Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I'll I don't know stories of things. We
Speaker 1: simply don't know the answa to Hi there, Welcome to
Speaker 1: another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, joined as always
Speaker 1: by and Steve, and we're going to talk about another
Speaker 1: fascinating mystery this week. Sweet Yeah, I know, this is
Speaker 1: a fun one here. This is a this this one
Speaker 1: has been called dubbed by some people the Honeymoon Killer,
Speaker 1: a k a. Why Devon should never go to Australia. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. Well, don't go to Australia in general. Everything
Speaker 1: there is trying to kill you. But hey, that's besides
Speaker 1: the point. Yeah, it's a deadly place. Yeah, I watch
Speaker 1: Mad Max. You don't believe me. Uh yeah, So this
Speaker 1: is actually about the death of Tina Watson that there
Speaker 1: there's some who, by the way, I feel that the
Speaker 1: name of Honeymoon Killer is not exactly appropriate, but we'll
Speaker 1: talk about that. Yeah. Yeah, But Tina had drowned accidentally
Speaker 1: while scuba diving in Australia in two thousand three four.
Speaker 1: Did she I know? Because there are people, including Tina's
Speaker 1: family and the Australian police, who thinks she was murdered.
Speaker 1: So we got a mystery here, you think, I think
Speaker 1: that's usually why we sit down. Yeah, the other reason heresies.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah. Alright, so let's talk about the death
Speaker 1: of Tina Watson. But first off, I want to give
Speaker 1: a shout out to Maggie who suggested this episode, so
Speaker 1: thank you. Yeah, it's a fun little mystery. And also
Speaker 1: I forgot my last episode I talked about murder on
Speaker 1: the Herbert Fuller fun little story and uh, I forgot
Speaker 1: to mention Rachel, our listener who suggested that one sold. Yes,
Speaker 1: a belated shout out to you, Rachel High and hope
Speaker 1: you're not mad about me forgetting previously. It happened sometimes. Anyway,
Speaker 1: back to our story. Also a warning this episode it
Speaker 1: involves water, which may frighten some people, so you've been warned.
Speaker 1: My mom is actually scared of oceans. She's very uncomfortable
Speaker 1: about the ocean. That is actually a thing. Does that
Speaker 1: include like walking on the beach or just being out
Speaker 1: on boats in the ocean when it's so deep and
Speaker 1: you don't know what's below you. Yeah, anyway, that's a
Speaker 1: thing I could. I can sort of get that. Yeah. Anyway,
Speaker 1: back to our story of Tina and her husband, Gabe.
Speaker 1: That's his name was David Gabriel Watson. I shouldn't say
Speaker 1: it was. As far as I always still alive. David
Speaker 1: Gabriel Watson went by the name Gabe, and Christina May Thomas.
Speaker 1: She went by the name Tina. They were both twenty
Speaker 1: six and there from Helena, Alabama. If you're from Helena,
Speaker 1: if that's pronounced Helena, well I'm sorry, I apologize, but
Speaker 1: I'll go by Helena. The Tina and Gabe men in
Speaker 1: college and they've been together about two years before they
Speaker 1: got married. That was in October two, ius and three,
Speaker 1: and then they went off of their honeymoon in Australia,
Speaker 1: didn't they. Then they have kind of an on again,
Speaker 1: off again relationship during that time. I have heard that,
Speaker 1: but I'm not sure. Okay, That's why I asked, because
Speaker 1: I had seen it somewhere. It's like, I don't I
Speaker 1: don't know who's the source of that. Well, with these two, uh,
Speaker 1: you see a lot of stuff about their relationship out there,
Speaker 1: a lot, and I'm not sure what to believe, to
Speaker 1: be honest with you, Yeah, I think that's one of
Speaker 1: the hardest things about reading this is there's a lot
Speaker 1: of conjecture about the couple and the relationship and in
Speaker 1: their trip and everything. Like, there's just so much weird coverage. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Some people say they were a happy couple. Other people
Speaker 1: say they were totally dysfunctional, And I feel people tend
Speaker 1: to do that. We've definitely covered a lot of cases
Speaker 1: like this where people really read into the relationship and
Speaker 1: kind of put their own spin on it, and realistically,
Speaker 1: nobody can never know what that relationship was like except
Speaker 1: for the two people who were in it. Ye. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's very true. Yeah, and I'll talk I was going
Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about that. Well, Tina into
Speaker 1: is what you you hear from some people, including your
Speaker 1: family and friends. At the age of twenty six, all
Speaker 1: of her friends have gotten married, and she was apparently
Speaker 1: worried that she was gonna wind up being an old maid.
Speaker 1: Cats with cats, We don't know anybody like that. No,
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I don't think it's weird to
Speaker 1: have cats at all, but some people apparently do. But
Speaker 1: it looks like from what people have been saying, it
Speaker 1: looks like Gabe was not exactly Mr Wright for Tina,
Speaker 1: but at least maybe good enough. I guess so Tina
Speaker 1: was desperate. This is, you know, not necessarily true. This
Speaker 1: is just what some people have been saying. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: right up there with they got married to fix a relationship.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we see in stories they had children to save
Speaker 1: the relationship. That's what you see that out there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But and then on the other side, Gabe was supposed
Speaker 1: to be a very controlling, Dominetian kind of person. He
Speaker 1: reportedly said to Tina that, well, if you want to
Speaker 1: be with me, you're going to have to learn to
Speaker 1: do the things I like to do, which is fishing
Speaker 1: and scuba diving. Of course, we've all seen how well
Speaker 1: the scuba diving turned out for Tea. Yeah. And of
Speaker 1: course there was a famous engagement ring episode, which I'm
Speaker 1: sure you guys have heard about, right, I mean probably
Speaker 1: our listeners haven't. They probably haven't, let me tell them
Speaker 1: about that. And again this is um from I think
Speaker 1: Tina's sister mostly. So can can I give a little
Speaker 1: caveat here? Which is his family? Gabe family apparently liked Tina. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Tina's family despised Gabe prior to everything going down. That
Speaker 1: very least, yeah, at the very at least they had
Speaker 1: they didn't they didn't like it. They weren't sure by
Speaker 1: this point in time they actually do this question because
Speaker 1: they spent some bad water under the bridge or something.
Speaker 1: But but the the engagement ring episode was supposedly after
Speaker 1: they've been together, like maybe six months or god don't
Speaker 1: I can't remember, he bought an engagement ring for her
Speaker 1: and and brings it home in a little bag, a
Speaker 1: little from the from the jewelers that's got the jeweler's
Speaker 1: name of the side of it, sets it on top
Speaker 1: of his big screen TV at home, and then she
Speaker 1: see sit sitting in the seats of access what's in
Speaker 1: the bag? And he says, oh, it's an engagement ring,
Speaker 1: but you can't look at it. And she's like what
Speaker 1: And he says, no, you can't look at it. If
Speaker 1: you look at it, I'm gonna return the ring. And
Speaker 1: so she didn't look at it. And supposedly this is
Speaker 1: like tormenting her for months according to some people. And
Speaker 1: this is sort of a telling story of it's a
Speaker 1: game to him about Gabe, you know, you know, being
Speaker 1: this sort of manipulative, domineering person. I okay, I mean
Speaker 1: I don't want to again. Sometimes we put ourselves in
Speaker 1: the position where we find ourselves defending people who are
Speaker 1: kind of jerks. But to me, you know, either that
Speaker 1: is like super domineering or it's his idea of romance,
Speaker 1: like he you know, he's trying to like build suspense
Speaker 1: and drawing it out. Yeah, he's like, well, okay, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna gage and we're gonna get Yeah. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think of situations where guys are like, oh, yeah, I
Speaker 1: bought the ring six months in because I knew, and
Speaker 1: then three years later I finally proposed, And I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe in his head it was super romantic to be like,
Speaker 1: here's the thing that we're going to do, but also
Speaker 1: it is super jerk move. I'd be mad, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: did that to me? Yeah, But again, you don't know
Speaker 1: exactly how he said it. He might have just said
Speaker 1: it kiddingly and all that stuff. I mean, I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the other thing too. He could have totally been
Speaker 1: like joking like ha ha, don't open that, expecting her
Speaker 1: to open it, and she was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I better not open it. So she interpreted it one way,
Speaker 1: and he was hoping she would open it because then
Speaker 1: he'd be like so very be I don't know. I
Speaker 1: think this is this this case is much like uh,
Speaker 1: I think it was actually your last one, Joe the
Speaker 1: Herbert Fuller, where the context and the way that the
Speaker 1: statements were made ken dramatically changed what their meaning is.
Speaker 1: And that's I think we're gonna we're gonna have to
Speaker 1: talk about that several times from this. And there's there's
Speaker 1: been a lot said about this one too. Like one
Speaker 1: of the things that's been said about about Gabe is
Speaker 1: that he changed his story like sixteen times. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: not necessarily so, but but anyway, his the picture that's
Speaker 1: been painted of Gabe and the press, frankly, it's not
Speaker 1: been good, not at all. And I had no idea
Speaker 1: how much, if any of that stuff is really true.
Speaker 1: Probably a lot of his bs, I know, a lot
Speaker 1: of it came from Tina's families. He said things were
Speaker 1: never great between Gabe and Tina's family, and then of course,
Speaker 1: after Tina died, while things really went south in a
Speaker 1: big way, as you would expect. Yeah, yeah, it's understandable.
Speaker 1: Of course, you know, Gabe did sort of get her killed,
Speaker 1: but encouraged her to get her to get into scuba
Speaker 1: at the very least. Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, and
Speaker 1: and of course they think it went beyond that. I
Speaker 1: think think he murdered her. But we'll talk about that
Speaker 1: in a few minutes. Yeah, uh yeah. And so they've
Speaker 1: kind of put everything, every aspect of Gabe and his
Speaker 1: relationship with Tina in the worst possible And I think
Speaker 1: back to our honeymoon that we've been We've taken a
Speaker 1: little detour there. But no, they got married, they went
Speaker 1: out for their honeymoon in Australia, and of course somebody
Speaker 1: didn't make it back and the other one became known
Speaker 1: in the press as the honeymoon killer. Uh yeah, so
Speaker 1: that's our mystery. This week. They had about two weeks
Speaker 1: in Australia and the plan was is that the first
Speaker 1: week would be Tina's week and they would just do
Speaker 1: stuff that Tina wanted to do. Uh you know, I'm sorry, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm going to be super judge and say, like,
Speaker 1: if you can't compromise with a couple on things you
Speaker 1: might want to do together. Well, I don't think that
Speaker 1: it was all this, you know, screw you were doing this,
Speaker 1: it's my week. I don't think it was quite like
Speaker 1: that necessarily. It's more like just what do you her
Speaker 1: turn to plan? Yeah, what do you really want to
Speaker 1: do in Australia. But that's stuck to me is very
Speaker 1: weird because I know what I went on mine. It
Speaker 1: was we have we have these things in this area
Speaker 1: while we're there, Which ones do we want to do? Yes,
Speaker 1: I mean I know what happened on yours, if not
Speaker 1: in yours. The first week was your wife's week, and
Speaker 1: then the second week was your wife's week. I was
Speaker 1: going to say the first week was alcohol and the
Speaker 1: second week would be more alcohol. Totally true too, Yeah
Speaker 1: she didn't say that. Yeah, no, okay, but they had
Speaker 1: so they had a week the during Tina this week,
Speaker 1: and I see, Tina wanted to experience Australian culture, which
Speaker 1: you know what Australians do. They drink fosters and they
Speaker 1: also put on leather outfits, put stuff out on the bobby.
Speaker 1: Yeah they do that. But they also you know, they
Speaker 1: wear leather and they and they drive muscle cars at
Speaker 1: high speeds in the outback. Yeah, and these are all
Speaker 1: very true statements. And they change people on guitars to
Speaker 1: the front of cars exactly. And then they had these
Speaker 1: high speed chases and shooted each other and stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, Australia actually sounds like a pretty pretty place.
