1 00:00:14,836 --> 00:00:29,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hi, I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlowe Thomas, and 2 00:00:29,636 --> 00:00:32,556 Speaker 1: we're going on a series of double dates to find 3 00:00:32,596 --> 00:00:41,156 Speaker 1: out what makes a marriage last. To meet Patricia Cornwell 4 00:00:41,196 --> 00:00:44,276 Speaker 1: and Stacy Gruber, we only had to walk as far 5 00:00:44,356 --> 00:00:47,676 Speaker 1: as the front door of our apartment. They had plans 6 00:00:47,716 --> 00:00:50,196 Speaker 1: to be in Manhattan, so it saved us a trip 7 00:00:50,276 --> 00:00:54,796 Speaker 1: to Boston. Patricia, of course, is the world famous crime novelist. 8 00:00:55,116 --> 00:00:58,716 Speaker 1: More than thirty years ago, she turned murder and forensics 9 00:00:58,836 --> 00:01:02,836 Speaker 1: into the hottest ticket in fiction. Now it's everywhere. Stacy 10 00:01:03,156 --> 00:01:07,916 Speaker 1: no slouch herself, is a neuroscience researcher at Harvard's McLean 11 00:01:08,076 --> 00:01:13,076 Speaker 1: Hospital and an associate professor of psychiatry. She's got bright 12 00:01:13,236 --> 00:01:17,276 Speaker 1: red hair, and she had Patricia's attention from the get go. 13 00:01:17,756 --> 00:01:21,596 Speaker 1: I literally almost never went home after meeting Stacy. She 14 00:01:21,676 --> 00:01:24,996 Speaker 1: spent two nights there. Never before I went back with 15 00:01:25,156 --> 00:01:28,236 Speaker 1: an instant attraction like that. We had to hear the 16 00:01:28,276 --> 00:01:31,516 Speaker 1: whole story. So once we settled into our living room, 17 00:01:31,756 --> 00:01:35,596 Speaker 1: they took us back to the beginning. In two thousand 18 00:01:35,636 --> 00:01:38,796 Speaker 1: and three, My publisher, Phyllis Grant, who was at that 19 00:01:38,876 --> 00:01:40,996 Speaker 1: time the head of Putnam, so she took me out 20 00:01:40,996 --> 00:01:45,236 Speaker 1: to dinner and she said, Okay, you started the forensic trend. 21 00:01:45,556 --> 00:01:48,156 Speaker 1: What's the next trend? And I said, I don't know, 22 00:01:48,196 --> 00:01:49,476 Speaker 1: but I want to be the one who does it. 23 00:01:50,556 --> 00:01:52,396 Speaker 1: And so I started thinking, well, if you're not going 24 00:01:52,476 --> 00:01:54,916 Speaker 1: to do forensics, that's going to be the brain. So 25 00:01:54,956 --> 00:01:57,556 Speaker 1: I thought, I'll maybe get more into the why of 26 00:01:57,556 --> 00:01:59,676 Speaker 1: what people do and not so much to how and 27 00:01:59,756 --> 00:02:01,876 Speaker 1: how you figured it out. And I thought, where would 28 00:02:01,916 --> 00:02:05,276 Speaker 1: you go? You go to Harvard and so through some contacts, 29 00:02:05,276 --> 00:02:07,316 Speaker 1: so I ended up at Stacy's Hospital and they were 30 00:02:07,356 --> 00:02:10,476 Speaker 1: touring me around, and I wanted to know were yep, 31 00:02:10,596 --> 00:02:14,476 Speaker 1: the brain and neuroscience and you were one of on 32 00:02:14,516 --> 00:02:16,716 Speaker 1: the Dog and Pony Show. I was, and it was 33 00:02:16,756 --> 00:02:21,156 Speaker 1: in her MR lab and literally when she walked in 34 00:02:21,196 --> 00:02:24,916 Speaker 1: the room, I felt like an electrical disturbance. I felt 35 00:02:24,916 --> 00:02:28,476 Speaker 1: like the air moved. And it wasn't like, oh my god, 36 00:02:28,556 --> 00:02:30,716 Speaker 1: she's so beautiful or anything like that. It was not 37 00:02:30,756 --> 00:02:34,076 Speaker 1: like it was more like, there's something about this person. 38 00:02:34,156 --> 00:02:37,716 Speaker 1: I have to know her. So at the end of 39 00:02:37,716 --> 00:02:40,516 Speaker 1: the tour, I said to the PR person taking me around, 40 00:02:40,516 --> 00:02:42,436 Speaker 1: I said, I don't remember the name of that red 41 00:02:42,476 --> 00:02:45,836 Speaker 1: haired you know, neuroscience person. But I have a few 42 00:02:45,836 --> 00:02:48,116 Speaker 1: more questions for her. It's the oldest trick in the book. 43 00:02:49,076 --> 00:02:53,116 Speaker 1: I didn't know anything except that there was something about Stacy. 44 00:02:53,236 --> 00:02:55,756 Speaker 1: I have to know this person. I cannot let her 45 00:02:56,036 --> 00:02:57,676 Speaker 1: get away without me trying to get to know her. 46 00:02:57,756 --> 00:03:00,756 Speaker 1: Oh while, so, but that's my something she had said. No, 47 00:03:00,876 --> 00:03:03,596 Speaker 1: it is before she had even said anything. It was 48 00:03:03,636 --> 00:03:07,356 Speaker 1: like her energy. I felt this energy that that it 49 00:03:07,436 --> 00:03:11,636 Speaker 1: took got my attention. And it's very rare that happens 50 00:03:11,636 --> 00:03:14,156 Speaker 1: with people, of course, you know, and there's a connection. 51 00:03:14,396 --> 00:03:16,396 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean you're gonna date them, but it means 52 00:03:16,396 --> 00:03:18,476 Speaker 1: you're gonna do something or they're going to kill you. 53 00:03:18,676 --> 00:03:24,996 Speaker 1: So that happened, howe you know. So at McLain Hospital, 54 00:03:25,116 --> 00:03:28,596 Speaker 1: we often have VIPs come through and philanthropists, all sorts 55 00:03:28,596 --> 00:03:31,036 Speaker 1: of folks come through. Very often. I'm asked to help 56 00:03:31,036 --> 00:03:32,876 Speaker 1: out and sort of do these dog and pony shows. 57 00:03:32,916 --> 00:03:36,076 Speaker 1: And you know, I will never forget that day, actually, 58 00:03:36,076 --> 00:03:38,796 Speaker 1: because I was very impressed with the questions that you asked. 