1 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: Last time on ear witness. 2 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 2: She was a very credible witness. 3 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 3: We believed her. Obviously, we believed her because we convicted him, 4 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 3: and it was on her testimony. 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 4: The only evidence supposedly they had against was this ear 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 4: witness who had never heard him speak before, who had 7 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 4: no idea who he was. 8 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 5: That is extremely strongly evidence Chefish believed. Of course, the 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 5: question becomes, so you believe that evidence? Well to believe 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 5: that evidence, she had to believe it's Ellison. 11 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: And so we're trying to get information on her. Her 12 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: name's Violet Ellison. Do you have an opinion about her 13 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: or have any any information that you could give us 14 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: about her. 15 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 6: I know she's ververy condicted. She's a very messy lady, 16 00:00:57,920 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 6: very messy. 17 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 5: I tell you one thing about my grandma. 18 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 7: She is a that's a true scam artist. 19 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 8: That's a true I hate to see it. 20 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 7: I know that's my grandmother, but that's a true scam 21 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:08,479 Speaker 7: auty death. 22 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 4: And I hate that this man could be innocent and 23 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 4: for five thousand dollars, he's on this for five hour 24 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 4: of dollars. 25 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: Near the intersection of Rosa Parks Avenue and Liberty Street 26 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: in Montgomery, Alabama, is a tiny red brick church outside 27 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: Saint Peter Ame. A large white banner is stretched twenty 28 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: five feet across the church's front lawn. The words It's 29 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: not too late to fix this mistake are written across 30 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: the banner in black and red letters. The mistake is 31 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: to forrest Johnson's conviction. The banner was created by an 32 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: organization called Greater Birmingham Ministries. This year, it has traveled 33 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: to eight different churches across Alabama to help raise awareness 34 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: about to Forest's case. Awareness that is growing. 35 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 5: Holy cow, it's just ridiculous. 36 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 3: This case is shameful. 37 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 9: My name is Lindsay Boney. I'm a lawyer at the 38 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 9: law firm Bradley Ariant Bolt Cummings. When I think about 39 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 9: this case, it's mind blowing to me. 40 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 3: My name is Carla Crowder. I'm a lawyer and executive 41 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 3: director at Alabama Appleseed Center for Law Injustice. This case 42 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 3: is stunning and this case is heartbreaking. 43 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 5: My name is Nick Gaety. I have been an active 44 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 5: lawyer in Birmingham since nineteen sixty four. We can do better, 45 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 5: and we need to do better. 46 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 3: Lots of people have known for a very long time 47 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 3: that this man is innocent. And he's still on death row. 48 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 3: Why does it take twenty five years? 49 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: These are just a few in the chorus of powerful 50 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: voices calling on the state to fix this. Lawyers from 51 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: all sides of the political spectrum are lending their support, 52 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: along with former prosecutors and judges, as well as Alabama 53 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: churches and faith leaders like Sister Helen Prajean. 54 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 8: Please God, with these efforts and people hearing this. 55 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 4: About too Forrest, his life will be saved. 56 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: Even death penalty supporter Bill Baxley, Alabama's former Attorney General, 57 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: has joined the fight. 58 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 10: I will add my voice or anything I can do, 59 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 10: because this is a situation that shouldn't be allowed to 60 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 10: exist another minute. 61 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: When Baxley reviewed to Forrest's case, he was so outraged 62 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: he wrote an op ed in The Washington Post that said, 63 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: an innocent man is trapped on Alabama's death row. 64 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 10: The only thing that I can see is to why 65 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 10: this kind of thing happened, was the victim was a 66 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 10: law enforcement laws. 67 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: To Forrest Johnson now has unpressed, scidented support, and it's 68 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: not just from all these people who believe he's innocent. 69 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: The current District Attorney of Jefferson County along with the 70 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: original prosecutor who sent him to death row. Both now 71 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: say to Forrest Johnson deserves a new trial. So why 72 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: is the State of Alabama still trying to kill him? 73 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 11: Do you he? My man? 74 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 12: That's may. 75 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 5: Sorrows stay. 76 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 2: List in this bas. 77 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 4: Tears. 78 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 5: I want to see. 79 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 12: Remblation. I want to know who you a'm reation in 80 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 12: this aspiration to the who's holding the stud. 81 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 8: Student? 82 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 7: Who's holding stand? 