1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. 2 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 2: Dvorce. 3 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 3: It's not just country music hit the Lejah Long Island 4 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 3: serial killer's wife seeks a divorce in the last hours. 5 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 2: That says a lot. 6 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 3: Not only that, we learned that authorities are now seeking 7 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 3: out hookers sex workers to find out if any of 8 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 3: them can provide insight into fifty nine year old Rex 9 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 3: Huerman as the search goes on regarding his Las Vegas 10 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 3: pleasure pit and his South Carolina compound that borders on 11 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 3: his brother's property where coincidentally, guess was there a Chevy Avalanche. 12 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 3: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being 13 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 3: with us here at Fox Nation. In series Sex sem 14 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 3: one eleven, take a listen to our friends at Picks. 15 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 4: The wife of suspected gilg Beach serial killer Rex Huerman, 16 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 4: has officially filed for divorce, and tonight we are hearing 17 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 4: from her sister for the first time, less than a 18 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 4: week after her husband's arrest. Assa Ellerup filing for divorce 19 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 4: from Rex Hureman Wednesday in Suffolk County Supreme Court. Online 20 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 4: filings list the divorce as uncontested. Asa Ellerup's sister, Johanna, 21 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 4: speaking briefly from the front door of her Long Island home, 22 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 4: saying she's unaware of details. 23 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 2: We don't know anything. 24 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 5: We're hearing about most of it on the news ourselves. 25 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 3: I'm confused. How I'm not saying I don't believe it. 26 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 3: I do believe it, but I'm still confused. How can 27 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 3: a guy allegedly murder women for years and years and 28 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 3: believe you me, They're gonna be more dead bodies whether 29 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 3: we find them or not. That's the kicker in Vegas, 30 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 3: in South Carolina, in the Tri state area near Long Island. 31 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 2: How did she not know something was off? 32 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 3: I mean, my husband has a padlocked room downstairs in 33 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 3: the basement. Uh uh in oh if he goes to 34 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 3: Vegas without me and the children, over and over, no, no, no, 35 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 3: for is gonna fly? 36 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: How is this happening? But Cheryl McCollum joining me, found 37 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 2: a director of. 38 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 3: The Cold Case Research Institute, forensic expert, and star off 39 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 3: a hit series Zone Seven, Cheryl Truth. It happens all 40 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 3: the time. I have asked women you didn't think anything 41 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 3: was weird? They go, no, I didn't know a thing. 42 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 3: That's you know, maybe they've got on blind or Cheryl, 43 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:55,679 Speaker 3: maybe they don't want to know. I mean, think about it, 44 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 3: Cheryl McCollum. A lot of people, and not just women, 45 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 3: men too, they don't want to see the signs their 46 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 3: spouse is having an affair. I mean, you know what 47 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 3: if I find lipstick on David Lynch's callar, I'm telling 48 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 3: you all, agal going to break least right now. 49 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 2: So I mean, how does it happen? Cheryl? Let me 50 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 2: tell you this. 51 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 6: She sure got from I just got news my husband's 52 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 6: been arrested as a serial killer to divorce pretty quick. 53 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 6: So it sounds like to me she processed that information 54 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 6: as fast as anybody I've ever seen. 55 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 5: She ain't standing bind. She's getting rid of him as 56 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 5: quick as she could, So on some level she's accepted 57 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 5: it so fast. I believe she now knows the odd 58 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 5: things were clues the whole time. 59 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know what, You may be right, guys, we 60 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 3: have an all star panel to make sense of what 61 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 3: we know right now. But I hear Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, 62 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 3: throwing a little psycho. 63 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 2: I would say, bibel. 64 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 3: But I actually think you're right that wife processed the 65 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 3: information pretty quickly and immediately file for divorce and you 66 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 3: hear her sister, which would be Huerman, the alleged serial 67 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 3: killer sister in law, saying, we're getting our information from 68 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 3: the news, just like everybody else. 69 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 2: So they're hearing it from the news. 70 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 3: They don't have any special knowledge, and based on what 71 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 3: they're hearing, she files for a divorce again, all. 72 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 2: Start panel with me. 73 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 3: Let me go straight out to Kristin Thorne, investigative reporter 74 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 3: WABC Channel seven Eyewitness News, and she's a star off 75 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 3: Hulu's true crime show Missing Kristin. It's great to have 76 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 3: you with us. We've been to Gilgo Beach. We've looked 77 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 3: at that remote area. I can only imagine what it's 78 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 3: light late at night when nobody is around. Plenty of 79 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 3: places to hide a dead body. But my theory is 80 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 3: Kristin that is that once you have the bodies being 81 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 3: unearthed and found, he just goes to another dump site. 82 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:01,559 Speaker 2: Whereas that don't know yet. 83 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 3: But that said, what can you tell me about miss 84 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 3: Ellerup filing for divorce? 