Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my ball in a brid Egg
Speaker 1: Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Friday, fridagg Bride Egg Lie,
Speaker 1: I'm about ready to run off.
Speaker 2: Of the huff.
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. My name
Speaker 1: is Garrett Morrison, and today we ask whether golf architecture
Speaker 1: can help change the culture of the game. Tackling this
Speaker 1: question with me is Christine Fraser. Christine is a Canadian
Speaker 1: golf architect who has worked with Martin Houghtree on courses
Speaker 1: like the Toronto Golf Club, La Hinch in Ireland and
Speaker 1: Royal Birkdale and Sunningdale in England. More recently, she has
Speaker 1: teamed up with fellow Canadian architect Jeff Mingay on a
Speaker 1: long term renovation at Beaconsfield Golf Club near Montreal. Christine
Speaker 1: offers a really fresh and necessary perspective, and not just
Speaker 1: because she's one of the few women in the industry,
Speaker 1: though it certainly has to do with that. It's also
Speaker 1: because she has put a lot of thought into the
Speaker 1: ways that design can promote a more inclusive environment at
Speaker 1: golf courses. This is something we don't talk about very
Speaker 1: often because we get caught up in topics like routing
Speaker 1: and strategy and esthetics and so on. But golf courses
Speaker 1: are not just artworks, and they're not just fields of play.
Speaker 1: They also have a social function. They have an influence
Speaker 1: on who gets to play and enjoy the game, and
Speaker 1: it's important. I think that that influence is a healthy one.
Speaker 1: So that's what we're exploring today, and let's get to it.
Speaker 1: Here is Christine fraid. So you are in Sweden right now?
Speaker 1: What are you up to?
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm in Sweden. No, it's strictly pleasure. We're here
Speaker 2: visiting family, So having a little week to ourselves and
Speaker 2: enjoying the nice, long sunny days.
Speaker 1: Awesome. Are you playing any golf?
Speaker 2: I did not bring my golf clubs.
Speaker 1: Good for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I need it every once in a while. I
Speaker 2: think about golf way too often, so this is a
Speaker 2: nice break.
Speaker 1: I totally assume that you were there on a job,
Speaker 1: but it's good to hear that there is some leisure
Speaker 1: in your life as well.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I'm pretty good at balance that way.
Speaker 1: So my understanding, Christine is that your introduction to golf
Speaker 1: came at a course that your grandparents built in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy six called Camden Bray's Golf and Country Club. Could
Speaker 1: you tell me that story.
Speaker 2: I can. It's so interesting and fascinating to me, especially
Speaker 2: now in the line of work that I'm in, that
Speaker 2: my grandparents who really knew nothing thing about owning or
Speaker 2: operating or designing or building a golf club or able
Speaker 2: to do that. So they bought a piece of architecture,
Speaker 2: sorry agricultural land to the east of Toronto and just
Speaker 2: decided that that's what they wanted to do because they
Speaker 2: imagined a lifestyle of working hard during the golfing months
Speaker 2: and then having a few months off in the winter
Speaker 2: would suit them. And it's still in the family today,
Speaker 2: and that's where I grew up, and my mom made
Speaker 2: her career there and my uncles did as well, And
Speaker 2: so that's my introduction to golf. And I was really
Speaker 2: able to get to know all aspects of how golf
Speaker 2: course functions, from the business side of things to the
Speaker 2: agronomic side of things. So it was a really really
Speaker 2: impressive introduction and privileged introduction to golf.
Speaker 1: How would you describe the course itself.
Speaker 2: It's certainly not on any top tens, but it's it's
Speaker 2: quite unique in the sense I have so much admiration
Speaker 2: for my grandfather because his vision, which is he was
Speaker 2: ahead of his time. There there aren't any bunkers. The
Speaker 2: only things that are irrigated are the teas and the greens.
Speaker 2: So it's a really minimal impact type golf course in
Speaker 2: terms of the consumption and in terms of playability. So
Speaker 2: it's just a community golf course. There's something special about it.
Speaker 2: Anyone can play, the green fees are really reasonable, no
Speaker 2: restrictions on time, and and there's a lot to be
Speaker 2: said about that type of accessible golf course that I
Speaker 2: think has influenced the way that I envision golf.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that that kind of stuff is more
Speaker 1: important in a lot of ways than great architecture.
Speaker 2: I think so. And if you value accessibility and inclusive inclusivity,
Speaker 2: then there's a lot to be learned from this type
Speaker 2: of property.
Speaker 1: So when you were growing up up, were there any
Speaker 1: particular aspects of the operations of that course that you
Speaker 1: were really interested in or was it all just kind
Speaker 1: of like, you know, this is what my family is doing,
Speaker 1: This is.
Speaker 2: Boring you know, it was Originally it was the latter,
Speaker 2: And I think as I was more exposed to different
Speaker 2: types of golf courses and different models of golf courses
Speaker 2: and memberships, I really became quite interested in and how
Speaker 2: a golf course can integrate into the community, and how
Speaker 2: people react to the golf course, and how a golf
Speaker 2: course can really be this medium to connect people. And
Speaker 2: so that's what I found most curious and most interesting
Speaker 2: is how people engage on a golf course.
