1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 2: It was an impossible dilemma in the sense that we 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 2: realized that any decision we made could lead to somebody's death. 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 2: We'd have to go through the rest of our lives 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 2: knowing that someone had died because we had failed to act. 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 2: On the other hand, I had to ask myself, what 7 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 2: would it be like to go through the rest of 8 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 2: my life with my brother's blood in my hands. 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: That's David Kazinski, author of the book Every Last Tie, 10 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: The Story of the Unibomber and his Family. David is 11 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: the younger brother of Ted Kaczinski, a brilliant, troubled, reclusive 12 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: former mauth professor who began sending bombs through the mail 13 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy eight, killing three people and injuring twenty 14 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: three others. When the FBI finally closed in on Ted 15 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: Kazini after a nationwide manhunt that spanned years, it was 16 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: because they received the ultimate tip the Unibomber's brother had 17 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: turned him in. In this special bonus episode, I speak 18 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: with the therapist and writer Mark Epstein, whose work in his 19 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: many wonderful best selling books, explores the interface between psychiatry 20 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: and Buddhist philosophy. Mark, and I will delve into the 21 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: themes and ideas that present themselves in this absolutely extraordinary episode. 22 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: If you haven't listened to What's Wrong with Teddy, which 23 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 1: first dropped in season three, I hope you'll go back 24 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: and listen, either before or after this conversation. I'm Danny Shapiro, 25 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: and this is family Secrets, the secrets that are kept 26 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the 27 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 1: secrets we keep from ourselves. Mark Epstein, it's such a 28 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: pleasure to have you on Family Secrets. Thanks for joining me. 29 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 3: It's my pleasure. Thank you. 30 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: I'm curious what struck you when you were listening to 31 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: What's Wrong with Teddy? 32 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 3: Well, the first thing that struck me was, oh, my god, 33 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 3: you're asking me to listen to this episode about Ted Kaczynski. 34 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 3: I had no idea when you reached out to me 35 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 3: that that's what it was going to be. And I 36 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 3: thought the episode was extraordinary, and the humanity of the 37 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 3: brother is what struck me. The vulnerability and honesty and 38 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 3: courage of the brother, you know, really impacted me. And 39 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 3: then the story itself was fascinating. I really had no 40 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 3: idea I had read one newspaper article about the brother 41 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 3: turning him in, but I hadn't read his book, and 42 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 3: I had never heard and talk, and so you know, 43 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 3: I was I was very into it right from the beginning. 44 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: I think his David's humanity and his sort of extraordinary 45 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: spirit of say, generosity toward his I mean, there's just 46 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: not an ounce of blame even or bitterness or anger. 47 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 1: I heard none of that. I felt like, this is 48 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:31,399 Speaker 1: somebody who really really struggled with his brother's mental illness 49 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: and was coming to terms with understanding that his brother 50 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: was mentally ill, and then you know, discovering that, you know, 51 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: coming to realize who his brother was, which is such 52 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: an extraordinary part of the story. But I don't want 53 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: to get ahead of ourselves. He really gets into Ted's 54 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: early life, and you know, the title refers to David 55 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: saying to his mother as a kid, you know, as 56 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: maybe a seven or eight year old kid, what's wrong 57 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: with Teddy? And David idolized him? And I wonder in 58 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: some of the detail which was all kind of new 59 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: to me that I learned when he and I were 60 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: having this conversation, but about his early life, and then 61 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: what happened to Teddy, both as an infant and then 62 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: as a very young freshman at Harvard. I was wondering 63 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: how that struck you. 64 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 3: Well, I thought all of that, all that material in 65 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 3: the first the first half maybe of the conversation where David, 66 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 3: who's seven years younger than Ted, is talking about their 67 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 3: early life, Ted's early life and the incipient signs of 68 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 3: what probably was schizophrenia in Ted. You know, I'm wary 69 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 3: of the diagnosis and too much labeling. But one of 70 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 3: the things that I learned really in becoming a psychiatrist, 71 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 3: working in patient units in psychiatric hospitals for a number 72 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 3: of years in my training was that schizophenia is or 73 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 3: real disease, you know, and some people really have it, 74 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 3: and you can be a brilliant person and still have it. 75 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 3: And it has the feel I mean, we don't understand. 