WEBVTT - Bondage to the Law 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:12.520 Last time on ear witness. 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:15.320 She was a very credible witness. 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:19.080 We believed her. Obviously, we believed her because we convicted him, 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:20.480 and it was on her testimony. 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:24.759 The only evidence supposedly they had against was this ear 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:28.800 witness who had never heard him speak before, who had 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:30.120 no idea who he was. 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.040 That is extremely strongly evidence Chefish believed. Of course, the 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:37.360 question becomes, so you believe that evidence? Well to believe 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:39.120 that evidence, she had to believe it's Ellison. 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:41.879 And so we're trying to get information on her. Her 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:46.239 name's Violet Ellison. Do you have an opinion about her 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:49.839 or have any any information that you could give us 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:50.920 about her. 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:57.240 I know she's ververy condicted. She's a very messy lady, 0:00:57.920 --> 0:00:59.120 very messy. 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:01.320 I tell you one thing about my grandma. 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:03.640 She is a that's a true scam artist. 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:05.760 That's a true I hate to see it. 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:08.000 I know that's my grandmother, but that's a true scam 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:08.479 auty death. 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:13.039 And I hate that this man could be innocent and 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:17.240 for five thousand dollars, he's on this for five hour 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:37.200 of dollars. 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:41.480 Near the intersection of Rosa Parks Avenue and Liberty Street 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:47.720 in Montgomery, Alabama, is a tiny red brick church outside 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:52.400 Saint Peter Ame. A large white banner is stretched twenty 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.960 five feet across the church's front lawn. The words It's 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:01.560 not too late to fix this mistake are written across 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:05.680 the banner in black and red letters. The mistake is 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:26.440 to forrest Johnson's conviction. The banner was created by an 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:32.240 organization called Greater Birmingham Ministries. This year, it has traveled 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:36.600 to eight different churches across Alabama to help raise awareness 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:40.440 about to Forest's case. Awareness that is growing. 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:44.760 Holy cow, it's just ridiculous. 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:47.760 This case is shameful. 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:51.560 My name is Lindsay Boney. I'm a lawyer at the 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:55.240 law firm Bradley Ariant Bolt Cummings. When I think about 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:57.600 this case, it's mind blowing to me. 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:01.280 My name is Carla Crowder. I'm a lawyer and executive 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:05.760 director at Alabama Appleseed Center for Law Injustice. This case 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:11.160 is stunning and this case is heartbreaking. 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:14.880 My name is Nick Gaety. I have been an active 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:19.720 lawyer in Birmingham since nineteen sixty four. We can do better, 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:21.600 and we need to do better. 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.160 Lots of people have known for a very long time 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:28.920 that this man is innocent. And he's still on death row. 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:33.880 Why does it take twenty five years? 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:38.680 These are just a few in the chorus of powerful 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:43.440 voices calling on the state to fix this. Lawyers from 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.680 all sides of the political spectrum are lending their support, 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:51.520 along with former prosecutors and judges, as well as Alabama 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:55.280 churches and faith leaders like Sister Helen Prajean. 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.800 Please God, with these efforts and people hearing this. 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.600 About too Forrest, his life will be saved. 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:10.400 Even death penalty supporter Bill Baxley, Alabama's former Attorney General, 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:11.920 has joined the fight. 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:16.880 I will add my voice or anything I can do, 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:21.760 because this is a situation that shouldn't be allowed to 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:27.400 exist another minute. 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:31.960 When Baxley reviewed to Forrest's case, he was so outraged 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:35.599 he wrote an op ed in The Washington Post that said, 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:40.480 an innocent man is trapped on Alabama's death row. 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:46.520 The only thing that I can see is to why 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:51.240 this kind of thing happened, was the victim was a 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:53.440 law enforcement laws. 