1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: I'm Will Lucas and this is black tag green money. 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Marcus Collins is the head of Strategy at White and 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: Kennedy New York and is also a clinical marketing professor 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: at the Raw School of Business University in Michigan. He's 5 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: been recognized for his strategic and creative contributions with accolades 6 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: such as the American Advertising Federations Advertising Hall of Fame, 7 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: Achievement at Ages forty under forty recipient and Createing his 8 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: business forty under forty recipient. Additionally, it's law successful campaign 9 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: of major brands such a State Farm, Google and the 10 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: mayor An American Music Festival. He also previously led iTunes 11 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 1: and Nike Sport Music and Initiatives at Apple, and ran 12 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: digital strategy for Beyonce A. His upcoming book for the 13 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: culture hit Shells on May third, and We often throw 14 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: the word culture around loosely, and as a marketer and 15 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: brand strategist, Marcus defines for us what it actually means. 16 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: I think about culture through the lens of a chairman 17 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: by the name of a middle Dirk time on the 18 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: Bounding Foy sociology, he said, the culture is a system 19 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: of symbols, values, and norms that demarket who people are 20 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: and what people like them do. And it's through these 21 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: systems and norms that we translate the world that we 22 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: identify what's expected of us and what we should be 23 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: anticipating from people like us. And we've been having this 24 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: conversation on this podcast about you know, black people leading 25 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: all global culture. I would like to get your take 26 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: on this. So if you think about music, if you 27 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: think about sports, think about food, think about dance. You know, 28 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: there's this conversation about black people leading in all of 29 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: these verticals. I would like to get your take on 30 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: digging deeper on that. What does that mean? Yeah, So 31 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: I think about when we say that, and I agree 32 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: with that, is that when we talk about black people 33 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: leading culture, what we mean is the black cultural production 34 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: becomes the work that people use to express who they are. Right, So, 35 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: think about this system that real Durkheim refers to. There's 36 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: the our identity who we subscribe to be. There are 37 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: the beliefs and ideologies that govern how we see the world. 38 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: Right there are the truths that we hold the world, 39 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: the stories that we tell ourselves about the world. And 40 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: because we see the world a certain way, we don 41 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,079 Speaker 1: a certain apparel, we'd dress a certain way with certain artifacts, 42 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: we behave a certain way, and we talk a certain way. 43 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: And because of who we are, how we see the 44 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: world and how we show up in the world, we 45 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: consume certain product i e. The movies we watch, the 46 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: music we listen to, the television shows that we watch, 47 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: the literature we take in, the dance that we take in, 48 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: the brands of branding products that we consume. And what 49 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: happens is that black culture, like the predominant black culture, 50 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: the production of predominant Black culture, becomes this gravitational pull 51 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: that people want to use to communicate who they are 52 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: because of what it signals about the world. And truly, 53 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: like all marginalized communities really have this this ability to 54 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: take make something out of nothing, right, and we see 55 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: marginalized communities become sort of the they become the victim 56 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: of cultural appropriation for that very reason. And let's dig 57 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,399 Speaker 1: in there. You know, what is a good way then 58 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: to imbue and bed culture into a brand. So I 59 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: would argue that the best brands are contributors to culture. 60 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: They lead culture by contributing to it. That is, they 61 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: contribute to the beliefs the artifacts, the behaviors in the 62 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: language that make up the group of people. My friend 63 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: hulkrans is it this way. You can either lead culture 64 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: by like driving it. You could sit in front seat 65 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:46,119 Speaker 1: by sort of riding along with it, or you could 66 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: suck tailpipe by trying to copy it. Right, And brands 67 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: that lead culture are more successful than those who follow 68 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: and those who kind of ride shotgun just sort of 69 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: benefits from the afterglow of it. But it's really the 70 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: brand that lead culture. They contribute to these characteristics of 71 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: the system that are most successful. You think about brands 72 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: like Nike. They've brought language to our normal vernacular, like 73 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: just do it. That's a tagline that came from the 74 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: agency I work for, Why and Kennedy that people use 75 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: to communicate who they are in the world and how 76 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: they operate in the world. Brands like Patagonia right because 77 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 1: of what they believe people use those brands to signal 78 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: their identity. That is, these brand marks in their communications 79 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: become extensions or receipts of people's identity. The brands become 80 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: cultural products. Not just a jacket, not just a phone, 81 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: not just a car, not just glasses. They are ways 82 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: by which I communicate who I am to the world, 83 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: and those brands win often. Yeah, I'd like you to 84 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: talk more about that, because I think you have one 85 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: conversation about how there's this bottom up effect of how 86 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: you