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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio

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Speaker 1: is How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and

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Speaker 2: there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant and this is Stuff You

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Speaker 2: Should Know another in our Endless Annals of New York

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Speaker 2: City edition.

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Speaker 3: That's right, this is pretty interesting episode, I think. And

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Speaker 3: my favorite part about it this was Dave Ruse are

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Speaker 3: one of our writers. He'll put this together. And Dave

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Speaker 3: is clearly annoyed, yeah about this whole thing. And I

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Speaker 3: think it's hysterical how many times he gets annoyed by

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Speaker 3: the laziness of the commission.

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Speaker 2: I have to say I agreed with Dave too. I

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Speaker 2: was annoyed by it as well. I think, Yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: always annoying when you see somebody like have a great

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Speaker 2: opportunity and just pee it away, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah.

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Speaker 3: And we should also point out Dave got a lot

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Speaker 3: of his information from a really wonderful book called City

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Speaker 3: on a Grid colon How New York Became New York

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Speaker 3: by Gerald.

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Speaker 2: Keppel, not Gerald McCraney. Different Jerald right or is it Copple?

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Speaker 3: I think it's Keppel. If it's Koe.

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Speaker 2: That's what I was going with, was Kepel.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm going to get this book though. This is

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Speaker 3: right at Maley because you know, I'm obsessed with the

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Speaker 3: history and the sort of formation of New York City

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Speaker 3: as we know it today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, where'd you get the idea for this episode?

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Speaker 3: Just my constant desire to learn about Mannahatta and how

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Speaker 3: that became eventually Manhattan that we know and love.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm just.

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Speaker 3: Fascinated by it. I love it. I love everything about it.

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Speaker 2: This is definitely a big chapter because what we're talking

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Speaker 2: about is the plan called the Commissioner's Plan of eighteen

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Speaker 2: eleven that basically laid out Manhattan as we know and

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Speaker 2: understand and love it today. Everything north of Street, I

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Speaker 2: should say.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And here's sort of a quick primer is Manhattan

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Speaker 3: above Houston is almost a perfect grid. Broadway kind of

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Speaker 3: screws everything up, but you know, great Street, but it's

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Speaker 3: just broadways, Like, I'm not following any rules, so I'm

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Speaker 3: going to confuse people. But aside from that, it's it's

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Speaker 3: pretty much a grid of eleven numbered avenues that run

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Speaker 3: north to south generally speaking. Then you've got Lexington Park

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Speaker 3: and Madison avenues and then two hundred and this was

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Speaker 3: at the time numbered streets running roughly east to west.

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Speaker 3: And if you want to get a little more granular

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Speaker 3: than that, the southernmost street in the East Villages East first,

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Speaker 3: as you would imagine, the northernmost is two hundred and

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Speaker 3: twentieth Street, as we live in Breed today and inwood.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's on the island technically in Manhattan, and if

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Speaker 2: you're talking about the borough, it goes up to two

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Speaker 2: hundred and twenty seventh.

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Speaker 3: I believe, right, And if you want to go through

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Speaker 3: the Bronx, you go all the way up to sixty three.

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Speaker 2: Man, that's crazy. You've got so many streets.

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Speaker 3: That's so many streets.

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Speaker 2: You've got it, two hundred and sixty three streets.

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Speaker 3: You've got an east and West signifier which says and

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Speaker 3: this is sort of a dummies guy to getting around

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Speaker 3: New York for the first time. Too. If you broke

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Speaker 3: your smartphone, and you also don't want to walk around

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Speaker 3: just staring at your smartphone the whole time.

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Speaker 2: No, you're going to miss a lot.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So try and get a little intuitive feel, because

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Speaker 3: it's really easy to get around if you know this stuff.

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Speaker 3: East and west will signify whether you're in east or

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Speaker 3: west of Fifth Avenue. And then here's a little trick too.

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Speaker 3: Odd number street streets run west, even numbers streets run east.

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Speaker 3: So if you come out of a subway and you

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Speaker 3: and you know which way north, south, east, and west are,

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Speaker 3: then you will never do the thing that I always

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Speaker 3: do and walk in the wrong direction trying to go

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Speaker 3: up or down.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because that's the thing. Like, if you know what

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Speaker 2: direction you're facing, and you know where you're trying to

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Speaker 2: go and where you are right now, you can basically

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Speaker 2: make make your way anywhere in Manhattan above Houston Street.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. And if you're like me and you have no

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Speaker 3: idea ever what's north, south, east and west? And you know,

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Speaker 3: I had an easy time in LA because La has

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Speaker 3: the sun, well they have, they have that, but they

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Speaker 3: also have geographical landmarks that make it super easy to

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Speaker 3: tell which way north and like the Hollywood Sign and

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Speaker 3: the hills and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: Is that real? Is the Hollywood Sign real?

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Speaker 3: What do you mean? Is it real? Okay? So that

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Speaker 3: makes a lot easier in New York when I come

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Speaker 3: out there are all those pig tall buildings. I never know,

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Speaker 3: I can never come out and say like, well, that's north.

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Speaker 3: But if you know that stuff, you know that the

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Speaker 3: even numbered streets run east the odd ones run west,

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Speaker 3: then you can you won't walk in the wrong direction

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Speaker 3: for a block and then get there like I do

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Speaker 3: and go, oh, we should have gone the other way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because depending on what direction you're walking, if you're

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Speaker 2: walking north or south, going the wrong direction and a

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Speaker 2: block isn't that bad. But if you're going east or west,

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Speaker 2: it's real bad. Well, because it's very long blocks going

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Speaker 2: east to west. And that's all part of that Commissioner's

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Speaker 2: plan that was laid out in eighteen eleven. And on

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Speaker 2: the one hand, you know, we've kind of hit upon

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Speaker 2: the pros and the cons of it. That it's easy

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Speaker 2: to get around, which is really saying something because New

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Speaker 2: York is absolutely huge. But you could make it from

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Speaker 2: one end to the other without a map, just knowing

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Speaker 2: that it's on a grid and how the grid's laid out,

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Speaker 2: even roughly. But the problem is it's on a grid,

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Speaker 2: and a grid is one of the least organic shapes around.

