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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Devil's Dan horror. A mom

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Speaker 1: and a dad both slaughtered trying to protect their little

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Speaker 1: daughters from the hiking trail killer. This as the FBI

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Speaker 1: joins in the manhunt. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: You guys, it's just as Devilston. You still a relative

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Speaker 2: hack the mail and a femail on Devilston hiking trail

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Speaker 2: and then took off from a small black sports car

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Speaker 2: with tables. Withe and we suspect the suspect of injuries

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Speaker 2: due to the witness seeing the.

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Speaker 1: Suspect, striking fear in every parent's heart. I just got

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Speaker 1: back from taking the twins hiking. These two parents with

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Speaker 1: their two little girls slaughtered at the Devil's Den State Park.

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Speaker 1: As we go to air a major update in a

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Speaker 1: search for the per that allegedly murdered a mom and

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Speaker 1: dad on a popular hiking trail, straight out to Crime

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Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporters Sydney Summer, what happened?

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Speaker 3: Arkansas State Police just released a possible photo of the suspect. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: it's from behind, so we're just seeing the back of

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Speaker 3: his head.

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Speaker 4: He's standing on.

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Speaker 3: What looks like the edge of a cliff, looking out

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Speaker 3: over at an overlook, and the description matches what they

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Speaker 3: have been putting out there. He's wearing long black pants

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Speaker 3: a long sleeved black shirt. It looks like there's a

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Speaker 3: design on the black of the shirt. It looks like

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Speaker 3: it's a red square with blue filling the border. He's

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Speaker 3: carrying a black backpack and what looks like a duffel

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Speaker 3: bag and his baseball cap in a light can. He

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Speaker 3: does appear to have sandy blonde or light brown hair.

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Speaker 3: ASP didn't give us much information on where they got

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Speaker 3: this photo. Maybe another hiker on the trail who just

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Speaker 3: happened to catch the suspect in this position. And it's

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Speaker 3: now zoomed in in a better photo, so we're unsure

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Speaker 3: of where exactly they got this, but just so unfortunate

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Speaker 3: that it doesn't have his face.

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Speaker 1: The parents were attacked and murdered with the children present,

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Speaker 1: With the children present, Why why attack these two loving

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Speaker 1: parents again? With me in all star panels straight out

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Speaker 1: to Dannette Sosa, she is joining us from Devil's Den.

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Speaker 1: They're in Arkansas formerly knw A Nanette, thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us.

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Speaker 4: What do we know at this hour?

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Speaker 5: As far as the park is concerned, all the trails

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Speaker 5: are closed here at Devil's Den devil Den's State Park.

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Speaker 5: The police and FBI has now helped in this search.

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Speaker 5: Extra caution has been taken. More patrol is unseen. However,

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Speaker 5: we're only allowed through the exterior of the park. As

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Speaker 5: you can see, there are two entrances. This is one

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Speaker 5: entrance you see the sign behind me, and then there's

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Speaker 5: another more toward the north end of this Parkette.

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Speaker 1: Did you just tell me there are only two entrance exits.

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Speaker 5: It's a highway that runs through here. When I say

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Speaker 5: ingress and egress or entrances and exits, So you have

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Speaker 5: a main highway you come off, you have an option

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Speaker 5: to come off the main interstate, which is Interstate forty nine.

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Speaker 5: Then you take a smaller highway seventy four. Then that

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Speaker 5: will connect you to two highways here toward this particular park,

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Speaker 5: which is Highway two twenty or the Highway one seventy four.

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Speaker 5: So those are the two and they kind of they

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Speaker 5: can loop around and you can go on or off

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Speaker 5: through those highways.

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Speaker 4: Right, Okay, that's important.

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Speaker 1: I'm gathering that there are only two entrance exits formal

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Speaker 1: entrance and exits. But let me go straight out. Guys

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Speaker 1: joining me at the saying Devil's Dan State Park. Now

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Speaker 1: to an expert, Chris Adams, swamp survival expert, environmental educator.

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Speaker 1: You can find him at Turtleman on Facebook. Renowned survivalist. Chris,

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Speaker 1: you have studied the terrain and when I was asking

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Speaker 1: in that SOSA, are there only two entrants in exits?

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Speaker 1: The reason I'm asking that, obviously is because I want

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Speaker 1: to find out who is the perp and if he

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Speaker 1: did exit, those are the two formal entry and exits, right,

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Speaker 1: if he was by car, that's where we're going to

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Speaker 1: get an id on him. However, as you know from

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Speaker 1: working at multiple state parks, and some of them extremely

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Speaker 1: extremely tough terrain, you can walk in and out of

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Speaker 1: a state park practically anywhere, right, Chris Adams.

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Speaker 6: If you know how to get in and out of

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Speaker 6: a place, you can get in and out fairly easy.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back to that last shot where it was

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Speaker 1: describing the terrain. Guys, you are seeing the entrance and

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Speaker 1: exit and it looks pretty idyllic, but the terrain is

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Speaker 1: actually very very difficult. Chris Adams, familiar with this terrain,

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Speaker 1: Describe it for me, Chris, this guy, if he did

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Speaker 1: not leave so one of the formal entry exits, which

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Speaker 1: we believe he did, but we don't know that.

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Speaker 4: What would he be up against now?

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Speaker 1: Crooked steep, no through trucks, RV trailers, only certain links

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Speaker 1: he can go in because of the terrain.

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Speaker 4: Tell me about the terrain, Chris Adams.

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Speaker 6: Well, unlike my home, it is anything but flat. I

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Speaker 6: mean there's rock formations, there's caverns, there's creeks, wooded areas,

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Speaker 6: even waterfalls. You know, that's the perfect area for disaster

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Speaker 6: if you're walking through there and roll an ankle. I mean,

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Speaker 6: you've got to know the terrain to be able to

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Speaker 6: navigate the terrain, and this is not easy terrain to

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Speaker 6: navigate by any means.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that, Chris Adams joining me now,

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Speaker 1: Ron Bateman, former sheriff at inn Arunda County in Maryland,

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Speaker 1: former homicide and undercover narc You know, Ron, you're especially

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Speaker 1: equipped for today because you studied and worked the Rachel

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Speaker 1: Warren Hiker trail murder. And what Chris Adams just said

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Speaker 1: is extremely important. Did this guy know the area, much

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Speaker 1: like Delphi where Abby and Liberty were murdered on a

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Speaker 1: local trail, nobody would know about it unless you were

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Speaker 1: from there. I suspect this guy knew the terrain really well,

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Speaker 1: and like in the case of Rachel Moore, and that

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Speaker 1: we were just showing on the mom pawtrail that guy

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Speaker 1: lay in.

