Speaker 1: Welcome to Go ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land
Speaker 1: Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. Hey everyone, it's
Speaker 1: Ali Wentworth. This week, I'm re airing an episode about
Speaker 1: supporting our l g b t Q plus teens. This year,
Speaker 1: there have been over a hundred bills that aimed to
Speaker 1: curb the rights of transgender people across the country, most
Speaker 1: of which would greatly affect miners. So I hope my
Speaker 1: conversation with the wonderful Stephen Russell will shed even more
Speaker 1: light on the importance of fighting for trans equality at
Speaker 1: home and in our schools. Please enjoy today. I'm very
Speaker 1: excited about my guest, Stephen Russell, and his resume goes
Speaker 1: on for pages. His credentials include working at the University
Speaker 1: of Texas at Austin as a director for the College
Speaker 1: of Natural Sciences School of Human Ecology. He served as
Speaker 1: past chair of the Board of Directors of the Sexuality
Speaker 1: Information and Education Council of the United States Sex Said
Speaker 1: for Social Change Change. Finally, he's also part of the
Speaker 1: LGBTQ community and a father to a teen Stephen, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for being here. I'm really glad to
Speaker 1: be here. You kind of focus on relationships between LGBTQ
Speaker 1: teenagers and their families. Um, you're constantly working very hard
Speaker 1: to change policy. Before we get to that, I want
Speaker 1: to go through identification because I think a lot of
Speaker 1: parents need to understand. I have two teenage daughters who
Speaker 1: have informed my husband and I they are sis, meaning
Speaker 1: they identify their gender with their sexuality. Is that correct,
Speaker 1: their gender with their sex that was assigned a birth. Yes,
Speaker 1: they're sex. Thank you. See, this is why we're gonna
Speaker 1: have a lot to go through. Um, so let's talk
Speaker 1: about sexual orientation because that is that is different than uh,
Speaker 1: sexual identity, yeah, and gender identity and expression. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: sex is what we are assigned birth male or female,
Speaker 1: and is based on biological characteristics or traits. Um, it
Speaker 1: is actually a little it is more complicated than male
Speaker 1: or female in human physiology anatomy. We understand now there's
Speaker 1: much more actual human variation in sexual characteristics and biological
Speaker 1: sex than we thought. We understand much more now about
Speaker 1: ideas about intersex, meaning the space between and people who
Speaker 1: whose biological physiological sex is not consistent with our ideas
Speaker 1: about you know, exclusive maleness and exclusive females. And this
Speaker 1: is different from when you hear people say, yes, I
Speaker 1: was born a boy, but I don't feel like a boy.
Speaker 1: I feel like a girl. I know this sounds very
Speaker 1: elementary right now, but I do want for people listening
Speaker 1: to this to really understand terms and UH labels when
Speaker 1: we go into these discussions. Right, that is the manifestation
Speaker 1: of gender identity when as a young person feels that
Speaker 1: their gender identity, that their gender expression, the way they
Speaker 1: understand themselves in the world is either consistent with or
Speaker 1: not consistent with the sex that is on their birth
Speaker 1: certificate or that is their biological physiological self. And so
Speaker 1: when your kids tell you what we're ciss, it means
Speaker 1: that they understand their feminine identity, their female identity, and
Speaker 1: that's consistent with um the way that they were presented
Speaker 1: to the world and understood by their pediatricians and parents
Speaker 1: when they were when they were born and when they
Speaker 1: were little growing up. And and of course for some kids,
Speaker 1: if that is inconsistent, if they grow up feeling that
Speaker 1: there's a mismatch, that it didn't, it's not quite right
Speaker 1: that they were surprised to find out when they were
Speaker 1: three that they were a boy when they really thought
Speaker 1: they were a girl or you know, felt like a girl,
Speaker 1: or the other way around. That is when we think
Speaker 1: of and understand transgender. Although transgender is not necessarily what
Speaker 1: people call themselves. Necessarily, sometimes it is, but often transgender
Speaker 1: is a description of the gender identity rather than the
Speaker 1: person's self expression of their gender. Yeah, because I found
Speaker 1: that in my little bubble that parents and teachers have
Speaker 1: a tendency to not identify the correct way. A lot
Speaker 1: of times I'll hear people say, oh, yeah, there's we
Speaker 1: have three trans students in our class, and they're actually
Speaker 1: not trans, you know, they're uh, non binary or there.
