Speaker 1: The evening of March six, two three was a typical
Speaker 1: Thursday for the Nichols family. That night, Deborah Nichols put
Speaker 1: her three energetic kids to bed. After her husband Tim
Speaker 1: got home, she left the house to interview an employee
Speaker 1: for their karaoke business. When she returned home, her world
Speaker 1: had been turned upside down that night. I went from
Speaker 1: just needing to hire someone to still shift to losing
Speaker 1: my whole little family. It was a mother's worst nightmare.
Speaker 1: And when it was over, all three of Deb's children
Speaker 1: had died in a terrible accident. She was so stricken
Speaker 1: with grief that she couldn't bring herself to attend their funeral.
Speaker 1: I was trying to get ready to go to the funeral,
Speaker 1: and my my body was breaking down and I was
Speaker 1: shaking so bad, and I just had to sit down
Speaker 1: and give in and surrender. And I can't go. I
Speaker 1: can't do it. I couldn't imagine seeing three, three caskets.
Speaker 1: It was too much, It was too much. My name
Speaker 1: is Dead Nichols. I'm currently serving three life sentences at
Speaker 1: Denver Women's Correctional Facility from LoVa for Good. This is
Speaker 1: wrongful conviction with Maggie freeling today dead. Nichols Deborah Nichols
Speaker 1: was born May fourth, nineteen sixty seven in d Were born, Michigan.
Speaker 1: She grew up in a large, blended family. Having seven
Speaker 1: brothers and sisters was a blast. We had a great childhood.
Speaker 1: Northern Michigan has beautiful weather, like the perfect fourth seasons,
Speaker 1: so we as children's took full rain with all of
Speaker 1: it and did a lot of skating and skiing and
Speaker 1: swimming and or just going down to the end of
Speaker 1: the street to the bay and planing in the water
Speaker 1: all day, all summer long. We had so much fun.
Speaker 1: So can you tell listeners about Debra? What's she like?
Speaker 1: What was she like growing up? Well, as you probably
Speaker 1: gathered talking to her, she's a pretty strong girl. This
Speaker 1: is Deb's father, Doug bomb Gardner. Pretty strong will and
Speaker 1: has no problems doing things her way and trying to
Speaker 1: a taint what she's headed for. She was always that
Speaker 1: way all of her life. Her family later moved to Colorado,
Speaker 1: but for college, deb carved her own path and moved
Speaker 1: out to California. After studying at San Diego for a year,
Speaker 1: Deb left the West Coast and joined her family in Colorado.
Speaker 1: When deb was twenty four, she gave birth to her
Speaker 1: first child, a son. They called him j J J J.
Speaker 1: His nickname was Peanut, and he was just absolutely beautiful,
Speaker 1: like he was my little my little buddy, my little man,
Speaker 1: and we did everything together. Deb went on to have
Speaker 1: a second son, Spencer, but tragically, when he was three
Speaker 1: months old, Spencer passed away from sudden infant death syndrome,
Speaker 1: also known as SIDS. Despite her loss, Deb continued to
Speaker 1: try and be the best mom she could. You J J. By,
Speaker 1: She was living in a suburb of Colorado Springs, working
Speaker 1: two jobs and going to school. One night, she went
Speaker 1: out to a local bar to let loose and indulge
Speaker 1: in one of her passions, singing karaoke. What is your
Speaker 1: karaoke song? Do you have a go to? UM? I
Speaker 1: really liked What's Up with Foreignan Blonde? I do love
Speaker 1: that song. Yeah, it's a good one. When Deed walked in,
Speaker 1: a man was already at the mic. She recognized the
Speaker 1: song right away. And you are My Shining Star, which
Speaker 1: was one of my favorite songs in eighth grade. And
Speaker 1: he was really cute and he was new and I
Speaker 1: had never seen him before, and I was like, hey,
Speaker 1: that's one of my favorite songs, you know, come fit
Speaker 1: by Me. His name was Tim Nichols and they hit
Speaker 1: it off. We talked all night long and we basically
Speaker 1: never left each other's side after that. Yeah, described him
Speaker 1: to me, what what is he like? Kim is uh
Speaker 1: a lot of powerhouse and a little guy. He's like
Speaker 1: five nine five ten. Um. He had integrity, which is
Speaker 1: something that was so hard to find in such a
Speaker 1: rare quality nowadays. And because he's just such a good guy,
Speaker 1: do the right thing no matter what. And I that
Speaker 1: was the kind of guy I wanted to be with forever.
