1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: Body Doors with Joseph Scott more, Hope springs eternal. There's 2 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: a lot of examples of that. I think, you know 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: where you always have maybe a sliver, a glimmer, maybe 4 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: a sentilla of hope, and sometimes it comes to fruition. 5 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: I think many of us are surprised when that thing 6 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: that we quote unquote held out hope for materializes. Sometimes 7 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: I believe it's providential. Sometimes you're just in the right 8 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,599 Speaker 1: place at the right time. But Tom is what we're 9 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: going to talk about today, because a lot of Tom 10 00:00:51,920 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: has elapsed since the death of Ellen Greenberg. But during 11 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: that time there have been to say that it's been 12 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: a roller coaster ride for Joshua and Sandy Greenberg as 13 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: an understatement, but hope does spring eternal, and we got 14 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: news of that this week, and that's why I'd like 15 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: to discuss it a bit today. We're going to talk 16 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: about a decision that has recently come down in Pennsylvania 17 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: just this past week, regarding the death of Ellen Greenberg. 18 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:54,919 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs. Hope 19 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: has sprung forth in the Ellen Greenberg case that just 20 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: this past week, the Supreme Court of the State or 21 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: I'm sorry forgive me. The Commonwealth, which I still have 22 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: yet to figure out the difference between a commonwealth and 23 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: a state. I'm sure that'll come to fruition at some 24 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: point in time. But the Commonwealth, the Supring Court of 25 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, has agreed to hear to hear 26 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg's case, and I could not be I don't 27 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: know if the word happy is right. I'm I'm thrilled 28 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: for the Greenberg family though, because buddy, let me tell 29 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: you something. You talk about being drug through a keyhole. 30 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: These poor people just over all these years, their precious 31 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: daughter dead under just the super bizarre circumstances, and they're here. 32 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: They're going to have a hearing, yeah. 33 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 2: And it has. And it's not about guilt or innocence. 34 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 2: This hearing is about whether or not the parents have 35 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 2: standing in court to represent their daughter in how her 36 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 2: death is ruled. See when at first, when Ellen Greenberg 37 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 2: died and the investigation into her death was ruled a homicide, 38 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 2: it seemed like a foregone conclusion, you'll move forward with 39 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 2: an investigation as a homicide. But that's not what happened 40 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: at all. The police had their own idea of what happened, 41 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: and it was based on the fact that her fiance, 42 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 2: that Ellen Greenberg's fiance, Sam Goldberg, who was there when 43 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 2: this all took place. He made the nine to one 44 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: month phone call, he broke in the door. We'll get 45 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 2: into this in a minute, but he did all these things, 46 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 2: and he was there talking to police, and they police 47 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: believed he. They believed him because he was there, so 48 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 2: you say, and he they the medical examiner or coroner 49 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 2: ruled this death a homicide. The police said it was 50 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 2: a suicide, and for some reason unknown to me, the 51 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 2: death was changed from homicide to suicide. And that is 52 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: what this is about. All these years later. This happened 53 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 2: in twenty eleven, Joe, and here we are twenty twenty four, 54 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 2: and her parents, bless their hearts, what they've gone through. 55 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 2: They've spent a half million dollars, and they're doing it 56 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 2: because if it's a suicide, it's a suicide. If it's 57 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 2: a homicide, then there's a killer running loose. Somebody is 58 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 2: out of prison that should be in prison for the 59 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 2: death of their daughter, and they can't seem to get anyone. Well, 60 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 2: over the last several years, they've gotten plenty of people 61 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 2: to believe anyone that looks at this case. I have 62 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 2: yet to have anybody, Joe, tell me they believe it's 63 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: a suicide. I haven't had one person that I know 64 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 2: that has looked at this tell me they believe suicide. 65 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: Not one. Yeah, count me in that number. Yeah, and 66 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: you know, just and just so our friends know, we've actually, 67 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: you know, we've done a previous episode you know, on 68 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: Body back right about Ellen, and that goes back I 69 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: think August August of twenty twenty two, two years ago. Yeah, 70 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: two years ago when that dropped. I can't tell you 71 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: how many times I've been on television, but. 72 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 2: You and Nancy did a huge reenactment. 73 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. We actually at Jacksonville State we re constructed or 74 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,239 Speaker 1: did a fact simile of Ellen's kitchen. 