1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:01,240 Speaker 1: Taking a Walk. 2 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 2: Welcome to Taking a Walk on Buzzs Night, and today 3 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:08,040 Speaker 2: we're diving deep into one of rock's most compelling stories 4 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:13,319 Speaker 2: with the incredible Melissa auf der Maher. For those who 5 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 2: know rock history, Melissa's journey is a legendary one from 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 2: the Montreal music scene, becoming the bass player for Hoole 7 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 2: during their most turbulent and triumphant era, then joining Smashing 8 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 2: Pumpkins during their final tours. But Melissa is much more 9 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 2: than her time with these iconic bands. He's a visual artist, filmmaker, 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 2: solo artists, with two critically acclaimed albums, and now powerful memoir. 11 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 2: Her new book, Even the Good Girls Will Cry. It's 12 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 2: a raw, unflinching look at what it really means to 13 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 2: be a woman in rock and roll. It's about survival, creativity, ambition, 14 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 2: and finding your voice in an industry that often tries 15 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: to silence it. This isn't just another rock memoir. It's 16 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 2: a cultural document about art, identity and resilience. Today, we're 17 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: going to walk through Melissa's remarkable career, explore the stories 18 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 2: behind the music, and dig into why she felt now 19 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 2: was the time tell her story and her own words. 20 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 1: Taking a Walk. 21 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 2: Melissa, thank you for being on the Take on a 22 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 2: Walk podcast. 23 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 3: It is an honor to have you. 24 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 4: I this is my first official podcast in the promotion 25 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 4: phase of my nineties rock memoir, so it is an 26 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 4: honor to start with you. Westwood is my mother's birthplace, 27 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 4: and then Walpole is where. 28 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 5: My uncle and my cousins and those who did not 29 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 5: flee the US like my mother did in the sixties 30 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 5: to reject all of the political injustices of America, and 31 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 5: she found her way to Montreal in the sixties, but 32 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 5: her family stayed and my uncle and all my cousins 33 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 5: all were came to be in Wopol, Massachusetts. So that's 34 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,399 Speaker 5: my other New England connection. And then my grandparents were 35 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 5: Cape Cod so all of my childhood Christmases and Easters 36 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 5: and summers were on the Cape, and so that is 37 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 5: my deep New England connection. And there was a time 38 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 5: being raised in Montreal that my only gateway to America 39 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 5: was Cape Cod. So my vision of America was very 40 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 5: skewed to quaint, sweet Cape Cod. And then the whole 41 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 5: world broke open. Even though I was indoctrinated by my 42 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 5: two socialist, politically active counterculture parents to not trust the 43 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 5: United States. But for me, Cape Cod and my cape 44 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 5: Cod grandparents were like the coolest, sweetest place in the world. 45 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 5: So I didn't quite understand what the problem was with America. 46 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 3: I'm still trying to figure out it out. 47 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 5: All. No, now we all know the problems. 48 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 3: Well do you like chowda? First of all? Too? Do 49 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 3: you like and I love? 50 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 5: I love Boston accents? My grandfather and my uncle real 51 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 5: pac the cop people. My mother decoded herself and became 52 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 5: a very eloquent international linguist type, so she spoke in 53 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 5: the old New England sort of international Katherine Hepburn style, 54 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 5: which was like my grandmother. But my grandfather and my 55 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 5: uncle were the strong Boston accents. 56 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 2: Yes, well I didn't grow up here. I grew up 57 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:47,119 Speaker 2: in Stanford, Connecticut. But sometimes people listen to me speaking 58 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 2: because they know I've been here for a number of years, 59 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 2: and they end up saying, well, I could detect the accent, 60 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: and I'm like, darn, I'm not from here. 61 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 5: Well this was That is equivalent of me mourning the 62 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 5: fact that it took about five years being in the 63 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 5: rock band hole living in the US to erase most 64 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 5: of my Canadian news. Although people still hear it in 65 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 5: my I guess house, and there's certain words I say 66 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 5: that still have like the oh oddness. But when I 67 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 5: join whole, I said Nirvana pasta, avocado Mazda, and then 68 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 5: all of a sudden it turned into like, oh, it's 69 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 5: Nirvana avocado pasta. That was so that was like the 70 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 5: big unfiltering of my Canadian innocence. And then I became 71 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 5: semi dual citizen and accepted in all places. 72 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 3: Yes, can I hear you pronounce your name? 73 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 2: Because first of all, I think it would sound more 74 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 2: authentic than the way I probably say it. But secondly 75 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 2: it will it will even guide me further. But I 76 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 2: just dying to hear you pronounce your name. 77 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, it's been hard my whole life because I 78 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 5: grew up a politician's daughter, and I heard all of 79 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 5: the city of Montreal mangle my father's name. So my 80 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 5: father said it differently than I say it. So my 81 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 5: father was Nick Aftermore. I am Melissa Aftermauer because I 82 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 5: understood that Swiss German, which is what my last name is. 83 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 5: In the realm of international German speakers, auf Dermauer is 84 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 5: how you would assume my German full sentence last name 85 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 5: is of the wall on the wall in Swiss German. 86 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 5: But it turns out that Swiss German is completely different 87 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 5: than German. So I had sort of turned into an 88 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 5: international German pronunciation Aftermower. In fact, Swiss German it's uf 89 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 5: der moule. So my father was correct in that he 90 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 5: was nick aftermore. But then I traveled the world and 91 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 5: explained it's a German sentence, and so people say alf 92 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 5: del Mauer, I said, exactly, so who It's really not 93 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 5: clear that I say Melissa Aftermauer, but people can say 94 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:23,679 Speaker 5: after more, after ma after Mower. 