1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: If you have heard about the murder of Jessica Chambers, 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: do not miss the new docuseries on Oxygen. It's the 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: true story of a teen girl, a cheerleader in Mississippi 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: who is burned alive and the story of the man 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: accused of this heinous crime. Is that the right guy 6 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: on trial? Who is he? And who is Jessica Chambers? 7 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: And how does such a horrific crime occur? With more 8 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: questions than answers, this is the case that has captured 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: national headlines, taken over social media, and leaves a small 10 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: town divided. This is a must see TV event. It 11 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: features exclusive interviews that take you inside the investigation as 12 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: a search for answers and justice goes on. Unspeakable crime, 13 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: The Killing of Jessica Chambers. Saturdays at seven six Central 14 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: on Oxygen, the new network for crime, Crime Stories with 15 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. A beautiful young golfer, a pro headed for 16 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: great things, Celia Barkin found dead murdered on an Iowa 17 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 1: golf course on Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank 18 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: you for being with us. What can we learn from 19 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: the nine one one call? Listen? They're concerned they saw 20 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: a female out of golf things on the course and 21 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: she's nowhere to be found any longer. They found her 22 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: clubs and other property or cell phone and a ball 23 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: cap at whole number nine. They don't know where she 24 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: disappeared to looking for a white female blond pan or 25 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: twentyes tal I see if golf team someone thought that 26 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: they were calling the code find out where she went 27 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: about on ninth Fairway right now with the golf staff. 28 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: They said that her items were scattered here next to 29 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: her bed. A lot of stuff laying on the ground, 30 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: including her head, ratings finder and cell phone. Female was 31 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: last see we're in a red T shirt and light 32 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 1: colored short They weren't sure if they were white but 33 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: lighter color. A beautiful young golfer and Iowa college student 34 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: found dead on an upscale golf course. Who would attack 35 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: a student actually a golf champion in broad daylight fearing 36 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: no repercussion? Joining me Raymond Judah Chay, renowned Atlanta defense attorney, 37 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: Karen Smith, forensics expert out of the Florida jurisdiction, Fulton 38 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 1: County Medical Examiner Dr Jan Gornia and joining me right now. 39 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter where you can find 40 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: this and all other breaking crime and justice news. Chuck, 41 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: let's start at the beginning. This young girl, Celia Barkin, 42 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,239 Speaker 1: is just twenty two years old, as she had just 43 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 1: won the European Ladies Amateur Championship. She as I said, 44 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: a student at Iowa State, and I understand that golfers 45 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: at the upscale Cold Water Golf Links in Aims first 46 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 1: found an unattended golf bag out on the course early 47 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: Monday morning. What happened next, Chuck? They immediately called nine 48 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: on one. They found her bag. They had seen her 49 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: earlier on the course. She was playing alone early in 50 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: the morning on Monday. They found her bag on the 51 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: ninth fairway, along with her cell phone and ball cap, 52 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: and she was nowhere around. So they called police at 53 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: about a quarter of ten. Well, hold on, hold on 54 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: just a moment, you know, Chuck, I appreciate your obvious 55 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: knowledge of the game of golf, but you know, from 56 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: my understanding, anybody on the panel of golfer, because I 57 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: understand it takes five to eight hours. Raymonds, you to Chay, 58 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: you're the swanky, high flying defense lawyer. Don't you get 59 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: out there with your dope clients and go play golf 60 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: all day? Long. I mean, isn't that what the criminal 61 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: defense business is all about. That's where we meet some 62 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 1: of our best clients out there. On it is a 63 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: young lady that it's an athlete like as this young 64 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: lady I was at the time. She could probably walk 65 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: a eighteen whole course and a couple of hours. I 66 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: would say, uh, because she's you know, she's a professional athlete, 67 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: in great shape, and probably in the middle of the day, 68 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,119 Speaker 1: there's not a whole lot of golfers ahead of earth, 69 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: not like a busy Saturday morning at a fan but 70 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: it was the morning. Let me ask you a couple 71 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: of pointed questions for those of us non golfers. Um, 72 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: the last time I had a golf ball, let's say, Raymond. 