WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 132 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:02.920 Al Zone Media. 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:05.800 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.480 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.559 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:16.400 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:18.880 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:20.840 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:22.639 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:24.360 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:28.960 Hello, and welcome to it could happen here a podcast 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:31.120 about things falling apart and how we try to put 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:34.080 them back together again. I'm your guest host, Margaret Kiljoy, 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.000 and with me this week is one of your regular hosts. Here, 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:41.800 higare Hello, this week is one of those putting things 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.840 back together episodes. The premise of this episode is simple. 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:50.559 Let's say you're newly radicalized. Maybe you are participant in 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:53.239 the occupations and now the school year is over, or 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:57.120 you got expelled and you're wondering what the next steps are. 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:00.920 This won't be an it's all in one guide to 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:02.720 how to become an activist, but it's sort of a 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:05.679 sketch of one. It's also not quite a complete Summer 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:08.959 twenty twenty four guide to Protests, but there's some of 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:12.639 that in here too. It's a Magpie's guide to getting 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:17.280 started in activism. I want to start with my own 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:20.440 biases upfront because it's going to inform everything that I 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:23.280 have to say about all of this. I'm an anarchist. 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:26.160 It's also been decades since I've broke into the movement. 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:28.520 I've been doing this stuff since two thousand and two, 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:30.559 when I dropped out of college to join the ultra 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.959 globalization movement. So I have biases towards things like dropping 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:35.920 out of college because it worked for me, and I 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:40.560 have You know, a lot of my experience isn't recent, 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.520 at least my direct experience personally, but I've been watching 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:45.640 people come into the movement for a very long time. 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:50.960 I also have biases against authoritarian organizing and electoral organizing, 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:54.680 and biases towards direct action and autonomy as models for 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.480 radical social change. I believe this is how you build 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.240 a freer and better world by practicing freedom along the way. 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:06.560 But you can adapt this to suit your own interests. 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:09.680 That's not to say I have any interest in guiding 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:13.200 people towards specific paths, specific actions, specific issues, and movements 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:15.760 exactly the opposite. This is my attempt to kind of 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:19.840 give a the big picture view of how one might 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:24.560 get involved right now. I don't know if you knew this, Gaar, 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:26.520 the world's kind of in trouble. 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:30.160 I have heard this before. I have heard this said. 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:32.840 Yeah, do you ever like think about how your job 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:34.360 is to be a professional chicken little? 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:35.720 Yeah? 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:39.520 Sometimes I guess so. Yeah, I mean I'm definitely in 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:42.520 the dredges trying to find what horrible things are always happening. 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:47.239 Certainly, yeah, I would say, even though the world is 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:50.440 always in serious trouble, it's like extra in serious trouble 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:54.920 right now, and we are in desperate need of people 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:56.960 who dedicate their time, whether part of it or all 0:02:57.040 --> 0:02:58.840 of it, to trying to stop the terrible things that 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:01.880 are happening and trying to build beautiful things and beautiful alternatives. 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:05.720 So how do you get started? I want you to 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:07.720 think about a couple different things that are separate from 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:09.959 each other. I want you to think about This isn't 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:12.800 necessarily you gare, although you could if you want, sure, 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:13.200 why not? 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:15.560 Yeah? What do you care about? 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:18.200 Like? What issues are specifically important to you? It's the 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:22.120 first thing to think about. The second is what do 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:26.600 you want to do about it? And if you have 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:28.560 a sense of that, and like also kind of how 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:31.440 far you're willing to go. If you get a sense 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:33.840 of those things before you throw yourself into the fight, 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:36.800 you're going to start off strong. Those things can change, 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:41.120 they will change over time, but getting a sense of 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:42.760 those ahead of time is a good way to figure 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:44.520 out which door you want to go in, and then 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:46.560 also to avoid some of the dangers that lie on 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:50.320 the other side of any given door. What do you 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:53.680 care about? What movements and projects speak loudest to you? 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:57.080 A ton of causes are interconnected, of course, right the 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:00.400 fight for Palestinian liberation is not at its core separate 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:02.920 project than the fight against policing in the United States, 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:05.600 for example, the rise of a global police state is 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:09.800 everyone's problem, and so is the US and Zionist imperial project. 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:14.440 Causes are interconnected, but you can rarely start by trying 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:18.520 to fix everything. Usually got to pick somewhere to start working. 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:21.640 You don't climb a mountain by just willing yourself to 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:23.599 the top. You climb it by picking a place and 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:27.839 then starting to climb it. Maybe you're concerned about the 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:30.680 police state or surveillance, or the erosion of rights or 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:33.919 Palestinian liberation, or fighting for prisoners in the US to 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:36.800 still have access to books, or for LGBT rights, or 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.040 for migrants at the border, or for the protection of 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:42.159 the remaining national ecosystems and stopping the expansion of fossil 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:47.040 fuel infrastructure. Maybe you're concerned about something hyper local, like 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.800 the destruction of a local park or the sweeping of 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:54.040 homeless encampments. Maybe it's something a bit broader and more abstract, 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.520 like you want to get involved in explaining the need 0:04:56.560 --> 0:05:00.400 for police abolition, but there's something, there's some that you 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.400 want to change. As a place to start, the second 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:07.080 question is what do you want to do. There's multiple 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:08.960 questions embedded in this. There's how far are you willing 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:12.039 to go? We'll talk more of that later, more immediately, 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:15.359 what is your skill set or what skill sets do 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:17.120 you wish you had? Like a lot of times I'll 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:18.279 just be like, oh, hey, what are you good at? 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:20.919 And now I'll go do that. But sometimes like what 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:22.440 you're good at isn't what you want to be doing. 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:24.000 And it's also totally okay to be like, well, what 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:25.320 do I want to be good at, Like what do 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:29.120 I want to be trying to focus on what do 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:31.440 you have to offer the revolution or what do you 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:34.800 wish you had to offer. Are you in med school 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:37.719 or have other first aid or medical experience, Maybe you 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:39.840 want to plug in with your local street medics. Are 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:42.760 you studying law? Movement lawyers need paralegal help, and there 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:44.960 are groups that use volunteers to get people out of 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:48.720 jail or through difficult court cases. If graphic design is 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:51.240 your passion, this is me referencing a meme from a 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:56.880 million years ago and totally winning people over. Every group 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:00.440 that exists needs help with their flyers or Instagram slideshows. 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:00.800 Or whatever the fuck. 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:02.560 That is certainly the case. 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:05.279 Yeah, No, it's it's funny too, right, because it's like 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.080 it's one of those things where if you do graphic design, 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:10.200 you sort of think like, oh, everyone sort of does 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:12.520 this or whatever, right, And then I've been part of 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:15.800 groups where people are like, no one knows how to 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:17.840 do this at all, and everything is that we make 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:18.760 as garbage, you know. 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:22.320 Yeah, although there is actually a careful needle to thread 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:26.719 in this vein, because if you've had enough experience, you 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:31.279 can kind of figure out what type of action it's 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.520 gonna be based on how well designed and the flyer is. 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.120 Yeah, and which way. If it's kind of corporate well designed, 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:41.000 it's like gonna tie into electoral politics and be boring. 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:45.160 But if it's hip and well designed, it's a riot. 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:46.040 Well. 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:49.919 Sometimes there's sometimes there's some like very like well designed 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:53.719 flyers that are not like very electoral, but they're like, okay, 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:55.400 this will be a marge, will be some speeches, we'll 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:57.000 kind of walk around a little bit, because it's like 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:01.400 a very well potad flyer versus when you have like 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:05.400 a white background of big block attacks, maybe one poorly 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:09.200 cropped picture, you're like, okay, this is obviously a riot flyer. 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:10.480 Yeah, okay, okay. 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:14.840 It takes a degree of subtlety to get the instincttional 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:18.080 difference when you're looking at a collection of flyers that 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:18.720 are going out. 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:19.240 No. 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:19.600 See. 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:22.320 This is interesting to me because in like about fifteen 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:26.200 years ago, the like the people throwing the best riots 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.000 were like a bunch of graphic designers, and so it 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:37.160 was the specific anymore. Yeah, okay, okay, Well you know, 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:41.080 and actually, as a good graphic designer knows the language 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:43.720 that they are speaking with and that is what they're communicating, 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:47.920 So that might be what you want to do is 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:51.120 get involved in making the flyers. If you spend all 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:53.320 day on Twitter. A lot of activist groups can't find 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:55.040 someone to run their social media, or they have people 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:59.840 who run it very badly. Sometimes being an extrovert is 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:03.600 a superpower. Building strong movements means building strong communities, and 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.440 every meeting and party needs someone willing to introduce themselves 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:08.160 to the new people and help them figure out where 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:11.200 to go. The best activist meetings I've ever been to 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:14.120 have like someone who's there to sit next to new 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:18.720 people and explain what's going on. Also, if you can 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:21.120 plan a party, you can plan a benefit show to 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:23.600 raise money for bail funds. There's kind of this like 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:25.280 like whenever I talk about this, like oh, everyone has 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:27.480 their place, and people are like, why don't I'm a 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.600 fucking bookkeeper, and I'm like, oh my god, we need you, 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:33.440 or like, you know, all kinds of different skill sets 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:39.000 that people like don't think apply actually do project manager. Yeah, 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:42.240 we're we're not all instinctively good at that, you know. 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:45.120 And so the quickest way to sum this part of 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:46.960 it up is you think about what's wrong, and you 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:48.880 think about what you're good at, and then you get 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:51.240 together with other people and apply what you're good at 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.559 to stopping what's wrong. That is the like one sentence 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.079 version of how to start getting involved in making the 0:08:57.120 --> 0:08:59.839 world better. But the last part of it that I 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:04.880 I want the question of it beforehand is risk analysis. 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.040 It is very easy to get swept up in the 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:10.560 moment and go beyond your comfort zone in terms of 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:13.920 risk in a lot of different environments. The more you 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.520 have sorted out ahead of time about what kinds of 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:20.959 actions you're comfortable with strategically, morally, and personally, the easier 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.880 it is to stick to your decisions when things get hard. 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:30.160 For example, you might tell yourself I will risk arrest, 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.280 but I will not get arrested on purpose because I 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:35.480 have a massage license I don't want to lose. Or 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:38.040 I have kids at home, or I'm undocumented, or I 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:40.960 don't like the idea of jail. Whatever your reason is, 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:44.079 there's plenty of reasons to make that decision. You might 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:46.600 be willing to risk arrest, like be in a hectic riot, 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:48.920 but you're not willing to lock your neck to a bulldozer. 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:51.240 So when you go to the planning meeting for the 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:54.000 lock your neck to a bulldozer action and you're trying 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:55.559 to figure out who wants to lock their neck to 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.480 the bulldozer. You've already made up your mind, and you're 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.880 less likely to kind of pressure your self into volunteering. 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:03.480 Or feel pressured by others. 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:08.360 Yeah, I'm imagining the positive version. Well, okay, because it's 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:12.120 very rarely someone's like, hey, gear been a while since 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.600 you locked your neck to anything, and it's usually more like, man, 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:18.120 it just sure would be good if someone was bold 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:23.960 and noble enough to just step up right now and 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:28.560 then yeah, yeah, I mean I've organized some of my 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:32.880 friends arrests before, and it's it's not always. That's not 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:34.920 always the strategy that people want to be doing anyway. 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:36.840 I'm just using this as an example, like what kind 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:40.400 of Earth first style thing? If you know what your 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.839 risk models are, you can make better decisions. Maybe you're 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:46.079 fine with a spirited march, but as soon as windows 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:49.040 start getting broken, you're like, you know, I want to leave. 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:51.560 That's gonna not be my scene. You know, I'm not 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:54.079 mad that the people did it, but it's not what 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:59.160 I am willing to get arrested in response to it's 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:01.319 also important to know your risk levels, which kind of 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:05.440 course shift because there are predators in the ranks of 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.320 direct action activists. I don't know if you knew this, 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:10.959 gre there's a shadowy, unaccountable group that tries to get 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:13.800 people to break laws. They're called the FEDS. They're called 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:17.959 the FBI. They have a history going back decades and 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:20.160 then trapping people by coming up with bomb plots or 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:21.679 ur some plots or whatever. And we're not going to 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:24.600 go into this in depth in this episode, but if 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:26.520 you want to do more research, people should look up. 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:28.920 They should read about co intel pro it's an acronym, 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:32.120 or read about the case of Eric McDavid, or read 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:34.640 about how the FBI set up Muslim Americans in the 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:38.839 wake of nine to eleven. But another thing you should 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:42.760 go into all this knowing is that that doesn't mean 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:44.400 that everyone who wants to do those kinds of actions 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:46.040 is working with the FEDS. 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:50.120 Yeah, and you shouldn't go around accusing everyone you don't 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:52.800 like of possibly being a secret and federal agent. 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:57.000 Because you know who likes accusing people of being federal agents. Yeah, 0:11:57.040 --> 0:12:01.600 And also our sponsors they don't they don't they're all great. 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.520 They might, they might, I don't know. I can't really 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:06.600 speak to them, but here they are, they can speak 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:20.240 to you, and we're back. That is a thing that 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:23.520 is absolutely worth anyone who's getting involved in activism, especially 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.880 direct action activism, including above grounds of this obedient style action. 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:31.400 It is really worth understanding the ways in which federal 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:35.000 oppression works, and how federal oppression works often by the 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:38.320 fear of federal oppression and getting people to spread paranoia. 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:43.319 And so as a general rule, the way that I've 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.240 always heard it talked about is that it's like you 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:48.199 never want to be like, hey, I think that guy's 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:52.280 a fed. Instead you're like, hey, guy, that kind of 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:57.000 behavior is disruptive and leads towards bad things, you know, 0:12:57.600 --> 0:12:59.440 Like yeah. 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.240 And I think I even have some hesitation to just 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:04.680 be like you should just just go google co intel 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:06.480 pro and learn all about it, because I feel like 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:08.840 that can also lead to someone kind of falling down 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:12.640 like some conspiracy brained rabbit holes, and like I've gotten 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:17.800 the best information by just talking to older people who've 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:20.320 like been in the movement for a while, and like 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:22.920 just like if someone has like over ten years of experience, 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.160 and they're like, you can learn a lot about what 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:29.520 has happened before through just like actual, like in person conversations. 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.320 And I found that to be much more useful than 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.839 just like going down like a Google rabbit hole, because 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:37.520 that can just kind of lead to I think slightly 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:40.040 even slightly more like paranoid thinking or just it just 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:42.560 becomes like less applicable than like, Hey, you have like 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.320 a friend of a friend who's like done this for 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.360 a while, and you just ask, hey, like what if 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:50.040 what do you know about this sort of thing? Now 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:52.560 you're right, what are your experiences of kind of of 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:56.120 facing like repression in the past. The true chances are 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:59.480 some of them will probably know people who've either turned 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:03.200 out to be like informants, has started informing, or we're 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:05.320 bad actors from the from the get go, like it's 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:08.040 it does, it does happen. And there's even been case 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:10.160 it's not even just stuff from ten fifteen years ago. 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:12.520 There's a lot of that stuff post twenty twenty. Some 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:16.200 really some stuff in h in Chicago, some stuff in 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:19.840 Colorado Springs have gotten decent news coverage. I think you 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:22.360 can also you can look to articles specifically of the 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:26.560 Colorado Springs infiltration that that that the FBI was running 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.120 around twenty twenty. I think that's a really useful case 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.600 study for a more recent version as opposed to like 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.240 the green scare stuff from at this point like twenty 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:34.760 years ago. 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.040 No, No, it's true, and there's a good there's actually 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:41.040 a good podcast series where I liked it called Alphabet Boys. 