Speaker 1: That's why I want to go to all our Australian
Speaker 1: listeners before you shut this off and unsubscribe. Sorry, we're
Speaker 1: having fun. Yeah, we totally are. Uh. Well, then we
Speaker 1: number two came around. It was Gave's turn, and Gave
Speaker 1: it booked a trip with Mike Ball's Diet Expeditions. And
Speaker 1: of course this was a bad idea. Uh nobody knew
Speaker 1: that at the time yet, but it turned out to
Speaker 1: be a bad idea because based on my anecdotal analysis,
Speaker 1: statistical probability of somebody dying on your scuba honeymoon in Australia,
Speaker 1: it's about that. Actually, that's not right. That's not right. No,
Speaker 1: because I have friends who did it, and they're both
Speaker 1: still they both came back. Did anybody on your expedition
Speaker 1: not come back? Okay, well everybody made it. That that
Speaker 1: is the exception. Actually, all all I know is I
Speaker 1: remember reading the paper. This is years ago though, this
Speaker 1: couple was honeymooning off the Great Barrier Reef and they
Speaker 1: were scuba diving, and then how you got eaten by
Speaker 1: a great white shark which I'm sure it cast to
Speaker 1: Paul over things just and then of course there's this
Speaker 1: one where Tina died, So there you go. That's pretty high.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And of course there's there might be other
Speaker 1: stuff going on out there where people scuba div and
Speaker 1: nothing happens. But I don't know about this, so I
Speaker 1: don't care. That's not included in your data now exactly
Speaker 1: used incidents where people were killed in made that I
Speaker 1: have heard of. So yeah, my data set asist of
Speaker 1: two U. But our story is, yeah, they're they're on
Speaker 1: a dive trip with Mike Ball Dive Expeditions and it's
Speaker 1: going to be a dive on the SS Young Gala,
Speaker 1: which was a ship that was a shipwreck. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: sat in the cyclone in nineteen eleven. There's two got it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I wasn't sailing on I know, I was like, wait,
Speaker 1: I thought this was a scuba diving thing, not a
Speaker 1: shipwreck thing. But you can in the ship. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: can dive on the records, but yeah, yeah, the record
Speaker 1: is not sailing anymore though, it's sort of sitting in
Speaker 1: one spot. Yeah. Yeah. The Young Gala was rediscovered in
Speaker 1: night and it's considered today to be one of the
Speaker 1: world's best wreck dives. And I guess you know. Wreck
Speaker 1: dives are a big thing with scuba divers. Yeah, very popular.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, totally because normally you go down there, what's
Speaker 1: there to look at? A bunch of fish? So it's
Speaker 1: kind of cool and drom act to be able to
Speaker 1: look at the wreck ship of swim through it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think they encourage people to swim through this one. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean swim through like the top deck in the
Speaker 1: you go around the cabins, That's what I mean by that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and you're not really supposed to go inside
Speaker 1: when you're not a good idea, No, not really, unless
Speaker 1: you're very highly rated, which these people aren't. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: things to cut yourself on, and god knows what's living inside.
Speaker 1: There's exactly something to be thinking about too. I saw
Speaker 1: finding Nemo, I know those things. Oh yeah, there's all
Speaker 1: kinds of scary stuff hiding in there. But from the
Speaker 1: outside of least, it looks pretty cool. Let me give
Speaker 1: you a quick rundown of how the wreck looks. It's
Speaker 1: about fifty miles off the east coast of Australia and
Speaker 1: it's southeast of a town called Townsville. And how far
Speaker 1: is that in? Okay? Yeah, and it's about twenty eight
Speaker 1: ms down or about a hundred feet so the sea
Speaker 1: flowers now it's laying on at starboards side, so it's
Speaker 1: not super deep. But no, not not really no, And
Speaker 1: especially you don't have to go all the way down.
Speaker 1: You can cruise like fifty ft down and see the
Speaker 1: wreck nice and and just look at it from up.
Speaker 1: My point was, it's not like you requires some crazy
Speaker 1: dive set up like Whember we talking about Ben mcdanie
Speaker 1: the gas mixes that he needs. It's nothing like that. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: not at all. And uh it is considered a sort
Speaker 1: of difficult dive because of currents and such things. But
Speaker 1: the wreck is oriented north to south of the bows,
Speaker 1: pointing north, maybe a little bit off north, but more
Speaker 1: or less north south. And they've set it up for
Speaker 1: what essentially with permanent access points or permanent permanent anchor points.
Speaker 1: Because so many boats are coming and going bringing dive
Speaker 1: groups there, you can't have people setting anchors all the time.
Speaker 1: So if they oh yeah, so they they've dropped these
Speaker 1: massive concrete blocks with chains or ropes attached to them
Speaker 1: that go up to booties. So your cruise up in
Speaker 1: your boat full of divers and you just grab one
Speaker 1: of those booies and tie your anchor line of that
Speaker 1: instead of dropping an anchor. And there's two two special
Speaker 1: blocks that are called diver access points or d ap s,
Speaker 1: and those are there's one of the bow, one with
Speaker 1: the stern. Also a chain or rope. I've heard it said,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure which it is. I've seen a picture
Speaker 1: of it looks like a rope, but other people have
Speaker 1: said it's a change. It doesn't matter. It's a line
Speaker 1: that goes down to about ten ms in front of
Speaker 1: the ship from a boolly a top and then so
Speaker 1: that's what you get in, and then you cruise down
Speaker 1: that the current is flowing from north to south along
Speaker 1: the wreck, and so what happened. What most divers do
Speaker 1: is they get in at what's called DAP too diver
Speaker 1: access point to at the at the bow, go down
Speaker 1: as deep as they feel like going, and then just
Speaker 1: let go and let the current take them across just
Speaker 1: down the length of the wreck, so you can just
Speaker 1: basically drift over the top of it and check it
Speaker 1: out and get to the exit. And get to the
Speaker 1: exit line down one and just climb back out again. Uh.
Speaker 1: And of course you can do whatever you want. You
Speaker 1: can stop off and explore and you know, prowl around
Speaker 1: on the on the side of the wreck or just
Speaker 1: or you can just like I say, drift right over
Speaker 1: the top of it, just like a lazy river. Yeah,
Speaker 1: pretty much like a little river. Cruis gonna yeah, and
Speaker 1: so it looks like water, yeah, yeah, you know what
Speaker 1: I'm talking about. Yeah. And so on the morning I
Speaker 1: believe it was October two, the second, two thousand three,
Speaker 1: they had gotten on their their boat, which was called
Speaker 1: the spoils board dive boat that they were on. They
Speaker 1: had gotten on that the night before, and then they
Speaker 1: spent the night as they on the boat, and then
Speaker 1: then the next morning I think they actually I think
Speaker 1: that night they cruised out and just sort of spent
Speaker 1: the night cruising out there. And they woke up in
Speaker 1: the morning and they were pretty much there. The spoil
Speaker 1: spoort tied off at what's called accident or point nine
Speaker 1: oh five, which is an anchor point two directly to
Speaker 1: the east of the wreck. And then a little later
Speaker 1: in the morning another boat showed up, the Jazz To,
Speaker 1: which is another dive company, and they tied up at
Speaker 1: point nine oh four, which is a point north of
Speaker 1: where the spoil sport was and kind of northeast of
Speaker 1: the wreck, so the JAZ two was actually pretty close
Speaker 1: to the bow of the ship. And then later on
Speaker 1: yet another boat showed up on the other side at
Speaker 1: point nine oh three and they tied up. That's the
Speaker 1: Adrenaline tied up there. So there were three boats in
Speaker 1: the water there and a lot of divers, and so
Speaker 1: what happened is so they they're making kind of a
Speaker 1: loose triangle on top of the wreck at this point, Yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of around the outside of the wreck. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I had a very popular place, just a teeming with
Speaker 1: divers all the time. Yeah. Well, on that on the
Speaker 1: day of they went to get in the water there.
Speaker 1: So the spoil sport was of course south of the
Speaker 1: access point. So what would happen is that people would
Speaker 1: suit up and they would get into it like a
Speaker 1: rubber rubbering kind of thing, went a little bigger than
Speaker 1: a dinghy, but essentially a boat and uh, and they
Speaker 1: would be ferried up to the to the put in
Speaker 1: point diver excess point too, and and then they would
Speaker 1: all go just go down and do their thing, and
Speaker 1: then they could when they got to the exit point,
Speaker 1: they could either be picked up by a boat or
Speaker 1: I think they had a rope actually when they tied,
Speaker 1: they tied a rope across from the spoils board to
Speaker 1: the exit line, and they also put they also put
Speaker 1: a cylinder of air down there too, at five meters
Speaker 1: down for people who are running low on the air
Speaker 1: but wanted had needed to do a little decompressing, so
Speaker 1: they had an extra cylinder bear hanging down there for
Speaker 1: safety sounds. I think that's standard, right, Yeah, I feel
Speaker 1: like I remember from the Ben McDaniel saying it was
Speaker 1: the compression that like you would have extra especially on
Speaker 1: a on a set up organization like this, absolutely, because
Speaker 1: while a hundred feet isn't going to give you the
Speaker 1: worst decompressions, the bends, yeah, there is a chance of
Speaker 1: some of it. So it is good you would want
Speaker 1: to have tanks there so that, yeah, just in case,
Speaker 1: you know, the guy needs to sit there for five
Speaker 1: minutes and he's only got three minutes of air, you
Speaker 1: want to encourage him to do the right thing by
Speaker 1: having the air available instead of just saying screw it.
Speaker 1: I've only got three minutes. I'm just gonna get out
Speaker 1: and then barfing all over your boat. Yeah, sometimes it's
Speaker 1: worse than barfing that the bands are bad my understanding
Speaker 1: of how that works. I'm sure I'll get an email
Speaker 1: about this, but it's just a lot of it has
Speaker 1: to do with depth and also how long you've been down. Yes,
Speaker 1: so it's how long you've been down, and then how
Speaker 1: long you spent taking how long you come up to
Speaker 1: allow the Is it the nitrogen in your blood? Is
Speaker 1: that what it is? I think yeah, I think it is.
Speaker 1: You get little bubbles your blood and stuff, and and
Speaker 1: so there was that there was some controversy about this,
Speaker 1: even in that one. Some people feel like Gabe took
Speaker 1: too long to come up to surface. And but we'll
Speaker 1: talk about that soon though. So they were heading out
Speaker 1: about maybe ten to get into the water, and they
Speaker 1: were they were one of a group of six divers,
Speaker 1: and they headed out to the access point. I had
Speaker 1: climbed on in with the other divers and sorry, how
Speaker 1: long had Tina and Gabe been Probably should have mentioned that, yeah,
Speaker 1: they were. What Gabe had been doing its dramatically different
Speaker 1: amounts of touch, but just wondering for Gabe had been
Speaker 1: doing it since I believe nineteen and he had a
Speaker 1: total number He hadn't total number of dives like fifty
Speaker 1: six dives, which is and then Tina had I think
Speaker 1: eleven dives under her belt. She was a novice and
Speaker 1: she was not good at it it. Actually Gave was
Speaker 1: a novice too. I mean he had a lot of
Speaker 1: his dives were just like kind of pooled dives. He
Speaker 1: actually took his first classes in in a quarry basically
Speaker 1: a flooded quarry, which means there's no current whatsoever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: very contry, old environment. He did a little bit of
Speaker 1: ocean diving, not too much, and most of his dives
Speaker 1: were pretty shallow. We're talking and I think the deepest
Speaker 1: he ever went was about something like that. That sounds
Speaker 1: about right, Yeah, but yeah, he but he if you read,
Speaker 1: when you do the reading on this, what's so confusing.
Speaker 1: This is what really lights some people on fire. People
Speaker 1: will list his certifications. Other than the quote unquote rescue
Speaker 1: dive certification. All he had was basic novice certifications. He
Speaker 1: could dive. He was okay to dive on his own
Speaker 1: in a group. He wasn't some crazy super expert dive
Speaker 1: master in any way, shape or form. I'll just mention
Speaker 1: that just because you're certified rescue something doesn't anything really mean.
Speaker 1: It means you technically have the knowledge in your brain
Speaker 1: on how to do a given thing, but until you're
Speaker 1: foot in that situation, you have no idea if you're
Speaker 1: going to be able to do it well. Exactly. He
Speaker 1: took this class, and he even set himself in his
Speaker 1: police interview of the class really more covered things like
Speaker 1: just search patterns and stuff like that, like how to
Speaker 1: find somebody versus how to actually do the harry work
Speaker 1: of rescuing the and so you know, he wasn't as
Speaker 1: qualified as as he sort of made himself out to be.
Speaker 1: And I don't I'm not sure too. I mean again,
Speaker 1: I don't want to accuse him of misrepresenting himself. Maybe
Speaker 1: he didn't. He might have you know, he might not
Speaker 1: have said he might not. He might have just said, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, I did take this rescue class, and people
Speaker 1: might have heard, oh, he's a certified rescue diver. Maybe
Speaker 1: gave never misrepresented himself at all. I really people have
Speaker 1: said that he did. I don't. I'm not so sure that. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like he's a bit of a blowhard, but
Speaker 1: say that. The other half of your question was Tina.
Speaker 1: She had only been diving in pools if I remember correct,
Speaker 1: or maybe one quarry for like a year. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: she's been in classes and apparently was not good at
Speaker 1: it and was kind of panicky underwater. Did not take
Speaker 1: to it like a duck to water, not at all. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she h fish. Yeah instance, Yeah, she did not seem
Speaker 1: to be, but she really seemed determined to learn because
Speaker 1: you know, Gabe was her man, and she wanted to
Speaker 1: do the school of things so she could be doing
Speaker 1: things with him. You know. Okay, I just realized we
Speaker 1: hadn't talked about that yet. And it's actually what they
Speaker 1: did is not un comedy. But like I said, I
Speaker 1: had friends who he was a diver forever. He wanted
Speaker 1: to go to this tropical place and dive on their honeymoon.
Speaker 1: And she said, yeah, let's do that. Let me go
Speaker 1: get this, and she took like six months or a
Speaker 1: year of lessons in preparation before they ever went out.
Speaker 1: Like people do this, there's nothing bad and a fairies
Speaker 1: to say, hey, let's take a dive trip on her honeymoon.
Speaker 1: It's just some people are more take to it better
Speaker 1: than others. Yeah, I and I thought myself, you know,
Speaker 1: I've always thought if I lived in a nicer climate
Speaker 1: with clearer, warmer oceans, I would totally be a scuba diver.