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Speaker 2: And because this grid stretches over almost all of Manhattan,

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Speaker 2: most of Manhattan, for sure, it's viewed by a lot

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Speaker 2: of people as kind of soulless and canyon esque because

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Speaker 2: you're just totally surrounded almost constantly by big, imposing buildings

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Speaker 2: all at these right angles, which it feels like a

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Speaker 2: very built environment. And until Central Park came along, which

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Speaker 2: we did an episode on in what the eighteen fifties

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Speaker 2: or sixties. Yeah, like that was it. That was New York.

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Speaker 2: There was nothing but that built environment.

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Speaker 3: I got a few more of my things.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, let's have them.

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Speaker 3: But Manhattan's about thirteen and a half miles long. And

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Speaker 3: then so this grid makes sense. But then once you

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Speaker 3: get north of fifty ninth Street, you start to get

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Speaker 3: like Atlanta does, and a road will just change names

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Speaker 3: out of nowhere. Atlanta's very famous for that, and people

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Speaker 3: get very confused. Here.

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Speaker 2: Hey, it's very confusing also because the road will will

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Speaker 2: change names, but one of the names, Peachtree, will still

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Speaker 2: be there, but it's a totally different street, right, and

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Speaker 2: it does not help things.

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Speaker 3: That's right, So north fifty ninth avenues on the west

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Speaker 3: side change names, but avenues on the east side do not.

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Speaker 3: So eighth becomes Central Park, west ninth becomes Columbus Avenue,

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Speaker 3: tenth becomes Amsterdam Avenue and eleventh becomes West End Avenue.

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Speaker 2: What about Avenue of the Americas.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's sixth, right or is that seventh?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Man, I thought, I think it's sixth.

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Speaker 3: I think it's under But that's really not a name change.

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Speaker 3: That's just that's something that that tourists call it.

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Speaker 2: Right. I remember you making fun of me when I

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Speaker 2: call it that? Did I really? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: That sounds about right.

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Speaker 2: It was really jarring.

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Speaker 3: Uh. And then to get people really confused between third

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Speaker 3: and fifth Avenue, there are three avenues instead of what

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Speaker 3: you would think would be one because Lexington Park and

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Speaker 3: Madison fall between those. Yeah, and then south of twenty

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Speaker 3: third you've got your lettered avenues ABC and D, which

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Speaker 3: is alphabet city.

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Speaker 2: So you wouldn't need to have pull out a map.

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Speaker 2: You just have to stand in the middle of New

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Speaker 2: York and listen to the first like ten minutes of

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Speaker 2: this episode, and you'll find your way, no problem.

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Speaker 3: All right? Should we get into this? He said, people

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Speaker 3: don't like the grid. There are a lot of people.

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Speaker 3: I mean, what did Walt Whitman call it.

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Speaker 2: Ikey?

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Speaker 3: I think no, I think he said he called it

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Speaker 3: one perpetual dead flat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and streets cutting each other at right angles are

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Speaker 2: certainly the last things in the world consistent with beauty

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Speaker 2: of situation.

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Speaker 3: How about this one from Edith Wharton Rectangular New York.

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Speaker 3: This cramped horizontal gridiron of a town without towers, porticos, fountains,

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Speaker 3: or perspectives, hide bound in its deadly uniformity of mean ugliness.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I like hide bound. That's great.

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Speaker 3: That's a great word.

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Speaker 2: And mean ugliness definitely captures like a certain sense of

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Speaker 2: New York, depending on your mood or mindset, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's one. A guy named Peter Markhuse who's an architecture critic.

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Speaker 2: He said that the grid layout of Manhattan was one

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Speaker 2: of the worst city plans of any major city in

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Speaker 2: the developed countries of the world.

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Speaker 3: Right, but some people love it. Some people said it

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Speaker 3: was pragmatic. Some people said it really accommodated for the

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Speaker 3: one thing it needed to accommodate for, which was massive growth.

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Speaker 3: Let me see here an architect named Raphael Vinoli, who's

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Speaker 3: I think a modern architect. Not modern, I just mean

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Speaker 3: current architect. But he may do modern work, you knows.

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Speaker 3: He said the grid is the best manifestation of americanmatism,

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Speaker 3: pragmatism in the creation of urban form, and then in

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Speaker 3: nineteen seventy eight, a Dutch architect named rim Kool has

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Speaker 3: said that the grid was the most courageous act of

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Speaker 3: prediction in Western civilization, clearly talking about the growth.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but act that's like architect talk, right that right there.

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Speaker 2: So but for the most part, from what I understand,

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Speaker 2: and definitely Dave says the same thing, most New Yorkers,

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Speaker 2: especially born and raised New Yorkers, are not happy that

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Speaker 2: that's how their city is laid out. That there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of room for improvement. Yeah, your experience too.

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Speaker 3: Sure, I mean Central Park is great. But you know,

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Speaker 3: as we'll find out, they did not. They don't didn't

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Speaker 3: really plan for green spaces, and New York has done

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Speaker 3: their best to kind of carve them out since then.

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Speaker 3: But you know, let's get into this commission.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about grids first. Do you want to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, do you want to take a break

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Speaker 3: and then talk about the grid story?

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Speaker 2: Yes, So New York didn't invent the grid, as much

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Speaker 2: as they liked to boast that they did. They did not.

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Speaker 2: In fact, a grid layout of a city goes back

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Speaker 2: to that Indus Valley civilization that for some reason keeps

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Speaker 2: popping up in the last like year or so. I

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Speaker 2: guess they're going to make a comeback or something like that.

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Speaker 2: But they've just been coming out all over the place.

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Speaker 2: But one of the what was it, Chuck, was it?

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Speaker 2: Did they invent the zipper?

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Speaker 3: I don't think it was a zipper?