know, people's whether they be black people, other minority 87 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: or marginalized groups that you talked about, who create culture 88 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:02,679 Speaker 1: and then they get taking advantage of by companies, brands 89 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: in et cetera. And then what you just talked about 90 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: with how brands might contribute to culture and is there 91 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: a conversation around where people don't want to be sold, 92 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: but they want to take the maybe the dapper Dan 93 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: approach and take what's already out and flip it, you know. 94 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: But how but when it comes from a brand, in 95 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: so many cases it's you know, you're trying to you know, 96 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: you're trying to pacify me, or you're trying to take 97 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: advantage of what we're already doing in the street or etc. 98 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,239 Speaker 1: You get my point. I get your point for sure. 99 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: I think the idea for brands is that we contribute 100 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: to culture by facilitating community, that instead of sort of 101 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: it being all about us, is that we identify what 102 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: are the pain points, the points of friction, what are 103 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: the ambitions and desires of the group of people that 104 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: were trying to activate, and how do we use our resources, 105 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: our our platforms to help people realize that they're going 106 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 1: after based on what we know of their beliefs, artifacts, behaviors, 107 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: and language. So a dapper Dan thing is you're taking 108 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: someone or you are co creating cultural production with someone 109 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: who's from the community, who knows the community and their 110 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: cultural characteristics with far greater intimacy than their brand does, 111 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: and you're giving your resources over to saying, hey create, 112 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: do what you do, and do it without sort of 113 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: the without without the policing that Dapper Dan wants experienced 114 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: back in the eighties, right giving you freedom and do 115 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: what you do with our marks, and that reworking of that, 116 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: that reworking of raw material from the brand helps create 117 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: the cultural product that's representative of Dapper Dan. I mean 118 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: that's hip hop too. Right before before artists were being 119 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: sued for using samples that they weren't giving access to. 120 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: When labels started saying, hey, take the content and actually 121 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: rework it like they are, they are being they're they're 122 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: they're being propelled to realize the cultural product, and that's 123 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: representative of people like themselves, and brands who understand this, 124 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: those brands actually do far better than those who don't. Yeah, 125 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: before we go much further, I do want to get 126 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: your take on defining brand versus marks and logos and etc. 127 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: And so, because because this does get confused in our 128 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: social conversations about you know, you ask somebody what is 129 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: the brand? They show you their logo, and they show 130 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: you their letter ahead and they show you these things. 131 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: And I would like you to have for folks who 132 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: don't live this every day, talk about the differences and 133 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: what confuses people about those things. Then you're hitting it 134 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: right on the head. Brand branded brands is at a 135 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: long history. Like brand, start off as a mark of ownership. 136 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: In fact, if you translate the word brand into any 137 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: Romantic or Germanic language, it translates into mark or marka 138 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: or market. It's a mark right and back in the day, 139 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: you know, if you really if you were raising cattle 140 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: and you brought your cattle to the market, you would 141 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: brand it with the branding iron as a way of 142 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: saying this cattle belongs to me. So it would be 143 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: confused with the Lucases cattle. It's Colin's cattle. But over 144 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: time brand began to evolve from being this mark of 145 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: ownership to being a mark of legality that not only 146 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: do I own this, but I have legal representation over 147 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: this theme. Then about a century and a half later, 148 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: it became well, it's not enough for this for us 149 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: to own it and have legal ramifications over it. We 150 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: also want people to see it and trust us. So 151 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: that logo, the mark became a trust mark. But then 152 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: over time it wasn't enough people just to trust the brand, 153 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: want people to love the brand. So mark became this 154 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: mark of ownership, became this signifier that conjured up thoughts 155 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: and feelings. And that's really what brands are at its core. 156 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:53,119 Speaker 1: They're identifiable signifiers that conjure up thoughts and feelings, cognitions, 157 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: and affects on behalf of companies, institutions, products, people, and organizations. 158 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: The marks of ownership and sometimes those marks are literal logos, 159 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: sometimes they're audio marks. Sometimes they're aesthetic like you know 160 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: an apple aesthetic you know who that belongs to? Right, 161 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: These marks are identifiable, and they're also they conjure upt 162 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: these thoughts and feelings and make us feel a certain thing. 