73 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: It was during the Jodi Arias trial, and I would 74 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: take the twins in my spare time when I wasn't 75 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: in the courthouse to a place called cracker Jack's and 76 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: they had a golf Well, I don't know what you 77 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: call it. You stand there in a line with a 78 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: bunch of other people on either side of you, and 79 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: you hit golf balls into a net far away. Oh, 80 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't guess. Goofy golf, A k A 81 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: putt put counts so right? How long does it take 82 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: to play a game of golf? Again, it depends how 83 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: eighteen holes, how busy the course is ahead of you, 84 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: and are you playing in a foursome where everybody's got 85 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: a hit? Uh? That's that could be as you said, 86 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: the three to five hour endeavor a solo golfer. Uh 87 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: as ms Uh. This young lady was who was an athlete, 88 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: and it's not out there drinking beers, you know, guy 89 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: golf and telling jokes. She was working on her game, 90 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: which means hit the ball, get to the ball, hit 91 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,239 Speaker 1: the next ball, keep moving along, uh walking or maybe 92 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: with a card. So I would say that her exposure. 93 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: In other words, how long was she had on the 94 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: course from start to potential completion would be two hours 95 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: too and a half hours For the rest of us 96 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: Saturday morning golfers, it's a four to five hour uh, 97 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: and we're trying not to go home to our wives. 98 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: We want to stay out on the course and uh 99 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: tell dirty jokes and smoke cigars and drink beer and 100 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 1: and tell everybody we were a scratch golfer. So no 101 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: pun intended. So I think she was probably out there 102 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: for about two hours. Okay, now I know why I 103 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: never played golf. Okay, Um, we have some indications she 104 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 1: had only been out there. Well we we know from 105 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: what Judah Chase telling us is two hours or less. 106 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 1: But I have reason to believe it's less than that. 107 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: Even that was an outside figure. What I'm trying to 108 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: figure out, it's what happened to this young Iowa student 109 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: murdered on a golf course. Listen to more than I'm 110 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: amore called have all white female wearing a black under 111 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: armoured port broad flat skirt. That's here to see if 112 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: you only to attempt terry little her from the water 113 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: at that point, happy to it can We got duncan 114 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: and I headed that way. I am on the far 115 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: north end of whole nine at the pond on the 116 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: north end of the I'm gonna stand by, and I 117 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: pulled the female up to the thing. Yeah, we'll need 118 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: think that's just down here. Um, we'll need to come 119 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: to harry A pretty much. This place, Cold Water Golf 120 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: Links is is absolutely beautiful. I'm taking a look at 121 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: it right now, perfectly manicured. You would never have a 122 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: clue that a murder was about to go down to 123 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: Karen Smith, forensics expert. We have reason to believe that 124 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: she was out in the open for really only about 125 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: thirty minutes less. What does that tell you about her 126 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: killer willing to attack out in the open on a 127 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: golf course. Well, it was certainly a crime of opportunity, Nancy. 128 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: This is somebody who was either watching her, or a 129 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: state or lived nearby. Um. You know when you golf 130 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: courses normally are closed facility, they're spencing around it. You 131 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: have a clubhouse, you have people either keying off in 132 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: front of you or putting behind you. So this person 133 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: whoever did this was either watching her or had seen 134 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: her prior. That is my opinion in this case. I mean, 135 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 1: she's a celebrity in the golf world. There's no telling 136 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: how many people have seen her. I mean, Ray, when 137 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: you look at a professional golf tournament, let's just say 138 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 1: the Masters, the sidelines are packed. Do you want to 139 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: tell me there's not one freaky stalker dude in there 140 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: watching these women out there playing golf. Not even one 141 00:08:54,440 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: of course. And you know the predators find the prey. Uh, 142 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: they know where the weak length, the the zebra at 143 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,719 Speaker 1: the end of the pack, so to speak, is and 144 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 1: here is a Now I agree with you, Nancy, and 145 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: I wish the world we all do was a place 146 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: that was safe for women by themselves and young children. 147 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: But we have to be realistic that there are predators 148 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 1: out there and they know where to go. Now, a 149 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: golf course, as you said, a beautiful course, and as 150 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: was pointed out, probably surrounded by fencing, perhaps as we 151 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: have here in Metcha Atlanta. The course is surrounded by 152 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,719 Speaker 1: beautiful neighborhoods that are gated. She had to have come 153 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,599 Speaker 1: through the clubhouse usually to start, so there will be 154 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,959 Speaker 1: a check in time that she walked through the clubhouse 155 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: to get to the first t or, as I think 156 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: Chuck pointed out, she may have been playing what's called 157 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: the back nine where she started in the middle of 158 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: the course. Perhaps there's a challenging uh you know, a 159 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: hole that had required certain skill sets that she was 160 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: working on. This This lady was not golfing for entertainment. 