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Speaker 2: What was indigo? There's there's been a number of them.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, about at least five thousand years ago, the

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Speaker 2: Indus Valley civilization was using the grid layout to create

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Speaker 2: Mohan Joe Daro, which was a seven and fifty acre

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Speaker 2: city on a grid, and then shortly after that the

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Speaker 2: Greek said, I really like this. In fact, there's a

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Speaker 2: Greek I think you're in mathematician named Hippodamus who's known

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Speaker 2: as the father of city planning, and he was bully

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Speaker 2: for grids too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if you have a grid, that's still they people

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Speaker 3: still call that the Hippodamian plan, which is kind of

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Speaker 3: great all these years later to still get recognized for

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Speaker 3: your grid work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're ever talking to somebody and they refer

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Speaker 2: to a grid as a Hippodamian plan, that person knows

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Speaker 2: what they're talking.

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Speaker 3: About, or listens to this show.

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Speaker 2: It's one in the same basically, and.

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Speaker 3: You're going to say that, let me see, the conquistadors

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Speaker 3: of Spain, they kind of had a habit of coming

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Speaker 3: in conquering and then having their template in place to

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Speaker 3: create these grids, as what they call the Law of

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Speaker 3: the Indies, and they would sort of just come in

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Speaker 3: setup shop. You got a town with a big central

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Speaker 3: plaza and then a grid surrounding that central plaza.

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Speaker 2: Right, and they use that for everything from Lima to

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Speaker 2: Los Angeles. And this took me back in my mind

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Speaker 2: to what was the name of that colonial town in

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Speaker 2: Guatemala that we visited.

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Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, I know, I know what you mean.

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Speaker 2: Wow, it was wonderful, driving crazy, it really was wonderful.

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Speaker 2: Is one of the most beautiful towns I've ever been in.

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Speaker 2: But it had like a central plaza with a fountain.

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Speaker 2: It was a much smaller town, but now that I

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Speaker 2: think about, it was laid out on a grid too,

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Speaker 2: and it was part of that Law of the Indies

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Speaker 2: that you were mentioning that. It was just like, this

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Speaker 2: is how you build a town. And apparently the reason

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Speaker 2: that they they used that law like in town after

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Speaker 2: town after town that they just basically took over and

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Speaker 2: said this is ours now it's Spain's. Is applying a

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Speaker 2: grid was kind of a metaphor for applying order and

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Speaker 2: civilization to a formerly disordered and wild indigenous you know town. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: which made sense from a colonizer's perspective, but I'm sure

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Speaker 2: it sucked from the indigenous person's perspective.

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Speaker 3: Like everything else.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's with this stupid right angle stuff.

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Speaker 3: So New York City comes along. Philadelphia had been laid

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Speaker 3: out in a grid by William Penn very deliberately though,

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Speaker 3: and that grid was kind of roomy and spacious because

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Speaker 3: William Penn did not like the congestion of London. But again,

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Speaker 3: Philly very much purposeful with DC too. Yeah, boy, DC

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Speaker 3: has a has kind of a crazy grid.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but once you understand it, it makes total sense.

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Speaker 2: Numbers and letters and directions, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Always, but it takes a little more.

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Speaker 2: It takes more getting used to than New York too,

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Speaker 2: from my experience and what.

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Speaker 3: I understand, Yeah, for sure. So the Commissioner's Plan of

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Speaker 3: eighteen eleven is really sort of the demarcation point between

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Speaker 3: what was first New York, New Amsterdam, and then what

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Speaker 3: we now know is Manhattan. Because anyone who's ever seen

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Speaker 3: almost said Games of New York, Gangs of New York

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Speaker 3: knows that those were crazy days down there in Lower

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Speaker 3: Manhattan and things just sort of sprouted up organically from

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Speaker 3: the river upward as far as the layout and the design.

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Speaker 3: And you know, you can still feel that when you

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Speaker 3: go down to Lower Manhattan, which is why I love

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Speaker 3: the villages. Now. I think it's just I mean, I

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Speaker 3: like the simplicity of the grid, but I think what

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Speaker 3: I love about Lower Manhattan is how organic it feels.

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Speaker 2: It's a jumble, and I mean it's a jumble for

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Speaker 2: a reason, because those streets largely follow these original organic

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Speaker 2: paths that the Dutch settlers and earliest English settlers basically said, oh,

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Speaker 2: we need to get from the waterfront up you know,

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Speaker 2: to the common lands or whatever. Here's a good path. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And this path happens to meander around a salt marsh,

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Speaker 2: and we avoid having to go up a ill by

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Speaker 2: going around this way. So it's kind of like meandering

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Speaker 2: and it's definitely locked in time. From those streets down

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Speaker 2: there in Lower Manhattan. I like it too, but it

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Speaker 2: is very easy to be like, are you sure we're

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Speaker 2: going in the right direction? Still, It's very easy to

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Speaker 2: get lost in those because it isn't at all a grid.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I've spent enough time in Lower Manhattan now to

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Speaker 3: where I can landmarkt like it's just familiar enough to

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Speaker 3: me to where I kind of know, like this block

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Speaker 3: in that block, right, so I know where I'm going.

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Speaker 3: And you mentioned something important. I don't think we've even

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Speaker 3: kind of said that New York was not all this

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Speaker 3: just big, one big flat slab thirteen miles long that

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Speaker 3: we love today because you can walk forever without ever

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Speaker 3: getting out of breath. Because it's not Seattle. New York

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Speaker 3: was swamp land, and it had hills and marshes and

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Speaker 3: creeks and rocks, and it was you know, it was

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Speaker 3: kind of wild East Coast territory.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And I mean the reason that those marshes in

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Speaker 2: the ponds and hills and stuff aren't there anymore is

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Speaker 2: because of this eighteen eleven Commissioner's plan. It basically said,

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Speaker 2: tear it all down, fill it all in, build this

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Speaker 2: over it. And they did. That's the most astounding thing

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Speaker 2: is they did that. They know we'll see they passed

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Speaker 2: a law that basically said, we're going to appoint a

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Speaker 2: commission of three people. They're going to come up with

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Speaker 2: three people, and whatever they come up with is law.