95 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: I have to tell you often this podcast is a 96 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 2: rabbit hole. 97 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 3: It should probably be called the rabbit Hole. 98 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 2: That is one of the best rabbit holes I think 99 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: that I've been on in a long time. 100 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 5: Yeah, name wise tricking, I mean, Swiss German is quite 101 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 5: a rabbit hole of a. 102 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 3: Like. 103 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 5: Ethnically, Swiss Germans are quite niche and remote to the world, 104 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 5: mostly because it is known to most Swiss German people 105 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 5: that they don't actually often leave the alpine villages of 106 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 5: Swiss German existence. They're quite insular. Swiss German heritage is 107 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 5: quite ancient and stays within, so there's not a lot 108 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 5: of like public facing Swiss German stories and people. So yeah, 109 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 5: it's innates with my name. It's quite underground in the 110 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 5: big mountains of Switzerland. They don't leave, they don't leave. 111 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 5: I'm one of the few. My daughter and I are 112 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 5: for the most part, the only ones of my lineage 113 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 5: in North America. 114 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 3: So well, believe it. 115 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 2: Or not, we are going to talk about your new book. 116 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: Even the good girls will cry in a second. But 117 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,239 Speaker 2: I do want to go back to that moment in time, 118 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 2: the beginning, and what was it about Montreal music and 119 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 2: the scene in the nineties that really shaped you as 120 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 2: an artist? How did that environment prepare you for what 121 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 2: was going to be coming down the railroad tracks. 122 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, obviously in the book, I go pretty 123 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 5: deep right off the bat into my two parents. The 124 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 5: top of the book is chapter one is my Incredible mother, 125 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 5: Chapter two is my incredible father, and chapter three is 126 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 5: the incredible city I was raised in. So I often 127 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 5: my whole life in fact, and even those who got 128 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 5: to know me in the rock world really understood that 129 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 5: really was my parents and my city that made me 130 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 5: unique but also uniquely prepared to dive into a global 131 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 5: stage of drama, addiction, tragedy, fame, creative, zeitgeist, all these 132 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 5: incredible things that I was thrown into at twenty two. 133 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 5: So it's both my remarkable parents and my city that 134 00:08:55,920 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 5: really shaped a unique, I guess, perspective on what it 135 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 5: means to you know, try to live your life to 136 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 5: your fullest. So I credit mostly my origins for how 137 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 5: I somehow ended up in this like once in a 138 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 5: very rare opportunity to travel the world in a giant 139 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 5: rock band and be plucked out of absolutely nowhere, like 140 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 5: I was not on the road globally seeking these wild 141 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 5: nomads to join. They found me in Montreal, hiding in 142 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 5: the underground, you know, they they detected me and I 143 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 5: often you know, obviously a lot of my story is 144 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 5: right time, right place. But it's the remarkable authenticity and 145 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 5: originality of my parents and my city that I think 146 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 5: kind of made me like visible to someone like Billy Corgan, 147 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 5: who I essentially were refer to throughout my book, but 148 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 5: also my life as my mentor, like my spiritual mentor 149 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 5: who found me in a tiny club when I was nineteen. 150 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 5: I didn't even play bass yet when I saw the 151 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 5: Smashing Pumpkins play in front of twenty people like the 152 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 5: band made an impression on me, and I introduced myself 153 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 5: at the show and he saw something in me you know, 154 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 5: I don't and we became penpals, and then the rest 155 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 5: of it became my destined story in rock music. But 156 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 5: I think it was you know, Montreal was lucky in 157 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 5: that it had a deep legacy of counterculture because of 158 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 5: the cultural movements of the French Canadian slash Quebequis. For 159 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 5: those who don't understand what the they're not actually French Canadians. 160 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 5: They reject the idea of French. They were the Quebequa, 161 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 5: the identity of the French speaking que Becker's that my 162 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 5: Anglophone parents felt a kinship to. They were counterculture underdogs 163 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 5: who wanted to represent and help underdogs get heard. And 164 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 5: in the sixties, the counterculture movements wherever you lived in 165 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 5: North America, whether it was like racial equity or you know, 166 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 5: feminist movements. My parents both aligned with the French rights. 167 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 5: The Francophone rights of Quebec was what I was really 168 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 5: raised in the in the midst of and I was 169 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 5: my parents sent set an example of fight for the underdog, 170 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 5: make sure that they get heard, fight for their rights, 171 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 5: don't let the dominant powers at b a race and claim, 172 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 5: you know, the voice of authorities. So it was a 173 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 5: lot of just resistance and resistance. And so that obviously 174 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 5: as seen in our our generation's music, everything that came 175 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 5: out of Seattle and of course Kurt who became like 176 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 5: the you know, the sacrificial Jesus figure of our generation's music. 177 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 5: It was a response to a horrific eighties Reagan era 178 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 5: in America of this corporate selloutus that you know, we 179 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 5: are now kind of seeing an unfortunate rise of again. 180 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 5: But but it really was that I just fit right 181 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 5: in and this counterculture movement of declaring that individuality and 182 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 5: not being you know, not being even though ironic, my 183 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 5: my book is titled even the Good Girls Will Cry, 184 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 5: but we are we were programmed to not be good, 185 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 5: don't like be good, and don't rock the boat. It's 186 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 5: we were programmed as a generation and as a result 187 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 5: of my parents generation to fight the powers that'd be So, 188 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 5: you know, to answer your question, I obviously fit right 189 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 5: in and whether it was my little micro of my 190 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 5: parents and my city. By the time these nomadic counterculture 191 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 5: nineties music forces were orbiting these small cities and the 192 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 5: radio stations and the local punk clubs. I was part 193 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 5: of this similar wave and they recognized me from the 194 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 5: ground up, and that's how I found my way into 195 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 5: the larger stage of the rock bands of that generation. 