83 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: I'm Beth Shelburn. This is ear witness, Chapter eight, Bondage 84 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: to the law. Okay, how are you? 85 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 3: I'm alright, I'm good. 86 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 12: Yeah. 87 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: I'm meeting with District Attorney Danny Carr, but not at 88 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: his office in the courthouse. We're at the barber shop 89 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: he owns in Birmingham's Insley community, where he grew up. 90 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 6: From the Ansley community where we are today. I'm matriculated 91 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 6: through the Birmingham City school system. 92 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: The barbershop is old school tile floors, posters of hairstyles 93 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: on the walls, and a sign advertising ten dollars haircuts? 94 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: Can you talk while he's buzzing? I don't normally interview 95 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: prosecutors while they're getting a haircut, but Danny car as 96 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: a busy man. In twenty eighteen, when he was elected 97 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: District Attorney of Jefferson County, he became the first black 98 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: man to hold the position. He now runs the same 99 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: office that argued for to Forest Johnson to be sentenced 100 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: to death for Deputy Bill Hardy's murder. But Danny Carr 101 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: wasn't part of to Forest's prosecution. He wasn't even a 102 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: lawyer yet when it happened. Danny Carr is different from 103 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: other das in a number of ways. He ran as 104 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 1: a change maker. He put together the first conviction review 105 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: unit in Jefferson County. The unit's job is to review 106 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: cases where the DA's office might have made some mistakes. 107 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: He's one of only three black das among the forty 108 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: two across Alabama. He grew up in a community that's 109 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: been impacted by crime and mass incarceration. His family has 110 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: also been a victim of violence. The year he was 111 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: hired as a young prosecutor, Danny's younger brother, Jackxton, was murdered. 112 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: Danny named his barbershop D and Jay in his brother's memory. 113 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:21,719 Speaker 1: D for Danny, J for Jackston. Can you kind of 114 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: walk me through your involvement in the to Forest Johnson case. 115 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: When did you first become aware of it? 116 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 6: I became aware of it when I was an assistant 117 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 6: DA conversations about it, but I didn't know true in 118 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 6: the facts of it. I just overheard different conversations varying 119 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 6: opinions about it. And then what happened. 120 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: Once Danny was elected as DA, he started hearing more 121 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: about to Forest's case as a possible wrongful conviction, and 122 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 1: the year after Danny was elected, to Forest's case was 123 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: back in court. This was the hearing I covered the 124 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: first time I reported on to Forest's case, where his 125 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: attorneys argued that Violet Ellison testified in pursuit of the 126 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: reward money and the state hid it. I saw Danny 127 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: Carr at the hearing, but he told me he wasn't 128 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: ready yet to comment on the case. 129 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 6: It's that I didn't know, you know, who was tending 130 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 6: truth of what was right what was wrong. I just 131 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 6: listened and it was apparent that if some of that 132 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 6: stuff was true, then it was concerning. 133 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: So after the hearing, Danny decided to conduct a full 134 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: review of to Forrest's conviction. For nine months, he read 135 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: through the trial transcripts as well as the documents that 136 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: prosecutors had claimed were misfiled. He was troubled by the 137 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 1: five thousand dollars reward payment given to Violet Ellison that 138 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: the jury didn't even know was a possibility. 139 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 6: Well, if that information was not disclosed, then the process 140 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 6: was flawed, and the process was flawed, and then the 141 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 6: end result is not truly the end result, because to 142 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 6: get to the end result, the process has to be fair. 143 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: Danny also talked to people involved, including alibi witnesses, but 144 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: perhaps the most significant person, Danny Carr consulted the original prosecutor, 145 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 1: Jeff Wallace, the same prosecutor who asked two juries to 146 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: sentence to Forrest to death. It turns out Jeff Wallace 147 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: had his own questions about the credibility of his star witness, 148 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: Violet Ellison, going back fifteen years. 149 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,599 Speaker 5: I observed something that triggered in my mind, indeed to 150 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 5: report this to the defense. I don't know if you 151 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 5: know about that or not. What did you observe after 152 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 5: the conviction and somebols. 153 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: Several years after to Forrest was convicted, Jeff said he 154 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: was passed through a courtroom during a trial of a 155 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: drug dealer. Jeff Wallace wasn't prosecuting the case. He just 156 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: needed to ask the bailiff a question. 157 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 5: And as I left the bailiff station, which of course 158 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 5: in the front of the courtroom, I'm walking out and 159 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 5: happening to notice in the spectators area on the front 160 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 5: row the defendant's wife being consoled by our chief witness 161 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 5: in the Johnson case, in Ellison, Miss Ellison. That's right 162 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 5: in my mind, that conduct was inconsistent with the picture 163 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 5: that I had of miss Ellison at the time of trial. 