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Speaker 1: Al Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to it could happen here a podcast

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Speaker 3: about things falling apart and how we try to put

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Speaker 3: them back together again. I'm your guest host, Margaret Kiljoy,

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Speaker 3: and with me this week is one of your regular hosts. Here,

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Speaker 3: higare Hello, this week is one of those putting things

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Speaker 3: back together episodes. The premise of this episode is simple.

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Speaker 3: Let's say you're newly radicalized. Maybe you are participant in

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Speaker 3: the occupations and now the school year is over, or

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Speaker 3: you got expelled and you're wondering what the next steps are.

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Speaker 3: This won't be an it's all in one guide to

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Speaker 3: how to become an activist, but it's sort of a

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Speaker 3: sketch of one. It's also not quite a complete Summer

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty four guide to Protests, but there's some of

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Speaker 3: that in here too. It's a Magpie's guide to getting

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Speaker 3: started in activism. I want to start with my own

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Speaker 3: biases upfront because it's going to inform everything that I

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Speaker 3: have to say about all of this. I'm an anarchist.

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Speaker 3: It's also been decades since I've broke into the movement.

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Speaker 3: I've been doing this stuff since two thousand and two,

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Speaker 3: when I dropped out of college to join the ultra

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Speaker 3: globalization movement. So I have biases towards things like dropping

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Speaker 3: out of college because it worked for me, and I

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Speaker 3: have You know, a lot of my experience isn't recent,

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Speaker 3: at least my direct experience personally, but I've been watching

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Speaker 3: people come into the movement for a very long time.

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Speaker 3: I also have biases against authoritarian organizing and electoral organizing,

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Speaker 3: and biases towards direct action and autonomy as models for

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Speaker 3: radical social change. I believe this is how you build

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Speaker 3: a freer and better world by practicing freedom along the way.

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Speaker 3: But you can adapt this to suit your own interests.

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Speaker 3: That's not to say I have any interest in guiding

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Speaker 3: people towards specific paths, specific actions, specific issues, and movements

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Speaker 3: exactly the opposite. This is my attempt to kind of

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Speaker 3: give a the big picture view of how one might

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Speaker 3: get involved right now. I don't know if you knew this, Gaar,

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Speaker 3: the world's kind of in trouble.

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Speaker 4: I have heard this before. I have heard this said.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, do you ever like think about how your job

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Speaker 3: is to be a professional chicken little?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Sometimes I guess so. Yeah, I mean I'm definitely in

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Speaker 4: the dredges trying to find what horrible things are always happening.

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Speaker 3: Certainly, yeah, I would say, even though the world is

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Speaker 3: always in serious trouble, it's like extra in serious trouble

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Speaker 3: right now, and we are in desperate need of people

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Speaker 3: who dedicate their time, whether part of it or all

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Speaker 3: of it, to trying to stop the terrible things that

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Speaker 3: are happening and trying to build beautiful things and beautiful alternatives.

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Speaker 3: So how do you get started? I want you to

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Speaker 3: think about a couple different things that are separate from

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Speaker 3: each other. I want you to think about This isn't

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Speaker 3: necessarily you gare, although you could if you want, sure,

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Speaker 3: why not?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? What do you care about?

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Speaker 3: Like? What issues are specifically important to you? It's the

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Speaker 3: first thing to think about. The second is what do

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Speaker 3: you want to do about it? And if you have

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Speaker 3: a sense of that, and like also kind of how

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Speaker 3: far you're willing to go. If you get a sense

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Speaker 3: of those things before you throw yourself into the fight,

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Speaker 3: you're going to start off strong. Those things can change,

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Speaker 3: they will change over time, but getting a sense of

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Speaker 3: those ahead of time is a good way to figure

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Speaker 3: out which door you want to go in, and then

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Speaker 3: also to avoid some of the dangers that lie on

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Speaker 3: the other side of any given door. What do you

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Speaker 3: care about? What movements and projects speak loudest to you?

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Speaker 3: A ton of causes are interconnected, of course, right the

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Speaker 3: fight for Palestinian liberation is not at its core separate

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Speaker 3: project than the fight against policing in the United States,

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Speaker 3: for example, the rise of a global police state is

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Speaker 3: everyone's problem, and so is the US and Zionist imperial project.

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Speaker 3: Causes are interconnected, but you can rarely start by trying

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Speaker 3: to fix everything. Usually got to pick somewhere to start working.

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Speaker 3: You don't climb a mountain by just willing yourself to

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Speaker 3: the top. You climb it by picking a place and

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Speaker 3: then starting to climb it. Maybe you're concerned about the

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Speaker 3: police state or surveillance, or the erosion of rights or

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Speaker 3: Palestinian liberation, or fighting for prisoners in the US to

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Speaker 3: still have access to books, or for LGBT rights, or

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Speaker 3: for migrants at the border, or for the protection of

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Speaker 3: the remaining national ecosystems and stopping the expansion of fossil

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Speaker 3: fuel infrastructure. Maybe you're concerned about something hyper local, like

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Speaker 3: the destruction of a local park or the sweeping of

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Speaker 3: homeless encampments. Maybe it's something a bit broader and more abstract,

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Speaker 3: like you want to get involved in explaining the need

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Speaker 3: for police abolition, but there's something, there's some that you

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Speaker 3: want to change. As a place to start, the second

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Speaker 3: question is what do you want to do. There's multiple

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Speaker 3: questions embedded in this. There's how far are you willing

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Speaker 3: to go? We'll talk more of that later, more immediately,

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Speaker 3: what is your skill set or what skill sets do

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Speaker 3: you wish you had? Like a lot of times I'll

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Speaker 3: just be like, oh, hey, what are you good at?

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Speaker 3: And now I'll go do that. But sometimes like what

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Speaker 3: you're good at isn't what you want to be doing.

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Speaker 3: And it's also totally okay to be like, well, what

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Speaker 3: do I want to be good at, Like what do

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Speaker 3: I want to be trying to focus on what do

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Speaker 3: you have to offer the revolution or what do you

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Speaker 3: wish you had to offer. Are you in med school

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Speaker 3: or have other first aid or medical experience, Maybe you

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Speaker 3: want to plug in with your local street medics. Are

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Speaker 3: you studying law? Movement lawyers need paralegal help, and there

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Speaker 3: are groups that use volunteers to get people out of

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Speaker 3: jail or through difficult court cases. If graphic design is

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Speaker 3: your passion, this is me referencing a meme from a

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Speaker 3: million years ago and totally winning people over. Every group

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Speaker 3: that exists needs help with their flyers or Instagram slideshows.

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Speaker 5: Or whatever the fuck.

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Speaker 4: That is certainly the case.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, No, it's it's funny too, right, because it's like

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Speaker 3: it's one of those things where if you do graphic design,

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Speaker 3: you sort of think like, oh, everyone sort of does

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Speaker 3: this or whatever, right, And then I've been part of

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Speaker 3: groups where people are like, no one knows how to

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Speaker 3: do this at all, and everything is that we make

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Speaker 3: as garbage, you know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, although there is actually a careful needle to thread

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Speaker 4: in this vein, because if you've had enough experience, you

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Speaker 4: can kind of figure out what type of action it's

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Speaker 4: gonna be based on how well designed and the flyer is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and which way. If it's kind of corporate well designed,

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Speaker 3: it's like gonna tie into electoral politics and be boring.

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Speaker 3: But if it's hip and well designed, it's a riot.

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Speaker 5: Well.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes there's sometimes there's some like very like well designed

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Speaker 4: flyers that are not like very electoral, but they're like, okay,

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Speaker 4: this will be a marge, will be some speeches, we'll

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Speaker 4: kind of walk around a little bit, because it's like

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Speaker 4: a very well potad flyer versus when you have like

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Speaker 4: a white background of big block attacks, maybe one poorly

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Speaker 4: cropped picture, you're like, okay, this is obviously a riot flyer.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, okay.

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Speaker 4: It takes a degree of subtlety to get the instincttional

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Speaker 4: difference when you're looking at a collection of flyers that

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Speaker 4: are going out.

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Speaker 6: No.

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Speaker 4: See.

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Speaker 3: This is interesting to me because in like about fifteen

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Speaker 3: years ago, the like the people throwing the best riots

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Speaker 3: were like a bunch of graphic designers, and so it

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Speaker 3: was the specific anymore. Yeah, okay, okay, Well you know,

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Speaker 3: and actually, as a good graphic designer knows the language

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Speaker 3: that they are speaking with and that is what they're communicating,

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Speaker 3: So that might be what you want to do is

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Speaker 3: get involved in making the flyers. If you spend all

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Speaker 3: day on Twitter. A lot of activist groups can't find

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Speaker 3: someone to run their social media, or they have people

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Speaker 3: who run it very badly. Sometimes being an extrovert is

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Speaker 3: a superpower. Building strong movements means building strong communities, and

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Speaker 3: every meeting and party needs someone willing to introduce themselves

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Speaker 3: to the new people and help them figure out where

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Speaker 3: to go. The best activist meetings I've ever been to

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Speaker 3: have like someone who's there to sit next to new

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Speaker 3: people and explain what's going on. Also, if you can

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Speaker 3: plan a party, you can plan a benefit show to

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Speaker 3: raise money for bail funds. There's kind of this like

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Speaker 3: like whenever I talk about this, like oh, everyone has

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Speaker 3: their place, and people are like, why don't I'm a

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Speaker 3: fucking bookkeeper, and I'm like, oh my god, we need you,

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Speaker 3: or like, you know, all kinds of different skill sets

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Speaker 3: that people like don't think apply actually do project manager. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: we're we're not all instinctively good at that, you know.

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Speaker 3: And so the quickest way to sum this part of

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Speaker 3: it up is you think about what's wrong, and you

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Speaker 3: think about what you're good at, and then you get

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Speaker 3: together with other people and apply what you're good at

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Speaker 3: to stopping what's wrong. That is the like one sentence

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Speaker 3: version of how to start getting involved in making the

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Speaker 3: world better. But the last part of it that I

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Speaker 3: I want the question of it beforehand is risk analysis.

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Speaker 3: It is very easy to get swept up in the

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Speaker 3: moment and go beyond your comfort zone in terms of

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Speaker 3: risk in a lot of different environments. The more you

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Speaker 3: have sorted out ahead of time about what kinds of

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Speaker 3: actions you're comfortable with strategically, morally, and personally, the easier

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Speaker 3: it is to stick to your decisions when things get hard.

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Speaker 3: For example, you might tell yourself I will risk arrest,

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Speaker 3: but I will not get arrested on purpose because I

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Speaker 3: have a massage license I don't want to lose. Or

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Speaker 3: I have kids at home, or I'm undocumented, or I

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Speaker 3: don't like the idea of jail. Whatever your reason is,

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Speaker 3: there's plenty of reasons to make that decision. You might

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Speaker 3: be willing to risk arrest, like be in a hectic riot,

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Speaker 3: but you're not willing to lock your neck to a bulldozer.

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Speaker 3: So when you go to the planning meeting for the

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Speaker 3: lock your neck to a bulldozer action and you're trying

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Speaker 3: to figure out who wants to lock their neck to

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Speaker 3: the bulldozer. You've already made up your mind, and you're

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Speaker 3: less likely to kind of pressure your self into volunteering.

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Speaker 4: Or feel pressured by others.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm imagining the positive version. Well, okay, because it's

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Speaker 3: very rarely someone's like, hey, gear been a while since

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Speaker 3: you locked your neck to anything, and it's usually more like, man,

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Speaker 3: it just sure would be good if someone was bold

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Speaker 3: and noble enough to just step up right now and

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Speaker 3: then yeah, yeah, I mean I've organized some of my

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Speaker 3: friends arrests before, and it's it's not always. That's not

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Speaker 3: always the strategy that people want to be doing anyway.

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Speaker 3: I'm just using this as an example, like what kind

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Speaker 3: of Earth first style thing? If you know what your

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Speaker 3: risk models are, you can make better decisions. Maybe you're

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Speaker 3: fine with a spirited march, but as soon as windows

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Speaker 3: start getting broken, you're like, you know, I want to leave.

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Speaker 3: That's gonna not be my scene. You know, I'm not

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Speaker 3: mad that the people did it, but it's not what

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Speaker 3: I am willing to get arrested in response to it's

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Speaker 3: also important to know your risk levels, which kind of

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Speaker 3: course shift because there are predators in the ranks of

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Speaker 3: direct action activists. I don't know if you knew this,

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Speaker 3: gre there's a shadowy, unaccountable group that tries to get

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Speaker 3: people to break laws. They're called the FEDS. They're called

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Speaker 3: the FBI. They have a history going back decades and

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Speaker 3: then trapping people by coming up with bomb plots or

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Speaker 3: ur some plots or whatever. And we're not going to

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Speaker 3: go into this in depth in this episode, but if

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Speaker 3: you want to do more research, people should look up.

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Speaker 3: They should read about co intel pro it's an acronym,

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Speaker 3: or read about the case of Eric McDavid, or read

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Speaker 3: about how the FBI set up Muslim Americans in the

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Speaker 3: wake of nine to eleven. But another thing you should

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Speaker 3: go into all this knowing is that that doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: that everyone who wants to do those kinds of actions

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Speaker 3: is working with the FEDS.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you shouldn't go around accusing everyone you don't

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Speaker 4: like of possibly being a secret and federal agent.

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Speaker 3: Because you know who likes accusing people of being federal agents. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And also our sponsors they don't they don't they're all great.

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Speaker 3: They might, they might, I don't know. I can't really

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Speaker 3: speak to them, but here they are, they can speak

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Speaker 3: to you, and we're back. That is a thing that

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Speaker 3: is absolutely worth anyone who's getting involved in activism, especially

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Speaker 3: direct action activism, including above grounds of this obedient style action.

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Speaker 3: It is really worth understanding the ways in which federal

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Speaker 3: oppression works, and how federal oppression works often by the

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Speaker 3: fear of federal oppression and getting people to spread paranoia.

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Speaker 3: And so as a general rule, the way that I've

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Speaker 3: always heard it talked about is that it's like you

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Speaker 3: never want to be like, hey, I think that guy's

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Speaker 3: a fed. Instead you're like, hey, guy, that kind of

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Speaker 3: behavior is disruptive and leads towards bad things, you know,

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Speaker 3: Like yeah.

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Speaker 4: And I think I even have some hesitation to just

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Speaker 4: be like you should just just go google co intel

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Speaker 4: pro and learn all about it, because I feel like

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Speaker 4: that can also lead to someone kind of falling down

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Speaker 4: like some conspiracy brained rabbit holes, and like I've gotten

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Speaker 4: the best information by just talking to older people who've

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Speaker 4: like been in the movement for a while, and like

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Speaker 4: just like if someone has like over ten years of experience,

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Speaker 4: and they're like, you can learn a lot about what

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Speaker 4: has happened before through just like actual, like in person conversations.

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Speaker 4: And I found that to be much more useful than

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Speaker 4: just like going down like a Google rabbit hole, because

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Speaker 4: that can just kind of lead to I think slightly

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Speaker 4: even slightly more like paranoid thinking or just it just

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Speaker 4: becomes like less applicable than like, Hey, you have like

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Speaker 4: a friend of a friend who's like done this for

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Speaker 4: a while, and you just ask, hey, like what if

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Speaker 4: what do you know about this sort of thing? Now

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Speaker 4: you're right, what are your experiences of kind of of

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Speaker 4: facing like repression in the past. The true chances are

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Speaker 4: some of them will probably know people who've either turned

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Speaker 4: out to be like informants, has started informing, or we're

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Speaker 4: bad actors from the from the get go, like it's

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Speaker 4: it does, it does happen. And there's even been case

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Speaker 4: it's not even just stuff from ten fifteen years ago.

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Speaker 4: There's a lot of that stuff post twenty twenty. Some

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Speaker 4: really some stuff in h in Chicago, some stuff in

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Speaker 4: Colorado Springs have gotten decent news coverage. I think you

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Speaker 4: can also you can look to articles specifically of the

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Speaker 4: Colorado Springs infiltration that that that the FBI was running

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Speaker 4: around twenty twenty. I think that's a really useful case

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Speaker 4: study for a more recent version as opposed to like

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Speaker 4: the green scare stuff from at this point like twenty

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Speaker 4: years ago.

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Speaker 3: No, No, it's true, and there's a good there's actually

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Speaker 3: a good podcast series where I liked it called Alphabet Boys.

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Speaker 3: The first season is about that case. No, that's a

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Speaker 3: good point that you that random internet search is not

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Speaker 3: the way to get this kind of information, this information

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Speaker 3: like you'll Honestly, it's kind of funny. I would trust

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Speaker 3: a random zine in a radical bookstore far more than

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Speaker 3: I would trust a Google search result, agreed, which is

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Speaker 3: not true for everything like healthcare. Well, you're gonna get

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Speaker 3: shit answers no.

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Speaker 5: Matter what if you do that.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, the internet is gonna tell you have cancer,

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Speaker 3: and the zine's going to tell you that tea tree

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Speaker 3: oil will fix it.

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Speaker 5: Yes, there we go.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, No, that is actually a very good point, and

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Speaker 3: it is the kind of thing that Yeah, the longer

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Speaker 3: you're involved, the more you're just like, oh, yeah, the

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Speaker 3: you know my ex who's a snitch that sucks? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know Anyway, now you have what you care about,

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Speaker 3: what your skills are, and your risk analysis, it's time

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Speaker 3: to get started. How there's two basic ways, and they're

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Speaker 3: not really a dichotomy, but you can plug into something

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Speaker 3: that exists and you can start something of your own,

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Speaker 3: and both are valid and both have advantages and disadvantages.

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Speaker 3: There are structures and movements that are already in place

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Speaker 3: that are desperate for your help. There's a catch. Many,

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Speaker 3: not all, but many of the more reasonable groups are

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Speaker 3: challenging to break into. Very few groups have a truly

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Speaker 3: open door policy, and those that do honestly sometimes or suspect. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: some of those people are just trying to use you.

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Speaker 3: They're trying to suck you into a political political cult

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Speaker 3: or use your energy and burn you out for some

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Speaker 3: vaguely progressive politician or activist cause. So either way, you're

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Speaker 3: going to need to exercise some common sense and do

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Speaker 3: some reading and research about what you're getting into. The

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Speaker 3: best publicly accessible groups and movements are the ones that

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Speaker 3: are organized from the bottom up, because the participants themselves

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Speaker 3: have a say in what's happening. There is less ability

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Speaker 3: to be sucked into a cult and used. That's not

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Speaker 3: to say it's impossible, and there are such things as

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Speaker 3: decentralized cults that don't do any you.

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Speaker 4: Know, many such cases.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but I know it's easy and convenient to join

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Speaker 3: a group that'll just tell you what to do. It's

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Speaker 3: very nice to imagine that there's benevolent people who will

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Speaker 3: just do the hard part of making decisions and you

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Speaker 3: can just show up and clock in and listen to

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Speaker 3: what they have to say and make the world better place.

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Speaker 3: This is rarely, if ever the case. I can't point

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Speaker 3: to examples of it being the case. Movements that maintain

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Speaker 3: everyone's autonomy instead, I think are what are interesting, and

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Speaker 3: they often do it by not being a group at all,

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Speaker 3: just a movement. The uprisings of twenty twenty, I think

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Speaker 3: are a brilliant example of this. There's not the group

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Speaker 3: that organized, no, but.

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Speaker 4: There's a lot of smaller, smaller groups, whether that be

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Speaker 4: some like informal organizations, formal organizations, or just like groups

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Speaker 4: of friends that it's made up of a whole bunch

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Speaker 4: of these smaller groups. And I think a lot of

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Speaker 4: times the best case scenario in many cases is if

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Speaker 4: you have like a friend or too because you shouldn't

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Speaker 4: really show it to things alone, I would say, but

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Speaker 4: if you have a friend or two, go with the

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Speaker 4: friender too. Just like just go to things. And if

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Speaker 4: you go to enough things and people see you, you

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Speaker 4: can chat with people, you can start learning more about

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Speaker 4: kind of what the different mechanisms in each different city,

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Speaker 4: each each even't seen how how they operate. It's it's

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Speaker 4: it's it's kind of silly just to be like, no,

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Speaker 4: you just like have to like show up. But like

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Speaker 4: that is kind of a lot of how it works.

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Speaker 4: You'll maybe hear about a Instagram account that posts flyers

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Speaker 4: for semi weekly like picnics organized by some of these

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Speaker 4: same people, and then you can go to events like

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Speaker 4: that and learn to like socialize. And it really just

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Speaker 4: does require a degree of just showing up. And you

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Speaker 4: shouldn't go by yourself. You should if you you should

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Speaker 4: ideally have a friend or two that you that is

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Speaker 4: that they would be okay going with you. But then

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Speaker 4: you'll you'll find people to connect with and you'll kind

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Speaker 4: of maybe find a different group of people that you

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Speaker 4: want to start hanging out with more. And I think

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Speaker 4: in general that's kind of how the best case scenario works,

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Speaker 4: as opposed to like joining like a big above ground

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Speaker 4: organization which is just going to use your body as

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Speaker 4: a tool to get arrested as or just treat you

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Speaker 4: as disposable or in other cases just be actually kind

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Speaker 4: of like abuse of.

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Speaker 3: I agree with that, and that's some of that we're

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Speaker 3: going to get into also. But yeah, no, and I

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Speaker 3: will say overall, absolutely it is better to do those

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Speaker 3: things with friends. I didn't I started going to things alone.

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Speaker 3: That has something to do with my temperament, and that

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Speaker 3: has something to do with my social standing when I

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Speaker 3: was in college and decided to get involved in the movement.

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Speaker 3: But overall, that is the best practice. But if you're

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Speaker 3: listening to this and you're like, I don't have friends

386
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Speaker 3: I can go do this stuff with, there are more

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Speaker 3: risks involved, and you're also kind of stuck. You're going

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Speaker 3: to go to a lot of things where no one

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Speaker 3: will talk to you, yeah, you know, and you can't

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Speaker 3: necessarily expect that people talk to you immediately or like,

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Speaker 3: and you're going to have to be a little bit

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Speaker 3: more self motivated.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And if you're going to a zine fair, you

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Speaker 4: can chow some people at like the tables when you're

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Speaker 4: looking for a zine. It's like it's, yeah, now everyone's

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Speaker 4: going to want to get into a deep personal conversation

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Speaker 4: with a stranger they met at an event like this

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Speaker 4: because it also has like security risks. But yeah, I

399
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Speaker 4: mean it's it's going to require a little bit of

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Speaker 4: uncomfortable social interactions, which for yeah, for someone like you

401
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Speaker 4: or me who did go to a lot of these

402
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Speaker 4: things just by ourselves, you know, it just it just

403
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Speaker 4: kind of takes more time.

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Speaker 3: No, totally. And I think actually ze fairs and things

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Speaker 3: like that and anarchist book fairs and all that are

406
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Speaker 3: like really good examples of places that are publicly facing

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Speaker 3: that are designed for people to interact with each other.

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Speaker 3: And also, like one of the main pieces of advice

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Speaker 3: that we we have is be brave, right, and we

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00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:29,280
Speaker 3: talk about that in terms of like street actions, but like, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 3: also social anxiety exactly exactly, because how much of so

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Speaker 3: social anxiety will become like an inhibiting factor similar to

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Speaker 3: like the state not saying these things are equal, but

414
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,480
Speaker 3: they can both like inhibit you from doing things, and

415
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,240
Speaker 3: it's both you can you can kind of approach it

416
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,920
Speaker 3: via similar means of trying to like overcome this thing

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00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:53,879
Speaker 3: that is limiting your autonomy. Yeah, no, totally. So to

418
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Speaker 3: go back to if you're joining an existing group, some

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Speaker 3: groups maintain everyone's autonomy by being struck horizontally. Some groups

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Speaker 3: that exist as a structure will do it by being

421
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Speaker 3: structured horizontally. If you found yourself for go ahead, claim

422
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 3: to be structured horizontally as well. No, it's true, but

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Speaker 3: like like if you join a local Earth First chapter,

424
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Speaker 3: you're going to find there's absolutely informal hierarchies that exist

425
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Speaker 3: within these things, and they're like worth being aware of.

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Speaker 3: But the decision about who's going to lock their neck

427
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Speaker 3: to the bulldozer is going to involve everyone who might

428
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Speaker 3: lock their neck to the bulldozer.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not the same as like the DSA or

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Speaker 4: the PSL, Like it's it's going to be a very

431
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 4: different organizational structure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, And so you know you want to be

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Speaker 3: part of the decision making about locking your neck to

434
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Speaker 3: a bulldozer because it's your neck on the line. That's

435
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Speaker 3: my best joke in the whole script. I'm sorry, we'll

436
00:21:47,480 --> 00:22:01,399
Speaker 3: just move past it quickly. Thanks. Plugging into an existing

437
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:05,160
Speaker 3: project is often a good first step. What I did personally.

438
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,680
Speaker 3: I started showing up to the meetings of this radical

439
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 3: media project, Indie Media. I had film skills, and soon

440
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 3: enough I found myself in the film collective. I spent

441
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 3: a year or two bouncing around from demonstration to demonstration,

442
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 3: coordinating with all the radical videographers to collect everyone's footage

443
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 3: and edit together news videos about what had happened, while

444
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,120
Speaker 3: we collectively fostered a culture of like respectful riot videography.

445
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 4: I did not realize we had that similar background.

446
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,879
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, that it's interesting because I don't. I

447
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 3: don't do that stuff anymore. But that was like my

448
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:37,880
Speaker 3: thing for a long time.

449
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,879
Speaker 4: Me either, actually, But no, I did not realize we

450
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 4: had we had that, we had that overlap.

451
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, and it was It was great and it

452
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,159
Speaker 3: was fun and we you know, we taught how to

453
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,360
Speaker 3: not film people's faces. We coordinated runners where in order

454
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 3: to get footage out before the cops could get it.

455
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,879
Speaker 3: We'd make sure everyone, you know, someone, every videographer had

456
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,199
Speaker 3: someone next to them, like ready to run out of

457
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 3: the situation.

458
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,639
Speaker 4: Take this SD card and run yep, exactly.

459
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 3: And I started off by joining an existing group that

460
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,199
Speaker 3: was doing this, but within a few months I was

461
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,120
Speaker 3: doing it independently and coordinating with different groups that came

462
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 3: together at all these different summit protests because I was

463
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 3: a known entity to people. You know, it was fun.

464
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 3: I dropped out of school where I've been studying film

465
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 3: and photography, and even before I would have graduated, a

466
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,640
Speaker 3: film I had edited sold out a movie theater in Portland.

467
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 3: We didn't have YouTube, so we organized in person.

468
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,400
Speaker 4: Kate, that makes sense, Yeah, yeah.

469
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:39,439
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah. When when we shut the city down on

470
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 3: like March twentieth or whatever, twenty two thousand and three

471
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 3: for to try and stop the Iraq war, I like

472
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 3: didn't sleep and just edited everyone's film footage together and

473
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 3: made a like thirty minute documentary about the day of

474
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,399
Speaker 3: protest and sold out a movie theater. And I was like, damn,

475
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 3: this was way better for my career than going to

476
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 3: fuck it stay it's school. I mean, like, my name

477
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 3: isn't on it, but that like didn't matter to me. Sure,

478
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 3: And then everyone the local news media got really mad

479
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 3: because I didn't include the stuff that could have been

480
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 3: used in people's court cases, like the time that people

481
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 3: attack cops on the bridge, because I was like, nope,

482
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 3: that's too recent. We don't know what's happening there anyway,

483
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,919
Speaker 3: And getting into certain types of groups is kind of

484
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 3: like applying for a shitty job. A job that'll take

485
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 3: you without reference is going to treat you like shit.

486
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 3: But jobs that are worth having require you to somehow

487
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 3: have already been doing the job before you got hired,

488
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 3: and once people know who you are, it's easier to

489
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,439
Speaker 3: find folks who work with And I think gear Suggestions

490
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 3: is like the main way you go about that is

491
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 3: you don't necessarily show up to organize. You just show

492
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 3: up to participate. You show up to talks, you show

493
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 3: up to radical bookstores and public events and zine fairs

494
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 3: and protests and whatever interests you you know. And I

495
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 3: would say that if you're going to actions and you're new,

496
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 3: remember to be both brave and cautious. If you tend

497
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 3: towards recklessness and being so wept into things, maybe make

498
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 3: sure you take less of a frontline's role until you

499
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 3: get your legs underneath you. But it really is okay

500
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 3: to be brave. I think we're asked by the times

501
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 3: we live in to be brave, and sometimes we're gonna

502
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 3: have to step outside of our comfort zone. We should

503
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 3: just always look to make sure it's us encouraging us

504
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 3: to step outside of our comfort zone instead of political

505
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 3: actors whatever political ideology they call themselves.

506
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 4: And also if you can another collective that people you know,

507
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 4: these are like usually like medic collectives will maybe maybe

508
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 4: we'll have like a radical media collective and another another

509
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 4: one will be a jail support collective is very common

510
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 4: a lot of cities, and not even if you don't

511
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 4: want to take part in that, if you can at

512
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 4: least get in touch with them to fill out a

513
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 4: jail support form before going to things. That will also

514
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 4: be useful in case you do end up getting arrested,

515
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 4: so people can actually find you in the system and

516
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 4: help you get out of get out. Just another quick tip,

517
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 4: I suppose.

518
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, And if you want more quick tips, I've got

519
00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 3: some for you right now and we're back. Don't do

520
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 3: anything that you just got told by voices that aren't

521
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 3: me or there.

522
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 4: They were trying to saihap you it is it is

523
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 4: the yeah yeah.

524
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 3: Another way that you might get involved in something is

525
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 3: you Some groups are semi open where you can contact

526
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 3: them and express interest and they might do some basic

527
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 3: screening to make sure you're not like a Nazi infiltrator

528
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,360
Speaker 3: or whatever. I'm in the process right now of doing

529
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 3: that with clinic escorting. It's like funny because I haven't

530
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 3: had to like prove myself to any group in a

531
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,479
Speaker 3: long time, right because I'm like I've been around forever.

532
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 3: The clinic escorting group, it's like, we don't fucking know

533
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 3: who you are, like, and I'm like, yeah, that's fair,

534
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 3: give me, yeah, no, absolutely. I live in a place

535
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 3: is not where abortion is not particularly popular with the

536
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 3: right wing, and so I submitted my name and social

537
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 3: media accounts to the to the abortion clinic escorting place,

538
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 3: and then we'll go to a training at some point

539
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 3: soon for folks living in southern California or willing to

540
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 3: go there. For example, there are groups that do border

541
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 3: solidarity working with refugees to make sure they're fed in house.

542
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 3: If you listen to this podcast, you've heard James talking

543
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 3: about this, and this is the first episode you've listened to,

544
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 3: in which case, go back and listen to James talking

545
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 3: about border solidarity work. If you want to show up

546
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 3: and distribute food and water, track border patrol activity, build shelters,

547
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 3: do first DAID, all of that. Feel like you're part

548
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 3: of something because you are and are like saving people's

549
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 3: lives directly, that's something you can likely get involved with,

550
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 3: but it's not something you just show up at. There

551
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 3: are a few groups doing that work, any of whom

552
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 3: you can reach out to and express interest. There's border Kindness,

553
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 3: there's Borderlands Relief Collective and Al Ultra Lado, and there's

554
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 3: other groups like this in different areas. But these are

555
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 3: the examples where I asked James being like, Hey, how

556
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 3: do I explain the following concept? In general, you want

557
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,959
Speaker 3: to look for groups. If you're looking for groups, you

558
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 3: want to look for groups that are grassroots and non authoritarian.

559
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 3: You want to watch out for electoral campaigns, and you

560
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 3: want to watch out for nonprofits. This is not to

561
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 3: say that the people doing these things are necessarily bad.

562
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 3: There are local political campaigns that matter, and there are

563
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 3: nonprofits that do good work. Some of the best political

564
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 3: work I ever did was two years out a nonprofit, honestly,

565
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 3: but I got I was with one of the good ones.

566
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 3: And structurally those systems, even the good ones, are set

567
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,959
Speaker 3: up to take advantage of people's energy and then like

568
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 3: kind of profit off of it, right, and to accomplish

569
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 3: goals that are often tangential to or even counter to

570
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 3: the goals that they claim. For example, both politicians and

571
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 3: nonprofits live off of donations. These donations are easy for

572
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 3: them to get when those groups are seen as necessary,

573
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 3: so a nonprofit has a financial interest in not winning.

574
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 3: Some nonprofits manage to maintain their focus and make themselves

575
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 3: work to make themselves obsolete, but frankly those are the minority.