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:43.960 The first season is about that case. No, that's a 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:46.720 good point that you that random internet search is not 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:48.840 the way to get this kind of information, this information 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:52.160 like you'll Honestly, it's kind of funny. I would trust 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.600 a random zine in a radical bookstore far more than 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:58.720 I would trust a Google search result, agreed, which is 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:04.480 not true for everything like healthcare. Well, you're gonna get 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:05.480 shit answers no. 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:06.600 Matter what if you do that. 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:09.520 Yes, yes, the internet is gonna tell you have cancer, 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:11.360 and the zine's going to tell you that tea tree 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:12.160 oil will fix it. 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:13.800 Yes, there we go. 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:15.000 Yeah. 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.600 Yeah, No, that is actually a very good point, and 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:19.480 it is the kind of thing that Yeah, the longer 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:21.520 you're involved, the more you're just like, oh, yeah, the 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:27.000 you know my ex who's a snitch that sucks? Yeah, 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:31.280 you know Anyway, now you have what you care about, 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:33.360 what your skills are, and your risk analysis, it's time 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:37.320 to get started. How there's two basic ways, and they're 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:41.000 not really a dichotomy, but you can plug into something 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.360 that exists and you can start something of your own, 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:46.960 and both are valid and both have advantages and disadvantages. 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:50.440 There are structures and movements that are already in place 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:54.640 that are desperate for your help. There's a catch. Many, 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:58.800 not all, but many of the more reasonable groups are 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:02.440 challenging to break into. Very few groups have a truly 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:09.280 open door policy, and those that do honestly sometimes or suspect. Yeah, 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:11.480 some of those people are just trying to use you. 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:14.280 They're trying to suck you into a political political cult 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:16.960 or use your energy and burn you out for some 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:22.800 vaguely progressive politician or activist cause. So either way, you're 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:24.680 going to need to exercise some common sense and do 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:28.520 some reading and research about what you're getting into. The 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:31.360 best publicly accessible groups and movements are the ones that 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:35.000 are organized from the bottom up, because the participants themselves 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:37.800 have a say in what's happening. There is less ability 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:40.240 to be sucked into a cult and used. That's not 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:42.520 to say it's impossible, and there are such things as 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:44.800 decentralized cults that don't do any you. 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:46.160 Know, many such cases. 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:50.440 Yeah, but I know it's easy and convenient to join 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:52.320 a group that'll just tell you what to do. It's 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:54.920 very nice to imagine that there's benevolent people who will 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:56.760 just do the hard part of making decisions and you 0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:58.680 can just show up and clock in and listen to 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:00.640 what they have to say and make the world better place. 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:05.000 This is rarely, if ever the case. I can't point 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:09.520 to examples of it being the case. Movements that maintain 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:13.560 everyone's autonomy instead, I think are what are interesting, and 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:17.120 they often do it by not being a group at all, 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:21.040 just a movement. The uprisings of twenty twenty, I think 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:24.800 are a brilliant example of this. There's not the group 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:26.800 that organized, no, but. 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:29.760 There's a lot of smaller, smaller groups, whether that be 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:34.240 some like informal organizations, formal organizations, or just like groups 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.160 of friends that it's made up of a whole bunch 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:39.639 of these smaller groups. And I think a lot of 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:43.960 times the best case scenario in many cases is if 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:45.800 you have like a friend or too because you shouldn't 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:47.399 really show it to things alone, I would say, but 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:49.159 if you have a friend or two, go with the 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:52.040 friender too. Just like just go to things. And if 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:54.119 you go to enough things and people see you, you 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.960 can chat with people, you can start learning more about 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.920 kind of what the different mechanisms in each different city, 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:04.080 each each even't seen how how they operate. It's it's 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:05.600 it's it's kind of silly just to be like, no, 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:07.159 you just like have to like show up. But like 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:08.879 that is kind of a lot of how it works. 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:14.639 You'll maybe hear about a Instagram account that posts flyers 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:18.159 for semi weekly like picnics organized by some of these 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:20.000 same people, and then you can go to events like 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:23.239 that and learn to like socialize. And it really just 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.480 does require a degree of just showing up. And you 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:27.560 shouldn't go by yourself. You should if you you should 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:30.080 ideally have a friend or two that you that is 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:32.280 that they would be okay going with you. But then 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.400 you'll you'll find people to connect with and you'll kind 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:36.080 of maybe find a different group of people that you 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.320 want to start hanging out with more. And I think 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:40.760 in general that's kind of how the best case scenario works, 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:43.400 as opposed to like joining like a big above ground 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:45.840 organization which is just going to use your body as 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:48.879 a tool to get arrested as or just treat you 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:51.359 as disposable or in other cases just be actually kind 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:52.080 of like abuse of. 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:54.720 I agree with that, and that's some of that we're 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.399 going to get into also. But yeah, no, and I 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:00.880 will say overall, absolutely it is better to do those 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:05.840 things with friends. I didn't I started going to things alone. 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:08.080 That has something to do with my temperament, and that 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.000 has something to do with my social standing when I 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.359 was in college and decided to get involved in the movement. 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:19.640 But overall, that is the best practice. But if you're 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:21.399 listening to this and you're like, I don't have friends 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:23.560 I can go do this stuff with, there are more 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:27.800 risks involved, and you're also kind of stuck. You're going 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:29.080 to go to a lot of things where no one 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:31.680 will talk to you, yeah, you know, and you can't 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:35.679 necessarily expect that people talk to you immediately or like, 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:37.719 and you're going to have to be a little bit 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:38.680 more self motivated. 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:41.199 Yeah, And if you're going to a zine fair, you 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:44.200 can chow some people at like the tables when you're 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:46.919 looking for a zine. It's like it's, yeah, now everyone's 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:49.800 going to want to get into a deep personal conversation 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:52.240 with a stranger they met at an event like this 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:54.639 because it also has like security risks. But yeah, I 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:56.280 mean it's it's going to require a little bit of 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:00.600 uncomfortable social interactions, which for yeah, for someone like you 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:02.520 or me who did go to a lot of these 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:05.320 things just by ourselves, you know, it just it just 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:06.400 kind of takes more time. 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:09.800 No, totally. And I think actually ze fairs and things 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:11.720 like that and anarchist book fairs and all that are 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:14.800 like really good examples of places that are publicly facing 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:18.840 that are designed for people to interact with each other. 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:21.520 And also, like one of the main pieces of advice 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:24.240 that we we have is be brave, right, and we 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:29.280 talk about that in terms of like street actions, but like, yeah, okay, 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:35.639 also social anxiety exactly exactly, because how much of so 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:38.639 social anxiety will become like an inhibiting factor similar to 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:41.159 like the state not saying these things are equal, but 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:43.480 they can both like inhibit you from doing things, and 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:45.240 it's both you can you can kind of approach it 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:47.920 via similar means of trying to like overcome this thing 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:53.879 that is limiting your autonomy. Yeah, no, totally. So to 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:57.720 go back to if you're joining an existing group, some 0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:01.119 groups maintain everyone's autonomy by being struck horizontally. Some groups 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:04.240 that exist as a structure will do it by being 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:07.240 structured horizontally. If you found yourself for go ahead, claim 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:10.600 to be structured horizontally as well. No, it's true, but 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:13.080 like like if you join a local Earth First chapter, 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.680 you're going to find there's absolutely informal hierarchies that exist 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:18.600 within these things, and they're like worth being aware of. 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:21.959 But the decision about who's going to lock their neck 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:24.800 to the bulldozer is going to involve everyone who might 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:26.119 lock their neck to the bulldozer. 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:28.840 Yeah, it's not the same as like the DSA or 0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:31.720 the PSL, Like it's it's going to be a very 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:35.040 different organizational structure. 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:40.040 Yeah exactly, And so you know you want to be 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:42.200 part of the decision making about locking your neck to 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:44.200 a bulldozer because it's your neck on the line. That's 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:47.480 my best joke in the whole script. I'm sorry, we'll 0:21:47.480 --> 0:22:01.399 just move past it quickly. Thanks. Plugging into an existing 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:05.160 project is often a good first step. What I did personally. 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:07.680 I started showing up to the meetings of this radical 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:11.240 media project, Indie Media. I had film skills, and soon 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:14.000 enough I found myself in the film collective. I spent 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:16.600 a year or two bouncing around from demonstration to demonstration, 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:19.920 coordinating with all the radical videographers to collect everyone's footage 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:23.160 and edit together news videos about what had happened, while 0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:27.120 we collectively fostered a culture of like respectful riot videography. 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:30.280 I did not realize we had that similar background. 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:33.879 Oh yeah, no, that it's interesting because I don't. I 0:22:33.920 --> 0:22:36.359 don't do that stuff anymore. But that was like my 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:37.880 thing for a long time. 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:40.879 Me either, actually, But no, I did not realize we 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:43.600 had we had that, we had that overlap. 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:47.520 Yeah, no, and it was It was great and it 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:50.159 was fun and we you know, we taught how to 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:54.360 not film people's faces. We coordinated runners where in order 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:56.720 to get footage out before the cops could get it. 0:22:56.760 --> 0:22:59.879 We'd make sure everyone, you know, someone, every videographer had 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.199 someone next to them, like ready to run out of 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:03.280 the situation. 0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:05.639 Take this SD card and run yep, exactly. 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:09.399 And I started off by joining an existing group that 0:23:09.520 --> 0:23:11.199 was doing this, but within a few months I was 0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:14.120 doing it independently and coordinating with different groups that came 0:23:14.160 --> 0:23:16.760 together at all these different summit protests because I was 0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:20.879 a known entity to people. You know, it was fun. 0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:23.200 I dropped out of school where I've been studying film 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:27.040 and photography, and even before I would have graduated, a 0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:29.640 film I had edited sold out a movie theater in Portland. 0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:32.240 We didn't have YouTube, so we organized in person. 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:34.400 Kate, that makes sense, Yeah, yeah. 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:39.439 Yeah yeah. When when we shut the city down on 0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:42.920 like March twentieth or whatever, twenty two thousand and three 0:23:43.359 --> 0:23:46.600 for to try and stop the Iraq war, I like 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:50.760 didn't sleep and just edited everyone's film footage together and 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:53.119 made a like thirty minute documentary about the day of 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:57.399 protest and sold out a movie theater. And I was like, damn, 0:23:57.400 --> 0:23:59.240 this was way better for my career than going to 0:23:59.280 --> 0:24:02.600 fuck it stay it's school. I mean, like, my name 0:24:02.640 --> 0:24:05.000 isn't on it, but that like didn't matter to me. Sure, 0:24:05.560 --> 0:24:07.960 And then everyone the local news media got really mad 0:24:07.960 --> 0:24:11.080 because I didn't include the stuff that could have been 0:24:11.200 --> 0:24:13.440 used in people's court cases, like the time that people 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:15.920 attack cops on the bridge, because I was like, nope, 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:19.280 that's too recent. We don't know what's happening there anyway, 0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:22.919 And getting into certain types of groups is kind of 0:24:22.960 --> 0:24:25.800 like applying for a shitty job. A job that'll take 0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:27.680 you without reference is going to treat you like shit. 0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:30.399 But jobs that are worth having require you to somehow 0:24:30.400 --> 0:24:32.439 have already been doing the job before you got hired, 0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:35.399 and once people know who you are, it's easier to 0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:37.439 find folks who work with And I think gear Suggestions 0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:40.159 is like the main way you go about that is 0:24:40.160 --> 0:24:43.200 you don't necessarily show up to organize. You just show 0:24:43.280 --> 0:24:45.440 up to participate. You show up to talks, you show 0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:49.480 up to radical bookstores and public events and zine fairs 0:24:49.520 --> 0:24:53.960 and protests and whatever interests you you know. And I 0:24:53.960 --> 0:24:56.040 would say that if you're going to actions and you're new, 0:24:56.200 --> 0:24:58.560 remember to be both brave and cautious. If you tend 0:24:58.600 --> 0:25:01.760 towards recklessness and being so wept into things, maybe make 0:25:01.800 --> 0:25:03.800 sure you take less of a frontline's role until you 0:25:03.800 --> 0:25:06.639 get your legs underneath you. But it really is okay 0:25:06.680 --> 0:25:08.440 to be brave. I think we're asked by the times 0:25:08.480 --> 0:25:10.520 we live in to be brave, and sometimes we're gonna 0:25:10.520 --> 0:25:12.480 have to step outside of our comfort zone. We should 0:25:12.520 --> 0:25:15.520 just always look to make sure it's us encouraging us 0:25:15.560 --> 0:25:18.720 to step outside of our comfort zone instead of political 0:25:18.760 --> 0:25:22.080 actors whatever political ideology they call themselves. 0:25:22.720 --> 0:25:26.399 And also if you can another collective that people you know, 0:25:26.440 --> 0:25:29.080 these are like usually like medic collectives will maybe maybe 0:25:29.119 --> 0:25:31.359 we'll have like a radical media collective and another another 0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:33.760 one will be a jail support collective is very common 0:25:33.800 --> 0:25:36.960 a lot of cities, and not even if you don't 0:25:36.960 --> 0:25:38.600 want to take part in that, if you can at 0:25:38.680 --> 0:25:40.359 least get in touch with them to fill out a 0:25:40.440 --> 0:25:43.240 jail support form before going to things. That will also 0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:46.320 be useful in case you do end up getting arrested, 0:25:46.359 --> 0:25:48.000 so people can actually find you in the system and 0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:52.320 help you get out of get out. Just another quick tip, 0:25:52.400 --> 0:25:53.520 I suppose. 0:25:53.240 --> 0:25:55.880 Yeah, And if you want more quick tips, I've got 0:25:55.920 --> 0:26:10.119 some for you right now and we're back. Don't do 0:26:10.240 --> 0:26:12.440 anything that you just got told by voices that aren't 0:26:12.480 --> 0:26:13.280 me or there. 0:26:13.520 --> 0:26:15.800 They were trying to saihap you it is it is 0:26:15.920 --> 0:26:18.320 the yeah yeah. 0:26:18.359 --> 0:26:20.879 Another way that you might get involved in something is 0:26:20.920 --> 0:26:23.480 you Some groups are semi open where you can contact 0:26:23.480 --> 0:26:25.760 them and express interest and they might do some basic 0:26:25.800 --> 0:26:28.240 screening to make sure you're not like a Nazi infiltrator 0:26:28.320 --> 0:26:30.360 or whatever. I'm in the process right now of doing 0:26:30.359 --> 0:26:32.320 that with clinic escorting. It's like funny because I haven't 0:26:32.359 --> 0:26:34.639 had to like prove myself to any group in a 0:26:34.640 --> 0:26:37.479 long time, right because I'm like I've been around forever. 0:26:38.200 --> 0:26:39.919 The clinic escorting group, it's like, we don't fucking know 0:26:39.920 --> 0:26:41.760 who you are, like, and I'm like, yeah, that's fair, 0:26:42.280 --> 0:26:45.960 give me, yeah, no, absolutely. I live in a place 0:26:46.040 --> 0:26:48.760 is not where abortion is not particularly popular with the 0:26:48.840 --> 0:26:50.560 right wing, and so I submitted my name and social 0:26:50.600 --> 0:26:54.760 media accounts to the to the abortion clinic escorting place, 0:26:55.640 --> 0:26:57.320 and then we'll go to a training at some point 0:26:57.359 --> 0:27:01.199 soon for folks living in southern California or willing to 0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:03.520 go there. For example, there are groups that do border 0:27:03.520 --> 0:27:06.120 solidarity working with refugees to make sure they're fed in house. 0:27:06.160 --> 0:27:08.960 If you listen to this podcast, you've heard James talking 0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:10.840 about this, and this is the first episode you've listened to, 0:27:10.920 --> 0:27:12.600 in which case, go back and listen to James talking 0:27:12.600 --> 0:27:16.080 about border solidarity work. If you want to show up 0:27:16.200 --> 0:27:19.720 and distribute food and water, track border patrol activity, build shelters, 0:27:19.760 --> 0:27:22.240 do first DAID, all of that. Feel like you're part 0:27:22.240 --> 0:27:24.760 of something because you are and are like saving people's 0:27:24.760 --> 0:27:28.800 lives directly, that's something you can likely get involved with, 0:27:29.320 --> 0:27:32.199 but it's not something you just show up at. There 0:27:32.240 --> 0:27:34.480 are a few groups doing that work, any of whom 0:27:34.760 --> 0:27:38.000 you can reach out to and express interest. There's border Kindness, 0:27:38.080 --> 0:27:42.000 there's Borderlands Relief Collective and Al Ultra Lado, and there's 0:27:42.040 --> 0:27:43.879 other groups like this in different areas. But these are 0:27:43.880 --> 0:27:46.600 the examples where I asked James being like, Hey, how 0:27:46.600 --> 0:27:52.320 do I explain the following concept? In general, you want 0:27:52.320 --> 0:27:54.959 to look for groups. If you're looking for groups, you 0:27:55.000 --> 0:27:57.720 want to look for groups that are grassroots and non authoritarian. 0:27:58.080 --> 0:28:00.240 You want to watch out for electoral campaigns, and you 0:28:00.240 --> 0:28:02.399 want to watch out for nonprofits. This is not to 0:28:02.440 --> 0:28:05.200 say that the people doing these things are necessarily bad. 0:28:05.960 --> 0:28:08.439 There are local political campaigns that matter, and there are 0:28:08.440 --> 0:28:10.800 nonprofits that do good work. Some of the best political 0:28:10.840 --> 0:28:13.360 work I ever did was two years out a nonprofit, honestly, 0:28:13.400 --> 0:28:15.600 but I got I was with one of the good ones. 0:28:16.480 --> 0:28:21.640 And structurally those systems, even the good ones, are set 0:28:21.760 --> 0:28:23.959 up to take advantage of people's energy and then like 0:28:24.520 --> 0:28:28.160 kind of profit off of it, right, and to accomplish 0:28:28.240 --> 0:28:31.399 goals that are often tangential to or even counter to 0:28:31.440 --> 0:28:35.359 the goals that they claim. For example, both politicians and 0:28:35.440 --> 0:28:39.640 nonprofits live off of donations. These donations are easy for 0:28:39.680 --> 0:28:43.200 them to get when those groups are seen as necessary, 0:28:43.560 --> 0:28:46.800 so a nonprofit has a financial interest in not winning. 0:28:47.720 --> 0:28:51.360 Some nonprofits manage to maintain their focus and make themselves 0:28:51.400 --> 0:28:56.840 work to make themselves obsolete, but frankly those are the minority. 0:28:57.480 --> 0:28:59.080 You also want to look out for groups that are 0:28:59.120 --> 0:29:01.800 front groups for thor tearing. Groups attached to communist political 0:29:01.880 --> 0:29:04.240 parties you mentioned earlier, like the PSL the Party for 0:29:04.280 --> 0:29:09.600 Socialism and Liberation. Generally speaking, these groups will go to 0:29:09.640 --> 0:29:12.840 protests and run events, primarily as a way to recruit 0:29:12.880 --> 0:29:16.760 people into a hierarchical structure. These groups are often trying 0:29:16.800 --> 0:29:19.800 to control broader movements that they're involved in. They'll tell 0:29:19.840 --> 0:29:22.640 people how they can and can't protest, and they're trying 0:29:22.680 --> 0:29:29.080 to essentially own movements that were built by others. So 0:29:29.120 --> 0:29:32.960 those are things to be careful around. You can also 0:29:33.000 --> 0:29:35.160 just not worry about any of that stuff and start 0:29:35.200 --> 0:29:40.360 something yourself. It is not the easy mode to get 0:29:40.360 --> 0:29:42.240 into the movement by starting your own projects. We're going 0:29:42.280 --> 0:29:43.960 to talk about afinity groups later. Actually it was the 0:29:43.960 --> 0:29:45.600 thing that you kind of started to bring up. But 0:29:45.640 --> 0:29:48.720 it is very rewarding to start your own projects. It's 0:29:48.760 --> 0:29:50.960 like freelancing instead of looking for a job. There's no 0:29:51.040 --> 0:29:53.600 gatekeepers to cross, and the only person who's trying to 0:29:53.640 --> 0:29:56.880 take advantage of you is you. If you want to 0:29:57.080 --> 0:29:59.720 never not be working another day in your life, you 0:29:59.760 --> 0:30:04.160 can freelance or start your own political project. It'll be 0:30:04.160 --> 0:30:09.560 what you think about every hour you're alive. In essence, 0:30:10.040 --> 0:30:12.320 the idea here is to say, okay, what's wrong and 0:30:12.360 --> 0:30:13.880 what are we willing to do about it, and then 0:30:13.920 --> 0:30:16.840 get together with your friends and start doing something about it. 0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:19.120 This can look like anything. 0:30:19.640 --> 0:30:20.080 You could start. 0:30:20.080 --> 0:30:22.840 A mutual aid group, a radical bookstore, an anti fascist 0:30:22.920 --> 0:30:26.080 gym to trained to defend yourself from fascists, illegal HRT 0:30:26.200 --> 0:30:29.880 distribution in band States, a direct action abortion collective, a 0:30:29.960 --> 0:30:32.320 zine distributor that goes to shows and parties with free 0:30:32.320 --> 0:30:35.320 literature about anarchism. A podcast about how things fall apart 0:30:35.360 --> 0:30:37.880 and how to put them back together again. A click 0:30:37.960 --> 0:30:40.840 of saboteurs who attack billboards, a group that draws attention 0:30:40.880 --> 0:30:44.080 to international movement prisoners, and support them like you can 0:30:44.120 --> 0:30:47.480 do anything. And that's one of the things that people. 