1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:05,279 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 2: It seems too. 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 3: Soon to kill off a second one, and Jenonima answered 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 3: one is about the same as two, and barely a 5 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 3: week later, husband number two was dead. 6 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,599 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 8 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken 10 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 11 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 12 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 13 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers mate, both 14 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 15 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. We don't talk a lot 16 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: on this show about female killers, but author Craig Monson 17 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: has brought me a fascinating story right out of a 18 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: Hollywood film. His book, The Black Widows of the Eternal 19 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: City centers on a web of women poisoners in seventeenth 20 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: century Rome and their male victims. I was really interested 21 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: in your book because I've dabbled a little bit in 22 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: research about Roman poisoners, and I looked at what has 23 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: been purported to be the first serial killer in the world, 24 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: Lacusta de Gaul, who was essentially hired by several different 25 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: emperors to poison very famous people to get people out 26 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: of the way. And you know, I learned that they 27 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: used enslaved people as food testers because everyone important was 28 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: being poisoned. So when your book came up about something 29 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: much more contemporary seventeenth century Rome than what I was 30 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: used to, was really excited to hear the story. So 31 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: what is seventeenth century Rome like politically? And you know 32 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: where crime? Where are we? 33 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 2: Well? 34 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 3: The story takes place in Rome in the sixteen fifties, 35 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,119 Speaker 3: which was a period when the city was controlled by 36 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 3: the papacy and dominated by several old, extremely wealthy, and 37 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 3: rival noble families. The general populace had little say about 38 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 3: how they were governed, and existed in what we could 39 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 3: call a culture of surveillance. The police employed a network 40 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 3: of spies and snitches, for example, and the doctors and 41 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 3: barber surgeons were required to report any cases of possibly 42 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 3: suspicious deaths. In addition, there was the archetypical nosy neighbor paradigm, 43 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 3: the social figure who always had her nose in everybody 44 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 3: else's business and was really a characteristic figure in the 45 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 3: neighborhood whose eyes and ears basically missed nothing, so that 46 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 3: life was lived much more publicly than it is today. 47 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 3: Gossip and word of mouth were incredibly powerful and spread 48 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 3: in churches and piazzas, and so they were effectively the 49 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 3: social media of the day and made it very difficult 50 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 3: to keep anything secret. So that's sort of the situation 51 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 3: in which the story was sort of developing. 52 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: One thing that I like to ask people when we're 53 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: setting the scene of a particular city in a time 54 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: period is what were the punitive charges for different things? 55 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: For instance, I'm always shocked at time periods where theft, 56 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: like stealing five dollars would be a capital crime. So 57 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: how now was crime and punishment handled in seventeenth century Rome. 58 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: Was it really easy to be thrown in jail? 59 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting. 60 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 3: It was very easy to be hauled in and questioned, 61 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 3: but in order to be convicted you needed a confession 62 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 3: or you needed the testimony of two eyewitnesses, and so 63 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 3: that was a little tricky. In this case, because a 64 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 3: lot of the evidence was gossip that was circulating around 65 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 3: second and third or fourth hand and getting a confession 66 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 3: what often became the critical technique, and that's one reason 67 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 3: that torture was used so regularly. 68 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: So where do we go from there? We kind of 69 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: set the scene what ends up happening next. 70 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 3: Apparently it took several years for the would be widow's 71 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 3: crime to be discovered, and this was because the chief 72 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 3: protagonists were meticulously careful about distancing themselves from the actual poisonings, 73 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 3: particularly in the early years. And then by a happy 74 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 3: accident in the spring of sixteen fifty six, bubonic plague 75 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 3: struck Rome. So within the year, twenty three thousand Roman citizens, 76 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 3: which was twenty percent of the population, died. Therefore, any 77 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 3: poisoned husband simply disappeared, unnoticed among thousands of other hastily 78 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 3: buried corpses. But then once the plague was over, they 79 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 3: started to notice this curious uptick in husband's deaths. And 80 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 3: I can sort of give a brief outline of how 81 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 3: it worked. In sixteen fifty eight, first a Francesco Tombourini, 82 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 3: the woodworker of the Trevi Fountain, died. Then on July 83 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 3: twenty second, sixteen fifty eight, Simon Umbert of French painter 84 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 3: on Via de la Croce died. Then three days later, 85 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 3: July twenty fifth, Antonio Julie, the debt ridden mattress maker died. 86 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 3: Then three weeks after that, on August sixteenth, Giovanni Pietro Beltrami, 87 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 3: the dier at the Elm, died. On November nineteenth, marc 88 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 3: Antonio Ronieri, the roving adventurer died. So with this kind 89 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 3: of steady stream of kind of mysteriously dying husbands, it 90 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 3: was almost inevitable that they would be noticed. 