Speaker 1: You know, there are other things. But people, I think
Speaker 1: more and more get confused by these identifying factors, um,
Speaker 1: which actually causes the youth more trouble that they're what
Speaker 1: they're actually experiencing anyway. Yeah, and I think what's happened
Speaker 1: in the last decade, the last even five years, is
Speaker 1: that young people are helping us understand ourselves and so um,
Speaker 1: you know, transgender literally means you know, changing moving gender.
Speaker 1: And there are a lot of kids who are now
Speaker 1: saying the binary the sort of male or female doesn't
Speaker 1: apply to me at all. So it's not that I'm transgender.
Speaker 1: It's just that I reject the idea that I can
Speaker 1: only express myself in a masculine way that's consistent with
Speaker 1: being called a boy at birth. I want to be
Speaker 1: something that is neither boy nor girl. Is just me.
Speaker 1: There are increasing numbers of young people who are asserting
Speaker 1: that for themselves. And then it's complicated because for many
Speaker 1: trans kids, they view themselves not as trans, but as
Speaker 1: a boy or a girl that is different from how
Speaker 1: they were assigned at birth. So there are you know,
Speaker 1: kids who say, like, the truth is, I'm just a girl.
Speaker 1: Even though I was born as a boy and people
Speaker 1: understood me as a male, I'm a girl and so
Speaker 1: um so, I mean they think one of the you know,
Speaker 1: existential adventures that were in the middle of kind of
Speaker 1: in terms of the society understanding it, being open to
Speaker 1: and understanding how young people see themselves and want to
Speaker 1: see themselves. Um. And what we know from developmental science
Speaker 1: is that honoring that is is what's important for young
Speaker 1: people in their well being. Do you think that that
Speaker 1: teenagers know at birth? This is really interesting and complicated
Speaker 1: And I think that that's you know, that's why I'm
Speaker 1: asking you, and you know, there's still a lot to
Speaker 1: be learned on that. I'm going to say something that
Speaker 1: is kind of a rough generalization, but that that gender
Speaker 1: identity and understanding of yourself with respect to gender is
Speaker 1: really something that happens really young and very early. We've
Speaker 1: known this for you know, sixty years. We've known that,
Speaker 1: you know, sex dimorphism, that toddlers begin to understand what
Speaker 1: you know, what's what are girl things and what are
Speaker 1: boy things? And they can point out, you know, anatomy,
Speaker 1: and they can they can learn, oh, I am a
Speaker 1: boy or I am a girl, especially if they are
Speaker 1: sis gender, and all of those things align and are
Speaker 1: simple and for them to understand. There's pretty good understanding
Speaker 1: that gender identity develops in childhood. The difference is that
Speaker 1: sexual orientation and identity. UM. There's kind of a mix
Speaker 1: of people who will say, I've always known that I
Speaker 1: was different with respect to my desires attraction of the
Speaker 1: people that I want to be emotionally, romantically and you know,
Speaker 1: ultimately sexually involved with. I always I've always known that
Speaker 1: was different. Um. And then there are folks for whom
Speaker 1: that emerges around the time of the changes that we
Speaker 1: think of as puberty. So around the sort of second
Speaker 1: decade when our bodies and minds begin to really change.
Speaker 1: That brings up for people an understanding of their gender,
Speaker 1: their sexuality. The thing that's important about the adolescence period,
Speaker 1: it's so embedded in our family relationships, our relationships with
Speaker 1: our peers, and the larger world and what's happening in
Speaker 1: the larger society that um, you know, the adventure for
Speaker 1: the social and developmental scientists is disentangling all that and
Speaker 1: trying to understand what's going on for kids. But it's
Speaker 1: clear that understanding of sexual identity has to be understood
Speaker 1: adolescents as a product of relationships kids have, the school
Speaker 1: there are, but also the social and historical moment they're in.
Speaker 1: I would imagine that, Um, there's a lot of pushback
Speaker 1: with people that aren't as sort of self actualized about
Speaker 1: this world that they say, well, they're too young, it's
Speaker 1: a phase. Uh, they're too young to know what they want. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, these are all things you hear out in
Speaker 1: our culture, um, as well as particularly kids that want
Speaker 1: to transition. What do you think about that? Yeah, this
Speaker 1: is when I think the thoughtful and caring medical psychological
Speaker 1: professionals and families need to really think with a child
Speaker 1: about what's best for them, because I don't think that
Speaker 1: there is a single answer. What I do think we
Speaker 1: know now there are um you know, there have been
Speaker 1: gender clinics in the Netherlands for much longer than in
Speaker 1: the United States, and you know, starting about five years ago,
Speaker 1: we had the first studies that tracked people long enough.