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:01.960 To Forrest Johnson now has unpressed, scidented support, and it's 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:04.719 not just from all these people who believe he's innocent. 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:10.240 The current District Attorney of Jefferson County along with the 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:15.240 original prosecutor who sent him to death row. Both now 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:23.120 say to Forrest Johnson deserves a new trial. So why 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:50.440 is the State of Alabama still trying to kill him? 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:54.240 Do you he? My man? 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.160 That's may. 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:08.360 Sorrows stay. 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:14.040 List in this bas. 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:18.039 Tears. 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:23.560 I want to see. 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:40.360 Remblation. I want to know who you a'm reation in 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:49.440 this aspiration to the who's holding the stud. 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:52.360 Student? 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:56.800 Who's holding stand? 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:07.839 I'm Beth Shelburn. This is ear witness, Chapter eight, Bondage 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:15.320 to the law. Okay, how are you? 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:17.560 I'm alright, I'm good. 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:18.040 Yeah. 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:23.200 I'm meeting with District Attorney Danny Carr, but not at 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:26.760 his office in the courthouse. We're at the barber shop 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:30.280 he owns in Birmingham's Insley community, where he grew up. 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:36.240 From the Ansley community where we are today. I'm matriculated 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:38.240 through the Birmingham City school system. 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:44.880 The barbershop is old school tile floors, posters of hairstyles 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:49.200 on the walls, and a sign advertising ten dollars haircuts? 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:56.520 Can you talk while he's buzzing? I don't normally interview 0:07:56.600 --> 0:08:00.240 prosecutors while they're getting a haircut, but Danny car as 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:04.480 a busy man. In twenty eighteen, when he was elected 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:08.720 District Attorney of Jefferson County, he became the first black 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:12.800 man to hold the position. He now runs the same 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:16.960 office that argued for to Forest Johnson to be sentenced 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:21.600 to death for Deputy Bill Hardy's murder. But Danny Carr 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:25.680 wasn't part of to Forest's prosecution. He wasn't even a 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:30.240 lawyer yet when it happened. Danny Carr is different from 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:34.000 other das in a number of ways. He ran as 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:38.199 a change maker. He put together the first conviction review 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:42.199 unit in Jefferson County. The unit's job is to review 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:45.760 cases where the DA's office might have made some mistakes. 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:51.120 He's one of only three black das among the forty 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:56.160 two across Alabama. He grew up in a community that's 0:08:56.240 --> 0:09:02.320 been impacted by crime and mass incarceration. His family has 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:06.640 also been a victim of violence. The year he was 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:11.640 hired as a young prosecutor, Danny's younger brother, Jackxton, was murdered. 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:16.920 Danny named his barbershop D and Jay in his brother's memory. 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:21.719 D for Danny, J for Jackston. Can you kind of 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:25.280 walk me through your involvement in the to Forest Johnson case. 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:27.240 When did you first become aware of it? 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:29.920 I became aware of it when I was an assistant 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:34.079 DA conversations about it, but I didn't know true in 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:38.520 the facts of it. I just overheard different conversations varying 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:41.440 opinions about it. And then what happened. 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:45.360 Once Danny was elected as DA, he started hearing more 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:49.679 about to Forest's case as a possible wrongful conviction, and 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:53.439 the year after Danny was elected, to Forest's case was 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:57.000 back in court. This was the hearing I covered the 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:00.640 first time I reported on to Forest's case, where his 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:05.520 attorneys argued that Violet Ellison testified in pursuit of the 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:10.000 reward money and the state hid it. I saw Danny 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:12.920 Carr at the hearing, but he told me he wasn't 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.040 ready yet to comment on the case. 