576
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 3: You also want to look out for groups that are

577
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 3: front groups for thor tearing. Groups attached to communist political

578
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 3: parties you mentioned earlier, like the PSL the Party for

579
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 3: Socialism and Liberation. Generally speaking, these groups will go to

580
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 3: protests and run events, primarily as a way to recruit

581
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 3: people into a hierarchical structure. These groups are often trying

582
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 3: to control broader movements that they're involved in. They'll tell

583
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 3: people how they can and can't protest, and they're trying

584
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 3: to essentially own movements that were built by others. So

585
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 3: those are things to be careful around. You can also

586
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 3: just not worry about any of that stuff and start

587
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 3: something yourself. It is not the easy mode to get

588
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 3: into the movement by starting your own projects. We're going

589
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 3: to talk about afinity groups later. Actually it was the

590
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 3: thing that you kind of started to bring up. But

591
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 3: it is very rewarding to start your own projects. It's

592
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 3: like freelancing instead of looking for a job. There's no

593
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 3: gatekeepers to cross, and the only person who's trying to

594
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 3: take advantage of you is you. If you want to

595
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 3: never not be working another day in your life, you

596
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 3: can freelance or start your own political project. It'll be

597
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 3: what you think about every hour you're alive. In essence,

598
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 3: the idea here is to say, okay, what's wrong and

599
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 3: what are we willing to do about it, and then

600
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 3: get together with your friends and start doing something about it.

601
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 3: This can look like anything.

602
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 8: You could start.

603
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 3: A mutual aid group, a radical bookstore, an anti fascist

604
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 3: gym to trained to defend yourself from fascists, illegal HRT

605
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 3: distribution in band States, a direct action abortion collective, a

606
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 3: zine distributor that goes to shows and parties with free

607
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 3: literature about anarchism. A podcast about how things fall apart

608
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 3: and how to put them back together again. A click

609
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 3: of saboteurs who attack billboards, a group that draws attention

610
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 3: to international movement prisoners, and support them like you can

611
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 3: do anything. And that's one of the things that people.

612
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 3: Our society is designed to tell us that we can't

613
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 3: just do anything we want. There's obviously things that if

614
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 3: we do, we'll get in trouble eventually.

615
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 4: But like you know, okay, like like if you make

616
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 4: a podcast that's too good, Yeah, they will, they will

617
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 4: turn on you like Jesus, Yeah exactly. Or if you

618
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 4: go around, you know, wanting to destroy construction equipment.

619
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 3: Right, not usually legal. I'm not a lawyer. I can't

620
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 3: tell you whether or not any given bulldozer is illegal

621
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 3: to destroy. That is the kind of research you might

622
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 3: have to do on your own. The difference between start

623
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 3: something and enjoining something is often blurry. For example, you

624
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 3: can unionize your workplace. You probably should, but you might

625
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 3: want to do that in the context of an existing

626
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 3: union like the Industrial Workers of the World or whatever

627
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: union makes the most sense where the writer's field of America,

628
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly. If you have a podcast, but how the

629
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 3: world's falling apart?

630
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah exactly.

631
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 3: If you're going to start something above ground, it's worth

632
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 3: looking around and making sure that the need isn't already

633
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 3: being met by someone else.

634
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 9: Already.

635
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's better to figure out how to help an

636
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 3: existing bail fund rather than start another. But also sometimes

637
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 3: it is better to start another, like it's harder for

638
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 3: the police tarrade, for example, which didn't used to be

639
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 3: an issue when you start bail funds, but is now

640
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 3: an issue, which is worth pointing out that like there's

641
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 3: no true safety, you know, like when we talk about

642
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 3: risk analysis, like running a bail fund is entirely legal

643
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 3: and is the kind of thing that often is done

644
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 3: by the people who care about a movement and are

645
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 3: like not frontlines people.

646
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, aren't wanting to do felonies in downtown right Portland

647
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 4: or whatever.

648
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, the more successful a movement is the broader. The

649
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 3: state repression will reach out to the fringes, not the fringe.

650
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 3: I mean, the bail fund isn't the fringe, but the

651
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 3: less privery. The people who aren't committing the felon felonies. Yeah,

652
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 3: are going to get tagged with felonies anyway, because the

653
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 3: state being repressive is the reason we're fighting it.

654
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 4: They will still get their houses rated. And it's the

655
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 4: same same thing ad demos. You don't need to be

656
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 4: the one breaking windows for the least to tackle you, Like,

657
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 4: at a certain point, it actually doesn't. It seems to

658
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 4: matter very little. I mean, if things get to trial,

659
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 4: then things you know will maybe matter a bit more.

660
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 4: But in like how police display the power of the state,

661
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 4: Like out in the open world, it really doesn't matter

662
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,479
Speaker 4: if you're holding a sign or you're holding a hammer

663
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 4: when you're getting tackled from behind by a big man

664
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 4: with a gun.

665
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, which is why it's like kind of worth.

666
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 3: I mean that's like almost like what the the answer

667
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 3: to that is like solidarity, and by recognizing that to

668
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 3: a certain degree, if you were at a protest and

669
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 3: people are breaking windows and it's like, okay, well now

670
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 3: we're all in danger together. And if that is a

671
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 3: danger beyond what you particularly feel like exposing yourself to,

672
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 3: that is probably the time to depart. Another pitfall to

673
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 3: avoid if you're starting your own thing. Any group that

674
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 3: involves money will at some point have someone from that

675
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 3: group steal the money.

676
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 4: Including bail funds. Unfortunately, it does, It does happen, and

677
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 4: it sucks.

678
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 6: Yeah.

679
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,280
Speaker 3: I have lost count of the number of times someone

680
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 3: who was an organizer has stolen all of the money

681
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 3: from this or that thing, and that's because capitalism puts

682
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,959
Speaker 3: people in absolutely weird and terrible positions. Right, It's still

683
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 3: not okay for people to steal the bail fund, and

684
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:28,720
Speaker 3: we should stop them. But often the people who steal

685
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 3: the stuff, if they're the organizers, they don't even necessarily

686
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 3: conceptualize what they did as stealing. They're like, oh, I'm

687
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 3: gonna pay that back. I don't think anyone needs it

688
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 3: right now. I just need it for rent.

689
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 4: In order for the bail fund to continue, I have

690
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 4: to have stable housing. So we need to use these

691
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 4: two thousand dollars right now, and.

692
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, right without checking with the rest of the group,

693
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 3: and like, you know, like, and so if there's money involved,

694
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 3: you should set up some best practices around multiple eyes

695
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 3: on the money at any given point and making sure

696
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 3: that it's accountable to the broader group. One organizing model

697
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 3: that is worth considering is the affinity group. This is

698
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 3: basically you and some of your closest friends that you

699
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 3: feel like doing safe with actions with. Whatever the scale

700
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 3: of actions, you get together with your friends.

701
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 4: Or people you're not even necessarily like social friends with,

702
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,720
Speaker 4: but people you feel comfortable working with. Because there sometimes

703
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 4: is a distinction like you said, sometimes you have a

704
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 4: lot of close friends you don't want in your affinity group,

705
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 4: and sometimes there's people in your affinity group that you

706
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,760
Speaker 4: may not really want to hang out with like every

707
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 4: week totally, but they're good to work with. Now, that's

708
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 4: a really good point. It's about trust rather than like

709
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 4: getting along with sometimes. You know, Yeah, it might function

710
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 4: better if you know you don't all hate each other, ah,

711
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 4: have some affinity. Yeah, yes, you know, but perhaps you

712
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 4: have a shared affinity within the group.

713
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 5: Ideally.

714
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. If you're in a riot, whether by

715
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 3: choice or by accident, you are safer and you can

716
00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 3: feel more comfortable if you are there with two or

717
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 3: seven of your closest and most trustworthy friends or frenemies.

718
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 3: These are the people who are the most likely to

719
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,760
Speaker 3: de arrest you. These are the people who are there

720
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 3: to notice if you are caught and will organize your bail.

721
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,399
Speaker 3: These are the people who will be in direct You'll

722
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 3: be in direct communication with during the protest, so you

723
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 3: can coordinate your actions together.

724
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 4: It's figure out how you want to get into the

725
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 4: area get out of the area.

726
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so that's like a going alone is sort

727
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 3: of expert mode and so you should take fewer risks

728
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 3: if you go alone until you are good, you know,

729
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 3: and most people do not prefer and do not are

730
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 3: not better off going to protest alone. And then the

731
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 3: final thing kind of tying together the existing groups versus

732
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 3: whatever else existing protests movements EBB and flow protests are contagious,

733
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 3: especially when they're rowdy and they show that they take

734
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 3: themselves seriously enough to not just go along with whatever

735
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 3: professional protest managers tell them to do, and take them

736
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 3: seriously enough to resist the police and authorities. It's more

737
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 3: or less impossible to know which protests like sparks will

738
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 3: catch a bigger fire. It is good and useful to

739
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 3: cast sparks and see what catches, or to notice when

740
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 3: something is starting to spread and to help it spread.

741
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 4: Like what happened a few weeks ago with the campus stuff,

742
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 4: right exactly, one or two places really start popping off

743
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 4: and you're like, hey, I know some people in college

744
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 4: who are in whatever town I'm in. Maybe we can

745
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 4: figure something out.

746
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so's if that was your involvement. And you're like, oh,

747
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 3: that's not currently happening where I am anymore. What do

748
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 3: I do next? Things like that will happen again, and

749
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 3: you can also make things like that happen. Most of

750
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 3: the time they will not catch. However, sometimes they do,

751
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 3: and that is like kind of our job in a

752
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 3: lot of ways, is to organize things and try things

753
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 3: and see what catches. I'm curious your take. There are

754
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 3: two political conventions happening this year. The Republican National Convention

755
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 3: been from July fifteenth to eighteenth, twenty twenty four in Milwaukee,

756
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 3: and then in August nineteenth to twenty second in Chicago

757
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 3: is the Democratic National Convention. They're basically always protests at

758
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 3: these conventions to me, and I'm a little bit out

759
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,879
Speaker 3: of touch with it. There's going to be more this year, Yeah,

760
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 3: that's what I'm thinking. There certainly will, I think, especially

761
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 3: at the DNC. I don't have much to say on

762
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 3: this at this point besides read up on the previous

763
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 3: ones that have happened. You can go all the way

764
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 3: back to sixty eight if you want to read about

765
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 3: Chicago and the DNC, but also like the RNC protests

766
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 3: from the Iraq War era, I think would be verly

767
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 3: useful to look at if you want to go back

768
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 3: to like two thousand and eight and see how those

769
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 3: protests were. I would just recommend reading up on it.

770
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 3: I don't really have much else to say on those

771
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 3: in the moment.

772
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 4: They're too far out totally to forecast. Yeah, and I yeah,

773
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 4: that's kind of all I'll say at the moment.

774
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 5: These will become a recurring.

775
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 4: Top on this podcast the next few months.

776
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 3: So yeah, And so keep track of what's happening, and

777
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 3: get ready to go to what you feel comfortable with,

778
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 3: and don't be afraid to be brave, but don't let

779
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 3: anyone trick you into doing stuff that you're not comfortable with.

780
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 3: But we need you. We're glad you're here.

781
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, don't be so down that the school year is

782
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,439
Speaker 4: over and these campus protests only had a few weeks

783
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 4: to live. I know there were certainly people who were

784
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 4: really hoping that after we saw you know, what happened

785
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 4: during April and May, that maybe this would you know,

786
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 4: trigger things happening off campus around the summer.

787
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:41,919
Speaker 5: And maybe they still will.

788
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 4: And at the very least, we have a lot of

789
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 4: young people listener possibly included, who like experienced their first

790
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 4: example of like actual state violence like on them, and

791
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 4: that could be a very radicalizing experience. So yeah, don't

792
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 4: don't be so down that maybe your occupation didn't go

793
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 4: as well as you wanted to. Maybe you're protested, and

794
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 4: but I think there's a lot of lessons to learn

795
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 4: from what happened the past month, and they will become applicable,

796
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 4: possibly this summer, possibly two years from now, who knows.

797
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 4: Like it's hard to say, but yeah, it's Whenever you

798
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 4: get that first hint of tear gas, you kind of

799
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 4: become a different person in my opinion, So congratulations to

800
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 4: everyone who did that. Hopefully didn't get arrested, and if

801
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 4: you did, hopefully you have a jail support crew that

802
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 4: is helping you out.

803
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 3: The other thing that I think that people never really

804
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 3: recover from isn't the right word. The first time you

805
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 3: see the police retreat totally, you recognize that this thing

806
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 3: you have been taught is completely unassailable. The reason they're

807
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 3: building cop cities is they know they are assailable and

808
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 3: they want to be less. So well, listen to this podcast,

809
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 3: and that's the only place you'll ever find anything useful.

810
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 3: That's the fine.

811
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 5: I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't say that.

812
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, but there are other podcasts that there's

813
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:00,959
Speaker 4: a lot of books, because there's a lot of zines,

814
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 4: there's a lot of sketchy noblog sites which may sometimes

815
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 4: have misinformation and sometimes have good information yay. And you

816
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 4: could certainly certainly check out Margaret. I've heard that you

817
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 4: yourself had a few other podcasts what I do well

818
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 4: if you want to hear a lot of the history

819
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 4: around some of the stuff we talked about, including like

820
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 4: the co Intel pro stuff. For example, I run a

821
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 4: podcast called Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff on this

822
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 4: very network, cool Zone Media, and you can listen to

823
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 4: it every Monday and Wednesday. I just finished a very long,

824
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 4: but I swear entertaining series of episodes about the Russian

825
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 4: Revolution in the Civil War. I've did an episode about

826
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 4: the Burglars for Peace who exposed co Intel pro by

827
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 4: robbing an FBI office in the middle of the night

828
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 4: in the early seventies, and all kinds of other stories,

829
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 4: So you can listen to that, or if you want

830
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 4: to know more about the end of the world. I

831
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 4: help run a podcast called Live Like the World Is Dying,

832
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:05,240
Speaker 4: comes out every Friday, and that one is Prepper Butt Community. Yep,

833
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 4: there were go And I have a book coming out.

834
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 4: It comes out of September. It's called The Sapling Cage

835
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 4: and it's going to be kickstarted in June, and if

836
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 4: you go to Kickstarter you can sign up for announcements

837
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 4: about that. And it is the best book I've ever written,

838
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,439
Speaker 4: so you all should read it. Very excited to see

839
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,959
Speaker 4: that that does it for us, that it could happen here.

840
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 4: We will probably see you out there.

841
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 10: Good luck.

842
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 6: Welcome to Could Happen Here, the only sue where things happen.

843
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 6: I'm Ani Siege of Future Channel Antraism and I'm joined

844
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 6: by Garrison Clo Hello.

845
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 7: Nice.

846
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 6: Recently I've been researching and writing on education and anarchista Honestly,

847
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 6: it's one of my favorite topics to look into, and

848
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 6: it's one of the topics I think I'm most passionate about.

849
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's definitely a hot topic within this political field.

850
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 4: There's a large, large variety of opinions.

851
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 6: One might say for sure, for sure, for sure, I

852
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 6: mean consciousness does form the basis of revolution, and there's

853
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,359
Speaker 6: a long history of anarchist struggle around education, whether it

854
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 6: be in terms of critiquing US role in social control

855
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 6: and socialization, or discussing news liberation, or talking about the

856
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 6: inequalities of the current education system, or the influenza statist

857
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 6: capitalists and religious ideologies, or the whole discussion around sex education.

858
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 6: These are all things that anarchists have looked into discussed,

859
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 6: and so it's to wrestle with.

860
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 11: No.

861
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,959
Speaker 4: It's interesting because anarchists have, like I believe, the large

862
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 4: number of people who are like, very like militantly like

863
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 4: anti school but also have a really high number of

864
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 4: people who become teachers. So it's always kind of interesting

865
00:43:57,920 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 4: when you're ever at like an anarchist gathering, you have

866
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 4: half the people are like school teachers, the other half

867
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 4: are like destroy the schools, which is always just a

868
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 4: little bit amusing.

869
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, for sure, for sure. So it's really I think

870
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 6: people have to deal with that sort of tension. Anarchists

871
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 6: find themselves in those sort of tensions, but then they

872
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 6: also find themselves put themselves in those positions in part

873
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 6: because they see the potential of those positions we you know,

874
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 6: in sort of shape in the future. But I don't

875
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 6: mean to mislead anybody this episode, would it's only tangentially

876
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 6: related to education. Okay, Yeah, So basically in my research

877
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 6: on education, I stumbled upon this article called anarchists of

878
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 6: an Education and early Republican Cuba from eighteen ninety eight

879
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 6: to nineteen twenty five. And also I found some other

880
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 6: works on anarchist Cuba in general and his all thanks

881
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 6: to the scholarship of Kubin Shaffer. And I mean, for

882
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 6: some time now, I've been meaning to dig deeper into

883
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 6: the history of anarchism in Cuba. Dare I say, I

884
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 6: think it's been forgotten, and so I took a dive

885
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 6: into it. I first started with Stephen J. Hersh and

886
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 6: Lucian van der Wald's work in anarchism and syndicalism in

887
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 6: the colonial and post colonial world. And in my research

888
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 6: I also founder work of Sam Dorkoff and Frank Finandez,

889
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 6: both of whom were apparently highly influential in the scholarship,

890
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 6: the historical research and the present understanding of Cuban anarchism.

891
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 6: It's thanks to their research that we know what we know,

892
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 6: bringing all those different things together, all those different sources together.

893
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 6: So here we go, Akivamos, Let's discuss the history of

894
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:46,879
Speaker 6: Cuban anarchism, and our story begins in the early nineteenth century.

895
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,959
Speaker 6: You know, the sun on colonial Cuba, casting a long

896
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 6: and heavy shadow across the vibe and streets of Havana.

897
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,399
Speaker 6: The gentle salty breezes carried I'm trying a new thing.

898
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 6: I see a facial ext friend. I'm trying I like

899
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 6: Can I like it? I'm trying to said the same,

900
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 6: you know, feel those salty breezes carrying the scent of

901
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 6: tobacco and coffee and sugar cane. But let's not get

902
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 6: too romantic. You know, this was a plantation society where

903
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 6: African slaves remained in chains and toiled in the hot

904
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 6: sun while many of their contemporaries gained their freedom and

905
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 6: plantition known as navigated the web of politics and power.

906
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 6: Cuba was among the last countries to abolish slavery, and

907
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 6: the Cuban aristocracy, being uniquely loyal to the Spanish crown,

908
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 6: was primarily responsible for the persistence to that institution. You know,

909
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,720
Speaker 6: they were dedicated to Spain long after much of Latin

910
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 6: America had won their independence, and despite the aristocrat's loyalty,

911
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 6: there were still whispers of liberation and revolution in corners

912
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:58,240
Speaker 6: of the city. In eighteen fifty seven, just nearly two

913
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 6: decades after the French track called pered Joseph Prudin declared

914
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:05,240
Speaker 6: himself an anarchists and a mutualist. The first Proonian Mutualist

915
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 6: Society would be founded in Cuba, marking the early beginnings

916
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 6: of the organized labor movement on the island. A decade later,

917
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 6: in eighteen sixty five, lecturers or readings places where political

918
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 6: ideas we read in cigar factories. They became very widespread

919
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 6: considering the predominance of the tobacco industry, and in the

920
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 6: same year, the first strike threat would occur at a

921
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 6: tobacco works in Havana, leading to successful negotiations for increased wages.

922
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 6: In eighteen sixty six, Havana based artisans would establish the

923
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 6: first evening school for workers, lay in the foundation for

924
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 6: worker based Education. Between eighteen sixty eight and eighteen seventy eight,

925
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 6: conflict would erupt into violence as the sugar mill owner

926
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:55,280
Speaker 6: Carlos Manuel de Sespides and his followers proclaimed independence, beginning

927
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 6: the first of three liberation wars that Cuba fought against Spain.

928
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 6: The first, a horizon led by wealthy planters, would be

929
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,800
Speaker 6: known as the Ten Years' War, and it would be

930
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 6: followed by a second uprising, the Little War, from eighteen

931
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 6: seventy nineteighteen eighty, and meanwhile, the Cubas anarchist movement would

932
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 6: look to establish another worker's school and a newspaper. These

933
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,879
Speaker 6: efforts were led by cigar makers Enrique roy De Saint

934
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 6: Martin and Enrique Messonier. In Havana, greg San Martin founded

935
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 6: this Center of Instruction and Recreation. Its purpose was to

936
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:33,280
Speaker 6: defend worker organizations and distribute anarchal collectivist literature from Spain.

937
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,760
Speaker 6: The doors of the center opened to all Cubans, regardless

938
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 6: of their social position, political leanings, or color differences. Gregson

939
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 6: Martin also took the position of editor at the newspaper

940
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 6: El Obrero, co opting it from the Democratic Republicans and

941
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 6: turned it into an explicitly anarchist newspaper. The anarchists and

942
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 6: tobacco industry were pioneering the emergent labour struggle, bolstered by

943
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 6: the transport of anarchist periodicals from Spain to Cuba and

944
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 6: the transmission of ideas by Spanish immigrant workers. The first

945
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 6: regional centers, clinics, secular schools, mutual aid associations and Free

946
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 6: Association of tobacco workers, typographers, carpenters, day laborers and artisans

947
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 6: were emerging thanks to the influence of Prudon's ideas. While

948
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 6: some in the labor movement were appreciate reformism and collaboration

949
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,720
Speaker 6: with capitalist interests, the anarchists stood firm in their rejection

950
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 6: of submission to the feat of capital. In eighteen eighty five,

951
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 6: the Junta Central de r Tisnos was founded to unite

952
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 6: Cuba's workers in federations. In the same year, in the

953
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 6: RecA Massoniir launched the Circulo de Trabajadores or Workers Circle,

954
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 6: which was focused on educational and cultural activities. The Worker's

955
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 6: Circle became the largest labor organization in Cuba in the

956
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 6: late eighteen eighties. It hosted a secular school for five

957
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 6: hundred poor students to challenge Cuba's public and religious schools.

958
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 6: It held rally for groups of workers, and it led

959
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 6: anti nationalist and anti racist education efforts. Anarchists will also

960
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 6: challenge in discrimination in labor and immigration policies. By eighteen

961
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 6: eighty six, Spain finally outlawed slavery, and the Cuban anarchists

962
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 6: would attempt to welcome Afro Cubans into the labor organizations,

963
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 6: with mixed success. And we'll get to that soon. In

964
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 6: eighteen eighty seven, Roixamartin launched Al Productor, a weekly newspaper

965
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 6: that will become a must read for the work in

966
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 6: people of Cuba, and to coordinate it to publication and

967
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 6: the efforts of the various workers groups, workers founded the

968
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 6: Alianza Oprera or Workers' Alliance. With the founder of the

969
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 6: Alliance and the sponsorship of another organization, La Ferracion de

970
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:49,240
Speaker 6: Tabadores de Cuba or FDC or Federation of Cuban Workers,

971
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 6: the first Congresso Obrero de Cuba would be held in Havana.

972
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 6: Majority of the members of the FDC were tobacco workers,

973
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,400
Speaker 6: but members of other trades also participated, like tailors and

974
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 6: drivers and bakers and baro makers and dock workers. So

975
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:09,240
Speaker 6: that's a lot of organizations in quick succession. So to summarize,

976
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 6: we have the center of instruction recreation, the newspapers El

977
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 6: Peructor and Obrero, the Junta Centrale de Artisanos or Central

978
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 6: Union of Artisans, El Sercuilo de Travajadores or Workers Circle,

979
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:28,320
Speaker 6: the Alianza Obrera or Workers Alliance, and Laferracion de Travajadores

980
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:32,320
Speaker 6: de Cuba or FDC, which held the first Congresso Obrero

981
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 6: or Workers Congress in Cuba. All these organized efforts would

982
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 6: spark another strike. Remember the first threat, which did not

983
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 6: lead to a strike, took place in eighteen sixty five,

984
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,479
Speaker 6: but this time it was different. In July eighteen eighty eight,

985
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 6: the tobacco workers call a strike at the Henry Clay

986
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 6: tobacco factory in Havana. The Workers Circle met and agreed

987
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 6: to begin collecting donations to support the workers out in

988
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 6: the streets, and sent delegates to Key West in Florida

989
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,240
Speaker 6: to solicit aid from the tobacco workers there. The Worker's

990
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 6: Circle was very much involved in a lot of these

991
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 6: things because they actually had a large headquarters that coordinated

992
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 6: the offices of many workers associations. In addition to the

993
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 6: school that I mentioned they founded, they had their fingers

994
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 6: and a lot of the associations and solidarity efforts that

995
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 6: had taken place. By eighteen eighty nine, they founded yet

996
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 6: another school, teaching over one hundred men at night and

997
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 6: eight hundred children during the day. Elegance the establishment of

998
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 6: new schools across the island, And also in eighteen eighty nine,

999
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,439
Speaker 6: those same tobacco workers in Key West called their own

1000
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 6: general strike due to poor working conditions, low wages, and

1001
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 6: stock living conditions. And guess what they stood in solidarity

1002
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 6: with the Cuban workers, and the Cuban workers stood in

1003
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 6: solidarity with them. The Workers Alliance also connected with workers

1004
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:52,320
Speaker 6: organizations in Florida and fosters solidarity between workers in Florida

1005
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 6: and Cuba. In addition to Key West, strikes would also

1006
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 6: break out in Tampa and Ybor City. Despite some violence

1007
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,360
Speaker 6: and the expulsion of the strike leaders, the strike in

1008
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 6: Florida ended in early eighteen ninety with a triumph for

1009
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 6: Florida's tobacco workers as the owners acceded to the demands

1010
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 6: for a pay increase. On May first International Workers Day,

1011
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 6: over three thousand workers marched through Havana, and in this

1012
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 6: time the workers Circle was continuously expanding. But within this

1013
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 6: year also came tragedy, as in August Enrique Roig San

1014
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 6: Martin died at the age of forty six, and the

1015
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 6: last of the three conflicts against Spain would be the

1016
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 6: Cuban War of Independence, which raged from eighteen ninety five

1017
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 6: to eighteen ninety eight. Anarchists in Cuba, New York, and

1018
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 6: Spain debated support for Cuba's independent struggle but despite concerns,

1019
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 6: most anarchists did support independence, seeing it as an anti

1020
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 6: colonial fight against Spanish imperialism and an opportunity to transform

1021
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:58,919
Speaker 6: the island along anarchist principles. Figures like Jose Garcia, Rafael Serra,

1022
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:04,800
Speaker 6: and Adrian del Valle promoted anarchist internationalism while also seek

1023
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 6: in Cuban national liberation. The final three months that conflict

1024
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 6: escalated with US involvement becoming known as the Spanish American War,

1025
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 6: and following Spain's defeat, the US briefly occupied Cuba with

1026
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 6: the promise of greater autonomy in the future. Of course,

1027
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 6: we all know how that promised to endow with repeated

1028
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 6: interventions Kim Crowen anarchist opposition. The US occupiers overhauled the

1029
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 6: Cuban education system and introduced a new model influenced by

1030
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 6: American principles, emphasizing liberal arts, manual instruction, and civic education

1031
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 6: to republicanize the children of Cuba and promote democracy. In

1032
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 6: spite of some reforms, the Cuban education system still suffered corruption,

1033
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 6: inadequate and infrastructure, and overcrowded classrooms. In eighteen ninety nine,

1034
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 6: just a year after independence, the Workers Alliance organized a

1035
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 6: mason's strike which extended into the construction trade and also

1036
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 6: led to several arrests and the overall repression of the anarchists.

1037
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 6: This is a persistent theme, of course.

1038
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 4: Yes, I mean it's interesting, how like in a lot

1039
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 4: of like the political stuff we learned about Cuba, it's

1040
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 4: more based on like the socialist and more communist struggles

1041
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,879
Speaker 4: of the twentieth century. And I knew that there were

1042
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 4: like anarchists active before that and even during that time

1043
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 4: period as well, but there is a lot of this

1044
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 4: that seems to be not nearly as talked about it

1045
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:42,240
Speaker 4: emphasized as the later more socialist leaning struggles that came.

1046
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 6: And you'll notice that, you know, in places where the

1047
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:55,880
Speaker 6: Marxists won, basically any of the pre Marxist victory history

1048
00:55:56,080 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 6: of anarchists involvement tends to be diminished to ever raised entirely. Yeah.

1049
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, like in literally every in every struggle all across

1050
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 4: the world where that's happened. That does seem to be

1051
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 4: the case.

1052
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 6: Exactly exactly when I found this information and my mind

1053
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 6: was blowing, you know, I had no idea all of

1054
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 6: this was going on. Yeah, the fact that from as

1055
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 6: early as Prudon's lifetime, there were anarchists in Cuba organizing associations.

1056
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:29,280
Speaker 4: I mean, come on, yeah, in like the eighteen fifties

1057
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 4: and it.

1058
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 6: Gets bigger, a lot more takes place. I haven't even

1059
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,359
Speaker 6: really breached the other twentieth century yet. That's when things

1060
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 6: really kick off.

1061
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:48,280
Speaker 4: Let's get to that after this message from our sponsors.

1062
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 4: All right, we are back. Let's return to Andrew's discussion

1063
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 4: of anarchism in Cuba.

1064
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:02,359
Speaker 6: Yes, so so. Also in eighteen ninety nine, some new

1065
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 6: anarchist projects dropped onto the scene. You know, you had

1066
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 6: the Liga General de Travadores or General League of Workers,

1067
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:11,879
Speaker 6: which emerged with the back in the Missonia and another

1068
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 6: anarchist ramone Rivero eve Rivero, and also the publication Tierra,

1069
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 6: which was founded by anarchists Abelardo Savedra and Francisco Gonzalees Sola.

1070
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 6: And the publication El Nuevo Idl was also founded, but

1071
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 6: it only lasted a couple of years. Notably, it loudly

1072
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 6: opposed the US's plans for ANIX and Cuba and the

1073
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 6: introduction of the plat Amendment to the Cuban Constitution, which

1074
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 6: would provide pretense for US intervention in the future. The

1075
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 6: plat Amendment was really that point in the Cuban constitution

1076
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 6: that would justify us infusion and involvement for years to come.

1077
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 6: Here's a little easter egg, a little fun fact. It

1078
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 6: will come you. In fact, you could call him a

1079
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 6: run income you for the anarchist worldwide, a familiar face

1080
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 6: because he showed up in Havana in this year, and

1081
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 6: he also showed up in Egypt during their anarchist struggle

1082
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 6: for those who remember that episode, any ideas.

1083
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 4: Too to try to think of this time period who

1084
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 4: at this.

1085
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 6: Point, at this point you could call him mister worldwide,

1086
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 6: the anarchist, mister Worldwide.

1087
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think so. I think I'll only make

1088
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 4: a fool of myself.

1089
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:32,640
Speaker 6: Yeah. The one and only Erko Malichester arrives in Cuba.

1090
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 5: Oh okay, okay, that makes sense, that makes sense.

1091
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

1092
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:41,439
Speaker 6: Yeah, mister worldwide. Of course, it didn't take long before

1093
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 6: he was barred from speaking in public and he very

1094
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 6: quickly had to leave Cuba, but he was there. He

1095
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:49,280
Speaker 6: did show up and let me reach the you know,

1096
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 6: the turn of the century. Right just after the turn

1097
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 6: of the century, on May twentieth nineteen oh two, the

1098
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 6: First Republic of Cuba was inaugurated with the recognition of

1099
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 6: the US, but despite the survey opposition, the US retained

1100
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 6: influence over Cuba with that plat amendment. With independence, many

1101
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 6: Cubans aspired to build a more egalitarian nation. The Cuban

1102
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:15,959
Speaker 6: anarchists continued to struggle even as they were becoming disillusioned

1103
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 6: by the continued prioritization of individual profits of a society,

1104
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 6: wellbon the oppression of labor and the terrible educational systems.

1105
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 6: They had their first truly general strike in nineteen oh two,

1106
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 6: known as the Apprentice Strike, but it was suppressed and failed,

1107
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 6: and with its failure, leading figures in the Lega Heeneral

1108
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:41,320
Speaker 6: de Trebadores like Messonniea and Rivero Yirverro, retired from the

1109
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 6: labour struggle. A year later, in nineteen oh three, anarchists

1110
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 6: organized in the sugar industry, which was met with a

1111
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:52,160
Speaker 6: violent response from the owners, including the murder of two

1112
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 6: prominent anarchist figures, Casanias and Buntero. The year before the

1113
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 6: US recognition of Cuban independence in nineteen oh one, just

1114
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 6: across the pond in Spain, Francisco Ferrer had found that

1115
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 6: his first modern school. Ferrer is an icon in the

1116
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,240
Speaker 6: sphere of anarchist education for his pioneer and efforts as

1117
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 6: anarchists and Cuba condemn in public schools for their condition pedagogy,

1118
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 6: patriotic indoctrination, and lack of critical thinking. They were inspired

1119
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 6: by they alternative education rooted in rationalism and free inquiry

1120
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 6: that was introduced by Ferrer.