Speaker 1: Uh and the very first humrital interventions are pretty clearly
Speaker 1: showing in adulthood, meaning following people for you know, a
Speaker 1: decade or more. AH, people who transition, who are who
Speaker 1: are able to transition and allowed to transition early in
Speaker 1: life have adult body satisfaction, emotional health, physical health that
Speaker 1: is equivalent to everybody else in the general population. That
Speaker 1: to me is the most important kind of information that
Speaker 1: we need, because we're still a decade away from really
Speaker 1: having that that level of knowledge for you know, robust,
Speaker 1: diverse populations around the globe and especially here at home
Speaker 1: the United States, and it's complicated, especially for families. I
Speaker 1: think balancing some kids really have significant emotional need to
Speaker 1: express themselves in a differently gendered way. For those kids,
Speaker 1: I think the compelling emotional need may outweigh concerns that
Speaker 1: we have that are real because we don't have aging
Speaker 1: people who had hormone replacement therapy. That's not a thing
Speaker 1: we've had, so we really don't know what the physiological
Speaker 1: long term influences might be overall, Right, balancing all those things,
Speaker 1: I think is something that families need to think through carefully,
Speaker 1: and and increasingly there's a conversation about like how much
Speaker 1: self determination you can children have, And we know pretty
Speaker 1: well every kid is different, but you know, age thirteen
Speaker 1: fourteen is when we're pretty clear that the reasoning function
Speaker 1: of the cognitive capacity of the brain has the same
Speaker 1: reasoning capacity as an adult brain, and we can understand
Speaker 1: what it means to have a future orientation. I mean,
Speaker 1: I would think it's it's a lot for a thirteen
Speaker 1: year old that knows they want to transition and to
Speaker 1: have to wait till quote unquote adulthood is many years
Speaker 1: of pain, right, and and if we're talking about pharmacological
Speaker 1: intervention um post pounding, that could really make a difference
Speaker 1: for the rest of their life in terms of their
Speaker 1: physical expression and movement in the world, and that is significant.
Speaker 1: You know, the question of breast development or facial development
Speaker 1: really makes the difference for how you live in the world.
Speaker 1: Imagining at thirteen what it's going to be like at
Speaker 1: sixteen is a really big deal. And so those are
Speaker 1: valid concerns for us to help our kids think through
Speaker 1: and for parents to try to anticipate, we're going to
Speaker 1: take a short break and we'll be right back. Welcome
Speaker 1: back with more go ask Galley discussed with me because
Speaker 1: I know you've spoken about the school to prison pipeline.
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that school to prison pipeline
Speaker 1: is the ways that we systematically exclude some kids from
Speaker 1: education that makes the vulnerable to and is literally a
Speaker 1: pipeline into the juvenile justice system. And starting about five
Speaker 1: years ago, scholars started to be concerned about the ways
Speaker 1: that we saw other forms of not fitting in with
Speaker 1: what it means to be uh quote good student in
Speaker 1: the context of you know, thirty kids in the classroom
Speaker 1: American junior high in high schools. We've known this actually
Speaker 1: for a while about kids with learning challenges that they're
Speaker 1: more likely to experience exclusionary discipline and to be in
Speaker 1: the justice system. Uh. It turns out we see the
Speaker 1: same kinds of patterns for LGBTQ kids and our studies
Speaker 1: have shown at that for girls it's often because they're
Speaker 1: perceived as aggressive. For boys, it's because they're putting on
Speaker 1: having makeup, being gender different and being told you can't
Speaker 1: wear nail polished. If girls can wear now polish, why
Speaker 1: can't boys were now polish. But you know, a boy
Speaker 1: getting suspended and then being on the street and getting
Speaker 1: picked up for being truant, and then in a juvenile
Speaker 1: setting there more likely to be teased, you know, or worse.
