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Speaker 1: Cool Z Media. Hello, and welcome to Cool People Do

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Speaker 1: Cool Stuff, the podcast about people who have been designated

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Speaker 1: as cool by a random lady with a microphone.

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Speaker 2: It's me. I'm that lady, Harder Kiljoy.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Matt Leeb.

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Speaker 3: Hey, I'm here and I'm Matt, and I'm excited to

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Speaker 3: be here, very happy. We're going to talk about some

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Speaker 3: cool people and the cool stuff that they did. It's

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Speaker 3: a nice break for me from talking about bad people

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Speaker 3: who did bets.

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Speaker 1: That's right, because Matt is a comedian and I podcaster

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Speaker 1: on pod yourself a gun and also a shoplifter.

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Speaker 2: That's right. I was a I mean quite.

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Speaker 3: Well, I was a prolific shoplifter when between I think

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Speaker 3: fourth and fifth grade stole from the West Side Pavilion

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Speaker 3: Rip a mall that.

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Speaker 2: Is no longer. I know. It was so amazing, I know,

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Speaker 2: and it's like, oh.

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Speaker 1: Is this the one that people tried to buy to

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Speaker 1: turn into a community center recently?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately it's now Google.

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Speaker 2: Is it Google? Is that what that building is? Is

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Speaker 2: that Google? No? So it was people.

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Speaker 3: You would know this mall as the mall from Clueless,

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Speaker 3: the mall that Ty almost died in when those hot

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Speaker 3: boys tried to pretend to push her. Yeah, but but

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Speaker 3: then she lived and then she got like, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: just real cocky about it, like real conceited. And then

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Speaker 3: she called Share a virgin who couldn't drive, and that

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Speaker 3: was way harsh, but true, it was it was, it

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Speaker 3: was true.

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Speaker 2: She was a urge.

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Speaker 1: This is this is a fictional movie. But yes, the.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I got arrested there once. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm

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Speaker 2: pretty cool.

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Speaker 3: If you're wondering, I'm also an anti Zionist Jew, and

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Speaker 3: I talk a lot about Zionism and what it is

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Speaker 3: and what it isn't on my Instagram at matt leeb jokes.

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Speaker 3: If you like jokes and if you like hearing about

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Speaker 3: anti Zionism, and even if you are like a soft scientist,

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Speaker 3: liberal Zionist or whatnot.

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Speaker 2: I think it would be helpful check out.

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Speaker 3: The content because it's you know, I think it's it's

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Speaker 3: my view on it, and I think we would be

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Speaker 3: better to understand what Zionism is not. And one thing

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Speaker 3: it is not is it is not Judaism.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that is a better introduction to this entire topic. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: our producers, Sophie Hi, Sophie.

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Speaker 2: Hi, I also committed crimes at that all, allegedly allegedly

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Speaker 2: alleged by you.

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Speaker 3: I've just stolen things too, but none of the same

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Speaker 3: them all is us.

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Speaker 1: I've never been to this mall. I've only been to

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Speaker 1: La and short fared of moments.

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Speaker 2: Moments.

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Speaker 3: Well now it's Googlers, it's a Google.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Well now it's even cooler to steal from.

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 1: I'd love to go in there and get some staplers. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: probably anyway.

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Speaker 3: They probably have headphones though, All those tech companies have

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Speaker 3: like just baskets of headphones. When I lived in San Francisco,

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Speaker 3: I would occasionally have a friend who worked at like Facebook,

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Speaker 3: and we'd go to like the campus and eat eat

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Speaker 3: all the pizza, and take all the headphones.

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Speaker 2: It was so sick.

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Speaker 1: People ask all the time about how to start a podcast,

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Speaker 1: and the answer is you go to the Google headquarters

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Speaker 1: and you steal things from them. Headphones, Yes, just headphones,

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Speaker 1: just audio equipment.

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Speaker 2: It's all you really need.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, then you have a podcast. Time in jail, put

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Speaker 3: your headphones in, let the cord dangle, go to a

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Speaker 3: bus stop and start screaming. Yeah, that's essentially what a

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Speaker 3: podcast is.

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Speaker 2: We're being on us more.

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Speaker 1: Or less is but we we're different because we have

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Speaker 1: an audio engineer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It was like I was going to say, I I don't.

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Speaker 4: Recall hi, thank you for everything that you do, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: the unsung Hero, because I haven't put it to music yet,

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Speaker 4: we're singing it in Thanks for the things that you.

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Speaker 2: Do for the show. What was kind of beautiful. Thanks. Thanks.

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Speaker 1: I have a metal band, So you have.

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Speaker 3: A metal band, and you didn't steal from the Lizard Pavilion.

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Speaker 2: Enough.

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Speaker 1: Very punk magpie. I know, I'm just not punk. I

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Speaker 1: know that song walking in La. That's everything I know

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Speaker 1: about La is that no one walks there according to

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Speaker 1: a punk song from the eighties that might not be

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Speaker 1: punk yeah.

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Speaker 3: Or Beverly Hills Century City, that circle jerk song.

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Speaker 2: Hell yeah, that's a good song. Go ahead.

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Speaker 1: One woman wrote our theme music and this is part

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Speaker 1: two of a two parter about Israeli and international solidarity

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Speaker 1: with Palestinian struggle and where we last cliffhangered. I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to leave it in an actual cliffhanger. I was like,

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Speaker 1: will the IDF kill this American woman? And the answer

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Speaker 1: was going to be yes, And so now we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about her because she was really fucking cool

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Speaker 1: and really fucking brave. She was one of many, many

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Speaker 1: brave people who are part of the International Solidarity movement.

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Speaker 1: Rachel Corey was born in nineteen seventy nine and grew

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Speaker 1: up in Olympia, Washington to a middle class, kind of

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Speaker 1: centrist family. She went to Evergreen, the kind of hippie

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Speaker 1: school in Washington in Olympia, and soon she was an activist,

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Speaker 1: basically joining the same era of alter globalization movement stuff

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Speaker 1: that I did. Her anarchist boyfriend told a reporter later

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Speaker 1: that quote. Although Rachel didn't like labels, she could be

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Speaker 1: fairly described as an anarchist too. An article in The

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Speaker 1: Stranger was like wildly confused by this whole anarchism thing,

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Speaker 1: But most of the ism volunteers at this point were

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Speaker 1: anarchists coming out of that alter globalization movement, and the

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Speaker 1: same sort of people who would have been, you know,

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Speaker 1: trying to stop free trade agreements that were stripping resources

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Speaker 1: from developing nations. Yeah, soon enough she's involved in the

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Speaker 1: International Solidarity movement and she wanted to set up a

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Speaker 1: formal sister city relationship between Olympia and RAFA, which is

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Speaker 1: a city in the southern part of the Gaza Strip,

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Speaker 1: next to the border with Egypt. So she went to

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Speaker 1: Gaza and she spent and she joins the ISM, and

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Speaker 1: she spent a month protecting a well, which is just

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Speaker 1: inherently noble, like poisoning the wells is like literally the

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Speaker 1: classic bad thing to do if you're an army.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know.

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Speaker 1: And the Israeli military kept destroying this one well and

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Speaker 1: then firing on all the municipal workers who came out

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Speaker 1: to fix it. So the ISM went and human shielded

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Speaker 1: the municipal workers who are trying to fix a well. Wow,

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Speaker 1: because they're scary.

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Speaker 3: Human shield Yeah, human shields who are human shielding on

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Speaker 3: their own volition. Who would have thought, yeah, yeah, And you'll,

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Speaker 3: you know, if you get deep into, you know, reading

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Speaker 3: about Israeli apartheid in the way it works, a lot

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Speaker 3: of it is centered around control of water, which is

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Speaker 3: why you're like a well, why a well? And it's like, well,

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Speaker 3: read more about how much of the water in Gaza

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Speaker 3: is number one, controlled by Israel, all of it, and

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Speaker 3: how much of it is potable because not a lot

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Speaker 3: of it is actually safe for consumption, and it's a desert,

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Speaker 3: so you can understand, you know why water would be

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Speaker 3: important in the desert, but it's even more important considering

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Speaker 3: what happens, Yeah, during a siege.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so in two thousand and three, this thing was happening.

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Speaker 1: They won't be familiar to anyone at all. Some Palestinians

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Speaker 1: who were sick of decades of oppression have been fighting

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Speaker 1: back in the Second Antifada, So Israel decided to do

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Speaker 1: collective punishment the one and only time that they did this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and they said Sari and then it's all good, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: everything now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And as part of this collective punishment, they were bulldozing

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Speaker 1: people's houses. Ostensibly to quote the BBC quoting the Israeli authorities,

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Speaker 1: they were doing this because quote, demolitions were necessary because

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Speaker 1: Palestinian gunmen used the structure as cover to shoot at

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Speaker 1: their troops patrolling in the area or to conceal arms

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Speaker 1: smuggling tunnels under the Gaza Egypt border.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's from season two of Narcos Mexico.

