WEBVTT - #331 Maggie Freleng with Deborah Nicholls

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<v Speaker 1>The evening of March sixth, two thousand and three, was

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<v Speaker 1>a typical Thursday for the Nichols family. That night, Deborah

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<v Speaker 1>Nichols put her three energetic kids to bed. After her

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<v Speaker 1>husband Tim got home, she left the house to interview

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<v Speaker 1>an employee for their karaoke business. When she returned home,

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<v Speaker 1>her world had been turned upside down that night.

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<v Speaker 2>I went from just needing to hire someone to fill

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<v Speaker 2>a shift to losing my whole little family.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a mother's worst nightmare. And when it was over,

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<v Speaker 1>all three of Deb's children had died in a terrible accident.

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<v Speaker 1>She was so stricken with grief that she couldn't bring

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<v Speaker 1>herself to attend their funeral.

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<v Speaker 2>I was trying to get ready to go to the

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<v Speaker 2>funeral and my body was breaking down and I was

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<v Speaker 2>shaking so bad, and I just had to sit down

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<v Speaker 2>and give in and surrender. I can't go. I can't

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<v Speaker 2>do it. I couldn't imagine seeing three, three caskets. It

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<v Speaker 2>was too much. It was too much. My name is

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<v Speaker 2>Deb Nichols. I'm currently serving three life sentences at Denver

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<v Speaker 2>Women's Correctional.

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<v Speaker 1>Facility from LoVa for Good. This is wrongful conviction with

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<v Speaker 1>Maggie Freeling today dead. Nichols Deborah Nichols was born May fourth,

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen sixty seven, born Michigan. She grew up in a large,

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<v Speaker 1>blended family.

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<v Speaker 2>Having seven brothers and sisters was a blast. We had

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<v Speaker 2>a great childhood. Northern Michigan has beautiful weather. It's like

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<v Speaker 2>the perfect four seasons, so we as children took full

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<v Speaker 2>rain with all of it and did a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>skating and skiing and swimming, or just going down to

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<v Speaker 2>the end of the street to the bay and playing

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<v Speaker 2>in the water all day, all summer long. We had

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<v Speaker 2>so much fun.

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<v Speaker 1>So can you tell listeners about Zebra? What's she like?

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<v Speaker 1>What was she like growing up?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, as you probably gathered talking to her, she's a

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<v Speaker 3>pretty strong girl.

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<v Speaker 1>This is Deb's father, Doug bamb Gardner.

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<v Speaker 3>Pretty strong will and has no problems doing things her

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<v Speaker 3>way and trying to tat what she's headed for. She

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<v Speaker 3>was always that way all of her life.

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<v Speaker 1>Her family later moved to Colorado, but for college, Deb

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<v Speaker 1>carved her own path and moved out to California. After

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<v Speaker 1>studying at San Diego for a year, Deb left the

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<v Speaker 1>West Coast and joined her family in Colorado. When Deb

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<v Speaker 1>was twenty four, she gave birth to her first child,

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<v Speaker 1>a son. They called him JJ.

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<v Speaker 2>JJ's nickname was Peanut, and he was just absolutely beautiful,

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<v Speaker 2>like he was my little buddy, my little man, and

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<v Speaker 2>we did everything together.

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<v Speaker 1>Deb went on to have a second son, Spencer, but tragically,

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<v Speaker 1>when he was three months old, Spencer passed away from

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<v Speaker 1>sudden infant death syndrome, also known as sid's. Despite her loss,

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<v Speaker 1>Deb continued to try and be the best mom she

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<v Speaker 1>could JJ. By nineteen ninety three, she was living in

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<v Speaker 1>a suburb of Colorado Springs, working two jobs and going

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<v Speaker 1>to school. One night, she went out to a local

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<v Speaker 1>bar to let loose and indulge in one of her passions,

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<v Speaker 1>singing karaoke. What is your karaoke song? Do you have

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<v Speaker 1>a go to?

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<v Speaker 2>I really liked What's Up with four Non Blonde?

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<v Speaker 1>I do love that song.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, it's a good one.

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<v Speaker 1>When Deb walked in, a man was already at the mic.

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<v Speaker 1>She recognized the song right away.

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<v Speaker 2>You Are My Shining Star, which is one of my

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<v Speaker 2>favorite songs in like eighth grade. And he was really

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<v Speaker 2>cute and he was new and I had never seen

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<v Speaker 2>him before, and I was like, hey, that's one of

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<v Speaker 2>my favorite songs, you know, come sit by Me.

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<v Speaker 1>His name was Tim Nichols, and they hit it off.

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<v Speaker 2>We talked all night long and we basically never left

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<v Speaker 2>each other's side after that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, described him to me, what what does he like?

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<v Speaker 2>Tim is a lot of powerhouse and a little guy.

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<v Speaker 2>He's like five nine. He had integrity, which is something

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<v Speaker 2>that was so hard to find. It such a rare

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<v Speaker 2>quality nowadays. And because he's just such a good guy

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<v Speaker 2>through the right thing no matter what. And I that

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<v Speaker 2>was the kind of guy I wanted to be with forever.

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<v Speaker 1>Tim and Deb were best friends, and Tim loved JJ

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<v Speaker 1>like his own son.

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<v Speaker 2>Tim and JJ were just like so bonded that Tim

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<v Speaker 2>adopted JJ and we got married and started our family.

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<v Speaker 2>I have to say it, I loved getting married. I

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<v Speaker 2>loved being married. It really does take your relationship to

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<v Speaker 2>a different level.