1121
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 4: At this point, is there like a decent bit of

1122
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 4: communication between the anarchists in Spain and the anarchists in Cuba,

1123
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 4: because all the stuff you've been mentioning sounds very reminiscent

1124
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:36,560
Speaker 4: of some of like the anarchosympicalist models that would grow

1125
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 4: to more prominence in Spain in the coming decades.

1126
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 6: Oh, yeah, for sure.

1127
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:42,600
Speaker 4: In this field, Yeah, it feels very very similar.

1128
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 6: There was a very large Spanish immigrant community in Cuba

1129
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 6: at the time of Spanish workers, and that would actually

1130
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 6: end up biting the anarchist movement in the but later

1131
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 6: on and you know, you'll see how Okay, Yeah, there

1132
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 6: was a lot of there was a lot of cross

1133
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 6: pollination between the Spanish anarchists and the Cuban anarchists that

1134
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 6: makes sense. In many cases they were both Spanish and Cuba. Sure,

1135
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 6: and so when for Popstar with this school in Barcelona

1136
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,000
Speaker 6: and in other places in Spain. I mean, the Cuban

1137
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 6: Anarchists had already been organized in education before, as their

1138
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 6: program had always sought to raise consciousness and prepare for

1139
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 6: social revolution. But Ferrer offered that extra dose of inspiration.

1140
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:24,960
Speaker 4: You know.

1141
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 6: His modern schools introduced things like free play and individual

1142
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:32,760
Speaker 6: liberty and really inspired the founding of educational experiments across Europe,

1143
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 6: Asia and the Americas. In nineteen oh five, Covino Vilar

1144
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:41,160
Speaker 6: opened for that a co educational primary and secondary school

1145
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:45,160
Speaker 6: in Havana, following Frea's principles of free in Korean individual liberty.

1146
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 6: In nineteen oh six, the CEES School was established in Regular,

1147
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 6: embracing the advanced pedagogical perspective methods of these Spanish Anarchists schools.

1148
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:56,800
Speaker 6: And that very same year, nineteen oh six, the US

1149
01:01:56,960 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 6: intervened in Cuba again. You know, they can't even let

1150
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 6: decade go by of independence before they say, nap were

1151
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 6: stepping in, you know. So of course, in response, strikes

1152
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:10,160
Speaker 6: breakout in Havana, Siego de a Vila and Santiago de

1153
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 6: Cuba anyway, so that's going on, and anarchists are also

1154
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 6: organized and speaking tours. In nineteen oh eight, anarchists formed

1155
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 6: the group at Ucaciondale Porvenir or Education of the Future

1156
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:26,320
Speaker 6: in Regular which sought to established modern schools across the island.

1157
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 6: The LGA Heneral de Trabahadories also got involved in the

1158
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 6: group's efforts. Unfortunately, internal conflicts and financial difficulties undermined the

1159
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 6: initial wave of anarchist schools in this time. Meanwhile, private

1160
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 6: school options, particularly of the religious variety, were proliferated across Cuba. Eventually,

1161
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:49,600
Speaker 6: in nineteen oh nine, Ferrero was arrested and executed by

1162
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 6: Spanish authorities, which actually triggered a protest in Cuba and

1163
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:57,240
Speaker 6: also triggered resistance elsewhere in the world. That would simultaneously

1164
01:02:57,240 --> 01:03:00,200
Speaker 6: seek to advocate his ideas further and of course, was

1165
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,680
Speaker 6: to honor his memory. Turning out went to the nineteen tens.

1166
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 6: It was a very eventful period. Let's just say, you know,

1167
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 6: the Mexican Revolution was a current which inspired Cubas workers

1168
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:16,080
Speaker 6: and peasants. The Mexican Revolution was a current and that

1169
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 6: inspired Cuba's workers and peasants there was actually, just as

1170
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:23,240
Speaker 6: there was cross pollination between Spanish anarchists and Cuban anarchists,

1171
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 6: there was cross pollination between Cuban anarchists and Mexican anarchists,

1172
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 6: you know, anarchists. Ricardo Flores Magon, a Titanic figure in

1173
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:34,440
Speaker 6: Mexican revolution, actually had a stand in a relationship with

1174
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:37,640
Speaker 6: the Cuban paper Tierra, as the paper was critical of

1175
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 6: the Mexican dictator of the time, Portfyrio DS. So while

1176
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 6: the guns of the revolutionary Imiliano Zapata were firing in Mexico,

1177
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:52,240
Speaker 6: tobacco workers, teamsters and bakers were striking in Cuba. In

1178
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 6: nineteen twelve, a congress was formed in Crusius with the

1179
01:03:56,080 --> 01:04:00,800
Speaker 6: aim to create an island wide labor federation. But another

1180
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 6: significant event occurred in nineteen twelve. You see, all this time,

1181
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:10,480
Speaker 6: Afrocubans will play in significant roles in the island's labor movements,

1182
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:13,680
Speaker 6: particularly through strikes such as the eighteen ninety nine Mason

1183
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 6: strike and the sugar workers' struggles. Despite this, they were

1184
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 6: dealing with a lot of political and cultural persecution and

1185
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 6: faced high literacy rates, job discrimination, and disenfranchisement due to

1186
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 6: literacy and property requirements. For voting. Naturally, Afrocubans wanted to

1187
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:35,800
Speaker 6: fight against this, so they formed their own political party,

1188
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:39,960
Speaker 6: the Independent Party of Color or PIC, and the government

1189
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 6: quickly outlawed it, which triggered several violent attacks on PIC

1190
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:50,360
Speaker 6: supporter meetings throughout nineteen twelve. It was essentially a race riot,

1191
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:54,560
Speaker 6: and it killed as many as six thousand Afrocubans and

1192
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:58,160
Speaker 6: resulted in another nine hundred thrown in jail and charged

1193
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:05,040
Speaker 6: with rebellion. This time, the anarchist response was weaker than

1194
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:09,760
Speaker 6: it could have been. Writers like Adrian del Vallier and

1195
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 6: Eugenio Leante presented pressed the importance of education and the

1196
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 6: good upbringing of children to root out the racist attitudes

1197
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:21,960
Speaker 6: that led to the massacre. Writers like Adrian de la

1198
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:27,280
Speaker 6: Vallei and Eugenio Leante pressed the importance of education and

1199
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 6: the importance of a good upbringing of children to root

1200
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:33,600
Speaker 6: out the racial attitudes. The racist attitudes that led to

1201
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:37,360
Speaker 6: the massacre, as those attitudes are still present a mere

1202
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:42,120
Speaker 6: generation after ablition. The anarchists were, as would be consisted

1203
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:45,720
Speaker 6: of the principles critical of the PIC's political approach of

1204
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 6: bourgeois elections, but they did admire Africuman culture and recognize

1205
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 6: their contributions to workers liberation movements, but as far as

1206
01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:58,200
Speaker 6: I can tell, they didn't do much else beyond education

1207
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:02,800
Speaker 6: to combat racist attitudes, likely feeling powerless to prevent the

1208
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 6: violence in nineteen twelve due to their own repression by

1209
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:09,240
Speaker 6: the state. And of course, it isn't a binary of

1210
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:13,720
Speaker 6: Africubans and anarchists, as there were Africubans in the anarchist movement,

1211
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:18,000
Speaker 6: including problem figures like Raphael Sarah who remained active into

1212
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:23,200
Speaker 6: the nineteen forties, the printer Pablo Guira, and Margarito Iglesias,

1213
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:25,960
Speaker 6: who is the black anarchist leader of the Manufacturers Union

1214
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 6: in nineteen twenties. Still, despite this overlap, the anarchists still

1215
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:38,000
Speaker 6: couldn't shake their perception as white and foreigners, which.

1216
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:42,640
Speaker 4: Is still a dynamic at play today with anarchists as

1217
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:48,840
Speaker 4: people free anarchists. Saul is like white teenagers, I guess,

1218
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:52,600
Speaker 4: and will often discount the presence of black anarchists and

1219
01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 4: other anarchists or people of color.

1220
01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:58,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm a bit of at a loss as to

1221
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 6: what I could say, like from this arm chair position,

1222
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:04,000
Speaker 6: that they could have done differently in nineteen twelve. Sure,

1223
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:08,320
Speaker 6: they definitely could have stepped up in tried with what

1224
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:12,040
Speaker 6: to defend those communities and to start with those communities

1225
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:16,240
Speaker 6: and solidarity. But at the same time, I wasn't there

1226
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:21,880
Speaker 6: in nineteen twelve, so I'm not sure how things played out.

1227
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:25,160
Speaker 6: But I do think that while the heart is in

1228
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:28,200
Speaker 6: the right place with education to roots out racist attitudes,

1229
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:31,200
Speaker 6: you know, consciousness raising is one thing which you really

1230
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:34,480
Speaker 6: do have to, you know, put yourself on the line

1231
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:38,120
Speaker 6: when it comes to defending marginalized groups, especially if you're

1232
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:43,600
Speaker 6: coming from opposition of relative privilege, being white, to be

1233
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:49,760
Speaker 6: in Spanish, in you know, recently post colonial Cuba, barely

1234
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:52,160
Speaker 6: even post colonial Cuba, you know.

1235
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:56,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I'm in the same position as you

1236
01:07:56,200 --> 01:08:01,760
Speaker 4: here or even further possessing an inability to try to

1237
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:05,120
Speaker 4: critique from the twenty first century. But do you know

1238
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:08,680
Speaker 4: what I do feel comfortable in calling is this next

1239
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:09,320
Speaker 4: ad break?

1240
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:21,559
Speaker 5: All right, we are back.

1241
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:25,479
Speaker 4: Let's return to our discussion of anarchistsm in Cuba in

1242
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:26,680
Speaker 4: the nineteen tenths.

1243
01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:29,880
Speaker 6: So in nineteen thirteen, as we was speaking of the

1244
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:34,000
Speaker 6: repression of the anarchist movement, the third President of Cuba

1245
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:39,280
Speaker 6: would step up, that is, General Mario Garcia Menocal and

1246
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 6: during his reign, the government would ramp up the repression

1247
01:08:43,320 --> 01:08:47,360
Speaker 6: of the anarchists with the passing of anti anarchist laws

1248
01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:52,959
Speaker 6: and the closure of anarchist organizations. There were crackdowns against

1249
01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:58,280
Speaker 6: the radical activities from nineteen fourteen on and the suspension

1250
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:03,000
Speaker 6: of the Tierra publication and the deportation of many anarchists.

1251
01:09:03,360 --> 01:09:05,599
Speaker 6: Because in spite of the oppression, the anarchists movement began

1252
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 6: to recover by nineteen seventeen with the Centro Oberero or

1253
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:12,800
Speaker 6: Worker's Center being established in Havana lead into resurgence of

1254
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:17,280
Speaker 6: anarchist education and organized activity. Between nineteen eighteen and nineteen

1255
01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:20,720
Speaker 6: nineteen four general strikes a breakout in Havana and the

1256
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:24,080
Speaker 6: US sent a flotilla in response to the disorder. The

1257
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:29,080
Speaker 6: government suspended constitutional guarantees, deported even more anarchists, and closed

1258
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:33,439
Speaker 6: the Centrol Obrero. Around this time, you also had the

1259
01:09:33,479 --> 01:09:36,800
Speaker 6: anaqual Naturists, which I really don't know where to fit

1260
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:38,559
Speaker 6: into all of this, so I'll just put them here

1261
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:40,280
Speaker 6: to give you from the repression.

1262
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:41,640
Speaker 4: Naturists.

1263
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:44,679
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, So let's take this as like a breath

1264
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:47,800
Speaker 6: of fresh air from all of the repression and against anarchists.

1265
01:09:47,840 --> 01:09:50,440
Speaker 6: By the state you had the anquo naturists.

1266
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:53,120
Speaker 4: That's what I haven't heard before. Are these like old

1267
01:09:53,160 --> 01:09:54,400
Speaker 4: timey green anarchists.

1268
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:56,920
Speaker 5: I guess.

1269
01:09:57,640 --> 01:09:59,719
Speaker 6: No, I'll actually be the judge of that. I'll actually

1270
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:00,519
Speaker 6: the that.

1271
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:05,599
Speaker 4: It's like actual naturist philosophy. Yes, ah, oh weird.

1272
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:09,559
Speaker 6: Yes. The naturist movement was developed in Europe and North

1273
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:12,960
Speaker 6: America during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, and

1274
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:17,800
Speaker 6: it focused on alternative personal health and lifestyle practices such

1275
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:24,200
Speaker 6: as adopted vegetarianism, exercise, nudism, and small village life to

1276
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 6: combat the effects of industrial mass society.

1277
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:31,760
Speaker 4: Okay, so there is like little tidbits of like anarchop

1278
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:34,920
Speaker 4: of like what would become anarcho primitivism in here, but

1279
01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:36,920
Speaker 4: it's definitely not like a one to one overlap.

1280
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:42,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, especially not in Cuba. In Cuba, the anarchists

1281
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:46,120
Speaker 6: aimed to shift the naturist movements focused away from primarily

1282
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:51,160
Speaker 6: individual health concerns to an emphasis on social emaspiratory themes.

1283
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:54,040
Speaker 6: So why in nineteen ten you had lectures on nitarismo

1284
01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 6: and although it didn't have the broader emaspiratory dimensions initially,

1285
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:03,760
Speaker 6: later in the decade, the movement would gain its momentum

1286
01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:07,960
Speaker 6: and the Nature's Association would expand to establish branches across

1287
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:10,799
Speaker 6: Cuba and even Tampa, Florida.

1288
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:12,559
Speaker 4: Huh Okay.

1289
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:16,160
Speaker 6: Now, anacin naturism in Cuba wasn't too big on the

1290
01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:21,280
Speaker 6: nudism aspect of the naturism, but they did emphasize the

1291
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:25,439
Speaker 6: vegetarian self sufficiency against the reliance and capitalism and so

1292
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:28,639
Speaker 6: to learn and teach alternative medicine to help people deal

1293
01:11:28,680 --> 01:11:32,120
Speaker 6: with the health problems brought about by factory and field

1294
01:11:32,160 --> 01:11:36,639
Speaker 6: work and toxic living conditions. Okay, I know the anical

1295
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:39,479
Speaker 6: nature has actually lasted well into the nineteen fifties, so

1296
01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:44,840
Speaker 6: good for them. But let's get back into the timeline.

1297
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:49,920
Speaker 6: If you know anything about history, you know what significant

1298
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:54,000
Speaker 6: event takes place in Russia in nineteen seventeen. The Russian

1299
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:58,200
Speaker 6: Revolution would reverberate across the landscape of workers struggles for

1300
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:02,400
Speaker 6: decades to come. In the next episode, we'll see how

1301
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:06,360
Speaker 6: the Bolsheviks rise would shape the anarchist movement in Cuba

1302
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:09,400
Speaker 6: leading up to the Rise of Castro, as well as

1303
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:14,200
Speaker 6: how anarchists have endured since then until then. And it

1304
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:17,840
Speaker 6: could happen here. And this is Andrewism. I'll pout to

1305
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:35,200
Speaker 6: all the people peace, Welcome to could happen here. I'm

1306
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:39,519
Speaker 6: Andrew Sage of futuree Channel Antraism. I'm again joined by Garrison.

1307
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:41,679
Speaker 6: Say hello again, Hello again.

1308
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:45,439
Speaker 4: See see what it did there? Very very good, very original,

1309
01:12:45,439 --> 01:12:47,440
Speaker 4: and very funny, fantastic.

1310
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:51,760
Speaker 6: So last time we were discussing the forgotten history of

1311
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:56,600
Speaker 6: Cuban anarchism, I mean took you by surprise. It's you

1312
01:12:56,640 --> 01:12:59,479
Speaker 6: by surprise, and I think it's taken some of the

1313
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:02,400
Speaker 6: audience by surprise too. You know the fact that from

1314
01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:06,520
Speaker 6: the very first Prunian and Mutualist Society in eighteen fifty seven,

1315
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:10,360
Speaker 6: to the rise of the anarchist organizations, the strike activities

1316
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:14,880
Speaker 6: that the schools, to even the anequ niaturists, all of

1317
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:19,200
Speaker 6: this was going on from the mid nineteenth century all

1318
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:21,760
Speaker 6: the way into the early twentieth century, even in the

1319
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:26,719
Speaker 6: height of repression in the nineteen tenths, and the cycle

1320
01:13:26,720 --> 01:13:28,080
Speaker 6: of US intervention as well.

1321
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:31,120
Speaker 4: I guess what I'm kind of curious about in this

1322
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:36,080
Speaker 4: time period is, like before like the Socialist Revolution, were

1323
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:40,400
Speaker 4: like the anarchists more prominent than some of like the

1324
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:41,440
Speaker 4: actual communists.

1325
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:44,680
Speaker 6: For my research, it does seem so yes.

1326
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:46,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, like that's that's kind of what it sounds like.

1327
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:48,640
Speaker 4: They were kind of the main political block for like

1328
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 4: almost seventy five years.

1329
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:53,760
Speaker 6: Well things things do make it to in.

1330
01:13:55,040 --> 01:13:57,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, like the main the main political block on like

1331
01:13:57,400 --> 01:13:59,640
Speaker 4: like the like the left specifically, I guess, like the

1332
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:01,800
Speaker 4: if you count anarchism as part of the left, which

1333
01:14:01,880 --> 01:14:04,920
Speaker 4: means for the case of simplicity, let's say.

1334
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:11,320
Speaker 6: Sure, I don't, yes, but listenly I wouldn't be caught

1335
01:14:11,320 --> 01:14:14,439
Speaker 6: dead at here and to like French political taxonomy, but.

1336
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:17,719
Speaker 4: Totally me in terms of its relation to like labor,

1337
01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:19,880
Speaker 4: especially especially this time period of like I.

1338
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:22,640
Speaker 6: Know what you mean, I just like being difficult.

1339
01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:25,479
Speaker 4: Sometimes absolutely, I mean yeah that is, I agree with

1340
01:14:25,560 --> 01:14:26,920
Speaker 4: you in a lot of cases. But from a like

1341
01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:29,920
Speaker 4: a historical standpoint, it kind of makes sense when like

1342
01:14:29,960 --> 01:14:32,160
Speaker 4: all these almost all these people are like anarcho communists

1343
01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:37,240
Speaker 4: or anarcho synicalists.

1344
01:14:35,040 --> 01:14:37,760
Speaker 6: Or I mean you did have the anarcineaturists too, and

1345
01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:38,880
Speaker 6: the anarcho naturist.

1346
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:40,960
Speaker 4: There you go, the three genders.

1347
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:43,920
Speaker 6: And I mean t I completely mutualists as well. I mean, honestly,

1348
01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:49,120
Speaker 6: the divide, the stringent divide between the anarchist schools of

1349
01:14:49,160 --> 01:14:52,200
Speaker 6: thought wouldn't really come into play until we get into

1350
01:14:52,200 --> 01:14:55,160
Speaker 6: like the the twentieth century.

1351
01:14:54,320 --> 01:14:56,599
Speaker 4: So which we are entering right now.

1352
01:14:56,680 --> 01:15:00,559
Speaker 6: Yes, which we have vented. So where do we leave off?

1353
01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:03,360
Speaker 6: We left off on the big bang that was the

1354
01:15:03,439 --> 01:15:06,240
Speaker 6: Russian Revolution. Remember I said that things will take her turn.

1355
01:15:06,360 --> 01:15:10,759
Speaker 6: That is the turn the Russian wizard has been killed. Sad. Indeed,

1356
01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:15,160
Speaker 6: I promise to discuss how the death of that Russian

1357
01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:19,400
Speaker 6: wizard would impact Cuba going forward into the nineteen twenties

1358
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:26,120
Speaker 6: and beyond. So there we are akiestamos once again, this

1359
01:15:26,240 --> 01:15:29,920
Speaker 6: infost thanks to the work of Kuen R. Shaffer, Stephen J. Hush,

1360
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:35,120
Speaker 6: Lucien van der Walt, Sam Dolgov and Frank Fernandez. So

1361
01:15:35,280 --> 01:15:38,680
Speaker 6: in nineteen twenty the anarchists formed a Congress to advocate

1362
01:15:38,720 --> 01:15:42,120
Speaker 6: a series of immediate and transitory economic measures to resolve

1363
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:45,080
Speaker 6: the high cost of living brought about by the decrease

1364
01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:48,840
Speaker 6: in sugar prices, because you remember, Cuba's economy was dependent

1365
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:53,439
Speaker 6: on sugar and tobacco and coffee. They also formed the

1366
01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:57,360
Speaker 6: Archist sutter is the confederaci Nacional de Tobajo or a

1367
01:15:57,439 --> 01:16:02,519
Speaker 6: national confederation of workers. Following the Bolshevik victory in Russia.

1368
01:16:03,120 --> 01:16:05,120
Speaker 6: It took a minute for the world to find out

1369
01:16:05,200 --> 01:16:08,040
Speaker 6: what happened to all the anarchists in Russia. I mean,

1370
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:10,960
Speaker 6: it was the nineteen twenties. They didn't have Twitter. But

1371
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:15,920
Speaker 6: in the meantime, the anarchists sent a fraternal salute to

1372
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:20,280
Speaker 6: the brothers who in Russia have established the USSR. Which

1373
01:16:20,320 --> 01:16:20,879
Speaker 6: is interesting.

1374
01:16:20,960 --> 01:16:23,200
Speaker 4: And ye, that is interesting.

1375
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:28,000
Speaker 6: Yes, it's like a whole thing. Come in.

1376
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:30,639
Speaker 4: It's exciting for the time though, right like you're seeing

1377
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:32,640
Speaker 4: like this thing finally happen. You're like, oh, we have

1378
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:34,160
Speaker 4: like we have like a real chance.

1379
01:16:35,320 --> 01:16:36,920
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, but I mean I feel like it's like

1380
01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:38,920
Speaker 6: a two panel meme, you know, it's like the.

1381
01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:44,240
Speaker 5: Victory before the Yeah, very much.

1382
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:51,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I mean they knew that the anarchists. But

1383
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:53,240
Speaker 6: they did know, of course, was the anarchists had a

1384
01:16:53,320 --> 01:16:57,680
Speaker 6: visible and vital role in that revolution. Absolutely reality that

1385
01:16:57,760 --> 01:17:02,120
Speaker 6: has unfortunately forgotten today but very well known back then.

1386
01:17:03,040 --> 01:17:05,479
Speaker 6: So the rise of the Soviets, it seemed as though

1387
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:10,640
Speaker 6: the dream of three generations of struggles against the injustices

1388
01:17:10,680 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 6: of capitalism of the state had reached its conclusion. Again,

1389
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:17,400
Speaker 6: they didn't know what happened to the Anarchists and the Lenin.

1390
01:17:17,479 --> 01:17:20,960
Speaker 6: Yet their attitude of jubilation towards the success of the

1391
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:26,519
Speaker 6: Bolsheviks would of course change very shortly, but the anarchists

1392
01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:30,120
Speaker 6: in Cuba still had some hope in unity, though despite

1393
01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:34,360
Speaker 6: some debate amongst themselves about aligning with the Marxists in

1394
01:17:34,400 --> 01:17:38,920
Speaker 6: Cuba see At the time, the anarchost syndicalist movement was

1395
01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:43,479
Speaker 6: leading the formation of labor organizations and federations with figures

1396
01:17:43,479 --> 01:17:47,519
Speaker 6: like Alfredo Lopez and Antonio Pinichet, and while they were

1397
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:51,560
Speaker 6: largely in favor of cross sectarian alliances and collaboration in

1398
01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:55,960
Speaker 6: the promotion of alternative education projects, and after the Congress

1399
01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:59,920
Speaker 6: of nineteen twenty Cuba's workers pressed their demands with renewed

1400
01:18:00,120 --> 01:18:04,880
Speaker 6: force in solidarity all together, leading to bombings and Havana

1401
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:08,800
Speaker 6: and another general strike on medi Figures like Penichet and

1402
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:12,439
Speaker 6: Salinas were jailed and a bomb was set off in

1403
01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:17,200
Speaker 6: the Teatro Nacional in protest. So Initially condemned to death,

1404
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:21,320
Speaker 6: Penichet and Salinas were eventually pardoned and released at the

1405
01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:24,880
Speaker 6: beginning of nineteen twenty one, with the fall of Garcio

1406
01:18:24,680 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 6: Mencalists government. This is when Fedrozias's moderate government came into power,

1407
01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:34,600
Speaker 6: and this is when the Anarchos Syndicolas Feracion Oprera de

1408
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:39,479
Speaker 6: la Habana or FOH or Workers Cleation of Havana was founded.

1409
01:18:40,439 --> 01:18:44,720
Speaker 6: The Workers Federation of Havana inaugurated its rational School and

1410
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:48,720
Speaker 6: library in nineteen twenty two, aiming to counter public and

1411
01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:53,840
Speaker 6: private education emphasis on religion and patriotism. In nineteen twenty five,

1412
01:18:54,280 --> 01:18:58,320
Speaker 6: the second Congresso Nacional Oprero is celebrated in San Fuegos

1413
01:18:58,720 --> 01:19:02,240
Speaker 6: and the Confederacio Nacabrera the Cuba or National Confederation of

1414
01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:06,960
Speaker 6: Human Workers or SCENOC, is founded by anachosyndicalists in Kama Way.

1415
01:19:08,160 --> 01:19:12,439
Speaker 6: The SCENOC was a big tent organization, so although it

1416
01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:17,160
Speaker 6: was initially led by anachosyndicalists, there were reformists and Marxist

1417
01:19:17,240 --> 01:19:20,160
Speaker 6: elements in there as well, and you'll see the results

1418
01:19:20,240 --> 01:19:24,840
Speaker 6: of big tent organization very soon. Also nineteen twenty five,

1419
01:19:25,320 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 6: the Partido Communista Kubano or PCC was founded in Havana,

1420
01:19:31,720 --> 01:19:34,240
Speaker 6: and in nineteen twenty five there was a strike among

1421
01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:38,000
Speaker 6: railway and sugar workers which would provoke government repression and

1422
01:19:38,080 --> 01:19:42,000
Speaker 6: the nineteen twenty five Gerardo Machado would be elected to

1423
01:19:42,040 --> 01:19:47,000
Speaker 6: the office of presidency. Now pay attention to the PCC

1424
01:19:47,360 --> 01:19:49,439
Speaker 6: because they become relevant again later on.

1425
01:19:49,960 --> 01:19:51,679
Speaker 4: They're going to be a recurring character.

1426
01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:58,880
Speaker 6: Yes. So President Gerardo Machado's administration vowed to suppress worker militancy,

1427
01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:02,920
Speaker 6: lead into an another crackdown on foreigners and radicals, including

1428
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:06,439
Speaker 6: the anarchist schools, and marking another decline of the anarchist

1429
01:20:06,439 --> 01:20:12,120
Speaker 6: movements influence. But despite repression under the Macharo dictatorship, anarchists

1430
01:20:12,200 --> 01:20:16,719
Speaker 6: continued to agitate, with some fleeing into exile and overall

1431
01:20:16,800 --> 01:20:20,519
Speaker 6: refusing to cooperate with the government. They founded militant groups

1432
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:25,640
Speaker 6: such as Espartaco and Losildarios and later the Federation the

1433
01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:30,960
Speaker 6: Federacion de Groupos Anarchistas de Cuba or FGC. They engaged

1434
01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:34,759
Speaker 6: in street fighting against the government and also in several

1435
01:20:34,840 --> 01:20:38,439
Speaker 6: failed assassination attempts against Machado. I don't know what it

1436
01:20:38,479 --> 01:20:41,000
Speaker 6: is with Cuban leaders, but they seem to have trouble

1437
01:20:41,560 --> 01:20:50,960
Speaker 6: getting assassinated. So while the anarchists and I would like

1438
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:54,760
Speaker 6: to give them the benefit of the doubt, presumably some

1439
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:58,920
Speaker 6: Marxists were engaged in such resistance and I say presumably

1440
01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:02,400
Speaker 6: because I didn't they were into focus of my research.

1441
01:21:02,680 --> 01:21:04,559
Speaker 6: But from what I could see was the anarchists who

1442
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:10,760
Speaker 6: were engaged in such resistance. Anyway, that's tangential. The operatives

1443
01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:16,080
Speaker 6: of the Popular Socialist Party or PSP chose to make

1444
01:21:16,240 --> 01:21:19,960
Speaker 6: compromises with the various dictatorial governments in order to be

1445
01:21:20,080 --> 01:21:23,960
Speaker 6: allowed control of the labor unions as well as some

1446
01:21:24,000 --> 01:21:24,800
Speaker 6: other pooks.

1447
01:21:25,320 --> 01:21:28,040
Speaker 4: Well, that doesn't sound like it could result in any problems.

1448
01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:33,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, so lock in here, okay. The PSP would later

1449
01:21:33,400 --> 01:21:38,240
Speaker 6: be absorbed by the organizac Revolution Scenarios in Tigradas, which

1450
01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:42,840
Speaker 6: would later become the Partido Unido de la Revolution Socialista

1451
01:21:42,920 --> 01:21:48,320
Speaker 6: the Cuba, which would later be refounded as the Partido

1452
01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:54,760
Speaker 6: Communista Gubano or PCC the Cuban Anarchists part cubas the

1453
01:21:54,800 --> 01:21:55,880
Speaker 6: Communist part of Cuba.

1454
01:21:56,200 --> 01:21:58,280
Speaker 4: There's like this weird loop happening here.

1455
01:21:58,479 --> 01:22:02,360
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, So the PSP would go on to become

1456
01:22:02,520 --> 01:22:07,120
Speaker 6: part of the PCC, even though when they were initially founded,

1457
01:22:07,160 --> 01:22:10,519
Speaker 6: the PSP and the PCC with separate organizations totally okay,

1458
01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:14,360
Speaker 6: So coming into the nineteen thirty Starting with nineteen thirty,

1459
01:22:14,960 --> 01:22:18,960
Speaker 6: a streetcar strike led to a general strike, backed by

1460
01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:23,680
Speaker 6: almost all of the unions. The strike failed, unfortunately due

1461
01:22:23,720 --> 01:22:26,720
Speaker 6: to a poor planning by the SCENOC, which had come

1462
01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:30,160
Speaker 6: into the hands of the PCC. You see, with the

1463
01:22:30,200 --> 01:22:35,120
Speaker 6: continuous deportation, exile and murder of anarchists by the Machado government,

1464
01:22:35,680 --> 01:22:38,080
Speaker 6: the Marxists and the SCENOC, who had been taken orders

1465
01:22:38,080 --> 01:22:41,360
Speaker 6: from the PCC the whole time, were told, Okay, now

1466
01:22:41,360 --> 01:22:44,719
Speaker 6: it's your chance, take advantage of the situation. The anarchists

1467
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:48,200
Speaker 6: out of the way, let's take over the SCENOC. So

1468
01:22:48,240 --> 01:22:51,839
Speaker 6: in nineteen thirty three, another transportation strike breaks out in Havana,

1469
01:22:51,920 --> 01:22:55,559
Speaker 6: which leads to another general strike and further violence, and

1470
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:58,360
Speaker 6: the PCC used their control over the SCENOC to make

1471
01:22:58,400 --> 01:23:03,479
Speaker 6: a deal with Mature Shado and the general strike, even

1472
01:23:03,520 --> 01:23:06,840
Speaker 6: though they were not the ones that started in the first.

1473
01:23:06,520 --> 01:23:10,200
Speaker 4: Place, making a deal to end a strike that they

1474
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:13,799
Speaker 4: didn't start. Indeed, very very cool stuff.

1475
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:21,519
Speaker 6: Now they called this real politic power move the August Eraror,

1476
01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:26,400
Speaker 6: But to me, that's way too soft considering what they did.

1477
01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:29,320
Speaker 6: You see, it was no mayor whoopsie. You know. The

1478
01:23:29,320 --> 01:23:32,760
Speaker 6: PCC ordered the strike and workers to return to their

1479
01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:36,759
Speaker 6: jobs and they tried to work with Machado's murderous secret

1480
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:38,200
Speaker 6: police to make that happen.

1481
01:23:38,479 --> 01:23:45,640
Speaker 4: No, it's it's just like counterinsurgency.