164 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 5: She seemed to me to be only a mother trying 165 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 5: to do the best thing for her daughter, and happened 166 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 5: to overhear a telephone conversation, and that record that the 167 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 5: notes that she made of that telephone conversation became important 168 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 5: in the trial of mister john as you know. So 169 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 5: her credibility as the citizen she was, I think was 170 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 5: important because she was the case. She is the case. 171 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: To be clear, I'm not sure what consoling a suspected 172 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: drug dealer's wife has to do with Violet Ellison's credibility 173 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: into Forrest's case, but Jeff said it left him with 174 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:34,839 Speaker 1: an unsettling impression about his star witness, a realization that 175 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: there were things about her he didn't know. 176 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 11: So. 177 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 5: Seeing her being so close to the wife of a 178 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 5: man that everybody knew was a major drug dealer disturbed 179 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 5: in that image in my mind, I thought, well, I'm 180 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 5: going to report that to the out side, to the defense. 181 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:04,719 Speaker 7: And he did. 182 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, Jeff Wallace talked to to 183 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: Forest's legal team about what he saw. They looked into 184 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: the information, but so far it hasn't led to any 185 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: new legal claims for to Forest. Fast forward thirteen years 186 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: and Danny Carr calls on Jeff Wallace to talk about 187 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: the conviction of to Forest Johnson. Jeff shares his concerns 188 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: about Violet Ellison's credibility, and then he does something that 189 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: makes a major impression on Danny. Jeff Wallace says he 190 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: believes to Forest should be granted a new trial. This 191 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: incredible development pushes Danny to take public action. 192 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 6: Your job is not to get convictions. Your job is 193 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 6: to seek the truth. 194 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: But Danny has one more important call to make to 195 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: Deputy Bill Hardy's family. He braces himself. It's never easy 196 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: for a prosecutor to talk to a victim's family about 197 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: unsettling the conviction and their loved one's murder. But he 198 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: picks up the phone and calls Deputy Hardy's widow, Patricia 199 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: Diane Hardy. 200 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 6: And when I called her, she said, look, she said, 201 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 6: I know your mom. I know you, but knowing since 202 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 6: she was a little boy, she said, you know, I 203 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 6: trust you, and whatever decision you make, I'm fine with it. 204 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 6: But I trust you and you can't get any better. 205 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 6: Go yeah, And that's what you want from people, period. 206 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: And then Danny Carr does something extraordinary, something that almost 207 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: never happens. He files a brief with the Jefferson County Court, 208 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: writing that his duty to seek justice requires intervention in 209 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: the case of to Forrest Johnson. He asks Judge Pullyam 210 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: to row out to Forrest's conviction and order a new trial, 211 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: and he includes that the original prosecutor, Jeff Wallace, supports 212 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: this call for a new trial. Of all the capital 213 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: murder cases that you've looked at, you've tried, you've been 214 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: familiar with as DA, how do you see this case? 215 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: How would you describe it in the context of all 216 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: the cases you've seen. 217 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 6: I think it's the worst case. 218 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: I spoke with Jeff Wallace about his support for a 219 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: new trial. I think you joining the district attorney is 220 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: a powerful statement from a former prosecutor in a capital case. 221 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: I can't remember, in my reporting of over twenty years, 222 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: ever seeing that or hearing about it. 223 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 5: Oh, I'm sure I'm not the first. 224 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: Jeff seemed to want to downplay the significance of his 225 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: support for a new trial. But this is seriously rare. 226 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: I looked for other cases like this and reached out 227 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: to experts who study wrongful convictions. Nobody could remember a 228 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: death penalty case in any state where the original trial 229 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 1: prosecutor called for a new trial. I interviewed Jeff Wallace 230 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: three different times, with four hours of on the record conversations. 231 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: Jeff was accessible and generous with his time, but he 232 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: was also careful with his words. 233 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 5: I still am personally satisfied that the evidence showed to 234 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 5: Forest Johnson to be yuilty. Of course, my opinion is 235 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 5: based in a large part on the testimony of the 236 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 5: Violet Ellison that I saw at trial. But there's a 237 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 5: in my opinion, there's a reason to look at it again. 