Speaker 1: But we live in Oregon. And let's let's say I said,
Speaker 1: I I know, was some scuba divers and they jet
Speaker 1: halfway around the world. They go to the Caribbean, they
Speaker 1: go to the South Pacific. You know, you can't do
Speaker 1: it without a lot of money. But there's not that
Speaker 1: many places to really do a good scuba around here.
Speaker 1: So I'm not a scuba diver. You know, Otherwise I
Speaker 1: would because it's cool. Yeah, I'd love to do it,
Speaker 1: you know. But so they go out with oh yeah,
Speaker 1: so back to our story here. So they go out
Speaker 1: with four other divers and they get in the water
Speaker 1: and go down just a little ways, and then it
Speaker 1: turns out that gives dive computer is not working right,
Speaker 1: and yeah, thats computer is like this this little apparat
Speaker 1: basically a smart watch for underwater. It's like a gigantic
Speaker 1: watch underwater, and it does stuff like it keeps track
Speaker 1: of your depths and stuff. And some of them I've
Speaker 1: been told I talked to a dive expert about this stuff.
Speaker 1: Actually is. His name is Austin at Aquatic Sports here
Speaker 1: in Portland, and he was very very helpful and explaining
Speaker 1: how some of this stuff works to me. So dive
Speaker 1: computers can be There's there's several different types. Like the cheapest,
Speaker 1: simplest kind is basically uses computer algorithms to just sort
Speaker 1: of estimate, you know, if you put that, you put
Speaker 1: your parameters in. It just sort of says, hey, you
Speaker 1: told me you had this moxt ostygen. You've been down
Speaker 1: for this long, you might be running out, dude, you
Speaker 1: know that kind of thing, Real simple stuff. And then
Speaker 1: the more fancier ones like the one Gabe has actually
Speaker 1: has a little radio transmitter that you put in your
Speaker 1: tank and and actually the the it's got a sensor
Speaker 1: that can sense the pressure in your tank, can tell
Speaker 1: you how much air you've got left, which is kind
Speaker 1: of cool, kind of important. And so this one had
Speaker 1: had issues. Uh. In his first statement to the police,
Speaker 1: he said that they got in the water and he
Speaker 1: noticed it wasn't working. In his second statement it was
Speaker 1: later on he's I think it was on the same day,
Speaker 1: but just later in the day with a different interrogatory.
Speaker 1: He said that, well, they got in the water and
Speaker 1: his computer was beeping at him and saying that there
Speaker 1: was a malfunction and saying he had no air pressure
Speaker 1: and so he was So they got back out of
Speaker 1: the water, they get back on the boat, they go
Speaker 1: back to the spoil sports. Yeahina both go together. They
Speaker 1: got to go together. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, because
Speaker 1: you got you want your And this is one of
Speaker 1: the things I asked Austin and said, well, you know,
Speaker 1: is it really that important And he said, well, you
Speaker 1: know what kind of is because I guess what divers
Speaker 1: you want to keep track of all your stats. It's
Speaker 1: like a baseball player, you know, And so that's one
Speaker 1: reason they want to keep track of all their dives.
Speaker 1: And your dive computer does that for you. It actually
Speaker 1: keeps his memory and it keeps track of your dives,
Speaker 1: how deep you went, what your oxygen consumption was like,
Speaker 1: and how fast you came you went down and came
Speaker 1: back up, and all kinds of stuff like that, and
Speaker 1: so they like to keep tracking. So so he said,
Speaker 1: you know, I would probably fix it rather than you know,
Speaker 1: just go without. You could do the dive without it.
Speaker 1: But your typical diver is gonna because something A little
Speaker 1: bit has been made about this, about the whole he
Speaker 1: had to go back just because his dive computer wasn't working.
Speaker 1: What's the big deal, dude? You know? And it's thought
Speaker 1: it's an important piece of equipment. Well, it's it's a
Speaker 1: kind of a safety equipment. Yeah. Well it's been thought
Speaker 1: that perhaps there were too many divers around and he
Speaker 1: wanted an excuse to delay and come back out a
Speaker 1: little later when there weren't as many divers. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: And I think it was Dateline NBC actually mentioned this point,
Speaker 1: but they weren't the first of the last to say that. Well,
Speaker 1: because he went back to Spoilsport, took out open it up,
Speaker 1: took out the battery, realized it was in backwards, flipped
Speaker 1: it around and put it in the right way, and
Speaker 1: the dive computer worked. So so if his dive computer
Speaker 1: is is beeping at him and he had the battery
Speaker 1: in backwards, it wouldn't have worked. So it had to
Speaker 1: have been the battery on his tank. The little the
Speaker 1: sensor on his tank had been the one that was
Speaker 1: in backwards, or it wasn't actually beeping at him. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm giving him the benefit of that. We'll see. That
Speaker 1: is the point that people have made is they said, like, well, okay,
Speaker 1: if the battery was in backwards, then it couldn't have
Speaker 1: been beeping at him because it wouldn't work at all.
Speaker 1: It's not even going to produce a bit. But if
Speaker 1: the tank receiver is not sending any information, the dive
Speaker 1: computer theoretically would be like, hey, you have no air.
Speaker 1: You have no air. It's getting no signal. That was essentially,
Speaker 1: and apparently what this particular one, It's called an oceanic,
Speaker 1: and Oceanic makes a lot a lot of different models.
Speaker 1: I can't remember what model this exactly was, but but yeah,
Speaker 1: it was the transmitter battery that was in apparent And
Speaker 1: apparently you know how their their coins cells basically, yeah,
Speaker 1: a little bit like watch batteries, right, You know how
Speaker 1: they've got the smooth side that's got the little plus
Speaker 1: sign it and everything, and usually that side is the upside. Well,
Speaker 1: and this one the one that goes the unit that
Speaker 1: goes in the one and your on your wrist is
Speaker 1: like that. But the one that goes in the transmitter
Speaker 1: of the tank is the other way. Around and so yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and so that's what happens. You put it in backwards.
Speaker 1: Apparently they recommend taking the batteries out if you're not
Speaker 1: going to use it for a week or more, which
Speaker 1: is not a bad idea with electronic devices, the batteries out.
Speaker 1: So he'd put the batteries in just prior to his trip,
Speaker 1: I think, and I got one of them in backwards.
Speaker 1: So yeah, he flipped it around and it worked. So again,
Speaker 1: it wasn't that his computer was working. It's just a transmitter,
Speaker 1: as you say, in his tank was not working, transmitting
Speaker 1: a signal. And I also, just as a note, don't
Speaker 1: find anything particularly nefarious from him first saying it wasn't
Speaker 1: working in second saying it was beeping, because he's saying
Speaker 1: the same thing. Yeah, right, he just has had a detail. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not yeah, exactly as it's calmed. I mean, as
Speaker 1: he's gotten further away. Well, I mean what happened, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean they both essentially saying the same thing. One
Speaker 1: saying it's not working right, you know, beeping or not.
Speaker 1: In the second time it wasn't working right. A little
Speaker 1: more information. Yeah, and this is you know, Joe, you
Speaker 1: just said this earlier. Is that there's the his story
Speaker 1: change sixteen times. This is an example of the quote
Speaker 1: unquote changes. They're very simple little things, and we've talked
Speaker 1: about before, you know, witness statements change and evolve, and
Speaker 1: well that's just what happens, exactly. And the thing about
Speaker 1: it is, too, is he made certain statements to the police,
Speaker 1: and they were more or less the same, although I
Speaker 1: admit I had to admit some of them don't entirely
Speaker 1: make sense, but okay, But then he said other things
Speaker 1: to other people. There were a lot of other people
Speaker 1: there that were fellow divers on the boat and company,
Speaker 1: you know, employees and stuff, and he said various things
Speaker 1: to various people, and also members of Tina's family at cetera,
Speaker 1: Tina's dad and his sister. And then it was out,
Speaker 1: not actually until several years after this whole incident that
Speaker 1: there began to be a big, huge police investigation. A
Speaker 1: lot of these people were not interviewed until several years
Speaker 1: after the fact. And these are people who had talked
Speaker 1: to Gabe. But after several years, I mean, they're all
Speaker 1: going to have different memories and so and so that
Speaker 1: the whole he changed his story sixteen times really kind
Speaker 1: of came from that. All these different people said that
Speaker 1: Gabe said different things. But I mean, but they said
Speaker 1: he said, they said he said this, and yeah, years later,
Speaker 1: and so what do you expect? I mean, I also
Speaker 1: will just briefly mentioned sorry before we get back into
Speaker 1: the story here. Um. I also feel like it's like
Speaker 1: either way, right, police are often suspicious. When they're like,
Speaker 1: the story didn't change at all, that's that's even more.
Speaker 1: And then they're like, but the story changes, just like, no,
Speaker 1: nobody's ever going to be happy with the moral of
Speaker 1: the story is police are always suspicious, yea, which I
Speaker 1: guessed to. That's that's kind of the nature of their job.
Speaker 1: And alright, so the battery, he fixed it, and then
Speaker 1: what they go back out? Yeah yeah, yeah, they still
Speaker 1: they go back out. And by the way, apparently Tina
Speaker 1: was complaining that she felt too buoyant, and so she, uh,
Speaker 1: she did ask an employee on the boat where the
Speaker 1: weights were because she was she's wearing what's called a
Speaker 1: b c D. That's a buoyancy compensation device, which is
Speaker 1: an inflatable bags. Essentially, it's a vast as part of
Speaker 1: your gear. It's like that your your tank attaches to
Speaker 1: it everything, and it fastens around your body, and it's
Speaker 1: got bladders inside so you can inflate it and change
Speaker 1: your buoyancy. And it hooks up to your eoks up
Speaker 1: to your air tank and bleeds ab out that and
Speaker 1: so you can inflate it or deflated is needed to
Speaker 1: change your buoyancy. But she felt and then they also
Speaker 1: have pockets so you can add weight, and so she
Speaker 1: felt like she was underweighted. So she said that she
Speaker 1: say where the weights, and she was pointed towards the ways,
Speaker 1: But nobody actually recalls seeing her grabbing weights and putting
Speaker 1: them in her pockets or what it turns out in
Speaker 1: the end, she wounded up with about twenty pounds of
Speaker 1: weight in her pockets, which some people feel was too much.
Speaker 1: That's about four different chunks of metal she had in
Speaker 1: your pockets. And I don't know because I don't you know. Again,
Speaker 1: it's it's gonna vary. It depends on your gear, depends
Speaker 1: on Tina well, Tina wade Uh. I think she weighed
Speaker 1: about hundred forty pounds. I have no idea what her body,
Speaker 1: her body composition was. I don't know she was solid
Speaker 1: muscle or mostly fat. You know fat. I had no idea,
Speaker 1: so it all there's a a lot of variables there.
Speaker 1: I also, you know, you're you're not going to say, yeah,
Speaker 1: the weights are over there and I'm going to watch
Speaker 1: you put them in your vest. You're gonna say, this
Speaker 1: is a responsible adult who's making their own decisions. They
Speaker 1: probably find the waiver. The dive company had apparently already
Speaker 1: talked to them and been convinced that they were competent divers,
Speaker 1: although they knew that she was a bit of a novice.
Speaker 1: One thing, they they were apparently they were supposed to
Speaker 1: do a test dive with her. They're supposed to do
Speaker 1: an orientation die and that never happened. So that, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm sure that the guy on the boat who is
Speaker 1: helping out is presumes these things have already been taken
Speaker 1: care of, so it's not his job to watch her
Speaker 1: like she's a two year old child. Well yeah, actually,
Speaker 1: you can't be just badgering people left and right, saying, oh,
Speaker 1: by the way, are you sure you can handle that
Speaker 1: weight and confident? I can't really be saying that people,
Speaker 1: you know. But so she puts in her vest, She
Speaker 1: puts in her vest, and and she might have overweighted herself.
Speaker 1: Had to say, it seems in the light up everything
Speaker 1: that happened afterwards, she might have um and uh, And
Speaker 1: that's one thing I should say about the company. So
Speaker 1: they did kind of like drop the ball on this
Speaker 1: a little bit, a little fast and loose. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: probably should have. I mean, I mean I think that
Speaker 1: really this whole situation would have turned out just fine
Speaker 1: if if but these two but really, Gave and Tina
Speaker 1: were not were They were both basically novices, you know,
Speaker 1: both of them were. And they should not have been
Speaker 1: die buddies on that. On that particularly, they should have
Speaker 1: had more experienced dives. But yeah, they should have. They
Speaker 1: should have been paired off with the experienced die But
Speaker 1: they really should have. But I'm sure from their point
Speaker 1: of view, A, it's our honeymoon. We want to be together.
Speaker 1: We want to be together to drift past this wreck.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be so magical, you know, and all this
Speaker 1: stuff romantic. Yeah, put an engagement ring on it. That's
Speaker 1: a good point. I was too late for that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So back on the boat. They got back on the
Speaker 1: little boat is and then it's just the two of them. No, actually,
Speaker 1: they were I think four divers this time again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I don't think they were. I think there were
Speaker 1: fewer divers. I think they were like the two of
Speaker 1: them and then two others, one of whom was Wade Singleton,
Speaker 1: who was like the diving director on this trip. So
Speaker 1: he was like the most senior diver on the ship.