196 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 2: So I'm a husband of a photographer, and the backdrop 197 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 2: with which you're doing this interview as a fabulous look 198 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,559 Speaker 2: at a bunch of your photos in the background. There 199 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 2: you were studying photography and visual arts when music took 200 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: over your life. How did your artistic background influence your 201 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 2: approach to music and performance? 202 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 5: Yep, good question. I mean I again credit my origin story. 203 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 5: My mother signed me up for this experimental arts school 204 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 5: at the age of seven, So I went to a 205 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 5: visual arts performing arts school from grade one through high school. 206 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 5: So I was raised in a very eclectic, wonderfully creative 207 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 5: environment where the young people who were part of this 208 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 5: experimental school which continues to be the biggest public performing 209 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 5: arts school in Montreal, but it had started in the 210 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 5: seventies as a concept for experimental parents to sign up 211 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 5: their kids. So I was raised with truly a fine 212 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 5: art background and performance in music. So from the get go, 213 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 5: I was a multidisciplinary artist. In my mind, it's like 214 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 5: you find visual pursuit, you find a performance pursuit, you 215 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 5: find her instrument. So in my case, I was in 216 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 5: a choir and I my choir teacher, my Welsh choir teacher. 217 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 5: Through in middle school. I dedicated my first solo record too, 218 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 5: because mister Edwards showed me the power of music by 219 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 5: having middle school choir seeing the Mozart Requiem with the 220 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 5: Montreal Symphony Orchestra. So that's an example of the power 221 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 5: of music. It was in me. I gravitated towards photography, 222 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 5: and by high school I had my own darkroom and 223 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 5: I was photographing for the yearbook. So my photos just 224 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 5: started as mainly because I was sort of shy and 225 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 5: I wanted to have an agency around, you know, my perspective. 226 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 5: So I had an amazing gateway into photography very early. 227 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 5: And this is like, you know, these are freelance parents 228 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 5: with no money. I was just borrowing like a shitty 229 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 5: camera that my mother had, So it wasn't like I 230 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 5: was given all these tools. It was just makeshift creative 231 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 5: environment of oh, your interest in photography, borrow this. Oh, 232 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 5: I have a friend who's an art photographer go in 233 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 5: turn for him in his dark room on the weekend. 234 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 5: So I just found my way and found my tools 235 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 5: that resonated with me. Meanwhile, my parents were like remarkable 236 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 5: literary people, so there was no photography or music environ 237 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 5: environment at all. They were literary geniuses who could use 238 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 5: the word to express who they were. Which, obviously fast forward, 239 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 5: you know, forty years later, I ended up writing this book, which, 240 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 5: to be honest, was the most pleasure I love writing. 241 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 5: It turns out that the kind of slightly dyslexic art 242 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 5: student who thought music and photography would be better for 243 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 5: me because my grammar is terrible, I don't really you know, 244 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 5: want to compete with my amazing parents who like use 245 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 5: the word. So who knew that I would have all 246 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 5: of these actually under my own, you know roof of 247 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 5: of my upbringing and the visual thing I think just 248 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 5: gave me quite literally a perspective. So, like I talk 249 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 5: a lot in my book about turning to my camera 250 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 5: almost as a shield of protection. When I'm on tour 251 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 5: with these crazy rock bands, I would use my camera 252 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 5: to almost separate me from the audience. Like sixty thousand 253 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 5: people at my first concert, take a picture of the 254 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 5: audience so I can remember how crazy this is. My 255 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 5: visual art art just gave me an agency of my 256 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 5: own perspective while also being highly aware that I was 257 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 5: documenting history and the making of our generation. And I 258 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 5: didn't want to lose sight of my privileged perspective, which 259 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,959 Speaker 5: was I'm on stage in front of thousands of people 260 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 5: with these radical individuals that are being documented by you know, 261 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 5: Rolling Stone and MTV. But I want to have my 262 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 5: own say on how this is being documented. And then 263 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 5: that's when I kind of went into photography on the road. 264 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 5: I you know, photograph Lollapalooza for Spin magazine. So I 265 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 5: made myself available as an insider. Outsider. 266 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 3: So you joined. 267 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 2: Hole in nineteen ninety four, It was really one of 268 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 2: the most chaotic and scrutinized periods in rock history. 269 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 3: What was your first day at the office? 270 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 5: Like insane? I mean truly When I played my first 271 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 5: show with Hole, which was August of nineteen ninety four 272 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 5: at the Redding Festival. It was Courtney's first performance in 273 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 5: the wake of Kurt's suicide and Kristin, the former bass 274 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 5: player's overdose. So I had been in the band for 275 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 5: two weeks when I barely had had time to learn 276 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 5: the songs. But I did not make mistake on my 277 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 5: first show. I remember very clearly thinking, as long as 278 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 5: I can play these songs and get through this song 279 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 5: in this set, I will have done my job. So 280 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:20,439 Speaker 5: I in It was chaotic, It was emotionally kind of unspeakable. 