1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:17,159 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Frying. This is 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: the second part of our three parter on Jim Thorpe, 5 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: one more part than we often have in our multi 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: part episodes. Last time, we talked about his childhood and 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: how he joined the track and field and then the 8 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: football team at Carlisle Indian Industrial School. When we left 9 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: off in our last episode, he had just finished the 10 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: nine nine football season, and that is where we're going 11 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: to pick things up again. One of the reasons that 12 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: Jim Thorpe had decided to go to Carlisle Indian Industrial 13 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: School in nineteen o four was that things had been 14 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: difficult for him in Oklahoma after the deaths of so 15 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: many family members. But by the end of the nineteen 16 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: o eight nineteen o nine school year, he was starting 17 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: to feel really homesick. He asked for leave to visit 18 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: his family, something that the administration seems to have thought 19 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: was just for a summer break, but it was not. 20 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: Although Thorpe clearly excelled at football and track and field 21 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: in the early twentieth century, unless a person was working 22 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: as a coach, the only sport that might actually allow 23 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: them to earn a really reliable living was baseball. That 24 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: was thanks to the existence of multiple year major league contracts. 25 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 1: So like you could make enough to support yourself in 26 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: other sports, maybe, but like not with any kind of 27 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: reliability or long term stability. In the summers of nineteen 28 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: o nine and nineteen ten, Thorpe played semi pro baseball 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: in North Carolina, spending the rest of those years back 30 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: in Oklahoma, living with various family members, working on farms 31 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: and ranches and hunting. These baseball teams paid Thorpe about 32 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: fifteen dollars a week, which was described as meal money, 33 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: and he was not the only Carlysle student playing semi 34 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: professional baseball at the time. His Carlyle classmates Joe Libby 35 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: and Jesse young Deer did this as well, all three 36 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: of them having been encouraged to do so by Pop Warner. 37 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: Thorpe's long term goal seems to have been to break 38 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: into the major leagues from this semi professional play. He 39 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: had decided that the only job that really suited his 40 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: temperament and his interests was to just be an athlete, 41 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 1: but in nineteen eleven, he ran into his former track mentor, 42 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: Albert Exen Dine, who was now a coach at Carlisle. 43 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: Ex and Dine encouraged him to come back to the school. 44 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: During his years away, Thorpe had gotten a little taller 45 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: and had also filled out some more. X and I 46 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: described him as being big as a mule, so ex 47 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: and Dine thought that Thorpe would make a really good 48 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,519 Speaker 1: addition to the football team at Carlisle, and then Pop 49 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 1: Warner also promised Thorpe not only a chance to play 50 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: for Carlysle again, but also a shot at the nineteen 51 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,959 Speaker 1: twelve Alympic team. Although athletics were what drew Thorpe back 52 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: to Carlisle, he did keep up with his class work 53 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: as well, and he was overall a good student. One 54 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: of his teachers was Maryanne Moore, not yet a famous poet. 55 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: He was apparently one of her favorite students, but she 56 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: did not teach him poetry. She was teaching a class 57 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: in commercial law, intended to help indigenous students protect themselves 58 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:28,079 Speaker 1: in legal and land dealings after they finished school. In 59 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: his earlier time on the Carlisle football team, Thorpe had 60 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: become one of the most skilled and recognizable players. They 61 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: were write ups about him in local papers, and there 62 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: were always fans who were eager to buy him drinks. 63 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: That continued in the nineteen eleven season. That year, Walter Camp, 64 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: who was known as the father of American football, named 65 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: Thorpe a first team All American and that is an 66 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: honor that he would earn for the second time in 67 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: nineteen twelve. Thorpe's return to the school was not without problems, 68 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: though we talked in Part one about how conditions at 69 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: Carlisle and other boarding schools for indigenous students were often 70 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: insufficient at best. As an athlete, Thorpe was shielded from 71 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: a lot of this, and later on he often talked 72 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: fondly of the school. But he did contract a bacterial 73 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: eye infection called tracoma after the nineteen eleven football season 74 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: was over. Tracoma outbreaks were a frequent problem at Carlisle 75 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: and at other residential schools. This infection can cause the 76 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: eyelid to turn inward, which causes the eyelashes to scrape 77 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: the surface of the eye. It is incredibly painful. This 78 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: happened to Thorpe and he had to have surgery to 79 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: correct it. This may have affected his vision, but it's 80 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: not something that he ever mentioned again after leaving Carlisle. 