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Speaker 2: L Chapo says that.

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Speaker 3: It's very cool, but I think an important thing in

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Speaker 3: terms of something that will contextualize this conflict that will

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Speaker 3: be very helpful for people I think is you have

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Speaker 3: to remember what the overall project is at the end

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Speaker 3: of the day for zionis and that is the complete

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Speaker 3: control of the land, including gods on the West Bank,

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Speaker 3: and the displacement or removal by any means necessary, of

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Speaker 3: the native population. So every time he hears, you know,

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Speaker 3: talk of bulldozing houses, you're gonna hear a thousand excuses

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Speaker 3: that you may or may not, you know, give credence

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Speaker 3: to where you'll be like, well, you know, I could

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Speaker 3: see how Just remember the whole point of the project

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Speaker 3: is to displace these people by any means necessary, and

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Speaker 3: that includes destroying homes. So I think looking at it

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Speaker 3: to that lens is important just to understand, just to

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Speaker 3: understand what's why if you want to understand why, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And i'd only had I previously thought that the

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Speaker 1: home demolitions were more specifically related to like clearing land

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Speaker 1: for the border, or we put a border in the

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Speaker 1: wrong place, and but this is like in the fucking

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Speaker 1: Gaza strip. This is absolutely like, this is like we

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Speaker 1: don't want you to have a place to live.

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Speaker 3: They do not respect borders either, So it's another thing

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Speaker 3: you'll hear about, like when apartheid walls are put up,

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Speaker 3: especially in the West Bank. Every time in apartheid wall

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Speaker 3: has been built or expanded on it has not been

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Speaker 3: based on some sort of nineteen pre nineteen sixty seven border.

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Speaker 3: It is always like okay, let's it's always pushing, pushing, pushing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's always say just get more land piecemeal, a

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Speaker 3: little bit out of time, and sometimes if the opportunity strikes,

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Speaker 3: a lot of bit at a time. So just remember

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Speaker 3: that's the point, that's the project.

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Speaker 1: So I sm volunteer started sleeping in various people's houses

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Speaker 1: that were slated for demolition, and they would do things

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Speaker 1: like paint we are here, and don't shoot on the

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Speaker 1: outside walls. And these outside walls are pockmarked by bullet

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Speaker 1: holes from Israeli guns. Rachel Corey stayed with one doctor

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Speaker 1: Samir Masri, about six times or so. Later, he said

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Speaker 1: about her quote, she was the fence to protect our building.

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Speaker 1: I consider her as a hero. I consider her and

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Speaker 1: everyone of the ism as a member of my family. Rachel,

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Speaker 1: she's twenty three years old. She's already used to standing

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Speaker 1: in front of bulldozers and Gaza Strip. She'd gone to

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Speaker 1: the Gaza Strip specifically because it was even more fucked

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Speaker 1: right then than the West Bank, and so fewer people

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Speaker 1: were willing to go there, so she felt more needed.

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Speaker 1: Long live Rachel Corey, Long live that spirit, Go where

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Speaker 1: you're needed. On March sixteenth, two thousand and three, she

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Speaker 1: stood in front of two armored bulldozers in a tank

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Speaker 1: that were coming to destroy Samir's He According to Samir

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Speaker 1: and basically every international group, and there were a lot

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Speaker 1: of witnesses, but not according to Israeli courts, the driver

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Speaker 1: saw her. Rachel had a microphone. The reasons one might

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Speaker 1: think that they saw her is that she had a

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Speaker 1: microphone with a speaker, and I was wearing a bright

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Speaker 1: like day glow orange jacket as a uniform. She has

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Speaker 1: said stop over and over again, and witnesses saw the

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Speaker 1: eye the driver make eye contact with her. The bulldozer

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Speaker 1: buried her alive, then backed up over her. The Red

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Speaker 1: Crescent got her out into a hospital, where she was

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Speaker 1: pronounced dead of suffocation, and the driver was never held accountable.

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Speaker 1: Rachel's family spent decades trying to get some semblance of

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Speaker 1: justice for what happened, and Israeli government just stuck to

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Speaker 1: their own. A few weeks later, after Corey died in

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Speaker 1: April two thousand and three, more ISMI activists who were

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Speaker 1: still in Rafa. There's a couple different accounts of this,

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Speaker 1: but the synthesis I putting together these accounts is that

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Speaker 1: the activists had decided to set up a peace tent

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Speaker 1: to block IDF patrols, like they're just kind of like

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Speaker 1: blocking where the IDF wants to drive through to go

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Speaker 1: patrol this area that they're not supposed to control. So

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Speaker 1: Israeli sniper's opened fire on the ism activists. The activist

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Speaker 1: took cover and then one British volunteer, his name was

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Speaker 1: Tom Herndall. He was twenty two years old. He was

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Speaker 1: an activist and a photographer. He saw that some kids

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Speaker 1: were being fired upon, so he ran out and grabbed

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Speaker 1: a girl and got her to safety, and then he

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Speaker 1: ran out again and an Israeli sniper shot him in

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Speaker 1: the head. He spent nine months in a coma before dying.

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Speaker 1: And this sniper was convicted of manslaughter and he basically

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Speaker 1: complained he was like, but my orders said it was

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Speaker 1: fine to shoot unarmed civilians, and I guess he missed

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Speaker 1: the note that it was don't shoot Westerners.

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Speaker 3: You know right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like, ah shit,

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Speaker 3: I forgot, yeah forgot it can't shoot the people who

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Speaker 3: don't know that we shoot people. Yeah, yeah, that's you know,

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Speaker 3: then they'll start getting mad about it, maybe start to

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Speaker 3: thinking we're not the most moral army in the world

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Speaker 3: as we so claim. Right, literally they do claim this

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Speaker 3: to be the most moral army in the world. Yes,

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Speaker 3: they literally, verbatim say we are the most moral army

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Speaker 3: in the world.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing. Yes, look it up. It is quite hilarious.

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Speaker 1: There's not a lot of moral armies, like overall. Those

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Speaker 1: are things that don't go like as a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a contradiction in terms. But yeah, but where I

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Speaker 1: would put Israel would not be the top of that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean I would.

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Speaker 3: If I was singing most moral army army in the world,

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Speaker 3: I would say the band Tiger Army. I feel like

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Speaker 3: they're pretty moral. I don't know much about Salvation Army,

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Speaker 3: but they see that pretty bad. Actually, yeah, there we go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they hate gay people and they used to hate

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Speaker 1: the IWW.

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Speaker 3: But anyway, you know, but in terms of like, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm not just like it's all it's on a sliding scale.

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Speaker 1: Army literally yeah, no, totally yeah, yeah yeah, whitepg WIPEPGA

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Speaker 1: from northern Asyria and like that's they're all right.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: So in the year two thousand, the wall started getting built,

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Speaker 1: the apartheid one. In July two thousand and three, the

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Speaker 1: first continuous segment of it was finished. And well, you

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Speaker 1: you've kind of spoiled this. But yeah, when I imagine building

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Speaker 1: a fence between me and my neighbor, I would think

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Speaker 1: you would put it on the property line, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Israel is not very good surveying. It's just not their

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Speaker 1: strong suit now as a nation. And because they put

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Speaker 1: fifteen percent of it on the border the you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean obviously the border sort of a all borders

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Speaker 1: are made up. This is an especially made up border,

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Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, but they managed but fifteen percent of it.

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Speaker 2: On their own.

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Speaker 1: We took way too much of your land already, eighty

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Speaker 1: five percent of it is withinside Palestinian territory, as much

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Speaker 1: as eleven miles inside Palestinian territory. Yeah, twenty five thousand

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Speaker 1: Palestinians were immediately cut off from the rest of you know, Palestine. Yeah, fortunately,

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Speaker 1: no go ahead and no, it's something they do.

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Speaker 2: I mean it is. It is.

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Speaker 3: Every time you hear about a security fence being put up,

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Speaker 3: you usually hear about it as like, well, you know,

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Speaker 3: they'll say, for example, you know, in this current conflict,

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Speaker 3: a line of Israeli has bar that's been touted is

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Speaker 3: there is a very clear and distinct border between Israel

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Speaker 3: and Gaza. And it's never it's never clear, it's never distinct,

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Speaker 3: it's always changing. It is always being push push, push,

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Speaker 3: push push. If you read ahead to Mimi's book that

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Speaker 3: she did with Dina, I think they call me Lioness.

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Speaker 3: I forget, I forget the name of the book, but

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Speaker 3: she talks about this extensively, about the amount of protests

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Speaker 3: that they would do when they were younger, every time

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Speaker 3: they would put up a security fence or anything around

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Speaker 3: a settlement. You hear this all the time with the settlements,

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Speaker 3: you know, constantly taking more and more and more land

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Speaker 3: and building any kind of barrier that would just suck

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Speaker 3: up more and more of land that is supposed to

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Speaker 3: be within the boundaries of Israel.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it's what they do.