0:30:48.320 --> 0:30:50.240 Our society is designed to tell us that we can't 0:30:50.320 --> 0:30:52.400 just do anything we want. There's obviously things that if 0:30:52.440 --> 0:30:54.000 we do, we'll get in trouble eventually. 0:30:55.160 --> 0:30:58.560 But like you know, okay, like like if you make 0:30:58.600 --> 0:31:01.600 a podcast that's too good, Yeah, they will, they will 0:31:01.600 --> 0:31:06.840 turn on you like Jesus, Yeah exactly. Or if you 0:31:06.880 --> 0:31:10.240 go around, you know, wanting to destroy construction equipment. 0:31:10.160 --> 0:31:14.480 Right, not usually legal. I'm not a lawyer. I can't 0:31:14.520 --> 0:31:17.600 tell you whether or not any given bulldozer is illegal 0:31:17.600 --> 0:31:20.640 to destroy. That is the kind of research you might 0:31:20.680 --> 0:31:23.560 have to do on your own. The difference between start 0:31:23.640 --> 0:31:26.680 something and enjoining something is often blurry. For example, you 0:31:26.760 --> 0:31:30.520 can unionize your workplace. You probably should, but you might 0:31:30.560 --> 0:31:32.280 want to do that in the context of an existing 0:31:32.440 --> 0:31:34.960 union like the Industrial Workers of the World or whatever 0:31:35.080 --> 0:31:37.200 union makes the most sense where the writer's field of America, 0:31:37.320 --> 0:31:40.160 Yeah exactly. If you have a podcast, but how the 0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:41.000 world's falling apart? 0:31:41.080 --> 0:31:42.160 Yeah, yeah exactly. 0:31:44.000 --> 0:31:46.360 If you're going to start something above ground, it's worth 0:31:46.360 --> 0:31:48.680 looking around and making sure that the need isn't already 0:31:48.720 --> 0:31:49.680 being met by someone else. 0:31:49.720 --> 0:31:50.120 Already. 0:31:50.440 --> 0:31:52.160 Sometimes it's better to figure out how to help an 0:31:52.160 --> 0:31:56.160 existing bail fund rather than start another. But also sometimes 0:31:56.200 --> 0:31:58.800 it is better to start another, like it's harder for 0:31:58.840 --> 0:32:00.960 the police tarrade, for example, which didn't used to be 0:32:01.040 --> 0:32:04.480 an issue when you start bail funds, but is now 0:32:04.520 --> 0:32:08.400 an issue, which is worth pointing out that like there's 0:32:08.440 --> 0:32:12.200 no true safety, you know, like when we talk about 0:32:12.240 --> 0:32:18.080 risk analysis, like running a bail fund is entirely legal 0:32:18.760 --> 0:32:22.360 and is the kind of thing that often is done 0:32:22.400 --> 0:32:24.960 by the people who care about a movement and are 0:32:25.000 --> 0:32:27.280 like not frontlines people. 0:32:27.720 --> 0:32:31.960 Yeah, aren't wanting to do felonies in downtown right Portland 0:32:32.120 --> 0:32:32.640 or whatever. 0:32:32.800 --> 0:32:37.440 Yeah, the more successful a movement is the broader. The 0:32:37.480 --> 0:32:40.720 state repression will reach out to the fringes, not the fringe. 0:32:40.720 --> 0:32:42.160 I mean, the bail fund isn't the fringe, but the 0:32:42.720 --> 0:32:46.960 less privery. The people who aren't committing the felon felonies. Yeah, 0:32:47.120 --> 0:32:49.760 are going to get tagged with felonies anyway, because the 0:32:49.760 --> 0:32:53.080 state being repressive is the reason we're fighting it. 0:32:53.800 --> 0:32:56.120 They will still get their houses rated. And it's the 0:32:56.120 --> 0:32:58.080 same same thing ad demos. You don't need to be 0:32:58.120 --> 0:33:01.480 the one breaking windows for the least to tackle you, Like, 0:33:02.000 --> 0:33:04.720 at a certain point, it actually doesn't. It seems to 0:33:05.160 --> 0:33:08.920 matter very little. I mean, if things get to trial, 0:33:09.000 --> 0:33:11.240 then things you know will maybe matter a bit more. 0:33:11.360 --> 0:33:14.800 But in like how police display the power of the state, 0:33:14.920 --> 0:33:19.160 Like out in the open world, it really doesn't matter 0:33:19.200 --> 0:33:21.479 if you're holding a sign or you're holding a hammer 0:33:21.720 --> 0:33:24.160 when you're getting tackled from behind by a big man 0:33:24.240 --> 0:33:24.680 with a gun. 0:33:24.800 --> 0:33:27.800 Yeah, totally, which is why it's like kind of worth. 0:33:27.880 --> 0:33:29.760 I mean that's like almost like what the the answer 0:33:29.840 --> 0:33:33.480 to that is like solidarity, and by recognizing that to 0:33:33.520 --> 0:33:35.360 a certain degree, if you were at a protest and 0:33:35.400 --> 0:33:39.120 people are breaking windows and it's like, okay, well now 0:33:39.160 --> 0:33:42.520 we're all in danger together. And if that is a 0:33:42.600 --> 0:33:46.680 danger beyond what you particularly feel like exposing yourself to, 0:33:46.760 --> 0:33:50.920 that is probably the time to depart. Another pitfall to 0:33:51.000 --> 0:33:55.520 avoid if you're starting your own thing. Any group that 0:33:55.600 --> 0:33:57.800 involves money will at some point have someone from that 0:33:57.840 --> 0:34:01.840 group steal the money. 0:34:00.560 --> 0:34:05.080 Including bail funds. Unfortunately, it does, It does happen, and 0:34:05.200 --> 0:34:05.760 it sucks. 0:34:05.880 --> 0:34:06.320 Yeah. 0:34:06.520 --> 0:34:10.280 I have lost count of the number of times someone 0:34:10.760 --> 0:34:13.800 who was an organizer has stolen all of the money 0:34:13.840 --> 0:34:18.239 from this or that thing, and that's because capitalism puts 0:34:18.280 --> 0:34:21.959 people in absolutely weird and terrible positions. Right, It's still 0:34:21.960 --> 0:34:24.040 not okay for people to steal the bail fund, and 0:34:24.080 --> 0:34:28.720 we should stop them. But often the people who steal 0:34:28.719 --> 0:34:30.840 the stuff, if they're the organizers, they don't even necessarily 0:34:30.880 --> 0:34:33.120 conceptualize what they did as stealing. They're like, oh, I'm 0:34:33.120 --> 0:34:34.920 gonna pay that back. I don't think anyone needs it 0:34:35.000 --> 0:34:37.880 right now. I just need it for rent. 0:34:38.320 --> 0:34:40.160 In order for the bail fund to continue, I have 0:34:40.200 --> 0:34:42.239 to have stable housing. So we need to use these 0:34:42.440 --> 0:34:43.960 two thousand dollars right now, and. 0:34:43.960 --> 0:34:46.160 Yeah, right without checking with the rest of the group, 0:34:46.239 --> 0:34:52.440 and like, you know, like, and so if there's money involved, 0:34:52.760 --> 0:34:56.160 you should set up some best practices around multiple eyes 0:34:56.200 --> 0:34:58.480 on the money at any given point and making sure 0:34:58.520 --> 0:35:02.560 that it's accountable to the broader group. One organizing model 0:35:02.600 --> 0:35:06.160 that is worth considering is the affinity group. This is 0:35:06.200 --> 0:35:08.480 basically you and some of your closest friends that you 0:35:08.480 --> 0:35:10.960 feel like doing safe with actions with. Whatever the scale 0:35:10.960 --> 0:35:13.040 of actions, you get together with your friends. 0:35:12.960 --> 0:35:16.480 Or people you're not even necessarily like social friends with, 0:35:17.040 --> 0:35:20.720 but people you feel comfortable working with. Because there sometimes 0:35:20.800 --> 0:35:22.319 is a distinction like you said, sometimes you have a 0:35:22.320 --> 0:35:24.960 lot of close friends you don't want in your affinity group, 0:35:24.960 --> 0:35:27.040 and sometimes there's people in your affinity group that you 0:35:27.080 --> 0:35:29.760 may not really want to hang out with like every 0:35:29.800 --> 0:35:32.680 week totally, but they're good to work with. Now, that's 0:35:32.960 --> 0:35:36.040 a really good point. It's about trust rather than like 0:35:36.560 --> 0:35:40.400 getting along with sometimes. You know, Yeah, it might function 0:35:40.480 --> 0:35:43.040 better if you know you don't all hate each other, ah, 0:35:43.520 --> 0:35:47.040 have some affinity. Yeah, yes, you know, but perhaps you 0:35:47.080 --> 0:35:48.840 have a shared affinity within the group. 0:35:49.600 --> 0:35:50.120 Ideally. 0:35:50.280 --> 0:35:54.200 Yeah, it is. If you're in a riot, whether by 0:35:54.280 --> 0:35:57.440 choice or by accident, you are safer and you can 0:35:57.719 --> 0:35:59.880 feel more comfortable if you are there with two or 0:36:00.080 --> 0:36:03.120 seven of your closest and most trustworthy friends or frenemies. 0:36:04.160 --> 0:36:06.520 These are the people who are the most likely to 0:36:06.520 --> 0:36:08.760 de arrest you. These are the people who are there 0:36:08.760 --> 0:36:11.480 to notice if you are caught and will organize your bail. 0:36:12.360 --> 0:36:14.399 These are the people who will be in direct You'll 0:36:14.400 --> 0:36:16.440 be in direct communication with during the protest, so you 0:36:16.480 --> 0:36:17.880 can coordinate your actions together. 0:36:18.600 --> 0:36:20.600 It's figure out how you want to get into the 0:36:20.680 --> 0:36:22.000 area get out of the area. 0:36:22.719 --> 0:36:28.560 Yeah, And so that's like a going alone is sort 0:36:28.600 --> 0:36:31.360 of expert mode and so you should take fewer risks 0:36:31.360 --> 0:36:34.759 if you go alone until you are good, you know, 0:36:35.320 --> 0:36:40.160 and most people do not prefer and do not are 0:36:40.200 --> 0:36:42.920 not better off going to protest alone. And then the 0:36:42.960 --> 0:36:46.640 final thing kind of tying together the existing groups versus 0:36:46.680 --> 0:36:51.440 whatever else existing protests movements EBB and flow protests are contagious, 0:36:51.520 --> 0:36:53.520 especially when they're rowdy and they show that they take 0:36:53.560 --> 0:36:56.600 themselves seriously enough to not just go along with whatever 0:36:56.640 --> 0:36:59.920 professional protest managers tell them to do, and take them 0:37:00.040 --> 0:37:04.200 seriously enough to resist the police and authorities. It's more 0:37:04.320 --> 0:37:07.160 or less impossible to know which protests like sparks will 0:37:07.160 --> 0:37:09.759 catch a bigger fire. It is good and useful to 0:37:09.880 --> 0:37:13.000 cast sparks and see what catches, or to notice when 0:37:13.000 --> 0:37:15.480 something is starting to spread and to help it spread. 0:37:16.520 --> 0:37:18.520 Like what happened a few weeks ago with the campus stuff, 0:37:18.560 --> 0:37:22.480 right exactly, one or two places really start popping off 0:37:22.520 --> 0:37:25.280 and you're like, hey, I know some people in college 0:37:25.360 --> 0:37:27.879 who are in whatever town I'm in. Maybe we can 0:37:28.200 --> 0:37:28.960 figure something out. 0:37:29.040 --> 0:37:32.520 Yeah, and so's if that was your involvement. And you're like, oh, 0:37:32.640 --> 0:37:36.040 that's not currently happening where I am anymore. What do 0:37:36.080 --> 0:37:38.880 I do next? Things like that will happen again, and 0:37:38.920 --> 0:37:41.680 you can also make things like that happen. Most of 0:37:41.719 --> 0:37:45.920 the time they will not catch. However, sometimes they do, 0:37:46.040 --> 0:37:49.360 and that is like kind of our job in a 0:37:49.360 --> 0:37:51.719 lot of ways, is to organize things and try things 0:37:51.719 --> 0:37:55.880 and see what catches. I'm curious your take. There are 0:37:55.920 --> 0:37:59.760 two political conventions happening this year. The Republican National Convention 0:38:00.120 --> 0:38:03.319 been from July fifteenth to eighteenth, twenty twenty four in Milwaukee, 0:38:04.440 --> 0:38:07.120 and then in August nineteenth to twenty second in Chicago 0:38:07.200 --> 0:38:11.160 is the Democratic National Convention. They're basically always protests at 0:38:11.160 --> 0:38:14.160 these conventions to me, and I'm a little bit out 0:38:14.160 --> 0:38:16.879 of touch with it. There's going to be more this year, Yeah, 0:38:17.040 --> 0:38:20.280 that's what I'm thinking. There certainly will, I think, especially 0:38:20.280 --> 0:38:22.759 at the DNC. I don't have much to say on 0:38:22.800 --> 0:38:27.360 this at this point besides read up on the previous 0:38:27.400 --> 0:38:28.960 ones that have happened. You can go all the way 0:38:29.000 --> 0:38:30.800 back to sixty eight if you want to read about 0:38:31.040 --> 0:38:35.480 Chicago and the DNC, but also like the RNC protests 0:38:35.600 --> 0:38:38.680 from the Iraq War era, I think would be verly 0:38:38.719 --> 0:38:40.680 useful to look at if you want to go back 0:38:40.719 --> 0:38:42.600 to like two thousand and eight and see how those 0:38:42.640 --> 0:38:45.799 protests were. I would just recommend reading up on it. 0:38:45.840 --> 0:38:47.239 I don't really have much else to say on those 0:38:47.239 --> 0:38:47.680 in the moment. 0:38:47.719 --> 0:38:53.040 They're too far out totally to forecast. Yeah, and I yeah, 0:38:53.800 --> 0:38:56.480 that's kind of all I'll say at the moment. 0:38:57.239 --> 0:39:00.120 These will become a recurring. 0:38:59.719 --> 0:39:02.600 Top on this podcast the next few months. 0:39:02.840 --> 0:39:06.799 So yeah, And so keep track of what's happening, and 0:39:06.880 --> 0:39:10.160 get ready to go to what you feel comfortable with, 0:39:10.280 --> 0:39:14.640 and don't be afraid to be brave, but don't let 0:39:14.719 --> 0:39:17.480 anyone trick you into doing stuff that you're not comfortable with. 0:39:18.080 --> 0:39:21.200 But we need you. We're glad you're here. 0:39:22.200 --> 0:39:27.000 Yeah, don't be so down that the school year is 0:39:27.040 --> 0:39:29.439 over and these campus protests only had a few weeks 0:39:29.480 --> 0:39:31.560 to live. I know there were certainly people who were 0:39:31.920 --> 0:39:34.840 really hoping that after we saw you know, what happened 0:39:35.000 --> 0:39:36.880 during April and May, that maybe this would you know, 0:39:36.920 --> 0:39:40.440 trigger things happening off campus around the summer. 0:39:40.480 --> 0:39:41.919 And maybe they still will. 0:39:42.120 --> 0:39:43.400 And at the very least, we have a lot of 0:39:43.400 --> 0:39:48.120 young people listener possibly included, who like experienced their first 0:39:48.360 --> 0:39:53.000 example of like actual state violence like on them, and 0:39:53.040 --> 0:39:56.319 that could be a very radicalizing experience. So yeah, don't 0:39:56.400 --> 0:39:59.600 don't be so down that maybe your occupation didn't go 0:39:59.600 --> 0:40:01.640 as well as you wanted to. Maybe you're protested, and 0:40:02.120 --> 0:40:04.000 but I think there's a lot of lessons to learn 0:40:04.080 --> 0:40:07.640 from what happened the past month, and they will become applicable, 0:40:08.120 --> 0:40:10.799 possibly this summer, possibly two years from now, who knows. 0:40:10.840 --> 0:40:15.239 Like it's hard to say, but yeah, it's Whenever you 0:40:15.280 --> 0:40:17.360 get that first hint of tear gas, you kind of 0:40:17.360 --> 0:40:20.680 become a different person in my opinion, So congratulations to 0:40:20.719 --> 0:40:22.839 everyone who did that. Hopefully didn't get arrested, and if 0:40:22.840 --> 0:40:24.920 you did, hopefully you have a jail support crew that 0:40:25.040 --> 0:40:26.200 is helping you out. 0:40:27.000 --> 0:40:29.320 The other thing that I think that people never really 0:40:30.719 --> 0:40:33.680 recover from isn't the right word. The first time you 0:40:33.719 --> 0:40:39.040 see the police retreat totally, you recognize that this thing 0:40:39.120 --> 0:40:42.200 you have been taught is completely unassailable. The reason they're 0:40:42.239 --> 0:40:45.120 building cop cities is they know they are assailable and 0:40:45.160 --> 0:40:49.480 they want to be less. So well, listen to this podcast, 0:40:49.520 --> 0:40:52.280 and that's the only place you'll ever find anything useful. 0:40:52.400 --> 0:40:53.000 That's the fine. 0:40:53.040 --> 0:40:54.359 I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't say that. 0:40:54.760 --> 0:40:59.480 Yeah, I know, but there are other podcasts that there's 0:40:59.480 --> 0:41:00.959 a lot of books, because there's a lot of zines, 0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:04.480 there's a lot of sketchy noblog sites which may sometimes 0:41:04.480 --> 0:41:08.080 have misinformation and sometimes have good information yay. And you 0:41:08.120 --> 0:41:11.279 could certainly certainly check out Margaret. I've heard that you 0:41:11.600 --> 0:41:16.040 yourself had a few other podcasts what I do well 0:41:16.080 --> 0:41:17.759 if you want to hear a lot of the history 0:41:17.760 --> 0:41:19.640 around some of the stuff we talked about, including like 0:41:19.680 --> 0:41:22.120 the co Intel pro stuff. For example, I run a 0:41:22.120 --> 0:41:24.279 podcast called Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff on this 0:41:24.520 --> 0:41:28.719 very network, cool Zone Media, and you can listen to 0:41:28.719 --> 0:41:31.880 it every Monday and Wednesday. I just finished a very long, 0:41:32.200 --> 0:41:36.080 but I swear entertaining series of episodes about the Russian 0:41:36.160 --> 0:41:39.520 Revolution in the Civil War. I've did an episode about 0:41:39.640 --> 0:41:43.960 the Burglars for Peace who exposed co Intel pro by 0:41:44.040 --> 0:41:46.480 robbing an FBI office in the middle of the night 0:41:46.480 --> 0:41:50.080 in the early seventies, and all kinds of other stories, 0:41:50.719 --> 0:41:52.960 So you can listen to that, or if you want 0:41:53.000 --> 0:41:55.080 to know more about the end of the world. I 0:41:55.200 --> 0:41:57.719 help run a podcast called Live Like the World Is Dying, 0:41:58.160 --> 0:42:05.240 comes out every Friday, and that one is Prepper Butt Community. Yep, 0:42:05.480 --> 0:42:07.759 there were go And I have a book coming out. 0:42:07.840 --> 0:42:09.799 It comes out of September. It's called The Sapling Cage 0:42:09.840 --> 0:42:11.960 and it's going to be kickstarted in June, and if 0:42:12.000 --> 0:42:14.000 you go to Kickstarter you can sign up for announcements 0:42:14.000 --> 0:42:15.800 about that. And it is the best book I've ever written, 0:42:15.840 --> 0:42:18.439 so you all should read it. Very excited to see 0:42:18.440 --> 0:42:20.959 that that does it for us, that it could happen here. 0:42:21.280 --> 0:42:23.200 We will probably see you out there. 0:42:23.280 --> 0:42:23.719 Good luck. 0:42:37.280 --> 0:42:40.600 Welcome to Could Happen Here, the only sue where things happen. 0:42:41.480 --> 0:42:44.560 I'm Ani Siege of Future Channel Antraism and I'm joined 0:42:44.560 --> 0:42:46.840 by Garrison Clo Hello. 0:42:48.560 --> 0:42:49.120 Nice. 0:42:49.840 --> 0:42:55.320 Recently I've been researching and writing on education and anarchista Honestly, 0:42:55.360 --> 0:42:58.040 it's one of my favorite topics to look into, and 0:42:58.080 --> 0:43:01.200 it's one of the topics I think I'm most passionate about. 0:43:01.719 --> 0:43:04.680 Yeah, that's definitely a hot topic within this political field. 0:43:04.680 --> 0:43:08.000 There's a large, large variety of opinions. 0:43:08.280 --> 0:43:11.560 One might say for sure, for sure, for sure, I 0:43:11.600 --> 0:43:16.040 mean consciousness does form the basis of revolution, and there's 0:43:16.040 --> 0:43:19.359 a long history of anarchist struggle around education, whether it 0:43:19.360 --> 0:43:22.600 be in terms of critiquing US role in social control 0:43:22.800 --> 0:43:27.160 and socialization, or discussing news liberation, or talking about the 0:43:27.160 --> 0:43:30.880 inequalities of the current education system, or the influenza statist 0:43:30.960 --> 0:43:35.360 capitalists and religious ideologies, or the whole discussion around sex education. 0:43:36.440 --> 0:43:39.880 These are all things that anarchists have looked into discussed, 0:43:40.280 --> 0:43:42.279 and so it's to wrestle with. 0:43:43.840 --> 0:43:43.920 No. 0:43:44.160 --> 0:43:47.959 It's interesting because anarchists have, like I believe, the large 0:43:48.040 --> 0:43:51.120 number of people who are like, very like militantly like 0:43:51.239 --> 0:43:54.080 anti school but also have a really high number of 0:43:54.080 --> 0:43:57.080 people who become teachers. So it's always kind of interesting 0:43:57.920 --> 0:43:59.920 when you're ever at like an anarchist gathering, you have 0:44:00.160 --> 0:44:02.560 half the people are like school teachers, the other half 0:44:02.560 --> 0:44:06.279 are like destroy the schools, which is always just a 0:44:06.320 --> 0:44:07.120 little bit amusing. 0:44:08.239 --> 0:44:11.080 Yeah, for sure, for sure. So it's really I think 0:44:11.120 --> 0:44:14.839 people have to deal with that sort of tension. Anarchists 0:44:15.000 --> 0:44:16.839 find themselves in those sort of tensions, but then they 0:44:16.880 --> 0:44:20.200 also find themselves put themselves in those positions in part 0:44:20.320 --> 0:44:23.120 because they see the potential of those positions we you know, 0:44:23.680 --> 0:44:27.600 in sort of shape in the future. But I don't 0:44:27.600 --> 0:44:31.160 mean to mislead anybody this episode, would it's only tangentially 0:44:31.200 --> 0:44:36.160 related to education. Okay, Yeah, So basically in my research 0:44:36.200 --> 0:44:40.480 on education, I stumbled upon this article called anarchists of 0:44:40.520 --> 0:44:43.440 an Education and early Republican Cuba from eighteen ninety eight 0:44:43.480 --> 0:44:46.759 to nineteen twenty five. And also I found some other 0:44:46.800 --> 0:44:49.440 works on anarchist Cuba in general and his all thanks 0:44:49.480 --> 0:44:53.920 to the scholarship of Kubin Shaffer. And I mean, for 0:44:54.000 --> 0:44:56.520 some time now, I've been meaning to dig deeper into 0:44:56.560 --> 0:44:59.600 the history of anarchism in Cuba. Dare I say, I 0:44:59.600 --> 0:45:04.360 think it's been forgotten, and so I took a dive 0:45:04.440 --> 0:45:07.719 into it. I first started with Stephen J. Hersh and 0:45:07.800 --> 0:45:11.040 Lucian van der Wald's work in anarchism and syndicalism in 0:45:11.080 --> 0:45:13.920 the colonial and post colonial world. And in my research 0:45:13.960 --> 0:45:17.200 I also founder work of Sam Dorkoff and Frank Finandez, 0:45:17.360 --> 0:45:23.440 both of whom were apparently highly influential in the scholarship, 0:45:24.000 --> 0:45:27.759 the historical research and the present understanding of Cuban anarchism. 0:45:28.040 --> 0:45:29.920 It's thanks to their research that we know what we know, 0:45:30.280 --> 0:45:33.400 bringing all those different things together, all those different sources together. 0:45:34.320 --> 0:45:39.600 So here we go, Akivamos, Let's discuss the history of 0:45:39.640 --> 0:45:46.879 Cuban anarchism, and our story begins in the early nineteenth century. 0:45:47.000 --> 0:45:49.959 You know, the sun on colonial Cuba, casting a long 0:45:50.000 --> 0:45:52.760 and heavy shadow across the vibe and streets of Havana. 0:45:53.280 --> 0:45:56.399 The gentle salty breezes carried I'm trying a new thing. 0:45:56.920 --> 0:46:00.000 I see a facial ext friend. I'm trying I like 0:46:00.040 --> 0:46:01.759 Can I like it? I'm trying to said the same, 0:46:02.760 --> 0:46:06.080 you know, feel those salty breezes carrying the scent of 0:46:06.120 --> 0:46:09.279 tobacco and coffee and sugar cane. But let's not get 0:46:09.320 --> 0:46:12.600 too romantic. You know, this was a plantation society where 0:46:12.640 --> 0:46:15.640 African slaves remained in chains and toiled in the hot 0:46:15.680 --> 0:46:19.239 sun while many of their contemporaries gained their freedom and 0:46:19.560 --> 0:46:23.080 plantition known as navigated the web of politics and power. 0:46:23.960 --> 0:46:29.560 Cuba was among the last countries to abolish slavery, and 0:46:29.600 --> 0:46:33.960 the Cuban aristocracy, being uniquely loyal to the Spanish crown, 0:46:34.800 --> 0:46:39.560 was primarily responsible for the persistence to that institution. You know, 0:46:39.600 --> 0:46:42.720 they were dedicated to Spain long after much of Latin 0:46:42.760 --> 0:46:48.719 America had won their independence, and despite the aristocrat's loyalty, 0:46:49.400 --> 0:46:53.680 there were still whispers of liberation and revolution in corners 0:46:53.719 --> 0:46:58.240 of the city. In eighteen fifty seven, just nearly two 0:46:58.280 --> 0:47:01.600 decades after the French track called pered Joseph Prudin declared 0:47:01.640 --> 0:47:05.240 himself an anarchists and a mutualist. The first Proonian Mutualist 0:47:05.280 --> 0:47:08.880 Society would be founded in Cuba, marking the early beginnings 0:47:08.880 --> 0:47:12.680 of the organized labor movement on the island. A decade later, 0:47:12.760 --> 0:47:18.400 in eighteen sixty five, lecturers or readings places where political 0:47:18.400 --> 0:47:23.200 ideas we read in cigar factories. They became very widespread 0:47:23.560 --> 0:47:26.600 considering the predominance of the tobacco industry, and in the 0:47:26.600 --> 0:47:29.440 same year, the first strike threat would occur at a 0:47:29.480 --> 0:47:34.360 tobacco works in Havana, leading to successful negotiations for increased wages. 0:47:34.760 --> 0:47:37.840 In eighteen sixty six, Havana based artisans would establish the 0:47:37.880 --> 0:47:41.120 first evening school for workers, lay in the foundation for 0:47:41.239 --> 0:47:45.640 worker based Education. Between eighteen sixty eight and eighteen seventy eight, 0:47:46.000 --> 0:47:50.000 conflict would erupt into violence as the sugar mill owner 0:47:50.080 --> 0:47:55.280 Carlos Manuel de Sespides and his followers proclaimed independence, beginning 0:47:55.280 --> 0:47:58.800 the first of three liberation wars that Cuba fought against Spain. 0:48:00.160 --> 0:48:03.400 The first, a horizon led by wealthy planters, would be 0:48:03.440 --> 0:48:05.800 known as the Ten Years' War, and it would be 0:48:05.800 --> 0:48:08.280 followed by a second uprising, the Little War, from eighteen 0:48:08.280 --> 0:48:12.840 seventy nineteighteen eighty, and meanwhile, the Cubas anarchist movement would 0:48:12.840 --> 0:48:16.600 look to establish another worker's school and a newspaper. These 0:48:16.600 --> 0:48:19.879 efforts were led by cigar makers Enrique roy De Saint 0:48:19.880 --> 0:48:25.600 Martin and Enrique Messonier. In Havana, greg San Martin founded 0:48:25.600 --> 0:48:29.120 this Center of Instruction and Recreation. Its purpose was to 0:48:29.120 --> 0:48:33.280 defend worker organizations and distribute anarchal collectivist literature from Spain. 0:48:33.880 --> 0:48:36.760 The doors of the center opened to all Cubans, regardless 0:48:36.760 --> 0:48:42.360 of their social position, political leanings, or color differences. Gregson 0:48:42.440 --> 0:48:45.600 Martin also took the position of editor at the newspaper 0:48:45.680 --> 0:48:49.640 El Obrero, co opting it from the Democratic Republicans and 0:48:49.680 --> 0:48:54.120 turned it into an explicitly anarchist newspaper. The anarchists and 0:48:54.120 --> 0:48:59.480 tobacco industry were pioneering the emergent labour struggle, bolstered by 0:48:59.480 --> 0:49:02.960 the transport of anarchist periodicals from Spain to Cuba and 0:49:03.000 --> 0:49:06.840 the transmission of ideas by Spanish immigrant workers. The first 0:49:06.840 --> 0:49:11.200 regional centers, clinics, secular schools, mutual aid associations and Free 0:49:11.239 --> 0:49:16.000 Association of tobacco workers, typographers, carpenters, day laborers and artisans 0:49:16.239 --> 0:49:22.080 were emerging thanks to the influence of Prudon's ideas. While 0:49:22.160 --> 0:49:25.200 some in the labor movement were appreciate reformism and collaboration 0:49:25.320 --> 0:49:28.720 with capitalist interests, the anarchists stood firm in their rejection 0:49:28.880 --> 0:49:32.279 of submission to the feat of capital. In eighteen eighty five, 0:49:32.640 --> 0:49:35.840 the Junta Central de r Tisnos was founded to unite 0:49:35.880 --> 0:49:39.319 Cuba's workers in federations. In the same year, in the 0:49:39.360 --> 0:49:43.840 RecA Massoniir launched the Circulo de Trabajadores or Workers Circle, 0:49:44.239 --> 0:49:48.480 which was focused on educational and cultural activities. The Worker's 0:49:48.480 --> 0:49:51.680 Circle became the largest labor organization in Cuba in the 0:49:51.760 --> 0:49:55.080 late eighteen eighties. It hosted a secular school for five 0:49:55.160 --> 0:49:59.080 hundred poor students to challenge Cuba's public and religious schools. 0:49:59.200 --> 0:50:01.960 It held rally for groups of workers, and it led 0:50:02.200 --> 0:50:08.040 anti nationalist and anti racist education efforts. Anarchists will also 0:50:08.120 --> 0:50:13.320 challenge in discrimination in labor and immigration policies. By eighteen 0:50:13.320 --> 0:50:17.640 eighty six, Spain finally outlawed slavery, and the Cuban anarchists 0:50:17.640 --> 0:50:21.000 would attempt to welcome Afro Cubans into the labor organizations, 0:50:21.880 --> 0:50:25.239 with mixed success. And we'll get to that soon. In 0:50:25.280 --> 0:50:29.960 eighteen eighty seven, Roixamartin launched Al Productor, a weekly newspaper 0:50:30.000 --> 0:50:31.960 that will become a must read for the work in 0:50:32.000 --> 0:50:34.640 people of Cuba, and to coordinate it to publication and 0:50:34.680 --> 0:50:37.480 the efforts of the various workers groups, workers founded the 0:50:37.480 --> 0:50:41.880 Alianza Oprera or Workers' Alliance. With the founder of the 0:50:41.880 --> 0:50:45.200 Alliance and the sponsorship of another organization, La Ferracion de 0:50:45.239 --> 0:50:49.240 Tabadores de Cuba or FDC or Federation of Cuban Workers, 0:50:49.800 --> 0:50:53.400 the first Congresso Obrero de Cuba would be held in Havana. 