81 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: Although Thorpe loved to play football, a much bigger focus 82 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: for him going into the spring of nineteen twelve was 83 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: track and field. In preparation for the Olympics, the International 84 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 1: Olympic Committee had added to all around event to the 85 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: Summer Games, the Classic pentathlon and the decathlon. These were 86 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: the events that Thorpe started training for with an eye 87 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: toward tryouts in New York on May eighteenth. Also representing 88 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: Carlisle was Hopie runner Lewis Tauanama, who was preparing for 89 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: the ten thousand meter race and the marathon. This was 90 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: relatively early in the history of the Olympic Games. We've 91 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: walked through that history in a lot more detail in 92 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: our episode on Pierre de Cooperton, who was the father 93 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: of the modern Olympics. The first modern Olympic Games had 94 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: been held in eighteen ninety six, and the nineteen twelve 95 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: games were only the fifth Olympic Games in the modern era. 96 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: It had only been a few years since the United 97 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: States had seriously started trying to select and train Olympic contenders, 98 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,239 Speaker 1: with the American Olympic Committee being established in nineteen oh six, 99 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: but at the same time this was still the Olympics, 100 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: meant to showcase the best amateur athletes from nations around 101 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: the world, and Thorpe was trying to qualify for them, 102 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: not only without an Olympic level track and field coach, 103 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: but also without having ever done some of the events 104 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: involved in the pentathlon and the decathlon at all. For example, 105 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: he got to the Olympic tryouts without knowing that you 106 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: take a running start when throwing a javelin. At tryouts, 107 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: Thorpe sort of hopped mostly in place and still managed 108 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: to throw the javelin a hundred and thirty six ft 109 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: and seven point five inches. Yeah, he uh qualified for 110 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: that knowing not what he was doing at all. I 111 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: feel bad because I'm sure there were athletes there who 112 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: had been training and training and training, and he just 113 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: kind of dusted them. And like, how for us, we 114 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: have all been in that moment where you're like, I'm 115 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: prepared of doing it. This person doesn't know what they're 116 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: doing and they're ten times better. Yeah. So, because they 117 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: were indigenous, Thorpe and Tawanama were considered wards of the 118 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: Federal government and not US citizens, but even so, they 119 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: were selected to represent the United States at the nineteen 120 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: twelve Olympic Games in Stockholm, Sweden. They set sail aboard 121 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: the s S Fenland on June fourteenth, nineteen twelve. News 122 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: reports from the time and early biographies of Jim Thorpe 123 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: claim that he refused to train on the ship, but 124 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: this was untrue. Multiple teammates have confirmed that he was 125 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: training with everyone else, and there are also photos that 126 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: show him running laps on the deck. This news coverage 127 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: was connected to racist stereotypes of indigenous people as lazy, 128 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: and it's simultaneously worked to undercut Thorpe's achievements as an 129 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: athlete by suggesting that they came from some kind of 130 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: innate ability as a Native American and not from his 131 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: having worked at it. It is true that he didn't 132 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: train a lot on the last leg of the voyage, 133 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: but at that point he was tapering or cutting back 134 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: on his physical activity as part of the preparation for 135 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: the endurance events that he was about to undertake. That 136 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: is something people do still today. Yeah, it is a 137 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: real thing that the other entrance athletes were also doing. 