238 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: This is what I mean by careful. He says the 239 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: evidence at trial showed to Forrest to be guilty based 240 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: on Violet Ellison's testimony, but he also says the concern 241 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: he had about Violet Ellison's credibility is why he supports 242 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 1: the call for a new trial. After my first conversation 243 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: with Jeff Wallace in twenty twenty one, I did a 244 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: lot more investigating into Violet Ellison. I asked to speak 245 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 1: with Jeff again because I wanted to share everything that 246 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: I learned. We also found that, in addition to being 247 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: a witness in this case, Violet Ellison has been a 248 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: witness in four other criminal cases in Jefferson. 249 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 3: County after Johnson Couch, Before. 250 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: During and after, I tell Jeff about the other cases 251 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: where Violet Ellison was a witness for the state and 252 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: that the defense accused her of lying to police and 253 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: under oath. He listens politely, But what I really want 254 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: is for Jeff Wallace to hear some clips of what 255 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: people are saying about Violet Ellison, the star witness he 256 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: put on the stand, the same witness he now has 257 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: questions about, do you have any interest in listening to 258 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: what we found? 259 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 5: You don't? 260 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: I find that like astonishing? 261 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 5: I don't know. 262 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: Can you please, can you explain why you don't want 263 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: to hear. 264 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 5: What we found. I'm not the prosecuting attorney in the case, 265 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 5: or for that matter, of the defending attorney. Of course 266 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 5: I couldn't be. But oh. 267 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, but Jeff, I mean, you tried this case and 268 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: you ask the jury to sentence him to death and 269 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: he's on death row. 270 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 5: That was the state of the evid when I was 271 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 5: standing on the court. 272 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: Run the evidence hasn't changed in your mind after what 273 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: we've told you. 274 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 5: No, I think evidence has change, but it's no longer 275 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 5: my responsibility. 276 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: In a way, He's right. The responsibility of all death 277 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: row cases after conviction falls to Alabama's Attorney General, an 278 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: elected position that represents the entire state, unlike district attorneys 279 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 1: who represent a single county. The current Attorney General in 280 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: Alabama is Steve Marshall. He could listen to Danny Carr 281 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: and Jeff Wallace and allow a new trial for to 282 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: Forrest Johnson, but instead, the AG's office calls this a 283 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: subjective opinion that does not raise an issue of extraordinary 284 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 1: public importance or any compelling circumstances. Marshall's office is still 285 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: actively and aggressively fighting to Forest's appeals and seeking his execution. 286 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: These conflicting positions make me think of those big metal 287 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: grain silos that you see in the Midwest, with each 288 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: party in our criminal justice system in its own silo, 289 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: isolated from the opposing view, trapped in their official position. 290 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: I talk with Jeff Wallace about this dynamic. It does 291 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: seem like there are a lot of silos that people 292 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: are in in the system, and they stay in those silos. 293 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: Does that make sense? 294 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 5: It does? And if a silo is that you cannot 295 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:05,360 Speaker 5: climb out of, then that's where I am. I've told 296 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 5: you what I think if it were legal and it 297 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 5: were presented to me, Uh, would you or would you 298 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 5: not order a new trial? Mister Wallace, I've signed it 299 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 5: today and order a new trial. But the thing you're 300 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 5: calling a silo, my silo is a retired former prosecutor 301 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 5: who happened to have been in charge of this case 302 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 5: at one time. 303 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 1: So why can't you climb out of the silo? 304 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 5: What silo would I climb into? I can't be a 305 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 5: depellate judge, I can't be the defendant's attorney. I can't 306 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 5: be a juror, can't be the defendant. 307 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: What if we just all climb out of our silos, 308 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: and nobody's in a silo anymore. If we're all just 309 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 1: kind of out in the open. 310 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 5: Well, the law has set up these silos and the 311 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 5: law is still in effect. 312 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's this quote on the outside of the Jefferson 313 00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: County Courthouse. 314 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 5: That we're in bondage to the law in order that 315 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 5: we may be free. 316 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: That's it. We are in bondage to the law in 317 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: order that we may be free. It's a quote from 318 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: Roman philosopher Cicero. Why do we have to be in 319 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: bondage to something to be free? 320 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 5: Either we have laws or we don't. Which way do 321 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 5: you want it? 322 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: I guess one thing that we've been thinking about is like, 323 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: what is the cost of that bondage? And is it 324 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: that sometimes you end up with situations like this? 325 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 5: I sure hope not. But the law is the law. No, 326 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 5: one don't want to present me that piece of paper 327 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 5: and ask me whether I would order a new trial. 