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Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I am Akshadarrati. This week Tesla's road

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Speaker 1: to irrelevance. There's a lot to say about Tesla. It's

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Speaker 1: the world's most valuable auto company, and it's a big

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Speaker 1: player in the electric vehicle market, and of course it's

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Speaker 1: run by a loud man with a talent for provocation.

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Speaker 1: Elon Musk is always in the news and so is Tesla.

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Speaker 1: But on this episode we want to take a step

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Speaker 1: away from the spectacle and look more closely at Tesla,

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Speaker 1: the business and its role in putting us all in

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Speaker 1: electric cars. The transition to electric vehicles is fully in motion.

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Speaker 1: Global EV sales in the last six years have risen

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Speaker 1: from two million to fourteen million. Meanwhile, Tesla is moving

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Speaker 1: away from producing low cost electric vehicles and signaling that

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Speaker 1: it wants to be an AI company, not a car company.

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Speaker 1: So what's really going on? And at this point, if

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Speaker 1: Tesla doesn't succeed, would it be catastrophic for the transition

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Speaker 1: to electric vehicles or would it not matter? To answer

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Speaker 1: those questions, I talk to someone whose columns I read

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Speaker 1: to try to make sense of Tesla. Bloomberg Opinion columnist

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Speaker 1: Liam Denning has been following the company's fortunes For quite

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Speaker 1: some time. We talked about Tesla's latest pivot away from

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Speaker 1: cheaper evs, it's long promised robotaxis, and where in the

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Speaker 1: world Tesla still remains vital. Liam, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Now, Liam, let's just start with the bare bones story

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Speaker 1: of Tesla. But Elon Musk first became an investor in

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Speaker 1: the company in two thousand and four and then took

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Speaker 1: over a CEO in two thousand and eight. At the start,

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Speaker 1: he focused on making a luxury sedan for Tesla, sort

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Speaker 1: of get the cool factor, but his long term plan

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Speaker 1: was always to use that cool factor to try and

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Speaker 1: make a mass market EV So now we're a decade

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Speaker 1: into that era. What has happened is that other auto

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Speaker 1: companies have taken a queue from Tesla and have gotten

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Speaker 1: into the EV game. So Tesla is now fighting two tides. One,

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Speaker 1: the demand for EV's is not growing as fast as

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Speaker 1: it was in the past, and two, buyers on the

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Speaker 1: market now have more choices, not just Tesla, and that

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Speaker 1: means in the short term Tesla has lower profits, it's

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Speaker 1: missing sales goals, and its share price is falling. That

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Speaker 1: has made you know, unmask me series of dramatic decisions recently,

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Speaker 1: could you just drop us through what they are and

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Speaker 1: why they matter.

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Speaker 3: So this is really a story of the last eighteen

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Speaker 3: months or so, and what we've seen happen is sales

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Speaker 3: of Tesla evs have slowed quite a bit, culminating in

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Speaker 3: the rather shocking dropping sales in the first quarter. And

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Speaker 3: this has been going on against the background of Tesla

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Speaker 3: actually cutting the prices of its vehicles to move them.

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Speaker 3: And this is a problem that is actually fairly familiar

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Speaker 3: to the Legacy also his business. Right, they're constantly battling

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Speaker 3: with low margins, inventory building up, the need to discount sales,

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Speaker 3: missing sales targets, that sort of thing. The difficulty is

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Speaker 3: the Legacy automakers trade at something like you know, five, six,

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Speaker 3: seven times earnings, whereas Tessa's more like fifty times earnings.

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Speaker 3: So Tesla needs a growth story and that growth story

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Speaker 3: has just become less and less credible over the past

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Speaker 3: eighteen months. And I think that is why we've seen

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Speaker 3: the story shift or the narrative around the stock, and

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Speaker 3: particularly coming from Elon Musk himself, shifting much more heavily

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Speaker 3: in favor of this idea of vehicle autonomy, robotaxis shorthand,

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Speaker 3: and this event that has suddenly been announced for August

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Speaker 3: eighth with a quote unquote ROBOTAXI reveal. Now, this is

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Speaker 3: not to say that that story wasn't out there for

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Speaker 3: a long time. I think anyone who's followed this company

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Speaker 3: over the years knows that Elon Musk has set a

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Speaker 3: goal after goal, deadline after deadline when it comes to robotaxes,

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Speaker 3: and you know they've all been missed. So it's been

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Speaker 3: out there for a while. But right now, given the

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Speaker 3: pressure on the core ev business, the robotaxing narrative is

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Speaker 3: even more central to maintaining tells US valuation, right, So take.

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Speaker 1: It one by one. You talked about how Tesla share

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Speaker 1: trades at a multiple that's way higher now you know

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Speaker 1: for people who don't follow business news day in and

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Speaker 1: day out. You know, price to earnings ratio is something

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Speaker 1: that investors use as a shorthand to make decisions about

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Speaker 1: which company to invest in or which company to pull

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Speaker 1: money out of. And so we have some numbers to

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Speaker 1: play with. Exon Mobile, pretty profitable all company right now

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Speaker 1: trades at fifteen in its PE ratio whereas Apple or Microsoft,

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Speaker 1: which are big tech giants, and with Microsoft having this

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Speaker 1: sort of AI push, they trade at thirty and thirty seven.

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Speaker 1: Tesla trades at forty five, and that's after its stock

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Speaker 1: price has fallen quite a bit this year. And so

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Speaker 1: you're saying that people want to believe the story of

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Speaker 1: a growth market for Tesla. Well, Microsoft has a growth

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Speaker 1: market in its AI business. So what is the growth

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Speaker 1: story here that it's going to be both a car

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Speaker 1: company that will outsell every other EV company and that

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Speaker 1: will be an EA company that will upsell every EA company.

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Speaker 3: H The answer to that is yes, it's all of

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Speaker 3: it right. Part of the issue with Tesla is that

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Speaker 3: the valuation has been so high for so long, you know,

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Speaker 3: and if you go back not so long ago, the

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Speaker 3: company was valued at one point two trillion dollars. There

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Speaker 3: is a whole cottage industry out there that revolves around

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Speaker 3: backfilling Tesla's valuation with kind of pieces of a jigsaw

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Speaker 3: puzzle to justify it. What's really interesting for me has

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Speaker 3: been to watch how the EV bit of that, the

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Speaker 3: business of actually making and selling or leasing evs, how

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Speaker 3: that has shrunk in importance over time. I'll give you

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Speaker 3: an example. You know, I was recently reading a celsid

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Speaker 3: analyst report. Their base case valuation is a trillion dollars,

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Speaker 3: you know, roughly double where the market cap is today.

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Speaker 3: Of that selling EV's less than six percent of the

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Speaker 3: mooted valuation robotaxis, which is a term that can mean

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Speaker 3: a bunch of different things. I'm going off the top

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Speaker 3: of my head here, but it was something like six

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Speaker 3: hundred and something billion dollars. It was. It was more

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Speaker 3: than half the valuation, more than the entire current market

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Speaker 3: cap of the company. And what I put this down

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Speaker 3: to is, when you're buying Tesla, Yes, you're buying an

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Speaker 3: EV business that has grown, you know, incredibly well from nothing,

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Speaker 3: which is no small feat. But what you're also buying

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Speaker 3: is kind of an option on whatever is in Elon

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Speaker 3: Musk's head that day. You know, is he going to

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Speaker 3: reinvent the car as a self driving robotaxi? Is he

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Speaker 3: going to invent a humanoid robot?

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Speaker 2: Is he going.

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Speaker 3: To transform global grids with giant utility scale batteries? Those

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Speaker 3: pieces shift around in importance, but they always seem to

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Speaker 3: support a kind of a notional value of several hundred

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Speaker 3: billion dollars.

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Speaker 1: And this is the problem with Tesla. If you start

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Speaker 1: talking about the company, we have to talk about Elon,

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Speaker 1: and we have to talk about these wild ideas that

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Speaker 1: keep cropping up, either from Tesla or most of the

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Speaker 1: time from Elon. But let's try and focus on the

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Speaker 1: EV business because today Tesla is mostly an EV business.

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Speaker 2: It's ninety percent of the gross profit.

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Speaker 1: And as an EV company or as an auto company,

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Speaker 1: there are many unusual things even then. So most auto companies,

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Speaker 1: whether they're mature or starting out, have a pipeline of

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Speaker 1: models that they'll be working on because customers have different demands,

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Speaker 1: different markets have different demands. Tesla right now does not

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Speaker 1: have anything in the pipeline, So why should we even

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Speaker 1: take it seriously as an auto company?

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Speaker 2: To start?

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Speaker 3: Well, to clarify it, the company says it does have

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Speaker 3: some products coming. I think where there is an issue

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Speaker 3: is that it's very vague as to what those are,

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Speaker 3: and it put them out with its first quarter announcement,

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Speaker 3: but then basically said.

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Speaker 2: It wouldn't offer many details on what they were.

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Speaker 3: But just parking that to one side, I think the

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Speaker 3: reason it's taken seriously as a car maker is it

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Speaker 3: pulled off something amazing, right, brand new car company in

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Speaker 3: an industry that famously just you know, destroys hope, destroys profits,

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Speaker 3: destroys capital. And they didn't just start a car company.

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Speaker 3: They started a car company running on an entirely new

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Speaker 3: drive train, right, and had to build out a charging

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Speaker 3: network to go with it, and had to convince people

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Speaker 3: that it was actually fine and cool to drive an

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Speaker 3: EV And I think that has built up a lot

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Speaker 3: of good will.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: I will say I was skeptical of Tesla in the

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Speaker 3: early days. They burned capital for a long time, and

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Speaker 3: you know, they turned it into a profitable business, not

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Speaker 3: a business I think that is worth what the market

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Speaker 3: says it's worth. But they did it, and I think

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Speaker 3: that's a huge achievement, and the market takes them seriously

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Speaker 3: for that. However, as you point out, they don't have

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Speaker 3: a great pipeline. It's been years since they launched a

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Speaker 3: truly new product, leaving aside the cyber truck, which was

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Speaker 3: launched late last year, in which I think, even if

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Speaker 3: we leave aside all the issues that have been reported

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Speaker 3: with it, it's going to be a niche, expensive product.

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Speaker 3: But in terms of a mass market or mass market

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Speaker 3: ish product. Yeah, we haven't seen anything for years, and

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Speaker 3: this industry thrives on new products.

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Speaker 1: After the break the difference between the American ebie market

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Speaker 1: and the demand for e everywhere else. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: if you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to

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Speaker 1: rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

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Speaker 1: It helps other listeners find it for the EV transition.

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Speaker 1: You want affordable evs. So the model too, if again

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Speaker 1: we are to believe reports before it was canceled, could

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Speaker 1: have been a twenty five thousand dollars EV.

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Speaker 2: In that price.

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Speaker 1: Point, there really isn't anything available. And if you did

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Speaker 1: get a twenty five thousand dollars EV, credible analysis shows

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Speaker 1: that would change the EV game, that would really accelerate

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Speaker 1: in the US. In the US, So, now that there

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Speaker 1: is no model too, does it matter or will somebody

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Speaker 1: else pick up the slack?

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Speaker 3: I think if Tesla has abandoned the model too, and

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Speaker 3: it certainly seems like it's been pushed back indefinitely, that

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Speaker 3: is a big deal because, you know, think about what

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Speaker 3: the story was before.

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Speaker 2: All these events happened.

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Speaker 3: The story was Tesla is bringing this car to market

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Speaker 3: and it's going to underpin the next phase of growth

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Speaker 3: in EV demand. You know, you go back and look

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Speaker 3: at the sales figures for evs in the US over

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Speaker 3: the past decade or so, every step up in demand

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Speaker 3: has always coincided with the launch of a new Tesla EV, the.

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Speaker 2: S, the three, the Y.

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Speaker 3: So it matters hugely that Tesla was going to do this,

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Speaker 3: not just that it was going to expand the total

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Speaker 3: addressable market in the US, but it was also, as

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Speaker 3: it has done over time, it was going to force

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Speaker 3: other auto makers to up their game and try to

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Speaker 3: do this. Without that, there you're left with a market

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Speaker 3: in the US that is still very weighted to the

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Speaker 3: premium end of things. You've got slightly less pressure on

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Speaker 3: the legacy auto makers to up their game, and there

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Speaker 3: is a danger. You know, I live in the US

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Speaker 3: and you're surrounded by trucks and heavy SUVs, which is

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Speaker 3: just awful to electrify. And unless you get a compelling

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Speaker 3: product or set of products that make people rethink their choices,

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Speaker 3: then you're gonna have a much slower transition.

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Speaker 2: In the US.

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Speaker 1: And I think the numbers also bear your case, which

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Speaker 1: is in the US Tesla is still half the market

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Speaker 1: for evs. You know, Tesla also is half the market

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Speaker 1: for all the superchargers, and so what happens to Tesla

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Speaker 1: really does matter to.

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Speaker 2: The EV story in the US.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, at one point, the US was

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Speaker 1: the biggest auto market in the world, and what the

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Speaker 1: US did really matter to the rest of the world.

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Speaker 1: But now let's just look at the rest of the world.

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Speaker 2: So the US is.

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Speaker 1: About a fifth of the global market, but in EV terms,

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Speaker 1: US is twelve percent of the global market. Eighty eight

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Speaker 1: percent of evs are sold outside of the US, and

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Speaker 1: most of those evs are Chinese EV's. You know, if

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Speaker 1: we wanted to go back to the birth of EV

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Speaker 1: as a mass market vehicle, of course, that Tesla story

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Speaker 1: is key because it made the EV cool. But the

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Speaker 1: Chinese were also starting to do their own thing where

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Speaker 1: they wanted to create an entire industry, and they started

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Speaker 1: even before Tesla really made any vehicle. And so would

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Speaker 1: it matter to the rest of the world if Tesla

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Speaker 1: doesn't succeed, I think much less than in the US,

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Speaker 1: you know, And.

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Speaker 3: I think, going back to the very start of our conversation,

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Speaker 3: the fact that Tesla's core EV business is struggling in

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Speaker 3: terms of growth and margins, is in some respects a

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Speaker 3: testament to the fact that competition has grown, right, because

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Speaker 3: if they didn't have to compete, then they wouldn't have

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Speaker 3: to cut prices, they wouldn't be worrying about shifting inventory

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Speaker 3: and that sort of thing. And I think, you know,

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Speaker 3: the market share figures tell you that story. Yes, in

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Speaker 3: the US still roughly half the market or thereabouts, but China,

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Speaker 3: Europe it's much lower. And so, you know, I tend

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Speaker 3: to think about these things in terms of their escape velocity,

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Speaker 3: and clearly in China EV's have reached it an escape velocity.

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Speaker 3: Europe probably though to less of a degree. The US,

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Speaker 3: I think the jury is still you know, very much

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Speaker 3: out it's still a growing market, and it's still you know,

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Speaker 3: sales that are much bigger than they were. But I

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Speaker 3: think the sense of angst about EV's in general in

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Speaker 3: the US is palpable.

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Speaker 1: And you recently went to Norway. Now Norwi is e

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Speaker 1: eighty five percent ev sales already on an annual piesis

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Speaker 1: What was it like? Well, it hit me.

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Speaker 3: I hadn't been to Norway for about twenty years, and

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Speaker 3: the first thing you noticed I landed at Bergen Airport

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Speaker 3: and you come out and of course the taxi rank

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Speaker 3: is entirely electric. I think the thing that really struck

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Speaker 3: me though, was the breadth of models. So, you know,

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Speaker 3: put it this way, I drive an electric vehicle. Back

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Speaker 3: in the States, I can tell it a Tesla. It

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Speaker 3: is not a Tesla. But it's funny you say that,

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Speaker 3: because that is the first thing everyone says. You know,

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Speaker 3: you said, so I've got an EV. They say, oh,

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Speaker 3: is it a Tesla? And because in the States, Tesla

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Speaker 3: is just equated with the whole.

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Speaker 2: Idea of having an EV.

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Speaker 3: Whereas when I got to Bergen, there were you know,

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Speaker 3: there were there were Tesla's, absolutely, but there were Fords,

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Speaker 3: there were Skodas. You felt much more a sense of

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Speaker 3: a diverse ecosystem of evs there than I do back

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Speaker 3: around New York, where most of the EV's I see

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Speaker 3: are still tesla's. If you were to take a ball case,

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Speaker 3: which is to say, let's figure out that Tesla has

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Speaker 3: started itself out, has found a way to make things happen,

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Speaker 3: brought in a cheap vehicle, maybe even brought in a

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Speaker 3: robotaxi and Elin is acting like a chief executive officer

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Speaker 3: of a major company, you're.

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Speaker 2: Assuming a lot there.

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Speaker 1: What would that do to the EV transition that is

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Speaker 1: not happening today.

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Speaker 3: I think, well, you know, there's some practical things, So

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Speaker 3: if you if you did get a cheaper Tesla EV,

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Speaker 3: I think that would unlock another segment of the market,

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Speaker 3: definitely in the US, probably in Europe as well, particularly

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Speaker 3: if it still had all the or a lot of

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Speaker 3: the bells and whistles that people associate with Tesla's on

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Speaker 3: the on the kind of the software and user interface side,

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Speaker 3: and the performance. I think in the US in particular,

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Speaker 3: it would maybe alay some of the fears that have

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Speaker 3: spread to other aspects of the Tesla story, particularly you

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Speaker 3: know the recent firing of the supercharger division, where it's

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Speaker 3: just very disconcerting. I think for everyone who is invested

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Speaker 3: in evs in the US to see a vital bit

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Speaker 3: of infrastructure like that, you know, not necessarily cast aside,

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Speaker 3: because he Musk himself was very quick to say, oh,

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Speaker 3: we're still investing in them, But to think of that

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Speaker 3: being in doubt at this stage of the transition is

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Speaker 3: I think very worrying.

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Speaker 2: I think it.

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Speaker 3: Would also provide a shot in the arm for industry sentiment,

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Speaker 3: again mainly in the US, but I think also in

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Speaker 3: Europe as well, where you know, as I'm sure you're

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Speaker 3: aware the sense of gloom around evs, which I think

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Speaker 3: began to kick in mostly around the fall last year

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Speaker 3: and has intensified earlier this year, it would give people

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Speaker 3: a sense that there is a next leg of growth coming.

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Speaker 3: There is still innovation here, very importantly. You know, you

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Speaker 3: get a twenty five thousand dollar EV you're pretty much

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Speaker 3: at that level where you know BNF has those charts

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Speaker 3: where the lines about cost of ownership of ice and

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Speaker 3: EV vehicles cross, and you'd be forcing the industry to

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Speaker 3: up its game to get there as well, I think

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Speaker 3: in the US as well, and this is very particular

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Speaker 3: to the US, there is a political angle to this.

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Speaker 3: I think if Tesla is seen to be failing in evs,

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Speaker 3: because the brand is so synonymous with electric vehicles in

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Speaker 3: the US, and also because of the way the energy

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Speaker 3: transition has become part of the US kind of culture wars,

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Speaker 3: there is a sort of grotesque delight taken by certain

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Speaker 3: elements of the political class if anything connected with the

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Speaker 3: energy transition struggles or fails, and I think Tesla in

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Speaker 3: some ways would be kind of a white whale of that.

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Speaker 3: It would be like a million times bigger than Cylindra.

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Speaker 3: And remember we aren't talking about necessarily, you know, Tesla

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Speaker 3: going bankrupt or Tesla, you know, being liquidated, nothing like that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, going back to the start of our conversation,

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Speaker 3: my issue with Tesla is not that it's going to

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Speaker 3: fail as an enterprise.

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Speaker 2: It's just that it's over valued.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and to my mind, even if the stock fell

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Speaker 3: by half, we would still be talking about a company

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Speaker 3: valued at a quarter of a trillion dollars or more. However,

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Speaker 3: I think for Musk personally, I think for the kind

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Speaker 3: of the Transition project as a whole, that would be

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Speaker 3: seen as a big blow and it would certainly be

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Speaker 3: capitalized upon politically by opponents of the transition right. And

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Speaker 3: you said, a failure of Tesla would look a million

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Speaker 3: times like Cylinder. For those who don't know about the

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Speaker 3: Cylinder story, it was a solar company that got a

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Speaker 3: loan from the US government during the financial crisis or

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Speaker 3: just after, and it went bankrupt, was not able to

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Speaker 3: repay the loan, and that was taken by the right

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Speaker 3: wing politicians but also press as a failure of.

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Speaker 1: The energy transition. So now let's flip the story. A

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Speaker 1: catastrophic failure of Tesla is not going to be no

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Speaker 1: cars are sold. Somebody built by something and make something

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Speaker 1: out of it. But what would not change if that

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Speaker 1: were to happen. What in the ev transition wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: affected if Tesla were to go south?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think on the most basic level, the

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Speaker 3: investments made to date would still be there, right, including

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Speaker 3: all the investments made by Tesla itself, battery plants that

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Speaker 3: have been built or are being built in the US

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Speaker 3: federal climate legislation, with a bevy of subsidies to build

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Speaker 3: up the supply chain, a lot of which is focused

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Speaker 3: on batteries and evs. The idea of evs being a mainstream,

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Speaker 3: ordinary vehicle, which I think exists psychologically at different levels

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Speaker 3: around the world, but certainly in the US, or at

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Speaker 3: least the part of the US where I live, and

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Speaker 3: other states as well. You know, evs aren't seen as

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Speaker 3: crazy anymore. They're not even seen as unusual. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I see Marquis Mustang.

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Speaker 2: Cop cars patrolling New York.

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Speaker 3: I mean, which I think even ten years ago might

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Speaker 3: have seemed a bit outlandish, but now seems quite ordinary,

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Speaker 3: and I think that is important. But most of all,

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Speaker 3: I think the fact that you're seeing a mixture of

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Speaker 3: commercial and government support for evs around the world and

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Speaker 3: in markets that collectively are bigger than the US, that's

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Speaker 3: not going to go away. I think a setback for

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Speaker 3: Tesla would certainly catch the attention of policymakers and competitors,

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Speaker 3: and there would, I think, be some negative fallout, But

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Speaker 3: I think there's enough critical mass that it just doesn't

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Speaker 3: feel to me like everyone would suddenly say, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: this isn't.

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Speaker 2: Going to work now. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I think also we have to think about the

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Speaker 3: autos industry in general, which is, let's be honest, mostly

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Speaker 3: a history of failure.

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Speaker 2: Right, you know, you go back one.

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Speaker 3: Hundred years, is like, I know what the figure is,

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Speaker 3: like two thousand US car manufacturers and you end up

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Speaker 3: with three dominant ones over time.

