1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: He hey via fam It's mandra here. I am so 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: excited to tell you about this special guest episode of 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: CNN's Diversifying and Diversifying if you have not heard, it 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: as a brand new personal finance podcast from CNN Audio 5 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: hosted by My Girl, Delian Barros, also known as the 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: money Coach. You may have seen her and if you haven't, 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: where have you been hiding under a rock? On TikTok 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: and Instagram, Delian shares amazing investing and fire tips so 9 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: that you can get off that hamster wheel and fulfill 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: your financial dreams. And I was honored to be a 11 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: guest on CNN's Diversifying with Delian earlier this year, so 12 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: today we are going to share that episode with you. 13 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: It is called Negotiating Your Way to Success. In this episode, 14 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: we talk about all of the ways that you can 15 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: actually negotiate for more at work, whether you're looking for 16 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: a new job or you're asking for a raise on 17 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: the job. Can't wait for you guys to hear the show, 18 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: and if you haven't yet, please follow and subscribe to 19 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: diversity find This show explores how the traditional rules of 20 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: money management don't necessarily apply to new generations. And again 21 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: with Delian as the host. You cannot go wrong. Go 22 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: check out Diversifying. You can listen to it wherever you 23 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. 24 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 2: A record number of Americans quit their jobs in the 25 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 2: last year, including me, in what's now being called the 26 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 2: Great Resignation. The pandemic has made a lot of people 27 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 2: realize that the demands of their job weren't lining up 28 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 2: with their salary expectations. Even before COVID, leaving a job 29 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: has been a great way to climb the career ladder 30 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 2: and increase your pay. 31 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: I'm an excellent quitter. Six times I quit, and I 32 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: never quit with nothing else lined up. 33 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 2: Mandy Woodrow Santo's is a career coach, former hiring manager, 34 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 2: and founder of the Mandy Money business and brand. She 35 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: also co hosts the podcast Brown Ambition, which focuses on 36 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 2: helping people of color build wealth. 37 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 3: Of course, quitting. 38 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 2: Isn't the only way to get more money or benefits. 39 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 2: It's just one form of that scary but critical thing 40 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 2: called negotiating. 41 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: I have learned that taking charge of your career often 42 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: does mean walking away when opportunities are no longer giving 43 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 1: you the financial or career advance Men opportunities that they 44 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: may have when you first started. 45 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 2: I know not everyone can afford to quit their job 46 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 2: or walk away from a lackluster offer. 47 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 3: Don't worry, those aren't the only options. Today. 48 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: We're talking about how to get what you're worth at work, 49 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 2: from salaries to signing bonuses to titles. 50 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 3: I'm Delian Barrows. This is diversifying. 51 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 2: Mandy's career began in journalism at a small newspaper in Atlanta, Georgia. 52 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 2: She left that job after only two weeks for a 53 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 2: better offer, and since then has never missed an opportunity 54 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 2: to ask for more money with each jump of the 55 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: professional ladder. 56 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: Looking back over my career, I've went from earning thirty 57 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: thousand dollars to over three hundred thousand dollars in total 58 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: compensation in a decade. 59 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 3: That's incredible. I mean, can we just take a minute. 60 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 2: Thirty thousand to three hundred thousand dollars that is just 61 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 2: one of the most impressive salary negotiation stories I've ever heard. 62 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: The reasons I quit always had to do with a 63 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: couple of things. One, I wasn't getting the opportunities for 64 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: advancement in my current role, or two I wasn't being 65 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: paid what I perceived to be my value at the time, 66 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 1: And when those two things were true, I was typically 67 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: ready to move on out. Now. I wasn't like hitting 68 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: the job application boards. I was still continuing to do 69 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: my job really thoughtfully, but I never stopped sharing my work. 70 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: I was joining professional organizations, I was staying connected to colleagues, 71 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: and through those connections I would have opportunities come to me. 72 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 2: Do you think that forced you to choose between your 73 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 2: career goals and your financial goals? 