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Speaker 1: The evening of March sixth, two thousand and three, was

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Speaker 1: a typical Thursday for the Nichols family. That night, Deborah

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Speaker 1: Nichols put her three energetic kids to bed. After her

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Speaker 1: husband Tim got home, she left the house to interview

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Speaker 1: an employee for their karaoke business. When she returned home,

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Speaker 1: her world had been turned upside down that night.

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Speaker 2: I went from just needing to hire someone to fill

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Speaker 2: a shift to losing my whole little family.

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Speaker 1: It was a mother's worst nightmare. And when it was over,

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Speaker 1: all three of Deb's children had died in a terrible accident.

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Speaker 1: She was so stricken with grief that she couldn't bring

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Speaker 1: herself to attend their funeral.

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Speaker 2: I was trying to get ready to go to the

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Speaker 2: funeral and my body was breaking down and I was

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Speaker 2: shaking so bad, and I just had to sit down

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Speaker 2: and give in and surrender. I can't go. I can't

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Speaker 2: do it. I couldn't imagine seeing three, three caskets. It

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Speaker 2: was too much. It was too much. My name is

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Speaker 2: Deb Nichols. I'm currently serving three life sentences at Denver

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Speaker 2: Women's Correctional.

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Speaker 1: Facility from LoVa for Good. This is wrongful conviction with

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Speaker 1: Maggie Freeling today dead. Nichols Deborah Nichols was born May fourth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven, born Michigan. She grew up in a large,

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Speaker 1: blended family.

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Speaker 2: Having seven brothers and sisters was a blast. We had

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Speaker 2: a great childhood. Northern Michigan has beautiful weather. It's like

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Speaker 2: the perfect four seasons, so we as children took full

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Speaker 2: rain with all of it and did a lot of

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Speaker 2: skating and skiing and swimming, or just going down to

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Speaker 2: the end of the street to the bay and playing

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Speaker 2: in the water all day, all summer long. We had

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Speaker 2: so much fun.

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Speaker 1: So can you tell listeners about Zebra? What's she like?

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Speaker 1: What was she like growing up?

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Speaker 3: Well, as you probably gathered talking to her, she's a

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Speaker 3: pretty strong girl.

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Speaker 1: This is Deb's father, Doug bamb Gardner.

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Speaker 3: Pretty strong will and has no problems doing things her

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Speaker 3: way and trying to tat what she's headed for. She

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Speaker 3: was always that way all of her life.

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Speaker 1: Her family later moved to Colorado, but for college, Deb

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Speaker 1: carved her own path and moved out to California. After

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Speaker 1: studying at San Diego for a year, Deb left the

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Speaker 1: West Coast and joined her family in Colorado. When Deb

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Speaker 1: was twenty four, she gave birth to her first child,

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Speaker 1: a son. They called him JJ.

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Speaker 2: JJ's nickname was Peanut, and he was just absolutely beautiful,

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Speaker 2: like he was my little buddy, my little man, and

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Speaker 2: we did everything together.

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Speaker 1: Deb went on to have a second son, Spencer, but tragically,

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Speaker 1: when he was three months old, Spencer passed away from

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Speaker 1: sudden infant death syndrome, also known as sid's. Despite her loss,

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Speaker 1: Deb continued to try and be the best mom she

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Speaker 1: could JJ. By nineteen ninety three, she was living in

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Speaker 1: a suburb of Colorado Springs, working two jobs and going

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Speaker 1: to school. One night, she went out to a local

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Speaker 1: bar to let loose and indulge in one of her passions,

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Speaker 1: singing karaoke. What is your karaoke song? Do you have

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Speaker 1: a go to?

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Speaker 2: I really liked What's Up with four Non Blonde?

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Speaker 1: I do love that song.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a good one.

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Speaker 1: When Deb walked in, a man was already at the mic.

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Speaker 1: She recognized the song right away.