85 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 7: Well, look, I don't think it's entirely surprising. Although here's 86 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 7: the thing, Nancy, to your point, I interviewed yesterday a 87 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 7: sex worker currently in New York City, she works in 88 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 7: this area. She's a what she would consider a high 89 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 7: level escort, and she said, these women know when this 90 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 7: is happening. She can tell you firsthand that women had 91 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 7: suspicions when the men start getting involved with sex workers 92 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 7: and escorts and prostitutes. And so she is very suspicious 93 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 7: of whether the wife knew anything that was going on. 94 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 7: We don't have any proof of that, but she has 95 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 7: first hand knowledge. This is what she does for her 96 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 7: line of work. And so she said the fact that 97 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 7: the wife would have been completely floored that he was 98 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 7: at least least using either having affairs or using escorts 99 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 7: or prostitutes was probably not entirely surprising to her. I 100 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 7: thought that was a really interesting perspective. 101 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 2: Guys. 102 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 3: In the last hours, we learn that Rex Huerman, the 103 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 3: alleged Long Island serial killer's wife, files for divorce. 104 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 2: Bernard A. 105 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 3: Villa and I have a high profile criminal defense attorney, 106 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 3: former prosecutor outam New York, and you can find her 107 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 3: at Villa Loona Law dot com. 108 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 2: Bernanda, thank you for being with us. 109 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 3: You know, every time I've tried a defendant for murder 110 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 3: or a group of defendants for murder, I can guarantee 111 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 3: you one thing. One person will be sitting behind the 112 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 3: defendant at trial, and it's his mother. It's not his wife, 113 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 3: it's not his girlfriend. They're long gone. It's his mother. 114 00:06:57,839 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 3: The mother is the last. 115 00:06:59,640 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 2: One to go. 116 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 3: But you know, very often you see wives hanging on 117 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 3: till the bitter end, refusing to believe what the evidence 118 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 3: is showing them. I think that it is. Of course, 119 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,559 Speaker 3: I'm just a JD. I'm not an MD like doctor 120 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 3: Sherry Schwartz who's about to join us. But I think 121 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 3: that it disrupts basically the fabric of their universe. They 122 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 3: can't believe, well, this happened, my husband did this, because 123 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 3: they've invested their whole lives and a whole nother scenario. 124 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 8: Exactly man sears. You can see in this case till 125 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 8: death dualist part does not apply. So the wife of 126 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 8: this man, obviously she saw the evidence. But when she 127 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 8: saw the evidence, aside from maybe she doesn't believe, ohday, 128 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 8: he killed these women. But the Internet searches, the Google 129 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,559 Speaker 8: searches that I think, in of itself was a rude 130 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 8: awakening because that's something that he could not walk away from. 131 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 8: So I think that right there was probably enough for 132 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 8: her to say, I want up from this. You are 133 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 8: sick in the head. You're talking about we're talking about 134 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 8: Schurch just having to deal with sex and kids and 135 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 8: processes and statistic behavior. I think that would do it 136 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 8: right there. But also remember that this is a case 137 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 8: that is different because the wife is cooperating and the 138 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 8: wife is going to be a key witness. Why Nancy 139 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 8: not a high witness? But she has to testify at 140 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 8: trial one to explain that she was not in the 141 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 8: country or not in the state when these three women 142 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 8: were killed, because remember her hair was found on the 143 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 8: body of the burlo or the item that was used 144 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 8: to tie up these women, so they have to explain 145 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 8: that away. Also, she's going to have to explain like 146 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 8: the different behaviors of her ex or her husband or 147 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 8: ex husband at the time of trial. So we're in 148 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 8: for a rude awakening when she could thus come forward 149 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 8: at the time of trial. But as of now, she 150 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 8: cut her losses very early on. She has the family 151 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 8: to protect, which is her kids were not as. 152 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 3: HI agree with everything you just said, but you know 153 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 3: what it is, so fast and furious is like drinking 154 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 3: from the fire hydiant. Okay, just slow it down for 155 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 3: us regular people, and tell me that again one more time. 156 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 3: I think somebody's hit the coffee a little too much 157 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 3: this morning. Okay, it's not us, Jackie. Okay, Bernanda, everything 158 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 3: you said was spot on. Could you please slow it 159 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 3: down for us all because we all want to jump in. 160 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 2: Go ahead, okay. 161 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 8: So in dealing with the divorce itself, it's going to 162 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 8: be an uncontested divorce. What does that mean in New York? 163 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 8: It means that this man, who are man? He's not 164 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 8: going to fight the divorce. 