138 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: We will get to what happened during these actual Olympic 139 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: events after a quick sponsor break. The pentathlon at the 140 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: nineteen twelve Summer Olympic Games took place on July seventh, 141 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: which was the second day of the Games. Thorpe placed 142 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: first in four of the five events. That was the 143 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: running broad jump, he had a distance of twenty three 144 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: ft two and seven tenth inches, the two hundred meter dash, 145 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: which he had a time of twenty two and nine 146 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: tenths seconds, a discus throw he threw it more than 147 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: a hundred and sixteen feet, which was three feet farther 148 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: than the next competitor, and a fifteen hundred meter run. 149 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: He did that in four minutes, forty four and eight 150 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: tenths seconds. The only events of the five that he 151 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: did not win was the javelin throw. He had improved 152 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: a lot since qualifying in tryouts and not knowing at 153 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: all what he was doing. He's still placed third. Classic 154 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: pentathlon is scored with one point for first place finish, 155 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: two points for second place, three points for third, and 156 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: so on, so a lower score is better. With his 157 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: four first place finishes and one third, thorpe score was seven. 158 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 1: The second place winner had a score of twenty one. 159 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: I would call that blowing the competition out of the water. 160 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: They got dusted. Because I don't follow any sport, I 161 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: did not know how classic pentathlon was scored, and I 162 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: was looking at the rankings on the Official Olympic Games 163 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: website and I was like, how does he have a 164 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: score of seven and the next competitors I'll have scores 165 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: have like twenty one three, like an entire more digits. 166 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: Were these all the same games? What's happening? So the 167 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: Decathlon started on July thirteenth, and in the interim to 168 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: keep himself active but without overtaxing himself, Thorpe participated in 169 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: a few smaller events. He didn't earn medals in any 170 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: of these, but also he was really conserving his energy. 171 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: On the first day of the decathlon, it was raining. 172 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: As we mentioned in Part one, Carlyle's athletic team had 173 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: a reputation for not being at their best in bad weather, 174 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: and this was true for Thorpe as well. The events 175 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: that took place on that first day were the one 176 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 1: meter dash, the running broad jump, and the shot put. 177 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: This was tougher than the pentathlon. On the broad jump 178 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: that was the first event and Thorpe faulted on his 179 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: first two tries, so it took him three tries to 180 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: even do it. The only event he won that day 181 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: was the shot put, which he threw forty two ft 182 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: five and which was more than two ft ahead of 183 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 1: the next competitor. It was very good it, throwing things 184 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: many feet farther than the next competitor. He joked that 185 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: the only reason he did as well as he did 186 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: at the shop put was because he got to change 187 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: into some dry clothes first. On the second day of 188 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:17,079 Speaker 1: the decathlon, the weather was great, but Thorpe's shoes were missing. 189 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: Thorpe and Warner had to scrounge up another pair, finally 190 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,599 Speaker 1: finding one shoe that was too small and another that 191 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: was too large. This sounds very comical, but also was 192 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: surely stressful. The events for the day were the running, 193 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: high jump, the four hundred run, the one hurdles. He 194 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 1: came in first in the high jump, second in the 195 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: four d and first in the hurdles, setting a record 196 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: of fifteen point six seconds. Yeah, we do not know 197 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: what happened to his shoes. The common conclusion from a 198 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: lot of people is that somebody stole his shoes to 199 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: try to keep him from being an efficient competitor in 200 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: these games, like we really, we really don't know. Day 201 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: three included the discus, the pole vault, the javelin and run. 202 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: He placed third in the pole vault and fourth in 203 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: the javelin and run. He came in first, and he 204 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: even beat his time from the mentathlon earlier in the games. 205 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: This time he ran up in four minutes forty point 206 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: one seconds. This is incredible to me because number one, 207 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 1: he would have been more tired at this point than 208 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: he was earlier. Number two, he was still in his 209 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: mismatched shoes. Reading this makes me feel like I have 210 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: not been running in a while, but like I was 211 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: the prissiest, least coping runner on the planet. Because it's 212 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: like my sock feels two millimeters off of where it 213 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: should sit. I can't possibly and yet this dude choose 214 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: that don't fit trucking along. Uh. In the end, Thorpe 215 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: had placed in the top four of all ten decathalon 216 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: events and had placed first in four of those events. 217 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: This scores differently, so the scores here Bigger is better. 218 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: Just keep that in mind versus what we talked about earlier. 