0:50:54.000 --> 0:50:57.080 Majority of the members of the FDC were tobacco workers, 0:50:57.600 --> 0:51:01.400 but members of other trades also participated, like tailors and 0:51:01.480 --> 0:51:05.319 drivers and bakers and baro makers and dock workers. So 0:51:05.360 --> 0:51:09.240 that's a lot of organizations in quick succession. So to summarize, 0:51:09.560 --> 0:51:13.319 we have the center of instruction recreation, the newspapers El 0:51:13.360 --> 0:51:18.640 Peructor and Obrero, the Junta Centrale de Artisanos or Central 0:51:18.719 --> 0:51:22.960 Union of Artisans, El Sercuilo de Travajadores or Workers Circle, 0:51:23.480 --> 0:51:28.320 the Alianza Obrera or Workers Alliance, and Laferracion de Travajadores 0:51:28.360 --> 0:51:32.320 de Cuba or FDC, which held the first Congresso Obrero 0:51:32.560 --> 0:51:36.680 or Workers Congress in Cuba. All these organized efforts would 0:51:36.719 --> 0:51:41.239 spark another strike. Remember the first threat, which did not 0:51:41.360 --> 0:51:43.520 lead to a strike, took place in eighteen sixty five, 0:51:44.480 --> 0:51:47.479 but this time it was different. In July eighteen eighty eight, 0:51:47.600 --> 0:51:50.120 the tobacco workers call a strike at the Henry Clay 0:51:50.200 --> 0:51:53.960 tobacco factory in Havana. The Workers Circle met and agreed 0:51:54.000 --> 0:51:56.640 to begin collecting donations to support the workers out in 0:51:56.680 --> 0:51:59.920 the streets, and sent delegates to Key West in Florida 0:52:00.120 --> 0:52:03.240 to solicit aid from the tobacco workers there. The Worker's 0:52:03.280 --> 0:52:05.960 Circle was very much involved in a lot of these 0:52:05.960 --> 0:52:09.719 things because they actually had a large headquarters that coordinated 0:52:09.719 --> 0:52:13.000 the offices of many workers associations. In addition to the 0:52:13.040 --> 0:52:15.680 school that I mentioned they founded, they had their fingers 0:52:15.719 --> 0:52:18.120 and a lot of the associations and solidarity efforts that 0:52:18.160 --> 0:52:21.080 had taken place. By eighteen eighty nine, they founded yet 0:52:21.120 --> 0:52:23.759 another school, teaching over one hundred men at night and 0:52:23.800 --> 0:52:26.640 eight hundred children during the day. Elegance the establishment of 0:52:26.719 --> 0:52:30.600 new schools across the island, And also in eighteen eighty nine, 0:52:30.760 --> 0:52:33.439 those same tobacco workers in Key West called their own 0:52:33.480 --> 0:52:36.640 general strike due to poor working conditions, low wages, and 0:52:36.680 --> 0:52:41.120 stock living conditions. And guess what they stood in solidarity 0:52:41.239 --> 0:52:43.560 with the Cuban workers, and the Cuban workers stood in 0:52:43.600 --> 0:52:47.960 solidarity with them. The Workers Alliance also connected with workers 0:52:48.040 --> 0:52:52.320 organizations in Florida and fosters solidarity between workers in Florida 0:52:52.360 --> 0:52:55.319 and Cuba. In addition to Key West, strikes would also 0:52:55.360 --> 0:52:59.600 break out in Tampa and Ybor City. Despite some violence 0:52:59.640 --> 0:53:02.360 and the expulsion of the strike leaders, the strike in 0:53:02.400 --> 0:53:05.520 Florida ended in early eighteen ninety with a triumph for 0:53:05.560 --> 0:53:09.080 Florida's tobacco workers as the owners acceded to the demands 0:53:09.120 --> 0:53:12.520 for a pay increase. On May first International Workers Day, 0:53:12.920 --> 0:53:16.640 over three thousand workers marched through Havana, and in this 0:53:16.719 --> 0:53:20.880 time the workers Circle was continuously expanding. But within this 0:53:21.000 --> 0:53:25.160 year also came tragedy, as in August Enrique Roig San 0:53:25.239 --> 0:53:28.560 Martin died at the age of forty six, and the 0:53:28.640 --> 0:53:31.920 last of the three conflicts against Spain would be the 0:53:32.000 --> 0:53:35.520 Cuban War of Independence, which raged from eighteen ninety five 0:53:35.680 --> 0:53:39.759 to eighteen ninety eight. Anarchists in Cuba, New York, and 0:53:39.960 --> 0:53:45.360 Spain debated support for Cuba's independent struggle but despite concerns, 0:53:45.520 --> 0:53:49.120 most anarchists did support independence, seeing it as an anti 0:53:49.160 --> 0:53:53.600 colonial fight against Spanish imperialism and an opportunity to transform 0:53:53.640 --> 0:53:58.919 the island along anarchist principles. Figures like Jose Garcia, Rafael Serra, 0:53:59.280 --> 0:54:04.800 and Adrian del Valle promoted anarchist internationalism while also seek 0:54:04.800 --> 0:54:09.480 in Cuban national liberation. The final three months that conflict 0:54:09.600 --> 0:54:14.680 escalated with US involvement becoming known as the Spanish American War, 0:54:15.400 --> 0:54:19.600 and following Spain's defeat, the US briefly occupied Cuba with 0:54:19.680 --> 0:54:23.000 the promise of greater autonomy in the future. Of course, 0:54:23.440 --> 0:54:26.360 we all know how that promised to endow with repeated 0:54:26.400 --> 0:54:32.040 interventions Kim Crowen anarchist opposition. The US occupiers overhauled the 0:54:32.080 --> 0:54:35.600 Cuban education system and introduced a new model influenced by 0:54:35.640 --> 0:54:40.640 American principles, emphasizing liberal arts, manual instruction, and civic education 0:54:40.880 --> 0:54:45.440 to republicanize the children of Cuba and promote democracy. In 0:54:45.480 --> 0:54:49.520 spite of some reforms, the Cuban education system still suffered corruption, 0:54:50.120 --> 0:54:55.279 inadequate and infrastructure, and overcrowded classrooms. In eighteen ninety nine, 0:54:55.400 --> 0:54:59.400 just a year after independence, the Workers Alliance organized a 0:54:59.480 --> 0:55:03.600 mason's strike which extended into the construction trade and also 0:55:03.680 --> 0:55:08.120 led to several arrests and the overall repression of the anarchists. 0:55:09.080 --> 0:55:11.680 This is a persistent theme, of course. 0:55:12.160 --> 0:55:16.040 Yes, I mean it's interesting, how like in a lot 0:55:16.040 --> 0:55:18.120 of like the political stuff we learned about Cuba, it's 0:55:18.160 --> 0:55:21.719 more based on like the socialist and more communist struggles 0:55:21.760 --> 0:55:24.879 of the twentieth century. And I knew that there were 0:55:24.920 --> 0:55:29.160 like anarchists active before that and even during that time 0:55:29.200 --> 0:55:32.960 period as well, but there is a lot of this 0:55:33.120 --> 0:55:36.680 that seems to be not nearly as talked about it 0:55:36.680 --> 0:55:42.240 emphasized as the later more socialist leaning struggles that came. 0:55:44.280 --> 0:55:48.640 And you'll notice that, you know, in places where the 0:55:48.680 --> 0:55:55.880 Marxists won, basically any of the pre Marxist victory history 0:55:56.080 --> 0:56:01.799 of anarchists involvement tends to be diminished to ever raised entirely. Yeah. 0:56:01.880 --> 0:56:05.480 Yeah, like in literally every in every struggle all across 0:56:05.480 --> 0:56:08.120 the world where that's happened. That does seem to be 0:56:08.160 --> 0:56:08.560 the case. 0:56:09.640 --> 0:56:13.799 Exactly exactly when I found this information and my mind 0:56:13.880 --> 0:56:15.719 was blowing, you know, I had no idea all of 0:56:15.760 --> 0:56:18.440 this was going on. Yeah, the fact that from as 0:56:18.480 --> 0:56:25.440 early as Prudon's lifetime, there were anarchists in Cuba organizing associations. 0:56:26.239 --> 0:56:29.280 I mean, come on, yeah, in like the eighteen fifties 0:56:30.560 --> 0:56:30.799 and it. 0:56:30.760 --> 0:56:33.239 Gets bigger, a lot more takes place. I haven't even 0:56:33.280 --> 0:56:36.359 really breached the other twentieth century yet. That's when things 0:56:36.360 --> 0:56:37.080 really kick off. 0:56:37.360 --> 0:56:48.280 Let's get to that after this message from our sponsors. 0:56:52.239 --> 0:56:56.560 All right, we are back. Let's return to Andrew's discussion 0:56:56.600 --> 0:56:57.520 of anarchism in Cuba. 0:56:58.480 --> 0:57:02.359 Yes, so so. Also in eighteen ninety nine, some new 0:57:02.360 --> 0:57:05.480 anarchist projects dropped onto the scene. You know, you had 0:57:05.480 --> 0:57:09.160 the Liga General de Travadores or General League of Workers, 0:57:09.560 --> 0:57:11.879 which emerged with the back in the Missonia and another 0:57:11.960 --> 0:57:17.240 anarchist ramone Rivero eve Rivero, and also the publication Tierra, 0:57:17.800 --> 0:57:22.600 which was founded by anarchists Abelardo Savedra and Francisco Gonzalees Sola. 0:57:23.560 --> 0:57:27.360 And the publication El Nuevo Idl was also founded, but 0:57:27.880 --> 0:57:31.560 it only lasted a couple of years. Notably, it loudly 0:57:31.640 --> 0:57:34.520 opposed the US's plans for ANIX and Cuba and the 0:57:34.520 --> 0:57:38.960 introduction of the plat Amendment to the Cuban Constitution, which 0:57:39.000 --> 0:57:42.120 would provide pretense for US intervention in the future. The 0:57:42.160 --> 0:57:45.440 plat Amendment was really that point in the Cuban constitution 0:57:46.400 --> 0:57:52.640 that would justify us infusion and involvement for years to come. 0:57:53.720 --> 0:57:55.600 Here's a little easter egg, a little fun fact. It 0:57:55.600 --> 0:57:59.280 will come you. In fact, you could call him a 0:57:59.360 --> 0:58:03.000 run income you for the anarchist worldwide, a familiar face 0:58:03.520 --> 0:58:06.400 because he showed up in Havana in this year, and 0:58:06.440 --> 0:58:09.800 he also showed up in Egypt during their anarchist struggle 0:58:10.000 --> 0:58:13.240 for those who remember that episode, any ideas. 0:58:12.840 --> 0:58:15.360 Too to try to think of this time period who 0:58:16.840 --> 0:58:17.160 at this. 0:58:17.160 --> 0:58:19.320 Point, at this point you could call him mister worldwide, 0:58:19.640 --> 0:58:21.560 the anarchist, mister Worldwide. 0:58:21.920 --> 0:58:25.600 Yeah, I don't think so. I think I'll only make 0:58:25.640 --> 0:58:26.480 a fool of myself. 0:58:28.360 --> 0:58:32.640 Yeah. The one and only Erko Malichester arrives in Cuba. 0:58:32.720 --> 0:58:35.320 Oh okay, okay, that makes sense, that makes sense. 0:58:35.720 --> 0:58:37.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. 0:58:37.440 --> 0:58:41.439 Yeah, mister worldwide. Of course, it didn't take long before 0:58:41.480 --> 0:58:43.920 he was barred from speaking in public and he very 0:58:44.000 --> 0:58:47.120 quickly had to leave Cuba, but he was there. He 0:58:47.160 --> 0:58:49.280 did show up and let me reach the you know, 0:58:49.320 --> 0:58:52.600 the turn of the century. Right just after the turn 0:58:52.600 --> 0:58:55.560 of the century, on May twentieth nineteen oh two, the 0:58:55.560 --> 0:58:59.240 First Republic of Cuba was inaugurated with the recognition of 0:58:59.280 --> 0:59:04.080 the US, but despite the survey opposition, the US retained 0:59:04.120 --> 0:59:08.520 influence over Cuba with that plat amendment. With independence, many 0:59:08.560 --> 0:59:12.400 Cubans aspired to build a more egalitarian nation. The Cuban 0:59:12.440 --> 0:59:15.959 anarchists continued to struggle even as they were becoming disillusioned 0:59:16.000 --> 0:59:19.760 by the continued prioritization of individual profits of a society, 0:59:19.760 --> 0:59:24.600 wellbon the oppression of labor and the terrible educational systems. 0:59:25.240 --> 0:59:28.800 They had their first truly general strike in nineteen oh two, 0:59:29.200 --> 0:59:32.480 known as the Apprentice Strike, but it was suppressed and failed, 0:59:32.840 --> 0:59:36.840 and with its failure, leading figures in the Lega Heeneral 0:59:36.840 --> 0:59:41.320 de Trebadores like Messonniea and Rivero Yirverro, retired from the 0:59:41.360 --> 0:59:45.560 labour struggle. A year later, in nineteen oh three, anarchists 0:59:45.680 --> 0:59:49.080 organized in the sugar industry, which was met with a 0:59:49.200 --> 0:59:52.160 violent response from the owners, including the murder of two 0:59:52.240 --> 0:59:57.560 prominent anarchist figures, Casanias and Buntero. The year before the 0:59:57.640 --> 1:00:00.560 US recognition of Cuban independence in nineteen oh one, just 1:00:00.600 --> 1:00:04.480 across the pond in Spain, Francisco Ferrer had found that 1:00:04.640 --> 1:00:08.840 his first modern school. Ferrer is an icon in the 1:00:08.880 --> 1:00:12.240 sphere of anarchist education for his pioneer and efforts as 1:00:12.240 --> 1:00:15.880 anarchists and Cuba condemn in public schools for their condition pedagogy, 1:00:16.040 --> 1:00:20.160 patriotic indoctrination, and lack of critical thinking. They were inspired 1:00:20.160 --> 1:00:23.600 by they alternative education rooted in rationalism and free inquiry 1:00:23.800 --> 1:00:25.160 that was introduced by Ferrer. 1:00:25.560 --> 1:00:27.160 At this point, is there like a decent bit of 1:00:27.160 --> 1:00:30.400 communication between the anarchists in Spain and the anarchists in Cuba, 1:00:30.400 --> 1:00:33.120 because all the stuff you've been mentioning sounds very reminiscent 1:00:33.160 --> 1:00:36.560 of some of like the anarchosympicalist models that would grow 1:00:36.640 --> 1:00:39.240 to more prominence in Spain in the coming decades. 1:00:39.560 --> 1:00:40.480 Oh, yeah, for sure. 1:00:40.600 --> 1:00:42.600 In this field, Yeah, it feels very very similar. 1:00:43.480 --> 1:00:47.480 There was a very large Spanish immigrant community in Cuba 1:00:47.520 --> 1:00:51.320 at the time of Spanish workers, and that would actually 1:00:52.080 --> 1:00:54.280 end up biting the anarchist movement in the but later 1:00:54.360 --> 1:00:57.760 on and you know, you'll see how Okay, Yeah, there 1:00:57.800 --> 1:01:00.000 was a lot of there was a lot of cross 1:01:00.040 --> 1:01:03.640 pollination between the Spanish anarchists and the Cuban anarchists that 1:01:03.680 --> 1:01:07.440 makes sense. In many cases they were both Spanish and Cuba. Sure, 1:01:08.160 --> 1:01:11.720 and so when for Popstar with this school in Barcelona 1:01:11.800 --> 1:01:14.000 and in other places in Spain. I mean, the Cuban 1:01:14.040 --> 1:01:17.040 Anarchists had already been organized in education before, as their 1:01:17.080 --> 1:01:19.960 program had always sought to raise consciousness and prepare for 1:01:19.960 --> 1:01:24.560 social revolution. But Ferrer offered that extra dose of inspiration. 1:01:24.800 --> 1:01:24.960 You know. 1:01:24.960 --> 1:01:28.320 His modern schools introduced things like free play and individual 1:01:28.320 --> 1:01:32.760 liberty and really inspired the founding of educational experiments across Europe, 1:01:32.880 --> 1:01:37.360 Asia and the Americas. In nineteen oh five, Covino Vilar 1:01:37.520 --> 1:01:41.160 opened for that a co educational primary and secondary school 1:01:41.160 --> 1:01:45.160 in Havana, following Frea's principles of free in Korean individual liberty. 1:01:45.600 --> 1:01:48.720 In nineteen oh six, the CEES School was established in Regular, 1:01:49.120 --> 1:01:54.080 embracing the advanced pedagogical perspective methods of these Spanish Anarchists schools. 1:01:54.440 --> 1:01:56.800 And that very same year, nineteen oh six, the US 1:01:56.960 --> 1:01:59.880 intervened in Cuba again. You know, they can't even let 1:02:00.160 --> 1:02:03.160 decade go by of independence before they say, nap were 1:02:03.200 --> 1:02:06.560 stepping in, you know. So of course, in response, strikes 1:02:06.640 --> 1:02:10.160 breakout in Havana, Siego de a Vila and Santiago de 1:02:10.280 --> 1:02:13.800 Cuba anyway, so that's going on, and anarchists are also 1:02:13.960 --> 1:02:17.560 organized and speaking tours. In nineteen oh eight, anarchists formed 1:02:17.560 --> 1:02:22.200 the group at Ucaciondale Porvenir or Education of the Future 1:02:22.440 --> 1:02:26.320 in Regular which sought to established modern schools across the island. 1:02:26.760 --> 1:02:29.440 The LGA Heneral de Trabahadories also got involved in the 1:02:29.440 --> 1:02:35.520 group's efforts. Unfortunately, internal conflicts and financial difficulties undermined the 1:02:35.560 --> 1:02:39.560 initial wave of anarchist schools in this time. Meanwhile, private 1:02:39.600 --> 1:02:45.760 school options, particularly of the religious variety, were proliferated across Cuba. Eventually, 1:02:45.840 --> 1:02:49.600 in nineteen oh nine, Ferrero was arrested and executed by 1:02:49.640 --> 1:02:53.880 Spanish authorities, which actually triggered a protest in Cuba and 1:02:53.960 --> 1:02:57.240 also triggered resistance elsewhere in the world. That would simultaneously 1:02:57.240 --> 1:03:00.200 seek to advocate his ideas further and of course, was 1:03:00.240 --> 1:03:03.680 to honor his memory. Turning out went to the nineteen tens. 1:03:03.760 --> 1:03:07.520 It was a very eventful period. Let's just say, you know, 1:03:07.560 --> 1:03:11.120 the Mexican Revolution was a current which inspired Cubas workers 1:03:11.120 --> 1:03:16.080 and peasants. The Mexican Revolution was a current and that 1:03:16.240 --> 1:03:20.040 inspired Cuba's workers and peasants there was actually, just as 1:03:20.080 --> 1:03:23.240 there was cross pollination between Spanish anarchists and Cuban anarchists, 1:03:23.440 --> 1:03:26.520 there was cross pollination between Cuban anarchists and Mexican anarchists, 1:03:26.880 --> 1:03:30.960 you know, anarchists. Ricardo Flores Magon, a Titanic figure in 1:03:31.080 --> 1:03:34.440 Mexican revolution, actually had a stand in a relationship with 1:03:34.480 --> 1:03:37.640 the Cuban paper Tierra, as the paper was critical of 1:03:37.680 --> 1:03:42.520 the Mexican dictator of the time, Portfyrio DS. So while 1:03:42.560 --> 1:03:46.760 the guns of the revolutionary Imiliano Zapata were firing in Mexico, 1:03:47.400 --> 1:03:52.240 tobacco workers, teamsters and bakers were striking in Cuba. In 1:03:52.320 --> 1:03:56.080 nineteen twelve, a congress was formed in Crusius with the 1:03:56.080 --> 1:04:00.800 aim to create an island wide labor federation. But another 1:04:00.880 --> 1:04:06.040 significant event occurred in nineteen twelve. You see, all this time, 1:04:06.520 --> 1:04:10.480 Afrocubans will play in significant roles in the island's labor movements, 1:04:10.840 --> 1:04:13.680 particularly through strikes such as the eighteen ninety nine Mason 1:04:13.720 --> 1:04:18.600 strike and the sugar workers' struggles. Despite this, they were 1:04:18.640 --> 1:04:22.440 dealing with a lot of political and cultural persecution and 1:04:22.560 --> 1:04:27.440 faced high literacy rates, job discrimination, and disenfranchisement due to 1:04:27.520 --> 1:04:32.760 literacy and property requirements. For voting. Naturally, Afrocubans wanted to 1:04:32.800 --> 1:04:35.800 fight against this, so they formed their own political party, 1:04:36.000 --> 1:04:39.960 the Independent Party of Color or PIC, and the government 1:04:40.120 --> 1:04:44.880 quickly outlawed it, which triggered several violent attacks on PIC 1:04:45.000 --> 1:04:50.360 supporter meetings throughout nineteen twelve. It was essentially a race riot, 1:04:50.840 --> 1:04:54.560 and it killed as many as six thousand Afrocubans and 1:04:54.720 --> 1:04:58.160 resulted in another nine hundred thrown in jail and charged 1:04:58.200 --> 1:05:05.040 with rebellion. This time, the anarchist response was weaker than 1:05:05.040 --> 1:05:09.760 it could have been. Writers like Adrian del Vallier and 1:05:10.200 --> 1:05:15.400 Eugenio Leante presented pressed the importance of education and the 1:05:15.440 --> 1:05:18.640 good upbringing of children to root out the racist attitudes 1:05:18.680 --> 1:05:21.960 that led to the massacre. Writers like Adrian de la 1:05:22.000 --> 1:05:27.280 Vallei and Eugenio Leante pressed the importance of education and 1:05:27.360 --> 1:05:30.480 the importance of a good upbringing of children to root 1:05:30.560 --> 1:05:33.600 out the racial attitudes. The racist attitudes that led to 1:05:33.640 --> 1:05:37.360 the massacre, as those attitudes are still present a mere 1:05:37.520 --> 1:05:42.120 generation after ablition. The anarchists were, as would be consisted 1:05:42.160 --> 1:05:45.720 of the principles critical of the PIC's political approach of 1:05:45.800 --> 1:05:50.400 bourgeois elections, but they did admire Africuman culture and recognize 1:05:50.440 --> 1:05:54.400 their contributions to workers liberation movements, but as far as 1:05:54.440 --> 1:05:58.200 I can tell, they didn't do much else beyond education 1:05:58.440 --> 1:06:02.800 to combat racist attitudes, likely feeling powerless to prevent the 1:06:02.880 --> 1:06:05.720 violence in nineteen twelve due to their own repression by 1:06:05.760 --> 1:06:09.240 the state. And of course, it isn't a binary of 1:06:09.400 --> 1:06:13.720 Africubans and anarchists, as there were Africubans in the anarchist movement, 1:06:14.160 --> 1:06:18.000 including problem figures like Raphael Sarah who remained active into 1:06:18.000 --> 1:06:23.200 the nineteen forties, the printer Pablo Guira, and Margarito Iglesias, 1:06:23.240 --> 1:06:25.960 who is the black anarchist leader of the Manufacturers Union 1:06:26.160 --> 1:06:33.280 in nineteen twenties. Still, despite this overlap, the anarchists still 1:06:33.320 --> 1:06:38.000 couldn't shake their perception as white and foreigners, which. 1:06:37.800 --> 1:06:42.640 Is still a dynamic at play today with anarchists as 1:06:42.680 --> 1:06:48.840 people free anarchists. Saul is like white teenagers, I guess, 1:06:48.880 --> 1:06:52.600 and will often discount the presence of black anarchists and 1:06:52.640 --> 1:06:54.160 other anarchists or people of color. 1:06:55.560 --> 1:06:58.680 Yeah, I'm a bit of at a loss as to 1:06:58.760 --> 1:07:01.120 what I could say, like from this arm chair position, 1:07:01.200 --> 1:07:04.000 that they could have done differently in nineteen twelve. Sure, 1:07:04.400 --> 1:07:08.320 they definitely could have stepped up in tried with what 1:07:08.520 --> 1:07:12.040 to defend those communities and to start with those communities 1:07:12.080 --> 1:07:16.240 and solidarity. But at the same time, I wasn't there 1:07:16.600 --> 1:07:21.880 in nineteen twelve, so I'm not sure how things played out. 1:07:22.080 --> 1:07:25.160 But I do think that while the heart is in 1:07:25.240 --> 1:07:28.200 the right place with education to roots out racist attitudes, 1:07:28.920 --> 1:07:31.200 you know, consciousness raising is one thing which you really 1:07:31.200 --> 1:07:34.480 do have to, you know, put yourself on the line 1:07:34.720 --> 1:07:38.120 when it comes to defending marginalized groups, especially if you're 1:07:38.160 --> 1:07:43.600 coming from opposition of relative privilege, being white, to be 1:07:43.640 --> 1:07:49.760 in Spanish, in you know, recently post colonial Cuba, barely 1:07:49.840 --> 1:07:52.160 even post colonial Cuba, you know. 1:07:53.520 --> 1:07:56.080 Yeah, I mean I'm in the same position as you 1:07:56.200 --> 1:08:01.760 here or even further possessing an inability to try to 1:08:01.920 --> 1:08:05.120 critique from the twenty first century. But do you know 1:08:05.160 --> 1:08:08.680 what I do feel comfortable in calling is this next 1:08:08.720 --> 1:08:09.320 ad break? 1:08:20.680 --> 1:08:21.559 All right, we are back. 1:08:21.720 --> 1:08:25.479 Let's return to our discussion of anarchistsm in Cuba in 1:08:25.520 --> 1:08:26.680 the nineteen tenths. 1:08:27.600 --> 1:08:29.880 So in nineteen thirteen, as we was speaking of the 1:08:29.880 --> 1:08:34.000 repression of the anarchist movement, the third President of Cuba 1:08:34.080 --> 1:08:39.280 would step up, that is, General Mario Garcia Menocal and 1:08:40.520 --> 1:08:43.320 during his reign, the government would ramp up the repression 1:08:43.320 --> 1:08:47.360 of the anarchists with the passing of anti anarchist laws 1:08:47.760 --> 1:08:52.959 and the closure of anarchist organizations. There were crackdowns against 1:08:53.120 --> 1:08:58.280 the radical activities from nineteen fourteen on and the suspension 1:08:58.360 --> 1:09:03.000 of the Tierra publication and the deportation of many anarchists. 1:09:03.360 --> 1:09:05.599 Because in spite of the oppression, the anarchists movement began 1:09:05.640 --> 1:09:09.120 to recover by nineteen seventeen with the Centro Oberero or 1:09:09.200 --> 1:09:12.800 Worker's Center being established in Havana lead into resurgence of 1:09:12.800 --> 1:09:17.280 anarchist education and organized activity. Between nineteen eighteen and nineteen 1:09:17.360 --> 1:09:20.720 nineteen four general strikes a breakout in Havana and the 1:09:20.840 --> 1:09:24.080 US sent a flotilla in response to the disorder. The 1:09:24.080 --> 1:09:29.080 government suspended constitutional guarantees, deported even more anarchists, and closed 1:09:29.080 --> 1:09:33.439 the Centrol Obrero. Around this time, you also had the 1:09:33.479 --> 1:09:36.800 anaqual Naturists, which I really don't know where to fit 1:09:36.880 --> 1:09:38.559 into all of this, so I'll just put them here 1:09:38.600 --> 1:09:40.280 to give you from the repression. 1:09:40.560 --> 1:09:41.640 Naturists. 1:09:42.200 --> 1:09:44.679 Yeah yeah, So let's take this as like a breath 1:09:44.720 --> 1:09:47.800 of fresh air from all of the repression and against anarchists. 1:09:47.840 --> 1:09:50.440 By the state you had the anquo naturists. 1:09:50.680 --> 1:09:53.120 That's what I haven't heard before. Are these like old 1:09:53.160 --> 1:09:54.400 timey green anarchists. 1:09:54.439 --> 1:09:56.920 I guess. 1:09:57.640 --> 1:09:59.719 No, I'll actually be the judge of that. I'll actually 1:09:59.800 --> 1:10:00.519 the that. 1:10:00.560 --> 1:10:05.599 It's like actual naturist philosophy. Yes, ah, oh weird. 1:10:06.520 --> 1:10:09.559 Yes. The naturist movement was developed in Europe and North 1:10:09.600 --> 1:10:12.960 America during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, and 1:10:13.000 --> 1:10:17.800 it focused on alternative personal health and lifestyle practices such 1:10:17.800 --> 1:10:24.200 as adopted vegetarianism, exercise, nudism, and small village life to 1:10:24.280 --> 1:10:26.960 combat the effects of industrial mass society. 1:10:27.280 --> 1:10:31.760 Okay, so there is like little tidbits of like anarchop 1:10:32.000 --> 1:10:34.920 of like what would become anarcho primitivism in here, but 1:10:35.040 --> 1:10:36.920 it's definitely not like a one to one overlap. 1:10:37.880 --> 1:10:42.400 Yeah, yeah, especially not in Cuba. In Cuba, the anarchists 1:10:42.400 --> 1:10:46.120 aimed to shift the naturist movements focused away from primarily 1:10:46.200 --> 1:10:51.160 individual health concerns to an emphasis on social emaspiratory themes. 1:10:51.520 --> 1:10:54.040 So why in nineteen ten you had lectures on nitarismo 1:10:54.800 --> 1:10:59.920 and although it didn't have the broader emaspiratory dimensions initially, 1:11:00.800 --> 1:11:03.760 later in the decade, the movement would gain its momentum 1:11:04.320 --> 1:11:07.960 and the Nature's Association would expand to establish branches across 1:11:08.000 --> 1:11:10.799 Cuba and even Tampa, Florida. 1:11:11.720 --> 1:11:12.559 Huh Okay. 1:11:12.640 --> 1:11:16.160 Now, anacin naturism in Cuba wasn't too big on the 1:11:16.280 --> 1:11:21.280 nudism aspect of the naturism, but they did emphasize the 1:11:21.360 --> 1:11:25.439 vegetarian self sufficiency against the reliance and capitalism and so 1:11:25.640 --> 1:11:28.639 to learn and teach alternative medicine to help people deal 1:11:28.680 --> 1:11:32.120 with the health problems brought about by factory and field 1:11:32.160 --> 1:11:36.639 work and toxic living conditions. Okay, I know the anical 1:11:36.720 --> 1:11:39.479 nature has actually lasted well into the nineteen fifties, so 1:11:40.320 --> 1:11:44.840 good for them. But let's get back into the timeline. 1:11:45.560 --> 1:11:49.920 If you know anything about history, you know what significant 1:11:49.920 --> 1:11:54.000 event takes place in Russia in nineteen seventeen. The Russian 1:11:54.040 --> 1:11:58.200 Revolution would reverberate across the landscape of workers struggles for 1:11:58.320 --> 1:12:02.400 decades to come. In the next episode, we'll see how 1:12:02.400 --> 1:12:06.360 the Bolsheviks rise would shape the anarchist movement in Cuba 1:12:06.680 --> 1:12:09.400 leading up to the Rise of Castro, as well as 1:12:09.400 --> 1:12:14.200 how anarchists have endured since then until then. And it 1:12:14.240 --> 1:12:17.840 could happen here. And this is Andrewism. I'll pout to 1:12:17.840 --> 1:12:35.200 all the people peace, Welcome to could happen here. I'm 1:12:35.200 --> 1:12:39.519 Andrew Sage of futuree Channel Antraism. I'm again joined by Garrison. 1:12:39.880 --> 1:12:41.679 Say hello again, Hello again. 1:12:42.240 --> 1:12:45.439 See see what it did there? Very very good, very original, 1:12:45.439 --> 1:12:47.440 and very funny, fantastic. 1:12:48.840 --> 1:12:51.760 So last time we were discussing the forgotten history of 1:12:51.840 --> 1:12:56.600 Cuban anarchism, I mean took you by surprise. It's you 1:12:56.640 --> 1:12:59.479 by surprise, and I think it's taken some of the 1:12:59.520 --> 1:13:02.400 audience by surprise too. You know the fact that from 1:13:02.439 --> 1:13:06.520 the very first Prunian and Mutualist Society in eighteen fifty seven, 1:13:06.960 --> 1:13:10.360 to the rise of the anarchist organizations, the strike activities 1:13:10.400 --> 1:13:14.880 that the schools, to even the anequ niaturists, all of 1:13:14.880 --> 1:13:19.200 this was going on from the mid nineteenth century all 1:13:19.240 --> 1:13:21.760 the way into the early twentieth century, even in the 1:13:21.800 --> 1:13:26.719 height of repression in the nineteen tenths, and the cycle 1:13:26.720 --> 1:13:28.080 of US intervention as well. 1:13:29.520 --> 1:13:31.120 I guess what I'm kind of curious about in this 1:13:31.200 --> 1:13:36.080 time period is, like before like the Socialist Revolution, were 1:13:36.320 --> 1:13:40.400 like the anarchists more prominent than some of like the 1:13:40.439 --> 1:13:41.440 actual communists. 1:13:42.600 --> 1:13:44.680 For my research, it does seem so yes. 1:13:44.560 --> 1:13:46.000 Yeah, like that's that's kind of what it sounds like. 1:13:46.080 --> 1:13:48.640 They were kind of the main political block for like 1:13:49.439 --> 1:13:50.960 almost seventy five years. 1:13:51.520 --> 1:13:53.760 Well things things do make it to in. 1:13:55.040 --> 1:13:57.400 Yeah, like the main the main political block on like 1:13:57.400 --> 1:13:59.640 like the like the left specifically, I guess, like the 1:14:00.080 --> 1:14:01.800 if you count anarchism as part of the left, which 1:14:01.880 --> 1:14:04.920 means for the case of simplicity, let's say. 1:14:04.760 --> 1:14:11.320 Sure, I don't, yes, but listenly I wouldn't be caught 1:14:11.320 --> 1:14:14.439 dead at here and to like French political taxonomy, but. 1:14:14.840 --> 1:14:17.719 Totally me in terms of its relation to like labor, 1:14:17.840 --> 1:14:19.880 especially especially this time period of like I. 1:14:19.920 --> 1:14:22.640 Know what you mean, I just like being difficult. 1:14:22.240 --> 1:14:25.479 Sometimes absolutely, I mean yeah that is, I agree with 1:14:25.560 --> 1:14:26.920 you in a lot of cases. But from a like 1:14:26.920 --> 1:14:29.920 a historical standpoint, it kind of makes sense when like 1:14:29.960 --> 1:14:32.160 all these almost all these people are like anarcho communists 1:14:32.240 --> 1:14:37.240 or anarcho synicalists. 1:14:35.040 --> 1:14:37.760 Or I mean you did have the anarcineaturists too, and 1:14:38.040 --> 1:14:38.880 the anarcho naturist. 1:14:38.960 --> 1:14:40.960 There you go, the three genders. 1:14:41.000 --> 1:14:43.920 And I mean t I completely mutualists as well. I mean, honestly, 1:14:43.960 --> 1:14:49.120 the divide, the stringent divide between the anarchist schools of 1:14:49.160 --> 1:14:52.200 thought wouldn't really come into play until we get into 1:14:52.200 --> 1:14:55.160 like the the twentieth century. 1:14:54.320 --> 1:14:56.599 So which we are entering right now. 1:14:56.680 --> 1:15:00.559 Yes, which we have vented. So where do we leave off? 1:15:00.560 --> 1:15:03.360 We left off on the big bang that was the 1:15:03.439 --> 1:15:06.240 Russian Revolution. Remember I said that things will take her turn. 1:15:06.360 --> 1:15:10.759 That is the turn the Russian wizard has been killed. Sad. Indeed, 1:15:12.080 --> 1:15:15.160 I promise to discuss how the death of that Russian 1:15:15.160 --> 1:15:19.400 wizard would impact Cuba going forward into the nineteen twenties 1:15:19.520 --> 1:15:26.120 and beyond. So there we are akiestamos once again, this 1:15:26.240 --> 1:15:29.920 infost thanks to the work of Kuen R. Shaffer, Stephen J. Hush, 1:15:30.040 --> 1:15:35.120 Lucien van der Walt, Sam Dolgov and Frank Fernandez. So 1:15:35.280 --> 1:15:38.680 in nineteen twenty the anarchists formed a Congress to advocate 1:15:38.720 --> 1:15:42.120 a series of immediate and transitory economic measures to resolve 1:15:42.200 --> 1:15:45.080 the high cost of living brought about by the decrease 1:15:45.160 --> 1:15:48.840 in sugar prices, because you remember, Cuba's economy was dependent 1:15:49.000 --> 1:15:53.439 on sugar and tobacco and coffee. They also formed the 1:15:53.560 --> 1:15:57.360 Archist sutter is the confederaci Nacional de Tobajo or a 1:15:57.439 --> 1:16:02.519 national confederation of workers. Following the Bolshevik victory in Russia. 1:16:03.120 --> 1:16:05.120 It took a minute for the world to find out 1:16:05.200 --> 1:16:08.040 what happened to all the anarchists in Russia. I mean, 1:16:08.080 --> 1:16:10.960 it was the nineteen twenties. They didn't have Twitter. But 1:16:11.720 --> 1:16:15.920 in the meantime, the anarchists sent a fraternal salute to 1:16:15.960 --> 1:16:20.280 the brothers who in Russia have established the USSR. Which 1:16:20.320 --> 1:16:20.879 is interesting. 