76 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 3: Science hasn't penetrated it, but it has the feel of, oh, 77 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 3: this must be a genetic, organic, biological thing, because the 78 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 3: symptoms are so distinctive. But what David describes is that 79 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 3: you know, his older brother, who, as you say, he idolized, 80 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 3: got progressively more weird, more withdrawn, less social, more preoccupied, 81 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 3: as he moved into his like laid adolescens you know, 82 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 3: were mid to late adolescents as I remember it, and David, 83 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 3: who you know, they went camping together, they did all 84 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 3: kinds of stuff together. But at a certain point he 85 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 3: becomes conscious of Ted having no friends and being kind 86 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 3: of sullen and withdrawn and isolated and sometimes weirdly angry. 87 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 3: I think, and says, you know, has that conversation that 88 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 3: you quote with his mom, his loving mom. He makes 89 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 3: a point, you know, they grew up in a love 90 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 3: and household, and intellectual household, a house full of love 91 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 3: and books and good relationships, you know. But somehow Ted 92 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 3: starts to drift off a little bit. And I think 93 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 3: he goes to Harvard at sixteen or something. He's got 94 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 3: an IQ of one hundred and sixty seven. You know, 95 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 3: he's a math genius. He's clearly brilliant. And then he 96 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 3: gets to Harvard and he becomes part of a study, 97 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 3: one of these social psychology studies that was popular in 98 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 3: the early sixties. There are some famous ones, Philip Zimbardo, 99 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 3: California and so on. But this guy, Henry Murray, who's 100 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 3: a legendary figure in the education and psychology department at 101 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 3: Harvard when I got there in the seventies, he was 102 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 3: still around. He was doing a study to see how 103 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 3: very brilliant Harvard undergraduates reacted to being brutalized basically made 104 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 3: fun of. That's how I remember it, anyway, And Ted 105 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 3: agrees to be part of the study and stays with 106 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 3: it even when he's being tortured, made fun of and 107 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 3: so on, because he wanted to prove that he that 108 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 3: he could handle it. 109 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a really haunting thing that he said. 110 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: Where he later when he was on trial as the 111 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: unibomber and that study came up, and the abusiveness of 112 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: that study and the trauma and the gaslighting, and he says, 113 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,119 Speaker 1: I wanted to prove that I couldn't be broken. Maybe 114 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: he was already broken. Certainly it would have made things worse. 115 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: It would have made things worse for a completely healthy person. 116 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think it's enough to explain the skit, Sophia, 117 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 3: if that's what he had. People who are vulnerable can 118 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 3: maybe be you know, the illness seems to have a 119 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 3: life of its own. But maybe some people can be 120 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 3: tipped over if they're if they're in the wrong environment 121 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 3: and that was certainly a toxic environment that Ted Kaczynski 122 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 3: was being subjected to. 123 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, when I was preparing for this conversation, 124 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: I remembered that you had gone to Harvard and I 125 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: didn't do the math, But were you there when Henry 126 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: Murray was there? 127 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 3: Henry Murray was it? Yeah, I never took courses from him. 128 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 3: I was there from seventy one to seventy five. I 129 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 3: was an undergraduate. I majored in psychology, but they called 130 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 3: it social relations there and a graduate student teachers of 131 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:52,559 Speaker 3: mine had studied with Henry Murray, and so I knew 132 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 3: of him. He was a you know, a foundational figure, 133 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 3: and he had no reputation as being any kind of problem, 134 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 3: you know, So I was totally unaware of these kinds 135 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 3: of studies. There were a couple of famous studies, one 136 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 3: where a psychologist got college students to give electric shocks, 137 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 3: painful electric shocks to students to see who would keep going, 138 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 3: you know, they were instructed to keep going even when 139 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 3: the subjects were expressing terrible pain. And there was another 140 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 3: famous study that several movies were made of it in 141 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 3: the past few years. Philips embardo that I referred to 142 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 3: before where students were divided up into like prisoners and guards, 143 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 3: and the guards students became increasingly sadistic when given room 144 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 3: to act out on the prisoner students. And there were 145 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 3: no checks and bounces on these social psychology experiments in 146 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 3: those days that the researchers were sort of free or 147 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 3: much freer to concoct these kind of