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Speaker 1: And it's the same thing with EV's in China. You know,

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Speaker 1: four hundred and fifty EV makers at one point and

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Speaker 1: now you have a few dozen, right.

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Speaker 3: So there are no guarantees in industry and companies that

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Speaker 3: pioneer things sometimes do fail or they end up in

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Speaker 3: a much smaller role than we all imagine them to

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Speaker 3: have during their heyday. But I don't think it necessarily

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Speaker 3: means the whole industry just.

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Speaker 1: Goes away in the energy transition. I do think of

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Speaker 1: my dad as a very interesting character because he lives

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Speaker 1: in India. No, he has some money, not that he

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Speaker 1: can go out and splurge on a Tesla.

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Speaker 2: For example.

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Speaker 1: He's been thinking about EV's for a few years now,

403
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Speaker 1: but every year we sit down and we go through

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Speaker 1: models that he has access to in India, and he's like, nah,

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Speaker 1: it's still a little too expensive for me. So when

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Speaker 1: he flips and when he ends up buying an EV

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Speaker 1: to me is when it really becomes a mass market product.

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Speaker 1: And so maybe that coincides with the twenty five thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars Tesla coming in the US and he gets a

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Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars electric car that is cool in India.

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Speaker 1: But that hasn't happened.

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Speaker 3: Yet, No, And I think, you know, in a lot

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Speaker 3: of the US, you have to remember that part of

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Speaker 3: the reason the gasoline demand in the US is so

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Speaker 3: high is because obviously Americans drive further than in most

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Speaker 3: other places, and they tend to drive heavier, less fuel

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Speaker 3: fish and vehicles and part of changing that, particularly in

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Speaker 3: a place like the US, where government policy will only

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Speaker 3: take you so far, you have to get Americans to

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Speaker 3: literally buy into something, right if you're going to change it.

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Speaker 3: So you really have to tempt people with affordable and

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Speaker 3: useful products. And I think what Tesla achieved was that

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Speaker 3: it at least got the EV to the point in

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Speaker 3: the US where people thought it was useful and desirable, right.

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Speaker 3: But I think to get to the next phase of

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Speaker 3: growth and to take EV's truly mainstream, and importantly, I

427
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Speaker 3: think to get them to the point where the legacy

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Speaker 3: vehicle makers really feel less afraid to let go of

429
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Speaker 3: their older businesses, you've got to.

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Speaker 2: Have more of a mass market product.

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Speaker 3: It's going to be hard to make that a truck

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Speaker 3: or a heavy suv that is cost competitive. So you've

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Speaker 3: got to at least get something out there that is

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Speaker 3: cool and attractive and isn't going to cost two times

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Speaker 3: you know, average income or whatever. In order to have

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Speaker 3: a piece of it, it's got to feel like something

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Speaker 3: that's as normal as walking into the lot and buying

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Speaker 3: you know, a Honda Civic or a.

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Speaker 2: Honda Record or or a Toyota Rav four. Something like that.

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Speaker 1: Well, Let's hope Tesla figues out a way to do that.

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Speaker 1: And if Tesla doesn't, let's hope another automaker does well.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Liam, Thank you, thank you for listening to Zero.

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Speaker 1: If you like this episode, please take a moment to

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Speaker 1: read or review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

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00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 1: Share this episode with a friend or with someone who

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Speaker 1: has had an awkward encounter with a robotaxi. You can

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Speaker 1: get in touch at Zero pod at Bloomberg dot Net.

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00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 1: Zero's producer is Mighty le Rau. Bloomberg's head of podcast

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00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: is Sage Bauman, and head of Talk is Brandon Nunan.

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Speaker 1: Our theme music is composed by Wonderley Special thanks to

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Speaker 1: Kirra Bindram, Alsia Clanton, Craig Ruddell, and annamazarakus I am Akshatrati,

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Speaker 1: Max