Speaker 1: How would you describe that? What does it mean? How
Speaker 1: people engage on a golf course.
Speaker 2: It's something that I think about a lot, and to me,
Speaker 2: I mean, I think, I think I got into golf
Speaker 2: architecture not because I have any revolutionary ideas about design
Speaker 2: theory or design philosophy, but just because I'm so fascinated
Speaker 2: on human interaction and and it's just happened to be
Speaker 2: the medium that I chose to facilitate that. And and
Speaker 2: the best I find the best architectures. That is, when
Speaker 2: you don't realize how impactful the round was because it
Speaker 2: was so memorable, or because there was a particular conversation
Speaker 2: that was so valuable or vulnerable, and it has to
Speaker 2: do with the things that aren't necessarily written down in
Speaker 2: the golf architecture books. It has to do with the
Speaker 2: way that the wind was blowing, or the walk between
Speaker 2: certain holes allowed you to have a continuation of a conversation.
Speaker 2: Nothing that's so tangible, which is which is why perhaps
Speaker 2: the creativity side of things that I joy allows me
Speaker 2: to do architecture just kind of get into the more
Speaker 2: abstract elements of design.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would. I would imagine this has been discussed
Speaker 1: in architectural circles outside of golf a lot. I don't
Speaker 1: necessarily know much about it, but there's a way that
Speaker 1: you can approach architecture as a purely esthetic thing. You
Speaker 1: get obsessed with the visuals and you know the details
Speaker 1: of that, or you can approach it through the lens
Speaker 1: of the human and how humans might interact with what
Speaker 1: you build. And it sounds like that is what you're
Speaker 1: most interested in.
Speaker 2: That's exactly it. And I have a master's in landscape architecture,
Speaker 2: and we always we always were talking about the connection
Speaker 2: between whatever you're designing and the person who's using it,
Speaker 2: and how people move through it and walk on it
Speaker 2: and and feel it and touch it, and how you
Speaker 2: are picking up your tea off the ground and you're
Speaker 2: touching the ground. Is this like literal? Just these small
Speaker 2: interactions you have with the thing that you're designing and
Speaker 2: how that impacts you when you walk away.
Speaker 1: Does your family still run the course?
Speaker 2: They do? They do.
Speaker 1: So who's who's there now? Like and are what are
Speaker 1: their roles? Is there a general manager and a superintendent
Speaker 1: and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: Typically it was my mother was in charge of the accounts,
Speaker 2: later gone into a bit of the pro shop gig.
Speaker 2: My uncle is the bar and restaurant, and then my
Speaker 2: other uncle is outside on the grounds. So it was
Speaker 2: a full family business. And my mom's recently retired and
Speaker 2: she's busier than ever. As that sometimes goes. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: but my two uncles are still there every day.
Speaker 1: Oh that's fun, all right. So you have worked for
Speaker 1: Martin Haughtrey, the famous English architect for several years now
Speaker 1: on projects in Europe as well as in Canada. One
Speaker 1: course that immediately jumps out to me on your resume
Speaker 1: with Hatre is La Hinch Golf Club in Ireland, one
Speaker 1: of the great links courses in the world. Old Tom
Speaker 1: Morris design renovated by Alistair Mackenzie in the late twenties.
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by the course, but I have never been there,
Speaker 1: so I'm curious what most impressed you about La Hinch
Speaker 1: in your time there.
Speaker 2: I think we had alluded to it earlier, but it's
Speaker 2: this fascinating connection between community and golf is what really
Speaker 2: inspired me about La Hine. There's really no distinguishing where
Speaker 2: the golf course starts and where it ends. It's just
Speaker 2: this small community who allows you to walk on the
Speaker 2: golf course, to access the beach and walk to the
Speaker 2: bar and between nine's and come back and play. And
Speaker 2: apart from the architecture, which is some of the best
Speaker 2: in the world, it is that special thing that you
Speaker 2: can't recreate that Lan Hinge has. This 's going to
Speaker 2: say quat of community engagement and interaction that made the
Speaker 2: Hinge so special to me, And apart from apart from
Speaker 2: the golf, it's just the Irish have this really great
Speaker 2: way of making you feel like you've been friends for
Speaker 2: your entire life. This this element of hospitality and kindness
Speaker 2: and generosity that again creates this golfing experience that makes
Speaker 2: you want to come back and makes you say, wow,
Speaker 2: that was life changing.
Speaker 1: You said that it can't be recreated, and I believe
Speaker 1: that because that course has been around for a long
Speaker 1: time and so it has had a long time to
Speaker 1: establish a unique relationship with its community. But given that
Speaker 1: you're an architect, do you think about how that might
Speaker 1: be recreated at say, like a brand new course. How
Speaker 1: do you create that what has been generated through history
Speaker 1: at La Hinch? How do you just sort of summon
Speaker 1: that at a new place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question and something that I think
Speaker 2: about a lot is how do we make people feel
Speaker 2: welcome and how do we invite them in without making
Speaker 2: them feel like it's a business transaction. And if I
Speaker 2: were to stick in my lane in architecture, that's the
Speaker 2: kind of constant problem that I'm trying to solve of
Speaker 2: how do we use architecture to make people, particularly in
Speaker 2: my case, marginalize people feel welcome and feel like they
Speaker 2: can take up space in the golf course and feel
Speaker 2: valued to the point where they want to come back
Speaker 2: and play again. And that's the very basic goal that
Speaker 2: I pursue.