59 00:03:39,076 --> 00:03:43,316 Speaker 1: These were not the typical types of queries that most 60 00:03:43,316 --> 00:03:46,756 Speaker 1: people make when they come. So that was the first 61 00:03:46,756 --> 00:03:49,036 Speaker 1: thing that struck me. And she's extraordinary, just in her 62 00:03:49,036 --> 00:03:53,636 Speaker 1: ability to grasp things. And I remember finishing our interview 63 00:03:53,636 --> 00:03:54,916 Speaker 1: and I went back down to my office and I 64 00:03:54,916 --> 00:03:56,876 Speaker 1: was actually cleanly up to leave because I had plans 65 00:03:56,876 --> 00:03:58,556 Speaker 1: that evening. And then I got a phone call from 66 00:03:58,596 --> 00:04:01,316 Speaker 1: Public Affairs saying she has more questions. Do you have 67 00:04:01,316 --> 00:04:03,996 Speaker 1: any more time? And I'm looking going, okay, how many 68 00:04:03,996 --> 00:04:06,516 Speaker 1: more questions could she have? Sure? Send her back. And 69 00:04:06,596 --> 00:04:08,156 Speaker 1: so she did come back, and I think we talked 70 00:04:08,196 --> 00:04:11,716 Speaker 1: for quite a while, and then there was the inevitable 71 00:04:12,116 --> 00:04:14,636 Speaker 1: you know, would you like to discuss this over dinner? 72 00:04:14,676 --> 00:04:16,756 Speaker 1: And for whatever reason, I don't know why, I thought 73 00:04:16,756 --> 00:04:21,236 Speaker 1: to myself, yeah, I would. Here's the funny part. She 74 00:04:21,276 --> 00:04:23,916 Speaker 1: would not get in my limousine. She had a big 75 00:04:24,036 --> 00:04:27,316 Speaker 1: stretch limousine that, by the way, everybody in the hospital noticed. Everybody, 76 00:04:27,356 --> 00:04:31,316 Speaker 1: this is not the most unobtrusive thing, right, everybody just 77 00:04:31,356 --> 00:04:33,396 Speaker 1: about want to get into the car. Well, I didn't know. Look, 78 00:04:33,396 --> 00:04:35,356 Speaker 1: I'm an do from you know, New York, New Jersey. 79 00:04:35,396 --> 00:04:39,036 Speaker 1: We don't trust anybody, So I think that's terfect that 80 00:04:39,116 --> 00:04:41,276 Speaker 1: she's no I'm teasing, but I thought, you know, I 81 00:04:41,276 --> 00:04:43,876 Speaker 1: should just go and meet her. I get in the car, 82 00:04:44,036 --> 00:04:46,636 Speaker 1: drive to her hotel. I pull up and there she is. 83 00:04:46,676 --> 00:04:48,316 Speaker 1: Like I walked in, I was at the desk. I 84 00:04:48,356 --> 00:04:50,276 Speaker 1: turned around. There she was right behind this, remember the 85 00:04:50,276 --> 00:04:52,716 Speaker 1: big bowl of apples, right behind the apples, and I thought, 86 00:04:52,756 --> 00:04:55,196 Speaker 1: there she is, just sitting in waiting. So yeah, we 87 00:04:55,236 --> 00:04:57,516 Speaker 1: spent the next three days. Every night we did something, 88 00:04:57,596 --> 00:05:01,196 Speaker 1: and then the third one we talked all night long. Well, 89 00:05:01,276 --> 00:05:05,116 Speaker 1: let's be honest, so that first time, So that first 90 00:05:05,196 --> 00:05:06,756 Speaker 1: night I took her to dinner. We went to dinner, 91 00:05:06,956 --> 00:05:08,676 Speaker 1: and we talked and talked and talked, and we had 92 00:05:08,676 --> 00:05:11,516 Speaker 1: a very even about three am, just talking in the car, 93 00:05:11,796 --> 00:05:14,156 Speaker 1: talking in front of her, in front of my yeah, 94 00:05:14,156 --> 00:05:17,516 Speaker 1: in front of my hotel. The chemical thing too, and 95 00:05:17,556 --> 00:05:20,356 Speaker 1: there was certainly something there that was absolutely compelling, right, 96 00:05:20,396 --> 00:05:22,876 Speaker 1: and there's this bizarre connection you don't really want to 97 00:05:22,876 --> 00:05:25,956 Speaker 1: stop talking, you know, um, which I think is is 98 00:05:25,956 --> 00:05:29,636 Speaker 1: really rather magical. I just know there's just something. She 99 00:05:29,676 --> 00:05:31,716 Speaker 1: was very sweet and very kind of let's go upstairs 100 00:05:31,716 --> 00:05:33,556 Speaker 1: and chat, and I said no. We just kept driving around. 101 00:05:33,756 --> 00:05:40,076 Speaker 1: Remember it's like a sixteen year old boy on a date. 102 00:05:40,116 --> 00:05:43,796 Speaker 1: And then to the front door, drove around the circle 103 00:05:43,796 --> 00:05:45,916 Speaker 1: of the hotel and talked and talked and when did 104 00:05:45,916 --> 00:05:49,556 Speaker 1: you realize there was love here? I mean, or whatever 105 00:05:49,676 --> 00:05:51,676 Speaker 1: thing for me? I think I knew by the time 106 00:05:51,716 --> 00:05:53,836 Speaker 1: I was leaving there on the after staying up all 107 00:05:53,956 --> 00:05:56,876 Speaker 1: night long, I knew something unusual, but I didn't really 108 00:05:56,876 --> 00:05:58,836 Speaker 1: know how she felt. I thought she might just want 109 00:05:58,836 --> 00:06:01,476 Speaker 1: to be friends. But whatever it is, we need to 110 00:06:01,516 --> 00:06:04,596 Speaker 1: know each other right, you know. And so you didn't 111 00:06:04,596 --> 00:06:09,156 Speaker 1: discuss your sexual status. I think we danced around a 112 00:06:09,156 --> 00:06:11,316 Speaker 1: lot of that the first nime, for sure, the first night. 113 00:06:11,436 --> 00:06:14,156 Speaker 1: The second night was a little different intention question, But 114 00:06:14,156 --> 00:06:16,156 Speaker 1: then I think you get more of the questions where 115 00:06:16,196 --> 00:06:18,636 Speaker 1: you were getting really getting to know each other, and 116 00:06:18,636 --> 00:06:20,476 Speaker 1: so then you're going to start talking about your past 117 00:06:20,556 --> 00:06:22,876 Speaker 1: relationships and all that sort of thing. You were married 118 00:06:23,796 --> 00:06:27,756 Speaker 1: and you weren't no equal opportunity employer. I was married 119 00:06:27,756 --> 00:06:29,116 Speaker 1: to a man and I'm married to a one. I 120 00:06:29,116 --> 00:06:31,116 Speaker 1: think it's just only fair. I think, so I don't 121 00:06:31,156 --> 00:06:33,876 Speaker 1: want anybody to feel left out. I know. What I 122 00:06:33,916 --> 00:06:36,156 Speaker 1: think is interesting about the two of you is that 123 00:06:36,196 --> 00:06:39,956 Speaker 1: you really are you know, mind and body. I mean, 124 00:06:39,996 --> 00:06:43,036 Speaker 1: there you were in a morgue and there you are 125 00:06:43,236 --> 00:06:45,956 Speaker 1: and with the mind, as I thought, what an interesting 126 00:06:46,796 --> 00:06:50,516 Speaker 1: thing that you've this one right here she went. She's 127 00:06:50,556 --> 00:06:52,716 Speaker 1: been to the Morgue several times now, she'll go and 128 00:06:53,316 --> 00:06:56,036 Speaker 1: for She'll stand