1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:19,436 --> 00:00:23,516 Speaker 2: Before we begin, a warning this episode contains material that 3 00:00:23,596 --> 00:00:25,956 Speaker 2: may be upsetting to some listeners. 4 00:00:27,476 --> 00:00:29,116 Speaker 1: What was tell me a little bit about what Owen 5 00:00:29,196 --> 00:00:29,516 Speaker 1: was like. 6 00:00:30,516 --> 00:00:37,636 Speaker 3: When Owen was born, he was screaming and his neck 7 00:00:37,756 --> 00:00:42,596 Speaker 3: veins were out, and the doctor said, this is a Viking. 8 00:00:43,596 --> 00:00:45,956 Speaker 3: And I think that's kind of the way he lived 9 00:00:45,996 --> 00:00:49,916 Speaker 3: a lot, you know, that kind of passion, So that's 10 00:00:49,956 --> 00:00:50,756 Speaker 3: the way he lived. 11 00:00:53,356 --> 00:00:56,996 Speaker 2: The man speaking is Tom Thomas. He's sitting with his wife, 12 00:00:57,076 --> 00:00:57,836 Speaker 2: Kathy Brewerly. 13 00:00:58,476 --> 00:00:59,196 Speaker 1: She's English. 14 00:00:59,716 --> 00:01:02,916 Speaker 2: Both she and Tom are United Church pastors. They met 15 00:01:02,916 --> 00:01:05,836 Speaker 2: when they were missionaries in Zambia. They have a son 16 00:01:05,916 --> 00:01:09,556 Speaker 2: named Morgan, and we're all at Morgan's house just outside 17 00:01:09,556 --> 00:01:14,396 Speaker 2: of Allentown, Pennsylvania, a bungalow in a tidy subdivision. There 18 00:01:14,396 --> 00:01:16,996 Speaker 2: are two little children running around at a big friendly 19 00:01:17,076 --> 00:01:20,516 Speaker 2: dog being big and friendly. Everyone has gathered to talk 20 00:01:20,556 --> 00:01:24,716 Speaker 2: about Owen, the Viking, the son and brother. Who isn't there. 21 00:01:34,116 --> 00:01:37,156 Speaker 2: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 22 00:01:37,396 --> 00:01:41,916 Speaker 2: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This episode is 23 00:01:41,916 --> 00:01:44,916 Speaker 2: about Owen Thomas, a young man I never had the 24 00:01:44,996 --> 00:01:48,516 Speaker 2: chance to meet, about what happened to him, and why 25 00:01:48,556 --> 00:02:02,316 Speaker 2: we shouldn't forget about it. I went to see Owen's 26 00:02:02,316 --> 00:02:04,276 Speaker 2: family on a cold winter evening. 27 00:02:04,836 --> 00:02:08,996 Speaker 4: We knew that he was kind of feeling down, feeling 28 00:02:09,196 --> 00:02:15,516 Speaker 4: depressed in the last well, what would you say, last 29 00:02:15,556 --> 00:02:16,236 Speaker 4: month or so. 30 00:02:16,476 --> 00:02:19,556 Speaker 5: I didn't know that, well, I didn't know he was depressed. 31 00:02:19,556 --> 00:02:20,516 Speaker 6: I knew he was stressed. 32 00:02:20,756 --> 00:02:24,396 Speaker 4: He was stressed. He was stressed. School, fine classes. 33 00:02:25,236 --> 00:02:28,996 Speaker 2: Owen went full out all the time at everything. His 34 00:02:29,156 --> 00:02:31,676 Speaker 2: older brother Morgan, says he couldn't keep up. 35 00:02:31,996 --> 00:02:33,356 Speaker 5: Yeah, so we were sort of like opposites. 36 00:02:33,396 --> 00:02:37,276 Speaker 6: I was real good at giving like eighty seventy five percent, 37 00:02:37,396 --> 00:02:39,996 Speaker 6: and he was not everything. But just like for example, 38 00:02:40,036 --> 00:02:43,796 Speaker 6: school schooling, he would not take anything less than a plus, 39 00:02:44,276 --> 00:02:45,116 Speaker 6: a a minus. 40 00:02:45,116 --> 00:02:48,356 Speaker 3: He was pissed as. 41 00:02:47,956 --> 00:02:50,636 Speaker 4: But now we don't know if he was having difficulty 42 00:02:50,716 --> 00:02:53,836 Speaker 4: remembering things because we never even asked We never asked 43 00:02:53,876 --> 00:02:57,596 Speaker 4: him that, we never we never even thought that there 44 00:02:57,636 --> 00:03:01,036 Speaker 4: might be anything cognitive. We just thought this was a 45 00:03:01,196 --> 00:03:03,916 Speaker 4: somebody who's a tight, a person who's kind of like 46 00:03:05,316 --> 00:03:06,876 Speaker 4: demanding so much of himself. 47 00:03:06,956 --> 00:03:10,196 Speaker 6: In retrospect, I guess when things like this happened in retrospect, 48 00:03:10,236 --> 00:03:11,956 Speaker 6: you can always try to look back and say, oh, 49 00:03:11,956 --> 00:03:14,116 Speaker 6: I should have seen this, I should have seen that. 50 00:03:17,636 --> 00:03:21,836 Speaker 4: But the Sunday night he called, he really sounded depressed. 51 00:03:21,916 --> 00:03:24,556 Speaker 4: Then he really did. 52 00:03:24,996 --> 00:03:25,956 Speaker 2: And you know, now you. 53 00:03:25,876 --> 00:03:28,356 Speaker 4: Look back, we should have just gotten the car gone 54 00:03:28,436 --> 00:03:28,876 Speaker 4: right down. 55 00:03:29,916 --> 00:03:31,916 Speaker 1: What did he talk about in that last car. 56 00:03:32,476 --> 00:03:35,156 Speaker 4: Well, it was it'd be my birthday, so he was 57 00:03:35,876 --> 00:03:38,356 Speaker 4: his wishing me happy birthday. Anna. What did you talk 58 00:03:38,356 --> 00:03:41,356 Speaker 4: to you about, Tom? He said, I'm failing everything. 59 00:03:41,396 --> 00:03:42,196 Speaker 1: That's what I say. 60 00:03:43,996 --> 00:03:46,956 Speaker 2: When I said at the beginning that we shouldn't forget 61 00:03:46,956 --> 00:03:51,276 Speaker 2: about Owen Thomas, I'm talking about this, that we shouldn't 62 00:03:51,276 --> 00:03:55,756 Speaker 2: forget that. He went from clarity and purpose to failing everything. 63 00:04:01,796 --> 00:04:05,356 Speaker 2: In twenty thirteen, I was invited to give a lecture 64 00:04:05,596 --> 00:04:08,436 Speaker 2: at the University of Pennsylvania Welcome. 65 00:04:09,236 --> 00:04:12,396 Speaker 7: It is my great pleasure on behalf of Penn's four 66 00:04:12,476 --> 00:04:16,076 Speaker 7: hundred and fifty Benjamin Franklin scholars to welcome you to 67 00:04:16,156 --> 00:04:18,756 Speaker 7: the twenty thirteen Benjamin Franklin Lectureship. 68 00:04:19,996 --> 00:04:22,476 Speaker 2: The talk was at a big auditorium at the Penn Museum. 