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Speaker 4: Wait.

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Speaker 1: That's what I think about this guy. Why do I

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Speaker 1: care because maybe somebody saw him way in?

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Speaker 4: What do you think about this perp lying in wait?

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Speaker 1: A mother and a father did, leaving behind three girls,

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Speaker 1: one a team and two eaty beatty children little to

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Speaker 1: grow out without mom and dad.

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Speaker 4: What do you think, Ron?

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Speaker 7: It's horrible And that's the first thing I thought of

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Speaker 7: when I read this case. About Rachel Maren's case. There's

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Speaker 7: so many ways to get in and out of that

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Speaker 7: woods to the mom Pop trail as it is for

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Speaker 7: this situation here. Yeah, there might be two formal ways

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Speaker 7: in and out, but I'm sure there's numerous ways. Like

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Speaker 7: Chris just said, if you know the terrain, you're going

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Speaker 7: to get in and get out. So I'm sure this

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Speaker 7: guy knew where he was going and knew what he

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Speaker 7: planned on doing. And then Nick carried out his acts.

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Speaker 1: And the point of that, angew Lewis is joining me,

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Speaker 1: high profile lawyer, partner Sirce law, former felony prosecutor area.

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Speaker 1: The point is, I'm onto finding this guy. I think

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Speaker 1: a he knew the terrain really well. Like Chris Adams

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Speaker 1: is pointing out, I think he lay in wait, which

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Speaker 1: gives me a bid on who may have seen him,

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Speaker 1: What time did he get there, and why did he

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Speaker 1: identify these two? You know, it's really raaring. You've tried

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Speaker 1: a lot of cases, as have I. For one person

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Speaker 1: to take on two adults and he leaves the children,

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Speaker 1: the children live, they go running, screaming at the top

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Speaker 1: of their lungs, their witnesses. Do I like putting children

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Speaker 1: on the stand?

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Speaker 8: No?

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Speaker 4: I don't. Do you do it when you have to, Yes,

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Speaker 4: you do.

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Speaker 1: But for one guy to take on two adults very peculiar,

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Speaker 1: and I believe he had to know the terrain.

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Speaker 4: Andrea Ninta, You're exactly right.

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Speaker 9: And if you look at the photographs of the husband

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Speaker 9: and father, he does not appear to be a relatively

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Speaker 9: small man. So this guy not only did he know

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Speaker 9: what he was doing, not only was he there prepared

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Speaker 9: but he took on somebody that likely had some force

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Speaker 9: and ability to fight back. Now, you bring up a

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Speaker 9: very good point, right, which is what was the motive here?

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Speaker 5: And two?

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Speaker 9: Was the Were the parents the intended target? We know

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Speaker 9: he certainly intended to kill them, but was he actually

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Speaker 9: after the two young girls similar to a Delphi type

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Speaker 9: situation where he may have been actually looking for young

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Speaker 9: girls to prey upon. We don't know yet, but this

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Speaker 9: whole thing is very unusual and absolutely a horrific rime.

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Speaker 1: Angela Lewis, you say something like that and you expect

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Speaker 1: everybody to just go to sleep tonight, put their head

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Speaker 1: on the pillow and have sweet dreams. Now, we've heard

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Speaker 1: over and over Andrew. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying you're wrong at all, Because what we keep

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Speaker 1: hearing is they died, mom and dad did on a

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Speaker 1: hiking trail, and we keep hearing trying to protect their

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Speaker 1: daughters that had to come from somewhere. We're not hearing

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Speaker 1: they died because they were robbed, or they died because

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Speaker 1: like Rachel Moren, she was brutally sex attacked on the

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Speaker 1: man pawtrail. We're not hearing any of that, but we

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Speaker 1: are hearing they died trying to protect their daughters, and

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Speaker 1: that brings in what you just said, a blood curdling

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Speaker 1: thought that the part was trying to get the girls

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Speaker 1: and the parents fought back and told the girls to

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Speaker 1: run like any parent would do.

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Speaker 9: Andrea, you know, and Nancy is horrible and just unfathomable.

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Speaker 9: It is to really picture that it fits what we're

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Speaker 9: seeing here, because what we know, whether it be from

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Speaker 9: witnesses or maybe even the girls themselves, is that they're

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Speaker 9: reporting that he was injured. So certainly, if mom and

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Speaker 9: dad know that this predator is coming after these young girls,

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Speaker 9: they're going to fight for not only their own lives,

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Speaker 9: but also for their children. And you can certainly see

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Speaker 9: a circumstance where the parents injure him tell the girls

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Speaker 9: to run, as you just noted, and that would really

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Speaker 9: explain exactly what we're hearing from investigators now. Only time

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Speaker 9: will tell. Certainly there are other motives, but that is

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Speaker 9: certainly a chilling one that investigators will have to rule out.

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Speaker 4: Doctor Jeff Gardier is joining us. You know him well.

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Speaker 1: We have been analyzing cases together since I know for

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Speaker 1: a fact nineteen ninety seven clinical psychologist Professor Truro College

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Speaker 1: of Osteopathic Medicine called America's psychologist, Doctor Jeff. You and

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Speaker 1: I have studied so many cases, and when we were

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Speaker 1: covering a case together at court TV, we talked about

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Speaker 1: parents that tell their children that turn and attack the

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Speaker 1: attacker and tell.

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Speaker 4: The children run.

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Speaker 1: And the more we're analyzing this case, the more that's

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Speaker 1: becoming a parent. The two little girls did that, they ran,

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Speaker 1: doctor Jeff, and I think it is a child this young, anyway,

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Speaker 1: impulse to stay with the parents, even though the parents

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Speaker 1: are getting slaughtered.

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Speaker 4: They'll stay right there.

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Speaker 1: They might scream, they might run around, but they won't

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Speaker 1: leave unless they're told run.

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Speaker 4: And that is what parents are told.

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Speaker 1: They're instructed to tell their children if the family's under attack.

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Speaker 1: I told my children that when they were little, and

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Speaker 1: I still tell them that if anything happens, run, leave

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Speaker 1: your father and I leave me, and run and go

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Speaker 1: get help, in other words, get to safety. Do you

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Speaker 1: think that's what happened, Doctor Jiff.