161 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: She this is her profession. This is this is what 162 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: she does. So she was out there working and concentrating 163 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: to get better. But as was ap Aptlete pointed out, 164 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 1: this is a clearly a crime of opportunity. It's um 165 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: good holding back tears. Harley Thornton has a hard time 166 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: finding his words. A Monday morning here at Coldwater Golf 167 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: Links and Ames turned into a traumatic experience. Thornton and 168 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 1: three friends were golfing when they met a young woman 169 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: who he describes as an experienced golfer in her twenties. 170 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: Very nice young lady came up with a push guard 171 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: and uh, we've all agreed that she should go in 172 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: front of us. I knew should be a lot faster 173 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: and a bunch of old men. But when they got 174 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: to the ninth hole, he says, the woman's golf clubs 175 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: and cell phone. We're sitting there, but she was nowhere inside. 176 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: This was very strange and not right. There's no reason 177 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 1: to abandon your clubs in the middle of the fairway. 178 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: Thornton says he called the clubhouse, who told him they 179 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: hadn't seen her either was his next call. Ames police 180 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: interviewed Thornton to get a grasp on the timeline. We 181 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,599 Speaker 1: sorry about then when I called the clubhouse and it 182 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 1: was ten ten. He also described the scene at the 183 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,839 Speaker 1: ninth hole, saying he found several teas scattered about. He 184 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: believes was the victims golf hat could easily have been 185 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: where she was apprehended and struggled enough to lose the 186 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 1: ballmarker off of the tap. Orton says he didn't see 187 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: anything suspicious or hear any screams. With hundreds of apartments 188 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: in plain view across the street, he doesn't understand how 189 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: something like this could happen ten o'clock in the morning 190 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: with whole view of anyone that wanted to look. That's 191 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: a very brazen act, you're hearing, golfer Harley Thornton speaking 192 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,559 Speaker 1: to our friend Laura Chrell at case C C I. 193 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 1: The golfing world is stunned as a bright lights life 194 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: brought to a sudden end this twenty two year old 195 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: young pro. She I call her a pro. She had 196 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,199 Speaker 1: just one of the European Ladies Amateur in Slovakia. She 197 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: is an Iowa College student, and that when in Europe, 198 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 1: secured her invitation to next year's Women's British Open. That 199 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,959 Speaker 1: is a huge, big deal, the British Open in the 200 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: golf world. She also had just advanced last month to 201 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: Stage two of the LPGA Tour qualifying tournament. She's on fire. 202 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: Her family and friends stunned at the news she is 203 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: murdered on a Monday morning and broad day light on 204 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: a golf course. To Dr Jane Gorniac, Fulton County medical examiner, 205 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 1: very well known in her field. Dr Gorniac, thank you 206 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: for being with us. Dr Gorniac. We have heard the 207 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:04,319 Speaker 1: phrase crime of opportunity thrown around quite often, But is 208 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: there any way when you are conducting an autopsy that 209 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 1: you can tell that, No, we can't so the crime 210 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: of opportunity. When we go to the scene, which in 211 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: this case will be the golf course, we take into accounts, 212 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,599 Speaker 1: like everybody's saying, the time of day where she was 213 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 1: found compared to where her her stuff is found, her 214 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,599 Speaker 1: golf clubs, her hat, things like that. But just like 215 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: any other citizens, we can say, yes that it appears 216 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: to be a climate opportunity, but from the medical legal standpoint, 217 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: we can't say that. So. Raymond Judaica Atlanta defense attorney 218 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: joining me, what will they be looking for to determine 219 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: any potential motive? Well, I think that one thing. First 220 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 1: of all, there's going to be anticipated an enormous amount 221 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 1: of DNA exchange between the perpetrator and the victim. This 222 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 1: is a very physical one on one UH fight that 223 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: led to her death. I would anticipate there may be 224 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: defensive wounds on the perpetrator, that there would be contact 225 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: and skin exchange and perhaps blood exchange, fingernails scratching, things 226 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: like that, that type of a fight, especially with this 227 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: young lady who was an athlete, who probably would not 228 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: end to Keep in mind, why is it a clime 229 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: of opportunity, Because let's just take the nine one one caller, 230 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: a middle aged gentleman that was probably in a foursome. 