328 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 5: I'm in bondage to the law. 329 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: You may see Jeff Wallace's support for a new trial 330 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: as a half measure. He could call the case an 331 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: injustice and take more accountability for his role into Forrest's conviction, 332 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: but a trial prosecutor saying anything that calls a conviction 333 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 1: into question is exceptional. There's no incentive for Jeff Wallace 334 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: to say a word, no framework for prosecutors to voice doubt, 335 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: or space for regrets to count, and yet Jeff Wallace 336 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: still chose to speak up when he didn't have to 337 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: say anything at all. In this project, we tried to 338 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: answer the question of how an innocent man ended up 339 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: on death row. We laid bare an investigation that was 340 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: rushed to conclusion by tunnel vision and pressure to convict someone, anyone, 341 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: for the murder of a deputy sheriff. This case shows 342 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: us how young, marginalized people like Yolanda Chambers can be exploited, 343 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: and how money is wielded as an incentive for vulnerable 344 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: people to become ensnared with law enforcement. It also demonstrates 345 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: the terrible consequences for people who can't afford to pay 346 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: for the best criminal defense. So far, the courts have 347 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: said there was nothing illegal about what the state did, 348 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: presenting five different theories about who committed the murder, and 349 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: paying the key witness behind closed doors, only admitting to 350 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:56,479 Speaker 1: this payment seventeen years later. This is how our system works. 351 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 1: According to the courts that have examined to Forrest Johnson's conviction, 352 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 1: it's not broken. It's working exactly as designed. 353 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 10: They say that you presumed innocent until proven guilty, and that. 354 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: Is the law former Attorney General Bill Baxley. 355 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 10: But deep down, people don't believe somebody is innocent until 356 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 10: they've proven guilty beyond regional doubt. They think that they 357 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 10: had to do something or they wouldn't have been arrested 358 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 10: and wouldn't have been indiced, and wouldn't be there. 359 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 9: Not only do they presume people guilty, but they look 360 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 9: at these people as expendable. 361 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: Richard Jeffy, who represented Ardregis Ford, when. 362 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 9: The system failed to Forrest Johnson, it betrayed all of us. 363 00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 9: To fores Johnson is as innocent as anyone could possibly be. 364 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 9: Deputy Hardy would never want the wrong person to be 365 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 9: convicted for his murder. 366 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: After Jeffy's client, Ordregus Ford was acquitted, he lived a 367 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: quiet life, mostly in Atlanta. His mother, Joyce Ford said 368 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: to Forrest's conviction wade on her son. 369 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 8: He never talked about it. He was strong. He never 370 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 8: talked about it, but you know, you know he would 371 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 8: get quiet at times. He will be rolling in the wheelchairs, 372 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 8: go sit quiet with his head. Now, you know it 373 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 8: took him a while to try to overcome it. You 374 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 8: never overcome it, but so you know he had his days, 375 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 8: you know, through it all, through the grace of God 376 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 8: it too. It was a long, hard bell But I 377 00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 8: would never wish that on a mother. 378 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 1: Ardregis died from health issues in twenty twenty one. His mom, 379 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: Joyce Ford, died less than a year after we recorded 380 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: this interview. I've been reporting onto Forest's case since twenty nineteen. 381 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: I've interviewed dozens of people, but the one person I'd 382 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: still most like to talk to is the very person 383 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: I can't reach. Alabama's prison system doesn't allow people on 384 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: death row to talk to journalists. To Forest's family has 385 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: shared dozens of digital photos with me that I've kept 386 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: in a folder on my laptop. There's to Forest as 387 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: a baby wearing a tiny suit, as a skinny kid 388 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: wearing a bow tie, and so many photos from visits 389 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: at Holman Prison with his arms around his family. And 390 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: I know the closest I can get to him is 391 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: through the people he loves the most, his kids. 392 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 13: Podcast and I've been, you know, writing about your dad's 393 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 13: case for about two years now, so I'm so happy 394 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 13: to finally see y'all and meet y'all and you get 395 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 13: to hang out with you. 396 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: Especially in October of twenty twenty one, I asked to 397 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: Forest kids if we could all get together and talk. 398 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: So we meet up on a Saturday afternoon at his 399 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: oldest daughter, Shanee Pool's place. It's a light filled condo 400 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: in downtown Birmingham. Her golden doodle named Banks, meanders around 401 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: wagging his tail at everyone, and his kids immediately start 402 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: to share memories of their dad. 403 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 8: I remember going and real Eliza how short he was 404 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 8: though he's so short when we took a picture on 405 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 8: side of each other. 