processes, you know, 148 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 3: and their famous experiment because they showed how relatively good 149 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 3: hearted normal people can with just a little bit of 150 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 3: environmental encouragement, be turned into Nazi guards or there's a 151 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 3: lot of implications for what happened, you know, in the 152 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 3: war in Iraq and so on. So we learned from 153 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 3: those studies, but the people who were the subjects certainly 154 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 3: was not a good thing. In those same times, those 155 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 3: same days, you know, Timothy Leary was giving LSD to 156 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 3: prisoners and so on in Massachusetts, there was a kind 157 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 3: of freedom for the psychologists to see what kind of 158 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 3: information they could elicit from these kinds of things. 159 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: One of the heartbreaking things about that chapter in Ted's 160 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: story is that he was under age. He was in eighteen, 161 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: and so the school actually had to get permission from 162 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: his parents, and his parents seemed really, as you said, 163 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 1: really loving, thoughtful of people, and yeah, and his mom 164 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: had this feeling of, well, maybe this will be good 165 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: for him, and he doesn't have any friends, and maybe 166 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: this will help him, and of course it's Harvard, so 167 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: maybe all of this will be a good thing, and 168 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 1: that's why she gave permission. And there also seems like 169 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 1: there's so much as the story progresses, as David narrates it, 170 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: that has to do with a kind of a very 171 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: loving second guessing that goes on in the family. Their 172 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: mother also says to David when he's quite young that 173 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: she thinks that one of the reasons why Teddy is 174 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: the way that he is is because he had been 175 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: hospitalized as a nine month old and unable to see 176 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: his parents, and that when he came back from that 177 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: hospital visit, he was changed and he stopped making eye contact. 178 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: And it seems like there's throughout the story a sense 179 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: of a kind of almost gentle personal culpability in a way, 180 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: like thinking, well, maybe it was this, maybe it was that, 181 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: maybe I shouldn't do it. 182 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, well that you know. I mean, when he was 183 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 3: nine months old, he had a rash Teddy and he 184 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 3: went to he was in the hospital for a week, 185 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 3: and then when he when he came back, he seemed different. 186 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 3: But lots of kids, lots of kids have to be 187 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 3: in the hospital and when difficult things happen, when illness strikes. 188 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 3: When One of the things I learned when I was 189 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 3: in medical school from a very good family doctor at 190 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 3: Mass General was the thing called attribution theory, you know, 191 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 3: which is that we may when things happen, when we 192 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 3: get sick, or when someone that we love gets sick, 193 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 3: we make stuff up about what the cause is when 194 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 3: we don't know, you know. And doctors used to call 195 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 3: every everything they didn't understand psychosomatic, you know, they were 196 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 3: just they did the same thing. If you had an ulcer, 197 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 3: it was psychosomatic until they discovered that it was a 198 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 3: bacteria that caused the ulcer. You know. But people do 199 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 3: that too when accidents happen, when someone gets cancer, when 200 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 3: you know, it's like, oh, it must have been this, 201 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 3: it must have been that. And I think you hear 202 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 3: that in this in this story, not that a week 203 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 3: in the hospital for a nine month old it wasn't 204 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 3: traumatic for the parents and for the child. But you know, 205 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 3: David talks in the podcast about the mother making him 206 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 3: promise in the aftermath of that, you know, don't don't 207 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 3: ever abandon your brother. That's what he fears the most, 208 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 3: you know, when when David was seven. So the mother 209 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 3: had obviously been really affected by that, that first separation 210 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 3: from her baby. And you can't blame her, but I 211 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 3: see it more as they you know, the first tiny 212 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 3: signs of what might have blossomed into schizophrenia, which usually 213 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 3: doesn't show itself until late adolescent, you know, your late teens, 214 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 3: early twenties, the symptoms usually start to come, and that 215 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 3: seems to have been the case with Ted Kaczynski. You know, 216 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 3: one of the things that struck me in the whole 217 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 3: story for David was that there were these series of 218 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 3: losses where he's very close to the brother, and then 219 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 3: the brother retreats even from David and from the parents, 220 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 3: and sends letters to the parents saying, you know, I 221 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 3: don't ever want to speak to you again, et cetera. 