163 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: They emote a certain thing and therefore were more inclients 164 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: and only remember it to differentiate it, feel something by it, 165 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: and therefore pay a premium for it. Yeah, you make 166 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: me think about the importance of us investing in I 167 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: mean when I say us, I mean black owned companies, 168 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: minority owned companies, women owned companies, the importance of investing 169 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: in a brand guide as early as possible when you 170 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: start a business, because that brand guide defines how we 171 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: use the mark, what colors we use it in, what 172 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: it can be sat on. Can I put my logo 173 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: on top of a picture that has a million colors 174 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 1: on it? Or does it have to have a black 175 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: or solid background behind it? Or this is the tone 176 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: of voice we use, or this is the language we 177 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: don't use, the type of imagery we use. So all 178 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: these things, can you? Yeah, So we want to make 179 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 1: sure that the mark is distinctive and that the mark 180 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: um has all of the significance that we wanted to 181 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: have right, so that it is consistent and as distinctive. 182 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: But it's not enough for it to look good aesthetically. 183 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: We have to also think about what does it mean 184 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: when people see the brand mark? What what's what's conjured 185 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: up and it's that ability to transcend sort of a 186 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: physical mark that allows us to transcend the business in 187 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: which we operate. For instance, if I told you that 188 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: Nike was starting a hotel, you probably know what that 189 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: thing looks like, Like, oh, I totally see the work 190 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: of it is, I know what the experience is going 191 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: to be. But if I told you the West End 192 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: start we're gonna make sneakers, you have no clue what 193 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: that means. That Like even I can't even see that 194 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: my mind, because the West End means hotels. Nike means 195 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: every human body is an athlete. Nike transcends the category 196 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: in which they reside, and they operate at an ideological 197 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: driven as an operator an ideological driven vehicle. And therefore 198 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: the brand is more than just the mark. It's the 199 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: meaning that's embedded in it. And that's not just brands 200 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: like Nike. I mean I used to work for for Beyonce. 201 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:22,959 Speaker 1: Beyonce is the same way, Like we've known that Beyonce 202 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: believes in or just stood for women's empowerment since the 203 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,559 Speaker 1: days of no No, No, No No to bills to 204 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: the left to you ain't gonna break my soul, like 205 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: Beyonce has stood for that thing. And so while we 206 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: know Beyonce as an artist and in all the many 207 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: ways that she is artistic, the meaning of Beyonce transcends 208 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: those things. So as we pay mind to the mark 209 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: of ownership, as you mentioned, make sure that our brand 210 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: guidelines are strong, the language is strong, that it's consistent. 211 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: We have to also make sure that it's the meaning 212 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: that is going to conjure up the thoughts and feelings 213 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: that we want people to walk away with, because it's 214 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: the meaning that's going to inform how people behave in 215 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: the long run. What do you think about when people 216 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: say or ask what is your brand? Just in the general, 217 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: not you specifically, but when somebody's asked about what is 218 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: your brand? What do you think about? The first thing 219 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: I think about what people said, what is your brand? 220 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: My translation is that is what is your meaning? What 221 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: do you mean? What do you intend to mean? What 222 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: do you stand for? Right? If we talk about brand, 223 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: we use this vernacular all the time. We say the 224 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: brand stands for this. What we really mean is the 225 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: brand stands in for this. The brand mark stands in 226 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: for these cognitive and effective associations that we have. So 227 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: someone says what does your brand mean? Or what is 228 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: your brand? What is your brand? They're really asking what 229 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 1: does your brand mean? What does it mean? And what 230 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: are the products that you bring to market that are 231 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: demonstrative of that meaning? And truly, I mean like if 232 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: you go back to the original question you asked about, 233 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: but what does coach? Right? Culture is this system and 234 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: that system that we use that is a meaning making system. 235 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: It's through those cultural lenses that we translate the world 236 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: and make meaning. That's why for some a cowa's leather 237 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: but as a deity, and for some it's dinner, or 238 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: for some a rug is a place of worship, for 239 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: others it's decor for someplace it's a souvenir. Right, the 240 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: meanings aren't fixed, but they are translated through our cultural lenses. 241 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: So as brands, whether you are a Nike or you 242 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: are an Apple, or you are a startup, we're all 243 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: bound by the same ramifications of brand what does it mean? 244 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 1: And we bring our brands to market or branded products 245 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: to market, the products are bearing the meaning that the 246 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: brand is trying to signify. Yeah, that's really good. I 247 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: want to get your analysis on this because when I 248 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: was coming up in my career. I started in radio, 249 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: and back when I was doing radios, djam parties and 250 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: all these things, I would get asked often, Hey, can 251 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: you MCE this event? Can you host this event? Can 252 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: you come and speak, you know, on these different topics 253 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: about entertainment and et cetera. And then as I got older, 254 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: I was like, you know, I don't want to be 255 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: the guy who hosts or does the panel or m 256 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: sees this thing. I want to be known more for, 257 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: you know, my business and technology interests. And so what 258 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: I had to learn about to stop getting asked was 