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Speaker 10: There is quite that possibility, Nancy, And you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 10: When we tell our kids to run, it's for their

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Speaker 10: own safety, but it's also to get help. And what

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Speaker 10: we're seeing here is there is the possibility that this killer,

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Speaker 10: whether premeditated or not, was an individual with this kind

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Speaker 10: of struggle going on, who was acting with intense emotional state,

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Speaker 10: rage or frustration, and that was also very scary to

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Speaker 10: the children. But that impulse of the parents to protect

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Speaker 10: their children by any means, of course, is admirable and

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Speaker 10: what we want to see in parents. They sacrifice their lives,

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Speaker 10: it seems. Here.

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Speaker 1: Back to our special guest Chris Adams aka Turtleman, who

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Speaker 1: is a wildlife survivalist. Chris, we are learning that the

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Speaker 1: little girls said said that they ran until they couldn't

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Speaker 1: hear their mom screaming anymore. Now it was and in

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Speaker 1: that so, so we'll jump in if I've got this wrong.

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Speaker 1: It was about a mile to the visitor center. What

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Speaker 1: does that mean? The purp could have been watching them,

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Speaker 1: could have followed them in and tell them for a mile.

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Speaker 1: But more importantly, these two little girls ran for a mile.

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Speaker 4: Two little girls ran under the.

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Speaker 1: Age of ten, ran for a mile in this terrain, Chris,

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Speaker 1: hearing their mother screaming, And we believe they were running

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Speaker 1: down hill over all the rocks and the ups and

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Speaker 1: the downs and the cracks, in the surface. What would

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Speaker 1: that have been like for little children in this terrain running?

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Speaker 6: Firstly, that's horrific and not only so unnerving considering I worked,

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Speaker 6: you know, in wild lands all across the southern part

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Speaker 6: of Georgia here, but the terrain in that type of area,

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Speaker 6: I mean it cuts and I can only imagine, you know,

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Speaker 6: an adult trying to do that. But two children, their

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Speaker 6: legs are smaller, They're not getting enough you know, windage

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Speaker 6: running like that, They're wearing themselves out, tripping, stumbling, falling.

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Speaker 6: I mean, it would cut them up pretty bad, or

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Speaker 6: at least bruise them up. And in the temperatures like

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Speaker 6: it's been, the highs out there have been in the

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Speaker 6: mid to lower nineties, and I can't imagine what the

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Speaker 6: humidity has been like. But any amount of time running

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Speaker 6: in that heat, it'd wear a little child out very easily.

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Speaker 1: Right now, the FBI joining in the search. I want

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Speaker 1: this guy found. I want him brought to justice. You

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Speaker 1: don't think these two little girls are going to hear

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Speaker 1: their mother's screams for the rest of their lives every

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Speaker 1: time they go to bed.

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Speaker 4: They will.

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Speaker 5: We're all sweeping the trail. Me and I've got a

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Speaker 5: person with me.

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Speaker 2: First state, he is trying to locate the family.

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Speaker 11: Here, still calling for help. We're hiding down Therefore, we're

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Speaker 11: hearing the perie before again into the lower part of

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Speaker 11: the Devil's Entrail, try.

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Speaker 5: To relate to the author and we found the victims

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Speaker 5: down here.

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Speaker 6: They're on the lower Devil's Entrail bodies.

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Speaker 12: Authorities believe Arkansas mom and dad fought for their daughters'

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Speaker 12: lives in a brutal attack in Devil's Den State Park

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Speaker 12: that leaves both parents dead.

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Speaker 1: We are live at Devil's Den State Park, the slaughter

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Speaker 1: of a mother and father, we've been told, protecting their

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Speaker 1: own children joining us there at Devil's Den. And that's so,

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Speaker 1: said investigative reporter, but also with US crime stories, investigative

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Speaker 1: reporter Sidney Sumner, I'm hoping, based on what we've heard

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Speaker 1: that the purp was in fact injured. Why do we

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Speaker 1: think that is there a glimmer of hope that we've

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Speaker 1: got the purpse blood or DNA, be a skin blood anything.

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Speaker 13: Well, Nancy, we have very little information on what exactly

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Speaker 13: happened to these parents to this perpetrator.

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Speaker 8: So we have some.

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Speaker 13: Reports from nine to one one operators who took the

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Speaker 13: call from police dispatch radio that one of these little

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Speaker 13: girls saw their father stabbed by this suspect. So we

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Speaker 13: don't know exactly what they saw, but I think police

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Speaker 13: are on this theory that the suspects had a nice

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Speaker 13: he attacked these parents, and those parents were protecting their

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Speaker 13: children and they were not going to go down without

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Speaker 13: a fight and make sure that this perpetrator did not

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Speaker 13: attack their two little girls.

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Speaker 1: So I think.

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Speaker 13: Police believed that this suspect may have defensive wounds from

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Speaker 13: the parents who were trying to fight him off.

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Speaker 2: Yann would go for a white male suspect wearing black gloves, sunglasses,

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Speaker 2: or colored pants or to witness direction of travel was

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Speaker 2: quotes and laid across a bridge leaving Devil's Den and

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Speaker 2: stayed on the highways. Quote.

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Speaker 1: Okay, this is what we know about the perp. What

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Speaker 1: he looked like. We believe white male, black gloves, sunglasses,

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Speaker 1: dark pants, long sleeve shirt rolled up.

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Speaker 4: Interesting.

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Speaker 1: The only way his face is covered is with sunglasses.

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Speaker 4: We're not hearing about a hat.

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Speaker 1: We've also heard he had dark blonde to light brown hair.

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Speaker 4: Learning more at this hour, listen.

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Speaker 14: First responders here screams and calls for help. By the

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Speaker 14: time they reach the victims on the trail, it's clear

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Speaker 14: the victims are deceased, no sign of their attacker. Officers

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Speaker 14: quickly clear the trail, speaking with hikers as they exit

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Speaker 14: the park to piece together what happened. Several hikers remember

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Speaker 14: passing the family and many others on the trail, but

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Speaker 14: a few point out there was only one person they

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Speaker 14: saw alone on the trail that day, A medium build,

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Speaker 14: white man wearing dark clothes, a ball cap and sunglasses

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Speaker 14: with dark blonde or light brown hair.

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Speaker 2: That's that's going to be.