Speaker 1: And so kids, lgbt Q kids are more likely the
Speaker 1: target of victimization being in a fight. You may not
Speaker 1: want to tell the principle they were calling them yea,
Speaker 1: calling me a fag when they were hitting me, because
Speaker 1: maybe you're not ready to confront that about yourself. Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course you're certainly not going to come out to
Speaker 1: your principle first. But and also gay students, if they
Speaker 1: express um their sexuality by holding hands or kissing, they're
Speaker 1: more likely to be suspended than kind of your heterosexual
Speaker 1: holding hands were making out. So do you feel like
Speaker 1: the LGBTQ students are set up to fail right now
Speaker 1: in our country? I say, I think it depends on
Speaker 1: where they live and what kind of you know, what
Speaker 1: we know makes a big difference. The thing that's encouraging
Speaker 1: is that we have so much new research in the
Speaker 1: last decade to really document, for example, with respect to schools,
Speaker 1: we know that inclusive and nondiscrimination policies make such a
Speaker 1: huge difference for just the setting of schools, reigning teachers.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing. Most teachers really do want to do
Speaker 1: it's right for children. They're there because they care and
Speaker 1: they want kids to thrive. And a lot of teachers
Speaker 1: and parents too don't get it. Gender regulation is actually
Speaker 1: undermining kids, not helping them to fit in and be safe.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you Obama had directives for
Speaker 1: schools to protect transgender students. Are they still in place
Speaker 1: or have they under That was resented? That was that
Speaker 1: was an early thing that was resented from the US
Speaker 1: Department of Education. Okay. And the other thing I've read
Speaker 1: that smaller schools have a tendency to be more compassionate.
Speaker 1: That uh, the smaller the community. Um have you found
Speaker 1: has a tendency to be more empathetic and more inclusive.
Speaker 1: Um have you found that in your studies to be true?
Speaker 1: I think it's contingent on leadership and on the things
Speaker 1: like policies and strategies and schools. I think in principle
Speaker 1: that's true that in smaller communities people are more likely
Speaker 1: to know one enough and understand one another, and there
Speaker 1: is some degree of kind of exceptionalism like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I might not like the gays, but you know, so
Speaker 1: sana is. It's not like that she's the person that
Speaker 1: we've grown up with and so um, there's some degree
Speaker 1: of exceptionalism. But the culture in the context of classrooms
Speaker 1: and schools is really kind of the main thing that
Speaker 1: is going to drive how kids do and do we
Speaker 1: have a school setting where the culture is that everyone
Speaker 1: is treated with respect and fairness. You know, do we
Speaker 1: have leaders among students that assert that, you know, everybody
Speaker 1: has a right to an opinion, everybody has a right
Speaker 1: to space, that we don't act that way in our school,
Speaker 1: that we all get along here? What do you what
Speaker 1: do you think about like celebrities, YouTubers, Instagram personalities. Have
Speaker 1: they been helpful? Because I know, certainly with my own kids,
Speaker 1: they see movies where you know, the best friend is
Speaker 1: trend or gay or and the more it gets into
Speaker 1: the main stream of what teenagers watch it seems to
Speaker 1: be kind of breaking a lot of stereotypes. Have you
Speaker 1: found that? Yeah, you know, there's the good and the
Speaker 1: bad of all of the dimensions of that. Those of
Speaker 1: us who are old enough to remember when Helen came out,
Speaker 1: you know, on television, there was literally nothing, I mean,
Speaker 1: it was absolute deafening silence in media and that literally
Speaker 1: within two years there wasn't such thing as a show
Speaker 1: that didn't have a gay character. What followed from that
Speaker 1: was sort of the stereotypes. And I think what LGBTQ
Speaker 1: kids continually struggle with is like, huh, who am I
Speaker 1: and what am I going to become? And if you
Speaker 1: are sort of only seeing a certain kind of version
Speaker 1: of that gay meant rich white guy, I think that's
Speaker 1: where we have challenges. I think sometimes also those messages
Speaker 1: are simplistic, you know, like that it gets better. That
Speaker 1: was so compelling for so many people like us who
Speaker 1: were middle aged. Well, I'll speak for myself, I could
Speaker 1: be month Okay, I don't think so anyway. Uh So
Speaker 1: for people who were looking back and thinking of that
Speaker 1: the middle school is healthful and that's true, and that
Speaker 1: the way that was so undermining for so many kids
Speaker 1: who felt like, I don't want to wait. I'm getting
Speaker 1: harassed every single day when I go to school, and
Speaker 1: I frankly prefer not to wait until things are some
Speaker 1: days somehow somewhat better. There has been sort of among
Speaker 1: advocates among youth pushback on that message that like, we
Speaker 1: shouldn't use that as an excuse to settle for good
Speaker 1: enough schools for our kids or good enough faith communities
Speaker 1: for our kids. We should say, like, no, we should really,
Speaker 1: you know, make sure that things are better now. And
Speaker 1: we're we are learning a lot about what can make
Speaker 1: that happen. So much of my focus has been on
Speaker 1: schooling because that is the place where the rubber often
Speaker 1: meets the road. Would ant appear community before it comes home, right,
Speaker 1: And so it's an institution that where the public has
Speaker 1: a stake, and we can make policy changes in ways
Speaker 1: that we can't relate with families. We can't make families
Speaker 1: change their minds about things, right, but we can say
Speaker 1: the schools, you might not change your mind, but you
Speaker 1: should at least stop discriminating, or you should at least
Speaker 1: create systems so that kids don't get you know, bullied
Speaker 1: or harassed at school. Um so at least at school.