259 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: I had to stop participating in things that were not 260 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: aligned with what I wanted to be seen ass And 261 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: so when I get asked, even though it might have 262 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: been interesting, you got to say no because the more 263 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: I do that, the more it reinforces that that's who 264 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: I am. But the more I associate I always say 265 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: it this way, Like Oprah is Oprah because Tom Cruise 266 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: jumped on her sofa. Oprah is a star. That's that's 267 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: the way I say. Like Oprah is Oprah because she 268 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: who she associated herself with and who she was seen 269 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: next to. And so, can you provide an analysis to 270 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: how people can focus their brand based on mean, that's 271 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: my personal experience. But how can I focus my brand 272 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: so that a curate opportunities for myself in the ways 273 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: that I want to create opportunities? Well, that's what strategy 274 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: is meant for the job of strategy is about saying 275 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: no to things. Of all the main things that we 276 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: could do, what are we going to say no to 277 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: so that my intended meaning is aligned what people actually translate. 278 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: Because as you know me, you work at radio, you 279 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: know this, It's not what you say, it's what people here. Right, 280 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: So as I communicate the brand through explicit messages like 281 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: ads or implicitly through the brand's behavior, what I intend 282 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: to mean doesn't align what people actually see what they 283 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: actually translate, And that truly requires an understanding people and 284 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: then being able to say no to some things and 285 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: yes to some things. I mean, even you saying I'm 286 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: going to stop doing hosting and stop you know, djaying parties, 287 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: because I want to be I want to mean more 288 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: than just that that. I want to transcend those activities 289 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: to have a greater mental associations. I mean, Domino's Pizza 290 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: dropped pizza off of their name for a reason. It's 291 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: like we don't. We're run in a pizza business. Like, 292 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: that's just one thing we happen to do. Apple dropped 293 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: off computers from their title because they're run in a 294 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: computer business. We just happen to do those things. So 295 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: for brands who want to operate at a higher level, 296 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: it requires saying no to the things that may be 297 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: quick from a money perspective, and saying yes to the 298 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: things that are going to be the long game. And 299 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: that's an important part to note the difference between marketing 300 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: communications and brand or sales. And brand sales are short term, right, 301 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: so doing that gig quickly, get the bad quickly, great, awesome, right, 302 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: But in the long run it doesn't help you. But 303 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: if you say, I'm gonna saying note to this thing 304 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: right now so I can do this in the long run, 305 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: that's where brand comes in. That brand is a long 306 00:16:55,560 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: term mental association game which requires small interactions over a 307 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: period of time. So every time you said no to this, 308 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 1: said yes to that, you were building the edipus brick 309 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: by brick for the brand house that you wanted to 310 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: be known as. I mean, you're doing it dot. Oh yeah, 311 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 1: this is so interesting to me because you brought up Apple, 312 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: and it makes me think of my favorite quote from 313 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: Steve Jobs, which I've said millions of times on this podcast, 314 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: is Steve had this quote that said, you can't connect 315 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: the dots looking forward, you can only connect the dots 316 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: looking backward. And what I get from that is you 317 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: wonder why you can be doing, you know, a certain jobs, 318 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: wondering why you're in certain relationships, wondering why you're doing 319 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: certain things. And it may not make sense in the moment, 320 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: but then a month later, years later, decades later, you 321 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: find yourself in the predicament where you got to use 322 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: those skills or use those experience. Those experiences speak to 323 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 1: what you're currently involved in, and had you not gone 324 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: through those things, you wouldn't be able to maneuver through 325 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 1: what you're going through presently. And so my question there 326 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: is how do you how do you think about analyzing, 327 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: maybe not reinventing who you are, but evolving who you 328 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: are based on the experiences that you might have had. 329 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 1: Because to my previous point, yes I was a DJ, 330 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: and yes I hosted, and I didn't want to be 331 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: seen as that guy. But now I'm using those skills 332 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: to do afro tech by tech, green money. So so 333 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 1: I think it's not like those things. It was what 334 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: they were pointed at where different. Apple didn't stop doing computers, 335 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: Dominos didn't stop doing pizza, but it evolved and it 336 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: helped inform who they would become. That's right. So I 337 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 1: think it's driven by by this. The context always changes, 338 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 1: but the conviction stays the same. Right. I'm grounded and 339 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: rooted in a way of seeing the world, and when 340 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: I realized that the world around me changes and therefore 341 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: while by behavior changes, the north star doesn't. So, for instance, 342 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: I was an engineer. I studied engineering undergrad and then 343 00:18:57,880 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: I went to the music business, wrote love songs for 344 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: a love before going into marketing, communications, and then a 345 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: career in academia. If you look at that while I 346 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: was doing it, people like this guy must be crazy. 