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:18.840 It's that I didn't know, you know, who was tending 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:20.839 truth of what was right what was wrong. I just 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:24.240 listened and it was apparent that if some of that 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:26.680 stuff was true, then it was concerning. 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:31.560 So after the hearing, Danny decided to conduct a full 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:36.640 review of to Forrest's conviction. For nine months, he read 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:40.000 through the trial transcripts as well as the documents that 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:45.120 prosecutors had claimed were misfiled. He was troubled by the 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.959 five thousand dollars reward payment given to Violet Ellison that 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:52.040 the jury didn't even know was a possibility. 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:56.760 Well, if that information was not disclosed, then the process 0:10:56.880 --> 0:11:00.240 was flawed, and the process was flawed, and then the 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:04.559 end result is not truly the end result, because to 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:07.680 get to the end result, the process has to be fair. 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:14.520 Danny also talked to people involved, including alibi witnesses, but 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:21.200 perhaps the most significant person, Danny Carr consulted the original prosecutor, 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:26.679 Jeff Wallace, the same prosecutor who asked two juries to 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:31.959 sentence to Forrest to death. It turns out Jeff Wallace 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:35.800 had his own questions about the credibility of his star witness, 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:39.760 Violet Ellison, going back fifteen years. 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:45.599 I observed something that triggered in my mind, indeed to 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:48.439 report this to the defense. I don't know if you 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:52.120 know about that or not. What did you observe after 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:54.800 the conviction and somebols. 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:59.240 Several years after to Forrest was convicted, Jeff said he 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.640 was passed through a courtroom during a trial of a 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:07.040 drug dealer. Jeff Wallace wasn't prosecuting the case. He just 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:09.400 needed to ask the bailiff a question. 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:14.280 And as I left the bailiff station, which of course 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:17.319 in the front of the courtroom, I'm walking out and 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:21.160 happening to notice in the spectators area on the front 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:27.200 row the defendant's wife being consoled by our chief witness 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:32.880 in the Johnson case, in Ellison, Miss Ellison. That's right 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:39.200 in my mind, that conduct was inconsistent with the picture 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:41.920 that I had of miss Ellison at the time of trial. 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:45.320 She seemed to me to be only a mother trying 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:47.960 to do the best thing for her daughter, and happened 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:55.199 to overhear a telephone conversation, and that record that the 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:59.000 notes that she made of that telephone conversation became important 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:03.640 in the trial of mister john as you know. So 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:09.280 her credibility as the citizen she was, I think was 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:12.960 important because she was the case. She is the case. 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:20.520 To be clear, I'm not sure what consoling a suspected 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:25.080 drug dealer's wife has to do with Violet Ellison's credibility 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:29.360 into Forrest's case, but Jeff said it left him with 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:34.839 an unsettling impression about his star witness, a realization that 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:37.440 there were things about her he didn't know. 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:45.720 So. 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:53.640 Seeing her being so close to the wife of a 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.720 man that everybody knew was a major drug dealer disturbed 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.920 in that image in my mind, I thought, well, I'm 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.559 going to report that to the out side, to the defense. 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:04.719 And he did. 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.160 In two thousand and seven, Jeff Wallace talked to to 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.960 Forest's legal team about what he saw. They looked into 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:15.440 the information, but so far it hasn't led to any 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:20.560 new legal claims for to Forest. Fast forward thirteen years 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:24.320 and Danny Carr calls on Jeff Wallace to talk about 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:29.000 the conviction of to Forest Johnson. Jeff shares his concerns 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:33.760 about Violet Ellison's credibility, and then he does something that 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:39.480 makes a major impression on Danny. Jeff Wallace says he 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:44.600 believes to Forest should be granted a new trial. This 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:48.760 incredible development pushes Danny to take public action. 