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Speaker 1: It's like, it reminds me a little bit of how

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Speaker 1: when Russia invaded Ukraine, they were like, oh, well, we

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Speaker 1: need a buffer zone between US and NATO, you know,

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Speaker 1: And you're like, no, the border that you're allowed to

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Speaker 1: have is the border between your nation and the rest

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Speaker 1: of the world, right, Like, and I don't feel great

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Speaker 1: about that. I'm not a big borders person.

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Speaker 2: No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but like the one that overall.

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Speaker 1: You could be like, you can have your border, you

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Speaker 1: can't be like I don't like the way that my

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Speaker 1: neighbor is, so I need more of a buffer zone.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to put my fence through her kitchen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it is not normal or good. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But fortunately, Matt, you'll be really excited to know that

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Speaker 1: this all got solved because the International Court of Justice

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Speaker 1: was like, hey, so that's in violation of international law.

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Speaker 1: And then the UN General Assembly demanded the removal of

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Speaker 1: this fence by a vote of one hundred and forty

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Speaker 1: four to four. So Israel was like, I genuinely don't

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Speaker 1: understand why you think we would care what you have to.

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Speaker 3: Say, right, They're like seriously, still, yeah, how many times

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Speaker 3: are you guys going to write these pieces of paper

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Speaker 3: and us burn it in front of you before you

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Speaker 3: stop wasting paper.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like they do not.

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Speaker 3: Care about the UN or you know, any internationally recognize

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Speaker 3: this group of you know, human rights organizations or anything

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Speaker 3: like if you go against Israel, then you were officially

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Speaker 3: anti Semitic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, So this largely non violent or like non lethal

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Speaker 1: movement cropped up to fight this wall, and it was

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Speaker 1: pushed for by all these popular assemblies. One village in

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Speaker 1: the West Bank, Masha, had one of these protest movements

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Speaker 1: when Israel tried to steal the prop they were going

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Speaker 1: to build an elementary school the people who lived in

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Speaker 1: this village, and then Israel is like, Eh, that's where

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Speaker 1: we're gonna We're taking that where ushere, We're gonna put

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Speaker 1: our fence. We're just going to put it three year

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Speaker 1: elementary school. So people from the village put up a

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Speaker 1: protest camp on the property and the name of the

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Speaker 1: camp translates to alternative protest camp and Palestinian, Israeli and

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Speaker 1: international activists moved into the camp and for four months

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Speaker 1: they held back the wall starting in late two thousand

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Speaker 1: and three, and they would stage direct action after direct

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Speaker 1: action against the apartment. Israel had a small but very

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Speaker 1: active anarchist scene which I think grew out of punk

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Speaker 1: rock in the hardcore scene. Though most of the Israeli

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Speaker 1: anarchists I met around that time were like far more

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Speaker 1: committed to liberation politics than they were to music. One

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Speaker 1: of them got me into power metal. So shout out

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Speaker 1: to Yoni. If you're listening, shout out, and also shout

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Speaker 1: out to can we be sponsored by power metal?

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Speaker 2: Okay? Cool?

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Speaker 1: So shout out to people singing like this is with

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Speaker 1: lots of guitars and it sounds like the least metal

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Speaker 1: thing you've ever heard. And yet if you dig deep

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Speaker 1: enough into the cringe, you realize that only the cringe

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Speaker 1: are free.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to get that tattooed.

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Speaker 3: Only the cringe are free.

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Speaker 2: Fuck yeah, hell yeah.

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Speaker 1: Here's some ads.

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Speaker 2: And we're back, We're back.

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Speaker 1: So a bunch of these anarchists from Israel they go

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Speaker 1: to join the protest camp. They change, they changed their

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Speaker 1: name of their group at every different action they go

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Speaker 1: to the camp, and then they go out and do

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Speaker 1: these actions, and every single time they're like, oh, we're this, ah,

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Speaker 1: we're that. And one day on December and December two

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Speaker 1: thousand and three, they were calling themselves anarchists against the Wall,

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Speaker 1: and they went out on an action as they usually did.

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Speaker 1: It was a big march of everyone all together, about

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Speaker 1: one hundred Palestinians and one hundred other folks. The Israelis

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Speaker 1: and the internationals went to the wall while Palestinians hung

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Speaker 1: back because every time the Palestinians went too close, the

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Speaker 1: Israelis soldiers would shoot live ammunition. Folks approached the wall

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Speaker 1: to tear it up, and they chanted in Hebrew, refuse, refuse.

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Speaker 1: An Israeli soldier took careful aim, asked over coms for

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Speaker 1: permission to shoot, and then shot an Israeli activist, Gil

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Speaker 1: Na Amadi in both of his legs with live ammunition

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Speaker 1: at point blankage. And Gil, yeah, he had just left

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Speaker 1: the idef himself, like a month earlier. He had finished

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00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 1: his service and got now because for anyone who's listening

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00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 1: to ideas compulsory, you have to join the army if

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Speaker 1: you live in Israel, although many people found ways to not.

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Speaker 2: Do that, right.

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Speaker 1: And so Gil had just this was his first protest.

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Speaker 1: He had hung at the back of the demonstration for

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Speaker 1: most of the time because he didn't know too many people,

402
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 1: and they like were like, this is the leader and

403
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Speaker 1: his guess is that he's tall.

404
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Speaker 2: Like, I mean, I get it. Yeah.

405
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Speaker 3: Sometimes people think I'm a leader because I'm tall, but

406
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 3: I'm like, no, I'm not a follower to bro. But

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Speaker 3: I mean I'll stand if you want to find me

408
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 3: in this like a costco, then I'll stand at the front.

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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Good.

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Speaker 1: After he was shot, protesters demanded the soldiers call an ambulance,

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Speaker 1: and the soldiers did no such thing. Instead, they responded basically,

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00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 1: go ask help from your beloved Arabs. As he's bleeding.

414
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 1: They shot him in the artery, which is a really

415
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 1: bad place to get shot. Whenever in like movies or

416
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 1: books or or like bad self defense training, they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to kill them, I'm just gonna shoot.

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Speaker 2: Him in the leg.

419
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, as like one of the easiest ways to kill

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Speaker 1: someone with a gun.

421
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, there's this thing called the femoral artery.

422
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 3: It's big and it is pretty brittle compared to a bullet.

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Speaker 1: I remember I once asked one of my friends as

424
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Speaker 1: a doctor, I was writing this book called the Country

425
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: It Ghost, and I was like, I need my character

426
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 1: to get shot, but not like lethally, where's a safe

427
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 1: place to get shot, and my friend's like no, Like

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Speaker 1: I was like, what about the shoulder, and that it's

429
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 1: a terrible place to be shot. There's so many like.

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Speaker 3: According to HBO's The Sopranos, the fatty part of like

431
00:23:54,400 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 3: the buttocks and thigh. Okay with a small caliber caliber weapon. Okay,

432
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 3: you know that's pretty good. There's a whole you know

433
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 3: b story episode in which Bobby Baclaw wants to make

434
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 3: a little extra money, so he he convinces a rapper

435
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:17,159
Speaker 3: to let him shoot him so he can better album sales,

436
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 3: and he shoots him in the butt, which is not

437
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 3: necessarily going to get you the gangster title that you want.

438
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's a great show.

439
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if people want to hear more, they can listen.

440
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,919
Speaker 2: If you want to hear more, body, I'm sorry.

441
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 1: No, no, it's all right. So so he gets shot

442
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 1: in both legs.

443
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 2: It is not good.

444
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: He survives. To spoil that or to get rid of

445
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 1: the fear, yeah, activists carry him and an American woman

446
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: who is also shot but less seriously injured, carried them

447
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: off while others stayed and tore apart the apartheid fence.

448
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 1: Despite the fact that they were literally being shot at

449
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: with live I.

450
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 2: Mean, bad fucking ass, Yeah, bad ass.

451
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: And this particular fence separated Palestinian farmers from literally their

452
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: own lands, which is very often the case. And so

453
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 1: Giel was cared for at a Palestinian clinic with no

454
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 1: supplies because his beloved Arabs took care of him like

455
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 1: they did do that, you know, yeah, yeah, and they

456
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: saved his life because getting hit in the artery is

457
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: not a nice thing to do. The last interview that

458
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: I found with him was eight years later, so this

459
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 1: is twelve years ago, but he was fairly sure he

460
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 1: would never walk again.

461
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 2: In that interview.

462
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 1: He became a video game designer and slowly became more

463
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 1: radical because he wasn't a radical. He just didn't want

464
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: to have an apartheid state that he participated in.

465
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, that's yeah, that is really an important

466
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 3: distinction here. You know, what you might consider radical if

467
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 3: you're just a casual observer of this conflict, you know,

468
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 3: is the reason the only reason you think it's radical

469
00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 3: is because you think it's more complicated than it being apartheid,

470
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 3: and it's not. So, you know, it should not be

471
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 3: a radical position, yeah, to be against apartheid but you know, so,

472
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 3: just so what it is, go ahead?