406 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 2: He's so short, you like tower omer daddy, and I'm 407 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 2: his same height. I'm Shane Pool. I am the oldest 408 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 2: daughter of the Forest. 409 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: Shane has his smile. 410 00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 5: I'm Maurice Myers, and I'm the four oldest, the farest. 411 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: His son Maurice Myers has his eyes and nose. 412 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 7: I'm Tremayan Pierre. I'm the oldest cub. 413 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: His oldest child, Tremaine Perry has his voice and laugh. 414 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 2: And I'm a curriolalla in him the baby cub. 415 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: And Akiria, who goes by Muffin. His youngest looks like 416 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: she could be a twin to t Forest and his 417 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: younger years. To Forest has one other son named Robbie Foster, 418 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: but he was unable to join us for this gathering 419 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: because he was living in Colorado at the time. He 420 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: also looks like his father's twin. An inside joke is 421 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: these siblings all share a common attribute from their dad. 422 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 5: My head. Man. 423 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 7: We all got these big heads. 424 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: If you haven't known, forehead. 425 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 7: That's what's really big, is the forehead. He blessed us 426 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 7: all that. That's why I grew my hat. So I 427 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 7: know I was the oldest old I saw maybe a 428 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 7: lot more than they did, you know what I mean, 429 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 7: But it I knew what was going on, like when 430 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 7: I stopped seeing 'em. You know what I'm saying, Cause 431 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 7: they told me, like right off the bat, So how 432 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 7: old were you when he bru about six or seven? 433 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: Okay, this is Tremaine, the oldest cub. 434 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 7: I was getting ready to to ask my mom to 435 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 7: take me into my pop's house, like I wanna go, 436 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 7: s I wanna go with my daddy. This weekend, and 437 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 7: she's like, you won't be able to go this weekend 438 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 7: cause you won't he not gonna be there, So like, 439 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 7: what you mean, well, he at I wait on to 440 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 7: come back. She's like, Nah, it might be a minute 441 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 7: before he come back. And that's when I end up 442 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 7: calling my grandma and she just let me know what 443 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 7: was going on just right then, and that, like that 444 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 7: kid kind of killed my spirits, you know what I'm saying. 445 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 7: I don't. I'm thinking like if he ain't did nothing 446 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 7: wrong and while he gone, I could never get an 447 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 7: answer for that. Nobody could ever answer that, you know 448 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 7: what I'm saying. So just knowing that this man is 449 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 7: setting behind bars twenty plus years for something that he 450 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 7: didn't do, like that's heartbreaking. 451 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 452 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 7: Yeah, you are to think about how life would be 453 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 7: if it hadn't happen, if things could be reversed. You 454 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 7: think about a lot of stuff, but you can never 455 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 7: get that, you know what I'm saying. 456 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: Shaney also remembers trying to put the pieces together about 457 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: why she had to go to the prison to see 458 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: her dad. 459 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 2: So I'm home with my mom and there I go 460 00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 2: visit my dad. But I didn't realize that that was 461 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 2: normal until we get into grade school and I see 462 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 2: children with their two parents home, and so now I'm like, okay, 463 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 2: this is something that's not This is not adding up, 464 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: something is not right, so you know, help me understand 465 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 2: what's happening. And then it's like, okay, well he's away, 466 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 2: but he's innocent, So what is innocent mean. 467 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 3: I'm a kid. 468 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 2: I don't understand what that means. He's there for something 469 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 2: that he didn't do. Okay, well, why can't he just 470 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 2: come home then? And so then I begin to get 471 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 2: frustrated with him because I'm like, okay, well, if you 472 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 2: didn't do it, then you could just come home. But 473 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 2: clearly it doesn't work that way. 474 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 5: And then as I got. 475 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: Older, even though their father wasn't at home to Forrest's 476 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: kids didn't stop seeing him. They would get in the 477 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 1: car with their grandmother, Donna, to Forrest's mother to make 478 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: the two hundred and ten mile drive from Birmingham to 479 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,919 Speaker 1: Holman Prison, three hours each way. 480 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 11: I just remember I always riding there's all right, and 481 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 11: I was so young, I was like, it's almost like 482 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 11: you're driving the floora going down. 483 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 7: There is in the middle of nowhere is no really 484 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,839 Speaker 7: no roll like to lead to anywell out there. Yeah, 485 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:15,320 Speaker 7: we took those trips. 