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:52.320 Your job is not to get convictions. Your job is 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:53.160 to seek the truth. 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:57.920 But Danny has one more important call to make to 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:03.720 Deputy Bill Hardy's family. He braces himself. It's never easy 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.920 for a prosecutor to talk to a victim's family about 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:10.960 unsettling the conviction and their loved one's murder. But he 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:15.240 picks up the phone and calls Deputy Hardy's widow, Patricia 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:16.240 Diane Hardy. 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:18.760 And when I called her, she said, look, she said, 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:20.880 I know your mom. I know you, but knowing since 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:23.720 she was a little boy, she said, you know, I 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:27.240 trust you, and whatever decision you make, I'm fine with it. 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:31.880 But I trust you and you can't get any better. 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:36.920 Go yeah, And that's what you want from people, period. 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:44.200 And then Danny Carr does something extraordinary, something that almost 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:49.440 never happens. He files a brief with the Jefferson County Court, 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:54.760 writing that his duty to seek justice requires intervention in 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:59.400 the case of to Forrest Johnson. He asks Judge Pullyam 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:04.000 to row out to Forrest's conviction and order a new trial, 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:09.440 and he includes that the original prosecutor, Jeff Wallace, supports 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:12.880 this call for a new trial. Of all the capital 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.800 murder cases that you've looked at, you've tried, you've been 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:21.000 familiar with as DA, how do you see this case? 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:24.520 How would you describe it in the context of all 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:25.520 the cases you've seen. 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:28.520 I think it's the worst case. 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.600 I spoke with Jeff Wallace about his support for a 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:39.040 new trial. I think you joining the district attorney is 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:45.520 a powerful statement from a former prosecutor in a capital case. 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:49.800 I can't remember, in my reporting of over twenty years, 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:53.280 ever seeing that or hearing about it. 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:54.920 Oh, I'm sure I'm not the first. 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.560 Jeff seemed to want to downplay the significance of his 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:03.720 support for a new trial. But this is seriously rare. 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:07.960 I looked for other cases like this and reached out 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:13.200 to experts who study wrongful convictions. Nobody could remember a 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:17.200 death penalty case in any state where the original trial 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:22.360 prosecutor called for a new trial. I interviewed Jeff Wallace 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:27.080 three different times, with four hours of on the record conversations. 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:32.119 Jeff was accessible and generous with his time, but he 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:34.240 was also careful with his words. 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:40.720 I still am personally satisfied that the evidence showed to 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:45.240 Forest Johnson to be yuilty. Of course, my opinion is 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.359 based in a large part on the testimony of the 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:53.440 Violet Ellison that I saw at trial. But there's a 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:55.960 in my opinion, there's a reason to look at it again. 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:00.560 This is what I mean by careful. He says the 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:05.080 evidence at trial showed to Forrest to be guilty based 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:09.520 on Violet Ellison's testimony, but he also says the concern 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:13.840 he had about Violet Ellison's credibility is why he supports 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:18.160 the call for a new trial. After my first conversation 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:21.480 with Jeff Wallace in twenty twenty one, I did a 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:26.280 lot more investigating into Violet Ellison. I asked to speak 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:29.159 with Jeff again because I wanted to share everything that 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:34.840 I learned. We also found that, in addition to being 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:37.680 a witness in this case, Violet Ellison has been a 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:43.680 witness in four other criminal cases in Jefferson. 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:47.280 County after Johnson Couch, Before. 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:52.000 During and after, I tell Jeff about the other cases 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:55.359 where Violet Ellison was a witness for the state and 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:59.520 that the defense accused her of lying to police and 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:05.800 under oath. He listens politely, But what I really want 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:08.960 is for Jeff Wallace to hear some clips of what 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:13.639 people are saying about Violet Ellison, the star witness he 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:17.760 put on the stand, the same witness he now has 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:25.240 questions about, do you have any interest in listening to 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:25.960 what we found? 