69 00:04:23,156 --> 00:04:26,716 Speaker 2: I had been assigned a theme proof. That's obviously a 70 00:04:26,756 --> 00:04:28,956 Speaker 2: big topic. So I thought that this afternoon I would 71 00:04:28,996 --> 00:04:35,556 Speaker 2: start by asking a relatively simple question which is what 72 00:04:35,716 --> 00:04:38,916 Speaker 2: level of proof do we need about the harmfulness of 73 00:04:38,956 --> 00:04:43,556 Speaker 2: some activity before we act? I decided to tell the 74 00:04:43,596 --> 00:04:47,436 Speaker 2: story of a man named Frederick Hoffman, a remarkable man 75 00:04:48,036 --> 00:04:50,836 Speaker 2: born in eighteen sixty five in Germany immigrated to the 76 00:04:50,956 --> 00:04:54,836 Speaker 2: United States. Hoffmann rose to the position of senior statistician 77 00:04:55,196 --> 00:04:58,996 Speaker 2: at the Prudential Insurance Company. At the time, that was 78 00:04:59,036 --> 00:05:02,396 Speaker 2: a hugely important job. This was in the years before 79 00:05:02,476 --> 00:05:06,716 Speaker 2: Social Security or Medicare. Private insurers were the safety net, 80 00:05:07,476 --> 00:05:10,076 Speaker 2: and because they had to figure out what to charge 81 00:05:10,076 --> 00:05:13,596 Speaker 2: for life insurance premiums, they had to closely monitor the 82 00:05:13,636 --> 00:05:20,316 Speaker 2: health of Americans. And that was Hoffman's job. He set 83 00:05:20,356 --> 00:05:23,356 Speaker 2: out and he would cover the entire country and he 84 00:05:23,396 --> 00:05:26,956 Speaker 2: would go and visit towns and cities and villages all 85 00:05:26,996 --> 00:05:31,636 Speaker 2: across this land. And he would interview doctors and hospitals 86 00:05:31,796 --> 00:05:35,276 Speaker 2: and funeral directors, and he would visit all the major employers, 87 00:05:35,316 --> 00:05:37,076 Speaker 2: and he would go to the cemeteries and he would 88 00:05:37,116 --> 00:05:39,316 Speaker 2: talk to people, and he would walk around the town 89 00:05:39,476 --> 00:05:41,236 Speaker 2: and he would try and get a sense of what 90 00:05:41,316 --> 00:05:45,116 Speaker 2: people are dying of. Hoffman was one of the first 91 00:05:45,116 --> 00:05:48,396 Speaker 2: people to sound the alarm about smoking. He was one 92 00:05:48,436 --> 00:05:51,356 Speaker 2: of the first to describe the terrible health conditions on 93 00:05:51,476 --> 00:05:56,476 Speaker 2: Indian reservations, But perhaps his most important work concerned what 94 00:05:56,596 --> 00:06:01,756 Speaker 2: was known at the time as miners asthma. I give 95 00:06:01,796 --> 00:06:04,276 Speaker 2: a fair number of talks, and one of the things 96 00:06:04,276 --> 00:06:07,076 Speaker 2: that you can usually tell is if you've lost your audience. 97 00:06:07,996 --> 00:06:10,836 Speaker 2: And I remember that day pen thinking that I had 98 00:06:10,916 --> 00:06:14,636 Speaker 2: no idea twenty minutes in I began to panic a 99 00:06:14,676 --> 00:06:18,316 Speaker 2: little because I'm going on and on about Hoffman, about 100 00:06:18,596 --> 00:06:20,796 Speaker 2: coal mining, about how big a deal coal was the 101 00:06:20,796 --> 00:06:23,756 Speaker 2: turn of the century, About how much dust the process 102 00:06:23,796 --> 00:06:26,716 Speaker 2: of coal mining created, About how coal miners would have 103 00:06:26,716 --> 00:06:30,996 Speaker 2: coughing fits and spit up this black, inky substance, and 104 00:06:31,076 --> 00:06:33,236 Speaker 2: they would cough more and more of it the more 105 00:06:33,276 --> 00:06:35,596 Speaker 2: they mined in the more time they spent in the 106 00:06:35,636 --> 00:06:41,636 Speaker 2: coal mines. That was absolutely beyond question. The audience is 107 00:06:41,636 --> 00:06:44,996 Speaker 2: incredibly quiet, and I couldn't figure out if that was 108 00:06:45,036 --> 00:06:48,276 Speaker 2: because they found the subject as fascinating as I did, 109 00:06:48,876 --> 00:06:52,636 Speaker 2: or if they were thinking what on earth. The thing 110 00:06:52,676 --> 00:06:55,436 Speaker 2: that no one could agree on was was that whether 111 00:06:55,476 --> 00:06:58,516 Speaker 2: that was dangerous? Did it harm the health of someone 112 00:06:58,796 --> 00:07:02,756 Speaker 2: to inhale all of this dust from coal mining miners? 113 00:07:02,796 --> 00:07:06,916 Speaker 2: Asthma wasn't bothering the medical community and the mining companies. 114 00:07:07,716 --> 00:07:11,916 Speaker 2: They said, look, miners have lower rates of tuberculosis than 115 00:07:11,916 --> 00:07:16,156 Speaker 2: everyone else. TB is a respiratory disease, so maybe cole 116 00:07:16,236 --> 00:07:20,916 Speaker 2: dust is protective in some way. Another argument was if 117 00:07:20,956 --> 00:07:24,316 Speaker 2: miners were coughing up dust particles, then their lungs were 118 00:07:24,356 --> 00:07:27,076 Speaker 2: functioning as they should. So for years and years and years, 119 00:07:27,076 --> 00:07:30,516 Speaker 2: nobody paid particular attention to the problem of col dust 120 00:07:30,556 --> 00:07:32,996 Speaker 2: because they had all of these arguments that they used 121 00:07:33,316 --> 00:07:37,156 Speaker 2: to convince themselves that it wasn't a health risk. And 122 00:07:37,196 --> 00:07:42,116 Speaker 2: then along comes Frederick Hoffman. Prudential ensured a lot of miners, 123 00:07:42,636 --> 00:07:44,876 Speaker 2: and if they're dying young, then that was a real 124 00:07:44,956 --> 00:07:51,276 Speaker 2: problem for Prudential. So Hoffman investigated and in nineteen eighteen 125 00:07:51,316 --> 00:07:56,036 Speaker 2: he publishes this famous report was called Mortality from Respiratory 126 00:07:56,036 --> 00:07:59,156 Speaker 2: Diseases in the Dusty Trades, and it comes out. It 127 00:07:59,196 --> 00:08:01,356 Speaker 2: was published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics by the 128 00:08:01,396 --> 00:08:06,916 Speaker 2: government federal government in nineteen eighteen. Hoffman was methodical. First, 129 00:08:06,956 --> 00:08:10,996 Speaker 2: he looked at the government statistics on tiberulosis. He found 130 00:08:10,996 --> 00:08:14,316 Speaker 2: no evidence miners had lower rates of TB. Then he 131 00:08:14,356 --> 00:08:17,916 Speaker 2: looked at asthma death rates. They were five times higher 132 00:08:17,916 --> 00:08:21,836 Speaker 2: for coal miners than for other working men. Hoffmann looked 133 00:08:21,836 --> 00:08:25,196 Speaker 2: at census data who was still working after the age 134 00:08:25,196 --> 00:08:28,636 Speaker 2: of forty five. For farmers at the time, almost a 135 00:08:28,716 --> 00:08:32,476 Speaker 2: third were still working. For miners it was a fifth. 