281 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 5: It was truly, I guess someone mentioned like, obviously I 282 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 5: was in the eye of the storm. I was thrown 283 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 5: into this like eye of this orbiting the chaos and 284 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,959 Speaker 5: the wake of these deaths and the rise of this 285 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 5: fame and the confusion of our generation of what had 286 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 5: happened to our underground and I it has been said 287 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 5: that the eye of the storm is quieter than you know, 288 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 5: everything happening around it. So in a way it was 289 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 5: very quiet, you know, it was truly. I was backstage 290 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 5: focusing on my parts, focusing on is Courtney okay? Is 291 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 5: this lovely redhead drummer who will become my best friend 292 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 5: in the band? Is she okay? Is everybody okay? Are 293 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 5: we going to make it through? And in a way 294 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 5: it was very intimate, and I focused on the emotional 295 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 5: reality in my immediate environment, which was tricky. You know, 296 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 5: and there was a toddler on tour with us, because 297 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 5: Kurt had abandoned a wife and child. So I tried 298 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 5: to say, you know, present as a young woman who 299 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 5: cared about the people I was in a band with, 300 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 5: and who cared about the music and the message of 301 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 5: the music. So it was, you know, maybe a survival 302 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 5: mechanism of just focus on the here and now. But 303 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 5: it's how it's it's what happened. And then luckily I 304 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 5: had like my camera on my diary to sort of 305 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 5: keep me grounded in what seemed impossible to actually comprehend 306 00:20:57,920 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 5: at the time I was twenty two. 307 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 2: Incredible chronicling there, My god, Celebrity Skin became this massive 308 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 2: commercial success. Can you share what the creative process was 309 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 2: like in the studio and how you found your place 310 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 2: in that sound? 311 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 3: Right? 312 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 5: And so imagine I joined Hole in ninety four and 313 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,199 Speaker 5: Celebrity Skin didn't come out till ninety eight. So we 314 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 5: had this world tour of lived through this. We went 315 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 5: around the globe for over a year. It ended at 316 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 5: the MTV Awards in September of ninety five, so we 317 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 5: had this WorldWind visceral travel experience. Then we were sent 318 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 5: to write a new record, and so we descended into 319 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 5: this sort of post world tour and recovery. These people 320 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 5: were in traumatic grief of the loss of the people 321 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 5: who had so the writing of Celebrity Scan was quite laborious. 322 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 5: I describe it at length in my book of What 323 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 5: Didn't come easily We you know, and it did take 324 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 5: us three years to write and record this record, which 325 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 5: yes in I was actually just with Courtney last week 326 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 5: in la We hadn't been in Los Angeles together since 327 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 5: nineteen ninety nine, so it was like this vortex opened. 328 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 5: I oddly went my first podcast, I Lie was last 329 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 5: week recorded. Billy Corgan's podcast was the first podcast for 330 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 5: this record, for this record, it's actually a book for 331 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 5: this for this cycle. And the next day turned out 332 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:48,959 Speaker 5: Courtney was also in town and we had tea and 333 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 5: we giggled at how outrages what has happened in the 334 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 5: quarter century since we had last been in Los Angeles 335 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 5: recording and promoting and releasing a Celebrity Skin, And we 336 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 5: actually had a funny conversation about how in the quarter 337 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 5: century we were so used to when Celebrity Skin came 338 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 5: out and it was so radically different than live Through This, 339 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:18,640 Speaker 5: Lived Through This was very visceral and very feminist anthem anger, 340 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 5: and then Celebrity Skin came out and it was very 341 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 5: polished and it gone on to top forty and it 342 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 5: was like a glossy success, but there was a sense 343 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 5: of shame in there and there was a sense of well, 344 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 5: live Through this is the critically acclaimed, credible one, and 345 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 5: then did we sell out with Celebrity Skin being so glossy? 346 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 5: This arrival of pro tools is like these big budgeted 347 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 5: videos and these slick photo shoots. But the funny thing is, 348 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 5: when Corny and I were having tea last week twenty 349 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 5: five years later, is actually Celebrity Skin in some ways 350 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 5: has a aged beautifully and it has a timeless slickness. 351 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 5: But it also was a very special album. Conceptually, it 352 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 5: was her love letter to California and her love letter, 353 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 5: Courtney's love letter to the conflicts that is Hollywood. You know, 354 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 5: Fleetwood Mac was a huge inspiration for her. On that record, 355 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 5: it was like we were playing with this sort of slick, 356 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 5: feminine glossiness. And whether it's because Malibu was a top 357 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 5: forty hit whereas Lift Through This didn't have top forty hits, 358 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 5: but it has actually made an impact on pop culture 359 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 5: in ways that lived through this didn't. So I feel 360 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 5: that they both have deep, long lasting impact in very 361 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 5: different orbits. And I have met in the last few 362 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 5: years because my daughter is a fourteen year old and 363 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 5: she follows her the big, powerful, glossy pop powerhouses of 364 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:15,959 Speaker 5: her generation Billie Eilis, Olivia Rodrigo, obviously, Taylor Swift, and 365 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 5: blah blah blah. But in some ways that generation remembers 366 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 5: celebrity Skin more than they do live through This because 367 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 5: it had broader reach, and those in the know know 368 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 5: that live through this was this like wild Arrival post Kurt. 369 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 5: But if you listen to records made by powerful women today, 370 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 5: they sound much more like celebrity Skin they do lo 371 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 5: Fi live through this so well, I'm proud to say 372 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 5: that I think it aged well in that it made 373 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 5: a big impact on what now is really everybody's glossy. 