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Speaker 2: It can't be challenged in court, and we're not going

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Speaker 2: to back it up and change it in any way.

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Speaker 2: And they really didn't. As bad as the plan was,

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Speaker 2: in almost every way, they really stuck to it. But

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Speaker 2: the thing that struck me, I had no idea about

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Speaker 2: this was that's the eighteen eleven Commissioner's plan was just

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Speaker 2: a rip off of another earlier surveying map that basically

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Speaker 2: provided the basis of this of the Commissioner's plan, not

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Speaker 2: even the basis of it. They were like, oh, we'll

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Speaker 2: take this as a starting point. They just said, we'll

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Speaker 2: take this printed and put our names on it. And

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Speaker 2: that's ultimately what happened.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, pre Revolutionary War, most of Manhattan was in

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Speaker 3: that lower third of the island, and we got into

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Speaker 3: big time debt because of the Revolutionary War, and so

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Speaker 3: the city said in the seventeen eighties, all right, here's

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Speaker 3: what we got to do. We own tons of land,

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Speaker 3: publicly owned land, and all this marshy, kind of reedy,

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Speaker 3: rocky pondy area. It's not developed. Let's sell the stuff

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Speaker 3: off and make some dough. It's called the common Lands,

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Speaker 3: and we need somebody to get in there and just

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Speaker 3: sort of, you know, survey this and plot it all

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Speaker 3: out so we know exactly how to best sell this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So they hired a guy named Casimir Theodore Girk.

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Speaker 2: That's how I'm going with this, Girk. Sure, it's not

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Speaker 2: a cucumber, it's a gurkin. Do you remember mister cabbage

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Speaker 2: Head from Kids in the Shore? Well, this had nothing

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Speaker 2: to do with that, right, right. So this surveyor actually

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Speaker 2: went through the common Lands, like basically what we understand

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Speaker 2: is all of Manhattan between Houston and North Harlem. He

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Speaker 2: just went across and broke it into five hundred acre parcels.

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Speaker 2: He had a sixty six foot chain on his surveying poles,

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Speaker 2: and so he said, well, I'll just use that as

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Speaker 2: the basic measurement for the widest streets. Sixty six feet

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Speaker 2: is what it's going to be.

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Speaker 3: I think he said, five hundred acre parcels. Weren't they

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Speaker 3: five acre?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, I'm sorry, this is a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a difference. They were five acre parcels. So that's even

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Speaker 2: more work. That's one hundred times more work than what

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Speaker 2: I described.

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Speaker 3: That's right. So he laid him out as a grid

357
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Speaker 3: because he wasn't like this guy wasn't out to say

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Speaker 3: here's how Manhattan should be built.

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Speaker 2: Right right, this is the best way to promote the

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Speaker 2: future of growth in Manhattan.

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Speaker 3: No, that was not his charge. His charge was like, hey,

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Speaker 3: let's just to buy this stuff up and sell it.

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Speaker 3: He had some interesting constraints. They had to be five acres,

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Speaker 3: they had to have a central road that all of

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Speaker 3: these could could sort of access like fairly easily. And

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Speaker 3: then he had a survey chain. It's crazy to think about.

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Speaker 3: This was one of the things that informed what is

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Speaker 3: modern New York. His survey chain was sixty six feet.

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Speaker 3: So he said, all right, that's how wide the road is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So I think that was like the widest road,

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Speaker 2: the central access road. He called that one Middle and

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Speaker 2: now I believe that's Fifth Avenue is Middle what was

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Speaker 2: originally Middle Road back in seventeen ninety six.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's adorable.

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Speaker 2: So he carved this up, this place up into these

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Speaker 2: plots that are two hundred feet on the east and

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Speaker 2: west boundaries of it. So going up and down, running

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Speaker 2: north south. But if you're on the plot, it would

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Speaker 2: be on the east side of the plot, in the

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Speaker 2: west side of the plot. If that was not confusing

381
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Speaker 2: before it is now. Yeah, and then across as the

382
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,199
Speaker 2: width was nine hundred and twenty feet and that was

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Speaker 2: the Those were the plots. He said, here you go,

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Speaker 2: this is a there's a bunch of them up there.

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Speaker 2: But I've carved up all of these common lands and

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Speaker 2: you can start selling them if you want. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Did you mention the names of the other two roads?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, he said, I'm gonna I'm gonna put two

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Speaker 2: more in of these sixty six feet wide roads. And uh,

390
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Speaker 2: he had some very clever names for them. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: One was middle, remember yeah. The one to the east

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Speaker 3: he named East, and the one to the west he

393
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Speaker 3: named west.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which which makes sense if you're looking at it

395
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Speaker 2: from if you're on the Middle road to the east

396
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Speaker 2: is the East road to the west of the West road.

397
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Speaker 2: But they run north south right, man, I hate directions. Uh.

398
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Speaker 3: And like you said that, it was fifth in the center,

399
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 3: so that's now fourth, fifth, and sixth a.

400
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Speaker 2: Right or fourth avenue, fifth avenue.

401
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Speaker 3: And the avenue you know you really not supposed to

402
00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:59,679
Speaker 3: say that. What a jerk. I can't believe I said that.

403
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Speaker 2: You didn't say it like that, and you just made

404
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 2: sure that you waited until the crowd had gathered and

405
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Speaker 2: really laid into me.

406
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Speaker 3: I think I remember it was that our first trip

407
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Speaker 3: to New York. Probably, yeah, probably, that's funny. We've been

408
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Speaker 3: back a couple of times since then as a team. Huh.

409
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. I've got some really great memories of

410
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Speaker 2: New York.

411
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Speaker 3: I miss it.

412
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been a while.

413
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Speaker 3: Twenty twenty one. We will see you again, Yes, we

414
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Speaker 3: will New York. Don't you work at least I hope.

415
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 3: So there are no guarantees, right.

416
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Speaker 2: No, we will see New York again.

417
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Speaker 3: All right, So do we take another break? I feel

418
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Speaker 3: like you're still a lot.

419
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 2: There's still a lot. We should keep going for now,

420
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Speaker 2: I think.