Speaker 1: Tim and Deb were best friends, and Tim loved JJ
Speaker 1: like his own son. Him and j J were just
Speaker 1: like so bonded. Um that Tim adopted j J and
Speaker 1: we got married and started our family. I have to
Speaker 1: say I loved getting married. I loved being married. Um.
Speaker 1: It really does take your relationship to a different level.
Speaker 1: Soon after that, their daughter Sophia was born. She was
Speaker 1: absolutely amazing. She loved people to be happy. She was
Speaker 1: always smiling. She was she was the asking for joy.
Speaker 1: Two years later, their second daughter, Sierra came They nicknamed
Speaker 1: her ra Ra. That little girl was just so calming,
Speaker 1: and so peaceful, and she would just like go around
Speaker 1: the room and check everything out. She was just so
Speaker 1: little and delicate and beautiful. J G was my passion,
Speaker 1: Sophia was my joy, and Rarah was my piece. They
Speaker 1: were my absolute world. I was so blacked. The family
Speaker 1: was thriving. Deb was working on getting her real estate license.
Speaker 1: They had started a construction business and even bought a house.
Speaker 1: They were busy, but they found time for each other too.
Speaker 1: You know, once I have was done nursing, we started
Speaker 1: going out, you know, on date nights, and we went
Speaker 1: to a karaoke bar and like it was so fun,
Speaker 1: it's like soul food. Deb and Tim decided to start
Speaker 1: aside business together, doing something they loved, the thing that
Speaker 1: had brought them together, a karaoke business. We took the
Speaker 1: plunge and started our own and got really good equipment
Speaker 1: and you know, I got all those songs like that,
Speaker 1: greased duets and stuff. Um, it was just really fun.
Speaker 1: It was for is pure enjoyment. Just go be a little,
Speaker 1: let loose and enjoy yourself. Deb Tim and their family
Speaker 1: had everything going for them, living the American dream basically,
Speaker 1: but that dream soon came to a crashing Halt. On
Speaker 1: the evening of March six, two three, Deb was home
Speaker 1: with her three children, getting them ready for bed. JJ
Speaker 1: was going to a birthday party on Friday with this
Speaker 1: lady was taking ten little twelve year old skiing. So
Speaker 1: I got a bunch of you know, chips and stuff
Speaker 1: and bought the girls some sparkly tattoos, little temporary tattoos,
Speaker 1: because you can't get one kid stuff without the other
Speaker 1: kids getting stuffed too. She says. The kids were really
Speaker 1: hyper that night, but I had to put them back
Speaker 1: to bed like three or four times, because you know,
Speaker 1: the girls were excited about these sparkly tattoos and j
Speaker 1: J was excited about his birthday party excursion. The next day,
Speaker 1: the kids finally fell asleep, which gave Deb time to
Speaker 1: catch up on some chores around the house. Tim got
Speaker 1: home from work around eleven that night, and he was tired.
Speaker 1: I knew he had worked really hard all week, and
Speaker 1: I told him, you know, I'd cleaned the house, I
Speaker 1: can of lit candles for the ambiance, and I literally
Speaker 1: had dinner in the raven and his favorite beer in
Speaker 1: the freezer so he could just have a beer and dinner.
Speaker 1: Deb had an appointment to go meet a new karaoke
Speaker 1: jockey for their business, and I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: I have to go do this kJ interview. Make sure
Speaker 1: you blow up the candles and I left. After the interview,
Speaker 1: DEB hung around the bar like she usually did. She
Speaker 1: had a few drinks and sang some karaoke, and because
Speaker 1: I had a drink or two, I didn't want to drive.
Speaker 1: So when the bar was closing around two am, DEB
Speaker 1: asked one of her employees, Carl, for a ride home.
Speaker 1: Everything was business as usual until they turned onto Depp Street.