473
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 1: No, no, no, So I read an interview with him.

474
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: I read this long interview with him. It's like interwoven

475
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: with a history of video games, because it's really interesting. Actually,

476
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: and my second like aha moment of the research. The

477
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: first one was the Camp David thing, where I was like, oh,

478
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: they were offered a second they were offered a state,

479
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: but it wasn't a state. They were offered a really

480
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: fucking shit deal, you know, right, And this other aha moment,

481
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 1: and it's a little bit. This one's more subjective. He's

482
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: talking about how at his key Boots several years later,

483
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: a drunk neighbor was talking to him and I'm going

484
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: to quote Giel and then he the neighbor spoke about

485
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 1: the Arab about how they would never forgive quote us Jews.

486
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: Something deep inside of him came gushing out. He was

487
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: saying it was something everyone knew but nobody ever spoke

488
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: about out they will never forgive us, they will never

489
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 1: forgive us. And so there's this idea in there. Basically,

490
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: the implication is that some Israelis just feel like they're

491
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 1: in too deep that they're like, yeah, they've been too

492
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 1: fucked up, so they've got to keep going because they'll

493
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: never be forgiven for what they've done.

494
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 2: One and you know, it's like, uh, I do feel for.

495
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 3: You know, as fucked up as it might sound like,

496
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 3: you know, I do, I do feel for uh Israelis.

497
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 3: I mean it shouldn't sound fucked up to these are

498
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 3: citizens of a country. It's not fucked up to feel

499
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 3: for people no matter where they're from. Yeah, but it's

500
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 3: like I feel for them because of the impossible situation

501
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 3: that their government and their policies have put them in.

502
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 3: And it's not as simple as like, well, you know,

503
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 3: if they're a so called democracy, whytn't they just vote

504
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 3: for It's just it's not as simple as as we

505
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 3: know in America. You know, as much of as many

506
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 3: of us are liberal so to speak, or left or whatnot,

507
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 3: that does not mean we are the majority and can

508
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 3: control policy. And even when we think we can, we can't.

509
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 3: And so, like, you know, I it is this awful

510
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 3: impossible position that gets more and more impossible by the hour,

511
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 3: by the minute, by the second. And it is you know,

512
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 3: it's it's an understandable thing, but it's also at the

513
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 3: same time you know it's also I don't think.

514
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: It's true, right exactly.

515
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think it's true at all because you

516
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 3: look at apartheid South Africa and you look at what

517
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 3: that compromise and apartheid ended up being, and it wasn't

518
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say I would call it the ideal compromise.

519
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 3: It was not entirely just it left South African you know,

520
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 3: Afrikaans people's economic privileges intact and whatnot. But there was

521
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,719
Speaker 3: no mass white genocide. There was no you know, a

522
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 3: mass uprising that murdered and displaced all of the Afrikaners.

523
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 3: It is not true that people don't have it in

524
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 3: their hearts to forgive and don't have it in their

525
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 3: hearts to move on, because peace and normalcy is what

526
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 3: human beings crave above all.

527
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that Gil's position is so a

528
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: case is so obvious for this because here is the

529
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: group he was just part of. He was just part

530
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: of the IDF a month earlier. Ghost was first protest.

531
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: He does not know the Palestinian villagers. He goes with

532
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: them on a march. He's shot in both legs. The

533
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: group he was just with, says bleed out we don't care.

534
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: Go ask help from your beloved Arabs. And then the

535
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: Palestinians were like, yeah, okay.

536
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, like yeah, I mean you talk about people not

537
00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 3: forgiving you, It's like, yeah, there's always going to be

538
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 3: those Israeli idea of soldiers aren't going to forgive you.

539
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 3: You know, there's people who out there who will hold

540
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 3: on to grudges no matter what. But it is not,

541
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 3: it is not it should not be an impediment to

542
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 3: just because you can't imagine the future.

543
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 2: That is a human limitation.

544
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: Totally.

545
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 3: I think you have to remember that, you know, God,

546
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 3: for lack of a better word, is in the collective,

547
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 3: not the individual. And I think that a collective of

548
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 3: people just you know, have the ability to do good

549
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 3: as well as evil.

550
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, totally. And so this, the shooting of

551
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: an Israeli activist, was a really big deal in israelm

552
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: Anarchists Against the Wall decided that that was the name

553
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: that they were going to stick with for their group

554
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: because it was the one that they were using that day,

555
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: and it was the one that the media was running

556
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: with because of all the press. Right, yeah, you know,

557
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: this activist with Anarchists against the Wall who had just

558
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 1: own up once, you know.

559
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,719
Speaker 3: But yeah, once you get the branding, you know, like

560
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 3: out there, it's kind of hard to pull back. Yeah,

561
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 3: that's why it's called pod Yourself a gun.

562
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 2: You know.

563
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 3: We tried to have a new feed with pot Yourself

564
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 3: the Wire, but people already know the other one, So

565
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 3: what can we do? Anyways, go on, I am not

566
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 3: this much of a shell usually. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

567
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 2: It's fine.

568
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: And so they put out their own press release that

569
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: day before they knew how badly Geel had been wounded.

570
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: And it starts, no to the ghetto that's being built

571
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: by Jews, No to the walls between people, stop the

572
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: occupation Israeli's Palestinians and international activists, bring down the apartheid

573
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: wall in Masha. And there's another banger line from one

574
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: of their communicators a little later, And this is what

575
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: podcasting has done with me. Banger was not in my

576
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: slang vocabulary until I started hanging out with cools on

577
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: media people. Yeah yeah, next, I'll be still say based.

578
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: At some point I think.

579
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 2: Y yeah, it's gonna happen.

580
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 4: Shelby says, no, no, base, Yeah, you don't fall for it.

581
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: This is a banger line. Though I think we can agree, okay,

582
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: since we can remember, we have been brainwashed with hatred

583
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: and fear of our Palestinian neighbors. We have not gone

584
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: for trips in the countryside without armed escort. We were

585
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: told that our hand is extended for peace, but that

586
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: there is no one to talk to. But these lies

587
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: were exposed and are visible to everyone who participates in

588
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: the actions against the occupation. We have slept together beneath

589
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: the olive trees before they were uprooted. We have marched

590
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: together to the fence, and we will continue to struggle

591
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: together Israeli's Palestinians and internationals for justice and equality for all.

592
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 2: Oh based, Yeah.

593
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: See, okay, well you can. Sorry, No, you're probably younger.

594
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: Than me, so I don't think so.

595
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 3: I did put a filter on the zoom though, I

596
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 3: just look at No, that's fantastic, that's good shit, man,

597
00:32:59,000 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 3: fucking banker.

598
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: The camp blasted for four months, and through it the

599
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: Israeli group Anarchists Against the Wall was able to start

600
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: forming long term partnerships with the Popular Committees and various

601
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: West Bank villages where there were near daily nonviolent uprisings.

602
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: And there's like a dozen of these towns. The Israeli

603
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: government had two sets of rules of engagement, one for

604
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: when it was just Palestinians, which was basically, do some murder,

605
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: and then one for when there were internationals or Israelis,

606
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: only do a little murder. A typical Friday demonstration went

607
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: like this. People would rally in a village, gather for prayer,

608
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: and then they would march out to the apartheid fence

609
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: or to land stolen by settlers. Sometimes the soldiers would

610
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: shut it down in the village before they had a

611
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: chance to march. Other times people would reach the fence

612
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: and start chanting before the soldiers came in with tear

613
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: gas concussion grenades. And let's talk about rubber bullets for

614
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: a minute.

615
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 3: Oh, let's put some big air quotes on rubber.

616
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: And almost everywhere in the world rubber b bullets is

617
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: actually used to mean something that might be more properly

618
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: called baton rounds, like when it's used in America by police.

619
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: You're talking about something called baton rounds, which are plastic

620
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 1: or rubber or sometimes wooden projectiles fired from various guns.

621
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 1: These suck, they hurt people, they occasionally kill people, and

622
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: they're bad news. Right, there's only two places in the world.

623
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: In my research I did for some weird reason in

624
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:26,879
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, I did this whole big research project about

625
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: less lethals that police use I'm not and rubber bullets

626
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: has meant in two places in the world that I

627
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,240
Speaker 1: was able to find literally metal bullets covered in rubber

628
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: to be like really vaguely less murderous. Yeah, you want

629
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 1: to guess those two places?

630
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 2: Ooh, I'm going to guess.

631
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 3: Uh Israel.

632
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one of them.

633
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 3: That's not a guess. So it was something I know.

634
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 3: And the other one apartheid South Africa.

635
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: No, although it's still Britain's fault.

636
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 2: Oh, Britain's fault.

637
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: Oh, India, Northern Ireland, Ireland. Yes, that's that's I believe

638
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: where the rubber bullet was developed and eventually they were like,

639
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,280
Speaker 1: we gotta stop shooting them. This just keeps murdering people.

640
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: It's just a bullet. It just kills people.