165 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 2: I guess not. 166 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 3: He's facing right now three counts of murder and three 167 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 3: counts of felony murder. 168 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 2: He's got his hands full on the legal front. 169 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 8: You will be surprised how men will hold on to 170 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 8: the bitter end. But he's not going to fight it. 171 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 8: So that divorce should go through roughly in about six months. 172 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 8: So that's that forgive me right there. So in terms 173 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 8: of the wife itself, so the wife, even though she's 174 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 8: getting divorced, she's still going to be a key witness 175 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 8: a trull. Why do I say that she's got an 176 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 8: eyewitness to the killing of these women? But remember a 177 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 8: crucial piece of evidence is to hear that was found 178 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 8: on three of the bodies, either two or three of 179 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 8: the bodies of these women. 180 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 2: Hold on right there. 181 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 3: That brings me to a really interesting point, and that 182 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:28,199 Speaker 3: is husband wife privilege. You are so right, Bernanda Villalona, 183 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 3: that she will be called as a witness to explain 184 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 3: why her hair or really that she had no knowledge 185 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 3: of the murders, because her hair is on three of 186 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 3: the victims that we know of right now. And I 187 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 3: know Cheryl McColl is going to jump all over this, 188 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 3: but I believe there's going to be cat hair associated 189 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 3: back to the defendant because we saw its detectives taking 190 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 3: out a cat's scratching post from the home. If any 191 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 3: of you have a cat, or you know a cat lover, 192 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 3: you cannot leave your home without being covered in cat 193 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 3: for no matter how far away stay from the cat, 194 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 3: no matter how much you don't let the cat. 195 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 2: Crawl all over you, you're gonna be covered. 196 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 3: So I think she's going to have to explain a 197 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 3: way that she knew nothing about this. But also he 198 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 3: is the one to invote the attorney client privilege, not her, 199 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 3: so any communications between them he can stop from coming in, 200 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 3: but she can testify to. 201 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 2: Act acts things he did. 202 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 3: And I want to remind everybody of another serial killer, 203 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 3: don't hear about that much. 204 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 2: His name was Jerry Brudos. 205 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 3: His wife, Darcy Brutos, was married to him about a decade, 206 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 3: but she quote never noticed the trophies he brought home 207 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 3: from killing sprees, including body parts that he stashed in 208 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 3: the garage. But similar to the current case, Brutos forbade 209 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 3: his wife Darcy from ever going into the attic or 210 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 3: the garage. I can guarantee this woman never went in 211 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 3: that secret room down in the basement. 212 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Greece. 213 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 3: Joining me right now, Doctor Sherry Schwartz, and boy do 214 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 3: we need a shrink right on time, Doctor Sherry. Forensics 215 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 3: psychologists specializing in capital mitigation at panthermitigation dot com. Author 216 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 3: of criminal behavior and where law and psychology intersect. Okay, 217 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 3: doctor Sherry, Now she files for a divorce, you know, 218 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 3: but we got to give the woman a little leeway here, 219 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 3: because I see women all the time married to criminal defendants. 220 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 3: Either they don't see or they don't want to see 221 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 3: what's happening. We understand and correct me if I'm wrong. 222 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 3: Kristin Thorn joining US ABC Channel seven. I think the 223 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 3: Sun may have some type of handicap, some type of 224 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 3: developmental handicap. Now that she's got the daughter with that, 225 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 3: the bio dad is Rix Sherriman, So she's dealing with 226 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 3: raising a son who has disabilities, which is very, very 227 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 3: difficult to do. It's hard enough raising two children without 228 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 3: developmental problems, but having one with special needs as a 229 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 3: whole another layer of complexity. And you know he's a 230 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 3: crap husband, No way, this guy's a good husband. So 231 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 3: doctor Sherry, how is it that you don't know your 232 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 3: husband is storing body parts in the attic? 