91 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 2: In addition, the nosy. 92 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 3: Neighbors of a linener who had a shop just across 93 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 3: the street from Rome's notorious toured and on a prison 94 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 3: remembered several other curious deaths in the linener's family right 95 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 3: before the plague. On March twenty third, sixteen fifty five, 96 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 3: the linener's son in law had abruptly died of a 97 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 3: virulent stomach infection. Then in September of that year, the 98 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 3: husband of the linener's sister in law died of the 99 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 3: same systems, and a month after that, on October ninth, 100 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 3: the linener's other son in law, who ran a barber 101 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 3: shop right next to the prison, died of the same symptoms. 102 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: And this is all after the bubonic plague had dissipated, 103 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: and that's why this was alarming. Okay, so this is 104 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: way beyond their normal death rate after a plague. 105 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 106 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 3: And also it was curious that the husbands of the 107 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 3: Linener's daughters also displayed unusually ruddy faces. And as somebody 108 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 3: said at one of the at the funerals, they look 109 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 3: better dead than when they were alive. 110 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: Well, I was going to ask that what are the 111 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: external symptoms, because did they have any idea about toxicology? 112 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: I know, with arsenic I think it was that organs 113 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: would turn black and the face would be black, and 114 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: was there sort of an obvious tailtale sign for whoever 115 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: the corner type person was. 116 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 3: The traditional version of the story says that there were 117 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 3: no symptoms and that was one of the virtues of 118 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 3: the poison. But in fact, there were symptoms. I mean, 119 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 3: for one thing, they first developed a burning in the 120 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 3: throat and a terrible thirst. Then they started having extreme 121 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 3: stomach pain and began to vomit so violently that one 122 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 3: neighbor said he vomited so much he looked like he 123 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 3: would turn himself inside out. So there were in fact 124 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 3: characteristic symptoms, and some of those symptoms were associated with 125 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:49,439 Speaker 3: arsenic And interestingly enough, in this period apothecaries were forbidden 126 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 3: to sell arsenic to women, So in this case, the 127 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 3: women who brewed the poison enlisted the services of a 128 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 3: priest who was also a sort of who practiced witchcraft, 129 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 3: and he would go to the apothecaries and buy the 130 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 3: arsenic for them. 131 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: What is this concoction exactly? Because with my research with 132 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: Lucusta degal it was night shade belladonna people would know 133 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: as belladonna, but you know it was very plant based poison. 134 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: So what is this. 135 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, it's interesting that for a long time 136 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 3: the nature of the poison was shrouded in mystery, and 137 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 3: one of the most recent scholarly books suggests that it 138 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 3: was strychnine. Well, it couldn't have been strychnine, because death 139 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 3: by strychnine involves horrible grimaces on the face and the 140 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 3: sort of tensing up of the body, whereas these people 141 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 3: look better dead than alive. So there's been lots of 142 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 3: speculation about what the poison involved. And one of my 143 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 3: favorites is a suggestion by Alert and a toxicologist that 144 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 3: it involved the bacterial laden drippings from a moldering dead 145 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 3: pig that had been smeared with arsenic. 146 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: That what this person ingested is that what happened. 147 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: That they then, I guess they thought they collected these 148 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 2: drippings and used. 149 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: That, Oh, that's awful. 150 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 3: In fact, I've established that the poison in fact is 151 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 3: described in the transcript of the investigation, and one of 152 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 3: the women, named Giovanna de Grandi's, says that it involved 153 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 3: grinding together arsenic lead, bird shot, and sometimes adding antimony, 154 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 3: and they were ground together then simmered for about an 155 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 3: hour in a new jar. They said it had to 156 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 3: be a new jar, which was sealed with doe, and 157 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 3: then it was allowed to cool overnight, after which it 158 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 3: was ready, and one of the witnesses said it was 159 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 3: clear and tasted just like water from the well. Wow. 160 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 3: And the other interesting thing is how carefully the Lieutenant 161 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 3: Governor of Rome and his assistants tried to test the poison. 162 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 3: We haven't really talked about how they caught Giovanna de 163 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 3: Grandi's in the act when she was offering another woman 164 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 3: a little vial filled with liquid. Well, they took that 165 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 3: little vial and they fed small quantities every day to 166 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,599 Speaker 3: a prison dog and a prison pig, and they carefully 167 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 3: recorded their symptoms day by day, and after barely a 168 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:41,439 Speaker 3: week they were dead. 169 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 2: Then they got. 170 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 3: A local apothecary to brew up a fresh batch using 171 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 3: Giovanna de Grandi's recipe, and then they fed it to 172 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 3: more prison pets, except this time one of the dogs 173 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 3: was also given the alleged antidote, which was either lemon 174 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 3: juice or vinegar, and sure enough. 175 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 2: That dog survived. 176 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 3: So they then had a clear idea of what the 177 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,359 Speaker 3: poison in fact involved. 178 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: That had to have been a coincidence, right that the 179 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,079 Speaker 1: dog recovered or was there something in lemon jee No. 180 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 3: It was that was definitely the antidote, because at the 181 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 3: end of the case, a broadside was published, you know, 182 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 3: in sixteen fifty nine in you know, several months later, 183 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 3: forbidding anyone to use arsenic, especially women, for any purpose, 184 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 3: And then it also told what the antidote was, you know, 185 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 3: a few ounces. 186 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 2: Of lemon juice or vinegar. 