222 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 3: And so they lose contact and then the whole thing 223 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 3: of the reveal that maybe he's the unibomber. So there's 224 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 3: one loss, two losses, you know, each time there's another 225 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 3: gulf that descends upon the relationship. You know, it's so tragic. 226 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and makes it all the more extraordinary the way 227 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: that he has absorbed and metabolized this life, this family, 228 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: this life, this brother into his life as an adult. 229 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: So the break that happens between David and Ted, that 230 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: is really the permanent break, is when David, who has 231 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: been living a kind of monastic life himself, he describes 232 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: it as a pilgrimage, and his solitude is very much 233 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: in the direction of wanting to know himself better, whereas 234 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: Ted's is in the direction of getting angrier and hostile 235 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: and blaming. But then David falls in love with a 236 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: childhood friend, and that, for Ted is a total break 237 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: in the relationship and he cuts things off. He says, 238 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: I don't want to have anything to do with you anymore. 239 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: And there's this moment that also really struck me, and 240 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: I wonder what you thought of it, where David makes 241 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: this very gentle inquiry because he's now with Linda and 242 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: they're getting married and they're going to spend their lives together, 243 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: and he he says, was Ted thinking that love is finite? 244 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 3: Oh? That's interesting, I don't remember. I don't remember that phrase. 245 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: He uses the metaphor of like pieces of a pie. 246 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 3: Yes, I do remember, yes, yes, yes, the whole story 247 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 3: of David. I mean, that's the other fascinating thing in 248 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 3: the podcast. I did a little research on the side 249 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 3: after listening to it. David goes to Texas and digs 250 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 3: a hole and covers it with like metal sheeting and 251 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 3: lives in the hole for like for a couple of years. 252 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 3: I mean, Dave David is emula after going camping in 253 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 3: the Yukon with Ted, you know, they have this real 254 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 3: the two of them go and and really bond and 255 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 3: are living in the wilderness, and then they each go 256 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 3: Ted goes to Montana or wherever, and David goes to 257 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 3: Texas and digs the hole, and that somehow comes out 258 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 3: of that realizing that he wants to marry this girl 259 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,719 Speaker 3: who he knew when he was eleven and tracks her 260 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 3: down and marries her and then tells Ted, and Ted 261 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 3: responds as your as you're describing, like it's almost like 262 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 3: David was his accolyte, you know, and now he's rejected 263 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,719 Speaker 3: the Guru and found another, you know, somebody else to 264 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 3: bond with, and Ted, as you say, you know, writes 265 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 3: him off, and the woman that David marries is because 266 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 3: is into Buddhism, and I think becomes or was already 267 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 3: a professor of religious studies and a Buddhist practitioner in 268 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 3: upstate New York at Union College. And I think you 269 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 3: can hear in that phrase, is love finite maybe David's 270 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 3: later embrace of kind of spiritual understanding that he wasn't 271 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 3: brought up and they were brought up in a very academic, intellectual, 272 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 3: non religious, non spiritual kind of environment, similar to the 273 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 3: one that I was brought up in. But then I 274 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 3: think you discover something about the infiniteness of love that 275 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,719 Speaker 3: would be very different from the way that Teddy is thinking. 276 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: I love that phrase, the infiniteness of love, and it feels, 277 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: you know, I'm going back to something that David said 278 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 1: early in our conversation, which was that his family's core 279 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 1: value was the life of the mind, and that part 280 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: of that core value was that by developing your mind, 281 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: you could develop your spirit and become someone who could 282 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: really contribute to the world. But the mind was the portal, 283 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: or the mind was the vehicle. 284 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think they were definitely humanists, and you know, 285 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 3: I grew up in an academic environment in New Haven. 286 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 3: My father was a professor of medicine at Yale, and 287 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 3: so I really understand that, you know, that belief in 288 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 3: the life of the mind as being fundamental. But I've 289 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 3: had the experience, you know, as a practicing therapist with 290 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 3: parents who have these brilliant, brilliant but asocial kids. You 291 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 3: know where the hope is, Oh, my kid is so brilliant. 