219 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: So out of a possible total score of ten thousand points. 220 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: Thorpe scored eight thousand, four hundred twelve. The second place finisher, 221 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: Hugo Wiselander of Sweden, earned seven thousand, seven hundred twenty four. 222 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: Thorpe's score stood as a record until nineteen thirty two, 223 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: and because the Classic Pentathlon was retired from the Games 224 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: in ur, Thorpe is the only person to have won 225 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: both the Classic Pentathlon and the decathlon at the Olympic Games. 226 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: I just want to take in a moment to just 227 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: point out that there were six hundred and eighty eight 228 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: points separating Thorpe and the next competitor in these scores. 229 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: So one of the more memorable stories about Jim Thorpe 230 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: in these Olympic Games, aside from his incredible performance and 231 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: both of those two events, that centers on his appearance 232 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: at the awards ceremony. After having awarded Thorpe gold medals 233 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: for both the decathlon and the pentathlon, King Gustave, the 234 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 1: fifth of Sweden's told him quote, sir, you are the 235 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: greatest athlete in the world. It is widely reported that 236 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: Thorpe replied to him, thanks, King, I say widely, like 237 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: almost every article about this mentions it uh The drunk 238 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: history about this mentions it, but biographer Kate Buford contends 239 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: that it probably never actually happened and was just another 240 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: way to kind of undermine Thorpe's accomplishments and his personality. 241 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: Writing quote a flippant reply would have been out of 242 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: character for a man who was highly uncomfortable in public 243 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: ceremonies and hated to stand out. In addition to his medals, 244 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: Thorpe was awarded a life size bust of the King 245 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: of Sweden, as well as a bejeweled chalice shaped like 246 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: a Viking ship, which was from zarn Nicholas the second 247 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: of Russia. Before returning to the US, Thorpe and his 248 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: tea mates took part in exhibition games and Europe. As 249 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: we mentioned in part one, Thorpe had some French ancestry, 250 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: and he spent some time in France to get a 251 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: little sense of that ancestry. Once the team had arrived 252 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: back in the United States, they were really treated as heroes. 253 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: There were banquets and receptions and ticker tape parades and 254 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: multiple major cities. Thorpe also got a letter of congratulations 255 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: from President William Howard Taft he found a lot of 256 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: this attention really overwhelming, though he did not always enjoy 257 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: being in a spotlight. Thorpe's incredible performance at the nineteen 258 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: twelve Olympic Games sparked a renewed interest in the Games 259 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: as people waited for the next Jim Thorpe to arrive 260 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: on the scene, and his success continued after he got 261 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: back home. At the Amateur Athletics Union All Around Championship 262 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: in New York in nineteen twelve, Thorpe set a new 263 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: record of seven thousand, four hundred seventy six points, in 264 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: spite of the fact that the weather was terrible and 265 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: he was actually recovering from food point pasoning. Thorpe returned 266 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: to Carlisle after the Olympic Games, and by this point 267 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: he had also enrolled some of his siblings at the 268 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: school since both of their parents had died. He really 269 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: seems to have been trying to keep as many of 270 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: them together as much as he could. The Carlisle football 271 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: team also had a strong season in nineteen twelve, with 272 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: Thorpe scoring a hundred and ninety eight of the team's 273 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: five hundred and four total points and twenty five of 274 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: its sixty six touchdowns. Carlisle finished the nineteen twelve season 275 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: with twelve wins, one loss, in one tie. One of 276 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: Carlyle's most memorable games in the nineteen twelve season was 277 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: against the US Military Academy at West Point. This game 278 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: was hugely symbolic, as Pop Warner told them, quote, I 279 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: shouldn't have to prepare you for this game. Just go 280 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: read your history books. Your father's and grandfathers fought their fathers. 281 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: One of West Points players that this game was Dwight D. Eisenhower, 282 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: who would later be the President of the United States. 283 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: Eisenhower and another player, Leland Hobbs, teamed up to try 284 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: to tackle Thorpe hard enough that it would put him 285 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: out of the game. Thorpe saw what was coming and 286 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 1: stepped out of the way, which caused Eisenhower and Hobbs 287 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: to collide. It is widely reported that Eisenhower was seriously 288 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: injured enough when he did this that it ended his 289 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: football career, but his injury happened at a different game 290 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: later in the season and not at the one against Carlisle. 