233 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 9: That's a really good question. If we're dealing with a psychopath, 234 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 9: it's important that people know that they wear a mask 235 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 9: of faith persona to hide who they really are, just 236 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 9: a single mask. They construct different masks for people, different people, 237 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 9: different situations, and they use those masks to manipulate and 238 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 9: get what they want. And these are also predatory individuals, 239 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 9: so they know what to do and what to say 240 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 9: to be able to manipulate and control people. And honestly, 241 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 9: we don't know what kind of life she was living 242 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 9: with this person, the mask that he was wearing in 243 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 9: the house maybe was abusive and not so charming, right, 244 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 9: and so like you said before about the other serial 245 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 9: killer not allowing the wife to go anywhere near the 246 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 9: trophy room, that's entirely possible in this house. 247 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 2: Wow. Joining me is Kristen Thorne. 248 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 3: But I want to go now to Toby Woolson Forendsic 249 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 3: consult a specializing in DNA zerology, blood pattern analysis and 250 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 3: you can find them at no Slow Forensics dot com. Toby, 251 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 3: what forensics do you believe we're in that home? And 252 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 3: do you believe the wife's DNA in addition to the 253 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,239 Speaker 3: hair could be on the victims? All so very important 254 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 3: in that room in his basement that was locked that 255 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 3: he would let anyone go into, how should. 256 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 2: That they processed? That's really important? 257 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 10: Well, the whole house needs to be processed with a 258 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 10: fine tooth comb just in case. But then that room's 259 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 10: going to take you be focused on because it is locked, 260 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 10: and we know from experience that serial killers tend to 261 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 10: have layers that they keep so that they can go 262 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 10: back and relive the murders that they're doing. So when 263 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 10: it comes to that room, I'd be taking it down 264 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 10: to the studs looking for evidence, hair, evidence. This case, 265 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 10: being this old, the evidence that's probably going to be 266 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 10: most likely found is going to be trace evidence like 267 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 10: the hairs and the fibers and things of that nature, 268 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 10: but you never know, so processing it's going to have 269 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 10: to be very thorough along with the rest of the house, 270 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 10: but especially that room. The cat hair is an interesting 271 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 10: thing because as those of us with cats are aware, 272 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 10: you know, they here sticks to everything except the cat, 273 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 10: and they can forensically test those cat hairs to demonstrate 274 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 10: that they came from a particular cat or lineage cat. 275 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 10: So if there are animal hair is involved, that's can 276 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 10: become an interesting area of analysis. And then the use 277 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 10: of the mitochondrial DNA in this case is fascinating because 278 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 10: it used more an ancestry than it is in forensics, 279 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 10: but it has been available for forensic use since about 280 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 10: two thousand and What it does is it shows you 281 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 10: a genetic connection between the female side of the line. 282 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 10: We don't know why male mitochondrial DNA doesn't pass on 283 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 10: or disappears, but we do know that female that mitochondrial 284 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 10: DNA has passed down through the mothers to their offspring 285 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 10: and from the offspring to their offspring, and it doesn't 286 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 10: really change unless there's a mutation. So it's used for 287 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 10: demonstrating ancestry. You can follow it all the way back 288 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 10: to theoretically Eve, the original mother, through all of us, 289 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 10: and it's used for identification purposes. They identified the bodies 290 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 10: of the romanov by using mitochondrial DNA, so it's a 291 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 10: fascinating area and for them to have gotten quite frankly, 292 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 10: they got lucky finding hairs that matched the wife associated 293 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 10: with multiple victims. That takes it away from being a 294 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 10: coincidence to a pattern. And then finding his hair also 295 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 10: to demonstrate that it had to be in contact with 296 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 10: him and not just the wife. 297 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 3: Well, I'm very curious regarding if the wife ever tried 298 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 3: to go down there and clean up, or ever became curious, 299 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 3: because I want to point out paula dates name may 300 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 3: not ring a bell, but her husband name will certainly 301 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 3: ring a bell. Dennis Raider BTK by torture kill, the 302 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 3: serial killer who was a dog catcher and had a 303 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 3: wife and children, a deacon at his church, so on, 304 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 3: so on, so on. Catch this, Okay, I hope you're 305 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 3: sitting down for this. His wife once found one of 306 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 3: the poems he wrote about one of his murder victims, 307 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 