292 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 3: You know, he's got an IQ of one hundred and 293 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 3: fifteen hundred and sixteen hundred and seventy. He's doing math, 294 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 3: you know, he's doing calculus in fifth grade kind of thing. 295 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 3: And there's such a veneration of intelligence that it's easy 296 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 3: to overlook, you know, what's missing and to try to 297 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 3: get the help that those kind of brilliant but remote 298 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 3: kids need. And I don't know that you can head 299 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 3: off a psychotic illness, you know that's destined to come 300 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 3: in in one third decade. But some of those kids, 301 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 3: some of those kids. 302 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 2: Can learn to relate. 303 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 3: You can hear in David's talking about his mom how 304 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 3: much his mom was wishing for that for her older 305 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 3: son and hoping that it could be David who could 306 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 3: help him, could be Harvard, that could help him, you know. 307 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 3: And then at the end, at the end, David is 308 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 3: scared to tell the mom that he thinks that Teddy 309 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 3: is the unifomber. He waits to tell her until it's proven, 310 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 3: and he's worried, you know. And then and then she 311 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 3: gives that beautiful response. 312 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 2: You know that I know what you're doing. 313 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 3: You're doing out of love. 314 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: Basically, Yeah, that was extraordinary. I mean, I'm hoping that 315 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: people listening to our episode will go back and listen 316 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: to What's wrong with Teddy. 317 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 3: Oh, it's so moving, We'll be right back. 318 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a part of me that wants to 319 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: talk about every single aspect of it, and part of 320 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: me that wants to leave some of the surprises in 321 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: there as surprises. But I think I do want to 322 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: say for listeners that might not know the unibomber story, 323 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: first of all, one of the way that ultimately Teddy 324 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: was caught is that he writes a manifesto. He's already 325 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 1: been killing people with these bombs that he sends through 326 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: the mail, and he writes a manifesto and he contacts 327 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 1: newspapers and asks them to publish it and says, if 328 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: you publish my manifesto, I won't send any more bombs, 329 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: and so the manifesto is published, and somehow that's how 330 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: Glinda sees it. 331 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, he had sent sixteen bombs between nineteen seventy eight 332 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 3: and nineteen ninety he'd sent sixteen bombs, killed three people, 333 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 3: injured twenty three people. And then he writes to the 334 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 3: New York Times on the Washington Post and says, if 335 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 3: you publish my entire thing, I'll stop. And it was 336 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 3: I remember when that when it was published, and it 337 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 3: was like like how you know, it was like a long, 338 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 3: long thing, and they had big debates at the newspapers 339 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 3: whether to publish it or not because it was a 340 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 3: sort of extortion, but they decided, you know, if they 341 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 3: could save lives, it was worth doing. And the story 342 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 3: that's told in the podcast is that David wasn't really 343 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 3: paying that much attention to the unibomber or to the 344 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 3: manifesto or anything, but his wife read it, and his 345 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 3: wife had never met Ted, but had read the letter 346 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 3: that Ted had sent to David saying I don't want 347 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 3: to be your brother anymore. 348 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 2: I don't ever want to. 349 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 3: Talk to you again. You know, when he was breaking 350 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 3: off contact with both the parents and with David, and 351 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 3: she recognized in the syntax, in the in the sort 352 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 3: of drivenness of the prose, recognized that there was a similarity, 353 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 3: and she like woke David from his torpor, you know, 354 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 3: and said, this could be your brother. You know. She 355 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 3: sort of pulled him, kicking and screaming into looking at it. 356 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: And it struck me how careful they were from that point, 357 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 1: from the point where where Linda says to him, I 358 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: think that this could be your brother, they're very careful. 359 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: I mean, they have experts look at it. 360 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. They brought it to a psychiatrist, yeah. 361 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, And they then brought it to a forensic expert 362 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: who tells them that he thinks that there's a sixty 363 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 1: percent chance that these letters were written by the same person, 364 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: whatever that is, whatever that is. It's sort of a 365 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: terrible number because it's it's you know, if it were 366 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: like ninety nine point nine percent or if it was 367 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: like three percent, but sixty percent is. 368 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 3: Like, this is what they need a eye for. 369 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: Oh boy, just tipping it to a I would have 370 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: solved this. And then David decides to go forward without 371 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: telling his mom, and as you mentioned, and the reason. 