Speaker 1: Hey, fam I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the
Speaker 1: Red Table Pop podcast, all your favorite episodes from the
Speaker 1: Facebook watch show in audio produced by Westbrook Audio and
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review
Speaker 1: on Apple podcasts. On this Red Table talk how to
Speaker 1: spot a narcissist in your life. Everyone is getting hurt
Speaker 1: by this. I've never seen anything like this. The biggest
Speaker 1: warning signs these are the people willing to manipulate, to exploit,
Speaker 1: to lie, to cheat, to steal. I know some people
Speaker 1: like that. The worst thing you can do to a
Speaker 1: narcissist has forgive them. They're gonna take your forgiveness and
Speaker 1: turn it into a weapon. You're in a relationship with
Speaker 1: a malignant narcissist, how the hell do you get out?
Speaker 1: It can be dangerous. He just blew my mind with that.
Speaker 1: So today we're doing a show on narcissisms. It's really
Speaker 1: affecting people in a like a really strong way. I
Speaker 1: definitely feel like I have narcissistic traits, definitely. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I'm a clinical narcissist because there is a difference.
Speaker 1: I mean, the industry I'm in, who's not a narcissist
Speaker 1: in it. We cultivate narcissism. In my industry, everything is
Speaker 1: about me, me, me, me me. All right, well let's
Speaker 1: go talk to our narcissist expert. So this is one
Speaker 1: of our most requested topics. Yeah, this narcissistic epidemic is
Speaker 1: serious business for me. I'm just trying to in my
Speaker 1: journey as of late, just trying to identify any traits
Speaker 1: of narcissism within myself, which I know exists. I mean,
Speaker 1: one of the most narcissistic industry would agree with that.
Speaker 1: And then on top of it, now that we have
Speaker 1: social social media, I think that just breeds narcis because
Speaker 1: I still find it a little strange to be constantly
Speaker 1: taking pictures of yourself and posting like go everywhere you go. Well,
Speaker 1: I know for you, Willo, You've always had a very
Speaker 1: interesting relationship with social media because people would always be
Speaker 1: asking me like post selfiees, post selfies, and that would
Speaker 1: make me so like, what's going Like that's us even
Speaker 1: in your instead of your life. You do everything you
Speaker 1: can to get attention off of you. Yeah, like everything,
Speaker 1: but are you drawing? Honestly, yeah, I think it's the
Speaker 1: coolest thing because you're so opposite of most young people
Speaker 1: your age. So today we have a beautiful woman that's
Speaker 1: coming to speak to us who's written many books on
Speaker 1: this subject, doctor Romany. She is a psychologist, professor, and
Speaker 1: a world renowned expert on narcissism. Welcome, Thank you. I've
Speaker 1: watched you talk about this. You're so passionate. I can
Speaker 1: tell that it is your life's work. Have people understand
Speaker 1: what narcissism is all about. Everyone is getting hurt by this.
Speaker 1: I never I've never seen anything like this. What is
Speaker 1: the definition of narcissism. A lot of people think it's
Speaker 1: somebody who's just into themselves. Yeah, that's what I thought.
Speaker 1: Could be anything, but it's it's actually almost the opposite
Speaker 1: of self love. I'd almost call itself hate. These are
Speaker 1: people who have no empathy for other people. They're really grandiose,
Speaker 1: so deeply entitled. They're arrogant. They can't deal with frustration,
Speaker 1: and when face was frustration, they become rageful. You can't
Speaker 1: win an argument with a narcissist, and I see that.
Speaker 1: I see that in people so much. They never want
Speaker 1: to feel wrong, so I always take it and I
Speaker 1: don't like that, so I just that that's one percent
Speaker 1: my thing, because I'm like, this is gonna be an argument.
Speaker 1: You're gonna not want to feel wrong, right, So I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna cut the middleman and just be like responsibility.
Speaker 1: I'm the person who takes all the blame. Right. Here's
Speaker 1: the thing. If you did it ten times in a
Speaker 1: row with a partner who had some of these narcissistic tendencies,
Speaker 1: they could easily crawl in there and take advantage of
Speaker 1: other things that you're going to look for with the
Speaker 1: narcissists are constantly seeking validation. Narcissists are very, very sensitive,
Speaker 1: hyper sensitive to the point of being paranoid, because when
Speaker 1: it comes down to the core, they're deeply insecure. So
Speaker 1: that's not self love right right. But because they're so insecure,
Speaker 1: they open up with, look how great I am. And
Speaker 1: that's why it sells so well in the entertainment industry
Speaker 1: because they can fake it till they make it. When
Speaker 1: I keep facing it. If you work in the entertainment industry,
Speaker 1: an account the narcissists, it's not possible. It's not possible. Time,
Speaker 1: it's it is not possible. It's like going to the
Speaker 1: beach and not seeing Sam like that. It's really harmful
Speaker 1: because it's one thing to fake it for a performance.