3: and at the time she stated the poem scared her. 308 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 3: He lied to his wife, claiming the poem was just 309 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 3: a project he was working on about BTK for one 310 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:50,360 Speaker 3: of his college classes, and she believed it. I mean, 311 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 3: I guess when you're in love, you're willing to believe 312 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 3: the very best. To under Tim Gallagher, Doctor Gallagher, I'm 313 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 3: so happier with us today. To Gallagher is the medical 314 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 3: examiner for the State of Florida. You can find metpathcremed 315 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 3: dot com, lecturer at University of Florida Medical School Forensic Medicine, 316 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 3: and the founder and host of the International Forensic Medicine 317 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 3: Death Investigation Conference. Well, I would be completely in heaven there, 318 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 3: Dr Gallagher. I want to talk to you about the wife. 319 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 3: About this wife, Miss Ellerup, who has just filed for divorce. 320 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 3: And I want to also point out that Btk's wife 321 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 3: filed for an emergency divorce. You ever heard of that? 322 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 3: An emergency divorce and the court granted it. That said 323 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 3: Dr Gallagher. She says she's not involved. I believe her 324 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 3: because the evidence tells me she wasn't involved. She was 325 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 3: out of town during the time that three of the 326 00:19:54,640 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 3: victims were murdered and killed. That said, how do you 327 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 3: look at a victim's body at this juncture? 328 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 2: How do you look back at what was processed at 329 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 2: the time. How do you. 330 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 3: Find DNA on a victim's body, like this hair that 331 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 3: belongs to the wife, Like the hair that was found 332 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 3: on one victim at the bottom of another burl at 333 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 3: bag that belongs to the defendant Rex Huerman. 334 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 2: How do you find this microscopic evidence that can prove 335 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 2: someone beyond reasonable doubt guilty of murder? How do you 336 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 2: go about finding that on a body? 337 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 11: Well, it's definitely not easy, and that's one of the 338 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 11: reasons why we do value our technicians, our forensic technicians 339 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 11: so highly. Generally, what we'll do is we'll put the 340 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 11: remains on a stainless steel table and will use initially 341 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 11: a very high l E or halogen type lighting. 342 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 2: Oh, doctor Gallagher, I'm trying to take notes. 343 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 3: Go ahead, you and bernarda go, go, go, Okay, I'm ready, 344 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 3: halgen halja lamp. 345 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 11: Right, So we would use either LED or halogen type lighting. 346 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 11: We would vary the angles to get different views. 347 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 2: Now, wait a minute, I had not thought of that. 348 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 2: Cheryl mccollm. Did you hear that? So they get the halogen. 349 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 3: Lamp and I don't know if it's this kind, but 350 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 3: I imagine one that has a double What would you 351 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 3: say next to it that you can bend or maybe 352 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 3: do you use a halogen like a flashlight? 353 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 2: But halogen? What kind of light is it? Doctor? 354 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 11: Well, much like the operating room has the lights over 355 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 11: the patient when they operate, we have the same exact 356 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 11: model which hangs from the ceiling, has many elbows to it, 357 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 11: and you can bend it and position it in almost 358 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 11: any direction. 359 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 2: Did you hear that, Cheryl? How would you like to 360 00:21:59,200 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 2: be there? 361 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 3: And I mean I've been to autopsy, but I didn't 362 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 3: notice this happening where they actually angle the halogen lamp 363 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 3: in different angles to try to make sure they don't 364 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 3: miss a hair or a fiber or in anything. 365 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 5: Well, Nancy, that also happens. And they will assist me 366 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 5: when I go to the autopsy so that I can 367 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 5: take photographs as they're going. 368 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 3: You just have all the fun, don't you. Okay, doctor Gallagher? 369 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 3: You left off where you angle the halogen lamp and 370 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 3: are you looking through some type of a magnifier lens? 371 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 11: We do have hand magnifying lenses, but we also use 372 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 11: digital photography very extensively, where we can download the picture 373 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 11: to a computer and enlarge the picture and blow it 374 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 11: up and look at look at it in more careful detail. 375 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 3: Okay, So to put that in a way that regular 376 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 3: people like myself would understand, it's like when you take 377 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 3: a picture with your cellphone and then you blow it 378 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 3: up with your fingers, or you look through your lens 379 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 3: and you blow it up to see something. I just 380 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 3: recently had to do that getting a splinter out of 381 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 3: Lucy's foot because of that process Gallagher's talking about right now. Okay, 382 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 3: as you can say, Docter Gallagher, are there are going 383 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 3: to be many stops and starts to this answer. 