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:27.440 You don't? 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:31.960 I find that like astonishing? 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:33.760 I don't know. 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:36.160 Can you please, can you explain why you don't want 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:36.480 to hear. 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:40.200 What we found. I'm not the prosecuting attorney in the case, 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.040 or for that matter, of the defending attorney. Of course 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:46.960 I couldn't be. But oh. 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:50.920 Yeah, but Jeff, I mean, you tried this case and 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:53.800 you ask the jury to sentence him to death and 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:54.880 he's on death row. 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:00.480 That was the state of the evid when I was 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:01.200 standing on the court. 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:08.680 Run the evidence hasn't changed in your mind after what 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:09.320 we've told you. 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:14.040 No, I think evidence has change, but it's no longer 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:15.160 my responsibility. 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.840 In a way, He's right. The responsibility of all death 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:28.840 row cases after conviction falls to Alabama's Attorney General, an 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:33.720 elected position that represents the entire state, unlike district attorneys 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:38.159 who represent a single county. The current Attorney General in 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:42.840 Alabama is Steve Marshall. He could listen to Danny Carr 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:45.720 and Jeff Wallace and allow a new trial for to 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:50.760 Forrest Johnson, but instead, the AG's office calls this a 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:56.360 subjective opinion that does not raise an issue of extraordinary 0:20:56.480 --> 0:21:02.639 public importance or any compelling circumstances. Marshall's office is still 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:09.000 actively and aggressively fighting to Forest's appeals and seeking his execution. 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:20.760 These conflicting positions make me think of those big metal 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:24.840 grain silos that you see in the Midwest, with each 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:29.000 party in our criminal justice system in its own silo, 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:35.240 isolated from the opposing view, trapped in their official position. 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:40.800 I talk with Jeff Wallace about this dynamic. It does 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:46.320 seem like there are a lot of silos that people 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:53.480 are in in the system, and they stay in those silos. 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:55.400 Does that make sense? 0:21:55.920 --> 0:22:00.919 It does? And if a silo is that you cannot 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:05.360 climb out of, then that's where I am. I've told 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:08.080 you what I think if it were legal and it 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:10.560 were presented to me, Uh, would you or would you 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:12.680 not order a new trial? Mister Wallace, I've signed it 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:15.960 today and order a new trial. But the thing you're 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:20.399 calling a silo, my silo is a retired former prosecutor 0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:22.520 who happened to have been in charge of this case 0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:23.120 at one time. 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:26.679 So why can't you climb out of the silo? 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:31.920 What silo would I climb into? I can't be a 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:38.200 depellate judge, I can't be the defendant's attorney. I can't 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:40.840 be a juror, can't be the defendant. 0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:43.400 What if we just all climb out of our silos, 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:45.760 and nobody's in a silo anymore. If we're all just 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:48.119 kind of out in the open. 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:53.080 Well, the law has set up these silos and the 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:54.240 law is still in effect. 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:57.960 Yeah, there's this quote on the outside of the Jefferson 0:22:58.000 --> 0:22:59.560 County Courthouse. 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:02.080 That we're in bondage to the law in order that 0:23:02.160 --> 0:23:02.880 we may be free. 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:06.800 That's it. We are in bondage to the law in 0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:10.600 order that we may be free. It's a quote from 0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:14.600 Roman philosopher Cicero. Why do we have to be in 0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:16.760 bondage to something to be free? 