Speaker 1: And he is actually the guy who wound up like
Speaker 1: fishing Tina. He rescued her. Yeah, but so he was
Speaker 1: there and they all they headed back down and they
Speaker 1: seemed to go okay, at least for a little bit.
Speaker 1: They went down about and I think they wound up
Speaker 1: at about a depth of around forty five ft. They
Speaker 1: went down slowly, but they were in the water probably
Speaker 1: at a maximum of ten minutes. And it was actually
Speaker 1: not too long after they got in the water and
Speaker 1: got down to about forty five ft And apparently they
Speaker 1: were drifting down stream or from not because there is
Speaker 1: a current going from from it's moving from the south
Speaker 1: from yeah, from north to south south from the from
Speaker 1: the bow towards the stern. They were moving with the current,
Speaker 1: and Gabe said later that he felt the current was
Speaker 1: way too strong. He thought it was really super strong,
Speaker 1: much stronger than he had been expecting, and that apparently
Speaker 1: what was a little bit scary for both him and
Speaker 1: Tri Tina. And they were of course being pushed away
Speaker 1: from the entry line the adapt to the stir that
Speaker 1: excuse me, the bow line, and they were getting down
Speaker 1: about probably maybe ards, so essentially visibile. It was about
Speaker 1: fifty or twenty yards underwater that they kind of they
Speaker 1: kind of lost sight of it. I mean, they kind
Speaker 1: of knew where it was because the ship was underneath them,
Speaker 1: but at this point in time, they drifted over the
Speaker 1: ship and apparently um Gibs said that Tina's seemed to
Speaker 1: be anxious and she signaled she wanted to go back
Speaker 1: to the back to the line and get out. Apparently
Speaker 1: she was having and I could sort of see it
Speaker 1: because I mean, um, I haven't scoped it, but I've
Speaker 1: done a lot of snorkeling in the ocean. Not in Hawaii,
Speaker 1: by the way, but that snorkel then, and it's a
Speaker 1: really alien environment. It is kind of it is if
Speaker 1: you're not used to it, it's kind of scary, you know,
Speaker 1: and especially when you're drifting over this huge whole clop
Speaker 1: of ship. There's something about huge objects underwater. That's kind
Speaker 1: of intimidating, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, it is,
Speaker 1: and that I can't explain it, but but that's that's
Speaker 1: just what it is. And so it might have been that,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly. It might have been the current.
Speaker 1: She could have just been like nervous and uncomfortable. I mean,
Speaker 1: if this was her first time really in the ocean
Speaker 1: scuba ying. Yeah, gave at one point, I ever heard
Speaker 1: a statement somewhere he suggested that instead of trying to
Speaker 1: get back up to the entry line, they just go
Speaker 1: straight up. And apparently but she wanted to get back
Speaker 1: to the line. He's stilly point she had in her
Speaker 1: brain apparently where Yeah, and uh, I think it's it's white.
Speaker 1: I think she probably wasn't nervous because her dive computer.
Speaker 1: They one of the things that police did is they
Speaker 1: they seized the dive computers from Gabe Antina. They took
Speaker 1: them into Casto because you can download all the information
Speaker 1: on those things. And also they grabbed Wade Singleton's computer
Speaker 1: too and downloaded his information. And apparently it her dive
Speaker 1: computer did record much higher than normal use of air.
Speaker 1: So that's what happens when you're scuba diving and you're, yeah,
Speaker 1: breathing way too fast. So apparently she was pretty scared
Speaker 1: and nervous and sorry, I was in visible, I mean,
Speaker 1: was he did he have visibility towards the couple or
Speaker 1: I don't think he was with us to him at
Speaker 1: this point in time, but he was, he was somewhere
Speaker 1: not too far away, because again he he did sort
Speaker 1: of like, you know, was Johnny on the spot when
Speaker 1: she finally went down. But I'm getting ahead of myself
Speaker 1: there though. But but they were I think at this
Speaker 1: point kind of like not really visible to anybody because
Speaker 1: I was ge getting limited visibility in the water there.
Speaker 1: And according to Gabe, they started, he took her hand
Speaker 1: and they started swimming together back up against the current
Speaker 1: towards the line. He said it was tough going because
Speaker 1: of the current. And then they paused at one point
Speaker 1: and she apparently was getting negatively buoyant, and so he
Speaker 1: pointed towards the button on the BCD, the buoyancy compensation device,
Speaker 1: and you hit that button and it will push air
Speaker 1: into that and make it more positively buoyant. So he
Speaker 1: indicated that to her, and he said it looked to
Speaker 1: him like she was actually hitting the button, but nothing
Speaker 1: was happening. It wasn't changing her status at all. So
Speaker 1: at that point, well it was time to continue on.
Speaker 1: He grabbed her, I think by the shoulder of her
Speaker 1: harness this time, and started heading back towards line again. Well,
Speaker 1: the thing about the b c D though, is it's
Speaker 1: not like the emergency raft on a boat that just
Speaker 1: goes and it's completely flow. It's a it's for making
Speaker 1: small adjustments, so you don't want it blasting huge quarity.
Speaker 1: So she's like pushing it, you know, tap tap tap tap,
Speaker 1: thinking why is this thing not inflated? That would explain
Speaker 1: why they're not getting the reaction that they expect. That
Speaker 1: could have been it. But but anyway, he headed on
Speaker 1: back to the line some more, and he said, at
Speaker 1: this point in time she was getting heavier. It seemed
Speaker 1: like she was like no longer swimming and she was
Speaker 1: just sort of hanging vertically underneath him as opposed to
Speaker 1: horizontally swimming. Next it looked like yeah, at that point
Speaker 1: they stopped. He still had hold of her, and apparently
Speaker 1: she panicked and thrashed around and knocked his his respirator
Speaker 1: out of his mouth. And knocked his mask off, ESQ
Speaker 1: on his face and shows it with water and it
Speaker 1: was his mask fills with water. He so he likes,
Speaker 1: let's go over and it pulls his mask back into place,
Speaker 1: and then he has to like blow some air out
Speaker 1: through his nose to clear the mask. And then he's
Speaker 1: got to find his his respirator and it's like floating
Speaker 1: off somewhere he can't see out of his vision, but
Speaker 1: they've got a backup that's also on the bc D.
Speaker 1: So he grabs that sticks out in his mouth and
Speaker 1: then he looks and while Tina is Tina has floated downwards.
Speaker 1: He's just sinking. She's now sinking downwards slowly. He said
Speaker 1: that she was sinking looking up at him with her
Speaker 1: arms out stretched towards him, but not really doing anything,
Speaker 1: not really not kicking or screaming or fighting or doing
Speaker 1: anything like you would expect somebody to do in a
Speaker 1: situation like that. Uh. And he said at this point
Speaker 1: that what he did is he upbended himself. And and
Speaker 1: of course I didn't mention that. I don't think he
Speaker 1: had been actually hitting his bc D and inflating it
Speaker 1: for the drag and uh. And so he upbends himself
Speaker 1: and tries to swim down after her, and he said
Speaker 1: he couldn't make it to her. Possibly possibly, I'm not
Speaker 1: totally sure about how much that true or not. That's
Speaker 1: one of the parts of the story that really doesn't
Speaker 1: make sense. This is one of the things I ran
Speaker 1: past Austin into aquatic sports said, it said, does that
Speaker 1: make any sense to you at all, even if his
Speaker 1: bc D was totally inflated, that he couldn't get down
Speaker 1: to her, couldn't catch up with her. And he said, no,
Speaker 1: it makes absolutely no sense at all, even with an
Speaker 1: over inflated bc D. That's really weird that that he
Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to, you know, give a few kicks
Speaker 1: of his fins and get down to her. But according
Speaker 1: to him, he couldn't get to her, and so at
Speaker 1: that and he he had to make a decision. He's
Speaker 1: he thought, well, okay, I can keep going after he's
Speaker 1: going to hit bottom here eventually, and then I can
Speaker 1: catch up with her. But what happens if I hit
Speaker 1: bottom and for whatever reason, I can't raise her up
Speaker 1: off the bottom and get her to the surface. What
Speaker 1: happens then, Well, then I've got to take that much
Speaker 1: longer to get up a hundred feet versus fifty feet
Speaker 1: where I'm at about now. The think the greatest depth
Speaker 1: on his on his computer was at that day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so so his thinking was what he told the
Speaker 1: police later, was well, Okay, if I follow her all
Speaker 1: the way down, I can't get her up. It's gonna
Speaker 1: take me that much longer to get up to the
Speaker 1: surface to get help. And so, uh, maybe it's better
Speaker 1: if I turn and go for help now. And so
Speaker 1: that's what he said. He did as he turned, and
Speaker 1: he headed like not just up, but also towards the
Speaker 1: diver access point at the bow, where he says he said,
Speaker 1: there were a couple of divers hanging onto it at
Speaker 1: that and he went up and tap damaged and grabbed
Speaker 1: him and shook them and said and tried to gesture
Speaker 1: and make it clear that there was trouble and and
Speaker 1: all that stuff, and they just sort of looked at
Speaker 1: him like what Because yeah, I said that at least
Speaker 1: one of them was an Asian guy, and so maybe
Speaker 1: he didn't speak English well, And you know, I think
Speaker 1: it's their novices. They don't understand the hand signs because
Speaker 1: he's underwater at this point still. Yeah, Yeah, and that's
Speaker 1: he was just trying to tell you. It's just he
Speaker 1: was just trying to say, like, you know, he had
Speaker 1: no idea exactly who these divers were, and so the
Speaker 1: only identifying characteristics you can see is he can see
Speaker 1: a couple of Asian eyes looking at him through the
Speaker 1: that's out of the mask. And so that's about it
Speaker 1: as far as describing these people. And of course later
Speaker 1: on they identified a few Koreans that were on the
Speaker 1: jazz to who neither one of them actually remembered this incident,
Speaker 1: which was kind of didn't look so good for Gabe
Speaker 1: when it turns out it doesn't look that good. Uh
Speaker 1: So he gives up on trying to get them to help.
Speaker 1: So he goes he continues on upwards and when he
Speaker 1: gets there, he gets he yells at the boat and
Speaker 1: says his wife has gone down and she's in trouble.
Speaker 1: And the alarm goes up, and I guess on his
Speaker 1: radio people on the people on the boat start sitting
Speaker 1: up and getting ready to go down for a search
Speaker 1: and rescue. But as it happens, Wade Singleton comes along
Speaker 1: and notices somebody laying on the on the ocean floor
Speaker 1: next to the ship and thanks, yeah, exactly. Something a
Speaker 1: little hanky there, Yeah, something about her body language and
Speaker 1: the fact that she's not moving. So he goes over
Speaker 1: there and shakes her a little bit and nothing's going on.
Speaker 1: So he grabs her and hits her BCD button to
Speaker 1: inflate it as much as you and they head on up.
Speaker 1: They took about I think a minute and a half
Speaker 1: to ascend to it the hundred feet, which my understanding
Speaker 1: is that's kind of a breakneck pace to go up
Speaker 1: from a hundred feet for in scuba terms. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: but circumstances, univergency circumstances. But for Wade, you know, obviously
Speaker 1: for Tina at this point she was dead and not
Speaker 1: to give away the game, but oh well I already
Speaker 1: have so. But for him it was a risk that
Speaker 1: he there was a big risk, but he got her
Speaker 1: up there and they spent about forty minutes I think,
Speaker 1: trying to resuscitate her. The nearest boat was the Jazz Too,
Speaker 1: so they put they took her over to the Jazz Too,
Speaker 1: and it turns out there was there were a couple
Speaker 1: of doctors that happened to be just diving on the
Speaker 1: boat and they got it. They got them over there
Speaker 1: to help out with with some of this, and after
Speaker 1: everything they did, they gave up after about forty minutes.
Speaker 1: The game wasn't on that boat he was. He went
Speaker 1: to it. He ended up on a different boat. He
Speaker 1: ended up back on the spoil Sport. Yeah, he was
Speaker 1: back on the spoil Sports, standing in the stern of it.
Speaker 1: And a lot has been made of that, is that,
Speaker 1: you know, he was on the spoil Sport. His wife
Speaker 1: is on the Jazz and they're trying to resuscitate her.
Speaker 1: And what's he doing hanging out on the spoils board
Speaker 1: when she's over there and you know, dying apparently, and
Speaker 1: so well, you know that is a question. I guess, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but he did. I mean, he didn't know exactly where
Speaker 1: she was not And it's not as if they're going
Speaker 1: to say, quick, send the dinghy over, bring the distraught
Speaker 1: husband over so he can get in the way. Well
Speaker 1: we try to resuscitate this. Well, you know, I I
Speaker 1: don't know that that would be high on their list
Speaker 1: of things to do. Probably not, probably not. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: also think, yeah, if you have somebody who's distraught, you know,
Speaker 1: you're not necessarily going to say let's move this person.
