WEBVTT - Is Reality a Computer Simulation? 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:04.720 From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:09.119 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:12.160 learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:13.920 production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:25.560 Hello, welcome back to the show. 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:27.479 My name is Matt, my name is Noel. 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:29.120 They call me Ben. 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:32.519 We're joined as always with our super producer Paul Mission 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:36.560 Control decads. Most importantly, you are you, You are here, 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:39.920 and that makes this the stuff they don't. 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:40.839 Want you to know. 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:45.159 This evening, we're asking a big, big question, one that 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:51.239 we have surprisingly not tackled before. Guys, what exactly is 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:53.880 this thing that we're all in? 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:58.080 What is life? Well? 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:01.720 I mean I'm a normal guy. Yeah, I wake up 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:04.399 every sunset at the at the crack of evening and 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:06.360 put on my skin one leg at a time like 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.960 anyone else. But like, what is reality? 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:15.560 Bro? I think we're just spiritual beings having a physical experience, right, 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:18.120 So I think and I made that up. 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:22.279 Yeah, Yeah, we're just animated carbon shambling through the filth. 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:22.479 Bro. 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:25.920 Yeah, we're just if you think about it, you know, 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:32.000 the closest analog to the consciousness is kind of a song, right, 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.880 It's a pattern. So we're sort of the stories and 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:37.560 the songs we sing to ourselves. If you think about it, 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.800 your brain is kind of like a little figure in 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.760 a big meat mech and it's controlling all sorts of 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:45.440 weird stuff. 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:47.280 Yeah, meat mech and. 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.160 I you know it's it's weird because people have been 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:56.000 arguing about the nature of reality or phenomenology for since 0:01:56.160 --> 0:02:02.560 time immemorial. And there's this question. Is the set of hardwired, constant, 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:06.560 unchanging physical laws. Is it more subjective? Is it just 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:11.800 this sort of narrative that thinking minds agree upon. Is 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:14.079 is it all just a bunch of you know, kind 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:17.880 of shadows on a cave wall, like Plato said? Or 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:21.799 is it some sort of computer program? And if so, 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:26.080 can this program be hacked? We promise you we are 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:28.280 not high. Here are the facts. 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:30.720 You said that a lot in the last episode too. 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:33.320 I feel like when we talk about these things, we 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:36.239 have to establish that baseline. 0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:39.079 Hey, to each their own. I am a little high. 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:43.160 I'm gonna perfect facts here. 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:46.600 We have explored the nature of reality because you know what, guys, 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:50.359 it's fun. It's like one of the things, like metacognition 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.000 is one of the things that makes us human. So 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:57.200 thinking about thinking, thinking about what this all of this is, 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:00.880 what we're being presented with it, if it as meaning? 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:03.720 If not, like all of the things that you said. So, 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:05.320 this is something that's definitely come up in a lot 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.040 of strange news and Listener Male episodes in the past, 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:13.200 this idea of some sort of simulation here. But like consciousness, 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:18.480 until relatively recently, reality has always kind of been presented 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:23.280 as some sort of dilemma that needs to be reckoned with, right, 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:26.560 like the nature of reality, like what is this? Is 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:30.359 this a shared experience? Is there a god? Whatever? 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:36.760 Well, it's because all of us can deuce take certain 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:42.640 actions to affirm for ourselves that this is in fact reality, 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.240 and the things that we are experiencing are very similar, 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:50.000 if not the same, to things that some other seemingly 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:55.240 conscious being is experiencing. Right, And as humans, as we've 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:59.680 continued to evolve, we've gotten better at, you know, measuring 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:04.800 things and writing down the things that we find as 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:08.360 we get deeper and deeper into you know, the sub 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:11.800 atomic and go bigger and bigger out into the cosmos. 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:13.840 But there's a problem, right. 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:19.279 Oh, yes, there are quite a few problems humans experience 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:23.000 reality all the time. There's not really a pause from it. 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:27.080 But despite thousands and thousands and thousands of years of 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:33.560 contemplating this, humans still struggle to define reality, let alone 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:37.120 understand it. And there was this great this great article 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:40.200 for new scientists. I think it came out in twenty 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:45.039 twenty one or so with these three authors, Jason Arun, Mrogessu, 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:49.560 Joshua al Guego, and Gilead Ahmet, and they put it 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:53.119 this way, they said, reality seems so solid, and yet 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:57.920 when we examine it closely, it melts away like a mirage. 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.360 We don't know when it began, how big it is, 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:04.160 where it came from, and where it is going, and 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:07.159 we certainly have no clue why it exists. 