1482
01:23:47,080 --> 01:23:51,120
Speaker 6: Thankfully, the PCC's attempt to sick my shadows dogs on

1483
01:23:51,160 --> 01:23:55,040
Speaker 6: the strike and workers failed due to the resistance of

1484
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:58,400
Speaker 6: the anarchists of the Havana Federation of Labor and other

1485
01:23:58,720 --> 01:23:59,960
Speaker 6: organized labor forces.

1486
01:24:00,400 --> 01:24:03,800
Speaker 4: It's it's funny how like it's it's not the same

1487
01:24:03,880 --> 01:24:06,320
Speaker 4: things happen now, I guess, but very similar things happen

1488
01:24:06,360 --> 01:24:08,639
Speaker 4: while you have like these like big above ground kind

1489
01:24:08,680 --> 01:24:12,000
Speaker 4: of orgs. They'll try to make concessions with with like

1490
01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:15,160
Speaker 4: whether that's like like police or with like whatever kind

1491
01:24:15,160 --> 01:24:18,400
Speaker 4: of institution that people are like opposing. They'll have these

1492
01:24:18,479 --> 01:24:21,680
Speaker 4: these big, like you know, big groups trying trying to

1493
01:24:21,680 --> 01:24:24,080
Speaker 4: make concessions, and it's always left to the anarchists to

1494
01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:27,439
Speaker 4: be like, no, we actually have to keep fighting. This

1495
01:24:27,479 --> 01:24:30,519
Speaker 4: actually doesn't this sort of this this this sort of

1496
01:24:30,560 --> 01:24:33,360
Speaker 4: like attempts at calling like victory or trying to end

1497
01:24:33,400 --> 01:24:36,600
Speaker 4: things actually is not what you claim it to be,

1498
01:24:36,680 --> 01:24:39,639
Speaker 4: and we have to keep going. And it's is something

1499
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:42,439
Speaker 4: that always falls back on like some of the more

1500
01:24:42,479 --> 01:24:46,080
Speaker 4: anarchist aligned contingents in popular struggles.

1501
01:24:46,240 --> 01:24:48,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I see why the why the old anarchists

1502
01:24:48,720 --> 01:24:52,400
Speaker 6: get a bit jaded and crotchet tea, you know, because yeah,

1503
01:24:52,560 --> 01:24:55,360
Speaker 6: you see these feelings happening again and again, Like why

1504
01:24:55,479 --> 01:24:57,479
Speaker 6: you cheer in, you know, like you have not one

1505
01:24:58,240 --> 01:25:01,519
Speaker 6: you know, this is not a victory. This is the

1506
01:25:01,880 --> 01:25:09,160
Speaker 6: precursor to squad wipe, to like absolute defeat. You know, yeah,

1507
01:25:09,360 --> 01:25:14,800
Speaker 6: game over. But unfortunately some people have to to learn,

1508
01:25:15,080 --> 01:25:19,880
Speaker 6: it seems. Unfortunately, until we speak more prominently of the

1509
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:22,519
Speaker 6: mistakes of the past, more honestly of the mistakes of

1510
01:25:22,520 --> 01:25:25,680
Speaker 6: the past, instead of this sort of whitewashed oh the

1511
01:25:25,720 --> 01:25:30,919
Speaker 6: glorious revolutionary movements of the past. Oh, you know, like wow,

1512
01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:34,120
Speaker 6: so cool. Until we start to like engage honest without

1513
01:25:34,160 --> 01:25:36,400
Speaker 6: history and like the mistakes and whatnot, these kind of

1514
01:25:36,439 --> 01:25:38,720
Speaker 6: things are just going to continue to happen, you know.

1515
01:25:39,640 --> 01:25:42,360
Speaker 6: And that's why I also appreciate, you know, the sort

1516
01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:44,600
Speaker 6: of honesty that anarchists have, where they'll be willing to

1517
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:46,880
Speaker 6: call I mean not not all you know, especially new

1518
01:25:46,920 --> 01:25:50,360
Speaker 6: anarchists tend to be more defensive, but and I appreciate

1519
01:25:50,360 --> 01:25:53,960
Speaker 6: the willness to call out like what the CNT did

1520
01:25:54,520 --> 01:25:56,599
Speaker 6: in Spain that was wrong, or what the Black Arm

1521
01:25:56,640 --> 01:25:57,960
Speaker 6: in Ukraine did that was wrong.

1522
01:25:58,000 --> 01:26:00,280
Speaker 4: You know, we don't have to follow a lot like

1523
01:26:00,280 --> 01:26:01,360
Speaker 4: the party line.

1524
01:26:02,120 --> 01:26:03,719
Speaker 6: Sweeping like you have to defend their honor.

1525
01:26:04,800 --> 01:26:07,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, we don't have to like follow along the

1526
01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:10,280
Speaker 4: party line in the same way that all these other

1527
01:26:10,320 --> 01:26:14,040
Speaker 4: groups seem to do. There is a much more open

1528
01:26:14,120 --> 01:26:17,280
Speaker 4: consideration towards critiquing things that even you feel like you

1529
01:26:17,320 --> 01:26:19,160
Speaker 4: can learn from and you feel like we're like like

1530
01:26:19,200 --> 01:26:22,280
Speaker 4: struggles like struggles worth learning from and struggles worth fighting for.

1531
01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:24,519
Speaker 4: But you don't have this the need to be like

1532
01:26:25,040 --> 01:26:28,639
Speaker 4: you have to defend every single thing that X person

1533
01:26:28,720 --> 01:26:31,960
Speaker 4: did because it's like, I know it, it gets it

1534
01:26:32,320 --> 01:26:37,080
Speaker 4: gets very weird when you have these like nineteen year

1535
01:26:37,120 --> 01:26:43,160
Speaker 4: old communists who are like, no, Stalin's good actually, which

1536
01:26:43,200 --> 01:26:46,840
Speaker 4: is a whole other topic, but but yeah, even in

1537
01:26:46,840 --> 01:26:50,639
Speaker 4: like smaller scale things, just the resistance to having to

1538
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:53,080
Speaker 4: to adhere to the party line on a lot of

1539
01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:55,439
Speaker 4: a lot of these topics when you just don't have

1540
01:26:55,479 --> 01:26:58,080
Speaker 4: a party so it allows you to be way more

1541
01:26:58,080 --> 01:27:01,479
Speaker 4: open in your consideration of what has worked, what hasn't worked.

1542
01:27:01,920 --> 01:27:03,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, free association for the win.

1543
01:27:04,400 --> 01:27:07,680
Speaker 4: I don't have a funny ad pivot based on free association.

1544
01:27:08,080 --> 01:27:11,600
Speaker 4: But here's some ads that you can freely listen to

1545
01:27:11,640 --> 01:27:12,360
Speaker 4: if you desire.

1546
01:27:23,200 --> 01:27:23,920
Speaker 5: All right, we're back.

1547
01:27:24,600 --> 01:27:28,000
Speaker 6: So the very same month that the PCC tried and

1548
01:27:28,080 --> 01:27:30,599
Speaker 6: failed to call off a strike that they never started

1549
01:27:30,600 --> 01:27:34,519
Speaker 6: in the first place, Machado was forced from office by

1550
01:27:34,520 --> 01:27:37,400
Speaker 6: a military coup backed by the US working with several

1551
01:27:37,439 --> 01:27:41,479
Speaker 6: political factions, including the PCC. So the PCC was kind

1552
01:27:41,479 --> 01:27:43,760
Speaker 6: of playing both sides. They were like, yeah, let's let's

1553
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:46,639
Speaker 6: work with Machado, and then that's also like help over

1554
01:27:46,720 --> 01:27:52,800
Speaker 6: through Machado a lot of stings. Huh, very interesting. Yeah,

1555
01:27:53,040 --> 01:27:55,840
Speaker 6: So that coup, along with the nineteen thirty three revolution,

1556
01:27:55,960 --> 01:27:58,439
Speaker 6: it was part of resulting from the opposition of the

1557
01:27:58,520 --> 01:28:01,400
Speaker 6: human people to President MacHall those attempts to keep himself

1558
01:28:01,439 --> 01:28:04,960
Speaker 6: in power with flames further fanned by the widespread misery

1559
01:28:05,080 --> 01:28:08,800
Speaker 6: caused by the economic collapse of nineteen twenty nine. Anarchists were,

1560
01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:12,280
Speaker 6: of course participants in the strikes and the revolutionary actions

1561
01:28:12,360 --> 01:28:16,519
Speaker 6: during this time. Military forces and student activists were also

1562
01:28:16,640 --> 01:28:21,760
Speaker 6: very much involved. So Carlos Manuel de Sispires i Quesada

1563
01:28:21,920 --> 01:28:25,200
Speaker 6: came to lead a provisional government which led to the

1564
01:28:25,200 --> 01:28:27,519
Speaker 6: installation of a new government led by a five man

1565
01:28:27,560 --> 01:28:30,960
Speaker 6: coalition known as the Pentarchy of nineteen twenty three. But

1566
01:28:31,200 --> 01:28:33,680
Speaker 6: after only five days, the Pentarchy gave way to the

1567
01:28:33,680 --> 01:28:37,479
Speaker 6: presidency of Ramon Grau San Martin, whose term became known

1568
01:28:37,520 --> 01:28:42,080
Speaker 6: as the one hundred Days Government for obvious reasons. It

1569
01:28:42,080 --> 01:28:45,639
Speaker 6: really only lasted about one hundred days because it decided

1570
01:28:45,720 --> 01:28:49,040
Speaker 6: to defy the US and remove the Platinum nment from

1571
01:28:49,080 --> 01:28:52,559
Speaker 6: the Cuban constitution, and it also introduced the eight hour

1572
01:28:52,640 --> 01:28:55,920
Speaker 6: workday and tried to intervene in the American owned electrical

1573
01:28:55,960 --> 01:29:00,759
Speaker 6: and telephone utility companies. But before you sell that government

1574
01:29:00,840 --> 01:29:03,360
Speaker 6: as a champion of the work in people, it also

1575
01:29:03,439 --> 01:29:06,920
Speaker 6: contributed to the suppression of the Cuban anarchist movement, which

1576
01:29:07,040 --> 01:29:10,560
Speaker 6: had a significant foreign born labor base, with the introduction

1577
01:29:10,760 --> 01:29:14,160
Speaker 6: of the fifty percent law, which forced owners to reserve

1578
01:29:14,240 --> 01:29:18,240
Speaker 6: at least half their jobs for Cubans. That law prompted

1579
01:29:18,400 --> 01:29:21,120
Speaker 6: many of the Spanish anarchists, remember they were a very

1580
01:29:21,120 --> 01:29:24,400
Speaker 6: prominent part of the anarchist movement in Cuba. That prompted

1581
01:29:24,439 --> 01:29:27,360
Speaker 6: them to return to Spain, where as you may know,

1582
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:30,960
Speaker 6: a civil war would kick off rather soon, so the

1583
01:29:31,040 --> 01:29:33,600
Speaker 6: leader of the revolt against one hundred Days Government was

1584
01:29:33,720 --> 01:29:38,679
Speaker 6: Sergeant Fulgencio Battista, who became the head of the armed

1585
01:29:38,680 --> 01:29:43,040
Speaker 6: Forces and began a long period of influence on Cuban politics.

1586
01:29:44,080 --> 01:29:46,680
Speaker 6: The summer of nineteen thirty three obviously marked the end

1587
01:29:46,680 --> 01:29:51,559
Speaker 6: of the cooperative relationship between Cuban anarchists and communists, you know,

1588
01:29:51,680 --> 01:29:56,160
Speaker 6: because of the whole PCC sicond matalist dogs and the

1589
01:29:56,200 --> 01:29:57,040
Speaker 6: anarchists and all that.

1590
01:29:57,360 --> 01:29:59,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I could see that being non conducive to a

1591
01:29:59,439 --> 01:29:59,880
Speaker 4: working part.

1592
01:30:00,720 --> 01:30:04,160
Speaker 6: It's a toxic, toxic situation, you know. They had. They'll

1593
01:30:04,200 --> 01:30:10,120
Speaker 6: have to copearents they labor movement separately. Anyway, say a

1594
01:30:10,240 --> 01:30:12,439
Speaker 6: violence when you rere up between the two groups. The

1595
01:30:12,720 --> 01:30:17,599
Speaker 6: Federacion de Groupos and Akista's de Cuba or FGEC published

1596
01:30:17,600 --> 01:30:21,400
Speaker 6: a manifesto denouncing the traitor's actions of the PCC in

1597
01:30:21,479 --> 01:30:26,880
Speaker 6: collaboration with Minchado. In nineteen thirty five, the PCC exposed

1598
01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:32,639
Speaker 6: its alignment for all to see see after Bautista basically

1599
01:30:32,680 --> 01:30:36,240
Speaker 6: told the PCC, yeah, don't call a general strike. After

1600
01:30:36,280 --> 01:30:38,720
Speaker 6: the PCs he tried to call a general strike, the

1601
01:30:38,760 --> 01:30:41,160
Speaker 6: PCC was like, Okay, we won't call a general strike,

1602
01:30:41,280 --> 01:30:45,439
Speaker 6: and then the PCC adopted Moscow's popular front line and

1603
01:30:45,520 --> 01:30:49,880
Speaker 6: basically aligned themselves with Batista. And what's interesting is, you see,

1604
01:30:50,360 --> 01:30:55,479
Speaker 6: but what Bosistera desperately needed to secure his legitimacy was

1605
01:30:55,520 --> 01:30:59,439
Speaker 6: an electoral base. Basically, he needed a large group of

1606
01:30:59,479 --> 01:31:02,200
Speaker 6: people to say we back his leadership.

1607
01:31:02,439 --> 01:31:05,880
Speaker 4: Sure, he needed some form of like legitimacy exactly.

1608
01:31:07,280 --> 01:31:12,120
Speaker 6: And so the PCC, in aligning themselves with Batista, they

1609
01:31:12,200 --> 01:31:17,760
Speaker 6: created that electoral base for his growing secretorial ambitions. You see,

1610
01:31:17,800 --> 01:31:20,000
Speaker 6: he started off as a president before he became like

1611
01:31:20,000 --> 01:31:23,879
Speaker 6: a full on dictator. Many such cases, many such cases.

1612
01:31:24,360 --> 01:31:26,639
Speaker 6: And the one of the historians I was telling you about,

1613
01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:32,400
Speaker 6: Fernando Fernandez, he wrote that the PCC actually offered Batista

1614
01:31:32,520 --> 01:31:35,559
Speaker 6: a deal, put in all of the machinery of Cuban

1615
01:31:35,680 --> 01:31:40,360
Speaker 6: and international communism at his service, and it promised to

1616
01:31:40,400 --> 01:31:44,080
Speaker 6: deliver votes in the coming elections, which Batista badly needed.

1617
01:31:44,920 --> 01:31:48,679
Speaker 6: In exchange, the PCC was to be given the recently

1618
01:31:48,840 --> 01:31:54,120
Speaker 6: government created Confederaci Tahadoris to Cuba, the CTC, the Cuban

1619
01:31:54,160 --> 01:31:57,160
Speaker 6: Confederation of Workers, and the CTC was basically meant to

1620
01:31:57,160 --> 01:32:01,559
Speaker 6: be the largest, most centralized Levo organization in Cuba. One

1621
01:32:01,560 --> 01:32:04,160
Speaker 6: they would combine all of the existing factions.

1622
01:32:04,360 --> 01:32:05,840
Speaker 4: Okay that yeah, yeah, yeah.

1623
01:32:06,760 --> 01:32:09,880
Speaker 6: And unlike the previous umbrella organization, which as you may remember,

1624
01:32:10,000 --> 01:32:14,440
Speaker 6: was the SCENOC, the CTC was meant to be ideological.

1625
01:32:14,479 --> 01:32:18,000
Speaker 6: It was meant to marry unionism to the state. It

1626
01:32:18,040 --> 01:32:20,559
Speaker 6: was meant to be under the control of Batista through

1627
01:32:20,600 --> 01:32:23,599
Speaker 6: the PCC from the very beginning. You know, the Seaknocks

1628
01:32:23,600 --> 01:32:25,680
Speaker 6: started off being led by anarchos syndicalists, but it was

1629
01:32:25,760 --> 01:32:27,880
Speaker 6: big ten so it was like, you know, bringing all

1630
01:32:27,880 --> 01:32:31,320
Speaker 6: the ideologies, but no, the CTC is like, yeah, we.

1631
01:32:31,200 --> 01:32:33,240
Speaker 4: Are explicitly stayed aligned.

1632
01:32:33,640 --> 01:32:37,040
Speaker 6: Yeah. Meanwhile, you know, in nineteen thirty six, the Spanish

1633
01:32:37,040 --> 01:32:39,760
Speaker 6: Civil War would erupt, and you know, the Cuban anarchists

1634
01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:43,400
Speaker 6: who when solidarity with the Spanish anarchists, would establish the

1635
01:32:43,520 --> 01:32:48,240
Speaker 6: Solidary Dad Internacional Anti anti Fascista to aid them, and

1636
01:32:48,280 --> 01:32:51,240
Speaker 6: some of them even went to Spain to participate. But

1637
01:32:51,479 --> 01:32:54,280
Speaker 6: by nineteen thirty nine, with the defeat of the Spanish Republic,

1638
01:32:54,640 --> 01:32:57,599
Speaker 6: surviving Cuban anarchists returned to the island.

1639
01:32:59,479 --> 01:33:02,080
Speaker 4: In the nineteen forties, It's interesting because when they returned,

1640
01:33:02,120 --> 01:33:06,639
Speaker 4: they also returned with a lot more like experience as well. Indeed,

1641
01:33:06,960 --> 01:33:09,519
Speaker 4: I wonder if that will lead to anything.

1642
01:33:11,800 --> 01:33:12,360
Speaker 6: We'll see.

1643
01:33:12,600 --> 01:33:13,440
Speaker 12: Curious.

1644
01:33:14,720 --> 01:33:18,120
Speaker 6: So, in the nineteen forties, over one hundred delegates met

1645
01:33:18,240 --> 01:33:23,519
Speaker 6: at the Mortazo ranch to establish the Associacion Libertaria the

1646
01:33:23,600 --> 01:33:29,879
Speaker 6: Cuba or ALC. Since the Stalinist dominated CTC had purged

1647
01:33:29,920 --> 01:33:34,160
Speaker 6: anarchists and other militant labor activists, the ALC was formed

1648
01:33:34,200 --> 01:33:38,240
Speaker 6: to challenge state control and Stalinists influence within the labor movement.

1649
01:33:39,040 --> 01:33:42,120
Speaker 6: The ALC held a congress attended by one hundred and

1650
01:33:42,120 --> 01:33:45,120
Speaker 6: fifty five delegates in nineteen forty eight, and in that

1651
01:33:45,240 --> 01:33:48,559
Speaker 6: congress it discussed the creation of a libertarian society in Cuba,

1652
01:33:48,880 --> 01:33:52,280
Speaker 6: and they established the Solidary Dad Gastronomica, which was a

1653
01:33:52,280 --> 01:33:57,280
Speaker 6: publication meant to serve as their official organ. Carlos Prio

1654
01:33:57,360 --> 01:34:02,080
Speaker 6: Socaras assumed the QAN presidency in nineteen forty eight following

1655
01:34:02,120 --> 01:34:05,920
Speaker 6: the presidency of Ramon Grau San Martin, because he actually

1656
01:34:05,960 --> 01:34:08,519
Speaker 6: got another chance to be president after one hundred day's government,

1657
01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:11,360
Speaker 6: and then you had a few filler presidents after that,

1658
01:34:11,960 --> 01:34:15,920
Speaker 6: and then you had Batista's run as president. But anyway,

1659
01:34:15,960 --> 01:34:19,719
Speaker 6: so Prio becomes president and the anarchists try and fail

1660
01:34:19,840 --> 01:34:23,679
Speaker 6: to create a new labor confederation. The Confederaci in general

1661
01:34:23,760 --> 01:34:27,400
Speaker 6: the Tagories was CGT and it was meant to be

1662
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:32,680
Speaker 6: independent of the CTC. Unfortunately, thanks to reformist elements, the

1663
01:34:32,720 --> 01:34:36,920
Speaker 6: Stalinists and the government, it suffered under an extensive propaganda

1664
01:34:36,960 --> 01:34:40,519
Speaker 6: campaign against the initiative in both the Cuban communications media

1665
01:34:41,000 --> 01:34:45,640
Speaker 6: and then the officially approved unions. But despite everything, the

1666
01:34:45,680 --> 01:34:48,840
Speaker 6: anarchists were enduring on the grassroots level, and they were

1667
01:34:48,840 --> 01:34:54,240
Speaker 6: anarchist militants scattered everywhere and anarchist propagandists in every provincial capital.

1668
01:34:55,680 --> 01:34:59,000
Speaker 6: By the way, it is interesting that the Stalinists would

1669
01:34:59,080 --> 01:35:02,040
Speaker 6: gleefully purge the anarchists to appease their own phase for

1670
01:35:02,120 --> 01:35:06,120
Speaker 6: power earlier in the decade, considering that they themselves would

1671
01:35:06,160 --> 01:35:08,800
Speaker 6: be expelled from their posts in the CTC by the

1672
01:35:08,840 --> 01:35:14,400
Speaker 6: government Under US pressure, PreO declared the PSP illegal, motivating

1673
01:35:14,439 --> 01:35:18,280
Speaker 6: the Stylists to eye themselves yet again with their old body,

1674
01:35:19,080 --> 01:35:24,880
Speaker 6: old pal Fulgencio Batista. In nineteen fifty, the ALC would

1675
01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:28,160
Speaker 6: hold another congress, a meant to reorganize the Cuban union

1676
01:35:28,360 --> 01:35:33,320
Speaker 6: movements against its control by bureaucrats, politicians, cults, and religionists.

1677
01:35:34,360 --> 01:35:37,960
Speaker 6: The Congress repudiated the CTC and dedicated itself to maintain

1678
01:35:38,040 --> 01:35:42,280
Speaker 6: the CGT's struggle in spite of President Prio's repression. In

1679
01:35:42,360 --> 01:35:46,040
Speaker 6: nineteen fifty two, Batista took power in a coup, and

1680
01:35:46,080 --> 01:35:49,240
Speaker 6: the LC joined other revolutionary groups in armed resistance to

1681
01:35:49,240 --> 01:35:54,160
Speaker 6: the dictatorship in the cities and the countryside. Despite facing imprisonment, torture,

1682
01:35:54,200 --> 01:35:59,959
Speaker 6: and kidnapping, they challenged Batista's rule through propaganda, distribution, Klandestine activity,

1683
01:36:00,479 --> 01:36:04,479
Speaker 6: and coordinated sabotage efforts. They even worked with groups like

1684
01:36:04,479 --> 01:36:09,240
Speaker 6: the Directorial Revoluse Scenario, the Federation of University Students, and

1685
01:36:09,360 --> 01:36:13,800
Speaker 6: elements within castorerst Group, the M twenty sixth G the

1686
01:36:13,840 --> 01:36:17,000
Speaker 6: Antony sixth J. By the way, despite taking credit for everything,

1687
01:36:17,640 --> 01:36:20,320
Speaker 6: had little to no involvement in many of the uprisings

1688
01:36:20,360 --> 01:36:23,400
Speaker 6: that took place in this period. They tried at one

1689
01:36:23,479 --> 01:36:26,639
Speaker 6: point to call a general strike, but it was badly

1690
01:36:26,760 --> 01:36:30,760
Speaker 6: organized and uncoordinated with other revolutionary groups, so you know,

1691
01:36:30,760 --> 01:36:34,360
Speaker 6: of course it failed. Meanwhile, the ALC's meeting hole not

1692
01:36:34,400 --> 01:36:38,320
Speaker 6: only distributed information and coordinated sabotage efforts, but even taught

1693
01:36:38,320 --> 01:36:40,920
Speaker 6: some of Castro's fighters how to shoot firearms.

1694
01:36:41,160 --> 01:36:43,880
Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

1695
01:36:44,520 --> 01:36:48,439
Speaker 6: By December thirty first, nineteen fifty eight. Also, it's very

1696
01:36:48,479 --> 01:36:50,639
Speaker 6: sad that they would teach some of Castro's fighters how

1697
01:36:50,680 --> 01:36:54,240
Speaker 6: to shoot firearms, considering you know, the direction those firearms

1698
01:36:54,240 --> 01:36:55,439
Speaker 6: we shoot. It end very soon.

1699
01:36:55,800 --> 01:36:59,160
Speaker 4: Yes, that is tragically ironic.

1700
01:37:01,200 --> 01:37:05,080
Speaker 6: So December their first, nineteen fifty eight, Batista flees Cuba,

1701
01:37:05,240 --> 01:37:07,479
Speaker 6: marking the end of his regime and the beginning of

1702
01:37:07,520 --> 01:37:11,879
Speaker 6: a new era. As Castro's revolutionary government gain power, tensions

1703
01:37:11,920 --> 01:37:15,799
Speaker 6: would rise as he consolidated control and marginalized dissent in voices.

1704
01:37:16,600 --> 01:37:19,559
Speaker 6: Any hope anarchists had for social change following nineteen fifty

1705
01:37:19,640 --> 01:37:23,280
Speaker 6: nine would be crushed by the increase in centralization, bureaucraticization

1706
01:37:23,400 --> 01:37:27,320
Speaker 6: of the government, further purges of anarchists from the CTC, which,

1707
01:37:27,439 --> 01:37:30,840
Speaker 6: by the way, they renamed the CTC R as in

1708
01:37:31,040 --> 01:37:38,439
Speaker 6: CTC Revolutionary, and they also militarized. And they also militarized it.

1709
01:37:38,479 --> 01:37:40,200
Speaker 6: You know, if they forced a bunch of the workers

1710
01:37:40,240 --> 01:37:44,840
Speaker 6: to create militias, and you know, with Castro's public alignment

1711
01:37:44,880 --> 01:37:49,080
Speaker 6: with Marxism Leninism, the suppression the revolutionary tribunals and the

1712
01:37:49,120 --> 01:37:53,759
Speaker 6: exile of anarchists and other dissidents. In January nineteen sixty,

1713
01:37:53,800 --> 01:37:56,680
Speaker 6: the ALC held an assembly and expressed support for the

1714
01:37:56,720 --> 01:38:01,519
Speaker 6: Cuban Revolution while rejecting dictatorship everywhere. By the end of

1715
01:38:01,520 --> 01:38:04,640
Speaker 6: the year, stud published the final issue of their publication,

1716
01:38:04,920 --> 01:38:09,719
Speaker 6: So darry Dad Gatunomica. The LC fell under government pressure,

1717
01:38:11,160 --> 01:38:16,320
Speaker 6: and unlike previous Cuban governments, Castro's regime was extra blood

1718
01:38:16,360 --> 01:38:21,120
Speaker 6: thirsty with the working class and peasant dissenters. That same year,

1719
01:38:21,720 --> 01:38:25,600
Speaker 6: the Grupo the Sindecalistas Libertarios is suited document criticizing the

1720
01:38:25,600 --> 01:38:30,800
Speaker 6: Cuban government's direction. Fearing the increase in totalitarianism, they had

1721
01:38:30,800 --> 01:38:35,040
Speaker 6: to change their name to avoid reprisals. As a pecc's organ,

1722
01:38:35,280 --> 01:38:39,920
Speaker 6: OI responded to the group O the Snekalistas Libertarios document

1723
01:38:40,040 --> 01:38:45,000
Speaker 6: with insults and accusations. That same year, the movie Miento

1724
01:38:45,400 --> 01:38:49,639
Speaker 6: Deaccion Syndical began circulating a bulletin critical of the PCC

1725
01:38:49,880 --> 01:38:54,759
Speaker 6: and Castro. They too would be suppressed. After the failed

1726
01:38:54,840 --> 01:38:58,519
Speaker 6: Bay of Pigs invasion in nineteen sixty one, Castro's government

1727
01:38:58,640 --> 01:39:03,679
Speaker 6: intensified its suppression of opposition, including anarchists. The anarchist movement

1728
01:39:03,760 --> 01:39:08,600
Speaker 6: also bore a terrible betrayal as Manuel Guiona Susa, a

1729
01:39:08,800 --> 01:39:13,080
Speaker 6: prominent anarchist, betrayed his comrades by endorsing the cashier regime

1730
01:39:13,400 --> 01:39:16,720
Speaker 6: and denouncing the anarchists who opposed it. Some anarists would

1731
01:39:16,760 --> 01:39:20,080
Speaker 6: end up in prison somewhat fled to Florida, where they

1732
01:39:20,120 --> 01:39:22,800
Speaker 6: would unfortunately be grouped to the Batista supporters who would

1733
01:39:22,800 --> 01:39:26,560
Speaker 6: also fled to Florida at that time, and an international

1734
01:39:26,600 --> 01:39:31,080
Speaker 6: solidarity effort emerged with donations from various anarchist groups worldwide

1735
01:39:31,360 --> 01:39:44,719
Speaker 6: to aid the Cuban anarchists escape. The anarchists that fled

1736
01:39:44,720 --> 01:39:49,439
Speaker 6: to Cure formed the Movimiento Libertario Cubano in Exilio the

1737
01:39:49,560 --> 01:39:53,880
Speaker 6: mcl or Cuban anarchist movement in exile, and continued to

1738
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:58,840
Speaker 6: advocate for anarchist principles to publications like Guangara Libertaria. The

1739
01:39:58,880 --> 01:40:02,800
Speaker 6: New York based Libertarian League, led by figures like Sam Dogoff,

1740
01:40:03,200 --> 01:40:07,559
Speaker 6: provided critical support to these exiles. But what really sucks

1741
01:40:08,680 --> 01:40:11,400
Speaker 6: the Cuban anarchists had to struggle to garner support from

1742
01:40:11,439 --> 01:40:14,360
Speaker 6: their fellow anarchists around the world. Thanks to the propaganda

1743
01:40:14,360 --> 01:40:18,360
Speaker 6: efforts to the Castro regime. The Cuman anarchists was made

1744
01:40:18,960 --> 01:40:23,400
Speaker 6: as CIA agents, which is umi recoll still a favorite

1745
01:40:23,439 --> 01:40:25,960
Speaker 6: tactic of campus authoritarians.

1746
01:40:25,960 --> 01:40:29,639
Speaker 4: Interesting and yeah, interesting to see how it's literally the same.

1747
01:40:30,640 --> 01:40:30,960
Speaker 11: Yeah.

1748
01:40:31,320 --> 01:40:34,400
Speaker 6: In fact, one anarchist group in South America, the Federacion

1749
01:40:34,439 --> 01:40:40,240
Speaker 6: Anarchista Uruguaya, even split between pro and anti Castro factions.

1750
01:40:41,360 --> 01:40:44,799
Speaker 6: The procast Room majority went on to join the Marxist

1751
01:40:44,840 --> 01:40:52,400
Speaker 6: Lendinis Supermaros in Yuguay. Eventually the Federrazion Anachika Italiana. The

1752
01:40:52,479 --> 01:40:58,639
Speaker 6: FAIT organized a conference in Bologna in nineteen sixty five

1753
01:40:58,840 --> 01:41:02,280
Speaker 6: to address the confusion among anarchists globally regarded in Cuba.

1754
01:41:03,320 --> 01:41:07,160
Speaker 6: They came out of that conference condemning casteurism and express

1755
01:41:07,160 --> 01:41:10,080
Speaker 6: in support for Cuban anarchists. But despite the efforts of

1756
01:41:10,120 --> 01:41:14,000
Speaker 6: Abelardo I Glasias to present the Cuban anarchists viewpoint, many

1757
01:41:14,040 --> 01:41:16,960
Speaker 6: anarchist groups in Europe and Latin Americas still aligned with

1758
01:41:17,040 --> 01:41:21,040
Speaker 6: casteurism view and criticism of the regime as opposition to

1759
01:41:21,080 --> 01:41:24,800
Speaker 6: the broader socialist revolution. But despite the skepticism of their

1760
01:41:24,840 --> 01:41:27,840
Speaker 6: payers and the refusal of some anarchist publications to even

1761
01:41:27,960 --> 01:41:32,040
Speaker 6: hear them out. The Cuban anarchists continued the activism in exile.

1762
01:41:32,520 --> 01:41:35,240
Speaker 6: They published works to denounce in the Castier regime and

1763
01:41:35,320 --> 01:41:38,240
Speaker 6: sought to clarify their position within the global anarchist movement.