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Speaker 13: A white man wearing light gloves and light with a

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Speaker 13: dark colored cans and a dark color came off car

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Speaker 13: plate direct travel.

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Speaker 8: One of us were leaving the other again and stayed

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Speaker 8: on the highway.

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Speaker 1: Curious, I'm hearing an inconsistency. Some reports state that the

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Speaker 1: part pat on long long sleeve shirt with the slaves

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Speaker 1: rolled up there.

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Speaker 4: P We're hearing police.

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Speaker 1: Dispatch state that he had on a tank top. Very

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Speaker 1: curious that there would be a knife attack and the

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Speaker 1: kind of heat that Chris Adams is describing wearing a

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Speaker 1: tank top. Let's think that through. Is that how he

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Speaker 1: was injured, joining me an all star panel. But now

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Speaker 1: to doctor Pria Abanergy Board certified forensic pathologist, anatomic pathologist,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Priya, thank you for being with us, doctor Priya.

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Speaker 1: We're told that the purp was injured. There's got to

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Speaker 1: be evidence of that. It's got to be blood, got

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Speaker 1: to be explain how would we know looking at the victims'

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Speaker 1: bodies that the PURP had been injured. Great question.

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Speaker 15: I think that's where the money is. That this is

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Speaker 15: a stabbing up post and personal, and I mean just

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Speaker 15: breaks my heart as a girl mom too of a

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Speaker 15: ten year old.

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Speaker 1: That they witnessed this.

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Speaker 15: So this was not just a single stab. It sounds

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Speaker 15: like a very violent altercation. So we need to look

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Speaker 15: at the victims hands, look for defensive wounds and what's

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Speaker 15: the state of their nails, if there's any debris under them,

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Speaker 15: and rush that evidence.

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Speaker 4: That is going to be where the DNA is.

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Speaker 15: You know, they didn't give up, they fought back to

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Speaker 15: save their kids, and really that's where any sort of

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Speaker 15: DNA is going to be. Even I've even swabbed hands

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Speaker 15: at autopsy to try to get touched DNA or residual

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Speaker 15: any blood drops. You look to see if there's any

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Speaker 15: vertical blood drops like with the spatter pattern, to make

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Speaker 15: sure and see if potentially you can identify whether it's

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Speaker 15: victim's blood or what I'm hoping is injured assailant's blood

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Speaker 15: on clothing whatnot. And that's where the money will be for.

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Speaker 4: The DNA crime stories. With Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: Two Ninette so So joining us from Devil's Den State Park,

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Speaker 1: we are also learning that the two little girls, just seven.

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Speaker 4: And nine, who were running for their lives.

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Speaker 1: Say the perps stabbed their dad and their mom yelled

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Speaker 1: at them to run as far and fast as they

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Speaker 1: can for help, and they heard the mom asking why

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Speaker 1: are you doing this and start to.

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Speaker 8: Scream exactly Nancy. That is what was reported with the

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Speaker 8: mother in distress telling and trying to save her girls,

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Speaker 8: telling them to run, and when they did run, they

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Speaker 8: made up with their life. About a mile away from

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Speaker 8: where the attack happened. Reports state that his parents were

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Speaker 8: found on the walking trail.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Jeff Guardier with US clinical psychologists and Professor Doctor

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Speaker 1: Jeff the brazen nature of the attack, and I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: circle back to Ron Bateman, same thing in the Rachel

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Speaker 1: Morn case. Doctor Jeff, we know that there were other

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Speaker 1: people on the trail, other adults. In fact, these two

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Speaker 1: little girls seven and nine, were running. They could hear

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Speaker 1: their mom screaming in the background. They saw their dad

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Speaker 1: get stabbed. As of now, they have not identified the

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Speaker 1: purp so it's not someone known to the little girls.

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Speaker 1: But if there were other people on the trail, this

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Speaker 1: guy has balls.

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Speaker 4: The size of coconuts.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he's on the trail, can get caught, and

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Speaker 1: he attacks with a knife. Anyway, the girls say they

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Speaker 1: saw dad getting stabbed. That's where we're getting the idea

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Speaker 1: that this was a stabbing, which, as you heard earlier

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Speaker 1: from doctor Priya, is up close and personal. As she

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Speaker 1: describes it, it's a whole nother mindset to stab somebody dead.

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Speaker 1: It's not like a sniper in the distance taking a

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Speaker 1: long shot. This is somebody fighting with you, grappling with you, screaming,

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Speaker 1: trying to get away, trying to attack you, and you

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Speaker 1: keep stabbing repeatedly. And the brazen nature of doing this

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Speaker 1: on a trail where there's a lot of people.

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Speaker 10: So this is a person who probably waited to make

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Speaker 10: sure that the trail was empty and only the parents

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Speaker 10: and the children were there. That's number one. Number two

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Speaker 10: the fact, Nancy, as you so aptly said here, this

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Speaker 10: was with a knife and not a gun. So as

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Speaker 10: doctor Priya would agree, I would think that this is

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Speaker 10: about a very personal attack, even if he didn't know

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Speaker 10: the individuals. Someone wants to violate a family in every

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Speaker 10: way possible by striking terror into their hearts and that

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Speaker 10: of the children. And one last point here that the

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Speaker 10: father perhaps was stabbed first, but the mother may not

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Speaker 10: have just been fighting on off this individual, but also

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Speaker 10: trying to keep that individual from chasing after the children.

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Speaker 10: And therefore whatever fighting she was doing was to protect herself,

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Speaker 10: but at the same time to also try to contain

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Speaker 10: this individual long enough for the children to get away.

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Speaker 12: What's supposed to be a memorable family hike ends in

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Speaker 12: a brutal tragedy when the bodies of a mom and

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Speaker 12: dad are suddenly discovered in Arkansas State Park.

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Speaker 1: As soon as this went public late last night, social

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Speaker 1: media went.

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Speaker 4: Wild, and we're learning a lot. Listen.

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Speaker 16: Social media accounts are flooded with comments and accounts from

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Speaker 16: visitors to Devil's Den State Park on Saturday, and one

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Speaker 16: mother is convinced her family passed both the brinks and

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Speaker 16: their possible killer. On Devil's Den Trail. The mom says

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Speaker 16: she and her five children ran into a family of

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Speaker 16: four at a steep rock wall and exchanged pleasantries with

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Speaker 16: the parents as they helped their daughters down. Not long after,

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Speaker 16: the mom decided to turn and ran it to someone

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Speaker 16: else at the same rock wall. This man was not

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Speaker 16: interested in small talk and did not meet her eyes

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Speaker 16: when she said excuse me on her family's behalf. The

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Speaker 16: mother noticed that the man was also dressed oddly for

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Speaker 16: the hot weather, wearing a dark long sleeve shirt.