Speaker 1: So at Lahinch, what kind of work were you specifically
Speaker 1: there to do?
Speaker 2: So we did a little short game facility across the road,
Speaker 2: so it's about a one hundred and twenty yard range
Speaker 2: just to kind of a teaching facility, warm up facility.
Speaker 2: And then additionally to that, we did some lot of
Speaker 2: cations for the twenty nineteen Irish Open, which involves some
Speaker 2: new bactis and a little bit of fairway tweaking, some
Speaker 2: bunker work. But places like Lahinch out they're always looking
Speaker 2: to become better, and so I was there many times
Speaker 2: a year throughout my tenure with Hawtrey and just always
Speaker 2: kind of picking away at it making it better, little
Speaker 2: things here and there. So there was a lot of
Speaker 2: small projects that we did throughout the course of five years.
Speaker 1: It seems to me that a short game facility can
Speaker 1: be a great way to connect a community with a
Speaker 1: golf course. And so in that short game facility that
Speaker 1: you designed at La Hinch, what were some of the
Speaker 1: big questions that you had to answer in designing it?
Speaker 2: Apart from the logistics of the size of the piece
Speaker 2: of the land, which was tight. It's really small. There's
Speaker 2: a football field on the other side, so the logistics
Speaker 2: of it were quite complex. But things like that are
Speaker 2: often quite a difficult to sell to some people because
Speaker 2: a lot of people imagine that if you can't hit
Speaker 2: a driver, then what's the point And the point the
Speaker 2: point was to allow and so I'm always just going
Speaker 2: back to this. It's just to allow people some time
Speaker 2: before their round to connect with each other before they play,
Speaker 2: and to introduce themselves and to have an icebreaker conversation
Speaker 2: or even just watch other people in the rain hip balls.
Speaker 2: It's a it's a place where you are interacting with
Speaker 2: another opportunity to interact with different people while you're warming
Speaker 2: up and while while you're getting ready for your game.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were talking about this before we started recording,
Speaker 1: about the the design of an entrance to a course
Speaker 1: and what that does. And I wonder how you might
Speaker 1: think that kind of thing through. I'm not sure how
Speaker 1: much control a golf course architect even necessarily has over
Speaker 1: the entrance to a course. Sometimes a golf course architect
Speaker 1: might have input. Sometimes that stuff is just sort of
Speaker 1: preordained or designed by somebody else. But what do you
Speaker 1: think makes for an effective entrance into a golf course?
Speaker 1: You know, say you're starting in the parking lot and
Speaker 1: then you walk into the golf course, or maybe not
Speaker 1: even a parking lot. Maybe it's a train station. Maybe
Speaker 1: it's just the neighborhood. What makes for a nice transition
Speaker 1: into the golf space.
Speaker 2: I guess I think it depends who you ask, But
Speaker 2: for me, it's almost a lack of barriers. And I
Speaker 2: don't think everyone would have that opinion. But it's a
Speaker 2: continuation of where you're coming from, or it's an easy
Speaker 2: access point from where you're coming from, and a lot
Speaker 2: of cases, in particular and more private courses, it's a
Speaker 2: really subtle transition from where you are to where you're going,
Speaker 2: so small, discrete signage with nicely concealed entrance gates or
Speaker 2: whatever it may be. It's sort of a subtle transition
Speaker 2: that makes it most appealing to me. And I think
Speaker 2: the entrance to a golf club is more important than
Speaker 2: people playing may often imagine it to be, because if
Speaker 2: you don't really notice it, I think it's a good thing.
Speaker 2: But if it's a bad entrance, you're going to notice it,
Speaker 2: you're going to remember it. There are specific courses, say
Speaker 2: Toronto Golf Club for example, or even wood Hill in Minnesota,
Speaker 2: these entrances that wind you through the golf course before
Speaker 2: you get to the clubhouse, so you have the opportunity
Speaker 2: to get some sneak peaks at what's to come, and
Speaker 2: it's a really nice temptation and tease for what's to
Speaker 2: come later in the day, and you're able to have
Speaker 2: this pre introduction to the golf course that's really appealing
Speaker 2: to people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that. It puts me in mind of
Speaker 1: Tampo in California. I'm not sure to what degree that
Speaker 1: entrance was designed by the Olmsteds, because the Olmsteds did
Speaker 1: the master plan for the entire community, but certainly there
Speaker 1: is You're driving in and you see most of the
Speaker 1: front nine really before you get to the clubhouse, and
Speaker 1: so you get these wonderful kind of flashes of great
Speaker 1: crazy greens and bunkers before you actually get to the
Speaker 1: place where you're checking in and starting to play golf,
Speaker 1: and it does kind of transition you into golf in
Speaker 1: a great way.