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Speaker 2: You Are My Shining Star, which is one of my

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Speaker 2: favorite songs in like eighth grade. And he was really

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Speaker 2: cute and he was new and I had never seen

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Speaker 2: him before, and I was like, hey, that's one of

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Speaker 2: my favorite songs, you know, come sit by Me.

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Speaker 1: His name was Tim Nichols, and they hit it off.

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Speaker 2: We talked all night long and we basically never left

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Speaker 2: each other's side after that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, described him to me, what what does he like?

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Speaker 2: Tim is a lot of powerhouse and a little guy.

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Speaker 2: He's like five nine. He had integrity, which is something

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Speaker 2: that was so hard to find. It such a rare

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Speaker 2: quality nowadays. And because he's just such a good guy

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Speaker 2: through the right thing no matter what. And I that

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Speaker 2: was the kind of guy I wanted to be with forever.

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Speaker 1: Tim and Deb were best friends, and Tim loved JJ

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Speaker 1: like his own son.

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Speaker 2: Tim and JJ were just like so bonded that Tim

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Speaker 2: adopted JJ and we got married and started our family.

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Speaker 2: I have to say it, I loved getting married. I

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Speaker 2: loved being married. It really does take your relationship to

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Speaker 2: a different level.

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Speaker 1: Soon after that, in nineteen ninety seven, their daughter Sophia

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Speaker 1: was born.

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Speaker 2: She was absolutely amazing. She loved people to be happy,

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Speaker 2: she was always smiling, She was she was the essence

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Speaker 2: of joy.

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Speaker 1: Two years later, their second daughter, Sierra came. They nicknamed

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Speaker 1: her Rara.

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Speaker 2: That little girl was just so calming and so peaceful.

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Speaker 2: And she would just like go around the room and

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Speaker 2: check everything out. She was just so little and delicate

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Speaker 2: and beautiful. Jg was my passion, Sophia was my joy,

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Speaker 2: and ra Ra was my peace. They were my absolute world.

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Speaker 2: I was so blessed.

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Speaker 1: The family was thriving. Deb was working on getting her

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Speaker 1: real estate license. They had started a construction business and

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Speaker 1: even bought a house. They were busy, but they found

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Speaker 1: time for each other too.

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Speaker 2: You know, once I have was done nursing, we started

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Speaker 2: going out, you know, on date nights, and we went

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Speaker 2: to a karaoke bar, and like it was so fun,

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Speaker 2: like soul food.

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Speaker 1: Deb and Tim decided to start a side business together,

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Speaker 1: doing something they loved, the thing that had brought them together,

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Speaker 1: a karaoke business.

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Speaker 2: We took the plunge and started our own and got

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Speaker 2: really good equipment and you know, I got all those

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Speaker 2: songs like the Gries duets and stuff. It was just

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Speaker 2: really fun. It was for pure enjoyment, just go be

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Speaker 2: able to let loose and enjoy yourself.

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Speaker 1: Deb, Tim and their family had everything going for.

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Speaker 2: Them, living the American dream basically.

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Speaker 1: But that dream soon came to a crashing halt. On

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Speaker 1: the evening of March sixth, two thousand and three, Deb

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Speaker 1: was home with her three children, getting them ready for bed.

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Speaker 2: JJ was going to a birthday party on Friday, which

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Speaker 2: this lady was taking ten little twelve year old skiing.

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Speaker 2: So I got a bunch of you know, chips and

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Speaker 2: stuff and bought the girls some sparkly tattoos, old temporary tattoos,

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Speaker 2: because you can't get one kid's stuff without the other

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Speaker 2: kids getting stuff too.

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Speaker 1: She says. The kids were really hyper that night.

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Speaker 2: I had to put them back to bed like three

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Speaker 2: or four times, because you know, the girls were excited

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Speaker 2: about these sparkly tattoos, and JJ was excited about his

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Speaker 2: birthday party excursion.

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Speaker 1: The next day, the kids finally fell asleep, which gave

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Speaker 1: Deb time to catch up on some chores around the house.