75 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 2: Actually, Joe, let's see this very quickly for those of 76 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: you who are new and don't know this story. And 77 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 2: I found this out in dealing with some of our 78 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 2: coworkers on this case up in New York where they 79 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 2: just aren't familiar with it. They're not familiar with this case, right. 80 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: It boggles my mind how anybody could not. But you 81 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 2: know what, friends, we all miss things. There are stories 82 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 2: every day that I don't see, that you don't see. 83 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 2: So here it is. Ellen Greenberg's twenty seven years old. 84 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 2: She's a school teacher in Pennsylvania. She's engaged. Four days earlier. 85 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 2: She had sent out hold the Date cards to her 86 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 2: friends and family about their wedding date. She was excited 87 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 2: about this. A blizzard was coming in to Pennsylvania, to 88 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 2: Philadelphia at that time, and so they had sent everybody 89 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 2: home from work, go home, y'all get out of here. Yep, 90 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 2: they didn't say y'all, they get out, and so she does. 91 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: Now. 92 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 2: Ellen Greenberg leaves the school and on her way home 93 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 2: to the apartment she shares with Samberg, her Beyonce, she 94 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 2: stops and fills up her tank of gas in her car. 95 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 2: All right, So, and the reason I point that out 96 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 2: is because of what transpired after this. On our way 97 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: home she gets gashed. She goes to the apartment they're 98 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 2: hanging out, and Sam around four forty five says, I'm 99 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 2: gonna go work out. He goes down to the apartment 100 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 2: complex Jim to work out. When he returns sometime between 101 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 2: five fifteen and five thirty, he can't get in the 102 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 2: door front. The door is barred. Now it's locked, but 103 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 2: it also has a lock bar on the inside. 104 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: Yep, being like a hotel, just like a hotel room. 105 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: So everybody knows it's it's one of those things that swings, 106 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: you know, it swings and then it latches onto the 107 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: you know, it's got the little slot in the gate 108 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: I think his house referred to, and it hooks onto 109 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: the other thing that's you know, that's anchored on the 110 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: door facing itself. So that's that's what he's faced with. 111 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 2: And so he can't get in right, and he sends 112 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 2: text messages to Ellen, and he spends at least twenty 113 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: two minutes. There are other reports that say longer texting, calling, 114 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: trying to get her dance to the door, even sends 115 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 2: her an email. 116 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: She won't do it. 117 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 2: So he breaks the door down and gets in and 118 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 2: he finds her on the floor in the kitchen. She's 119 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: got her butt on the floor, leaned up against the 120 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 2: cabinets and she's bloody yep. And he calls nine to 121 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 2: one one. Sam calls nine to one one in what 122 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 2: to me seems a bit rehearsed, but he calls and says, 123 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 2: I've found my fiance. She's on the floor bleeding, and 124 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,839 Speaker 2: they said, well, you know you need to do CPR, 125 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 2: you know, check see if she's live to CPR, and 126 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 2: he tries. He goes, oh, wait a minute, I can't. 127 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 2: There's a knife in her chest. Knife's still sticking in 128 00:08:58,120 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 2: her chest. 129 00:08:58,679 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: Joe yep. 130 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 2: The nine to one one call from Goldberg starts at 131 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 2: six thirty three pm. By six forty pm, medics have 132 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 2: responded to the scene and have pronounced Ellie Dad. There's 133 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 2: no sign of an intruder, no sign of forced entry. 134 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,719 Speaker 2: The only sign of forced entry, of course, is her 135 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 2: fiance breaking the door to get in. As they're looking 136 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: over the scene, police are saying, well, here's the fiance 137 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 2: who's giving us all the information. He's standing right here. 138 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,359 Speaker 2: He's not leaving. And the police say, all this suicide. 139 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 2: Now they're looking at it. They haven't examined the body 140 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 2: other than a cursory look. And I have a question 141 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 2: for you about what police do on the scene, Joe. 142 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 2: But her body is then taken to the morgue and 143 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 2: the next morning an autopsy has performed. The police are 144 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 2: thinking suicide and the next morning, when the emmy starts 145 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,439 Speaker 2: doing the autopsy, they realize there are a whole lot 146 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 2: of other things going on. One they get the blood 147 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: cleaned off and they're looking and they realize they being 148 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 2: the medical people. But the corner is saying, there are 149 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 2: over twenty. There are twenty stab wounds on this woman's body, 150 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 2: and at least ten of them are in her back 151 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 2: and neck. 152 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a suicide, Joe. And so the. 153 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 2: Corner actually says homicide. He rules it a homicide and 154 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 2: makes sense, doesn't it, based on the number of wounds. However, 155 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 2: the family is going through the grief process. It's a homicide. 