74 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: No, no, not at all, I think. And you know 75 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: what when I talk about that, about having ten x 76 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: to my compensation over ten years and ten exing my 77 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: net worth along the way, people tend to immediately want 78 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: to know, well, what do you do. You must work 79 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: in tech, you must work in Google, and they want 80 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: to immediately find a reason why your success doesn't matter 81 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: to anyone else and how it can't be replicated. So 82 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: that was me quitting my way rich and quitting my 83 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: way to an executive editor position that no one was 84 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: going to give me, you know, at the New York 85 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: Times or CNN or wherever. I created that opportunity for 86 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: myself and the magical thing about having a title at 87 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: a company is that that's how people start to perceive you. 88 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: And I never went back to anything less than a 89 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: senior director, you know, after that point. And to answer 90 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: your question, no, I did not have to sacrifice career 91 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 1: or my financial goals in pursuit of my career goals. 92 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think people don't realize that title matters, and 93 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 2: sometimes you feel like, well, if there's not a salary 94 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 2: attached to it, then what's the point. But I think 95 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 2: that that could be a huge missed opportunity that even 96 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: if you can squeeze more money out of the company 97 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: that you're with, if you can get them to bump 98 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 2: you to a better title, you can use that as 99 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 2: leverage at the next job. So I just, you know, 100 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 2: share this again on my Instagram about how men will 101 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 2: apply to jobs even when they only meet sixty percent 102 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: of the qualifications, but women will hold back unless they 103 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: meet one hundred percent. It sounds like you did not 104 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 2: fall into that category. You kind of jumped in even 105 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 2: if you didn't check every single box. Where did that 106 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 2: confidence come from? 107 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: I really think it comes down to that It's about 108 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: the fact that time and time again, as a woman 109 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: of color. I am a plus sized woman who's moved 110 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: through a world where this hair, this body that I 111 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: live in, my skin color is so not the norm. 112 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 1: It is so not who's getting the shine and getting 113 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: the prints and shining armor and getting the getting the 114 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: job on camera, you know, and I just resented it. 115 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: I was like, well, if that, you know, if I'm 116 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: not the person people usually think of, then I'm going 117 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: to think of myself. You know, what do I have 118 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: to gain by not thinking of myself in that way? 119 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: And as soon as I sort of recognize that no 120 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 1: one else expected much out of me, it sort of 121 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: gave myself the freedom to just expect everything from myself 122 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: and to always push myself. 123 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more. And I feel so seen by 124 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 2: listening to you. 125 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:20,359 Speaker 1: You know. 126 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 3: Unfortunately we've learned to kind of. 127 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 2: Live with it, but it's it's not okay, and it's 128 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 2: an ongoing issue. So you talk to somebody, they tell 129 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,359 Speaker 2: you what the salary range is. How do you actually 130 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 2: come up with a number to ask for? Do you 131 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 2: go straight to like the highest number on the range 132 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 2: when you're asking for your pay? 133 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: Well, I don't name a number. Ever, Initially that would 134 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: be my first piece of advice, you just don't want 135 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: to put a number out there. Initial numbers tend to 136 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: be sticky. The first question people are often asked during 137 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: interviews these days, and it usually is that first fifteen 138 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: minute recruiters treating call, which sounds so innocuous. Oh, I'm 139 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: just a recruiter from such and such company. You just 140 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 1: want to see if you're interested, And then they usually 141 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: will ask, hey, just wanted to know what's your expectation 142 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 1: for salary? At that moment, don't give an answer. What 143 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 1: you can say is, you know, I'm really interested in 144 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: the role, but I'd love to hear more about it 145 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: and learn more about the team before I feel prepared 146 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: to discuss compensation. That being said, if you guys have 147 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: a budget in mind or a range, I'd love to know, 148 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: and then it's up to them. You know, they can 149 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: give you a range or not. And as a hiring 150 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: manager myself, I always knew I could go up to 151 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: fifteen percent over the stated budget for the role, and 152 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: then after fifteen percent more I would need to get 153 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: special approval. What helps me negotiate harder for myself is 154 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: having a real deep, foundational understanding of what my market 155 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: value is and the best ways to do that are 156 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: not to go on glass door and look at salaries. 157 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: The best way, hands down, is to speak with other 158 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: people in your industry. 