136 00:08:33,436 --> 00:08:36,596 Speaker 2: If mining was so healthy, why were all the miners 137 00:08:36,596 --> 00:08:41,036 Speaker 2: disappearing from their profession. So he adds all this up, 138 00:08:41,036 --> 00:08:43,116 Speaker 2: but he says, look, I don't buy it. I think 139 00:08:43,156 --> 00:08:45,756 Speaker 2: that this miners asthma's thing is something that we should 140 00:08:45,756 --> 00:08:50,156 Speaker 2: be concerned about. So here we have the senior statistician 141 00:08:50,436 --> 00:08:54,316 Speaker 2: from one of the most powerful and important institutions in 142 00:08:54,356 --> 00:08:58,036 Speaker 2: the country publishing a report on the health of workers 143 00:08:58,076 --> 00:09:01,476 Speaker 2: in one of the most important and critical industries in 144 00:09:01,516 --> 00:09:04,996 Speaker 2: the country and saying there's a problem. So what do 145 00:09:04,996 --> 00:09:13,036 Speaker 2: you think happens? Nothing happens, nothing think whatsoever? And why 146 00:09:13,036 --> 00:09:16,676 Speaker 2: does nothing happen? Because all kinds of people stood up 147 00:09:16,716 --> 00:09:21,516 Speaker 2: and read Hoffman's report and said, you've got no proof. 148 00:09:24,836 --> 00:09:27,716 Speaker 2: Let's give the students at pen credit for their patients. 149 00:09:28,316 --> 00:09:30,596 Speaker 2: Because this part of my talk went on for a 150 00:09:30,756 --> 00:09:33,836 Speaker 2: very long time, but I was trying to answer the 151 00:09:33,916 --> 00:09:37,796 Speaker 2: question at the core of proof, At what point do 152 00:09:37,876 --> 00:09:43,036 Speaker 2: you act? People argued after Hoffmann published his report that 153 00:09:43,076 --> 00:09:46,156 Speaker 2: we still didn't know quite enough, that he had a 154 00:09:46,156 --> 00:09:51,716 Speaker 2: lot of suggestive evidence but not definitive evidence. And that 155 00:09:51,916 --> 00:09:55,916 Speaker 2: was true, But it was also irrelevant because if you 156 00:09:55,996 --> 00:09:59,516 Speaker 2: wait until the evidence is perfect and complete, you'll never act. 157 00:10:00,596 --> 00:10:04,116 Speaker 2: It was not until the nineteen seventies that people suddenly 158 00:10:04,356 --> 00:10:09,836 Speaker 2: realized that tens of thousands of miners were dying horrible deaths, 159 00:10:10,236 --> 00:10:14,876 Speaker 2: vastly prematurely because of the dust they inhaled while working. 160 00:10:14,676 --> 00:10:15,356 Speaker 1: In the minds. 161 00:10:18,196 --> 00:10:21,556 Speaker 2: Now, I think we can all agree that that is 162 00:10:22,356 --> 00:10:28,756 Speaker 2: a appalling story, right, that should never have happened. We 163 00:10:28,796 --> 00:10:31,476 Speaker 2: should have acted on this in nineteen eighteen. Instead, we 164 00:10:31,516 --> 00:10:35,396 Speaker 2: acted on this in nineteen seventy five. We look around 165 00:10:35,476 --> 00:10:37,596 Speaker 2: the room and we say to ourselves, we would never 166 00:10:37,636 --> 00:10:42,676 Speaker 2: do that, would we We're much too educated and sophisticated 167 00:10:43,076 --> 00:10:47,436 Speaker 2: and empathetic to ever look at the suffering of someone 168 00:10:47,476 --> 00:10:50,156 Speaker 2: else and say, oh, we're not going to act until 169 00:10:50,196 --> 00:10:55,956 Speaker 2: we have proof. But we do do that. All of 170 00:10:56,036 --> 00:10:59,796 Speaker 2: us do that. Everyone in this room is doing that 171 00:11:00,596 --> 00:11:05,876 Speaker 2: even as we speak. Now, what am I talking about? 172 00:11:07,476 --> 00:11:20,396 Speaker 2: I'm talking about football. Owen Thomas, the Redheaded Viking, was 173 00:11:20,436 --> 00:11:24,116 Speaker 2: a football player. So is his father Tom. 174 00:11:24,396 --> 00:11:28,196 Speaker 3: It was the nineteen sixties. Yeah, so I was a 175 00:11:28,276 --> 00:11:30,956 Speaker 3: full back, which in the backfield. If you know anything 176 00:11:30,956 --> 00:11:32,436 Speaker 3: about American football. 177 00:11:32,876 --> 00:11:37,756 Speaker 2: Owen's grandfather played for Millersville University. His older brother, Morgan, 178 00:11:37,916 --> 00:11:41,756 Speaker 2: played offensive tackle for East Stroudsburg University. 179 00:11:41,796 --> 00:11:42,436 Speaker 1: And then Owen played. 180 00:11:42,876 --> 00:11:44,596 Speaker 3: So I guess we're kind of a football family. 181 00:11:44,836 --> 00:11:45,996 Speaker 1: Yeah. 182 00:11:46,036 --> 00:11:48,876 Speaker 2: On the dining table right in front of me are 183 00:11:48,996 --> 00:11:52,716 Speaker 2: Owen's helmets from middle school and high school and college, 184 00:11:53,316 --> 00:11:56,196 Speaker 2: all scratched and battered, lined up in a row. 185 00:11:56,436 --> 00:11:58,556 Speaker 6: It's hard for alignment to be a star, you know, 186 00:11:58,676 --> 00:12:00,916 Speaker 6: like you running back, quarterback, those are really the stars. 187 00:12:00,916 --> 00:12:04,476 Speaker 6: But he was definitely a feared player from all angles 188 00:12:04,516 --> 00:12:06,836 Speaker 6: and people knew who he was, so he was definitely 189 00:12:06,836 --> 00:12:08,596 Speaker 6: one of the one of the stars. 