Speaker 1: It's quite another to be with a person who invalidates
Speaker 1: you all the time. Are there different levels to narcissism,
Speaker 1: So the classical form of narcissism is sort of what
Speaker 1: most people picture, that sort of grandiose Look how great
Speaker 1: I am, Look at my car, look at my dress.
Speaker 1: I'm all that right, So they sort of suck all
Speaker 1: the oxygen. We're often entertained by them. They're very charming,
Speaker 1: that's why people get drawn in. But the flip side
Speaker 1: of that of the narcissists, we miss what we call
Speaker 1: the covert narcissists. Those are the dark knights of the
Speaker 1: narcissistic world, because they come off as really victimy. The
Speaker 1: world never saw how great I was. You know, if
Speaker 1: the world knew how great I was, I'd be the
Speaker 1: next big thing. So they're very angry at the world.
Speaker 1: They're very sullen. They can often look depressed, so we
Speaker 1: miss them because they're not putting on the big show.
Speaker 1: We don't associate that. But they're angry, very angry. They're
Speaker 1: very angry. They can be very dangerous as it all
Speaker 1: goes off. Those are often covert narcissists. The Joker is
Speaker 1: a covert because Joker has a very covert narcissistic field. Exactly.
Speaker 1: That's because look at his whole life with nothing one exactly,
Speaker 1: nothing went his way, and then he said, I'm going
Speaker 1: to make you see. That's then we go on to
Speaker 1: the malignant narcissists, which to me is the most dangerous
Speaker 1: dark narcissists of all, because these are the people who
Speaker 1: not only can be quite grandiose and charming, but they're
Speaker 1: willing to manipulate, to exploit, to lie, to cheat, to steal,
Speaker 1: to throw one of the most They're dangerous and they
Speaker 1: are and to me, it's like the last stuff on
Speaker 1: the train before being a psychopath. Yeah, one last one though.
Speaker 1: What we call the noble narcissist. These are the people
Speaker 1: who do lots of good things, lots of charitable stuff,
Speaker 1: and donate lots of money, but the reason they do
Speaker 1: it is only to get validation. These are the people
Speaker 1: like I need my name on the building, lots of
Speaker 1: Instagram post hashtag rescue Saturday, or they look really good
Speaker 1: rescuing to it look good, it look so it's that.
Speaker 1: But what they are is there often they look like
Speaker 1: a savior to the community, but hind closed doors, they
Speaker 1: are cruel to their families, They're cruel to their partners,
Speaker 1: and everyone will say, you're so lucky to have that
Speaker 1: mother a father. They are saving the world, and you're thinking,
Speaker 1: oh my god, my life is a living nightmare. This
Speaker 1: is deep. Yeah, that's that's for real. What would be
Speaker 1: some of the traits? Okay, the real thing that this
Speaker 1: all spins on is that lack of empathy. Okay, just
Speaker 1: don't care about other people. How do you notice that? Okay,
Speaker 1: you're very distracted. They often like to say I have
Speaker 1: a d h D. I'm like, do you have a
Speaker 1: d h D? You just managed to talk about yourself
Speaker 1: for an hour, so that a d h D apparently
Speaker 1: only five minutes ago. So I know some people like context.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, they can't be bothered. They can talk about
Speaker 1: themselves all the time, and then once you say something,
Speaker 1: they're like, how about we just go do something else.
Speaker 1: Then you're just like all right, And they just don't
Speaker 1: care when the conversations not about them, So they will
Speaker 1: take take take, and can be devastating for people. And
Speaker 1: it's a lot for a person to get their head
Speaker 1: around that you just don't care. I know there are
Speaker 1: just people who have those traits but don't necessarily have
Speaker 1: the diagnosis. Very few people have the diagnosis. So you
Speaker 1: hear people talk about narcissistic personality disorder, and that's the
Speaker 1: sort of mental illness, right and honestly in the research
Speaker 1: one to four percent. So people are saying, well, that
Speaker 1: can't be the case, because it's like every other person
Speaker 1: I encounter. And that's because when we talk about narcissism,
Speaker 1: and it's almost an adjective basically, like calling someone stubborn
Speaker 1: or friendly or agreeable. If you say someone's narcissistic, it's
Speaker 1: really a sign that this is someone where it's really
Speaker 1: invalidating to be in their presence. Have you ever had
Speaker 1: experienced yes? Really, it put me in dangerous situations. It
Speaker 1: made me cynical more than anything. It broke my heart.