187 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:46,079 Speaker 1: Wow. 188 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 3: So, and another one of the women who was a 189 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 3: purveyor of the poison. In telling how she first encountered it, 190 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 3: said her neighbor had a cat and she fed it 191 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 3: to the cat and the cat died, and then she 192 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 3: skinned the cat and found that the cat's flesh again 193 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 3: was very ruddy, like the faces of the dead husband's. 194 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: So, if we go back to you know, sixteen fifty eight, 195 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: sixteen fifty nine, there's a series of deaths of men 196 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: all sort of running together, and the investigators are saying 197 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: that this is odd. What is their step, what do 198 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: they do to investigate? Are they able to connect to 199 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: these women or how long does this go on before 200 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: they finally are able to connect them together. 201 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 3: Well, the interesting that thing that happened was one woman 202 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 3: who planned to poison her husband got cold feet, and 203 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 3: she confessed to her father confessor that she had thought 204 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 3: of buying poison from this woman, Giovanna de Grandi's, but 205 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 3: then changed her mind, And of course the priest ignored 206 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 3: the much vaunted sanctity of the confessional and ratted her 207 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 3: out to the police. So this woman was arrested. She 208 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 3: realized she was in a difficult position, and she petitioned 209 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 3: the pope for immunity from prosecution if she told all 210 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 3: and also agreed to collaborate with the police in a 211 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 3: sting to catch Giovanna de Grandi's in the act. So 212 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 3: she went to Giovanna de Grandi's and told her she 213 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 3: had a wealthy woman who wanted to kill her husband 214 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 3: and needed some of her liquid, and Giovanna de Grandis 215 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 3: was to go to the so called Well of the 216 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 3: Most Holy Martyrs in Rome's church of Santa Pudenciana. There 217 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 3: she would find a woman with bright red sleeves and 218 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 3: a handkerchief pinned to one of her sleeves, and that 219 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 3: would identify this woman as the guide who would take 220 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 3: her across town to the house of the wanna be widow. So, 221 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 3: while Giovanna was making her way across town, the lieuten 222 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 3: tenant Governor of Rome and the chief of police and 223 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 3: two flunkys whom they brought along as witnesses, were already 224 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 3: at the house in question, where they found the wife 225 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 3: of a sergeant who had been dressed up in velvet 226 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 3: and fancy jewels and was playing the role of the 227 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 3: wanna be widow. And while they waited for Giovanna's arrival, 228 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 3: the two witnesses crawled under a bed where they could overhear, 229 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 3: and the Lieutenant Governor in chief of police hid behind 230 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 3: the curtains. So when Giovanna arrived, and at the very 231 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 3: moment when she pulled out this little glass vial wrapped 232 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 3: in an embroidered handkerchief, they leapt out of hiding, caught 233 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 3: her in the act, arrested her and took her to 234 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 3: tourden on a prison and began to interrogate her. 235 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: Now, I think is a great time to tell me 236 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: about her your central character. So she, you know, just 237 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: as somebody here during this for the first time. Of course, 238 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: I'm thinking this is some sort of criminal mastermind who 239 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: is able to, somehow through an underground network reach out 240 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: to all of these troubled women who need a solution 241 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: to their terrible husbands. And she has this solution. But 242 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: where does she come from? What's her origin story? 243 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 3: Well, the interesting thing is that Giovanna de Grandi's is 244 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 3: not the person who has been made the central figure 245 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 3: in subsequent generations. Giovanna de Grandi's was a woman who 246 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 3: had been sort of upper middle class and then in 247 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 3: the course of four marriages, none of which she poisoned 248 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 3: by the way each husband dies, and she declines another 249 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 3: step into the social hierarchy, until in the end she's 250 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 3: basically a procurus. But once she's arrested, she almost immediately 251 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 3: gives up and confesses, as she said herself, I could 252 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 3: care less about dying, but I wouldn't want to be 253 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 3: torn and threatened with tortures. She immediately caved in, and 254 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 3: over the next few days and weeks she identified a 255 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 3: string of poisoned purveyors and poison purchasers. 256 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 2: And the most important to. 257 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,239 Speaker 3: One of these, and the one who has captured the 258 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 3: imagination of subsequent generations and even has a page on Wikipedia, 259 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 3: is Gendonimu Spahna, who's been the chief figure in subsequent 260 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 3: retellings of the tale over subsequent centuries. 261 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: So we start with a woman who was interested in 262 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: poisoning her husband, backs out, tells a priest, he turns, 263 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: so we have a lot of flipping happening in seventeenth 264 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 1: century Rome. The priest turns her in, she creates the 265 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: sting or goes to the police, and there's a sting 266 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: who ends up capturing another woman who is now getting 267 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: ready to turn on Giovanna Grundez, right, and then she 268 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: turns on the main character right, which is Geronima. 269 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: Yes, Geronima Spawna got it. 270 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 3: And it's within twenty four hours she has named Geronima 271 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 3: and by the next day Geronima has has has been arrested. 272 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: Now what is her defense? Does Geronima say what happened? 273 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: Or does she keep her mouth shut? 274 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 3: Well, the interesting thing is Genonima's strategy ever since the beginning, 275 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 3: had been to keep as much distance from the whole enterprise, 276 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 3: so she had always been very careful to work through intermediaries. 