347 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: He can't stay he can't stay true to a thing. 348 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: But when I look back at it, it becomes very 349 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: very clear that I loved material science engineering because I 350 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: thought the polymers were cool. These are carbon chains that 351 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: are connecting that normally were disparate, now connected to create 352 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: new things. I love music because I love the idea 353 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,640 Speaker 1: that people could come together because of a shared love 354 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: of a lyric of an artist, of a beat like 355 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: we could be strangers. You go, dude, that reminds me 356 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: of nostalgia ultra. I'm like, dude, I love Frank Ocean 357 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 1: me too, Oh my god, best friends. Right. We become 358 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: connected because of our shared experience with an artist. The 359 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: same thing with good marketing communications that we get connected 360 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 1: to a brand because it is a receipt of our 361 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: identity and we share those identity connections. And for me 362 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: as as a professor now and as a marketer, like ultimately, 363 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: when I'm in the classroom, we're trying to connect these 364 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: students two ideas. I mean, that's why I wrote a 365 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: book to help scale that connectivity. I may have done 366 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: it in different ways, but ultimately, I've always been about 367 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: connecting things to create new, more augmented, more optimized outcomes. 368 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: And the manifestation changed over time, but at its core, 369 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: it's always been about connecting. A few years ago, Kanye West, 370 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 1: upon hearing the news that Lady Gaga was named Created 371 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: director at Polaroid, he asked, what the f does Lady 372 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: Gagata know about cameras. The question was rooted in the 373 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: belief that the relationship between Gaga and Polaroid wasn't authentic. 374 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 1: So how do brands avoid this full pie and successfully 375 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: associate themselves with culture? Markets speak? So I mean and 376 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: Kanye was spot on because in our minds, Kodak is 377 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: just pictures and cameras and film. Kodak doesn't exist. They 378 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: don't have any conviction, any ideology that governs Kodak in 379 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: our minds at least. So you take Lady Gaga, who's creative, 380 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 1: who's artistic, and then you have a camera brand, you go, 381 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 1: those teams don't don't, don't align. Where brands have opportunities 382 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,719 Speaker 1: to be a part of culture is where there's ideological congruence. 383 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: What the brand believes is also shared with what this 384 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: cultural outcome believes or whether it's people, whether this artist 385 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: sees the world send me the brand. Does those two 386 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: things come together. Where this culture is collective of people, 387 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: they share the same ideology as the brand, the brand 388 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: activates them accordingly. A great example of it is this 389 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: m McDonald's. Right, here's here's a brand who's hate on 390 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: for a long time, right, lots of Haydon McDonald's. And 391 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,360 Speaker 1: we met McDonald's. We said, well, why don't you guys 392 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: stop focus on people who hates you, folks, on people 393 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: who love you? Or who are those people? They're fans. 394 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: They're like fans of McDonald's ninety six million people showing 395 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: the McDonald's door every single day. Focus on those people, 396 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: but they don't know who they were. So we did 397 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: a research undertaking when we're to go learn about these fans. 398 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: We found that they were fan truths within each one 399 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: of them, within the collective of them. And one of 400 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: the biggest fan truths is that no matter how big 401 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: you are, everyone has an order. Oh that's cool. So 402 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,199 Speaker 1: now the brand activates people based on their order. So 403 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: what it McDonald's do. They partnered with Travis Scott. We 404 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: partnered with Traviscott on behalf of McDonald's to take Travis 405 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: Scott's order the Cactus Jack and make it available to everyone. Right, 406 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: McDonald's were able to contribute to culture because of what 407 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: it believes, what it stands for, and the truth around 408 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 1: its fans. And it gave McDonald's an authentic way to 409 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 1: contribute to culture without it feeling like super sleazy. And 410 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: what's the brand's beliefs and the network beliefs overlap. The 411 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,959 Speaker 1: possibilities are endless so long as it meet within that congruence. 412 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: And so so many black technologists, engineers have a thing, 413 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,719 Speaker 1: a wonderful product. And I was talking to Ju Henson, 414 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: who is an engineer who's developing cannabis hardware now, and 415 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: we were talking about the importance of storytelling. And it's 416 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: one thing to be an engineer and being have a 417 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: great idea great concept, but your ability to storytell could 418 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 1: probably dictate your success better than having the product that works. 