Speaker 1: Like you said, they can you know, implement a safer environment.
Speaker 1: And I do want to talk to you about how
Speaker 1: we can push lgbt studies into the school curriculum. But
Speaker 1: the home life you can't change now they're they're at
Speaker 1: home in most parts of this country with the family
Speaker 1: that you know, in terms of data and percentages are
Speaker 1: not supporting them. Um, how do we help these students
Speaker 1: that are in quarantine right now? Yeah, it's really hard.
Speaker 1: There are many lgbt Q kids whose experiences now that
Speaker 1: they are re closeting in a way. I mean that
Speaker 1: in fact, maybe their only place to have that expression
Speaker 1: was at school because they were not out at home.
Speaker 1: You were sort of navigated with your family that you
Speaker 1: were out, but you're real place to be out was
Speaker 1: at school. And so now you're home and you're the
Speaker 1: re closeting. Idea point about like not bringing it up,
Speaker 1: not having it be the focus of attention, that conversation
Speaker 1: that we've all been avoiding, and even though we've had it,
Speaker 1: we're avoiding it. But one of the classic indication of
Speaker 1: family rejection for lgbt Q kids is parent regulating their
Speaker 1: peer networks, saying you can't hang out with those kids,
Speaker 1: or you can't go to that group, or you can't
Speaker 1: you know, or monitoring their media, their social or digital
Speaker 1: media use. Can I go to that site? Or can
Speaker 1: I you know, text or email the friends? And so
Speaker 1: parents do that because it's the right thing to do
Speaker 1: in general for kids, right knowing who we are, who
Speaker 1: are with, and where we are. Yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: I struggle with it too, but I will say that
Speaker 1: during this pandemic, I have been a lot more lenient
Speaker 1: about screen time because it is their only way to socialize.
Speaker 1: Thinking about lgbt Q teens, I think and I hope
Speaker 1: that at least when they're in their rooms and they're
Speaker 1: struggling with whatever they're struggling with, especially with a family
Speaker 1: that maybe doesn't support them, that there are support groups.
Speaker 1: There are places that they can go during this period,
Speaker 1: even if they have to kind of put this, as
Speaker 1: you said, conversation on hold there. The Center link is
Speaker 1: a great national resource, and they have online chats. Now
Speaker 1: they've had this for for a while now, but I
Speaker 1: think those are really taking off as a place where
Speaker 1: adult facilitated for the kid that doesn't have their own room,
Speaker 1: for the kid that doesn't have their own computer or
Speaker 1: their own you know, eye tool or phone or whatever,
Speaker 1: you know, whatever it is that they need for their schooling. Um,
Speaker 1: what if the only space you have is with the sibling.
Speaker 1: What if the only space you have is in the
Speaker 1: living room of a of a family space. So I
Speaker 1: think we're seeing the you know, cultural diversity, social class
Speaker 1: diversity plant impacting not only just schooling, but then compounded
Speaker 1: with the social emotional development and sustaining the lives of
Speaker 1: the LGBTQ kids and kids at the intersection of other
Speaker 1: sort of disadvantaged and marginal marginalized groups. We really have
Speaker 1: to be concerned about. And the relentless optimist is that
Speaker 1: we are learning dramatically new things that are going to
Speaker 1: change the way we will be from now on. This
Speaker 1: is a cohort defining a generation, defining moment. There will
Speaker 1: be a couple of years of kids that will say,
Speaker 1: my high school years were those COVID years, and I
Speaker 1: will always have hand sanitizer in my you know, back
Speaker 1: pocket for the rest of my life. I think masks
Speaker 1: would be like condoms, like you need both, you gotta
Speaker 1: have them and um. So I think adapting to digital
Speaker 1: communication is what young people have always done all cultures.