486 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 1: In Alabama, visits with men on death row are done 487 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: in the visiting yard, the same area to Forrest met 488 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: with his attorney Tie. It's called the yard, but it's indoors, 489 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: like a big cafeteria lined with vending machines and Grandma. 490 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 2: So what I remember is quarters. Grandma used to have a. 491 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 7: Sage, the freezer, bags full of cords and nickels, all 492 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 7: the change we can get. 493 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: But before they got into the prison to see their 494 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,919 Speaker 1: dad with the big bag of quarters so everyone could 495 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,919 Speaker 1: get their favorite snacks and candy from the prison yard 496 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: vending machines. To four kids had to go through prison 497 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 1: security where guards searched them and patted them down. 498 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 2: Look at thinking back on them up. And I didn't 499 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 2: really think about this until now, just kind of how 500 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 2: violating it kind of was with them because they had 501 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 2: to search us like the same way. Yeah, and we 502 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 2: were children basically touching all. 503 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 12: Love you, and I was just like, this is a 504 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 12: little weird. 505 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 5: I'm not comfortable with your touching me. 506 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 11: I mean, I'm just a kid, I'm not bringing nothing 507 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 11: in you. 508 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 5: So it was just real violating. 509 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 11: I was like, I really don't want to come back, 510 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 11: but I want to so I can see my dad. 511 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: I just don't want you to touch me. 512 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 2: But and we couldn't, you know, touch him whenever we 513 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 2: were in there. So of course, you know, you want 514 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 2: to sit on your dad's lap, you want to lay 515 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 2: on them and hug on them, and you can't do that. 516 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 2: You have to keep your distance from each other. And 517 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 2: like Tremaine said, there's never enough time. It always seems 518 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 2: like it's just we just got here, turn back around 519 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 2: and get on the road trip again. 520 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: The visits were just a few hours once a month 521 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: at most, but it's where and how they got to 522 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 1: know their father. Their relationships with their father are marked 523 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 1: by both his absence and his presence. They admire his strength, 524 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: the way he loves to hear about their lives when 525 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: they talk on the phone, and how he never makes 526 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: them feel like their problems are small. 527 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 2: When he calls you and you just want to talk 528 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 2: about the good things. And he's lived these life tuus, 529 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 2: these alles, So now what's really going on? Like I 530 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 2: can hear it in your voice, okay, princess, So I'm 531 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 2: not right. And I'd never like to tell him anything 532 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 2: bad because he's just there's nothing that he could do. 533 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 2: But he's like, this is my way of being a 534 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 2: father to you. This is how I can parent you. 535 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,439 Speaker 2: To allow me to do that, And then you feel 536 00:37:58,480 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 2: so much better after you talk to him about it. 537 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: Oh, he's gonna make you laugh. 538 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 2: He's gonna make you laugh. 539 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 5: I'd be like, Okay, I'm not mad anymore. Yeah, thank you. 540 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 2: Right, And then it's hard to be mad, you know, 541 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 2: it's hard to be angry or mad or kind of 542 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 2: self sulk. 543 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 1: Because and you think about his situation, right, and he. 544 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,320 Speaker 2: Always asks, so what you eat? I never want to 545 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 2: tell him what I ate for dinner, never because it's 546 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:26,720 Speaker 2: I hate telling. 547 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 7: I know he can't eat the same, you know what 548 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 7: I'm saying. 549 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, but he wants to know what you made. 550 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 2: He wants to know or he wants like what we 551 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 2: did today, Like if you if you would be on 552 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 2: the phone with Tremado Maurice. Yeah, I talked to Tremaana Maurice, 553 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,840 Speaker 2: uh the other day and they were out somewhere, but 554 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 2: he won't say they were. 555 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: He like we were so like he's. 556 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 2: Living through my brothers, like whatever they do, he thinks 557 00:38:47,480 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 2: like he's out with them. Yeah, we're human bodies like 558 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 2: we are have been affected. These are men that missed 559 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 2: out on their father raising them. These he's missed the 560 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 2: birth of multiple grandchildren. He's miss milestones us completing college 561 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 2: and getting our first big girl jobs and purchasing our 562 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 2: first homes. Like these are really important things that he 563 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 2: has missed out on. And so you have space and 564 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,240 Speaker 2: you have time between all of us that we literally 565 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 2: cannot get back. Like there's nothing that we could do 566 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,359 Speaker 2: about it. And so at the least that you could 567 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:39,759 Speaker 2: do is take uh a be accountable for what was done. 568 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 2: And I think that that's all we're asking for at 569 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 2: this point. We're not trying to point the finger at anybody. 