419 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: So can you talk about that? Can you talk about 420 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: the importance of storytelling and how engineers people who have 421 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: you know, spend hours a day coding, how they can 422 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: get better at storytelling to better enable their success. Yet, 423 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: storytelling is the currency of community. Storytelling is how culture 424 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: moves forward and also how it propagates, and we tell 425 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: to tell the next generations of next generation to the 426 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: next generation. Right, So stories are probably the most powerful 427 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: vehicle for information exchange, for cultural expectations to be established, 428 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 1: and for expectations to be to be socialized through the 429 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: stories that we tell. So whether you are a marketer, 430 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: whether you are a coder, whether you are the person 431 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 1: pushing the broom as a janitor, Like, the stories align 432 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: us to what we're about, what we stand for, what 433 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: we believe in, and how we preach the gospel to 434 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: people to bring them in. I mean, it's ultimately what 435 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: this boils down to. Right. You think about culture being 436 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: this meaning making vessel the system that governs what people 437 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: like me do, and stories become the way by which 438 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: we communicate what people like me do through the folklore 439 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: through you know, oh this happened to me then, or 440 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: you know what happened to so and so. Gossip works 441 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: really well this way, and as we communicate these things, 442 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 1: we know what people like us ought to do. Does 443 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: this great story about John F. Kennedy the other stage 444 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: of action? He says, you know, we decide to we 445 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: have decided as a country to go to the moon. Like, 446 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: that's what we decide to do. And he visited a 447 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: NASA station once and he saw a janitor pushing the broom. 448 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: He says to the janitors, Hi, how's it going, mister president? 449 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,439 Speaker 1: How are you? And he says to the janitor, what 450 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: are you doing? He says, I'm putting a man on 451 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: the moon. Sir, whoa he's got pushing the button he's 452 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: sweeping the floors, But even his sweeping the floor is 453 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 1: that small little thing is contributing to the broader, the 454 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: broader imperative of the community. The same thing goes to 455 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: the stories that we tell. When people tell stories, I 456 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: know what my job is, I know what I'm supposed 457 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: to do within the organization, and we tell stories to 458 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: the community, the community goes I know that that brand 459 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: is for me, or that that output, that product is 460 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 1: for me. Storytelling. Storytelling gets us on the same page 461 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: and they become the wable which we socialize the gospel 462 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,959 Speaker 1: to bring more people to the table. So if you 463 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 1: are a coder, the better you can articulate why you're coding, 464 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 1: the convey the ideology that governs why you do what 465 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: you do, the chances of you getting more people on board. 466 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: It's far more powerful than not. Yeah. Yeah, you make 467 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: me think about this guy. Paul Judge is a big 468 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,479 Speaker 1: tag guy out of Atlanta who's talked about you know, 469 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: when you're trying to recruit smart engineers with smart engineers 470 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: don't want to work on idio bittie problems. They want 471 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: to work on meaningful problems. And so if you find 472 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: a way to communicate a north star. And this is 473 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: a it's pointing to a question is how to define 474 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 1: your north star? How do you figure what is both 475 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 1: the importance of getting a strong north star for a 476 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: CEO or it would be CEO and founder, and how 477 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: to define it in a way that can get people excited. 478 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: You know, So, maybe my idea is not going to 479 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 1: change the world, but it's worthy of investment, it's worthy 480 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 1: of people to get behind it. So if it's not 481 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: going to change the world, maybe it's I don't want 482 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: to throw an industry or a thing under the bus. 483 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: So let's just say something that's not gonna re revolutionary, 484 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,400 Speaker 1: but it's functional, you know, it's a utility. It helps 485 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: people's lives be better. How can I define my north 486 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: star in a way that gets people excited? Generally speaking? Yeah, 487 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: so it would start with what do you believe? It's 488 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: a belief, like the north star is. It is of 489 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: an ideology that you have, and you communicate that ideology 490 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,719 Speaker 1: to people who see the world the way that you do, 491 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: and those people go, oh, I'm not looking for a job, 492 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: I'm looking for a home. Look at be on people 493 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: who are like myself, people who are within the same 494 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: community that I'm in. And if you look at some 495 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: of the biggest case studies of this, it becomes very 496 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 1: very clear, and think about it from a tech perspective. 497 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: GE did a campaign back in twenty fifteen. It was 498 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: an HR campaign. It's about like getting more people to 499 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: come work for GE. It's called What's the Matter with Owen? 500 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: And the ads were like this, Owen tells his parents, 501 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: I'm working for GE, and his parents go, oh, so 502 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: you're gonna build railroads? Like no, no, no no, I want 503 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 1: to build systems. They're like, I don't I don't understand. 504 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: And GE as a brand believes that the future is made, 505 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 1: that we make the future, we build the future, right, 506 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: That's what GEE believes that that's what we're here to do, 507 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: to build the future. And people who work at GE 508 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: aren't there for a job, they're there to build the future. 509 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: And for Owen, his parents don't get him, his friends 510 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: don't get them, but at GE, we get them. And 511 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: those are stories that GE told And the first eighteen 512 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: months of that campaign run in they had an eight 513 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: hundred percent increase in job applications. Now, those ads did 514 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: say anything about four oh one k, nothing about compensation, 515 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: nothing about location. It was all about conviction, about belief, 516 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: and people were like, yo, that's the kind of company. 