374 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 5: I mean everybody uses the INTERNT, you know, the computers 375 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 5: for and everybody, you know whatever that everyone's pretty shamelessly 376 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 5: glossy at this point, even what I consider one of 377 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 5: the most powerful voices of her generation, Billie Eilish and 378 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 5: her brother Phineas. It's pretty slick. You know, what they 379 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,679 Speaker 5: make and what they deliver in the world to an 380 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 5: obviously very large audience is very slick, and I think 381 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 5: that they would maybe consider Celebrity Skin more related to 382 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 5: their work than lived through this. 383 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: You know, we'll be right back with more the Taken 384 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: a Walk podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk podcast. 385 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 2: So moving from a Whole to Smashing Pumpkins two very 386 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 2: different musical environments, did it take you a long time 387 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 2: to adapt to that? 388 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 5: I had no time. I went from one band to 389 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 5: the other in one week, so I had no time 390 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 5: to adapt. I completed my Celebrity Skin tour with Hole. 391 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 5: Courtney became a Hollywood movie star in the support of 392 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 5: our during the Celebrity Skin tour. She literally became a 393 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 5: Hollywood celebrity. So this crazy transition happened for her, and I, 394 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 5: who was committed to music, made a decision to leave 395 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 5: Hole so I could continue my pursuits in music because 396 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 5: I could see that her interests were moving into Hollywood. 397 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 5: And it was a very strange timing in that the 398 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 5: long standing bass player of the Smashing Pumpkins, Darcy, the 399 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 5: one female member of that band, had essentially disappeared during 400 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 5: the making of that last nineties Pumpkins record Machina Machines 401 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 5: of God, and there was like this incredible destined timing 402 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 5: where Billy called me one day when Darcy had disappeared 403 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 5: and said he was, you know, making this record and 404 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 5: he wanted to pull within close family friends and asked 405 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 5: if I would take her place. And it was right 406 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 5: as I was preparing to leave Hole, so I went 407 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 5: back to back in like one fell Swoop and it 408 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:23,120 Speaker 5: was quite dramatic, and it was also quite notable that 409 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 5: the bass player for this this band went into the 410 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:31,360 Speaker 5: next band, and there was a lot of Like when 411 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 5: I joined Hole replacing a deceased bass player, there was 412 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 5: quite a lot of sort of drama attached to my arrival. 413 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 5: So I was, you know, very well versed at that 414 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 5: point of arriving in dramatic fashions. But notably the music 415 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 5: transition was very exciting, and that I went from playing 416 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 5: a pretty short catalog. Hole only had three albums, and 417 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 5: not many of them were played, not many of the 418 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 5: songs were played live. But when I joined the Pumpkins, 419 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 5: they had four albums, one was a double album, they 420 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 5: had multiple b si Rarity albums, and I went from 421 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 5: the short set list to this massive because Billy is 422 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 5: a very prolific songwriter, but also he'd never wanted a 423 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 5: set to be the same twice, so I had to 424 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 5: be so nimble as a bass player and learn a 425 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 5: song a day. I had to be ready to change 426 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 5: the set list every day, and sometimes we opened for 427 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 5: our selves on this big European farewell tour. Now the 428 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 5: Pumpkins are back, but at the time, the two year 429 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 5: two thousand our tour was the finale of the Pumpkins, 430 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 5: and they did go on hiatus after that, but we 431 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 5: went on this incredible European farewell tour where we were 432 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 5: playing three to four hours a night, opening for ourselves. 433 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 5: We were playing acoustic sets for our rock sets that 434 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 5: were It was so epic, and the amount of learning 435 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,479 Speaker 5: and bass playing I had to do was exciting. I 436 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 5: had to like, really it was. I've always said whole 437 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 5: was my like bachelor's in humanity, and then the Pumpkins 438 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 5: was my masters in music, and I'm grateful for both. 439 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 5: But yeah, the music transition was incredibly dramatic and very 440 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 5: much what I needed. I wanted to get back into 441 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 5: the music after what had been a very complex five 442 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 5: years and whole where music kind of was secondary to 443 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 5: her fame and her family drama. You know, it was 444 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 5: a very complicated persona to be supporting in whole, whereas 445 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 5: the Pumpkins was always and still is about the music. 446 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 2: I'm honored you would be the second podcast you would 447 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 2: do to Billy Corgan, And I really mean that. What 448 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 2: are the characteristics that make him such an incredibly special artist? 449 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 5: Well, even just hanging out with him last week, you know, 450 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 5: there we are in our fifties. He's one of the 451 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 5: hardest working man in show business. Always was. I say 452 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 5: it in my memoir, But when I joined the band, 453 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 5: he had three rules. No mistakes, no days off, can't 454 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 5: get sick. So you know, he had a bit of 455 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 5: that James Brown reputation of you just like music comes first, 456 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 5: you don't have you know, these other like frivolous things 457 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 5: of being human don't count. So he's very, very hard working. 