of design. 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:09.720 Yeah, I would. I would imagine this has been discussed 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:14.440 in architectural circles outside of golf a lot. I don't 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.480 necessarily know much about it, but there's a way that 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:21.600 you can approach architecture as a purely esthetic thing. You 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:25.160 get obsessed with the visuals and you know the details 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:27.720 of that, or you can approach it through the lens 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:32.160 of the human and how humans might interact with what 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:36.400 you build. And it sounds like that is what you're 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:37.600 most interested in. 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:42.360 That's exactly it. And I have a master's in landscape architecture, 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:46.240 and we always we always were talking about the connection 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:50.160 between whatever you're designing and the person who's using it, 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:54.520 and how people move through it and walk on it 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:58.840 and and feel it and touch it, and how you 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:01.800 are picking up your tea off the ground and you're 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.800 touching the ground. Is this like literal? Just these small 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:08.640 interactions you have with the thing that you're designing and 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:10.400 how that impacts you when you walk away. 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:12.920 Does your family still run the course? 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:14.480 They do? They do. 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:18.480 So who's who's there now? Like and are what are 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:22.160 their roles? Is there a general manager and a superintendent 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:22.800 and stuff like that. 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.920 Typically it was my mother was in charge of the accounts, 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:30.000 later gone into a bit of the pro shop gig. 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.520 My uncle is the bar and restaurant, and then my 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:35.800 other uncle is outside on the grounds. So it was 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:39.439 a full family business. And my mom's recently retired and 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:43.840 she's busier than ever. As that sometimes goes. Oh yeah, 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:46.160 but my two uncles are still there every day. 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:50.560 Oh that's fun, all right. So you have worked for 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:55.560 Martin Haughtrey, the famous English architect for several years now 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:59.920 on projects in Europe as well as in Canada. One 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:03.840 course that immediately jumps out to me on your resume 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.920 with Hatre is La Hinch Golf Club in Ireland, one 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.560 of the great links courses in the world. Old Tom 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:14.319 Morris design renovated by Alistair Mackenzie in the late twenties. 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:18.079 I'm fascinated by the course, but I have never been there, 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:22.800 so I'm curious what most impressed you about La Hinch 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:23.560 in your time there. 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:26.840 I think we had alluded to it earlier, but it's 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:31.959 this fascinating connection between community and golf is what really 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:38.240 inspired me about La Hine. There's really no distinguishing where 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:40.640 the golf course starts and where it ends. It's just 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:44.520 this small community who allows you to walk on the 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:47.760 golf course, to access the beach and walk to the 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:50.079 bar and between nine's and come back and play. And 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:54.600 apart from the architecture, which is some of the best 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.200 in the world, it is that special thing that you 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:00.520 can't recreate that Lan Hinge has. This 's going to 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:04.640 say quat of community engagement and interaction that made the 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:09.680 Hinge so special to me, And apart from apart from 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:13.199 the golf, it's just the Irish have this really great 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:16.520 way of making you feel like you've been friends for 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:20.800 your entire life. This this element of hospitality and kindness 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:24.920 and generosity that again creates this golfing experience that makes 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:27.240 you want to come back and makes you say, wow, 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:29.000 that was life changing. 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.680 You said that it can't be recreated, and I believe 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:36.000 that because that course has been around for a long 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:39.720 time and so it has had a long time to 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:43.400 establish a unique relationship with its community. But given that 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:46.800 you're an architect, do you think about how that might 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:49.760 be recreated at say, like a brand new course. How 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:54.280 do you create that what has been generated through history 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:56.440 at La Hinch? How do you just sort of summon 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:57.839 that at a new place. 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:02.120 Yeah, that's a great question and something that I think 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:04.839 about a lot is how do we make people feel 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:09.320 welcome and how do we invite them in without making 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:14.280 them feel like it's a business transaction. And if I 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:16.680 were to stick in my lane in architecture, that's the 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:21.040 kind of constant problem that I'm trying to solve of 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:25.240 how do we use architecture to make people, particularly in 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:29.120 my case, marginalize people feel welcome and feel like they 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:31.160 can take up space in the golf course and feel 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:33.400 valued to the point where they want to come back 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:36.839 and play again. And that's the very basic goal that 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.160 I pursue. 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:44.079 So at Lahinch, what kind of work were you specifically 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:44.640 there to do? 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:49.680 So we did a little short game facility across the road, 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:52.960 so it's about a one hundred and twenty yard range 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:55.959 just to kind of a teaching facility, warm up facility. 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:59.839 And then additionally to that, we did some lot of 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:04.600 cations for the twenty nineteen Irish Open, which involves some 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:08.000 new bactis and a little bit of fairway tweaking, some 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:14.200 bunker work. But places like Lahinch out they're always looking 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:19.240 to become better, and so I was there many times 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.520 a year throughout my tenure with Hawtrey and just always 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:24.760 kind of picking away at it making it better, little 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:26.679 things here and there. So there was a lot of 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:30.920 small projects that we did throughout the course of five years. 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.360 It seems to me that a short game facility can 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:38.240 be a great way to connect a community with a 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:41.760 golf course. And so in that short game facility that 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:45.559 you designed at La Hinch, what were some of the 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:50.000 big questions that you had to answer in designing it? 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:53.880 Apart from the logistics of the size of the piece 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.720 of the land, which was tight. It's really small. There's 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:01.840 a football field on the other side, so the logistics 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:05.760 of it were quite complex. But things like that are 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:09.360 often quite a difficult to sell to some people because 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:12.319 a lot of people imagine that if you can't hit 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:17.040 a driver, then what's the point And the point the 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:21.720 point was to allow and so I'm always just going 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.800 back to this. It's just to allow people some time 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:28.319 before their round to connect with each other before they play, 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:33.079 and to introduce themselves and to have an icebreaker conversation 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:35.920 or even just watch other people in the rain hip balls. 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.160 It's a it's a place where you are interacting with 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:43.560 another opportunity to interact with different people while you're warming 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:46.360 up and while while you're getting ready for your game. 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:50.120 Yeah, we were talking about this before we started recording, 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:54.640 about the the design of an entrance to a course 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:59.320 and what that does. And I wonder how you might 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:01.600 think that kind of thing through. I'm not sure how 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:05.679 much control a golf course architect even necessarily has over 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:08.960 the entrance to a course. Sometimes a golf course architect 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:11.720 might have input. Sometimes that stuff is just sort of 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:16.160 preordained or designed by somebody else. But what do you 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:19.880 think makes for an effective entrance into a golf course? 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:22.200 You know, say you're starting in the parking lot and 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.400 then you walk into the golf course, or maybe not 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:27.880 even a parking lot. Maybe it's a train station. Maybe 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.880 it's just the neighborhood. What makes for a nice transition 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:34.160 into the golf space. 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:36.760 I guess I think it depends who you ask, But 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:39.840 for me, it's almost a lack of barriers. And I 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.960 don't think everyone would have that opinion. But it's a 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:46.280 continuation of where you're coming from, or it's an easy 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:48.760 access point from where you're coming from, and a lot 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:53.400 of cases, in particular and more private courses, it's a 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:56.680 really subtle transition from where you are to where you're going, 0:14:56.720 --> 0:15:04.640 so small, discrete signage with nicely concealed entrance gates or 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.680 whatever it may be. It's sort of a subtle transition 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:11.480 that makes it most appealing to me. And I think 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:16.200 the entrance to a golf club is more important than 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:21.080 people playing may often imagine it to be, because if 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:22.920 you don't really notice it, I think it's a good thing. 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:24.960 But if it's a bad entrance, you're going to notice it, 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:29.200 you're going to remember it. There are specific courses, say 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.400 Toronto Golf Club for example, or even wood Hill in Minnesota, 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:38.840 these entrances that wind you through the golf course before 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.920 you get to the clubhouse, so you have the opportunity 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:45.520 to get some sneak peaks at what's to come, and 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:49.560 it's a really nice temptation and tease for what's to 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.160 come later in the day, and you're able to have 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:55.560 this pre introduction to the golf course that's really appealing 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:56.080 to people. 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:59.240 Yeah, I like that. It puts me in mind of 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:06.160 Tampo in California. I'm not sure to what degree that 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:12.040 entrance was designed by the Olmsteds, because the Olmsteds did 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:17.040 the master plan for the entire community, but certainly there 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:20.920 is You're driving in and you see most of the 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:25.200 front nine really before you get to the clubhouse, and 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.680 so you get these wonderful kind of flashes of great 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:32.960 crazy greens and bunkers before you actually get to the 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.520 place where you're checking in and starting to play golf, 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:40.480 and it does kind of transition you into golf in 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:41.320 a great way. 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.560 The anticipation that you have is building, and the excitement 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:47.520 is mounting, and it's just it's wonderful, all right. 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:50.160 So I'd like to get into our main topic here, 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:53.400 which is the ways that golf course design can change 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.320 the culture of golf. This is something that you talk 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.320 about quite a bit and so I guess the first 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:05.240 question I'd have is what are the main things about 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:09.560 golf culture that you would like to see change. I'm 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:12.760 sure we all have our individual things, but just from 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:15.800 your perspective, what are the things that are most in 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:16.800 need of addressing. 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:22.560 Yeah. I've been around golf for most of my life 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:26.840 and I am not the target market. I am not 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.840 the audience that golf was built for. And I often 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:33.320 feel that golf does not love me as much as 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:36.760 I love love it, so that there's this constant sort 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:40.840 of tension between traditional golf culture and where I fit 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:46.160 into that as a woman, And I imagine that if 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:49.919 I feel that way, other people might feel similar to 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:56.560 that as well. And so it's this idea of addressing 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:01.680 how do we address a class is you, a gender issue, 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:08.480 a race issue that golf inevitably has, And the method 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:10.720 that I know how to do that is through design, 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:14.320 and if we can simplify it, it's just how do 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:17.800 we make these marginalized groups feel welcome and feel invited 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.880 to the game so that they want to come back 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:23.280 and they want their children to play, and they feel 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:27.320 like it's a safe and conducive environment to spending their 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:31.960 time and I don't have the answer to that yet. 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:36.600 It's a process, it's a pursuit. But I think it's 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:40.000 interesting and I think I'm always considering that. And if 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:42.160 we ask these people what they want and what they 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:44.240 want their experience to look like on a golf course, 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.679 we might find some interesting answers. It's just that idea 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.359 of inviting them to speak and have a say and 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:52.119 take up space on the golf course. 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:55.439 So for a lot of people might be obvious that 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:57.760 these are things that golf needs to change, at least 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:01.040 I hope that's obvious to people, but it might not 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.960 be obvious how golf course design can help change them. Right, 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:09.320 So why don't we just kind of go through things 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:11.119 one at a time. You know, we don't have to 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:13.600 tackle the entire problem all at once. We can just 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:18.040 talk about some specific design elements that might help a 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:21.320 little bit. And so, what is one specific element that 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:25.680 a golf course architect can incorporate into a course that 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:29.679 you think would make the culture of that course more inclusive? 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:33.080 Yeah, I think we can. We can go from tee 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:36.639 to green and find a lot of problems with golf 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:41.520 course design and how their arch istracturally structured for anyone 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:45.080 with adoptive needs. We see a lot of stairs on 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.439 golf courses. We see a lot of steep slopes, We 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:51.720 see a lot of curved cart paths that are all 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:57.960 barriers for people with mobility issues that visual visual needs 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:00.800 to come in and feel like they were considered it, 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.119 and they feel like they were they belong in the 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:08.320 golf course, and and to give them this equitable experience 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:13.560 of planning the golf course, we need to consider the slopes, 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:18.240 climbing up to tea boxes and and just really ask 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:20.200 them what they need on a golf course to be 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:23.480 able to play it and enjoy themselves and be challenged 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:27.560 appropriately and have fun and have a similar experience to 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:31.439 someone who who plays golf from the tips and so 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:35.239 looking at it through that lens, there's a lot that 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:39.240 golf courses can improve upon. We have safety standards for 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:44.040 the clubhouse for adaptive needs, but you step outside and 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:46.200 the golf course is something entirely different. 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:48.720 Those are laws right with the clubhouse. There are a 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:51.280 lot of laws that might govern that, but not as 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:52.879 much with the golf course, which is a bit of 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:53.560 a mystery to me. 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:58.160 Absolutely, And you know, we don't necessarily have to recognize 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:01.600 these things unless we ask so why not see what 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:05.879 this particular group of people require on a golf course. 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:09.720 And I don't think anything that they're asking for would 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:15.000 negatively affect the experience of anyone else who's playing the course. 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:17.720 So it's just an enhancement of a course that you 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.560 already have to invite more people into play. 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:27.359 And this is a matter of eliminating these kind of sudden, 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:32.200 these abrupt jumps from one grade to another, I mean, 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:35.520 just to kind of get right down to it. Having 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:40.359 stairs instead of just a gradual slope is an issue 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:43.439 for a lot of people. And I'd also imagine that 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:47.040 cart path design factors into this as well. And this 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:49.160 gets into a bit of a touchy issue because cart 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:53.840 paths can affect the architectural integrity of a course, no doubt, 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:58.120 but they need to be there for a certain group 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:00.840 of people. And so I want or to you, what 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:03.720 what does a well designed cart path look like? What 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:04.919 are the criteria for that? 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:09.359 Yeah, it's a really it's a really interesting idea because 0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:11.800 there's a balance there, and we want to have a 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:14.320 cart path as much as possible to allow people with 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:17.359 adaptive and mobility needs to be able to use the 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:23.399 golf course whenever they want. So Visually, we have to 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:25.600 be conscious of how how much the cart path is 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:29.119 coming into our view and into play. And secondly we 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:32.080 don't want it too far away so that these people 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:34.399 have are making you know, twice as long as a 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:35.919 trip to get to the middle of the fairway as 0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:40.560 everyone else. So there's a balance there. Ideally there would 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:42.560 be cart paths that we don't see that are still 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:46.280 functioning for anyone who needs them. It's hard, it's tough, 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:49.560 it's definitely tough, and maybe there's a balance where there 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:52.840 are specific holes where we need car pass because of 0:22:53.960 --> 0:23:00.960 the drainage issues or sloped issues that we can hide. 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:04.800 But additionally to that, we perhaps we can avoid using 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:08.000 curbs on the cart path, even though they're esthetically pleasing. 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:13.520 Curbs don't allow people who are using buggies or solo 0:23:13.600 --> 0:23:15.640 riders to get up onto the faraway when and where 0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:17.560 they want, so it takes them longer to get to 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:19.920 places because of that barrier. 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:25.479 This episode of the Friday Podcast is brought to you 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:29.960 by Club Champion. 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