190 00:12:09,196 --> 00:12:11,636 Speaker 3: He couldn't wait for the season to begin. You know, 191 00:12:11,716 --> 00:12:15,916 Speaker 3: most most of the football players say, oh, I just 192 00:12:16,316 --> 00:12:17,596 Speaker 3: I don't want to The. 193 00:12:17,596 --> 00:12:21,036 Speaker 4: First day of practice was would just be like like running, 194 00:12:21,156 --> 00:12:22,556 Speaker 4: putting on a uniform and running. 195 00:12:22,596 --> 00:12:24,556 Speaker 3: For him said I just can't wait to hit somebody. 196 00:12:24,596 --> 00:12:25,556 Speaker 3: I just want to hit something. 197 00:12:25,636 --> 00:12:28,636 Speaker 4: And that was that's his own team, that's his own team. 198 00:12:28,636 --> 00:12:34,316 Speaker 2: That when it came time for college, Owen Thomas went 199 00:12:34,876 --> 00:12:36,396 Speaker 2: to the University of Pennsylvania. 200 00:12:37,436 --> 00:12:38,836 Speaker 6: He was just kind of guy that on a on 201 00:12:38,876 --> 00:12:40,596 Speaker 6: a bad day when they had to wake up at 202 00:12:40,596 --> 00:12:42,676 Speaker 6: six seven o'clock in the morning to do a workout 203 00:12:42,716 --> 00:12:45,836 Speaker 6: and everyone you know, had class and everything. He was 204 00:12:45,876 --> 00:12:48,636 Speaker 6: the kind of guy that would get everybody motivated to 205 00:12:48,716 --> 00:12:52,156 Speaker 6: complete the workout and then go on with your day. 206 00:12:53,356 --> 00:12:56,716 Speaker 2: He was named captain of the football team. Seventy six 207 00:12:56,916 --> 00:13:00,316 Speaker 2: out of the eighty players voted for him. Then, one 208 00:13:00,396 --> 00:13:03,556 Speaker 2: day out of the blue, in the spring of his 209 00:13:03,636 --> 00:13:07,276 Speaker 2: junior year, he hung himself in his apartment. 210 00:13:15,036 --> 00:13:18,316 Speaker 4: Tom sent me a text message except I was listened 211 00:13:18,316 --> 00:13:23,076 Speaker 4: to an a lecture, so saying call me. Well, there 212 00:13:23,076 --> 00:13:24,916 Speaker 4: are all these messages, call me, call me, call me. 213 00:13:26,956 --> 00:13:30,716 Speaker 2: They drove down to Philadelphia, they went to identify their 214 00:13:30,716 --> 00:13:33,916 Speaker 2: son's body in the hospital, and in the car on 215 00:13:33,956 --> 00:13:37,676 Speaker 2: the way back on this terrible, terrible day, they got 216 00:13:37,716 --> 00:13:42,516 Speaker 2: a call from someone named Chris Newinski. Newinski is a 217 00:13:42,516 --> 00:13:46,516 Speaker 2: former college football player with a PhD in neuroscience who 218 00:13:46,596 --> 00:13:50,276 Speaker 2: runs the Concussion Legacy Foundation. He works with a group 219 00:13:50,356 --> 00:13:54,956 Speaker 2: of researchers at Boston University. For more than a decade, 220 00:13:55,196 --> 00:13:58,236 Speaker 2: they've been autopsyying the brains of people who have, in 221 00:13:58,276 --> 00:14:01,516 Speaker 2: the course of their lives suffered repeated blows to the head, 222 00:14:02,556 --> 00:14:12,036 Speaker 2: looking for something called chronic traumatic encephalopathy CTE. Getting hit 223 00:14:12,116 --> 00:14:14,796 Speaker 2: in the head causes your brain to twist and bruise 224 00:14:15,836 --> 00:14:19,596 Speaker 2: if you get hit enough times. That bruising causes the 225 00:14:19,636 --> 00:14:24,396 Speaker 2: accumulation of a protein called TAO, and that tao slowly 226 00:14:24,436 --> 00:14:29,476 Speaker 2: works its way through the brain like a poison. So far, 227 00:14:29,876 --> 00:14:33,276 Speaker 2: Newinski's group has autopsied the brains of one hundred and 228 00:14:33,276 --> 00:14:39,956 Speaker 2: eleven former NFL players. One hundred and ten had CTE. 229 00:14:40,196 --> 00:14:43,236 Speaker 2: Seven of eight former Canadian Football League players had it, 230 00:14:43,836 --> 00:14:47,476 Speaker 2: so did nine of fourteen semi pro players, forty eight 231 00:14:47,596 --> 00:14:51,756 Speaker 2: of fifty three college players, three out of fourteen high 232 00:14:51,796 --> 00:15:01,316 Speaker 2: school players. The symptoms of ct include difficulty thinking, impulsive behavior, depression, 233 00:15:01,836 --> 00:15:07,716 Speaker 2: short term memory loss, difficulty planning, emotional instability, and suicidal 234 00:15:07,756 --> 00:15:14,716 Speaker 2: thoughts and behavior. It's not pleasant. One of the first 235 00:15:14,716 --> 00:15:18,836 Speaker 2: pro players diagnosed with CTE was Mike Webster. He was 236 00:15:18,876 --> 00:15:21,996 Speaker 2: a Hall of Fame center with the Pittsburgh Steelers. He 237 00:15:22,036 --> 00:15:27,076 Speaker 2: died at fifty. In his house, his family found page 238 00:15:27,196 --> 00:15:31,276 Speaker 2: after page of scrippled notes written by Webster to document 239 00:15:31,356 --> 00:15:37,676 Speaker 2: his mental state. Like this, deep confusing, twisting, fishing line, 240 00:15:37,756 --> 00:15:41,196 Speaker 2: tangled up mess of confusing things go. 241 00:15:41,196 --> 00:15:42,076 Speaker 1: On all the time? 242 00:15:43,916 --> 00:15:47,236 Speaker 2: Or Junior Seou and Dave Durson, two of the great 243 00:15:47,236 --> 00:15:51,156 Speaker 2: football players of their generation, both shot themselves in the 244 00:15:51,236 --> 00:15:55,676 Speaker 2: chest at the ages of forty three and fifty Why 245 00:15:55,756 --> 00:15:58,796 Speaker 2: in the chest to make sure their brains were intact 246 00:15:58,876 --> 00:16:08,796 Speaker 2: for autopsy to make the pathologists job easier? Now our 247 00:16:08,836 --> 00:16:12,996 Speaker 2: case like this absolute proof of a connection between CTE 248 00:16:13,436 --> 00:16:17,356 Speaker 2: and football players getting hit in the head. No. The 249 00:16:17,436 --> 00:16:20,636 Speaker 2: research group at Boston University has just published a study 250 00:16:20,676 --> 00:16:23,556 Speaker 2: which looked at players who had started playing tackle football 251 00:16:23,596 --> 00:16:27,876 Speaker 2: before the age of twelve. I'm quoting youth exposure to 252 00:16:27,876 --> 00:16:33,596 Speaker 2: tackle football may reduce resiliency to late life neuropathology