Speaker 2: The anticipation that you have is building, and the excitement
Speaker 2: is mounting, and it's just it's wonderful, all right.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to get into our main topic here,
Speaker 1: which is the ways that golf course design can change
Speaker 1: the culture of golf. This is something that you talk
Speaker 1: about quite a bit and so I guess the first
Speaker 1: question I'd have is what are the main things about
Speaker 1: golf culture that you would like to see change. I'm
Speaker 1: sure we all have our individual things, but just from
Speaker 1: your perspective, what are the things that are most in
Speaker 1: need of addressing.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I've been around golf for most of my life
Speaker 2: and I am not the target market. I am not
Speaker 2: the audience that golf was built for. And I often
Speaker 2: feel that golf does not love me as much as
Speaker 2: I love love it, so that there's this constant sort
Speaker 2: of tension between traditional golf culture and where I fit
Speaker 2: into that as a woman, And I imagine that if
Speaker 2: I feel that way, other people might feel similar to
Speaker 2: that as well. And so it's this idea of addressing
Speaker 2: how do we address a class is you, a gender issue,
Speaker 2: a race issue that golf inevitably has, And the method
Speaker 2: that I know how to do that is through design,
Speaker 2: and if we can simplify it, it's just how do
Speaker 2: we make these marginalized groups feel welcome and feel invited
Speaker 2: to the game so that they want to come back
Speaker 2: and they want their children to play, and they feel
Speaker 2: like it's a safe and conducive environment to spending their
Speaker 2: time and I don't have the answer to that yet.
Speaker 2: It's a process, it's a pursuit. But I think it's
Speaker 2: interesting and I think I'm always considering that. And if
Speaker 2: we ask these people what they want and what they
Speaker 2: want their experience to look like on a golf course,
Speaker 2: we might find some interesting answers. It's just that idea
Speaker 2: of inviting them to speak and have a say and
Speaker 2: take up space on the golf course.
Speaker 1: So for a lot of people might be obvious that
Speaker 1: these are things that golf needs to change, at least
Speaker 1: I hope that's obvious to people, but it might not
Speaker 1: be obvious how golf course design can help change them. Right,
Speaker 1: So why don't we just kind of go through things
Speaker 1: one at a time. You know, we don't have to
Speaker 1: tackle the entire problem all at once. We can just
Speaker 1: talk about some specific design elements that might help a
Speaker 1: little bit. And so, what is one specific element that
Speaker 1: a golf course architect can incorporate into a course that
Speaker 1: you think would make the culture of that course more inclusive?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we can. We can go from tee
Speaker 2: to green and find a lot of problems with golf
Speaker 2: course design and how their arch istracturally structured for anyone
Speaker 2: with adoptive needs. We see a lot of stairs on
Speaker 2: golf courses. We see a lot of steep slopes, We
Speaker 2: see a lot of curved cart paths that are all
Speaker 2: barriers for people with mobility issues that visual visual needs
Speaker 2: to come in and feel like they were considered it,
Speaker 2: and they feel like they were they belong in the
Speaker 2: golf course, and and to give them this equitable experience
Speaker 2: of planning the golf course, we need to consider the slopes,
Speaker 2: climbing up to tea boxes and and just really ask
Speaker 2: them what they need on a golf course to be
Speaker 2: able to play it and enjoy themselves and be challenged
Speaker 2: appropriately and have fun and have a similar experience to
Speaker 2: someone who who plays golf from the tips and so
Speaker 2: looking at it through that lens, there's a lot that
Speaker 2: golf courses can improve upon. We have safety standards for
Speaker 2: the clubhouse for adaptive needs, but you step outside and
Speaker 2: the golf course is something entirely different.
Speaker 1: Those are laws right with the clubhouse. There are a
Speaker 1: lot of laws that might govern that, but not as
Speaker 1: much with the golf course, which is a bit of
Speaker 1: a mystery to me.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And you know, we don't necessarily have to recognize
Speaker 2: these things unless we ask so why not see what
Speaker 2: this particular group of people require on a golf course.
Speaker 2: And I don't think anything that they're asking for would
Speaker 2: negatively affect the experience of anyone else who's playing the course.
Speaker 2: So it's just an enhancement of a course that you
Speaker 2: already have to invite more people into play.