384 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 11: Go ahead, right, And so basically what we're looking for 385 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 11: are things that are unusual or unexpected, un decomposed remains 386 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 11: or remains, for instance, a cat hair or a dog hair. 387 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 11: Animal hair looks a lot different than human hair. It's 388 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 11: very coarse, it's usually straight, and it's a different color 389 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 11: than the head hair. So we will collect that. And 390 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 11: you have to remember that when the body is picked up, 391 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 11: it goes through a lot of different people. For instance, 392 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 11: the people who process the scene. You have to make 393 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 11: sure that they don't leave hair on the remains. People 394 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 11: who transport the body leaves hair on their remains. So 395 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 11: everything has to be collected and then traced back to. 396 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 2: The livery service. 397 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 11: The people who are helping you make sure it's not 398 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 11: from them, and then by the fault would be from 399 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 11: the remains, and then that would be from the scene, 400 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 11: and we can process that piece of a DNA or 401 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 11: that piece of trace evidence for identification processes. 402 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 2: So you spot it. 403 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,719 Speaker 10: Where it becomes more this is Toby. Where it becomes 404 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 10: more complex though, is yes, you're doing a visual examination 405 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 10: using oblique lighting to spot things or look for things 406 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 10: that are out of place. But when you get to 407 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 10: processing actual crime scenes rooms things like that, like say 408 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 10: the room at his house, you use a vacuum cleaner. 409 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 10: They have special vacuum cleaners that they use or vacuums 410 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 10: that they use that have collection containers on them, and 411 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 10: they basically vacuum up the rooms to catch as much 412 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 10: and as much trace material as possible, which is a 413 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 10: nightmare from the analysts point of view because they have hundreds, 414 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 10: if not thousands of this debris that they have to 415 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 10: sort through. But you know they'll process the crime scenes 416 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 10: or potential crime scenes like that room in his house, 417 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 10: by using these vacuums to collect all the trace evidence. 418 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 3: Cheryl McCollum, we have many, many times encountered the use 419 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 3: of the vac explain. 420 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 5: Them that it is probably one of the best tools 421 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 5: right now to extract DNA off items. And it can 422 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,959 Speaker 5: be taken to the crime scene, so you don't have 423 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 5: to just take everything and get it back to the lab. 424 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 5: You can do it right there. And it's a system 425 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 5: that almost looks like the vacuum cleaner you can rent 426 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 5: to do. Like a steam clean it shoots out solution 427 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 5: and sugs it back up at the exact same time, 428 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 5: and then it filters through a system that leaves the 429 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 5: DNA at the top, and you have this DNA that 430 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 5: you can get from a rock, from rope, from wood 431 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,239 Speaker 5: floors to a victim's body. So to me, it's the 432 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 5: best thing going right now to extract DNA off potential evidence. 433 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 8: But can I make another point about what. 434 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 5: They're doing right now at that scene, please do? Yeah, 435 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 5: if this was my scene, I would be going into 436 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 5: the walls that I'll be taking up the flooring after 437 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 5: I did everything else. He's got places that he could 438 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 5: potentially hide things. But this is what you're watching. They 439 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 5: do not know right now how everything connects, how every 440 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 5: piece of a puzzle that they're finding is going to 441 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 5: give you this overall picture. They don't know what could 442 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 5: be a trophy. So when you see them taking out 443 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:50,919 Speaker 5: the dolls and taking rope, and taking jewelry and taking pictures, 444 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 5: all of these things, they're going to collect even if 445 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 5: they don't know how it fits right now. That's what 446 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 5: they're doing later as well. 447 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 3: Hey, I'm so glad you say we have that. Cheryl 448 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 3: McCollum back to Kristin Thorn joining me, investigative reporter w ABC, 449 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 3: that's Channel seven Eyewitness News. Also she's a star of 450 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 3: Hulu's true crime show Missing Kristin. What Cheryl just said 451 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 3: really important because I believe that there are other victims, 452 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 3: whether they're in Vegas or South Carolina or right there 453 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 3: in the Tri state area at some other dumping site, 454 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 3: which is entirely possible because we know he used Gilgo 455 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 3: Beach because it was so convenient to his place is 456 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 3: twenty five minute drive max. And in the middle of 457 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 3: the night when he's dumping these bodies, it's probably more 458 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 3: like an eighteen minute drive, so we know he wants 459 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 3: convenience in dumping bodies. 