421
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,159
Speaker 3: All right. So in eighteen oh seven, this is when

422
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,719
Speaker 3: the New York State legislature said, you know what we

423
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,880
Speaker 3: need to like, we're growing here. It's clear that this

424
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 3: southern tip of Manhattan is just the beginning. So they

425
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Speaker 3: passed a bill that they described as an Act of Relative,

426
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 3: an act relative to improvements touching the laying out of

427
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Speaker 3: the streets and roads in the City of New York

428
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 3: and for other purposes.

429
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Speaker 2: Right, which made sense. But like I said, this law

430
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 2: they decided to just vest absolute authority into these three

431
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,400
Speaker 2: commissioners and said, we're going to follow whatever they come

432
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Speaker 2: up with, whatever they seems to them most conducive to

433
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Speaker 2: public good. We're just going to take on its face

434
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Speaker 2: that it is most conducive to public good and just

435
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 2: go with it.

436
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Speaker 3: That's crazy that it was just three people, and that

437
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 3: it wasn't like ten teams of three people submitting the

438
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 3: best designs that then would be gone over and voted on.

439
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, took this, No one took it seriously weirdly enough.

440
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 3: So who were these guys?

441
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 2: So there are three commissioners appointed. One was Governor Morris.

442
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 2: His first name was Governor. He was one of the

443
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 2: founding fathers. He wrote a lot of the Constitution, including

444
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 2: the preamble. Yeah, he had a peg leg. He lost

445
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 2: his leg in a carriage accident, although there's rumors that

446
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 2: it was something else. But he was known as a dave.

447
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 2: It's an energetic philanderer. But he was apparently a very

448
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 2: likable Benjamin Franklin esque kind of dude. Who seemed to

449
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 2: be fairly smart but had really no understanding of surveying

450
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 2: as far as I can tell. No.

451
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 3: Then his nephew in law, John Rutherford. He was a

452
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 3: landowner in New Jersey, in fact, I think the largest

453
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,479
Speaker 3: landowner in New Jersey at the time, and by all

454
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 3: accounts it looks like this was pure nepotism. He was

455
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 3: late for meetings, he was not especially interested, even to

456
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 3: the annoyance of Governor Morris.

457
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 2: All the reasons to not exercise nepotism this guy brought

458
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 2: to the table is one third of this commission who's

459
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 2: figuring out how to lay out the plan for New

460
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 2: York City.

461
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 3: That's right. And then the third guy, Simon Lebon No, no, no,

462
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 3: Simeon de Witt, excuse me. And this guy actually knew

463
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 3: what he was doing. He was a really very respected,

464
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 3: accomplished surveyor, worked with George Washington, I think eventually became

465
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 3: the which I didn't even know was a thing, was

466
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 3: the official surveyor for the Continental Army and then the

467
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 3: surveyor general of New York State.

468
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 2: Right, so he knew what he was doing, which makes

469
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 2: his role all the more shameful that he didn't say like, oh, well,

470
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 2: we really gotta we got to get cracking. It's been

471
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: three years and we've got four years to do.

472
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 3: Maybe he did, though who knows, he might have been

473
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 3: completely run over by these other two jumps.

474
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 2: Oh and he just got shouted down.

475
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 3: I guess I don't know.

476
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 2: Well, at the very least. Governor Morris was also one

477
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 2: of the founding members of the commission that created the

478
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,360
Speaker 2: Erie Canal, which was for a very long time considered

479
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 2: one of the greatest public works projects in the history

480
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 2: of America, certainly in the history of New York State.

481
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 2: And that kind of energy and imagination and drive just

482
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: did not make it to this eighteen eleven Commission for

483
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 2: the Planning of New York.

484
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 3: I wonder if he I mean this sounds cynical, but

485
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 3: I wonder if he literally was like, man, that Erie

486
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 3: Canal project really was a big bummer, and how hard

487
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 3: we had to work, and let's just kind of, hey,

488
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 3: look at these maps that this guy drew to sell

489
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 3: off New York. Let's just use those.

490
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. So that's I mean, that's kind of what they did.

491
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 2: Like they had four years or they took four years,

492
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 2: I'm not sure how long they had, but They took

493
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 2: four years from eighteen oh seven to eighteen eleven to

494
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 2: turn in their report. Four years of meeting sporadically true,

495
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 2: but they still met. Over this four year period. They

496
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 2: came up within eleven page report to lay out these

497
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: thirteen miles in length, not even square miles of Manhattan,

498
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,640
Speaker 2: these common lands, all the way from House and Street

499
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 2: up to North Harlem. They came up with eleven pages

500
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 2: to explain their map, and their map really made sense

501
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 2: as a grid. But again they stole the grid from

502
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 2: Kashmir Gork. I can't remember what I called them before, Girk.

503
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 2: I'm going with Gork now, okay, sure, but they didn't

504
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 2: give him any credit for it whatsoever.

505
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 3: No, I mean, I don't want to go so far

506
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,479
Speaker 3: as to call it a tracing project. But you know,

507
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 3: they borrowed pretty heavily. Like the streets and the avenues

508
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 3: were basically the exact same. When you know earlier you

509
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,679
Speaker 3: mentioned the blocks were two hundred by nine hundred and twenty.

510
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 2: Feet in from Girk from Kirk, right.

511
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, this had the exact same way out and that

512
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 3: was no accident.

513
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: No, And they were in virtually the same spot. They

514
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: did do some stuff, you know, they didn't just take

515
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 2: his his map, like you're saying, and trace it and

516
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 2: call it their own. They made some changes to it.

517
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 2: They created instead of the three middle, east, and West,

518
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 2: they created twelve avenues running north south and not true

519
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: north south, but just you know, for our purposes north

520
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 2: and south. And then they created one hundred and fifty

521
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 2: five numbered streets.

522
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 3: What they added this stuff, but it's sort of just

523
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 3: copy past kind of.

524
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 2: But the big thing is so adding the twelve numbered

525
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 2: avenues was definite change to the girks. Gorks never gonna

526
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 2: say the same thing twice.