1764
01:41:39,080 --> 01:41:42,840
Speaker 6: Back in Cuba, the remaining anarchists dwindled in size, as

1765
01:41:42,920 --> 01:41:48,000
Speaker 6: most had either left or rotten in prison. In the

1766
01:41:48,040 --> 01:41:52,400
Speaker 6: seventies and beyond, the Cuban anarchists faced isolation and defamation.

1767
01:41:53,360 --> 01:41:56,320
Speaker 6: They still accused this day of being in service of reaction.

1768
01:41:57,200 --> 01:42:00,400
Speaker 6: It's only with Sam Dolkov's book The Cuban Revolution Critical

1769
01:42:00,400 --> 01:42:03,879
Speaker 6: Perspective in nineteen seventy six that attitudes began to shift

1770
01:42:04,200 --> 01:42:07,559
Speaker 6: reade into a gradual reassessment of the MLCE within the

1771
01:42:07,560 --> 01:42:12,200
Speaker 6: anarchist community. In nineteen seventy nine, the MLSE renewed ties

1772
01:42:12,240 --> 01:42:18,000
Speaker 6: with the Anarchist Confederacio National Debajo, SASH Association International Rosador

1773
01:42:18,240 --> 01:42:23,280
Speaker 6: the CNTIT during to congress in Madrid. Subsequent publications and

1774
01:42:23,400 --> 01:42:28,200
Speaker 6: articles further clarified the mlce's position and cashtroism, marking the

1775
01:42:28,360 --> 01:42:34,720
Speaker 6: end of a long and damaging chapter of derision against them.

1776
01:42:35,040 --> 01:42:39,240
Speaker 6: In nineteen eighty, Guangara Libertaria emerged as a new platform

1777
01:42:39,280 --> 01:42:43,360
Speaker 6: for Cuban anarchists in exile. Initially cautious in its advocacy

1778
01:42:44,160 --> 01:42:48,440
Speaker 6: due to the hostile political climate in Miami, Guangara gradually

1779
01:42:48,439 --> 01:42:52,719
Speaker 6: became more explicitly anarchist and critical of both Castros regime

1780
01:42:53,160 --> 01:42:57,120
Speaker 6: and the reactionary exile community. It played a significant role

1781
01:42:57,160 --> 01:43:02,680
Speaker 6: in challenging Procastro narratives and fostering international solidarity among anarchists.

1782
01:43:03,600 --> 01:43:07,000
Speaker 6: As of recently as in the twenty first century, the

1783
01:43:07,080 --> 01:43:12,240
Speaker 6: Taire Libertario Alfreedro Lopez or Alfero Lopez Libertarian Workshop has

1784
01:43:12,240 --> 01:43:15,560
Speaker 6: published a few pieces on anarchism in the Cuban context.

1785
01:43:16,160 --> 01:43:18,400
Speaker 6: They even took part in the creation of the Central

1786
01:43:18,439 --> 01:43:22,880
Speaker 6: American and Caribbean Anarchist Federation, And before anyone asks, I

1787
01:43:22,880 --> 01:43:25,000
Speaker 6: haven't found a way to get in contact with them yet.

1788
01:43:25,320 --> 01:43:28,840
Speaker 6: The recent decentralized protests in Cuba sparked a deluge of

1789
01:43:28,920 --> 01:43:32,960
Speaker 6: conflicting narratives from various sources. We're on one side, Cuban

1790
01:43:32,960 --> 01:43:36,920
Speaker 6: authorities and leftist supporters defended the regime, blaming the economic

1791
01:43:36,920 --> 01:43:39,920
Speaker 6: crisis and health challenges on the US blockade, while treating

1792
01:43:39,920 --> 01:43:43,559
Speaker 6: Cuban critics with one broad reactionary brush. On the other, hand,

1793
01:43:43,640 --> 01:43:45,800
Speaker 6: we had the right wing media criticizing the lack of

1794
01:43:45,840 --> 01:43:50,880
Speaker 6: freedoms under the communist government. While amidst this, anarchists sought

1795
01:43:50,920 --> 01:43:55,200
Speaker 6: a deeper understanding, seeking neither alignment with the US nor

1796
01:43:55,240 --> 01:43:58,400
Speaker 6: the Cuban government, but seeking understanding of the needs of

1797
01:43:58,400 --> 01:44:01,480
Speaker 6: the people frustrated by the poser pandemic and the failures

1798
01:44:01,520 --> 01:44:05,240
Speaker 6: of the government. The condition that Cuba is in now

1799
01:44:05,520 --> 01:44:08,480
Speaker 6: obviously is due to the impact of the US's blockade,

1800
01:44:08,800 --> 01:44:12,519
Speaker 6: which should be lifted immediately, but it shouldn't be missed

1801
01:44:12,520 --> 01:44:15,840
Speaker 6: that the government uses the blockade to divert attention from

1802
01:44:15,840 --> 01:44:21,799
Speaker 6: other matters where it does deserve significant critique. Emergency measures

1803
01:44:21,840 --> 01:44:26,000
Speaker 6: were eventually implemented appease the protesters, but it remains to

1804
01:44:26,000 --> 01:44:28,040
Speaker 6: be seen what the outcome of that frustration of the

1805
01:44:28,040 --> 01:44:32,160
Speaker 6: people will be in the long term. As Francisco Finandez

1806
01:44:32,200 --> 01:44:35,920
Speaker 6: wrote in Cuban Anarchism, The History of a Movement, hopefully

1807
01:44:36,240 --> 01:44:38,280
Speaker 6: there are those in this generation who will take up

1808
01:44:38,280 --> 01:44:40,960
Speaker 6: the legacy of their forebearers so that the roots of

1809
01:44:40,960 --> 01:44:43,920
Speaker 6: anarchism that are now buried in the fertile Cuban soil

1810
01:44:44,240 --> 01:44:48,040
Speaker 6: will once again spring to life. Anyway, this has been

1811
01:44:48,200 --> 01:44:52,080
Speaker 6: the forgotten history of anarchism in Cuba. This has been

1812
01:44:52,400 --> 01:44:55,240
Speaker 6: it could happen here, and this has been Andrew's age.

1813
01:44:55,800 --> 01:44:58,240
Speaker 6: All power to all the people. Peace.

1814
01:45:12,479 --> 01:45:14,920
Speaker 5: Welcome to it could happen here. A podcast where my

1815
01:45:14,960 --> 01:45:17,719
Speaker 5: old bookstore from college is unionized and I'm very excited

1816
01:45:17,760 --> 01:45:21,360
Speaker 5: about it. I'm your host, Bio Wong, and with me

1817
01:45:21,439 --> 01:45:24,920
Speaker 5: to talk about this this tremendous event are Caleb Theo

1818
01:45:25,040 --> 01:45:28,599
Speaker 5: and Finn from the Seminary co Op Booksellers Union. Yeah,

1819
01:45:28,680 --> 01:45:29,479
Speaker 5: welcome to the show.

1820
01:45:30,760 --> 01:45:32,960
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank so much for having us. This is

1821
01:45:33,000 --> 01:45:34,000
Speaker 1: so excited you.

1822
01:45:35,360 --> 01:45:38,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm excited to you both because I think somehow

1823
01:45:38,720 --> 01:45:41,479
Speaker 5: in the molt that I got almost three years I've

1824
01:45:41,479 --> 01:45:44,880
Speaker 5: been doing this show now, Jesus Christ, that is terrifying. Somehow,

1825
01:45:45,080 --> 01:45:47,680
Speaker 5: I think this is the first bookstore union we've talked to,

1826
01:45:48,360 --> 01:45:51,360
Speaker 5: which is remarkable. I don't know how it's taken this long,

1827
01:45:51,439 --> 01:45:53,879
Speaker 5: but I'm so excited that y'all that y'all the first.

1828
01:45:55,360 --> 01:45:57,120
Speaker 13: I mean, as far as we know, we're the first

1829
01:45:57,120 --> 01:45:58,280
Speaker 13: in the city of Chicago.

1830
01:45:58,960 --> 01:46:00,080
Speaker 5: Hell yeah, we're.

1831
01:46:00,160 --> 01:46:03,560
Speaker 12: The only in the city. There are like past bookstores

1832
01:46:03,560 --> 01:46:07,800
Speaker 12: that have since closed which were unionized. But yeah, as

1833
01:46:07,800 --> 01:46:10,519
Speaker 12: best we know we're now we're currently the only union

1834
01:46:10,520 --> 01:46:13,240
Speaker 12: bookstore in the city of Chicago, proper.

1835
01:46:15,560 --> 01:46:18,000
Speaker 5: God, maybe there's one up in Evanston or something, but

1836
01:46:18,880 --> 01:46:22,040
Speaker 5: seems unlikely. This is, this is I don't know. I've been,

1837
01:46:22,080 --> 01:46:24,479
Speaker 5: I've been. I've been drilling. I've been drilling the Evanston

1838
01:46:24,600 --> 01:46:27,640
Speaker 5: knowledge into my listeners' heads. Now, so now all of

1839
01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:30,439
Speaker 5: you people in Rhode Island or whatever know about my

1840
01:46:30,560 --> 01:46:31,680
Speaker 5: hatred of Evanston.

1841
01:46:34,560 --> 01:46:38,040
Speaker 12: An extremely fair grudge.

1842
01:46:39,600 --> 01:46:43,519
Speaker 5: Okay, So speaking of grudges, all right, sobody, co op

1843
01:46:43,680 --> 01:46:46,559
Speaker 5: is it's it's it's an interesting bookstore in the sense

1844
01:46:46,560 --> 01:46:48,720
Speaker 5: that like it's it's it is on the campus of

1845
01:46:48,720 --> 01:46:51,439
Speaker 5: the University of Chicago, like it's just it's just sort

1846
01:46:51,479 --> 01:46:54,559
Speaker 5: of there. And there's been a lot of things happening

1847
01:46:55,840 --> 01:47:01,559
Speaker 5: on that campus in the past month or so. But yeah,

1848
01:47:01,680 --> 01:47:03,519
Speaker 5: I guess what I wanted to I guess the place

1849
01:47:03,560 --> 01:47:06,360
Speaker 5: I wanted to start was sort of Okay, so you,

1850
01:47:06,479 --> 01:47:09,240
Speaker 5: Chicago is a campus that has a lot of union

1851
01:47:09,320 --> 01:47:13,160
Speaker 5: organizing happening on it in a bunch of across a

1852
01:47:13,200 --> 01:47:17,280
Speaker 5: bunch of different kind of they're mostly university unions, but

1853
01:47:17,320 --> 01:47:19,120
Speaker 5: a lot of different all different kinds of workers and

1854
01:47:19,120 --> 01:47:22,000
Speaker 5: the university have unions. How did that sort of impact

1855
01:47:22,320 --> 01:47:23,880
Speaker 5: the way this campaign started.

1856
01:47:24,560 --> 01:47:29,880
Speaker 11: That's a really good question. I I feel like there's

1857
01:47:29,880 --> 01:47:31,679
Speaker 11: a few things I want to talk about. I think

1858
01:47:31,760 --> 01:47:38,640
Speaker 11: there's the the fact that a lot of us booksellers

1859
01:47:39,360 --> 01:47:42,120
Speaker 11: who come to the sem co op were coming from

1860
01:47:42,160 --> 01:47:46,400
Speaker 11: Many of us came from New Chicago or had been

1861
01:47:46,439 --> 01:47:48,439
Speaker 11: there at some point and had been around that kind

1862
01:47:48,479 --> 01:47:52,439
Speaker 11: of organizing. So I think that that definitely has an impact.

1863
01:47:53,720 --> 01:47:57,000
Speaker 11: I also think that many of us know people because

1864
01:47:57,080 --> 01:47:59,160
Speaker 11: so many of us are in the community. We all

1865
01:47:59,320 --> 01:48:02,680
Speaker 11: know a lot of people who are organizers, a lot

1866
01:48:02,680 --> 01:48:07,840
Speaker 11: of people in the grad student union, and having them

1867
01:48:07,880 --> 01:48:12,240
Speaker 11: to talk to and kind of like bounce ideas off

1868
01:48:12,280 --> 01:48:18,120
Speaker 11: of and commiserate all of that has been really great.

1869
01:48:20,320 --> 01:48:23,200
Speaker 12: Yeah, And like I think it's been very emboldening to

1870
01:48:23,320 --> 01:48:27,679
Speaker 12: know that we have that support, you know that because

1871
01:48:27,800 --> 01:48:32,920
Speaker 12: we have friends and comrades and roommates in GSU, in

1872
01:48:33,120 --> 01:48:36,160
Speaker 12: faculty unions, you know, the kind of the whole time,

1873
01:48:36,200 --> 01:48:39,599
Speaker 12: we've known that, like if we ever need to draw

1874
01:48:39,640 --> 01:48:43,080
Speaker 12: on that external support for any kind of you know,

1875
01:48:43,160 --> 01:48:47,840
Speaker 12: public campaign, that we have like a connection to like

1876
01:48:47,840 --> 01:48:51,519
Speaker 12: a broader labor of movement in the area that'll be

1877
01:48:51,560 --> 01:48:52,400
Speaker 12: there for us.

1878
01:48:52,720 --> 01:48:54,559
Speaker 5: This is something I guess you've already touched on a bit,

1879
01:48:54,600 --> 01:48:56,960
Speaker 5: but I think this leads into another question that I had,

1880
01:48:56,960 --> 01:48:59,840
Speaker 5: which was, Yeah, I wanted to talk about the sort

1881
01:48:59,840 --> 01:49:03,920
Speaker 5: of the influence of campus and how how how the

1882
01:49:04,000 --> 01:49:06,200
Speaker 5: dynamics of that kind of change, what these what these

1883
01:49:06,200 --> 01:49:07,000
Speaker 5: campaigns look like.

1884
01:49:09,200 --> 01:49:14,240
Speaker 13: It's really interesting because our relationship to campus is a

1885
01:49:14,280 --> 01:49:17,800
Speaker 13: little bit unclear to us in terms of the way

1886
01:49:17,800 --> 01:49:21,920
Speaker 13: that the bookstore functions in relation to its university partners,

1887
01:49:21,960 --> 01:49:24,400
Speaker 13: because we work with them very closely. There are landlord

1888
01:49:24,479 --> 01:49:29,320
Speaker 13: among many other things, but we are not directly affiliated

1889
01:49:29,360 --> 01:49:32,519
Speaker 13: with them, and we carry course books, but that's by

1890
01:49:32,600 --> 01:49:35,439
Speaker 13: professor request and we can't always do it, and so

1891
01:49:36,760 --> 01:49:41,880
Speaker 13: it's a really close, really opaque relationship.

1892
01:49:45,120 --> 01:49:46,960
Speaker 1: I think the university.

1893
01:49:47,960 --> 01:49:52,440
Speaker 11: Really likes to have a bookstore that isn't like university

1894
01:49:52,600 --> 01:49:56,639
Speaker 11: affiliated on paper, but still very much is a part

1895
01:49:56,680 --> 01:50:00,639
Speaker 11: of the culture of the university, and so we see

1896
01:50:00,680 --> 01:50:03,880
Speaker 11: a lot of that kind of inform things like our

1897
01:50:04,040 --> 01:50:08,519
Speaker 11: stock and the events that the UH professors that we

1898
01:50:08,640 --> 01:50:11,880
Speaker 11: work with, and of course like the students who come

1899
01:50:11,880 --> 01:50:14,840
Speaker 11: in and use the space and are physically in the

1900
01:50:14,840 --> 01:50:18,480
Speaker 11: space every day doing work buying their books.

1901
01:50:19,120 --> 01:50:22,800
Speaker 5: It's it's always weird kind of doing organizing in these

1902
01:50:22,840 --> 01:50:25,599
Speaker 5: spaces because like I don't know, you you're you're dealing

1903
01:50:25,680 --> 01:50:28,519
Speaker 5: with this mixture. Well U Chicago especially is like this

1904
01:50:28,560 --> 01:50:33,519
Speaker 5: where there's it's this really kind of weird and volatile

1905
01:50:33,600 --> 01:50:38,080
Speaker 5: mixture of like a bunch of on the one hand,

1906
01:50:38,120 --> 01:50:40,400
Speaker 5: like a bunch of very brave, very committed like people

1907
01:50:40,400 --> 01:50:42,120
Speaker 5: who are doing organizing, a bunch of people who were

1908
01:50:42,120 --> 01:50:44,479
Speaker 5: just completely checked out, and then a bunch of people

1909
01:50:44,479 --> 01:50:46,559
Speaker 5: who are going to go lead cups in South America.

1910
01:50:47,240 --> 01:50:53,800
Speaker 5: And I don't know, it's it's it's a that was

1911
01:50:53,840 --> 01:50:56,600
Speaker 5: my experience back doing Actually god I was, I was

1912
01:50:56,640 --> 01:50:59,040
Speaker 5: on the GS. You pick it line, like, how God

1913
01:50:59,240 --> 01:51:01,200
Speaker 5: that was? That was half decade ago. Jesus Christ. Sorry,

1914
01:51:01,240 --> 01:51:04,040
Speaker 5: this is trying to geto the MIA thinks about our

1915
01:51:04,040 --> 01:51:06,000
Speaker 5: time that you should which it shouldn't.

1916
01:51:08,320 --> 01:51:08,559
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1917
01:51:08,600 --> 01:51:13,439
Speaker 13: But that's something that is notable too, is that, like

1918
01:51:14,360 --> 01:51:18,000
Speaker 13: we have a lot of community support when it comes

1919
01:51:18,040 --> 01:51:22,080
Speaker 13: to people who are theoretically in favor of unionizing and

1920
01:51:22,120 --> 01:51:27,040
Speaker 13: theoretically in favor of labor power, and that extends all

1921
01:51:27,040 --> 01:51:30,519
Speaker 13: the way through our management team, Like they are very

1922
01:51:30,680 --> 01:51:35,200
Speaker 13: very in favor of the concept of labor rights, and

1923
01:51:35,360 --> 01:51:39,479
Speaker 13: so it's really interesting trying to parse that dynamics sometimes

1924
01:51:39,520 --> 01:51:42,240
Speaker 13: of like, Okay, these are people who are supposedly our

1925
01:51:42,640 --> 01:51:45,320
Speaker 13: biggest supporters, but at the same time their actions do

1926
01:51:45,400 --> 01:51:48,800
Speaker 13: not very well line up with those ideals.

1927
01:51:49,560 --> 01:51:52,519
Speaker 11: I think having a section at our store that is

1928
01:51:52,560 --> 01:51:57,120
Speaker 11: devoted to critical theory and Marxism while not paying us

1929
01:51:57,120 --> 01:52:01,040
Speaker 11: a living wage is a real funny situation.

1930
01:52:01,880 --> 01:52:03,519
Speaker 14: The irony stings real hard.

1931
01:52:04,640 --> 01:52:07,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's this real Read the theory, do not act

1932
01:52:07,280 --> 01:52:08,879
Speaker 5: on it, but read the theory.

1933
01:52:10,240 --> 01:52:14,040
Speaker 12: It's been real fun. Like we during like your course

1934
01:52:14,040 --> 01:52:16,160
Speaker 12: book rush seasons, we have like sem co op trading

1935
01:52:16,160 --> 01:52:19,720
Speaker 12: cards with pictures of like different authors. It's always really

1936
01:52:19,800 --> 01:52:22,040
Speaker 12: fun handing out the ones that are like Carl Marx

1937
01:52:22,120 --> 01:52:24,280
Speaker 12: sem co ops number one best selling author.

1938
01:52:28,520 --> 01:52:32,639
Speaker 13: And no, it's definitely not because every freshman at University

1939
01:52:32,680 --> 01:52:34,679
Speaker 13: of Chicago has to buy him from us.

1940
01:52:36,000 --> 01:52:39,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's that's another that's like kind of unrelated, really

1941
01:52:39,200 --> 01:52:42,479
Speaker 5: funny thing. But yeah, like all of the Chicago econ

1942
01:52:42,520 --> 01:52:46,439
Speaker 5: dipshits at least nominally red marks. Did they open it

1943
01:52:48,439 --> 01:52:51,639
Speaker 5: low odds? But yeah, I don't know that that seems

1944
01:52:51,640 --> 01:52:56,960
Speaker 5: like a psychologically destabilizing contradiction that you're dealing with them all

1945
01:52:57,000 --> 01:52:57,680
Speaker 5: the time.

1946
01:52:58,840 --> 01:53:03,440
Speaker 12: That same kind of like contradiction between like spirit and practice.

1947
01:53:03,880 --> 01:53:06,160
Speaker 12: Just like it's also right there in our name where

1948
01:53:06,200 --> 01:53:08,719
Speaker 12: we're the Seminary co Op bookstore, and like two thirds

1949
01:53:08,760 --> 01:53:11,680
Speaker 12: of that is not true. We haven't been affiliated with

1950
01:53:11,720 --> 01:53:15,720
Speaker 12: the seminary in decades. We were for a time a

1951
01:53:15,880 --> 01:53:18,280
Speaker 12: member co op like RII, but we've never been a

1952
01:53:18,280 --> 01:53:20,360
Speaker 12: worker's co op. We haven't even been a member co

1953
01:53:20,400 --> 01:53:24,320
Speaker 12: op since twenty fourteen. We are a bookstore, So there's

1954
01:53:24,400 --> 01:53:25,240
Speaker 12: like that.

1955
01:53:25,280 --> 01:53:28,799
Speaker 5: But the old one in three eight bad being simply

1956
01:53:28,840 --> 01:53:33,160
Speaker 5: does not apply here. That is in fact very bad well.

1957
01:53:33,320 --> 01:53:35,799
Speaker 11: And I think that that is like a very big

1958
01:53:35,840 --> 01:53:39,840
Speaker 11: part of how the larger community sees our stores as well,

1959
01:53:39,880 --> 01:53:43,120
Speaker 11: and the like mismatch there because yeah, of course we're

1960
01:53:43,160 --> 01:53:47,799
Speaker 11: like on the Chicago campus. We are very much connected

1961
01:53:47,840 --> 01:53:50,120
Speaker 11: to the student body and the faculty there, but we're

1962
01:53:50,120 --> 01:53:53,960
Speaker 11: also like in the middle of like our neighborhood where

1963
01:53:54,000 --> 01:53:56,240
Speaker 11: there are plenty of other people who are not affiliated

1964
01:53:56,240 --> 01:53:59,120
Speaker 11: with the college who are like coming in buying their books.

1965
01:53:59,200 --> 01:54:03,040
Speaker 11: There's the fact that like our our second location down

1966
01:54:03,120 --> 01:54:06,080
Speaker 11: the street fifty seventh Street Books, which has like our

1967
01:54:06,240 --> 01:54:10,719
Speaker 11: kids sections and like a bunch of other less academic

1968
01:54:10,760 --> 01:54:16,760
Speaker 11: stuff like that's very heavily trafficked as well. And the

1969
01:54:16,840 --> 01:54:23,840
Speaker 11: communities understanding of us as a like worker owned not

1970
01:54:23,840 --> 01:54:27,360
Speaker 11: not for profit, which is a very confusing term because

1971
01:54:27,360 --> 01:54:30,679
Speaker 11: it's not a nonprofit, it's a not for profit. That

1972
01:54:30,680 --> 01:54:35,960
Speaker 11: that disconnect between what the community needs and wants in

1973
01:54:36,120 --> 01:54:42,720
Speaker 11: its bookstores and what the management has decided our bookstores

1974
01:54:43,320 --> 01:54:45,800
Speaker 11: mean to the community is it's felt.

1975
01:54:46,280 --> 01:54:48,560
Speaker 1: That's like a very felt mismatch.

1976
01:54:50,360 --> 01:54:53,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I'm assuming that that that's sort of the

1977
01:54:53,280 --> 01:54:56,200
Speaker 5: kinds of things that I mean, obviously the standard not

1978
01:54:56,200 --> 01:54:58,160
Speaker 5: getting paid off, et cetera, et cetera. Are those those

1979
01:54:58,200 --> 01:55:00,839
Speaker 5: are sort of things that led into how the organizing started.

1980
01:55:02,240 --> 01:55:05,520
Speaker 13: Yeah, I think it's a lot the way that like

1981
01:55:05,600 --> 01:55:08,320
Speaker 13: the mismatch is so apparent to us, and it really

1982
01:55:08,360 --> 01:55:12,600
Speaker 13: brought us together, Like we have such a unique sense

1983
01:55:12,640 --> 01:55:15,600
Speaker 13: of solidarity as a working cohort. I feel like there's

1984
01:55:16,840 --> 01:55:20,360
Speaker 13: a lot of commiseration because we walk a very weird

1985
01:55:20,400 --> 01:55:24,080
Speaker 13: line throughout our community, and so I think it's a

1986
01:55:24,080 --> 01:55:27,640
Speaker 13: little bit just trying to assess what's going on in

1987
01:55:27,680 --> 01:55:31,400
Speaker 13: our stores and like how does that compare to what

1988
01:55:31,440 --> 01:55:34,120
Speaker 13: management tells us on a regular basis, and shouldn't we

1989
01:55:34,160 --> 01:55:35,200
Speaker 13: be doing something about that?

1990
01:55:36,080 --> 01:55:39,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that. I know that.

1991
01:55:39,480 --> 01:55:43,480
Speaker 11: Our first like big pre union meeting where we all

1992
01:55:43,520 --> 01:55:46,760
Speaker 11: got together in the basement of one of our houses

1993
01:55:46,880 --> 01:55:52,440
Speaker 11: and commiserated, was like after a pretty rough, like all

1994
01:55:52,480 --> 01:55:55,360
Speaker 11: store meeting that we had had in which we had

1995
01:55:55,480 --> 01:55:59,720
Speaker 11: continued to get really no response regarding questions about a

1996
01:55:59,760 --> 01:56:06,120
Speaker 11: living wage, or how we choose stock for our store,

1997
01:56:06,440 --> 01:56:12,640
Speaker 11: how communication between management and hourly booksellers was just so lacking,

1998
01:56:13,400 --> 01:56:18,000
Speaker 11: and we just got the same kind of messaging that

1999
01:56:18,560 --> 01:56:23,480
Speaker 11: was being given to customers, which is we're working on it.

2000
01:56:24,720 --> 01:56:28,040
Speaker 11: You're all of these things that you're saying are so valid,

2001
01:56:28,960 --> 01:56:30,640
Speaker 11: and we'll address them at a later date.

2002
01:56:33,160 --> 01:56:36,680
Speaker 12: Yeah, we were getting this great response of like, you know,

2003
01:56:36,960 --> 01:56:38,920
Speaker 12: we want to get you to not just a living wage,

2004
01:56:38,920 --> 01:56:41,400
Speaker 12: but a professional wage, and we have a five year plan,

2005
01:56:42,200 --> 01:56:45,000
Speaker 12: but we were halfway through that five year plan. The

2006
01:56:45,040 --> 01:56:47,920
Speaker 12: five year plan started right before the pandemic and had

2007
01:56:47,960 --> 01:56:51,520
Speaker 12: not been adjusted since, and there was no information on

2008
01:56:51,640 --> 01:56:55,840
Speaker 12: how we were going to in the last half of

2009
01:56:55,880 --> 01:57:00,440
Speaker 12: this five year plan, you know, suddenly increase wages to

2010
01:57:00,720 --> 01:57:04,640
Speaker 12: whatever a professional wage is let alone a living wage.

2011
01:57:05,240 --> 01:57:07,480
Speaker 12: So that was just a very a very frustrating, like

2012
01:57:08,440 --> 01:57:10,000
Speaker 12: completely empty answer.

2013
01:57:10,720 --> 01:57:12,680
Speaker 11: I think we were all very we were all hurt,

2014
01:57:13,200 --> 01:57:16,720
Speaker 11: and we got like the very first message in our

2015
01:57:16,760 --> 01:57:18,960
Speaker 11: group chat, which was just like so we're we're gonna

2016
01:57:19,000 --> 01:57:23,720
Speaker 11: we're gonna unionize, right, incredible, And that was like the

2017
01:57:23,720 --> 01:57:26,560
Speaker 11: start of it. And that was like last I want

2018
01:57:26,560 --> 01:57:32,480
Speaker 11: to say that was January of twenty twenty three was

2019
01:57:32,520 --> 01:57:33,440
Speaker 11: when that started.

2020
01:57:34,480 --> 01:57:35,600
Speaker 12: Yeah, they'reabouts.

2021
01:57:46,480 --> 01:57:49,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a that's I guess it's a pretty vast

2022
01:57:49,200 --> 01:57:52,160
Speaker 5: campaign by the looks of it. It's yeah, about it

2023
01:57:52,240 --> 01:57:56,640
Speaker 5: about it a bit over a year. Yeah, Yeah, congratulations

2024
01:57:56,680 --> 01:57:58,920
Speaker 5: to you all, by the way, thank you.

2025
01:57:59,360 --> 01:57:59,760
Speaker 1: Thanks.

2026
01:58:00,920 --> 01:58:04,800
Speaker 13: It's really thanks to the team that started in January though,

2027
01:58:04,840 --> 01:58:08,040
Speaker 13: because they have been really really proactive about reaching out

2028
01:58:08,040 --> 01:58:11,800
Speaker 13: to people when there are new booksellers. Because I have

2029
01:58:11,920 --> 01:58:13,480
Speaker 13: kind of a weird tenure at the store. I've worked

2030
01:58:13,480 --> 01:58:16,200
Speaker 13: there two separate times, but I wasn't part of the

2031
01:58:16,280 --> 01:58:20,480
Speaker 13: January meeting. But when I rejoined the co op in August,

2032
01:58:20,840 --> 01:58:23,240
Speaker 13: I think within the first week that I was there,

2033
01:58:23,440 --> 01:58:25,200
Speaker 13: one of my kokers came up to me while I

2034
01:58:25,240 --> 01:58:27,960
Speaker 13: was at the register and like in the standard getting

2035
01:58:28,000 --> 01:58:29,680
Speaker 13: to know you kind of speech, was like, how do

2036
01:58:29,720 --> 01:58:33,320
Speaker 13: you feel about labor organizing? And I was like, very

2037
01:58:33,360 --> 01:58:34,520
Speaker 13: in favor. Why do you ask?

2038
01:58:37,000 --> 01:58:39,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, that, by the way, dear listener, if you're at

2039
01:58:39,640 --> 01:58:41,360
Speaker 5: a union, that is that is what is known as

2040
01:58:41,440 --> 01:58:44,080
Speaker 5: good practice. It is, in fact a thing that you

2041
01:58:44,120 --> 01:58:46,600
Speaker 5: need to do. Whenever someone new joins your workplace and

2042
01:58:46,640 --> 01:58:48,960
Speaker 5: you have a union, bring them in. And if you

2043
01:58:49,000 --> 01:58:51,960
Speaker 5: don't do this, your unions will stagnate die. And there

2044
01:58:51,960 --> 01:58:54,600
Speaker 5: are there are like there are actually there are unions

2045
01:58:54,600 --> 01:58:56,120
Speaker 5: out there who will get mad at you for doing

2046
01:58:56,120 --> 01:58:58,840
Speaker 5: this because it takes resources or whatever, and don't listen

2047
01:58:58,880 --> 01:59:02,320
Speaker 5: to them. Please stop. Simply do not do this.

2048
01:59:02,320 --> 01:59:06,080
Speaker 13: This is the only defense against turnover, which is huge

2049
01:59:06,120 --> 01:59:08,720
Speaker 13: industries that most need to unionize.

2050
01:59:09,080 --> 01:59:12,160
Speaker 1: Yep, we have really crazy turnover.

2051
01:59:12,680 --> 01:59:16,960
Speaker 11: Like I think that of the original people who started talking,

2052
01:59:17,120 --> 01:59:18,879
Speaker 11: I mean and this was like there was a previous

2053
01:59:18,960 --> 01:59:22,160
Speaker 11: unionization effort too before our time that we know very

2054
01:59:22,200 --> 01:59:26,640
Speaker 11: little about. But of the original like January folks, very

2055
01:59:26,640 --> 01:59:30,919
Speaker 11: few of us are left just because of the turnover

2056
01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:34,600
Speaker 11: rate which is immense, and we get like groups of

2057
01:59:34,640 --> 01:59:39,560
Speaker 11: like three to four people hired at once every six

2058
01:59:39,600 --> 01:59:43,160
Speaker 11: months or so. And it's like, Okay, how quickly can

2059
01:59:43,200 --> 01:59:46,920
Speaker 11: we scope folks out, How quickly can we like do

2060
01:59:47,360 --> 01:59:49,560
Speaker 11: like a one on one and talk to them about

2061
01:59:49,560 --> 01:59:52,520
Speaker 11: how they feel about labor organizing. How can we get

2062
01:59:52,560 --> 01:59:56,600
Speaker 11: a sense of like what their main concerns are with

2063
01:59:58,200 --> 02:00:01,000
Speaker 11: the job and what they want from unionizing.