291 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 1: In my head, that plays out as a tech savery 292 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: cartoon like the Smooth Bugs bunny side step while your 293 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 1: enemies clunk into each other. Yeah. Uh. In the end, 294 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: Carlyle won the game against West Point twenty seven to six. 295 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: The New York Times right up of this game is 296 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: illustrative not just of the game and Thorpe's place in it, 297 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: but also of how newspapers in general wrote about the 298 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: Carlysle team. Quote. Jim Thorpe and his redoubtable band of 299 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: Carlyle Indian gridiron stars invaded the planes this afternoon to 300 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: match their prowess against the mole skin gladiators of Uncle 301 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: Sam's military Academy. And when the two crossed in the 302 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: semi darkness of late afternoon, the Cadets had been shown 303 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: up as no other West Point team has been in 304 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: many years. They were buried under the overwhelming score of 305 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: twenty seven to six. This article went on to describe 306 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: Thorpe quote, he simply ran wild while the Cadets tried 307 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 1: in vain to stop his progress. It was like trying 308 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: to clutch a shadow. In addition to football and track 309 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: and field, Thorpe also competed in the Thing that Wins 310 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: My Heart in his story, ballroom dancing, and in nineteen 311 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: twelve he won the Intercollegiate ballroom Dancing Championship. But in 312 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: January of nineteen thirteen, everything fell apart, and we're going 313 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: to get to that. After a sponsor break. In January 314 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 1: of nineteen thirteen, the Wooster Telegram ran an interview with 315 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: coach Charles Clancy reporter Roy Ruggles. Johnson had been interviewing 316 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: Clancy and had noticed a picture of Jim Thorpe on 317 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: the wall, and the conversation that followed, Johnson learned that 318 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: Thorpe had been paid to play baseball. The published story 319 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 1: claimed that Thorpe had been paid to play baseball for 320 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: a team in Winston Salem, North Carolina. That was not true, 321 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 1: but as we talked about in Part one, Thorpe had 322 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: been paid about fifteen dollars a week to play baseball 323 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: and rock him out in Fayetteville, North Carolina, in the 324 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,959 Speaker 1: summers of nineteen o nine and nineteen ten. By the 325 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 1: strictest reading of the rules, the Olympic Games were for 326 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: amateur athletes. Thorpe had been paid to play baseball, which 327 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:51,360 Speaker 1: meant the most technical sense, he was a professional. At 328 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: the same time, these rules had a lot of gray area, 329 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: like college athletes who received free tuition or room and 330 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: board were still consider amateur, and that actually had a 331 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: whole lot more monetary value than Thorpe's fifteen dollars a 332 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: week playing baseball. Only baseball, boxing, and horse racing were 333 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: formally recognized as professional sports at the time. Semi professional ball, 334 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: where players were paid quote meal money, was also kind 335 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,719 Speaker 1: of a gray area. He basically was making a subsistence 336 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: to keep playing at that point. Also, while it does 337 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: seem as though Thorpe was hoping to translate that time 338 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: in semi pro baseball into a shot at the major leagues, 339 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 1: it does not seem to have occurred to him at 340 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: all that being paid to play baseball in nineteen o 341 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: nine and would have qualified him as a professional athlete 342 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: in track and field. Two or three years later, on 343 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: Pop Warner's advice, Thorpe wrote a letter to Mr James E. Sullivan, 344 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 1: the American Commissioner to the Olympic Games and secretary of 345 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: the Amateur Athletics Union, and this letter Thorpe wrote, quote 346 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: I was not very wise to the ways of the 347 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: world and did not re aalized that this was wrong 348 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: and it would make me a professional in the track sports. 349 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 1: Although I learned from the other players that it would 350 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: be better for me not to let anyone know that 351 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: I was playing, and for that reason I never told 352 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: anyone at the school about it until today. I never 353 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: realized until now what a big mistake I made by 354 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: keeping it a secret about my ball playing, and I 355 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: am sorry I did so. I hope I will be 356 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: partly excused by the fact that I was simply an 357 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: Indian schoolboy and did not know all about such things. 