Speaker 1: And this is a matter of eliminating these kind of sudden,
Speaker 1: these abrupt jumps from one grade to another, I mean,
Speaker 1: just to kind of get right down to it. Having
Speaker 1: stairs instead of just a gradual slope is an issue
Speaker 1: for a lot of people. And I'd also imagine that
Speaker 1: cart path design factors into this as well. And this
Speaker 1: gets into a bit of a touchy issue because cart
Speaker 1: paths can affect the architectural integrity of a course, no doubt,
Speaker 1: but they need to be there for a certain group
Speaker 1: of people. And so I want or to you, what
Speaker 1: what does a well designed cart path look like? What
Speaker 1: are the criteria for that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really it's a really interesting idea because
Speaker 2: there's a balance there, and we want to have a
Speaker 2: cart path as much as possible to allow people with
Speaker 2: adaptive and mobility needs to be able to use the
Speaker 2: golf course whenever they want. So Visually, we have to
Speaker 2: be conscious of how how much the cart path is
Speaker 2: coming into our view and into play. And secondly we
Speaker 2: don't want it too far away so that these people
Speaker 2: have are making you know, twice as long as a
Speaker 2: trip to get to the middle of the fairway as
Speaker 2: everyone else. So there's a balance there. Ideally there would
Speaker 2: be cart paths that we don't see that are still
Speaker 2: functioning for anyone who needs them. It's hard, it's tough,
Speaker 2: it's definitely tough, and maybe there's a balance where there
Speaker 2: are specific holes where we need car pass because of
Speaker 2: the drainage issues or sloped issues that we can hide.
Speaker 2: But additionally to that, we perhaps we can avoid using
Speaker 2: curbs on the cart path, even though they're esthetically pleasing.
Speaker 2: Curbs don't allow people who are using buggies or solo
Speaker 2: riders to get up onto the faraway when and where
Speaker 2: they want, so it takes them longer to get to
Speaker 2: places because of that barrier.
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Speaker 1: the episode. Now, let's talk a little bit about tea positions.
Speaker 1: We've discussed this topic before on the podcast. We did
Speaker 1: so with Sarah mass last year, but I think it's
Speaker 1: an endlessly complicated topic. What are the main gas that
Speaker 1: you see with the positioning of teas at golf courses.
Speaker 2: Generally they're pushed to the margins of the golf course,
Speaker 2: and that comes with shade issues from the trees that
Speaker 2: are often lining the teas, or sunlight issues because of
Speaker 2: those trees as well. And the quality of turf just
Speaker 2: is doesn't match any other tea on the golf course.
Speaker 2: It's it's so degraded and worn out that it becomes
Speaker 2: really unpleasant. And and the forward tees are generally the
Speaker 2: last ones to get any financial boosts, so they degrade.
Speaker 1: And they're smaller too, right, which would which would have
Speaker 1: to mean that they'd wear and tear a little faster.
Speaker 2: That's it. That's it. And they're and they're often not level,
Speaker 2: so the places that you're able to put the markers
Speaker 2: are usually in the same spots too often. And so
Speaker 2: again the war is just it just they take a
Speaker 2: beating unlike any of the other teas on the course,
Speaker 2: so that there's a lot of playabilities that come with
Speaker 2: pushing teas to the side of the hole with shade
Speaker 2: and sunlight and airflow and where because.
Speaker 1: Of that, how about the distance of a hole? You know,
Speaker 1: something I see a lot is that the forward tees
Speaker 1: just sort of like ten yards in front of the
Speaker 1: middle ties, which is ridiculous because that's not the spread
Speaker 1: of people's distance. But you know, say you have just
Speaker 1: a regular old four hundred yard par four from the
Speaker 1: back tees on that hole. I know there are considerations
Speaker 1: for how the hole is designed and shaped and things
Speaker 1: like that, but generally, how far forward do you think
Speaker 1: the most forward tees need to be if the back
Speaker 1: tees are at four hundred yards?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, as you said, there are a lot of
Speaker 2: things to consider when choosing the position of a forward tee,
Speaker 2: elevation of the fair way of the tea, of the
Speaker 2: green angle, hazard positioning, all of those things. But generally
Speaker 2: for forward tees, we would say for a part for
Speaker 2: Part four, three hundred and forty yards would be the
Speaker 2: longest we would go. So that's a long part four
Speaker 2: for players playing the forward tees. A long part five
Speaker 2: would be four hundred yards, and a long Part three
Speaker 2: would be one hundred and forty yards, So those three
Speaker 2: one forty three, forty four hundred are pretty general markers
Speaker 2: that we we would use to base a forward T
Speaker 2: program off of. So four hundred yard part four not
Speaker 2: overly long, not drivable, so some are around three twenty
Speaker 2: would feel good to me?
Speaker 1: Gotcha? Okay, So let's talk about some other factors. What
Speaker 1: what are? What is another design element that you think
Speaker 1: can help, you know, kind of change the culture of golf.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I go back to thinking about my
Speaker 2: own experience on the golf course, and it often so
Speaker 2: often stems from the opening interaction you have with the
Speaker 2: pro shop or the starter. Uh and and even before that,
Speaker 2: for me, it's I don't particularly enjoy having to look
Speaker 2: up how many inches my skirt has to be before
Speaker 2: I go and play. Don't particularly like the thought of
Speaker 2: a man deciding that for me. But so there are
Speaker 2: all these these things that women in particular have to
Speaker 2: consider when you enter a golf course anywhere, from from
Speaker 2: what you have to wear to what rooms you're allowed
Speaker 2: to enter and what teas you should play. And then
Speaker 2: interaction with people often dictate how your round is going
Speaker 2: to go. And I don't know how many times this
Speaker 2: starter will just point me to the red teas and
Speaker 2: say the lady's teas are up there, and you know
Speaker 2: that it's problematic. That's a problem. It's assumptive, and it
Speaker 2: doesn't it doesn't do golf traditional golf tradition, any favors.