156 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 2: Got to murderer out on the loose. Family says, you know, 157 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 2: Sam's been a good boyfriend. We don't see anything wrong 158 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 2: with him. At first, the corner does mention something, Joe. 159 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 2: There are at least ten other wounds on her body, 160 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 2: bruises that are in various stages of healing. Some are 161 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 2: older than others. But she's got bruises is on her legs, 162 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 2: on her abdomen. She got bruises, Buddy, And she doesn't 163 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 2: play any kind She's a girly girl, doesn't play any sports, 164 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 2: so there's no reason for her to have bruises on 165 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 2: her body. Maybe one or two. We can all have those, 166 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 2: but ten that are in various stages of healing. Rule 167 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 2: a homicide family grieving. Months go by and the corner, 168 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 2: unbeknownst to the family, decides it's not a homicide, it's 169 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 2: a suicide and changes their death ruling. 170 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: Yep, changes it. And that's and they and here's the 171 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: other you know, here's the other piece to this, Dave, 172 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: is that the family, according to what we understand, was 173 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: not advised that this was going to happen. And so 174 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: you know, here it starts. I think you know when 175 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: you have when you have a a dead child, and 176 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: you know, looking at this from the perspective of a parent, 177 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:11,119 Speaker 1: you've already got enough to kind of juggle, and you 178 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 1: you set your mind, you know, when you give when 179 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:18,839 Speaker 1: we when we tell a family member, first off, we 180 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: notify them of death or we give them that initial finding. 181 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: They only hear about ten percent of what you say 182 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: in those critical early moments. And that's a proven fact. 183 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: They literally have to come back to you and get 184 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: more information because their brain can only take on so much. 185 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: So when they have been I'm sorry. 186 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 2: I did not know that. 187 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well you're getting slapped around emotionally is and 188 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: you know, at the core of your being. And I 189 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: think that anybody and we we just have these fantastic 190 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: listeners that everybody has their different life experiences. For our 191 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: listeners that have experienced death in their life, you remember 192 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: where you were when you found out, You remember who 193 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 1: told you about a death of someone that was very 194 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: dear to you, and you remember those initial comments that 195 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: were made. And so when you're being told as a process, 196 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: during this process that this is a homicide, and that's 197 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: kind of emblazoned into your brain. Now all of a sudden, 198 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: you're going to put full stop and go in reverse 199 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: and you don't even have the damn common courtesy. Let 200 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: that just kind of sink in the common courtesy to 201 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: reach out to mom and daddy and say we're changing 202 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: this ruling and we're going to make it a serious 203 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: You're right, I'd be fit to be tied. I mean, 204 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: if you want to explain it to me, if you 205 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: want to explain this finding to me, man to man 206 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: as a daddy, that you're changing my baby girls cause 207 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: of death or manner of death rather, And that's the 208 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: important thing here, the manner from a from a homicide 209 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: to a suicide. Explain it to me, lay it out 210 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: to me, tell me what's going on. But that's that's 211 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: not done in this case. And so it's it's not 212 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: it's not only that Ellen has gone from them forever 213 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: and ever, Amen, it's it's the fact that it was 214 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: done in this manner. So you're you talk about throwing 215 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: gasoline on a fire, that's what That's what Greenberg's have 216 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: been dealing with for all these years, Dave, all these years, 217 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: you know, and we're talking about going back to twenty eleven. Okay. 218 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: This has been a long, long crooked road for them 219 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: along the way. But the one thing about it is this, 220 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: and this just encourages me and should encourage many of 221 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: you out there. They didn't sit down in a corner 222 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: somewhere wringing their hands weeping. They got busy and now 223 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: now maybe it's going to pay a dividend. You had mentioned, 224 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: David some time ago that Nancy and I had done 225 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: a recreation of Ellen's apartment at Jacksonville State and it 226 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: appeared on Fox at that time. 227 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 2: It was a special, phenomenal recreation of the scene. 