641
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's literally just a bullet with a like a

642
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 3: you know, wrapped in a flower tortilla. It's not at

643
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 3: all going to stop. It doesn't stop doing bullet stuff. Yeah. Well, also,

644
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 3: it is not not a baton round.

645
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 1: I read and I only read this in one source,

646
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 1: but I read that one of the reasons that the

647
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: British didn't stop using them as much in Northern Ireland

648
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: is that they would bounce right soldiers.

649
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right, which, you know, that is one

650
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 3: of them.

651
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 2: I'm at things, you.

652
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: Know, but in the you know, in the desert, there's

653
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: like fewer things to you know, to Northern Ireland or anyway.

654
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's let's bouncy. Yeah.

655
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 1: So the protests would disperse at this point, and then

656
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 1: the youth would start throwing stones at the motherfuckers who

657
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 1: were shooting them.

658
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

659
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,879
Speaker 1: Anarchists against the Wall did more than march alongside the Palestinians.

660
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: They also planted trees, They rebuilt homes and wells. They

661
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 1: walked alongside farmers, facing violence from settlers. All the while.

662
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: They would get attacked by settlers and soldiers for doing this.

663
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: And they're not the only group doing this. The other

664
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 1: groups that I mentioned earlier are also doing this, but

665
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: you know, they're the one who I read the book

666
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 1: about inside Israel proper. They did theatrical protests, like at

667
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 1: one point they set up a fake checkpoint and Tel

668
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 1: Aviv with like barbed wire and shit, like to just

669
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 1: control everyone as they came through.

670
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 2: Yeah.

671
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 1: Another time they climbed onto tanks heading into the West

672
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: Bank to be like fuck, you can't drive to the

673
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: West Bank. Yeah, and there's sort of a non group.

674
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 1: They're as much a slogan or an identity as they

675
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: were an organization. They had no platform, no manifesto, but

676
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,879
Speaker 1: they were all Israeli anti Zionists. The introduction to one

677
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 1: of their zines from two thousand and seven reads Anarchists

678
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 1: Against the Wall sweats off the excess weight of thick,

679
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 1: heavy ideological frames by making practice its center of gravity.

680
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: This is not to imply that principal theoretical analyzes are

681
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 1: not needed. Of course, we certainly encourage applying them to

682
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: deconstruct the Zionist apartheid myths. However, at this time, the

683
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: individuals comprising Anarchists Against the Wall would rather apply tugging ropes,

684
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: bolt cutters, and ten pound hammers to deconstruct Israel's wall

685
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: and express their disagreement with IDF roadblocks. It's basically they

686
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 1: were like all doing no talking, you know.

687
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, love it, love it, like listen, feel free to

688
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 3: read in a cafe. We love it, we love it.

689
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 3: It's nice to have a framework. Dogma can be important.

690
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 3: Learning theory is always cool to talk about. Some times

691
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 3: it gets you laid. We're just gonna do stuff, yeah

692
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 3: and lay I'll talk yeah, yeah, and all along.

693
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: They're very clear and everything that they did right that

694
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: they're not the leaders of the movements, nor are they

695
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: outside agitators, but they are people born into the occupying

696
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: force and solidarity with the occupied people.

697
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 3: Oh beautiful, yeah, beautiful, beautiful. That's the shit. That's the

698
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 3: shit that makes me feel good inside.

699
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: I know.

700
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: There's a village called Billin. It's a tiny town under

701
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: Israeli occupation since nineteen sixty seven. It's two miles east

702
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 1: of the Green line, which is the demarcation of what's

703
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 1: ostensibly Palestinian again depending on what who's claiming what at

704
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: what point right right right. The border wall cut it

705
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 1: off from sixty percent of its own farmland. Weekly protests

706
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: were led by the Billin's Popular Committee and an Israeli

707
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: human rights lawyer working alongside of them managed to get

708
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 1: the border moved slightly. And they're constantly fight settlements. But

709
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: they it's like there are these little winds. You know,

710
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: there are these like, hey, this town gets to keep having,

711
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 1: keeps getting to feed itself. It's like little winds in

712
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: the larger picture, but it's a pretty major wind to

713
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 1: be like, hey, like I have food, right.

714
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 3: Yes, no, it is it is, uh, I mean just

715
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 3: it's a good example of how dire shit is if

716
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 3: that is a win, and it is a fucking win,

717
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 3: huge one.

718
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: And at least three Palestinian protesters died for that win

719
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: at these non violent protests. One man, Bessima Rama, was

720
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: twenty nine when he was struck in the chest with

721
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: a tear gas canister and his heart stopped. And then

722
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 1: later a different protest, his sister Jahawar Abu Rahma died

723
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,439
Speaker 1: from tear gas inhalation. And that one is like, there's

724
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: like all of these like nah ah, that's not what

725
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: killed her. Things going on that Israel is saying.

726
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 3: But they say that every every time, every time someone

727
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 3: die by something that they claim is supposed to be

728
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 3: non lethal, like a bulldozer, they say, no, that's not

729
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,439
Speaker 3: what happened. Actually it was hamas fire to rocket into

730
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 3: their own right people.

731
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: You know, totally, you know, totally, the playbook is the

732
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: same as it has always been.

733
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 3: The playbook is literally the same it is. It is

734
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 3: lie lie Lie, Lie Lie. Wait wait wait wait wait.

735
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 3: Maybe tell the truth at some point at a later

736
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 3: date when people don't care.

737
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 1: And then if so, be like yeah, well we meant

738
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: to because fuck.

739
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 3: Them, yeah yeah yeah, or okay, we did it, but

740
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 3: it was an accident and therefore we are not found liable.

741
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

742
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: So, in two thousand and eight, the Bilin Popular Committee

743
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 1: Against the Wall, the group that had organized these protests,

744
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: and Anarchists against the Wall, were jointly because they work

745
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: together to organize these things, were jointly awarded the Carl

746
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: von Aussievski Medal, given annually by the International League of

747
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: Human Rights in Berlin, and it's named after a German

748
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: Nobel Prize winning Passifift who died in Gestapo custody in

749
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty eight by Friend of the Pod tuberculosis. You

750
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: all thought I wasn't going to work in tuberculosis this episode,

751
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:09,399
Speaker 1: but this motherfucker died of it.

752
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 2: Friend of the pod.

753
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 3: Oh that's my favorite Friend of the pod is tuberculosis.

754
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: Well, we have another friend of the pod, and it's

755
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: uh the fact that, yeah, that we have to sell

756
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: ads so that I can feed my dog and spend

757
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: all of my time reading history books so that I

758
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 1: can tell you all of these things.

759
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 3: Hell yeah, I love I love capitalism because it keeps

760
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 3: me safe looking or something.

761
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 1: It's currently the system that feeds me.

762
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 3: If I say nice things about capitalism on a podcast,

763
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 3: will someone just send me money.

764
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 2: Because I would be sick.

765
00:41:47,360 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, we'll find out. Yeah, here's our ad money.

766
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,080
Speaker 2: And we're back. Hey.

767
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: So, when they went to Berlin to accept the award,

768
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 1: the anarchists gave a funny speech about like kind of

769
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: like it was kind of weird for us, as the

770
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 1: Israeli anarchists to accept this, but at the end of

771
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: the day, support for Palestinian struggle is more important. To

772
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,800
Speaker 1: put it in their own words, our primary moral duty

773
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,879
Speaker 1: is not to maintain ideological purity, but rather to stand

774
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 1: with Palestinians and their resistance to oppression. And they also said,

775
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: this is where I got the thing earlier that I

776
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 1: said from this quote. We would like to stress that

777
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: we are not equal partners, but rather occupiers who joined

778
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: the occupied.

779
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 2: In their.

780
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, thank you. Yeah, these you know what this

781
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 3: is an aptly named podcast.

782
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 2: Those are cool people. Yeah, and they're doing cool things.

783
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I yeah, I'm excited that I figured out.

784
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: I've known about them for a while because I am

785
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: when I lived in Amsterdam years ago, like kind of

786
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: during a lot of the height of this, and I

787
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 1: had a lot of Israeli friends who live there, partly

788
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: because a lot of Israeli's left the country because the

789
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: other option was go serve or go.

790
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: To that's right, yeahm hmm, yeah. Yeah.

791
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: In January two thousand and eight, folks in Tel Aviv

792
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: and Israeli City held a critical mass protest against the occupation.

793
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: You ever heard a critical mass. It's this old style

794
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: of protest.

795
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 3: No, I know of this thing where people go on bike.

796
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 3: That's yeah, oh okay, yeah.

797
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's the thing. It's like it's like it's

798
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: it's just a.

799
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 2: That was just a bike ride. Yeah.

800
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: Well, it's like it started off as this movement. We'll

801
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: probably do an episode about some time. Probably start off

802
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: as this movement to like reclaim cities from cars, you know,

803
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: and like a bike rights thing. But then more and

804
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 1: more during the ultra globalization movement, they started getting used

805
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: to like be a way to hold a demonstration was

806
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: to go be on bicycles cool and so Anarchist Against

807
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: the Wall held a critical mass protest against the occupation

808
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: January two thousand and eight, and this one as small

809
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,359
Speaker 1: as hell. It was like thirty people. There's not really

810
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: anything illegal about it. You're just literally vehicles that are

811
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 1: allowed in the street and you're riding in the street.

812
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 1: One protester, Jonathan Pollock, was arrested. This was politically motivated.

813
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: He was a founding member of Anarchists Against the Wall

814
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: and he's an interesting guy. He was in the hardcore

815
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,839
Speaker 1: scene in the nineties and he founded a vegan anti

816
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: Zionist group called One Struggle, this very nineties hardcore thing

817
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 1: to do. Yeah, his case of riding a bicycle in

818
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: the street went a trial in twenty ten, and he

819
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: gave this awesome speech where he got three months for

820
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: organizing the protest, which he claims he didn't do. And

821
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: his speech is basically like, well, I should have I

822
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: should have organized a protest, but I just happened to not.

823
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 1: I'm not sorry, Like, yeah, no, the protest is sick.

824
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, kind of sucks getting in trouble for it because

825
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,959
Speaker 3: I'm not I didn't do it, but fuck I wish

826
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 3: I did it, Yeah.

827
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: Exactly, Yeah, which is what I've always held. Yeah, you know,

828
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 1: if I ever, like, I have a friend who once

829
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: got arrested for got convicted for doing like all of

830
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: the damage at a protest, like all of the windows

831
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: that got broken. They were like, you did all of it.

832
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: She is not physically possible, but he did that.

833
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 3: I mean, unless you're the Hulk or like the kool

834
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 3: Aid Man, that guy can do whatever you want.

835
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:34,359
Speaker 2: That's true.

836
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: That's a good point.

837
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

838
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 1: And so unless my friend has this secret capacity that

839
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 1: I'm not personally aware of. And I was always trying

840
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: to tell him. I was like, you should say you

841
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: did it.

842
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 3: You did the time, like, yeah, you might as well

843
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 3: at this point, Yeah, you might as well just do it.

844
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, or just start saying you did it. No one's

845
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 2: gonna question you.

846
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: Is it really stolen valor if you've gone to prison.

847
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 3: For it, that's one hundred percent true? Is that is

848
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 3: a one thousand percent er? Just say you did it.

849
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

850
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:07,479
Speaker 3: There's a thing called having too much honor, all right,

851
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 3: or being too honest.

852
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 2: Right, totally come on.

853
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 1: And so as soon as he got out, Jonathan returned

854
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: to protest work he sent several more months in prison

855
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty on charges of throwing stones at soldiers

856
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: in the West Bank, which he actually almost certainly did

857
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: not do. Most sources seem to admit that this was

858
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: a political arrest. He had been at demonstrations every week

859
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: for years and no one had ever seen him throwing stones,

860
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,800
Speaker 1: even though in April two thousand and five, the IDF

861
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: shot him in the head with a tear gas canister,

862
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 1: requiring stitches and hear me out, this is my favorite

863
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: Israeli claim IDF claim so far. The IDF was like, no,

864
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: we didn't.

865
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 2: Shoot you on the head. We don't.

866
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 1: We don't shoot people with tar guess cannisters. What happened

867
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: was we shot it into the air when it rick

868
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,800
Speaker 1: a shade off of a stone thrown by these evil terrorists.

869
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 2: M that's right.

870
00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 3: Once again, it's the magic stone theory of you know,

871
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 3: it's it's exactly you know, there was a guy on

872
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 3: the grassy knoll who threw a stone a child. Actuallyinians

873
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 3: killed JFK. Is that what you're saying. I'm saying the

874
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,720
Speaker 3: Palestinians killed JFK. Which is I think a Palestinian man

875
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,319
Speaker 3: is supposed to have killed RFK, but I don't know

876
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 3: if I don't not in connection to the conflict to

877
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:28,359
Speaker 3: just he yea related people are people? Oh yeah, yeah

878
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 3: yeah yeah yeah, different thing.

879
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. In twenty nineteen, this guy, Jonathan, he survived an

880
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: assassination attempt by knife wielding far right guys, and he

881
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 1: he regularly gets arrested for all this organizing, and he

882
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: always refuses to cooperate with his court cases because he've

883
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: viewsed them as illegitimate, and so this is part of

884
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 1: why he ends up getting prison time here and there

885
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:55,280
Speaker 1: for doing He's like, because he's not actually doing wildly

886
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: illegal stuff. He's an organizer and he's showing up in

887
00:47:57,680 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 1: solidarity with people.

888
00:47:58,800 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 2: You know.

889
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 1: Anyway, he's cool. Yeah, Well, I don't know him personally.

890
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: Maybe he's a terrible person. The stuff that I know

891
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: about him doing is yeah, so far, so good. Anyhow,

892
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 1: At the very end of two thousand and eight, Israel

893
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 1: launched a three week quote war war gets quotes in Gaza.

894
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: It gets called the Gaza War, although that name was

895
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 1: probably gonna anyway. It gets called Operation cast Lead, and

896
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 1: it gets called the Gaza Massacre.

897
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 2: More lots of different names.

898
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, more than a thousand Palestinians were killed, as well

899
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: as thirteen Israelis, four of whom were killed by friendly fire.

900
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: It was this horrible massacre that laid the groundwork for

901
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: the current batch of resistance in Gaza, because the people

902
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: who are twenty now were five when they survived this

903
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: horrible shit.

904
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

905
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 1: More than a thousand Israelis marched against the war in

906
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 1: Tel Aviv. And I want to quote from anarchist against

907
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 1: the Wall speech to just show how much things have

908
00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 1: changed in their intervening time.

909
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 2: Quote.

910
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 1: Today we are told that a ruthless attack on Gaza's

911
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:08,240
Speaker 1: populace is in fact a war on Hamas. Dropping bombs

912
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: in residential areas in the world's most densely populated region

913
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: is not a war crime, but instead an assault on

914
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 1: the infrastructure of terrorism. Shelling the University of Gaza's female

915
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: dorms is eliminating explosive labs and murdering hundreds of women

916
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: and children constitute just and moral combat.

917
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, evergreen, Yeah, evergreen. I mean it's just, you know,

918
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:36,320
Speaker 3: it is the same thing over and over again regarding

919
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 3: Gaza and the Israeli treatment of Gaza. And if you're

920
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 3: interested in learning what they call this type of security

921
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 3: without peace is one of the things they call it.

922
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 3: They also call these, you know, every two year operations

923
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 3: in Gaza, they call it mowing the grass. The idea,

924
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 3: the idea being, you know, you mow the grass that's

925
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:10,240
Speaker 3: killing a bunch of people, you know, supposedly terrorist quote unquote,

926
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 3: and then you wait a few years and then you know,

927
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 3: you got to mow the grass again. So if you

928
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 3: want to know the value of human life in Gaza,

929
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 3: just look no further than the phrase mowing the grass

930
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 3: or mowing the lawn.

931
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fucking it's fucking dark.

932
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 3: And it's not like, oh well that's something said by

933
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 3: like some far right No, that's what that is generally

934
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 3: what it's called. That is what they say in their

935
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 3: own media. It is I've heard it's a phrase I've

936
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 3: heard bandied about in our own media recently.

937
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 1: And you that's a bad thing to import.

938
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can't help but feel like, you know, I

939
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,280
Speaker 3: maybe call me naive, but I don't think the Overton

940
00:50:54,440 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 3: window has shifted enough to describe a massacre of civilians.

941
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 3: Is mowing the lawn and not have people be like

942
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 3: that sounds genocidal?

943
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:10,720
Speaker 2: Is shit, right, But you know, who knows. Maybe I'm naive,

944
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:11,439
Speaker 2: maybe people don't.

945
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, the main this is the first time

946
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: I've been paying some attention to this stuff since, you know,

947
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: since I was about nineteen or twenty or so, and

948
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: so however, many decades, two decades whatever. I think people

949
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 1: know who I am, and now everyone knows everything about me.

950
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: Born in Maryland, Yeah, roughly forty or forty one years old, right, raby,

951
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 1: I'm forty seven, who knows?

952
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:42,280
Speaker 3: Okay, anyway, so social Security number eight exactly.

953
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: But this is the first time that the the media

954
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: narrative didn't work. Yes, yes, and that is hopeful.

955
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 3: It is, and I think it's because this is my

956
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 3: general theory about it, is that the thing about manufacturing

957
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 3: consent is that it takes time and it takes effort.

958
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 3: And the thing about propaganda is that propaganda works better

959
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 3: in sort of a controlled media space. It also works

960
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 3: better once again spaced out. It used to be in

961
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 3: the past that a massacre would happen, or a Palasidian

962
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 3: civilian or a journalist would be murdered by Israeli forces,

963
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:31,839
Speaker 3: and they would say, no, they're lying, because they always lie,

964
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 3: you know, they would say, the Palestinians are lying, we

965
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 3: didn't do that, they did that to themselves or whatever,

966
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 3: and then weeks would go by, months would go by,

967
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 3: and eventually there might be some admission of guilt, like

968
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 3: you know, like has done so many times, We've heard

969
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 3: this a thousand times.

970
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 2: By the time they admit.

971
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 3: To anything or they circle back around to it, no

972
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:57,280
Speaker 3: one cares in this instance. So much propaganda is happening,

973
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 3: happening so fast, at such a high rate, at least

974
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 3: in the last you know, couple of months since the

975
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 3: seventh that there's no time for spin. There's it just

976
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 3: the spin looks manic and ridiculous. Like a hospital is

977
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 3: bombed in Gaza and they say, we didn't bomb the hospital.

978
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 3: We don't bomb hospitals. You know, they probably bomb their

979
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 3: own hospital. And then two days later they bomb a

980
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 3: hospital and they're like, okay, we do bomb hospitals, but

981
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 3: we have to bomb hospitals because they're not actually hospitals.

982
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 2: And it's like.

983
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 3: Any casual viewer of the news is not getting the

984
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:38,439
Speaker 3: sufficient time to be convinced of their line. Instead, they

985
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 3: just two days later do the thing they said they

986
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 3: never do, and so you go Oh they're liars, and

987
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,839
Speaker 3: I think that is, you know, I mean in a

988
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 3: horrifying way.

989
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 2: It is.

990
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 3: It's a hopeful development that they are. They seem to

991
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 3: have just in general gotten worse at Husbar Husbar being

992
00:53:56,239 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 3: an Israeli propaganda and that they are not that they

993
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 3: were ever good at it, if you cared about the

994
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 3: subject at all. But it's particularly bad now because they

995
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 3: just start living in such a bubble where they don't

996
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 3: all of their talking points, all of their kind of

997
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 3: like liberal pink washing is dated for this younger generation.

998
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 3: It feels phony, like we know what pink washing looks like,

999
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 3: not you know, through Israel so much as we know

1000
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:32,320
Speaker 3: it through corporations who City Bank having a Pride float,

1001
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 3: you know, and we know like, oh people just say

1002
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 3: this in order to sell us stuff. So now people

1003
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 3: are seeing Israel doing that and they're going like, oh,

1004
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 3: I know this, Yeah, this is fucking the MetLife you know,

1005
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:50,839
Speaker 3: fucking float over at the Pride parade. This is this

1006
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 3: is you're trying to sell me life insurance? Is bullshit?

1007
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:56,879
Speaker 3: Yeah no, that makes sense to me. I'm just glad

1008
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 3: people aren't buying it as much as they used to,

1009
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:04,320
Speaker 3: and that it's it's like nice and not be alone and.

1010
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 2: You know, God like it is.

1011
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:13,439
Speaker 3: If there's one thing that has made me a little

1012
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 3: bit less insane, it's been seeing other people, you know,

1013
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 3: being able to be like you see this.

1014
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:22,760
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah?

1015
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this this feels like super fake, like more

1016
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 3: fake than usual.

1017
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1018
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 3: If I ever had time in my life, I would

1019
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:37,399
Speaker 3: start a podcast purely about Hasbara. It would just be

1020
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 3: the you know, the weekly because it's all so it's

1021
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:47,920
Speaker 3: all so egregious and insane that you know that I

1022
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 3: think from an American perspective or you know, we would

1023
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 3: be able to look at it and just just to

1024
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 3: dig into it for you know, I don't know, to

1025
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 3: see what is actually happening. Yeah, but you know I

1026
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 3: got I got TV shows to it. One Now I

1027
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,439
Speaker 3: understand this well, I mean I don't know. There's always

1028
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 3: more projects to do.

1029
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:07,320
Speaker 2: There's always more projects.

1030
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 1: So speaking of more projects, there's a whole bunch of

1031
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 1: other projects in Israel that are part of resisting occupation

1032
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 1: and they ranged the Gamut. One of them, Yeshkovl, was

1033
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 1: found in nineteen eighty one and it is a movement

1034
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 1: of IDF soldiers who refused to serve in the occupied territories.

1035
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 1: And I know I was talking earlier about how like

1036
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:30,919
Speaker 1: Israeli friends who were all, you know, getting away from

1037
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:34,840
Speaker 1: the draft or whatever. And of like four Israelis I

1038
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 1: know who avoided serving in the IDF, two of them

1039
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 1: just left the country, or one person just never went

1040
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:46,319
Speaker 1: to Israel basically had joint citizenship. Another marched in and

1041
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: said fuck you, I won't do it, you know, and

1042
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: so they sent him jail for a while and then

1043
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 1: he came out and was like, yeah, well fuck you.

1044
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:54,879
Speaker 1: And then another one of my friends I probably said

1045
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 1: this before on the podcast, another one of my friends

1046
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:58,479
Speaker 1: who went in and was like, give me a gun.

1047
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 1: I don't know who I'm gonna shoot. I'm gonna shoot.

1048
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 2: Someone, damn.

1049
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 1: And they were like, nope, you don't get a gun.

1050
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:09,800
Speaker 3: Wow.

1051
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 2: I wonder if that would work.

1052
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 1: Now, I have no idea. I know, right, they'd be

1053
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:19,439
Speaker 1: like you're a guy.

1054
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1055
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 3: At this point, I think there's just so many reservists

1056
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 3: came up after the seventh to be like give me

1057
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 3: a gun.

1058
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 2: So who knows.

1059
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 1: But I know, I mean he was like I think

1060
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 1: he took it real far. He was like, I don't

1061
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 1: know who am I to shoot.

1062
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 2: Might be me, might be you. I don't know, you know,

1063
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 2: oh I love that, and.

1064
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 1: So okay, so you and so you have all this.

1065
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 1: You have this movement of people going back decades. The

1066
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: first people who refuse to serve go back at least

1067
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: as far as the fifties, and it it ebbs and flows,

1068
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 1: but it is uh flowing again. And then of course

1069
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 1: you have people like Giel who went and served and

1070
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 1: didn't like what they saw and didn't like what they

1071
00:57:56,040 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 1: were involved with, and then joined the other side immediately

1072
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 1: after leaving. And when I say the other side, of

1073
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 1: course whatever that told the whole story. I don't need

1074
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 1: to disclaim this. And then more recently I swear it

1075
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,439
Speaker 1: on to current events. In September twenty twenty three, two

1076
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 1: hundred and thirty conscientious objectors signed a letter called Youth

1077
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 1: Against Dictatorship, and they said, quote, we decided that we

1078
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 1: cannot in good faith serve a bunch of fascist settlers

1079
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 1: that are in control of the government right now. Reservists

1080
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 1: have signed onto this as well, because as you mentioned,

1081
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of reservists are signing up and

1082
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 1: going off and persecuting this war. But a lot of

1083
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:39,520
Speaker 1: reservists have signed onto this as well and refused to serve.

1084
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 1: And this is tied into the right wing is really

1085
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 1: extra coming to power in Israel this year and the

1086
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three Israeli judicial reform has centralized more power

1087
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 1: into the hands of legislature and away from the courts. Basically,

1088
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court used to be able to declare laws

1089
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 1: on constitutional.

1090
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 3: Right the way a checks and balance the system usually yeah,

1091
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 3: and they were like, what have instead of having checks

1092
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 3: and balances, we just the right wing people in charge.

1093
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 1: Israel's also increasing slowly the authority of the Rabbinical Court,

1094
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 1: saying that religious law can be used in civil matters.

1095
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:15,800
Speaker 1: And this isn't to say that the left is like

1096
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:20,000
Speaker 1: powerful in Israel. It really really isn't. But there is hope,

1097
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 1: and there is hope in a way that is interesting

1098
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 1: to me.

1099
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 2: And to.

1100
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 1: Close it to compare to when the left hope was

1101
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: not as hopeful. Twenty eleven, Yeah, Israel got a version

1102
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 1: of the Plaza occupation protests that swept around the globe.

1103
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:41,320
Speaker 1: Occupy and you know, all those kinds of things. Theirs

1104
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 1: was particularly lackluster and reformist, not just because Israel hadn't

1105
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 1: been a hit as hard during the financial crisis. But

1106
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 1: to quote author Uri Gordon quote, the fact that a

1107
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 1: movement mobilizing around social justice effectively ignored the social conditions

1108
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 1: of millions of Palestinians living under their own government's military occupation.

1109
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 1: This was an occupy movement that ignored the other real

1110
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 1: occupation taking place in its own backyard. And so anarchists

1111
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 1: against the Wall, they like, showed up. They're like, all right,

1112
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 1: well fucking we'll do this shit too, you know, and

1113
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 1: they set up their own tents and they were run

1114
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 1: out for bringing anti occupation politics into the occupy movement.