277 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 3: X would tell Why about the poison, who would get 278 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,239 Speaker 3: Z to go to Gerdonima to get the poison, who 279 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 3: would then bring it back to X, who would then 280 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 3: give it to Why. And Geronima also lived on the 281 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 3: other side of the Arno from downtown Rome, so she 282 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,239 Speaker 3: was also physically kind of removed from where much of 283 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 3: the action was happening. And so it's interesting that as Giovanna, 284 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 3: the one who is in prison and is confessing, named 285 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 3: all these various women, many of them had never even 286 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 3: heard of Gerdonima because she had been so successful about 287 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 3: keeping her distance. The irony is then that Geronima Spanna 288 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:26,479 Speaker 3: has become in subsequent centuries the sort of heroine of 289 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:31,719 Speaker 3: the whole story, but her biography has also been shrouded 290 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 3: in mystery. But I established that she was born actually 291 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 3: of a well to do family in Sicily about sixteen fifteen. 292 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 3: Her mother died when she was about two years old. 293 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 3: Her father promptly remarried a woman named Julia Manngardi, who 294 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 3: has now become known as Julia Tofana. Later generations have 295 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 3: made Julia almost as famous as Geronima as a famous poisoner, 296 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 3: and she's in fact become the subject of elaborate, confusing 297 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 3: and contradictive biographies that, for example, indicates she died anywhere 298 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 3: from sixteen fifty nine to seventeen thirty, which meant she. 299 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 2: Would have died at great old age. 300 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 3: In fact, I've now I found her death records, so 301 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 3: I know she died in sixteen fifty one. Geronima later 302 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 3: said that Julia was a wonderful woman who taught her 303 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 3: everything she knew. 304 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: I was wondering what Julia's significance. I predicted murder victim. 305 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 1: But it doesn't sound like it. It sounds like mentor 306 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: mentee with her stepdaughter. 307 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 308 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 3: She says she taught her everything she knew Geronima's father 309 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 3: died very quickly. He wasn't poisoned, and so then Julia, 310 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 3: Geronima and Julia's next husband promptly flees sicily, and it 311 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 3: looks like they were just ahead of the police. And 312 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 3: they settled in Rome in sixteen twenty four, and both 313 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 3: Julia and her stepdaughter Geronima then became kind of go 314 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 3: betweens or fixers. For example, they would bring together buyers 315 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 3: and sellers of various items. And they also became marriage brokers. 316 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 3: And of course marriage brokers were extremely important figures in society, 317 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 3: because nobody in their right mind married for love. You 318 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 3: always used a marriage broker, and so they found appropriate 319 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 3: wives for husbands and appropriate husbands for wives. And they 320 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 3: also were fortune tellers traffickers in so called women's secrets. 321 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 3: And these secrets ranged from face balms to tinctures for 322 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 3: the complexion, to perfumes, to kitchen recipes to charms and 323 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 3: other mysterious means of solving family and household problems. But 324 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 3: of course, in Julia and Geronimous case, one of these 325 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 3: secrets was this secret concoction to do away with abusive 326 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 3: or simply inconvenient husbands. 327 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 1: So this is a crime syndicate, right. 328 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 2: It's a sort of syndicate. 329 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 3: But to me it looks too hap hazard, as we'll 330 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 3: see to have been a proper syndicate. It was two 331 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 3: sort of airzats and halp hazard. 332 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: When you take the customers. If you remove the number 333 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: of customers that they had, that Geronima and Julia had, 334 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: how many people purveyors, apothecaries, you know, all of these people. 335 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,959 Speaker 1: How many people do you think were involved with this 336 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: minus the customers. 337 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 3: Well, in the ultimately there are five purveyors of the poison. 338 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 3: Actually there were six if you count Julia. But the 339 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 3: thing is Julia the stepmother, was dead by sixteen fifty one, 340 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,680 Speaker 3: and it's really after her generation that the business really 341 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 3: gets going. 342 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 2: Then there were five. 343 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 3: There was Ganima, there was Ivanna, the ones who's ratting 344 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 3: on everybody else, and she in fact fingers three others. 345 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 3: And all these five were believed to be to know 346 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 3: the poison recipe, which was really important. That they knew 347 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 3: the recipe, that they brewed up the poison, and that 348 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 3: they pervaded to the one to be widows. So basically 349 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 3: there were five. But then there is testimony that suggests 350 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 3: that One of these others had a woman off in Palestrina, 351 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 3: which is a suburb of Rome, who kind of acted 352 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 3: as a runner. If anybody in Palestrina needed to get 353 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 3: rid of a husband, she would carry the poison. And 354 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 3: then there were a couple other cities where there seemed 355 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 3: to have been women who acted as go betweens. A 356 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 3: lot of it has a sort of haphazard quality about 357 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 3: the way it's happening. 