228 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: Joe, Yeah, that goes to our staff at Jayshue, I 229 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: just showed up after you know, even our departmental secretary, 230 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: which is pretty amazing. She actually makes uh makes fake blood. Wow. 231 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: And so we were able to uh through crylics and 232 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: all these sorts of things, we were able to reconstruct 233 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: you know, the scene, and you know we had caventry 234 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: in there and all that sort of thing. 235 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: You know, we know how many stab wounds there were, Joe, right, 236 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 2: and when the police showed up because of the nine 237 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 2: one one call, you got medics and police showing up. 238 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 2: There are something I want to point out. When Samuel 239 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: Goldberg was trying to get Ellen to open the door again, 240 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 2: the door was locked with the latch, as we mentioned earlier, 241 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: so he couldn't get in, and he was texting her 242 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: and trying to call her and what have you. And 243 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 2: here's what he was texting Joe. I pulled this up 244 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 2: because I wanted to give you an idea of this 245 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 2: couple who for earlier sent out save the date message, 246 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 2: you know, could notice all their friends and family. First 247 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 2: message to her, first text, Hello, Remember he's standing outside 248 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 2: the door. She's allegedly inside open the door. That's the 249 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 2: second one third one. What are you doing fourth. One, 250 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 2: I'm getting pissed. Five Hello, six you better have an excuse. 251 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 2: So the sixth text is a threat? Seven, what the f. 252 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: Eight? 253 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 2: Ah ahhh ah nine, you have no idea. Those are 254 00:17:55,160 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 2: the text messages he sent to Ellen Greenberg, his fiance. 255 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: He went down to the gym to work out, comes 256 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,479 Speaker 2: back thirty minutes or so later, can't get in, and 257 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 2: that's what he's texting her. She could be taken a shower, 258 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 2: she could have fallen asleep. Any number of things could 259 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 2: have been going on that do not require a threat 260 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 2: by the sixth text message or a threat that I'm 261 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 2: getting mad. So just letting you know that's where Samuel 262 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 2: Goldberg's head was in terms of sending these text messages, 263 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 2: and now that we know that she's dead inside the apartment, Joe, 264 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 2: he thought these were perfectly acceptable for police to see. 265 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 2: He thought these messages were acceptable. 266 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, it's always that piece of it 267 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: has always been interesting to me that he's there physically 268 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: texting these messages to her and there is no response whatsoever. 269 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: And it's you see this this kind of progressive escalation, 270 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: which I guess that's kind of repetitive. You see this 271 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: escalation and you know with these text messages, but when 272 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: he finally gains entry into the apartment, and if I'm 273 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: not mistaken, there was actually a a building worker that 274 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: had been there, right, And then you know that he 275 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 1: has to defeat that gate on the door, because it's 276 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: locked internally, you have to defeat it. And he was able, 277 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 1: according to the police, to defeat that through pressure and 278 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: being able to go in and then view. 279 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 2: View. 280 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: You know Ellen in the kitchen and she's in a seated, 281 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: seated position as you you know, her buttocks is kind 282 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 1: of contacting contacting the floor legs and they use the 283 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: term splade, which means they're extended and kind of often 284 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: these acute eagles. Yeah, and she's leaning listening to one side. 285 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: I think one of the big questions is here it 286 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: comes down to gravity. We've got blood that is issuing 287 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: from from her face and it is running so that 288 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: it would be parallel with her shoulders. Okay, this blood streak, 289 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 1: if you will, well, you can't be seated in a 290 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: vertical orientation, straight up and down, and blood is going 291 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: to flow to the back of your head. So one 292 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: of the suppositions has always been was that she had 293 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: been moved, moved from maybe a a position where she 294 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: is lying on the floor in a soupin position, which 295 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: means her shoulder blades are contacting, uh, contacting the floor, 296 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: and then moved and repositioned. And during that period of 297 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: time when she was moved, the blood ran essentially downward, 298 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: and then the orientation is is changed at that point 299 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: in time. I think that that's that's kind of an 300 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 1: interesting an interesting uh finding there, because. 