Speaker 1: You could see the emergency lights as we were coming
Speaker 1: up the street, and um, the closer we got to
Speaker 1: my street, the more emergency vehicles that we could see,
Speaker 1: and so I started to panic and I just asked
Speaker 1: Carl to stop the car and I got out of
Speaker 1: the car and started rounding around the corner and saw
Speaker 1: it was my house and it was on fire. And
Speaker 1: the closer I got, you know, there's probably two hundred
Speaker 1: people in front of my house. And I kept hearing
Speaker 1: everyone go, you know that's her, that's the mom. You know,
Speaker 1: the panic was setting me in. I was literally terrified,
Speaker 1: and my brain was like I just I needed to
Speaker 1: get to the back and make sure the kids are okay.
Speaker 1: And and these cops and these firemen were like pushing
Speaker 1: me back from the sand. It was almost like they
Speaker 1: were wrestling us as a crown because I'm like, you know,
Speaker 1: I need to go see if my children are okay.
Speaker 1: I need to get back to the house. Officials told
Speaker 1: her she needed to go to the hospital, but they
Speaker 1: weren't telling her what was going on. It looked really bad,
Speaker 1: but it's the only way I could get information was
Speaker 1: to go to the hospital. It was like fine, and
Speaker 1: so I went. And the whole ride to the hospital,
Speaker 1: like the policeman didn't tell me anything. This episode is
Speaker 1: underwritten by a i G, a leading global insurance company.
Speaker 1: A i G is committed to corporate social responsibility and
Speaker 1: to making a positive difference in the lives of its
Speaker 1: employees and in the communities where they work and live.
Speaker 1: In light of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance,
Speaker 1: and in recognition of a i g s commitment to
Speaker 1: criminal and social justice reform, the a i G pro
Speaker 1: Bono Program provides free legal services and other support to
Speaker 1: underrepresented communities and individuals. When deb got to the hospital,
Speaker 1: she was taken to a room to wait for the
Speaker 1: doctor to come and talk with her. You know. He
Speaker 1: walked in and she said, J jus dead, isn't I
Speaker 1: remember saying dead? It no anything about dead. And then
Speaker 1: he said, um, Sara made the youngest. She died off,
Speaker 1: and I felt my mind leave my body and the
Speaker 1: adrenaline and my body took over, and I ran out
Speaker 1: of hospital and my only thought was I just need
Speaker 1: to go go. I mean walk to the Pacific Ocean,
Speaker 1: and that's it doesn't make any sense. But I now
Speaker 1: look back and like that was the adrenaline and the
Speaker 1: panic and where I always feel the safest, on the
Speaker 1: beach by the water. It turns out Sophia was still alive,
Speaker 1: but she didn't have long to live. And I went
Speaker 1: back in the hospital and they led me to Sofia's
Speaker 1: room and she was had troops everywhere. There was a
Speaker 1: little clear spot on her little chest, and I was
Speaker 1: able to put my head on her chest and put
Speaker 1: my ear to her heart, and I could hear a heartbeating,
Speaker 1: and it was beating so fast. Tim was also in
Speaker 1: critical condition. In the process of trying to save him,
Speaker 1: the doctors had taken Tim's wedding ring off. Deb asked
Speaker 1: if she could keep it, and then she was confronted
Speaker 1: with more agony. And then they asked me to say
Speaker 1: goodbye to Sierra, me my baby girl that we called Rara,
Speaker 1: and then went and I got told burn say goodbye.
Speaker 1: And she didn't look hurt or burned or anything. She
Speaker 1: just looked like she was sleeping. Robert was a real
Speaker 1: big daddy's girl, and she loved her daddy so much.
Speaker 1: And I looked at the wedding ring in my hand
Speaker 1: as Kim's, and then I decided to put that on
Speaker 1: her so that she could be buried with it. Sierra
Speaker 1: and JJ had both died of smoke inhalation. Sophia was
Speaker 1: still hanging on for dear life, and Tim had been
Speaker 1: transferred to a burn unit in Denver, and Dad's family
Speaker 1: and friends were starting to arrive at the hospital. They
Speaker 1: all wanted to help me, but there was no helping me.
Speaker 1: I was devastated. I was terrified, was panicked, and I
Speaker 1: didn't want anyone to touch me. I was just so
Speaker 1: sick of everyone trying to hug me, like you No,
Speaker 1: I have to figure this out. By morning, Deb was
Speaker 1: informed that Sophia had also died. And I put my
Speaker 1: wedding ring on Sophia's little finger, and I got to
Speaker 1: say goodbye to Sofia, and then I went into the
Speaker 1: hospital up in Denver, and it was with him and
Speaker 1: my family and we just we sat vigil with him.
