1 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. I am really excited 2 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:12,479 Speaker 1: because I have read every single one of his novels. 3 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: I've read his film reviews for The Washington Post for years. 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: He is a remarkable author of over twenty novels, including 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: I Think the best Book's ever written about sniping. He 6 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: is the retired chief film critic for The Washington Post, 7 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: where he won the two thousand and three Pulitzer Prize 8 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: for Distinguished Criticism. He has also published two collections of 9 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: film criticism and a non fiction ort, American Gunfight. His 10 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: latest book, Basil's Wore, a World War two spy thriller, 11 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: is available now, and he has another book targeted coming 12 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: this January two, twenty two. I have for years been 13 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: looking forward to a chance to talk to Stephen Hunter, 14 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: because he is so clever, as so many insights, and 15 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: knows so much that is just remarkable. So Stephen, thank 16 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: you for joining me on news World. Dude, I'm very 17 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: glad to be here. I can't tell you what a 18 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: privilege this is for me and Speaker of the House 19 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: or just another fan. It's always great to hear nice 20 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: things about the effort I've put into the way I've 21 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: spent my life. Well, that's why I'm really curious about. 22 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you were born in Kansas City, Missouri. By 23 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: the way, my dad was a career infantryman in the Army, 24 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: and I spent three years at Fort Riley as a child. 25 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: You grew up in the Chicago area. Your dad was 26 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: a professor, your mother wrote children's books. When you graduated 27 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: the number three quarters of your class from the Middle 28 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: School of Journalism at Northwestern which is a great, great university, 29 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty eight, and then you spent two years 30 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: in the US Army. You joined the Baltimore Sign in 31 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, which is a great historic newspaper that 32 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: produced Frank Kent and be produced a number of remarkable critics. 33 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: You then worked there for twenty six years as a 34 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: copy reader, book review editor, feature writer. In beginning of 35 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one, is the paper's first full time critic. 36 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: You know, you clearly paid your dues learning the business. 37 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: Let me just start with that. I mean, you must 38 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: have really enjoyed the process of working in a newspaper. Yeah, 39 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: I did. There's such a thing as a newsroom personality. 40 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: There are people who are just destined by virtue of 41 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: the way they think and the way they talk and 42 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: the way they interact to go into a newsroom, and 43 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: I was one of those people. And God only knows 44 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: what would happened to be if I followed my father 45 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: in law's advice and become an insurance salesman. But I 46 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: got in the room, and I was an other mediocrity 47 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: before I got there. I was an other mediocrity for 48 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: a long time there, but I gradually found my place, 49 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: my voice, and I suppose my career. I was at 50 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: the Sun for twenty six years. I was at the 51 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: Post for eleven years, thirty eight years total. It was 52 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 1: great experience and I'm so happy for it because it 53 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: let all the other good things that came after it 54 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: to come after it. Of course, you were a finalist 55 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: both in ninety five and in ninety six for a 56 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prize for criticism. While you're at the Sun. That 57 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: had to be a pretty heavy experience, and it was great, 58 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: but it was also disappointing that legendary journalism is that 59 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: you'll never win that prize unless you've been a finalist. 60 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: So you become a finalist, you don't win, but you 61 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: have a real shot. The next year. Unfortunately, and this 62 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: is true of everything, as you know from your career, 63 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: in my career, politics, politics, politics, You know, the Pilitzer 64 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: Prizes aren't a pristine, holy journalistic inner prize of purity 65 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: and ideals. It's a lot of grubby backslapping and horse 66 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: trading and you scratch my back off, scratched your back, 67 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. And I lost out the second time, 68 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 1: and that was extremely disappointing and for a while then 69 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: I think it was seven more years before I finally won. 70 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: And when I won, I was not expecting it. I 71 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: didn't know I was a finalist. So it's an extraordinary 72 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: moment in my life to tell me that when they 73 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,679 Speaker 1: told me, I jumped three feet off the floor, which 74 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: is funny because I've never been able to jump more 75 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: than two feet off the floor. I would think that 76 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: would be an occasion for a little partying. There was 77 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: a lot of partying. And I'm happy to say that 78 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 1: Sally Queen finally spoke to me when I won the Pulitzerprise. 