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Speaker 1: Straight out to Chris aka Turtleman Adams, survivalist experts to

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Speaker 1: find him on Facebook Turtleman Chris Adams, Chris, we heard

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Speaker 1: it first that the pert was wearing a tank top,

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Speaker 1: which would have been appropriate in this weather, as you

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Speaker 1: pointed out, But why would you expose your bare arms,

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Speaker 1: neck and chest in that way for stabbing? Then social

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Speaker 1: media finds out about the murders and goes wild.

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Speaker 4: A woman actually writes.

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Speaker 1: In that she turned back and she sees this guy

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Speaker 1: wearing a dark long sleeve shirt and that struck her

440
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 1: as odd. The weather explained, what would a normal hiker

441
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: be wearing at Devil's Den.

442
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 6: An average hiker anywhere really at this time of year

443
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 6: in the summer would be wearing those fishing net shirts.

444
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 6: You know, breatheable. You want your skin covered for the

445
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 6: most part. Down in those canyons and caverns. If you're

446
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 6: in broad sunlight, it can get brutal. But some will

447
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 6: wear things like tank tops and things of that nature.

448
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 6: But my take on the whole hoodie thing is perhaps

449
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 6: he had the hoodie on, took it off and he

450
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 6: was seen in a tank top or vice versa. If

451
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 6: he attacked them with a tank top on, he could

452
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 6: have well just put it on afterwards, the hoodie to

453
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 6: cover up any wounds on his arms, you know.

454
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: To Ron Bateman joining us former sheriff at Anne Arundel County,

455
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 1: Maryland who extensively investigated the Rachel Moore in case, and

456
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: we keep bringing up Rachel Moore and a mother of

457
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 1: five just like this mother is a mother of two.

458
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,959
Speaker 1: She was hiking solo, and I think Ron, it was

459
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: early in the morning when she was hiking that said

460
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: her boyfriend realized she didn't come home in time and

461
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: starts searching finds her car at the trailhead and then

462
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: discovers her body. Of course he became state suspect number one.

463
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 1: It's the love interest. He finds the body. It wasn't him.

464
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: It was a purp, an illegal immigrant in this country

465
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: who had already attacked people. A young girl in La

466
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: in her own home that said Ron Bateman in this case,

467
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 1: did you hear what Chris Adams was saying? The purp,

468
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 1: first believed to be wearing a tank top, was on

469
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 1: this hot trail. According to the eyewitness who went back

470
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 1: with her children, he wouldn't do any small talk. They

471
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: walked past him, and the moment excuse me on behalf

472
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: of her whole family. He wouldn't speak, wouldn't look her

473
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 1: in the eyes. And he was dressed nick to wrist

474
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: to foot right. That's not normal.

475
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 7: No, it's not normal. And you know it goes into

476
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 7: the subject of was he lying in wait, and which

477
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 7: we can talk about extensively because of other things that

478
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 7: we know.

479
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 4: But if I could real quick go back.

480
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 1: To it, do it, because you know what I want

481
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: to hear. If you think he was lying in wait,

482
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: I want to hear all the reasons why, because that

483
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: will help me identify a suspect.

484
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 7: Okay, great, So let's talk about what something doctor Prias

485
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 7: said real quick. I can't let it go. Yes, about

486
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 7: the DNA underneath the fingernails a skin, Yes, that is

487
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 7: super important. I investigated a double murder involving the suspect

488
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 7: using a knife in a wooded area in the past,

489
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 7: and one of the things when you're processing a scene

490
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 7: outdoors is extremely difficult because you don't have area where

491
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 7: you're going to find fingerprints. But what you do have

492
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 7: a lot of times, it's not unusual during a night.

493
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: Time stop stop, stop stop, Ron Bateman. Hey, you can't

494
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: just drop a bomb on us like that, a fact bomb.

495
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: You're totally correct, But explain to everybody why an outdoor

496
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: scene is so hard to process. I mean, in Rachel Mooren,

497
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,719
Speaker 1: you found a pool of blood near the body and

498
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: she had been raped, brutally sex assaulted. So we got

499
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,719
Speaker 1: DNA matching up to an unknown perp. But it's really

500
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: hard to process an outdoor scene. Explain why what are

501
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: you going to get a fingerprint off a tree? It's

502
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: hard exactly.

503
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,239
Speaker 7: Outdoor scenes are so difficult, especially if it ends up

504
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 7: braining during the course of your processing. But it did

505
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 7: in this case. But what you're looking for in a

506
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 7: scene in the outdoors or a footprints if you have

507
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 7: some kind of soil that's strong enough to hold a footprint.

508
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 7: But in the case of a stabbing, it's not unusual

509
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 7: for the assailant to be injured because of some kind

510
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 7: of struggle that took place. So therefore you're really looking

511
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 7: honing in for blood, and they may have found blood

512
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 7: away from the bodies as the suspect was fleeing the area.

513
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 7: That's what I would say is probably going to happen

514
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 7: in this case because Clinton Brick is a pretty big dude,

515
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 7: and he's going to put up a fight for his family,

516
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 7: especially with a knife, and so I wouldn't be surprised

517
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 7: if the suspects injured and that was found as a

518
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 7: part of the process and processing of the scene.

519
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: Okay, Bateman, everything you just said is correct, except and

520
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: it's still correct, But the likelihood they're going to get

521
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: a footprint on a trail slim to none. Everything else,

522
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: I'm down with it. I mean, Chris Adams, how are

523
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: you going to get a footprint off a trail like

524
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: this unless it's been wet and you can actually see

525
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: for instance, the tread on the bottom of the shoe.

526
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 4: Otherwise it's just not going to happen.

527
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 6: Even for a good tracker, it's going to be difficult.

528
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 6: You know that the part said there were very few

529
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 6: visitors the last few days, but that doesn't mean there

530
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 6: wasn't an influx of people a week before. I don't

531
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 6: know if it's rained or if it hasn't, but those

532
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 6: footprints set pretty quickly. Now off trail, you may be

533
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 6: able to find one much easier. Your average crowd is

534
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 6: going to stick to that trail, but this all happened

535
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 6: on a trail, so it's hard to determine how you're

536
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 6: going to find that exact footprint.