372 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: The reason is, well, what if he's wrong, and why 373 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: put her through that? I mean, every step of the way, 374 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 1: there's an incredible amount of compassion and care. 375 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 3: Well and a real ethical dilemma. That's what struck me, 376 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 3: you know, because he's deciding should I turn in my 377 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 3: brother in order to save you know, potentially save lives 378 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 3: like which is worse, you know, like squealing on the 379 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 3: brother who could potentially be face to death penalty, you know, 380 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 3: or allowing him to continue and possibly kill other people. 381 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 3: And he makes the decision to turn him in with 382 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 3: the hope that he can save him from the death penalty. 383 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 3: You know. That's sort of the fasting and bargain that 384 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 3: he makes with himself and doesn't go so smoothly. Let's 385 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 3: just put it that way. 386 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I found myself thinking about the flip 387 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: side of compassion, if it's a flip side, which is 388 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 1: cruelty because there were things that went on, you know, 389 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: Promises were made to David and Linda that they were 390 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 1: going to be kept out of it, that they they 391 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: would remain anonymous, and the opposite of that happens, and 392 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: it's it's a media circus and they have to you know, 393 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: hide from from the media. And there's a moment that 394 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: he talks about it's only it's the only time I 395 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 1: heard a hint of anger in anything that he had 396 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: to say completely understandably, which is that there was a comedian, 397 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: there's a popular comedian at the time who made some 398 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: just really terrible joke about you know, these two brothers, 399 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: and one was the unibomber and the other one was 400 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not even going to say it. And 401 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: there's this feeling I wonder if you could speak to 402 00:25:55,560 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: about when something happens in a family, you know, throughout 403 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: this podcast, you know, we're now working on the ninth 404 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: season of this podcast. It means I've had like ninety 405 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 1: deep dive conversations about secrets with guests, and it seems 406 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: like shame is such a huge and universal feeling among 407 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: among people who have either kept a secret, had a 408 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: secret kept from them, or had something happen in a 409 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: family that is, you know, in Jewish terms, a shanda. 410 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 3: You know that it's it's like a just a a disgrace. 411 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 1: A disgrace, and that it and that it spreads like 412 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: some kind of stain across a family. 413 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I'll tell you what it reminded me of, 414 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 3: and it's sort of it's more like an association than 415 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 3: than a direct comparison. But in my family, when I 416 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 3: was maybe seven eight nine years old, I was playing 417 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 3: scrabble with my mom and she had an old Webster's 418 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 3: dictionary with a blue cover that she kept with the 419 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 3: scrabble scent. And I was looking up a word and 420 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 3: I opened up the dictionary and I noticed in my 421 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 3: mom's handwriting her name Cherry with a different last name 422 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 3: that either then her maiden name or her married name. 423 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 3: It was like Scherry Steinbeck or some name like that, 424 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 3: which was not her maiden name. And I was like, 425 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 3: what's this. And it turns out my mother was married 426 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 3: when she was in her twenties before she met my dad, 427 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,479 Speaker 3: and her husband died had a heart attack when he 428 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,959 Speaker 3: was like twenty eight twenty nine years old, and I 429 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 3: never knew and my father apparently never wanted to talk 430 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 3: about it, and so because it was sort of, you know, 431 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 3: made him feel bad, I think. And it wasn't until 432 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,239 Speaker 3: my father died, which was like fifteen years ago, that 433 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 3: my mom, who was in in her eighties, in the 434 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 3: aftermath of my father dying, started talking about the death 435 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 3: of her first husband and she had had to keep it, 436 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 3: you know, like totally quiet. She gave the wedding pictures 437 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 3: to her sister to keep after her husband died, when 438 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 3: she met my father and so on. So this the 439 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 3: need and the family to preserve the secret, you know, 440 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 3: for the sake of somebody, because to you know, face 441 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 3: it head on. The Buddha I've I've been really helped 442 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 3: by Buddhist psychology and Buddhist meditation, the Buddha's first noble truth. 