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Speaker 1: Tim got home from work around eleven that night, and

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Speaker 1: he was tired.

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Speaker 2: I knew he'd worked really hard all week, and I

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Speaker 2: told Tim, you know, I'd cleaned the house, I lick

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Speaker 2: candles for the ambiance, and I literally had dinner in

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Speaker 2: the oven and his favorite beer in the freezers so

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Speaker 2: he could just have a beer in dinner.

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Speaker 1: Deb had an appointment to go meet a new karaoke

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Speaker 1: jockey for their business.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, you know, I have to go

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Speaker 2: to this kJ interview. Make sure you blow up the

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Speaker 2: candles and I left.

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Speaker 1: After the interview, DEB hung around the bar like she

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Speaker 1: usually did. She had a few drinks and sang some karaoke, and.

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Speaker 2: Because I had a drink or two, I didn't want

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Speaker 2: to drive.

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Speaker 1: So when the bar was closing around two am, DEB

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Speaker 1: asked one of her employees, Carl, for a ride home.

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Speaker 1: Everything was business as usual until they turned onto deb Street.

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Speaker 2: You could see the emergency lights as we were coming

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Speaker 2: up the street, and the closer we got to my street,

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Speaker 2: the more emergency vehicles that we could see. And so

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Speaker 2: I started a panic and I just asked Carl to

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Speaker 2: stop the car, and I got out of the car

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Speaker 2: and started running around the corner and saw it was

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Speaker 2: my house and it was on fire. And the closer

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Speaker 2: I got, you know, there's probably two hundred people in

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Speaker 2: front of my house. And I kept hearing everyone go,

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Speaker 2: you know, that's her, that's the mom, and you know,

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Speaker 2: the panic was setting in. I was literally terrified, and

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Speaker 2: my brain was like, I just I needed to get

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Speaker 2: to the back and make sure the kids are okay,

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Speaker 2: And and these cops and these firemen were like pushing

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Speaker 2: me back, say, and it was almost like they were

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Speaker 2: wrestling me to the ground because I'm like, you know,

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Speaker 2: I need to go see if my children are okay.

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Speaker 2: I need to get back to the house.

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Speaker 1: Officials told her she needed to go to the hospital,

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Speaker 1: but they weren't telling her what was going on.

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Speaker 2: It looked really bad. But if the only way I

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Speaker 2: could get information was to go to the hospital, it

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Speaker 2: was like fine, And so I went. And the whole

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Speaker 2: ride to the hospital, like the policeman didn't tell me anything.

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Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company.

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Speaker 1: AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and to making

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Speaker 1: a positive difference in the lives of its employees and

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Speaker 1: in the communities where they work and live. In light

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Speaker 1: of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and

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Speaker 1: in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform,

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Speaker 1: the AIG pro Bono Program provides free legal services and

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Speaker 1: other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. When deb got

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Speaker 1: to the hospital, she was taken to a room to

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Speaker 1: wait for the doctor to come and talk with her.

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Speaker 2: And he walked in and she said, JJS is dead.

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Speaker 2: Good night, remember saying dead. It no no one anything

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Speaker 2: about dead. And then he said sar May the youngest.

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Speaker 2: She died off, and.

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Speaker 4: I felt my mind leave my body and the adrenaline

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Speaker 4: and my body took over, and I.

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Speaker 5: Ran out of the hospital and my only thought was

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Speaker 5: I just.

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Speaker 2: Need to go.

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Speaker 5: We'll go, I mean walk to the Pacific Ocean and

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Speaker 5: that's it doesn't make any sense that I now look

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Speaker 5: back and like that was the.

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Speaker 2: Adrenaline and the panic and where I always feel the safest,

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Speaker 2: on the beach by the water.

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Speaker 1: It turns out Sophia was still alive, but she didn't

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Speaker 1: have long to live.

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Speaker 2: And I went back in the hospital and they led

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Speaker 2: me to Sophia's room and she was had tubes everywhere.