in front of me and it's like, 129 00:06:56,116 --> 00:06:58,436 Speaker 1: I'm like, because I really don't like it. Don't tell 130 00:06:58,476 --> 00:07:00,676 Speaker 1: anybody that I hate the Morgue and I can't stand 131 00:07:00,716 --> 00:07:02,316 Speaker 1: all that stuff. But I've had to do it for 132 00:07:02,436 --> 00:07:05,396 Speaker 1: years to do it for your research. Yes, right, let's 133 00:07:05,436 --> 00:07:08,996 Speaker 1: be clear, but yeah, for you worked. You worked. That's 134 00:07:09,116 --> 00:07:11,676 Speaker 1: why I did it, to do the research so that 135 00:07:11,716 --> 00:07:15,076 Speaker 1: as a journalist the greatest profession, right, you know it 136 00:07:15,316 --> 00:07:17,996 Speaker 1: used to be. But no, I started out in journalism, 137 00:07:17,996 --> 00:07:19,836 Speaker 1: then I did a biography. Then I wanted to switch 138 00:07:19,876 --> 00:07:22,476 Speaker 1: to fiction because I've been a cop reporter. But I've 139 00:07:22,476 --> 00:07:25,156 Speaker 1: always had a journalistic approach to what i do, which 140 00:07:25,196 --> 00:07:27,236 Speaker 1: is why I'm at Stacey, because I go out and 141 00:07:27,236 --> 00:07:31,756 Speaker 1: do the research. But she's she'll do anything anything. Well, 142 00:07:31,756 --> 00:07:33,516 Speaker 1: how did you decide that that was the kind of 143 00:07:33,516 --> 00:07:36,196 Speaker 1: story you wanted to tell? Was that the Yes, and 144 00:07:36,236 --> 00:07:37,876 Speaker 1: I would get to the crime scene and they take 145 00:07:37,916 --> 00:07:39,756 Speaker 1: the body away, and I would and I go, what 146 00:07:39,796 --> 00:07:42,636 Speaker 1: are they doing with it? I want to know? I 147 00:07:42,796 --> 00:07:46,396 Speaker 1: want to know because I wanted to have a forensic pathologist. 148 00:07:46,436 --> 00:07:47,956 Speaker 1: I wanted to have all that in there because no 149 00:07:47,956 --> 00:07:50,436 Speaker 1: one had ever written about it beyond Quincy. Oh wow, 150 00:07:50,596 --> 00:07:53,836 Speaker 1: So I said, you got to immerse yourself. But all 151 00:07:53,876 --> 00:07:58,516 Speaker 1: of it is. It's you know, we're very compatible this 152 00:07:58,556 --> 00:08:01,476 Speaker 1: way because we it's what you call having a seeking mind. 153 00:08:01,756 --> 00:08:03,756 Speaker 1: Like we can be driving somewhere and then I'm talking 154 00:08:03,796 --> 00:08:06,196 Speaker 1: too much. It's your turn, and I do that anyway. 155 00:08:06,236 --> 00:08:07,876 Speaker 1: But we'll both look at something and say, I wonder 156 00:08:07,916 --> 00:08:10,276 Speaker 1: how that got to? What happened? Did that? It looks 157 00:08:10,316 --> 00:08:14,476 Speaker 1: at what else noticed? We wonder the same kinds of things. 158 00:08:14,756 --> 00:08:17,396 Speaker 1: We'll look at each other and we recognize the same 159 00:08:17,396 --> 00:08:19,356 Speaker 1: thing that just passed us on a sidewalk and the goal. 160 00:08:19,436 --> 00:08:22,716 Speaker 1: Did you see that? You see that? But meanwhile everybody 161 00:08:22,716 --> 00:08:24,356 Speaker 1: else just walks past. They don't notice it at all, 162 00:08:24,436 --> 00:08:26,516 Speaker 1: And I don't understand that. Do you help each other 163 00:08:26,556 --> 00:08:30,196 Speaker 1: with your work? She certainly helps me with mine. We 164 00:08:30,476 --> 00:08:33,396 Speaker 1: sit around and invent things, gadgets and stuff that go 165 00:08:33,596 --> 00:08:35,436 Speaker 1: had a lot of fun over the years, that's sure. 166 00:08:35,796 --> 00:08:38,556 Speaker 1: She helps me with things that she's an expert in well. 167 00:08:38,756 --> 00:08:40,636 Speaker 1: And so I write about science, and you certainly have 168 00:08:40,716 --> 00:08:42,596 Speaker 1: helped me with what I do for sure. I mean 169 00:08:42,636 --> 00:08:44,596 Speaker 1: my career has sort of taken a little bit of 170 00:08:44,636 --> 00:08:48,356 Speaker 1: a different turn in the last few years and what so, 171 00:08:48,756 --> 00:08:52,316 Speaker 1: you know, being a neuroscience or in psychiatry more generally 172 00:08:53,036 --> 00:08:55,716 Speaker 1: has shifted to having a very clear focus in the 173 00:08:55,716 --> 00:08:59,476 Speaker 1: therapeutic strategies of exploiting cannabis or cannabinoids. So I spend 174 00:08:59,516 --> 00:09:01,676 Speaker 1: a lot of time with medical cannabis patients. We started 175 00:09:01,676 --> 00:09:04,676 Speaker 1: the only program in the country looking at the long 176 00:09:04,796 --> 00:09:08,276 Speaker 1: term effects of medical cannabis or cannabinoids for health benefits. 177 00:09:09,116 --> 00:09:11,956 Speaker 1: I want, I am, but we have this one word, 178 00:09:11,956 --> 00:09:13,756 Speaker 1: and we need anything that comes from the plant. And 179 00:09:13,796 --> 00:09:15,556 Speaker 1: I'm here to tell you that there are constituents from 180 00:09:15,556 --> 00:09:18,316 Speaker 1: the plant that will never intoxicate you and have tremendous 181 00:09:18,316 --> 00:09:23,156 Speaker 1: health benefits. But it's hard to that's tremendous CBD, so 182 00:09:23,196 --> 00:09:24,636 Speaker 1: one of them. So I have the only study in 183 00:09:24,636 --> 00:09:26,676 Speaker 1: the country that looks it's a double blind clinical trial 184 00:09:26,756 --> 00:09:29,356 Speaker 1: to look at CBD a high CBD very low t 185 00:09:29,436 --> 00:09:32,876 Speaker 1: HC product for patients with anxiety. Because my feeling is 186 00:09:32,916 --> 00:09:35,836 Speaker 1: we can help people live better, more satisfying lives. So 187 00:09:36,036 --> 00:09:39,876 Speaker 1: you know, in terms of being supportive and being invested 188 00:09:39,876 --> 00:09:43,556 Speaker 1: and actually literally and figuratively invested, you know, money to 189 00:09:43,636 --> 00:09:46,196 Speaker 1: her project. She certainly has, and I'm very supportive of 190 00:09:46,236 --> 00:09:48,996 Speaker 1: it because I'm I've seen it. She comes home and 191 00:09:49,036 --> 00:09:52,036 Speaker 1: I hear the stories about the patients and and you know, 192 00:09:53,276 --> 00:09:56,076 Speaker 1: there's it's it's it's