537
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: In my opinion, crime Stories with Nancy Grace, you know,

538
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: Angel Lewis is joining US high profile lawyer SIRC Law firm,

539
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: and for my purposes, former felony prosecutor who has prosecuted

540
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: a lot of cases, including homicide cases. Angel Lewis, there's

541
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: something you brought up earlier, and Ron Bateman just.

542
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 4: Brought it up.

543
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: You know, we're talking about the Rachel Mooren case, and

544
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: I've got other similar cases, like the serial killer Israel

545
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: Keys who hunted people that were our veers and hikers

546
00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: all across the country.

547
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 4: And I've got them on talking about it.

548
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: Complete total perv that said they would pick on people

549
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: that were less powerful or less cunning than themselves. There's

550
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: whack a doodle right there. That's Israel Keys. He would

551
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: specifically go to hiking trails, RV camps, tent camps, dispersed

552
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: camping areas, and he would get people and murder them

553
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: at their weakest moments. But Andrea, you brought this up,

554
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: as did Bateman and in Morin who did the perp

555
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: attack alone, female, unarmed, Andrea, you brought it up. This

556
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: guy is big, Clinton Brink, that's a big guy. Hey,

557
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: Control room, do you mind putting up a picture of him?

558
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: Can't You can't really tell in a lot of these

559
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: pictures how big he is because, like you know, I

560
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: got a close up. Oh and another thing, when I

561
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: go back to Jeff Gardier, these photos are just breaking

562
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: my heart. They're not professional photos. They're happy photos taken

563
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: by them at some of the happiest.

564
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 4: Moments of their lives.

565
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,719
Speaker 1: Like I look through my phone and I see all

566
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: these candid moments with David and the twins, and it's

567
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: just like the happiest moments of our lives.

568
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 4: Look at that. Look at that.

569
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: It's like the ultimate American family out with their children

570
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: before everybody has to go back to school on a

571
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: heighth thinking they were doing a fun.

572
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 4: Thing, making memories. As I like to say.

573
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: But Andrea, this purp took that. That's a good one.

574
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: He's almost as big as Woody.

575
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 2: Right.

576
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: This is a big dude, right, and the purp took

577
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: on not only him but the mom.

578
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 4: Yes, Nancy, and you know bringing up Israel. He's that's interesting.

579
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 9: Because he was, as you noted, he was also someone

580
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 9: who waited for people in very isolated scenarios and isolated scenes.

581
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 9: He was someone who preyed upon those who likely couldn't

582
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 9: fight back. What makes us wonder, you know, we know

583
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 9: that he was into weighted area. Even in this case

584
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 9: he's armed. I presume he's assuming that those who are

585
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 9: out for a lovely family afternoon with their small children

586
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 9: are not going to come to the trail heavily armed,

587
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 9: and then he looks at that as an opportunity to attack,

588
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 9: which is obviously what happened here. Now to your point

589
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 9: about the size, I agree with you, and that strikes

590
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 9: me as very odd that one may consider that he

591
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 9: may have been thinking, Okay, Dad is going to be

592
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 9: so caught up in trying to protect the family this

593
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 9: and that likely not be prepared.

594
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 5: We don't know.

595
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 9: Maybe he's wearing a backpack, he's got a bunch of

596
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 9: things in his hands, who knows. But maybe he then

597
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 9: thinks he can catch him off guard if he's armed

598
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 9: and sneaks up behind it or something of that nature.

599
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 9: But it is a very strange crime. And the first

600
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 9: thing that came to mind as we were talking about before,

601
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,919
Speaker 9: is maybe he sees the beautiful young girls come through

602
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 9: with the family, becomes fixated on them and says, look,

603
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 9: I'm going to do what I got to do to

604
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 9: take out this these loving parents in order to get

605
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 9: what he ultimately desired.

606
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: You know, I'm just thinking of this through doctor Jeff.

607
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: First of all, I want to talk to you about

608
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: who is this perp willing to take on a big dude,

609
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: the husband, the wife. What is motivating him. We're not

610
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 1: hearing anything about a sex tack on, mom. We're not

611
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:55,959
Speaker 1: hearing anything.

612
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 4: About a robbery. So of course, a.

613
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 1: State, as you know, doesn't have to prove motive a trial.

614
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 1: You never have to go bang around into the defendant's

615
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: head to figure out, well, what were they thinking?

616
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 4: You don't have to.

617
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: Prove that, but as a practical matter, doctor Jeff a

618
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: jury wants to hear motive like him Brian Coburger, right,

619
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,720
Speaker 1: that piece of crap, may he writ in hell, people were.

620
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 4: Hung up at the get go.

621
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 1: Why would this guy, a PhD go into the home

622
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 1: at three four o'clock in the morning and murder four

623
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 1: people without a sex attack, without a robbery.

624
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 4: He didn't even know them.

625
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: So it would be hard for some people on the jury,

626
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 1: not me, but some people to piece together that you

627
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: don't need a motive, or that you will never know

628
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: the motive. But I'm looking for a motive because it

629
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: may help me identify who.

630
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 4: Is this guy?

631
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: For instance, was he a neighbor and he had been

632
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: had been living there for long they had just moved

633
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: to thee through the jurisdiction. And was this a neighbor

634
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: that saw the little girl say like in Shasta a

635
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: Dylan grownee in the above ground pool and went hey,

636
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: I want that little girl.

637
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 4: Did he follow them? Did he know them?

638
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: Was he lying in wait for just the right little

639
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 1: girl to try to steal. I mean, who is this guy?

640
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 1: Give me some insight, doctor, Jeff.

641
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 10: Well, I think that this is a person who not

642
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 10: only may have wanted to violate the little girls. We

643
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 10: still don't know that, of course, but that's a theory.

644
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 10: But this is a person who wanted to say.

645
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: Words like that. Well, this is a person saying violate.

646
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: You make it sound like he had a traffic citation,

647
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 1: violated right of way if that's his word, If he

648
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,959
Speaker 1: wants to rape the little girl, put it out there.

649
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: I don't have time for niceties. This is not high

650
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: tea at Windsor Castle.

651
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 4: Jeff.

652
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 10: I totally understand Nancy. But I use the word violation

653
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 10: because it's more than just a possible sex attack, but

654
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 10: a complete attack on the entire family. This is someone

655
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 10: who may have had intense hatred or resentment towards family structures.