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Speaker 2: There was a little clear spot on her little chest,

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Speaker 2: and I was able to put my head on her

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Speaker 2: chest and put my ear to her heart, and I

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Speaker 2: could hear her heart beating, and it was beating so fast.

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Speaker 1: Tim was also in critical condition. In the process of

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Speaker 1: trying to save him, the doctors had taken Tim's wedding

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Speaker 1: ring off. Deb asked if she could keep it, and

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Speaker 1: then she was confronted with more agony.

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Speaker 2: And then they asked me to say goodbye to Sierra,

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Speaker 2: me my baby girl that we called raw Rah. And

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Speaker 2: I got told her and say goodbye, and she didn't

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Speaker 2: look hurt or burned or anything. She just looked like

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Speaker 2: she was sleeping. Raba was a real big daddy's girl,

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Speaker 2: and she loved her daddy so much. And I looked

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Speaker 2: at the wedding ring in my hand as Kim's, and

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Speaker 2: I decided to put that on her so this could

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Speaker 2: be buried with it.

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Speaker 1: Sierra and JJ had both died of smoke inhalation. Sophia

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Speaker 1: was still hanging on for dear life, and Tim had

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Speaker 1: been transferred to a burn unit in Denver, and Dev's

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Speaker 1: family and friends were starting to arrive at the hospital.

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Speaker 2: They all wanted to help me, but there was no

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Speaker 2: helping me. I was devastated. I was terrified, this panicked,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't want anyone to touch me. I was

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Speaker 2: just so sick of everyone trying to hug me, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, I have to figure this out.

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Speaker 1: By morning, DEB was informed that Sophia had also died.

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Speaker 2: And I put my wedding ring on Sophia's little finger,

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Speaker 2: and I got to say goodbye to Sophia, and then

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Speaker 2: I went right to the hospital up in Denver and

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Speaker 2: was with Tim and my family and we just we

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Speaker 2: sat vigil with Tim.

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Speaker 1: Tim's injuries were serious, but eventually he was able to

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Speaker 1: leave the hospital. With no home to go back to,

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Speaker 1: the two of them lived out of a motel room.

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Speaker 1: Deb's father and stepmother stayed close to help. Tim was

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Speaker 1: still recovering from his injuries, and Doug took charge of

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Speaker 1: his care, tending to his burns and changing his bandages.

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Speaker 3: I was the only one that could take care of

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Speaker 3: the burns without pulkit and getting sick. So anyway, that

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Speaker 3: was my job for the rest of the time we

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Speaker 3: were there.

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Speaker 1: But Doug was also having a hard time. His daughter

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Speaker 1: had lost her children and he had lost his grandchildren.

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Speaker 3: Can I show you a picture of the kids? Have

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Speaker 3: you ever seen one?

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Speaker 2: Show me?

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Speaker 6: I got to reach it up there, I see. And anyway,

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Speaker 6: this was the last picture of them. This was taken

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Speaker 6: just before they all died.

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Speaker 1: When was that Christmas?

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Speaker 3: Just after? Yeah, in March, I guess, but they had

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Speaker 3: little halos on even.

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Speaker 2: I went from just needing to hire someone to fill

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Speaker 2: a shift to losing my whole little family.

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Speaker 1: Deb and Tim had lost their children, their home, and

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Speaker 1: everything they owned, and as they struggled with their grief,

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Speaker 1: their marriage was deteriorating.

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Speaker 2: We weren't doing well at all. Actually, our souls were broken.

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Speaker 2: We weren't He wasn't the same man, I wasn't the

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Speaker 2: same woman. We were fighting constantly in it was horrible.

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Speaker 2: We were in different places with the grieving, you know,

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Speaker 2: like he would want to remember the kids and I

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Speaker 2: would be like in denial, and we just couldn't get

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Speaker 2: on the same page. And we were actually doing more

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Speaker 2: damage to each other than we were helping. None of

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Speaker 2: any of it made any sense. I was not thinking clearly.

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Speaker 2: I literally would buy boxes of wine and put them

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Speaker 2: in my windowsill, and when I'd wake up in the morning,

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Speaker 2: I'd start drinking whites in and I'd drink it all day.

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Speaker 3: She ended up coming home here with us, and she

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Speaker 3: was still basically in trauma. I mean we're talking months

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Speaker 3: after the fire, and you know, me and her were

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Speaker 3: going down to her bedroom till she cried herself asleep.

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Speaker 1: And it was about to get a lot worse because

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Speaker 1: Tim was the sole survivor from inside the house. Fire,

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Speaker 1: police were suspicious. One day, the police called him into

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Speaker 1: the station, saying they needed him to pick up some

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Speaker 1: property from the fire, but Deb says it was a

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Speaker 1: ruse to get her alone.

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Speaker 2: As soon as he left, the doorbell rang and it

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Speaker 2: was Derek Graham and another detective and they were like,

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Speaker 2: you know, oh, we need to talk to you. We

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Speaker 2: think your husband did this. And I remember telling them

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Speaker 2: absolutely not. They didn't know what they were talking about.

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Speaker 2: My husband loved his children more than his own life.

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Speaker 2: They said, well, well, we have evidence. I said, no,

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Speaker 2: you don't, and if you do, it's wrong. And then

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Speaker 2: I asked them to leave, and I thought that would

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Speaker 2: be the end of it, but it wasn't.

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Speaker 1: Detective Graham was also scrutinizing Deb's behavior, particularly at the hospital.

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Speaker 2: And then he put like his notes that I wasn't

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Speaker 2: crying properly or whatever. And I'm thinking, you didn't think

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Speaker 2: I was crying properly. I couldn't even remember to breathe

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Speaker 2: or close my mouth, and you're judging me like that.

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Speaker 1: But the way Detective Graham saw it, these two parents

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00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,360
Speaker 1: had something to do with the deaths of their children.

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Speaker 1: After a two year investigation, on July twenty first, two

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00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,879
Speaker 1: thousand and five, the grand jury indicted Tim Nichols for

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Speaker 1: the murders of eleven year old Jj, five year old Sophia,

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Speaker 1: and three year old Sierra. Deb was also indicted that

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Speaker 1: day for minor counts from before the fire, including drug use,

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00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 1: but more than two years later, in November two thousand

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Speaker 1: and seven, she too was indicted for the murders of

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Speaker 1: their children. Deb and Tim were tried separately. Tim's trial

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Speaker 1: came first before Deb's trial even began. He was convicted

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00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:32,399
Speaker 1: of three counts of first degree murder. Deb's trial started

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00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 1: on October fourteenth, two thousand and eight. The prosecutors, Assistant

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Speaker 1: district attorneys Amy Mulaney and David Lindsay, presented the theory

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Speaker 1: that Deb had developed an addiction to methamphetamine and needed

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Speaker 1: money for drug related debts, so she conspired with Tim

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Speaker 1: to burn down their house and family for the insurance money.

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Speaker 1: They said that meth users would do anything to get

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Speaker 1: more meth.

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Speaker 7: And according to the prosecution, that would include killing their

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Speaker 7: three children to get more methamphetamine, and there was very

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00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 7: little evidence to support that at all, but that was

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Speaker 7: their theory.

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Speaker 1: This is Kathleen Lord. She's a staff attorney at the

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Speaker 1: Cory Wise Innocence Project at Colorado Law, Kathleen says that

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Speaker 1: while Deb did do drugs occasionally.

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Speaker 7: There's not evidence that she was a meth addict. She

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Speaker 7: was first turned on to meth by one of the

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Speaker 7: state's witnesses as a way to lose weight, and there

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Speaker 7: was a lot of speculation on the prosecution's part.

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Speaker 1: The state had one major problem with its case. Deb

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Speaker 1: wasn't home the night of the fire, so the state

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Speaker 1: argued she had to have an accomplice. They said she

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Speaker 1: planned it with Tim, who had already been convicted.

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Speaker 8: There's something that we're uncomfortable with, and I think that

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00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 8: we're uncomfortable with the fact that there was a father

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00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 8: at home with his children and he escaped the fire

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Speaker 8: and his children didn't.

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Speaker 1: Anne Marie Moyas is the director of the Corey Wise

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Speaker 1: Innocence Project. She says that right from the beginning, the

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Speaker 1: police focused on Deb and Tamas suspects.

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Speaker 8: There's a real impulse to blame him and to embrace

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00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,679
Speaker 8: narratives that put him at fault for what happened, and

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Speaker 8: so I think that was the kernel that started all

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Speaker 8: of this, and then the confirmation bias sets in, and

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Speaker 8: then every piece of evidence is seen through this lend

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Speaker 8: of that expectation.

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Speaker 1: Here's how the state's case began.

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Speaker 8: Somewhat early in the investigation, they led an arson dog

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Speaker 8: through the fire scene and the dog was trained to

350
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Speaker 8: alert to the possible presence of an ignitable liquid, and

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Speaker 8: the dog did alert at multiple locations in the living room,

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Speaker 8: in the stairway at the house. They said, okay, well

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Speaker 8: we found xilenes, and xilenes are a chemical compound in

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Speaker 8: a nightable liquids.

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Speaker 1: Xilens are also commonly detected when furniture and other household

356
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,479
Speaker 1: items burn in a fire. Yet, the prosecution argued that

357
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,120
Speaker 1: the presence of xilenes showed that the fire was deliberately

358
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Speaker 1: set using an ignitable liquid.

359
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 8: They had an expert whose name is John Dehan, and

360
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Speaker 8: he testified that he was able to determine that only

361
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Speaker 8: a fire set at multiple locations simultaneous in the living

362
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 8: room could have grown large enough to engulf the entire room.

363
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 8: So it was beyond dispute that the living room did

364
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 8: go to flashover, meaning that the entire room was engulfed

365
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 8: in flames. But his theory was that only a deliberately

366
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 8: set fire could have produced that result.

367
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Speaker 1: And to further bolster this theory, the state brought in

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Speaker 1: a jailhouse snitch. When Tim was in jail, he was

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Speaker 1: placed next to a notorious informant named Hiram Church.

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Speaker 8: With in a day or two of being in custody.

371
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Speaker 8: Mister Church claimed to have heard Tim confess to him,

372
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Speaker 8: and then they were able to use the jailhouse snitch

373
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 8: to tie it together because the jail house snitch said

374
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Speaker 8: that Tim had admitted to him to using an ignitable

375
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Speaker 8: liquid called goof off to start the fire, and xilenes

376
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 8: are a primary ingredient of goof off.

377
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 1: The state said that Tim put goof off, a household

378
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 1: cleaning product all over the furniture and had the kids

379
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: sit on it that evening. Then when the fire ignited,

380
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 1: the children would already have the flammable substance on them them.

381
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 8: And what was critical is that mister Church, the jail

382
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 8: house informant, said not only that Tim had confessed, but

383
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 8: that he had implicated Deb in the crime.

384
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Speaker 1: The state also criticized Deb's behavior following her children's deaths.

385
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: They called in an insurance adjuster to testify that when

386
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: she showed up at their office. She had on a

387
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: white track suit with freshly manicured nails, implying that she

388
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: was dressed inappropriately for a bereft mother. The state relentlessly

389
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 1: picked apart her grieving process.

390
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 2: I get it because I didn't know how to do

391
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 2: it either.

392
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 5: I don't know.

393
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Speaker 2: Things like that come in waves like you just can't

394
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 2: you sob uncontrollably, and then you can't think for a

395
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 2: sob or do anything for a while, and then it'll

396
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 2: hit you and I don't know, it's like a cycle

397
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 2: of denial and devastation.