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:10.799 For another perspective, you could check out the seminal nineteen 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:15.200 ninety four grunge film Reality Bites, directed by Ben Stiller. 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:17.800 That's another way of looking at reality. 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:21.520 But ninety eight percent of bends are just so dope, dude. 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:23.719 Ben ben Stiller's a good He's one of the good bends. 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:25.560 I like where his career has taken him. I think 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:28.920 he's a talent both in front of and behind the camera. 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:30.920 That was that one he did he directed. I think 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.880 every episode severance also about the nature of reality, very 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:36.760 mind bend kind of show, if you're to that kind 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:42.560 of stuff. But you know, to your point, it is 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:45.640 an interesting thing, because what is reality if not like 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:48.640 some sort of shared understanding of the truth, you know. 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:51.560 But then it can also become more of a question 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:56.080 about presentational qualities of what we are seeing and experiencing. 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:58.760 So reality, it's got a lot of layers to it 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:00.000 just as a concept. 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:06.840 Right, sure, Yeah, the new scientist quotation continues here. They say, nonetheless, 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:11.040 the desire to understand reality seems part of our nature, 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:14.560 and we have come a long way. They're talking as 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:18.039 humans about humans. They say, what was once explained in 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:21.880 terms of divine creation is now in the purview of science. 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:24.599 Over the past two hundred years or so, we have 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:28.000 peeled back the layers of reality, even if we are 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:32.719 still not entirely sure what we have revealed. I mean, okay, look, 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:37.320 obviously this they can run the risk of becoming a 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:42.440 somewhat sophomoric conversation where people just sort of bandy platitudes 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:45.880 about but that's not what we're doing this evening, fellow 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:52.520 conspiracy realist people have made progress on navigating the Gordian 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:57.320 nod of existence. Even now you can find no shortage 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:01.800 of people claiming to have capital F figured it all out. 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:06.159 Some of the answers spirituality philosophy. You can't argue with 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:10.640 spirituality that is every person's individual choice. I love when 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:15.680 Descartes said, you know, man, I'm thinking about it, so 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.960 I guess I'm real because something is thinking. 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:21.000 I was tight. 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:24.000 Yeah, no, that was good, But I mean, I also 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:26.320 think it's interesting to think about the idea of like 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:30.600 eyewitness accounts and the way people perceive things, and this 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:31.760 idea of what. 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:32.440 Is the truth? 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:34.560 You know, like that to me is as one of 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:37.840 the layers I think those researchers were referring to. You know, 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:40.840 there there are many layers to the idea of reality, 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.360 not just about what we see, but about how people 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:46.600 interpret things. 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:50.119 And there are a lot of gatekeepers for that idea. 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:53.720 Because we're coming now, we're talking about consensual narrative, right, 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:57.640 the idea that, like a lot of spiritual belief systems 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:01.120 will argue that you, if you are cue, you exist 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:05.600 on the precipice of some greater profound understanding, you know, 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:11.640 some samsara right piece beyond words, and you can find 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:15.640 this if you follow the right spiritual leaders, the right regiments, 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:20.040 if you meditate, or in some cases cough cough, scientology, 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:25.800 if you donate money. Other attempts at answering the challenge 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:29.800 of reality. They rely on the bleeding edge of modern science. 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:33.000 And that's kind of what we're looking at this evening. 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:35.760 I think we'll get into this in a second, but 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:39.440 we've got to do a tease for our main guy, 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:42.480 our protagonist of the show. We're going to go into 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:46.360 this dude's reality pretty deep tonight. What's his name? 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:47.800 Who is he? 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:51.440 He's somebody you should know by this point. Twenty years 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:56.000 ago he put out something that has really been foundational 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:58.040 for a lot of the discussions that have been going 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:00.640 on on YouTube and TikTok and all these other things. Right, 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:03.760 mister Nick Bostrom, philosopher. 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:05.000 F I'm just amazed. 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.040 I'm just amazed because I didn't think about it, Matt, 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:10.480 until you pointed it out. Two thousand and three was 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:11.319 twenty years ago. 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:12.239 Yeah, yikes. 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:16.640 Yeah, this is what you will hear known as simulation 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:21.400 theory or holographic universe theory. There's all kinds of names 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:24.640 for it, most often simulation theory, and if. 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.840 I'm not mistaken, I believe Bostrom comes up or maybe 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:31.319 is even interviewed a little bit in Josh Clark's The 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:34.480 End of the World series, which is about existential threats. 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:39.600 Correct correct, yes, yeah, And Josh's show holds up. 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:40.520 Do check it out. 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:44.160 He is a dear old friend of ours. He also 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:46.680 does a little show with his pal Chuck that you 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:51.439 might know. It's called Stuff you should know, So check 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:51.840 it out. 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:54.480 Support that's just going places now that we've given up 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:54.880 the plug. 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:57.400 Yeah, I think this is going to be a big 0:09:57.480 --> 0:09:57.960 year for them. 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:01.320 Oh, hey, kids, their kids book just came out. I 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:05.040 got a message from writer and his mom. They were 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.160 in the bookstore there in Decatur, where I guess they. 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:08.600 Have a sign shop of stories. 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:10.679 There are a bunch of science copies. 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:15.320 Former that is a former bank too. That is the 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:20.840 coolest children's bookstore in the Atlanta metro area. Also shout 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:24.800 out to our pals Annie and sam Annie recent Samantha 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.880 McVeigh over at Stuff. Mom never told you they have 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:30.800 a book on the way. Do check that out. We 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:34.920 also have a book if. 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:36.280 We're on the book talk. 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:40.360 But yeah, Bostro, what's this what's this punchy character up to. 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:45.240 So his idea, and we're going to dig into this. 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:55.040 His idea, I argues one basic groundbreaking premise, and it's 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:57.079 it's really interesting. 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:03.120 It calls a lot back to earlier arguments of spirituality 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:06.360 and philosophy, or it may remind some of us of 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:11.920 the premises of gnosticism. He's saying, this whole thing, this 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:17.520 whole reality, could be made up. If reality really is 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:25.480 somehow a cartoonishly complex computer program, how would you know, folks, Well, 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:30.400 starting basis, if it's a computer in any way remotely 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:34.520 like the computer's Earth's favorite primates have been making for 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:38.560 a while, then it relies on programming. It relies on code. 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:43.679 And if reality has a source code, can you find it? 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:49.720 Perhaps more importantly, can you hack the simulation? This would 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:53.280 usually be the moment where we pause for a word 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:57.000 from our sponsors. However, we got a lot to get 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.800 to tonight, folks. We're not going to stand on ceremony. 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:04.839 Here's where it gets crazy. Could we hack the simulation? 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:07.760 Is the universe as you know it a simulation? 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:09.640 Maybe? 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:12.520 Actually, yes, just maybe it might be. 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:17.080 What Yeah, And it goes back to the problem that 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:21.080 we Once we get deep enough again into the micro, 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:25.520 into the nano, into deeper than that, things get fuzzy 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:29.800 and stuff doesn't seem to function the way our models 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:33.640 of physics say they should function. Isn't that the crazy thing? 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:38.400 Because that same problem exists on the macro scale, things 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:42.199 don't function the way we understand they should function within physics. 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:46.040 If you go in either of those directions, which means 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:49.760 that we have an understanding of what we can do 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:54.120 and really truly interact with with our human meat bodies, 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:57.160 you know, and to you know, there's a threshold above 0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.320 what we can actually touch, you know, when it comes 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:04.080 to like temperate sure heat or lack of heat, when 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:06.280 it comes over time. Hey, when it comes to time 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:08.120 and all that stuff. We can go beyond. We can 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:11.160 push those bounds with our technology. But when we use 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:14.640 that technology to look too hard at something, stuff just 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:15.440 gets wonky. 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:20.280 Yeah, down to the femto scale up to the giga 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:26.240 scale and beyond. It's weird because since no one knows 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:32.000 what's happening, since humanity collectively for the entirety of existence 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.800 up to August twenty first, twenty twenty three, as we 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:40.199 record this, since no one knows what the is going on. 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.800 We're in a pretty cool spot as a civilization. Even 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:48.760 the strangest sounding ideas like simulation theory are worth investigating. 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:55.200 We are currently in the brainstorming period of figuring out 0:13:55.240 --> 0:14:00.760 reality as a collective thing. So Nick Bostrom has a 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:06.640 few basic premises or axioms that we have to understand 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:11.120 to really understand his argument about simulation theory, and they're 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:15.800 pretty simple, except well, we'll give you three and then 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.600 there's a big like Shyamalan plot twist. 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.200 At the end. Yeah, that's okay. 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:24.080 I mean, let's just lay it out before we try 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:25.160 to dismantle it. 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:26.640 First. 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:30.880 He argues that humanity, you know, will inevitably reach a 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:36.720 technological point, a high water mark where a simulated version 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:39.560 of the universe could be something in the cards to 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.680 be created. Maybybe it's even like a copy of the 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:47.480 one that we're already inhabiting, whether this be virtual or whatever, 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.000 like a like a miniature. I don't know, we've seen this, 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:52.120 and this is a science fiction any type stuff for sure, 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:54.440 which you're definitely gonna get to. So this could be 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:58.080 what we may be referred to as the singularity when 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:04.320 humans and send humanism by you know, basically flexing all 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:09.120 of these technological and scientific muscles you know that they've 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:13.680 been honing for all these years. Bostrom says that if 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:18.520 they humanity can create a universe simulation, they absolutely will. 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:19.360 Yeah. 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:23.480 Interesting, right, it is interesting, And I agree people. 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:26.880 I mean, you know, we know people do stuff. They 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:30.440 often leap before they look. Uh so it's not like 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:33.400 we have a great history of like thinking about things before. 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:35.560 Just let's just try it. Throw things at the wall, 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:39.080 see what sticks. Of course they're gonna do the thing. Yeah. 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:41.520 The next question is why would they do that thing? 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:42.320 Right? 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:44.640 What would they use that thing for? Once let's say 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:47.520 you've created well, because you can, but what do you 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:50.520 use it for? What's the purpose of this other universe 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:53.040 that you've created if you could create it? 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:55.440 Think about the virtuals, like the sims. 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.240 That's what That's exactly what I'm going to think about. 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:01.480 So we're talking too than and three when Nick Bostrom is, 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:04.720 you know, presenting all this stuff. A couple of years 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:06.720 before that, nineteen ninety nine, a little movie called The 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:10.080 Matrix came out. That was that captured the popular mind, 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.760 right it did. It was a huge movie. A little 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:17.000 thing that you just mentioned called the SIMS came out 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.360 a virtual world a couple like literally a year after 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:24.920 you put out these thoughts. World of Warcraft was first unveiled. 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:31.360 We were getting into virtual worlds as humanity, like real, tangible, 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:34.480 feeling virtual worlds, not some of the older stuff that 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:37.440 we think about when it comes back to video games. 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:39.640 Yeah, yeah, drug wars. 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:44.560 Even like the early MMOs like EverQuest or something you 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.560 could put into here, or you know, second life things 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:52.400 like that. We're we're just thinking about it a lot more, right, So, I. 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:55.680 Mean, I'm glad that you took it there right away. 0:16:56.040 --> 0:17:00.240 The idea of the gamification, you know, the immediate thing 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:01.880 that we would want to do with this is to 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:05.480 make the world's most advanced mm RPG. 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:09.040 Or something like that. Right, That's one possibility, right, But 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:12.480 the other possibility would be what maybe. 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:17.720 For study, some studying, yeap, just to see how things work, right, 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:18.880 like to try things. 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:23.399 Let's see model catastrophic weather situations, model all kinds of 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.200 scenarios to see how they might affect you know, the 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:27.600 quote unquote real. 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:30.880 Universe or political systems that too. 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:38.000 Let us build a small a small scale, constrained instance 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:42.000 of a world right and and you know it's no 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:46.879 secret longtime listeners. Before doing this podcasting thing, I was 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:51.159 tangentially involved in some in some of this stuff I 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:54.719 learned at the feet of some people who really are 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:58.760 doing that thing. There are, as we record now, it's 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:03.320 open secret at least that there are very smart people 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:09.600 who have constructed simulations with constraints of entire countries and 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:13.040 they are mapping out stuff. And when you have enough 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:17.520 data and you have enough know how, then what your 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:22.320 model can do becomes very close to what happens in 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:25.959 the real world, which maybe for some people proves that 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:30.240 the real world is another model, not the reality show. Clearly, 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:35.919 that's an awesome model for human interaction. Thank YOUMTV. So, 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:40.720 like that's the idea, the educational aspect. Why would you 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.840 do this if you could, Well, you would want to 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:48.080 learn more about yourself. Humans are humans favorite thing, so 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:50.879 you would also be able to use this as a 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:57.280 diagnostic predictive tool. Scientists, if this were possible, would probably 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:02.000 create as many simulations as they could as a way 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:06.600 of learning more about their own universe. Like what what 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:10.679 if the amino acids that make up DNA are just 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.840 a little bit different. How does that change things? What 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:17.600 if life is silicon based rather than carbon based? 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:18.280 You know what I mean? 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:23.119 These are very interesting questions. The third assumption the Bosstroum 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:26.760 needs us to follow on with is he says, we 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:32.360 must assume that the virtual inhabitants of any simulated universe 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:40.280 possess characteristics similar to our own universe, including consciousness. Key 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:43.920 thing being they're not aware they're in a simulation. So 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:47.920 the quick recap humanity reaches a point where they would 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:52.800 create a simulated universe, and they definitely would that's another assumption. 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:56.679 Then second, they would use this to learn more about themselves, 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:03.240 and third, the that they created would not be aware 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.399 that they were in a program. And this leads us 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:09.359 all to the you know, the big plot twist. I 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:12.760 don't know what's to do this one. I uh, it's 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:13.240 a lot. 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.919 Oh well, yeah, no, we can talk about this. Basically, 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:21.080 what Bostrom is stating is that if it is possible 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:26.040 to create a universe like this within whatever universe that 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:29.040 they live in that are creating this universe, let's say 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:32.600 us far in the future, it's almost impossible that it 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.840 hasn't already been done, and we currently aren't living in 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:40.480 that universe, the simulated one. That that's where it gets 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:42.600 a little, It gets kind of crazy because it sounds 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:44.400 like a huge leap, right. 0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:46.479 I mean, I guess it makes me think of the 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:51.040 inevitable part of the science fiction movie where the cyborg 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:54.240 realizes it's a cyborg, you know what I mean. 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:57.600 Like, what what does it mean to know this? And 0:20:57.760 --> 0:20:59.359 like we all exist. 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:02.399 In our heads, we know that we are aware, and 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:08.000 we feel unique and the product of memories and things 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:09.720 like that that make us individuals. 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:12.720 So like if we were faced with this, Nope, that's 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:13.360 all not real. 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:17.040 That's all but been created by somebody else, and none 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:17.480 of it is. 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:18.160 Unique to you. 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:20.800 That to me is that moment, you know, where like 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:23.800 the robot who's been living under the assumption that it's. 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:27.479 A real human has its world rocked. You know, uh, 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:31.480 you're the clone, damn it. That kind of stuff. But 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:39.240 also also, okay, think about this, like it sounds at 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:43.640 first blush. It sounds as though we're saying, Hey, the 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:48.040 following ingredients for a case idea exist. We all know 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:48.800 those exist. 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:52.960 Therefore, you are inevitably eating a case adea right now. 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:56.520 Those two things are don't square, and it does feel 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:59.360 like a leap to your point, Matt, because everything that 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:06.400 perceives reality appears to tell any living creature. It appears 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:10.760 to indicate that just because an event can occur does 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:16.159 not necessarily mean it will, has, or does occur, unless, 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:19.679 of course, we bring in multiversal theory, wherein everything is 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:23.359 happening all at once, all possible events do occur. But 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:26.280 let's hold off on that one. Let's go back to 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:30.560 bosterm He does not accept this idea. He does not 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:34.480 accept this objection to the argument. He argues instead that 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:42.120 we cannot assume some other version of intelligent beings human, posthuman, transhuman, 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:46.160 or otherwise. We can't assume they haven't already hit that 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:51.160 technological landmark and therefore created a simulation in which we're 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:54.080 now living. And then it gets even trickier, because if 0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:58.520 you're living in a simulation, everything that you can gather 0:22:58.840 --> 0:23:03.000 and observe and test and measure also exist within the 0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:06.760 bounds of that manufactured reality. So we'd have no real 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:10.159 way to break the fourth wall, as it were, you know, 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:14.600 anymore than like you guys know, we're gamers. We love, 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:20.080 we especially love deeply immersive RPGs. You know, anymore, it'd 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:23.560 be like a non player character NPC in Skyrim or 0:23:23.600 --> 0:23:28.040 Fallout all of a sudden saying, holy smokes, I'm a caji, 0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:30.720 I'm a cat person. Or what's what's like an NPC 0:23:30.920 --> 0:23:32.399 from Fallout? What do they have? 0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:38.160 A ghoule perhaps, okay, a junk trader or whatever. 0:23:38.640 --> 0:23:41.840 Yeah, like right, well, I mean, I think another good 0:23:41.920 --> 0:23:43.959 piece of pop culture to refer to with this kind 0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:47.680 of thinking, as Westworld to the series, at least the 0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:49.600 first couple of seasons where they're really in the game. 0:23:49.640 --> 0:23:51.000 I kind of lost track of it after that. 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:55.360 But like all of those characters that are NPCs or whatever, 0:23:55.600 --> 0:23:58.240 some of them have lower level programming, some of them 0:23:58.280 --> 0:24:00.199 are like they do one thing and that's all they do. 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:02.640 Then they're the higher level ones that like can make 0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:06.000 more complex decisions. And they refer to it in game 0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:08.600 theory and in game designing as a loop, and that's 0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:10.760 what they refer to it in the show, as all 0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:13.719 these characters, these storylines are on these loops and then 0:24:13.760 --> 0:24:16.600