1:16:20.960 --> 1:16:23.200 And ye, that is interesting. 1:16:23.920 --> 1:16:28.000 Yes, it's like a whole thing. Come in. 1:16:28.520 --> 1:16:30.639 It's exciting for the time though, right like you're seeing 1:16:30.640 --> 1:16:32.640 like this thing finally happen. You're like, oh, we have 1:16:32.720 --> 1:16:34.160 like we have like a real chance. 1:16:35.320 --> 1:16:36.920 Yeah. Yeah, but I mean I feel like it's like 1:16:36.960 --> 1:16:38.920 a two panel meme, you know, it's like the. 1:16:40.280 --> 1:16:44.240 Victory before the Yeah, very much. 1:16:45.520 --> 1:16:51.160 Yeah, yeah, I mean they knew that the anarchists. But 1:16:51.240 --> 1:16:53.240 they did know, of course, was the anarchists had a 1:16:53.320 --> 1:16:57.680 visible and vital role in that revolution. Absolutely reality that 1:16:57.760 --> 1:17:02.120 has unfortunately forgotten today but very well known back then. 1:17:03.040 --> 1:17:05.479 So the rise of the Soviets, it seemed as though 1:17:05.520 --> 1:17:10.640 the dream of three generations of struggles against the injustices 1:17:10.680 --> 1:17:15.000 of capitalism of the state had reached its conclusion. Again, 1:17:15.600 --> 1:17:17.400 they didn't know what happened to the Anarchists and the Lenin. 1:17:17.479 --> 1:17:20.960 Yet their attitude of jubilation towards the success of the 1:17:20.960 --> 1:17:26.519 Bolsheviks would of course change very shortly, but the anarchists 1:17:26.520 --> 1:17:30.120 in Cuba still had some hope in unity, though despite 1:17:30.160 --> 1:17:34.360 some debate amongst themselves about aligning with the Marxists in 1:17:34.400 --> 1:17:38.920 Cuba see At the time, the anarchost syndicalist movement was 1:17:39.040 --> 1:17:43.479 leading the formation of labor organizations and federations with figures 1:17:43.479 --> 1:17:47.519 like Alfredo Lopez and Antonio Pinichet, and while they were 1:17:47.600 --> 1:17:51.560 largely in favor of cross sectarian alliances and collaboration in 1:17:51.600 --> 1:17:55.960 the promotion of alternative education projects, and after the Congress 1:17:55.960 --> 1:17:59.920 of nineteen twenty Cuba's workers pressed their demands with renewed 1:18:00.120 --> 1:18:04.880 force in solidarity all together, leading to bombings and Havana 1:18:04.920 --> 1:18:08.800 and another general strike on medi Figures like Penichet and 1:18:08.840 --> 1:18:12.439 Salinas were jailed and a bomb was set off in 1:18:12.520 --> 1:18:17.200 the Teatro Nacional in protest. So Initially condemned to death, 1:18:17.840 --> 1:18:21.320 Penichet and Salinas were eventually pardoned and released at the 1:18:21.320 --> 1:18:24.880 beginning of nineteen twenty one, with the fall of Garcio 1:18:24.680 --> 1:18:31.400 Mencalists government. This is when Fedrozias's moderate government came into power, 1:18:31.720 --> 1:18:34.600 and this is when the Anarchos Syndicolas Feracion Oprera de 1:18:34.720 --> 1:18:39.479 la Habana or FOH or Workers Cleation of Havana was founded. 1:18:40.439 --> 1:18:44.720 The Workers Federation of Havana inaugurated its rational School and 1:18:44.880 --> 1:18:48.720 library in nineteen twenty two, aiming to counter public and 1:18:48.760 --> 1:18:53.840 private education emphasis on religion and patriotism. In nineteen twenty five, 1:18:54.280 --> 1:18:58.320 the second Congresso Nacional Oprero is celebrated in San Fuegos 1:18:58.720 --> 1:19:02.240 and the Confederacio Nacabrera the Cuba or National Confederation of 1:19:02.320 --> 1:19:06.960 Human Workers or SCENOC, is founded by anachosyndicalists in Kama Way. 1:19:08.160 --> 1:19:12.439 The SCENOC was a big tent organization, so although it 1:19:12.560 --> 1:19:17.160 was initially led by anachosyndicalists, there were reformists and Marxist 1:19:17.240 --> 1:19:20.160 elements in there as well, and you'll see the results 1:19:20.240 --> 1:19:24.840 of big tent organization very soon. Also nineteen twenty five, 1:19:25.320 --> 1:19:30.000 the Partido Communista Kubano or PCC was founded in Havana, 1:19:31.720 --> 1:19:34.240 and in nineteen twenty five there was a strike among 1:19:34.360 --> 1:19:38.000 railway and sugar workers which would provoke government repression and 1:19:38.080 --> 1:19:42.000 the nineteen twenty five Gerardo Machado would be elected to 1:19:42.040 --> 1:19:47.000 the office of presidency. Now pay attention to the PCC 1:19:47.360 --> 1:19:49.439 because they become relevant again later on. 1:19:49.960 --> 1:19:51.679 They're going to be a recurring character. 1:19:52.200 --> 1:19:58.880 Yes. So President Gerardo Machado's administration vowed to suppress worker militancy, 1:19:59.400 --> 1:20:02.920 lead into an another crackdown on foreigners and radicals, including 1:20:02.960 --> 1:20:06.439 the anarchist schools, and marking another decline of the anarchist 1:20:06.439 --> 1:20:12.120 movements influence. But despite repression under the Macharo dictatorship, anarchists 1:20:12.200 --> 1:20:16.719 continued to agitate, with some fleeing into exile and overall 1:20:16.800 --> 1:20:20.519 refusing to cooperate with the government. They founded militant groups 1:20:20.520 --> 1:20:25.640 such as Espartaco and Losildarios and later the Federation the 1:20:25.680 --> 1:20:30.960 Federacion de Groupos Anarchistas de Cuba or FGC. They engaged 1:20:31.000 --> 1:20:34.759 in street fighting against the government and also in several 1:20:34.840 --> 1:20:38.439 failed assassination attempts against Machado. I don't know what it 1:20:38.479 --> 1:20:41.000 is with Cuban leaders, but they seem to have trouble 1:20:41.560 --> 1:20:50.960 getting assassinated. So while the anarchists and I would like 1:20:51.000 --> 1:20:54.760 to give them the benefit of the doubt, presumably some 1:20:54.840 --> 1:20:58.920 Marxists were engaged in such resistance and I say presumably 1:20:58.960 --> 1:21:02.400 because I didn't they were into focus of my research. 1:21:02.680 --> 1:21:04.559 But from what I could see was the anarchists who 1:21:04.560 --> 1:21:10.760 were engaged in such resistance. Anyway, that's tangential. The operatives 1:21:10.800 --> 1:21:16.080 of the Popular Socialist Party or PSP chose to make 1:21:16.240 --> 1:21:19.960 compromises with the various dictatorial governments in order to be 1:21:20.080 --> 1:21:23.960 allowed control of the labor unions as well as some 1:21:24.000 --> 1:21:24.800 other pooks. 1:21:25.320 --> 1:21:28.040 Well, that doesn't sound like it could result in any problems. 1:21:28.920 --> 1:21:33.360 Yeah, so lock in here, okay. The PSP would later 1:21:33.400 --> 1:21:38.240 be absorbed by the organizac Revolution Scenarios in Tigradas, which 1:21:38.240 --> 1:21:42.840 would later become the Partido Unido de la Revolution Socialista 1:21:42.920 --> 1:21:48.320 the Cuba, which would later be refounded as the Partido 1:21:48.600 --> 1:21:54.760 Communista Gubano or PCC the Cuban Anarchists part cubas the 1:21:54.800 --> 1:21:55.880 Communist part of Cuba. 1:21:56.200 --> 1:21:58.280 There's like this weird loop happening here. 1:21:58.479 --> 1:22:02.360 Yes, yes, So the PSP would go on to become 1:22:02.520 --> 1:22:07.120 part of the PCC, even though when they were initially founded, 1:22:07.160 --> 1:22:10.519 the PSP and the PCC with separate organizations totally okay, 1:22:11.080 --> 1:22:14.360 So coming into the nineteen thirty Starting with nineteen thirty, 1:22:14.960 --> 1:22:18.960 a streetcar strike led to a general strike, backed by 1:22:19.080 --> 1:22:23.680 almost all of the unions. The strike failed, unfortunately due 1:22:23.720 --> 1:22:26.720 to a poor planning by the SCENOC, which had come 1:22:26.760 --> 1:22:30.160 into the hands of the PCC. You see, with the 1:22:30.200 --> 1:22:35.120 continuous deportation, exile and murder of anarchists by the Machado government, 1:22:35.680 --> 1:22:38.080 the Marxists and the SCENOC, who had been taken orders 1:22:38.080 --> 1:22:41.360 from the PCC the whole time, were told, Okay, now 1:22:41.360 --> 1:22:44.719 it's your chance, take advantage of the situation. The anarchists 1:22:44.720 --> 1:22:48.200 out of the way, let's take over the SCENOC. So 1:22:48.240 --> 1:22:51.839 in nineteen thirty three, another transportation strike breaks out in Havana, 1:22:51.920 --> 1:22:55.559 which leads to another general strike and further violence, and 1:22:55.680 --> 1:22:58.360 the PCC used their control over the SCENOC to make 1:22:58.400 --> 1:23:03.479 a deal with Mature Shado and the general strike, even 1:23:03.520 --> 1:23:06.840 though they were not the ones that started in the first. 1:23:06.520 --> 1:23:10.200 Place, making a deal to end a strike that they 1:23:10.200 --> 1:23:13.799 didn't start. Indeed, very very cool stuff. 1:23:14.400 --> 1:23:21.519 Now they called this real politic power move the August Eraror, 1:23:23.920 --> 1:23:26.400 But to me, that's way too soft considering what they did. 1:23:26.720 --> 1:23:29.320 You see, it was no mayor whoopsie. You know. The 1:23:29.320 --> 1:23:32.760 PCC ordered the strike and workers to return to their 1:23:32.840 --> 1:23:36.759 jobs and they tried to work with Machado's murderous secret 1:23:36.800 --> 1:23:38.200 police to make that happen. 1:23:38.479 --> 1:23:45.640 No, it's it's just like counterinsurgency. 1:23:47.080 --> 1:23:51.120 Thankfully, the PCC's attempt to sick my shadows dogs on 1:23:51.160 --> 1:23:55.040 the strike and workers failed due to the resistance of 1:23:55.080 --> 1:23:58.400 the anarchists of the Havana Federation of Labor and other 1:23:58.720 --> 1:23:59.960 organized labor forces. 1:24:00.400 --> 1:24:03.800 It's it's funny how like it's it's not the same 1:24:03.880 --> 1:24:06.320 things happen now, I guess, but very similar things happen 1:24:06.360 --> 1:24:08.639 while you have like these like big above ground kind 1:24:08.680 --> 1:24:12.000 of orgs. They'll try to make concessions with with like 1:24:12.040 --> 1:24:15.160 whether that's like like police or with like whatever kind 1:24:15.160 --> 1:24:18.400 of institution that people are like opposing. They'll have these 1:24:18.479 --> 1:24:21.680 these big, like you know, big groups trying trying to 1:24:21.680 --> 1:24:24.080 make concessions, and it's always left to the anarchists to 1:24:24.120 --> 1:24:27.439 be like, no, we actually have to keep fighting. This 1:24:27.479 --> 1:24:30.519 actually doesn't this sort of this this this sort of 1:24:30.560 --> 1:24:33.360 like attempts at calling like victory or trying to end 1:24:33.400 --> 1:24:36.600 things actually is not what you claim it to be, 1:24:36.680 --> 1:24:39.639 and we have to keep going. And it's is something 1:24:39.680 --> 1:24:42.439 that always falls back on like some of the more 1:24:42.479 --> 1:24:46.080 anarchist aligned contingents in popular struggles. 1:24:46.240 --> 1:24:48.720 Yeah, and I see why the why the old anarchists 1:24:48.720 --> 1:24:52.400 get a bit jaded and crotchet tea, you know, because yeah, 1:24:52.560 --> 1:24:55.360 you see these feelings happening again and again, Like why 1:24:55.479 --> 1:24:57.479 you cheer in, you know, like you have not one 1:24:58.240 --> 1:25:01.519 you know, this is not a victory. This is the 1:25:01.880 --> 1:25:09.160 precursor to squad wipe, to like absolute defeat. You know, yeah, 1:25:09.360 --> 1:25:14.800 game over. But unfortunately some people have to to learn, 1:25:15.080 --> 1:25:19.880 it seems. Unfortunately, until we speak more prominently of the 1:25:19.920 --> 1:25:22.519 mistakes of the past, more honestly of the mistakes of 1:25:22.520 --> 1:25:25.680 the past, instead of this sort of whitewashed oh the 1:25:25.720 --> 1:25:30.919 glorious revolutionary movements of the past. Oh, you know, like wow, 1:25:31.080 --> 1:25:34.120 so cool. Until we start to like engage honest without 1:25:34.160 --> 1:25:36.400 history and like the mistakes and whatnot, these kind of 1:25:36.439 --> 1:25:38.720 things are just going to continue to happen, you know. 1:25:39.640 --> 1:25:42.360 And that's why I also appreciate, you know, the sort 1:25:42.360 --> 1:25:44.600 of honesty that anarchists have, where they'll be willing to 1:25:44.600 --> 1:25:46.880 call I mean not not all you know, especially new 1:25:46.920 --> 1:25:50.360 anarchists tend to be more defensive, but and I appreciate 1:25:50.360 --> 1:25:53.960 the willness to call out like what the CNT did 1:25:54.520 --> 1:25:56.599 in Spain that was wrong, or what the Black Arm 1:25:56.640 --> 1:25:57.960 in Ukraine did that was wrong. 1:25:58.000 --> 1:26:00.280 You know, we don't have to follow a lot like 1:26:00.280 --> 1:26:01.360 the party line. 1:26:02.120 --> 1:26:03.719 Sweeping like you have to defend their honor. 1:26:04.800 --> 1:26:07.880 Yeah, exactly, we don't have to like follow along the 1:26:07.920 --> 1:26:10.280 party line in the same way that all these other 1:26:10.320 --> 1:26:14.040 groups seem to do. There is a much more open 1:26:14.120 --> 1:26:17.280 consideration towards critiquing things that even you feel like you 1:26:17.320 --> 1:26:19.160 can learn from and you feel like we're like like 1:26:19.200 --> 1:26:22.280 struggles like struggles worth learning from and struggles worth fighting for. 1:26:22.720 --> 1:26:24.519 But you don't have this the need to be like 1:26:25.040 --> 1:26:28.639 you have to defend every single thing that X person 1:26:28.720 --> 1:26:31.960 did because it's like, I know it, it gets it 1:26:32.320 --> 1:26:37.080 gets very weird when you have these like nineteen year 1:26:37.120 --> 1:26:43.160 old communists who are like, no, Stalin's good actually, which 1:26:43.200 --> 1:26:46.840 is a whole other topic, but but yeah, even in 1:26:46.840 --> 1:26:50.639 like smaller scale things, just the resistance to having to 1:26:50.640 --> 1:26:53.080 to adhere to the party line on a lot of 1:26:53.120 --> 1:26:55.439 a lot of these topics when you just don't have 1:26:55.479 --> 1:26:58.080 a party so it allows you to be way more 1:26:58.080 --> 1:27:01.479 open in your consideration of what has worked, what hasn't worked. 1:27:01.920 --> 1:27:03.760 Yeah, free association for the win. 1:27:04.400 --> 1:27:07.680 I don't have a funny ad pivot based on free association. 1:27:08.080 --> 1:27:11.600 But here's some ads that you can freely listen to 1:27:11.640 --> 1:27:12.360 if you desire. 1:27:23.200 --> 1:27:23.920 All right, we're back. 1:27:24.600 --> 1:27:28.000 So the very same month that the PCC tried and 1:27:28.080 --> 1:27:30.599 failed to call off a strike that they never started 1:27:30.600 --> 1:27:34.519 in the first place, Machado was forced from office by 1:27:34.520 --> 1:27:37.400 a military coup backed by the US working with several 1:27:37.439 --> 1:27:41.479 political factions, including the PCC. So the PCC was kind 1:27:41.479 --> 1:27:43.760 of playing both sides. They were like, yeah, let's let's 1:27:43.800 --> 1:27:46.639 work with Machado, and then that's also like help over 1:27:46.720 --> 1:27:52.800 through Machado a lot of stings. Huh, very interesting. Yeah, 1:27:53.040 --> 1:27:55.840 So that coup, along with the nineteen thirty three revolution, 1:27:55.960 --> 1:27:58.439 it was part of resulting from the opposition of the 1:27:58.520 --> 1:28:01.400 human people to President MacHall those attempts to keep himself 1:28:01.439 --> 1:28:04.960 in power with flames further fanned by the widespread misery 1:28:05.080 --> 1:28:08.800 caused by the economic collapse of nineteen twenty nine. Anarchists were, 1:28:08.880 --> 1:28:12.280 of course participants in the strikes and the revolutionary actions 1:28:12.360 --> 1:28:16.519 during this time. Military forces and student activists were also 1:28:16.640 --> 1:28:21.760 very much involved. So Carlos Manuel de Sispires i Quesada 1:28:21.920 --> 1:28:25.200 came to lead a provisional government which led to the 1:28:25.200 --> 1:28:27.519 installation of a new government led by a five man 1:28:27.560 --> 1:28:30.960 coalition known as the Pentarchy of nineteen twenty three. But 1:28:31.200 --> 1:28:33.680 after only five days, the Pentarchy gave way to the 1:28:33.680 --> 1:28:37.479 presidency of Ramon Grau San Martin, whose term became known 1:28:37.520 --> 1:28:42.080 as the one hundred Days Government for obvious reasons. It 1:28:42.080 --> 1:28:45.639 really only lasted about one hundred days because it decided 1:28:45.720 --> 1:28:49.040 to defy the US and remove the Platinum nment from 1:28:49.080 --> 1:28:52.559 the Cuban constitution, and it also introduced the eight hour 1:28:52.640 --> 1:28:55.920 workday and tried to intervene in the American owned electrical 1:28:55.960 --> 1:29:00.759 and telephone utility companies. But before you sell that government 1:29:00.840 --> 1:29:03.360 as a champion of the work in people, it also 1:29:03.439 --> 1:29:06.920 contributed to the suppression of the Cuban anarchist movement, which 1:29:07.040 --> 1:29:10.560 had a significant foreign born labor base, with the introduction 1:29:10.760 --> 1:29:14.160 of the fifty percent law, which forced owners to reserve 1:29:14.240 --> 1:29:18.240 at least half their jobs for Cubans. That law prompted 1:29:18.400 --> 1:29:21.120 many of the Spanish anarchists, remember they were a very 1:29:21.120 --> 1:29:24.400 prominent part of the anarchist movement in Cuba. That prompted 1:29:24.439 --> 1:29:27.360 them to return to Spain, where as you may know, 1:29:27.560 --> 1:29:30.960 a civil war would kick off rather soon, so the 1:29:31.040 --> 1:29:33.600 leader of the revolt against one hundred Days Government was 1:29:33.720 --> 1:29:38.679 Sergeant Fulgencio Battista, who became the head of the armed 1:29:38.680 --> 1:29:43.040 Forces and began a long period of influence on Cuban politics. 1:29:44.080 --> 1:29:46.680 The summer of nineteen thirty three obviously marked the end 1:29:46.680 --> 1:29:51.559 of the cooperative relationship between Cuban anarchists and communists, you know, 1:29:51.680 --> 1:29:56.160 because of the whole PCC sicond matalist dogs and the 1:29:56.200 --> 1:29:57.040 anarchists and all that. 1:29:57.360 --> 1:29:59.400 Yeah, I could see that being non conducive to a 1:29:59.439 --> 1:29:59.880 working part. 1:30:00.720 --> 1:30:04.160 It's a toxic, toxic situation, you know. They had. They'll 1:30:04.200 --> 1:30:10.120 have to copearents they labor movement separately. Anyway, say a 1:30:10.240 --> 1:30:12.439 violence when you rere up between the two groups. The 1:30:12.720 --> 1:30:17.599 Federacion de Groupos and Akista's de Cuba or FGEC published 1:30:17.600 --> 1:30:21.400 a manifesto denouncing the traitor's actions of the PCC in 1:30:21.479 --> 1:30:26.880 collaboration with Minchado. In nineteen thirty five, the PCC exposed 1:30:26.920 --> 1:30:32.639 its alignment for all to see see after Bautista basically 1:30:32.680 --> 1:30:36.240 told the PCC, yeah, don't call a general strike. After 1:30:36.280 --> 1:30:38.720 the PCs he tried to call a general strike, the 1:30:38.760 --> 1:30:41.160 PCC was like, Okay, we won't call a general strike, 1:30:41.280 --> 1:30:45.439 and then the PCC adopted Moscow's popular front line and 1:30:45.520 --> 1:30:49.880 basically aligned themselves with Batista. And what's interesting is, you see, 1:30:50.360 --> 1:30:55.479 but what Bosistera desperately needed to secure his legitimacy was 1:30:55.520 --> 1:30:59.439 an electoral base. Basically, he needed a large group of 1:30:59.479 --> 1:31:02.200 people to say we back his leadership. 1:31:02.439 --> 1:31:05.880 Sure, he needed some form of like legitimacy exactly. 1:31:07.280 --> 1:31:12.120 And so the PCC, in aligning themselves with Batista, they 1:31:12.200 --> 1:31:17.760 created that electoral base for his growing secretorial ambitions. You see, 1:31:17.800 --> 1:31:20.000 he started off as a president before he became like 1:31:20.000 --> 1:31:23.879 a full on dictator. Many such cases, many such cases. 1:31:24.360 --> 1:31:26.639 And the one of the historians I was telling you about, 1:31:26.680 --> 1:31:32.400 Fernando Fernandez, he wrote that the PCC actually offered Batista 1:31:32.520 --> 1:31:35.559 a deal, put in all of the machinery of Cuban 1:31:35.680 --> 1:31:40.360 and international communism at his service, and it promised to 1:31:40.400 --> 1:31:44.080 deliver votes in the coming elections, which Batista badly needed. 1:31:44.920 --> 1:31:48.679 In exchange, the PCC was to be given the recently 1:31:48.840 --> 1:31:54.120 government created Confederaci Tahadoris to Cuba, the CTC, the Cuban 1:31:54.160 --> 1:31:57.160 Confederation of Workers, and the CTC was basically meant to 1:31:57.160 --> 1:32:01.559 be the largest, most centralized Levo organization in Cuba. One 1:32:01.560 --> 1:32:04.160 they would combine all of the existing factions. 1:32:04.360 --> 1:32:05.840 Okay that yeah, yeah, yeah. 1:32:06.760 --> 1:32:09.880 And unlike the previous umbrella organization, which as you may remember, 1:32:10.000 --> 1:32:14.440 was the SCENOC, the CTC was meant to be ideological. 1:32:14.479 --> 1:32:18.000 It was meant to marry unionism to the state. It 1:32:18.040 --> 1:32:20.559 was meant to be under the control of Batista through 1:32:20.600 --> 1:32:23.599 the PCC from the very beginning. You know, the Seaknocks 1:32:23.600 --> 1:32:25.680 started off being led by anarchos syndicalists, but it was 1:32:25.760 --> 1:32:27.880 big ten so it was like, you know, bringing all 1:32:27.880 --> 1:32:31.320 the ideologies, but no, the CTC is like, yeah, we. 1:32:31.200 --> 1:32:33.240 Are explicitly stayed aligned. 1:32:33.640 --> 1:32:37.040 Yeah. Meanwhile, you know, in nineteen thirty six, the Spanish 1:32:37.040 --> 1:32:39.760 Civil War would erupt, and you know, the Cuban anarchists 1:32:39.800 --> 1:32:43.400 who when solidarity with the Spanish anarchists, would establish the 1:32:43.520 --> 1:32:48.240 Solidary Dad Internacional Anti anti Fascista to aid them, and 1:32:48.280 --> 1:32:51.240 some of them even went to Spain to participate. But 1:32:51.479 --> 1:32:54.280 by nineteen thirty nine, with the defeat of the Spanish Republic, 1:32:54.640 --> 1:32:57.599 surviving Cuban anarchists returned to the island. 1:32:59.479 --> 1:33:02.080 In the nineteen forties, It's interesting because when they returned, 1:33:02.120 --> 1:33:06.639 they also returned with a lot more like experience as well. Indeed, 1:33:06.960 --> 1:33:09.519 I wonder if that will lead to anything. 1:33:11.800 --> 1:33:12.360 We'll see. 1:33:12.600 --> 1:33:13.440 Curious. 1:33:14.720 --> 1:33:18.120 So, in the nineteen forties, over one hundred delegates met 1:33:18.240 --> 1:33:23.519 at the Mortazo ranch to establish the Associacion Libertaria the 1:33:23.600 --> 1:33:29.879 Cuba or ALC. Since the Stalinist dominated CTC had purged 1:33:29.920 --> 1:33:34.160 anarchists and other militant labor activists, the ALC was formed 1:33:34.200 --> 1:33:38.240 to challenge state control and Stalinists influence within the labor movement. 1:33:39.040 --> 1:33:42.120 The ALC held a congress attended by one hundred and 1:33:42.120 --> 1:33:45.120 fifty five delegates in nineteen forty eight, and in that 1:33:45.240 --> 1:33:48.559 congress it discussed the creation of a libertarian society in Cuba, 1:33:48.880 --> 1:33:52.280 and they established the Solidary Dad Gastronomica, which was a 1:33:52.280 --> 1:33:57.280 publication meant to serve as their official organ. Carlos Prio 1:33:57.360 --> 1:34:02.080 Socaras assumed the QAN presidency in nineteen forty eight following 1:34:02.120 --> 1:34:05.920 the presidency of Ramon Grau San Martin, because he actually 1:34:05.960 --> 1:34:08.519 got another chance to be president after one hundred day's government, 1:34:09.040 --> 1:34:11.360 and then you had a few filler presidents after that, 1:34:11.960 --> 1:34:15.920 and then you had Batista's run as president. But anyway, 1:34:15.960 --> 1:34:19.719 so Prio becomes president and the anarchists try and fail 1:34:19.840 --> 1:34:23.679 to create a new labor confederation. The Confederaci in general 1:34:23.760 --> 1:34:27.400 the Tagories was CGT and it was meant to be 1:34:27.560 --> 1:34:32.680 independent of the CTC. Unfortunately, thanks to reformist elements, the 1:34:32.720 --> 1:34:36.920 Stalinists and the government, it suffered under an extensive propaganda 1:34:36.960 --> 1:34:40.519 campaign against the initiative in both the Cuban communications media 1:34:41.000 --> 1:34:45.640 and then the officially approved unions. But despite everything, the 1:34:45.680 --> 1:34:48.840 anarchists were enduring on the grassroots level, and they were 1:34:48.840 --> 1:34:54.240 anarchist militants scattered everywhere and anarchist propagandists in every provincial capital. 1:34:55.680 --> 1:34:59.000 By the way, it is interesting that the Stalinists would 1:34:59.080 --> 1:35:02.040 gleefully purge the anarchists to appease their own phase for 1:35:02.120 --> 1:35:06.120 power earlier in the decade, considering that they themselves would 1:35:06.160 --> 1:35:08.800 be expelled from their posts in the CTC by the 1:35:08.840 --> 1:35:14.400 government Under US pressure, PreO declared the PSP illegal, motivating 1:35:14.439 --> 1:35:18.280 the Stylists to eye themselves yet again with their old body, 1:35:19.080 --> 1:35:24.880 old pal Fulgencio Batista. In nineteen fifty, the ALC would 1:35:24.880 --> 1:35:28.160 hold another congress, a meant to reorganize the Cuban union 1:35:28.360 --> 1:35:33.320 movements against its control by bureaucrats, politicians, cults, and religionists. 1:35:34.360 --> 1:35:37.960 The Congress repudiated the CTC and dedicated itself to maintain 1:35:38.040 --> 1:35:42.280 the CGT's struggle in spite of President Prio's repression. In 1:35:42.360 --> 1:35:46.040 nineteen fifty two, Batista took power in a coup, and 1:35:46.080 --> 1:35:49.240 the LC joined other revolutionary groups in armed resistance to 1:35:49.240 --> 1:35:54.160 the dictatorship in the cities and the countryside. Despite facing imprisonment, torture, 1:35:54.200 --> 1:35:59.959 and kidnapping, they challenged Batista's rule through propaganda, distribution, Klandestine activity, 1:36:00.479 --> 1:36:04.479 and coordinated sabotage efforts. They even worked with groups like 1:36:04.479 --> 1:36:09.240 the Directorial Revoluse Scenario, the Federation of University Students, and 1:36:09.360 --> 1:36:13.800 elements within castorerst Group, the M twenty sixth G the 1:36:13.840 --> 1:36:17.000 Antony sixth J. By the way, despite taking credit for everything, 1:36:17.640 --> 1:36:20.320 had little to no involvement in many of the uprisings 1:36:20.360 --> 1:36:23.400 that took place in this period. They tried at one 1:36:23.479 --> 1:36:26.639 point to call a general strike, but it was badly 1:36:26.760 --> 1:36:30.760 organized and uncoordinated with other revolutionary groups, so you know, 1:36:30.760 --> 1:36:34.360 of course it failed. Meanwhile, the ALC's meeting hole not 1:36:34.400 --> 1:36:38.320 only distributed information and coordinated sabotage efforts, but even taught 1:36:38.320 --> 1:36:40.920 some of Castro's fighters how to shoot firearms. 1:36:41.160 --> 1:36:43.880 Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. 1:36:44.520 --> 1:36:48.439 By December thirty first, nineteen fifty eight. Also, it's very 1:36:48.479 --> 1:36:50.639 sad that they would teach some of Castro's fighters how 1:36:50.680 --> 1:36:54.240 to shoot firearms, considering you know, the direction those firearms 1:36:54.240 --> 1:36:55.439 we shoot. It end very soon. 1:36:55.800 --> 1:36:59.160 Yes, that is tragically ironic. 1:37:01.200 --> 1:37:05.080 So December their first, nineteen fifty eight, Batista flees Cuba, 1:37:05.240 --> 1:37:07.479 marking the end of his regime and the beginning of 1:37:07.520 --> 1:37:11.879 a new era. As Castro's revolutionary government gain power, tensions 1:37:11.920 --> 1:37:15.799 would rise as he consolidated control and marginalized dissent in voices. 1:37:16.600 --> 1:37:19.559 Any hope anarchists had for social change following nineteen fifty 1:37:19.640 --> 1:37:23.280 nine would be crushed by the increase in centralization, bureaucraticization 1:37:23.400 --> 1:37:27.320 of the government, further purges of anarchists from the CTC, which, 1:37:27.439 --> 1:37:30.840 by the way, they renamed the CTC R as in 1:37:31.040 --> 1:37:38.439 CTC Revolutionary, and they also militarized. And they also militarized it. 1:37:38.479 --> 1:37:40.200 You know, if they forced a bunch of the workers 1:37:40.240 --> 1:37:44.840 to create militias, and you know, with Castro's public alignment 1:37:44.880 --> 1:37:49.080 with Marxism Leninism, the suppression the revolutionary tribunals and the 1:37:49.120 --> 1:37:53.759 exile of anarchists and other dissidents. In January nineteen sixty, 1:37:53.800 --> 1:37:56.680 the ALC held an assembly and expressed support for the 1:37:56.720 --> 1:38:01.519 Cuban Revolution while rejecting dictatorship everywhere. By the end of 1:38:01.520 --> 1:38:04.640 the year, stud published the final issue of their publication, 1:38:04.920 --> 1:38:09.719 So darry Dad Gatunomica. The LC fell under government pressure, 1:38:11.160 --> 1:38:16.320 and unlike previous Cuban governments, Castro's regime was extra blood 1:38:16.360 --> 1:38:21.120 thirsty with the working class and peasant dissenters. That same year, 1:38:21.720 --> 1:38:25.600 the Grupo the Sindecalistas Libertarios is suited document criticizing the 1:38:25.600 --> 1:38:30.800 Cuban government's direction. Fearing the increase in totalitarianism, they had 1:38:30.800 --> 1:38:35.040 to change their name to avoid reprisals. As a pecc's organ, 1:38:35.280 --> 1:38:39.920 OI responded to the group O the Snekalistas Libertarios document 1:38:40.040 --> 1:38:45.000 with insults and accusations. That same year, the movie Miento 1:38:45.400 --> 1:38:49.639 Deaccion Syndical began circulating a bulletin critical of the PCC 1:38:49.880 --> 1:38:54.759 and Castro. They too would be suppressed. After the failed 1:38:54.840 --> 1:38:58.519 Bay of Pigs invasion in nineteen sixty one, Castro's government 1:38:58.640 --> 1:39:03.679 intensified its suppression of opposition, including anarchists. The anarchist movement 1:39:03.760 --> 1:39:08.600 also bore a terrible betrayal as Manuel Guiona Susa, a 1:39:08.800 --> 1:39:13.080 prominent anarchist, betrayed his comrades by endorsing the cashier regime 1:39:13.400 --> 1:39:16.720 and denouncing the anarchists who opposed it. Some anarists would 1:39:16.760 --> 1:39:20.080 end up in prison somewhat fled to Florida, where they 1:39:20.120 --> 1:39:22.800 would unfortunately be grouped to the Batista supporters who would 1:39:22.800 --> 1:39:26.560 also fled to Florida at that time, and an international 1:39:26.600 --> 1:39:31.080 solidarity effort emerged with donations from various anarchist groups worldwide 1:39:31.360 --> 1:39:44.719 to aid the Cuban anarchists escape. The anarchists that fled 1:39:44.720 --> 1:39:49.439 to Cure formed the Movimiento Libertario Cubano in Exilio the 1:39:49.560 --> 1:39:53.880 mcl or Cuban anarchist movement in exile, and continued to 1:39:53.920 --> 1:39:58.840 advocate for anarchist principles to publications like Guangara Libertaria. The 1:39:58.880 --> 1:40:02.800 New York based Libertarian League, led by figures like Sam Dogoff, 1:40:03.200 --> 1:40:07.559 provided critical support to these exiles. But what really sucks 1:40:08.680 --> 1:40:11.400 the Cuban anarchists had to struggle to garner support from 1:40:11.439 --> 1:40:14.360 their fellow anarchists around the world. Thanks to the propaganda 1:40:14.360 --> 1:40:18.360 efforts to the Castro regime. The Cuman anarchists was made 1:40:18.960 --> 1:40:23.400 as CIA agents, which is umi recoll still a favorite 1:40:23.439 --> 1:40:25.960 tactic of campus authoritarians. 