Speaker 1: Tim's injuries were serious, but eventually he was able to
Speaker 1: leave the hospital. With no home to go back to,
Speaker 1: the two of them lived out of a motel room.
Speaker 1: Deb's father and stepmother stayed close to help. Tim was
Speaker 1: still recovering from his injuries, and Dug took charge of
Speaker 1: his care, tending to his burns and changing his bandages.
Speaker 1: I was the only one that could take care of
Speaker 1: the burns without pilkingting getting sick. So anyway, that was
Speaker 1: my job for the rest of the time we were there.
Speaker 1: But Doug was also having a hard time. His daughter
Speaker 1: had lost her children and he had lost his grandchildren.
Speaker 1: Can I show you a picture of the kids? Have
Speaker 1: you ever seen one? Show me? I gotta reach it
Speaker 1: up there, I see. And anyway, this was the last
Speaker 1: picture of them. This was taken just before they all died.
Speaker 1: When was that Christmas? Just after? Yeah, in March, I guess.
Speaker 1: But they had little halos on even I went from
Speaker 1: just needing to hire someone to fill a shift to
Speaker 1: losing my whole little family. Ebb and Tim had lost
Speaker 1: their children, their home, and everything they owned, and as
Speaker 1: they struggled with their grief, their marriage was deteriorating. We
Speaker 1: weren't doing well at all. Actually, our souls were broken.
Speaker 1: We weren't He wasn't the same man. I wasn't the
Speaker 1: same woman. You're fighting constantly, and it was horrible. You
Speaker 1: were in different places with the grieving, you know, like
Speaker 1: he would want to remember the kids and I would
Speaker 1: be like and denial, and we just couldn't get on
Speaker 1: the same page. And we were actually doing more damage
Speaker 1: to each other than we were helping. None of any
Speaker 1: of it made any sense. I was not thinking clearly.
Speaker 1: I literally would buy boxes of wine and put them
Speaker 1: in my window sill, and when I'd wake up in
Speaker 1: the morning, I'd start drinking white Zin and I'd drink
Speaker 1: it all day. She ended up coming home here with us,
Speaker 1: and she was still basically in trauma. I mean we're
Speaker 1: talking months after the fire, and you know, I, me
Speaker 1: and her would go down to her bedroom until she
Speaker 1: cried herself asleep, and it was about to get a
Speaker 1: lot worse. Because Tim was the sole survivor from inside
Speaker 1: the house fire, police were suspicious. One day, the police
Speaker 1: called him into the station, saying they needed him to
Speaker 1: pick up some property from the fire, but Deb says
Speaker 1: it was a ruse to get her alone. As soon
Speaker 1: as he left, the doorbell ring and it was Derek
Speaker 1: Graham and another detective and they were like, you know, oh,
Speaker 1: we need to talk to you. We think your husband
Speaker 1: did this. And I remember telling them absolutely not. They
Speaker 1: didn't know what they were talking about. My husband loved
Speaker 1: his children more than his own life. They said, we
Speaker 1: have evidence. I said, no, you don't, and if you do,
Speaker 1: it's wrong. And then I asked them to leave, and
Speaker 1: I thought that would be the end of it, but
Speaker 1: it wasn't. Detective Graham was also scrutinizing Deb's behavior, particularly
Speaker 1: at the hospital, and then he put like his notes
Speaker 1: that I wasn't crying properly or whatever. And I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: you didn't think I was crying properly. I couldn't even
Speaker 1: remember to breathe or closed my mouth and you're judging
Speaker 1: me like that. But the way Detective Graham saw it,
Speaker 1: these two parents had something to do with the deaths
Speaker 1: of their children. After a two year investigation, on July
Speaker 1: twenty one, two thousand five, the grand jury indicted Tim
Speaker 1: Nichols for the murders of eleven year old j j,
Speaker 1: five year old Sophia, and three year old Sierra. Deb
Speaker 1: was also indicted that day for minor counts from before
Speaker 1: the fire, including drug use, but more than two years later,
Speaker 1: in November two thousand seven, she too was indicted for
Speaker 1: the murders of their children. Deb and Tim were tried separately.