Speaker 1: For a while, I lived in that reality of I
Speaker 1: was nothing and I didn't deserve better than that. And
Speaker 1: to break those narratives, some of which were ancient for me,
Speaker 1: it took a lifetime of work. I've been in therapy
Speaker 1: for a long time. It's made me much more cautious
Speaker 1: and so I'm very discerning when I meet new people,
Speaker 1: like what about you, Jada? Where you ever? Hurt? Big time,
Speaker 1: big time devastated because you bring people into your your
Speaker 1: inner sanctum when they make you believe that they're one thing,
Speaker 1: and then something happens and then you realize they are
Speaker 1: something completely and utterly different, and it can be very
Speaker 1: painful and dangerous. And it also leads you to doubt
Speaker 1: yourself because the biggest fallout of narcissistic abuse is the
Speaker 1: amount of self doubt that leaves a person when they
Speaker 1: doubt themselves professionally, the relationships and all their decision making.
Speaker 1: Some of them will say, I can't even go to
Speaker 1: the grocery store anymore and make a reasonable decision. I
Speaker 1: always say to people, there's two surefire signs you're in
Speaker 1: a relationship with the narcissists. Number One, you feel compelled
Speaker 1: to start recording all your conversations because you feel like
Speaker 1: I must have heard that wrong. That's how much they
Speaker 1: feel like they're losing their reality. Number Two, you feel
Speaker 1: the need to write these really long texts and emails
Speaker 1: to them explaining yourself because they don't listen. Why would
Speaker 1: they read your email? But people will spend hours days
Speaker 1: writing these long letters, emails, texts, explaining everything, thinking that
Speaker 1: maybe if they take the time to read it, they'll
Speaker 1: understand it. I said, they don't want to understand it,
Speaker 1: so you just wasted three days unless it made you
Speaker 1: feel better to write it something else. I tell folks,
Speaker 1: it's what I call the nine ten rule. We tend
Speaker 1: to put nine of our effort and our energy into
Speaker 1: the most toxic people in our world, leaving only ten
Speaker 1: percent for the good, loving, healthy people. Narcissistic people are
Speaker 1: a full time job. If we flip the math and
Speaker 1: gave to the good people and ten percent to the
Speaker 1: unhealthy ones, it would be so much better for our health.
Speaker 1: It sounds like narcissists know what they're doing. They're not
Speaker 1: aware that they're insecure. Their lack of self awareness means
Speaker 1: they're not even aware of what they're doing to other people. Sadly,
Speaker 1: narcissistic get rewarded for their behavior, so it's hard. They're
Speaker 1: always getting told by the world, you're great, you're fantastic.
Speaker 1: It's hard to end the pattern. Yeah, I've worked with
Speaker 1: clients who are in their eighties, and I've worked with
Speaker 1: clients who are eighteen and I'm gonna be frank with you.
Speaker 1: I actually think the Baby Boomers are the most narcissistic
Speaker 1: generation of all. They were generation. It's all about me.
Speaker 1: I gotta make it about me. And what ended up
Speaker 1: happening is they've kind of robbed the treasury. The millennials
Speaker 1: are really suffering financially. They're putting your dreams on ice
Speaker 1: and the baby wears on no problem, sort of taking
Speaker 1: their half out of the middle. So that feels narcissistic
Speaker 1: to me, all due respect. Wow, that is really interesting.
Speaker 1: I was not expecting that. So I actually think we're
Speaker 1: throwing the poor millennials under the bus. They've got a
Speaker 1: lot more heart than my colleagues who were the Baby Boomers.
Speaker 1: Just lost my job, but that never guess the millennials
Speaker 1: have their moments. Taking a selfie doesn't make you a narcissist,
Speaker 1: but living and dying by that selfie, that's where it
Speaker 1: becomes that when you're entire what about when every single
Speaker 1: photo on your Instagram that's the problem, That's what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: When it becomes a measure of a person's self worth, right,
Speaker 1: So you have to figure out what's normative. Do you
Speaker 1: think people over time, have just become just more insecure.