may 253 00:16:33,916 --> 00:16:39,156 Speaker 2: reduce Remember they're working from a non representative sample autopsies 254 00:16:39,196 --> 00:16:44,396 Speaker 2: conducted on players whose families believe something was wrong. Proof 255 00:16:44,396 --> 00:16:47,476 Speaker 2: would be if you identified two thousand people, half of 256 00:16:47,516 --> 00:16:50,556 Speaker 2: whom played football and half of whom do not, followed 257 00:16:50,596 --> 00:16:53,156 Speaker 2: them over the course of their lives and compared the 258 00:16:53,196 --> 00:16:56,916 Speaker 2: autopsies of their brains at death. Did the football players 259 00:16:56,956 --> 00:17:00,036 Speaker 2: have on average more the protein TAO in their brain 260 00:17:00,116 --> 00:17:04,956 Speaker 2: tissue than the non football players. The problem is that 261 00:17:04,996 --> 00:17:08,716 Speaker 2: the average American male life expectancy is seventy five years. 262 00:17:09,516 --> 00:17:13,036 Speaker 2: If we start that study now, we'll have definitive proof 263 00:17:13,556 --> 00:17:18,036 Speaker 2: somewhere around the turn of the next century. The much 264 00:17:18,476 --> 00:17:21,916 Speaker 2: much harder question is what you do in the interim, 265 00:17:22,196 --> 00:17:24,956 Speaker 2: And the answer is that you do what Chris Nowinski 266 00:17:25,276 --> 00:17:29,876 Speaker 2: of the Concussion Foundation does. You plug away. You call 267 00:17:29,956 --> 00:17:32,916 Speaker 2: people up at the height of their grief and ask 268 00:17:32,996 --> 00:17:36,516 Speaker 2: them for brain tissue before the body of their loved 269 00:17:36,516 --> 00:17:40,916 Speaker 2: one is buried or cremated. You call up people like 270 00:17:40,996 --> 00:17:42,196 Speaker 2: Owen Thomas's parents. 271 00:17:42,756 --> 00:17:45,716 Speaker 4: This is a day when it was like poured and 272 00:17:45,876 --> 00:17:49,876 Speaker 4: poured and poured with rain the whole day, and so 273 00:17:49,916 --> 00:17:52,356 Speaker 4: we were going back. It was must have been about 274 00:17:52,396 --> 00:17:55,916 Speaker 4: like ten o'clock at night, right driving at the turnpike, 275 00:17:57,116 --> 00:18:00,116 Speaker 4: and suddenly this I get this phone call from this 276 00:18:00,356 --> 00:18:02,436 Speaker 4: person whose name I can hardly understand. 277 00:18:03,596 --> 00:18:05,796 Speaker 2: The Thomases were too stunned to say no. 278 00:18:06,516 --> 00:18:08,436 Speaker 4: But he still had to do quite a lot of 279 00:18:08,436 --> 00:18:12,436 Speaker 4: work because he had to then call the undertaker and 280 00:18:12,476 --> 00:18:16,116 Speaker 4: get the undertaker to get the brain matter which had 281 00:18:16,156 --> 00:18:19,836 Speaker 4: been just like dumped in a bag by the medical examiner. Yeah, 282 00:18:19,956 --> 00:18:28,236 Speaker 4: he has something to answer from. Well, the medical examiner 283 00:18:28,876 --> 00:18:32,156 Speaker 4: did an autopsy. Right, So this was a football player 284 00:18:32,476 --> 00:18:35,796 Speaker 4: who had committed suicide and he didn't he didn't make 285 00:18:35,836 --> 00:18:41,756 Speaker 4: any attempt to preserve the brain matter, which now I 286 00:18:41,756 --> 00:18:44,756 Speaker 4: look back on it and I think, how crazy is 287 00:18:44,836 --> 00:18:48,316 Speaker 4: that that that the brain matter was just like all 288 00:18:48,356 --> 00:18:51,116 Speaker 4: mixed up with all the rest of the bits and 289 00:18:51,116 --> 00:18:53,236 Speaker 4: pieces and just thrown in a bag. 290 00:18:55,716 --> 00:19:00,436 Speaker 2: Owen Thomas died in April. The following September, his parents 291 00:19:00,636 --> 00:19:05,996 Speaker 2: got a second call. Owen had CTE and suddenly it 292 00:19:06,076 --> 00:19:10,756 Speaker 2: all made sense. Why they're focused, joyful, high spirited son 293 00:19:11,276 --> 00:19:14,596 Speaker 2: had suddenly called and said, I'm failing at everything. 294 00:19:15,076 --> 00:19:16,956 Speaker 1: How did that news change you? 295 00:19:17,156 --> 00:19:17,196 Speaker 5: We? 296 00:19:17,316 --> 00:19:19,996 Speaker 1: What was the impact on hearing that? You said? You 297 00:19:20,036 --> 00:19:21,596 Speaker 1: were relieved in some sense. 298 00:19:22,316 --> 00:19:26,116 Speaker 3: That there was a contributing factor, that it wasn't just depression, 299 00:19:26,236 --> 00:19:29,836 Speaker 3: that there was a cause that you could medical cause 300 00:19:29,876 --> 00:19:32,516 Speaker 3: that you could maybe say that contributed to him. 301 00:19:35,716 --> 00:19:38,836 Speaker 4: Well, it gave us a hold on He gave us 302 00:19:38,836 --> 00:19:39,836 Speaker 4: a purpose. 303 00:19:42,156 --> 00:19:45,396 Speaker 2: Not an answer, because there's still too much unknown for 304 00:19:45,436 --> 00:19:59,636 Speaker 2: that a purpose. Now what am I talking about? I'm 305 00:19:59,636 --> 00:20:05,836 Speaker 2: talking about football. What do we know about football? We 306 00:20:05,916 --> 00:20:09,316 Speaker 2: know about football approximately what Frederick Kaufman knew about old 307 00:20:09,396 --> 00:20:14,916 Speaker 2: dust in nineteen eighteen. So there I was in the 308 00:20:14,956 --> 00:20:20,716 Speaker 2: Harrison Auditorium at the University of Pennsylvania. It was twenty thirteen. 