460 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:42,360 Speaker 2: We know that. 461 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 3: I wonder if he was using the back of that 462 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 3: Chevy Avalanche to transport bodies. But that said, things he 463 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 3: that are, things that are being taken out of the 464 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 3: home could link to other victims, not just the Gilgo 465 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 3: Beach victims, beyond, because if he is a souvenir keeper, 466 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 3: a trophy keeper, he'll have trophies from other women, not 467 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 3: just these women Kristen. 468 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 7: Absolutely and Nancy. That's why they're spending so much time 469 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 7: at this house. You know, I've covered crime scenes and 470 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 7: homicides for what almost twenty years, and to still have 471 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 7: investigators at this house nearly a week later tells you 472 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 7: that they are ripping that house apart. They are going 473 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 7: through every single inch of it. And I loved hearing 474 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 7: from your experts about these different tools that they use. 475 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 7: I had no idea that that's what they're using. How 476 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 7: fascinating that is. But that's why that work is so 477 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 7: important and why they have to be so careful, and 478 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 7: why they're spending all this time at that house and 479 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 7: at those two storage units because they do need to 480 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,959 Speaker 7: get down to the studs. They're going to have to 481 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 7: do that. 482 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 10: This is totally to interject when you're doing taking a 483 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 10: part of a house or a car or anything. People 484 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 10: are not very good at cleaning up blood. And one 485 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 10: of the places where it's not unusual to find large 486 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 10: amounts that they've missed is when you pull up the carpeting. 487 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,239 Speaker 10: You may get it to the point of looking like 488 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 10: the carpet's clean. Patting under the carpet, it's a big sponge. 489 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 10: I can't tell you how many cars or crime scenes 490 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 10: I've been at where we were asked to remove the 491 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 10: carpeting to see what was under it, and we found 492 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 10: enormous amounts of biological materials in the form of blood 493 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 10: that hopefully has not deteriorated to the point where we 494 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 10: can't analyze it, but it's there. It lasts for very 495 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 10: long periods of time because you can't see it and 496 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 10: it's protected. 497 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 5: I agree completely they are doing a systematic demolition. 498 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 2: On that app I pray they are. 499 00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace. 500 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 3: Guys in the last hours literally, the wife of alleged 501 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,959 Speaker 3: serial killer Rex Human, has filed for a divorce. I 502 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 3: think we know why, and we're talking about how you 503 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 3: can ignore signals. This is we learned that police are 504 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 3: now interviewing sex workers across the board, trying to find 505 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 3: out if any of them know anything regarding Rex human 506 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 3: But I want to talk about Linda Yates. Her husband 507 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 3: a prolific serial killer we believe murdered up to eighteen people, 508 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 3: most of them either sex workers or with drug problems. 509 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 3: She thought he was cheating on her because she would 510 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 3: find evidence he was staying at pay by the our 511 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 3: local motels in Spokane. He claimed when she confronted him, 512 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 3: he just wanted to use the hot tub to help 513 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 3: his aching joints. When she found blood in a vehicle, 514 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 3: he claimed he had hit a dog and had tried 515 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 3: to save it. So it seems to me that these 516 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 3: spouses are willing to accept whatever story the killer tells them. 517 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 3: Kristin Thorne, so many developments all at once. I'm very 518 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 3: curious what you think and what it means, which I'll 519 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 3: go to the rest of the panel on this. That 520 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 3: Rex Huerman actually called one of the victim's sisters and 521 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 3: taunted her. To me, that means he was very amateurish 522 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 3: he wasn't thinking about leaving a trail, and his sato 523 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 3: massochism was at such a high level, well actually just sadism, 524 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 3: that it overtook his common sense because he enjoyed calling her, 525 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 3: taunting her from the victim's cell phone. What do you 526 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 3: make of that, Kristen Thorne, what can you tell us 527 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 3: about it? 528 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 7: Not just taunting her, he told her, And the family 529 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 7: has put this out there in the media years ago 530 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 7: that they had received this phone call. They tried to 531 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 7: keep it quiet for a little bit and then they 532 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 7: put it out. But not only did he taunt them, 533 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 7: he told them the sister what he did to Melissa Bartholome, 534 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 7: how he raped her, how he killed her, and they 535 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,479 Speaker 7: immediately notified authorities. The authorities traced where this call may 536 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 7: have come from, which of course is midtown Manhattan, which 537 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 7: we know around Penn Station, but close enough to where 538 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 7: rock Herrman's office was, and they couldn't find anything, obviously, 539 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 7: But you know, when you look at the timeline. Nancy, 540 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 7: your expert the other day, brought up a very interesting point. 