301 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 2: You're sitting up, the blood would drip down your face 302 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 2: into your neck and chest, not the one side in 303 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:40,360 Speaker 2: your ear Joe. 304 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you would have it streaked down you know, 305 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: your shirt and this sort of thing. And look, there's 306 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: blood deposition on her. You can't get past that because 307 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 1: of the level of violence here. And when I say violence, Dave, 308 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: I'm talking about so many stab wounds these and they're 309 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: not And here here's another one that I don't think 310 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: that people really have have focused on. She's actually got 311 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: a pretty nasty incized wound on her scalp as well. 312 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: That's kind of elliptical in shape if you think. 313 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: About, say, Joe, yeah, let me back up very quickly 314 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: here because I want you to be able to get 315 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 2: into all of the injuries. Yeah, but I'm curious as 316 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 2: to when police come in what they're seeing. I went 317 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 2: to the nine one one call, and you've got Sam 318 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 2: is Samuel is on the phone with nine one one. 319 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 2: By the way, he comes in allegedly and finds his 320 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 2: fiance on the floor like this. He doesn't call nine 321 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 2: one one right away, Joe. He actually makes two other 322 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 2: phone calls before calling nine one one, Sam Goldwyn, his 323 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 2: wife or his fiance say, bloodied on the floor in 324 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 2: the kitchen. He calls two lawyers. One is his uncle, 325 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 2: one is his cousin. He calls two lawyers, Joe, before 326 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 2: calling nine to one one. I know lawyers. I know you. 327 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,360 Speaker 2: And if I come home and find a loved one 328 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 2: in the kitchen like this, I ain't calling you. No, 329 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 2: I'm calling nine to one one. 330 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: Right Yeah, I'll tell them I want them out there expeditiously. Yes. 331 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 2: So that's what the setting that That is where my 332 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 2: head is in this that he calls his uncle a lawyer, 333 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 2: And all I can think of is he's going, hey, man, 334 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 2: you need a defense attorney. And you know your cousin 335 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 2: is a lot better at this than I am. Call 336 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 2: him and see what he thinks. That's all I'm thinking. 337 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 2: And by the way, I am making that up out 338 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 2: of my brain what I think happened in the conversations, 339 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 2: but the conversations took place. First called his uncle, the lawyer, 340 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 2: then called his cousin. The lawyer then calls nine to 341 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 2: one one, and in the nine to one one call, 342 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 2: he's acting very agitated and over the top, and the 343 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 2: operator tells him a couple of times, you got to 344 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 2: get yourself calmed down. Man, you have to calm That's 345 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 2: what she actually says, Sir, you have to calm yourself 346 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 2: down in order to get you some help. Now, the 347 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 2: operator says, you don't know where she's bleeding from, can't 348 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 2: tell where the blood's coming from. Sam Goldberg says, I 349 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 2: think her head. What it's all about? Everywhere? It's everywhere. 350 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 2: You think she might have fallen. Do you know what happened? 351 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 2: Goldberg says, she may have slipped. There's blood on the table. 352 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 2: Her face is a little purple. So she hit her head. Joe, 353 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 2: now the fact that she has twenty nine wounds, and 354 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 2: he comes up with, oh, she hit her head. I'm thinking, 355 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 2: is he looking at the same person or are all 356 00:24:58,400 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 2: of these wounds not bleeding. 357 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: No, they they're not necessarily bleeding, and you have to 358 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: kind of measure that out relative to the amount of 359 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: hemorrhage that's there. And is there evidence that any of 360 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: this stuff is post mortem? And I think that there 361 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: have been some people that have concluded that it could 362 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: have been, you know, an absence of hemorrhage in particular 363 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: wound tracks. But I think probably the most glaring thing 364 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: to me, Dave, is that he's looking down and you 365 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: had mentioned this earlier when he's being told to render 366 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 1: aid CPR and he states that she's got a I 367 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 1: can't she's got a knife in her chest. You couple 368 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 1: that with what you just said about I can't understand. 