Speaker 1: You're gonna say, let's try to keep this person here
Speaker 1: and calm, because if you try to move this person,
Speaker 1: you risk having more than one victim, you know, if
Speaker 1: he jumps in and like tries to swim there, but
Speaker 1: he's panicking, and what I mean, you just you have
Speaker 1: to minimize the victims. Yeah, and so so he's so
Speaker 1: that's what was going on. It didn't look so good
Speaker 1: from some people's points of view, I suppose, um, And
Speaker 1: there was there were a lot of different statements that
Speaker 1: were made, some of which are rather apocryphal. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: there were many things, many weird things. A lot of
Speaker 1: his story didn't make sense. And then there was you know,
Speaker 1: one of the local Australian police overheard him at that
Speaker 1: there was a body viewing at the corners, you know,
Speaker 1: they had to identify the body, and they left him
Speaker 1: with her body for a little while, and policemen overheard
Speaker 1: and mumbling to her, I'm so sorry, and I never
Speaker 1: meant to hurt you, and I shouldn't have kept taking
Speaker 1: you down and I'm sorry I couldn't stop it. That's
Speaker 1: what the police said. Gabe said to you, Tina's body,
Speaker 1: those all those statements go both ways. Yeah, let's talk
Speaker 1: about that in theories maybe yeah, maybe. Uh, And so
Speaker 1: that's where we're at. The it went on, it was
Speaker 1: originally classified as an unfortunate accident. There was of course
Speaker 1: an investigation anyway, but there was still classified as an accident.
Speaker 1: But then one of the divers actually that was on
Speaker 1: the boat, I remembered feeling a little at the at
Speaker 1: the time, feeling a little bit uneasy about the situation
Speaker 1: and thinking that that after he after talking directly to
Speaker 1: Gabe and hearing his story, feeling like that it just
Speaker 1: didn't make any sense. And when he got back to
Speaker 1: the States, he looked up Tina's father, Tommy Thomas, and
Speaker 1: uh and and they've ranged a little meeting and and
Speaker 1: he and this guy tells Tommy all the doubts that
Speaker 1: he had in his mind about this whole thing. And
Speaker 1: of course the Thomas family, they've they've been kind of
Speaker 1: wondering about this whole situation for a long time. Now
Speaker 1: this sort of gelled thinks for them, and they started
Speaker 1: this campaign to get the Australians to reopen the investigation. Eventually,
Speaker 1: so compressing a lot of stuff in a small amount
Speaker 1: of time. Uh, they did. They reinterviewed a lot of people,
Speaker 1: They had an inquest and everything, and they decided to
Speaker 1: indite Gabe for murder because the theory being that he
Speaker 1: had oh and I forgot about. There was another doctor,
Speaker 1: doctor Stutts, who also of course, this is sometimes time
Speaker 1: after the fact, when he was interviewed, he testified that
Speaker 1: he spotted Gabe and Tina underwater. He because he followed
Speaker 1: them into the water. Later he saw them and he
Speaker 1: was Gabe was holding Tina in a bear hug. The
Speaker 1: bear hug, and so that the police's theory is that
Speaker 1: he grabbed her, cranked off her air supply and basically
Speaker 1: held her that bear hug so that she couldn't get
Speaker 1: to the surface or do anything. And then once she
Speaker 1: had died and drowned and everything, he turned her air
Speaker 1: supply back on so everything would look okay, and let
Speaker 1: her just drop and concocted this whole ludicrous story about
Speaker 1: how it was all a horrible accident when he had
Speaker 1: actually murdered her. And by the way, it turns out,
Speaker 1: there was some life insurance money involved. Uh yeah, a
Speaker 1: decently large amount. According to Tina's dad. She said that
Speaker 1: Not long before the wedding, she had told him that
Speaker 1: the Gabe wanted to her to increase the amount of
Speaker 1: her life insurance and also make him to be the
Speaker 1: beneficiary of it. Well, they were about to be may
Speaker 1: so the beneficiary thing makes sense, it kind of does. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, maybe the increases makes sense too, Yeah, it might. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean there's a there's a whole bunch of reasons
Speaker 1: to change it. I mean, I don't know what his
Speaker 1: reasonings were. But again, this is one of those things
Speaker 1: can be very innocent or very very it can look
Speaker 1: kind of bad. I think. Yeah, I think the way
Speaker 1: it was set up is where she was working, and
Speaker 1: I used to have a job that was like this.
Speaker 1: You could get the minimum basically employer paid, you get
Speaker 1: the minimum life insurance. And that's what she was doing.
Speaker 1: And he's he just said, well, you know, it doesn't
Speaker 1: cost that much in premiums. You know you should bump
Speaker 1: that up, you know, you really should. It doesn't cost
Speaker 1: all that much and you know a lot of Huger
Speaker 1: benefit out of the whole thing. And uh so, I
Speaker 1: don't know that he actually pressured her. If he just
Speaker 1: sort of set it off and one day you know,
Speaker 1: you ought to you ought to increase that it wouldn't
Speaker 1: cost you that much. And uh so, I don't know
Speaker 1: exactly how Again that we have Tina's father for this,
Speaker 1: and that Tina never as far as I don't know,
Speaker 1: she never told anybody else about this, so we only
Speaker 1: have his word for the whole thing. Turns out that
Speaker 1: the but you know, the life insurance did actually play
Speaker 1: a role in the prosecution. This is in Australia. Yeah, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so this is the Australian prosecution which is now charging
Speaker 1: him with murder. Is still we haven't even got two theories.
Speaker 1: This is what happens. Yeah, this is what happened. And
Speaker 1: I'm compressing as much as I can. And this story
Speaker 1: is pretty huge actually, um it was a huge sensation,
Speaker 1: especially in Australia, but even it generated some news up
Speaker 1: here too in the States. But it turns out the
Speaker 1: policy it was worth about thirty three bucks, so that
Speaker 1: was a lot. Yeah yeah, annual salary. Yeah essentially, um so,
Speaker 1: and Gabe was not the beneficiary of It's hard to
Speaker 1: say if that was a sufficient motive or not. It
Speaker 1: sounds like not to me, but that did play a
Speaker 1: part in the prosecution's reasoning that was that was the
Speaker 1: motive for doing that. He was mad that he wasn't
Speaker 1: with beneficiary. No, that maybe he was mistakenly believing that
Speaker 1: may mistakenly believed that she hadn't had jacked up the
Speaker 1: amount and had made him the beneficiary, but he was
Speaker 1: too careless apparent to check before they left for that
Speaker 1: that would be a jacked up amount for me, Like
Speaker 1: I had the similar situation as you were talking about
Speaker 1: that my employer pays a certain amount and it's not
Speaker 1: thirty three a year, but I don't know. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't I have a definite amount that
Speaker 1: I will murder somebody for not thirty three now sorry
Speaker 1: yeah now. And by the way, you guys haven't meaning
Speaker 1: to talk to you about life insurance. So he he is,
Speaker 1: he is convicted in Australia. They knocked at that essentially
Speaker 1: negotiated a plea for manslaughter. So he returned voluntarily to
Speaker 1: Australia to stand trial for the charges and basically agreed
Speaker 1: to plead guilty to manslaughter and was sent to like
Speaker 1: a year in prison and then it was linked in
Speaker 1: to about a year and a half because the family
Speaker 1: was upset, and that Thomases were upset. He spent a
Speaker 1: year and a half. He spent yeah, a certain amount
Speaker 1: of time and in Australian prison, and eventually was after
Speaker 1: he got out, he was deported and sent back to
Speaker 1: the States, and the Australians said, meanwhile, I mean, a
Speaker 1: lot of the investigation actually had been uh what's the
Speaker 1: word I'm thinking of here at the ages of Alabama police.
Speaker 1: Essentially somebody and the behest of the Tommy Thomas, got
Speaker 1: in touch with the local police in Alabama and spelled
Speaker 1: the whole thing out to them, and so and so
Speaker 1: they had actually gone the Alabama police lit a fire
Speaker 1: under the Australians a little bit. She end up interests
Speaker 1: over there, gotten their conviction. Now he's back. They want
Speaker 1: to try him from murder here in the States, which
Speaker 1: in their theory was, well, this looks like a coldly calculated,
Speaker 1: well planned out murder, so he must have planned this
Speaker 1: back here in Alabama, therefore we can prosecute it from murder,
Speaker 1: even though it took place halfway around the world. So
Speaker 1: they were planned. They were they were going to take
Speaker 1: him to trial and try to convict to the murder. Uh,
Speaker 1: and apparently the judge threw it all out. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: had no case. Yeah, essentially, the judge said, what are
Speaker 1: you doing here? You've got no case. Okay, So that's
Speaker 1: where it is. Uh. Gabe has since remarried. His new
Speaker 1: wife is not dead. She do look a lot like Tina.
Speaker 1: Well that's not surprised, and we all have a type. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not. It's true that out there, just because I
Speaker 1: see it everywhere. People just get excited over that. In
Speaker 1: that first date though, and it's like, oh, you've ever
Speaker 1: been married? Oh yeah, she died. What happened? Oh she
Speaker 1: died in our honeymoon. Everybody thinks I killed her. I didn't,
Speaker 1: I swear they but they called me the honeymoon killer
Speaker 1: just so you know. But apparently they made it past
Speaker 1: that little hump and wind up getting married and she's still,
Speaker 1: like I said, still alive. Uh So that's about. That's
Speaker 1: about it. There's a lot more out there if you
Speaker 1: want to do more research on our little mystery. There's
Speaker 1: tons of stuff out there. It's time for us to
Speaker 1: get into theories. But before we do that, let us
Speaker 1: take a really brief break. Take a look at me now,
Speaker 1: the rufous leaking. I'm just standing here. Oh think twice.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Another day in paradise. I
Speaker 1: believe in me is easy. I can feel it coming
Speaker 1: in the air tonight. This must be love. I missed again.
Speaker 1: Tomorrow never knows. Do you know what any of that means? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean neither. You should probably pick up a copy
Speaker 1: of Not Dead Yet by Phil Collins so he can
Speaker 1: explain it, or better yet, why don't you get it
Speaker 1: from Audible and let him read the book himself? I mean,
Speaker 1: who doesn't love to just sit around and listen to
Speaker 1: that guy all day? Yeah, well there is the past,
Speaker 1: Mrs Collins, But that's just not fair. So go to Audible.
Speaker 1: Audible just launched the first ever Binge listening event, and
Speaker 1: you are invited to binge on great listens and big
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Speaker 1: Learn more at audible dot com slash binge. Okay, we're back,
Speaker 1: Time to talk about theories. They're essentially three series here.
Speaker 1: Uh one is well murder, that's the prosegation theory. He
Speaker 1: killed her. Then. It's not surprising to me that some
Speaker 1: people were a little suspicious because a lot of parts
Speaker 1: of gabe story really didn't actually make a lot of sense,
Speaker 1: Like the part about not being able to catch up
Speaker 1: with her when she was sinking underwater. I mean that
Speaker 1: that that didn't make a huge amount of sense to me.
Speaker 1: Of course, as you know, it is awfully suspicious about
Speaker 1: the insurance policy thing and wanting her to bump up
Speaker 1: the the amount and all that stuff. Of course we
Speaker 1: know that really amounts to nothing. There's also that talk
Speaker 1: about Gabe controlling personality that and so maybe after a
Speaker 1: week in Australia, maybe something or another cause gave to
Speaker 1: sort of think that, well, Tina is just a little
Speaker 1: wild stallion that will never be that will never be tamed,
Speaker 1: and so I gotta kill her, right right? Yeah? Or
Speaker 1: maybe she ferred with some handsome Australian dude and he
Speaker 1: went nuts with jealousy and decided to kill her. Yes,
Speaker 1: she met Paul Hogan. Yeah, you know. And I gotta
Speaker 1: say about about this part is that if he was
Speaker 1: a total control, controlling sort of person, you know, the manipulative,
Speaker 1: controlling whatever, and he found somebody that was willing to
Speaker 1: put up with that. I wouldn't I wouldn't have thought
Speaker 1: he would have killed her. Yeah, I mean, yeah, like
Speaker 1: that's a fine. Another another thing is the battery malfunction
Speaker 1: is diet computer. Again, what we talked about the fact
Speaker 1: that he reversed the battery and but it was beeping
Speaker 1: before and I was working. Well, apparently the prosecution didn't
Speaker 1: actually trouble themselves to try to try to figure out
Speaker 1: exactly how the thing worked. Uh. Yeah, Actually, there's another
Speaker 1: website on that's out there. It's got a fantastic about
Speaker 1: of information about this case. It's actually written by a
Speaker 1: professional diver, and he explains that all the whole battery thing.
Speaker 1: But apparently the prosecution made much of the state. They
Speaker 1: really said that that was part of their theory is
Speaker 1: that he wanted to murder or he planned it out
Speaker 1: and he faked a malfunction in his dive computer so
Speaker 1: that he could get her by herself and not go
Speaker 1: down with all those other divers. Well, then there's the
Speaker 1: you know, they also were figured he was doing something
Speaker 1: weird murder was guilty. Proof of his guilt was shown
Speaker 1: in the fact that he always got so upset about
Speaker 1: all the stuff on her grave site, all the flowers,
Speaker 1: and he kept hauling them away. Yeah, his family, her
Speaker 1: family would leave flowers there, and he would, he would.