458 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 5: He's obviously very prolific, and some another trait he shares 459 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 5: that I share as we are not addicts. With all 460 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,719 Speaker 5: due respect and compassion for the addicts that I played 461 00:31:54,800 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 5: music with. He always music was for He is a 462 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 5: pretty healthy, saying individual. Sure he has personality quirks of 463 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 5: you know, some I don't want to name the bad 464 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 5: qualities of Billy, but he takes himself very seriously, and 465 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 5: he takes his role as a musician incredibly seriously and 466 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 5: very committed to his fans. Like if there was one 467 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 5: thing I saw on the road of the Pumpkins, Billy 468 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 5: would spend hours a day with his fans before and 469 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,719 Speaker 5: after the show. That's like a very particular thing. Maybe 470 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 5: now in the days of social media, sure fans give 471 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 5: get access, but Billy was doing that before social media. 472 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,959 Speaker 5: He is very devoted to his fans, very hard working 473 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 5: and working every day. Like when I left the podcast, 474 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 5: he records his podcast at Howie Mandel's a TV studio 475 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 5: last week in Van Nis, and he had to go 476 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 5: to the studio right after he finished his interview with 477 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 5: Nancy Wilson from Heart then me, then he went to 478 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 5: the studio. The guy is working every day all day, 479 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 5: so that's obviously a big part. And he was one 480 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 5: of those guys which I hope they still exist. But 481 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 5: he was shy and awkward and weird and unloved by 482 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 5: his parents in that kind of way, and he spent 483 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 5: every day of his childhood in his room learning how 484 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 5: to play guitar. You know, that is a important quality 485 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 5: of musicians that there is nowhere else to go, so 486 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 5: you learn your instrument. So he's a ridiculous guitar player. 487 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 5: I mean, the guy is like an amazing, you know, 488 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 5: shredder of all shredders, and he eats a songwriter, So 489 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 5: that makes him very cool. 490 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 3: Understatement. For sure. 491 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 2: Writing a memoir like Even The Good Girls Will Cry 492 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 2: certainly means confronting your. 493 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 3: Past head on. 494 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 2: Was there one chapter in particular that was the most 495 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 2: difficult to write? 496 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 5: Definitely? I mean, so my memoir, for those who hopefully 497 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 5: will read it, yes, it chronicles my time and hole 498 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 5: in the Smashing Pumpkins and my perspective of what our 499 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 5: generation went through as far as being essentially co opted 500 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 5: and raped by corporate greed. But within that coming of 501 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 5: age story, my father, who was a larger than life person, 502 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 5: not just in my life but in the city of 503 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:42,359 Speaker 5: Montreal to anybody who witnessed my city, my father has 504 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 5: a street named after him. The guy was just such 505 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 5: an incredible force, and he in his political career and 506 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 5: his journalistic career, and I had a TV show, he 507 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,919 Speaker 5: had radio shows, he had a column. He ran down 508 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 5: town Montreal on and off for a couple of decades. 509 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 5: He was so passionate for people in the Underdog. He 510 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 5: wanted to represent people. And my father was a complicated 511 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 5: man raised by real poverty immigrants, immigrants who came in 512 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 5: Europe from Europe in the thirties and raised in a 513 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 5: lot of difficult environments. He was a tortured individual who 514 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 5: smoked and drank and died at my age pretty much so. 515 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,839 Speaker 5: My father was an addict, and so later in life 516 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 5: when I'm in bands of addicts, it wasn't un familiar 517 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 5: territory for me of people burning the candle at both ends. 518 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,839 Speaker 5: So the hardest chapter, of course, in my book was 519 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 5: witnessing my father's demise and the horrendous death of my father, 520 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 5: which is disturbing personally but also just for anyone who 521 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 5: has watched someone self destruct, especially someone who loves life 522 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 5: as much as he did, and that was brutal. It 523 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 5: was like a lot of work for me, but I 524 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 5: knew to both honor my father but also heal myself 525 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,239 Speaker 5: from what was decades of me avoiding facing what I 526 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 5: went through in my twenties watching my father die. He 527 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 5: died of cancer, but it was a self induced smoking 528 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 5: and drinking cancer of cancer of the throat and mouth 529 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 5: and brain. You know, smokers and drink smoking drinking combo, 530 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 5: can you know create a real pretty aggressive cancer. You know, 531 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 5: he did smoke three packs a day his whole life, 532 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 5: from like a teenager on, so that somehow some crazy 533 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 5: drinkers and smokers lived till Nini, but he did not. 534 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 5: So that was horrendous writing that was impossible, But it 535 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 5: actually did what I needed to do, which is finally 536 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 5: face all my pain in that which I had sort 537 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 5: of tucked away for way too long. 538 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 2: So what advice would you give to young women today 539 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,240 Speaker 2: who are trying to break into the music industry? 540 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 5: Oh god, well, the industry is not what it is then, 541 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 5: and it is the world is not what it is now. 542 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 5: I know a big part of the book, other than 543 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 5: healing myself and my book is dedicated You probably don't 544 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 5: have the final version. I don't know what you say, 545 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 5: but it's dedicated to my daughter and all the girls. 546 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 5: So the future generation of women who have to do 547 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,840 Speaker 5: what I did, but with a new set of tools 548 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 5: in a new world to reckon with. And yes, do 549 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 5: I believe there's been dark entities always, sure, every hundreds, 550 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 5: every generation is dark entities of war and crisis. But 551 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:03,359 Speaker 5: in particular right now, I think young women are just 552 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 5: with the evil of the phone and the self reflection 553 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 5: of their own the you know, the beauty myths that 554 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 5: were things that me and Courtney and our generation were 555 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 5: really saying, fuck you two. You know, I went on 556 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 5: stage without even looking in the mirror. Poor girls are 557 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 5: like being asked to look at themselves every fucking second 558 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 5: on their phone. I hate what has happened to our 559 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 5: women's movement. I feel we have gone beyond backwards. This 560 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 5: is like worse than what I feel like the eighties 561 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 5: hair metal, eighties plastic like beauty Like I hated what 562 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 5: the role models were of women in the eighties that 563 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 5: we reacted to. I feel like, if you look at 564 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 5: even just the current administration in the United States, it's 565 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 5: a lot of plastic women. They look like blow up dolls. 