159 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the thing. The offer is just an 160 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 2: opening negotiation point. Like a lot of people think, like 161 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 2: the offer is they're giving you their final and their best. 162 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 2: Absolutely not. They literally bake this into the process. It 163 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 2: is expected, especially if you're coming in through a recruiter, 164 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 2: it is one hundred percent expected that you're going to negotiate. 165 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 2: We're at that point you finally get the offer you 166 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 2: want to counter. Do you have some scripts that people 167 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: can use get it to the next level. 168 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, So if you're getting an offer in email or 169 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: if they're calling you on the phone, don't feel pressured 170 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: to give an answer right away. I say, ask for 171 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: at least forty eight hours to review the offer and 172 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: get back to them. And in that forty eight hours 173 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: you can kind of think about what it is that 174 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: you want and think about some additional questions you may have. 175 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: I've definitely had coaching clients where they've gotten an offer 176 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: that just included base compensation and maybe it talked about 177 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: unlimited PTO and other benefits, but didn't talk about signing 178 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: bonus and equity, and she thought, oh, well, they must 179 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: not offer it, and I'm like, well, no, you have 180 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: to ask for it. Sometimes I prefer to call on 181 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 1: the phone and have a conversation and then follow up 182 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: with my ask via email. So when you come with 183 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: your offer, I would just make it clear, Okay, I 184 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: received your offer. I'm so excited. I'm a little bit 185 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: disappointed in the compensation. I would love to know if 186 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: this is negotiable. If so, I think XYZ range is 187 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: more appropriate given my skills and the responsibilities as discussed 188 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: during the interview process. Something really simple like that. 189 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 2: And there are so many other things that you know 190 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 2: we've touched on that you can ask for as well, 191 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 2: like relocation costs if you are moving. You can also 192 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 2: ask for more flexible schedule, maybe more PTO time. There 193 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 2: are a lot of other benefits that you may not 194 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 2: have even considered that could kind of, you know, perk 195 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 2: up that package for you. And you're just focusing on 196 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 2: the salary and the dollar amounts. So it's good to 197 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 2: get a little creative. What are some other benefits that 198 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 2: you encourage women to negotiate when they're trying to leverage 199 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 2: their offers. 200 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: I get the most excited when I'm helping coach of 201 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: women through a negotiation for a new opportunity. So this 202 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: is a new job opportunity, not at your current employer, 203 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: because I mean, hands down, this is one of the 204 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: most lucrative offer are hitting the table. And it's not 205 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: just your base compensation. It's also the potential for a 206 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: signing bonus. And equity. 207 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 2: And Mandy, and let me stop you for a second. 208 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 2: Can you define for us what you mean by equity. 209 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 2: So equity is actually part ownership in the company. So 210 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 2: the same way that you may want to invest in 211 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 2: a publicly traded company like Apple or Peloton maybe not 212 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 2: now Tesla maybe more so, they will give you shares 213 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: in the company as an incentive, because typically with equity, 214 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 2: whether it's stock options or restricted stock units, they will 215 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 2: not give it to you right away. They'll say, Okay, 216 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 2: we're going to give you ten thousand dollars worth of equity, 217 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 2: but you can't actually do anything with it unless you 218 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 2: stay with us for a year. Then we're going to 219 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 2: give you one third, and then if you stay another year, 220 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 2: we'll give you the second third and so you can 221 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 2: cash in, you can sell that equity and then you 222 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 2: turn it into cash, whether you can use that for 223 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: debt or put it in your savings or trade it 224 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 2: for other stocks, whatever. But you got to stay right. 225 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 2: So that's a really big piece of advice for anyone 226 00:10:58,040 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 2: who's feeling like. 227 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: Oh, but I have equity. Oh but I just joined 228 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: a year ago, and they're going to make me repay 229 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: my signing bonus if I leave sooner than a year, Well, 230 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,719 Speaker 1: then tell the new job that and have them pay 231 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: for it. It's really cool, it's amazing. So be willing 232 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 1: to jump. And when you do jump, after you're finished 233 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: negotiating the base compensation, don't be afraid to ask for 234 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: signing bonus and equity. And depending on your level, like 235 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: if you're going an entry level, I'd like to say 236 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: like five to ten percent is a good benchmark for 237 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: a signing bonus. If you're coming in mid level to 238 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: senior level, ten to fifteen percent VP level or above 239 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: twenty percent minimum. 