Speaker 1: Young people are the innovators. I mean not exclusively, but
Speaker 1: look at all of the people that we think of
Speaker 1: us billionaires, and you know, trace back where their innovation
Speaker 1: came from is when they were you know, teenagers tinkering
Speaker 1: around in a garage or an attic or a backyard
Speaker 1: or somewhere. These sort of dilemmas are going to help
Speaker 1: kids be resilient. Ah, but I am nervous about the
Speaker 1: ways that it's undermining kids in the moment. I think
Speaker 1: that's the thing that we as parents need to be
Speaker 1: concerned about. Now, a quick word from our sponsors, welcome
Speaker 1: back to go ask Gali. Let's get back to the discussion.
Speaker 1: Let's assume that there are some parents listening to this
Speaker 1: podcast who have a child who is a l g
Speaker 1: B t Q youth teenager and they are struggling with
Speaker 1: acceptance or they are struggling with how to support their teenager. Um,
Speaker 1: what kind of words of wisdom can you give these parents?
Speaker 1: As well? What I've learned from parents, especially from studying
Speaker 1: parent rejection Yes Kids, is that nobody really wants to
Speaker 1: reject their children. I think it's so core to our
Speaker 1: understanding and vision and imagination for our kids, like what
Speaker 1: we think they're going to be someday. So if it's
Speaker 1: rooted in faith, it's so core to who to our
Speaker 1: fundamental beliefs about ourselves in the world. You can maintain
Speaker 1: your faith, belief and support the thriving of your kid
Speaker 1: at the same time that those don't have to be
Speaker 1: in conflict. The minority of people I think that really
Speaker 1: sort of fundamentally believed that to two men or two
Speaker 1: women should not be married. Um, you know, if you
Speaker 1: can put that on pause for now. When your kid
Speaker 1: is not asking you if they can get married, they're
Speaker 1: asking you like, can I, you know, watch this show,
Speaker 1: or can I wear this outfit? Or can I cut
Speaker 1: my hair in a certain way. When we when we
Speaker 1: regulate them and when we tell them that it's not okay,
Speaker 1: if we can just back off from those, message is
Speaker 1: they will thrive. They will be okay. Kids don't need
Speaker 1: their parents acceptance because then they have nothing to complain about.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is part of what it needs to
Speaker 1: be a teenager. And when you show the statistics about depression, suicide,
Speaker 1: substanceies and you say, we know that if you can
Speaker 1: back off from these things, if you can, If you
Speaker 1: can quit telling them that who they are is not okay,
Speaker 1: your kid will do better. And most most parents are
Speaker 1: willing to do that. And then you know, they realize
Speaker 1: this is not the end of the world. My kid
Speaker 1: is actually the person I love, and they're becoming who
Speaker 1: they're supposed to be in the world. Like I can
Speaker 1: say to teachers, I'm not trying to change your values.
Speaker 1: You don't have to like suddenly be in favor of
Speaker 1: I'm just going to use gay marriage because that was
Speaker 1: the thing we talked about for a while. You don't
Speaker 1: have to be in favor of that to make sure
Speaker 1: that that kid is okay in the classroom this week.
Speaker 1: How can all kids have an equal chance at education?
Speaker 1: I completely agree with you, and I think it's so
Speaker 1: important because I think what happens is um particularly with parents,
Speaker 1: is they make a huge leap from Oh I just
Speaker 1: saw you know, Frannie kissing Jane. Oh my god, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to have grandchildren. Oh my god, this is
Speaker 1: so Antichrist. You know, whatever they wherever they go to
Speaker 1: that to just like you said, put it on hold,
Speaker 1: be so helpful for their psychological growth. I imagine, and
Speaker 1: I feel and I try to support the LGBTQ community
Speaker 1: because I could really weep for the students who have
Speaker 1: that at home, that anger and an unaccepting household, and
Speaker 1: then go to school and are bullied. Um. And so
Speaker 1: if we can just give a little bit of guidance
Speaker 1: to parents, and you are definitely doing with schools, a
Speaker 1: little bit of of hope for them, then you know,
Speaker 1: get these kids through their teenage years, like you said,
Speaker 1: consequently they will be I think the parents, if they
Speaker 1: are more accepting, will still maintain that connection with them
Speaker 1: when they get older and make whatever decisions they make
Speaker 1: in the world. And it's complicated by the fact of adolescence.
Speaker 1: I mean, the reality is people used to come out
Speaker 1: when they were in their twenties and thirties and forties,
Speaker 1: and now they're coming out when they're sixteen, fifteen, fourteen,
Speaker 1: or six seven, you know, with respect to gender identity expression.
Speaker 1: And I think that the dilemma right now that we're
Speaker 1: in that there have not been models for being a
Speaker 1: supportive parent of a queer kid. We haven't really had that.