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<v Speaker 1>Soon after that, in nineteen ninety seven, their daughter Sophia

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<v Speaker 1>was born.

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<v Speaker 2>She was absolutely amazing. She loved people to be happy,

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<v Speaker 2>she was always smiling, She was she was the essence

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<v Speaker 2>of joy.

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<v Speaker 1>Two years later, their second daughter, Sierra came. They nicknamed

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<v Speaker 1>her Rara.

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<v Speaker 2>That little girl was just so calming and so peaceful.

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<v Speaker 2>And she would just like go around the room and

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<v Speaker 2>check everything out. She was just so little and delicate

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<v Speaker 2>and beautiful. Jg was my passion, Sophia was my joy,

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<v Speaker 2>and ra Ra was my peace. They were my absolute world.

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<v Speaker 2>I was so blessed.

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<v Speaker 1>The family was thriving. Deb was working on getting her

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<v Speaker 1>real estate license. They had started a construction business and

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<v Speaker 1>even bought a house. They were busy, but they found

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<v Speaker 1>time for each other too.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, once I have was done nursing, we started

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<v Speaker 2>going out, you know, on date nights, and we went

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<v Speaker 2>to a karaoke bar, and like it was so fun,

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<v Speaker 2>like soul food.

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<v Speaker 1>Deb and Tim decided to start a side business together,

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<v Speaker 1>doing something they loved, the thing that had brought them together,

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<v Speaker 1>a karaoke business.

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<v Speaker 2>We took the plunge and started our own and got

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<v Speaker 2>really good equipment and you know, I got all those

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<v Speaker 2>songs like the Gries duets and stuff. It was just

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<v Speaker 2>really fun. It was for pure enjoyment, just go be

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<v Speaker 2>able to let loose and enjoy yourself.

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<v Speaker 1>Deb, Tim and their family had everything going for.

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<v Speaker 2>Them, living the American dream basically.

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<v Speaker 1>But that dream soon came to a crashing halt. On

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<v Speaker 1>the evening of March sixth, two thousand and three, Deb

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<v Speaker 1>was home with her three children, getting them ready for bed.

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<v Speaker 2>JJ was going to a birthday party on Friday, which

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<v Speaker 2>this lady was taking ten little twelve year old skiing.

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<v Speaker 2>So I got a bunch of you know, chips and

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<v Speaker 2>stuff and bought the girls some sparkly tattoos, old temporary tattoos,

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<v Speaker 2>because you can't get one kid's stuff without the other

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<v Speaker 2>kids getting stuff too.

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<v Speaker 1>She says. The kids were really hyper that night.

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<v Speaker 2>I had to put them back to bed like three

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<v Speaker 2>or four times, because you know, the girls were excited

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<v Speaker 2>about these sparkly tattoos, and JJ was excited about his

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<v Speaker 2>birthday party excursion.

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<v Speaker 1>The next day, the kids finally fell asleep, which gave

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<v Speaker 1>Deb time to catch up on some chores around the house.

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<v Speaker 1>Tim got home from work around eleven that night, and

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<v Speaker 1>he was tired.

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<v Speaker 2>I knew he'd worked really hard all week, and I

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<v Speaker 2>told Tim, you know, I'd cleaned the house, I lick

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<v Speaker 2>candles for the ambiance, and I literally had dinner in

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<v Speaker 2>the oven and his favorite beer in the freezers so

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<v Speaker 2>he could just have a beer in dinner.

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<v Speaker 1>Deb had an appointment to go meet a new karaoke

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<v Speaker 1>jockey for their business.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was like, you know, I have to go

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<v Speaker 2>to this kJ interview. Make sure you blow up the

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<v Speaker 2>candles and I left.

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<v Speaker 1>After the interview, DEB hung around the bar like she

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<v Speaker 1>usually did. She had a few drinks and sang some karaoke, and.

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<v Speaker 2>Because I had a drink or two, I didn't want

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<v Speaker 2>to drive.

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<v Speaker 1>So when the bar was closing around two am, DEB

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<v Speaker 1>asked one of her employees, Carl, for a ride home.

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<v Speaker 1>Everything was business as usual until they turned onto deb Street.

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<v Speaker 2>You could see the emergency lights as we were coming

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<v Speaker 2>up the street, and the closer we got to my street,

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<v Speaker 2>the more emergency vehicles that we could see. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I started a panic and I just asked Carl to

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<v Speaker 2>stop the car, and I got out of the car

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<v Speaker 2>and started running around the corner and saw it was

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<v Speaker 2>my house and it was on fire. And the closer

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<v Speaker 2>I got, you know, there's probably two hundred people in

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<v Speaker 2>front of my house. And I kept hearing everyone go,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, that's her, that's the mom, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the panic was setting in. I was literally terrified, and

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<v Speaker 2>my brain was like, I just I needed to get

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<v Speaker 2>to the back and make sure the kids are okay,

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<v Speaker 2>And and these cops and these firemen were like pushing

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<v Speaker 2>me back, say, and it was almost like they were

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<v Speaker 2>wrestling me to the ground because I'm like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I need to go see if my children are okay.

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<v Speaker 2>I need to get back to the house.

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<v Speaker 1>Officials told her she needed to go to the hospital,

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<v Speaker 1>but they weren't telling her what was going on.

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<v Speaker 2>It looked really bad. But if the only way I

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<v Speaker 2>could get information was to go to the hospital, it

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<v Speaker 2>was like fine, And so I went. And the whole

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<v Speaker 2>ride to the hospital, like the policeman didn't tell me anything.