570 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 2: We just we want true justice to be served and 571 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 2: we just want him to come home and for there 572 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 2: to be some type of accountability held. And it's frustrating, 573 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 2: it's disheartening, but it's like, well, we just gotta keep 574 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 2: fighting because we gotta fight for daddy. We gotta fight 575 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 2: to get Daddy home. I think we bypassed of pointing 576 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 2: the finger, and you know, we're still hurting, we're still angry, 577 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 2: we're still confused. Have said, we have a lot of emotions, 578 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:09,839 Speaker 2: but we just want him to come home. 579 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: Why is to Forest Johnson still on Alabama's death row? 580 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: Why is he still locked in a cell when so 581 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 1: many people, including the prosecutor who argued to put him there, 582 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:32,360 Speaker 1: are calling for a new trial. In early October twenty 583 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 1: twenty three, the United States Supreme Court announced it would 584 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 1: not review to Forrest Johnson's case, but to Forest's legal 585 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 1: team continues to fight for him. They have appeals pending 586 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 1: in both state and federal courts. This is where we 587 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: find ourselves unable to tell you how this story ends. 588 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: I plan to stay here with de Forest, his family, 589 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: his children, his lawyers, and everyone else who believes in 590 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: him will continue to hold him in the light of truth. 591 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 11: This is a free call from before. 592 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,799 Speaker 1: An incarcerated individual at Alabama Department of Corrections. That call 593 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: is not private. It will be recorded and maybe Migerg 594 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:26,919 Speaker 1: you may start the conversation now. 595 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 2: Hey Daddy, Hey Brinda, Hi, what you doing. 596 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 4: I'm good day, It. 597 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 2: Was good long today. Still trying to get used to. 598 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: To Forrest calls his family from prison whenever he can, 599 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 1: but his oldest daughter, Shaney also keeps his cards and 600 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,759 Speaker 1: letters in a case Swiss shoe box under her bed. 601 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 2: If I had to describe this card, there is a 602 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:11,240 Speaker 2: beehive on the front with a few bees buzzing around, 603 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 2: and it's dated January fifth, two thousand and three. 604 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 1: Like all the people who love to Forrest Johnson, his 605 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:29,320 Speaker 1: five kits and fifteen grandkits, his mother Donna, his aunts, uncles, 606 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: and cousins, they read the words he sent them over 607 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,760 Speaker 1: the years when they need to hold him close. 608 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 2: It reads, I love you and can't wait to see 609 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 2: you and hold you in my arms again. You underlined 610 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 2: are the reason Daddy has a spirit to get up 611 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,239 Speaker 2: every day and has hope that there would be a 612 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 2: better day up ahead for me. And he says, Shaney, 613 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,719 Speaker 2: Daddy wants you to be a good young lady and 614 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 2: too what your mother asks of you. I love you 615 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,399 Speaker 2: and I hope to see you again real soon. 616 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 12: Be good? 617 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:10,879 Speaker 3: All right. 618 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,760 Speaker 1: To learn more about the fight to free to Forest Johnson, 619 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,399 Speaker 1: sign up for updates and learn how you can help, 620 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:39,040 Speaker 1: visit the website created by Greater Birmingham Ministries for to Forest. 621 00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:44,800 Speaker 1: It's to Forest Johnson dot com and a special thanks 622 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 1: to the family of to Forest Johnson, who have generously 623 00:43:48,760 --> 00:44:10,160 Speaker 1: shared so much for this series. Ear Witness is a 624 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:14,360 Speaker 1: production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal 625 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 1: Company Number One. Executive producers are Jason Flom, Jeff Kempler, 626 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 1: Kevin Wardis, and me Beth Shelburne. The investigative reporting for 627 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:29,759 Speaker 1: this series was done by Me and MARAA McNamara. Producers 628 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:35,320 Speaker 1: are MARAA McNamara, Hannah Beal, and Jackie Polly. Kara Kornhaber 629 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 1: is our senior producer. Britt Spangler is our sound designer. 630 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 1: Additional story editing from Marie Sutton, fact checkhelp from Catherine Newhan, 631 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:51,000 Speaker 1: and special thanks to to Forrest Johnson's legal defense team. 632 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: You can follow the show on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and 633 00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,800 Speaker 1: Twitter at Lava for Good. To see behind the scenes 634 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,879 Speaker 1: content from our investigation, visit Lava for goood dot com 635 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:05,560 Speaker 1: slash ear Witness 636 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:21,200 Speaker 5: M