Speaker 1: I mean, the next generation will have that, but right
Speaker 1: now we're making it up having a trans child. Um.
Speaker 1: The deep profound, incredible confrontation to their imagination for that
Speaker 1: child is going to be in the world. And how like,
Speaker 1: what was so concerning to me about the idea that
Speaker 1: my child that was born as Robert is going to
Speaker 1: be my beautiful daughter? Like the whole point of the
Speaker 1: human species is that were resilient. I mean, that's why
Speaker 1: we exist as we do um And so I think
Speaker 1: families are fundamentally resilient, and almost all parents I want
Speaker 1: to do right by their kids. So I think it's
Speaker 1: really helping families understand that it is those it's the
Speaker 1: things that we're doing, the everyday small things that actually
Speaker 1: get under the skin and erode our kids well being.
Speaker 1: You know, I came out when I was twenty six.
Speaker 1: I lived independently, was financially mostly independent, and didn't rely
Speaker 1: emotionally economically financially on my parents. And I wasn't his
Speaker 1: maldi And you know, there was no outgay people at
Speaker 1: the university where I went in the It was in
Speaker 1: the in the South and in the eighties that just
Speaker 1: that much has changed, and so my ability to emotionally
Speaker 1: regulate myself when I was coming out to my parents,
Speaker 1: and my parents saying, you know, my mom saying, you
Speaker 1: don't expect me to tell anybody to do and it's like, Mom,
Speaker 1: I don't expect to tell anybody. Well, of course the
Speaker 1: first thing she did was call and tell people. But
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I mean I have to say that
Speaker 1: sometimes coming out stories are so helpful to younger people.
Speaker 1: I mean I have many friends that have, you know,
Speaker 1: told my kids they're coming out story, because when they
Speaker 1: tell the story and the parents empower them, everybody's like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, your parents are so great. Um, will
Speaker 1: you tell me a little bit about you as a
Speaker 1: parent before before we sign off? Just tell me about
Speaker 1: your kids and sort of how you parent them. Sure,
Speaker 1: it's a wild, long story, so I don't know how
Speaker 1: much time you have. But my son is twenty five
Speaker 1: and he was an undocumented immigrant. He was their team.
Speaker 1: We were not lucky to be parents. We had an
Speaker 1: immigration attorney friend who called and said, like, there's a
Speaker 1: gay kid who's undocumented who needs at home right now.
Speaker 1: Can you do it? And we looked at each other
Speaker 1: and said, uh, I guess so we should probably do that.
Speaker 1: And he's amazing And it was an adventure because we
Speaker 1: were like it was pretty The funny part of course
Speaker 1: was that we were like, oh my god, what do
Speaker 1: we do? And people kept saying to me, aren't you
Speaker 1: an expert on this? Likesed to know something, and I
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, I never thought about I'm not.
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about raising a kid. They're like, wait,
Speaker 1: you're the expert. I'm just curious. It's just one kid
Speaker 1: or two? Just one? Just one? Yeah? And did you
Speaker 1: have to learn Spanish? It's super interesting, like a very
Speaker 1: sort of classic immigrant story. He was not, and he
Speaker 1: did not want to speak Spanish. I think he had
Speaker 1: a lot of trauma, and he also was invested in
Speaker 1: rejecting the Mexican part of who he was. He understood
Speaker 1: it as poor and homophobic and you know, negative, and
Speaker 1: that was that was a hard thing for us for
Speaker 1: a long time, was helping him understand actually HOMOPHOBI he's
Speaker 1: not owned by certain groups, like there are plenty of
Speaker 1: white people that are. Um. So he got he got
Speaker 1: to grow up in this this incredibly nurturing environment. Yes,
Speaker 1: he The super interesting thing for him was like the
Speaker 1: three sixty twice from from a really one kind of
Speaker 1: life to a to another one to a middle class
Speaker 1: where the last thing he needed to worry about was
Speaker 1: being gay. Um, we had so many interesting wild stories
Speaker 1: about you know, raising a gay teenager these days, and
Speaker 1: especially him. But you know, for example, I do all
Speaker 1: this research on high school gender sexuality alliance clubs, case
Speaker 1: straight alliance clubs g s A, and there was a
Speaker 1: g s A at his school, and I was friends
Speaker 1: with the faculty sponsor the g s A. And I
Speaker 1: kept saying him, why don't you go to the g
Speaker 1: s Have you thought about the g s A? And
Speaker 1: it finally he didn't. He was not interested, and I
Speaker 1: finally said, what's the deal with the g s A.