really a miraculous thing. And I'm 193 00:09:56,076 --> 00:09:58,836 Speaker 1: also it's really difficult when you work in something that 194 00:09:58,876 --> 00:10:02,876 Speaker 1: can be so grossly misunderstood. It's it's incredibly polarizing and 195 00:10:03,116 --> 00:10:06,196 Speaker 1: stigmat I mean, people really have a very clear, sometimes 196 00:10:06,356 --> 00:10:08,796 Speaker 1: incorrect idea of what it is. And this program has 197 00:10:08,836 --> 00:10:12,396 Speaker 1: really skyrocketing, but it never would have been anything without 198 00:10:12,516 --> 00:10:15,836 Speaker 1: Patricia's interest or investment and belief. Did you have any 199 00:10:17,276 --> 00:10:19,356 Speaker 1: I don't know how the world is right now, because 200 00:10:19,556 --> 00:10:21,396 Speaker 1: you know, I'm in show business, where anything goes. I 201 00:10:21,516 --> 00:10:25,036 Speaker 1: have no idea. But when you were at McLean and 202 00:10:25,156 --> 00:10:26,756 Speaker 1: you and you met a woman that you fell in 203 00:10:26,756 --> 00:10:28,956 Speaker 1: love with, DoD they care about any of that? Did 204 00:10:28,956 --> 00:10:31,556 Speaker 1: you have any obstacles there? So you know, I was 205 00:10:31,596 --> 00:10:34,636 Speaker 1: pretty quiet actually about my life before that, And as 206 00:10:34,636 --> 00:10:36,756 Speaker 1: an undergraduate, I went to music school and I went 207 00:10:36,796 --> 00:10:39,116 Speaker 1: to a regular university, and it was pretty At music 208 00:10:39,156 --> 00:10:42,676 Speaker 1: school anything went right. But I think at McLean, I 209 00:10:42,676 --> 00:10:44,916 Speaker 1: had pretty I had a pretty low profile in terms 210 00:10:44,956 --> 00:10:48,356 Speaker 1: of my personal life. That did change. People started to 211 00:10:48,396 --> 00:10:51,436 Speaker 1: notice when this big, stretched limousine started to spend time there. Well, 212 00:10:51,436 --> 00:10:53,836 Speaker 1: the first time I came to pick you up to 213 00:10:54,076 --> 00:10:56,156 Speaker 1: go anywhere, the first time she let me actually pick 214 00:10:56,156 --> 00:10:58,196 Speaker 1: her up. It was when I came back to bring 215 00:10:58,196 --> 00:10:59,756 Speaker 1: her to New York the next week, and I picked 216 00:10:59,756 --> 00:11:02,716 Speaker 1: you up in a helicopter. I'm a helicopter pilot. So oh, 217 00:11:02,756 --> 00:11:06,156 Speaker 1: you were flying helicop first time that I was flying with. Yes, 218 00:11:06,676 --> 00:11:08,716 Speaker 1: So she says, well, I'll come get you in the helicopter. Well, 219 00:11:08,756 --> 00:11:11,636 Speaker 1: this is like any average date. Sure, of course, like 220 00:11:11,716 --> 00:11:13,676 Speaker 1: every other person that picks me up. I think, oh, sure, 221 00:11:13,716 --> 00:11:16,836 Speaker 1: that's fine. Why do you play a helicopter? And I 222 00:11:16,956 --> 00:11:19,956 Speaker 1: got my license back in nineteen ninety nine because my 223 00:11:20,076 --> 00:11:22,676 Speaker 1: character Lucy was I decided to make a helicopter pilot. 224 00:11:22,716 --> 00:11:25,676 Speaker 1: And I love helicopters when I've been flown in them 225 00:11:25,676 --> 00:11:28,396 Speaker 1: for other things, So I decided to learn how I 226 00:11:28,436 --> 00:11:30,796 Speaker 1: just wanted to fly. I still, do you know you 227 00:11:30,916 --> 00:11:33,836 Speaker 1: made a huge accommodation to move to Boston just to 228 00:11:33,876 --> 00:11:37,116 Speaker 1: be with Stacy, right, But I did kind of get 229 00:11:37,196 --> 00:11:39,316 Speaker 1: rid of everything and move and move my whole life 230 00:11:39,636 --> 00:11:42,836 Speaker 1: you've been together when you did that. It started immediately. 231 00:11:43,436 --> 00:11:45,196 Speaker 1: It started with me trying to find a place to 232 00:11:45,196 --> 00:11:47,756 Speaker 1: stay up in Boston so I could work up there 233 00:11:47,796 --> 00:11:49,636 Speaker 1: on a book and get to know Stacy better. But 234 00:11:49,676 --> 00:11:52,156 Speaker 1: then very quickly we just looked and then we found 235 00:11:52,156 --> 00:11:54,716 Speaker 1: a place and moved in together. I moved into your 236 00:11:54,756 --> 00:11:58,876 Speaker 1: house while we were looking around, and you were pretty positive, 237 00:11:59,436 --> 00:12:01,956 Speaker 1: you know, you just know what you feel? Was that 238 00:12:02,036 --> 00:12:05,156 Speaker 1: kind of scary? Yes, I wouldn't say scary. I would 239 00:12:05,156 --> 00:12:08,556 Speaker 1: say it was very unusual, a little oh what about you? 240 00:12:08,636 --> 00:12:12,436 Speaker 1: What come? Vdations did you make? So I think, looking back, 241 00:12:13,196 --> 00:12:17,796 Speaker 1: you know it was. It was an unbelievable sort of 242 00:12:17,796 --> 00:12:20,516 Speaker 1: whirlwind kind of thing that happened very quickly, wouldn't you say? 243 00:12:20,996 --> 00:12:22,876 Speaker 1: Very very quickly, and things all of a sudden we're 244 00:12:22,836 --> 00:12:25,636 Speaker 1: set into motion. And when I first went to Stacy's house, 245 00:12:25,836 --> 00:12:28,076 Speaker 1: when we were just hardly starting to see each other, 246 00:12:28,276 --> 00:12:30,236 Speaker 1: I went through and did a security check, and I 247 00:12:30,236 --> 00:12:32,436 Speaker 1: had a Burgler alarm put in, I had privacy hedge, 248 00:12:32,436 --> 00:12:34,836 Speaker 1: I had a gate. I mean I did at her house. 