358 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: Let me ask you about Geronima. When a woman would 359 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: come to her her and say or to somebody you know, 360 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: I'll go between and say I need to get rid 361 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 1: of my husband. Does someone in this group have any 362 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: kind of moral compass to check? Do they have to 363 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: give an excuse and say he's a horrible husband, or 364 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: can it simply say I'm tired of having sex with 365 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: this guy. I'd like to go with a younger man, 366 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: and that be okay. 367 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 2: I mean. 368 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 3: The interesting thing, one of the interesting things is that 369 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 3: often what they hear is that these women who have 370 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 3: all these secrets know how to reconcile husbands. So they 371 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 3: go to them because they say, I have this husband 372 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 3: that beats me, or he's lazy, he never earns any money, 373 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 3: and we're starving to death. Can you tell me a 374 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 3: way to reconcile with him? There are cases in the 375 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 3: transcript where a woman will say, oh, yes, I can 376 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 3: do that. Pay me, and here's what you have to do, 377 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 3: and she tells her to sort of say a charm 378 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 3: and and put some non poisonous chemical in his food, 379 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 3: and that will do the trick. 380 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 2: But of course it does nothing. It's sort of Charlatanism. 381 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: On the surface. Geronima is a psychic, right, is that 382 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: sort of what her job is? 383 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 2: Oh, it's yes. 384 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 3: She was called Lyndovina or Lastrologa, which means the astrologer, 385 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 3: and she's in fact supposed to have predicted who would 386 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 3: be elected the current pope in the years when this 387 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 3: was happening, which was Alexander the Seventh. And one reason 388 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 3: that she got such a reputation was because there was 389 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 3: such a wide interest in these so called secrets. Aristocrats, 390 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 3: aristocratic women, and women from all classes of society were 391 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 3: interested in secrets, so that in a way, the secrets 392 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:57,239 Speaker 3: opened palace doors to Julia and Judonima, who seemed to 393 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 3: have cultivated aristocratic women who were fascinated by secrets, not 394 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 3: just poison but the face balms and tinctures for the 395 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 3: complexion and telling the future. One reason I think that 396 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 3: Geronima became the primary character and subsequent retellings of the 397 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 3: tale was because she had all these connections with various aristocratic. 398 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 2: Women in Rome who would loan. 399 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 3: Her their carriage, for example, if she wanted to visit 400 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 3: all the seven churches she was very careful to, whereas 401 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:38,959 Speaker 3: most of the other women were, for example, beggars, laundresses, procuruses. 402 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 3: Geronima cultivated this image as a refined, aristocratic, pious woman 403 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 3: and kept her distance from the more nitty gritty aspects 404 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 3: of the business until she was finally caught out late 405 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 3: in the investigation. 406 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: Tell me about the investigation. I know you have people 407 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: turning on her and she's arrested. What happens with the investigation? 408 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: She's jailed immediately, I assume is there bail In seventeenth century. 409 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 3: Rome, Gedonima was arrested, as I said, almost immediately, and 410 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 3: then over the next few weeks. Givanna, the one who 411 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 3: is kind of the key figure in Giving Everything Away, 412 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 3: gives out the names of all sorts of other women, 413 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 3: But interestingly enough, a lot of these women seem to 414 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 3: know nothing at all about Judonima's Spahna, because they've only 415 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 3: gone through intermediaries, and because Ganima had been so extremely 416 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 3: careful to distance herself from the women who were actually 417 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 3: doing the poisoning, and in fact, it looks like Gedonima 418 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,679 Speaker 3: may never have poisoned anybody herself. 419 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: Tell me the two rules about convicting somebody in seventeenth 420 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: century Rome, two witnesses and what was the other one 421 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: that you have to have if you don't have witnesses? 422 00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 2: Oh, you had to have a confession. 423 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 1: Okay, So do either of these things come up with 424 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: Droonima's case while she's in jail? 425 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 2: Oh? 426 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean Jradonima is interrogated twenty four times over 427 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 3: six months. She answers the questions endlessly with all sorts 428 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 3: of irrelevant information. They'll say, do you know a woman 429 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 3: named Maria? Because one of the five poisoned purveyors was 430 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 3: named Maria Spinola, And she says, I don't know anybody 431 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 3: named Maria, which is absolutely ridiculous because everybody in Rome 432 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 3: has Maria as a name. And then she'll say, but 433 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 3: I knew a Cecilia whose mother was a laundress, who 434 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 3: was from Messina. You know that Messina is in Sicily, 435 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 3: and I also knew a woman named Julia Pisciata, and 436 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 3: so she would drive the interrogator crazy with all this 437 00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 3: irrelevant information that she obligingly offers, but without ever admitting 438 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 3: any sort of wrongdoing herself. 439 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: One thing I want to emphasize, and hopefully I'm right 440 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: about this, is you know why some of these women 441 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: are turning so quickly on each other if they are 442 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: being threatened with torture. The Romans are known, I mean, 443 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: I think the most well known for torture. What would 444 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: have been the various punishments that would have happened to 445 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: people men or women in this time period. 446 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 3: It's worth remembering that, you know, all the women are 447 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 3: thrown into tordent On a prison, but prison was a 448 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 3: place where people were kept for questioning, or where debtors 449 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 3: were kept. You didn't get sent to prison as a punishment. 450 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 3: So if you're found guilty of something, they don't throw 451 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 3: you in prison. You might be executed, which was reasonably common, 452 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 3: or you might suffer some sort of physical punishment like 453 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 3: being branded or whipped, but often the common punishment was exiled. 