Speaker 2: And so this, I think it starts from the beginning.
Speaker 2: We have to look at how we're what language we're
Speaker 2: using on the scorecard. Are we referring to the red
Speaker 2: teas or the forward tees as the ladies teas? Are
Speaker 2: we rating the golf course from all of the tea's
Speaker 2: for the women, or just the forward teas and the
Speaker 2: white tea's or the middle te's and it goes on
Speaker 2: from there. Teas are a big one. As we discussed,
Speaker 2: fairway lines are really kind of low hanging fruit if
Speaker 2: I were to audit a golf course on how to
Speaker 2: make it more inclusive and accessible for more people, in
Speaker 2: the sense that it's all about considering people who can't
Speaker 2: consistently get the ball in the air. So of course
Speaker 2: it's women, but it's also juniors, it's also seniors, it's anyone,
Speaker 2: it's beginners, anyone who can can't consistently get the ball
Speaker 2: in the air, how are they navigating the golf course?
Speaker 2: What are they traversing? Are there? Are there many carries,
Speaker 2: water carries or natural waste bunker carries, and so the
Speaker 2: faraway lines come into play in a lot of that.
Speaker 2: So if you have sort of a scalloped faaraway line
Speaker 2: that comes in and out and in and out arbitrarily,
Speaker 2: it's often quite penal to people who can't lift the
Speaker 2: ball out of the rough because you're going from rough
Speaker 2: to rough to rough and it's just a slog. We
Speaker 2: can also look at the entrances to the green, how
Speaker 2: wide they are, and generalizing if you're able to get
Speaker 2: the ball in the air consistently, you're flying it onto
Speaker 2: the green, in particular in North American parkland style golf.
Speaker 2: So widening an approach to a green probably wouldn't have
Speaker 2: too much effect on your game, but it would have
Speaker 2: a really great positive impact for those of us who
Speaker 2: are hitting three woods into par fours.
Speaker 1: Does firmness play into this?
Speaker 2: Oh yes, I love this question. Firm and fast is
Speaker 2: like is the best? The firmer, the faster, the better
Speaker 2: I love it. So, as I mentioned earlier, Camden doesn't
Speaker 2: have irrigated fairways, and maybe I'm super biased because I
Speaker 2: grew up on a course it didn't have irrigation, So
Speaker 2: it just it just allowed me to become such a
Speaker 2: dynamic player because the golf course was so dynamic depending
Speaker 2: on the season and the weather conditions, and so you
Speaker 2: had to be pretty creative with your shots. And I
Speaker 2: think this translates to any golf course that firm and
Speaker 2: fast gives the opportunity for people who needed a little
Speaker 2: bit more yards to get it, and it also challenges
Speaker 2: the better players because there was thinking about angles into
Speaker 2: the green and so having them control their their distance
Speaker 2: so that they can have a more advantageous second shot
Speaker 2: into the green.
Speaker 1: It's a win win, yeah, And you know you're talking
Speaker 1: about Camden Brays. This course is in Canada, which is
Speaker 1: not traditionally thought of as the home of firm and fast,
Speaker 1: but it just shows that firm and fast is not
Speaker 1: just something that you get on the links land. It's
Speaker 1: something that can be developed anywhere. You might just have
Speaker 1: to sacrifice a little bit of what we would normally
Speaker 1: consider to be a well conditioned course, whether that's greenness, lushness,
Speaker 1: a lot of water, et cetera. Et cetera. So you're saying,
Speaker 1: in other words, that firmness can be you know, you
Speaker 1: can get some kind of firmness just about anywhere if
Speaker 1: you have the right approach.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And I think a big element of that
Speaker 2: is sort of educating people on what the repercussions of lush,
Speaker 2: green fair ways and rough is and how that impacts
Speaker 2: the bottom line of the golf course and how it
Speaker 2: impacts your playability of the golf course, and just kind
Speaker 2: of reassessing this golf culture of green is better.
Speaker 1: So this gets into environmental issues sort of, right. The
Speaker 1: maintenance practices obviously are very related to the environmental sustainability
Speaker 1: of a golf course. But I'm curious specifically about where
Speaker 1: you see the intersections between environmental sustainability and the social
Speaker 1: function of a golf course. How might those two meet
Speaker 1: if that makes sense? Does that question make sense?
Speaker 2: Oh, you tell me after I answered it, you think
Speaker 2: I understand.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm totally sure it makes sense to me. Yet
Speaker 1: that's why I ask.
Speaker 2: There's no guarantee that golf is permanent, and there's this
Speaker 2: idea that financial sustainability is related to environmental sustainability, because
Speaker 2: what is valuable to the younger generation will decide where
Speaker 2: they spend their money and how they consume product. And
Speaker 2: should a golf course become too indebted to its water
Speaker 2: consumption or its herbicide use, people will forget about golf
Speaker 2: and put their money elsewhere. And I think, in particular
Speaker 2: these marginalized groups that I'm talking about, environmental sustainability or
Speaker 2: consciousness is top of mind at all times, and so
Speaker 2: for golf to not address that and think about that
Speaker 2: and implement that will be detrimental to the future of golf.