369 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: I can't make sense of where the and this is 370 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: me paraphrasing where the blood is coming from. This is 371 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 1: what we call a clue if you have if you 372 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: have a knife, which the knife is, it is roughly. 373 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 2: Twelve point five centimeters, Yeah, and that's going to. 374 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: Convert to about four hang on, let me do the math. 375 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,479 Speaker 1: Four point nine inches. So this thing is buried in 376 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 1: her chest, it's there, and this you have to you 377 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: have to know that this is going to be the 378 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: last location, the coup de gras, if you will, where 379 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: the knife is going to wind up, and it really 380 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: it's done tremendous amount of internal damage. We're talking about 381 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: a lung getting clipped. We're talking about damage to the order, 382 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: which even and I've used this analogy relative to other 383 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: cases that we've talked about anytime involving the order, even 384 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: if you have a let's just say she she was 385 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: rolling into an emergency room and you had a cardiothoracic 386 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 1: surgeon that was standing right there with a te that 387 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,679 Speaker 1: is such a hill to climb for them to even 388 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: fix her at that point in time. That's a that's 389 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: a lethal that's a lethal event of Reflectively, you know, 390 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: I have people over the years now and it has 391 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: been years, you know, since we've been covering this case, 392 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: they've said, Morgan, have you ever had, you know, cases 393 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: of self inflicted you know, stab wounds. Yeah, I have, 394 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: And most of them are precipitated in cases where people 395 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: are in a they're they're in they're in psychological duress. Obviously, 396 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,199 Speaker 1: I had one case in particularly where the guy was 397 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: he was literally psychotic, uh, highly paranoid. I think I 398 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: may have mentioned this in the first episode that we 399 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: did about Ellen's case. But he he thought that the 400 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: CIA had put a listening device in his in his forearm, 401 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: and he cut his forearm open. I think we found 402 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: let me get this straight. It seems like he had 403 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: sliced his arm. If you'll turn your palm up on 404 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: your left hand, he had sliced from the heel of 405 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: his hand to what's referred to as the anti cubital fossil, 406 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: which is the fancy term for the crook of your arm. 407 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: He had sliced that over twenty five times with a 408 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: filet knife, trying to find the microphone in his forearm, 409 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 1: and he bled out he was Yeah, he was a 410 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: young man that lived with his parents. He was pairing 411 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: wits kits. He had no other stab injuries, but he 412 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,719 Speaker 1: thought he was being listened to, and so he's in 413 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: this kind of psychotic phase. I had trouble ruling that, 414 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: and it wasn't up to me to rule that that 415 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: was for the corner. This was in New Orleans at 416 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: the time. Ruling that actually as a suicide. But he 417 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 1: did die at his own hand, and one of the 418 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: things that you do with suicide is one of the 419 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: things that forensic pathologists want is they want to be 420 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: able to demonstrate intent when it comes to suicidal ideation 421 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: and then acting that out. You know, and you look 422 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: at him and he's in a psychotic phase, do you think, well, 423 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: could he form intent in order to do that? Was 424 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: it his intention to kill himself? Well, I don't know, 425 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: but he brought about his own death. In Ellen's case, 426 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: you know, this thing starts off as a homicide with 427 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: multiple stab wounds. And I got to tell you, Dave, 428 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: just so you know, if I see this, look, if 429 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: I've got if I've got five stab wounds on a case, 430 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: I'm calling that overkill. We're not talking about five. We've 431 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: got twenty. We've got twenty. Not to mention the other 432 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: little insults over the body, she's got a big kind 433 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: of crescent shaped in sized injury on her scalp. 434 00:29:58,480 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 2: When he's saying size, what does that mean? 435 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: Well, it's it's it's real simple. It's like it's a 436 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: cut as opposed to stab. So stab uh and this 437 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: the stab ons range, some of them are very superficial, 438 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 1: and but yet you have these that have depth, particularly 439 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: the one that's where the knife is found buried in 440 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: her chest that has significant depth where it's impacting you know, 441 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: h her her her organs and the function of her 442 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: aora and her lung. If someone had did intend to 443 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: do great bodily harm to themselves, in other words, kill themselves, 444 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: why would you be layered up? You would want to 445 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: make sure that the blow that you struck was going 446 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: to be effective, that it was in fact going to 447 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: end your life. Well, is that the case here? Well, no, 448 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: we've got you know, you're going through multiple layers of 449 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: clothing here, you've got this knife that's buried in the chest. 