1:40:25.960 --> 1:40:29.639 Interesting and yeah, interesting to see how it's literally the same. 1:40:30.640 --> 1:40:30.960 Yeah. 1:40:31.320 --> 1:40:34.400 In fact, one anarchist group in South America, the Federacion 1:40:34.439 --> 1:40:40.240 Anarchista Uruguaya, even split between pro and anti Castro factions. 1:40:41.360 --> 1:40:44.799 The procast Room majority went on to join the Marxist 1:40:44.840 --> 1:40:52.400 Lendinis Supermaros in Yuguay. Eventually the Federrazion Anachika Italiana. The 1:40:52.479 --> 1:40:58.639 FAIT organized a conference in Bologna in nineteen sixty five 1:40:58.840 --> 1:41:02.280 to address the confusion among anarchists globally regarded in Cuba. 1:41:03.320 --> 1:41:07.160 They came out of that conference condemning casteurism and express 1:41:07.160 --> 1:41:10.080 in support for Cuban anarchists. But despite the efforts of 1:41:10.120 --> 1:41:14.000 Abelardo I Glasias to present the Cuban anarchists viewpoint, many 1:41:14.040 --> 1:41:16.960 anarchist groups in Europe and Latin Americas still aligned with 1:41:17.040 --> 1:41:21.040 casteurism view and criticism of the regime as opposition to 1:41:21.080 --> 1:41:24.800 the broader socialist revolution. But despite the skepticism of their 1:41:24.840 --> 1:41:27.840 payers and the refusal of some anarchist publications to even 1:41:27.960 --> 1:41:32.040 hear them out. The Cuban anarchists continued the activism in exile. 1:41:32.520 --> 1:41:35.240 They published works to denounce in the Castier regime and 1:41:35.320 --> 1:41:38.240 sought to clarify their position within the global anarchist movement. 1:41:39.080 --> 1:41:42.840 Back in Cuba, the remaining anarchists dwindled in size, as 1:41:42.920 --> 1:41:48.000 most had either left or rotten in prison. In the 1:41:48.040 --> 1:41:52.400 seventies and beyond, the Cuban anarchists faced isolation and defamation. 1:41:53.360 --> 1:41:56.320 They still accused this day of being in service of reaction. 1:41:57.200 --> 1:42:00.400 It's only with Sam Dolkov's book The Cuban Revolution Critical 1:42:00.400 --> 1:42:03.879 Perspective in nineteen seventy six that attitudes began to shift 1:42:04.200 --> 1:42:07.559 reade into a gradual reassessment of the MLCE within the 1:42:07.560 --> 1:42:12.200 anarchist community. In nineteen seventy nine, the MLSE renewed ties 1:42:12.240 --> 1:42:18.000 with the Anarchist Confederacio National Debajo, SASH Association International Rosador 1:42:18.240 --> 1:42:23.280 the CNTIT during to congress in Madrid. Subsequent publications and 1:42:23.400 --> 1:42:28.200 articles further clarified the mlce's position and cashtroism, marking the 1:42:28.360 --> 1:42:34.720 end of a long and damaging chapter of derision against them. 1:42:35.040 --> 1:42:39.240 In nineteen eighty, Guangara Libertaria emerged as a new platform 1:42:39.280 --> 1:42:43.360 for Cuban anarchists in exile. Initially cautious in its advocacy 1:42:44.160 --> 1:42:48.440 due to the hostile political climate in Miami, Guangara gradually 1:42:48.439 --> 1:42:52.719 became more explicitly anarchist and critical of both Castros regime 1:42:53.160 --> 1:42:57.120 and the reactionary exile community. It played a significant role 1:42:57.160 --> 1:43:02.680 in challenging Procastro narratives and fostering international solidarity among anarchists. 1:43:03.600 --> 1:43:07.000 As of recently as in the twenty first century, the 1:43:07.080 --> 1:43:12.240 Taire Libertario Alfreedro Lopez or Alfero Lopez Libertarian Workshop has 1:43:12.240 --> 1:43:15.560 published a few pieces on anarchism in the Cuban context. 1:43:16.160 --> 1:43:18.400 They even took part in the creation of the Central 1:43:18.439 --> 1:43:22.880 American and Caribbean Anarchist Federation, And before anyone asks, I 1:43:22.880 --> 1:43:25.000 haven't found a way to get in contact with them yet. 1:43:25.320 --> 1:43:28.840 The recent decentralized protests in Cuba sparked a deluge of 1:43:28.920 --> 1:43:32.960 conflicting narratives from various sources. We're on one side, Cuban 1:43:32.960 --> 1:43:36.920 authorities and leftist supporters defended the regime, blaming the economic 1:43:36.920 --> 1:43:39.920 crisis and health challenges on the US blockade, while treating 1:43:39.920 --> 1:43:43.559 Cuban critics with one broad reactionary brush. On the other, hand, 1:43:43.640 --> 1:43:45.800 we had the right wing media criticizing the lack of 1:43:45.840 --> 1:43:50.880 freedoms under the communist government. While amidst this, anarchists sought 1:43:50.920 --> 1:43:55.200 a deeper understanding, seeking neither alignment with the US nor 1:43:55.240 --> 1:43:58.400 the Cuban government, but seeking understanding of the needs of 1:43:58.400 --> 1:44:01.480 the people frustrated by the poser pandemic and the failures 1:44:01.520 --> 1:44:05.240 of the government. The condition that Cuba is in now 1:44:05.520 --> 1:44:08.480 obviously is due to the impact of the US's blockade, 1:44:08.800 --> 1:44:12.519 which should be lifted immediately, but it shouldn't be missed 1:44:12.520 --> 1:44:15.840 that the government uses the blockade to divert attention from 1:44:15.840 --> 1:44:21.799 other matters where it does deserve significant critique. Emergency measures 1:44:21.840 --> 1:44:26.000 were eventually implemented appease the protesters, but it remains to 1:44:26.000 --> 1:44:28.040 be seen what the outcome of that frustration of the 1:44:28.040 --> 1:44:32.160 people will be in the long term. As Francisco Finandez 1:44:32.200 --> 1:44:35.920 wrote in Cuban Anarchism, The History of a Movement, hopefully 1:44:36.240 --> 1:44:38.280 there are those in this generation who will take up 1:44:38.280 --> 1:44:40.960 the legacy of their forebearers so that the roots of 1:44:40.960 --> 1:44:43.920 anarchism that are now buried in the fertile Cuban soil 1:44:44.240 --> 1:44:48.040 will once again spring to life. Anyway, this has been 1:44:48.200 --> 1:44:52.080 the forgotten history of anarchism in Cuba. This has been 1:44:52.400 --> 1:44:55.240 it could happen here, and this has been Andrew's age. 1:44:55.800 --> 1:44:58.240 All power to all the people. Peace. 1:45:12.479 --> 1:45:14.920 Welcome to it could happen here. A podcast where my 1:45:14.960 --> 1:45:17.719 old bookstore from college is unionized and I'm very excited 1:45:17.760 --> 1:45:21.360 about it. I'm your host, Bio Wong, and with me 1:45:21.439 --> 1:45:24.920 to talk about this this tremendous event are Caleb Theo 1:45:25.040 --> 1:45:28.599 and Finn from the Seminary co Op Booksellers Union. Yeah, 1:45:28.680 --> 1:45:29.479 welcome to the show. 1:45:30.760 --> 1:45:32.960 Thank you, thank so much for having us. This is 1:45:33.000 --> 1:45:34.000 so excited you. 1:45:35.360 --> 1:45:38.120 Yeah, I'm excited to you both because I think somehow 1:45:38.720 --> 1:45:41.479 in the molt that I got almost three years I've 1:45:41.479 --> 1:45:44.880 been doing this show now, Jesus Christ, that is terrifying. Somehow, 1:45:45.080 --> 1:45:47.680 I think this is the first bookstore union we've talked to, 1:45:48.360 --> 1:45:51.360 which is remarkable. I don't know how it's taken this long, 1:45:51.439 --> 1:45:53.879 but I'm so excited that y'all that y'all the first. 1:45:55.360 --> 1:45:57.120 I mean, as far as we know, we're the first 1:45:57.120 --> 1:45:58.280 in the city of Chicago. 1:45:58.960 --> 1:46:00.080 Hell yeah, we're. 1:46:00.160 --> 1:46:03.560 The only in the city. There are like past bookstores 1:46:03.560 --> 1:46:07.800 that have since closed which were unionized. But yeah, as 1:46:07.800 --> 1:46:10.519 best we know we're now we're currently the only union 1:46:10.520 --> 1:46:13.240 bookstore in the city of Chicago, proper. 1:46:15.560 --> 1:46:18.000 God, maybe there's one up in Evanston or something, but 1:46:18.880 --> 1:46:22.040 seems unlikely. This is, this is I don't know. I've been, 1:46:22.080 --> 1:46:24.479 I've been. I've been drilling. I've been drilling the Evanston 1:46:24.600 --> 1:46:27.640 knowledge into my listeners' heads. Now, so now all of 1:46:27.680 --> 1:46:30.439 you people in Rhode Island or whatever know about my 1:46:30.560 --> 1:46:31.680 hatred of Evanston. 1:46:34.560 --> 1:46:38.040 An extremely fair grudge. 1:46:39.600 --> 1:46:43.519 Okay, So speaking of grudges, all right, sobody, co op 1:46:43.680 --> 1:46:46.559 is it's it's it's an interesting bookstore in the sense 1:46:46.560 --> 1:46:48.720 that like it's it's it is on the campus of 1:46:48.720 --> 1:46:51.439 the University of Chicago, like it's just it's just sort 1:46:51.479 --> 1:46:54.559 of there. And there's been a lot of things happening 1:46:55.840 --> 1:47:01.559 on that campus in the past month or so. But yeah, 1:47:01.680 --> 1:47:03.519 I guess what I wanted to I guess the place 1:47:03.560 --> 1:47:06.360 I wanted to start was sort of Okay, so you, 1:47:06.479 --> 1:47:09.240 Chicago is a campus that has a lot of union 1:47:09.320 --> 1:47:13.160 organizing happening on it in a bunch of across a 1:47:13.200 --> 1:47:17.280 bunch of different kind of they're mostly university unions, but 1:47:17.320 --> 1:47:19.120 a lot of different all different kinds of workers and 1:47:19.120 --> 1:47:22.000 the university have unions. How did that sort of impact 1:47:22.320 --> 1:47:23.880 the way this campaign started. 1:47:24.560 --> 1:47:29.880 That's a really good question. I I feel like there's 1:47:29.880 --> 1:47:31.679 a few things I want to talk about. I think 1:47:31.760 --> 1:47:38.640 there's the the fact that a lot of us booksellers 1:47:39.360 --> 1:47:42.120 who come to the sem co op were coming from 1:47:42.160 --> 1:47:46.400 Many of us came from New Chicago or had been 1:47:46.439 --> 1:47:48.439 there at some point and had been around that kind 1:47:48.479 --> 1:47:52.439 of organizing. So I think that that definitely has an impact. 1:47:53.720 --> 1:47:57.000 I also think that many of us know people because 1:47:57.080 --> 1:47:59.160 so many of us are in the community. We all 1:47:59.320 --> 1:48:02.680 know a lot of people who are organizers, a lot 1:48:02.680 --> 1:48:07.840 of people in the grad student union, and having them 1:48:07.880 --> 1:48:12.240 to talk to and kind of like bounce ideas off 1:48:12.280 --> 1:48:18.120 of and commiserate all of that has been really great. 1:48:20.320 --> 1:48:23.200 Yeah, And like I think it's been very emboldening to 1:48:23.320 --> 1:48:27.679 know that we have that support, you know that because 1:48:27.800 --> 1:48:32.920 we have friends and comrades and roommates in GSU, in 1:48:33.120 --> 1:48:36.160 faculty unions, you know, the kind of the whole time, 1:48:36.200 --> 1:48:39.599 we've known that, like if we ever need to draw 1:48:39.640 --> 1:48:43.080 on that external support for any kind of you know, 1:48:43.160 --> 1:48:47.840 public campaign, that we have like a connection to like 1:48:47.840 --> 1:48:51.519 a broader labor of movement in the area that'll be 1:48:51.560 --> 1:48:52.400 there for us. 1:48:52.720 --> 1:48:54.559 This is something I guess you've already touched on a bit, 1:48:54.600 --> 1:48:56.960 but I think this leads into another question that I had, 1:48:56.960 --> 1:48:59.840 which was, Yeah, I wanted to talk about the sort 1:48:59.840 --> 1:49:03.920 of the influence of campus and how how how the 1:49:04.000 --> 1:49:06.200 dynamics of that kind of change, what these what these 1:49:06.200 --> 1:49:07.000 campaigns look like. 1:49:09.200 --> 1:49:14.240 It's really interesting because our relationship to campus is a 1:49:14.280 --> 1:49:17.800 little bit unclear to us in terms of the way 1:49:17.800 --> 1:49:21.920 that the bookstore functions in relation to its university partners, 1:49:21.960 --> 1:49:24.400 because we work with them very closely. There are landlord 1:49:24.479 --> 1:49:29.320 among many other things, but we are not directly affiliated 1:49:29.360 --> 1:49:32.519 with them, and we carry course books, but that's by 1:49:32.600 --> 1:49:35.439 professor request and we can't always do it, and so 1:49:36.760 --> 1:49:41.880 it's a really close, really opaque relationship. 1:49:45.120 --> 1:49:46.960 I think the university. 1:49:47.960 --> 1:49:52.440 Really likes to have a bookstore that isn't like university 1:49:52.600 --> 1:49:56.639 affiliated on paper, but still very much is a part 1:49:56.680 --> 1:50:00.639 of the culture of the university, and so we see 1:50:00.680 --> 1:50:03.880 a lot of that kind of inform things like our 1:50:04.040 --> 1:50:08.519 stock and the events that the UH professors that we 1:50:08.640 --> 1:50:11.880 work with, and of course like the students who come 1:50:11.880 --> 1:50:14.840 in and use the space and are physically in the 1:50:14.840 --> 1:50:18.480 space every day doing work buying their books. 1:50:19.120 --> 1:50:22.800 It's it's always weird kind of doing organizing in these 1:50:22.840 --> 1:50:25.599 spaces because like I don't know, you you're you're dealing 1:50:25.680 --> 1:50:28.519 with this mixture. Well U Chicago especially is like this 1:50:28.560 --> 1:50:33.519 where there's it's this really kind of weird and volatile 1:50:33.600 --> 1:50:38.080 mixture of like a bunch of on the one hand, 1:50:38.120 --> 1:50:40.400 like a bunch of very brave, very committed like people 1:50:40.400 --> 1:50:42.120 who are doing organizing, a bunch of people who were 1:50:42.120 --> 1:50:44.479 just completely checked out, and then a bunch of people 1:50:44.479 --> 1:50:46.559 who are going to go lead cups in South America. 1:50:47.240 --> 1:50:53.800 And I don't know, it's it's it's a that was 1:50:53.840 --> 1:50:56.600 my experience back doing Actually god I was, I was 1:50:56.640 --> 1:50:59.040 on the GS. You pick it line, like, how God 1:50:59.240 --> 1:51:01.200 that was? That was half decade ago. Jesus Christ. Sorry, 1:51:01.240 --> 1:51:04.040 this is trying to geto the MIA thinks about our 1:51:04.040 --> 1:51:06.000 time that you should which it shouldn't. 1:51:08.320 --> 1:51:08.559 Yeah. 1:51:08.600 --> 1:51:13.439 But that's something that is notable too, is that, like 1:51:14.360 --> 1:51:18.000 we have a lot of community support when it comes 1:51:18.040 --> 1:51:22.080 to people who are theoretically in favor of unionizing and 1:51:22.120 --> 1:51:27.040 theoretically in favor of labor power, and that extends all 1:51:27.040 --> 1:51:30.519 the way through our management team, Like they are very 1:51:30.680 --> 1:51:35.200 very in favor of the concept of labor rights, and 1:51:35.360 --> 1:51:39.479 so it's really interesting trying to parse that dynamics sometimes 1:51:39.520 --> 1:51:42.240 of like, Okay, these are people who are supposedly our 1:51:42.640 --> 1:51:45.320 biggest supporters, but at the same time their actions do 1:51:45.400 --> 1:51:48.800 not very well line up with those ideals. 1:51:49.560 --> 1:51:52.519 I think having a section at our store that is 1:51:52.560 --> 1:51:57.120 devoted to critical theory and Marxism while not paying us 1:51:57.120 --> 1:52:01.040 a living wage is a real funny situation. 1:52:01.880 --> 1:52:03.519 The irony stings real hard. 1:52:04.640 --> 1:52:07.240 Yeah, it's this real Read the theory, do not act 1:52:07.280 --> 1:52:08.879 on it, but read the theory. 1:52:10.240 --> 1:52:14.040 It's been real fun. Like we during like your course 1:52:14.040 --> 1:52:16.160 book rush seasons, we have like sem co op trading 1:52:16.160 --> 1:52:19.720 cards with pictures of like different authors. It's always really 1:52:19.800 --> 1:52:22.040 fun handing out the ones that are like Carl Marx 1:52:22.120 --> 1:52:24.280 sem co ops number one best selling author. 1:52:28.520 --> 1:52:32.639 And no, it's definitely not because every freshman at University 1:52:32.680 --> 1:52:34.679 of Chicago has to buy him from us. 1:52:36.000 --> 1:52:39.200 Yeah, that's that's another that's like kind of unrelated, really 1:52:39.200 --> 1:52:42.479 funny thing. But yeah, like all of the Chicago econ 1:52:42.520 --> 1:52:46.439 dipshits at least nominally red marks. Did they open it 1:52:48.439 --> 1:52:51.639 low odds? But yeah, I don't know that that seems 1:52:51.640 --> 1:52:56.960 like a psychologically destabilizing contradiction that you're dealing with them all 1:52:57.000 --> 1:52:57.680 the time. 1:52:58.840 --> 1:53:03.440 That same kind of like contradiction between like spirit and practice. 1:53:03.880 --> 1:53:06.160 Just like it's also right there in our name where 1:53:06.200 --> 1:53:08.719 we're the Seminary co Op bookstore, and like two thirds 1:53:08.760 --> 1:53:11.680 of that is not true. We haven't been affiliated with 1:53:11.720 --> 1:53:15.720 the seminary in decades. We were for a time a 1:53:15.880 --> 1:53:18.280 member co op like RII, but we've never been a 1:53:18.280 --> 1:53:20.360 worker's co op. We haven't even been a member co 1:53:20.400 --> 1:53:24.320 op since twenty fourteen. We are a bookstore, So there's 1:53:24.400 --> 1:53:25.240 like that. 1:53:25.280 --> 1:53:28.799 But the old one in three eight bad being simply 1:53:28.840 --> 1:53:33.160 does not apply here. That is in fact very bad well. 1:53:33.320 --> 1:53:35.799 And I think that that is like a very big 1:53:35.840 --> 1:53:39.840 part of how the larger community sees our stores as well, 1:53:39.880 --> 1:53:43.120 and the like mismatch there because yeah, of course we're 1:53:43.160 --> 1:53:47.799 like on the Chicago campus. We are very much connected 1:53:47.840 --> 1:53:50.120 to the student body and the faculty there, but we're 1:53:50.120 --> 1:53:53.960 also like in the middle of like our neighborhood where 1:53:54.000 --> 1:53:56.240 there are plenty of other people who are not affiliated 1:53:56.240 --> 1:53:59.120 with the college who are like coming in buying their books. 1:53:59.200 --> 1:54:03.040 There's the fact that like our our second location down 1:54:03.120 --> 1:54:06.080 the street fifty seventh Street Books, which has like our 1:54:06.240 --> 1:54:10.719 kids sections and like a bunch of other less academic 1:54:10.760 --> 1:54:16.760 stuff like that's very heavily trafficked as well. And the 1:54:16.840 --> 1:54:23.840 communities understanding of us as a like worker owned not 1:54:23.840 --> 1:54:27.360 not for profit, which is a very confusing term because 1:54:27.360 --> 1:54:30.679 it's not a nonprofit, it's a not for profit. That 1:54:30.680 --> 1:54:35.960 that disconnect between what the community needs and wants in 1:54:36.120 --> 1:54:42.720 its bookstores and what the management has decided our bookstores 1:54:43.320 --> 1:54:45.800 mean to the community is it's felt. 1:54:46.280 --> 1:54:48.560 That's like a very felt mismatch. 1:54:50.360 --> 1:54:53.200 Yeah, so I'm assuming that that that's sort of the 1:54:53.280 --> 1:54:56.200 kinds of things that I mean, obviously the standard not 1:54:56.200 --> 1:54:58.160 getting paid off, et cetera, et cetera. Are those those 1:54:58.200 --> 1:55:00.839 are sort of things that led into how the organizing started. 1:55:02.240 --> 1:55:05.520 Yeah, I think it's a lot the way that like 1:55:05.600 --> 1:55:08.320 the mismatch is so apparent to us, and it really 1:55:08.360 --> 1:55:12.600 brought us together, Like we have such a unique sense 1:55:12.640 --> 1:55:15.600 of solidarity as a working cohort. I feel like there's 1:55:16.840 --> 1:55:20.360 a lot of commiseration because we walk a very weird 1:55:20.400 --> 1:55:24.080 line throughout our community, and so I think it's a 1:55:24.080 --> 1:55:27.640 little bit just trying to assess what's going on in 1:55:27.680 --> 1:55:31.400 our stores and like how does that compare to what 1:55:31.440 --> 1:55:34.120 management tells us on a regular basis, and shouldn't we 1:55:34.160 --> 1:55:35.200 be doing something about that? 1:55:36.080 --> 1:55:39.400 Yeah, I think that. I know that. 1:55:39.480 --> 1:55:43.480 Our first like big pre union meeting where we all 1:55:43.520 --> 1:55:46.760 got together in the basement of one of our houses 1:55:46.880 --> 1:55:52.440 and commiserated, was like after a pretty rough, like all 1:55:52.480 --> 1:55:55.360 store meeting that we had had in which we had 1:55:55.480 --> 1:55:59.720 continued to get really no response regarding questions about a 1:55:59.760 --> 1:56:06.120 living wage, or how we choose stock for our store, 1:56:06.440 --> 1:56:12.640 how communication between management and hourly booksellers was just so lacking, 1:56:13.400 --> 1:56:18.000 and we just got the same kind of messaging that 1:56:18.560 --> 1:56:23.480 was being given to customers, which is we're working on it. 1:56:24.720 --> 1:56:28.040 You're all of these things that you're saying are so valid, 1:56:28.960 --> 1:56:30.640 and we'll address them at a later date. 1:56:33.160 --> 1:56:36.680 Yeah, we were getting this great response of like, you know, 1:56:36.960 --> 1:56:38.920 we want to get you to not just a living wage, 1:56:38.920 --> 1:56:41.400 but a professional wage, and we have a five year plan, 1:56:42.200 --> 1:56:45.000 but we were halfway through that five year plan. The 1:56:45.040 --> 1:56:47.920 five year plan started right before the pandemic and had 1:56:47.960 --> 1:56:51.520 not been adjusted since, and there was no information on 1:56:51.640 --> 1:56:55.840 how we were going to in the last half of 1:56:55.880 --> 1:57:00.440 this five year plan, you know, suddenly increase wages to 1:57:00.720 --> 1:57:04.640 whatever a professional wage is let alone a living wage. 1:57:05.240 --> 1:57:07.480 So that was just a very a very frustrating, like 1:57:08.440 --> 1:57:10.000 completely empty answer. 1:57:10.720 --> 1:57:12.680 I think we were all very we were all hurt, 1:57:13.200 --> 1:57:16.720 and we got like the very first message in our 1:57:16.760 --> 1:57:18.960 group chat, which was just like so we're we're gonna 1:57:19.000 --> 1:57:23.720 we're gonna unionize, right, incredible, And that was like the 1:57:23.720 --> 1:57:26.560 start of it. And that was like last I want 1:57:26.560 --> 1:57:32.480 to say that was January of twenty twenty three was 1:57:32.520 --> 1:57:33.440 when that started. 1:57:34.480 --> 1:57:35.600 Yeah, they'reabouts. 1:57:46.480 --> 1:57:49.080 Yeah, that's a that's I guess it's a pretty vast 1:57:49.200 --> 1:57:52.160 campaign by the looks of it. It's yeah, about it 1:57:52.240 --> 1:57:56.640 about it a bit over a year. Yeah, Yeah, congratulations 1:57:56.680 --> 1:57:58.920 to you all, by the way, thank you. 1:57:59.360 --> 1:57:59.760 Thanks. 1:58:00.920 --> 1:58:04.800 It's really thanks to the team that started in January though, 1:58:04.840 --> 1:58:08.040 because they have been really really proactive about reaching out 1:58:08.040 --> 1:58:11.800 to people when there are new booksellers. Because I have 1:58:11.920 --> 1:58:13.480 kind of a weird tenure at the store. I've worked 1:58:13.480 --> 1:58:16.200 there two separate times, but I wasn't part of the 1:58:16.280 --> 1:58:20.480 January meeting. But when I rejoined the co op in August, 1:58:20.840 --> 1:58:23.240 I think within the first week that I was there, 1:58:23.440 --> 1:58:25.200 one of my kokers came up to me while I 1:58:25.240 --> 1:58:27.960 was at the register and like in the standard getting 1:58:28.000 --> 1:58:29.680 to know you kind of speech, was like, how do 1:58:29.720 --> 1:58:33.320 you feel about labor organizing? And I was like, very 1:58:33.360 --> 1:58:34.520 in favor. Why do you ask? 1:58:37.000 --> 1:58:39.640 Yeah, that, by the way, dear listener, if you're at 1:58:39.640 --> 1:58:41.360 a union, that is that is what is known as 1:58:41.440 --> 1:58:44.080 good practice. It is, in fact a thing that you 1:58:44.120 --> 1:58:46.600 need to do. Whenever someone new joins your workplace and 1:58:46.640 --> 1:58:48.960 you have a union, bring them in. And if you 1:58:49.000 --> 1:58:51.960 don't do this, your unions will stagnate die. And there 1:58:51.960 --> 1:58:54.600 are there are like there are actually there are unions 1:58:54.600 --> 1:58:56.120 out there who will get mad at you for doing 1:58:56.120 --> 1:58:58.840 this because it takes resources or whatever, and don't listen 1:58:58.880 --> 1:59:02.320 to them. Please stop. Simply do not do this. 1:59:02.320 --> 1:59:06.080 This is the only defense against turnover, which is huge 1:59:06.120 --> 1:59:08.720 industries that most need to unionize. 1:59:09.080 --> 1:59:12.160 Yep, we have really crazy turnover. 1:59:12.680 --> 1:59:16.960 Like I think that of the original people who started talking, 1:59:17.120 --> 1:59:18.879 I mean and this was like there was a previous 1:59:18.960 --> 1:59:22.160 unionization effort too before our time that we know very 1:59:22.200 --> 1:59:26.640 little about. But of the original like January folks, very 1:59:26.640 --> 1:59:30.919 few of us are left just because of the turnover 1:59:31.000 --> 1:59:34.600 rate which is immense, and we get like groups of 1:59:34.640 --> 1:59:39.560 like three to four people hired at once every six 1:59:39.600 --> 1:59:43.160 months or so. And it's like, Okay, how quickly can 1:59:43.200 --> 1:59:46.920 we scope folks out, How quickly can we like do 1:59:47.360 --> 1:59:49.560 like a one on one and talk to them about 1:59:49.560 --> 1:59:52.520 how they feel about labor organizing. How can we get 1:59:52.560 --> 1:59:56.600 a sense of like what their main concerns are with 1:59:58.200 --> 2:00:01.000 the job and what they want from unionizing. 2:00:01.240 --> 2:00:01.920 Yeah. 2:00:01.960 --> 2:00:04.120 Well, and the turnover is also one of the things 2:00:04.120 --> 2:00:08.520 that sparked this because we had a wave of folks 2:00:08.600 --> 2:00:13.480 who were fired asked to leave or quit on their 2:00:13.520 --> 2:00:17.840 own terms. And we had another coworker who knew that 2:00:18.400 --> 2:00:20.400 she was kind of reaching the end of when she 2:00:20.520 --> 2:00:25.000 could you know, stay at the bookstore and was just 2:00:25.240 --> 2:00:29.400 very committed to like getting some momentum going in her 2:00:29.480 --> 2:00:34.200 last handful of months here and created, like you oside 2:00:34.200 --> 2:00:36.240 the group chat and was just very quit like all right, 2:00:36.880 --> 2:00:40.120 everyone were in the group chat like this message if 2:00:40.160 --> 2:00:42.160 you agree with the following statement, and then it was like, 2:00:42.720 --> 2:00:45.360 you know, the statements about like how much you care 2:00:45.400 --> 2:00:47.160 about the job, and then statements about like how much 2:00:47.160 --> 2:00:49.680 you agree that like a union would improve things, and 2:00:50.040 --> 2:00:53.960 just about everybody agreed a union would be a huge improvement. 2:00:54.480 --> 2:00:57.400 And that was I mean, that was also a really 2:00:58.520 --> 2:01:02.520 incredible resource because like before someone just created the group chat. 2:01:03.200 --> 2:01:05.680 We're in this really awkward phase of like three or 2:01:05.680 --> 2:01:08.080 four different groups of people trying to get a ball 2:01:08.160 --> 2:01:13.480 rolling and very like cautiously approaching folks. I had approached 2:01:13.760 --> 2:01:16.480 one or two people and been like that same exact question, 2:01:16.640 --> 2:01:21.040 like how do you feel about unions? And then there 2:01:21.080 --> 2:01:23.440 was someone else who was going around asking the exact 2:01:23.440 --> 2:01:26.800 same question. And you know, I was also at rege 2:01:26.800 --> 2:01:29.000 one day when she came up and asked ask me that, 2:01:29.080 --> 2:01:31.760 and I was like, Jesus, do I not have enough 2:01:31.760 --> 2:01:35.320 patches on my jacket? This is a question I need 2:01:35.320 --> 2:01:36.040 to fix something. 2:01:38.600 --> 2:01:40.800 It was a lot of like ships passing until the 2:01:40.840 --> 2:01:44.120 group chat got created, and then it was really quick. 2:01:44.200 --> 2:01:47.400 We had We started. 2:01:47.320 --> 2:01:52.600 Having like meetings, I want to say we had one 2:01:52.920 --> 2:01:56.080 like every three weeks to a month. In that first 2:01:56.120 --> 2:02:03.120 six months, we got together a letter of demands that 2:02:03.280 --> 2:02:06.080 we all read and signed. It was I think at 2:02:06.080 --> 2:02:09.360 the time of the how many were working there. It 2:02:09.400 --> 2:02:15.280 was like all but one maybe wow person signed it, 2:02:15.920 --> 2:02:19.520 and we all went to deliver it and read it 2:02:19.560 --> 2:02:24.840 to management and got a bunch of stuff right away. 2:02:24.880 --> 2:02:28.720 This was like well before yeah, well before we had 2:02:29.920 --> 2:02:33.040 signed with an or decided who we wanted to ununize with, 2:02:33.240 --> 2:02:36.720 and we still just threw that direct action got so 2:02:36.920 --> 2:02:38.240 much done. 2:02:38.400 --> 2:02:41.280 And I think that's part of the success that we've 2:02:41.280 --> 2:02:43.160 had so far too, is we do just have kind 2:02:43.200 --> 2:02:46.280 of a large number in our cohort of impatient people, 2:02:46.880 --> 2:02:51.280 which means that like, once we figure out what we want, 2:02:51.560 --> 2:02:53.440 we're just like, Okay, what's the fastest way we can 2:02:53.480 --> 2:02:55.360 ask for this and get it recognized. 2:02:56.720 --> 2:02:59.600 That first march that we did, that first letter was 2:02:59.640 --> 2:03:03.400 also just I mean, it really like fueled all of 2:03:03.520 --> 2:03:06.760 the rest of this, I think because the stuff that 2:03:06.800 --> 2:03:11.360 we won was so I think so immediately felt for 2:03:11.440 --> 2:03:12.440 everyone working there. 2:03:12.880 --> 2:03:15.920 There wasn't things, Uh what kinds of things did you win? 2:03:15.960 --> 2:03:16.400 In that one? 2:03:17.120 --> 2:03:22.320 We won expanded health insurance. Previously very few people qualified 2:03:22.480 --> 2:03:27.880 for health insurance. We got that pretty tremendously broadened. I mean, 2:03:27.920 --> 2:03:30.040 that's I think how THEO and I ended up getting 2:03:30.440 --> 2:03:35.160 health insurance. We got things like, you know, improved maternity leave, 2:03:35.280 --> 2:03:39.120 improved bereavement leave. The definition of who you could take 2:03:39.200 --> 2:03:42.840 berievement leave for was broadened. It was like previously a 2:03:42.880 --> 2:03:46.800 grid of like nine types of relation, and then it 2:03:46.840 --> 2:03:50.360 got just fully expanded to like include chosen family and 2:03:50.440 --> 2:03:53.560 just whoever you know you felt the need to claim 2:03:53.560 --> 2:03:56.720 berievement leave for as well as just how many days, 2:03:57.240 --> 2:04:02.040 which was tremendous. I mean, it was like a week 2:04:02.160 --> 2:04:06.280 after the change you know, got actually implemented into our 2:04:07.400 --> 2:04:11.680 leave system, that I found out a relative was dying, 2:04:12.160 --> 2:04:17.200 And because we had gotten that expansion, I didn't have 2:04:17.320 --> 2:04:22.520 to choose between driving my grandmother to be by her bedside, 2:04:23.680 --> 2:04:27.480 be by this other relative's bedside, or going to the funeral. 2:04:28.040 --> 2:04:30.840 I was able to take time off for both of those, 2:04:31.240 --> 2:04:34.680 which you know, meant everything to me, meant everything to 2:04:34.680 --> 2:04:35.160 my grandma. 2:04:36.600 --> 2:04:36.960 And so. 2:04:38.400 --> 2:04:41.840 You know, when we talk when we're looking at issues, 2:04:41.840 --> 2:04:43.440 when we're organizing, and we talk about things that are 2:04:43.480 --> 2:04:46.360 widely felt, that are deeply felt, that are actionable, and 2:04:46.520 --> 2:04:50.400 like those kinds of changes are very deeply felt. And 2:04:50.440 --> 2:04:53.120 so there wasn't you know, there really hasn't been a 2:04:53.120 --> 2:04:57.280 point since then when anyone could remotely make the argument 2:04:57.400 --> 2:05:03.520 that organizing doesn't create positive, impactful change. 