240 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 2: Let's move on to the downside of negotiating, because you know, 241 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 2: unfortunately I've heard too many stories. 242 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 3: Of women who go all in. 243 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 2: They negotiate, they ask, they lean in right, but then 244 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 2: their offer is revoked and it can be. 245 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 3: A devastating setback. 246 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: And I don't know if you're aware of, but Stephanie 247 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 2: O'Connell Rodriguez coined the raise the ambition penalty, and she 248 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 2: talks a lot about it, where women are penalized for 249 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 2: asking for more because they're seen as aggressive. What are 250 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 2: your thoughts on that and do you think that that's 251 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 2: something that women should consider when they're thinking about asking 252 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 2: for more. 253 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: I don't want that to dissuade anyone asking for more. Let's, 254 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: you know, hypothetically, say a woman asks for more than 255 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: a male candidate and her offer is rescinded, and it's 256 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: because the hiring manager is a woman or a male 257 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: who's offended that she would want so much and is like, 258 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: we don't want to work with her. I don't think 259 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:35,599 Speaker 1: you want to work there either. I don't think you 260 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: want to work there anyway. That's kind of the game 261 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: we play when we work for companies. It's sort of 262 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: like when you put a house on the market and 263 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: you think it's worth a million dollars, but if someone 264 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: only wants to pay six hundred and grand for it 265 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: because it's not on the good side of town. Well 266 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: that's what the market wants, right then, Okay, so what's 267 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: your option. You can hold on to it for a 268 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: bit longer, find a buyer who's willing to pay what 269 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: you know you're worth. And that's kind of what I 270 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 1: always did myself. Just keep waiting until you find or 271 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: keep looking for a place that will really value you, 272 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: or start your own business like we did. 273 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 2: We have to keep pushing forward. We have to keep 274 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 2: asking for more. Otherwise that wealth gap is just going 275 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 2: to continue to grow and grow indefinitely and things won't 276 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 2: get better. 277 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: As a woman of color too, sometimes you can't wait 278 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: for companies to get it together when it comes to 279 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: creating support and resources and mentorship for us. So if 280 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:32,199 Speaker 1: there is an executive coaching program, or a career coaching program, 281 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: or a leadership I did a week long leadership seminar. 282 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: I knew I wanted more management training and my company 283 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: didn't offer it. So I went out and found it 284 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: and they paid for it. So if you come to 285 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: them and you say we're if you already have a 286 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: coach or a program that you go to annually and 287 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: you're negotiating a new job, offer definitely ask if there's 288 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: a leadership and development budget that you can use annually 289 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: to invest in your own leadership training and to get 290 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: support from peers and put yourself in a position where 291 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: you'll get to meet other peers in your industry and 292 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: keep that networking skill always active. That's definitely something to 293 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: consider asking during negotiations as well. We're going to take a. 294 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 2: Quick break, but we'll be back soon to talk about 295 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 2: when salary negotiation went viral. Stay with us, Welcome back 296 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 2: to diversifying. This January, social media went crazy over a 297 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: post by recruiter Mercedes Johnson. It read quote, I just 298 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 2: offered a candidate eighty five thousand dollars for a job 299 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 2: that had a budget of one hundred and thirty thousand dollars. 300 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 2: I offered her that because that's what she asked for, 301 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 2: and I personally don't have the bandwidth to give lessons 302 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 2: on salary negotiation. Here's a lesson. Always ask for the 303 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 2: salary you want. 304 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 4: End quote. 305 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 2: The Internet did not react well to this. People were outraged. 306 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 2: They felt that Mercedes should have told the candidate about 307 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 2: the full range of pay, or at least let them 308 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 2: know that there was more wiggle room in the budget. 309 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 2: The Internet accused her of being a corporate chill and 310 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 2: said she was contributing to the gender and racial pay gap. 311 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 2: We caught up with Mercedes to get her side of 312 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 2: the story. 