231 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: The perpetrator is not going to go after those four guys. 232 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: He's gonna pick off the single female out there by herself, 233 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: pulling her bag, walking the course. So that's that there 234 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: are a type of facts make it what I would 235 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: allege as a clime of opportunity, where the perpetrator was 236 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: looking for the weakest, most, the easy, what he perceived 237 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: to be the easiest victim out there. But boy, there's 238 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: going to be a I anticipate a lot of DNA 239 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: exchange between the body of the victim UH and the 240 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: alleged perpetrator. Right, you're absolutely corrected to Karen Smith joining 241 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: me veteran forensics expert Karen. Not only is there going 242 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: to be really hand to hand mutual combat, as Ray 243 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: jud to Chase pointed out, but also there is very 244 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: strong evidence she was sex assaulted. And I'm telling you 245 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: I think that's the motive. Still, that doesn't tell me 246 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: who the purpose unless I can get a DNA match. 247 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: It could be a stalk, or it could be an 248 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: ex boyfriend, it could be anybody. But what I'm saying 249 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: is that's the motive. I would think. I agree with you. 250 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: You know, there's a reason that this perpetrator and I'm 251 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: gonna say it's a man uh shows a woman. Uh. 252 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: You know, he may have been off a little bit 253 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: more than he could chew if she fought back, which 254 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: you know it sounds to me like she did at 255 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: this point. Yes, they will do a sexual assault kit 256 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: and find out that there's a new DNA uh from 257 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: her body, and they'll run it through the code of 258 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: system to see if there's any matches that are already 259 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: in the system. If not, they're going to have to 260 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: find a perpetrator and then get a known sample and 261 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: compare it with that. Police say that Celia had broken 262 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: down in tears when she found out she had been 263 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: named the school's two thousand eighteen Female Athlete of the Year. 264 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: That is incredible, but now people are mourning her and 265 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: planning a funeral. So back to you, Dr Jane Gourney 266 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: at Fulton County Medical Examiner. When you realize, I guess, 267 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: because you find a body partially or totally nude, that 268 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: the motive is a sex attack, how does that change 269 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: the autopsy? Dr Gorne act, when we're there's a possibility 270 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: that a sexual salt has occurred based on how the 271 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: body was found, whether they're partially closed or there's some 272 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: preliminary circumstances, we need to know that and the police 273 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: usually tells us that when we go to the scene 274 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: for the initial death investigation. So at the scene we 275 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: will bag the hands and also when the prior to 276 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: the autopsy, which is very important for us to note, 277 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: is we will do a sexual sault kit which includes 278 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: um getting hair samples, head hair, pubic hair, fingernails, scrapings, 279 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: um swabs of the mouth, the vaginal area, the wrectum um. 280 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: So then we will feel that and then send it 281 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: off to you know, through the police or a climb 282 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: lab to be tested. But it's very important that we know, 283 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 1: so we're not rinsing off a body and losing evidence 284 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: prior to collecting those samples. This woman, this young girl, Celia, 285 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: was the athlete of the Year at Iowa State University. 286 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: She was just a few classes away from getting her 287 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: civil engineering degree. Is that right, Chuck Roberts, It is 288 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: it is. She was just a few months away from that. 289 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: As you pointed out, she was scheduled to go to 290 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: Europe and play again. Ranked sixty nine antionally by Golf Week, 291 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: ending her collegiate career with a fourth straight n C 292 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: double a regional appearance, and won the Big twelve team 293 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: tournament as well. So accomplished. Is certainly an understable not 294 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: afraid to attack her in daylight, out on an open 295 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: golf out on an open golf course. Take a listen 296 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: to this. Familiarity with the golf course can be a 297 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 1: big advantage. Bark Winter Rosamine has played here at Coldwater 298 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: Names countless time. She probably knows every nook and cranny 299 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: of this course. This was just a second time that 300 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: she had played at the Dallas Athletic Club. The first 301 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: time as a freshman, she shot a career worst eighty six. 302 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: This time With the Big twelve tournament on the line, 303 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: she shot a final round sixty nine to win the 304 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: title by three strokes. Yeah, I've actually been talking about 305 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 1: it with course oh year, I'm always like, oh, we're 306 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: playing big tools. Here's just like stopping yourself or are 307 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: you You're gonna do just fine? For out about freshman year, 308 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: she hated this golf course, which also is amazing because 309 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: a lot of times it's hard for golfers to get 310 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: over that