Speaker 1: They kept disappearing. Somehow they chained him or started wiring
Speaker 1: him down, cabling him down and stuff and uh and
Speaker 1: and then they would still disappear. And they finally put
Speaker 1: a closer like a camera out there, and turns out
Speaker 1: and Gabe was busted. He was the one removing the flowers.
Speaker 1: But I don't think there's anything too that though, because
Speaker 1: he may have thought that it was highly disrespectful, because
Speaker 1: this is something I have friends that refer to the
Speaker 1: you know, like where there's an accident and people leave
Speaker 1: memorials and balloons and all of that, and then nobody
Speaker 1: takes that down and three or four weeks later it's
Speaker 1: well they call him. My friends refer to those is
Speaker 1: trash trees. Yeah, and so he may have said, you jerks,
Speaker 1: why are you turning my my dead wife's grave into
Speaker 1: a trash tree? That's it. Yeah, that's the thing. I
Speaker 1: don't know. It's like some of the stuff they left
Speaker 1: was plastic artificial flowers, which he thought were tacky, and
Speaker 1: and and as far as the other flowers, I don't
Speaker 1: know if he was removing fresh roses or if they
Speaker 1: were like a week old kind of dead looking. I
Speaker 1: don't know, Yeah, I really don't. But apparently, uh yeah,
Speaker 1: that lot, a lot was made of that. And I
Speaker 1: don't know what to make of it myself personally. But
Speaker 1: and there's also the fact maybe he just did it
Speaker 1: out of pure spite. And let's a lot of us,
Speaker 1: let's face it, we can be perfectly decent person and
Speaker 1: not murderers and still be kind of petty that happens.
Speaker 1: If that happened. Uh well, of course there was the
Speaker 1: other thing. The Asians on the on the entry line
Speaker 1: up at the bow. Uh yeah, that's two Koreans that
Speaker 1: he said, he's an You talk to a couple of
Speaker 1: Asian people. But when the police went back and interviewed everybody,
Speaker 1: the only Asian people that were out there that day
Speaker 1: didn't didn't remember any instant Okay, but nobody we're saying
Speaker 1: they interviewed and nobody remembered or just specifically, the two
Speaker 1: Koreans didn't remember because it's possible he mistook their race. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so did they ask everybody? Well, the way they want
Speaker 1: about the whole thing is they didn't necessarily track down
Speaker 1: like everybody from say the Jazz to they didn't. I
Speaker 1: think they tried. I think they got ahold of these Koreans.
Speaker 1: I think they might have interviewed them through via email.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think it was actually a one
Speaker 1: of them. I think that's suspicious. I just think it's
Speaker 1: not I think they didn't do their due diligence. That's
Speaker 1: entirely possible that they bungled out a little bit. It's
Speaker 1: also entirely possible that the Asians maybe at the time,
Speaker 1: this guy is all all disturbed and they're like, what
Speaker 1: the hell, dude, we want on vacation, leave us alone,
Speaker 1: and then afterwards they hear what happened. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: somebody drowned. That's what's her husband? Oh man, I feel
Speaker 1: really bad. And so maybe they were just kind of
Speaker 1: embarrassed to talk about this guy desperately needed our help
Speaker 1: and we blew them off. I feel kind of bad
Speaker 1: about that. So maybe I really don't know, or could
Speaker 1: have just been memory, because I don't think these people
Speaker 1: were contacted for quite some time after the actual drowning.
Speaker 1: It does seem like you would remember that. But again,
Speaker 1: it's so easy. I have friends who are friends with
Speaker 1: people and they said, oh, yeah, he's his mom's Chinese,
Speaker 1: and and that guy's like, no, I'm German, like German,
Speaker 1: but they think he's, you know, half of some sort
Speaker 1: of Asian descent. And I mean it identifying races just impossible. Well,
Speaker 1: it could have been that. It could have been to
Speaker 1: these people. They had their masks on. The masks were
Speaker 1: just clamped out a little too tight and was sort
Speaker 1: of pulling their face like this to make their lives
Speaker 1: kind of like like under pressure. Yeah, okay, but there's
Speaker 1: the whole hug. There's the doctor stuts in this testimony
Speaker 1: about the bear hug. So can we talk about that
Speaker 1: for a second, because that makes absolutely no sense. So
Speaker 1: I was I talked to a couple of people like
Speaker 1: you did, people I knew who could dive. And it
Speaker 1: takes like a dozen revolutions of the knob on a
Speaker 1: tank to turn it all the way off and then
Speaker 1: back on. And it's yeah, and it's not an easy
Speaker 1: thing to do because it is under pressure. So It's
Speaker 1: not like your faucet, you know in your garden, where
Speaker 1: you just each reach reach and it just turns. No,
Speaker 1: you've got to put some force into it. It would
Speaker 1: have taken him a good little bit to do that
Speaker 1: in a bear hug scenario. Yeah, probably would have. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, wouldn't also her censor have her computer have
Speaker 1: shown that if she had just stopped consuming air for
Speaker 1: a little while, You would think it would have shown that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: or the well, I don't know, how are you getting at,
Speaker 1: would have shown that the air going through the regulator
Speaker 1: was reduced. Is that what you're getting at? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess it would have shown like a decrease, right, Well,
Speaker 1: I'm sure, Well it did show a decrease because she
Speaker 1: stopped breathing, But I don't I don't know that it
Speaker 1: would have been able to distinguish that decrease being because
Speaker 1: the valve was turning. I don't think it would record
Speaker 1: that kind of content now, and it wouldn't, I don't
Speaker 1: think now. But and those things don't record everything, especially
Speaker 1: this is two thousand three. It's hard, it's hard to remember,
Speaker 1: but actually storage was not as as easy and tiny
Speaker 1: as it is today. It's amazing what we get into
Speaker 1: a tiny little card these days. Thousand and three was
Speaker 1: a little different. Yeah, yeah, definitely was different. So are
Speaker 1: there more suspicious things here? See? What we had the
Speaker 1: bear hug, and there was the fact that she became
Speaker 1: amazingly negatively boy and all of a sudden, which you know,
Speaker 1: that's that's actually there. There there are some people who
Speaker 1: wanted if Gabe actually deliberately overweighted her. I have another
Speaker 1: question about this because I'm not a diver, and I
Speaker 1: think a lot of our listeners are not divers. So
Speaker 1: she put weights in her pockets in her vest, and
Speaker 1: were those pockets it? Basically the question is is could
Speaker 1: they not have just unzipped the pocket and taken the
Speaker 1: weight out? Yeah? Well I was asking Austin about that,
Speaker 1: and he said that it's when you're actually out there,
Speaker 1: it's kind of hard to do. When you get your
Speaker 1: tanks on and everything, it's kind of hard to get
Speaker 1: to those pots. But somebody else couldn't have Gabe couldn't
Speaker 1: have done that for her, not if she was in
Speaker 1: a panic. Yeah, I mean, you know, if you've ever
Speaker 1: have you ever seen anybody gets suited up to dive
Speaker 1: if they need assistance. They're standing there and you're kind
Speaker 1: of arms a bit at your side, and you're lumbering
Speaker 1: around and they are getting to everything, and it is
Speaker 1: then hard to get out of yourself because remember, she's
Speaker 1: in a wet suit. That's why I'm a king, That's
Speaker 1: that was one of the things I was I was
Speaker 1: wondering too. The same thing was how easy is it
Speaker 1: to grab those weights and chuck them lighten yourself up
Speaker 1: a little bit? It is easy if she had been
Speaker 1: wearing a weight belt. If she had a belt, then
Speaker 1: you because I've known people who have been underwater and
Speaker 1: was it a seed? He turned around and there was
Speaker 1: a seal and he wasn't expecting and it was like
Speaker 1: inches away from his face. He scared the holy crap
Speaker 1: on him and he just popped a belt and shout
Speaker 1: towards the surface because it just freaked him out because
Speaker 1: he wouldn't have been able to do that had he
Speaker 1: stucked him into if he had a vest on at
Speaker 1: the time. And again depends on equipment. It depends it,
Speaker 1: does you know? I know Wade Wade Singleton actually dropped
Speaker 1: his belt that day when he when he had to
Speaker 1: get up off the floor. There he dropped his belt,
Speaker 1: so but that's a different outfit, and that I think
Speaker 1: Gabe did say something about not being able to You know,
Speaker 1: it would have been great if he could have if
Speaker 1: she had been wearing a belt, he could have dropped
Speaker 1: the belt and that would have helped things. But he
Speaker 1: wasn't able to do that. And the next step after
Speaker 1: that is to chuck everything, which is problematical too, because
Speaker 1: then what you gotta do is you gotta go straight
Speaker 1: up to the surface, and that's got his issues. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: and if he dropped all of her equipment, they would
Speaker 1: have had to have been in the buddy scenario sharing
Speaker 1: a breather the regulator, or if he had figured out
Speaker 1: where his original regulator was floating around him, then they
Speaker 1: could have both used them. But he apparently didn't have
Speaker 1: the wear with all to do that. Yeah, and it
Speaker 1: turns out to you he found I didn't find out
Speaker 1: till later when he was cleaning it that the mouth
Speaker 1: pieces has actually been knocked off of it, so it
Speaker 1: wasn't really usable anyway. Yeah, and I don't know what
Speaker 1: exactly that happened, might have been in the incident when
Speaker 1: it got knocked out of off his face, and out
Speaker 1: of his mouth. Another thing that was really kind of
Speaker 1: suspicious was his claim that he was unable to die
Speaker 1: fast enough to catch her, which we've talked about. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean from the prosecution's point of view, you know,
Speaker 1: if you want to draw your wife, you wanted to
Speaker 1: spend some extra quality time at the bottom of the
Speaker 1: ocean drowning, Well, that's what you want to do, is
Speaker 1: let hers think and go and then just you know,
Speaker 1: come back later. And I still I'm not entirely able
Speaker 1: to make sense of his claim that he couldn't catch her.
Speaker 1: That does seem awfully strange. Remember that he is used
Speaker 1: to swimming in freshwater, Yeah, and when you are in saltwater,
Speaker 1: your buoyancy goes up. Yeah. So he may have been
Speaker 1: used to swimming down and expecting to make a certain
Speaker 1: speed and is not going as fast as he expects.
Speaker 1: So therefore was judging it saying there's no way I'm
Speaker 1: going to get there. Yeah, And again perception. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: there's also another explanation, which I'll talk about in one
Speaker 1: of my other theories. But another thing that was suspicious
Speaker 1: is this slow ascent after he left her. It took
Speaker 1: him like three minutes to get to take a top side.
Speaker 1: I think almost three minutes, although it's hard to say. Well,
Speaker 1: you know they were using his dive computer, and the
Speaker 1: dive computer goes in one minute increments, and so it
Speaker 1: could have been like, you know, just barely over too.
Speaker 1: It could have been two minutes five seconds and something
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, it does. It does look like from
Speaker 1: the asset it does look like he made a fairly
Speaker 1: rapid ascent. Again, you think in apparent situation like that,
Speaker 1: he would have just thrown all the cautions of the
Speaker 1: winds and just zipped up to the surfaces A S
Speaker 1: A P. I guess. Yeah, I don't know how recently
Speaker 1: he had taken the rescue class, but it hadn't It
Speaker 1: wasn't recent. Okay, Well, I know that you know on
Speaker 1: land first date thing that the number one thing they
Speaker 1: drill into you is like you have to put yourself first.
Speaker 1: You have to put yourself first. You have to make
Speaker 1: sure you do not become a victim as well. Right,
Speaker 1: And so if he was thinking, Okay, I gotta do
Speaker 1: this slow, I can't get the bends. I can't you know.
Speaker 1: Whereas whereas Wade Singleton, right is his name, who was
Speaker 1: a very experienced diver was confident in his skill to
Speaker 1: be able to make that ascent in an emergency situation dangerous, sure,
Speaker 1: but was more confident in his ability and frankly probably
Speaker 1: had done this dive a million times and knew where
Speaker 1: he was right because Gabe probably also was like, I
Speaker 1: don't know where I am. I don't know where anybody is.
Speaker 1: I can't get lost in the ocean if I just
Speaker 1: flail around and go someplace. And again, I don't necessarily
Speaker 1: want to defend it, but I do want to say
Speaker 1: that it's totally possible that in his brain he was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I have to and there was a stay calm that was,
Speaker 1: by the way, the fact that he did take a
Speaker 1: small break from his asset to talk to the Asian
Speaker 1: divers on the line at the access the access on
Speaker 1: the access, so that probably added to his time to
Speaker 1: his time up. As well as far as Wade goes,
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly Wade actually entered the water. He
Speaker 1: went out there in the boat with him, but he
Speaker 1: might have that they went in like a little less
Speaker 1: than ten minutes before before the whole disaster happened. Wade
Speaker 1: might have just like just actually entered the water just
Speaker 1: a minute before and then swimming down the boat, you know,
Speaker 1: and sees her gets her up. If you've only been
Speaker 1: underwater for a minute or two, then it's not nearly
Speaker 1: as serious as if you've been under a longer period
Speaker 1: of time. It's longer underwater, So maybe that's way. And again,
Speaker 1: you know, Gabe may have been inexperienced enough to not
Speaker 1: even be thinking about that, to be thinking like, oh,
Speaker 1: I've been under for you know, I need a lot
Speaker 1: of time to decompress. Versus Wade again, who is experienced
Speaker 1: and would have known my risk for my own personal
Speaker 1: injuries very well. Yeah, and they, Yeah, I'm sure when
Speaker 1: they they probably they probably teach you and die school.