79 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: She'd sat three desk away from me for two years, 80 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: and her eyes were blink and it was like a 81 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 1: glitch in the radar, which she passed over me. But 82 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: I won the Pulitzerprise, and for at least one night 83 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: she was nice to me. That's wild. So I'm curious 84 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: when you were at the Sun, particularly early days, was 85 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: there anything left of the spirit of hl mention or 86 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: had that long since gone away? The answer is yes, me. 87 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: The Sun when I joined it was in sad shape. 88 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: It had fallen way down. I said, odd, think it 89 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:48,559 Speaker 1: was like a flat bear aristocrat. It remembered the old days, 90 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: and still thought it was of the old days. But 91 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: the world had passed it by the whole approach of 92 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: journalism had changed, and the Sun didn't get it. And 93 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: I benefit enormously from a palace revolution. It took place 94 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty where a lot of people put their 95 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: jobs on the line and said, look, this newspaper has 96 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: to change, we have to get with it. And there's 97 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: a consequence of that. It's like products spring. A lot 98 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: of possibilities were opened, and many people who the paper 99 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 1: hadn't considered valuable were able to get important jobs. And 100 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: I was one of them. And I can't quite say 101 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: the rest is history. I can only say the rest 102 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: is you know, small jay journalism history, both who were marrying. 103 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: But one of the things that proud us of is 104 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: I was part of a movement that I believe made 105 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: the Son better and helped it retain a certain level 106 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: of the greatness that men can had brought to it 107 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: in the twenty and he's one of the great newspapers 108 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 1: in the twenties and thirties and forties. And if you know, 109 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 1: nothing lasts forever, and the Sun didn't last forever, but 110 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: I think we gave it a last hurrah. That's fascinating 111 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: because I learned journalism under a guy named Paul Walker, 112 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: who had been a columnist in Harrisburg and then had 113 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: set up a weekly giveaway paper and all that stuff, 114 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: and starting at about eleven years of age, he took 115 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: me under his wing, and he was a huge fan 116 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: of Frank Kent, who was the other half of the 117 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: great political team with me and Menkin, of course, was 118 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: remarkably cynical and clever, and Kent was just an old 119 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: fashioned street reporter who wanted to actually figure out what 120 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: was going on in politics. And a lot of my 121 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: early political education came care of the Baltimore Sun, so 122 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: I had a deep affection, but I had always thought 123 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: they frankly just ran out of money. But I gathered 124 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: from you that, in fact, part of this was just 125 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: a cultural problem that they got stuck into a certain 126 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: cultural sense of themselves and couldn't break loose. That's absolutely true. 127 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: Because I'm a sports fan, I always make athletic analogies, 128 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: and they talk about certain teams get a culture of losing, 129 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: they get used to losing, They're okay with losing, they're 130 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: okay with who they are, and those are teams that 131 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: desperately need to be shaken up. And what happened to 132 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: the Sun was even the board understood that it needed 133 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: to be shaken up, that is the board of trustees. 134 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: And what they did was, this is a name you'll 135 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 1: know from history, REDS Burfrey from Atlanta. They brought him 136 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: and he may know him personally, and he remade the 137 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: Son in a couple of years and brought in new people. 138 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 1: And then a few years after that they brought in 139 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: John Carroll from the Philadelphia Inquirer. And John was a 140 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:57,439 Speaker 1: magnificent journalist and he was the one who really, I mean, 141 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: Legg opened the door and John kicked it wide open. 142 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 1: And that's why I think the Sun of the mid 143 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: eighties through the turn of the century became a great 144 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: paper again. Of course, everything changed to journalism when the 145 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: Internet came along, and the great river of money that 146 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: poured into newspapers from classified ads suddenly dried up, and 147 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: they had to shrink themselves drastically just to keep their 148 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: nose afloat. And they sacrificed writing, They sacrificed deep reporting, 149 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,959 Speaker 1: They sacrificed so much just to stay afloat. I mean, 150 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: we could carry this through to the day. One of 151 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: the things that happened was like a ball team loaded 152 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: with superstars who made too much and didn't contribute enough. 