2:05:04.280 --> 2:05:07.160 Yeah, the handbook that I was onboarded with the second 2:05:07.240 --> 2:05:09.920 time that I came to the stores was significantly different 2:05:10.120 --> 2:05:12.880 than the handbook that I was onboarded with the first time, 2:05:13.000 --> 2:05:16.160 and it was because this list of demands had gone 2:05:16.160 --> 2:05:20.240 out in the interim, because the policies about like just 2:05:21.240 --> 2:05:25.000 our character as a store and the way that we 2:05:25.120 --> 2:05:28.400 want to interact with our community were completely different, and 2:05:28.440 --> 2:05:33.960 it was very much that like booksellers who interact with 2:05:33.960 --> 2:05:36.040 the community on a daily basis, had had a say 2:05:36.200 --> 2:05:36.959 in the meantime. 2:05:37.680 --> 2:05:39.600 Hell yeah, okay, So unfortunately we have to go to 2:05:39.640 --> 2:05:44.080 an ad break. But oh we returned. Well, I don't know, 2:05:44.240 --> 2:05:47.760 go back to what we were doing before, question work. 2:05:48.040 --> 2:05:50.160 I don't know, not not. My fight is to ad pivot. 2:05:50.200 --> 2:05:52.200 But you know, look if they if they, if they 2:05:52.320 --> 2:05:54.280 paid me more, they'd get more good AD pivots. But 2:05:54.320 --> 2:05:57.080 they don't fear get in the media. Once you gotta 2:05:57.120 --> 2:05:58.440 work your wage. 2:05:58.640 --> 2:06:11.520 Yeah, and we're back. 2:06:12.800 --> 2:06:16.800 Yeah, So you know, the organizing students have come together 2:06:17.120 --> 2:06:20.240 pretty quickly. I guess, do you want to talk about 2:06:20.520 --> 2:06:23.440 how you ended up being an AWW shop? 2:06:24.120 --> 2:06:26.520 Yeah, I mean I'm happy to talk on that a 2:06:26.560 --> 2:06:28.520 little bit. You know, when we got to the point 2:06:28.520 --> 2:06:33.480 where were deciding who we wanted to affiliate with, I 2:06:33.520 --> 2:06:37.200 sent out feelers to just a bunch of different unions. 2:06:37.800 --> 2:06:41.200 Two got back to me a larger trade union that 2:06:41.240 --> 2:06:44.480 I'm totally spacing on the name of, or a commercial 2:06:44.600 --> 2:06:48.240 union the term for like the really big one, the 2:06:48.360 --> 2:06:54.720 really big types of unions, and the IWW and I 2:06:54.760 --> 2:06:58.000 had meetings or phone calls with representatives from both of them. 2:06:58.920 --> 2:07:01.040 The you and I put together kind of a graphic 2:07:01.440 --> 2:07:04.600 sort of comparing like the pros and cons of two 2:07:05.400 --> 2:07:10.760 very different options, right like a big international union or 2:07:11.720 --> 2:07:13.840 I mean IWW obviously international, it's right in there in 2:07:13.880 --> 2:07:18.720 the name, but obviously a smaller, much more autonomous union. 2:07:19.520 --> 2:07:24.919 And I wanted to go IWW. I did my absolute 2:07:25.000 --> 2:07:28.640 best to not let that bias inform the pros and 2:07:28.680 --> 2:07:31.880 cons lists and whatnot, and we, you know, we sat 2:07:31.920 --> 2:07:37.600 around in this room here and just chatted it out, 2:07:37.680 --> 2:07:39.960 talked about our preferences, what mattered to all of us, 2:07:40.040 --> 2:07:44.800 and you know, what we decided was that, amongst other things, 2:07:44.840 --> 2:07:47.240 one of like the really big sort of organizing principles 2:07:47.280 --> 2:07:51.360 of this has been increasing our own agency and autonomy 2:07:51.360 --> 2:07:55.520 in the workplace, and the IWW's model just felt like 2:07:55.560 --> 2:07:59.919 it would give us the most control over our own campaign. 2:08:01.240 --> 2:08:06.400 And so that's that's how we ended up voting to 2:08:06.600 --> 2:08:10.560 become an IWW. You know lead, then campaign, and now 2:08:10.600 --> 2:08:12.320 finally shop branch. 2:08:13.400 --> 2:08:17.120 I think that the IWW really fit how our store 2:08:17.120 --> 2:08:19.160 and our organizing had worked thus far. 2:08:19.520 --> 2:08:19.680 Too. 2:08:20.200 --> 2:08:22.800 It felt like it matched the character of our organizing. 2:08:23.640 --> 2:08:28.160 It's definitely much scrappier it, you know, the IWW having 2:08:28.160 --> 2:08:33.440 a history in Chicago definitely was a factor in my 2:08:34.160 --> 2:08:37.520 personal desire to be affiliated with them. I thought it 2:08:37.560 --> 2:08:40.080 was really cool to be joining that like long tradition 2:08:40.320 --> 2:08:45.720 of IWW shops in Chicago. I think that direct the 2:08:45.800 --> 2:08:54.080 emphasis on direct employee action versus like contract bargaining fit 2:08:54.200 --> 2:08:56.440 very well for us as well. I think, especially considering 2:08:56.480 --> 2:09:00.320 things like the turnover and how we wanted to make 2:09:00.360 --> 2:09:03.240 sure that you know, if we argue to contract, if 2:09:03.280 --> 2:09:07.920 we bargain for a contract now, that it would be 2:09:07.960 --> 2:09:11.800 difficult to know, you know, even a year or two 2:09:11.840 --> 2:09:14.920 down the line, if those points and those things that 2:09:14.960 --> 2:09:16.480 we bargained for would be what. 2:09:17.040 --> 2:09:18.520 Folks would want then. 2:09:19.840 --> 2:09:26.040 And so getting to use more direct action and response 2:09:27.520 --> 2:09:30.760 to make gains in the workplace has been. 2:09:32.320 --> 2:09:32.920 I think a. 2:09:34.480 --> 2:09:38.440 Really helpful strategy and one that the IWW facilitates really 2:09:38.480 --> 2:09:41.880 well with how it trains organizing. 2:09:42.600 --> 2:09:44.400 Yeah, that all makes a lot of sense. And I 2:09:44.400 --> 2:09:46.800 guess you know, the question for there is how did 2:09:46.840 --> 2:09:49.720 management sort of react and what's been the kind of 2:09:50.240 --> 2:09:54.480 what's what's what's what's been the kind of relationship vibe 2:09:54.680 --> 2:09:55.520 since then? 2:09:57.720 --> 2:10:03.080 I mean management volunte taily recognized us immediately, but they 2:10:03.120 --> 2:10:08.600 also had very clear notice ahead of time that we 2:10:08.720 --> 2:10:10.960 had been organizing, Like we had been presenting them with 2:10:11.040 --> 2:10:13.160 demands on a regular basis. We had been emailing them 2:10:13.160 --> 2:10:16.680 from an anonymous account requesting that they closed the stores 2:10:16.760 --> 2:10:19.400 when the cold was too intense for most of us 2:10:19.440 --> 2:10:23.520 to safely get to work, Like they would be very 2:10:23.680 --> 2:10:26.440 very deeply buried under the rocks if they didn't know 2:10:26.520 --> 2:10:30.480 that we were like talking to each other. So I 2:10:30.480 --> 2:10:33.160 think that they had a plan, And they also know 2:10:33.280 --> 2:10:36.560 the character of our community, which is very theoretically leftist, 2:10:36.720 --> 2:10:38.760 and so they knew that they really didn't have another 2:10:38.840 --> 2:10:43.800 option because like we were at critical mass, and they 2:10:43.800 --> 2:10:47.200 would look really bad in the eyes of everyone. 2:10:46.880 --> 2:10:49.240 That they respect if they said nothing. 2:10:50.400 --> 2:10:54.800 By the time that we announced to management that we'd unionized, 2:10:55.360 --> 2:11:00.280 something like twenty one twenty two out of two twenty 2:11:00.360 --> 2:11:03.720 three hourly workers were members of the IWW. 2:11:06.240 --> 2:11:08.320 We showed up in T shirts. It was a lot. 2:11:09.000 --> 2:11:12.800 Yeah, incredible when you walk in, when you walk in 2:11:12.800 --> 2:11:15.800 in your IWW shirt to sit down at like an 2:11:15.840 --> 2:11:18.720 all store meeting, and then the next person walks in 2:11:18.800 --> 2:11:21.120 and they're also wearing that shirt, and then the next 2:11:21.160 --> 2:11:22.839 person it's like, yeah, we've. 2:11:22.640 --> 2:11:26.760 Got the numbers. Something's about to happen. And they knew. 2:11:27.600 --> 2:11:30.200 They knew because we'd heard them I think, like not 2:11:30.320 --> 2:11:34.480 two days before being like, yeah, we think that they're 2:11:34.480 --> 2:11:36.120 on the precipice of unionizing. 2:11:37.400 --> 2:11:40.160 If we were like, boy, you have no idea. 2:11:41.480 --> 2:11:44.680 Yeah, they took it as well as we expected them 2:11:45.000 --> 2:11:47.160 to take it. 2:11:47.200 --> 2:11:48.440 As Finn said. 2:11:48.800 --> 2:11:51.920 We had been in a organized meeting the night before 2:11:51.960 --> 2:11:53.720 and had been in our group chet you know, that morning, 2:11:54.240 --> 2:11:58.120 preparing for all manner of different scenarios. If they didn't 2:11:58.160 --> 2:12:02.000 take it well and then and then they did. 2:12:02.320 --> 2:12:05.600 How have they been acting after, Because there's there's definitely 2:12:05.640 --> 2:12:08.000 it can be a huge gap between vaulty recognition and 2:12:08.040 --> 2:12:10.879 then them actually doing anything. 2:12:12.320 --> 2:12:15.920 Yeah, So the structure of management is real interesting. At 2:12:15.920 --> 2:12:19.520 our store, Like I said, we had we have twenty 2:12:19.760 --> 2:12:27.160 three currently hourly booksellers, and then that to how many managers. 2:12:27.760 --> 2:12:31.000 Six at least eight eight count. 2:12:32.480 --> 2:12:36.880 Yes, this is a fun quirk about our store. The 2:12:36.920 --> 2:12:41.040 manager to bookseller ratio is insane. And then we've got 2:12:41.080 --> 2:12:47.000 like our directors who are not counted in the manager number, 2:12:47.520 --> 2:12:48.120 which is okay. 2:12:48.200 --> 2:12:52.120 So we've got five managers and three directors. 2:12:52.360 --> 2:12:57.720 Five managers and three directors for twenty three hourly employees. 2:12:58.200 --> 2:13:01.320 And I think that, yeah, yeah. 2:13:01.160 --> 2:13:03.840 And have to use that ratio in meetings. 2:13:04.280 --> 2:13:05.280 They talk about that a lot. 2:13:06.760 --> 2:13:07.440 Yeah, And I think that. 2:13:09.720 --> 2:13:12.760 No, no, no, no, we talk about it a lot 2:13:12.800 --> 2:13:20.280 like as and I think that, well, it's interesting because 2:13:20.280 --> 2:13:23.000 in these store meetings it is usually only the director 2:13:23.040 --> 2:13:25.440 that talks. I don't think we've ever heard managers talk 2:13:25.560 --> 2:13:29.600 in an all storm meeting. So when the director voluntarily 2:13:29.720 --> 2:13:33.720 or recognizes our union, we also have to really look 2:13:33.760 --> 2:13:35.920 at the faces of every manager to see what they're 2:13:35.960 --> 2:13:36.560 actually feeling. 2:13:36.640 --> 2:13:40.320 And I think a lot of managers are. 2:13:42.240 --> 2:13:42.360 Have. 2:13:42.960 --> 2:13:45.760 My suspicion is that a lot of managers share equal 2:13:45.800 --> 2:13:50.960 frustration with a lot of the ways that the store is. 2:13:52.880 --> 2:13:54.920 Managed, even above them. 2:13:55.920 --> 2:14:01.440 And I think, obviously they can't say anything to us 2:14:01.560 --> 2:14:04.160 about how they feel about our. 2:14:04.160 --> 2:14:09.600 Union, but but anecdotally, they were so excited to take 2:14:09.640 --> 2:14:12.560 our picture after we announced that we had unilized. 2:14:14.720 --> 2:14:15.840 That's really funny. 2:14:16.200 --> 2:14:19.520 We did get management to take our photo, which we. 2:14:19.520 --> 2:14:21.880 Hadn't joked about in the group chat in the morning, Like, Lol, 2:14:21.880 --> 2:14:24.200 wouldn't it be hilarious if we made the managers take 2:14:24.200 --> 2:14:25.280 our picture and then they shor. 2:14:25.280 --> 2:14:27.839 Did That's so funny. 2:14:28.200 --> 2:14:31.400 Yeah, On a day to day level, I think things 2:14:31.480 --> 2:14:33.160 have been generally. 2:14:34.360 --> 2:14:39.720 No more or less awkward than usual. The vibe can be, yeah, 2:14:39.840 --> 2:14:41.120 bizarre on them. 2:14:41.320 --> 2:14:42.040 The vibe is. 2:14:41.960 --> 2:14:45.040 Also very highly colored right now by a lot of 2:14:45.080 --> 2:14:47.040 other big changes that are happening at the stores that 2:14:47.080 --> 2:14:49.520 have nothing to do with our union, and so like 2:14:49.960 --> 2:14:54.360 it's very difficult to sort of suss out which weirdness 2:14:54.480 --> 2:14:58.120 is which. But definitely I think the union weirdness is 2:14:58.200 --> 2:14:59.160 on the lesser end. 2:14:59.440 --> 2:15:05.000 Actually, yeah, I mean, I think the only real indication 2:15:05.240 --> 2:15:08.480 we have in the last in this kind of just 2:15:09.000 --> 2:15:13.800 little stretch since we announced is that we've been emailing 2:15:13.840 --> 2:15:19.080 with our director for like to schedule a announcement from 2:15:19.320 --> 2:15:24.320 the store side, and you know, we sent basically copy 2:15:24.400 --> 2:15:27.800 that we would like them to use and listed out 2:15:27.840 --> 2:15:29.880 what venues we would like it posted, and they've been 2:15:30.880 --> 2:15:33.640 just very accommodating to all of that. We haven't been 2:15:33.640 --> 2:15:37.080 getting any pushback like how the store how or when 2:15:37.120 --> 2:15:41.520 the store announces to the you know, mailing list and 2:15:41.560 --> 2:15:44.960 the community social media following and so on, so you 2:15:45.000 --> 2:15:45.720 know there's that. 2:15:46.920 --> 2:15:49.839 Yeah, it hasn't really been talked about that publicly yet. 2:15:50.120 --> 2:15:52.040 It's about to be. I do know that. 2:15:53.680 --> 2:15:56.800 When at the at the event that I was running 2:15:57.080 --> 2:16:03.320 or working at yesterday the unionization, we got congratulated on 2:16:03.360 --> 2:16:06.440 our unionization and one of my managers was just that 2:16:06.560 --> 2:16:09.800 was to my manager's face, and I think her reaction 2:16:09.960 --> 2:16:15.160 was like, oh, so you know they're taking it. They'd 2:16:15.200 --> 2:16:16.920 being very polite about it. I don't think they know 2:16:17.320 --> 2:16:23.120 that other people know yet, but yeah, if they when 2:16:23.160 --> 2:16:25.400 it happens, I'm sure they're not going to be weird 2:16:25.840 --> 2:16:28.920 about it, at least I hope not. 2:16:29.960 --> 2:16:33.400 I think the main thing management wants to do everything 2:16:33.400 --> 2:16:36.119 in writing, and I think that's correct in some ways 2:16:36.200 --> 2:16:39.800 and like that's about to happen, But in terms of 2:16:41.240 --> 2:16:45.560 how they will interact with us once it is fully 2:16:45.600 --> 2:16:49.200 public and fully announced and fully in writing, I'm not sure. 2:16:50.160 --> 2:16:53.680 I also think that the reactions that we're getting now 2:16:53.680 --> 2:16:56.640 are the ways that they interact with us now that 2:16:56.680 --> 2:16:59.720 we have announced versus the ways that they may interact 2:16:59.720 --> 2:17:04.320 with us once we start really pushing for our demands. 2:17:04.800 --> 2:17:08.560 That is that that could change pretty quickly, especially when 2:17:08.600 --> 2:17:12.880 it comes to the living wage demand, that is very 2:17:12.920 --> 2:17:16.720 at the forefront of what we're fighting for. That's also 2:17:16.760 --> 2:17:20.920 been the one that has like the most tension behind 2:17:20.920 --> 2:17:23.680 it when we've brought it up in the past. And 2:17:25.480 --> 2:17:27.760 I think that once they realized that we're not just 2:17:27.959 --> 2:17:34.000 unionizing for fun, things might change pretty quickly. 2:17:34.080 --> 2:17:35.360 And so we're just going to have to be on 2:17:36.920 --> 2:17:37.600 We'll be on our. 2:17:37.520 --> 2:17:41.240 Toes because a big reason that we unionized was because 2:17:41.240 --> 2:17:44.440 we needed to have more weight behind that demand, because 2:17:44.480 --> 2:17:46.800 that was one of the core demands that has been 2:17:46.800 --> 2:17:50.119 made for the longest amount of time, with the least 2:17:50.160 --> 2:17:53.720 amount of movement and the most empty promises, and so 2:17:54.800 --> 2:17:58.280 we wanted to prove to them, hey, you have to 2:17:58.360 --> 2:18:01.160 listen to us about this. And I think that they 2:18:01.240 --> 2:18:04.199 might not have fully cottoned on to that yet. 2:18:05.800 --> 2:18:07.080 Yeah, And I guess I guess we'll just sort of 2:18:07.120 --> 2:18:10.720 have to see how how they react to the sort 2:18:10.720 --> 2:18:13.680 of hammer coming down on them now that day spent 2:18:13.800 --> 2:18:16.760 all this time not actually doing anything. Yeah, I think 2:18:16.840 --> 2:18:18.680 I think That's a pretty good place to wrap up. 2:18:18.720 --> 2:18:20.240 Is there anyth unless there's anything else that you want 2:18:20.280 --> 2:18:21.920 to make sure that gets mentioned. 2:18:24.320 --> 2:18:26.200 Yeah, I mean I think one thing I would like 2:18:26.280 --> 2:18:30.040 to say towards the end here is that a big 2:18:30.200 --> 2:18:33.879 part of what's been motivating us through all of this 2:18:34.080 --> 2:18:38.720 is seeing the sort of rise of labor power nationally 2:18:39.280 --> 2:18:44.880 with you know, the strikes in LA with like the writers, 2:18:44.920 --> 2:18:48.480 the actress strikes, seeing you know, teacher strikes going on 2:18:49.840 --> 2:18:52.600 with you know, the union stories that you all have 2:18:52.640 --> 2:18:55.440 been covering on this podcast, with folks like Frida Egg 2:18:57.000 --> 2:19:00.760 and I just yeah, I just want to say, like 2:19:01.360 --> 2:19:04.840 if for other folks who are working in a small space, 2:19:05.040 --> 2:19:10.160 in a retail space and thinking about unionizing, I mean, 2:19:10.200 --> 2:19:14.920 it's hard work, but it's deeply rewarding work, and if 2:19:14.959 --> 2:19:17.720 you put the time and dedication into it, it is 2:19:18.440 --> 2:19:22.960 absolutely possible to organize your workplace, especially if you're somewhere 2:19:22.959 --> 2:19:26.400 with twenty thirty co workers where you can get everyone 2:19:26.440 --> 2:19:28.720 into a group chat, where you can get everyone together 2:19:28.879 --> 2:19:33.360 in you know, someone's basement, someone's living room. You know, 2:19:34.120 --> 2:19:42.840 we're really at an incredible moment in labor as a movement, 2:19:44.200 --> 2:19:48.560 and just if you're thinking about organizing your workplace, Start 2:19:48.560 --> 2:19:52.480 talking to your coworkers, start talking to your friends. It's doable. 2:19:54.080 --> 2:19:58.680 It's hard, but there's power in a union and we 2:19:58.800 --> 2:19:59.200 can win. 2:20:01.480 --> 2:20:03.039 Hell yeah, I. 2:20:03.000 --> 2:20:04.879 Think there was something to be said too, just for 2:20:05.000 --> 2:20:08.080 the like sheer morale boost that comes from organizing with 2:20:08.120 --> 2:20:12.640 your co workers, because it makes everything better even as 2:20:12.680 --> 2:20:17.640 like your material reality doesn't change immediately, your outlook and 2:20:17.720 --> 2:20:20.960 ability to manage it, and to just feel like someone 2:20:21.040 --> 2:20:25.480 is in the same boat as you unparalleled really worth it. 2:20:25.480 --> 2:20:28.680 It feels yeah, it feels good. It feels good to 2:20:28.920 --> 2:20:32.400 have something to be proud of, something that you've put 2:20:32.440 --> 2:20:36.520 a lot of time into, Like coming to Fruition and 2:20:36.920 --> 2:20:40.959 seeing all of these people that you've worked together with 2:20:41.120 --> 2:20:47.600 to help make like tangible gains for your community. 2:20:47.800 --> 2:20:48.959 It feels like I think that. 2:20:50.840 --> 2:20:55.400 When you have a job, that is, when you're working 2:20:55.480 --> 2:20:58.800 a job that sometimes makes it difficult to feel proud 2:20:58.920 --> 2:21:00.920 of yourself and what you're doing a day to day basis. 2:21:00.920 --> 2:21:05.679 For whatever reason, having organizing and having. 2:21:05.720 --> 2:21:07.680 Your coworkers. 2:21:08.680 --> 2:21:12.960 There to make something really really good, not just for 2:21:13.040 --> 2:21:17.840 each other, but for future workers and for workers at 2:21:17.879 --> 2:21:22.080 other stores who may see our efforts and go. 2:21:22.040 --> 2:21:24.600 I can do that too. That makes you. 2:21:25.120 --> 2:21:29.120 That makes me proud, and it feels really good to 2:21:29.160 --> 2:21:30.160 have something to be proud of. 2:21:31.160 --> 2:21:33.160 Yeah, getting getting to fight for your class is a 2:21:33.160 --> 2:21:34.080 great feelings. 2:21:35.240 --> 2:21:36.520 It rules. 2:21:37.400 --> 2:21:41.039 Yeah. So I guess where where can people find the 2:21:41.160 --> 2:21:42.760 union if they want to help support stuff? 2:21:43.520 --> 2:21:43.840 Got it? 2:21:43.879 --> 2:21:45.840 Pull up our newly minted social media. 2:21:46.400 --> 2:21:47.200 That's nice. 2:21:47.720 --> 2:21:50.080 I had this ready to go earlier today and then 2:21:50.120 --> 2:21:51.920 I forgot to keep it open. 2:21:53.280 --> 2:21:55.359 No worries, We'll put the links in the description. 2:21:55.879 --> 2:21:57.720 These are some fresh, fresh handles. 2:21:58.520 --> 2:22:02.000 Here we go. Yeah, so, folks can find us on 2:22:02.040 --> 2:22:06.920 Instagram at sem co Op Booksellers Union sem c P 2:22:07.360 --> 2:22:12.760 Booksellers Union, or on Twitter at sem co Op Union. 2:22:13.959 --> 2:22:18.160 Hopefully we will, you know, start posting on soon and 2:22:18.160 --> 2:22:20.760 that's going to be the best way to sort of 2:22:21.240 --> 2:22:27.360 keep up with our store, our situation from specifically the 2:22:27.440 --> 2:22:29.520 perspective of the laborers. 2:22:31.040 --> 2:22:35.360 Also, if you're in Chicago, come and say hi, Come 2:22:35.400 --> 2:22:39.360 to our stores, Come talk to uhur like, come talk 2:22:39.400 --> 2:22:40.040 to the workers. 2:22:41.040 --> 2:22:42.640 We have a lot to say. We'd love to talk 2:22:42.640 --> 2:22:43.800 to you about it. 2:22:45.760 --> 2:22:48.160 Yeah, it's it's a great place and it's gotten significantly 2:22:48.200 --> 2:22:51.840 better now that this now now that it's unionized and 2:22:52.240 --> 2:22:55.679 hopefully one day I don't know, fuck it, don't all. 2:22:55.800 --> 2:22:57.840 I'll say this hope hopefully one day it is a 2:22:57.879 --> 2:22:59.120 fucking actual co op. 2:22:59.320 --> 2:23:03.160 Hell yeah, that's the dream, that's all we want. 2:23:07.920 --> 2:23:10.280 Yeah, so thank you all for coming on and good 2:23:10.400 --> 2:23:13.760 luck and yeah, hope hope management folds like a fucking 2:23:14.040 --> 2:23:15.080 wet paper towel. 2:23:16.280 --> 2:23:18.920 Hell yeah, thanks so much for having us. 2:23:19.080 --> 2:23:21.960 Thank you so much. This was amazing. 2:23:24.080 --> 2:23:26.000 Excited to have talked to you all. And yeah, this 2:23:26.080 --> 2:23:28.600 has been. It could happen here. You can do this too, 2:23:28.920 --> 2:23:32.440 and yeah, well we'll have we'll have exciting stuff coming 2:23:32.440 --> 2:23:36.039 tomorrow too. Yeah. Go go organize your workplace and make 2:23:36.080 --> 2:23:54.200 your bosses miserable and make your lives better. Welcome to 2:23:54.280 --> 2:23:57.160 it could happen here? Podcast about things falling apart how 2:23:57.200 --> 2:23:59.840 to put it back together again? Made by iHeartMedia. I 2:24:00.240 --> 2:24:03.039 am your host Nia Wong. So we have been you know, 2:24:03.360 --> 2:24:05.080 this is our This is going to be our first 2:24:05.160 --> 2:24:08.360 Union doubleheader. We have two Union episodes in a row. 2:24:08.400 --> 2:24:11.440 And part of why we're doing this is that we've 2:24:11.440 --> 2:24:15.400 we've been covering a lot of very sort of very 2:24:15.440 --> 2:24:18.279 fast drives, very low to the ground drives in small 2:24:18.320 --> 2:24:21.600 shops recently, and today we are going to be covering 2:24:21.879 --> 2:24:24.560 a shop that is not like that. It is very large, 2:24:24.600 --> 2:24:27.080 it is quite geographically diverse, and it has been organizing 2:24:27.120 --> 2:24:30.600 for a very long time. And that union is the 2:24:30.600 --> 2:24:33.560 iHeart Podcast Union. And with me to talk about this 2:24:33.720 --> 2:24:38.000 is Tracy Wilson from Suffie Missing History Class and Nomes Griffin, 2:24:38.040 --> 2:24:44.040 who is a producer on many staggeringly too many shows. 2:24:45.520 --> 2:24:48.360 And yeah, they are both on the bargaining committee of 2:24:48.360 --> 2:24:51.520 the Aheart Podcast Union. So yeah, Tracy Nomes, welcome to 2:24:51.520 --> 2:24:51.880 the show. 2:24:52.320 --> 2:24:56.800 No, thank you, We're glad to be here. 2:24:57.400 --> 2:24:59.240 Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to talk to you too. 2:24:59.440 --> 2:25:03.240 So all right, first thing, first thing about this iHeart 2:25:03.280 --> 2:25:08.440 Podcast Union. We haven't covered many media unions on this podcast. 2:25:08.959 --> 2:25:11.520 We probably should do more, but it's been a sort 2:25:11.560 --> 2:25:15.160 of product of of what kind I don't know that 2:25:15.600 --> 2:25:17.240 there's certain there are certain kinds of stuff that we've 2:25:17.240 --> 2:25:19.800 been focusing on. But now now we're doing media unions. 2:25:20.240 --> 2:25:22.959 So the place I wanted to start talking about the 2:25:22.959 --> 2:25:26.959 iHeart Podcast Union is the sort of scale of it. 2:25:27.080 --> 2:25:30.119 I mean, there's people everywhere like there are there are 2:25:30.160 --> 2:25:32.840 there are people who are where, there's one union member 2:25:32.879 --> 2:25:35.840 in the entire city, so you know, can we And 2:25:35.920 --> 2:25:38.480 it's also been going on for a very very long time, 2:25:38.600 --> 2:25:40.840 so I wanted to sort of ask, can you talk 2:25:40.840 --> 2:25:43.080 about how this whole process started and kind of how 2:25:43.120 --> 2:25:44.240 long it's been going on. 2:25:44.959 --> 2:25:49.520 So long, so long. I was scrolling through my phone 2:25:49.560 --> 2:25:53.640 today trying to remember when when was the first time 2:25:54.040 --> 2:25:58.320 that I was contacted about unionizing, because the first thing 2:25:58.320 --> 2:26:01.600 that happened for me was being organ into the union 2:26:02.640 --> 2:26:06.520 before I Heart recognized us, and that was in the 2:26:06.720 --> 2:26:12.640 fall of twenty twenty. The fall of twenty twenty, I 2:26:12.680 --> 2:26:15.160 got a text from my friend Lauren that was like, 2:26:15.240 --> 2:26:17.040 can I talk to you about a kind of a 2:26:17.080 --> 2:26:21.240 work thing. It's a kind of work and I said sure. 2:26:21.480 --> 2:26:25.240 And the question that Lauren had to ask me was 2:26:26.080 --> 2:26:28.440 some of us are talking about unionizing. How would you 2:26:28.440 --> 2:26:32.160 feel about that? And I said, Okay, I need to 2:26:32.520 --> 2:26:35.320 check my agreement that I already have with iHeart because 2:26:35.360 --> 2:26:37.440 a lot of us that I have individual agreements with 2:26:37.440 --> 2:26:40.959 the company. I have worked in the job that I 2:26:41.000 --> 2:26:44.120 have now in some capacity for almost nineteen years, so 2:26:44.160 --> 2:26:46.160 I've been here forever and I already had this. I 2:26:46.200 --> 2:26:47.840 was like, I need to find out does this agreement 2:26:47.879 --> 2:26:51.080 prohibit me from doing this? It did not, and so 2:26:51.160 --> 2:26:53.560 I said, all right, if I'm eligible to be in 2:26:53.600 --> 2:26:56.400 the union, I'm on board. If I'm not eligible to 2:26:56.400 --> 2:26:58.240 be in the union, you have my full support. And 2:26:58.240 --> 2:27:02.840 that was in like November of twenty twenty, which is 2:27:03.040 --> 2:27:05.959 eons ago at this point. 2:27:07.040 --> 2:27:10.400 Yeah, it's been I came on to the company and 2:27:10.800 --> 2:27:14.760 the union was already in negotiations, Like, yeah. 2:27:14.520 --> 2:27:15.960 It had been a union already. 2:27:16.040 --> 2:27:19.039 I started in January of twenty twenty three, and I 2:27:19.080 --> 2:27:22.720 came like straight into the we're in bargaining sessions process. 2:27:22.959 --> 2:27:28.200 Yeah. So the organizing process took definitely more than a year. 2:27:28.800 --> 2:27:31.680 And that was more than a year of people talking 2:27:31.680 --> 2:27:34.600 to all of their colleagues about whether they wanted to 2:27:34.640 --> 2:27:36.920 form a union, what would be the benefits of forming 2:27:37.120 --> 2:27:40.000 a union, all of that stuff. And so we have 2:27:40.160 --> 2:27:44.560 three main offices at iHeart, there's New York, LA and Atlanta. 2:27:45.040 --> 2:27:47.360 So there were people who were doing things on the 2:27:47.360 --> 2:27:50.240 ground with people locally to them. But then also I 2:27:50.280 --> 2:27:52.440 think it's something like a third of our unit is 2:27:52.480 --> 2:27:54.640 not actually local to one of these offices. I'm not 2:27:54.720 --> 2:27:57.240 local to an office. I live north of Boston, we 2:27:57.320 --> 2:28:00.000 have like three unit members and the entire Commonwealth the message. 2:28:00.879 --> 2:28:03.040 So this is like a really long process of getting 2:28:03.080 --> 2:28:06.039 everybody on board and getting everybody to commit to saying 2:28:06.080 --> 2:28:08.280 they wanted to be in the union, and then eventually 2:28:08.280 --> 2:28:12.280 to sign union cards after all of that, that took 2:28:12.360 --> 2:28:15.600 more than a year. We informed management of our intent 2:28:15.680 --> 2:28:18.520 to unionize in December of twenty twenty one, and they 2:28:18.600 --> 2:28:21.400 recognized us about six weeks later, in February of twenty 2:28:21.440 --> 2:28:24.240 twenty two. That took longer than we would have wanted. 2:28:24.280 --> 2:28:26.560 There was some back and forth about exactly what roles 2:28:26.600 --> 2:28:30.119 would be included in the union, and then also the 2:28:30.360 --> 2:28:32.879 winter holidays happened in the middle of that, which, like 2:28:32.920 --> 2:28:35.640 those weeks don't exist for business purposes in a lot 2:28:35.640 --> 2:28:38.080 of ways. We still got to do podcasts for them, 2:28:39.480 --> 2:28:43.040 but nobody's at work, and so, you know, we were 2:28:43.080 --> 2:28:47.200 recognized without having to go through an election with the NLRB, 2:28:47.400 --> 2:28:50.080 which was great, but it did sort of feel like 2:28:50.120 --> 2:28:53.040 it took a little bit to finally get the recognition. 2:28:53.080 --> 2:28:57.280 And then we started bargaining in May, so a couple 2:28:57.320 --> 2:28:59.959 of months after that, and that was two years ago 2:29:00.200 --> 2:29:01.280 that we started bargaining. 2:29:02.320 --> 2:29:02.720 Oh, my god. 2:29:02.800 --> 2:29:04.760 Yeah, it's May now, it may. 2:29:05.240 --> 2:29:07.000 It is almost June today. 