Speaker 1: They're probably like you are towards cars, totally and totally.
Speaker 1: It's so way probably with experience new that you could
Speaker 1: really push the envelop a lot. No, that's about that.
Speaker 1: I've got to say that that there's been some We've
Speaker 1: we talked about the battery malfunction. I don't think that
Speaker 1: really counts. Dr Stutts. There was an interesting web page
Speaker 1: out there that I mentioned already. This guy actually looked
Speaker 1: at all the various data from dive computers, et cetera,
Speaker 1: and found out when doctor Stutts actually entered the water.
Speaker 1: It turns out that by the time he entered the water,
Speaker 1: Gabe was already kind of starting his way up from Tina,
Speaker 1: so there was no way. So there was actually no
Speaker 1: way if the guy saw anybody bear hugging anybody, he
Speaker 1: might have seen Wade bringing Tina up off the floor
Speaker 1: of the ocean. Maybe that's what he saw, but he
Speaker 1: could not actually have seen this bear hug if it
Speaker 1: was Gabe and Tina. But nonetheless, his testimony was accepted
Speaker 1: in court. But it looks to me like it's kind
Speaker 1: of questionable, the slow, the unable to dive fast. But
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that. That that that is kind of
Speaker 1: been explicable. But I don't think he murdered her because
Speaker 1: and here's why. Remember one, he didn't really have a
Speaker 1: strong motive, is that I can see, you know, unless
Speaker 1: and lest his motive was well, he wanted to go, like,
Speaker 1: you know, have his wife die on their honey, even tragically,
Speaker 1: so he could get a lot of sympathy and maybe
Speaker 1: write a book about it, or maybe a movie deal
Speaker 1: or something like that. Although that's very that's a long
Speaker 1: game that's that's not. That's not that's very very likely
Speaker 1: to backfire on you. Yeah, it's not. That's the reason
Speaker 1: I really don't think he murdered her. Besides the lack
Speaker 1: of motive, is that if you truly had killed her,
Speaker 1: then it would have made no sense for him to
Speaker 1: abandon her body underwater the way he did, because you
Speaker 1: know he would he should have brought her up. Remember
Speaker 1: the official theory that would make him the hero for
Speaker 1: at least instead of making him look like well, basically,
Speaker 1: it didn't make him look too good that he abandoned her,
Speaker 1: not at all. And remember the official theory of the
Speaker 1: prosecution is it gave shut off her air supply and
Speaker 1: held her on her until she drowned. And just a
Speaker 1: quick thing, just for anybody who doesn't know that, I've
Speaker 1: thought about this, and I know somebody's gonna ask, well,
Speaker 1: could he have just kinked the air hose, you know,
Speaker 1: like you do with the garden hose, But you can't.
Speaker 1: Those hoses are super dense, They're they're made to not
Speaker 1: do that. Yeah, I wonder why, because it's kind of
Speaker 1: important they don't do that. Yeah, I mean, I guess
Speaker 1: he could have grabbed the grabbed the regulator out of
Speaker 1: her mouth or the respirator and just pulled it, pulled
Speaker 1: her away from her and just like not giving it back,
Speaker 1: and she would have drowned maybe, but nonetheless, no matter
Speaker 1: how you kind of if he deliberately murdered her by
Speaker 1: drowning her, then there's no reason not to bring her up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's already got her. She's already dead. She's not gonna
Speaker 1: like squeal or anything like that. And it certainly would
Speaker 1: have made him look better, a lot better, because abandoning
Speaker 1: your your die buddy is a huge deal. I mean,
Speaker 1: Wade Singleton said, remember him, said that he thought that
Speaker 1: Gabe should have been prosecuted for that alone, just abandoning her,
Speaker 1: even if he didn't kill her, she should have been
Speaker 1: prosecuted for that. Um. And so yeah, that's so that's
Speaker 1: why I don't believe that murder is is the correct
Speaker 1: area here. I don't think the Gabe actually was the
Speaker 1: honeymoon killer. Agreed, Yeah, um. And so the next theory,
Speaker 1: of course, is that it was all an accident. Gave
Speaker 1: was pretty much telling the truth, you know, so Tina
Speaker 1: loses it, which is entirely possible. Not the first time,
Speaker 1: it's she's a total novice, and it's a self fulfilling prophecy.
Speaker 1: If she had just remained calm, I bet things would
Speaker 1: have been just fine. And so, you know, one thing
Speaker 1: about Tina that we haven't talked about is in the
Speaker 1: paperwork that she had to fill out with the dive company,
Speaker 1: it said do you have any heart conditions? She said no,
Speaker 1: which was a lie. She did she did having a
Speaker 1: resumet that had been corrected with surgery I think just
Speaker 1: a couple of years before. Yeah, so that that's like,
Speaker 1: that's a that's a something that they would not be
Speaker 1: too comfortable with and would have put her under even
Speaker 1: more scrutiny. They might not have let her dive, is
Speaker 1: the way that I understood it. So the fact that
Speaker 1: she ignored it makes me think that she may have
Speaker 1: brought some of it on herself. Good thing. I mean,
Speaker 1: the cause of death was officially drowning. There was no
Speaker 1: evidence of any sort of heart attack or anything like that,
Speaker 1: but you never know, I mean maybe here kicked in
Speaker 1: again or something. Yeah, it would have been more of
Speaker 1: a panic attack, which if she had a heart condition,
Speaker 1: may have made it even worse in her mind. Oh God,
Speaker 1: I'm having a heart attack and she's freaking out, and yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know, I mean the thing is that she's yes,
Speaker 1: she's got air, she's got a regulator in her mouth.
Speaker 1: But if she's freaking out and she starts yelling, that's
Speaker 1: when all the water gets in, and that's why she
Speaker 1: would drown or she hypervatolites and sort of kind of
Speaker 1: passes out. Yea, that that'll do it. Yeah. So again,
Speaker 1: if she had just been a little calmer about things,
Speaker 1: it probably would have been good, I think, Gabe. And
Speaker 1: that's not a judge. I know that what you said,
Speaker 1: that is not a judgment on anyway on Tina. So
Speaker 1: anybody listening to its. Sometimes we say these things get misperceived.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a very scary alien environment. It's scary.
Speaker 1: I was I was just remembering that. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: I've never been scoop diving or even snorkeling really because
Speaker 1: I don't like water in my face. Um no, it's fine,
Speaker 1: I don't. But I remember watching the videos for the
Speaker 1: Ben McDaniels thing, and even just watching the YouTube videos,
Speaker 1: and you know, I it was a little unsettling too much. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was still that was too much. Yeah, no, I
Speaker 1: like that. I like the whole in the water thing.
Speaker 1: But that's just me, you know. I mean, but even
Speaker 1: I you know, I've done the snorkeling, and I've done
Speaker 1: other fun stuff in the water, but you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure what would happen if I was down there
Speaker 1: fifty feet and maybe I would lose it too, I
Speaker 1: don't know. But it's and similarly, you don't know what
Speaker 1: you would do if your dive partner were doing that thing, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, or what I would do if my
Speaker 1: dive partner put me to show my air. What am
Speaker 1: I saying? Yeah, So we pretty much agree it was
Speaker 1: not just an accident in the way that gave Well, no,
Speaker 1: it could have been an accident, I mean, but not
Speaker 1: the way that Gabe represented it. I actually, I actually
Speaker 1: think that it may very well have been exactly the
Speaker 1: way he reped presented it. It is just that they
Speaker 1: were both so inept at the handling the situation that
Speaker 1: they literally their combined actions was her cause of death.
Speaker 1: I think so, because, I mean, they didn't need to
Speaker 1: fight the current to try to get back to the
Speaker 1: access point. They could have just gone straight up. How
Speaker 1: long is the how long is it. What's the distance
Speaker 1: from access point to access point? Joe, It's about a
Speaker 1: hundred hundred. Yeah, it's not it's not a huge especially
Speaker 1: when you're already in a moving current. Yeah, they could
Speaker 1: have Actually it might have been faster to just swim
Speaker 1: downstream and easier. Yeah, or or the alternative is just
Speaker 1: go straight up. Yeah, but and so that might have
Speaker 1: compounded the situation by trying to go back there again.
Speaker 1: And just to pause here for a second to talk
Speaker 1: about the fact that everyone's like, okay, it was super
Speaker 1: domineering and blah blah blah. It sounds like he just
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, okay, Tina, we're going to do what
Speaker 1: you want to do. He you know, in a situation
Speaker 1: where you're kind of a jerk, super dom sneering, aren't
Speaker 1: you going to be No, if this is the right way,
Speaker 1: you're not gonna say Okay, we're going to say you know,
Speaker 1: you're not gonna say I mean, it sounds like kind
Speaker 1: of what he was thinking was, all right, what she
Speaker 1: wants to do is going to be the best way
Speaker 1: to calm her. We're going to do what she wants
Speaker 1: to do. Let's go do this. Even though he may
Speaker 1: or may not have known it was the wrong call. Yeah,
Speaker 1: its like considered that to be the right call. You
Speaker 1: gotta remember too, that at this point, I mean, he
Speaker 1: might not have even been aware that this is a
Speaker 1: total life in this situation. Probably might I just said, well,
Speaker 1: she's wagging out a little bit. We're going to get
Speaker 1: her back to the line she wants. She gets your
Speaker 1: hand on the line, she'll calm down and she'll relax,
Speaker 1: you know, And that he's probably, at least initially, it's
Speaker 1: possible that he thought, hey, she'll she'll be fine. We'll
Speaker 1: just get her back to the line and she'll settle down. Well,
Speaker 1: I didn't work out that way, but so I would
Speaker 1: not say that this is totally beyond the realm of possibility.
Speaker 1: But there's one word theory. I like the theory, which
Speaker 1: is that Gabe did not murder her. It was an
Speaker 1: act to that. But he's also not quite telling the
Speaker 1: truth about the whole thing. A show me, show me
Speaker 1: what you got here. Yeah, it statements to the police
Speaker 1: which I read. I read his entire well, not everything,
Speaker 1: I read his entire October twenty three statement. There's a
Speaker 1: transcript out there, and I send you guys a link
Speaker 1: to that. Did you guys read that? Yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's there's a lot there. There's a lot there, and
Speaker 1: it's hard to read, um, you know, And not not
Speaker 1: because I'm semi literally or anything like that, but just
Speaker 1: because of the way it's been transcribed and the way
Speaker 1: he speaks doesn't really translate to the written page very well.
Speaker 1: I'm told that the video of it is actually much
Speaker 1: much better for understanding what he's saying. And there are
Speaker 1: transcription heres as well, which doesn't help. But his statements
Speaker 1: to the police indicated he thought that Tina was experience
Speaker 1: and I was stress and anxiety and maybe even panic.
Speaker 1: But what if it wasn't heard that lost it. What
Speaker 1: if it was Gabe who lost it? And so what
Speaker 1: if Tina didn't actually knock his masks and respirator off
Speaker 1: of his face. What if he panicked and locked knocked
Speaker 1: hers off of her face and she drowned. What if
Speaker 1: that help He clocked her in the head and she
Speaker 1: was semi conscious and therefore drowned because of that, And
Speaker 1: and it might be that And I'm not a note
Speaker 1: nocastic expersions on anybody. Anybody can again lose it and
Speaker 1: just panic a little bit and cause something like this
Speaker 1: accidentally and maybe not want to fess up to it.
Speaker 1: So you're saying something is effective. He freaks out, He
Speaker 1: accidentally swings and and clobbers are in the head, and
Speaker 1: that's what then starts the whole dropping clawbers here in
Speaker 1: the head, knocks her mask and respirator off her off
Speaker 1: of her face. But her mask and her mask was
Speaker 1: in place, wasn't it. You could have gotten it back
Speaker 1: into place and her masking its respirator and respirator were
Speaker 1: in place. Yes, but not. But even even leaving that aside,
Speaker 1: he might have panicked also. Well, I guess one question
Speaker 1: would be then on this theory is why why was
Speaker 1: it that her oxygen consumption was so much higher? And
Speaker 1: it seems it sounds like his was fairly normal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I mean higher higher than what it experienced diver
Speaker 1: would use, right, but not, I mean it sounds like
Speaker 1: hers was really high. Yeah. So, like, I mean that
Speaker 1: feeds into the theory that she was the one freaking
Speaker 1: out in hyperventilating, not him. But she's breathing shallow and fast.
Speaker 1: He's breathing deep and hard. Yeah. But yeah, but but
Speaker 1: when you look at it this way, if you if
Speaker 1: you think that that Gabe actually had a panic attacked,
Speaker 1: and even if he didn't knock the mask up her face,
Speaker 1: if he was the one who was really panicking, or
Speaker 1: maybe they both were panicking. One of the things one
Speaker 1: of the anxieties that he said that he had was
Speaker 1: well that the current was super strong, which I think
Speaker 1: is what's the big deal. They're on drift dive, but
Speaker 1: they just have to drift down the length of the boat.