153 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: They had to fire a lot of senior people, not fire, 154 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: but retire a lot of senior people. And what ended 155 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: up with was a paper that was run by people 156 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: who are not experienced enough or old enough to run 157 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: them and to make those decisions. And as a large 158 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: part to do with what's going on, I'm sorry to 159 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: say in newspapers now, that is why I think they 160 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: turned so left. That is why I think they lost 161 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: the power of the commitment to objectivity. That is why 162 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: in New York Times the reporter can say I'm biased 163 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: and I'm okay with that. If you said that before 164 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: the year twenty oh five, you would have either been 165 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: sent to cover sore politics in New Jersey or fired 166 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: on the spot. And now it's just part of the game. 167 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: I did watch the business change radically over by forty 168 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: years of journalism. Well, you know you mentioned Rouge Murphy 169 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: was a friend of mine, and he was one of 170 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: my mentors. I was a college student at Emory and 171 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: he was the political reporter for the a lot of Constitution, 172 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: and he was very generous and sitting around and telling 173 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: stories and teaching me. And it's just a great remarkable 174 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: person who I admired. You're out the sun, you're doing 175 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: your job, and you decide to write novels. How did 176 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: that happen? Well, I had actually written novels before I 177 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: became the film of critic. I have a little kind 178 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: of gift for storytelling, for narrative fiction, and I was 179 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,599 Speaker 1: able to persuade a New York publisher to publish a 180 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: book of mine. My first book was published in nineteen eighty. 181 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: It was called The Master Sniper. I make this sounds 182 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: so straightforward like it was a straight line. It was, 183 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: in fact, line with many failures and many follies and 184 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: many wrong decisions. But by the time the film creative's 185 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: job came open, I had published two novels, and one 186 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 1: of my motivations for writing the novels was that I 187 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: knew it would help me on the newspaper because no 188 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: one else was doing it. And this is a note 189 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: to young journalists who maybe listening. You want to validate 190 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: yourself outside the newspaper that will please people inside the paper. 191 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: And I was able to validate myself by publishing two 192 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: books with a big, fancy Mandarin New York publishing house, 193 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: and three years before I'd been a nobody, but suddenly 194 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,599 Speaker 1: I was somebody, and that made me a viable candidate 195 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: when this job came open. Now I'm leaving a lot 196 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: of nitpicky politics out of it, but that's generally the 197 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: shape that my career took, and I could not have 198 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: become a film critic had I not been a novelist. However, 199 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: the real question in my career was because the film 200 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: critic is a write and intensive job. You're writing a 201 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: lot every week, some goods. You're writing career for pieces 202 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 1: of day, and the question is will you have enough 203 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: when you get home that night to do more work. 204 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: And I was amazed to find out that I was 205 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: able to do that. And what was astonishing about that 206 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 1: was I am, and I say, it's an all honesty 207 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 1: to genitally lazy. I am a lazy person. But once 208 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: I got the rhythm going, once I got used to 209 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: the good things that had brought me, somehow that made 210 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: up for my laziness, and I was able to get 211 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: my you know what in the chair and thought of 212 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: versus typewriter, than an electric typewriter, than a priuitive computer, 213 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: and finally onto a more sophisticated computer. Although my computer 214 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: is still stuck in the year nineteen eighty five, so 215 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: I did forget about the technology at a certain point. 216 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: But the two seem to feed off each other in 217 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 1: the sense that the newspaper work gave me a taste 218 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: for fast and dirty. You write the piece, you make 219 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: it as good as you can, Your editors help you 220 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: make it a little bit better. It goes in the paper, 221 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: people say nice things about it, or they ignore you, whichever, 222 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: And then, and this is what's cool about journalism. You 223 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: start fresh the next day. You're always reinventing every single day, 224 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: and that's cool. People love that. People get addicted to 225 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: that in journalism. The novels, on the other hand, give 226 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: you a chance to try and get it right over 227 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: the long haul, over time, and it may take fore 228 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: or four drafts, it may take four or five years. 