313 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 5: So I really honestly meant for everybody to take ownership 314 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,119 Speaker 5: of their interviewing process. You know, I believe that information 315 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 5: does not mail itself to your front door. 316 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: Mercedes works for a recruitment training company and has been 317 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 2: in the field for years. She stands behind her message. 318 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 5: I understand the pain point that kind of got everybody 319 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 5: you know up and upset about this because I understand 320 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 5: that how it came across was very bad. But companies 321 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 5: do not owe it to the employee to give them 322 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 5: their complete budget for each job. And quite frankly, I 323 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 5: don't think that many companies can do that. I feel 324 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 5: like if that was the way that the world worked, 325 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,359 Speaker 5: then we wouldn't have balance. 326 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 2: She also thinks it's a mistake to talk to your 327 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 2: coworkers about their salaries because it can make employees think 328 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 2: they should all be paid the same. 329 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 5: No employee has been through the same schooling, no employee 330 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 5: has the same work ethic. No employee is going to 331 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 5: ask for the same thing, So I don't really think 332 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 5: it's fair for each company to pay an employee the 333 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 5: same thing, which is why the salary range is so relevant. 334 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 2: Personally, I really disagree with this. Knowing what your coworkers 335 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 2: make doesn't automatically mean that you are entitled to the 336 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 2: same pay. It just allows you to make a case 337 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 2: for why you should also be at the top of 338 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 2: the range. In addition, under federal law, employers cannot prohibit 339 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 2: employees from discussing their pay. But it's valuable to know 340 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 2: that some companies and recruiters do think this way, and 341 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: job applicants should be aware of it. Just because this 342 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 2: is sometimes the case, though, doesn't mean it isn't harmful. 343 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 2: Here's Mandy Woodrow Santo's again. 344 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: It completely ignores the fact that companies have all of 345 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: the cards, They have all the power in this situation, 346 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: and to expect the person on the other side of 347 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: the phone or the other side of the email with 348 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: the least amount of power to somehow come up with 349 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 1: and guess to see what kind of cards you're holding. 350 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: It just does not make sense at all to me. 351 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 2: To Mandy, it makes sense that a brand new hire 352 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 2: with less experience in the field would be paid less, 353 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 2: but the company should be able to explain why, and 354 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 2: she thinks employees should discuss pay with their peers so 355 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 2: they can put together a unique and informed ask. We 356 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 2: actually had a few listeners call us with their salary 357 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 2: stories so that Mandy could weigh in and give some advice. 358 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 2: One of them brought up an issue that can be 359 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 2: solved by having these exact kinds of conversations a. 360 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 6: Fee like as being of an Asian descent, we're all 361 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 6: likely put in a category where we're not supposed to 362 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 6: even talk about salary and accept whatever we offer to us. 363 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 6: Being my colleagues who are out there more with a 364 00:17:55,880 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 6: wider background, they negotiate not only their salary and started 365 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 6: us bonuses, which is never heard of in my generation 366 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 6: as well. 367 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: What I love about this listener question is I think 368 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: it demonstrates the power of speaking as uncomfortable and awkward 369 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: as it can be, of speaking to your colleagues about 370 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 1: what it is that they're earning. And maybe it's if 371 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: it's truly uncomfortable for you to talk to colleges at 372 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: your current company, I at least talk to people at 373 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: other companies in a similar industry. At a similar level 374 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: and talk amongst one another. 375 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 5: Share. 376 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: You know, it may not be everyone who wants to 377 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: tell you here's what I earn, but they may give 378 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: you an expectation of even oh yeah, I got a 379 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: signing bonus, and then that perks something up in you, 380 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: like a signing bonus. What's that? How much I didn't 381 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: know I could get that? But it goes back to 382 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: the power of sharing and having people around you who 383 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: can influence you in a positive way. 384 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 2: Another listener actually negotiated successfully but found out not all 385 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 2: her coworkers had done the same. 386 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 4: I'm actually had a really difficult conversation with someone on 387 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 4: my team who's the title above being, and I found 388 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 4: out that we actually make the same salary, So very 389 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 4: exciting for me. I think that means they negotiated really well, 390 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 4: But it also means that she's getting underpaid. 