398
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Speaker 1: They also brought up the fact that deb didn't attend

399
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,360
Speaker 1: her children's funeral. How come you didn't attend the funeral.

400
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: I had lost my second son, Spencer, when he was

401
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 2: three months old, and I had to have a funeral.

402
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 2: It's a little tiny casket and I barely made it

403
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 2: through that, and I just I was trying to get

404
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 2: ready to go to the funeral, and my body was

405
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 2: breaking down and I was shaking so bad. And you know,

406
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 2: my daughters loved to me get ready in the morning,

407
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 2: and they would be like, you know, mom, we went pretties,

408
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,880
Speaker 2: and I was trying to get ready for the funeral,

409
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 2: but I just had to sit down and give in

410
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 2: and surrender. I can't go. I can't do it. I

411
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 2: didn't want to go to the funeral and have it

412
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 2: be about me breaking down instead of people getting to

413
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 2: say goodbye to my beautiful children. So I went and

414
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 2: I sat out in the car until after the funeral,

415
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 2: and then I went and I thank people for coming.

416
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 2: I couldn't. I just I couldn't imagine seeing three, three caskets.

417
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 2: It was too much. It was too much.

418
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: Deb's defense attorneys were Deputy Public Defender Cindy Jones and

419
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Schwartz. They called multiple witnesses to refute the prosecution's

420
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: idea that deb wasn't grieving properly, and as Anne Marie

421
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: Moyas explains, they also called in the prominent fire expert

422
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: John Lntini.

423
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 8: He disputed all of the prosecution's evidence and their interpretation

424
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 8: of the evidence, but at the end of the day,

425
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 8: it was his against multiple experts on the prosecution side,

426
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 8: and the prosecution did a pretty good job of characterizing

427
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 8: Lentini as some sort of hired gun that the defense

428
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 8: had paid. It wasn't a fair characterization, but it was

429
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 8: a success. They were successful in portraying him that way.

430
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: Over a month later, on November twenty fourth, two thousand

431
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: and eight, Deb Nichols was convicted of three counts a

432
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: first degree murder. She was sentenced to three consecutive life

433
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: terms in prison. Deb has passed her time in prison

434
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: trying to come to terms with what has happened in

435
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: her life.

436
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: I try to do the things that I know will help,

437
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 2: like journaling and singing, and working out, and going to

438
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 2: church at Red Rocks God behind bars, and keeping my

439
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 2: heart open so that I can feel that pure love

440
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: with my children, and fighting to clear our aims because

441
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 2: we had nothing to do with that fire.

442
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty, Kathleen Ann Marie and the Corey Wise

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Speaker 1: Innocence Project joined experienced criminal defense lawyer Janine McCabe in

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Speaker 1: taking on Deb's case.

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Speaker 8: So the main thing that we've done is brought on

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Speaker 8: new leading experts in fire science to explain the changes

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Speaker 8: in fire science that have taken place since the time

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Speaker 8: of trial.

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Speaker 1: And not only that, in the time since the trial happened,

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Speaker 1: the state's expert, John Dehn, has been discredited.

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Speaker 8: He for many years was considered one of the leading

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Speaker 8: experts in fire science in this country. But what we

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Speaker 8: know now is that he acted unethically in other cases,

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Speaker 8: and in fact, the American Association of Forensic Science voted

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Speaker 8: to expel him from membership because of that unethical conduct.

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Speaker 1: Dehn, who passed away in twenty twenty two to continued

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Speaker 1: to stand by his testimony. This is him speaking in

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen about the case.

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Speaker 9: I've read, examine the data and the findings a number

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Speaker 9: of times over the years, and I still hold my

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Speaker 9: conclusions expressed in the Tim Nichols trial as well as

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Speaker 9: Deborah Nichols, that fire was deliberately started in the living

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Speaker 9: room of the residents.

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Speaker 1: However, the science to Han was touting has also been discredited.