450 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: And the one thing that none of us can get 451 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: past is this idea that you can stab yourself in 452 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: the back. You know, there's uh, you know, there's that. 453 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: That's one of the reasons that you know, you go 454 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: back to even we did it, We did the the 455 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: episode on Bodybags about the death of Julius Caesar, and 456 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: that's where the term backstabber comes from, because you know, 457 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: who's going to stab themselves in a back with a 458 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: knife at their own hand? How can you even tolerate 459 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: that kind of pain? That intense pain. Also, additionally, one 460 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: of these insults, there's two of them, actually that one 461 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: brushes the spinal cord, and you've got another one that 462 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: enters into the base of the of the skull, and 463 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: so you have in dwelling hemorrhage. There there are I 464 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: think neuropathologists out there that hold that she Ellen, that is, 465 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: this would have incapacitated her. But yet you look at 466 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: the autopsy report and there's a very specific mention in 467 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: the autopsy report where the pathologists is saying, no, that 468 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: that was not the case, that this could not have 469 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,959 Speaker 1: incapacitated her. Well, how do you how do you measure 470 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: that relative to that? I've always had a problem with that, 471 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: and not to mention there was also this this thing 472 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: that had erupted early on. There's this lady that's well known, 473 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: I mean revered neuropathologist. 474 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 2: Doctor Lizzy Rourke Adams. 475 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. And when you talk about a pioneering lady that's 476 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: in the field, and it's a very specific field of neuropathology, 477 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: she is held as the gold standard. And the thing 478 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: about her is that the Emmy's office had claimed at 479 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: that particular time that they had sent Ellen samples perhaps 480 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: the brain to this physician, this renowned physician, for her 481 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: to examine and give an opinion. Guess what. She says 482 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: that she has no record of this day. It's out 483 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: of all the people in the world that you could 484 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: have chosen to do this. I think that she would 485 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: be like I said, she's the old standard. She's some 486 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: you would want to have eyes on this case. But 487 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: to say that you had actually sent a sample to her, 488 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 1: and she says, and she keeps meticulous notes because they 489 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: bill for everything, that. 490 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 2: She's a contractor and this is not a first go round. 491 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 2: But here's what actually happened. She didn't say she never 492 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 2: saw it. She said that she has no recollect she 493 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 2: did not examine it. There's no record, she never sent 494 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 2: a bill, there's nothing. But here's what actually transpired. To 495 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 2: change this from homicide to suicide and back that up, 496 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 2: they had to make it so that this wound on 497 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 2: the spinal cord did not effect the spinal cord itself, 498 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 2: that it actually didn't impact it. Because if the spinal 499 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 2: cord is impacted, she cannot have inflicted the last stab wound, 500 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 2: which is the knife to the check level, right, And 501 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 2: if it doesn't touch, if it doesn't impact the spinal cord, 502 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 2: then she could This is what the entire homicide. Suicide 503 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 2: comes down to and this major issue. The doctor or 504 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 2: the coroner, the Emmy, in a pouring down snow in Philadelphia, 505 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 2: takes this section of spinal cord, the specimen to doctor 506 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 2: Lucy Rourke Adams, and outside of the hospital, standing next 507 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 2: to her car in a snow storm, she looks at it, 508 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 2: not under a microscope, not in a lab, in the 509 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 2: parking lot next to her car. That's the examination that 510 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 2: took place that led theme to state that this expert, 511 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 2: world renowned expert said there was no impact on the 512 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 2: spinal cord. A great she said, I might have looked 513 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 2: at it, you know, but I did not examine it. 514 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is not something you know when you 515 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: conduct when you conduct any kind of examination. And this 516 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: applies both in medicine and forensics. This stuff is so 517 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: highly and intensely documented, and it's step by step and 518 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: there are procedures that have to take place in order 519 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: for it to be validated. David, let me ask you 520 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: this question, just knowing what you know, if I were, 521 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: if I were of a mind to try to take 522 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 1: this this so called examination that you're referring to, and 523 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: try to submit that into court and have that be valid. 