Speaker 1: Tim's trial came first before Deb's trial even began. He
Speaker 1: was convicted of three counts of first degree murder. Deb's
Speaker 1: trial started on October four, two. The prosecutors, Assistant district
Speaker 1: attorneys Amy Mulaney and David Lindsay, presented the theory that
Speaker 1: Deb had developed an addiction to meth amphetamine and needed
Speaker 1: money for drug related debts, so she conspired with Tim
Speaker 1: to burn down their house and family for the insurance money.
Speaker 1: They said that math users would do anything to get
Speaker 1: more meth and according to the prosecution, that would include
Speaker 1: killing their three children to get more methamphetamine, and there
Speaker 1: was very little evidence to support that at all, but
Speaker 1: that was their theory. This is Kathleen Lord. She's a
Speaker 1: staff attorney at the Corey Wise Innocence Project at Colorado Law.
Speaker 1: Kathleen says that while Deb did do drugs occasionally, there's
Speaker 1: not evidence that she was a meth addict. She was
Speaker 1: first turned on to meth um by one of the
Speaker 1: state's witnesses as a way to lose weight, and there
Speaker 1: was a lot of speculation on the prosecution's part. The
Speaker 1: state had one major problem with its case. Deb wasn't
Speaker 1: home the night of the fire, so the state argued
Speaker 1: she had to have an accomplice. They said she planned
Speaker 1: it with Tim, who had already been convicted. There's something
Speaker 1: that we're uncomfortable with, and I think that we're uncomfortable
Speaker 1: with the fact that there was a father at home
Speaker 1: with his children and he escaped the fire, his children didn't.
Speaker 1: Anne Marie Moyez is the director of the Corey Wise
Speaker 1: Innocence Project. She says that right from the beginning, the
Speaker 1: police focused on Deb and Tamas suspects. There's a real
Speaker 1: impulse to blame him and to embrace narratives that put
Speaker 1: him at fault for what happened. And so I think
Speaker 1: that was the colonel that started all of this, and
Speaker 1: then the confirmation bias sets in, and then every piece
Speaker 1: of evidence is seen through this lend of that expectation.
Speaker 1: Here's how the state's case began. Somewhat early in the investigation,
Speaker 1: they led an arson dog through the fire scene and
Speaker 1: the dog was trained to alert to the possible presence
Speaker 1: of an ignitable liquid, and the dog did alert at
Speaker 1: multiple locations in the living room in the stairway of
Speaker 1: the house. They said, okay, well we found zylenes and um.
Speaker 1: Zilenes are a chemical compound in it innitible liquids. Zilenes
Speaker 1: are also commonly detected when furniture and other household items
Speaker 1: burn in a fire. Yet, the prosecution argued that the
Speaker 1: presence of zylenes showed that the fire was deliberately set
Speaker 1: using an ignitable liquid. They had an expert. His name
Speaker 1: is John dohn and Um. He testified that he was
Speaker 1: able to determine that only a fire set at multiple
Speaker 1: locations simultaneous in the living room could have grown large
Speaker 1: enough to engulf the entire room. So it was beyond
Speaker 1: dispute that the living room did go to flashover, meaning
Speaker 1: that the entire room was engulfed in flames, but his
Speaker 1: theory was that only a deliberately set fire could have
Speaker 1: produced that result, and to further bolster this theory, the
Speaker 1: state brought in a jailhouse snitch. When Tim was in jail,
Speaker 1: he was placed next to a notorious informant named Hiram
Speaker 1: Church with in a day or two of being in custody.
Speaker 1: Mr Church claimed to have heard Tim confess to him,
Speaker 1: and then they were able to use the jailhouse snitch
Speaker 1: to tie it together because the jailhouse snitch said that
Speaker 1: Tim had admitted to him to using an ignitable liquid
Speaker 1: called goof off to start the fire, and zilenes are
Speaker 1: primary ingredient of goof off. The state said that Tim
Speaker 1: put goof off, a household cleaning product, all over the
Speaker 1: furniture and had the kids sit on it that evening.