Speaker 1: Do you know why I think about it. I can't
Speaker 1: get you to buy something unless I can convince you
Speaker 1: you need it. So if I tell you a lot prettier,
Speaker 1: if you're wearing a different pair of shoes exactly, and
Speaker 1: if you're vulnerable to that message, which most people are, like,
Speaker 1: I need to have the shoes. How do you become
Speaker 1: a narcissist if you're not born that way? There's no
Speaker 1: narcissistic babies. This one's on the squarely under sadly on
Speaker 1: the shoulders of the parents. Kids who are narcissistic either
Speaker 1: had narcissistic parents themselves or really distracted parents. Kids who
Speaker 1: are overindulged, meaning that they get anything they want, all
Speaker 1: the experience, any money, but their emotional needs are completely undernourished.
Speaker 1: That's the difference there as far as they're concerned. They
Speaker 1: go to Disneyland every weekend, but sometimes they just want
Speaker 1: to cry and say I feel sad, I feel scared,
Speaker 1: and there's no adult to be found when that happens.
Speaker 1: That over indulgence against under indulgence teaches the child that
Speaker 1: only they're outside external stuff matters, and then kids will
Speaker 1: only get valued for what they do. You kick a
Speaker 1: soccer ball, well, you're saying, well, you get good grades,
Speaker 1: you look pretty. Those kids learn that realize I'm only
Speaker 1: about the things I do and how I look, and
Speaker 1: nobody cares about my inside world. By the time they're
Speaker 1: about sixteen, seventeen eighteen, that starts to emerge, and there's
Speaker 1: not a whole heck of a lot you can do
Speaker 1: about it. This is not a pattern that changes. It
Speaker 1: doesn't change. So you're telling me that a narcissist can't
Speaker 1: be cured. I this is this is what healthy. This
Speaker 1: is what healthy you need to be for a healthy
Speaker 1: relationship right up here? Okay, respectful, client, compassionate, they're present,
Speaker 1: all that good stuff. Okay, here's the narcissist. All right.
Speaker 1: Even a good therapist like me and I have a
Speaker 1: third of my clients or narcissists. I can get them
Speaker 1: up to here. We got a problem, so we can
Speaker 1: teach them to be on time. But now they're on
Speaker 1: time and not listening to you. So how does one
Speaker 1: open their life to a narcissist? And they're so good
Speaker 1: at making you feel like the center of their universe.
Speaker 1: We actually call it love bombing. It's like getting a
Speaker 1: butterfly underglass. It's a game. And then once they get
Speaker 1: the beautiful creature underglass, they put it up on a
Speaker 1: shelf and they forget about it, and it hurts. That
Speaker 1: day they discard you and just put you up on
Speaker 1: the shelf is a cold, dark day because you felt
Speaker 1: the sun was only shining for you. I feel like
Speaker 1: a lot of people who have those issues in romantic
Speaker 1: relationships do that for some reason, like they want to
Speaker 1: win you, and then they get you, and then it's
Speaker 1: like now they turn right and they play the game. Well,
Speaker 1: they're really good at courtship, you know, it's the big gesture.
Speaker 1: And everything happens too fast. You're moving in too fast,
Speaker 1: you're getting engaged too fast, you're getting married too fast.
Speaker 1: And in that way, they kind of trap you even more.
Speaker 1: Because narcissists are really controlling. Research shows they're more likely
Speaker 1: to get a partner than a person who's less narcissistic
Speaker 1: because they are so successful so they make more money.
Speaker 1: But the person that falls for that seems like it
Speaker 1: would be a person with really low self esteem. Maybe
Speaker 1: not necessarily. That's why it's strange. It's almost there's two
Speaker 1: groups it's what you're saying. It's people who are themselves
Speaker 1: very insecure, who come from tough backgrounds, and who are
Speaker 1: people pleasers. People pleasers are very vulnerable to narcissism. Where
Speaker 1: do they become people pleasers? But they fall for it
Speaker 1: because they want to fix and they run around in
Speaker 1: circles and they keep giving that narcissist all the supply
Speaker 1: the narcissist. God. But isn't people pleasing part of just
Speaker 1: wanting to be accepted in light? But why can't you
Speaker 1: just be enough without doing all the effort? When your
Speaker 1: people please, you're really are putting in an active effort,
Speaker 1: almost like I'm not good enough unless I'm doing something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I might have a little bit of that hearing it
Speaker 1: like that is like I used to hear people please
Speaker 1: and be like, oh, that's not me. But then when
Speaker 1: it's like, oh no, like you want to help, it's
Speaker 1: more of like I'm here for you, it's more like
Speaker 1: about me, Like I feel like I'm not doing my part.
Speaker 1: But then why do you have to do a part?
Speaker 1: You see, a natural relationship is not that effortful. But
Speaker 1: a lot of people can, especially women, grow up believing
Speaker 1: they have to do to earn love because, believe it
Speaker 1: or not, people start seeing her from my cold dependence.
Speaker 1: That's what I'll take care of you in six weeks,
Speaker 1: will be quick. Tomorrow's good. That's right. This ship, we're good.
Speaker 1: But on the flip side. And this is what's so interesting.
Speaker 1: People from really happy families fault for these folks because
Speaker 1: we want to think this really insecure people with low
Speaker 1: self esteem, people from really happy families actually believe love
Speaker 1: can cure everything. Let's forgive, let's your second chances. The
Speaker 1: worst thing you can do to a narcissist is forgive
Speaker 1: them and give them second chances because they're going to
Speaker 1: run with that and they're going to take your forgiveness
Speaker 1: and turn it into a weapon. So what happens to
Speaker 1: the person was in a relationship with a narcissist. People
Speaker 1: get stuck in these part of It's like an addiction.
Speaker 1: It's like chasing a high. I've got people ten years
Speaker 1: into a marriage, we're saying, I just want to go
Speaker 1: back to that weekend in Miami. I said that weekend
Speaker 1: Miami was ten years ago. I mean, I don't care
Speaker 1: how good the sex was, that was still one weekend. Okay,
Speaker 1: what narcissists are masterful at is as soon as they
Speaker 1: feel like their partners pulling away, it's love bombing Part two,
Speaker 1: Part three, and you see how it becomes an addiction.
Speaker 1: The other person in the relationship learns like, oh, if
Speaker 1: I start pulling back, then they're gonna chase me, and
Speaker 1: that starts becoming a new dysfunctional cycle. But the big
Speaker 1: mistake that keeps people in is they think they can
Speaker 1: change the narcissist. Some people spend twenty years trying to
Speaker 1: change this person. I'm going to dress differently, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: lose weight, I'm going to make more money, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: pay more attention. I'm going to watch football. I'm going
Speaker 1: to have one kid. I'm gonna have five kids. And
Speaker 1: that's a lot of what keeps narcissists in business is
Speaker 1: we still believe in fairy tales. I really think someone's
Speaker 1: going to sweep in and make it all better. So
Speaker 1: are they usually cloaked in like some sob stories. Always
Speaker 1: a lot of narcissistic people have really rough back stories.
Speaker 1: They may have been neglected, they may have been abused,
Speaker 1: But here's the rub. It's not an excuse for abusing
Speaker 1: someone Now, that's never acceptable. And if somebody says the
Speaker 1: reason I'm like this with you, the reason I'm mean
Speaker 1: to you is because this was done to me, I
Speaker 1: tell the person who is being victimized by this, you
Speaker 1: got to get out because you didn't do that to
Speaker 1: them in the first place. Abuse is never excusable. I
Speaker 1: don't care what a person's backstory is. So if you're
Speaker 1: in a relationship with a malignant narcissist, how the hell
Speaker 1: do you get it? It's not easy, it's actually scary,
Speaker 1: and it can be dangerous. Like I'm not going to
Speaker 1: sugarcoat this, okay, Please just find your power and walk
Speaker 1: out door. Because malignant narcissists do something we call coercive controls.
Speaker 1: It's like what you've seen in classical domestic abuse situations.
Speaker 1: They track a person's comings and goings. They know everyone
Speaker 1: you talk to. They isolate you from the people you love.
Speaker 1: You don't feel like you have a safe place to
Speaker 1: go to anymore. There's often financial abuse. People in these
Speaker 1: relationships will sometimes give up their careers because they've become
Speaker 1: so isolated and they're faking it to the world. Many times,
Speaker 1: other people don't know how bad it is. Now In
Speaker 1: the worst of these cases, it gets very dangerous. There's
Speaker 1: a need for restraining orders, and sometimes these stories do
Speaker 1: end tragically. There's no minimizing this. I have worked with
Speaker 1: women who it takes us four or five years to
Speaker 1: get them out, and there's no clock on this. So
Speaker 1: it's because of the mental and emotional attachment. It is,
Speaker 1: it's it's but it's mental and mental control. Somebody literally
Speaker 1: running you like a puppet and so and then sometimes
Speaker 1: people leave and it's terrifying. There they are years in
Speaker 1: court dealing with horrific custody battles because many times the
Speaker 1: narcissists doesn't actually really want the kid. They want to
Speaker 1: stick it to their acts, and that narcissist parent may
Speaker 1: turn those kids against their healthy parents. That's not unusual either.