309 00:20:21,516 --> 00:20:24,676 Speaker 2: Owen Thomas had been dead for three years. There were 310 00:20:24,716 --> 00:20:28,516 Speaker 2: students in the room who had known him, who remembered him. 311 00:20:29,116 --> 00:20:31,276 Speaker 2: So I told the story of how he was found 312 00:20:31,956 --> 00:20:35,036 Speaker 2: hanging in his apartment, and I asked them, is that 313 00:20:35,356 --> 00:20:38,596 Speaker 2: enough proof for you? Is the death of someone you 314 00:20:38,676 --> 00:20:41,356 Speaker 2: went to school with who was the captain of your 315 00:20:41,396 --> 00:20:45,356 Speaker 2: football team enough evidence to walk away from the game? 316 00:20:50,556 --> 00:20:53,836 Speaker 2: I sometimes think about that moment. When I met Bob's 317 00:20:53,916 --> 00:20:56,676 Speaker 2: Library at New York University, I do a lot of 318 00:20:56,716 --> 00:21:00,196 Speaker 2: my research there. The library has a massive, multi story 319 00:21:00,276 --> 00:21:03,796 Speaker 2: atrium at its center, and a few years ago a 320 00:21:03,876 --> 00:21:06,956 Speaker 2: student jumped over one of the railings overlooking the atrium, 321 00:21:08,276 --> 00:21:13,236 Speaker 2: and immediately, immediately, and at great expense, the university put 322 00:21:13,316 --> 00:21:17,396 Speaker 2: up high plexiglass screens in front of every railing. Then 323 00:21:17,636 --> 00:21:20,396 Speaker 2: a few years after that, a student found a way 324 00:21:20,436 --> 00:21:23,196 Speaker 2: to wriggle over the plexiglass and jump to his death. 325 00:21:23,676 --> 00:21:28,076 Speaker 2: So the university installed an even more expensive and elaborate 326 00:21:28,356 --> 00:21:31,716 Speaker 2: and fool proof metal screen that was impossible to get 327 00:21:31,756 --> 00:21:37,996 Speaker 2: around or over. Two suicides, and they spent millions of dollars. 328 00:21:38,836 --> 00:21:42,036 Speaker 2: Why because the job of a university is to watch 329 00:21:42,036 --> 00:21:44,596 Speaker 2: out for the welfare of the students under its care. 330 00:21:45,196 --> 00:22:07,836 Speaker 2: And NYU didn't need any more evidence to act. 331 00:21:58,676 --> 00:22:02,636 Speaker 8: Two thousand and nine lits in a crowd by coming 332 00:22:02,676 --> 00:22:07,036 Speaker 8: together in order to overcome the adversity the plans stake 333 00:22:07,116 --> 00:22:09,596 Speaker 8: in the field. In November, here. 334 00:22:09,516 --> 00:22:11,996 Speaker 2: Is what Penn did in response to the suicide of 335 00:22:11,996 --> 00:22:16,156 Speaker 2: Owen Thomas and the results of his brain autopsy. They 336 00:22:16,156 --> 00:22:19,716 Speaker 2: honored him with forty seconds of silence before the season 337 00:22:19,756 --> 00:22:24,116 Speaker 2: opener the next fall against Lafayette. Owen's jersey had been 338 00:22:24,196 --> 00:22:28,956 Speaker 2: number forty. His teammates wore decals on their helmets with 339 00:22:29,036 --> 00:22:29,916 Speaker 2: the number forty on. 340 00:22:29,996 --> 00:22:34,636 Speaker 8: Them, blinking hand in hand parallel to the sideline, standing 341 00:22:34,676 --> 00:22:38,636 Speaker 8: for a forty second moment of silence and tribute to 342 00:22:38,876 --> 00:22:43,516 Speaker 8: their former teammate Owen Thomas, who pass away on Monday 343 00:22:43,596 --> 00:22:46,836 Speaker 8: Aprilty twenty six this past off season. 344 00:22:47,716 --> 00:22:51,156 Speaker 2: And here is the statement the university issued upon hearing 345 00:22:51,196 --> 00:22:55,116 Speaker 2: that Owen Thomas had been diagnosed with CTE. I read 346 00:22:55,156 --> 00:22:57,116 Speaker 2: it to the audience when I was at Penn in 347 00:22:57,156 --> 00:23:01,116 Speaker 2: twenty thirteen. While we will never know the cause of 348 00:23:01,156 --> 00:23:04,956 Speaker 2: Owen Thomas's depression and subsequent suicide. We are aware of 349 00:23:05,116 --> 00:23:07,996 Speaker 2: and deeply concerned about the medical issues now being raised 350 00:23:07,996 --> 00:23:11,036 Speaker 2: about football head injury, and will continue to work with 351 00:23:11,116 --> 00:23:13,836 Speaker 2: the Ivy League and the medical community in addressing these issues. 352 00:23:14,716 --> 00:23:18,276 Speaker 2: Owen's untimely death was a terrible tragedy, and we continued 353 00:23:18,316 --> 00:23:23,796 Speaker 2: to grieve for his loss. Where to start. Let's start 354 00:23:23,836 --> 00:23:26,156 Speaker 2: with the statement we will never know the cause of 355 00:23:26,196 --> 00:23:30,556 Speaker 2: Owen Thomas's depression and subsequent suicide. Are you kidding me? 356 00:23:32,076 --> 00:23:35,476 Speaker 2: What is there more to know? A healthy young man 357 00:23:35,516 --> 00:23:39,236 Speaker 2: with no previous history of depression hangs himself in his 358 00:23:39,316 --> 00:23:42,116 Speaker 2: apartment and when they do an autopsy on his brain, 359 00:23:42,196 --> 00:23:45,436 Speaker 2: they find he has the beginnings of a debilitating neurological 360 00:23:45,516 --> 00:23:49,956 Speaker 2: disorder caused by taking too many hits on the football field. 361 00:23:50,636 --> 00:23:55,276 Speaker 2: And then the statement we are aware and deeply concerned 362 00:23:55,276 --> 00:23:58,356 Speaker 2: about the medical issues being raised about football head injuries. 363 00:24:00,476 --> 00:24:03,036 Speaker 2: We are so aware and deeply concerned about the medical 364 00:24:03,036 --> 00:24:06,156 Speaker 2: issues being raised about football head injuries that three years 365 00:24:06,196 --> 00:24:13,596 Speaker 2: after Owen Thomas's death, Penn continues to play football. In 366 00:24:13,636 --> 00:24:17,156 Speaker 2: my book, that does not count as concern. That is 367 00:24:17,276 --> 00:24:28,636 Speaker 2: moral indifference, not long ago. I went to see Albegnoli. 368 00:24:29,436 --> 00:24:33,116 Speaker 2: He's the head football coach at Glumbia University. Before that 369 00:24:33,476 --> 00:24:37,116 Speaker 2: he was at Penn. He was Owen Thomas's coach, and 370 00:24:37,156 --> 00:24:41,596 Speaker 2: he reminded me I'd left someone out. Owen Thomas wasn't 371 00:24:41,596 --> 00:24:42,316 Speaker 2: the only one. 372 00:24:42,636 --> 00:24:45,556 Speaker 5: Oh, we had two. We had Kyle Ambrosey too. They're 373 00:24:45,596 --> 00:24:49,956 Speaker 5: both traumatic. But Kyle's was unbelievable because. 374 00:24:50,476 --> 00:24:54,156 Speaker 7: That happened right in mid season, So it happened after 375 00:24:54,196 --> 00:24:56,796 Speaker 7: he scored two touchdowns or we'd beat Buck now fifty 376 00:24:56,836 --> 00:24:57,676 Speaker 7: one or something. 