229 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: You may never get there, but you have a goal. 230 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: You have to pursue the tiny increments every day, and 231 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: you have to take pleasure in the journey rather than 232 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: concentrating on the reward. And I found I don't know 233 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: why I could. It surprised to be as well as 234 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: everyone knew me. But I found I somehow I had 235 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: that discipline, and so I was able to do both 236 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: for a number of years. So when you start, you 237 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: pick as your topic the master Sniper, which in a 238 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: sense foreshadows what will be about I think probably half 239 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: your books. Yeah, absolutely, Why did you pick that topic? 240 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: It wasn't so much that I picked it picked me. 241 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: I had written two dovels I had been unable to publish. 242 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: So again, the overnight success was The night was seven 243 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: years long, and I was sitting in the newsroom looking 244 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: at books. One of my jobs was the book review editor. 245 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: I looked at the Rand McNally Atlas of World War two, 246 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: and I was just paging through it, and suddenly I 247 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: came upon an entry for a vampire, which was the 248 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: German infrared night vision sniper system. I had no idea 249 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: they'd ever invented it. I thought I knew about guns 250 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: and a lot about World War Two. Turned out I 251 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: knew nothing about either. But in the second I saw 252 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: that instrument, I saw a novel, and I went home 253 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: that night and I wrote an outline. I wish to 254 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: hell I still had it, but that outline was the 255 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: foundation of the next forty years. And I learned what 256 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: not to do from the unpublishable novels. But I knew 257 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: what I had to do and that book. It seemed 258 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: hard at the time, but in honest truth, it was 259 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: relatively easy to publish. The first editor that saw it 260 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: bought it in one night, so it was just I'd 261 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: learned enough to be able to write a publishable novel. 262 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: I'm intrigued because you're sort of describing two parallel streams. 263 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: One is you're getting better and better as a writer, 264 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: and some of that's just the day to day, practical, 265 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: mundane stuff you've been doing for years. But the other 266 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: is you're beginning to cultivate in your brain and ability 267 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 1: to imagine something which grows into a story which is 268 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: intriguing enough that it keeps the reader reading and begins 269 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: to build an audience for you of people who want 270 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: your next book. And those two streams have to come 271 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: together to truly be a successful novelist, and you pull 272 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: it off. As I said earlier, I look forward to 273 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: every single one of your books. I'm curious if you 274 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: got into sniping because of a World War two reference 275 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: to a German night sight, how did you go on 276 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:00,439 Speaker 1: then to become clearly the finest writer in the world 277 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: on the process of sniping and the psychology of sniping, 278 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: and then some of your books a level of technology 279 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: that is just remarkable. This all got inside you and 280 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: you became really good at it. Well, thank you very much. 281 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 1: The only thing I can say is that somehow, when 282 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,360 Speaker 1: you write, this is something Kurt Vonnegutt he said, when 283 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: I write, I simply become, when I savingly must become. 284 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,239 Speaker 1: And it's not so much about writing or thinking up 285 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: plots or doing research. It's about becoming. And the book 286 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,479 Speaker 1: becomes your life, and you have really no other life. 287 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 1: Something my wife will never understand. You have no other 288 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: life in the book is always either in your mind 289 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: or in your subconscious And I don't see that as 290 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: a skill. I see it as maybe it's a form 291 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: of autism or something, but it's just something. It happens. 292 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: What you really have to train yourself to do is 293 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: to achieve a level of concentration quickly, get there and 294 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: stay there for enough time to do your work and 295 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: then get out. And I think it's more about that 296 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: than it is about anything. Yeah. Sure, there are lots 297 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: of technical things, like I know what questions ask because 298 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: I have sets back knowledge, I know who to talk to. 299 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 1: I can always use the credential of the paper to 300 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,120 Speaker 1: get close to people that I couldn't get to other one. 301 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: You just do what you have to do to do 302 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: the book. I'm so flattered by your sense of awe 303 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: at it, but to me, it doesn't seem that awesome. 