Speaker 1: Then when the fire ignited, the children would already have
Speaker 1: the flammable substance on them them And what was critical
Speaker 1: is that Mr Church, the jailhouse informant, said not only
Speaker 1: that Tim had confessed, but that he had implicated Deb
Speaker 1: in the crime. The state also criticized Deb's behavior following
Speaker 1: her children's deaths. They called in an insurance adjuster to
Speaker 1: testify that when she showed up at their office, she
Speaker 1: had on a white track suit with freshly manicured nails,
Speaker 1: implying that she was dressed inappropriately for a bereft mother.
Speaker 1: The state relentlessly picked apart her grieving process. I get
Speaker 1: it because I didn't know how to do it either.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Things like that come in waves, like
Speaker 1: you just can't you sob uncontrollably, and then you can't
Speaker 1: think or sob or do anything for a while, and
Speaker 1: then it'll hit you and I don't know, it's like
Speaker 1: a cycle of denial and devastation. They also brought up
Speaker 1: the fact that deb didn't attend her children's funeral. How
Speaker 1: come you didn't attend the funeral? Um, I had lost
Speaker 1: my second son, Spencer, when he was three months old,
Speaker 1: and I had to have a funeral. It's a little
Speaker 1: tiny casket and I barely made it through that, and
Speaker 1: I just I was trying to get ready to go
Speaker 1: to the funeral, and my my body was breaking down
Speaker 1: and I was shaking so bad. And you know, my
Speaker 1: daughters loved to me get ready in the morning and
Speaker 1: they would be like, you know, mom, we went pretties
Speaker 1: and I was trying to get ready for the funeral,
Speaker 1: but I just had to sit down and give in
Speaker 1: and surrender. And I can't go. I can't do it.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to go to the funeral, and how
Speaker 1: it be about me breaking down instead of people getting
Speaker 1: takeod bye to my beauty of children. Soaks, I went
Speaker 1: and I sat out in the car until after the funeral,
Speaker 1: and then I went and I thanked people for coming.
Speaker 1: I couldn't. I just couldn't. I couldn't imagine seeing three,
Speaker 1: three caskets. It was too much. It was too much.
Speaker 1: Deb's defense attorneys were Deputy Public Defender Cindy Jones and
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Schwartz. They called multiple witnesses to refute the prosecution's
Speaker 1: idea that deb wasn't grieving properly, and as Anne Marie
Speaker 1: Moyez explains, they also called in the prominent fire expert
Speaker 1: John Lentini. He disputed all of the prosecution's evidence and
Speaker 1: their interpretation of the evidence, but at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, it was his word against multiple experts on
Speaker 1: the prosecution side, and the prosecution did a pretty good
Speaker 1: job of characterizing Lentini as some sort of hired gun
Speaker 1: that the defense had paid. It wasn't a fair characterization,
Speaker 1: but it was a success. They were successful in portraying
Speaker 1: him that way. Over a month later, on November eight,
Speaker 1: Deb Nichols was convicted of three counts of first degree murder.
Speaker 1: She was sentenced to three consecutive life terms in prison.
Speaker 1: Deb has passed her time in prison trying to come
Speaker 1: to terms with what has happened in her life. I
Speaker 1: tried to do the things that I know will help,
Speaker 1: like journaling and singing and working out and going to
Speaker 1: church at Red Rocks, got behind bars, and keeping my
Speaker 1: heart open so that I can feel that pure love
Speaker 1: with my children, and fighting to clear arm Aimes because
Speaker 1: we had nothing to do with that fire in. Kathleen
Speaker 1: and Marie and the Corey Wise Innocence Project joined experienced
Speaker 1: criminal defense lawyer Janine McCabe in taking on Deb's case.
Speaker 1: So the main thing that we've done is brought on
Speaker 1: new leading experts and fire science to explain the changes
Speaker 1: in fire science that have taken place since the time
Speaker 1: of trial. And not only that, in the time since
Speaker 1: the trial happened, the state's expert, John Dihan has been discredited.
Speaker 1: He for many years was considered one of the leading
Speaker 1: experts and fire science in this country. But what we
Speaker 1: know now is that he acted unethically in other cases,
Speaker 1: and in fact, the American Association of Forensic Science voted
Speaker 1: to expel him from membership because of that unethical conduct.
Speaker 1: Don who passed away in you, continued to stand by
Speaker 1: his testimony. This is him speaking in nineteen about the case.