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:20.200 Either we have laws or we don't. Which way do 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:20.600 you want it? 0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:25.200 I guess one thing that we've been thinking about is like, 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:31.960 what is the cost of that bondage? And is it 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:35.720 that sometimes you end up with situations like this? 0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:44.879 I sure hope not. But the law is the law. No, 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:46.920 one don't want to present me that piece of paper 0:23:47.480 --> 0:23:49.600 and ask me whether I would order a new trial. 0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:52.880 I'm in bondage to the law. 0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:04.720 You may see Jeff Wallace's support for a new trial 0:24:05.119 --> 0:24:08.800 as a half measure. He could call the case an 0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:13.840 injustice and take more accountability for his role into Forrest's conviction, 0:24:15.080 --> 0:24:18.720 but a trial prosecutor saying anything that calls a conviction 0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:24.919 into question is exceptional. There's no incentive for Jeff Wallace 0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:29.520 to say a word, no framework for prosecutors to voice doubt, 0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:35.680 or space for regrets to count, and yet Jeff Wallace 0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:39.080 still chose to speak up when he didn't have to 0:24:39.200 --> 0:24:52.600 say anything at all. In this project, we tried to 0:24:52.720 --> 0:24:55.879 answer the question of how an innocent man ended up 0:24:55.920 --> 0:25:00.200 on death row. We laid bare an investigation that was 0:25:00.440 --> 0:25:06.480 rushed to conclusion by tunnel vision and pressure to convict someone, anyone, 0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:10.639 for the murder of a deputy sheriff. This case shows 0:25:10.720 --> 0:25:15.760 us how young, marginalized people like Yolanda Chambers can be exploited, 0:25:16.440 --> 0:25:20.119 and how money is wielded as an incentive for vulnerable 0:25:20.200 --> 0:25:25.960 people to become ensnared with law enforcement. It also demonstrates 0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:30.280 the terrible consequences for people who can't afford to pay 0:25:30.800 --> 0:25:35.320 for the best criminal defense. So far, the courts have 0:25:35.480 --> 0:25:39.240 said there was nothing illegal about what the state did, 0:25:40.160 --> 0:25:44.960 presenting five different theories about who committed the murder, and 0:25:45.240 --> 0:25:50.520 paying the key witness behind closed doors, only admitting to 0:25:50.640 --> 0:25:56.479 this payment seventeen years later. This is how our system works. 0:25:57.400 --> 0:26:01.360 According to the courts that have examined to Forrest Johnson's conviction, 0:26:02.320 --> 0:26:06.640 it's not broken. It's working exactly as designed. 0:26:12.119 --> 0:26:16.359 They say that you presumed innocent until proven guilty, and that. 0:26:16.600 --> 0:26:20.320 Is the law former Attorney General Bill Baxley. 0:26:21.240 --> 0:26:30.000 But deep down, people don't believe somebody is innocent until 0:26:30.040 --> 0:26:33.840 they've proven guilty beyond regional doubt. They think that they 0:26:34.000 --> 0:26:36.320 had to do something or they wouldn't have been arrested 0:26:36.520 --> 0:26:38.400 and wouldn't have been indiced, and wouldn't be there. 0:26:39.560 --> 0:26:42.360 Not only do they presume people guilty, but they look 0:26:42.440 --> 0:26:43.720 at these people as expendable. 0:26:44.640 --> 0:26:49.000 Richard Jeffy, who represented Ardregis Ford, when. 0:26:48.920 --> 0:26:54.320 The system failed to Forrest Johnson, it betrayed all of us. 0:26:55.400 --> 0:27:00.119 To fores Johnson is as innocent as anyone could possibly be. 0:27:01.040 --> 0:27:07.639 Deputy Hardy would never want the wrong person to be 0:27:07.800 --> 0:27:09.080 convicted for his murder. 0:27:10.359 --> 0:27:14.840 After Jeffy's client, Ordregus Ford was acquitted, he lived a 0:27:15.000 --> 0:27:20.520 quiet life, mostly in Atlanta. His mother, Joyce Ford said 0:27:20.680 --> 0:27:23.760 to Forrest's conviction wade on her son. 0:27:25.000 --> 0:27:27.200 He never talked about it. He was strong. He never 0:27:27.320 --> 0:27:30.480 talked about it, but you know, you know he would 0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:34.240 get quiet at times. He will be rolling in the wheelchairs, 0:27:34.359 --> 0:27:37.760 go sit quiet with his head. Now, you know it 0:27:37.880 --> 0:27:41.320 took him a while to try to overcome it. You 0:27:41.480 --> 0:27:45.800 never overcome it, but so you know he had his days, 0:27:49.400 --> 0:27:52.560 you know, through it all, through the grace of God 0:27:53.760 --> 0:27:57.720 it too. It was a long, hard bell But I 0:27:57.760 --> 0:27:59.400 would never wish that on a mother. 0:28:03.040 --> 0:28:08.640 Ardregis died from health issues in twenty twenty one. His mom, 0:28:09.040 --> 0:28:12.920 Joyce Ford, died less than a year after we recorded 0:28:12.960 --> 0:28:30.720 this interview. I've been reporting onto Forest's case since twenty nineteen. 0:28:31.480 --> 0:28:35.680 I've interviewed dozens of people, but the one person I'd 0:28:35.760 --> 0:28:39.080 still most like to talk to is the very person 0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:44.800 I can't reach. Alabama's prison system doesn't allow people on 0:28:44.960 --> 0:28:49.640 death row to talk to journalists. To Forest's family has 0:28:49.680 --> 0:28:53.040 shared dozens of digital photos with me that I've kept 0:28:53.120 --> 0:28:56.880 in a folder on my laptop. There's to Forest as 0:28:56.920 --> 0:29:00.800 a baby wearing a tiny suit, as a skinny kid 0:29:01.080 --> 0:29:05.480 wearing a bow tie, and so many photos from visits 0:29:05.520 --> 0:29:09.320 at Holman Prison with his arms around his family. And 0:29:09.560 --> 0:29:12.720 I know the closest I can get to him is 0:29:12.920 --> 0:29:17.600 through the people he loves the most, his kids. 0:29:53.240 --> 0:29:56.320 Podcast and I've been, you know, writing about your dad's 0:29:56.400 --> 0:29:59.920 case for about two years now, so I'm so happy 0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:03.040 to finally see y'all and meet y'all and you get 0:30:03.120 --> 0:30:03.800 to hang out with you. 0:30:04.120 --> 0:30:08.440 Especially in October of twenty twenty one, I asked to 0:30:08.560 --> 0:30:11.320 Forest kids if we could all get together and talk. 0:30:12.000 --> 0:30:14.760 So we meet up on a Saturday afternoon at his 0:30:14.960 --> 0:30:20.000 oldest daughter, Shanee Pool's place. It's a light filled condo 0:30:20.240 --> 0:30:25.560 in downtown Birmingham. Her golden doodle named Banks, meanders around 0:30:26.040 --> 0:30:30.720