when they have bad thoughts about it. Though, 311 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: that in itself was a huge accomplishment for her mind 312 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: over matter. That's how Bark winner Rosamina has grown to 313 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: become so strong mentally that when she arrived at the 314 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: golf course Sunday for that final round, she celebrated weather 315 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: conditions that most players dread. When I started practicing, I 316 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: noticed that I'm super windy, and I love that. I'm 317 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: a really good wind player. So I texted my family 318 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 1: right before playing, I'm like, mom, it's super windy. This 319 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 1: is great. When a lot of people kind of look 320 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: at it and say, oh, man, I'm not going to 321 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: play well the day, it's kind of like, she says, well, 322 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: nobody else is going to play well, but I am 323 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 1: a break in the case in the murder of a 324 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: golf superstar. A young girl, an Iowa State University student, 325 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 1: just hours away, student, hours away from getting her degree 326 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: in civil engineering, brutally sexually attacked and murdered in play 327 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 1: ain site broad Daylite on an open golf course. Her 328 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: life brutally ended there. And what we're learning is the 329 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: guy that is now under suspicion is Colin Richards. With 330 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: a fifty page rap sheet. A fifty page rap sheet, 331 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: he has gotten second, third, fourth, and fifth chances. And 332 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: now we are left with the horrible realization that the 333 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: justice system exercise the leniency so often that they actually 334 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: freed Celia Barkin, Arisonmania's alleged killer early. This guy should 335 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: have been behind bars. Chuck Roberts, Crime online dot Com 336 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: investigative reporter. What are we learning in the last hours 337 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: about her murder? We are learning that Colin Richards, who 338 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: was living in a camp on the inn, a tent 339 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: not far from the golf course, told in acquaintance the 340 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: day before that he had quote an urge to rape 341 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,719 Speaker 1: and kill a woman that is embodied in the criminal 342 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: complaint um. As you pointed out, He's been charged with 343 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: abusing a girlfriend, stealing a pickup truck, using a baseball 344 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: bat to smash a car window many times in the 345 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: criminal system. But he was living outside that golf course 346 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: and dogs tracked his scent and found Richards with fresh 347 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: scratches on his face consistent with fighting, and a deep 348 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: laceration in his left hand, which he tried to conceal. 349 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: I am just sick, sick about this to Dr Jane Gorniac, 350 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: Fulton County Medical Examiner. You know Dr Gorniac raising the twins. 351 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,479 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I put all my time when 352 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: I'm not working, all my energy, all my love, all 353 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: my hopes, all my dreams in them. And you know, 354 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: I guess, like other middle class people all across the country, 355 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: you want your child to succeed. Why not for success itself, 356 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: but so their life will be easier for them, To 357 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: get them through a good high school, so they can 358 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: get into a college or maybe a graduate program so 359 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,360 Speaker 1: they can then get a job that can sustain them. 360 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: I know her parents were so proud here. She is 361 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: not only a star golfer at her young age of 362 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: twenty two, but getting your civil engineering degree, and she's 363 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:34,479 Speaker 1: physically beautiful and by all accounts, a wonderful person, bubbly happy, 364 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: thrilled that her hard work had paid off. So when 365 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 1: all the parents dreams are just coming true, they find 366 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: their daughter is murdered in such a brutal way. What 367 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: does it mean to you, Dr Gorniac that he, the 368 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: alleged perp, is covered in scratches and lacerations. Well, from 369 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: the legal side or the medical legal side, the investigation side, 370 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: we have to know compare her her hand, so she 371 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: has any um injuries to her hands, fringer nails broken 372 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: that could be consistent with him being scratched by her. 373 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: So if we can link up injuries from her body 374 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 1: to injuries on his body, then it's it's it's saying 375 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: that he was in close proximity um to have injured this, 376 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: this beautiful young lady, you know Raymond Judo Chay On 377 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: October of two thousand seventeen, that's not even a year ago. 378 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:35,719 Speaker 1: The Judicial District Department of Correction Services document Richards. They 379 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: document this guy and they stay Mr Richards has not 380 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: been successful on probation for any length of time. They 381 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: tell the judge he's in violation and he should since 382 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: been the rest serve the rest of a two year sentence. 