517 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: I want to work for people who no one else 518 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: understands me, but they do because like them, I want 519 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: to build the future. And from a biological perspective, we 520 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: are driven by that. The part of the brain is 521 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: responsible for behavior is also associated with our feelings, the 522 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: Olympics system. Right, feelings are associated with our behavior. So 523 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: if you can activate the Olympic system, the emotional part 524 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: of the brain, it increases the chances of people adopting behavior. 525 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: So how do we do that as a leader, as 526 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: a marketer, as an entrepreneur, as a manager, as a 527 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: as an activist, as a politician. You start with the 528 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: soul and end with the cell. As CC Chapman would say, 529 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: start with the soul and end with the cell. What 530 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: do you believe? What do you believe? We believe we 531 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: believe that we should reduce our impact on the environment. Great, 532 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: so we climb clean that's Patagonia. What do you believe? 533 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: We believe that there's too much plastic waste in the world. 534 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: So let's let's murder plastic liquid death. Right, this will 535 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: happen to sell water and t and energy drinks, but 536 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: they're driven by a conviction, right, a way of seeing 537 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: the world, and they preach the gospel the soul. Then 538 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: they end with the cell Dad that I want to 539 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: present you something that I find challenging and fun to 540 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: think about. And it's this concept of for us, by us, 541 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: which I get, I understand, but I also feel like 542 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: we limit ourselves, especially when we think about the conversation 543 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: we started with with you know, black culture leading all 544 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: global culture. So do we unintentionally probably limit our ability 545 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: to scale and affect change in the world when we 546 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: adhere to the concept of for us, for us, part 547 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: by us. I get by us, but why not buy 548 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: us for the world? Yeah? Well I would. I would 549 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: say that it's the specificity for us that makes it 550 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: palable to the world. Right. I believe that it's through 551 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: specificity that we find generality. That's why we can watch 552 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: a movie and that nothing to do with us, nothing 553 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: to do with my own experience, but I could see 554 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: myself in the character because of how specific it is. 555 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: Through the specificity, we get generality. Like no one wears 556 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,959 Speaker 1: um an NFL hat I love all the football you 557 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: wear your team, right, You wear your team because it's 558 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: specific to you. And as you see people engage in 559 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: their fandom, you take that and you mirror it to 560 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: your fandom. So when we when we make stuff for 561 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: us in a way that is so nuanced and it's 562 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: so it's so it hugs all the subtleties of us, 563 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: it feels tighter, and people observe that, they go that 564 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: seems so cool, Like I want to know more about that. 565 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: I mean, that's like the birth of all things that 566 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: come out of the Black experience, right in. The Black 567 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: experience is a so rich I mean, if you look 568 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: at American culture, the first music that came out of 569 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: this country that wasn't brought over from from from Europe 570 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: with minstrel shows that were essentially mockeries of black music. Right. Um. 571 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: So the idea is that when we do things that 572 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,719 Speaker 1: are meant for a specific group of people, a specific 573 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: community of people, it is the most demonstrave representation of 574 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: the cultural characteristics that govern those people and the creative 575 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: output that comes from that. It's much richer than me 576 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: making something for everybody there is. And I talk to 577 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: them all the time, people who do things like I 578 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,719 Speaker 1: do they create podcasts, create content for YouTube? You know 579 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: they are would be influencers trying to build their influence 580 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: and trying to build their reach. And for this community 581 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: of creators, what are some of the most important things 582 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: you think are that you think should be front of 583 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: mind when they're creating content, both to affect change in 584 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: the world and you know, help them meet the scratch 585 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: the ips that they have to put content into the 586 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: world and to broaden the audience that they are able 587 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: to deliver that too. I think it's exactly what we're 588 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: talking about right now, is that don't make content for everyone, 589 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: make content for your community. It is interesting. So if 590 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: you think about the Gaussian curve, what we know is 591 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: the Bill curve or the normal curve. In tech, we 592 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: talk about this is the the diffusion curve, right Everett 593 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: Rodgers diffusion curve That technology, ideas, behaviors, language, culture propagates 594 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: in a community through that Bell curve that you that 595 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: you know of, right, the normal curve, and in the middle, 596 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: that's where the majority of the population is. And marketers 597 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: love that middle because that's where everybody is. The biggest 598 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: mark opportunity is right there. So let me talk to 599 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: them right. We even have the sales funnel to try 600 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: to reach me and them as possible. But it's noisy there, 601 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: it's