249 00:12:34,876 --> 00:12:37,436 Speaker 1: I mean she hardly even knows me. No, no, no, no, 250 00:12:37,716 --> 00:12:39,716 Speaker 1: why did you do that because she was not living 251 00:12:39,716 --> 00:12:42,036 Speaker 1: in a safe way. She was living in a beautiful 252 00:12:42,076 --> 00:12:44,836 Speaker 1: place and had done really well when you live with 253 00:12:44,916 --> 00:12:48,716 Speaker 1: a crime writer. I had, I had just I had 254 00:12:48,796 --> 00:12:51,036 Speaker 1: just from finished redoing that house, and we were just 255 00:12:51,276 --> 00:12:56,116 Speaker 1: considering this this uh security system and that yeah, we 256 00:12:56,116 --> 00:13:01,436 Speaker 1: we we you know, it was an unusual thing to 257 00:13:01,476 --> 00:13:03,196 Speaker 1: have someone come in and say, look, you know, here's 258 00:13:03,236 --> 00:13:04,516 Speaker 1: what you need to have, this, this, this, this, and 259 00:13:04,556 --> 00:13:06,156 Speaker 1: I thought, the more, I'm paying for it, and we're 260 00:13:06,156 --> 00:13:08,116 Speaker 1: doing it now. And then I had to deal with 261 00:13:08,116 --> 00:13:09,956 Speaker 1: somebody that worked for her and that actually, we're not 262 00:13:09,996 --> 00:13:11,716 Speaker 1: doing it that way. You can pay for this. I'm 263 00:13:11,756 --> 00:13:13,796 Speaker 1: paying for this. We're not going to do it this way, 264 00:13:14,156 --> 00:13:15,876 Speaker 1: which and it worked, it worked out okay. But I 265 00:13:15,876 --> 00:13:19,036 Speaker 1: think it's so funny that you, of all people, I mean, 266 00:13:19,036 --> 00:13:21,796 Speaker 1: you're known for being this fantastic crime writer. She knows 267 00:13:21,836 --> 00:13:24,196 Speaker 1: every crime that can happen. I do, and I'm gonna 268 00:13:24,196 --> 00:13:26,076 Speaker 1: make sure it doesn't happen to us. It's best I can. 269 00:13:28,796 --> 00:13:42,756 Speaker 1: We'll have more after a quick break. We're back to 270 00:13:42,796 --> 00:13:47,436 Speaker 1: our conversation with Patricia Cornwell and Stacy Gruber. When we 271 00:13:47,556 --> 00:13:50,276 Speaker 1: left off, Stacy was describing what it's like when a 272 00:13:50,316 --> 00:13:53,756 Speaker 1: famous crime writer moves in my way of life, the 273 00:13:53,796 --> 00:13:56,996 Speaker 1: way of life that I knew previously was, I would say, gone, 274 00:13:57,076 --> 00:14:00,316 Speaker 1: it's gone. Um no, that's over. Listen. She went from 275 00:14:00,556 --> 00:14:03,316 Speaker 1: living driving her own car, living in her own house, 276 00:14:03,356 --> 00:14:05,556 Speaker 1: having no alarm system, just living like a normal person, 277 00:14:05,676 --> 00:14:07,516 Speaker 1: to living on a place where you have arm guard, 278 00:14:07,556 --> 00:14:10,636 Speaker 1: living on the promise. Not because I'm cookie, but because 279 00:14:10,676 --> 00:14:12,836 Speaker 1: I've had issues in the past, and and I'll be 280 00:14:12,916 --> 00:14:15,356 Speaker 1: darned if anybody's going to bug us, you know, or 281 00:14:15,476 --> 00:14:17,556 Speaker 1: come up there. But I had to get I had 282 00:14:17,596 --> 00:14:19,196 Speaker 1: to mean she's kind of like the way that a 283 00:14:19,196 --> 00:14:22,036 Speaker 1: lot of people live in Los Angeles where you've got 284 00:14:22,036 --> 00:14:25,796 Speaker 1: to be careful because because we're on this big, big property. Right, 285 00:14:25,836 --> 00:14:28,716 Speaker 1: so she has she has firearms. I had to get 286 00:14:28,756 --> 00:14:30,436 Speaker 1: license to carry a firearm. I had to learn to 287 00:14:30,436 --> 00:14:32,156 Speaker 1: write the motors. I did all sorts of things, right, 288 00:14:32,316 --> 00:14:34,596 Speaker 1: These are not we weren't running around the guns on us, 289 00:14:35,876 --> 00:14:37,796 Speaker 1: they were locked in. We're no, we're not like gun 290 00:14:37,796 --> 00:14:41,436 Speaker 1: crazy people. Not gun crazy people. But you also inherited 291 00:14:41,516 --> 00:14:44,956 Speaker 1: a life a person who drew attention in ways that 292 00:14:45,036 --> 00:14:47,516 Speaker 1: had not before. That's right. So everything's about your day 293 00:14:47,556 --> 00:14:49,956 Speaker 1: to day life everything about your day to day life 294 00:14:50,036 --> 00:14:53,516 Speaker 1: changes everything. Your profile is completely different. I had people 295 00:14:53,516 --> 00:14:55,756 Speaker 1: before couldn't put up with that. They thought they could 296 00:14:55,756 --> 00:14:57,796 Speaker 1: put up with it, and then when it really got 297 00:14:57,836 --> 00:15:01,236 Speaker 1: going and it threatened their sense of autonomy and power, 298 00:15:01,356 --> 00:15:04,636 Speaker 1: and and then you're going, you know, you're really having issues. 299 00:15:04,716 --> 00:15:06,956 Speaker 1: And so she put up, She's put you put up 300 00:15:06,956 --> 00:15:09,596 Speaker 1: a lot. You still do? You still do? So what 301 00:15:09,636 --> 00:15:13,516 Speaker 1: made you decide to get married? I well, that one 302 00:15:14,276 --> 00:15:17,836 Speaker 1: you go ahead. I just was the distance between the 303 00:15:17,956 --> 00:15:21,836 Speaker 1: legality of marriage and a year and a half maybe 304 00:15:21,836 --> 00:15:23,476 Speaker 1: have two thousand and four, I think it became legal. 305 00:15:23,676 --> 00:15:26,436 Speaker 1: So we and we got married two thousand and six 306 00:15:26,716 --> 00:15:28,836 Speaker 1: February two thousand and six. Week got married because we well, 307 00:15:28,876 --> 00:15:32,956 Speaker 1: we met in July of two thousand and four. I 308 00:15:33,076 --> 00:15:36,356 Speaker 1: basically I just told her we were getting married. There 309 00:15:36,396 --> 00:15:39,116 Speaker 1: was no asking. I said, is there something I don't know? 310 00:15:40,316 --> 00:15:41,636 Speaker 1: I don't want to get married. I want to make 311 00:15:41,636 --> 00:15:43,676 Speaker 1: this legal. I mean, I said, it's this is not 312 00:15:43,716 --> 00:15:46,756 Speaker 1: a romantic question, it's it's legal question. It's a contract thing. 313 00:15:47,076 --> 00:15:50,636 Speaker 1: I think we should do this. I don't want it, 314 00:15:52,316 --> 00:15:53,876 Speaker 1: That's what I said. And I said, when you go 315 00:15:54,036 --> 00:15:56,596 Speaker 1: do a JP in Province town and get and just 316 00:15:56,636 --> 00:15:58,916 Speaker 1: do it. Actually, what she said was, as she called 317 00:15:58,956 --> 00:16:03,636 Speaker 1: my office, can you just get that set up? And literally, 318 00:16:03,676 --> 00:16:05,596 Speaker 1: can can you just get that set up? You know, 319 00:16:05,716 --> 00:16:09,356 Speaker 1: sort of like dinner resurgations or maybe a fight. I 320 00:16:09,396 --> 00:16:10,836 Speaker 1: can get that set up. And so I don't know 321 00:16:10,916 --> 00:16:13,036 Speaker 1: how to do any of that. I don't even been married. 