656
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 10: You ask for a motivation, and I'm giving you one.

657
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 10: This is a person perhaps who came from a background

658
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 10: like Coburger, where he had, you know, situations where he

659
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 10: felt that he was being treated like a piece of

660
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 10: crap or didn't have a happy family, and therefore this

661
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 10: violation of the whole family structure. It is an abomination.

662
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 10: He may not have only wanted to destroy these little girls,

663
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 10: but to destroy the entire family. That is a real perversion.

664
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 11: I'm ready for the first responders, sat reflee. That's all possible.

665
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 11: Fabvingtensive heart question. County received a call from the visitor

666
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 11: center to children are their advised that their parents were assaulted,

667
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 11: one was possibly stabbed.

668
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 5: The parents are missing.

669
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 2: You guys, has just security Devilston you are still in round.

670
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,720
Speaker 2: Attacked the mail and a femail on Devilston Hiking trail

671
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 2: and then took off on a small black sports car

672
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 2: with tables with plee and we suspect the suspect of

673
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 2: the injuries due to the witness seeing the suspect stab

674
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 2: one of them.

675
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: We are live at Devil's Den State Park, Arkansas. A

676
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: mother and a father in the prime of their life

677
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: with their two little girls. The two little girls ages

678
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: seven and nine, with mommy and daddy on a hike

679
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: before everybody has to go back to school. Both of

680
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:52,359
Speaker 1: these parents nurses. The parents are dead, stabbed dead. At

681
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: this hour, there is a man hunt for the perp.

682
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,720
Speaker 1: The two little girls mom yells to them to run

683
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 1: and get away, and they do. They see their father

684
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 1: getting stabbed dead, and they hear their mother screaming with

685
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,280
Speaker 1: me an all star panels straight out to Nanette Sosa

686
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: standing by at Devil's Den State Park.

687
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:20,240
Speaker 4: One, we have a composite sketch.

688
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: Two the FBI has gotten involved, and three a vehicle

689
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: was spotted. This is such malice a forethought. There was

690
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 1: duct tape or electrical tape over at least part of

691
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: the tag number. I mean, this guy put a lot

692
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: of thought into this. Let's start with a composite sketch,

693
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: Nanette Sosa, what do you know?

694
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 8: The composite sketch shows a white male with the ball

695
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 8: cap and his eyes are set close together. His face

696
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 8: looks unshaven. It's a very somber look how it's drawn out,

697
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 8: how it's sketched. And then the shirt that he's wearing

698
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 8: is more like a sweatshirt type of shirt for this sketch.

699
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: Putting together a sketch like this is extremely laborious. Ron

700
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 1: Bateman with us. Remember we got the sketch of the

701
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: Rachel Morin.

702
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 4: That's the case you.

703
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 1: Investigated, perp and it was dead on as best as

704
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 1: we could get it, and he was caught on cam,

705
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: but only his back was caught on cam when he

706
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 1: attacked a little girl out in California and related to

707
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: the Rachel Moore in case. Ron Bateman, former sheriff and

708
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:50,720
Speaker 1: Arundel County, Maryland, Ron, how do you make a composite sketch?

709
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 7: Hopefully we have witnesses, adult witnesses, because your two juveniles

710
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 7: are going to be extremely upset and probably there their

711
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 7: view of things are going to be skewed. But so

712
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 7: hopefully we have some adults that are not emotionally involved

713
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 7: in this and we're able to give good, accurate descriptions

714
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 7: of the suspect to allow such a very crisp, clean

715
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 7: composite of the suspect.

716
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 4: I like it, Cydney Sumner. What do we know about

717
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 4: the car?

718
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 13: We know that the car is a four door black Sedan.

719
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 13: The word sports car was thrown around frequently in initial reports,

720
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 13: and a nine one one operator has confirmed that with

721
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 13: other calls, she's kind of ruled out that it was

722
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 13: a muscle car, so we know it wasn't like an

723
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:40,800
Speaker 13: American Mustang something of that sort. And this nine to

724
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 13: one one operator, who has a special pensian for cars

725
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 13: and types of cars, believes that it's probably a foreign car,

726
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 13: an import. So we also heard at one point a

727
00:42:54,320 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 13: twenty twelve Magda, but police ruled out that car as

728
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 13: a suspect vehicle because it was still in the park

729
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 13: as they were completing their investigation. So all we really

730
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 13: have to go on is this four door black sedan

731
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 13: feels more like a sports car. And people who called

732
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 13: about this car said that it was driving erradically when

733
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 13: it left the park. Somebody said they felt like they

734
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 13: were almost hit by this car. When they reported it.

735
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 13: They said it's very, very loud. That's one of the

736
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 13: big commonalities. And the other one is that that license

737
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 13: plate is covered in some kind of tape, electrical duct tape.

738
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 1: Black four door sedan. This is interesting. The license plate

739
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: either fully or partially obscured by electrical or duct tape.

740
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: I seventy or two twenty covering up part of the

741
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: tag number with duck tape.

742
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 4: You know what that tells me? Area Lewis this ain't

743
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 4: his first.

744
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: Time at the rodeo. I mean, I wouldn't think if

745
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 1: I were going out for a hike. Why do you

746
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: cover up part of your tag number with duct tape?

747
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 1: That's MENSRAA Malisa forethought intent intent out the yanyang.

748
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 9: Yes, that is a huge piece of evidence here that

749
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 9: shows us there is no question this was premeditated. He

750
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 9: was not going there for a hike, He was not

751
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 9: going there to do any bird watching. This was a

752
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:25,959
Speaker 9: man who went to the park that day with one

753
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 9: thing in mind. He's going to commit a crime.

754
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 1: What was that crime?

755
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 9: That's what we're trying to determine. Did he go there

756
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 9: to initially rob someone, to unfortunately possibly get access to

757
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 9: young children, or was it as it ended up, to

758
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 9: murder two innocent parents. We don't yet know. But what

759
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 9: we do know is he put thought into this. And

760
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 9: to your point, Nancy, which is an excellent point, people

761
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 9: who are this brazen generally have done this before. You

762
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 9: don't come up with this stuff on your first go round.

763
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,280
Speaker 9: This man knew what he was doing and that says

764
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 9: a lot.

765
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,240
Speaker 1: Agreed. Disagree, Uctor Jeff Gardier, you're the psychologist.