Speaker 1: And he also was talking about to the police again
Speaker 1: said well they were they lost sight of the of
Speaker 1: the entry rope on the bow, and they he knew
Speaker 1: that there was an exit line on the stern of
Speaker 1: the ship, but that was as far as he was concerned.
Speaker 1: That was a hundred miles away. That was well, but
Speaker 1: as far as but I was at hadder meters away maybe,
Speaker 1: but obviously it wasn't visible. It wouldn't be visible for
Speaker 1: a while. He expressed some anxiety about not being able
Speaker 1: to see it and maybe missing it and being swept
Speaker 1: out to see. So I don't think this is a
Speaker 1: rational concern personally. I mean it is in a sense,
Speaker 1: but at the same time it would be it would
Speaker 1: actually be very easy to find that thing. All you
Speaker 1: gotta do is stay over the ship at that on
Speaker 1: that on that day, the current was not parallel to
Speaker 1: the ship. It was actually about ten degrees off according
Speaker 1: to what I've heard. So if you stayed at the
Speaker 1: same point you entered right on the bow, stayed in
Speaker 1: that same exact point without moving a muscle, you would
Speaker 1: be blown off course enough that you probably would miss
Speaker 1: that line, because by my back of the envelope calculation,
Speaker 1: they would have missed it by about seventeen meters, which
Speaker 1: is just beyond the realm. Maybe they would have seen it,
Speaker 1: maybe not. But of course, at the same time, you
Speaker 1: know what to do. There's a huge ship underneath you.
Speaker 1: All you gotta do is kick your fins a little
Speaker 1: bit and get back over the ship the sent line
Speaker 1: of the ship, and boom, you're lined up for your
Speaker 1: exit line. So it seems like interrational. And again there's
Speaker 1: no way underwater. There's no way that Tina's somehow communicated
Speaker 1: this through body language, your sign language. He didn't communicate
Speaker 1: that to game. That wasn't anxiety. That was all his own,
Speaker 1: entirely his own. Also, by the way that they were
Speaker 1: there is mentioned also that the people at the dive
Speaker 1: company actually talked about what to do and how to
Speaker 1: signal them if you want beyond the exit movie. In fairness, though,
Speaker 1: the people at the dive company, we're supposed to have
Speaker 1: done a test dive with Tina. Fairness, Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: you know, so maybe they said they told them, and
Speaker 1: and in fairness to the dive company, you can tell
Speaker 1: somebody what to do, but that for them to pay
Speaker 1: attention and register and retain that use a whole another matter. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Another thing that makes me think that maybe Gave was
Speaker 1: in a state of panic is the part of the
Speaker 1: whole part. This is the part that truly doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1: It's what he's trying to chase Tina downward as she's
Speaker 1: sinking and he couldn't catch her, which makes utterly no
Speaker 1: sense to me or the experts I talked to. And
Speaker 1: again there was a whole question a well, was his
Speaker 1: bc D way over inflated? And well, if that was
Speaker 1: the case, if that was inhibiting his downward progress, then
Speaker 1: all he had to do was deflated He didn't apparently
Speaker 1: think to do it. Was what's his evidence to me
Speaker 1: that he wasn't thinking very clearly. Was that he was panicking,
Speaker 1: I don't know, And and at that point he turned
Speaker 1: around and just left again evidencely scared because maybe he
Speaker 1: already figured out the Tina was already dead and figured
Speaker 1: there's no sense of losing my own life trying to
Speaker 1: rescue her. Much kind of along in the same lines
Speaker 1: as although at the same time, I'm asking myself, well,
Speaker 1: was that really rational? Because you have a whole tank
Speaker 1: of air, we got attack of air, and if he
Speaker 1: swim down a little farther grabb her hauler up, you know,
Speaker 1: really what's the risk there. But let's also add to that, right,
Speaker 1: the fact that he had already had that misfire with
Speaker 1: his computer or computer computer, right, So he may have
Speaker 1: already been a little in a weird mindset of like, well,
Speaker 1: maybe this computer isn't a hundred accurate right now, right
Speaker 1: because I was having issues with it before. So maybe
Speaker 1: he's thinking, all right, I know, I definitely have enough
Speaker 1: to get on this you know, short little scuba trip.
Speaker 1: But maybe he's thinking, you know, he's already not thinking
Speaker 1: particularly clearly. He's probably panicking and thinking, oh my god. Also,
Speaker 1: what if my computer is telling me that I have
Speaker 1: a lot more air than I actually have. What if
Speaker 1: you know, something malfunctions, blah blah. He's already panicking, and
Speaker 1: then he's trying to get down and then he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I've obviously used way more air than I should have
Speaker 1: and oh my gosh, my computer. You know, just a
Speaker 1: huge panic of I mean, I agree that rationally above
Speaker 1: ground with no one no emotional trauma of watching your
Speaker 1: wife die. I'm sorry, on on ground above water to
Speaker 1: us sitting in a dry room without having just watched
Speaker 1: our wife die. You know, Yeah, of course he had
Speaker 1: air to get down there, and blah blah blah. But
Speaker 1: if he's panicking, he's having a panic attack, I think,
Speaker 1: not having not in his right mind, he it makes
Speaker 1: sense to just beat feed out of there. And uh,
Speaker 1: you know, and that's because you know, again, like you
Speaker 1: said to us, it looks it looks simplicity itself. He
Speaker 1: just swim down there, grabber hauled the surface. Alive or dead,
Speaker 1: at least you've got her. And he just turned and left,
Speaker 1: And I think that that's the sign again, and and
Speaker 1: and again. From where he went, he could have gone
Speaker 1: straight up insteady he goes back to the bow against
Speaker 1: the current, taking more time. Um, you know, every decision
Speaker 1: was kind of the wrong one, A lot of them,
Speaker 1: A lot of them were not rational. I don't think
Speaker 1: I think that he was. I think he was just panicking.
Speaker 1: Yeah he was. Yeah, And I think he lost it.
Speaker 1: And I think that's why his story doesn't quite make sense.
Speaker 1: It's because he's never wanted to fess up entirely to
Speaker 1: the fact that he just lost it. Well, here's a question.
Speaker 1: If he had a pank, did he lose his scuba license?
Speaker 1: Not that I know. So if he had admitted that
Speaker 1: he was incompetent, caused the death of someone and you know,
Speaker 1: basically just and everything, would he have lost it? Probably? Right? Maybe,
Speaker 1: But I'm not sure how at that point, how enthusiastic
Speaker 1: was about scuba anymore. Anyway, right, he might not have
Speaker 1: ever done scuba diving after that. And I gotta tell
Speaker 1: you that the whole thing of him saying I want
Speaker 1: a scuba dive and I want to go on boats,
Speaker 1: and you need to learn to do it with me
Speaker 1: as well, if you want to be with me. I
Speaker 1: mean it again is it's it's weird to me because
Speaker 1: he'd been diving for at this point ten years, uh
Speaker 1: seven years, seven years, and he had only in seven
Speaker 1: years logged fifty dives, and they were all like pool
Speaker 1: dives and little quarry dives, as if he was an
Speaker 1: avid diver, and this was going to always be his things,
Speaker 1: which is why I agree with Joe that it's so
Speaker 1: easy to see him freak out. Yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker 1: I was just going to say, it's to me, it's
Speaker 1: not that weird that he didn't go on. I mean,
Speaker 1: we don't know their financial situation. He probably couldn't afford.
Speaker 1: He lived in Alabama, right, It's not like there are
Speaker 1: a lot of really great dive spots in Alabama, right,
Speaker 1: as far as I know, I don't know. I'm sure
Speaker 1: they we'll find out. Alabama is actually close to the
Speaker 1: close to the Gulf of Mexico, so there's good diving
Speaker 1: down there. I hear close. But you know, depending on
Speaker 1: where in the state you are, it's financial situation, right,
Speaker 1: you know. So it may have been that he thought,
Speaker 1: all right, well, we're going to go someplace tropical for
Speaker 1: our honeymoon. I've always you know, I've been scooping for
Speaker 1: ten years. This is my chance to really get a great,
Speaker 1: nice dive in and obviously I want you to do
Speaker 1: that with me because you're my wife and I love you.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I guess they were years old, so yeah, Financially,
Speaker 1: it's not as if they would be super well off. Okay,
Speaker 1: now I'll retract a little ahead of my school. I mean,
Speaker 1: you can be at fifty and not be financially well
Speaker 1: off enough. I mean, well, you know, there's no stage
Speaker 1: of life where you can definitively say that person is
Speaker 1: definitely gonna be able to afford to go scuba diving. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm not exactly hurting for cash, but I gotta tell
Speaker 1: you it's just a matter of priorities. I mean, I
Speaker 1: could actually, if I actually I do, I could afford
Speaker 1: to travel halfway around the world and go scuba diving,
Speaker 1: not going to but you're also well there's that too, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I just you know, no matter what the age,
Speaker 1: there's always something better to spend the money on, buying
Speaker 1: a house and starting family. Yeah exactly. But you know,
Speaker 1: but there there could have been other repercussions too. I mean,
Speaker 1: I he might have felt at least partially responsible if
Speaker 1: he felt like he had done something to contribute to
Speaker 1: her death. Well, I think he did I mean that
Speaker 1: that body viewing comments, that seems like, well, obviously, obviously,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah he did in one way or another.
Speaker 1: But from a legal point of view, it's one thing
Speaker 1: to sort of say it wouldn't it be great to
Speaker 1: learn how to scuba dive, because that's sort of, you know,
Speaker 1: contributed to her death. But that's not something you can
Speaker 1: throw somebody in jail for. But there are the things
Speaker 1: that you could conceivably say, well, that's manslaughter, dude, you
Speaker 1: screwed up. You screwed up, and you can and you
Speaker 1: did this and this that contributed to her dying, and
Speaker 1: so you're gonna go to jail, so freaking out and stuff,
Speaker 1: and and you can see where he might finance his
Speaker 1: story a little bit to make himself look a little better,
Speaker 1: not only from the standpoint his self esteem, but also
Speaker 1: from a legal standpoint. I don't want to get arrested
Speaker 1: or whatever. So uh, that's kind of my theory there
Speaker 1: is that it was an accident, an unfortunate thing, but
Speaker 1: his behavior probably it wasn't entirely the best. And I'm
Speaker 1: not saying I would have been any better in that
Speaker 1: situation myself, but that's what I think most likely happened. Yeah,
Speaker 1: most likely. All right, so that's that story. Uh, next
Speaker 1: week finding Nemo. Yeah alright. Let me do a little
Speaker 1: housekeeping before we go here. Uh, you're a scuba diver.
Speaker 1: And by the way, I just want to say this.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I said it before. This die
Speaker 1: does not look that daunting to me. You know, it
Speaker 1: looks actually fairly easy. You know, it doesn't have a
Speaker 1: lot of fun. But I want to say if you're
Speaker 1: if you're one of these scuba diving types and you
Speaker 1: want to take issue with that, if you'd like to
Speaker 1: issue a challenge to me to go to Australia and
Speaker 1: do the dive, well I will accept that challenge absolutely.
Speaker 1: You throw down that gauntlet and your wallet and I
Speaker 1: will go to Australia and dive that wreck. Absolutely. And
Speaker 1: let me give you the way that you want to
Speaker 1: get a hold of me through our our email, which
Speaker 1: is Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. What or
Speaker 1: what else have we got? We've got a website, you
Speaker 1: know what those things are, right, Thinking sideways podcast dot
Speaker 1: com where you can find our episodes. We have an
Speaker 1: episode list out there. You can download and listen to
Speaker 1: our stuff on the website. We also have merch you
Speaker 1: can buy t shirts and mugs and all kinds of
Speaker 1: fun stuff. You can also find us on iTunes where
Speaker 1: you can subscribe, you can read us, you can review
Speaker 1: us a good review, please, we like those a lot better. Uh.
Speaker 1: There's streaming services. What do we got? Like Stitcher and
Speaker 1: god knows what else? There's yeah, all of them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's billions of them. Uh. And we're on social media,
Speaker 1: including Facebook. I don't know if you've heard of those
Speaker 1: guys are not apparently they're big. But we have a
Speaker 1: group and a page, so like the page, joined the group,
Speaker 1: and there's lots of fun stuff going on, lots of
Speaker 1: back and forth and commentary and stuff. It's a friendly group.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, there's no no flame wars. I
Speaker 1: think everybody's really nice. It's it's a great, great group.
Speaker 1: And I like our I like our listeners are great people. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then we're on Twitter thinking sideways to lead that
Speaker 1: g out and there we are. Uh. And we have
Speaker 1: a subreddit, Thinking Sideways that's on Reddit. If you haven't
Speaker 1: heard of those guys, well, do a google. That's R E.
Speaker 1: D D I T. We have a sub reddit and
Speaker 1: so go check it out and that's about it. Tell
Speaker 1: him next week. Uh, any final thoughts? You guys know,
Speaker 1: I was gonna make a swimming joke, but no, I
Speaker 1: got nothing. Yeah. I can't think of anything either, So
Speaker 1: alright to next week. Bye guys, Bye,