322 00:16:13,036 --> 00:16:15,396 Speaker 1: I've been married before and it was the big thing. 323 00:16:15,476 --> 00:16:18,516 Speaker 1: It was the dress and and the bride'smaids, and it 324 00:16:18,556 --> 00:16:22,596 Speaker 1: was the church and all three hundred people or whatever. 325 00:16:22,676 --> 00:16:24,716 Speaker 1: I don't want any of that again. And this is 326 00:16:25,076 --> 00:16:26,876 Speaker 1: this is different. I said, I just want us to 327 00:16:26,916 --> 00:16:30,396 Speaker 1: be together. Let's just go make it. Let's just get 328 00:16:30,396 --> 00:16:32,676 Speaker 1: married and get that. Can we get that done? I 329 00:16:32,716 --> 00:16:35,036 Speaker 1: just had made a decision that this was it, this 330 00:16:35,116 --> 00:16:38,076 Speaker 1: is who I want to spend my life with. And furthermore, 331 00:16:38,276 --> 00:16:40,316 Speaker 1: I didn't tell my lawyers, and there was no prenup, 332 00:16:40,956 --> 00:16:44,516 Speaker 1: make sure commitment. All the more, we were about to 333 00:16:44,556 --> 00:16:47,556 Speaker 1: get married. Both of our business managers said you should 334 00:16:47,556 --> 00:16:49,756 Speaker 1: get prenups, and we both said, that's kind of betting 335 00:16:49,796 --> 00:16:51,756 Speaker 1: against ourselves. So I'm not going to do that. It 336 00:16:51,916 --> 00:16:54,276 Speaker 1: might be a disparity and what I earned and what 337 00:16:54,396 --> 00:16:57,436 Speaker 1: she earns. But the value that she's added to my life, 338 00:16:57,476 --> 00:17:00,836 Speaker 1: including economically, because you're smart with money, and I'm not. Um. 339 00:17:01,556 --> 00:17:05,116 Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I would never want to quibble about something. Anyway. 340 00:17:04,436 --> 00:17:06,756 Speaker 1: We didn't tell. We didn't tell anybody. We actually went 341 00:17:06,796 --> 00:17:09,956 Speaker 1: and did it. Eloped. We eloped, which turns out to 342 00:17:09,956 --> 00:17:13,036 Speaker 1: be a Grouper family tradition. My mother eloped, and my 343 00:17:13,116 --> 00:17:16,036 Speaker 1: grandmother and grandfather. May they rest in peace, eloped. Some 344 00:17:16,076 --> 00:17:18,156 Speaker 1: people were disappointed not to have been involved. I had 345 00:17:18,236 --> 00:17:20,996 Speaker 1: to tell you I am not that unhappy about it, 346 00:17:20,996 --> 00:17:23,076 Speaker 1: because it turns out I didn't think I would ever 347 00:17:23,116 --> 00:17:26,836 Speaker 1: be married either. I just didn't, and taking these vows, 348 00:17:27,356 --> 00:17:31,676 Speaker 1: I was surprisingly I felt surprisingly emotional for some reason. 349 00:17:31,676 --> 00:17:34,236 Speaker 1: It just sort of snuck up. But it didn't expect it. 350 00:17:34,796 --> 00:17:37,316 Speaker 1: I didn't expect all through our wedding. And I was 351 00:17:37,316 --> 00:17:38,916 Speaker 1: the one who ever wanted to be married, but I 352 00:17:38,956 --> 00:17:40,916 Speaker 1: didn't expect that. And I think it was because of 353 00:17:40,956 --> 00:17:43,036 Speaker 1: this approach that we both sort of had, you know, 354 00:17:43,076 --> 00:17:44,996 Speaker 1: let's get it done, let's go to this. All of 355 00:17:45,036 --> 00:17:47,156 Speaker 1: a sudden, it sort of hit me what it meant, 356 00:17:47,396 --> 00:17:50,116 Speaker 1: and I think that I won't ever forget that. It 357 00:17:50,196 --> 00:17:52,476 Speaker 1: was one of those things that things don't often sneak 358 00:17:52,556 --> 00:17:53,996 Speaker 1: up behind me and whapped me right over the head. 359 00:17:54,036 --> 00:17:55,996 Speaker 1: But that did, and I didn't, and I thought, oh, 360 00:17:56,076 --> 00:17:59,436 Speaker 1: thank god, no one else is because almost descried just now. 361 00:17:59,476 --> 00:18:01,916 Speaker 1: You know. So I don't know how you felt, but 362 00:18:01,956 --> 00:18:04,236 Speaker 1: that's certainly how I felt. It very emotional. Well, I've 363 00:18:04,236 --> 00:18:05,956 Speaker 1: been it was a big deal because I've been married 364 00:18:05,996 --> 00:18:08,236 Speaker 1: once before, and if you, the thing is, if you, 365 00:18:08,516 --> 00:18:11,636 Speaker 1: if you've had traditional marriage first. And by the way, 366 00:18:11,676 --> 00:18:13,236 Speaker 1: the first time I got married, I thought that was 367 00:18:13,276 --> 00:18:14,836 Speaker 1: going to last forever. I mean, I didn't do it 368 00:18:14,876 --> 00:18:17,036 Speaker 1: because I thought I should. I was only like, I mean, 369 00:18:17,116 --> 00:18:19,516 Speaker 1: he'd been my professor since I was nineteen years old 370 00:18:19,916 --> 00:18:24,876 Speaker 1: and so, but the thing is, to me, it was 371 00:18:24,876 --> 00:18:26,956 Speaker 1: the opposite thing. I realized. I thought it is a 372 00:18:26,996 --> 00:18:28,956 Speaker 1: big deal because I have done it before, and it 373 00:18:29,116 --> 00:18:31,556 Speaker 1: is a big deal and it's important. But what I 374 00:18:31,636 --> 00:18:33,756 Speaker 1: don't care about is what I didn't care about in 375 00:18:33,796 --> 00:18:36,916 Speaker 1: Wooden today is all the ceremony involved at all. The hooplaw. 