super busy, and it costs a lot to meet 602 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: people there. It's my super Bowl is so expensive. But 603 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: on the far left side of that diffusion curve, it's 604 00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: subcultures that no one's talking to nobody. They just bell 605 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: you being ignored. You can talk to them. The interesting 606 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: part is that everything that is now cool started with 607 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: them twenty years ago. If you're into comic books, you're 608 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: a loser. Now the movies that we watch across the 609 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 1: globe all come from comic books twenty years ago. If 610 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: you were into gaming, you were a failure to launch, 611 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: living in your mama's basement. Now gaming is a multi 612 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,359 Speaker 1: billion dollar company industry. If you were into anime twenty 613 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: years ago, loser, now cool. Everything that is now cool 614 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: was once subcultural. So what I tell content creators is 615 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: don't talk to the middle talk to the subculture that 616 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: sees the world most like you, because those people will 617 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: go preach the gospel on your behalf. I mean, there 618 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: are more people who watch Game of Thrones than people 619 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: who are into sci fi fantasy. Why is that right. 620 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: People who are way into sci fi and fantasy, who 621 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 1: have been following George R. Martin for years were first 622 00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: to watch Game of Thrones, and then those people were like, yo, 623 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: will you're playing yourself now watching this is the best 624 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: thing on television. You're like, all my friends says the 625 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: best thing on television. I guess I'll go give it 626 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: a shot. Then it convert you, and then you go 627 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:13,879 Speaker 1: convert someone. Everything that is now big started small, so 628 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: as content creators who have limited budgets, limited resources, limited capacity, 629 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: find your community, find your tribe, activate them, and they're 630 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: go preach the gospel in your behalf. There are so 631 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 1: many startups and companies by black founders who don't have 632 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: the budget to hire Marcus Collins or Widen and Kennedy 633 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: or you know, anybody in your category. But what are 634 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,879 Speaker 1: some of the things you could leave this audience with 635 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: that our keys, insights, resources, even that we should be 636 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: thinking about when we're starting companies to be able to 637 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 1: get at least a small impact that a Widen and 638 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: Kennedy or a Marcus Collins would be able to provide 639 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: to us if we had the budget. Well, this is 640 00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: exactly why I wrote the book for the culture are 641 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 1: behind what we buy, what we do, and who we 642 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: want to be to scale this knowledge right, I was 643 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: fortunate enough to stumble into this world of marketing, communications 644 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: and realizing that culture is the most powerful influential force 645 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: on human behavior. And the more I understood culture and 646 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 1: how it's operationalized, the better the work became at influencing 647 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 1: people's behavior. And I started teaching that in classrooms while 648 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 1: also working with brands at places like Wind and Kennedy, 649 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: and I realized they are people who can't coach University 650 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: of Michigan, people who don't work with Wind and Kennedy, 651 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: who deserve a chance, especially people who look like us, 652 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 1: who deserve a chance to help our ideas get out 653 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: into the world and have the impact, both the commercial 654 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 1: and cultural impact that it deserves. So I wrote this 655 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: book to help people do that very thing. So as 656 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: far as resources are concerned, that's the second. That's the 657 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: second though I would say, is that you gotta do 658 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: some introspection like who are you as a company, as 659 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: a brand, as an institution, as an organization, as an entity? 660 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: What do you believe? Not what do you do? But 661 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: what do you believe? How do you see the world, 662 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: And based on how you see the world, who are 663 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: the people out there who see the world of the 664 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 1: way you do? These are those people are the collective 665 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,720 Speaker 1: of the willing, that's your congregation. Go preach the gospel 666 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,880 Speaker 1: to them, because what happens is that when you start 667 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: preaching your gospel, your conviction, they'll go WHOA. Finally someone 668 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: said it. I've been feeling this way forever. I thought 669 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: I was the only one. And what they'll do is go, yo, 670 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: will come check this out. This guy's been saying exactly 671 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: what we've been saying. And then you go and tell 672 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: somebody else, and you tell somebody else. It's so on 673 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: and so on and so on. Right, so you start 674 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: with who you are, who are people see the world 675 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: the way you do? And how do you communicate the 676 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: gospel in such a way that evokes people to move 677 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: through the stories that we tell. That's exactly what I 678 00:37:53,120 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: undover in the book. Black Tech, Green Money is a 679 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: production of Blackvit the afrotech on a Black Effect podcast 680 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 1: networking iHeart Media, and it's produced by Morgan Dubonn and 681 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 1: me Well Lucas, with additional production support by Sarah Ergin 682 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: and Rose McLucas. Special thank you to Michael Davis some 683 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 1: van neces Serrano. Learn more about my guests and other 684 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: tech distruppers and innovators at afrotech dot com. Enjoying black tech, 685 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: green money. Share this with somebody. Go get your money, 686 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 1: Peace and love,