304 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 1: It's just my life. It's just what I do, and 305 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: like anyone else, I have follies and failures and mistakes 306 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 1: and words that I regret that I did say or 307 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: I didn't say, and it's just a normal life. And 308 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: the writing, I mean, it's helped me to make it 309 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: a part of my normal life. It's like brushing your teeth. 310 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: You wouldn't think of going out in the morning without 311 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: brushing your teeth. You know, it's habit, it's not will 312 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: I wouldn't think of going out going to bed without writing. 313 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: It's just sort of a part of the fabric and 314 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 1: what you do in your life. Now, you've written some fiction, 315 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: so you wouldn't know. Obs just could not all be 316 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 1: news to you. Well, no, but that's part of why 317 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: I'm so impressed with your ability. Because I have written 318 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: some fiction, and I've worked with some great writers. There's 319 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: an ability on your part to always surprise me. So 320 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 1: I go down one road with you, and I sort 321 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: of get the rhythm of what you're all about, and 322 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: then you pivot. A good example is your book Dirty 323 00:20:55,080 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: White Boys, which suddenly just wrenches the reader and puts 324 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: them in a different environment with different kinds of people 325 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: who are appropriately despicable and violent and moving towards a crisis. 326 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: And at the same time you're creating a crisis for 327 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: the policemen who are trying to deal with them. First 328 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: of all, your writing has many complexities, and that's part 329 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: of what kept me intrigued is it, i'd be following 330 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: all these different parallel threads that you had come up with. 331 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: But you you then begin to get me into the 332 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 1: whole story of the Swagger family and the history of 333 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: the Swagger family, and several of them. I think Hot Springs, 334 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: for example, is practically a work of genius because it 335 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: so captures that town at that particular moment in time, 336 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: and you weave together the family back into the technology, 337 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: back into the reality of life in Arkansas in that era. 338 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: You know, that's quite an artistic ability. Well, the interesting thing, 339 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 1: at least to me, is that all that was a surprise, 340 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: and a very pleasant one for me. If you had 341 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: told me I would essentially be writing family saga if 342 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: you said it to me thirty years ago, I would 343 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: have said, gee, guess what. I'm not interested in families 344 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: or sagas. But each book I wrote raised questions, and 345 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: the only way to answer those questions was to write 346 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: another book. And suddenly I looked back and I had 347 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: knit together this tapestry of an alpha family of gunfighters 348 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: over three generations. Is not a thing I planned. It 349 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: was not a thing I aimed for. At about the 350 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 1: halfway point, I saw what I was doing, and to 351 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: be honest, I was kind of impressed, and I decided, 352 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to push this thing out. I'd 353 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: will use this a moment to tout my next book, 354 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: which is called Targeted. And besides some political aspects to it, 355 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: I finally gave me a chance to explain the Swagger family. 356 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: Where does their genius, where does their courage, where's their talent? 357 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: Where does it come from? And it comes from the 358 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 1: very specific source. And that source as well as the 359 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 1: source of the name, the origin of the name Swagger, 360 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: that will be explained in Targeted. And I'm just so 361 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: pleased that I finally got that into print. It was 362 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 1: not easy. You know, in that town there sort of 363 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: prostate that anything that's a little unusual. But somehow I 364 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: managed to get in. And I think the Swagger people, 365 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: the people who really respond to the Swagger family, will 366 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: really find it interesting and enlightening as to the origin 367 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: of the Swaggers. And I will tell you that getting 368 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: that in was controversial. I had to change publishers. There 369 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: are lots of people that didn't like it. I didn't 370 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: get it. People who weren't familiar, who only read Peace 371 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: Beal and didn't understand that it was a continual saga 372 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,919 Speaker 1: and they had no commitment to the overall picture. Didn't 373 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:16,479 Speaker 1: get it, but I somehow I bumbled and staggered my 374 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: way to a minor triumph in getting it published. So 375 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: I hope you'll look forward to that. Oh I do. 376 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 1: I do. I'm looking forward to January now, and I 377 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 1: don't usually spend my time looking forward. Yeah, it's one 378 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: good thing about January I hope. Let me split in 379 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: two different directions from it. First of all, you write 380 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: authoritatively on the technology, psychology, and practice of sniping. Now, 381 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: you start out, as you described it, essentially by a 382 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: random luck and you suddenly have the right insight. But 383 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: if you take the totality of the books that involved sniping, 384 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: how did you become so expert? It's funny I was 385 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: surprise you by saying this. It was not by talking 386 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: to snipers. And one of the reasons I don't want 387 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 1: to talk to snipers is because if they tell me 388 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: something and I use a version of it but it's 389 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: not exactly what they said, I have to fix it 390 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: to make it better for the book. I don't want 391 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: them being upset or offended or feeling used. So I 392 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: stay away from that part of the force. I finally 393 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 1: have a friend us a sniper, and that's a guy 394 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: you must know, Jack Carr, or the great backfield sniper 395 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: who has now become an extremely successful filler writer. But 396 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 1: before Jack, I didn't quote on any personal relationships with cniper's. 397 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: Lot of it is secondary experience, but mainly it is 398 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: what I would have to say, the stimulation to the 399 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 1: imagination of the gun. I mean, when I was five 400 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: years old, I was fascinated by firearms and it is 401 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: a passion that is not abated in the last seventy years. 402 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: In fact, after we break this up, I'm going to 403 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 1: pick up a new revolver. I bought a new Colt Python, 404 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: and I'm going to go pick that up and shoot 405 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: it for the first time today. In other words, now 406 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: seventy years later, it has it burned out, it has 407 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: it dimmed. And I find that some aspect of firearms 408 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: will always stimulate me in a certain way, and that's 409 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 1: what gets my ekg my electric impulses giggling. And basically 410 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 1: what I'm selling is my electrical impulse because that's my 411 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: imagination working, and I just apply myself. I lose myself. 412 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: I try and put it against a matrix of semi realism. 413 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: You know, I am aware of something. I know that 414 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: Bob gets shot at an awful lot and missed way 415 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: too much. And if I went into combat and I 416 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: was shot at, I probably got hit on the second 417 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: of the third bullet. But the bullets magic way seemed 418 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: to miss him, as they magically missed Buddie Murphy. And 419 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: I think it's okay, you know, because there are men 420 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: who are unusually gifted with the gun and unusually heroic, 421 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 1: and they figured in all our wars, and their existence 422 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: is a matter of fact. It's not a fantasy of Hollywood. 423 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: In fact, it's what inspired the fantasies of Hollywood. So 424 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: I try and get to those guys, create a portrait 425 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: of those guys without the or feting len of Hollywood. 426 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: That stimulates my imagination. And one of the things I 427 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: also wanted to do was I wanted to show these 428 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: guys is having lives. You know, they weren't just alfha 429 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: heroes on comic book covers and leading commando rage and 430 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 1: unrealistic movies. I wanted to show they were connected to society. 431 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: They had wives, they had children, they had family histories. 432 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: They were in but not in society. They were suspicious 433 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 1: of society. And one of the overall arc of the 434 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: whole Swagger uber is to watch well I think of 435 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: it in these terms, it's one myth underlying the whole thing, 436 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: and that is the return of the exiled prince or 437 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: the exiled warrior. In other words, here's a guy. It's 438 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: sort of like Gladiator, but I thought of it forwardly, Scott. 439 00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: Here's a guy who went to the war for you, 440 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: and he makes you nervous because he's so deadly and violent, 441 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: so you exile him, and maybe even you use him 442 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: in some way, and then you discard him. And though 443 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: he's the one who's saved your ass, he's not rewarded. 444 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: He's punished for that. And the movement of Swagger himself 445 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: and several other Snipers saves from being used, is to 446 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: restore that warrior prince to his earned role in society. 