524 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: I can tell you, you know, our friend Nancy Grace would 525 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: rip that to shreds. I don't know. I don't know 526 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: of a judge that would allow. 527 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 2: It, even when you have the doctor saying I don't 528 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 2: know what you're really talking about. You know, I did 529 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 2: not examine this. I have no record of it. I 530 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 2: have nothing, so no, I mean, but that's where this 531 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 2: hinge is, Joe, this entire case, for these parents, all 532 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 2: I can think of is, you know, Ellen Greenberg's dad 533 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,439 Speaker 2: is a doctor. They spend a half million dollars trying 534 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 2: to get a changed from suicide to they're willing to 535 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 2: settle for undetermined undetermined. Yeah, it's just it's not a suicide. 536 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 2: That's it's not a suicide. Friends, somebody did this to her, 537 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 2: she didn't do it to herself. One quick thing, you 538 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 2: mentioned the number of stab wounds. I had read a 539 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 2: piece on this because I was curious talking about how 540 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 2: when people do use a knife to inflict this, sometimes 541 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 2: there are extra wounds, not just the kill strike or 542 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 2: what have you, and that sometimes it's the individual is 543 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,879 Speaker 2: testing the water, see how bad it's gonna hurt, and 544 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 2: what have you. But those cuts are substantially different than 545 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 2: what we're talking about here in this particular case where 546 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 2: you have bounds to the back of the neck and 547 00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 2: the chest. 548 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't imagine under any circumstances that they would 549 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 1: be in such a broad anatomical orientation where you would 550 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,879 Speaker 1: have them both posterily and antirily. That doesn't make sense. 551 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 1: And I know what you're saying, and this happens. Actually, 552 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: this translates really well into other suicide investigations because you 553 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:24,879 Speaker 1: know how you use the term testing the waters. There 554 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 1: is documented, many documented cases where people will literally test 555 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 1: fire weapons before they shoot themselves. It's part of what 556 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: is done. And you go to this idea just you know, 557 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: if they're using a handgun, say for instance, they'll test 558 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: fire the weapon, maybe up into the ceiling. I've had them. Actually, 559 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: people will have heard a gunshot wound out of a window. 560 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,879 Speaker 1: Perhaps I actually saw I actually interviewed someone one time 561 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,359 Speaker 1: where they saw a man who was going to who 562 00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: did eventually take his lifestyle. I got involved in the case, 563 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: was in a second story window and extended the weapon 564 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: out of the window and this was actually witnessed, and 565 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: fired it into the street and sat back down and 566 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:11,839 Speaker 1: shot himself. They just want to make sure that it's 567 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: a fail it's not really a fail safe, but to 568 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: make sure that it's functioning. That's a bit tougher to 569 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 1: do with a knife. But if you are going to 570 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,359 Speaker 1: do a test run, you would think that it would 571 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 1: be concentrated in one specific area. Where are you're going 572 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: to do this? And there's any number of ways that 573 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: people do kill themselves with sharp instruments. We've heard for 574 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 1: years people you know, the old, cutting their own wrist. 575 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: I have had people that have cut their own throats. 576 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: I have colleagues that have worked a lot of those 577 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 1: over the years. Particularly used to get them a lot 578 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:49,880 Speaker 1: with straight razors. But the idea that someone stabs themselves 579 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: multiple times, and the thing that you have to think 580 00:39:52,719 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: about physiologically, are these pain centers firing? And I think everybody, 581 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: all of our friends out there that are listening, if 582 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: you even think about sustaining a paper cut. And I 583 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,320 Speaker 1: know I'm not trying to diminish Hellen, but it hurts 584 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:20,759 Speaker 1: so incredibly bad. Can you imagine driving a metal object 585 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 1: into your body twenty times? You do it over and 586 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: over and over again. I'm sorry, folks, something just does 587 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: not add up. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags.