Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast with Doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman, where we give you insights into the mind, brain, behavior,
Speaker 1: and creativity. Each episode will feature a new guest who
Speaker 1: will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding
Speaker 1: of yourself, others, and the world we live in. Hopefully
Speaker 1: we'll also provide a glimpse into human possibility. Thanks for
Speaker 1: listening and enjoy the podcast Today. I'm really excited to
Speaker 1: have Aj Jacobs on the show. Aj is a journalist, lecturer,
Speaker 1: human guinea pig, and author of four New York Times
Speaker 1: bestsellers that combine memoir, science, humor, and a dash of
Speaker 1: self help. He's also editor at large at a Squire magazine,
Speaker 1: a commentator on NPR, and a columnist for Mental Floss magazine.
Speaker 1: He is currently helping to build a family tree of
Speaker 1: the entire world world and holding the biggest family reunion ever.
Speaker 1: Have you held that biggest family reunion ever yet? Aj? Yes,
Speaker 1: that was in June and you were invited. You were
Speaker 1: absolutely because you are my cousin. Did I miss the
Speaker 1: Facebook event invite? Maybe maybe it was out there. It
Speaker 1: was out there, but it was fine. We'll have you
Speaker 1: next time. We had four thousand of your other cousins there,
Speaker 1: so it was it was a lovely event. You could literally,
Speaker 1: you know, be my brother here. I mean, we don't
Speaker 1: we don't look fundamentally dissimwhere Oh no, no, I mean
Speaker 1: the thesis of my new project is that we're all related.
Speaker 1: But I have a feeling I'm Jewish, you're Jewish, so
Speaker 1: we're probably are brothers or like you know, four iring
Speaker 1: to the model looks aspect simularity, but I'll go with
Speaker 1: the Jewish thing. Either one. They're kind of related. I
Speaker 1: like that. I like that. So we have so much
Speaker 1: we we could talk about common theme uniting a lot
Speaker 1: of things. You do is that you kind of treat
Speaker 1: your life as an experiment, or at least you did
Speaker 1: for a certain chunk of your life. Do you still
Speaker 1: view that as an ongoing thing? I do. I love
Speaker 1: that way of living, just trying new things and sometimes succeeding,
Speaker 1: sometimes failing. Being okay with either one. You're kind of
Speaker 1: like doing that before, Like Tim Ferriss even you know,
Speaker 1: said I'm treating my life as an experiment. You're kind
Speaker 1: of like the original life as an experimenter. I guess
Speaker 1: that's true, and Tim and I are friends from way back,
Speaker 1: and actually when he was writing his first book, The
Speaker 1: Four Hour work Week, I got a call from him
Speaker 1: and he's like, I'm a first time writer. I don't
Speaker 1: know what I'm doing. And he said, but he liked
Speaker 1: an article I had written an esquire called my Outsource
Speaker 1: to Life, where I had hired a team of people
Speaker 1: in Bangalore, India to do everything for me. So they
Speaker 1: answered my phone, answered my email, they argued with my
Speaker 1: wife for me. They read bedtime stories to my son.
Speaker 1: So it was a fantastic experience. So he said his
Speaker 1: book was on a similar topic. Could he reprint my article?
Speaker 1: He'd give me credit, but could he just reprint it?
Speaker 1: And I said, well, he seems like he's a nice
Speaker 1: young man. He's gonna sell like fourteen copies. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to charge him. I'm not going to charge him
Speaker 1: to reprint my article. And then cut to a year
Speaker 1: later and he calls me and he says, by the way,
Speaker 1: my notebook is number one on Amazon, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: what out of that? But it's actually turned out to
Speaker 1: be a great thing because a lot of his fans
Speaker 1: now know me as that guy in his book. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I actually I remember that story about outsourcing. That
Speaker 1: was it Bangladesh? Where was it Bangalore? Oh? Bangalore? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so yeah, it was a very it was a very
Speaker 1: nice experience. So let's talk. Let's do a little bit
Speaker 1: of a tour through the books of AJ Jacobs. So
Speaker 1: your first one is when I first encountered you. I
Speaker 1: was a first year grad student at Yale working under
Speaker 1: the mentorship of Robert Sternberg, and your book came out
Speaker 1: exactly that year. Yes, that was a book called The
Speaker 1: Know It All, and it was about how I decided
Speaker 1: my to read the Encyclopedia Britannica from A to Z
Speaker 1: and try to learn everything in the world. So that's
Speaker 1: what I did, and I've forgotten ninety nine percent of it,
Speaker 1: maybe ninety nine point five. But there's still some facts
Speaker 1: rattling around in my brain. So but yeah, especially all
Speaker 1: there encoded in some neuron somewhere. Oh really, you know
Speaker 1: it comes out in your dreams. Oh, okay, good to know.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I remember in my conscious memory. I
Speaker 1: don't know if it's the most useful fact, Like I
Speaker 1: remember that the possums have thirteen nipples, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: So I wish you know what actually did stick though.
Speaker 1: From that experience reading all of human history, I realized
Speaker 1: that the good old days were not good. The good
Speaker 1: old days were terrible. They were a disease ridden and
Speaker 1: life span was short, and they were smelly, They were sexist, homophobic,
Speaker 1: they were racid. They it was just horrible. And our
Speaker 1: nostalgia for this time, golden time, is totally misplaced. And
Speaker 1: that makes me feel bad. It's for me, it's very
Speaker 1: life affirming to realize, you know, I would now want
Speaker 1: to go back to the eighteen hundreds and get a
Speaker 1: smoke enema. That's just one example that that sounds horrible.
Speaker 1: Yeah it is. It's basically, you know, the phrase blows
Speaker 1: smoke up here, but yeah, this is where it came from.
Speaker 1: It was a procedure to like cure stomach aches and whatever,
Speaker 1: and they would literally blow tobacco smoke up up the butt.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. I don't know if amazing it was the
Speaker 1: right adjective of that. That's horrifying. Did you read all
Speaker 1: the volumes of these cycle? Did you literally read the
Speaker 1: whole thing? I did? I mean there was some skimming involved, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'll say that, yea, Well, you committed the whole thing
Speaker 1: to memory. It's not like your rain man. That's right exactly.
Speaker 1: I laid my eyes on every single word. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying every word was processed. Gotcha. Gotcha? So how were
Speaker 1: you fundamentally changed from that immediately after it was over? Like,
Speaker 1: you know, you said you've forgotten some things now, But
Speaker 1: how did you change for that experience? Well, the one
Speaker 1: I mentioned before where I became much more grateful for
Speaker 1: what I do have because seeing as the horrors of
Speaker 1: human history, that we've got a pretty good and we
Speaker 1: tend to forget that. I also, during the year, I
Speaker 1: got a little carried away because I was ingesting so
Speaker 1: much knowledge that my wife started to penalize me one
Speaker 1: dollar for every year relevant fact I inserted in conversation.
Speaker 1: So you know, she'd say, oh, I have a headache,
Speaker 1: and I would say, oh, did you know that the
Speaker 1: bay Or Aspirin Company invented heroin in eighteen ninety eight?
Speaker 1: And she would say, all right, that's a dollar. So
Speaker 1: after the project, I was able to cut way down
Speaker 1: on that kind of behavior. So, okay, So that was
Speaker 1: your first book, and you emailed my advisor, Robert Scherberg Greater,
Speaker 1: you know, in twenty thirteen, I think, or so maybe yes.
Speaker 1: That was one of my favorite interactions was your advisor
Speaker 1: is the expert on intelligence, and so I asked him
Speaker 1: what he thought of my project of trying to get
Speaker 1: smarter by reading the encyclopedia. He wrote back that it
Speaker 1: was one of the stupidest ideas he'd ever heard, and
Speaker 1: that just made my day. And I was able to
Speaker 1: put that in the book because she wants to hear like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's wonderful, you know, you know, want conflict for the book,
Speaker 1: so which I actually agree with. You know, that is
Speaker 1: not the best way to become intelligent. And what I
Speaker 1: like about him and others like him is that they
Speaker 1: don't say intelligence is one thing. That they're different types
Speaker 1: of intelligence. And you know far better than they what
Speaker 1: he said, because I'm not smart enough to remember it,
Speaker 1: but I do remember there's different types. It's not all
Speaker 1: the IQ. The IQ is way overrated. Well, Sternberg has
Speaker 1: a theory of all those theories have threes or in
Speaker 1: three parts. So his theory of creativity is you know,
Speaker 1: creative intelligence, practical and analytical. But then he has a
Speaker 1: theory of love, which is those three composents you just
Speaker 1: mentioned as well that hele and he is a theory
Speaker 1: of hate, which is the negation of those three. So
Speaker 1: on are the three parts of hate? Oh? I don't
Speaker 1: remember off the top of my head, unfortunately, but it's
Speaker 1: they literally are like the opposite adjectives for what, you know,
Speaker 1: like friendship the opposite of friendship, you know, attraction the
Speaker 1: opposite of yes, look up his theory. All right, well,
Speaker 1: I hope he doesn't hate me in any of those ways.
Speaker 1: Sure he doesn't. I'm trying to remember. I think I
Speaker 1: may have assessinated to him once something about you, and
Speaker 1: I think you're for you as well intentioned. That is
Speaker 1: such a delightfully condescending think to say, I'm but I
Speaker 1: can't pull it completely or don't quote me on that.
Speaker 1: But all right, well if he did say if he
Speaker 1: did say that, then I love it seemed to something
Speaker 1: like that. You might not have all said you're nice.
Speaker 1: But that's boring, right, So okay, so we why do
Speaker 1: you do that? First of all? Why do you do that? Book?
Speaker 1: That was partly because there was a bit of an
Speaker 1: edible component. My father started to read the encyclopedia when
Speaker 1: I was a kid, but he didn't quite finish. He
Speaker 1: made up to the middle of the letter B around Bolivia,
Speaker 1: and so I thought, why not try to finish what
Speaker 1: he began and remove that black marks from our family history.
Speaker 1: So that was part of it, and he was a
Speaker 1: big character in the book. But part of it was
Speaker 1: just to try to figure out what does it mean
Speaker 1: to be smart? What is the difference between knowledge and wisdom?
Speaker 1: Oh that's a good one too, yeah, Stuber guy's a
Speaker 1: theory of wisdom as well. Oh yeah, parts, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: do you remember what those are? Yeah, but his theory
Speaker 1: of wiz so one central component is your ability to
Speaker 1: balance your own personal needs versus the needs of society
Speaker 1: in general. And some people have argue with, oh good,
Speaker 1: I'm glad you like that. A lot of some people
Speaker 1: argue that doesn't really capture what is like people tend
Speaker 1: to really think of wisdom, you know, in the everyday parlance. Huh.
Speaker 1: But for him, that's the important part of the balancing act. Well,
Speaker 1: I think that that is one of the secrets to
Speaker 1: being an ethical person is to be so I would
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's wisdom, but I like it.
Speaker 1: I think about it a lot because, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I think for the first thirty years of my life,
Speaker 1: I was obsessed with my own personal happiness. Oh interesting,
Speaker 1: thirty years, thirty years, maybe forty, maybe forty seven, forty
Speaker 1: I'm forty seven now. But I think I'm hoping to
Speaker 1: I'm attempting to think about more than just my own happiness.
Speaker 1: And the irony is I'm sure I'm not the first
Speaker 1: to point this out, that the more you think about
Speaker 1: other people's happiness, the more personally happy you are. That's right,
Speaker 1: that's true. That's true. Well, I feel that when you
Speaker 1: think about other people's happiness and you force yourself to
Speaker 1: do that, you're less obsessed with yourself, and so there's
Speaker 1: less pressure on you to have the perfect life because
Speaker 1: you know it's not just all about you. Okay, So
Speaker 1: after you were attempted to improve your mind, you then
Speaker 1: turned to the spirits world. Why did you decide to
Speaker 1: live a year biblically? Well, this came about because I
Speaker 1: grew up with no religion at all, so not bar
Speaker 1: mitsvad nothing, no satyrs. No. I am Jewish, as you know,
Speaker 1: but as I say in the book, I'm Jewish, but
Speaker 1: I'm Jewish in the same way the Olive garden is Italian?
Speaker 1: Do you say that in the book, I do no
Speaker 1: offense to the olive garden? No, that makes so much sense. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's very much the water down cultural person. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I knew nothing about it. But I had a kid
Speaker 1: and I wanted to know what to teach him about
Speaker 1: my heritage. But am I missing anything by not having
Speaker 1: this or is it all a bunch of hooey? So
Speaker 1: I thought, why not live like the Bible says, like
Speaker 1: actually follow in the footsteps, the santal steps of our forefathers,
Speaker 1: and see what improves my life and what does the opposite?
Speaker 1: So tell me one from each category like he's still
Speaker 1: viewers or the ass and they're not viewers listeners. Well,
Speaker 1: what I did was I followed every rule, so I wasn't.
Speaker 1: I followed the ten commandments and loved your neighbor. But
Speaker 1: I also followed the Bible says you cannot shave the
Speaker 1: corners of your beard. I didn't know where the corners were,
Speaker 1: so I just let the whole thing grow. I saw
Speaker 1: pictures of that. Yeah, yeah, I had some topiary on
Speaker 1: my chow. I spent time at airport security. That is
Speaker 1: the truth. But to your question, one thing I think
Speaker 1: that did help me that actually ties into positive psychology,
Speaker 1: which is your expertise. It's just the idea of gratitude,
Speaker 1: which was in the Bible. So this is one from
Speaker 1: the helpful, and then I'll go to the not helpful,
Speaker 1: because the Bible is very clear it says you should
Speaker 1: be grateful for everything, and I took that very literally.
Speaker 1: So I would set every little moment in my life,
Speaker 1: I would try to get in the elevator and I'd
Speaker 1: be grateful that it didn't plummet to the basement. That's
Speaker 1: me every day. I guess I've been unknowingly living biblically
Speaker 1: being neurotic. Well, yeah, and I think you are. You
Speaker 1: are living biblically. But I would say there's a little
Speaker 1: difference between being neurotic and being grateful, like they're kind
Speaker 1: of the opposite. Like focusing on the being grateful. I mean,
Speaker 1: every second that goes by, I haven't died. I'm grateful
Speaker 1: I haven't died. I mean that's I feel like that's
Speaker 1: the great way to live. Though that's not neurotic. I
Speaker 1: don't know you're you're the expert, but yeah, I actually
Speaker 1: think that that is a fun way to live. I'm
Speaker 1: going to reframe that. I'm going to reframe that as
Speaker 1: a gratitude. You know, I used to teach, you know,
Speaker 1: when I used to be a professor in NYU, I
Speaker 1: used to joke around my students like I'd feel like
Speaker 1: my heart like like heartburn or something like everyone, I
Speaker 1: think this is it. I think it's it. And then
Speaker 1: I'd be like, wait, no, it wasn't it. Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: very grateful, very grateful lot. You know, like my students
Speaker 1: kind of found that hilarious, Like every little thing. I'm like, hey, guys,
Speaker 1: I think this is it, and then you know, I
Speaker 1: love it. Maybe there you need to be scared every day.
Speaker 1: You need to have like a fake heart attack every day,
Speaker 1: just remind yourself, well, you know what actually Maslow? Ye
Speaker 1: are you familiar with Abraham Maslow. I've been bringing a
Speaker 1: lot of his work in his unpublished journals, and he
Speaker 1: wrote about that. He talked, he talked. He called them
Speaker 1: plateau experiences. He said, you know, we get to a
Speaker 1: point in life where not everything has to be so
Speaker 1: this kind of like transcend an amazing sort of feeling.
Speaker 1: But we can have these plateaux experiences where we just
Speaker 1: are constantly, you know, like appreciative of that moment in
Speaker 1: a way that we like think to ourselves, like what
Speaker 1: would it be if we didn't have that person in
Speaker 1: our life? For what would be if? You know? I
Speaker 1: like that. He called it like he wishes we could
Speaker 1: kill people and have them come back and they would
Speaker 1: appreciate life so much more and stuff like that. I
Speaker 1: love that idea. Well, yeah, I mean I think that's it.
Speaker 1: Appreciating the really mundane moments and turning them into the
Speaker 1: sacred moments. That's one of the things I learned. And
Speaker 1: by the way, I was just I don't think I
Speaker 1: can do it because I can't travel, but a magazine
Speaker 1: editor wanted to assign me a piece. Apparently in Korea
Speaker 1: they have these You can spend ten thousand dollars and
Speaker 1: have a fake funeral for yourself no way. And the
Speaker 1: idea is that once you finish the funeral, you'll be
Speaker 1: more grateful for life. So there's Maslow's idea in practice. Wait, wait,
Speaker 1: do you fool everyone like friends and family and you're
Speaker 1: thinking you're really dead too? No, that would be horrible,
Speaker 1: But I mean that's an idea. If you want to
Speaker 1: pursue that I think it would. Technically it would be horrible.
Speaker 1: It would be horrible, but it would give you a
Speaker 1: chance to really see what people think of you. That's
Speaker 1: so true. That's so true. Well, yeah, actually I do remember.
Speaker 1: I think this was in the Encyclopedia. P. T. Barnum
Speaker 1: faked his own death so that he could read his obituary.
Speaker 1: He wanted what it was like, so he died and
Speaker 1: then came back to life. Amazing. That sounds so Pet,
Speaker 1: was it? T. Barnham? Yeah, it sounds it is. Absolutely Yeah.
Speaker 1: I bet everyone was just like, oh, PT. Like when
Speaker 1: he came back and he's like, I'm back, Everyone's like,
Speaker 1: oh Pet again, a new stick. PT. That guy like
Speaker 1: every day I knew a new stick, right. But he
Speaker 1: was fascinating character. I mean in terms of inventing, helping
Speaker 1: to invent modern celebrity and reality. Tell him he's basically
Speaker 1: doing real reality television. One hundred years ago, you probably
Speaker 1: would have run for president of the United States and excellent,
Speaker 1: And I'd say once he got elected as suckers born
Speaker 1: every minute. That sounds familiar, That sounds very familiar. Yes,
Speaker 1: I think that he has had a big influence on
Speaker 1: our current political states. Perhaps. Okay, so let's move on
Speaker 1: from the spirit world. Did I ask you what major
Speaker 1: lessons you learned from that, Well, the one was gratitude,
Speaker 1: another was well, one was that not to take the
Speaker 1: Bible completely literally. We learn from taking it literally. That's
Speaker 1: kind of an important lesson, And honestly, that was part
Speaker 1: of the motivation. Is because there are millions of people
Speaker 1: around the world who take the Bible literally. So they
Speaker 1: say that the Bible says that homosexuality is evil, so
Speaker 1: therefore it is evil. And my point was, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're taking parts of the Bible literally, but let's take
Speaker 1: what if you the whole thing literally. The Bible also
Speaker 1: says that, you know, shrimp is an abomination, so you
Speaker 1: can't eat shrimp. The Bible says you can't wear clothes
Speaker 1: of mixed fibers, so get rid of all of your
Speaker 1: polycotton blends. The Bible says, stone adulterer. So that's what
Speaker 1: I did. I went out and I stoned an adulterer.
Speaker 1: I uh, you end up in jail. No, because I
Speaker 1: use very very small stones like pebbles. Okay, So that's
Speaker 1: that was my work around. So in twenty and twelve,
Speaker 1: you publish Drop Dead Healthy one man's humble All these
Speaker 1: are humble quests, by the way, very humble for bodily perfection. Now,
Speaker 1: what did you do to your body between before and after?
Speaker 1: Do we have before and after pictures? We do? We do?
Speaker 1: Can I google that right now and see that. I'm
Speaker 1: afraid you can. You don't want to though, you don't
Speaker 1: want to see them before it's not pleasant. Before and after? Yeah,
Speaker 1: trap dead healthy. So as we talk about this, I
Speaker 1: want to look at this on the screen. Okay, So
Speaker 1: tell me what pounds to What pounds did you go to?
Speaker 1: What else changed? Cholesterol levels changed, things like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that whole traditional, But I actually I didn't just want
Speaker 1: to focus on that. I wanted to revamp every part
Speaker 1: of my life. So it was diet and exercise, of course,
Speaker 1: but also stress levels and sleep and my sex life.
Speaker 1: But yeah, my posture, the way I went to the
Speaker 1: bathroom that changed. So yeah, every aspect. How much have
Speaker 1: you kept from that? I have kept not everything, because
Speaker 1: if I kept everything, like that's basically your entire life
Speaker 1: is staying healthy if you follow everything that doctors recommend.
Speaker 1: So but I have kept a few. I still do
Speaker 1: love the idea of walking as much as possible. So
Speaker 1: I have a treadmill and I write on my treadmill.
Speaker 1: So I'm a treadmill desker, you know that movement. And
Speaker 1: I do. I do eat. You know, I'm not crazy
Speaker 1: about it, but I try to not eat processed foods.
Speaker 1: One little good heuristic rule of thumb is eat from
Speaker 1: the fridge, not from the cabinet, because the fridge has
Speaker 1: the real food that rots. Anything that rots is good
Speaker 1: for you. So I do try to stay away from
Speaker 1: my cabinet. How much weight did you lose? I think
Speaker 1: I lost like twenty five pounds. Nothing crazy, I mean
Speaker 1: I am about five eleven. But yeah, you're looking the
Speaker 1: before picture picture and you don't. I mean, you stuck
Speaker 1: your stomach out, but you still look skinny. To me,
Speaker 1: you look skinny, I mean even before. Well you're nice
Speaker 1: to say, but no, I was. You know, my wife
Speaker 1: called me like four months pregnant. I looked like I
Speaker 1: was skinny fat, So I looked like a snake that
Speaker 1: has swallowed a goat. Right, you were skinny, but you
Speaker 1: looked like you swallowed. It's exactly right, exactly what you said. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like a big like bell curve right in the
Speaker 1: middle of it's tummy. Absolutely, but what a great thing.
Speaker 1: I mean by doing all these things, you're doing self improvement.
Speaker 1: You're what a great excuse to improve yourself, right, And
Speaker 1: that is the idea. Yeah, and I don't keep you know.
Speaker 1: That's the idea is I try all these things and
Speaker 1: some improve my life, some make my life much more miserable.
Speaker 1: But then after the book I can get rid of
Speaker 1: the ones that make my life miserable. But you are
Speaker 1: keeping some of the healthy habits. Oh yeah, I definitely do.
Speaker 1: I mean I also you know there are studies about alcohol.
Speaker 1: One drink a day is correlated to a longer life.
Speaker 1: Now we know correlation doesn't imply causation, but still I
Speaker 1: like the correlation. So I have at least one drink
Speaker 1: a day. Wow. Well that's that's good, good justification there, Yes,
Speaker 1: that is part of it. So now I basically I'm
Speaker 1: browsing Google all Google images pictures of you, and Justin
Speaker 1: Bieber just popped up. I don't know why that happened.
Speaker 1: I think I did once write a tweet about him
Speaker 1: and got some angry tweets from his followers. You know,
Speaker 1: I try to remain very positive. That was one of
Speaker 1: the lessons of the Bible book. But sometimes you know,
Speaker 1: like I'm only human, I had to I had to
Speaker 1: make some comment from love, from the point position of
Speaker 1: love about justin exactly. Okay, so let's let's move on
Speaker 1: to not your latest book, but a book that may
Speaker 1: people may not be aware of, which I loved and
Speaker 1: that it was what it feels like. Wow, I'm impressed.
Speaker 1: I bought it for literally a penny used on Amazon.
Speaker 1: I'm just being honest. I love your honesty about five
Speaker 1: six years ago in New York, and I devoured it
Speaker 1: because I thought, wow, I actually I don't know, You're
Speaker 1: probably not gonna believe me. But before I saw that book,
Speaker 1: I thought to myself, how cool would it be to
Speaker 1: do a book where I go around and ask people
Speaker 1: like what it's like to do very wow? I know,
Speaker 1: I know, I thought it would be such a cool idea.
Speaker 1: And then I saw that book. I wasn't in the
Speaker 1: least like like Jacobs, you know, like I was just
Speaker 1: like so excited that you did it, and that like
Speaker 1: that someone did it. You know, Well, there's like hundreds
Speaker 1: of more experiences, So feel free to do a follow up,
Speaker 1: because I just always think to myself, you know, like
Speaker 1: I don't want to really do some of those things,
Speaker 1: but I would love to know what I'm missing out on. Right.
Speaker 1: It is fascinating. It's very voyeuristic, but it's a wonderful,
Speaker 1: as you say, it's wonderful to see what it really
Speaker 1: is like. And they ranged from the most extreme experiences
Speaker 1: and they could be either good or they could be bad.
Speaker 1: So what it feels like to be in an avalanche,
Speaker 1: what it feels like to be shot, to walk on
Speaker 1: the moon, shot in the head, shot in the head.
Speaker 1: That is right, it doesn't feel great, apparently. One that
Speaker 1: I loved I still think about all the time is
Speaker 1: what it feels like to be almost eight feet tall
Speaker 1: this basketball player who is like seven foot nine, And
Speaker 1: I just loved it because he said that it's a
Speaker 1: dirty world up there, like when you look at the
Speaker 1: top of people's fridges that they never clean, and the
Speaker 1: ledges over doorways, and I just love that because it's
Speaker 1: like something you'd never think about. But yeah, of course
Speaker 1: he's seeing the world from a totally different point of view,
Speaker 1: and it's dirty. It's so funny. Yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember if any other one stuck out
Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, this thing of winning the lottery that
Speaker 1: stuck up. Oh, yes, I think it didn't work out
Speaker 1: so well for him, which I think, is it? Well?
Speaker 1: That was consistent with a lot of positive psychology, like
Speaker 1: we returned to baseline, you know, right, right? But also
Speaker 1: everyone wants did you say something like everyone would just
Speaker 1: want something from me? Yes? I spend way too much
Speaker 1: time thinking about what I would do if I won
Speaker 1: the lottery, and I think I've figured it out. What
Speaker 1: is it? Well? I would say, right up front, I
Speaker 1: am keeping ten percent and the rest of the ninety
Speaker 1: percent is going into a charitable foundation run by this guy,
Speaker 1: and then I'd hire someone like you. I'll hire you
Speaker 1: to run it so that no one can ask me
Speaker 1: for money. I'm like, they asked me for money. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't have any control over it. This guy got
Speaker 1: talked to this guy brilliant and then sort a foundation. Yeah. Foundation.
Speaker 1: I don't know why I didn't think of that work,
Speaker 1: but yes, the foundation, and then like you could enjoy
Speaker 1: your ten percent, right without having feeling guilt or having
Speaker 1: people you know asking you for it. You know, I
Speaker 1: just got another thought, and as I hear like someone
Speaker 1: like basically like stealing our car outside your window or
Speaker 1: something was this New York City. Yeah, it's real life.
Speaker 1: Or maybe it's just sound effects. I have a it'
Speaker 1: sound like like smashing open the window and then like
Speaker 1: the alarm going off and like driving away like that.
Speaker 1: I have my headphones on, so I can't even hear. Oh. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I hear it now, I hear it now. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I wanted to give you give the audience like some
Speaker 1: some background environment. Yeah, okay, so let's talk about your
Speaker 1: next book, which is your newest book. It's not out yet, correct,
Speaker 1: that's right. I am writing it as we speak. As
Speaker 1: we speak, and you're on a treadmill as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like to. Yeah. You know, what I often fantasize
Speaker 1: about is that dolphins sleep with half their brain at
Speaker 1: a time, so they can still function while they're sleeping.
Speaker 1: So that's been my fantasy forever. It's like to be
Speaker 1: able to sleep and still write my books. But that
Speaker 1: hasn't happened. That sounds amazing. That makes So your new
Speaker 1: book is about how we're all related, that's right. And
Speaker 1: this one started because I got about two years ago,
Speaker 1: I got an email from this guy, and he said,
Speaker 1: you don't know me, but I'm your twelfth cousin. And
Speaker 1: of course I thought the next line's going to be,
Speaker 1: here's my bank account in Nigeria, please send ten thousand
Speaker 1: dollars immediately, But he didn't. You know, he was for
Speaker 1: real and he's part of this group of people who
Speaker 1: are building a family tree of the entire world. It's
Speaker 1: just a wild revolution happening. And it's happening because of
Speaker 1: DNA testing. It's happening because of the Internet where people
Speaker 1: are combining their trees, sort of like a Wikipedia version
Speaker 1: of family trees, where millions are working on it at
Speaker 1: the same time. And I love it. So I'm on
Speaker 1: the biggest tree, which is right now about one hundred
Speaker 1: and five million people, and I'm related to I can
Speaker 1: see how I'm related to almost anyone in the world,
Speaker 1: like Barack Obama. He is my fifth grade aunt's husband's
Speaker 1: brothers wife's seventh great nephew. So serious. Yeah, that's the
Speaker 1: one I memorized memoriz the wall. But yeah, you related
Speaker 1: to Stephen Pinker. I am. I'm actually very close to
Speaker 1: Stephen Pinker because we both did DNA tests. So I
Speaker 1: think we're about third or fourth cousins. Wow, he just
Speaker 1: recently did one of our imagination retreats, did eight. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're having we'll be releasing a video about that soon.
Speaker 1: But I want to watch that. Yeah, I'll tell you
Speaker 1: when it's up. But yeah, well that's that's cool. You know,
Speaker 1: there're the whole Jewish thing there. Yeah, that makes it easier.
Speaker 1: But even non Jews, Barbara Bush, what about Barbara Bush?
Speaker 1: Barbara Bush is my relative for sure. I can't remember
Speaker 1: our exact I can look it up right now if
Speaker 1: you want. But yeah, we're all the farthest. According to
Speaker 1: an MIT study, the farthest cousin you have on Earth
Speaker 1: by blood is about a seventieth cousin. So we share
Speaker 1: ninety nine point nine percent of our DNA and that
Speaker 1: and that's kind of the big message, is that we
Speaker 1: are so remarkably similar that this tribal mentality we have
Speaker 1: is kind of crazy, and that there is no us
Speaker 1: versus them. It's just us. It's just that's it. So
Speaker 1: I like that, and I like the spirit of that.
Speaker 1: But why is it that even with such genetic similarity,
Speaker 1: even that one percent of genetic variation called at that point, well,
Speaker 1: how is it that point one percent of differences causes
Speaker 1: some seemingly dramatic delete different personality traits from like Stalin
Speaker 1: to mother Teresa, Like, explain that for me, that is
Speaker 1: a great point. Yes they are, they are, maybe not
Speaker 1: Stalin is is part of the family, but maybe he
Speaker 1: didn't realize it. I think we've got if he had,
Speaker 1: maybe if we had just showed him how similar he was,
Speaker 1: then maybe he would have acted a little better. And
Speaker 1: maybe not. But I actually think, you know, it's not
Speaker 1: going to cure all racism and war. There's still going
Speaker 1: to be tribalism, but I do think that it might
Speaker 1: nudge us in the right direction. And I'm not alone
Speaker 1: in this. There's one of my real cousins. There's a
Speaker 1: behavioral economists and professor named Cass Sunstein. Do you know
Speaker 1: Cass too, And we're trying to get him to be
Speaker 1: actually in one of our retreats as well. Oh, you
Speaker 1: would be sad, like he's a genius. But anyway, he
Speaker 1: came up with this idea of the family bias, where
Speaker 1: you do treat people who you know our family, even
Speaker 1: if they're distant relatives, you treat them better than you
Speaker 1: treat a stranger. So the idea would be to hijack
Speaker 1: this family bias and apply it to everyone in the world.
Speaker 1: But you're right, it's not going to solve everything. You're
Speaker 1: still going to have psychotics like Stalin, but it's not
Speaker 1: going to hurt. It's going to hope. Not psychotics, I
Speaker 1: mean psychopaths, psycho Well, what that is interesting is what
Speaker 1: is a psychotic psychotic that's to doue with more schizophrenia.
Speaker 1: Those are people who have hallucinations. But it's very What
Speaker 1: about what's the difference between psychopath and sociopath? Now that's
Speaker 1: a good question, and a lot of that has to
Speaker 1: do with just how the term has been used. You know, Vernacorn,
Speaker 1: sociopath is not used in modern day science anymore. It's
Speaker 1: psychopath because it's acknowledged that a psychopath is who they
Speaker 1: are as a mix of nature and nurture. The sociopath
Speaker 1: idea is an old idea that there are these people
Speaker 1: that strictly because they were abused, you know, they grew
Speaker 1: up to be who they are, you know, or because
Speaker 1: of horrible experiences. But we really have increased our knowledge
Speaker 1: of psychopaths at this point. By the way, I recommend
Speaker 1: those who are interest in this. Listeners to listen to
Speaker 1: the podcast I do with Ken kil called What Is
Speaker 1: It Like to Be a Psychopath? So but is it really? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought I plugged that. I talk about everything that
Speaker 1: whole topic with him in the early podcast. Yeah. Wow,
Speaker 1: all right, I'm going to go listen. Awesome. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: he's he's like the world's leading expert on the neuroscience
Speaker 1: of psychopathy and so that's fascinating. Now can we sall?
Speaker 1: Do you think and if humans survive for five hundred years,
Speaker 1: will we be able to rewire the brain so that
Speaker 1: anyone who is born with psychopathic tendencies will be able
Speaker 1: to be rewired and be just fine. Well, the broader
Speaker 1: question about whether or not we can get to the
Speaker 1: point where we can use technologies to change traits that
Speaker 1: we have, so not just psychopathy. Like, once we crack
Speaker 1: the nut of being able to change traits, then that
Speaker 1: opens it up. We can include psychopathy in that, right, Right,
Speaker 1: that's an interesting question and we're already doing that. We've
Speaker 1: already found what you know, what do you think SSRIs
Speaker 1: are doing? Right? Like at a smaller scale, not as dramatically,
Speaker 1: but there's a technique called DSc where you can stimulate
Speaker 1: the brain and shut off half the brain basically, and
Speaker 1: and it's it's supposedly cures depression, you know. And now
Speaker 1: which one is that? Is that the trans cranial GDS
Speaker 1: transcernal drug stimulation? Yeah? And is that is that real?