376 00:18:37,116 --> 00:18:39,076 Speaker 1: I don't care about that at all. Were zero hooplaw, 377 00:18:39,516 --> 00:18:43,396 Speaker 1: were hoopla free. I love that they were no fuss 378 00:18:43,436 --> 00:18:46,516 Speaker 1: about it. With Patricia's rolodex, they could have had all 379 00:18:46,596 --> 00:18:50,116 Speaker 1: kinds of famous people at their wedding, including Blaharbah and 380 00:18:50,156 --> 00:18:54,436 Speaker 1: George Bush. Remember they'd spent a memorable weekend with the 381 00:18:54,476 --> 00:18:57,476 Speaker 1: Bushes at Kenny Bunkport, and Barbara put us in separate 382 00:18:57,476 --> 00:19:00,116 Speaker 1: bedrooms in the guesthouse and yes, don't you even think 383 00:19:00,156 --> 00:19:05,556 Speaker 1: about visiting. However, they have other guests visiting, a couple 384 00:19:05,716 --> 00:19:07,956 Speaker 1: who had a third with them, a gentleman who had 385 00:19:07,956 --> 00:19:10,036 Speaker 1: his arm in a cast, lovely guy from m I 386 00:19:10,116 --> 00:19:14,236 Speaker 1: t with a broken arm. His room connected to my 387 00:19:14,356 --> 00:19:16,916 Speaker 1: room through a bathroom that was the common so that 388 00:19:16,996 --> 00:19:18,796 Speaker 1: was all roight. So if he went out in the 389 00:19:18,836 --> 00:19:21,316 Speaker 1: wrong door, he could have climbed into bed space would 390 00:19:22,716 --> 00:19:25,436 Speaker 1: let me tell it? So what does she do? So she's, well, 391 00:19:25,476 --> 00:19:27,236 Speaker 1: we can't sleep in the same room. But this is okay. 392 00:19:27,236 --> 00:19:30,836 Speaker 1: So she goes, I'm just gonna tell the Patricia, both 393 00:19:30,836 --> 00:19:32,436 Speaker 1: the Bushes made their rest and peace are gone. She 394 00:19:32,436 --> 00:19:34,596 Speaker 1: goes and she gets a chair and she puts it 395 00:19:34,636 --> 00:19:37,196 Speaker 1: on the inside of the door of the bathroom. So 396 00:19:37,196 --> 00:19:39,356 Speaker 1: this Porschemark can't get into the bathroom from this bedroom. 397 00:19:39,356 --> 00:19:42,036 Speaker 1: He's got to go into the hallway. I'm sorry, what 398 00:19:42,156 --> 00:19:44,756 Speaker 1: she says. And no way, because he's gonna come through. 399 00:19:44,796 --> 00:19:46,996 Speaker 1: He's going right in that bedroom. No, now, don't think 400 00:19:46,996 --> 00:19:51,996 Speaker 1: she's controlling right, just don't don't reason he's definitely sicilian. 401 00:19:52,236 --> 00:19:54,156 Speaker 1: I've known that he didn't mean too on purpose, but 402 00:19:54,196 --> 00:19:55,636 Speaker 1: he might have, and I wasn't going to have that 403 00:19:55,756 --> 00:19:57,716 Speaker 1: was I mean, I'm worrying about I think it was 404 00:19:57,836 --> 00:20:00,156 Speaker 1: very funny that we were separated. But some dude, I 405 00:20:00,236 --> 00:20:02,476 Speaker 1: never met this guy. It's okay for me to be 406 00:20:02,516 --> 00:20:04,876 Speaker 1: with him. That's cool. I can't imagine that she wouldn't 407 00:20:04,876 --> 00:20:07,596 Speaker 1: want two women to share a bathroom rather than a man. 408 00:20:07,756 --> 00:20:11,316 Speaker 1: She didn't want to share in any Oh God, my 409 00:20:11,396 --> 00:20:13,636 Speaker 1: mother would have done the same thing. But it speaks 410 00:20:13,676 --> 00:20:16,196 Speaker 1: to their confidence in who they are that they can 411 00:20:16,316 --> 00:20:18,876 Speaker 1: laugh at it. My mother's closest friend when I was 412 00:20:18,876 --> 00:20:22,276 Speaker 1: a kid happened to be gay, and I didn't necessarily 413 00:20:22,316 --> 00:20:24,516 Speaker 1: think there was anything wrong or bad about it at all. 414 00:20:24,836 --> 00:20:26,636 Speaker 1: I was ray said believe that all sorts of things 415 00:20:26,676 --> 00:20:28,636 Speaker 1: were perfectly fine, no matter what color you were or 416 00:20:28,636 --> 00:20:32,236 Speaker 1: what your sexual orientation was. It didn't necessarily matter until 417 00:20:32,276 --> 00:20:34,516 Speaker 1: it's you, and then it's a little different, if you 418 00:20:34,596 --> 00:20:36,836 Speaker 1: know what I mean. So tell us I think it's 419 00:20:36,876 --> 00:20:39,076 Speaker 1: a little different, perhaps, and this is only on me. 420 00:20:39,116 --> 00:20:41,356 Speaker 1: I can never speak for anybody else. I think that 421 00:20:41,436 --> 00:20:43,676 Speaker 1: I always felt that I perhaps had been a bit 422 00:20:43,676 --> 00:20:47,116 Speaker 1: of a disappointment because that wasn't necessarily a traditional trajectory 423 00:20:47,116 --> 00:20:49,636 Speaker 1: that I was going to follow. I did plenty of boys. 424 00:20:50,036 --> 00:20:52,476 Speaker 1: I never had any trouble in that department, but clearly 425 00:20:52,476 --> 00:20:55,876 Speaker 1: that wasn't going to be I think that I worried 426 00:20:55,916 --> 00:20:59,196 Speaker 1: that that would sometime disappoint my family. I do. I 427 00:20:59,236 --> 00:21:00,996 Speaker 1: think that was because it was because it's very hard 428 00:21:01,116 --> 00:21:03,156 Speaker 1: in the town I grew up in, which I wasn't 429 00:21:03,556 --> 00:21:06,676 Speaker 1: not Catholic, but the Billy Grahamville, because it was that 430 00:21:06,756 --> 00:21:09,476 Speaker 1: little town. If you're a woman in your forties and 431 00:21:09,676 --> 00:21:11,716 Speaker 1: you're still not married, then you would go into what's 432 00:21:11,756 --> 00:21:15,796 Speaker 1: called the spinster category. And said spinsters usually lived together, 433 00:21:15,996 --> 00:21:20,836 Speaker 1: and they probably weren't quote spinsters, after all, they teacher phenomenon. 434 00:21:21,796 --> 00:21:33,836 Speaker 1: Those gym teachers were always cousins. That Billy Grahamville was Montree. Yeah, 435 00:21:33,876 --> 00:21:36,076 Speaker 1: that's where I was from age of seven until I 436 00:21:36,076 --> 00:21:37,676 Speaker 1: went off to college. That's where I lived right down 437 00:21:37,716 --> 00:21:39,876 Speaker 1: the road from them, because my mother had moved us 438 00:21:39,876 --> 00:21:42,836 Speaker 1: there when hurt, when spent If you felt that you 439 00:21:42,876 --> 00:21:45,436 Speaker 1: were lesbian. That wouldn't be the town to come out in. No, 440 00:21:45,516 --> 00:21:47,156 Speaker 1: but I didn't. I didn't know what I was. I mean, 441 00:21:47,196 --> 00:21:49,436 Speaker 1: nobody talked about anything in that town. You couldn't even 442 00:21:49,436 --> 00:21:52,476 Speaker 1: have cooking sherry in the house. Nobody talked about sex. 443 00:21:52,516 --> 00:21:56,116 Speaker 1: I mean, no, you couldn't. It was they were that strict. 444 00:21:56,676 --> 00:21:58,836 Speaker 1: You know, you didn't you didn't cuss. I mean, you 445 00:21:58,836 --> 00:22:02,556 Speaker 1: didn't do anything. Um, there was no so this would. 