Speaker 1: He said, Look, all the kids at g s A
Speaker 1: complained about their parents and not being able to be
Speaker 1: at at home, and I just like, I just don't
Speaker 1: want to hang out with them. I thought, how interesting,
Speaker 1: my kid like doesn't connect with the gay kids because
Speaker 1: they're struggling with coming out. And he's like, been there,
Speaker 1: done that. And actually, one of his big problems as
Speaker 1: a teenager dating was that all the little boys he
Speaker 1: wanted to date wanted to date him but didn't want
Speaker 1: anyone to know. And he thought like he was so
Speaker 1: he was ahead of his time in that way because
Speaker 1: he was like, you know, it was all out there
Speaker 1: for him, be his his his life circumstance, and he
Speaker 1: was the gay kid with the gay dads, and so
Speaker 1: he was like, I can't believe these stupid boys are
Speaker 1: too ashamed of being gay. And I'm like, well, honey, yeah,
Speaker 1: they had a really they have a really different experience
Speaker 1: than you have. You have to be exactly very proud
Speaker 1: of him. Yeah, I call that a success story. And
Speaker 1: he's just he's a really sweet guy, which is nice.
Speaker 1: How would you direct anybody that wanted to get involved
Speaker 1: in an activist kind of way politically about helping schools
Speaker 1: be more inclusive with the LGBTQ communities or have there
Speaker 1: any place you would direct people. Listen is the is
Speaker 1: amazing national organization for LGBTQ issues and education and so
Speaker 1: and there are chapters all around the country. So Listen
Speaker 1: is like the go to and then uh, you know,
Speaker 1: reach out. I mean one of the things I say
Speaker 1: when I do workshops or I visit teachers, or I say,
Speaker 1: you know, does your school have an inclusive nodscript nation policy?
Speaker 1: And there are many many blank faces in the room,
Speaker 1: even if people that are well meaning, even if people
Speaker 1: that are advocates for their kids. And I think that
Speaker 1: kind of really concrete. Call your superintendent, call your school
Speaker 1: board members, and say, why don't we include sexual orientation
Speaker 1: and gender identity and expression in our non discrimination policy.
Speaker 1: Have our teachers men trained on understanding and supporting LGBTQ
Speaker 1: young people. And when you know of families that are
Speaker 1: experiencing dilemmas for their kids that are LGBTQ, become involved.
Speaker 1: So like think of uh, any LGBTQ kid as our kids.
Speaker 1: And so I really think that parents make a huge
Speaker 1: difference in moving to dial in schools. And I think
Speaker 1: when um, what happens, I think for many parents of
Speaker 1: LGBTQ kids is their kids may be the only kid,
Speaker 1: The parent may feel isolated, the parent may feel like
Speaker 1: they don't know where to go. P FLAG Parents and
Speaker 1: Friends of Lesbian and Gay is an important also national
Speaker 1: organization for parents. UM. But what I would say to
Speaker 1: the parents of the CIS straight kids is like, listen
Speaker 1: to your kids, find out what's happening, and be an
Speaker 1: ally to the parents of kids who are you know,
Speaker 1: going to the school board of the principle that was
Speaker 1: not absolutely absolutely well, Stephen, this has been great. I
Speaker 1: cannot wait to shoot the movie based on the book
Speaker 1: Based in your Life. Oh my god, I love that part.
Speaker 1: A chapter in the book will be about being a
Speaker 1: cheer mom. I was a cheer mom for my son.
Speaker 1: My son integrated the Tucson h cheer and the stories
Speaker 1: that I had. I would go to these meetings and
Speaker 1: I was one of the only dads. I would tornament
Speaker 1: my kids and say like, do you want to get
Speaker 1: my nails done with the badger because all the moms
Speaker 1: have their nails done with badgers for the football game.
Speaker 1: He's like, oh, that's great. I mean, but by the way,
Speaker 1: teenagers are embarrassed of your parents no matter what you do. Anyway,
Speaker 1: That's all I do is embarrass my daughters. Stephen Russell,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being on go skally. This
Speaker 1: has been really great. It's been so nice to talk
Speaker 1: to you about sort of what you're doing and your
Speaker 1: thoughts and I think you know, for me, this is
Speaker 1: a particularly important issue for parents, and thank you. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. It's really fun. Thank you for tuning
Speaker 1: in to go ask Ali. Feel free to write a review, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe,
Speaker 1: or follow me on social media on Instagram. The Real
Speaker 1: Ali Wentworth and Twitter Ali E. Wentworth. Go ask Alli
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