454 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 2: They just wanted to get you rid of you. 455 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 3: And so for minor crimes, if you were exiled, you 456 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 3: were exiled from Rome. For slightly more serious crimes, you 457 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 3: were exiled from Rome and the Vicinity. And for the 458 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 3: more serious crimes than that, you were exiled from the 459 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 3: Papal States. And the Papal states encompassed basically most of Italy, 460 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 3: from the area near Naples up to beyond Bologna. 461 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 2: So the central third of Italy. 462 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: And Geronima, I'm assuming, is facing execution for all of this, right. 463 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Though it takes them a while to get 464 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 3: to that, because obviously Gudonima is refusing to confess to anything, 465 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 3: and so many of the women have never. 466 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 2: Heard of her. 467 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: Do they release her? Do they have to release her? 468 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 3: Well, finally, after about four months, the Lieutenant governor brings 469 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 3: in old servant. And this was a woman of an 470 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 3: embittered snitch of a woman who spent all her time 471 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 3: hiding behind doors eavesdropping, and she was only too ready 472 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 3: to tell everything she knew, plus a certain amount more 473 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 3: that she just made up. She said something like I 474 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 3: saw her give poison to any number of people, and 475 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 3: most of them were women. And so finally here he 476 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 3: had an eyewitness, and then she said something like and 477 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 3: I remember before the plague, she gave it to a 478 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 3: Catadena who was the wife of the butcher of the 479 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 3: Sistine Bridge. And so the next day the so called 480 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 3: butcher's wife of Ponte Sisto was arrested and they began 481 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 3: to interrogate her, and immediately she realized the danger she 482 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 3: was in. So she petitioned the pope, and he gave 483 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 3: her in unity if she told everything she knew. And 484 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 3: so the interesting thing is here is a woman who 485 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 3: not only incriminates Giovanna, but in great detail tells what 486 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 3: the plight of these women was. 487 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: Like, what's so interesting hearing your story. I just finished 488 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: a book about a woman who dies, who's murdered, And 489 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: I always say, I'm always looking for the female heroes, 490 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: and I continually come up in my books with female heroes, 491 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: which you have in an odd way, right, because they're 492 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: trying to help these women with their marriages and also 493 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 1: with abusive husbands. But then I also end up with 494 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: a lot of female villains, which you have here too. 495 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: So this is such a female centric story that you've 496 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: come up with. 497 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 3: And it's so full of ambiguity because they're more anti heroes, yeah, 498 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 3: than heroes or villains. I mean, it's kind of romantic 499 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 3: to think of women like Jiuvanna and Jerdonima helping these women. 500 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 3: But the main thing they're trying to do is sell. 501 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 2: Them the poison. 502 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 503 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 3: And I mean there are cases, I mean Giovanna, for example, 504 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 3: with one woman that she sold the poison to. Once 505 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 3: the husband is dead, Giovanna keeps coming and asking for 506 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 3: more and more money. 507 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: Does this organized crime? 508 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 2: Yeah? 509 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, And so in this particular case, the very next day, 510 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 3: of course, the butcher's wife of ponte Cisto is arrested and. 511 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 2: Agrees to tell her story. 512 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 3: And it turns out that this Catina had grown up 513 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 3: in her father's butcher shop and at age sixteen in 514 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 3: sixteen thirty eight, had been married off to the butcher 515 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 3: of Ponte Cisto, who was just a colleague of her father's, 516 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 3: who happened to be eight years older than she was. 517 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 3: So she's sixteen, he's already in his mid twenties. And 518 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 3: although she said she never left the house to go 519 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 3: to mass and never stood at the windows or did 520 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 3: anything else immodest, her husband constantly beat her and He 521 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 3: also kicked her in the stomach when she was seven 522 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 3: months pregnant, as she said, saying he wanted to expel 523 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 3: the fetus from my body. And so Katarina therefore sought 524 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 3: out Gerdonima' spahna because she had heard that she could 525 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 3: reconcile husbands and wives. So she claimed she didn't go 526 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 3: to her originally for the poison, but for reconciliation. Now, 527 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 3: who knows, maybe she was lying, but of course Gerdonima responded, 528 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 3: and it's interesting this woman quotes Gudonima's very words. And 529 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 3: Gerdonima said, this husband of yours will bury you. And 530 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 3: then she went on, I might have discovered a way 531 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 3: to deliver you from your husband. I know how to 532 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 3: make a certain mixture. If you were to add it 533 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 3: to wine, to stew, or to whatever you like, and 534 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 3: your husband would were to eat it, he would die 535 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 3: either sooner or later, whichever you'd like. He could have 536 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 3: time to confess, he could take communion, he could receive 537 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 3: all the sacraments of the church. So she sort of 538 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 3: gives Katerina a way out. You know, oh, he's not 539 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 3: going to die unshriven without having confessed and received extreme function. 540 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 2: So that sort of. 541 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 3: Helps, so Katina was sold on the idea, but she 542 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,760 Speaker 3: had to pay ged on him at such a hefty 543 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 3: price that she paid in installments, and within the week 544 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,240 Speaker 3: the butcher of Ponte Cisto was dead. But then within 545 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 3: six months, Katerina's family began to insist that it was 546 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,800 Speaker 3: improper for her as a woman to be alone without 547 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 3: male supervision, and so they insisted that she remarry to 548 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 3: a cloth cutter from the neighborhood, and she had to 549 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 3: marry him without any seeing him, and again she testified. 