566 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 5: They look like pornography to me. So I'm deeply concerned 567 00:38:55,640 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 5: about women's perception of female role models. So the book, 568 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 5: other than a personal self healing journey, it's trying to 569 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 5: bring up really timeless coming of age woman story beyond music, 570 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,759 Speaker 5: just how does a woman find her own voice? How 571 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 5: does a woman find power within, not the surface without, 572 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 5: you know, not what you look like, but what's inside. 573 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 5: And then also this question of digital versus analog, because 574 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 5: our generation, you know, followed the arc of an analog 575 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 5: world into a digital world, and our generation really was 576 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 5: the last coming of age and an analog reality is 577 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 5: I want to tell a story of human experience in 578 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 5: the real world, in the room that you grow up 579 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 5: with with your girlfriends, in the room with your friends 580 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 5: that you discover music with, with your friends, in the 581 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 5: real world, like even relationships are being morphed by like 582 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 5: texting and face timing. It's I want to bring readers 583 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 5: into an innocent world where all you had was the 584 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 5: people in that room and in that audience with you, 585 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,319 Speaker 5: and in that tour bus with you, or on the 586 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,800 Speaker 5: stage with you, and you know, I try to capture 587 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 5: really also the power of that music exchange between the 588 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 5: audience and the performer and remind people both in the 589 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,040 Speaker 5: book but also in my photography that it comes out 590 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 5: in the fall with my photo book that will be 591 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,839 Speaker 5: a follow up to my memoir of there was no 592 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:38,840 Speaker 5: cameras in those audiences. Those audiences gave you undivided attention 593 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 5: of true connection between humans and music. And so I 594 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 5: want to try to seduce people into imagining rebelling against 595 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 5: the digital reality, embracing the power of real relationships and 596 00:40:55,160 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 5: real analog experiences, which is always live music, live music, 597 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 5: and even to an extent I've been thinking about I've 598 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 5: always said that the power of music is you can't 599 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,879 Speaker 5: hold it. You know, music is not something you can 600 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 5: hold in your hand unless you're playing a guitar, of course, 601 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 5: But for people who love music, music fans, you listen 602 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 5: to it. You're not watching. Yeah, you can watch YouTube, 603 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 5: or you can watch music videos, but at this point, 604 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 5: the power of music still remains in the ether. So 605 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 5: what I really hope is that women in future generations 606 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 5: and this current generation living in this like overly liken 607 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 5: monitored and overly like the attack on their attention is 608 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,320 Speaker 5: so sick, like, you know, so sad that like music 609 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 5: platforms have so much video content and so so much data, 610 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,600 Speaker 5: Like just let them listen to music. Just let music 611 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 5: be the thing. So if girls can actually or young 612 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 5: people can just focus on the people that love the 613 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,840 Speaker 5: music with them, the music that is being made. Somewhere 614 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 5: in there, there's a timeless, analog power that will allow 615 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,400 Speaker 5: them to find their calling in life and find the 616 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 5: real connection, you know, and be hopefully very self aware 617 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 5: of the mining that is happening. They're you know, Courtney 618 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,840 Speaker 5: on Celebrity Skin and this amazing song Awful. It's like 619 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 5: it's a song about warning teenage girls that they are 620 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 5: coming after you. These teenage girls, their devotion to what 621 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 5: they love, their friends, their fashion, their music, that devotion 622 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 5: has been mined to a sick extent, like they started. 623 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,720 Speaker 5: You know, so much of online is trying to get 624 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 5: young girls to focus on consuming and buying products. So 625 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 5: I want women to know they have fucking power. They 626 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 5: but they are being abused by a system that wants 627 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 5: to steal their attention and steal their passion. And you 628 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,880 Speaker 5: have the power to claim that as your own and 629 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 5: not let male, dark tentacles of corporate greed take it 630 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 5: from you. Own your power, you know. Even to a 631 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 5: certain extent. You can complain about certain parts of Taylor Swift, 632 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 5: but at least she has spoken about owning her power. 633 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 5: She was abused by a male system and she got 634 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 5: it back. So there's a lot of power happening with women, 635 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,359 Speaker 5: even though there's also this sick like new trying to 636 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 5: dismantle all the amazing work that my generation and my 637 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 5: mother's generation and the suffragettes did before. Their amount of 638 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,799 Speaker 5: power over the one hundred years of women is. They're 639 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,879 Speaker 5: trying to dismantle this. They are trying to make us 640 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 5: believe that we don't have power over our bodies and 641 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:03,319 Speaker 5: over our sense of self beyond being a mother, being 642 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 5: a wife, being a fucking pawn to a male dominated world, 643 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,359 Speaker 5: you know. So my goal is to go out and 644 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 5: speak to all people to remind them they have the 645 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 5: power and they are being people are trying to control us, 646 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 5: you know, especially young people who don't know a little 647 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 5: better because they're young people. They don't know they're just 648 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 5: being like hijacked. 