2:29:07.720 --> 2:29:09.640 Yeah. 2:29:09.800 --> 2:29:10.000 Yeah. 2:29:10.000 --> 2:29:13.920 It has been a really quite long bargaining process, which 2:29:13.920 --> 2:29:15.440 I think, I mean, this is something we've talked about 2:29:15.440 --> 2:29:17.680 on the show before that this is a pretty This 2:29:17.760 --> 2:29:20.120 is a thing that happens a lot for especially for 2:29:20.200 --> 2:29:23.440 first contracts, is that companies will try to sort of 2:29:23.480 --> 2:29:26.160 just weight the union out and try to because you know, 2:29:26.200 --> 2:29:28.640 the if if you look at like the places where 2:29:28.720 --> 2:29:33.080 unions fail, it's they either fail in sort of like 2:29:33.879 --> 2:29:36.879 they okay, there's there's there's the failures where like nothing 2:29:36.879 --> 2:29:40.360 ever gets started. There's the failures where they lose they 2:29:40.440 --> 2:29:42.760 lose an election, or they don't have enough people to 2:29:42.920 --> 2:29:45.920 sign cards. And then the third place that they fail 2:29:46.000 --> 2:29:49.800 is contract, is the first contract. And so this is 2:29:50.160 --> 2:29:54.560 you know, a situation that I guess is not unexpected, 2:29:54.560 --> 2:29:59.440 but is also negotiating a contract for two years just 2:30:00.160 --> 2:30:01.119 is not very fun. 2:30:02.480 --> 2:30:04.680 Yeah, no, it's not. 2:30:05.600 --> 2:30:09.520 Our colleagues at WGAE, when we got ready to start bargaining, 2:30:10.640 --> 2:30:13.039 tried to prepare us for the fact that eighteen months 2:30:13.040 --> 2:30:16.120 to two years is fairly normal in the world of 2:30:16.200 --> 2:30:21.000 media to bargain a first contract. I will readily acknowledge 2:30:21.080 --> 2:30:25.680 that I was overly optimistic when we started. I would 2:30:25.760 --> 2:30:28.400 not go so far as to say naive, but like 2:30:28.440 --> 2:30:30.800 I thought it was a really good sign that the 2:30:30.800 --> 2:30:34.480 company had voluntarily recognized US. I thought it was a 2:30:34.480 --> 2:30:39.120 really good sign that WGAE had successfully negotiated other contracts 2:30:39.160 --> 2:30:41.119 and that we were sort of drawing from a lot 2:30:41.160 --> 2:30:43.920 of that. Contract language is our starting point, and I 2:30:43.959 --> 2:30:47.440 feel like when you have all of the unionized podcast 2:30:47.520 --> 2:30:51.840 shops having similar language to me, that language is now 2:30:51.920 --> 2:30:55.720 becoming industry standard. So I expected less of a fight 2:30:55.879 --> 2:30:58.320 over a lot of that than what we actually got. 2:30:58.720 --> 2:31:02.640 And then also management hired an attorney that has negotiated 2:31:02.640 --> 2:31:04.960 a lot of other contracts with WGA. Was just all 2:31:05.000 --> 2:31:08.880 stuff that I thought was seemed favorable. And then when 2:31:08.879 --> 2:31:13.119 we actually got into the bargaining process, it has gone 2:31:13.200 --> 2:31:15.160 on for so long and there have been so many 2:31:15.200 --> 2:31:17.440 things that it has felt like we're just going around 2:31:17.440 --> 2:31:18.600 in circles at the table. 2:31:19.520 --> 2:31:23.000 Yeah, So before we get into kind of what issues 2:31:23.040 --> 2:31:25.840 are being circled around and what management has been doing, 2:31:25.920 --> 2:31:29.520 I wanted to talk about what bargaining a contract is 2:31:29.520 --> 2:31:31.560 actually like, because I think most of the people listening 2:31:31.560 --> 2:31:34.160 to this have never done it and only kind of 2:31:34.200 --> 2:31:36.720 have a vague idea of what that means. So can 2:31:36.760 --> 2:31:39.760 you sort of walk us through the I don't know. 2:31:39.920 --> 2:31:42.840 So there's a week that has a bargaining session, can 2:31:42.879 --> 2:31:45.080 you walk through the process of what goes into that. 2:31:45.920 --> 2:31:46.960 Yeah, definitely. 2:31:47.400 --> 2:31:50.039 So in a week where we might have a bargaining session, 2:31:50.080 --> 2:31:53.359 say we have a bargaining session on Wednesday and Thursday, 2:31:54.000 --> 2:31:57.800 as a committee will meet probably the Monday the tuesday 2:31:58.000 --> 2:32:02.920 to prepare whatever our counter proposals will be. So whether 2:32:03.000 --> 2:32:05.600 or not that's on economics. So we're getting back and 2:32:05.600 --> 2:32:08.160 we're adjusting our salary proposals that are going to go 2:32:08.200 --> 2:32:12.280 across the table, or we're adjusting what we're asking for 2:32:12.680 --> 2:32:15.680 in severance, how many weeks of severance we're asking for. 2:32:15.840 --> 2:32:18.680 So we'll spend some time as a committee going through 2:32:18.720 --> 2:32:23.080 those proposals and basing our decisions off of like, this 2:32:23.120 --> 2:32:26.120 is where we have an intention of landing, this is 2:32:26.120 --> 2:32:28.840 where management is right now, this is what in our 2:32:28.879 --> 2:32:33.360 conversations with the other unit members we've figured out is 2:32:33.440 --> 2:32:35.640 most important to people, So we'll. 2:32:35.440 --> 2:32:36.960 Make counters based on that. 2:32:37.840 --> 2:32:41.200 Lately, our sessions have those sessions have looked like preparing 2:32:41.320 --> 2:32:44.959 to who in the committee is going to be presenting 2:32:45.000 --> 2:32:48.879 that contract language across the table, so we'll divvy up 2:32:48.920 --> 2:32:52.320 those presentations and Tracy might present on diversity, I might 2:32:52.360 --> 2:32:56.039 present about the salary minimums. We might have another committee 2:32:56.040 --> 2:32:59.680 member present on severance and things like that, so well 2:33:00.080 --> 2:33:02.160 sort out who is going to say what, and we'll 2:33:02.200 --> 2:33:05.480 also plan out any other sort of editorializing that we're 2:33:05.520 --> 2:33:07.800 going to do across the table, like this is why 2:33:07.879 --> 2:33:12.600 we're making a move here, because it's important to our unit. 2:33:12.760 --> 2:33:17.240 For this reason, we've also planned out actions that we're 2:33:17.240 --> 2:33:20.040 going to do across the table and having unit members 2:33:20.120 --> 2:33:23.920 read testimonials about certain contract items. 2:33:24.120 --> 2:33:25.320 So those are all of the. 2:33:25.280 --> 2:33:30.080 Things that we might prepare for ahead of the bargaining session. 2:33:30.400 --> 2:33:34.320 And then on the actual day of bargaining session, we'll 2:33:34.360 --> 2:33:37.240 go in and we'll meet as a committee in the morning. 2:33:37.720 --> 2:33:41.480 We're either presenting first our proposals or management is presenting 2:33:41.520 --> 2:33:45.400 to us. As a bargaining committee will be there to 2:33:45.440 --> 2:33:48.039 hear the proposals. There may be some sessions that are 2:33:48.080 --> 2:33:50.760 more important than others, so we'll invite the whole unit 2:33:50.840 --> 2:33:54.760 to hear those proposals, and we will over those two 2:33:54.840 --> 2:33:57.760 days sort of go back and forth, presenting across the 2:33:57.800 --> 2:34:01.400 table what our proposals are and the counter propose and 2:34:02.080 --> 2:34:05.160 with the idea of like getting closer to a contract 2:34:05.200 --> 2:34:09.000 that is fair and like Tracy said earlier, industry standard. 2:34:09.560 --> 2:34:10.360 That sums it up. 2:34:11.040 --> 2:34:13.680 Yeah, and I guess this leads us to the second 2:34:13.760 --> 2:34:21.480 part of contract negotiations, which is management's counterproposals. So, you 2:34:21.480 --> 2:34:26.440 know something, something I think is kind of surprising when 2:34:26.520 --> 2:34:28.080 when when you do this for the first time, is 2:34:28.120 --> 2:34:30.280 the extent to which management simply will not show up 2:34:30.280 --> 2:34:30.680 on time? 2:34:33.520 --> 2:34:35.240 Yeah? 2:34:35.360 --> 2:34:37.880 Yeah, So how has it actually been sitting across the 2:34:37.920 --> 2:34:41.760 table from management and you know, hearing their counter proposals 2:34:41.920 --> 2:34:44.879 and dealing with whenever they show up. 2:34:47.400 --> 2:34:50.840 Uh, all of my bargaining so far has been happening 2:34:50.879 --> 2:34:54.920 on the other side of a zoom or a team's screen. 2:34:55.600 --> 2:35:00.720 Since I'm remote to everybody else, which is a blessing curse, right, 2:35:00.800 --> 2:35:03.400 I have kind of a buffer. I'm not having to 2:35:03.480 --> 2:35:05.879 directly look at the faces of the people who are 2:35:06.520 --> 2:35:09.960 coming in with salary proposals that are dramatically less than 2:35:10.040 --> 2:35:13.400 what we proposed and what we feel as industry standard 2:35:13.400 --> 2:35:16.279 at this point. But it also means that like I'm 2:35:16.840 --> 2:35:20.080 by myself. I don't have somebody near me to when 2:35:20.240 --> 2:35:25.880 like management leaves the room personally react with we got 2:35:25.920 --> 2:35:28.640 to go around the circle in the whoever's in the 2:35:28.720 --> 2:35:32.240 room and on the screen to sort of say our reactions. 2:35:32.720 --> 2:35:36.879 But like it's it's lonely sometimes to do it from afar. 2:35:37.560 --> 2:35:41.720 I do definitely have to practice keeping my expression neutral 2:35:41.879 --> 2:35:47.800 because sometimes what we are hearing is not neutral expression territory. 2:35:48.720 --> 2:35:54.040 And I also really was not totally prepared to hear 2:35:54.160 --> 2:35:58.880 management justify their positions on things like I will feel 2:35:58.920 --> 2:36:02.039 strongly that the correct and most ethical thing to do 2:36:02.200 --> 2:36:06.480 is a particular thing, and then management will explain their 2:36:06.480 --> 2:36:09.400 position on something and I'll sort of be like, that's 2:36:10.120 --> 2:36:11.959 that's not the decision I would like you to be 2:36:12.040 --> 2:36:15.320 making at all. And I'm a little upset that I 2:36:15.480 --> 2:36:17.080 just heard you say that just now. 2:36:18.440 --> 2:36:21.920 Yeah, yeah, And I'm in Atlanta, So most of our 2:36:21.959 --> 2:36:25.560 bargaining sessions have happened in Atlanta. We have also have 2:36:25.680 --> 2:36:28.080 them in New york Er or le but so I 2:36:28.120 --> 2:36:31.160 have been in person for most of the sitting down 2:36:31.240 --> 2:36:34.640 across for management and like waiting a few hours after 2:36:34.720 --> 2:36:38.359 when they said they would be ready to present their proposals, 2:36:38.800 --> 2:36:43.560 and it is like tense and frustrating to sit in that, 2:36:43.879 --> 2:36:47.039 and to Tracy's point, like, it is nice that we 2:36:47.160 --> 2:36:51.039 have the rest of the committee with us to or 2:36:51.200 --> 2:36:53.880 whoever's in Atlanta with us to sort of share in 2:36:53.920 --> 2:36:58.359 that together. But the energy does get really tense at times, 2:36:58.520 --> 2:37:02.879 especially in those situations where we've presented, hey, we would like, 2:37:03.520 --> 2:37:06.800 however many days of bereavement leave so we can grieve 2:37:06.879 --> 2:37:10.520 our family members, and then management comes back with an 2:37:10.560 --> 2:37:11.279 offer that's. 2:37:11.120 --> 2:37:13.760 Like, well, what about just a couple of days to. 2:37:13.800 --> 2:37:17.640 Grieve your dead family member? And so in those situations 2:37:17.640 --> 2:37:20.080 where it's like, do you think of me as a 2:37:20.080 --> 2:37:25.640 fellow human being deserving of these like very basic things 2:37:25.680 --> 2:37:28.160 to make my life livable. 2:37:28.560 --> 2:37:31.160 And then their answer sort of feels like a no. 2:37:31.240 --> 2:37:32.880 And you kind of just have to like sit in 2:37:32.920 --> 2:37:35.400 that in person while they say it to your face. 2:37:37.360 --> 2:37:40.840 Yeah, and I mean, especially when it's something that personal 2:37:41.040 --> 2:37:43.400 or it's that or if it's something that parental leave 2:37:44.360 --> 2:37:48.640 where you know this is your child, right, and yeah, 2:37:48.760 --> 2:37:51.600 you're sitting across a table from someone being like, oh, yeah, no, 2:37:51.720 --> 2:37:56.080 you actually you should get like two days to deal 2:37:56.120 --> 2:38:00.840 with this. It's just really brutal we had. 2:38:01.000 --> 2:38:03.279 It was a few months ago. We had a session 2:38:03.320 --> 2:38:06.880 where we had a lot of testimonials that were accompanying 2:38:06.920 --> 2:38:11.039 our actual contract proposals, and some of them were read 2:38:11.080 --> 2:38:13.800 by the person who had written the testimonial, and some 2:38:13.879 --> 2:38:16.680 of them were read by a different bargaining committee member 2:38:16.680 --> 2:38:19.840 because somebody was just more comfortable remaining anonymous and having 2:38:19.840 --> 2:38:24.200 somebody do that for them. And we had testimonials that 2:38:24.240 --> 2:38:26.200 were all over the map in terms of things that 2:38:26.240 --> 2:38:28.200 we were still in the process of bargaining, So we 2:38:28.240 --> 2:38:32.160 had diversity testimonials, we had testimonials about parental leave, all 2:38:32.200 --> 2:38:35.240 of this stuff. And one of the things that wound 2:38:35.280 --> 2:38:38.959 up being just enormously frustrating was that it felt like 2:38:39.040 --> 2:38:42.440 we went through all that and we presented so many 2:38:42.440 --> 2:38:45.080 things about why this matters so much to all of us, 2:38:45.680 --> 2:38:48.120 and the next round of counter proposals that we got 2:38:48.160 --> 2:38:52.600 were like the same negligible movements as from before we 2:38:52.680 --> 2:38:56.720 had all read all of the testimonials. And that was 2:38:56.800 --> 2:38:59.240 not my favorite day of bargaining by far. 2:39:00.240 --> 2:39:03.560 No, Yeah, that one was not not fun to be 2:39:03.680 --> 2:39:04.040 in on. 2:39:15.040 --> 2:39:17.640 And we are back, so, I mean, we've talked a 2:39:17.640 --> 2:39:21.959 little bit about kind of belief stuff, and you know, 2:39:22.120 --> 2:39:24.160 something like we've talked a little bit about some of 2:39:24.160 --> 2:39:29.119 the issues that have been stuck in negotiations for two years, 2:39:29.200 --> 2:39:32.959 but yeah, I wanted to sort of see, you know, 2:39:33.040 --> 2:39:37.320 talk talk about sort of the specifics of where of 2:39:37.400 --> 2:39:40.520 where the contract negotiations are right now, and how far 2:39:40.600 --> 2:39:44.000 apart the company and the union is and also just 2:39:44.520 --> 2:39:46.000 and this is something that I think has been a 2:39:46.040 --> 2:39:51.960 theme of these negotiations is the extent to which management 2:39:52.560 --> 2:39:57.400 is below industry standard. So yeah, I guess we could 2:39:57.400 --> 2:40:00.520 start with sort of wages there because of one of 2:40:00.520 --> 2:40:03.000 the places where they're very much below standard. 2:40:04.120 --> 2:40:06.560 Yeah, I think we only have a TA on one 2:40:07.320 --> 2:40:13.000 a TA being a tentative agreement on one title and 2:40:13.080 --> 2:40:16.560 only for the rate that they're proposing in New York 2:40:16.600 --> 2:40:19.440 City in LA. Another big thing with our minimums is 2:40:19.440 --> 2:40:23.600 that they're different for producers and other titles living in 2:40:23.600 --> 2:40:26.279 New York City in LA than they are for people 2:40:26.879 --> 2:40:30.160 in those roles in other cities. So yeah, we are 2:40:31.280 --> 2:40:36.360 very far apart still on our salary minimums. 2:40:37.080 --> 2:40:40.520 Yeah, when we put together our proposals on salary minimums, like, 2:40:40.560 --> 2:40:42.720 we didn't make them up out of nowhere. We did 2:40:42.720 --> 2:40:45.560 a lot of research on pay rates at other unionized 2:40:45.600 --> 2:40:49.280 podcast shops and other podcast businesses. We came up with 2:40:49.360 --> 2:40:52.360 numbers that felt fair and industry standard based on all 2:40:52.400 --> 2:40:56.280 of that research, and then management just came in so 2:40:56.440 --> 2:40:59.800 much lower than all that. And then as Noomes just said, 2:40:59.800 --> 2:41:03.080 there's this differential they're proposing between New York and LA 2:41:03.400 --> 2:41:07.200 and everywhere else. Most of our unit is not in 2:41:07.320 --> 2:41:09.680 New York or LA. A big chunk of the unit 2:41:09.879 --> 2:41:12.920 is in Atlanta specifically, and the cost of living in 2:41:12.959 --> 2:41:16.640 Atlanta is just not that much lower than New York 2:41:16.720 --> 2:41:19.920 or LA. At this point. We've also been way apart 2:41:19.959 --> 2:41:24.360 on annual increases. Originally management was proposing not to have 2:41:24.440 --> 2:41:28.120 annual increases in the contract at all, and they've moved 2:41:28.160 --> 2:41:30.840 past that, but the current proposals are still way way 2:41:30.959 --> 2:41:32.840 less than the rate of inflation. 2:41:33.440 --> 2:41:38.320 I mean, it's about half, like half of what inflation is. Yeah, 2:41:38.360 --> 2:41:41.160 like it does, it's not even inflation amount. And I 2:41:41.240 --> 2:41:44.280 will say that like for many of the job titles, 2:41:44.760 --> 2:41:49.080 they're so far below what industry standard is. With the 2:41:49.200 --> 2:41:52.760 like very little incremental movement that they make every bargaining session, 2:41:52.840 --> 2:41:56.439 it's clear that they the company doesn't have any interest 2:41:56.480 --> 2:42:00.240 in getting the industry standard despite the fact that it 2:42:00.280 --> 2:42:05.879 is like a large and well ranked podcasting company. 2:42:06.520 --> 2:42:12.640 Yeah, yeah, we just got the Webby Award as Podcast 2:42:12.760 --> 2:42:17.440 Company of the Year, and we continue to be like 2:42:17.480 --> 2:42:21.760 when rankings come out of the biggest podcast networks, like 2:42:21.800 --> 2:42:27.119 we're always at or right near the top of the rankings. 2:42:27.160 --> 2:42:29.800 All of that, we have a lot of shows that 2:42:29.840 --> 2:42:35.360 are really well respected in you know, whatever subject matter 2:42:35.520 --> 2:42:40.680 they are discussing, whatever broadly speaking genre of podcasts, and 2:42:40.720 --> 2:42:46.040 so it sucks to then look at pay scales that 2:42:46.320 --> 2:42:50.240 just don't line up with that in terms of like 2:42:50.320 --> 2:42:54.480 the minimum of what the company will commit to offering people. 2:42:55.760 --> 2:42:57.959 Yeah, and I think the person to increased thing is 2:42:57.959 --> 2:43:01.520 really frustrating too, because again, the way this works out 2:43:01.560 --> 2:43:03.800 with inflation. And remember that, so you know, if we 2:43:03.879 --> 2:43:07.360 started bargaining in twenty twenty two, right, inflation in twenty 2:43:07.400 --> 2:43:10.440 twenty two was like three like twice what it is now. 2:43:11.640 --> 2:43:13.640 And if if you're getting, if you're not getting this 2:43:13.680 --> 2:43:16.000 is something I think that's important for everyone to understand, 2:43:16.040 --> 2:43:17.920 is that if you're not getting so for inflation right 2:43:17.920 --> 2:43:19.680 now is about three point four percent, If you're not 2:43:19.720 --> 2:43:22.600 getting a three point four percent pay increase this year. 2:43:22.640 --> 2:43:25.160 That means you you you are taking a pay cut 2:43:25.320 --> 2:43:30.120 every single year, right, And the fact that you know 2:43:30.200 --> 2:43:33.480 this is this is what my management's proposal is, you 2:43:33.520 --> 2:43:36.840 take a pay cut every single year and you're supposed 2:43:36.840 --> 2:43:41.240 to be fine with this is incredibly frustrating. And I 2:43:41.520 --> 2:43:44.000 don't I don't think it's it's it's it's not really 2:43:45.840 --> 2:43:49.000 understood in in terms of you're literally taking a pay 2:43:49.000 --> 2:43:51.960 cut very much. It's just talked of like it's it's, it's, 2:43:52.000 --> 2:43:55.039 it's it's something that's talked about. Is just like another benefit. 2:43:55.080 --> 2:43:57.840 But like, no, we're trying not to take a pay cut. 2:43:58.080 --> 2:44:01.800 But yeah, yeah, I like to if my salary is 2:44:01.840 --> 2:44:05.400 going to not take me any further at least not 2:44:05.520 --> 2:44:07.400 take me any farther back. 2:44:07.720 --> 2:44:08.879 Yeah, I don't need to. 2:44:08.840 --> 2:44:12.800 Lose money every year like I've done this year in 2:44:13.000 --> 2:44:14.600 starting my second year at the company. 2:44:14.800 --> 2:44:17.840 Right, there's been a lot of people who have not 2:44:18.040 --> 2:44:24.360 had a raise since like before the pandemic started, and like, 2:44:24.440 --> 2:44:28.240 I'm incredibly lucky. I have been at my job forever. 2:44:28.480 --> 2:44:30.360 I'm on one of the biggest shows that we have 2:44:30.440 --> 2:44:36.320 in the network. Like I'm doing okay, right, but a 2:44:36.320 --> 2:44:40.040 lot of my colleagues who work on shows that don't 2:44:40.080 --> 2:44:43.760 have as much power, don't have as big of an audience, like, 2:44:43.800 --> 2:44:46.280 don't have as much much of an ad budget of 2:44:46.480 --> 2:44:48.800 people who have been with the company less time, people 2:44:48.879 --> 2:44:52.560 who are like earlier on in their careers, especially like 2:44:52.680 --> 2:44:57.840 I've watched these folks go through the last four years 2:44:58.680 --> 2:45:00.959 with no increase in their pay, and like, I can 2:45:01.040 --> 2:45:04.520 see people struggling now financially in a way that they 2:45:04.560 --> 2:45:09.760 weren't struggling financially in twenty nineteen because their pay has 2:45:09.800 --> 2:45:12.800 not changed at all, but the how much it costs 2:45:12.840 --> 2:45:16.000 to exist in the world is so much more expensive. 2:45:18.040 --> 2:45:23.200 Yeah, we have some members right now who like would 2:45:23.240 --> 2:45:28.879 receive a pay increase with what's being proposed currently, but 2:45:29.080 --> 2:45:32.160 it is nowhere near the majority. Most people are going 2:45:32.200 --> 2:45:36.840 to lose money with the numbers as they are right now. 2:45:46.920 --> 2:45:49.480 Yeah, And that's one of the things that just you know, 2:45:49.560 --> 2:45:52.680 I mean, and even the sort of industry standards in 2:45:52.760 --> 2:45:55.760 podcasting isn't great, but that's one of these things that's 2:45:56.080 --> 2:45:59.000 you know, very much below industry standard. And there's been 2:45:59.000 --> 2:46:01.320 another one of these things that I wanted to talk 2:46:01.320 --> 2:46:08.480 about that's kind of baffling that I think everyone involved 2:46:08.520 --> 2:46:11.440 thought that this would be something that there wouldn't be 2:46:11.440 --> 2:46:14.000 a huge fight over. But that's at will employment. 2:46:14.720 --> 2:46:18.199 You talk about that, Yeah, Yeah, I love too. 2:46:19.600 --> 2:46:23.080 So just cause employment means your employer has to have 2:46:23.320 --> 2:46:28.120 just cause to terminate your employment. Your employer cannot just 2:46:28.160 --> 2:46:31.320 do it willy nilly. And it's a core part of 2:46:33.160 --> 2:46:36.160 like the rights that unions bargain for is to have 2:46:36.200 --> 2:46:38.920 a process for somebody to be disciplined and lose their job. 2:46:39.800 --> 2:46:45.600 It's a very basic thing, basic union protection. And the 2:46:45.640 --> 2:46:50.959 management has held firm that they basically want to not 2:46:51.000 --> 2:46:53.640 only have at will employment standards, but like enshrine that 2:46:53.680 --> 2:46:54.840 in the contract. 2:46:56.560 --> 2:46:58.920 Yeah, meaning that they want to be able to fire 2:46:59.000 --> 2:47:02.360 us for any reason and at any time, regardless of 2:47:02.400 --> 2:47:08.280 whether or not we've done something actually warrant that loss 2:47:08.280 --> 2:47:08.959 of our income. 2:47:10.320 --> 2:47:12.840 Yeah, And that's something I think is really important that 2:47:12.879 --> 2:47:15.000 I don't think people think about it this way. But 2:47:15.800 --> 2:47:18.119 you know, both for if you're doing work that's politically 2:47:18.200 --> 2:47:22.640 sensitive or also if you are marginalized, that is a 2:47:22.760 --> 2:47:25.440 you know, not not having your boss not be able 2:47:25.480 --> 2:47:28.920 to fire you for literally any reason is it's a 2:47:29.000 --> 2:47:31.760 necessary piece of protection. And if you don't have that. 2:47:31.879 --> 2:47:34.680 You can have a situation where I don't know, you 2:47:34.680 --> 2:47:37.360 have one boss who's racist, one boss who's transphobic, and 2:47:37.720 --> 2:47:41.520 you know, you and everyone like you's careers are just gone. 2:47:41.680 --> 2:47:45.360 And without that kind of protection, you know, it's it's 2:47:45.400 --> 2:47:50.280 incredibly it's incredibly dangerous for like, for marginalized people to 2:47:51.320 --> 2:47:53.199 you know, I mean even just like to be able 2:47:53.240 --> 2:47:57.040 to speak up about things that are happening to you. Right, like, yes, 2:47:57.080 --> 2:48:00.879 like tech technically speaking, retaliation is illegal. However, come up 2:48:02.160 --> 2:48:07.560 see the entire history of labor in America and tell 2:48:07.600 --> 2:48:09.840 me whether it tell me, explain to me whether or 2:48:09.879 --> 2:48:12.039 not it act, it still actually happens, especially when you 2:48:12.040 --> 2:48:14.800 can just fire someone for some other reason or again, 2:48:14.800 --> 2:48:16.880 in this case, you can fire them for no reason. 2:48:17.680 --> 2:48:21.039 Yeah, yeah, And it's it's a thing that is so 2:48:21.280 --> 2:48:25.560 baffling because there's no union contract. 2:48:25.080 --> 2:48:26.400 Without just cause. 2:48:26.520 --> 2:48:29.720 Like there's a number of reasons why people unionize. Obviously 2:48:29.720 --> 2:48:34.240 we want better salaries, Obviously we want better healthcare. But 2:48:34.280 --> 2:48:38.400 there's you don't form a union and then still allow 2:48:39.000 --> 2:48:41.920 a contract that says yeah, and also though we can 2:48:42.000 --> 2:48:44.480 fire you at any reason, because that is sort of 2:48:45.440 --> 2:48:49.200 the antithesis of like what we're about here, which is 2:48:49.240 --> 2:48:53.800 that there's like due process and structures in place that like, 2:48:53.879 --> 2:48:55.360 people who provide the labor for. 2:48:55.320 --> 2:48:56.640 This company can't just like. 2:48:58.160 --> 2:49:01.480 At a moment's notice, be out out of healthcare and 2:49:01.480 --> 2:49:04.520 in common all of that comes with that. 2:49:06.800 --> 2:49:09.400 Yeah, I mean politically like it's it. And you know, 2:49:09.400 --> 2:49:11.200 if you look at this as a political system, it's 2:49:11.200 --> 2:49:14.240 a difference between pure dictatorial rule where everything is just 2:49:14.280 --> 2:49:16.920 done purely by fiat right, where you know, like the 2:49:17.280 --> 2:49:19.160 person who rules you can do whatever they want to you, 2:49:20.000 --> 2:49:22.680 and there being something like a functional legal process which 2:49:22.680 --> 2:49:26.440 constrains the power of rulers to just sort of enact 2:49:26.440 --> 2:49:29.400 their will on you. And that's you know, an incredibly 2:49:29.440 --> 2:49:32.520 fundamental basic part of what a union is is the 2:49:32.560 --> 2:49:34.000 democratization of the workplace. 2:49:34.480 --> 2:49:38.600 Yeah, yeah, that's That's one of the things that I 2:49:38.600 --> 2:49:41.080 think is so important about just the right to unionize 2:49:41.080 --> 2:49:43.160 in general that I think a lot of people who 2:49:43.400 --> 2:49:46.680 have never been part of a union don't fully understand. 2:49:47.440 --> 2:49:50.920 I'm basing some of this based on comments I continually 2:49:50.959 --> 2:49:54.560 see on ARII ads, which I am served all the 2:49:54.600 --> 2:49:58.320 time as a person who hikes a lot, because currently 2:49:58.440 --> 2:50:01.480 their comments on their ads are a whole lot of 2:50:01.520 --> 2:50:04.720 people saying, stop union investing ARII. And then there are 2:50:04.720 --> 2:50:06.920 always people who are like, it's retail. If you don't 2:50:06.959 --> 2:50:09.400 like it, get a better job, or they're saying something 2:50:09.440 --> 2:50:12.119 like ARII has always voted one of the greatest employers, 2:50:12.160 --> 2:50:14.400 Like you should just be thankful for what you have, 2:50:15.080 --> 2:50:18.760 And I'm like, the thing is, though, an employer has 2:50:18.840 --> 2:50:22.800 so much more power than an individual employee. Your employer 2:50:22.920 --> 2:50:26.320 has a whole HR structure and lawyers and way more 2:50:26.400 --> 2:50:30.560 money than any individual person working for them. And that's 2:50:30.640 --> 2:50:35.160 why employees have the right to come together collectively to 2:50:35.360 --> 2:50:38.480 just balance that out a little bit. Like a union 2:50:38.560 --> 2:50:41.600 is still going to have a power differential between themselves 2:50:41.640 --> 2:50:45.200 and the company. We have a whole lot more equity 2:50:45.320 --> 2:50:47.720 and a whole lot more access to that power together 2:50:48.360 --> 2:50:52.160 than as one individual person going to their manager asking 2:50:52.280 --> 2:50:55.360 nicely to have a couple extra days off because their 2:50:55.400 --> 2:50:56.880 parent died or whatever. 2:50:58.760 --> 2:51:00.920 Yeah, as the old is these, the old song goes, 2:51:01.000 --> 2:51:03.240 what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength 2:51:03.240 --> 2:51:06.560 of one, but the union makes us strong. Yeah, I 2:51:06.560 --> 2:51:08.600 think I think that's a good sort of place to 2:51:08.720 --> 2:51:15.240 end on. The negotiations are still ongoing, flying next week. 2:51:15.800 --> 2:51:20.720 To be there in person next week already. Yeah, yeah, 2:51:20.879 --> 2:51:23.680 a little scary. I don't know what to wear to 2:51:23.800 --> 2:51:24.760 an office anymore. 2:51:25.879 --> 2:51:29.560 Oh see, and me either. I actually just show up 2:51:29.640 --> 2:51:31.800 how I am always in my normal life. 2:51:32.040 --> 2:51:33.840 So I encourage you to do the same. 2:51:34.800 --> 2:51:36.640 Can I get a Union shirt from you when I 2:51:36.680 --> 2:51:37.080 get there? 2:51:37.280 --> 2:51:38.119 Oh please? 2:51:38.200 --> 2:51:41.760 They're literally clogging my home and I would love to 2:51:41.800 --> 2:51:44.440 give you one. So I have one of us. 2:51:47.440 --> 2:51:47.760 All right. 2:51:47.800 --> 2:51:50.960 So where can people go to find the Union and 2:51:51.080 --> 2:51:52.039 to support us. 2:51:52.440 --> 2:51:57.279 We are on Twitter at Iheartpod Union. We're on Instagram 2:51:57.360 --> 2:51:59.320 also at Iheartpod Union. 2:52:00.040 --> 2:52:01.840 Yeah, that's where you can find us. On social media. 2:52:02.240 --> 2:52:08.000 We're on Blue Sky at iHeart Podcast Union. I have 2:52:08.080 --> 2:52:09.640 the keys to that one right now, and I have 2:52:09.720 --> 2:52:12.600 not been really active with it. I'm sorry. 2:52:13.600 --> 2:52:17.800 Yeah, many an update goes out on the Twitter so 2:52:18.200 --> 2:52:19.480 you can stay in touch there. 2:52:21.360 --> 2:52:25.600 Yeah. And in the in the meantime between now and bargaining, 2:52:25.640 --> 2:52:27.959 this has been naked appen here. Thank you to so 2:52:28.040 --> 2:52:30.880 much for coming on and yeah, let's let's get let's 2:52:30.920 --> 2:52:32.560 let's let's get ourselves a good contract. 2:52:32.760 --> 2:52:33.120 Yeah. 2:52:33.280 --> 2:52:36.520 Yeah, we're gonna get a good contract. And it is 2:52:36.680 --> 2:52:38.400 such a pleasure to work with the both of you. 2:52:38.879 --> 2:52:41.560 Oh, yes, you too. Thank you so much Mia for 2:52:41.600 --> 2:52:42.080 having us on. 2:52:42.360 --> 2:52:45.560 Yeah for sure, always happy to all right, And this 2:52:45.680 --> 2:52:48.520 is also your daily union episode reminder that you too 2:52:48.959 --> 2:52:51.480 can do this. You too can spend an enormous amount 2:52:51.480 --> 2:52:52.800 of time going through a spreadsheet. 2:52:54.120 --> 2:52:56.320 Then finally spreadsheets. 2:52:55.879 --> 2:52:58.640 Turn it look. Unionization is the process of turning a 2:52:58.680 --> 2:53:01.080 spreadsheet into into a fighting organization. 2:53:02.720 --> 2:53:06.360 You two can get lost in a sea of Google docs. 2:53:07.480 --> 2:53:10.840 But I promise you all, as as much as this 2:53:10.959 --> 2:53:14.240 episode has been about, you know, the sort of stubbornness 2:53:14.240 --> 2:53:17.240 of management and how you know and how kind of 2:53:17.320 --> 2:53:20.440 demoralizing that process can be, it is worth it, I 2:53:20.480 --> 2:53:23.640 promise you all. It is and you can You can 2:53:23.640 --> 2:53:24.119 do it too. 2:53:27.640 --> 2:53:27.879 Hey. 2:53:27.959 --> 2:53:31.080 We'll be back Monday, with more episodes every week from 2:53:31.080 --> 2:53:32.800 now until the heat death of the universe. 2:53:33.400 --> 2:53:35.920 It Could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 2:53:35.959 --> 2:53:38.680 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 2:53:38.680 --> 2:53:40.920 cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 2:53:40.959 --> 2:53:44.400 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 2:53:44.760 --> 2:53:46.880 You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 2:53:46.959 --> 2:53:51.000 monthly at cool zonemedia, dot com, slash sources, thanks for listening.