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<v Speaker 1>This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company.

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<v Speaker 1>AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and to making

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<v Speaker 1>a positive difference in the lives of its employees and

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<v Speaker 1>in the communities where they work and live. In light

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<v Speaker 1>of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and

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<v Speaker 1>in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform,

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<v Speaker 1>the AIG pro Bono Program provides free legal services and

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<v Speaker 1>other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. When deb got

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<v Speaker 1>to the hospital, she was taken to a room to

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<v Speaker 1>wait for the doctor to come and talk with her.

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<v Speaker 2>And he walked in and she said, JJS is dead.

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<v Speaker 2>Good night, remember saying dead. It no no one anything

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<v Speaker 2>about dead. And then he said sar May the youngest.

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<v Speaker 2>She died off, and.

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<v Speaker 4>I felt my mind leave my body and the adrenaline

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<v Speaker 4>and my body took over, and I.

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<v Speaker 5>Ran out of the hospital and my only thought was

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<v Speaker 5>I just.

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<v Speaker 2>Need to go.

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<v Speaker 5>We'll go, I mean walk to the Pacific Ocean and

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<v Speaker 5>that's it doesn't make any sense that I now look

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<v Speaker 5>back and like that was the.

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<v Speaker 2>Adrenaline and the panic and where I always feel the safest,

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<v Speaker 2>on the beach by the water.

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<v Speaker 1>It turns out Sophia was still alive, but she didn't

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<v Speaker 1>have long to live.

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<v Speaker 2>And I went back in the hospital and they led

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<v Speaker 2>me to Sophia's room and she was had tubes everywhere.

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<v Speaker 2>There was a little clear spot on her little chest,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was able to put my head on her

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<v Speaker 2>chest and put my ear to her heart, and I

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<v Speaker 2>could hear her heart beating, and it was beating so fast.

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<v Speaker 1>Tim was also in critical condition. In the process of

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<v Speaker 1>trying to save him, the doctors had taken Tim's wedding

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<v Speaker 1>ring off. Deb asked if she could keep it, and

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<v Speaker 1>then she was confronted with more agony.

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<v Speaker 2>And then they asked me to say goodbye to Sierra,

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<v Speaker 2>me my baby girl that we called raw Rah. And

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<v Speaker 2>I got told her and say goodbye, and she didn't

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<v Speaker 2>look hurt or burned or anything. She just looked like

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<v Speaker 2>she was sleeping. Raba was a real big daddy's girl,

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<v Speaker 2>and she loved her daddy so much. And I looked

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<v Speaker 2>at the wedding ring in my hand as Kim's, and

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<v Speaker 2>I decided to put that on her so this could

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<v Speaker 2>be buried with it.

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<v Speaker 1>Sierra and JJ had both died of smoke inhalation. Sophia

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<v Speaker 1>was still hanging on for dear life, and Tim had

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<v Speaker 1>been transferred to a burn unit in Denver, and Dev's

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<v Speaker 1>family and friends were starting to arrive at the hospital.

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<v Speaker 2>They all wanted to help me, but there was no

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<v Speaker 2>helping me. I was devastated. I was terrified, this panicked,

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<v Speaker 2>and I didn't want anyone to touch me. I was

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<v Speaker 2>just so sick of everyone trying to hug me, like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I have to figure this out.

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<v Speaker 1>By morning, DEB was informed that Sophia had also died.

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<v Speaker 2>And I put my wedding ring on Sophia's little finger,

0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:15.200
<v Speaker 2>and I got to say goodbye to Sophia, and then

0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:18.440
<v Speaker 2>I went right to the hospital up in Denver and

0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.440
<v Speaker 2>was with Tim and my family and we just we

0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:25.480
<v Speaker 2>sat vigil with Tim.

0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:32.440
<v Speaker 1>Tim's injuries were serious, but eventually he was able to

0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:35.680
<v Speaker 1>leave the hospital. With no home to go back to,

0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:38.160
<v Speaker 1>the two of them lived out of a motel room.

0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:43.040
<v Speaker 1>Deb's father and stepmother stayed close to help. Tim was

0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:46.000
<v Speaker 1>still recovering from his injuries, and Doug took charge of

0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.440
<v Speaker 1>his care, tending to his burns and changing his bandages.

0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:52.040
<v Speaker 3>I was the only one that could take care of

0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:56.600
<v Speaker 3>the burns without pulkit and getting sick. So anyway, that

0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:59.720
<v Speaker 3>was my job for the rest of the time we

0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:00.200
<v Speaker 3>were there.

0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:04.160
<v Speaker 1>But Doug was also having a hard time. His daughter

0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.080
<v Speaker 1>had lost her children and he had lost his grandchildren.

0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:10.639
<v Speaker 3>Can I show you a picture of the kids? Have

0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:11.520
<v Speaker 3>you ever seen one?

0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:12.320
<v Speaker 2>Show me?

0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:21.480
<v Speaker 6>I got to reach it up there, I see. And anyway,

0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.280
<v Speaker 6>this was the last picture of them. This was taken

0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:26.000
<v Speaker 6>just before they all died.

0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:27.440
<v Speaker 1>When was that Christmas?

0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:32.480
<v Speaker 3>Just after? Yeah, in March, I guess, but they had

0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:34.040
<v Speaker 3>little halos on even.

0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:45.240
<v Speaker 2>I went from just needing to hire someone to fill

0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:50.160
<v Speaker 2>a shift to losing my whole little family.