446 00:22:02,756 --> 00:22:05,156 Speaker 1: In fact, there's a lot of those same people. They would, 447 00:22:05,516 --> 00:22:07,516 Speaker 1: you know, if I got struck by lightning, which could 448 00:22:07,516 --> 00:22:10,636 Speaker 1: really happen some of the places I go, I tell God, 449 00:22:10,676 --> 00:22:12,956 Speaker 1: don't do that, because too many people would say, of 450 00:22:12,956 --> 00:22:17,716 Speaker 1: course she was. That's right. When I was growing up, 451 00:22:17,716 --> 00:22:19,916 Speaker 1: the two worst things you could be way if you 452 00:22:19,916 --> 00:22:23,436 Speaker 1: were an alcoholic or gay, is was like really bad 453 00:22:23,476 --> 00:22:25,996 Speaker 1: and I drink too much in a wealth. The rest 454 00:22:25,996 --> 00:22:29,756 Speaker 1: of the story, what did your ex husband feel about 455 00:22:29,836 --> 00:22:32,596 Speaker 1: all of a sudden you're liking women that she hain't 456 00:22:32,676 --> 00:22:34,836 Speaker 1: heard about that before. It had been in the news 457 00:22:34,876 --> 00:22:40,276 Speaker 1: for years. And yeah, his first comment was, I didn't 458 00:22:40,316 --> 00:22:41,956 Speaker 1: make you this way, did I said, you don't have 459 00:22:41,996 --> 00:22:46,756 Speaker 1: that power. You know, that's such a male thing, you know, 460 00:22:46,756 --> 00:22:49,356 Speaker 1: I have to wait. Oh god, you know we've been 461 00:22:49,476 --> 00:22:51,676 Speaker 1: we're friends, were great friends and it. But you know 462 00:22:51,716 --> 00:22:54,156 Speaker 1: he was concerned, I said, because we'd broken up. And 463 00:22:54,156 --> 00:22:58,236 Speaker 1: I say, no, not even you have that power. I'm sorry. Oh. 464 00:22:58,396 --> 00:23:03,516 Speaker 1: Do you have any particular advice for other same sex partners? 465 00:23:04,996 --> 00:23:08,156 Speaker 1: I would say that remember that the hardest thing is 466 00:23:08,196 --> 00:23:10,836 Speaker 1: getting over shame because most people grow a lot of 467 00:23:10,876 --> 00:23:13,756 Speaker 1: people like me grow up where this is absolutely verboten 468 00:23:13,876 --> 00:23:16,916 Speaker 1: and you're something wrong with you. You didn't have as 469 00:23:16,996 --> 00:23:18,756 Speaker 1: much of that because you didn't grow up in the South. 470 00:23:19,116 --> 00:23:23,436 Speaker 1: But I would say that to remember that shame is 471 00:23:23,476 --> 00:23:26,356 Speaker 1: something that is inflicted on you by the outside. It 472 00:23:26,476 --> 00:23:30,276 Speaker 1: is not real. Be comfortable with yourself and that's a 473 00:23:30,276 --> 00:23:32,516 Speaker 1: big one because if you're not comfortable with yourself, I 474 00:23:32,556 --> 00:23:33,996 Speaker 1: think you're not going to have someone's going to work 475 00:23:34,116 --> 00:23:36,436 Speaker 1: very well, don't she right? And that's exactly right. You 476 00:23:36,516 --> 00:23:38,316 Speaker 1: got to deal with those things. If you grew up 477 00:23:38,316 --> 00:23:40,996 Speaker 1: with something where this wasn't mainstream, and most people do 478 00:23:41,076 --> 00:23:44,236 Speaker 1: grow up with that. Mine would advise you make sure 479 00:23:44,236 --> 00:23:46,476 Speaker 1: both of you are dealing with that because it's real, 480 00:23:46,636 --> 00:23:49,436 Speaker 1: and don't let others judge you by their metric. Don't 481 00:23:49,436 --> 00:23:51,876 Speaker 1: be judged by someone else's metric. It does not apply 482 00:23:51,916 --> 00:23:54,716 Speaker 1: to you. The most important thing in the relationship is 483 00:23:54,756 --> 00:23:56,676 Speaker 1: that you both should make each other better at what 484 00:23:56,716 --> 00:23:59,636 Speaker 1: you're here to do and who you are. And she 485 00:24:00,276 --> 00:24:02,716 Speaker 1: is always my go to person and she's my biggest supporter, 486 00:24:02,796 --> 00:24:05,156 Speaker 1: and I try to be that for her with what 487 00:24:05,196 --> 00:24:08,796 Speaker 1: she does, and because I think, you know, feelings are 488 00:24:08,796 --> 00:24:12,716 Speaker 1: fun and they're easy, but making things work and trying 489 00:24:12,716 --> 00:24:15,956 Speaker 1: to be unselfish and to take care of somebody and 490 00:24:16,076 --> 00:24:18,156 Speaker 1: to allow yourself to be taken care of and realize 491 00:24:18,156 --> 00:24:20,316 Speaker 1: that together you're better than you are than if you're 492 00:24:20,356 --> 00:24:25,436 Speaker 1: a part. That to me is what it's about. Matt's 493 00:24:25,436 --> 00:24:30,476 Speaker 1: Patricia Cornwell and Stacy Gruber. What a smart and interesting couple. 494 00:24:30,716 --> 00:24:33,876 Speaker 1: Their work is so different, but they somehow make them 495 00:24:33,916 --> 00:24:37,036 Speaker 1: dovetail quite nicely, just like two other people I know. 496 00:24:38,156 --> 00:24:41,036 Speaker 1: Until next time, I'm filled down to you and I'm 497 00:24:41,076 --> 00:24:43,796 Speaker 1: Marlo Thomas. I think that's one of the magical things 498 00:24:43,796 --> 00:24:45,956 Speaker 1: about being in a relationship, is if you can celebrate 499 00:24:46,316 --> 00:24:49,116 Speaker 1: what the other person does and who they are. You know, 500 00:24:49,516 --> 00:24:51,116 Speaker 1: if I had to put my money on this one, 501 00:24:51,156 --> 00:24:54,716 Speaker 1: I bet on you, guys, I would Double data is 502 00:24:54,716 --> 00:24:58,436 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. The show was created by 503 00:24:58,556 --> 00:25:03,556 Speaker 1: US and produced by Sarah Lily. Michael Bahari is associate producer. 504 00:25:04,076 --> 00:25:07,796 Speaker 1: Musical adaptations of It Had to Be You by Cellwagon. 505 00:25:07,956 --> 00:25:12,996 Speaker 1: Sympinette Marlo and I are executive producers, along with Mia 506 00:25:13,116 --> 00:25:19,316 Speaker 1: Lobel and Letal Molad from Pushkin. Special thanks to Jacob Wiseberg, 507 00:25:19,636 --> 00:25:25,956 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Faine, John Snars, Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, 508 00:25:26,276 --> 00:25:32,756 Speaker 1: Emily Rostak, Jason Gambrel, Paul Williams, and Bruce Kluger. If 509 00:25:32,756 --> 00:25:37,156 Speaker 1: you like our show, please remember to share, rate, and review. 510 00:25:38,116 --> 00:25:39,036 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.