Speaker 1: I've read sammon Um, the data and the findings a
Speaker 1: number of times over the years, and U I UH
Speaker 1: still hold to my conclusions expressed in the technicals A
Speaker 1: trial as well as UH Deborah Nichols that the fire
Speaker 1: was deliberately started in the living room of the residents. However,
Speaker 1: the science to Han was touting has also been discredited.
Speaker 1: The defenses trial expert John Lentini also maintains his trial
Speaker 1: testimony and emphasizes these changes in science. To this day.
Speaker 1: He defends Deborah's innocence. It's not up to Timothey or
Speaker 1: Deborah to prove what caused that fire. What we have
Speaker 1: learned about the behavior of fire since the Nickels fire
Speaker 1: um is that the patterns that we read after a
Speaker 1: big fire like the are not reliable evidence. We can
Speaker 1: now say definitively that the samples that were taken from
Speaker 1: the Nichols living room show that they were just the
Speaker 1: natural byproduct of the fire, that they did not come
Speaker 1: from an ignitable liquid. So there's absolutely no evidence anymore
Speaker 1: that there was an ignitable liquid president at the fire scene,
Speaker 1: and that new science just exposes the prosecution's case for
Speaker 1: what it is, which is just a house of cars
Speaker 1: that just doesn't stand up under any sort of inspection.
Speaker 1: The jailhouse informant, Hiram Church, has also been discredited. We
Speaker 1: see that in cases of wrongful convictions that sometimes when
Speaker 1: these jailhouse informants are used, what we find out about
Speaker 1: their history is that they miraculously have heard confessions in
Speaker 1: a number of other high profile murder cases, and that
Speaker 1: was true of Mr Church. The Corey Wise Innocence Project
Speaker 1: submitted a motion for a new hearing to the courts
Speaker 1: in October of If accepted, there will be an evidentiary
Speaker 1: hearing where Deb can present this evidence to the court.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, she tries to keep healthy and stays
Speaker 1: in touch with the family she has left. Although Deb
Speaker 1: and Tim are divorced, they've remained friends and write letters
Speaker 1: to each other in prison. UM, we're both just trying
Speaker 1: to grieve and heal and get our names cleared and
Speaker 1: get the truth out and take it day by day.
Speaker 1: At this point, it's hard to talk about trauma. It's
Speaker 1: hard to talk about losing my babies. But I was
Speaker 1: hoping that people, especially women that get wrongly convicted, UM,
Speaker 1: can find some type of strength to get through it
Speaker 1: and keep fighting. Deb thinks back to night of the fire,
Speaker 1: often remembering her kids rumbunctious energy at bedtime. Now she
Speaker 1: thinks of that night in a new way. I'm so
Speaker 1: glad that I got to put him back to bed
Speaker 1: four or five times, because I didn't realize that would
Speaker 1: be the last time I got to kiss him good night.
Speaker 1: And I'm really really grateful I got a bunch of
Speaker 1: her kissers and them that night. M If you want
Speaker 1: to help Deb and the Corey Wise Innocence Project, go
Speaker 1: to the links in our bio Next time, Unwrongful Conviction
Speaker 1: with Maggie Freeling Ashley Jordan's. He was about to say
Speaker 1: he did it just so I can go home and
Speaker 1: won't go to jail, and I looked at him and
Speaker 1: I grabbed his hand and I said no, you're not.
Speaker 1: You will not lie for these people because we didn't
Speaker 1: do anything wrong. Thanks for listening to Wrongful Conviction with
Speaker 1: Maggie Freeling. Please support your local innocence organizations and go
Speaker 1: to the links in our bio to see how you
Speaker 1: can help. I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason
Speaker 1: Flom and Kevin Wurtis, as well as our senior producer,
Speaker 1: Annie Chelsea, producer Lila Robinson, and story editor Sonja Paul.
Speaker 1: The show is edited and mixed by Annie Chelsea, with
Speaker 1: additional production by Jeff Cleburne and Connor Hall. The music
Speaker 1: in this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer
Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. The news clips heard in this episode we're
Speaker 1: reported by Laura Martin at kk TV. Be sure to
Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as
Speaker 1: well as at Lava for Good. On all three platforms,
Speaker 1: you can also follow me on both Instagram and Twitter
Speaker 1: at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a
Speaker 1: production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal
Speaker 1: Company Number one