0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.560
<v Speaker 1>Deb and Tim had lost their children, their home, and

0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:07.320
<v Speaker 1>everything they owned, and as they struggled with their grief,

0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:09.880
<v Speaker 1>their marriage was deteriorating.

0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:18.480
<v Speaker 2>We weren't doing well at all. Actually, our souls were broken.

0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:22.359
<v Speaker 2>We weren't He wasn't the same man, I wasn't the

0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:27.240
<v Speaker 2>same woman. We were fighting constantly in it was horrible.

0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:31.000
<v Speaker 2>We were in different places with the grieving, you know,

0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.199
<v Speaker 2>like he would want to remember the kids and I

0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:37.680
<v Speaker 2>would be like in denial, and we just couldn't get

0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:39.880
<v Speaker 2>on the same page. And we were actually doing more

0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:44.399
<v Speaker 2>damage to each other than we were helping. None of

0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:49.040
<v Speaker 2>any of it made any sense. I was not thinking clearly.

0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.360
<v Speaker 2>I literally would buy boxes of wine and put them

0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:56.040
<v Speaker 2>in my windowsill, and when I'd wake up in the morning,

0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:58.920
<v Speaker 2>I'd start drinking whites in and I'd drink it all day.

0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:05.760
<v Speaker 3>She ended up coming home here with us, and she

0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:09.080
<v Speaker 3>was still basically in trauma. I mean we're talking months

0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.840
<v Speaker 3>after the fire, and you know, me and her were

0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:17.680
<v Speaker 3>going down to her bedroom till she cried herself asleep.

0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:23.879
<v Speaker 1>And it was about to get a lot worse because

0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:26.359
<v Speaker 1>Tim was the sole survivor from inside the house. Fire,

0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:30.400
<v Speaker 1>police were suspicious. One day, the police called him into

0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:32.679
<v Speaker 1>the station, saying they needed him to pick up some

0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:35.440
<v Speaker 1>property from the fire, but Deb says it was a

0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:36.639
<v Speaker 1>ruse to get her alone.

0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:40.000
<v Speaker 2>As soon as he left, the doorbell rang and it

0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:45.320
<v Speaker 2>was Derek Graham and another detective and they were like,

0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:47.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, oh, we need to talk to you. We

0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:50.920
<v Speaker 2>think your husband did this. And I remember telling them

0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:53.720
<v Speaker 2>absolutely not. They didn't know what they were talking about.

0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:58.800
<v Speaker 2>My husband loved his children more than his own life.

0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:01.600
<v Speaker 2>They said, well, well, we have evidence. I said, no,

0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:05.080
<v Speaker 2>you don't, and if you do, it's wrong. And then

0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:08.760
<v Speaker 2>I asked them to leave, and I thought that would

0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:11.280
<v Speaker 2>be the end of it, but it wasn't.

0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:17.440
<v Speaker 1>Detective Graham was also scrutinizing Deb's behavior, particularly at the hospital.

0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:21.159
<v Speaker 2>And then he put like his notes that I wasn't

0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:25.320
<v Speaker 2>crying properly or whatever. And I'm thinking, you didn't think

0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:28.840
<v Speaker 2>I was crying properly. I couldn't even remember to breathe

0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.359
<v Speaker 2>or close my mouth, and you're judging me like that.

0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:36.240
<v Speaker 1>But the way Detective Graham saw it, these two parents

0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:39.360
<v Speaker 1>had something to do with the deaths of their children.

0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:49.560
<v Speaker 1>After a two year investigation, on July twenty first, two

0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:52.879
<v Speaker 1>thousand and five, the grand jury indicted Tim Nichols for

0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:56.880
<v Speaker 1>the murders of eleven year old Jj, five year old Sophia,

0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:00.800
<v Speaker 1>and three year old Sierra. Deb was also indicted that

0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:05.000
<v Speaker 1>day for minor counts from before the fire, including drug use,

0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:08.040
<v Speaker 1>but more than two years later, in November two thousand

0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:11.879
<v Speaker 1>and seven, she too was indicted for the murders of

0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:21.879
<v Speaker 1>their children. Deb and Tim were tried separately. Tim's trial

0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:26.159
<v Speaker 1>came first before Deb's trial even began. He was convicted

0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:32.399
<v Speaker 1>of three counts of first degree murder. Deb's trial started

0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:36.600
<v Speaker 1>on October fourteenth, two thousand and eight. The prosecutors, Assistant

0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:40.879
<v Speaker 1>district attorneys Amy Mulaney and David Lindsay, presented the theory

0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:44.879
<v Speaker 1>that Deb had developed an addiction to methamphetamine and needed

0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:48.440
<v Speaker 1>money for drug related debts, so she conspired with Tim

0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:52.040
<v Speaker 1>to burn down their house and family for the insurance money.

0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:55.840
<v Speaker 1>They said that meth users would do anything to get

0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:56.640
<v Speaker 1>more meth.

0:21:58.160 --> 0:22:01.160
<v Speaker 7>And according to the prosecution, that would include killing their

0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:04.800
<v Speaker 7>three children to get more methamphetamine, and there was very

0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:08.080
<v Speaker 7>little evidence to support that at all, but that was

0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:08.760
<v Speaker 7>their theory.

0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:12.639
<v Speaker 1>This is Kathleen Lord. She's a staff attorney at the

0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:17.000
<v Speaker 1>Cory Wise Innocence Project at Colorado Law, Kathleen says that

0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:19.919
<v Speaker 1>while Deb did do drugs occasionally.