550 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 3: He was ugly, little, hunched over, toothless in front, he 551 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 3: wore ragged hose, had a beard, and was so hairy 552 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 3: he looked like an animal. But ten months after her 553 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:18,479 Speaker 3: first husband had died, her family insisted that she marry him. 554 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 2: So it wasn't long before. 555 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 3: Katerina paid a visit to Geronimo's Spahna again and Geronima said, well, 556 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,280 Speaker 3: if you want to free yourself, you know the way, 557 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 3: And then Katerina responded, it seems too soon to kill 558 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,760 Speaker 3: off a second one, and Geronima answered, one is about 559 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:42,280 Speaker 3: the same as two, And barely a week later, husband 560 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 3: number two was dead. 561 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 1: It sounds like her family needed to receive some poison too. Katerina, Oh, 562 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 1: I know. 563 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 2: But this was not uncommon at all. 564 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 3: A woman's behavior was a reflection upon her entire family. 565 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 3: In sixteen fifty nine, then Katina confronts Jonima Spahna with 566 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 3: her testimony, and Jeronima continues adamantly to maintain her innocence 567 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 3: and even claims that Katina was in fact in love 568 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 3: with a lawyer who conspired with her to murder her 569 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 3: husband's The judge even tortured Katina in the presence of Geronima. 570 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:25,320 Speaker 2: What because there. 571 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 3: Was another interrogatory technique. If you brought a witness and 572 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 3: the accused together, you could torture the witness to prove 573 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 3: that they were telling the truth. And even under torture, 574 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 3: Katterina continued to insist that her story was true. But 575 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 3: of course Gdona was unmoved and she admitted to nothing, 576 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 3: unmoved by torture. Okay, So they're having a hard time. 577 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 3: They're not getting Geronima to confess, and you know, they're 578 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 3: they're coming up with they have Katerina and coming up 579 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 3: with witnesses. 580 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: So where do we go from there? 581 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 3: So finally, in July sixteen fifty nine, the Lieutenant Governor's 582 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 3: so called Congregation on Crime meant to consider the fate 583 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 3: of all the women locked up in prison. Giovanna de 584 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 3: Granti's and three others, plus Gdonima Spahna, were the five 585 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 3: culprits believed to have brewed the poison and to have 586 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 3: peddled it, and all but Gedonima had confessed, so that 587 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 3: you know, they were fine with all except Guronima, and 588 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 3: a case could have easily been made for torturing Gudonima 589 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,919 Speaker 3: to get her confession. But interestingly enough, the Modernese ambassador 590 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 3: wrote to his home court it was considered unwise to 591 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 3: proceed to torture, because they feared with her diabolical arts. 592 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 3: This rogue could boldly bear up under it. Given the 593 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 3: enormity and heinousness of the crime to the destruction of 594 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 3: the state, His Holiness Pope Alexander the seventh signed a 595 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 3: papal degree against that woman so that she could be 596 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 3: sentenced to the usual punishment, and of course the usual 597 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 3: punishment was hanging. So on July fifth, sixteen fifty nine, 598 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 3: Jononomus Bana, Giovanna de Grandi's and the other three poisoned 599 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:28,840 Speaker 3: purveyors were all taken to Rome's Compo de Fiori, which 600 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 3: could accommodate the maximum number of spectators, and apparently spots 601 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:38,720 Speaker 3: at the windows of the houses around the square sold 602 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 3: for as much as the rent in a rooming house 603 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,319 Speaker 3: for a year to all the people that wanted to 604 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 3: witness this, And chroniclers claimed that the entire city was there, 605 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 3: as they put it, everybody but nuns and the infirm. 606 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 1: I mean, that's incredible. 607 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 3: So the five were marched out one by one and hanged, 608 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 3: and then their bodies were taken to the church of 609 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 3: San Giovanni Decolato, which is the church of Saint John 610 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 3: the Baptist beheaded, which was the customary burial place for 611 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 3: the victims of execution, and they were interred beneath the 612 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 3: pavement in the cloister. And so as for all the 613 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 3: other women who were locked up in prison, they all 614 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 3: escaped the gallows. And interestingly enough, the view apparently was 615 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 3: that as silly women, they were too weak minded and 616 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,760 Speaker 3: gullible to resist the temptations of the likes of Giovanna 617 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 3: de Grandi's and Giodonimuspahna. As one theologian wrote, women are 618 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 3: too easily seduced. They are obstinate seducers. 619 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: So let me get this. So we're saying misogyny has 620 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 1: actually benefited these women. 621 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, They're easily taken in by these five poison purveyors. 622 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 1: So were they exiled all of these women. 623 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 3: So it's interesting those few of higher social status who 624 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 3: were implicated apparently got off scot free. Women like the 625 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 3: Aldebrandini duchess. Some of the other more ordinary women were 626 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:21,400 Speaker 3: interestingly enough forced to stand below the gallows during the 627 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 3: execution of a poison paveyre and then were flogged through 628 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:30,799 Speaker 3: the streets and banished from the papal states for life. 629 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: Yep. And this is why the Romans were known for 630 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 1: torture and for executions that kind of stuff. 631 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 3: It wasn't just Rome, it was common practice throughout Europe. 