Speaker 1: And you're talking about this as kind of an optics issue,
Speaker 1: which is obviously very important. The reputation of golf environmentally
Speaker 1: is going to be important to its future popularity. But
Speaker 1: it also strikes me that environmental sustainability might affect the
Speaker 1: affordability of golf. Right, the more water you have to use,
Speaker 1: the more expensive your golf course is going to be
Speaker 1: to play, The less people are good, the less you know,
Speaker 1: the fewer kinds of people who are going to be
Speaker 1: able to play the course.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly it. And it goes the other way
Speaker 2: as well, as you just said, is if we're pumping
Speaker 2: all of this money into purchasing water that's inevitably only
Speaker 2: going to become more expensive. Then we are reducing the
Speaker 2: accessibility because our green fees are going way up and
Speaker 2: our membership deser are going way up because the cost
Speaker 2: of maintaining a golf course has increased so much, and
Speaker 2: the climate will dictate. No, the climate won't dictate. We
Speaker 2: will dictate how our golf course is able to change
Speaker 2: and shift with that climate, rather than enforcing what we
Speaker 2: deem as high standard golf course onto the way that
Speaker 2: our climate is going.
Speaker 1: So, what is an example of a course that you
Speaker 1: think really nails the social aspect of design? What comes
Speaker 1: to mind? First?
Speaker 2: When is it park Easy? They nailed it. They've done
Speaker 2: everything so well, And that's a great example of what
Speaker 2: we're speaking of because they used pretty basic golf design
Speaker 2: concept traditional golf concepts to create this experience that is
Speaker 2: socially relevant and valuable and offers a lot of different
Speaker 2: type of people access to golf. They've done such a
Speaker 2: great job with it.
Speaker 1: Anything else come to mind?
Speaker 2: Yes, there's a really cool municipal golf course in Toronto.
Speaker 2: It's called Dentonia Park. It's eighteen holes, they're par three
Speaker 2: and the pro shop is in the subway, so you
Speaker 2: can catch a subway from downtown Toronto from Dundask Square,
Speaker 2: put your clubs on the subway, get off at Victoria
Speaker 2: Park station, and you walk out and you're at the
Speaker 2: golf course. And there's just something so special about that,
Speaker 2: about the accessibility that people will have to access the
Speaker 2: golf course. And it's par three, so you don't have
Speaker 2: to invest in in your driver or woods just yet
Speaker 2: if you're if you're learning how to play, it's not
Speaker 2: a huge financial investment. And it's just super fun. And
Speaker 2: and they've done a really great job of making golf
Speaker 2: a part of the community there.
Speaker 1: What's the course itself?
Speaker 2: Like, Uh, it's nothing special, it's just just the golf course.
Speaker 2: But that's not what makes it memorable or important. It's
Speaker 2: like the ability to play this golf course with someone
Speaker 2: who's new at golf, a professional who just wants to
Speaker 2: get away from their country club. It's it's it's just
Speaker 2: so such a mixed bag of skill level, demographics, ages,
Speaker 2: I mean, you name it. It's just you'll never see
Speaker 2: the same people there twice. In terms of like, it's
Speaker 2: not it's it's not homogeneous in the type of people
Speaker 2: you see at the golf club, and it's just there's
Speaker 2: something really special about that about how accessible it is
Speaker 2: because there's a putt and green that's open to anyone.
Speaker 2: You don't have to play golf. You can just go
Speaker 2: and hang out with your mates and have a beer
Speaker 2: and there's no expectations. And it's that experience that I'm
Speaker 2: always trying to bottle and replicate.
Speaker 1: It's a short course, right, it's all par three's, and
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how long the longest hole is. But
Speaker 1: there's a kind of total experience to what you're describing,
Speaker 1: because if the pro shop is in the subway, then
Speaker 1: what you're telling people is you can come here on
Speaker 1: the subway. You bring your clubs, but you're not going
Speaker 1: to bring fourteen clubs. Probably, you're not going to bring
Speaker 1: your staff bag. You're going to bring a slim Sunday
Speaker 1: bag or something like that, and you can play this
Speaker 1: golf course. And it's all kind of linked together that way.
Speaker 1: If it were an eighteen hole, full regulation course, it
Speaker 1: might not work in the same way, right.
Speaker 2: No, it wouldn't at all. And it's that combination of
Speaker 2: being financially accessible, logistically accessible, and the playability of the
Speaker 2: golf course is really soft and accessible, and all of
Speaker 2: those things combined create for this cool experience that is
Speaker 2: just so welcoming and inviting to non traditional golfers.