0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:23.840
<v Speaker 7>There's not evidence that she was a meth addict. She

0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:28.000
<v Speaker 7>was first turned on to meth by one of the

0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:32.920
<v Speaker 7>state's witnesses as a way to lose weight, and there

0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:37.920
<v Speaker 7>was a lot of speculation on the prosecution's part.

0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:42.000
<v Speaker 1>The state had one major problem with its case. Deb

0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:44.720
<v Speaker 1>wasn't home the night of the fire, so the state

0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:47.679
<v Speaker 1>argued she had to have an accomplice. They said she

0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:50.679
<v Speaker 1>planned it with Tim, who had already been convicted.

0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:54.199
<v Speaker 8>There's something that we're uncomfortable with, and I think that

0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:56.879
<v Speaker 8>we're uncomfortable with the fact that there was a father

0:22:57.240 --> 0:22:59.840
<v Speaker 8>at home with his children and he escaped the fire

0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:01.240
<v Speaker 8>and his children didn't.

0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:04.320
<v Speaker 1>Anne Marie Moyas is the director of the Corey Wise

0:23:04.359 --> 0:23:07.679
<v Speaker 1>Innocence Project. She says that right from the beginning, the

0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:10.760
<v Speaker 1>police focused on Deb and Tamas suspects.

0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:14.480
<v Speaker 8>There's a real impulse to blame him and to embrace

0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:17.679
<v Speaker 8>narratives that put him at fault for what happened, and

0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:20.560
<v Speaker 8>so I think that was the kernel that started all

0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:24.960
<v Speaker 8>of this, and then the confirmation bias sets in, and

0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:28.480
<v Speaker 8>then every piece of evidence is seen through this lend

0:23:28.520 --> 0:23:30.520
<v Speaker 8>of that expectation.

0:23:32.280 --> 0:23:34.080
<v Speaker 1>Here's how the state's case began.

0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:41.560
<v Speaker 8>Somewhat early in the investigation, they led an arson dog

0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:44.600
<v Speaker 8>through the fire scene and the dog was trained to

0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:48.280
<v Speaker 8>alert to the possible presence of an ignitable liquid, and

0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:51.600
<v Speaker 8>the dog did alert at multiple locations in the living room,

0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:54.199
<v Speaker 8>in the stairway at the house. They said, okay, well

0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:59.679
<v Speaker 8>we found xilenes, and xilenes are a chemical compound in

0:23:59.800 --> 0:24:00.960
<v Speaker 8>a nightable liquids.

0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:05.960
<v Speaker 1>Xilens are also commonly detected when furniture and other household

0:24:06.000 --> 0:24:09.479
<v Speaker 1>items burn in a fire. Yet, the prosecution argued that

0:24:09.520 --> 0:24:13.120
<v Speaker 1>the presence of xilenes showed that the fire was deliberately

0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:15.360
<v Speaker 1>set using an ignitable liquid.

0:24:16.680 --> 0:24:20.600
<v Speaker 8>They had an expert whose name is John Dehan, and

0:24:21.040 --> 0:24:25.440
<v Speaker 8>he testified that he was able to determine that only

0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:29.400
<v Speaker 8>a fire set at multiple locations simultaneous in the living

0:24:29.480 --> 0:24:32.280
<v Speaker 8>room could have grown large enough to engulf the entire room.

0:24:32.680 --> 0:24:35.840
<v Speaker 8>So it was beyond dispute that the living room did

0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:38.960
<v Speaker 8>go to flashover, meaning that the entire room was engulfed

0:24:39.000 --> 0:24:43.840
<v Speaker 8>in flames. But his theory was that only a deliberately

0:24:43.880 --> 0:24:46.879
<v Speaker 8>set fire could have produced that result.

0:24:47.520 --> 0:24:50.880
<v Speaker 1>And to further bolster this theory, the state brought in

0:24:50.920 --> 0:24:54.000
<v Speaker 1>a jailhouse snitch. When Tim was in jail, he was

0:24:54.080 --> 0:24:58.400
<v Speaker 1>placed next to a notorious informant named Hiram Church.

0:24:59.720 --> 0:25:03.159
<v Speaker 8>With in a day or two of being in custody.

0:25:03.520 --> 0:25:06.760
<v Speaker 8>Mister Church claimed to have heard Tim confess to him,

0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:09.240
<v Speaker 8>and then they were able to use the jailhouse snitch

0:25:09.320 --> 0:25:11.720
<v Speaker 8>to tie it together because the jail house snitch said

0:25:12.040 --> 0:25:15.240
<v Speaker 8>that Tim had admitted to him to using an ignitable

0:25:15.280 --> 0:25:19.199
<v Speaker 8>liquid called goof off to start the fire, and xilenes

0:25:19.280 --> 0:25:21.640
<v Speaker 8>are a primary ingredient of goof off.

0:25:22.480 --> 0:25:25.160
<v Speaker 1>The state said that Tim put goof off, a household

0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:28.399
<v Speaker 1>cleaning product all over the furniture and had the kids

0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:31.560
<v Speaker 1>sit on it that evening. Then when the fire ignited,

0:25:31.920 --> 0:25:36.159
<v Speaker 1>the children would already have the flammable substance on them them.

0:25:36.240 --> 0:25:39.120
<v Speaker 8>And what was critical is that mister Church, the jail

0:25:39.160 --> 0:25:41.840
<v Speaker 8>house informant, said not only that Tim had confessed, but

0:25:41.880 --> 0:25:44.119
<v Speaker 8>that he had implicated Deb in the crime.

0:25:59.560 --> 0:26:03.639
<v Speaker 1>The state also criticized Deb's behavior following her children's deaths.