541 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 7: You know, Maureen, the first victim disappeared in two thousand 542 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 7: and seven. Melissa was two thousand and nine, So there 543 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 7: was a little bit of a gap there. And I 544 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 7: wonder if, because one of your experts mentioned this with 545 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 7: serial killers and psychopaths, that they get deeper and deeper 546 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 7: into their behavior, right, this sick behavior. And I wonder 547 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 7: if after Melissa disappeared, if he thought this phone call 548 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 7: was the next step, correct, this next step in this 549 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 7: process of becoming this this killer, and to call the 550 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 7: family and to do that is such a level of 551 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 7: the pravity and to leave that with the family for 552 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 7: all of this time, Nancy. I also want to tell 553 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 7: you that the sex workers that I've been talking to 554 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 7: that are currently working in New York City and they 555 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 7: are on site that obviously I am not on and 556 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 7: most people that I know are not on for the 557 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 7: work for getting clients. There's a lot of talk in 558 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 7: the sex worker community right now in the New York 559 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 7: price State that women had gone to police about Rex Sherman, 560 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 7: and their agencies that they work for had gone to 561 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 7: police because he was a problematic client. And that's something 562 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 7: I definitely want to try to figure out. We know 563 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 7: that the sex worker community is not listened to, These 564 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 7: women are disregarded, and so if there was you know, 565 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 7: agencies out there that had notified police about this problematic client. 566 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 7: That is certainly concerning. 567 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 2: It really is. 568 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 3: So many red flags of alarm were waved, like the 569 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 3: Matador tape in front of the bull, but nothing was done. 570 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 3: Speaking of of take a listenerur cut seventy eight our 571 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 3: friend Stacy Sagre ABC seven. 572 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 9: Former escort Nicki Brass, who says human solicited her approximately 573 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 9: eight years ago. 574 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 5: I had a really really bad feeling, like my gut 575 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 5: was like telling men needed to get away from. 576 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,800 Speaker 4: Him, especially when he actually mentioned the Gilgo case. 577 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 2: She says. 578 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 5: When he talked about it, he would like speak in 579 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 5: a day and hypothetical, but he had this like smile 580 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 5: on his face. 581 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 8: I mean me really uneasy. 582 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: She ended the date early. 583 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 3: Okay to doctor Sherry Schwartz joining US forensic psychologist. We've 584 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 3: seen that many times before, the defendant having a peculiar 585 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:04,879 Speaker 3: interest in the case prior to his arrest, fixating on it, well, 586 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 3: watching TV reports, just compulsive Google searches, trying to find 587 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 3: out and in this case, Hureman was apparently searching all 588 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 3: of the victims, the police movements, and the victims' families. 589 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 3: They're whereabouts, what they look like as the years passed. 590 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 3: What do you make of it? 591 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:29,240 Speaker 9: Doctor, Well, it's really interesting because we have a true 592 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 9: crime obsessed culture because it's interesting, these cases are very fascinating. 593 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 9: But when it weaved into the water of looking at 594 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 9: police movements in the case, that's not normal. 595 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 10: Right. 596 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 9: So, if somebody's looking into the murders because it's interesting 597 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 9: to them, they maybe want to try to solve the case, 598 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 9: they want to try to understand who's doing this, that's 599 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 9: normal behavior. It becomes abnormal when they're obsessed with the 600 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 9: police investigation in the case and really doing what they 601 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 9: can to track that information. And that is when you 602 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,280 Speaker 9: have to take a very very close look at this person. 603 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 9: Why would they have such an interest in that if 604 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 9: they're not a former law enforcement officer or they're not 605 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 9: a current investigator who might be interested in getting in 606 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 9: on trying to solve the case. 607 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,800 Speaker 3: If you have information or think that you have information, 608 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 3: please dial one eight hundred two two zero TIS one 609 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 3: eight hundred to two zero tips Goodbye.