358 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: In fact, I did not know that I was doing 359 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: wrong because I was doing what I knew several other 360 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: college men had done, except that they had not used 361 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,719 Speaker 1: their own names. In the same letter, he wrote that 362 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: he hadn't been doing it for the money, but because 363 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: he liked to play ball, and he noted that he 364 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: had turned down many lucrative offers after the Olympic Games 365 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 1: were over because he wanted to remain an amateur. In 366 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 1: terms of this language about being simply an Indian schoolboy 367 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: from this letter, Thorpe was about when he wrote it, 368 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: and he was in his very early twenties during those 369 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: baseball seasons, so it doesn't really seem like a schoolboy 370 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: as one would think of it. At the same time, 371 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,880 Speaker 1: though Federal Indian policy was largely treating Indigenous people as 372 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: wards of the government and not as full citizens capable 373 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: of handling their own affairs, And even in his twenties, 374 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 1: Thorpe was being treated as a dependent by everyone from 375 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: Carlisle to the federal government. He was simply not being 376 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: treated as an adult, fully capable human person. This letter 377 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: was Thorpe's only opportunity to defend himself, and it did 378 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: not sway the Amateur Athletics Union. The a A used 379 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 1: response acknowledged that it had no direct authority over the 380 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: sport of baseball, before going on to say quote, the 381 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: American Olympic Committee and the Amateur Athletic Union feel that 382 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: while Thorpe is deserving of the severest condemnation for concealing 383 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: the fact that he had professionalized himself by receiving money 384 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: for playing baseball, they also feel that those who knew 385 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: of his professional acts are deserving of still greater censure 386 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: for their silence. The a AU apologize to the International 387 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: Olympics Committee and to the nations of the world for 388 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 1: entering Thorpe into the Olympics, before continuing quote, the Amateur 389 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: Athletics Union regrets that it permitted Thorpe to compete in 390 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: amateur contests during the past several years, and we'll do 391 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: everything in its power to secure the return of prizes 392 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: and readjustment of points won by him, and will immediately 393 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: eliminate his records from the books. The a AU retroactively 394 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: reclassified Jim Thorpe as a professional athlete. He had to 395 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: return his medals and the other trophies and awards that 396 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: he had been granted at the nineteen twelve Olympic Games. 397 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: The rankings for the events he had won were then adjusted, 398 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: with the previous silver medalists now in first place, the 399 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:02,120 Speaker 1: bronze medalists in second, in the fourth place finishers in third. 400 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: Although the newly designated first place winners did suggest that 401 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: they would not object to being returned to their former 402 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: ranking if this decision were overturned, they did not, as 403 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: has been widely reported, refused to accept on the grounds 404 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: of fairness. Although there were some supporters of the A 405 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: a U and I s U S decisions here, in general, 406 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 1: this was a wildly unpopular decision. Editorial cartoons lampooned the 407 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: io C. One, for example, illustrated Thorpe as a sacrificial goat, 408 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: being held down by a knife wielding Amateur Athletics Union 409 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: with a herd of other goats labeled summer ball players 410 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: off in the distance. This also led to a larger 411 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: discussion about what professionalism meant, with people noting the disparity 412 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: between athletes like Thorpe and college athletes on scholarships. There 413 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: was also a lot of discussion about things like purity 414 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: within the world of sports and it people should be 415 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 1: playing only for the sake of the sport itself and 416 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: not for money, and that led people to point out 417 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: that those kinds of definitions meant that the only people 418 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: who could pursue athletics or play in the Olympic Games 419 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: were the ones who were rich enough to do it 420 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: without getting paid for their work. Those that sided with 421 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: the a a U and IOC argued that American athleticism 422 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: in general was becoming too commercialized and professionalized. So this 423 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: decision has come to be viewed as a huge miscarriage 424 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: of justice, one that was influenced by racism and which 425 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 1: did not give Thorpe a real chance to defend himself, 426 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: and afterward his life changed dramatically. So this is to 427 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: me a real bummer of a place to take a break, 428 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: but we are going to talk about his life after 429 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: he could no longer be an amateur athlete in part three? 