377 00:24:59,476 --> 00:25:03,636 Speaker 2: Kyle Ambrosi star running back on the Penn football team 378 00:25:03,956 --> 00:25:06,676 Speaker 2: and a student at the Wharton School of Business, just 379 00:25:06,716 --> 00:25:11,236 Speaker 2: like Owen Thomas. He shot himself at his mother's house 380 00:25:11,836 --> 00:25:16,876 Speaker 2: in October two thousand and five. There wasn't an autopsy 381 00:25:16,916 --> 00:25:21,076 Speaker 2: on Kyle Ambrosie's brain in two thousand and five. CTE 382 00:25:21,156 --> 00:25:23,316 Speaker 2: just wasn't on people's radar in the same way that 383 00:25:23,356 --> 00:25:26,076 Speaker 2: it is now, So we'll never know whether he suffered 384 00:25:26,076 --> 00:25:28,556 Speaker 2: from the disease the way we know with Owen Thomas. 385 00:25:29,156 --> 00:25:34,516 Speaker 2: We don't have proof, but what happened to Kyle Ambrogie 386 00:25:34,636 --> 00:25:38,516 Speaker 2: sounds very much like what happened to Owen Thomas. All 387 00:25:38,556 --> 00:25:41,396 Speaker 2: his life, a young man plays a sport that involves 388 00:25:41,436 --> 00:25:45,996 Speaker 2: repeated blows to his brain, until suddenly he fell apart 389 00:25:46,036 --> 00:25:47,716 Speaker 2: in a way that looks an awful lot, like the 390 00:25:47,756 --> 00:25:51,356 Speaker 2: way people fall apart after they've had repeated blows to 391 00:25:51,436 --> 00:25:51,916 Speaker 2: their brain. 392 00:26:00,036 --> 00:26:03,316 Speaker 9: You know, there is even physical changes, like his eye 393 00:26:03,316 --> 00:26:06,916 Speaker 9: color got lighter, and you can just see that he 394 00:26:07,076 --> 00:26:10,316 Speaker 9: was fighting demons and he couldn't explain them. 395 00:26:10,916 --> 00:26:12,836 Speaker 2: That's Kyle Ambrogie's brother Greg. 396 00:26:14,076 --> 00:26:17,596 Speaker 9: I asked him, and he, you know, would try to 397 00:26:17,596 --> 00:26:20,396 Speaker 9: explain them, and he just would run out of words. 398 00:26:20,396 --> 00:26:22,396 Speaker 9: He would open his mouth and nothing would come out, 399 00:26:22,396 --> 00:26:24,276 Speaker 9: and I would just look at him and I didn't. 400 00:26:24,516 --> 00:26:26,476 Speaker 10: Yeah, the only thing he said to me is, Mommy, 401 00:26:26,516 --> 00:26:27,116 Speaker 10: it's so dark. 402 00:26:27,156 --> 00:26:27,716 Speaker 5: It's scary. 403 00:26:28,316 --> 00:26:31,396 Speaker 10: And it was very frightening to him because he was 404 00:26:31,436 --> 00:26:34,236 Speaker 10: always used to being in control, and this isn't out 405 00:26:34,276 --> 00:26:35,116 Speaker 10: of control, feeling. 406 00:26:35,876 --> 00:26:40,796 Speaker 2: Kyle's mother, Donna, listening to the Ambrosies was like listening 407 00:26:40,876 --> 00:26:44,476 Speaker 2: to the Thomases. Someone you know becomes someone you don't 408 00:26:44,516 --> 00:26:47,676 Speaker 2: know right in front of your eyes, and they haven't 409 00:26:47,796 --> 00:26:51,756 Speaker 2: done anything. They haven't been in a terrible accident or 410 00:26:51,796 --> 00:26:55,836 Speaker 2: overdosed on drugs or squandered their life away. They've just 411 00:26:55,836 --> 00:26:58,036 Speaker 2: played a game, played it well. 412 00:26:59,396 --> 00:27:02,356 Speaker 10: And if you're always, like I said, the internally driven, 413 00:27:03,596 --> 00:27:06,436 Speaker 10: you know, never had to say, Kyle, do your homework, 414 00:27:06,956 --> 00:27:11,356 Speaker 10: go practice, go whatever. He always had it done ahead 415 00:27:11,356 --> 00:27:14,236 Speaker 10: of time. That was him. This is what he wanted 416 00:27:14,276 --> 00:27:16,556 Speaker 10: to do. So if you're used to being in control 417 00:27:16,676 --> 00:27:21,156 Speaker 10: and your mind is you're having thoughts that you don't 418 00:27:21,196 --> 00:27:23,116 Speaker 10: have control over, it's very scary. 419 00:27:29,236 --> 00:27:31,796 Speaker 2: Had anything you've done as a coach prepared you for 420 00:27:32,356 --> 00:27:34,156 Speaker 2: I mean that's a really tough position to be. 421 00:27:34,556 --> 00:27:36,796 Speaker 5: No, no, no, nothing you can do. 422 00:27:37,596 --> 00:27:39,316 Speaker 2: What did you say to your players. 423 00:27:40,116 --> 00:27:42,356 Speaker 5: Basically we're here for you. Yeah. 424 00:27:42,476 --> 00:27:46,676 Speaker 11: I mean, you know, anytime you get that kind of trauma, 425 00:27:46,916 --> 00:27:50,116 Speaker 11: to deal with it, because again, it kind of brings 426 00:27:50,156 --> 00:27:55,236 Speaker 11: you back to Okay, what's really important and what isn't important. 427 00:27:55,276 --> 00:27:57,636 Speaker 11: You know, you've been so much premium on Okay, you 428 00:27:57,636 --> 00:27:59,476 Speaker 11: gotta win this game, you gotta win that game. You're 429 00:27:59,476 --> 00:28:01,116 Speaker 11: trying to win a title, and yet when it comes 430 00:28:01,116 --> 00:28:03,836 Speaker 11: to human life that's rather trivial. 431 00:28:06,836 --> 00:28:09,716 Speaker 2: I'm assuming the full team went to the funerals in 432 00:28:09,716 --> 00:28:13,596 Speaker 2: both cases. That must have been unbelievable. 433 00:28:14,116 --> 00:28:19,236 Speaker 7: It's it's very sad because again, it's hard to explain. 434 00:28:20,196 --> 00:28:21,796 Speaker 7: Not that it's any easier to lose somebody in a 435 00:28:21,836 --> 00:28:25,716 Speaker 7: car accident, but you can explain it. Or someone who 436 00:28:25,796 --> 00:28:30,156 Speaker 7: suffers from terminal cancer. It's just as traumatic, but you 437 00:28:30,196 --> 00:28:33,196 Speaker 7: can explain it. When you're a teammate of a kid 438 00:28:33,236 --> 00:28:36,556 Speaker 7: who commits suicide, you're you know, could I have Why 439 00:28:36,596 --> 00:28:37,396 Speaker 7: didn't I see this? 440 00:28:37,796 --> 00:28:40,676 Speaker 5: Could I have done something? Why? You know? I think 441 00:28:40,716 --> 00:28:45,876 Speaker 5: you always question yourself, what could I have done that? 442 00:28:46,156 --> 00:28:49,796 Speaker 5: Maybe in some other ways of death you kind of accept. 