443 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 3: You know, when he said that life, it's usually translated 444 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 3: as life is suffering, but the word that he used, duka, 445 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 3: actually means hard to face. So he was saying, you know, 446 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 3: there's something always in all of our lives that's hard 447 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 3: to face, and when we when we turn away, when 448 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 3: we try not to look at it, that perpetuates our suffering, 449 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 3: you know. So I think all the stories that you're 450 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 3: sharing are often, if not all, is about what finally 451 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 3: happens when we confront the secrets, you know exactly, and 452 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 3: that unlesia, what that unleashas is that kind of infinite 453 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 3: love feeling that that David is talking about in this interview. 454 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: I'm curious with your mother. Was there that feeling? I 455 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: mean that it was she was finally, finally in her eighties, 456 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: you know, able to you know, to share and talk 457 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: about this, this this story she talked. 458 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 3: Think I think it it opened up a nice portal 459 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 3: between us. Now she's ninety nine. And what happened was 460 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 3: that I got a package of photographs in the mail 461 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 3: from an from a college friend of my mom's from 462 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 3: that time who had pictures of her and the husband 463 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 3: and their friends that he had been holding ever since 464 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 3: her husband had died. And I put him in touch 465 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 3: with my mom. And you know, I was hoping for 466 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 3: a lot more, for more of a flow of love 467 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 3: that would come out of it all, and my mom 468 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 3: was more like it was so long ago, you know 469 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 3: what I knew this for. But it was nice. It 470 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 3: helped her more and my dad. You know, I think 471 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 3: the damned up grief from the first loss, to let 472 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 3: that flow a little bit helped her to talk with 473 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 3: her kids, me and my siblings, you know, about my dad, 474 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 3: and I think it all needed to happen the way 475 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 3: it happened. 476 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 477 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: So this episode is the only one I've ever done 478 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: where I had two guests on, and the second guest 479 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: who comes on this episode is a man named Gary Wright. 480 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: And I just found that one of the most moving 481 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: parts of this whole story is that in the wake 482 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: of Ted's conviction and David does succeed in Ted not 483 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: receiving the death penalty, both David and Linda and David's 484 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: mom start reaching out to Ted's victims as I don't 485 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: know a kind of you know, something like a not 486 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: a reparation or you know, like there's it's just something 487 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: that they have to do, they are absolutely compelled to do. 488 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: And Gary Wright, who was a victim of one of 489 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: Ted's bombs, whose life was completely altered by his injuries, 490 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: mentions at one point that he had two hundred pieces 491 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: of shrapnel removed and had to have three surgeries. 492 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 3: And yeah, he had a computer store or something, and 493 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 3: that Ted blew up. Right. 494 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: But when David calls Gary Wright, and when eventually they connect, 495 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: Gary has such a passionate response so easily could have 496 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: gone another way, you know, that feeling of it's almost 497 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: it's biblical in a way, right, It's like it's well, 498 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: if it's if it was your brother, then it might 499 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: as well have been you. I don't want have anything 500 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: to do and many of many of the victims did 501 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: have that response, I don't want to have anything to 502 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: do with anybody named Kazinski. From a Buddhist philosophy perspective, 503 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: I kept on thinking about the ways in which they 504 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: end up interacting, becoming like virtual blood brothers. At one point, 505 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: David says, but Gary's Gary's initial response to him is, 506 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: this must be a tremendous burden for you, and there 507 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: probably aren't many people that you can talk to about 508 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: it who are sort of intimate with the situation and 509 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: feel free to call me anytime. 