527
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 3: But was it?

528
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, because he only had the three.

529
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 3: I know, but he just had the three, and they

530
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 3: were like, well, we need more, so let's just do

531
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 3: what he did all over the place.

532
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 2: Sure, sure, okay, all right, yeah, you know what I'm saying,

533
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 2: that's fair. Yeah, I'm there. These guys are definitely not

534
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 2: a hill I'm willing to die on, So say what

535
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 2: you will about I think they're lazy schmos too, all right.

536
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 2: And then they took these they took these cross streets

537
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 2: that are formed by the surveying of these blocks and

538
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 2: turn them into numbered streets. So avenues running north south

539
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 2: they were the big ones, one hundred and fifty five

540
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 2: numbered streets running east to west. They they widened the avenues.

541
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 2: They said they're going to be one hundred feet. Why.

542
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 2: I guess they had a longer survey in the chain, right,

543
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: And then they widened some of the cross streets, I

544
00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: guess ease congestion. I think they widened fifty keen of

545
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 2: them total.

546
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, they I think the other streets were sixty feet,

547
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 3: and then fifteen of them went to one hundred at fourteenth,

548
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 3: twenty third, thirty fourth, forty second, fifty seven to seventy two,

549
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 3: seventy nine, eighty six, ninety six, one o six, one sixteen,

550
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 3: one twenty fifth, one thirty fifth, one forty fifth, and

551
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 3: one fifty fifth. Right, But why why those particular.

552
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: Ones there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason

553
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 2: because if you notice, they didn't really hit their stride

554
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 2: into keeping them separated by ten ten cross streets until

555
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 2: eighty sixth Street. Yeah, so there's not really much rhyme

556
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: or reason there.

557
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 3: When they only did that for three of them, right,

558
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 3: for any of them?

559
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 2: And then the the the streets that they did choose

560
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: to widen didn't necessarily make much sense one way or

561
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 2: the other. Like, for example, seventy first Street was already

562
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 2: fairly wide, It was definitely wider than seventy second Street,

563
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 2: but they decided to make seventy second Street the widened

564
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: the widen cross street, rather than seventy first, and apparently

565
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 2: no one knows why. The closest thing I could find

566
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 2: is there's some record in eighteen fifty seven of somebody

567
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: having to remove a big rock from seventy second Street

568
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 2: to widen it, But that doesn't even explain it. It makes

569
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: sense because there was a bunch of houses that had

570
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 2: to be torn down to make seventy second Street widened,

571
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 2: rather than seventy first, which was already.

572
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 3: Wide and had almost no houses exactly.

573
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 2: So these guys were just when you start to compile

574
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 2: all the evidence, we'll kind of pay more out. It

575
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: really seems like these guys didn't even go to the

576
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 2: common Lands, that maybe they were just working from Girk's map,

577
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 2: or if they did go to the common Lands, they

578
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 2: took zero notes or paid zero attention, and that all

579
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 2: of this came from a place of laziness and ignorance,

580
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 2: like not knowing that seventy second was wider than seventy

581
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 2: first or vice versa, would explain that decision more than

582
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 2: anything else.

583
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 3: Yeah. The other another example is if you've ever been

584
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 3: on the West side and you feel like, man, these

585
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 3: avenues are big, it's because they are. The avenues on

586
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 3: the east side are spaced at six hundred and fifty

587
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 3: and six hundred and ten feet apart or six hundred

588
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 3: and ten feet apart, and on the west they are

589
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 3: all eight hundred feet apart for no reason.

590
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 2: No reason at all. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. Again,

591
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 2: it just it seems like they just phone this in.

592
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: And what's even more astounding is that New York's founding

593
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: father said, Okay, we're going to do exactly what you

594
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 2: say without questioning it.

595
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, and actually we kind of do have the reason

596
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 3: if you read closely, and we'll tell you the secret

597
00:31:42,560 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 3: reason right after this zephyr a cliffhanger.

598
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 2: It was great. I'm still a little tense waiting for

599
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 2: you to pay it all.

600
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 3: All right, here's the real reason, everyone, and it all

601
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 3: lies in this quote that is pulled from their commission report.

602
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 3: If it should be asked, why was the present plan

603
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 3: adopted in preference to any other The answer is because

604
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 3: after taking all circumstances into consideration, it appeared to be

605
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 3: the best or, in other more proper terms, attended with

606
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 3: the least inconvenience.

607
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: And I think that's the magic phrase right there.

608
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 3: That last phrase attended with the least inconvenience. And Dave

609
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 3: rightfully says, what is obvious, which is inconvenient for the

610
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 3: three commissioners.

611
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, because their plan was extraordinarily inconvenient for basically everyone involved.

612
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 2: Like there was from the people who were in charge

613
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 2: of like making this this like building this grid or

614
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 2: this plan, to the people who were already living in

615
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 2: places that were torn down. Yeah, forty percent of places

616
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 2: were torn down to adhere to this plan, this eighteen

617
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 2: eleven commission plan. Yeah, that's crazy. And again, when you

618
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 2: start to add all this stuff up, it does seem

619
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 2: like the least inconvenient for the three commissioners.

620
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

621
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 2: And the fact that if that is true and they

622
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 2: just included that is kind of like a cheeky little joke.

623
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 2: You know, these guys are they're not necessarily burning in hell,

624
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 2: but they're probably in purgatory somewhere.

625
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 3: I also have a lot of respect for that kind

626
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 3: of laziness at times, So the.

627
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 2: Kind that makes fun of itself in public documents.

628
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 3: Well, just is that upfront about the fact, like, you

629
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 3: know what, I didn't really want to work too hard

630
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 3: on this, so here's here it is, right. So yeah,

631
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 3: it was very and can it for everyone? Button them?

632
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 3: They did this because of the growth population they expected,

633
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,879
Speaker 3: so it sort of made sense. But they even got

634
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 3: that wrong. They were wrong by about half of what

635
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 3: they thought the growth rate was going to be.