0:26:04.280 --> 0:26:07.600
<v Speaker 1>They called in an insurance adjuster to testify that when

0:26:07.600 --> 0:26:09.879
<v Speaker 1>she showed up at their office. She had on a

0:26:09.880 --> 0:26:14.280
<v Speaker 1>white track suit with freshly manicured nails, implying that she

0:26:14.359 --> 0:26:19.080
<v Speaker 1>was dressed inappropriately for a bereft mother. The state relentlessly

0:26:19.240 --> 0:26:21.440
<v Speaker 1>picked apart her grieving process.

0:26:22.000 --> 0:26:24.320
<v Speaker 2>I get it because I didn't know how to do

0:26:24.359 --> 0:26:24.760
<v Speaker 2>it either.

0:26:26.359 --> 0:26:26.800
<v Speaker 5>I don't know.

0:26:27.440 --> 0:26:30.160
<v Speaker 2>Things like that come in waves like you just can't

0:26:30.400 --> 0:26:34.399
<v Speaker 2>you sob uncontrollably, and then you can't think for a

0:26:34.560 --> 0:26:37.920
<v Speaker 2>sob or do anything for a while, and then it'll

0:26:38.000 --> 0:26:40.359
<v Speaker 2>hit you and I don't know, it's like a cycle

0:26:40.400 --> 0:26:43.040
<v Speaker 2>of denial and devastation.

0:26:44.359 --> 0:26:47.119
<v Speaker 1>They also brought up the fact that deb didn't attend

0:26:47.119 --> 0:26:51.360
<v Speaker 1>her children's funeral. How come you didn't attend the funeral.

0:26:54.720 --> 0:26:57.520
<v Speaker 2>I had lost my second son, Spencer, when he was

0:26:57.920 --> 0:27:02.160
<v Speaker 2>three months old, and I had to have a funeral.

0:27:02.280 --> 0:27:07.399
<v Speaker 2>It's a little tiny casket and I barely made it

0:27:07.400 --> 0:27:14.120
<v Speaker 2>through that, and I just I was trying to get

0:27:14.160 --> 0:27:18.960
<v Speaker 2>ready to go to the funeral, and my body was

0:27:19.000 --> 0:27:23.199
<v Speaker 2>breaking down and I was shaking so bad. And you know,

0:27:23.280 --> 0:27:26.359
<v Speaker 2>my daughters loved to me get ready in the morning,

0:27:26.600 --> 0:27:29.440
<v Speaker 2>and they would be like, you know, mom, we went pretties,

0:27:29.520 --> 0:27:32.880
<v Speaker 2>and I was trying to get ready for the funeral,

0:27:32.920 --> 0:27:35.960
<v Speaker 2>but I just had to sit down and give in

0:27:36.119 --> 0:27:42.080
<v Speaker 2>and surrender. I can't go. I can't do it. I

0:27:42.119 --> 0:27:45.000
<v Speaker 2>didn't want to go to the funeral and have it

0:27:45.080 --> 0:27:50.399
<v Speaker 2>be about me breaking down instead of people getting to

0:27:50.480 --> 0:27:56.760
<v Speaker 2>say goodbye to my beautiful children. So I went and

0:27:56.800 --> 0:28:01.440
<v Speaker 2>I sat out in the car until after the funeral,

0:28:01.720 --> 0:28:05.000
<v Speaker 2>and then I went and I thank people for coming.

0:28:09.000 --> 0:28:13.800
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't. I just I couldn't imagine seeing three, three caskets.

0:28:15.000 --> 0:28:17.680
<v Speaker 2>It was too much. It was too much.

0:28:33.080 --> 0:28:36.560
<v Speaker 1>Deb's defense attorneys were Deputy Public Defender Cindy Jones and

0:28:36.600 --> 0:28:41.080
<v Speaker 1>Jeffrey Schwartz. They called multiple witnesses to refute the prosecution's

0:28:41.120 --> 0:28:45.440
<v Speaker 1>idea that deb wasn't grieving properly, and as Anne Marie

0:28:45.440 --> 0:28:49.840
<v Speaker 1>Moyas explains, they also called in the prominent fire expert

0:28:50.160 --> 0:28:51.000
<v Speaker 1>John Lntini.

0:28:51.960 --> 0:28:56.920
<v Speaker 8>He disputed all of the prosecution's evidence and their interpretation

0:28:57.080 --> 0:28:58.880
<v Speaker 8>of the evidence, but at the end of the day,

0:28:59.320 --> 0:29:03.600
<v Speaker 8>it was his against multiple experts on the prosecution side,

0:29:04.040 --> 0:29:08.600
<v Speaker 8>and the prosecution did a pretty good job of characterizing

0:29:09.040 --> 0:29:11.760
<v Speaker 8>Lentini as some sort of hired gun that the defense

0:29:11.840 --> 0:29:15.120
<v Speaker 8>had paid. It wasn't a fair characterization, but it was

0:29:15.160 --> 0:29:19.840
<v Speaker 8>a success. They were successful in portraying him that way.

0:29:19.880 --> 0:29:22.880
<v Speaker 1>Over a month later, on November twenty fourth, two thousand

0:29:22.920 --> 0:29:25.800
<v Speaker 1>and eight, Deb Nichols was convicted of three counts a

0:29:25.880 --> 0:29:29.680
<v Speaker 1>first degree murder. She was sentenced to three consecutive life

0:29:29.720 --> 0:29:36.240
<v Speaker 1>terms in prison. Deb has passed her time in prison

0:29:36.360 --> 0:29:38.440
<v Speaker 1>trying to come to terms with what has happened in

0:29:38.480 --> 0:29:39.080
<v Speaker 1>her life.