510 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, that whole thing is remarkable, not just from 511 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 3: a Buddhist perspective, but I would say also from a 512 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 3: psychodynamic perspective. One of the things that I realized is 513 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 3: that you know, Ted is convicted, saved from the death penalty, 514 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 3: goes to maximum security prison, where he writes and writes 515 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 3: and you know, sends his stuff out, becomes friends with 516 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 3: the Oklahoma City bomber and with one of the World 517 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 3: Trade Center bombers, and so on, But he won't talk 518 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 3: to David. You know, his whole letees. He just died 519 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 3: a year or two ago. The entire time he refused 520 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 3: to have contact with David. So then that I'm glad 521 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 3: you use that blood brother phrase, you know, because the 522 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 3: thing in David not just from a humanist, humanistic perspective, 523 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 3: but also from such a personal place. He lost the 524 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 3: brother once, he lost the brother twice, and then he 525 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 3: feels he feels compelled to reach out to the brother's victims, 526 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 3: you know. And also you know, he was given a 527 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 3: big reward for turning the brother in, and he used 528 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 3: that money. He made a fund with that money to 529 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 3: help the victims. So it's even more than Gary. But 530 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 3: Gary was one of these rare souls who could hear 531 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 3: where the overture was really coming from, I think. And 532 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 3: we just responded like like, you didn't make this happen, 533 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 3: and I didn't make this happen. And in a way, 534 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 3: we're both victims, and in that way we're bonded together, 535 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 3: you know, And so let's talk and this is. This 536 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 3: has been hard for me, but I know it's been 537 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 3: hard for you too, And so life is. Life has 538 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 3: this potential for suffering, and the only way to deal 539 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 3: with it is to face it, you know, so we 540 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 3: could face it together and so but each of them 541 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 3: are remarkable, Yeah. 542 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: They really are. And together there's just some kind of 543 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: mystical sense of being unstoppable. Together for the good, David 544 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: says so eloquently to the end of our conversation. He 545 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: talks about the balance between trust and self protection, and 546 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: and then he says, I'd rather err on the side 547 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: of trust. 548 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,919 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, Well, he's making himself so vulnerable reaching out 549 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 3: to all of those victims of the Brothers bombs, you know, 550 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 3: and the urge towards self protection would really inhibit those overtures, 551 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 3: you know. And and the trust in the in some 552 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 3: of those people's abilities to hear where he's coming from. 553 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 3: Is the kind of trust that he's talking about, a 554 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 3: deeper trust in our shared humanity, I think, And. 555 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: There's so much to be learned from it. It's the 556 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 1: it's the opposite of circling the wagons, it's the opposite 557 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:47,800 Speaker 1: of hungering down. 558 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 3: Well, that kind of trust, that kind of trust is 559 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 3: what brings people to therapy also, you know, because why 560 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 3: would why would you come to a therapist and open 561 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 3: yourself up to this person who you really don't know, 562 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 3: you know, and it's sort of a miracle in our 563 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 3: in our world that that that forum exists. You know, 564 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 3: two people coming together to say, to say everything, everything 565 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 3: that they're willing to share. You know, it's the same 566 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:17,720 Speaker 3: kind of vulnerability. Really. 567 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's that's that's really true. That's beautiful. At 568 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: the very end of the episode, or very close to 569 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: the end of the episode, David says, and it really 570 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: made me think about, you know, these times that we're 571 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: living in. And I mean, this is a conversation that 572 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: took place several years ago, but these words feel even 573 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 1: truer to me now. 574 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, he says about violence. 575 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, you say it. 576 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 3: No, you say it, you got it. 577 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: He says, violence looks powerful, but violence is weak and destructive. 578 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: Love doesn't look so powerful, but is by far the 579 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: more powerful force in the world. 580 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. I thought that that was like the dalilaw coming 581 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 3: right through him. You know, violence is weak, Love is powerful, 582 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 3: and we have to you know, each of our our 583 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,280 Speaker 3: agenda can be to get rid of our own inner violence, 584 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 3: you know, and that's how to less than the outer 585 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 3: violence that we're all having to cope with. 586 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: Mark, thank you so much for this conversation. It's been 587 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: an honor and really just wonderful digging into this amazing 588 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: episode with you and. 589 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 3: No I'm so glad you you brought me into it. 590 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 3: It really was an important thing for me. 591 00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, 592 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,240 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.