632 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: Wow. 633 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 3: And then as for Cottadina, the butcher's wife, despite having 634 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 3: received papal immunity, she was sentenced to permanent lifetime house 635 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:51,240 Speaker 3: arrest in Rome. 636 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 2: That's basically what happened to the rest of them. 637 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 1: And I had wondered about Giovanna de Grondez because didn't 638 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,360 Speaker 1: she have immunity? Also, why is she on the gallows. 639 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 2: No, no, no, she was. 640 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 3: She was the one who said, I don't mind dying, 641 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,799 Speaker 3: but I don't want to be tortured, okay. And what 642 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 3: they seem to have been worried about was who knew 643 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,399 Speaker 3: the poison recipe, because the five who were killed were 644 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 3: all the ones that knew the poison recipe. And I 645 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,879 Speaker 3: don't know if I already mentioned, but for centuries afterwards, 646 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,840 Speaker 3: until at least the mid eighteenth century, the pope kept 647 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 3: the transcription, the transcription of the investigation locked up under 648 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:38,520 Speaker 3: lock and key, because they were afraid that other disgruntled 649 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 3: wives might find the recipe and more unfortunate husbands would suffer, or. 650 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 1: They would just pay a man to go to an 651 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,280 Speaker 1: apothecary and buy the arsenic and that would have mister, yeah, yeah, 652 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 1: what do we learn from Have we learned anything, Craig 653 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: from this story? I mean, what what is the takeaway 654 00:42:55,560 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 1: for you? Besides you know that, of course poison and 655 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:02,920 Speaker 1: is still considered a woman's weapon, which I think is 656 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,160 Speaker 1: the lady's weapon, which is odd to me. 657 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 3: The stories remain compelling because these women's dilemmas are not 658 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,200 Speaker 3: unlike those that women continue to face. Of course, it's 659 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 3: only a since the nineteen seventies that battered wife syndrome 660 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 3: has come to be widely recognized but also widely disputed 661 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 3: as an extenuating factor in cases of spousal murder, and 662 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:33,000 Speaker 3: of course, long prison sentences are more common now than executions. 663 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 3: But as he left office in twenty sixteen, the governor 664 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,839 Speaker 3: of Missouri, my home state, declined to consider clemency or 665 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 3: pardons for any of fourteen women survivors of domestic abuse, 666 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:52,239 Speaker 3: some convicted several decades earlier of murdering their alleged abusers, 667 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 3: and in all cases, whether for or against battered wife syndrome, 668 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:04,000 Speaker 3: such decisions inevitably lay to mixed reviews, and public recognition 669 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 3: of a domestic abuse is an issue in spousal murder 670 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 3: has also burgeoned, interestingly enough, because of the public media explosion. 671 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:17,839 Speaker 3: Late in twenty sixteen, after receiving a clemency petition with 672 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:23,239 Speaker 3: no fewer than four hundred thousand signatures, the President of 673 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:27,879 Speaker 3: France freed Jacqueline Savage, who was serving a ten year 674 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:33,160 Speaker 3: sentence for murdering her husband after almost fifty years of abuse. 675 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,439 Speaker 3: It's also interesting I think that in nineteen ninety nine 676 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 3: the Dixie Chicks. Highly successful Goodbye Earl, whose heroines confront 677 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 3: and solve a marital predicament in ways remarkably similar to 678 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:53,359 Speaker 3: The Black Widows of sixteen fifty nine, rose very near 679 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,919 Speaker 3: the top of the charts, but it also provoked considerable 680 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 3: consternation and anxiety on country music stations, which sometimes declined 681 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,839 Speaker 3: to play it, as they had also refused to play 682 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:11,600 Speaker 3: Garth Brooks's nineteen ninety one and the Thunder Roles, in 683 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 3: which an abused wife murders her husband. 684 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,760 Speaker 1: I think that this story that you've told when people 685 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 1: ask me, why do you tell stories from the eighteen 686 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 1: hundreds and the seventeen hundreds of your case, the sixteen hundreds, 687 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,720 Speaker 1: why do you tell these stories that have been told 688 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 1: for so many years and have been forgotten? And I 689 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:36,399 Speaker 1: say this because this story will happen tomorrow, because these 690 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 1: people just replicate themselves throughout history, and now you know 691 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:45,520 Speaker 1: there is somebody who is being abused and trying to 692 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,560 Speaker 1: figure out a way out of it, and in seventeenth 693 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:52,799 Speaker 1: century Rome, this was sort of the solution. So I mean, 694 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,880 Speaker 1: I think you've done a wonderful job explaining this story 695 00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,719 Speaker 1: that anti heroes, as you call them, and I. 696 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 3: Think it also gives the greater clarity about the depth 697 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:09,560 Speaker 3: of resistance for centuries, indeed for millennia to female autonomy. Absolutely, 698 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 3: I've become more aware of the abiding double standards about 699 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:18,960 Speaker 3: dubious behavior when it comes to men or women. Men 700 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 3: can get away with what the women can, and perhaps 701 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:26,360 Speaker 3: it also helps me understand the leveling of anxiety within 702 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:31,120 Speaker 3: many churches and among many politicians when it comes to 703 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:37,200 Speaker 3: controlling women's behavior and when it comes to controlling women's bodies. 704 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,440 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 705 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,359 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 706 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,680 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget There are 707 00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:00,560 Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast to More 708 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,239 Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and 709 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,000 Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has 710 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,800 Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis 711 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:15,719 Speaker 1: a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode 712 00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,320 Speaker 1: was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer, 713 00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:24,680 Speaker 1: artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgariff, 714 00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:29,040 Speaker 1: and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold 715 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: More Wicked, and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod