WEBVTT - Brown Ambition Presents CNN’s Diversifying “Negotiating Your Way to Success” 0:00:01.280 --> 0:00:04.280 He hey via fam It's mandra here. I am so 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:08.039 excited to tell you about this special guest episode of 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:12.119 CNN's Diversifying and Diversifying if you have not heard, it 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:15.280 as a brand new personal finance podcast from CNN Audio 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:18.959 hosted by My Girl, Delian Barros, also known as the 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:21.840 money Coach. You may have seen her and if you haven't, 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:24.960 where have you been hiding under a rock? On TikTok 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:29.560 and Instagram, Delian shares amazing investing and fire tips so 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:32.840 that you can get off that hamster wheel and fulfill 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:36.000 your financial dreams. And I was honored to be a 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:40.199 guest on CNN's Diversifying with Delian earlier this year, so 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:42.839 today we are going to share that episode with you. 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:47.040 It is called Negotiating Your Way to Success. In this episode, 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:49.320 we talk about all of the ways that you can 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:52.640 actually negotiate for more at work, whether you're looking for 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:54.640 a new job or you're asking for a raise on 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:57.240 the job. Can't wait for you guys to hear the show, 0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.520 and if you haven't yet, please follow and subscribe to 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.120 diversity find This show explores how the traditional rules of 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:07.319 money management don't necessarily apply to new generations. And again 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.080 with Delian as the host. You cannot go wrong. Go 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:12.760 check out Diversifying. You can listen to it wherever you 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:13.640 get your podcasts. 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:18.440 A record number of Americans quit their jobs in the 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:22.120 last year, including me, in what's now being called the 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:25.840 Great Resignation. The pandemic has made a lot of people 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:29.160 realize that the demands of their job weren't lining up 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:33.520 with their salary expectations. Even before COVID, leaving a job 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:35.880 has been a great way to climb the career ladder 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:37.119 and increase your pay. 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.240 I'm an excellent quitter. Six times I quit, and I 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:42.560 never quit with nothing else lined up. 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:47.160 Mandy Woodrow Santo's is a career coach, former hiring manager, 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.760 and founder of the Mandy Money business and brand. She 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:54.240 also co hosts the podcast Brown Ambition, which focuses on 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:56.120 helping people of color build wealth. 0:01:56.680 --> 0:01:58.240 Of course, quitting. 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:00.360 Isn't the only way to get more money or benefits. 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:03.800 It's just one form of that scary but critical thing 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:05.200 called negotiating. 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:09.320 I have learned that taking charge of your career often 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:13.320 does mean walking away when opportunities are no longer giving 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:17.639 you the financial or career advance Men opportunities that they 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:19.000 may have when you first started. 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.120 I know not everyone can afford to quit their job 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:24.600 or walk away from a lackluster offer. 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:28.720 Don't worry, those aren't the only options. Today. 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.400 We're talking about how to get what you're worth at work, 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:34.480 from salaries to signing bonuses to titles. 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:37.919 I'm Delian Barrows. This is diversifying. 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:47.840 Mandy's career began in journalism at a small newspaper in Atlanta, Georgia. 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:50.720 She left that job after only two weeks for a 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:54.280 better offer, and since then has never missed an opportunity 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:56.960 to ask for more money with each jump of the 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:57.880 professional ladder. 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:01.840 Looking back over my career, I've went from earning thirty 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.880 thousand dollars to over three hundred thousand dollars in total 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:06.160 compensation in a decade. 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:08.840 That's incredible. I mean, can we just take a minute. 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:12.840 Thirty thousand to three hundred thousand dollars that is just 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:16.640 one of the most impressive salary negotiation stories I've ever heard. 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:19.440 The reasons I quit always had to do with a 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.280 couple of things. One, I wasn't getting the opportunities for 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:25.360 advancement in my current role, or two I wasn't being 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:27.919 paid what I perceived to be my value at the time, 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:30.359 And when those two things were true, I was typically 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.280 ready to move on out. Now. I wasn't like hitting 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:35.960 the job application boards. I was still continuing to do 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:39.360 my job really thoughtfully, but I never stopped sharing my work. 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:44.040 I was joining professional organizations, I was staying connected to colleagues, 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:47.880 and through those connections I would have opportunities come to me. 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:51.000 Do you think that forced you to choose between your 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:53.000 career goals and your financial goals? 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:55.960 No, no, not at all, I think. And you know 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:59.280 what when I talk about that, about having ten x 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:02.440 to my compensation over ten years and ten exing my 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.320 net worth along the way, people tend to immediately want 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:07.200 to know, well, what do you do. You must work 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:09.040 in tech, you must work in Google, and they want 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:12.360 to immediately find a reason why your success doesn't matter 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.000 to anyone else and how it can't be replicated. So 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:17.839 that was me quitting my way rich and quitting my 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:22.159 way to an executive editor position that no one was 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:24.120 going to give me, you know, at the New York 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:28.200 Times or CNN or wherever. I created that opportunity for 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:32.040 myself and the magical thing about having a title at 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.880 a company is that that's how people start to perceive you. 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:37.320 And I never went back to anything less than a 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:41.400 senior director, you know, after that point. And to answer 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:44.159 your question, no, I did not have to sacrifice career 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:46.919 or my financial goals in pursuit of my career goals. 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:50.400 Yeah. I think people don't realize that title matters, and 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:53.440 sometimes you feel like, well, if there's not a salary 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:56.320 attached to it, then what's the point. But I think 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:59.279 that that could be a huge missed opportunity that even 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:02.120 if you can squeeze more money out of the company 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:04.640 that you're with, if you can get them to bump 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:06.760 you to a better title, you can use that as 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:09.680 leverage at the next job. So I just, you know, 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:12.719 share this again on my Instagram about how men will 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:15.400 apply to jobs even when they only meet sixty percent 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.800 of the qualifications, but women will hold back unless they 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.880 meet one hundred percent. It sounds like you did not 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:24.440 fall into that category. You kind of jumped in even 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.120 if you didn't check every single box. Where did that 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:28.080 confidence come from? 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:30.960 I really think it comes down to that It's about 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.800 the fact that time and time again, as a woman 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.640 of color. I am a plus sized woman who's moved 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:40.320 through a world where this hair, this body that I 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:43.760 live in, my skin color is so not the norm. 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.720 It is so not who's getting the shine and getting 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:50.320 the prints and shining armor and getting the getting the 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:54.800 job on camera, you know, and I just resented it. 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:57.719 I was like, well, if that, you know, if I'm 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.440 not the person people usually think of, then I'm going 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:02.880 to think of myself. You know, what do I have 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.960 to gain by not thinking of myself in that way? 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.320 And as soon as I sort of recognize that no 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.039 one else expected much out of me, it sort of 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.440 gave myself the freedom to just expect everything from myself 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:16.440 and to always push myself. 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:19.440 I couldn't agree more. And I feel so seen by 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:20.160 listening to you. 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:20.359 You know. 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:22.280 Unfortunately we've learned to kind of. 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:25.440 Live with it, but it's it's not okay, and it's 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:29.080 an ongoing issue. So you talk to somebody, they tell 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:31.359 you what the salary range is. How do you actually 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:33.040 come up with a number to ask for? Do you 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:35.560 go straight to like the highest number on the range 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:37.560 when you're asking for your pay? 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:41.479 Well, I don't name a number. Ever, Initially that would 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.159 be my first piece of advice, you just don't want 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:46.560 to put a number out there. Initial numbers tend to 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:50.000 be sticky. The first question people are often asked during 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:52.920 interviews these days, and it usually is that first fifteen 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:56.360 minute recruiters treating call, which sounds so innocuous. Oh, I'm 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:58.280 just a recruiter from such and such company. You just 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:00.720 want to see if you're interested, And then they usually 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.880 will ask, hey, just wanted to know what's your expectation 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:06.599 for salary? At that moment, don't give an answer. What 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:08.919 you can say is, you know, I'm really interested in 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:10.680 the role, but I'd love to hear more about it 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:12.840 and learn more about the team before I feel prepared 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:16.480 to discuss compensation. That being said, if you guys have 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:18.960 a budget in mind or a range, I'd love to know, 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:21.720 and then it's up to them. You know, they can 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.200 give you a range or not. And as a hiring 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:26.720 manager myself, I always knew I could go up to 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:30.880 fifteen percent over the stated budget for the role, and 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:33.080 then after fifteen percent more I would need to get 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:37.280 special approval. What helps me negotiate harder for myself is 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:41.320 having a real deep, foundational understanding of what my market 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:43.640 value is and the best ways to do that are 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.040 not to go on glass door and look at salaries. 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:48.880 The best way, hands down, is to speak with other 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:49.920 people in your industry. 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:52.840 Yeah, and that's the thing. The offer is just an 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.280 opening negotiation point. Like a lot of people think, like 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:58.840 the offer is they're giving you their final and their best. 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:03.440 Absolutely not. They literally bake this into the process. It 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:05.840 is expected, especially if you're coming in through a recruiter, 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:08.880 it is one hundred percent expected that you're going to negotiate. 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:11.520 We're at that point you finally get the offer you 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:13.840 want to counter. Do you have some scripts that people 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:15.480 can use get it to the next level. 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:18.120 Yeah, So if you're getting an offer in email or 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:20.560 if they're calling you on the phone, don't feel pressured 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:22.880 to give an answer right away. I say, ask for 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:25.000 at least forty eight hours to review the offer and 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:27.440 get back to them. And in that forty eight hours 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:29.240 you can kind of think about what it is that 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:31.840 you want and think about some additional questions you may have. 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:35.120 I've definitely had coaching clients where they've gotten an offer 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:38.960 that just included base compensation and maybe it talked about 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:42.720 unlimited PTO and other benefits, but didn't talk about signing 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:45.680 bonus and equity, and she thought, oh, well, they must 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:47.480 not offer it, and I'm like, well, no, you have 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:50.240 to ask for it. Sometimes I prefer to call on 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:52.679 the phone and have a conversation and then follow up 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.520 with my ask via email. So when you come with 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:58.600 your offer, I would just make it clear, Okay, I 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.880 received your offer. I'm so excited. I'm a little bit 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:04.520 disappointed in the compensation. I would love to know if 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:08.760 this is negotiable. If so, I think XYZ range is 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:13.880 more appropriate given my skills and the responsibilities as discussed 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.480 during the interview process. Something really simple like that. 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:19.000 And there are so many other things that you know 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:20.880 we've touched on that you can ask for as well, 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:24.600 like relocation costs if you are moving. You can also 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:29.280 ask for more flexible schedule, maybe more PTO time. There 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:31.320 are a lot of other benefits that you may not 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.680 have even considered that could kind of, you know, perk 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:37.760 up that package for you. And you're just focusing on 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:40.840 the salary and the dollar amounts. So it's good to 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:43.600 get a little creative. What are some other benefits that 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:46.840 you encourage women to negotiate when they're trying to leverage 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:47.840 their offers. 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.800 I get the most excited when I'm helping coach of 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:53.880 women through a negotiation for a new opportunity. So this 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:57.000 is a new job opportunity, not at your current employer, 0:09:57.040 --> 0:09:58.840 because I mean, hands down, this is one of the 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:02.360 most lucrative offer are hitting the table. And it's not 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:05.280 just your base compensation. It's also the potential for a 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:06.880 signing bonus. And equity. 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:09.000 And Mandy, and let me stop you for a second. 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:11.000 Can you define for us what you mean by equity. 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:13.920 So equity is actually part ownership in the company. So 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.120 the same way that you may want to invest in 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:20.160 a publicly traded company like Apple or Peloton maybe not 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:23.920 now Tesla maybe more so, they will give you shares 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:26.920 in the company as an incentive, because typically with equity, 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.800 whether it's stock options or restricted stock units, they will 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:33.160 not give it to you right away. They'll say, Okay, 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:35.959 we're going to give you ten thousand dollars worth of equity, 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:38.319 but you can't actually do anything with it unless you 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:40.319 stay with us for a year. Then we're going to 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:42.760 give you one third, and then if you stay another year, 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:45.120 we'll give you the second third and so you can 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.720 cash in, you can sell that equity and then you 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:50.000 turn it into cash, whether you can use that for 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:52.160 debt or put it in your savings or trade it 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.160 for other stocks, whatever. But you got to stay right. 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:58.000 So that's a really big piece of advice for anyone 0:10:58.040 --> 0:10:59.079 who's feeling like. 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:03.040 Oh, but I have equity. Oh but I just joined 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:05.200 a year ago, and they're going to make me repay 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.480 my signing bonus if I leave sooner than a year, Well, 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:10.719 then tell the new job that and have them pay 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:15.000 for it. It's really cool, it's amazing. So be willing 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.680 to jump. And when you do jump, after you're finished 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:20.720 negotiating the base compensation, don't be afraid to ask for 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.280 signing bonus and equity. And depending on your level, like 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:26.440 if you're going an entry level, I'd like to say 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:28.600 like five to ten percent is a good benchmark for 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.400 a signing bonus. If you're coming in mid level to 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:34.640 senior level, ten to fifteen percent VP level or above 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:37.800 twenty percent minimum. 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:42.920 Let's move on to the downside of negotiating, because you know, 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:46.200 unfortunately I've heard too many stories. 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:47.520 Of women who go all in. 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:51.320 They negotiate, they ask, they lean in right, but then 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:54.600 their offer is revoked and it can be. 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:56.440 A devastating setback. 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:58.400 And I don't know if you're aware of, but Stephanie 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:01.400 O'Connell Rodriguez coined the raise the ambition penalty, and she 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:05.200 talks a lot about it, where women are penalized for 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.880 asking for more because they're seen as aggressive. What are 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:12.160 your thoughts on that and do you think that that's 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:14.800 something that women should consider when they're thinking about asking 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:15.240 for more. 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:20.280 I don't want that to dissuade anyone asking for more. Let's, 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.920 you know, hypothetically, say a woman asks for more than 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:26.840 a male candidate and her offer is rescinded, and it's 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:29.360 because the hiring manager is a woman or a male 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:31.600 who's offended that she would want so much and is like, 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:34.160 we don't want to work with her. I don't think 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:35.599 you want to work there either. I don't think you 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.240 want to work there anyway. That's kind of the game 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:40.560 we play when we work for companies. It's sort of 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:42.040 like when you put a house on the market and 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:44.400 you think it's worth a million dollars, but if someone 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:46.200 only wants to pay six hundred and grand for it 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:49.640 because it's not on the good side of town. Well 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:53.000 that's what the market wants, right then, Okay, so what's 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:54.880 your option. You can hold on to it for a 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:57.160 bit longer, find a buyer who's willing to pay what 0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.480 you know you're worth. And that's kind of what I 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.839 always did myself. Just keep waiting until you find or 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:06.440 keep looking for a place that will really value you, 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:08.520 or start your own business like we did. 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:11.240 We have to keep pushing forward. We have to keep 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:15.120 asking for more. Otherwise that wealth gap is just going 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:18.440 to continue to grow and grow indefinitely and things won't 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:18.880 get better. 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:21.880 As a woman of color too, sometimes you can't wait 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:24.000 for companies to get it together when it comes to 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:28.080 creating support and resources and mentorship for us. So if 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:32.199 there is an executive coaching program, or a career coaching program, 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:35.760 or a leadership I did a week long leadership seminar. 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.280 I knew I wanted more management training and my company 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:40.000 didn't offer it. So I went out and found it 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:41.760 and they paid for it. So if you come to 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:44.200 them and you say we're if you already have a 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:46.840 coach or a program that you go to annually and 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:50.240 you're negotiating a new job, offer definitely ask if there's 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:54.000 a leadership and development budget that you can use annually 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:57.720 to invest in your own leadership training and to get 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.400 support from peers and put yourself in a position where 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:02.960 you'll get to meet other peers in your industry and 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:07.400 keep that networking skill always active. That's definitely something to 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:11.960 consider asking during negotiations as well. We're going to take a. 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:14.360 Quick break, but we'll be back soon to talk about 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:27.120 when salary negotiation went viral. Stay with us, Welcome back 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:31.720 to diversifying. This January, social media went crazy over a 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:36.280 post by recruiter Mercedes Johnson. It read quote, I just 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.200 offered a candidate eighty five thousand dollars for a job 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:41.880 that had a budget of one hundred and thirty thousand dollars. 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:44.360 I offered her that because that's what she asked for, 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.240 and I personally don't have the bandwidth to give lessons 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.800 on salary negotiation. Here's a lesson. Always ask for the 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:51.760 salary you want. 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:52.560 End quote. 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:58.000 The Internet did not react well to this. People were outraged. 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:00.960 They felt that Mercedes should have told the candidate about 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:03.600 the full range of pay, or at least let them 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:05.640 know that there was more wiggle room in the budget. 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.960 The Internet accused her of being a corporate chill and 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:12.120 said she was contributing to the gender and racial pay gap. 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:14.840 We caught up with Mercedes to get her side of 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:15.320 the story. 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:18.680 So I really honestly meant for everybody to take ownership 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.119 of their interviewing process. You know, I believe that information 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:25.080 does not mail itself to your front door. 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:28.680 Mercedes works for a recruitment training company and has been 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:32.040 in the field for years. She stands behind her message. 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:36.400 I understand the pain point that kind of got everybody 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:39.280 you know up and upset about this because I understand 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:43.240 that how it came across was very bad. But companies 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:46.200 do not owe it to the employee to give them 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:49.440 their complete budget for each job. And quite frankly, I 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.320 don't think that many companies can do that. I feel 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:55.640 like if that was the way that the world worked, 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:58.359 then we wouldn't have balance. 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.640 She also thinks it's a mistake to talk to your 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:05.400 coworkers about their salaries because it can make employees think 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:06.880 they should all be paid the same. 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:10.960 No employee has been through the same schooling, no employee 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:13.160 has the same work ethic. No employee is going to 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:15.560 ask for the same thing, So I don't really think 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:18.600 it's fair for each company to pay an employee the 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:21.920 same thing, which is why the salary range is so relevant. 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:26.400 Personally, I really disagree with this. Knowing what your coworkers 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.800 make doesn't automatically mean that you are entitled to the 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.760 same pay. It just allows you to make a case 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:34.640 for why you should also be at the top of 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:39.920 the range. In addition, under federal law, employers cannot prohibit 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:44.160 employees from discussing their pay. But it's valuable to know 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.880 that some companies and recruiters do think this way, and 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:50.720 job applicants should be aware of it. Just because this 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:53.880 is sometimes the case, though, doesn't mean it isn't harmful. 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:56.160 Here's Mandy Woodrow Santo's again. 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.800 It completely ignores the fact that companies have all of 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:02.400 the cards, They have all the power in this situation, 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:05.200 and to expect the person on the other side of 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:07.040 the phone or the other side of the email with 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:09.359 the least amount of power to somehow come up with 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:12.440 and guess to see what kind of cards you're holding. 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:14.560 It just does not make sense at all to me. 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:17.680 To Mandy, it makes sense that a brand new hire 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.840 with less experience in the field would be paid less, 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:24.000 but the company should be able to explain why, and 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:27.240 she thinks employees should discuss pay with their peers so 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.520 they can put together a unique and informed ask. We 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.360 actually had a few listeners call us with their salary 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.359 stories so that Mandy could weigh in and give some advice. 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:38.639 One of them brought up an issue that can be 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:42.720 solved by having these exact kinds of conversations a. 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.679 Fee like as being of an Asian descent, we're all 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:48.399 likely put in a category where we're not supposed to 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:51.640 even talk about salary and accept whatever we offer to us. 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:55.800 Being my colleagues who are out there more with a 0:17:55.880 --> 0:18:00.400 wider background, they negotiate not only their salary and started 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:04.080 us bonuses, which is never heard of in my generation 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:04.639 as well. 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:07.480 What I love about this listener question is I think 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:11.240 it demonstrates the power of speaking as uncomfortable and awkward 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:14.040 as it can be, of speaking to your colleagues about 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:16.639 what it is that they're earning. And maybe it's if 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:18.639 it's truly uncomfortable for you to talk to colleges at 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:20.679 your current company, I at least talk to people at 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.160 other companies in a similar industry. At a similar level 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:25.320 and talk amongst one another. 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:25.800 Share. 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.399 You know, it may not be everyone who wants to 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:30.520 tell you here's what I earn, but they may give 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:32.560 you an expectation of even oh yeah, I got a 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:34.760 signing bonus, and then that perks something up in you, 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:37.800 like a signing bonus. What's that? How much I didn't 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:39.919 know I could get that? But it goes back to 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:42.760 the power of sharing and having people around you who 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:44.600 can influence you in a positive way. 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:49.320 Another listener actually negotiated successfully but found out not all 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:50.879 her coworkers had done the same. 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:55.280 I'm actually had a really difficult conversation with someone on 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:58.560 my team who's the title above being, and I found 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:02.399 out that we actually make the same salary, So very 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:05.640 exciting for me. I think that means they negotiated really well, 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:07.639 But it also means that she's getting underpaid. 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:12.000 Awkward. But you know what, incredible of you to share 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:14.720 that with her, and if that doesn't light a fire 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:16.480 in her belly to get on up out of there 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.040 and go somewhere where she's paid what she's value, than 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.320 it should. But here's the other thing. I'm willing to 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:23.359 bet that she's been at that company longer than you 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:25.760 have and that you are a more recent hire. And 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:27.800 this is what goes back to the point of when 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.120 you're willing to quit and move on to a new opportunity, 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:32.639 that's when you get the biggest bumps and pay the 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:35.000