Speaker 1: And you know something I've been thinking about a lot
Speaker 1: lately having young kids. And you know, I'm not necessarily
Speaker 1: saying that families like mine aren't underrepresented demographic in the game.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's the case. But I have come
Speaker 1: to appreciate courses that have accommodations for young kids that
Speaker 1: make it possible to bring a young family to the
Speaker 1: golf course and go have fun. I've come to really
Speaker 1: appreciate that. And you know that there is there are
Speaker 1: some really specific things that can be done that can
Speaker 1: help that. One thing that I saw at goat Hill
Speaker 1: Park in near San Diego is that they have this
Speaker 1: set of really far forward I forget what they call them.
Speaker 1: They had a charming name for them, but really really
Speaker 1: far forward tease where you could just imagine little kids
Speaker 1: going up and whacking a ball toward the green and
Speaker 1: that would be part of their experience of the course.
Speaker 1: So you were it was inviting you to bring along
Speaker 1: your three or four year old, which is super rare
Speaker 1: at golf courses. And I wonder if that's something that
Speaker 1: you've thought about before, what the kind of family experience
Speaker 1: at a golf course might be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's another great example of how the social
Speaker 2: equity we have can be applied that we strive for
Speaker 2: can be applied to a golf course of how do
Speaker 2: we make an inviting for families to come out and
Speaker 2: use the golf course so that this this sport is
Speaker 2: generational and we encourage more people and as many people
Speaker 2: to play as we can. So that's a really great consideration.
Speaker 1: So we've mostly talked about public golf courses so far
Speaker 1: because that is where these questions are most pressing. But
Speaker 1: a lot of the work that architects get these days
Speaker 1: is at private clubs, and so I wonder, what does
Speaker 1: inclusive design look like at the club level? How do
Speaker 1: you practice that when you're given a commission at a
Speaker 1: private club.
Speaker 2: For me, it's basically just a full audit of the
Speaker 2: experience of a woman on the golf course and how
Speaker 2: they navigate the golf course and what's lacking on the
Speaker 2: golf course. And it might be washrooms on the course
Speaker 2: that are available, and it might be a full forward
Speaker 2: t program, and I think what I really love to
Speaker 2: do is just be a voice for the women membership
Speaker 2: and the women contingency at a club to make sure
Speaker 2: that their needs are met at the end of the
Speaker 2: day when we deliver this final master plan that's going
Speaker 2: to dictate the direction of the club in the next
Speaker 2: five years, that the women's voices are heard and the
Speaker 2: perspective is valuable. So mostly time is forward tease and
Speaker 2: and redesign of the ferry lines and the tea boxes
Speaker 2: and the tree management that comes with that. And it's
Speaker 2: also a bit more of the logistical aspects of what
Speaker 2: does a scorecard look like, what's the language we use
Speaker 2: in the scorecard? Are there enough restrooms that I'm the course,
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. So it's kind of full picture inside, outside, hardscape,
Speaker 2: softscape everything.
Speaker 1: I believe you're doing some of this work right now
Speaker 1: at Beaconsfield Golf Club A, which is a Stanley Thompson
Speaker 1: course outside of Montreal. You're you're on this project with
Speaker 1: Jeff Mingay, who's who's a friend of the pod, A
Speaker 1: great guy, a really talented architect, and uh so my understanding,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure where I read this. It was a
Speaker 1: while ago. But my understanding is that you've had meetings
Speaker 1: with the women and the membership that that this has
Speaker 1: been part of the process at that club specifically. If
Speaker 1: that's if that's happening, how is that process going?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is happening. And one of the first things
Speaker 2: I did when we got that commission was go and
Speaker 2: play in Ladies Day with all of the women and
Speaker 2: just get to know them and make a human connection
Speaker 2: and play the golf course and experience the golf course
Speaker 2: from the teas that they generally play, and it becomes
Speaker 2: very apparent, very quickly that there are issues with the
Speaker 2: way that the golf course is set up playing from
Speaker 2: the forward tees. So we were able to spend a
Speaker 2: few days together and anyone who wanted to participate, women
Speaker 2: girls were able to do so, and it was just
Speaker 2: mostly a conversation about how their needs are being met
Speaker 2: on the golf course and then how and then it's
Speaker 2: my job to translate all of that into the final plan.
Speaker 2: So it's going really well, and we're on the final
Speaker 2: stretch and we have a Stanley Thompson like coming up,
Speaker 2: or we're just giving Jeff and I are going to
Speaker 2: the club and going to tell them how cool Stanley
Speaker 2: Thompson is and why it's so important that they retain
Speaker 2: that history. And again, it's just it's just putting putting
Speaker 2: faces together and meeting people and interacting with people, and
Speaker 2: people will tell you what they need and you just
Speaker 2: have to listen.
Speaker 1: Christine, thank you so much for taking time out of
Speaker 1: your Swedish vacation to talk to me. I really do
Speaker 1: appreciate it and I'm looking forward to seeing what you
Speaker 1: do next.
Speaker 2: Grett, thanks for having me. I appreciate your curiosity.
Speaker 1: This episode of the Friday Podcast was edited by Meg Atkins.
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Speaker 1: be back later this week with the fourth installment of
Speaker 1: our Abandon Dunes Deep Dive series, in which Andy and
Speaker 1: I have a rousing discussion of Tom Doaks Pacific Dudes.
Speaker 1: See you then, and thanks for listening.