2064
02:00:01,240 --> 02:00:01,920
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2065
02:00:01,960 --> 02:00:04,120
Speaker 12: Well, and the turnover is also one of the things

2066
02:00:04,120 --> 02:00:08,520
Speaker 12: that sparked this because we had a wave of folks

2067
02:00:08,600 --> 02:00:13,480
Speaker 12: who were fired asked to leave or quit on their

2068
02:00:13,520 --> 02:00:17,840
Speaker 12: own terms. And we had another coworker who knew that

2069
02:00:18,400 --> 02:00:20,400
Speaker 12: she was kind of reaching the end of when she

2070
02:00:20,520 --> 02:00:25,000
Speaker 12: could you know, stay at the bookstore and was just

2071
02:00:25,240 --> 02:00:29,400
Speaker 12: very committed to like getting some momentum going in her

2072
02:00:29,480 --> 02:00:34,200
Speaker 12: last handful of months here and created, like you oside

2073
02:00:34,200 --> 02:00:36,240
Speaker 12: the group chat and was just very quit like all right,

2074
02:00:36,880 --> 02:00:40,120
Speaker 12: everyone were in the group chat like this message if

2075
02:00:40,160 --> 02:00:42,160
Speaker 12: you agree with the following statement, and then it was like,

2076
02:00:42,720 --> 02:00:45,360
Speaker 12: you know, the statements about like how much you care

2077
02:00:45,400 --> 02:00:47,160
Speaker 12: about the job, and then statements about like how much

2078
02:00:47,160 --> 02:00:49,680
Speaker 12: you agree that like a union would improve things, and

2079
02:00:50,040 --> 02:00:53,960
Speaker 12: just about everybody agreed a union would be a huge improvement.

2080
02:00:54,480 --> 02:00:57,400
Speaker 12: And that was I mean, that was also a really

2081
02:00:58,520 --> 02:01:02,520
Speaker 12: incredible resource because like before someone just created the group chat.

2082
02:01:03,200 --> 02:01:05,680
Speaker 12: We're in this really awkward phase of like three or

2083
02:01:05,680 --> 02:01:08,080
Speaker 12: four different groups of people trying to get a ball

2084
02:01:08,160 --> 02:01:13,480
Speaker 12: rolling and very like cautiously approaching folks. I had approached

2085
02:01:13,760 --> 02:01:16,480
Speaker 12: one or two people and been like that same exact question,

2086
02:01:16,640 --> 02:01:21,040
Speaker 12: like how do you feel about unions? And then there

2087
02:01:21,080 --> 02:01:23,440
Speaker 12: was someone else who was going around asking the exact

2088
02:01:23,440 --> 02:01:26,800
Speaker 12: same question. And you know, I was also at rege

2089
02:01:26,800 --> 02:01:29,000
Speaker 12: one day when she came up and asked ask me that,

2090
02:01:29,080 --> 02:01:31,760
Speaker 12: and I was like, Jesus, do I not have enough

2091
02:01:31,760 --> 02:01:35,320
Speaker 12: patches on my jacket? This is a question I need

2092
02:01:35,320 --> 02:01:36,040
Speaker 12: to fix something.

2093
02:01:38,600 --> 02:01:40,800
Speaker 11: It was a lot of like ships passing until the

2094
02:01:40,840 --> 02:01:44,120
Speaker 11: group chat got created, and then it was really quick.

2095
02:01:44,200 --> 02:01:47,400
Speaker 1: We had We started.

2096
02:01:47,320 --> 02:01:52,600
Speaker 11: Having like meetings, I want to say we had one

2097
02:01:52,920 --> 02:01:56,080
Speaker 11: like every three weeks to a month. In that first

2098
02:01:56,120 --> 02:02:03,120
Speaker 11: six months, we got together a letter of demands that

2099
02:02:03,280 --> 02:02:06,080
Speaker 11: we all read and signed. It was I think at

2100
02:02:06,080 --> 02:02:09,360
Speaker 11: the time of the how many were working there. It

2101
02:02:09,400 --> 02:02:15,280
Speaker 11: was like all but one maybe wow person signed it,

2102
02:02:15,920 --> 02:02:19,520
Speaker 11: and we all went to deliver it and read it

2103
02:02:19,560 --> 02:02:24,840
Speaker 11: to management and got a bunch of stuff right away.

2104
02:02:24,880 --> 02:02:28,720
Speaker 11: This was like well before yeah, well before we had

2105
02:02:29,920 --> 02:02:33,040
Speaker 11: signed with an or decided who we wanted to ununize with,

2106
02:02:33,240 --> 02:02:36,720
Speaker 11: and we still just threw that direct action got so

2107
02:02:36,920 --> 02:02:38,240
Speaker 11: much done.

2108
02:02:38,400 --> 02:02:41,280
Speaker 13: And I think that's part of the success that we've

2109
02:02:41,280 --> 02:02:43,160
Speaker 13: had so far too, is we do just have kind

2110
02:02:43,200 --> 02:02:46,280
Speaker 13: of a large number in our cohort of impatient people,

2111
02:02:46,880 --> 02:02:51,280
Speaker 13: which means that like, once we figure out what we want,

2112
02:02:51,560 --> 02:02:53,440
Speaker 13: we're just like, Okay, what's the fastest way we can

2113
02:02:53,480 --> 02:02:55,360
Speaker 13: ask for this and get it recognized.

2114
02:02:56,720 --> 02:02:59,600
Speaker 12: That first march that we did, that first letter was

2115
02:02:59,640 --> 02:03:03,400
Speaker 12: also just I mean, it really like fueled all of

2116
02:03:03,520 --> 02:03:06,760
Speaker 12: the rest of this, I think because the stuff that

2117
02:03:06,800 --> 02:03:11,360
Speaker 12: we won was so I think so immediately felt for

2118
02:03:11,440 --> 02:03:12,440
Speaker 12: everyone working there.

2119
02:03:12,880 --> 02:03:15,920
Speaker 5: There wasn't things, Uh what kinds of things did you win?

2120
02:03:15,960 --> 02:03:16,400
Speaker 6: In that one?

2121
02:03:17,120 --> 02:03:22,320
Speaker 12: We won expanded health insurance. Previously very few people qualified

2122
02:03:22,480 --> 02:03:27,880
Speaker 12: for health insurance. We got that pretty tremendously broadened. I mean,

2123
02:03:27,920 --> 02:03:30,040
Speaker 12: that's I think how THEO and I ended up getting

2124
02:03:30,440 --> 02:03:35,160
Speaker 12: health insurance. We got things like, you know, improved maternity leave,

2125
02:03:35,280 --> 02:03:39,120
Speaker 12: improved bereavement leave. The definition of who you could take

2126
02:03:39,200 --> 02:03:42,840
Speaker 12: berievement leave for was broadened. It was like previously a

2127
02:03:42,880 --> 02:03:46,800
Speaker 12: grid of like nine types of relation, and then it

2128
02:03:46,840 --> 02:03:50,360
Speaker 12: got just fully expanded to like include chosen family and

2129
02:03:50,440 --> 02:03:53,560
Speaker 12: just whoever you know you felt the need to claim

2130
02:03:53,560 --> 02:03:56,720
Speaker 12: berievement leave for as well as just how many days,

2131
02:03:57,240 --> 02:04:02,040
Speaker 12: which was tremendous. I mean, it was like a week

2132
02:04:02,160 --> 02:04:06,280
Speaker 12: after the change you know, got actually implemented into our

2133
02:04:07,400 --> 02:04:11,680
Speaker 12: leave system, that I found out a relative was dying,

2134
02:04:12,160 --> 02:04:17,200
Speaker 12: And because we had gotten that expansion, I didn't have

2135
02:04:17,320 --> 02:04:22,520
Speaker 12: to choose between driving my grandmother to be by her bedside,

2136
02:04:23,680 --> 02:04:27,480
Speaker 12: be by this other relative's bedside, or going to the funeral.

2137
02:04:28,040 --> 02:04:30,840
Speaker 12: I was able to take time off for both of those,

2138
02:04:31,240 --> 02:04:34,680
Speaker 12: which you know, meant everything to me, meant everything to

2139
02:04:34,680 --> 02:04:35,160
Speaker 12: my grandma.

2140
02:04:36,600 --> 02:04:36,960
Speaker 4: And so.

2141
02:04:38,400 --> 02:04:41,840
Speaker 12: You know, when we talk when we're looking at issues,

2142
02:04:41,840 --> 02:04:43,440
Speaker 12: when we're organizing, and we talk about things that are

2143
02:04:43,480 --> 02:04:46,360
Speaker 12: widely felt, that are deeply felt, that are actionable, and

2144
02:04:46,520 --> 02:04:50,400
Speaker 12: like those kinds of changes are very deeply felt. And

2145
02:04:50,440 --> 02:04:53,120
Speaker 12: so there wasn't you know, there really hasn't been a

2146
02:04:53,120 --> 02:04:57,280
Speaker 12: point since then when anyone could remotely make the argument

2147
02:04:57,400 --> 02:05:03,520
Speaker 12: that organizing doesn't create positive, impactful change.

2148
02:05:04,280 --> 02:05:07,160
Speaker 13: Yeah, the handbook that I was onboarded with the second

2149
02:05:07,240 --> 02:05:09,920
Speaker 13: time that I came to the stores was significantly different

2150
02:05:10,120 --> 02:05:12,880
Speaker 13: than the handbook that I was onboarded with the first time,

2151
02:05:13,000 --> 02:05:16,160
Speaker 13: and it was because this list of demands had gone

2152
02:05:16,160 --> 02:05:20,240
Speaker 13: out in the interim, because the policies about like just

2153
02:05:21,240 --> 02:05:25,000
Speaker 13: our character as a store and the way that we

2154
02:05:25,120 --> 02:05:28,400
Speaker 13: want to interact with our community were completely different, and

2155
02:05:28,440 --> 02:05:33,960
Speaker 13: it was very much that like booksellers who interact with

2156
02:05:33,960 --> 02:05:36,040
Speaker 13: the community on a daily basis, had had a say

2157
02:05:36,200 --> 02:05:36,959
Speaker 13: in the meantime.

2158
02:05:37,680 --> 02:05:39,600
Speaker 5: Hell yeah, okay, So unfortunately we have to go to

2159
02:05:39,640 --> 02:05:44,080
Speaker 5: an ad break. But oh we returned. Well, I don't know,

2160
02:05:44,240 --> 02:05:47,760
Speaker 5: go back to what we were doing before, question work.

2161
02:05:48,040 --> 02:05:50,160
Speaker 5: I don't know, not not. My fight is to ad pivot.

2162
02:05:50,200 --> 02:05:52,200
Speaker 5: But you know, look if they if they, if they

2163
02:05:52,320 --> 02:05:54,280
Speaker 5: paid me more, they'd get more good AD pivots. But

2164
02:05:54,320 --> 02:05:57,080
Speaker 5: they don't fear get in the media. Once you gotta

2165
02:05:57,120 --> 02:05:58,440
Speaker 5: work your wage.

2166
02:05:58,640 --> 02:06:11,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, and we're back.

2167
02:06:12,800 --> 02:06:16,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, So you know, the organizing students have come together

2168
02:06:17,120 --> 02:06:20,240
Speaker 5: pretty quickly. I guess, do you want to talk about

2169
02:06:20,520 --> 02:06:23,440
Speaker 5: how you ended up being an AWW shop?

2170
02:06:24,120 --> 02:06:26,520
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean I'm happy to talk on that a

2171
02:06:26,560 --> 02:06:28,520
Speaker 12: little bit. You know, when we got to the point

2172
02:06:28,520 --> 02:06:33,480
Speaker 12: where were deciding who we wanted to affiliate with, I

2173
02:06:33,520 --> 02:06:37,200
Speaker 12: sent out feelers to just a bunch of different unions.

2174
02:06:37,800 --> 02:06:41,200
Speaker 12: Two got back to me a larger trade union that

2175
02:06:41,240 --> 02:06:44,480
Speaker 12: I'm totally spacing on the name of, or a commercial

2176
02:06:44,600 --> 02:06:48,240
Speaker 12: union the term for like the really big one, the

2177
02:06:48,360 --> 02:06:54,720
Speaker 12: really big types of unions, and the IWW and I

2178
02:06:54,760 --> 02:06:58,000
Speaker 12: had meetings or phone calls with representatives from both of them.

2179
02:06:58,920 --> 02:07:01,040
Speaker 12: The you and I put together kind of a graphic

2180
02:07:01,440 --> 02:07:04,600
Speaker 12: sort of comparing like the pros and cons of two

2181
02:07:05,400 --> 02:07:10,760
Speaker 12: very different options, right like a big international union or

2182
02:07:11,720 --> 02:07:13,840
Speaker 12: I mean IWW obviously international, it's right in there in

2183
02:07:13,880 --> 02:07:18,720
Speaker 12: the name, but obviously a smaller, much more autonomous union.

2184
02:07:19,520 --> 02:07:24,919
Speaker 12: And I wanted to go IWW. I did my absolute

2185
02:07:25,000 --> 02:07:28,640
Speaker 12: best to not let that bias inform the pros and

2186
02:07:28,680 --> 02:07:31,880
Speaker 12: cons lists and whatnot, and we, you know, we sat

2187
02:07:31,920 --> 02:07:37,600
Speaker 12: around in this room here and just chatted it out,

2188
02:07:37,680 --> 02:07:39,960
Speaker 12: talked about our preferences, what mattered to all of us,

2189
02:07:40,040 --> 02:07:44,800
Speaker 12: and you know, what we decided was that, amongst other things,

2190
02:07:44,840 --> 02:07:47,240
Speaker 12: one of like the really big sort of organizing principles

2191
02:07:47,280 --> 02:07:51,360
Speaker 12: of this has been increasing our own agency and autonomy

2192
02:07:51,360 --> 02:07:55,520
Speaker 12: in the workplace, and the IWW's model just felt like

2193
02:07:55,560 --> 02:07:59,919
Speaker 12: it would give us the most control over our own campaign.

2194
02:08:01,240 --> 02:08:06,400
Speaker 12: And so that's that's how we ended up voting to

2195
02:08:06,600 --> 02:08:10,560
Speaker 12: become an IWW. You know lead, then campaign, and now

2196
02:08:10,600 --> 02:08:12,320
Speaker 12: finally shop branch.

2197
02:08:13,400 --> 02:08:17,120
Speaker 11: I think that the IWW really fit how our store

2198
02:08:17,120 --> 02:08:19,160
Speaker 11: and our organizing had worked thus far.

2199
02:08:19,520 --> 02:08:19,680
Speaker 6: Too.

2200
02:08:20,200 --> 02:08:22,800
Speaker 11: It felt like it matched the character of our organizing.

2201
02:08:23,640 --> 02:08:28,160
Speaker 11: It's definitely much scrappier it, you know, the IWW having

2202
02:08:28,160 --> 02:08:33,440
Speaker 11: a history in Chicago definitely was a factor in my

2203
02:08:34,160 --> 02:08:37,520
Speaker 11: personal desire to be affiliated with them. I thought it

2204
02:08:37,560 --> 02:08:40,080
Speaker 11: was really cool to be joining that like long tradition

2205
02:08:40,320 --> 02:08:45,720
Speaker 11: of IWW shops in Chicago. I think that direct the

2206
02:08:45,800 --> 02:08:54,080
Speaker 11: emphasis on direct employee action versus like contract bargaining fit

2207
02:08:54,200 --> 02:08:56,440
Speaker 11: very well for us as well. I think, especially considering

2208
02:08:56,480 --> 02:09:00,320
Speaker 11: things like the turnover and how we wanted to make

2209
02:09:00,360 --> 02:09:03,240
Speaker 11: sure that you know, if we argue to contract, if

2210
02:09:03,280 --> 02:09:07,920
Speaker 11: we bargain for a contract now, that it would be

2211
02:09:07,960 --> 02:09:11,800
Speaker 11: difficult to know, you know, even a year or two

2212
02:09:11,840 --> 02:09:14,920
Speaker 11: down the line, if those points and those things that

2213
02:09:14,960 --> 02:09:16,480
Speaker 11: we bargained for would be what.

2214
02:09:17,040 --> 02:09:18,520
Speaker 1: Folks would want then.

2215
02:09:19,840 --> 02:09:26,040
Speaker 11: And so getting to use more direct action and response

2216
02:09:27,520 --> 02:09:30,760
Speaker 11: to make gains in the workplace has been.

2217
02:09:32,320 --> 02:09:32,920
Speaker 1: I think a.

2218
02:09:34,480 --> 02:09:38,440
Speaker 11: Really helpful strategy and one that the IWW facilitates really

2219
02:09:38,480 --> 02:09:41,880
Speaker 11: well with how it trains organizing.

2220
02:09:42,600 --> 02:09:44,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, that all makes a lot of sense. And I

2221
02:09:44,400 --> 02:09:46,800
Speaker 5: guess you know, the question for there is how did

2222
02:09:46,840 --> 02:09:49,720
Speaker 5: management sort of react and what's been the kind of

2223
02:09:50,240 --> 02:09:54,480
Speaker 5: what's what's what's what's been the kind of relationship vibe

2224
02:09:54,680 --> 02:09:55,520
Speaker 5: since then?

2225
02:09:57,720 --> 02:10:03,080
Speaker 13: I mean management volunte taily recognized us immediately, but they

2226
02:10:03,120 --> 02:10:08,600
Speaker 13: also had very clear notice ahead of time that we

2227
02:10:08,720 --> 02:10:10,960
Speaker 13: had been organizing, Like we had been presenting them with

2228
02:10:11,040 --> 02:10:13,160
Speaker 13: demands on a regular basis. We had been emailing them

2229
02:10:13,160 --> 02:10:16,680
Speaker 13: from an anonymous account requesting that they closed the stores

2230
02:10:16,760 --> 02:10:19,400
Speaker 13: when the cold was too intense for most of us

2231
02:10:19,440 --> 02:10:23,520
Speaker 13: to safely get to work, Like they would be very

2232
02:10:23,680 --> 02:10:26,440
Speaker 13: very deeply buried under the rocks if they didn't know

2233
02:10:26,520 --> 02:10:30,480
Speaker 13: that we were like talking to each other. So I

2234
02:10:30,480 --> 02:10:33,160
Speaker 13: think that they had a plan, And they also know

2235
02:10:33,280 --> 02:10:36,560
Speaker 13: the character of our community, which is very theoretically leftist,

2236
02:10:36,720 --> 02:10:38,760
Speaker 13: and so they knew that they really didn't have another

2237
02:10:38,840 --> 02:10:43,800
Speaker 13: option because like we were at critical mass, and they

2238
02:10:43,800 --> 02:10:47,200
Speaker 13: would look really bad in the eyes of everyone.

2239
02:10:46,880 --> 02:10:49,240
Speaker 14: That they respect if they said nothing.

2240
02:10:50,400 --> 02:10:54,800
Speaker 12: By the time that we announced to management that we'd unionized,

2241
02:10:55,360 --> 02:11:00,280
Speaker 12: something like twenty one twenty two out of two twenty

2242
02:11:00,360 --> 02:11:03,720
Speaker 12: three hourly workers were members of the IWW.

2243
02:11:06,240 --> 02:11:08,320
Speaker 14: We showed up in T shirts. It was a lot.

2244
02:11:09,000 --> 02:11:12,800
Speaker 11: Yeah, incredible when you walk in, when you walk in

2245
02:11:12,800 --> 02:11:15,800
Speaker 11: in your IWW shirt to sit down at like an

2246
02:11:15,840 --> 02:11:18,720
Speaker 11: all store meeting, and then the next person walks in

2247
02:11:18,800 --> 02:11:21,120
Speaker 11: and they're also wearing that shirt, and then the next

2248
02:11:21,160 --> 02:11:22,839
Speaker 11: person it's like, yeah, we've.

2249
02:11:22,640 --> 02:11:26,760
Speaker 1: Got the numbers. Something's about to happen. And they knew.

2250
02:11:27,600 --> 02:11:30,200
Speaker 11: They knew because we'd heard them I think, like not

2251
02:11:30,320 --> 02:11:34,480
Speaker 11: two days before being like, yeah, we think that they're

2252
02:11:34,480 --> 02:11:36,120
Speaker 11: on the precipice of unionizing.

2253
02:11:37,400 --> 02:11:40,160
Speaker 14: If we were like, boy, you have no idea.

2254
02:11:41,480 --> 02:11:44,680
Speaker 11: Yeah, they took it as well as we expected them

2255
02:11:45,000 --> 02:11:47,160
Speaker 11: to take it.

2256
02:11:47,200 --> 02:11:48,440
Speaker 1: As Finn said.

2257
02:11:48,800 --> 02:11:51,920
Speaker 12: We had been in a organized meeting the night before

2258
02:11:51,960 --> 02:11:53,720
Speaker 12: and had been in our group chet you know, that morning,

2259
02:11:54,240 --> 02:11:58,120
Speaker 12: preparing for all manner of different scenarios. If they didn't

2260
02:11:58,160 --> 02:12:02,000
Speaker 12: take it well and then and then they did.

2261
02:12:02,320 --> 02:12:05,600
Speaker 5: How have they been acting after, Because there's there's definitely

2262
02:12:05,640 --> 02:12:08,000
Speaker 5: it can be a huge gap between vaulty recognition and

2263
02:12:08,040 --> 02:12:10,879
Speaker 5: then them actually doing anything.

2264
02:12:12,320 --> 02:12:15,920
Speaker 11: Yeah, So the structure of management is real interesting. At

2265
02:12:15,920 --> 02:12:19,520
Speaker 11: our store, Like I said, we had we have twenty

2266
02:12:19,760 --> 02:12:27,160
Speaker 11: three currently hourly booksellers, and then that to how many managers.

2267
02:12:27,760 --> 02:12:31,000
Speaker 14: Six at least eight eight count.

2268
02:12:32,480 --> 02:12:36,880
Speaker 11: Yes, this is a fun quirk about our store. The

2269
02:12:36,920 --> 02:12:41,040
Speaker 11: manager to bookseller ratio is insane. And then we've got

2270
02:12:41,080 --> 02:12:47,000
Speaker 11: like our directors who are not counted in the manager number,

2271
02:12:47,520 --> 02:12:48,120
Speaker 11: which is okay.

2272
02:12:48,200 --> 02:12:52,120
Speaker 13: So we've got five managers and three directors.

2273
02:12:52,360 --> 02:12:57,720
Speaker 11: Five managers and three directors for twenty three hourly employees.

2274
02:12:58,200 --> 02:13:01,320
Speaker 1: And I think that, yeah, yeah.

2275
02:13:01,160 --> 02:13:03,840
Speaker 14: And have to use that ratio in meetings.

2276
02:13:04,280 --> 02:13:05,280
Speaker 1: They talk about that a lot.

2277
02:13:06,760 --> 02:13:07,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think that.

2278
02:13:09,720 --> 02:13:12,760
Speaker 11: No, no, no, no, we talk about it a lot

2279
02:13:12,800 --> 02:13:20,280
Speaker 11: like as and I think that, well, it's interesting because

2280
02:13:20,280 --> 02:13:23,000
Speaker 11: in these store meetings it is usually only the director

2281
02:13:23,040 --> 02:13:25,440
Speaker 11: that talks. I don't think we've ever heard managers talk

2282
02:13:25,560 --> 02:13:29,600
Speaker 11: in an all storm meeting. So when the director voluntarily

2283
02:13:29,720 --> 02:13:33,720
Speaker 11: or recognizes our union, we also have to really look

2284
02:13:33,760 --> 02:13:35,920
Speaker 11: at the faces of every manager to see what they're

2285
02:13:35,960 --> 02:13:36,560
Speaker 11: actually feeling.

2286
02:13:36,640 --> 02:13:40,320
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of managers are.

2287
02:13:42,240 --> 02:13:42,360
Speaker 14: Have.

2288
02:13:42,960 --> 02:13:45,760
Speaker 11: My suspicion is that a lot of managers share equal

2289
02:13:45,800 --> 02:13:50,960
Speaker 11: frustration with a lot of the ways that the store is.

2290
02:13:52,880 --> 02:13:54,920
Speaker 1: Managed, even above them.

2291
02:13:55,920 --> 02:14:01,440
Speaker 11: And I think, obviously they can't say anything to us

2292
02:14:01,560 --> 02:14:04,160
Speaker 11: about how they feel about our.

2293
02:14:04,160 --> 02:14:09,600
Speaker 13: Union, but but anecdotally, they were so excited to take

2294
02:14:09,640 --> 02:14:12,560
Speaker 13: our picture after we announced that we had unilized.

2295
02:14:14,720 --> 02:14:15,840
Speaker 5: That's really funny.

2296
02:14:16,200 --> 02:14:19,520
Speaker 1: We did get management to take our photo, which we.

2297
02:14:19,520 --> 02:14:21,880
Speaker 13: Hadn't joked about in the group chat in the morning, Like, Lol,

2298
02:14:21,880 --> 02:14:24,200
Speaker 13: wouldn't it be hilarious if we made the managers take

2299
02:14:24,200 --> 02:14:25,280
Speaker 13: our picture and then they shor.

2300
02:14:25,280 --> 02:14:27,839
Speaker 5: Did That's so funny.

2301
02:14:28,200 --> 02:14:31,400
Speaker 11: Yeah, On a day to day level, I think things

2302
02:14:31,480 --> 02:14:33,160
Speaker 11: have been generally.

2303
02:14:34,360 --> 02:14:39,720
Speaker 1: No more or less awkward than usual. The vibe can be, yeah,

2304
02:14:39,840 --> 02:14:41,120
Speaker 1: bizarre on them.

2305
02:14:41,320 --> 02:14:42,040
Speaker 7: The vibe is.

2306
02:14:41,960 --> 02:14:45,040
Speaker 13: Also very highly colored right now by a lot of

2307
02:14:45,080 --> 02:14:47,040
Speaker 13: other big changes that are happening at the stores that

2308
02:14:47,080 --> 02:14:49,520
Speaker 13: have nothing to do with our union, and so like

2309
02:14:49,960 --> 02:14:54,360
Speaker 13: it's very difficult to sort of suss out which weirdness

2310
02:14:54,480 --> 02:14:58,120
Speaker 13: is which. But definitely I think the union weirdness is

2311
02:14:58,200 --> 02:14:59,160
Speaker 13: on the lesser end.

2312
02:14:59,440 --> 02:15:05,000
Speaker 12: Actually, yeah, I mean, I think the only real indication

2313
02:15:05,240 --> 02:15:08,480
Speaker 12: we have in the last in this kind of just

2314
02:15:09,000 --> 02:15:13,800
Speaker 12: little stretch since we announced is that we've been emailing

2315
02:15:13,840 --> 02:15:19,080
Speaker 12: with our director for like to schedule a announcement from

2316
02:15:19,320 --> 02:15:24,320
Speaker 12: the store side, and you know, we sent basically copy

2317
02:15:24,400 --> 02:15:27,800
Speaker 12: that we would like them to use and listed out

2318
02:15:27,840 --> 02:15:29,880
Speaker 12: what venues we would like it posted, and they've been

2319
02:15:30,880 --> 02:15:33,640
Speaker 12: just very accommodating to all of that. We haven't been

2320
02:15:33,640 --> 02:15:37,080
Speaker 12: getting any pushback like how the store how or when

2321
02:15:37,120 --> 02:15:41,520
Speaker 12: the store announces to the you know, mailing list and

2322
02:15:41,560 --> 02:15:44,960
Speaker 12: the community social media following and so on, so you

2323
02:15:45,000 --> 02:15:45,720
Speaker 12: know there's that.

2324
02:15:46,920 --> 02:15:49,839
Speaker 11: Yeah, it hasn't really been talked about that publicly yet.

2325
02:15:50,120 --> 02:15:52,040
Speaker 1: It's about to be. I do know that.

2326
02:15:53,680 --> 02:15:56,800
Speaker 11: When at the at the event that I was running

2327
02:15:57,080 --> 02:16:03,320
Speaker 11: or working at yesterday the unionization, we got congratulated on

2328
02:16:03,360 --> 02:16:06,440
Speaker 11: our unionization and one of my managers was just that

2329
02:16:06,560 --> 02:16:09,800
Speaker 11: was to my manager's face, and I think her reaction

2330
02:16:09,960 --> 02:16:15,160
Speaker 11: was like, oh, so you know they're taking it. They'd

2331
02:16:15,200 --> 02:16:16,920
Speaker 11: being very polite about it. I don't think they know

2332
02:16:17,320 --> 02:16:23,120
Speaker 11: that other people know yet, but yeah, if they when

2333
02:16:23,160 --> 02:16:25,400
Speaker 11: it happens, I'm sure they're not going to be weird

2334
02:16:25,840 --> 02:16:28,920
Speaker 11: about it, at least I hope not.

2335
02:16:29,960 --> 02:16:33,400
Speaker 13: I think the main thing management wants to do everything

2336
02:16:33,400 --> 02:16:36,119
Speaker 13: in writing, and I think that's correct in some ways

2337
02:16:36,200 --> 02:16:39,800
Speaker 13: and like that's about to happen, But in terms of

2338
02:16:41,240 --> 02:16:45,560
Speaker 13: how they will interact with us once it is fully

2339
02:16:45,600 --> 02:16:49,200
Speaker 13: public and fully announced and fully in writing, I'm not sure.

2340
02:16:50,160 --> 02:16:53,680
Speaker 11: I also think that the reactions that we're getting now

2341
02:16:53,680 --> 02:16:56,640
Speaker 11: are the ways that they interact with us now that

2342
02:16:56,680 --> 02:16:59,720
Speaker 11: we have announced versus the ways that they may interact

2343
02:16:59,720 --> 02:17:04,320
Speaker 11: with us once we start really pushing for our demands.

2344
02:17:04,800 --> 02:17:08,560
Speaker 11: That is that that could change pretty quickly, especially when

2345
02:17:08,600 --> 02:17:12,880
Speaker 11: it comes to the living wage demand, that is very

2346
02:17:12,920 --> 02:17:16,720
Speaker 11: at the forefront of what we're fighting for. That's also

2347
02:17:16,760 --> 02:17:20,920
Speaker 11: been the one that has like the most tension behind

2348
02:17:20,920 --> 02:17:23,680
Speaker 11: it when we've brought it up in the past. And

2349
02:17:25,480 --> 02:17:27,760
Speaker 11: I think that once they realized that we're not just

2350
02:17:27,959 --> 02:17:34,000
Speaker 11: unionizing for fun, things might change pretty quickly.

2351
02:17:34,080 --> 02:17:35,360
Speaker 1: And so we're just going to have to be on

2352
02:17:36,920 --> 02:17:37,600
Speaker 1: We'll be on our.

2353
02:17:37,520 --> 02:17:41,240
Speaker 13: Toes because a big reason that we unionized was because

2354
02:17:41,240 --> 02:17:44,440
Speaker 13: we needed to have more weight behind that demand, because

2355
02:17:44,480 --> 02:17:46,800
Speaker 13: that was one of the core demands that has been

2356
02:17:46,800 --> 02:17:50,119
Speaker 13: made for the longest amount of time, with the least

2357
02:17:50,160 --> 02:17:53,720
Speaker 13: amount of movement and the most empty promises, and so

2358
02:17:54,800 --> 02:17:58,280
Speaker 13: we wanted to prove to them, hey, you have to

2359
02:17:58,360 --> 02:18:01,160
Speaker 13: listen to us about this. And I think that they

2360
02:18:01,240 --> 02:18:04,199
Speaker 13: might not have fully cottoned on to that yet.

2361
02:18:05,800 --> 02:18:07,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I guess I guess we'll just sort of

2362
02:18:07,120 --> 02:18:10,720
Speaker 5: have to see how how they react to the sort

2363
02:18:10,720 --> 02:18:13,680
Speaker 5: of hammer coming down on them now that day spent

2364
02:18:13,800 --> 02:18:16,760
Speaker 5: all this time not actually doing anything. Yeah, I think

2365
02:18:16,840 --> 02:18:18,680
Speaker 5: I think That's a pretty good place to wrap up.

2366
02:18:18,720 --> 02:18:20,240
Speaker 5: Is there anyth unless there's anything else that you want

2367
02:18:20,280 --> 02:18:21,920
Speaker 5: to make sure that gets mentioned.