1115
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 1: So they moved over to the tense city of actual

1116
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 1: homeless people in African refugees, like right across on the

1117
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 1: other side of the street, basically because they've been in

1118
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 1: solidarity with those people for years and they were accepted

1119
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 1: and they're still around. So were the International Solidarity Movement,

1120
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 1: and more importantly so are Palestinian organizations of all types

1121
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:47,640
Speaker 1: and all levels. And thinking about any of these groups

1122
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:53,680
Speaker 1: of people as like Palestinis Hamas, israel Is the IDF

1123
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:59,400
Speaker 1: whatever or Israeli's is you know, is reduction.

1124
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 3: That will just fuck everything up, Yes, completely reductionists. Then

1125
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 3: also you know again gives too much of the gives

1126
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:14,960
Speaker 3: too much fuel for the right wing in Israel to

1127
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 3: use in order to I think rile up bring people

1128
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 3: to their cause of like you see this, you know,

1129
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 3: they hate us, they hate all of us, they want

1130
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:30,040
Speaker 3: to kill us if they ever had their way, Yeah,

1131
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 3: we'd be driven into this.

1132
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 1: The one state solution that they were fighting for was

1133
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:38,680
Speaker 1: a non right was actually a decent like non apartheid state.

1134
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 3: But yeah, right, right, and so yes, so it is

1135
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:48,120
Speaker 3: it is important to remember as much as the Israeli

1136
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 3: left has been diminished, and it has been, there's no

1137
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 3: getting around that. And as much as they, you know,

1138
01:01:56,320 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 3: as much as the Seventh has I think further ghettoized

1139
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 3: the left, it does exist. There is a history there,

1140
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:11,360
Speaker 3: and I do not think that it is I think

1141
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 3: the pendulum is a pendulum for a reason, and it's

1142
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 3: the idea that it's going to stay swinging right forever

1143
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:25,479
Speaker 3: is an illusion, and it is it is something that

1144
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:31,520
Speaker 3: I personally am seeing more and more people, especially now

1145
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 3: waking up and listening to, you know, Israeli leftist voices

1146
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 3: who are still out there. And I also want to say,

1147
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 3: it's also important to not dismiss and this is you know,

1148
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 3: for I suppose the more online left people, it is

1149
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 3: important to not dismiss any Israeli leftist voices because they

1150
01:02:55,200 --> 01:03:01,640
Speaker 3: might sound, you know, because they say something like Hamas

1151
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:06,560
Speaker 3: is bad, like the idea that you would like. You

1152
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 3: can't you can't hold people to an an unrealistic standard. Now, personally,

1153
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 3: I don't think it's at all unrealistic to be like

1154
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:22,600
Speaker 3: a right wing Islamist group is bad. Yes, the kidnapping

1155
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:25,640
Speaker 3: people is bad, Murdering civilians is bad. It's just like period.

1156
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1157
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 3: And uh, but like I do see people kind of

1158
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 3: go like, oh you know this, you know this, the

1159
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 3: Israeli left is dead. Look at this person you know

1160
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 3: talking about how bad Hamas is.

1161
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 2: And it's like, bro, slow your role here, slow your

1162
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 2: fucking role here.

1163
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 1: The you know, everyone talks to the audiences they know,

1164
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:49,360
Speaker 1: you know.

1165
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:52,880
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, everyone talks to the audience that they know

1166
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 3: and what they you know in Israel, Uh you know

1167
01:03:56,240 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 3: it is Hamas is uh uh you know, I mean

1168
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:03,920
Speaker 3: not even just outside of Israel. It is a terrorism bad.

1169
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 3: There are reasons for it. No one is disputing that.

1170
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 1: No one gets to kill civilians is a perfectly reasonable

1171
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:13,040
Speaker 1: line to hold people too, and then you have to

1172
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 1: hold all sides to it while still recognizing that one

1173
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:16,760
Speaker 1: side is more power than the.

1174
01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 3: Other right one hundred percent, and the power dynamics are

1175
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 3: what's important here, And that is a different argument than

1176
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:31,200
Speaker 3: saying something like hummus is good. So but again, this

1177
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 3: is not you know, I'm talking to fucking anonymous internet

1178
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 3: accounts now, which is never a good thing to do.

1179
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 3: But yes, the Israeli left, I think, you know, I

1180
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:44,760
Speaker 3: maybe this is naive. Maybe I just have hope, but

1181
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,960
Speaker 3: they will have their day, and I think more and

1182
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:53,920
Speaker 3: more there where they have always been the most useful

1183
01:04:54,400 --> 01:05:00,440
Speaker 3: is in showing the world that this is not about

1184
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:09,720
Speaker 3: ethnic hatred or religious hatred, that Israelis and Palestinians are

1185
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 3: neither are monoliths, and neither are they. They have been

1186
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 3: in this fight together and will continue to be in

1187
01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 3: this fight together, despite their small numbers, despite everything you see.

1188
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 2: And yeah, I don't know, I just have some hope. Yeah,

1189
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:27,840
Speaker 2: I have some hope.

1190
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 1: And I think that whatever hope we have is in

1191
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 1: solidarity with each other, with people who are fradualized in

1192
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 1: various ways. Working together across all kinds of cultural boundaries,

1193
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:40,320
Speaker 1: and yeah, it gives me hope.

1194
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 3: And remember, the left fails more than it succeeds, so

1195
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 3: being like, oh, the Israeli left failed is like, well, yeah,

1196
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:49,280
Speaker 3: the left. That's kind of what the left does is

1197
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 3: fail and fail and fail and fail and fail. But

1198
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:56,120
Speaker 3: when it succeeds, we also remember that. And it's a

1199
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:59,240
Speaker 3: it's a lot easier to build something new than it

1200
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 3: is to tear some down. So let's h extend a

1201
01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:05,520
Speaker 3: little bit of hope, a little bit of positivity, a

1202
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 3: little bit of grace.

1203
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 1: Well that's our non current events podcast about history, about

1204
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:18,440
Speaker 1: the past, and uh yeah you got you got any

1205
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 1: plugs for us here at the end.

1206
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:25,280
Speaker 3: Oh you know, uh, join me to talk about the

1207
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 3: Wire and the Sopranos, Pot yourself a gun, a TV

1208
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 3: rewatch podcast.

1209
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 2: We do it. It's great every week.

1210
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 3: And then also in between seasons, we have our our

1211
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 3: og show that me and my cost Vince Mancini, have

1212
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:43,680
Speaker 3: been doing together for over a decade, is called the

1213
01:06:43,720 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 3: Frontcast and that's at patreon dot com slash Frodcast. For

1214
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:52,240
Speaker 3: those of you who are like Matt, I love you dog,

1215
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:54,400
Speaker 3: but I will not watch a whole last TV show

1216
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:58,640
Speaker 3: to listen to you talk about it. Well, then listen

1217
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 3: to the frodcast patri dot com slash broadcast. You know

1218
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:04,479
Speaker 3: you can. You can join if you want, but also

1219
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:09,560
Speaker 3: I don't. I don't want to take your Your money

1220
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 3: is more probably more important to be spent at Cool

1221
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:16,800
Speaker 3: Zone because they do that actually matter.

1222
01:07:18,200 --> 01:07:22,800
Speaker 2: I have an impact and are helping to educate people.

1223
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:27,000
Speaker 3: Me and Vince mostly just talk about movies and like funny,

1224
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 3: funny shit we see on the Internet, and it all

1225
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:35,240
Speaker 3: matters sometimes and yeah, yeah, yeah, some of it more

1226
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 3: than others, so I gotta tell you yes. And then

1227
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:42,720
Speaker 3: I'm on Instagram at matt leeb jokes follow.

1228
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:46,280
Speaker 1: Me, hell yeam if you want to follow me, I'm

1229
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Margaret Kiljoy. I'm technically on Twitter. I'm

1230
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:53,080
Speaker 1: technically on lots of services that I don't actually check.

1231
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 1: I deleted Twitter off my phone is the best decision

1232
01:07:56,160 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 1: I've made for my mental health. But then it just

1233
01:07:57,960 --> 01:08:01,000
Speaker 1: means how you open it on my laptop and that doesn't.

1234
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 2: Fix anything yet.

1235
01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:05,960
Speaker 1: And also, if you want to hear me read you

1236
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 1: fiction every Sunday on this feed and on it could

1237
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:13,360
Speaker 1: happen here feed you can hear the cool Zone Media

1238
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:17,800
Speaker 1: book Club where I read you short stories. And some

1239
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 1: people use this to go to sleep too, which means

1240
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:24,559
Speaker 1: that one of my friends now whenever I talk to him,

1241
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:25,879
Speaker 1: he starts feeling sleepy.

1242
01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:28,719
Speaker 2: That rule.

1243
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:33,439
Speaker 1: So yep, that's it from us, and we'll see you

1244
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:35,400
Speaker 1: next week with more Cool People Did Cool Stuff.

1245
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:40,200
Speaker 2: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1246
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 2: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

1247
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:46,760
Speaker 2: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

1248
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:50,240
Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1249
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:51,080
Speaker 2: your podcasts.