Speaker 1: Does that have science? Yeah? We're funding you know, we're
Speaker 1: funding on a project right now. We'll get with two
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand dollars to use tDSC to see
Speaker 1: if people were more creative after afterwards. Now do you do?
Speaker 1: You do it yourself? I've never tried it. No, I've
Speaker 1: never tried it. What would be the downside? It sounds
Speaker 1: like if no, there is no doubt I would try it.
Speaker 1: It's it's non invasive, it's not long lasting. I certainly
Speaker 1: would try it. And the idea is that maybe someday
Speaker 1: that it would be like a thinking cap you could
Speaker 1: buy a Walmart or something. I love it all right,
Speaker 1: I'm in cool. So this new book I'm in in
Speaker 1: terms of buying that book sounds absolutely fascinating. And do
Speaker 1: you have a title for it yet? It's tentatively called
Speaker 1: It's all relative? Yeah, I know that's good. I'm not
Speaker 1: a big fun fan but one man's humble quest to
Speaker 1: what unite the world in one big family. So it'll
Speaker 1: be it'll be about that, but it'll also be about
Speaker 1: you know, the idea we're all one family, but also
Speaker 1: family structures, like is there an ideal family structure is
Speaker 1: or I just spent a couple of days hanging out
Speaker 1: with Polyamory Support Group of New York, which is this
Speaker 1: idea of having multiple parents and multiple kids like sort
Speaker 1: of a group family? And is that better worse? The same?
Speaker 1: As complicated? Well, you know what I they say, It's
Speaker 1: the hardest part is the logistics, like you have to
Speaker 1: seriously know your Google calendar, like if you've got multiple lovers,
Speaker 1: Like you know, that's where it gets complicated if you
Speaker 1: have multiple lovers. But it's not as complicated if it's
Speaker 1: a family, is what you're saying. No, No, it is
Speaker 1: definitely it's complicated because yeah, you know, there's even the
Speaker 1: terminology like you've got mom and dad, but then you've
Speaker 1: there's Mema and Poppy and so everyone has their own name. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, what's the fun in having such a complicated
Speaker 1: family situation where you can barely even like have meaning
Speaker 1: in one person? Well, I am not their spokesman, but
Speaker 1: I will say what I think they would say is
Speaker 1: that it takes a village. You know, the more, the merrier,
Speaker 1: and the more love in the house, the better. The
Speaker 1: more people you have guiding you the better. Why arbitrarily
Speaker 1: just choose two people to raise you when you can
Speaker 1: have seven? Okay, okay, let's move on. Let's move on
Speaker 1: from that. Okay, okay, okay, cool. So is there anything
Speaker 1: else you know? We can conclude this. You've been so
Speaker 1: gracious with your time, and I really, gosh, I really
Speaker 1: enjoy chatting with you, Aj. We could go on and on.
Speaker 1: I know, I'm it's late so that I feel I'm
Speaker 1: I'm rambling, But you didn't. You were worried that you
Speaker 1: would ramble, but you were sharp. Well, thanks, but I
Speaker 1: found you non rambling. I just enjoyed it. I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: Is there anything we you know, we kind of did
Speaker 1: a tour of AJ Jacobs and your books and stuff.
Speaker 1: Is there anything else you want to add at this
Speaker 1: point about what you're currently working on or anything. I'm
Speaker 1: trying to think. No, I don't think. So I wrote.
Speaker 1: Let's say my latest base in Esquire was about how
Speaker 1: I was in the hospital. I tripped and fell and
Speaker 1: fell on my face like an idiot. But the big
Speaker 1: lesson from my stay at the hospital was to be
Speaker 1: a little more proactive because they put you in that
Speaker 1: hospital gown that barely covers your butt, and I found
Speaker 1: it's so dehumanizing. And I said, do I have to
Speaker 1: put this on? And they're like, well, it's strongly recommended,
Speaker 1: and I was like, yeah, but legally I have to
Speaker 1: put it on. And they're like, well, now I can't
Speaker 1: make you. And I was like great, And I wore
Speaker 1: my sweatshirt and I wore my sweatpants and I felt
Speaker 1: one hundred times better. And there's a movement, it turns
Speaker 1: out of doctors who say, got to get rid of
Speaker 1: the hospital gown. For most patients. Some patients need it
Speaker 1: because they need the doctors, need immediate access to their
Speaker 1: back or whatever. But for a lot of patients, you
Speaker 1: don't need it, and you feel so much better. So
Speaker 1: that's that hashtag hashtag for this. No, but let's start
Speaker 1: one ditch the gown. But anyway, AJ was absolutely delightful
Speaker 1: talking to you. Thank you. I loved it. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Psychology podcast. With doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barak Kaufman. I hope you found this episode just to
Speaker 1: stop for booking and interesting as I did. If you'd
Speaker 1: like to read the show notes for this episode or
Speaker 1: hear past episodes, you can visit the Psychology Podcast dot
Speaker 1: com