430 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 1: Do you have listener mail? Hopefully slightly more peppy. I 431 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: do have listener mail. Um. I would say it's peppier 432 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: because it's it's related to our Unearthed episodes, which tends 433 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: to be favorites. Uh. This is from Nan, and Nan 434 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: writes about the thing that we talked about in the 435 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: Unearthed episode about how the Norman Conquest affected people's diets, um, 436 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: which I didn't. We talked about it in the behind 437 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: the scenes, not in the Unearthed episode itself, because the 438 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: coverage of that report included some articles saying this change 439 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 1: diets dramatically and others that said this changed diets hardly 440 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: at all. Nan so helpfully did something I just did 441 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: not have the time and capacity to do, which is 442 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: to analyze the original paper. So Nan says, Hi, Holly 443 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: and Tracy, at some point in the Autumn Unearthed you 444 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: mentioned a study of diet across the Norman Conquest that 445 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: you didn't report on because you couldn't find popular articles 446 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: that gave you a clear story. Curiosity peaked. I looked 447 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: it up. Here's the skinny data from Oxford. Analysis of 448 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: lipids fat residue on pottery shows that before and after 449 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 1: folks were mostly eating cows deeping goats, however, rarely dairy 450 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: before but not after, rarely chicken and pork after but 451 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: not before. Speculation is that dairy might have shifted form 452 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: cheese or been stored and specialized vessels after conquest. Cabbage, 453 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: onions and friends, rassica, and alliums were important both before 454 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: and after the conquest. Toilet remains, pollen and charred stuff 455 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: indicate a wide variety of plant foods, including a variety 456 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 1: of cereal grains, broad beans, celery apple, black gray plums, 457 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: and summer savory. This didn't change with the conquest. Analysis 458 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: of heat exposure of pots and patterns of soot on 459 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 1: cooking surfaces suggests that post conquest pot cooking was slower, 460 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: that lower temperatures, pot placed above the fire rather than 461 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:51,239 Speaker 1: in it, and roasting became a thing. Preconquest pigs were 462 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: mainly herbivores and apparently sourced from different places and raised 463 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: using different practices. Post conquest piggies were omnivorous and had 464 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: more consistent diet. It's perhaps due to more consistent common 465 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: practice in their husbandry. Not much changed for cows across 466 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 1: the conquest. They were raised on all different kinds of 467 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 1: pasture before and after. Pre conquest, sheep and goats likely 468 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: came from all over to Oxford, with perhaps more local 469 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: sourcing afterwards, but there are other interpretations of the isotope data, 470 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: including more leaves in their diet. Based on herd demographics 471 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: pre conquest, sheep were raised first for wool, but afterwards 472 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: somewhere raised specifically for the meat market more single cohort demography. 473 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: Analysis of human diet from carbon and nitrogen isotopes show 474 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: much less varied diet post conquest, which the author's interpret 475 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: is greater control of the market economy by Norman authorities 476 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: and intensification of agriculture fertilizing with manure. Nitrogen values hint 477 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: at more meat consumption or just more pork consumption post conquest. 478 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: A number of individuals showed evidence of food and security 479 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: during growth, but that couldn't be linked directly to the 480 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: conquest or distinguished from thamine before or after the conquest. 481 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: Human dental disease and other diet related pathologies didn't change 482 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: much across the intervals, so you can see why different 483 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: someone's might report that the conquest changed things and didn't 484 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: love the show. Cheers, Nan, Thank you so much, Nan. 485 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: I do love to read original papers when I'm working 486 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: on these unearthed episodes. But um that it it. There 487 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: was just a lot, yes uh so, thank you so 488 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 1: so so much for putting together just such a lovely 489 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: and concise synopsis of what the paper was talking about 490 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: so we can share with everyone. Um, if you would 491 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: like to write to us about this or any other podcast, 492 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: we are at History Podcast at I heart radio dot 493 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: com and also all over social media ad miss in 494 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: History so you'll find our Facebook, Pinterest, Twitter, and Instagram, 495 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: and you can subscribe to our show on the I 496 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: heart radio app and Apple podcasts and any else you 497 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History Class is 498 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from 499 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 500 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H