636
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing is they were saying, like, okay,

637
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 2: is this affords enough population growth to afford a population

638
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,399
Speaker 2: greater than any other this side of China, is how

639
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 2: they put it. So they clearly did have at least

640
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 2: growth on their mind, and that if you build on

641
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: a grid, it affords for the most growth. It's the

642
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 2: easiest to build on. Right angled structures are the easiest

643
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 2: to build and settle and live in. But the thing

644
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: is is part of that law, that eighteen oh seven

645
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 2: law that established the commission charged them with creating public squares.

646
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 2: Although it said in size and form and all that

647
00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 2: in number that the Commissioners see fit. Unfortunately, the Commissioners

648
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: didn't see fit to make almost any kind of public

649
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 2: gathering places, especially green spaces for mental health, I guess

650
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:11,879
Speaker 2: is what you would call it.

651
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and their reasoning is kind of kind of bs. Actually,

652
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 3: I'm not sure which one it was. I guess it

653
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 3: was Morris that I'm not going to read the whole quote,

654
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 3: but he basically said, hey, listen, we don't have the

655
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 3: Sinn River or the Thames winding through the middle of town,

656
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 3: but what we do have are these two wonderful rivers

657
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 3: that just kind of hug Manhattan. And that's enough because

658
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 3: everyone's just going to go hang out the river all

659
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 3: the time, right, because it's beautiful and gorgeous and you

660
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 3: can swim in it. And the East River and the

661
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 3: Hudson River will forever be our green space.

662
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 2: Basically, Yeah, Basically that was the city had enough. It

663
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 2: didn't need green spaces because of the East and the

664
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 2: Hudson rivers, and like in about forty years people were like, no,

665
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 2: we need to build Central Park.

666
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, which was a savior because I think it says

667
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 3: here on their original plan only five percent of the

668
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 3: grid was public green space and two hundred and forty

669
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 3: of those four hundred acres was a parade ground.

670
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 2: Yes, which I didn't know exactly where that was, do

671
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 2: you No.

672
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 3: I'm not sure. I don't know. I mean, you know,

673
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 3: there's Washington Square Park, there's some cool kind of central

674
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 3: promenades and things like that, and then these you know,

675
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 3: New York's is famous for these tiny little slivers of

676
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 3: park kind of all over the place. But they're small.

677
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 2: They are very small, especially compared to the surrounding areas

678
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 2: for sure in the buildings.

679
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 3: That's why the highline was such a big deal.

680
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a big deal. And I remember not

681
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 2: quite grasping why. I know, I definitely do, because there's

682
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 2: just people need that. People need green space, they need nature,

683
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 2: they need to be like outside of a built environment,

684
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 2: even if it's a built natural environment, you know what

685
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 2: I mean.

686
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Central Park is amazing and we love it,

687
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 3: but that's a long way if you're in southern Manhattan

688
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:08,399
Speaker 3: to get up.

689
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,919
Speaker 2: There, right right. But basically, these guys said, you don't

690
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 2: need it, go hang out at the Hudson er of

691
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 2: the East River.

692
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 3: It's so wonderful and lovely.

693
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 2: So there were a lot of people, like we said,

694
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 2: that were really unhappy with this. This was a huge

695
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,760
Speaker 2: exercise of eminent domain. There were a lot of people

696
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 2: on these lands already. Remember Seneca Village that was destroyed

697
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: to create Central Park. They managed to survive the eighteen

698
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 2: eleven commission. I can't remember how long that was around,

699
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 2: but I want to say Seneca Village is around for

700
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 2: a good fifty years before it was leveled in the

701
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 2: eighteen fifties, so it would have been around on the

702
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,879
Speaker 2: common lands during this time. But there were, like you said,

703
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 2: about thirty nine or forty percent of homeowners or established

704
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 2: buildings had to be torn down. They filled in ponds,

705
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 2: they filled in salt marshes, They completely altered the ecosystem

706
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 2: of stuff that could have been built around or incorporated

707
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 2: had they stopped and thought about how to do that.

708
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 2: They just leveled everything and built a grid over it.

709
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 2: And so a lot of people were really really unhappy

710
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 2: about us, and they were particularly unhappy that the city

711
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 2: administration was just sticking to this no matter what. And

712
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:27,879
Speaker 2: there were a lot of lawsuits in all of them,

713
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 2: from what I understand, were unsuccessful.

714
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, for about sixty years, there were tons of

715
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 3: lawsuits going on. And I know you said it was

716
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 3: a big eminent domain Act, but it was I think

717
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 3: still the largest active eminent domain in New York City. Yeah,

718
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 3: and that includes Central Park and the how they get

719
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 3: their water, which was another good episode.

720
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I mean Central Park was huge, but it's

721
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 2: just a small sliver of this larger area.

722
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 3: Yeah. This one quote from landowner Clement Clark More. He

723
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 3: published a pamphlet about the Tyrannical Commissioner's plan, and it

724
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 3: says this nothing is to be left unmolested, which does

725
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 3: not coincide with the street Commissioner's plummet and level. These

726
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 3: are men who would have cut down the seven Hills

727
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 3: of Rome Burn big time.

728
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 2: Yep.

729
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 3: So it didn't matter.

730
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: Though, No, it really didn't matter. They just went ahead

731
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 2: with it blindly and thoughtlessly and did and again like

732
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 2: it did accommodate growth, although they underestimated the growth. But

733
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 2: it took a little while for this stuff to fill up.

734
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 2: This plan was delivered in eighteen eleven, but it wasn't

735
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 2: until eighteen seventy five that enough people had started to

736
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 2: move in that there were more New Yorkers living above

737
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 2: fourteenth Street than there were living below it. Because remember,

738
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 2: I mean Lower Manhattan was where it all began, so

739
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 2: that I mean it took a little while to fill in,

740
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 2: and it didn't even necessarily fill in uniform by that

741
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 2: same year, in eighteen seventy five, there's still forty thousand

742
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: vacant lots crazy left in this grid plan, and that

743
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 2: was like about half of the space.