447 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: And if I've been any part of a movement to 448 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: view these guys with respect and understand the sacrifices that 449 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: they've made for us and the efforts they've put in 450 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: for us, that's my legacy. That makes me very happy 451 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: because that's what I was trying to do. Well. Of course, 452 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: while you're describing is King David, David comes out of 453 00:29:51,880 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: tending the sheep, kills Goliath, becomes a threat to establish Shman, 454 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: is forced to flee for his life, spends years as 455 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: a mercenary general, comes back to Israel and saves it 456 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: and becomes arguably as great as King. That is exactly 457 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: the story that it's Barriss bones stripped. Take it out 458 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: of Israel, take it out of everything. Just that story. 459 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: It's a great story. I think the story always will 460 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: be worth telling, and it's the story I am telling, 461 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: though without David sling, only with Remington's rifle. And as 462 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: I say, you know, maybe it's that mythic or cultural 463 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: undertone that people respond to that sort of I may 464 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: use a too fancy word here, subtextual meaning that people 465 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: respond to and take pleasure in. And that's a note 466 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: I'm aggressively trying to sound. And you get it, and 467 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: you know, lots of people get it, but there are 468 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: also some people who will never get it. But that's okay. 469 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: It's a big world. So let me ask you. And 470 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: I can't remember now whether it's in time to hunt 471 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: or what it is. But you have one novel in 472 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: which they end up having to cross with a North 473 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: Vietnamese battalion, and my senses it's based on a real story. 474 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: It was Carlos Halfcock who ambushed and destroyed an entire 475 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: in order of Vietnamese platoon, and I expanded it. I see, 476 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: this is what I mean about not wanting to use 477 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: real stories. I mean, I suppose I could have talked 478 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: to Carlos, but I wanted the freedom to create the 479 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: story as I thought it needed to be on the scale, 480 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: it needed to be in the book, and so I 481 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: wrote it inspired by him. Something like that did happen. 482 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: Most of my gunfights are based on or suggested real 483 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: gun fights. Sometimes I recreate, as in the FBI book, 484 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: I recreated all the gunfights of nineteen thirty four with 485 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: immaculate detail. And sometimes, you know, just read something will 486 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: stick in my mind and I'll use it as a 487 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: model years later. One of the questions we're getting at 488 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: here is the distance of the writer from his material. 489 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: And I don't consider myself a documentary fiction is because 490 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: I understand, as I said earlier, that something's happened that 491 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: probably wouldn't happen like a lot of people shoot it, Bob, 492 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: and he rarely gets hit. He does get hit, but 493 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: he survives an awful lot of close shaves, and you know, 494 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 1: sooner or later you've got to thank the law of 495 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: averages are against him. I try and be close enough 496 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: to reality that it feels real to people in the 497 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: reading of it, and then it's okay if later they say, well, 498 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: he sure was lucky there, or boy, it was an 499 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: all a big coincidence that that snowstorm showed up exactly 500 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: There are just things you have to do to make 501 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: the story a makes sense and be making a little 502 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: bit better. And of course you never know. If the 503 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: snowstorm hadn't showed up, something else might have exactly right, 504 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: So you have this magic moment. I guess it was 505 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: magic when one of your books, Point of Impact, ends 506 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: up with Mark Wahlberg on the big screen. What was 507 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: the experience like of having your novel turned into a movie. Well, 508 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: it was like seeing one of your own dreams from 509 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: someone else's perspective. It was somewhat unsettling to see everything 510 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: you imagine but not as you imagined it, so you 511 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: had contradictory mental impulses. Part of you was saying, Oh, 512 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: that's so cool, and another part of you're saying no, no, 513 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: that's not right. And in the end it just leaves 514 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: you sort of That is as a viewing experience, it 515 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 1: just leaves you sort of what can I say, baffled? 