2368
02:18:24,320 --> 02:18:26,200
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean I think one thing I would like

2369
02:18:26,280 --> 02:18:30,040
Speaker 12: to say towards the end here is that a big

2370
02:18:30,200 --> 02:18:33,879
Speaker 12: part of what's been motivating us through all of this

2371
02:18:34,080 --> 02:18:38,720
Speaker 12: is seeing the sort of rise of labor power nationally

2372
02:18:39,280 --> 02:18:44,880
Speaker 12: with you know, the strikes in LA with like the writers,

2373
02:18:44,920 --> 02:18:48,480
Speaker 12: the actress strikes, seeing you know, teacher strikes going on

2374
02:18:49,840 --> 02:18:52,600
Speaker 12: with you know, the union stories that you all have

2375
02:18:52,640 --> 02:18:55,440
Speaker 12: been covering on this podcast, with folks like Frida Egg

2376
02:18:57,000 --> 02:19:00,760
Speaker 12: and I just yeah, I just want to say, like

2377
02:19:01,360 --> 02:19:04,840
Speaker 12: if for other folks who are working in a small space,

2378
02:19:05,040 --> 02:19:10,160
Speaker 12: in a retail space and thinking about unionizing, I mean,

2379
02:19:10,200 --> 02:19:14,920
Speaker 12: it's hard work, but it's deeply rewarding work, and if

2380
02:19:14,959 --> 02:19:17,720
Speaker 12: you put the time and dedication into it, it is

2381
02:19:18,440 --> 02:19:22,960
Speaker 12: absolutely possible to organize your workplace, especially if you're somewhere

2382
02:19:22,959 --> 02:19:26,400
Speaker 12: with twenty thirty co workers where you can get everyone

2383
02:19:26,440 --> 02:19:28,720
Speaker 12: into a group chat, where you can get everyone together

2384
02:19:28,879 --> 02:19:33,360
Speaker 12: in you know, someone's basement, someone's living room. You know,

2385
02:19:34,120 --> 02:19:42,840
Speaker 12: we're really at an incredible moment in labor as a movement,

2386
02:19:44,200 --> 02:19:48,560
Speaker 12: and just if you're thinking about organizing your workplace, Start

2387
02:19:48,560 --> 02:19:52,480
Speaker 12: talking to your coworkers, start talking to your friends. It's doable.

2388
02:19:54,080 --> 02:19:58,680
Speaker 12: It's hard, but there's power in a union and we

2389
02:19:58,800 --> 02:19:59,200
Speaker 12: can win.

2390
02:20:01,480 --> 02:20:03,039
Speaker 5: Hell yeah, I.

2391
02:20:03,000 --> 02:20:04,879
Speaker 13: Think there was something to be said too, just for

2392
02:20:05,000 --> 02:20:08,080
Speaker 13: the like sheer morale boost that comes from organizing with

2393
02:20:08,120 --> 02:20:12,640
Speaker 13: your co workers, because it makes everything better even as

2394
02:20:12,680 --> 02:20:17,640
Speaker 13: like your material reality doesn't change immediately, your outlook and

2395
02:20:17,720 --> 02:20:20,960
Speaker 13: ability to manage it, and to just feel like someone

2396
02:20:21,040 --> 02:20:25,480
Speaker 13: is in the same boat as you unparalleled really worth it.

2397
02:20:25,480 --> 02:20:28,680
Speaker 11: It feels yeah, it feels good. It feels good to

2398
02:20:28,920 --> 02:20:32,400
Speaker 11: have something to be proud of, something that you've put

2399
02:20:32,440 --> 02:20:36,520
Speaker 11: a lot of time into, Like coming to Fruition and

2400
02:20:36,920 --> 02:20:40,959
Speaker 11: seeing all of these people that you've worked together with

2401
02:20:41,120 --> 02:20:47,600
Speaker 11: to help make like tangible gains for your community.

2402
02:20:47,800 --> 02:20:48,959
Speaker 1: It feels like I think that.

2403
02:20:50,840 --> 02:20:55,400
Speaker 11: When you have a job, that is, when you're working

2404
02:20:55,480 --> 02:20:58,800
Speaker 11: a job that sometimes makes it difficult to feel proud

2405
02:20:58,920 --> 02:21:00,920
Speaker 11: of yourself and what you're doing a day to day basis.

2406
02:21:00,920 --> 02:21:05,679
Speaker 11: For whatever reason, having organizing and having.

2407
02:21:05,720 --> 02:21:07,680
Speaker 1: Your coworkers.

2408
02:21:08,680 --> 02:21:12,960
Speaker 11: There to make something really really good, not just for

2409
02:21:13,040 --> 02:21:17,840
Speaker 11: each other, but for future workers and for workers at

2410
02:21:17,879 --> 02:21:22,080
Speaker 11: other stores who may see our efforts and go.

2411
02:21:22,040 --> 02:21:24,600
Speaker 1: I can do that too. That makes you.

2412
02:21:25,120 --> 02:21:29,120
Speaker 11: That makes me proud, and it feels really good to

2413
02:21:29,160 --> 02:21:30,160
Speaker 11: have something to be proud of.

2414
02:21:31,160 --> 02:21:33,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, getting getting to fight for your class is a

2415
02:21:33,160 --> 02:21:34,080
Speaker 5: great feelings.

2416
02:21:35,240 --> 02:21:36,520
Speaker 6: It rules.

2417
02:21:37,400 --> 02:21:41,039
Speaker 5: Yeah. So I guess where where can people find the

2418
02:21:41,160 --> 02:21:42,760
Speaker 5: union if they want to help support stuff?

2419
02:21:43,520 --> 02:21:43,840
Speaker 13: Got it?

2420
02:21:43,879 --> 02:21:45,840
Speaker 14: Pull up our newly minted social media.

2421
02:21:46,400 --> 02:21:47,200
Speaker 5: That's nice.

2422
02:21:47,720 --> 02:21:50,080
Speaker 12: I had this ready to go earlier today and then

2423
02:21:50,120 --> 02:21:51,920
Speaker 12: I forgot to keep it open.

2424
02:21:53,280 --> 02:21:55,359
Speaker 5: No worries, We'll put the links in the description.

2425
02:21:55,879 --> 02:21:57,720
Speaker 14: These are some fresh, fresh handles.

2426
02:21:58,520 --> 02:22:02,000
Speaker 12: Here we go. Yeah, so, folks can find us on

2427
02:22:02,040 --> 02:22:06,920
Speaker 12: Instagram at sem co Op Booksellers Union sem c P

2428
02:22:07,360 --> 02:22:12,760
Speaker 12: Booksellers Union, or on Twitter at sem co Op Union.

2429
02:22:13,959 --> 02:22:18,160
Speaker 12: Hopefully we will, you know, start posting on soon and

2430
02:22:18,160 --> 02:22:20,760
Speaker 12: that's going to be the best way to sort of

2431
02:22:21,240 --> 02:22:27,360
Speaker 12: keep up with our store, our situation from specifically the

2432
02:22:27,440 --> 02:22:29,520
Speaker 12: perspective of the laborers.

2433
02:22:31,040 --> 02:22:35,360
Speaker 11: Also, if you're in Chicago, come and say hi, Come

2434
02:22:35,400 --> 02:22:39,360
Speaker 11: to our stores, Come talk to uhur like, come talk

2435
02:22:39,400 --> 02:22:40,040
Speaker 11: to the workers.

2436
02:22:41,040 --> 02:22:42,640
Speaker 1: We have a lot to say. We'd love to talk

2437
02:22:42,640 --> 02:22:43,800
Speaker 1: to you about it.

2438
02:22:45,760 --> 02:22:48,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's a great place and it's gotten significantly

2439
02:22:48,200 --> 02:22:51,840
Speaker 5: better now that this now now that it's unionized and

2440
02:22:52,240 --> 02:22:55,679
Speaker 5: hopefully one day I don't know, fuck it, don't all.

2441
02:22:55,800 --> 02:22:57,840
Speaker 5: I'll say this hope hopefully one day it is a

2442
02:22:57,879 --> 02:22:59,120
Speaker 5: fucking actual co op.

2443
02:22:59,320 --> 02:23:03,160
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, that's the dream, that's all we want.

2444
02:23:07,920 --> 02:23:10,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, so thank you all for coming on and good

2445
02:23:10,400 --> 02:23:13,760
Speaker 5: luck and yeah, hope hope management folds like a fucking

2446
02:23:14,040 --> 02:23:15,080
Speaker 5: wet paper towel.

2447
02:23:16,280 --> 02:23:18,920
Speaker 12: Hell yeah, thanks so much for having us.

2448
02:23:19,080 --> 02:23:21,960
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. This was amazing.

2449
02:23:24,080 --> 02:23:26,000
Speaker 5: Excited to have talked to you all. And yeah, this

2450
02:23:26,080 --> 02:23:28,600
Speaker 5: has been. It could happen here. You can do this too,

2451
02:23:28,920 --> 02:23:32,440
Speaker 5: and yeah, well we'll have we'll have exciting stuff coming

2452
02:23:32,440 --> 02:23:36,039
Speaker 5: tomorrow too. Yeah. Go go organize your workplace and make

2453
02:23:36,080 --> 02:23:54,200
Speaker 5: your bosses miserable and make your lives better. Welcome to

2454
02:23:54,280 --> 02:23:57,160
Speaker 5: it could happen here? Podcast about things falling apart how

2455
02:23:57,200 --> 02:23:59,840
Speaker 5: to put it back together again? Made by iHeartMedia. I

2456
02:24:00,240 --> 02:24:03,039
Speaker 5: am your host Nia Wong. So we have been you know,

2457
02:24:03,360 --> 02:24:05,080
Speaker 5: this is our This is going to be our first

2458
02:24:05,160 --> 02:24:08,360
Speaker 5: Union doubleheader. We have two Union episodes in a row.

2459
02:24:08,400 --> 02:24:11,440
Speaker 5: And part of why we're doing this is that we've

2460
02:24:11,440 --> 02:24:15,400
Speaker 5: we've been covering a lot of very sort of very

2461
02:24:15,440 --> 02:24:18,279
Speaker 5: fast drives, very low to the ground drives in small

2462
02:24:18,320 --> 02:24:21,600
Speaker 5: shops recently, and today we are going to be covering

2463
02:24:21,879 --> 02:24:24,560
Speaker 5: a shop that is not like that. It is very large,

2464
02:24:24,600 --> 02:24:27,080
Speaker 5: it is quite geographically diverse, and it has been organizing

2465
02:24:27,120 --> 02:24:30,600
Speaker 5: for a very long time. And that union is the

2466
02:24:30,600 --> 02:24:33,560
Speaker 5: iHeart Podcast Union. And with me to talk about this

2467
02:24:33,720 --> 02:24:38,000
Speaker 5: is Tracy Wilson from Suffie Missing History Class and Nomes Griffin,

2468
02:24:38,040 --> 02:24:44,040
Speaker 5: who is a producer on many staggeringly too many shows.

2469
02:24:45,520 --> 02:24:48,360
Speaker 5: And yeah, they are both on the bargaining committee of

2470
02:24:48,360 --> 02:24:51,520
Speaker 5: the Aheart Podcast Union. So yeah, Tracy Nomes, welcome to

2471
02:24:51,520 --> 02:24:51,880
Speaker 5: the show.

2472
02:24:52,320 --> 02:24:56,800
Speaker 8: No, thank you, We're glad to be here.

2473
02:24:57,400 --> 02:24:59,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to talk to you too.

2474
02:24:59,440 --> 02:25:03,240
Speaker 5: So all right, first thing, first thing about this iHeart

2475
02:25:03,280 --> 02:25:08,440
Speaker 5: Podcast Union. We haven't covered many media unions on this podcast.

2476
02:25:08,959 --> 02:25:11,520
Speaker 5: We probably should do more, but it's been a sort

2477
02:25:11,560 --> 02:25:15,160
Speaker 5: of product of of what kind I don't know that

2478
02:25:15,600 --> 02:25:17,240
Speaker 5: there's certain there are certain kinds of stuff that we've

2479
02:25:17,240 --> 02:25:19,800
Speaker 5: been focusing on. But now now we're doing media unions.

2480
02:25:20,240 --> 02:25:22,959
Speaker 5: So the place I wanted to start talking about the

2481
02:25:22,959 --> 02:25:26,959
Speaker 5: iHeart Podcast Union is the sort of scale of it.

2482
02:25:27,080 --> 02:25:30,119
Speaker 5: I mean, there's people everywhere like there are there are

2483
02:25:30,160 --> 02:25:32,840
Speaker 5: there are people who are where, there's one union member

2484
02:25:32,879 --> 02:25:35,840
Speaker 5: in the entire city, so you know, can we And

2485
02:25:35,920 --> 02:25:38,480
Speaker 5: it's also been going on for a very very long time,

2486
02:25:38,600 --> 02:25:40,840
Speaker 5: so I wanted to sort of ask, can you talk

2487
02:25:40,840 --> 02:25:43,080
Speaker 5: about how this whole process started and kind of how

2488
02:25:43,120 --> 02:25:44,240
Speaker 5: long it's been going on.

2489
02:25:44,959 --> 02:25:49,520
Speaker 8: So long, so long. I was scrolling through my phone

2490
02:25:49,560 --> 02:25:53,640
Speaker 8: today trying to remember when when was the first time

2491
02:25:54,040 --> 02:25:58,320
Speaker 8: that I was contacted about unionizing, because the first thing

2492
02:25:58,320 --> 02:26:01,600
Speaker 8: that happened for me was being organ into the union

2493
02:26:02,640 --> 02:26:06,520
Speaker 8: before I Heart recognized us, and that was in the

2494
02:26:06,720 --> 02:26:12,640
Speaker 8: fall of twenty twenty. The fall of twenty twenty, I

2495
02:26:12,680 --> 02:26:15,160
Speaker 8: got a text from my friend Lauren that was like,

2496
02:26:15,240 --> 02:26:17,040
Speaker 8: can I talk to you about a kind of a

2497
02:26:17,080 --> 02:26:21,240
Speaker 8: work thing. It's a kind of work and I said sure.

2498
02:26:21,480 --> 02:26:25,240
Speaker 8: And the question that Lauren had to ask me was

2499
02:26:26,080 --> 02:26:28,440
Speaker 8: some of us are talking about unionizing. How would you

2500
02:26:28,440 --> 02:26:32,160
Speaker 8: feel about that? And I said, Okay, I need to

2501
02:26:32,520 --> 02:26:35,320
Speaker 8: check my agreement that I already have with iHeart because

2502
02:26:35,360 --> 02:26:37,440
Speaker 8: a lot of us that I have individual agreements with

2503
02:26:37,440 --> 02:26:40,959
Speaker 8: the company. I have worked in the job that I

2504
02:26:41,000 --> 02:26:44,120
Speaker 8: have now in some capacity for almost nineteen years, so

2505
02:26:44,160 --> 02:26:46,160
Speaker 8: I've been here forever and I already had this. I

2506
02:26:46,200 --> 02:26:47,840
Speaker 8: was like, I need to find out does this agreement

2507
02:26:47,879 --> 02:26:51,080
Speaker 8: prohibit me from doing this? It did not, and so

2508
02:26:51,160 --> 02:26:53,560
Speaker 8: I said, all right, if I'm eligible to be in

2509
02:26:53,600 --> 02:26:56,400
Speaker 8: the union, I'm on board. If I'm not eligible to

2510
02:26:56,400 --> 02:26:58,240
Speaker 8: be in the union, you have my full support. And

2511
02:26:58,240 --> 02:27:02,840
Speaker 8: that was in like November of twenty twenty, which is

2512
02:27:03,040 --> 02:27:05,959
Speaker 8: eons ago at this point.

2513
02:27:07,040 --> 02:27:10,400
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's been I came on to the company and

2514
02:27:10,800 --> 02:27:14,760
Speaker 10: the union was already in negotiations, Like, yeah.

2515
02:27:14,520 --> 02:27:15,960
Speaker 14: It had been a union already.

2516
02:27:16,040 --> 02:27:19,039
Speaker 10: I started in January of twenty twenty three, and I

2517
02:27:19,080 --> 02:27:22,720
Speaker 10: came like straight into the we're in bargaining sessions process.

2518
02:27:22,959 --> 02:27:28,200
Speaker 8: Yeah. So the organizing process took definitely more than a year.

2519
02:27:28,800 --> 02:27:31,680
Speaker 8: And that was more than a year of people talking

2520
02:27:31,680 --> 02:27:34,600
Speaker 8: to all of their colleagues about whether they wanted to

2521
02:27:34,640 --> 02:27:36,920
Speaker 8: form a union, what would be the benefits of forming

2522
02:27:37,120 --> 02:27:40,000
Speaker 8: a union, all of that stuff. And so we have

2523
02:27:40,160 --> 02:27:44,560
Speaker 8: three main offices at iHeart, there's New York, LA and Atlanta.

2524
02:27:45,040 --> 02:27:47,360
Speaker 8: So there were people who were doing things on the

2525
02:27:47,360 --> 02:27:50,240
Speaker 8: ground with people locally to them. But then also I

2526
02:27:50,280 --> 02:27:52,440
Speaker 8: think it's something like a third of our unit is

2527
02:27:52,480 --> 02:27:54,640
Speaker 8: not actually local to one of these offices. I'm not

2528
02:27:54,720 --> 02:27:57,240
Speaker 8: local to an office. I live north of Boston, we

2529
02:27:57,320 --> 02:28:00,000
Speaker 8: have like three unit members and the entire Commonwealth the message.

2530
02:28:00,879 --> 02:28:03,040
Speaker 8: So this is like a really long process of getting

2531
02:28:03,080 --> 02:28:06,039
Speaker 8: everybody on board and getting everybody to commit to saying

2532
02:28:06,080 --> 02:28:08,280
Speaker 8: they wanted to be in the union, and then eventually

2533
02:28:08,280 --> 02:28:12,280
Speaker 8: to sign union cards after all of that, that took

2534
02:28:12,360 --> 02:28:15,600
Speaker 8: more than a year. We informed management of our intent

2535
02:28:15,680 --> 02:28:18,520
Speaker 8: to unionize in December of twenty twenty one, and they

2536
02:28:18,600 --> 02:28:21,400
Speaker 8: recognized us about six weeks later, in February of twenty

2537
02:28:21,440 --> 02:28:24,240
Speaker 8: twenty two. That took longer than we would have wanted.

2538
02:28:24,280 --> 02:28:26,560
Speaker 8: There was some back and forth about exactly what roles

2539
02:28:26,600 --> 02:28:30,119
Speaker 8: would be included in the union, and then also the

2540
02:28:30,360 --> 02:28:32,879
Speaker 8: winter holidays happened in the middle of that, which, like

2541
02:28:32,920 --> 02:28:35,640
Speaker 8: those weeks don't exist for business purposes in a lot

2542
02:28:35,640 --> 02:28:38,080
Speaker 8: of ways. We still got to do podcasts for them,

2543
02:28:39,480 --> 02:28:43,040
Speaker 8: but nobody's at work, and so, you know, we were

2544
02:28:43,080 --> 02:28:47,200
Speaker 8: recognized without having to go through an election with the NLRB,

2545
02:28:47,400 --> 02:28:50,080
Speaker 8: which was great, but it did sort of feel like

2546
02:28:50,120 --> 02:28:53,040
Speaker 8: it took a little bit to finally get the recognition.

2547
02:28:53,080 --> 02:28:57,280
Speaker 8: And then we started bargaining in May, so a couple

2548
02:28:57,320 --> 02:28:59,959
Speaker 8: of months after that, and that was two years ago

2549
02:29:00,200 --> 02:29:01,280
Speaker 8: that we started bargaining.

2550
02:29:02,320 --> 02:29:02,720
Speaker 13: Oh, my god.

2551
02:29:02,800 --> 02:29:04,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's May now, it may.

2552
02:29:05,240 --> 02:29:07,000
Speaker 8: It is almost June today.

2553
02:29:07,720 --> 02:29:09,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2554
02:29:09,800 --> 02:29:10,000
Speaker 11: Yeah.

2555
02:29:10,000 --> 02:29:13,920
Speaker 5: It has been a really quite long bargaining process, which

2556
02:29:13,920 --> 02:29:15,440
Speaker 5: I think, I mean, this is something we've talked about

2557
02:29:15,440 --> 02:29:17,680
Speaker 5: on the show before that this is a pretty This

2558
02:29:17,760 --> 02:29:20,120
Speaker 5: is a thing that happens a lot for especially for

2559
02:29:20,200 --> 02:29:23,440
Speaker 5: first contracts, is that companies will try to sort of

2560
02:29:23,480 --> 02:29:26,160
Speaker 5: just weight the union out and try to because you know,

2561
02:29:26,200 --> 02:29:28,640
Speaker 5: the if if you look at like the places where

2562
02:29:28,720 --> 02:29:33,080
Speaker 5: unions fail, it's they either fail in sort of like

2563
02:29:33,879 --> 02:29:36,879
Speaker 5: they okay, there's there's there's the failures where like nothing

2564
02:29:36,879 --> 02:29:40,360
Speaker 5: ever gets started. There's the failures where they lose they

2565
02:29:40,440 --> 02:29:42,760
Speaker 5: lose an election, or they don't have enough people to

2566
02:29:42,920 --> 02:29:45,920
Speaker 5: sign cards. And then the third place that they fail

2567
02:29:46,000 --> 02:29:49,800
Speaker 5: is contract, is the first contract. And so this is

2568
02:29:50,160 --> 02:29:54,560
Speaker 5: you know, a situation that I guess is not unexpected,

2569
02:29:54,560 --> 02:29:59,440
Speaker 5: but is also negotiating a contract for two years just

2570
02:30:00,160 --> 02:30:01,119
Speaker 5: is not very fun.

2571
02:30:02,480 --> 02:30:04,680
Speaker 14: Yeah, no, it's not.

2572
02:30:05,600 --> 02:30:09,520
Speaker 8: Our colleagues at WGAE, when we got ready to start bargaining,

2573
02:30:10,640 --> 02:30:13,039
Speaker 8: tried to prepare us for the fact that eighteen months

2574
02:30:13,040 --> 02:30:16,120
Speaker 8: to two years is fairly normal in the world of

2575
02:30:16,200 --> 02:30:21,000
Speaker 8: media to bargain a first contract. I will readily acknowledge

2576
02:30:21,080 --> 02:30:25,680
Speaker 8: that I was overly optimistic when we started. I would

2577
02:30:25,760 --> 02:30:28,400
Speaker 8: not go so far as to say naive, but like

2578
02:30:28,440 --> 02:30:30,800
Speaker 8: I thought it was a really good sign that the

2579
02:30:30,800 --> 02:30:34,480
Speaker 8: company had voluntarily recognized US. I thought it was a

2580
02:30:34,480 --> 02:30:39,120
Speaker 8: really good sign that WGAE had successfully negotiated other contracts

2581
02:30:39,160 --> 02:30:41,119
Speaker 8: and that we were sort of drawing from a lot

2582
02:30:41,160 --> 02:30:43,920
Speaker 8: of that. Contract language is our starting point, and I

2583
02:30:43,959 --> 02:30:47,440
Speaker 8: feel like when you have all of the unionized podcast

2584
02:30:47,520 --> 02:30:51,840
Speaker 8: shops having similar language to me, that language is now

2585
02:30:51,920 --> 02:30:55,720
Speaker 8: becoming industry standard. So I expected less of a fight

2586
02:30:55,879 --> 02:30:58,320
Speaker 8: over a lot of that than what we actually got.

2587
02:30:58,720 --> 02:31:02,640
Speaker 8: And then also management hired an attorney that has negotiated

2588
02:31:02,640 --> 02:31:04,960
Speaker 8: a lot of other contracts with WGA. Was just all

2589
02:31:05,000 --> 02:31:08,880
Speaker 8: stuff that I thought was seemed favorable. And then when

2590
02:31:08,879 --> 02:31:13,119
Speaker 8: we actually got into the bargaining process, it has gone

2591
02:31:13,200 --> 02:31:15,160
Speaker 8: on for so long and there have been so many

2592
02:31:15,200 --> 02:31:17,440
Speaker 8: things that it has felt like we're just going around

2593
02:31:17,440 --> 02:31:18,600
Speaker 8: in circles at the table.

2594
02:31:19,520 --> 02:31:23,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, So before we get into kind of what issues

2595
02:31:23,040 --> 02:31:25,840
Speaker 5: are being circled around and what management has been doing,

2596
02:31:25,920 --> 02:31:29,520
Speaker 5: I wanted to talk about what bargaining a contract is

2597
02:31:29,520 --> 02:31:31,560
Speaker 5: actually like, because I think most of the people listening

2598
02:31:31,560 --> 02:31:34,160
Speaker 5: to this have never done it and only kind of

2599
02:31:34,200 --> 02:31:36,720
Speaker 5: have a vague idea of what that means. So can

2600
02:31:36,760 --> 02:31:39,760
Speaker 5: you sort of walk us through the I don't know.

2601
02:31:39,920 --> 02:31:42,840
Speaker 5: So there's a week that has a bargaining session, can

2602
02:31:42,879 --> 02:31:45,080
Speaker 5: you walk through the process of what goes into that.

2603
02:31:45,920 --> 02:31:46,960
Speaker 14: Yeah, definitely.

2604
02:31:47,400 --> 02:31:50,039
Speaker 10: So in a week where we might have a bargaining session,

2605
02:31:50,080 --> 02:31:53,359
Speaker 10: say we have a bargaining session on Wednesday and Thursday,

2606
02:31:54,000 --> 02:31:57,800
Speaker 10: as a committee will meet probably the Monday the tuesday

2607
02:31:58,000 --> 02:32:02,920
Speaker 10: to prepare whatever our counter proposals will be. So whether

2608
02:32:03,000 --> 02:32:05,600
Speaker 10: or not that's on economics. So we're getting back and

2609
02:32:05,600 --> 02:32:08,160
Speaker 10: we're adjusting our salary proposals that are going to go

2610
02:32:08,200 --> 02:32:12,280
Speaker 10: across the table, or we're adjusting what we're asking for

2611
02:32:12,680 --> 02:32:15,680
Speaker 10: in severance, how many weeks of severance we're asking for.

2612
02:32:15,840 --> 02:32:18,680
Speaker 10: So we'll spend some time as a committee going through

2613
02:32:18,720 --> 02:32:23,080
Speaker 10: those proposals and basing our decisions off of like, this

2614
02:32:23,120 --> 02:32:26,120
Speaker 10: is where we have an intention of landing, this is

2615
02:32:26,120 --> 02:32:28,840
Speaker 10: where management is right now, this is what in our

2616
02:32:28,879 --> 02:32:33,360
Speaker 10: conversations with the other unit members we've figured out is

2617
02:32:33,440 --> 02:32:35,640
Speaker 10: most important to people, So we'll.

2618
02:32:35,440 --> 02:32:36,960
Speaker 14: Make counters based on that.

2619
02:32:37,840 --> 02:32:41,200
Speaker 10: Lately, our sessions have those sessions have looked like preparing

2620
02:32:41,320 --> 02:32:44,959
Speaker 10: to who in the committee is going to be presenting

2621
02:32:45,000 --> 02:32:48,879
Speaker 10: that contract language across the table, so we'll divvy up

2622
02:32:48,920 --> 02:32:52,320
Speaker 10: those presentations and Tracy might present on diversity, I might

2623
02:32:52,360 --> 02:32:56,039
Speaker 10: present about the salary minimums. We might have another committee

2624
02:32:56,040 --> 02:32:59,680
Speaker 10: member present on severance and things like that, so well

2625
02:33:00,080 --> 02:33:02,160
Speaker 10: sort out who is going to say what, and we'll

2626
02:33:02,200 --> 02:33:05,480
Speaker 10: also plan out any other sort of editorializing that we're

2627
02:33:05,520 --> 02:33:07,800
Speaker 10: going to do across the table, like this is why

2628
02:33:07,879 --> 02:33:12,600
Speaker 10: we're making a move here, because it's important to our unit.

2629
02:33:12,760 --> 02:33:17,240
Speaker 10: For this reason, we've also planned out actions that we're

2630
02:33:17,240 --> 02:33:20,040
Speaker 10: going to do across the table and having unit members

2631
02:33:20,120 --> 02:33:23,920
Speaker 10: read testimonials about certain contract items.

2632
02:33:24,120 --> 02:33:25,320
Speaker 14: So those are all of the.

2633
02:33:25,280 --> 02:33:30,080
Speaker 10: Things that we might prepare for ahead of the bargaining session.

2634
02:33:30,400 --> 02:33:34,320
Speaker 10: And then on the actual day of bargaining session, we'll

2635
02:33:34,360 --> 02:33:37,240
Speaker 10: go in and we'll meet as a committee in the morning.

2636
02:33:37,720 --> 02:33:41,480
Speaker 10: We're either presenting first our proposals or management is presenting

2637
02:33:41,520 --> 02:33:45,400
Speaker 10: to us. As a bargaining committee will be there to

2638
02:33:45,440 --> 02:33:48,039
Speaker 10: hear the proposals. There may be some sessions that are

2639
02:33:48,080 --> 02:33:50,760
Speaker 10: more important than others, so we'll invite the whole unit

2640
02:33:50,840 --> 02:33:54,760
Speaker 10: to hear those proposals, and we will over those two

2641
02:33:54,840 --> 02:33:57,760
Speaker 10: days sort of go back and forth, presenting across the

2642
02:33:57,800 --> 02:34:01,400
Speaker 10: table what our proposals are and the counter propose and

2643
02:34:02,080 --> 02:34:05,160
Speaker 10: with the idea of like getting closer to a contract

2644
02:34:05,200 --> 02:34:09,000
Speaker 10: that is fair and like Tracy said earlier, industry standard.

2645
02:34:09,560 --> 02:34:10,360
Speaker 8: That sums it up.

2646
02:34:11,040 --> 02:34:13,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I guess this leads us to the second

2647
02:34:13,760 --> 02:34:21,480
Speaker 5: part of contract negotiations, which is management's counterproposals. So, you

2648
02:34:21,480 --> 02:34:26,440
Speaker 5: know something, something I think is kind of surprising when

2649
02:34:26,520 --> 02:34:28,080
Speaker 5: when when you do this for the first time, is

2650
02:34:28,120 --> 02:34:30,280
Speaker 5: the extent to which management simply will not show up

2651
02:34:30,280 --> 02:34:30,680
Speaker 5: on time?

2652
02:34:33,520 --> 02:34:35,240
Speaker 14: Yeah?

2653
02:34:35,360 --> 02:34:37,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, So how has it actually been sitting across the

2654
02:34:37,920 --> 02:34:41,760
Speaker 5: table from management and you know, hearing their counter proposals

2655
02:34:41,920 --> 02:34:44,879
Speaker 5: and dealing with whenever they show up.

2656
02:34:47,400 --> 02:34:50,840
Speaker 8: Uh, all of my bargaining so far has been happening

2657
02:34:50,879 --> 02:34:54,920
Speaker 8: on the other side of a zoom or a team's screen.

2658
02:34:55,600 --> 02:35:00,720
Speaker 8: Since I'm remote to everybody else, which is a blessing curse, right,

2659
02:35:00,800 --> 02:35:03,400
Speaker 8: I have kind of a buffer. I'm not having to

2660
02:35:03,480 --> 02:35:05,879
Speaker 8: directly look at the faces of the people who are

2661
02:35:06,520 --> 02:35:09,960
Speaker 8: coming in with salary proposals that are dramatically less than

2662
02:35:10,040 --> 02:35:13,400
Speaker 8: what we proposed and what we feel as industry standard

2663
02:35:13,400 --> 02:35:16,279
Speaker 8: at this point. But it also means that like I'm

2664
02:35:16,840 --> 02:35:20,080
Speaker 8: by myself. I don't have somebody near me to when

2665
02:35:20,240 --> 02:35:25,880
Speaker 8: like management leaves the room personally react with we got

2666
02:35:25,920 --> 02:35:28,640
Speaker 8: to go around the circle in the whoever's in the

2667
02:35:28,720 --> 02:35:32,240
Speaker 8: room and on the screen to sort of say our reactions.

2668
02:35:32,720 --> 02:35:36,879
Speaker 8: But like it's it's lonely sometimes to do it from afar.

2669
02:35:37,560 --> 02:35:41,720
Speaker 8: I do definitely have to practice keeping my expression neutral

2670
02:35:41,879 --> 02:35:47,800
Speaker 8: because sometimes what we are hearing is not neutral expression territory.