0:29:40.240 --> 0:29:43.440
<v Speaker 2>I try to do the things that I know will help,

0:29:43.640 --> 0:29:49.280
<v Speaker 2>like journaling and singing, and working out, and going to

0:29:49.440 --> 0:29:53.640
<v Speaker 2>church at Red Rocks God behind bars, and keeping my

0:29:53.720 --> 0:29:56.320
<v Speaker 2>heart open so that I can feel that pure love

0:29:56.360 --> 0:30:00.880
<v Speaker 2>with my children, and fighting to clear our aims because

0:30:02.200 --> 0:30:03.880
<v Speaker 2>we had nothing to do with that fire.

0:30:09.640 --> 0:30:12.920
<v Speaker 1>In twenty twenty, Kathleen Ann Marie and the Corey Wise

0:30:12.960 --> 0:30:17.880
<v Speaker 1>Innocence Project joined experienced criminal defense lawyer Janine McCabe in

0:30:18.000 --> 0:30:19.680
<v Speaker 1>taking on Deb's case.

0:30:20.600 --> 0:30:23.040
<v Speaker 8>So the main thing that we've done is brought on

0:30:23.240 --> 0:30:27.600
<v Speaker 8>new leading experts in fire science to explain the changes

0:30:27.640 --> 0:30:30.000
<v Speaker 8>in fire science that have taken place since the time

0:30:30.000 --> 0:30:30.520
<v Speaker 8>of trial.

0:30:31.520 --> 0:30:34.400
<v Speaker 1>And not only that, in the time since the trial happened,

0:30:34.760 --> 0:30:38.080
<v Speaker 1>the state's expert, John Dehn, has been discredited.

0:30:38.800 --> 0:30:42.360
<v Speaker 8>He for many years was considered one of the leading

0:30:42.640 --> 0:30:45.840
<v Speaker 8>experts in fire science in this country. But what we

0:30:45.880 --> 0:30:49.280
<v Speaker 8>know now is that he acted unethically in other cases,

0:30:49.320 --> 0:30:53.240
<v Speaker 8>and in fact, the American Association of Forensic Science voted

0:30:53.280 --> 0:30:56.920
<v Speaker 8>to expel him from membership because of that unethical conduct.

0:30:58.000 --> 0:31:01.160
<v Speaker 1>Dehn, who passed away in twenty twenty two to continued

0:31:01.200 --> 0:31:04.080
<v Speaker 1>to stand by his testimony. This is him speaking in

0:31:04.120 --> 0:31:05.800
<v Speaker 1>twenty nineteen about the case.

0:31:07.120 --> 0:31:11.000
<v Speaker 9>I've read, examine the data and the findings a number

0:31:11.040 --> 0:31:15.440
<v Speaker 9>of times over the years, and I still hold my

0:31:15.960 --> 0:31:20.160
<v Speaker 9>conclusions expressed in the Tim Nichols trial as well as

0:31:20.640 --> 0:31:25.360
<v Speaker 9>Deborah Nichols, that fire was deliberately started in the living

0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:27.040
<v Speaker 9>room of the residents.

0:31:27.440 --> 0:31:31.680
<v Speaker 1>However, the science to Han was touting has also been discredited.

0:31:32.280 --> 0:31:36.200
<v Speaker 1>The defensive trial expert John Lntini also maintains his trial

0:31:36.240 --> 0:31:40.880
<v Speaker 1>testimony and emphasizes these changes in science. To this day,

0:31:41.080 --> 0:31:42.920
<v Speaker 1>he defends Debra's innocence.

0:31:44.200 --> 0:31:49.400
<v Speaker 10>It's not up to Timothy or Deborah to prove what

0:31:49.520 --> 0:31:52.720
<v Speaker 10>caused that fire. What we have learned about the behavior

0:31:52.760 --> 0:31:57.120
<v Speaker 10>of fire since the Nickels fire is that the patterns

0:31:57.160 --> 0:32:00.520
<v Speaker 10>that we read after a big fire like the are

0:32:00.560 --> 0:32:02.160
<v Speaker 10>not reliable evidence.

0:32:03.280 --> 0:32:06.760
<v Speaker 8>We can now say definitively that the samples that were

0:32:06.800 --> 0:32:09.800
<v Speaker 8>taken from the Nichols living room show that they were

0:32:09.840 --> 0:32:12.520
<v Speaker 8>just the natural byproduct of the fire, that they did

0:32:12.560 --> 0:32:15.920
<v Speaker 8>not come from an ignitable liquid. So there's absolutely no

0:32:16.160 --> 0:32:19.479
<v Speaker 8>evidence anymore that there was an ignitable liquid present at

0:32:19.520 --> 0:32:24.040
<v Speaker 8>the fire scene, and that new science just exposes the

0:32:24.080 --> 0:32:27.120
<v Speaker 8>prosecution's case for what it is, which is just a

0:32:27.160 --> 0:32:29.680
<v Speaker 8>house of cards that just doesn't stand up under any

0:32:29.680 --> 0:32:30.560
<v Speaker 8>sort of inspection.

0:32:31.560 --> 0:32:35.400
<v Speaker 1>The jailhouse informant, Hiram Church, has also been discredited.