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Speaker 1: The defensive trial expert John Lntini also maintains his trial

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Speaker 1: testimony and emphasizes these changes in science. To this day,

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Speaker 1: he defends Debra's innocence.

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Speaker 10: It's not up to Timothy or Deborah to prove what

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Speaker 10: caused that fire. What we have learned about the behavior

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Speaker 10: of fire since the Nickels fire is that the patterns

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Speaker 10: that we read after a big fire like the are

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Speaker 10: not reliable evidence.

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Speaker 8: We can now say definitively that the samples that were

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Speaker 8: taken from the Nichols living room show that they were

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Speaker 8: just the natural byproduct of the fire, that they did

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Speaker 8: not come from an ignitable liquid. So there's absolutely no

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Speaker 8: evidence anymore that there was an ignitable liquid present at

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Speaker 8: the fire scene, and that new science just exposes the

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Speaker 8: prosecution's case for what it is, which is just a

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Speaker 8: house of cards that just doesn't stand up under any

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Speaker 8: sort of inspection.

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Speaker 1: The jailhouse informant, Hiram Church, has also been discredited.

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Speaker 8: We see that in cases of wrongful convictions that sometimes

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Speaker 8: when these jailhouse informants are used, what we find out

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Speaker 8: about their history is that they miraculously have heard confessions

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Speaker 8: in a number of other high profile murder cases, and

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Speaker 8: that was true of mister Church.

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Speaker 1: The Corey Wise Innocence Project submitted a motion for a

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Speaker 1: new hearing to the courts in October of twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 1: If accepted, there will be an evidentiary hearing where Deb

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Speaker 1: can present this evidence to the court. In the meantime,

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Speaker 1: she tries to keep healthy and stays in touch with

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Speaker 1: the family she has left. Although Deb and Tim are divorced,

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Speaker 1: they've remained friends and write letters to each other in prison.

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Speaker 2: We're both just trying to grieve and heal and get

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Speaker 2: our names cleared and get the truth out and take

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Speaker 2: it day by day. At this point, it's hard to

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Speaker 2: talk about trauma. It's hard to talk about losing my babies.

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Speaker 2: But I was just hoping that people, especially women that

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Speaker 2: get wrongly convicted, can find some type of strength, seet

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Speaker 2: through it, and keep fighting.

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Speaker 1: Deb thinks back to the night of the fire, often

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Speaker 1: remembering her kid's rambunctious energy at bedtime. Now she thinks

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Speaker 1: of that night in a new way.

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad that I got to put him back

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Speaker 2: to bed four or five times, because I didn't realize

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Speaker 2: that would be the last time I got to kiss

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Speaker 2: him good night. And I'm really really grateful I got

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Speaker 2: a bunch as her kisses.

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Speaker 10: In that night.

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Speaker 1: If you want to help Deb and the Corey Wise

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Speaker 1: Innocence Project, go to the links in our bio. Next time,

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Speaker 1: un Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling Ashley Jordan.

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Speaker 2: He was about to say he did it just so

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Speaker 2: I can go home and won't go to jail, and

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Speaker 2: I looked at him and I grabbed his hand and

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Speaker 2: I said, no, you're not you will not lie for

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Speaker 2: these people. That's because we didn't do anything wrong.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. Please

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00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: support your local innocence organizations and go to the links

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00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: in our bio to see how you can help. I'd

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00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: like to thank our executive producers Jason Flamm and Kevin Wurtis,

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00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: as well as our senior producer, Annie Chelsea, producer Lyla Robinson,

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00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: and story editor Sonia Paul. The show is edited and

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00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: mixed by Annie Chelsea, with additional production by Jeff Cliburn

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00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 1: and Connor Hall. The music in this production is by

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00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. The news clips

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Speaker 1: heard in this episode were reported by Laura Martin at KKTV.

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Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

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00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at

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Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On

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Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both

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Speaker 1: Instagram and Twitter at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with Maggie

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00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 1: Freeling is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in

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00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one