744
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that fact. That's good. Dave has some

745
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 3: nice facts here at the end. Eighteen sixty nine, the

746
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 3: very first apartment building New York was built, called the

747
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 3: stuve is Ant, and they called them I don't even

748
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 3: think they called them apartments at the time. It was

749
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 3: called a French flat or a French house. But prior

750
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,720
Speaker 3: to that it was you know, tenement houses and houses.

751
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 3: And so the stuve is Ant is built, and everyone

752
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 3: thinks it's silly that anyone would want to live in

753
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 3: the same building as other people, and they called it

754
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 3: stuve is Ant's folly, but that it was at one

755
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 3: hundred and forty two East eighteenth between Irving Place and

756
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 3: Third and it was it was a huge hit, like

757
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 3: people made fun of it in the newspapers, but people

758
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 3: signed up to live there almost immediately. It filled up.

759
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 3: It was demoed and replaced in nineteen sixty But so

760
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,359
Speaker 3: this is eighteen sixty nine, very It didn't take long though.

761
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 3: In eighteen eighty four the Dakota was built, which still

762
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 3: stands today. So apartment buildings kind of came into fashion.

763
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 3: I think, probably do just Stivesant's folly.

764
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 2: Yeah I will. Yeah, I mean it went over so

765
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 2: well and so quickly that it really opened the way

766
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 2: for more and more to be built.

767
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 3: Pretty cool.

768
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 2: So one thing that people point to is this Commissioner's

769
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 2: Plan of eighteen eleven is just like that same principle

770
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 2: or the same significance that the Spanish coming in and

771
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 2: imposing a grid over an indigenous settlement was somehow taming

772
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 2: the wild or the organic or something like that. There's

773
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 2: this is the turning point between kind of unplanned, organic,

774
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 2: much more harmonious, naturally new New York and the planned

775
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 2: modern New York that we know and love today. This

776
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 2: is where it went from one to the other, almost

777
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 2: like flipping a switch. And granted, for it took decades

778
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 2: and decades to realize this plan, but when it when

779
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 2: it was delivered and when it was adopted, that was

780
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 2: that was it that that change happened and the transition began.

781
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty amazing, I think so too. What else

782
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,800
Speaker 3: is there for New York. I mean we figure, we

783
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 3: got water, we got the subways covered, we got Central Park,

784
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 3: We've got this.

785
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, let's see.

786
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 3: There can't be much else as far as just the

787
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 3: bones of Oh. I know what I want to do

788
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,959
Speaker 3: is maybe how that how the mail and the trash work?

789
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 2: Okay? All right, yeah, we did the rockets once even too.

790
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 3: Oh that's right.

791
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 2: I mean we've done a lot of New York topics,

792
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 2: that's true.

793
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 3: Or maybe we should have moved to a different city.

794
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:58,760
Speaker 3: Let's start talking about des Moines.

795
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 2: Holy cow, dude, it almost simultaneously came out of my mouth.

796
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 3: Des Moines. Yes, it's so weird.

797
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 2: It is weird. It's in the zeitgeist. Apparently you got

798
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:13,439
Speaker 2: anything else.

799
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 3: I got nothing else.

800
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, if you want to know more about New York,

801
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 2: to start reading and then eventually travel there. They'll give

802
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 2: you the all clear when they're ready. And since I

803
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 2: said that, it's time for listener mail.

804
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 3: Hey guys, my sixteen year old son Owen is probs

805
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 3: your biggest fan for real. He also has narcolepsy. I

806
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 3: appreciate you taking on this topic and bringing some understanding

807
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 3: of it to the masses. He was diagnosing in his

808
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,359
Speaker 3: ten and it affects every single aspect of his life.

809
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 3: I think it has made him wise beyond his years

810
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 3: personally and compassionate to other people with invisible struggles. But

811
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 3: it still sucks. If you ever want to read or

812
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,720
Speaker 3: hear firsthand accounts from people with narcolepsy, check out Julie

813
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 3: Flygare That is f l y g a R or

814
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 3: flygare A. I'm not sure how would you say that?

815
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 2: Oh? I like the one with flavor of the second.

816
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 3: One who is doing all kinds of advocacy for people

817
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 3: with narcolepsy, including a scholarship foundation. She founded Projects Sleep

818
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 3: and Voices of Narcolepsy. She also read a great book

819
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,919
Speaker 3: about her experiences with being diagnosed during law school called

820
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 3: Wide Awake and Dreaming. When Owen received his diagnosis, I

821
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 3: reached out to her for help. She sent own a

822
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 3: care package with a book, a T shirt, wristbands, a

823
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 3: very kind card, etc. To let him know that he's

824
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,919
Speaker 3: not alone. That is very sweet, it is I think

825
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 3: she deserves an award for the work she's doing. Anyway,

826
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 3: A great resource for sure. Thanks for the work that

827
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,280
Speaker 3: you do. I mean, could we get an award.

828
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 2: You know we've won a Webby before. I think, well

829
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 2: that's true.

830
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,439
Speaker 3: Yeah. Sometimes it's fun and entertaining, but sometimes and often

831
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 3: it's really important and educational as well. Sincerely, the mom

832
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:58,800
Speaker 3: of your biggest fan. And that is from Brooke.

833
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 2: Thanks bro and thanks Owen for listening. It's really good

834
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 2: to hear from you, guys. And I feel like we

835
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 2: should send Owen something too. Sure, let's do it, Chuck,

836
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 2: we'll figure it out, all right. We can't be shown

837
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: up by this Flygawari person.

838
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 3: No, no, no, send us, send us your physical address

839
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:16,879
Speaker 3: and we'll mail you.

840
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 2: Something that's right. And in the meantime, thanks for listening,

841
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,280
Speaker 2: and thanks for being a fan. And thank you for listening,

842
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 2: and thank you for being a fan too. And if

843
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 2: you want to get in touch with us, like Brook did,

844
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 2: you can send us an email, wrap it up, spanking

845
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 2: on the bottom and send it off to Stuff Podcasts

846
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 2: at iHeartRadio dot com.

847
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of Iheartradios How

848
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,359
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849
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,080
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