649 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,400 Speaker 2: You've continued to create, whether it's it's music, visual art, 650 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,880 Speaker 2: or running Basilica Hudson, which I want you to talk about. 651 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 2: How do these creative outlets feed each other? 652 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 5: Well, they're all connected. I mean again, it kind of 653 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 5: comes down to my origin story. I mean, I think 654 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 5: that it's even Freud that talks about like creative imprints 655 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,879 Speaker 5: on your young self comes from your childhood. So much 656 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,879 Speaker 5: of like early memories of beauty or things that move 657 00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,399 Speaker 5: you always kind of come from the same place, the 658 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:04,240 Speaker 5: things that awoke your spirit when you're young. Basilica Hudson, 659 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:11,239 Speaker 5: my nonprofit Reclaimed eighteen eighties factory devoted to independent, innovative 660 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 5: arts and culture, is just an extension of what I 661 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,360 Speaker 5: grew up with and what was instilled in my values 662 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,920 Speaker 5: by my parents, which is create an environment where individual, 663 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:27,880 Speaker 5: authentic voices, independent voices can be heard. So all of 664 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:32,880 Speaker 5: it is just trying to create spaces of independent belief 665 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,480 Speaker 5: and independent passions and not be part of a system 666 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,520 Speaker 5: which is more and more clear to many is very 667 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,880 Speaker 5: broken and very corrupt. So all of it is just 668 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,840 Speaker 5: a continuation of the same thing of just trying to 669 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 5: empower individuals to believe that they have a say in 670 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,399 Speaker 5: the world and they don't have to conform to other 671 00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:57,239 Speaker 5: larger forces. 672 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:03,000 Speaker 2: Melissa, So, since we do call this little podcast Taken 673 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:07,239 Speaker 2: a Walk, is there someone you would like to take 674 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 2: a walk with? Living or dead? 675 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 5: Oh? Sure? Do I get to pick the location too? 676 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,360 Speaker 3: Sure? And you could pick more than more than one? 677 00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:15,919 Speaker 1: Yeah? 678 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,520 Speaker 5: Oh cool? Maybe I could have an array of people. Okay, 679 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,240 Speaker 5: So in the Hudson Valley there's this incredible My favorite 680 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 5: Victorian stroll that I take is this beautiful castle basically 681 00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:30,560 Speaker 5: on the Hudson River called Olana, which was founded by 682 00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 5: the Hudson River Painter School movement. So Frederick Church was 683 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:38,520 Speaker 5: a painter in the mid late eighteen hundreds and he 684 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:44,359 Speaker 5: created this like utopian visual utopia surrounded by mountains and 685 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,320 Speaker 5: what looked like Renaissance skies. Every day in the Hudson 686 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 5: Valley on these great Catskill mountains, and I take walks 687 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,160 Speaker 5: with my friends who have dogs. I'm a cat person, 688 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,640 Speaker 5: but I like taking walks with dog walkers through these 689 00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:02,440 Speaker 5: strolling Victorian view sheds. And I would love to walk 690 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:09,400 Speaker 5: with Carl Jung to speak about man and his symbols 691 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,319 Speaker 5: and all of this symbolic you know, the power of 692 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:19,440 Speaker 5: visual symbols and esoteric attempts to make sense of this 693 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:23,000 Speaker 5: crazy world that we live in alongside. Okay, I could 694 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,280 Speaker 5: be really dramatic. It would be hard for her stroll 695 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,600 Speaker 5: that I could pull push free to Collo in some 696 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:34,160 Speaker 5: cool magic rolling bed. And then I would add, let's say, 697 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,760 Speaker 5: someone a great one of my favorite first ever photographers 698 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,520 Speaker 5: that sort of sound. It looked like what I was 699 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,759 Speaker 5: trying to get from my inner visuals, which is this 700 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:50,160 Speaker 5: great photographer named Francesca Woodman who died by suicide at 701 00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:54,160 Speaker 5: a young age, but she was a very pioneering woman 702 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,839 Speaker 5: who turned the camera on herself at a very young 703 00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,400 Speaker 5: age to do what I ended up doing in our school, 704 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:04,640 Speaker 5: which was contemplating what the muses are to these like 705 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,440 Speaker 5: you know all these male artists who painted women or 706 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:13,440 Speaker 5: who sculpted women. But what if the women take themselves 707 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,239 Speaker 5: as the muse, So be the hybrid of like the 708 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 5: creator and the mews. So I'd like a walk with 709 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,560 Speaker 5: those three people overlooking beautiful Hudson River Skies. 710 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:29,399 Speaker 2: Melissa, congratulations on even the good Girls will cry. There 711 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,520 Speaker 2: are so many moments when I do this podcast I 712 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:36,120 Speaker 2: go how did I get so lucky to be doing this? 713 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,240 Speaker 3: And this is another one of those moments. 714 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,600 Speaker 2: I'm incredibly grateful that you took the time to be 715 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,160 Speaker 2: on taking a walk. I hope, I hope it felt 716 00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,480 Speaker 2: like we were just hanging out at the coffee shop. 717 00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,000 Speaker 5: Yes, we were. I love hanging out of coffee shops. 718 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:55,160 Speaker 5: One of my favorites tea cats, by the fire, strolling 719 00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,840 Speaker 5: looking at skies my favorite. So appreciate you having me 720 00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:03,160 Speaker 5: on and and hopefully your listeners. I want to take 721 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,960 Speaker 5: a deep dive into nineties rock through a female photographer 722 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:08,160 Speaker 5: bass player's lens. 723 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:14,040 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Melissa, You're welcome. I'm Buzznight and 724 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,839 Speaker 2: thanks for listening to the Taking a Walk podcast. Now, 725 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:21,680 Speaker 2: please check out our companion podcasts produced by Buzznight Media 726 00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:26,120 Speaker 2: Productions with your host, Lynn Hoffman. Music Save Me, showcasing 727 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:30,640 Speaker 2: the healing power of music, and comedy Save Me shining. 728 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,040 Speaker 3: A light on how laughter is the best medicine. 729 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:38,400 Speaker 2: All shows are available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and are 730 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,040 Speaker 2: part of the iHeart podcast network.