766
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 10: Yeah, I absolutely agree. We typically see that these types

767
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 10: of individuals either follow or study these types of tactics,

768
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 10: or I've done them before. The other thing about this

769
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 10: tape that was used on the license plates, I suspect

770
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,720
Speaker 10: either he knew he would dump the car as quickly

771
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,760
Speaker 10: as possible, because that would draw attention to the car

772
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 10: on a highway trying.

773
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 4: To obscure your license plates or pull off.

774
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 10: Somewhere and then pull off the tape and then get

775
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 10: back into the car.

776
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 5: And that.

777
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 4: There are some reports that he was wearing gloves.

778
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 8: Yes, you're correct, fingerless gloves at that which would we fingerprints?

779
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 8: I would And if he stand these husband and wife

780
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 8: and wife, so I would think there's some prints to

781
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 8: be found somewhere possibly. And also the couple were again

782
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 8: they were found on the trail.

783
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 4: On the trail. Rachel Morien was dragged off the trail.

784
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 1: I mean, Chris Adams, you're the survivalist who goes hiking.

785
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: And what I'm getting at Chris is that he had

786
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 1: nefarious intent, malicious intent going into this. He wasn't just

787
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 1: on the show and went hey, I want to molest

788
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: a little girl. And there one is he went in

789
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: with his tag obscured with duct tape or some people

790
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 1: call it electrical tape, and he was wearing gloves and

791
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: it's ninety degrees Are you sure about that? Chris Adams

792
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 1: long sleeves, dark long pants, a dark baseball cap, sunglasses

793
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: and gloves to go hiking up a hill in ninety

794
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 1: what five degree temperatures.

795
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 6: Chris Adams as someone who acts a bunch of tra

796
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 6: that would be a person I'd immediately keep an eye

797
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 6: on if it was anywhere near me. It already sounds suspicious.

798
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,280
Speaker 6: It doesn't sound like an average hacker. This was somebody

799
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 6: with intent to do harm to someone. As far as

800
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 6: I'm concerned, your average hackers don't dress like that, and

801
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 6: they definitely don't act like that.

802
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: Tip line the Arkansas State Police for seven nine seven

803
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: five one six' six six y three repeat four seven

804
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,879
Speaker 1: nine seven five one six' six six.

805
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:34,240
Speaker 4: Y three i can't stress enough how much we need.

806
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: Citizen Sleuths gabby batito's case would never have been Solved

807
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 1: If red Blue AND methane i believe was their handle

808
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 1: online did not spot Her white ford transit and. Dispersed parking.

809
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,760
Speaker 1: Her body what was left of it was found a good.

810
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 4: Distance away from.

811
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: That van but if they hadn't seen it and, reported

812
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 1: it we would never know what Happened To.

813
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:05,280
Speaker 4: Gabby petito.

814
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 1: Dispersed camping is there are no, electrical hookups, no, Bathrooms

815
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 1: nothing you are out in.

816
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 4: The wild she would.

817
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 1: Never have, been found and we've been told that she

818
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 1: was identified originally by, her sweatshirt not by, her body

819
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:27,280
Speaker 1: because animals had already.

820
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 4: Attacked it that's how much we need.

821
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,399
Speaker 1: Citizens louse not just people on the trail that may

822
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 1: have seen or observed something we don't, know yet but

823
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:36,840
Speaker 1: people regarding.

824
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 4: That car it. Was loud what does?

825
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,240
Speaker 1: That mean, don't know couldn't mean any number. Of things

826
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 1: we know it was a four Door. Black sedan some

827
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: people thought it Was, a mazda and we know the

828
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 1: tag was obscured with black duct tape indicating malicious intent

829
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: along with what he. Was wearing these parents died trying

830
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:06,919
Speaker 1: to save their two. Little girls this guy is on

831
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: the loose tip line four seventy nine seven five one

832
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 1: six six six three a brazen attack and now police

833
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 1: are looking for the vehicle and they're scouring twenty five

834
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: hundred acres. Of wilderness one, Quick Question tonette sosa joining

835
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:36,320
Speaker 1: Us From Devil's? Den park are their cams at the entry?

836
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: And exit if he left in a vehicle and didn't

837
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: leave on the front the perimeter of the, park itself

838
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 1: we might have a shot at getting a good description of.

839
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: The car are there cams for.

840
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 8: The entrances and the exits Here At. Devil's den regarding

841
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 8: CAMERAS where i have information could be, picked up they're.

842
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 8: Not sure the authorities here have not directly answered. The

843
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 8: question it has, BEEN asked i, personally asked but that

844
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 8: has not. Been disclosed you're looking at twenty five hundred

845
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 8: acres and in between the waterfalls, rock formations you have,

846
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 8: twelve trails you, got. Campsites cavins the area is rule

847
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 8: and not. Just that if you're on one of, the

848
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 8: trails it's likely you don't even have. Cellular service you

849
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 8: can't even make a. Phone call so there's. That thought

850
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 8: but as far, as cameras that has not been, officially

851
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 8: disclosed at least not, to me and.

852
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 4: That is why we.

853
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 1: Need YOU the fbi has been brought in to Help

854
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:41,879
Speaker 1: The Arkansas. State police if you saw, this vehicle if

855
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,240
Speaker 1: you have a home or. Business Camra Remember, alex murdoch

856
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: another sack of crap that murdered his wife, And son

857
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: Maggie and paul to cover up his own financial wrongdoings

858
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:55,320
Speaker 1: to the tune of millions of dollars.

859
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 4: He's stealing.

860
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 1: He went down a rural road and he faked an

861
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: attempt on his life to cover the fact that he is.

862
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 1: The killer there were, no cameras but. Guess what at

863
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:14,839
Speaker 1: the entrance of that rural road was A little baptist

864
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 1: church and guess what they had. A camera so any

865
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: camera footage we, Need it please Help The Arkansas. State

866
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 1: police these little girls need to grow up knowing that.

867
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:36,320
Speaker 1: We cared we didn't just talk, about it we did something.

868
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: About it four, seventy, nine, seven, five, one six six.

869
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: Sixty three and now we Remember an american, Hero Officer

870
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: dril islam N, y pd just, thirty six shot and

871
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:57,800
Speaker 1: killed at an office Tower, in manhattan providing security leeves behind,

872
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 1: his wife who, is pregnant and two.

873
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 4: Little children.

874
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 1: American Hero Officer Deirul Islam nancy grace signing off. Goodbye

875
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 1: friend