383 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 1: He gets out early anyway, and now this he did 384 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 1: not serve the sentence they ordered. They asked the judge 385 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: too to give and now he's out. I mean, how 386 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: do judges do it and live with it? Right? Uh? 387 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: It is probably the nightmare that any sitting judge has 388 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: is to pick up the paper for us old timers, 389 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: or a front turn on the computer to see judge 390 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: released defendant early who then commits horrific crime. And we 391 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 1: have a terrible story just like this here at Metro Atlanta. Recently, 392 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: we're a very good judge, a former prosecutor as a 393 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 1: superior court judge allowed somebody out on a bond that 394 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: had been charged a young man eighteen who committed a 395 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: murder right here in Metro Atlanta at a country club 396 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: where the victim had been leaving a wedding party. Uh. 397 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: It's just awful, and so every judge and and this 398 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: is why you know, some people are cut out for 399 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: judge ships and some are not. They have to sleep 400 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: with this every night when they put their head on 401 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: the pillow. Enormous stress. Now as this gentleman's record appears, 402 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 1: to to show he is a serial criminal, he would 403 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: have gotten out sooner or later, Nancy. And from if 404 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: I can say one thing, if I can as someone 405 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: who has cross examined probably at this point thousands of 406 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: police officers and investigators and detectives, and uh, don't I 407 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: would suggest that they don't push too hard to squeeze 408 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: a confession or a statement out of this alleged perpetrator, because, 409 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: as the good doctor pointed out our medical examiner, there's 410 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 1: going to be so much potential DNA evidence and exchange 411 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: lit the DNA proved the case, rather than a statement 412 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 1: that may not be properly mirandized or could be challenged, 413 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: or perhaps this person is not of sufficient medical mental acuity. 414 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: You know, there's so many challenges for us to be here. 415 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 1: We go where we go with them all defense because 416 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: he just told a fellow resident he wanted to rape 417 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: a one. Okay. And you know, Raymond, you were around 418 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 1: into practicing actually as a prosecutor in a nearby jurisdiction 419 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: when I was prosecuting, and I guess you recall how 420 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: I would labor emotionally over every case taking a plea 421 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: because I look at a guy and think Wow. You 422 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: know if I let this guy have probation and then 423 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: he gets out and hurt somebody, kills, somebody, rapes somebody 424 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: that's on me and it literally tortured me, I would 425 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 1: be sick to my stomach, throw up the stay awaken. 426 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: Trying to do the right thing. It's tortuous. Do you 427 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 1: remember that, I do, Nancy, and I think even criminal 428 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: defense flayers believe it or not on these these challenging cases. 429 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: We're citizens, we have loved ones, we live in the community, 430 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: our kids take school buses, and our pential predators were 431 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: concerned about it. But when I'm really getting at here 432 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: is there's so much physical evidence that can be presented 433 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: in court by great experts like our medical examiner. Don't 434 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: try to squeeze a confession and out of this this perpetrator, 435 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: this alleged perpetrator up early. Get the physical evidence first, 436 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: and then build your case from that. But you know, 437 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 1: as we've seen in all the live you know what 438 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: I say, you can't ever overdo it. You have one 439 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: swing at the ball, one bite of the apple, get 440 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: the confession, and seek the death penalty. There's no death. 441 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: I don't believe it is a death penalty state answer. 442 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,719 Speaker 1: When we talk about violent crime, it's almost as if 443 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: we're drinking from a fire hydrant. It's just too much, 444 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: too fast, too furious. If you have heard about the 445 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: murder of Jessica Chambers, don't miss the new docuseries on Oxygen, 446 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: The true story of a teen girl cheerleader Mississippi, Burned Alive, 447 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: The story of the man now accused of the heinous crime. 448 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: Is the right guy on trial? Who is he? And 449 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 1: who was Jessica Chambers? How does such a horrific crime 450 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: even occur? More questions than answers. It's a case that 451 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: has captured national headlines, taken over social media, and has 452 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: now left and is leaving a small town divided. It's 453 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: a musty TV event with exclusive interviews that take you 454 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: inside the investigation as a search for answers and justice 455 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: goes on. Don't miss it. It is unspeakable crime, the 456 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: killing on Jessica Chamber. Saturday's seven sixth Central on Oxygen, 457 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: the new network for Crime. The Queen will have some 458 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: words tomorrow. I'm not talking about the Queen of England. 