2671
02:35:48,720 --> 02:35:54,040
Speaker 8: And I also really was not totally prepared to hear

2672
02:35:54,160 --> 02:35:58,880
Speaker 8: management justify their positions on things like I will feel

2673
02:35:58,920 --> 02:36:02,039
Speaker 8: strongly that the correct and most ethical thing to do

2674
02:36:02,200 --> 02:36:06,480
Speaker 8: is a particular thing, and then management will explain their

2675
02:36:06,480 --> 02:36:09,400
Speaker 8: position on something and I'll sort of be like, that's

2676
02:36:10,120 --> 02:36:11,959
Speaker 8: that's not the decision I would like you to be

2677
02:36:12,040 --> 02:36:15,320
Speaker 8: making at all. And I'm a little upset that I

2678
02:36:15,480 --> 02:36:17,080
Speaker 8: just heard you say that just now.

2679
02:36:18,440 --> 02:36:21,920
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, And I'm in Atlanta, So most of our

2680
02:36:21,959 --> 02:36:25,560
Speaker 10: bargaining sessions have happened in Atlanta. We have also have

2681
02:36:25,680 --> 02:36:28,080
Speaker 10: them in New york Er or le but so I

2682
02:36:28,120 --> 02:36:31,160
Speaker 10: have been in person for most of the sitting down

2683
02:36:31,240 --> 02:36:34,640
Speaker 10: across for management and like waiting a few hours after

2684
02:36:34,720 --> 02:36:38,359
Speaker 10: when they said they would be ready to present their proposals,

2685
02:36:38,800 --> 02:36:43,560
Speaker 10: and it is like tense and frustrating to sit in that,

2686
02:36:43,879 --> 02:36:47,039
Speaker 10: and to Tracy's point, like, it is nice that we

2687
02:36:47,160 --> 02:36:51,039
Speaker 10: have the rest of the committee with us to or

2688
02:36:51,200 --> 02:36:53,880
Speaker 10: whoever's in Atlanta with us to sort of share in

2689
02:36:53,920 --> 02:36:58,359
Speaker 10: that together. But the energy does get really tense at times,

2690
02:36:58,520 --> 02:37:02,879
Speaker 10: especially in those situations where we've presented, hey, we would like,

2691
02:37:03,520 --> 02:37:06,800
Speaker 10: however many days of bereavement leave so we can grieve

2692
02:37:06,879 --> 02:37:10,520
Speaker 10: our family members, and then management comes back with an

2693
02:37:10,560 --> 02:37:11,279
Speaker 10: offer that's.

2694
02:37:11,120 --> 02:37:13,760
Speaker 14: Like, well, what about just a couple of days to.

2695
02:37:13,800 --> 02:37:17,640
Speaker 10: Grieve your dead family member? And so in those situations

2696
02:37:17,640 --> 02:37:20,080
Speaker 10: where it's like, do you think of me as a

2697
02:37:20,080 --> 02:37:25,640
Speaker 10: fellow human being deserving of these like very basic things

2698
02:37:25,680 --> 02:37:28,160
Speaker 10: to make my life livable.

2699
02:37:28,560 --> 02:37:31,160
Speaker 14: And then their answer sort of feels like a no.

2700
02:37:31,240 --> 02:37:32,880
Speaker 10: And you kind of just have to like sit in

2701
02:37:32,920 --> 02:37:35,400
Speaker 10: that in person while they say it to your face.

2702
02:37:37,360 --> 02:37:40,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I mean, especially when it's something that personal

2703
02:37:41,040 --> 02:37:43,400
Speaker 5: or it's that or if it's something that parental leave

2704
02:37:44,360 --> 02:37:48,640
Speaker 5: where you know this is your child, right, and yeah,

2705
02:37:48,760 --> 02:37:51,600
Speaker 5: you're sitting across a table from someone being like, oh, yeah, no,

2706
02:37:51,720 --> 02:37:56,080
Speaker 5: you actually you should get like two days to deal

2707
02:37:56,120 --> 02:38:00,840
Speaker 5: with this. It's just really brutal we had.

2708
02:38:01,000 --> 02:38:03,279
Speaker 8: It was a few months ago. We had a session

2709
02:38:03,320 --> 02:38:06,880
Speaker 8: where we had a lot of testimonials that were accompanying

2710
02:38:06,920 --> 02:38:11,039
Speaker 8: our actual contract proposals, and some of them were read

2711
02:38:11,080 --> 02:38:13,800
Speaker 8: by the person who had written the testimonial, and some

2712
02:38:13,879 --> 02:38:16,680
Speaker 8: of them were read by a different bargaining committee member

2713
02:38:16,680 --> 02:38:19,840
Speaker 8: because somebody was just more comfortable remaining anonymous and having

2714
02:38:19,840 --> 02:38:24,200
Speaker 8: somebody do that for them. And we had testimonials that

2715
02:38:24,240 --> 02:38:26,200
Speaker 8: were all over the map in terms of things that

2716
02:38:26,240 --> 02:38:28,200
Speaker 8: we were still in the process of bargaining, So we

2717
02:38:28,240 --> 02:38:32,160
Speaker 8: had diversity testimonials, we had testimonials about parental leave, all

2718
02:38:32,200 --> 02:38:35,240
Speaker 8: of this stuff. And one of the things that wound

2719
02:38:35,280 --> 02:38:38,959
Speaker 8: up being just enormously frustrating was that it felt like

2720
02:38:39,040 --> 02:38:42,440
Speaker 8: we went through all that and we presented so many

2721
02:38:42,440 --> 02:38:45,080
Speaker 8: things about why this matters so much to all of us,

2722
02:38:45,680 --> 02:38:48,120
Speaker 8: and the next round of counter proposals that we got

2723
02:38:48,160 --> 02:38:52,600
Speaker 8: were like the same negligible movements as from before we

2724
02:38:52,680 --> 02:38:56,720
Speaker 8: had all read all of the testimonials. And that was

2725
02:38:56,800 --> 02:38:59,240
Speaker 8: not my favorite day of bargaining by far.

2726
02:39:00,240 --> 02:39:03,560
Speaker 14: No, Yeah, that one was not not fun to be

2727
02:39:03,680 --> 02:39:04,040
Speaker 14: in on.

2728
02:39:15,040 --> 02:39:17,640
Speaker 5: And we are back, so, I mean, we've talked a

2729
02:39:17,640 --> 02:39:21,959
Speaker 5: little bit about kind of belief stuff, and you know,

2730
02:39:22,120 --> 02:39:24,160
Speaker 5: something like we've talked a little bit about some of

2731
02:39:24,160 --> 02:39:29,119
Speaker 5: the issues that have been stuck in negotiations for two years,

2732
02:39:29,200 --> 02:39:32,959
Speaker 5: but yeah, I wanted to sort of see, you know,

2733
02:39:33,040 --> 02:39:37,320
Speaker 5: talk talk about sort of the specifics of where of

2734
02:39:37,400 --> 02:39:40,520
Speaker 5: where the contract negotiations are right now, and how far

2735
02:39:40,600 --> 02:39:44,000
Speaker 5: apart the company and the union is and also just

2736
02:39:44,520 --> 02:39:46,000
Speaker 5: and this is something that I think has been a

2737
02:39:46,040 --> 02:39:51,960
Speaker 5: theme of these negotiations is the extent to which management

2738
02:39:52,560 --> 02:39:57,400
Speaker 5: is below industry standard. So yeah, I guess we could

2739
02:39:57,400 --> 02:40:00,520
Speaker 5: start with sort of wages there because of one of

2740
02:40:00,520 --> 02:40:03,000
Speaker 5: the places where they're very much below standard.

2741
02:40:04,120 --> 02:40:06,560
Speaker 10: Yeah, I think we only have a TA on one

2742
02:40:07,320 --> 02:40:13,000
Speaker 10: a TA being a tentative agreement on one title and

2743
02:40:13,080 --> 02:40:16,560
Speaker 10: only for the rate that they're proposing in New York

2744
02:40:16,600 --> 02:40:19,440
Speaker 10: City in LA. Another big thing with our minimums is

2745
02:40:19,440 --> 02:40:23,600
Speaker 10: that they're different for producers and other titles living in

2746
02:40:23,600 --> 02:40:26,279
Speaker 10: New York City in LA than they are for people

2747
02:40:26,879 --> 02:40:30,160
Speaker 10: in those roles in other cities. So yeah, we are

2748
02:40:31,280 --> 02:40:36,360
Speaker 10: very far apart still on our salary minimums.

2749
02:40:37,080 --> 02:40:40,520
Speaker 8: Yeah, when we put together our proposals on salary minimums, like,

2750
02:40:40,560 --> 02:40:42,720
Speaker 8: we didn't make them up out of nowhere. We did

2751
02:40:42,720 --> 02:40:45,560
Speaker 8: a lot of research on pay rates at other unionized

2752
02:40:45,600 --> 02:40:49,280
Speaker 8: podcast shops and other podcast businesses. We came up with

2753
02:40:49,360 --> 02:40:52,360
Speaker 8: numbers that felt fair and industry standard based on all

2754
02:40:52,400 --> 02:40:56,280
Speaker 8: of that research, and then management just came in so

2755
02:40:56,440 --> 02:40:59,800
Speaker 8: much lower than all that. And then as Noomes just said,

2756
02:40:59,800 --> 02:41:03,080
Speaker 8: there's this differential they're proposing between New York and LA

2757
02:41:03,400 --> 02:41:07,200
Speaker 8: and everywhere else. Most of our unit is not in

2758
02:41:07,320 --> 02:41:09,680
Speaker 8: New York or LA. A big chunk of the unit

2759
02:41:09,879 --> 02:41:12,920
Speaker 8: is in Atlanta specifically, and the cost of living in

2760
02:41:12,959 --> 02:41:16,640
Speaker 8: Atlanta is just not that much lower than New York

2761
02:41:16,720 --> 02:41:19,920
Speaker 8: or LA. At this point. We've also been way apart

2762
02:41:19,959 --> 02:41:24,360
Speaker 8: on annual increases. Originally management was proposing not to have

2763
02:41:24,440 --> 02:41:28,120
Speaker 8: annual increases in the contract at all, and they've moved

2764
02:41:28,160 --> 02:41:30,840
Speaker 8: past that, but the current proposals are still way way

2765
02:41:30,959 --> 02:41:32,840
Speaker 8: less than the rate of inflation.

2766
02:41:33,440 --> 02:41:38,320
Speaker 10: I mean, it's about half, like half of what inflation is. Yeah,

2767
02:41:38,360 --> 02:41:41,160
Speaker 10: like it does, it's not even inflation amount. And I

2768
02:41:41,240 --> 02:41:44,280
Speaker 10: will say that like for many of the job titles,

2769
02:41:44,760 --> 02:41:49,080
Speaker 10: they're so far below what industry standard is. With the

2770
02:41:49,200 --> 02:41:52,760
Speaker 10: like very little incremental movement that they make every bargaining session,

2771
02:41:52,840 --> 02:41:56,439
Speaker 10: it's clear that they the company doesn't have any interest

2772
02:41:56,480 --> 02:42:00,240
Speaker 10: in getting the industry standard despite the fact that it

2773
02:42:00,280 --> 02:42:05,879
Speaker 10: is like a large and well ranked podcasting company.

2774
02:42:06,520 --> 02:42:12,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, we just got the Webby Award as Podcast

2775
02:42:12,760 --> 02:42:17,440
Speaker 8: Company of the Year, and we continue to be like

2776
02:42:17,480 --> 02:42:21,760
Speaker 8: when rankings come out of the biggest podcast networks, like

2777
02:42:21,800 --> 02:42:27,119
Speaker 8: we're always at or right near the top of the rankings.

2778
02:42:27,160 --> 02:42:29,800
Speaker 8: All of that, we have a lot of shows that

2779
02:42:29,840 --> 02:42:35,360
Speaker 8: are really well respected in you know, whatever subject matter

2780
02:42:35,520 --> 02:42:40,680
Speaker 8: they are discussing, whatever broadly speaking genre of podcasts, and

2781
02:42:40,720 --> 02:42:46,040
Speaker 8: so it sucks to then look at pay scales that

2782
02:42:46,320 --> 02:42:50,240
Speaker 8: just don't line up with that in terms of like

2783
02:42:50,320 --> 02:42:54,480
Speaker 8: the minimum of what the company will commit to offering people.

2784
02:42:55,760 --> 02:42:57,959
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think the person to increased thing is

2785
02:42:57,959 --> 02:43:01,520
Speaker 5: really frustrating too, because again, the way this works out

2786
02:43:01,560 --> 02:43:03,800
Speaker 5: with inflation. And remember that, so you know, if we

2787
02:43:03,879 --> 02:43:07,360
Speaker 5: started bargaining in twenty twenty two, right, inflation in twenty

2788
02:43:07,400 --> 02:43:10,440
Speaker 5: twenty two was like three like twice what it is now.

2789
02:43:11,640 --> 02:43:13,640
Speaker 5: And if if you're getting, if you're not getting this

2790
02:43:13,680 --> 02:43:16,000
Speaker 5: is something I think that's important for everyone to understand,

2791
02:43:16,040 --> 02:43:17,920
Speaker 5: is that if you're not getting so for inflation right

2792
02:43:17,920 --> 02:43:19,680
Speaker 5: now is about three point four percent, If you're not

2793
02:43:19,720 --> 02:43:22,600
Speaker 5: getting a three point four percent pay increase this year.

2794
02:43:22,640 --> 02:43:25,160
Speaker 5: That means you you you are taking a pay cut

2795
02:43:25,320 --> 02:43:30,120
Speaker 5: every single year, right, And the fact that you know

2796
02:43:30,200 --> 02:43:33,480
Speaker 5: this is this is what my management's proposal is, you

2797
02:43:33,520 --> 02:43:36,840
Speaker 5: take a pay cut every single year and you're supposed

2798
02:43:36,840 --> 02:43:41,240
Speaker 5: to be fine with this is incredibly frustrating. And I

2799
02:43:41,520 --> 02:43:44,000
Speaker 5: don't I don't think it's it's it's it's not really

2800
02:43:45,840 --> 02:43:49,000
Speaker 5: understood in in terms of you're literally taking a pay

2801
02:43:49,000 --> 02:43:51,960
Speaker 5: cut very much. It's just talked of like it's it's, it's,

2802
02:43:52,000 --> 02:43:55,039
Speaker 5: it's it's something that's talked about. Is just like another benefit.

2803
02:43:55,080 --> 02:43:57,840
Speaker 5: But like, no, we're trying not to take a pay cut.

2804
02:43:58,080 --> 02:44:01,800
Speaker 10: But yeah, yeah, I like to if my salary is

2805
02:44:01,840 --> 02:44:05,400
Speaker 10: going to not take me any further at least not

2806
02:44:05,520 --> 02:44:07,400
Speaker 10: take me any farther back.

2807
02:44:07,720 --> 02:44:08,879
Speaker 14: Yeah, I don't need to.

2808
02:44:08,840 --> 02:44:12,800
Speaker 10: Lose money every year like I've done this year in

2809
02:44:13,000 --> 02:44:14,600
Speaker 10: starting my second year at the company.

2810
02:44:14,800 --> 02:44:17,840
Speaker 8: Right, there's been a lot of people who have not

2811
02:44:18,040 --> 02:44:24,360
Speaker 8: had a raise since like before the pandemic started, and like,

2812
02:44:24,440 --> 02:44:28,240
Speaker 8: I'm incredibly lucky. I have been at my job forever.

2813
02:44:28,480 --> 02:44:30,360
Speaker 8: I'm on one of the biggest shows that we have

2814
02:44:30,440 --> 02:44:36,320
Speaker 8: in the network. Like I'm doing okay, right, but a

2815
02:44:36,320 --> 02:44:40,040
Speaker 8: lot of my colleagues who work on shows that don't

2816
02:44:40,080 --> 02:44:43,760
Speaker 8: have as much power, don't have as big of an audience, like,

2817
02:44:43,800 --> 02:44:46,280
Speaker 8: don't have as much much of an ad budget of

2818
02:44:46,480 --> 02:44:48,800
Speaker 8: people who have been with the company less time, people

2819
02:44:48,879 --> 02:44:52,560
Speaker 8: who are like earlier on in their careers, especially like

2820
02:44:52,680 --> 02:44:57,840
Speaker 8: I've watched these folks go through the last four years

2821
02:44:58,680 --> 02:45:00,959
Speaker 8: with no increase in their pay, and like, I can

2822
02:45:01,040 --> 02:45:04,520
Speaker 8: see people struggling now financially in a way that they

2823
02:45:04,560 --> 02:45:09,760
Speaker 8: weren't struggling financially in twenty nineteen because their pay has

2824
02:45:09,800 --> 02:45:12,800
Speaker 8: not changed at all, but the how much it costs

2825
02:45:12,840 --> 02:45:16,000
Speaker 8: to exist in the world is so much more expensive.

2826
02:45:18,040 --> 02:45:23,200
Speaker 10: Yeah, we have some members right now who like would

2827
02:45:23,240 --> 02:45:28,879
Speaker 10: receive a pay increase with what's being proposed currently, but

2828
02:45:29,080 --> 02:45:32,160
Speaker 10: it is nowhere near the majority. Most people are going

2829
02:45:32,200 --> 02:45:36,840
Speaker 10: to lose money with the numbers as they are right now.

2830
02:45:46,920 --> 02:45:49,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, And that's one of the things that just you know,

2831
02:45:49,560 --> 02:45:52,680
Speaker 5: I mean, and even the sort of industry standards in

2832
02:45:52,760 --> 02:45:55,760
Speaker 5: podcasting isn't great, but that's one of these things that's

2833
02:45:56,080 --> 02:45:59,000
Speaker 5: you know, very much below industry standard. And there's been

2834
02:45:59,000 --> 02:46:01,320
Speaker 5: another one of these things that I wanted to talk

2835
02:46:01,320 --> 02:46:08,480
Speaker 5: about that's kind of baffling that I think everyone involved

2836
02:46:08,520 --> 02:46:11,440
Speaker 5: thought that this would be something that there wouldn't be

2837
02:46:11,440 --> 02:46:14,000
Speaker 5: a huge fight over. But that's at will employment.

2838
02:46:14,720 --> 02:46:18,199
Speaker 4: You talk about that, Yeah, Yeah, I love too.

2839
02:46:19,600 --> 02:46:23,080
Speaker 8: So just cause employment means your employer has to have

2840
02:46:23,320 --> 02:46:28,120
Speaker 8: just cause to terminate your employment. Your employer cannot just

2841
02:46:28,160 --> 02:46:31,320
Speaker 8: do it willy nilly. And it's a core part of

2842
02:46:33,160 --> 02:46:36,160
Speaker 8: like the rights that unions bargain for is to have

2843
02:46:36,200 --> 02:46:38,920
Speaker 8: a process for somebody to be disciplined and lose their job.

2844
02:46:39,800 --> 02:46:45,600
Speaker 8: It's a very basic thing, basic union protection. And the

2845
02:46:45,640 --> 02:46:50,959
Speaker 8: management has held firm that they basically want to not

2846
02:46:51,000 --> 02:46:53,640
Speaker 8: only have at will employment standards, but like enshrine that

2847
02:46:53,680 --> 02:46:54,840
Speaker 8: in the contract.

2848
02:46:56,560 --> 02:46:58,920
Speaker 10: Yeah, meaning that they want to be able to fire

2849
02:46:59,000 --> 02:47:02,360
Speaker 10: us for any reason and at any time, regardless of

2850
02:47:02,400 --> 02:47:08,280
Speaker 10: whether or not we've done something actually warrant that loss

2851
02:47:08,280 --> 02:47:08,959
Speaker 10: of our income.

2852
02:47:10,320 --> 02:47:12,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, And that's something I think is really important that

2853
02:47:12,879 --> 02:47:15,000
Speaker 5: I don't think people think about it this way. But

2854
02:47:15,800 --> 02:47:18,119
Speaker 5: you know, both for if you're doing work that's politically

2855
02:47:18,200 --> 02:47:22,640
Speaker 5: sensitive or also if you are marginalized, that is a

2856
02:47:22,760 --> 02:47:25,440
Speaker 5: you know, not not having your boss not be able

2857
02:47:25,480 --> 02:47:28,920
Speaker 5: to fire you for literally any reason is it's a

2858
02:47:29,000 --> 02:47:31,760
Speaker 5: necessary piece of protection. And if you don't have that.

2859
02:47:31,879 --> 02:47:34,680
Speaker 5: You can have a situation where I don't know, you

2860
02:47:34,680 --> 02:47:37,360
Speaker 5: have one boss who's racist, one boss who's transphobic, and

2861
02:47:37,720 --> 02:47:41,520
Speaker 5: you know, you and everyone like you's careers are just gone.

2862
02:47:41,680 --> 02:47:45,360
Speaker 5: And without that kind of protection, you know, it's it's

2863
02:47:45,400 --> 02:47:50,280
Speaker 5: incredibly it's incredibly dangerous for like, for marginalized people to

2864
02:47:51,320 --> 02:47:53,199
Speaker 5: you know, I mean even just like to be able

2865
02:47:53,240 --> 02:47:57,040
Speaker 5: to speak up about things that are happening to you. Right, like, yes,

2866
02:47:57,080 --> 02:48:00,879
Speaker 5: like tech technically speaking, retaliation is illegal. However, come up

2867
02:48:02,160 --> 02:48:07,560
Speaker 5: see the entire history of labor in America and tell

2868
02:48:07,600 --> 02:48:09,840
Speaker 5: me whether it tell me, explain to me whether or

2869
02:48:09,879 --> 02:48:12,039
Speaker 5: not it act, it still actually happens, especially when you

2870
02:48:12,040 --> 02:48:14,800
Speaker 5: can just fire someone for some other reason or again,

2871
02:48:14,800 --> 02:48:16,880
Speaker 5: in this case, you can fire them for no reason.

2872
02:48:17,680 --> 02:48:21,039
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, And it's it's a thing that is so

2873
02:48:21,280 --> 02:48:25,560
Speaker 10: baffling because there's no union contract.

2874
02:48:25,080 --> 02:48:26,400
Speaker 14: Without just cause.

2875
02:48:26,520 --> 02:48:29,720
Speaker 10: Like there's a number of reasons why people unionize. Obviously

2876
02:48:29,720 --> 02:48:34,240
Speaker 10: we want better salaries, Obviously we want better healthcare. But

2877
02:48:34,280 --> 02:48:38,400
Speaker 10: there's you don't form a union and then still allow

2878
02:48:39,000 --> 02:48:41,920
Speaker 10: a contract that says yeah, and also though we can

2879
02:48:42,000 --> 02:48:44,480
Speaker 10: fire you at any reason, because that is sort of

2880
02:48:45,440 --> 02:48:49,200
Speaker 10: the antithesis of like what we're about here, which is

2881
02:48:49,240 --> 02:48:53,800
Speaker 10: that there's like due process and structures in place that like,

2882
02:48:53,879 --> 02:48:55,360
Speaker 10: people who provide the labor for.

2883
02:48:55,320 --> 02:48:56,640
Speaker 14: This company can't just like.

2884
02:48:58,160 --> 02:49:01,480
Speaker 10: At a moment's notice, be out out of healthcare and

2885
02:49:01,480 --> 02:49:04,520
Speaker 10: in common all of that comes with that.

2886
02:49:06,800 --> 02:49:09,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean politically like it's it. And you know,

2887
02:49:09,400 --> 02:49:11,200
Speaker 5: if you look at this as a political system, it's

2888
02:49:11,200 --> 02:49:14,240
Speaker 5: a difference between pure dictatorial rule where everything is just

2889
02:49:14,280 --> 02:49:16,920
Speaker 5: done purely by fiat right, where you know, like the

2890
02:49:17,280 --> 02:49:19,160
Speaker 5: person who rules you can do whatever they want to you,

2891
02:49:20,000 --> 02:49:22,680
Speaker 5: and there being something like a functional legal process which

2892
02:49:22,680 --> 02:49:26,440
Speaker 5: constrains the power of rulers to just sort of enact

2893
02:49:26,440 --> 02:49:29,400
Speaker 5: their will on you. And that's you know, an incredibly

2894
02:49:29,440 --> 02:49:32,520
Speaker 5: fundamental basic part of what a union is is the

2895
02:49:32,560 --> 02:49:34,000
Speaker 5: democratization of the workplace.

2896
02:49:34,480 --> 02:49:38,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, that's That's one of the things that I

2897
02:49:38,600 --> 02:49:41,080
Speaker 8: think is so important about just the right to unionize

2898
02:49:41,080 --> 02:49:43,160
Speaker 8: in general that I think a lot of people who

2899
02:49:43,400 --> 02:49:46,680
Speaker 8: have never been part of a union don't fully understand.

2900
02:49:47,440 --> 02:49:50,920
Speaker 8: I'm basing some of this based on comments I continually

2901
02:49:50,959 --> 02:49:54,560
Speaker 8: see on ARII ads, which I am served all the

2902
02:49:54,600 --> 02:49:58,320
Speaker 8: time as a person who hikes a lot, because currently

2903
02:49:58,440 --> 02:50:01,480
Speaker 8: their comments on their ads are a whole lot of

2904
02:50:01,520 --> 02:50:04,720
Speaker 8: people saying, stop union investing ARII. And then there are

2905
02:50:04,720 --> 02:50:06,920
Speaker 8: always people who are like, it's retail. If you don't

2906
02:50:06,959 --> 02:50:09,400
Speaker 8: like it, get a better job, or they're saying something

2907
02:50:09,440 --> 02:50:12,119
Speaker 8: like ARII has always voted one of the greatest employers,

2908
02:50:12,160 --> 02:50:14,400
Speaker 8: Like you should just be thankful for what you have,

2909
02:50:15,080 --> 02:50:18,760
Speaker 8: And I'm like, the thing is, though, an employer has

2910
02:50:18,840 --> 02:50:22,800
Speaker 8: so much more power than an individual employee. Your employer

2911
02:50:22,920 --> 02:50:26,320
Speaker 8: has a whole HR structure and lawyers and way more

2912
02:50:26,400 --> 02:50:30,560
Speaker 8: money than any individual person working for them. And that's

2913
02:50:30,640 --> 02:50:35,160
Speaker 8: why employees have the right to come together collectively to

2914
02:50:35,360 --> 02:50:38,480
Speaker 8: just balance that out a little bit. Like a union

2915
02:50:38,560 --> 02:50:41,600
Speaker 8: is still going to have a power differential between themselves

2916
02:50:41,640 --> 02:50:45,200
Speaker 8: and the company. We have a whole lot more equity

2917
02:50:45,320 --> 02:50:47,720
Speaker 8: and a whole lot more access to that power together

2918
02:50:48,360 --> 02:50:52,160
Speaker 8: than as one individual person going to their manager asking

2919
02:50:52,280 --> 02:50:55,360
Speaker 8: nicely to have a couple extra days off because their

2920
02:50:55,400 --> 02:50:56,880
Speaker 8: parent died or whatever.

2921
02:50:58,760 --> 02:51:00,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, as the old is these, the old song goes,

2922
02:51:01,000 --> 02:51:03,240
Speaker 5: what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength

2923
02:51:03,240 --> 02:51:06,560
Speaker 5: of one, but the union makes us strong. Yeah, I

2924
02:51:06,560 --> 02:51:08,600
Speaker 5: think I think that's a good sort of place to

2925
02:51:08,720 --> 02:51:15,240
Speaker 5: end on. The negotiations are still ongoing, flying next week.

2926
02:51:15,800 --> 02:51:20,720
Speaker 8: To be there in person next week already. Yeah, yeah,

2927
02:51:20,879 --> 02:51:23,680
Speaker 8: a little scary. I don't know what to wear to

2928
02:51:23,800 --> 02:51:24,760
Speaker 8: an office anymore.

2929
02:51:25,879 --> 02:51:29,560
Speaker 10: Oh see, and me either. I actually just show up

2930
02:51:29,640 --> 02:51:31,800
Speaker 10: how I am always in my normal life.

2931
02:51:32,040 --> 02:51:33,840
Speaker 14: So I encourage you to do the same.

2932
02:51:34,800 --> 02:51:36,640
Speaker 8: Can I get a Union shirt from you when I

2933
02:51:36,680 --> 02:51:37,080
Speaker 8: get there?

2934
02:51:37,280 --> 02:51:38,119
Speaker 14: Oh please?

2935
02:51:38,200 --> 02:51:41,760
Speaker 10: They're literally clogging my home and I would love to

2936
02:51:41,800 --> 02:51:44,440
Speaker 10: give you one. So I have one of us.

2937
02:51:47,440 --> 02:51:47,760
Speaker 11: All right.

2938
02:51:47,800 --> 02:51:50,960
Speaker 5: So where can people go to find the Union and

2939
02:51:51,080 --> 02:51:52,039
Speaker 5: to support us.

2940
02:51:52,440 --> 02:51:57,279
Speaker 10: We are on Twitter at Iheartpod Union. We're on Instagram

2941
02:51:57,360 --> 02:51:59,320
Speaker 10: also at Iheartpod Union.

2942
02:52:00,040 --> 02:52:01,840
Speaker 14: Yeah, that's where you can find us. On social media.

2943
02:52:02,240 --> 02:52:08,000
Speaker 8: We're on Blue Sky at iHeart Podcast Union. I have

2944
02:52:08,080 --> 02:52:09,640
Speaker 8: the keys to that one right now, and I have

2945
02:52:09,720 --> 02:52:12,600
Speaker 8: not been really active with it. I'm sorry.

2946
02:52:13,600 --> 02:52:17,800
Speaker 10: Yeah, many an update goes out on the Twitter so

2947
02:52:18,200 --> 02:52:19,480
Speaker 10: you can stay in touch there.

2948
02:52:21,360 --> 02:52:25,600
Speaker 5: Yeah. And in the in the meantime between now and bargaining,

2949
02:52:25,640 --> 02:52:27,959
Speaker 5: this has been naked appen here. Thank you to so

2950
02:52:28,040 --> 02:52:30,880
Speaker 5: much for coming on and yeah, let's let's get let's

2951
02:52:30,920 --> 02:52:32,560
Speaker 5: let's let's get ourselves a good contract.

2952
02:52:32,760 --> 02:52:33,120
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2953
02:52:33,280 --> 02:52:36,520
Speaker 14: Yeah, we're gonna get a good contract. And it is

2954
02:52:36,680 --> 02:52:38,400
Speaker 14: such a pleasure to work with the both of you.

2955
02:52:38,879 --> 02:52:41,560
Speaker 8: Oh, yes, you too. Thank you so much Mia for

2956
02:52:41,600 --> 02:52:42,080
Speaker 8: having us on.

2957
02:52:42,360 --> 02:52:45,560
Speaker 5: Yeah for sure, always happy to all right, And this

2958
02:52:45,680 --> 02:52:48,520
Speaker 5: is also your daily union episode reminder that you too

2959
02:52:48,959 --> 02:52:51,480
Speaker 5: can do this. You too can spend an enormous amount

2960
02:52:51,480 --> 02:52:52,800
Speaker 5: of time going through a spreadsheet.

2961
02:52:54,120 --> 02:52:56,320
Speaker 8: Then finally spreadsheets.

2962
02:52:55,879 --> 02:52:58,640
Speaker 5: Turn it look. Unionization is the process of turning a

2963
02:52:58,680 --> 02:53:01,080
Speaker 5: spreadsheet into into a fighting organization.

2964
02:53:02,720 --> 02:53:06,360
Speaker 10: You two can get lost in a sea of Google docs.

2965
02:53:07,480 --> 02:53:10,840
Speaker 5: But I promise you all, as as much as this

2966
02:53:10,959 --> 02:53:14,240
Speaker 5: episode has been about, you know, the sort of stubbornness

2967
02:53:14,240 --> 02:53:17,240
Speaker 5: of management and how you know and how kind of

2968
02:53:17,320 --> 02:53:20,440
Speaker 5: demoralizing that process can be, it is worth it, I

2969
02:53:20,480 --> 02:53:23,640
Speaker 5: promise you all. It is and you can You can

2970
02:53:23,640 --> 02:53:24,119
Speaker 5: do it too.

2971
02:53:27,640 --> 02:53:27,879
Speaker 7: Hey.

2972
02:53:27,959 --> 02:53:31,080
Speaker 2: We'll be back Monday, with more episodes every week from

2973
02:53:31,080 --> 02:53:32,800
Speaker 2: now until the heat death of the universe.

2974
02:53:33,400 --> 02:53:35,920
Speaker 9: It Could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

2975
02:53:35,959 --> 02:53:38,680
Speaker 9: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

2976
02:53:38,680 --> 02:53:40,920
Speaker 9: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

2977
02:53:40,959 --> 02:53:44,400
Speaker 9: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

2978
02:53:44,760 --> 02:53:46,880
Speaker 9: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

2979
02:53:46,959 --> 02:53:51,000
Speaker 9: monthly at cool zonemedia, dot com, slash sources, thanks for listening.