391 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: Awkward. But you know what, incredible of you to share 392 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: that with her, and if that doesn't light a fire 393 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: in her belly to get on up out of there 394 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: and go somewhere where she's paid what she's value, than 395 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: it should. But here's the other thing. I'm willing to 396 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: bet that she's been at that company longer than you 397 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: have and that you are a more recent hire. And 398 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: this is what goes back to the point of when 399 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: you're willing to quit and move on to a new opportunity, 400 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: that's when you get the biggest bumps and pay the 401 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: leverage you have. When a company's trying to woo you 402 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: and incentivize you to leave your company, those incentives are 403 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: just bigger. 404 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 2: Our last listener voicemail comes from someone who's coworker has 405 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 2: a problematic but understandable take on getting a raise. 406 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 7: I recently had a colleague of mine say that they 407 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 7: didn't want to take on more salary because they felt 408 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 7: as if if they took more money, they would be 409 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 7: tasked with more work. You know, it's just like now 410 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 7: they owe more to the company. And I said, you 411 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 7: really shouldn't think of it that way. You should think 412 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 7: of it more as your time is worth that much. 413 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not the first time I've heard this, and 414 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: it especially comes well. I speak to a lot of 415 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: women of color. That's just too I gravitate towards my people. 416 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: I love us, and I have heard especially women who 417 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: have this perception that they take more money they go 418 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: for a promotion they're going to have less time, they're 419 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: going to be more stressed out, they're going to have 420 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: to sacrifice the work life balance they've worked really hard 421 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: to cultivate. And what frustrates me about that is it 422 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: makes it seem like we are enforcing our own glass 423 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: sealing in a way, like we're stopping ourselves from going 424 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: to the highest levels because we're telling ourself a story 425 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: about what our life has to look like if we 426 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: get there, and we're not really taking into consideration that. 427 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: I agree with that listener that yes, your time is 428 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: actually worth that, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you 429 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: have to do anything different than what you're doing now, 430 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: but your skills at this company may be just worth 431 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: a lot more. So, especially as we're moving back into 432 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: the office, a lot of people are I'm not going 433 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 1: to say going back to work, because we've all been 434 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: working this whole time, but going back into the office. 435 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: As a leader, I would think really carefully about intentionally 436 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 1: promoting or giving accolades to people who choose to work 437 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: remotely to show that we still value you and that 438 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: we're not thinking less of you because you're not in 439 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: the office. 440 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 2: That was Mandy Woodrow Santo's with some incredible advice for 441 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 2: getting what you're worth at work. Negotiating is a normal 442 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 2: part of the job process and employers aren't expecting it. 443 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 2: The bottom line is this, do some research to determine 444 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 2: your value and then ask for it. Next Monday, we're 445 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 2: breaking down why everything from your gas to your groceries 446 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 2: is getting more expensive and it's all because of inflation. 447 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 3: To the end of the day, we all need to 448 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 3: be paid more, you know, if everything keeps going up, 449 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 3: we need to be paid more to survive. 450 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 2: Make sure to follow us so you don't miss and 451 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 2: if you like what you heard, please recommend the podcast 452 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 2: to your friends and family, then give us a rating 453 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 2: and a review. It's really helpful, especially since we're just 454 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 2: starting out. Diversifying is a production of CNN Audio. Megan 455 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 2: Marcus is our executive producer and Hailey Thomas is our 456 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 2: senior producer. Our producers are Alex Stern, Kinsey Clark, and 457 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 2: Madeline Thompson. Our associate producer is Cheri Satchel, and our 458 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 2: production assistant is Eden getachew. Eduardo Ocampo is our intern. 459 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 2: Mixing and sound design by Francisco Monroy. Artwork designed by 460 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 2: Brett Urdock. Original music by Andrew eaven Our. Technical director 461 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: is Dan Dezoula, with support from Chip Grabow, Steve Keel, 462 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 2: Anissa Wells, Abby Fentrist Swanson, Tamika Balance, Kalosney Ashley Lusk, 463 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 2: Lindsay Abrams, Raf Feno, Maud, Lisa Namro and Courtney Coop. 464 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 2: I'm Delian Barrows. Thanks for listening.