443 00:28:52,276 --> 00:28:54,516 Speaker 2: I've thought a lot about that talk. I gave it penn. 444 00:28:55,356 --> 00:29:00,036 Speaker 2: I'm not sure I won them over. The students listen politely, 445 00:29:00,596 --> 00:29:06,356 Speaker 2: and at the end ask thoughtful and skeptical questions. I 446 00:29:06,476 --> 00:29:09,316 Speaker 2: talked about the costs of football. Why didn't when they 447 00:29:09,356 --> 00:29:13,396 Speaker 2: talk about the benefits? They asked, doesn't everything come with 448 00:29:13,436 --> 00:29:17,036 Speaker 2: a risk? Shouldn't people be free to make their own choices. 449 00:29:17,876 --> 00:29:20,276 Speaker 2: A student who was on the football team stood up 450 00:29:20,316 --> 00:29:23,156 Speaker 2: and said, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for football. 451 00:29:25,036 --> 00:29:28,316 Speaker 2: When I met with coach Bagnoli, he talked about rule changes, 452 00:29:28,676 --> 00:29:31,876 Speaker 2: how they are now much more vigilant about concussions, how 453 00:29:31,876 --> 00:29:34,716 Speaker 2: they don't tackle in practice like they used to how 454 00:29:34,756 --> 00:29:38,556 Speaker 2: he doesn't believe that little kids should play tackle football. 455 00:29:38,636 --> 00:29:40,756 Speaker 2: I got the sense that a lot of students were 456 00:29:40,756 --> 00:29:46,356 Speaker 2: thinking about those things too. Maybe we can just manage 457 00:29:46,356 --> 00:29:49,956 Speaker 2: this problem, reduce the risk to some more acceptable level. 458 00:29:55,036 --> 00:29:57,916 Speaker 2: After the speech, as I walked to the post event reception, 459 00:29:58,516 --> 00:30:00,316 Speaker 2: one of the big deans at PENN looked at me 460 00:30:00,596 --> 00:30:04,516 Speaker 2: and shook his head. He said, we're not stopping football. 461 00:30:05,916 --> 00:30:10,836 Speaker 2: Of course not, and it won't stop at least not 462 00:30:10,956 --> 00:30:14,076 Speaker 2: until the third suicide, or maybe the fourth suicide or 463 00:30:14,116 --> 00:30:17,116 Speaker 2: the fifth, at which point the students in Alumnia Pen 464 00:30:17,236 --> 00:30:20,676 Speaker 2: will finally say that's an awfully high price to pay 465 00:30:21,436 --> 00:30:26,796 Speaker 2: for a game. Al Begnoley brought up one more. 466 00:30:26,716 --> 00:30:30,516 Speaker 11: Name that's unfortunately becoming more and more prevalent than I 467 00:30:30,556 --> 00:30:34,276 Speaker 11: just saw, the kid from in Washington State whose brother 468 00:30:34,316 --> 00:30:34,996 Speaker 11: actually was here. 469 00:30:35,676 --> 00:30:39,596 Speaker 2: The name of the kid from Washington State was Tyler Helensky. 470 00:30:39,676 --> 00:30:42,396 Speaker 2: He was supposed to be the twenty nineteen starting quarterback 471 00:30:42,476 --> 00:30:45,916 Speaker 2: for the Washington State Cougars. A few days before my 472 00:30:45,996 --> 00:30:50,276 Speaker 2: interview with Begnolly, Helensky borrowed a teammate's rifle and shot 473 00:30:50,356 --> 00:30:54,676 Speaker 2: himself in the head. A bright, outgoing kid with a 474 00:30:54,676 --> 00:31:02,436 Speaker 2: big smile, no motive. It's unfortunately becoming more and more prevalent. 475 00:31:03,956 --> 00:31:15,076 Speaker 2: But I guess we don't have enough proof. Well, it's 476 00:31:15,116 --> 00:31:18,996 Speaker 2: your classmates who are dying, right, it's your classmates who 477 00:31:18,996 --> 00:31:21,556 Speaker 2: are putting their lives at risk by playing this game. 478 00:31:22,116 --> 00:31:25,116 Speaker 2: I think all of you has to think about has 479 00:31:25,156 --> 00:31:30,836 Speaker 2: to consider boycotting football games at PEN. And I think 480 00:31:30,836 --> 00:31:33,516 Speaker 2: you have to convince your friends to boycott football games 481 00:31:33,516 --> 00:31:35,556 Speaker 2: at PEN. And I think you have to pick it 482 00:31:35,596 --> 00:31:38,236 Speaker 2: outside football games a PEN. And I think you have 483 00:31:38,276 --> 00:31:40,556 Speaker 2: to go to the administrators of this university and you 484 00:31:40,556 --> 00:31:43,796 Speaker 2: have to ask them why is a world class institution, 485 00:31:44,196 --> 00:31:46,556 Speaker 2: one of the finest universities of higher learning in this 486 00:31:46,676 --> 00:31:50,196 Speaker 2: planet exposing its own students to the risk of injury 487 00:31:50,276 --> 00:31:54,836 Speaker 2: and death. And if they ask for proof, tell them 488 00:31:54,836 --> 00:31:58,876 Speaker 2: you don't need proof. Sometimes proof is just another word 489 00:31:59,036 --> 00:32:00,116 Speaker 2: for letting people suffer. 490 00:32:01,476 --> 00:32:01,796 Speaker 5: Thank you. 491 00:32:19,196 --> 00:32:23,796 Speaker 2: Revisionist History is a Panoply production. The senior producer is 492 00:32:23,876 --> 00:32:28,756 Speaker 2: Mia Lobel, with Jacob Smith and Camille Baptista. Our editor 493 00:32:28,876 --> 00:32:33,396 Speaker 2: is Julia Barton. Flon Williams is our engineer. Fact checking 494 00:32:33,476 --> 00:32:38,116 Speaker 2: by Beth Johnson, Original music by Luis Gara. Special thanks 495 00:32:38,156 --> 00:32:40,116 Speaker 2: to Andy Bauers and Jacob Weisberg. 496 00:32:40,956 --> 00:32:41,796 Speaker 1: I'm Malcolm Glavo. 497 00:32:53,396 --> 00:32:56,676 Speaker 2: Suicide is a difficult topic. It can be hard for 498 00:32:56,716 --> 00:32:59,236 Speaker 2: people to talk about suicide or get help if they're 499 00:32:59,236 --> 00:33:03,156 Speaker 2: in danger, but there are resources available people want to help. 500 00:33:03,716 --> 00:33:09,756 Speaker 2: The National Suicide Prevention Hotline is one excellent resource. It's free, confidential, 501 00:33:10,036 --> 00:33:12,956 Speaker 2: and available twenty four hours a day. The number in 502 00:33:12,996 --> 00:33:16,116 Speaker 2: the US is one eight hundred two seven three, eight 503 00:33:16,316 --> 00:33:20,716 Speaker 2: two five five one eight hundred two seven three Talk