0:32:36.160 --> 0:32:39.520
<v Speaker 8>We see that in cases of wrongful convictions that sometimes

0:32:39.520 --> 0:32:42.320
<v Speaker 8>when these jailhouse informants are used, what we find out

0:32:42.320 --> 0:32:45.840
<v Speaker 8>about their history is that they miraculously have heard confessions

0:32:45.840 --> 0:32:48.160
<v Speaker 8>in a number of other high profile murder cases, and

0:32:48.200 --> 0:32:49.520
<v Speaker 8>that was true of mister Church.

0:32:51.080 --> 0:32:54.040
<v Speaker 1>The Corey Wise Innocence Project submitted a motion for a

0:32:54.080 --> 0:32:57.680
<v Speaker 1>new hearing to the courts in October of twenty twenty two.

0:32:57.800 --> 0:33:00.920
<v Speaker 1>If accepted, there will be an evidentiary hearing where Deb

0:33:01.000 --> 0:33:04.520
<v Speaker 1>can present this evidence to the court. In the meantime,

0:33:04.640 --> 0:33:06.800
<v Speaker 1>she tries to keep healthy and stays in touch with

0:33:06.840 --> 0:33:10.520
<v Speaker 1>the family she has left. Although Deb and Tim are divorced,

0:33:10.800 --> 0:33:13.800
<v Speaker 1>they've remained friends and write letters to each other in prison.

0:33:17.120 --> 0:33:20.240
<v Speaker 2>We're both just trying to grieve and heal and get

0:33:20.240 --> 0:33:24.800
<v Speaker 2>our names cleared and get the truth out and take

0:33:24.840 --> 0:33:31.000
<v Speaker 2>it day by day. At this point, it's hard to

0:33:31.080 --> 0:33:37.560
<v Speaker 2>talk about trauma. It's hard to talk about losing my babies.

0:33:40.200 --> 0:33:45.680
<v Speaker 2>But I was just hoping that people, especially women that

0:33:45.760 --> 0:33:53.360
<v Speaker 2>get wrongly convicted, can find some type of strength, seet

0:33:53.400 --> 0:33:55.280
<v Speaker 2>through it, and keep fighting.

0:33:59.160 --> 0:34:01.240
<v Speaker 1>Deb thinks back to the night of the fire, often

0:34:01.720 --> 0:34:05.960
<v Speaker 1>remembering her kid's rambunctious energy at bedtime. Now she thinks

0:34:05.960 --> 0:34:07.480
<v Speaker 1>of that night in a new way.

0:34:09.440 --> 0:34:11.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm so glad that I got to put him back

0:34:11.719 --> 0:34:16.880
<v Speaker 2>to bed four or five times, because I didn't realize

0:34:16.920 --> 0:34:18.560
<v Speaker 2>that would be the last time I got to kiss

0:34:18.600 --> 0:34:22.560
<v Speaker 2>him good night. And I'm really really grateful I got

0:34:23.200 --> 0:34:24.799
<v Speaker 2>a bunch as her kisses.

0:34:24.480 --> 0:34:25.120
<v Speaker 10>In that night.

0:34:34.040 --> 0:34:35.920
<v Speaker 1>If you want to help Deb and the Corey Wise

0:34:35.920 --> 0:34:44.239
<v Speaker 1>Innocence Project, go to the links in our bio. Next time,

0:34:44.400 --> 0:34:47.600
<v Speaker 1>un Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling Ashley Jordan.

0:34:48.920 --> 0:34:51.640
<v Speaker 2>He was about to say he did it just so

0:34:51.800 --> 0:34:53.840
<v Speaker 2>I can go home and won't go to jail, and

0:34:53.920 --> 0:34:55.640
<v Speaker 2>I looked at him and I grabbed his hand and

0:34:55.680 --> 0:34:59.279
<v Speaker 2>I said, no, you're not you will not lie for

0:34:59.360 --> 0:35:01.840
<v Speaker 2>these people. That's because we didn't do anything wrong.

0:35:06.440 --> 0:35:09.600
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. Please

0:35:09.600 --> 0:35:12.680
<v Speaker 1>support your local innocence organizations and go to the links

0:35:12.680 --> 0:35:15.000
<v Speaker 1>in our bio to see how you can help. I'd

0:35:15.040 --> 0:35:18.480
<v Speaker 1>like to thank our executive producers Jason Flamm and Kevin Wurtis,

0:35:18.680 --> 0:35:22.560
<v Speaker 1>as well as our senior producer, Annie Chelsea, producer Lyla Robinson,

0:35:22.680 --> 0:35:25.880
<v Speaker 1>and story editor Sonia Paul. The show is edited and

0:35:25.960 --> 0:35:29.600
<v Speaker 1>mixed by Annie Chelsea, with additional production by Jeff Cliburn

0:35:29.719 --> 0:35:32.759
<v Speaker 1>and Connor Hall. The music in this production is by

0:35:32.800 --> 0:35:37.040
<v Speaker 1>three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. The news clips

0:35:37.040 --> 0:35:41.200
<v Speaker 1>heard in this episode were reported by Laura Martin at KKTV.

0:35:42.560 --> 0:35:45.280
<v Speaker 1>Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

0:35:45.560 --> 0:35:49.200
<v Speaker 1>on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at

0:35:49.280 --> 0:35:52.160
<v Speaker 1>wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On

0:35:52.239 --> 0:35:55.280
<v Speaker 1>all three platforms, you can also follow me on both

0:35:55.280 --> 0:35:59.320
<v Speaker 1>Instagram and Twitter at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with Maggie

0:35:59.360 --> 0:36:02.319
<v Speaker 1>Freeling is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in

0:36:02.400 --> 0:36:12.840
<v Speaker 1>association with Signal Company Number one