516 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I think Antoine fucl is a great director, 517 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,879 Speaker 1: and he put together some top rate action pieces in 518 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: that movie. I mean, one of the problems I always 519 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: have is that the movies havegotten so good at this stuff, 520 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: you really really have to work hard to come up 521 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 1: with something they haven't thought of as yet. And I 522 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: thought he did on most of these things. Thought he 523 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: did a very very good job of the action. And 524 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 1: one of the evidence of that is that movie has 525 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: acquired a sort of cult status among shooters. I've talked 526 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,359 Speaker 1: to people who've seen it twenty times, and they just 527 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: love the fact that the gun handling was professional, that 528 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: the body reactions to the shots was professional, that the 529 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,479 Speaker 1: use of cover and the use of firing move all 530 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,839 Speaker 1: that was dramatized at a professional level, as opposed to 531 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: the generic nonsense that most HollyHood generates. I will say, 532 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,280 Speaker 1: probably you'll agree with me on this that I didn't 533 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,399 Speaker 1: like the ending. They didn't think my ending was strong enough, 534 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: so they put on this ending where Bobbly goes and 535 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:25,839 Speaker 1: shoots ned baby senator in the head, and that left 536 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: me a little queasy. And he wouldn't do that to me. 537 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: It's very hard for me to be bitter about it. 538 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: A because I made a lot of money, and be 539 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: because they were very good to me, and see because 540 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: that was the only movie we were going to get. 541 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: It's not like there's going to be another one. And 542 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 1: so in the end, you know, I'm okay with it. 543 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: Ask me, do I love it? No? Do I approve 544 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: of the ending? No? Do I like a lot of 545 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: the stuff in it? Yes? I do. Do I like 546 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: the changes they made in moving into Africa, making him 547 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: a young guy instead of an old guy. That works 548 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 1: for me? You know that's okay. I understand that for 549 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: their demographic, vietnamous just to nail on a map. It's 550 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: not a war, and if there's no passions or memories 551 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: that would for you and I. So I walked away 552 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:24,760 Speaker 1: from that experience richer but wiser, and it was cool. 553 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: But you have to accept that there's going to come 554 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 1: a day when they stop returning your phone calls. And 555 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: you can't be bitter about that. You know, you can't 556 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: get angry about that. That's the system. Okay, they moved on. 557 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: You have to move on. Somebody said to me one time. 558 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: The reason they pay you the money, and so you 559 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,760 Speaker 1: will be quiet and they will get to make the movie. 560 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:53,799 Speaker 1: Do you want to accept that deal or not? So 561 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,879 Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask you one political question, and only one 562 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: political question. But given your affection for I have a 563 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: hunch you probably favored the Second Amendment. I kind of 564 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: almost do well. In fact, Targeted is very much disquisition. 565 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: I said. It was explicitly political, more so than most 566 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: of my world. But it's a disquisition on the use 567 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 1: of force in society, and it's extremely anti defund the 568 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 1: police thrust of the story. You need a guy with 569 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 1: a gun. Okay, you may not like him, you may 570 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 1: not like the gun, but if you get rid of 571 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: the good guy with a gun, you are a fool. 572 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: I think that sort of summarizes it. Steve. I want 573 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: to thank you. This has been a thrill for me 574 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: to chat with you, having been a fan of your 575 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,240 Speaker 1: work for years, and I want to let our listeners 576 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: know We'll have a link to your books, including Basil's work, 577 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: on our show page at Newtsworld dot com. And I 578 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: can tell you right now I am looking forward to 579 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,919 Speaker 1: target it and I am confident that it will keep 580 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 1: me totally engrossed. I want to thank you so much. 581 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 1: This has been great funt for me. Well, thank you 582 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: and good luck picking up your new pistol. Thank you, 583 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: newt thank you so much. Thank you. To my guest 584 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: Stephen Hunter, you can get a link to his recent book, 585 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,919 Speaker 1: Basil's War, a World War two spy thriller, on our 586 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: show page at newtsworld dot com. News World is produced 587 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: by Gingwish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is 588 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: Debbie Myers, our producer is Guardzi Sloan, and our researcher 589 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created 590 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: by Steve Peman. Special thanks to the team at Gingwich 591 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll 592 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: go to Apple Podcasts and both rate us with five 593 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,439 Speaker 1: stars and give us a review so others can learn 594 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 1: what it's all about. Right now, listeners of Newtsworld can 595 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,720 Speaker 1: sign up for my three free weekly columns at Gingwich 596 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 1: three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm new Gingrich. This 597 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:03,919 Speaker 1: is new towel.