459 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 1: Those are chilling words from an email sent to an 460 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: ex boyfriend by his jilted lover his former girlfriend, who 461 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: we now believe ordered a fake pregnancy tummy from Amazon, 462 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: and a sustained and ongoing stalking campaign against her boyfriend, 463 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: including at his place of work. I Nancy Grace, this 464 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: is Crime Stories, Thank you for being with us. Can 465 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: you imagine having your girlfriend or boyfriend calling your place 466 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: of business and trashing you being all crazy? Chuck Roberts, 467 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, Let's just start at 468 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: the beginning. Who is Jessica Nordquist? Jessica Nordquist, twenty five 469 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: years old from small town America, lands a great job 470 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: at an ad agency in London and immediately hooks up 471 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: with Mark Weeks, who lives in London himself. Uh, and 472 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: they started Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Chuck. When 473 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: you say hook up, do you mean dating? Do you 474 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: mean their friends or do you just mean they're having sleepovers? 475 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: Former lover I would say they were pretty hot and heavy. 476 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: She arrived in July. Uh, they start dating the next 477 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: month and they break up, um in November, and that's 478 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: when the stocking campaign a against her ex boyfriend began. 479 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: When you say stalking campaign, what do you mean by that? 480 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: She insisted that he raped her. She went online and 481 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: said that she actually went to the hospital to purportedly 482 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: have an abortion of his baby, and he went with her. 483 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: I don't know how that came out, but she claimed 484 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: that she was eight weeks pregnant. Uh. She also apparently 485 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: told people she was about to take an overdose. She 486 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: was actually found to be home and fine, and uh. 487 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: She sends him threatening emails, referring to herself as the 488 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: queen and the game of chess, and you just stop 489 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: right there, Chuck Roberts So pretends to be pregnant, complete 490 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: with a fake pregnancy belly from Amazon, then calling and 491 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: threatening him at work, claiming she had to go to 492 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: the hospital to have an abortion, even taking him with her, 493 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: threatening an overdose when she was at home and fine. 494 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: When people checked in on her, I got to go 495 00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: to a shrink because this is making my teeth. Her 496 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: joining me of l A. Dr Bethany Marshall, Bethany, he 497 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: helped me out here, nutjob extraordinary, referring to herself as 498 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: the queen in a game of chess. Seriously, well, not 499 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: only was she stalking him, but she wanted to have 500 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: ultimate power over him. I mean she really wanted to 501 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: make sure. I don't get that, Bethany, Why I want 502 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: control and dominion. I want him to have his own life. Well, 503 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: that's because you're a rational person that has a life 504 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,719 Speaker 1: and wants him to go do his things. This lady's 505 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: Craig Cray. And here's my question. Number one, why do 506 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: men like girls who are Craig crazy? Because some of 507 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: them do. Number two? Do you remember the show Glee 508 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: that was on TV and the I'm Nember sorry I 509 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: was working those teen years. My kids and I love 510 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: that show. So we were watching Glee and the wife 511 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: of the Glee teacher actually did exactly this and ordered 512 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: a fake pregnant tummy. And guess what in that show, 513 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: she was crazy too. What is it true, Dr Bethany? 514 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: Do in like crazy women? They liked them at first 515 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: because the craziness feels exciting, stimulating, like the world's like 516 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: a fun place. But then what happens is when the 517 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: woman starts stalking them. That's when they run to my 518 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: therapy office and they start complaining. And you know, trapping 519 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: a man through pregnancy as a very common ploy for 520 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: women who have borderline personality disorder or not even just 521 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: through getting pregnant, but through pseudoscisis, which is a false pregnancy. 522 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: I've seen that in my office before. I have never 523 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: ever heard of somebody ordering an actual baby bump like 524 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: as the reporter said, who knows what happened when she 525 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: went to the to the hospital. I mean she puts 526 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: her foot in the stirrups, the guy goes to examine 527 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: her and whoops, there's a piece of foam up there. 528 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: I mean, this is obviously not a very thought out ploy. Now, 529 00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: she allegedly pasted a series of messages online, one accusing 530 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: him of rape. Uh. The state also claims she ordered 531 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: this fake baby bump from Amazon. That's pretty easy to trace. 532 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: Another issue is that she would follow him around the 533 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: office before the breakup, leaving him notes on his desk 534 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: on his bicycle. We also are learning that she tells 535 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: police that both she and the victim had been the 536 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: victims of another stalker. I mean, it's lie on top 537 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: of lie on top of lie, Kenya Johnson. The easy 538 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: part for the prosecutors that a lot of these allegations 539 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: stem from emails and texts and notes. That's fairly easy 540 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: to introduce into court if you lay the right foundation. Absolutely, 541 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: the courts have caught up with technology and you're able 542 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: to lay the foundation to prove reliability of the origin 543 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: of those communications. And so once they're able to do that, 544 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: that can come into court. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, 545 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: Chuck Robert. But it seems like they break up and 546 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: then she asked if they could rekindle their romance. He 547 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 1: rejected her, and then she sends him on Instagram saying, quote, 548 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: I'm telling people at work ahead an abortion and if 549 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: they ask with who elsa you? Is this true? It's 550 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: absolutely true? And it comes out because in January she 551 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: was arrested and her phone and iPad were seized and 552 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 1: all that came out. And also she allegedly began sending 553 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: messages to herself and the ex boyfriend to make it 554 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: look as though they were coming from a third party. 555 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 1: One of them was setting up a meeting on January. 556 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: You're going to meet me at Shoreditch Grind Cafe. If 557 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: neither of you show, we're going to release your past 558 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,840 Speaker 1: secrets around the office, we will come for you. Okay. 559 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: So now she's pretending that there is yet another stalker 560 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: stalking them both. And guess what the penalty is for 561 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: not showing up that the so called stalk her is 562 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,240 Speaker 1: going to release his the boyfriend's secrets at the office. 563 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: And I'm looking at a photo Dr Bethany. She's all 564 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: smiley looking with really kind of kind of cute he's 565 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: got two black eyes in the photo. Wonder where they 566 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 1: came from? Wonder where? Well, you know, you've heard me 567 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 1: talk so much about the psychology of stalking, but it 568 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: really applies here again that the psychology is that the 569 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: perpetrator feels that there's a unique and special relationship with 570 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: the victim, even when there's evidence to the contrary, or 571 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,320 Speaker 1: there's no evidence to support the fact that there's a 572 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: unique and special relationship, And so the perpetrator goes after 573 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,320 Speaker 1: the victim to punish the victim for perceived rejection. And 574 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: I can see that written all over this case, that 575 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: she imagines that they're an item, that they're still together. 576 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,879 Speaker 1: She's obsessed with him, and every time he doesn't return 577 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: a phone call or a text, or doesn't like something 578 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 1: on Instagram, and then she wants to punish him for 579 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: the rejection, and the the punishment keeps escalating and escalating 580 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: till it rises to the level of criminality. Well, what 581 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: we have learned Ashley Willcott is allegedly police found searches 582 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: for quote fake babies on her account and a Silicon 583 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,720 Speaker 1: baby bump was ordered from Amazon. She had also researched 584 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: whether people contract where emails are sent from Okay, and 585 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: then she goes on to send the boyfriend raunchy text 586 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: messages about her love life, claiming she hooked up with 587 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: some guy that she met in Soho. So I guess 588 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: that's to try to make him jealous Ashley. That's what 589 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,879 Speaker 1: I would think, right Nancy, And so I think she's 590 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,800 Speaker 1: engaging in behavior that she thinks can get him to 591 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: come back. In her mind. I don't think she thinks 592 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: it's talking. She thinks if I do all these things, 593 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: I can manipulate his behavior so that he comes back 594 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: to me and he's jealous and he wants to be 595 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: with me. I think. So the point that was made 596 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: is that that rises to the level of a crime, 597 00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: and she's cross the line. What does it mean? Do 598 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: daughter Beth? And I think she keeps referring to herself 599 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: as the queen, as in a chess game, like if 600 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: you can't protect the queen, she's the most valuable piece 601 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: on the board. She protects your king, blah blah blah. Well, 602 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: it tells me two things. One is that she has 603 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 1: a very idealized view of herself. Um that she imagines 604 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: herself to be the queen, and who has the ultimate 605 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: power of the queen. Everybody does her bidding. So she's 606 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: trying to have power over her victim and if if 607 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,800 Speaker 1: he doesn't do her bidding, heads will roll. And so 608 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: this is the punishment aspect, and this is the two 609 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: black eyes that you see that if the queen doesn't 610 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: get her way, that there's going to be punishment that 611 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 1: will be doled out. Okay, guys, we wait for justice 612 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: to unfold. I mean, what a nut job. But don't 613 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: get me wrong, this woman is not legally insane. Poor guy. 614 00:37:54,120 --> 00:38:01,240 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace signing off goodbye, Friend one.