Speaker 1: So the fallout from this is huge. I get that.
Speaker 1: I think we have so much judgment when we see
Speaker 1: people in certain kinds of entanglements and not really understanding
Speaker 1: it's all about about you know, that's danger of it. Also,
Speaker 1: it's have a I would think it's have a package it.
Speaker 1: You're gonna be with me, I'm gonna take care of you.
Speaker 1: You don't have to work, you know, you just enjoy
Speaker 1: your life and you don't need those friends over there.
Speaker 1: They you don't need they bringing you down. And always
Speaker 1: wait for the ultimate narcissistic love sentence. No one's ever
Speaker 1: going to love you the way I love you. I
Speaker 1: do that is that's like wearing a malignant narcissisting stuff.
Speaker 1: Get out, like go to the bathroom during the day,
Speaker 1: and why the window out the bathroom, like you need
Speaker 1: to get out, like one is gonna love you like
Speaker 1: But yet some people think that's romantic. I'm so, and
Speaker 1: they are considered love songs, not psychopathology songs. Right, it's
Speaker 1: really really dark that song Every move you made, every
Speaker 1: breath you take. I'll be watching that'scissist a whole playlist
Speaker 1: because it's really scary. But keep in mind to what
Speaker 1: malignant narcissists and all narcissist due to their partners they
Speaker 1: confuse them. They do something called gas lighting, and gaslighters
Speaker 1: when you doubt someone's reality. Okay, because people say that
Speaker 1: a lot, and I wasn't quite sure what that meant either,
Speaker 1: you're being too sensitive as a classic example of gas lighting,
Speaker 1: because you are actually denying someone's emotions that never happened.
Speaker 1: I never said that you're crazy, you're the narcissist. That's
Speaker 1: all gas light. It's like being an occult. It's like
Speaker 1: living with a bunch of mirrors, but none of them
Speaker 1: show your own reflection. That's what it's like to be
Speaker 1: a narcissistic when wow, oh my god, that's so scared
Speaker 1: that they overtake their minds and the person is so
Speaker 1: confused that it gets to be too hard to leave.
Speaker 1: They actually believe they're a bad person. They're too sensitive,
Speaker 1: they're foolish, they're stupid, and that's their self talk. When
Speaker 1: does that term come from? Because I don't even get
Speaker 1: out a term means what it means. It comes from
Speaker 1: a movie called Gaslight, and it was about a man
Speaker 1: who lives in a house back in the old days
Speaker 1: when you had gaslights and you could turn them up
Speaker 1: and down and change the intensity of the light. And
Speaker 1: he kept fooling with the levels of the gaslight and
Speaker 1: she'd say, oh, have you turned up the lights? He
Speaker 1: said no, and she goes crazy, she goes completely. She yeah,
Speaker 1: that's where the term comes from. We asked you are
Speaker 1: our t T fan, about how narcissism has affected your lives,
Speaker 1: and we receive thousands of messages from across the world. First,
Speaker 1: we have a Lisa from Chicago. Hi Lisa, Hi, every
Speaker 1: want to go nice to meet you. So sharing with
Speaker 1: us what's going on my situation is a little tricky.
Speaker 1: It's about my mother. Oh, basically, growing up, my mother
Speaker 1: has always made fatements like all my kids do is
Speaker 1: take take take from me, um. She's made statements that
Speaker 1: her life would be better off without children. And so
Speaker 1: when I decided to become a mother, which was a
Speaker 1: big choice, especially when you hear growing up that kids
Speaker 1: are not a great idea, I found myself triggered, but
Speaker 1: just being a mom, but I would look at him
Speaker 1: with resentment and anger the same way that I experienced
Speaker 1: as a kid, and even to this day. And we
Speaker 1: can talk on the phone for a little bit, or
Speaker 1: she can come for a visit, and then I'm sad,
Speaker 1: I'm angry. So with someone like myself who has a
Speaker 1: relationship with a parent who can exhibit some narcissistic traits,
Speaker 1: how do you continue on in your life and how
Speaker 1: do you stop yourself from inflick being that type of
Speaker 1: pain on your own kids. It's such a great question.
Speaker 1: First of all, you said an important word, which was grief.
Speaker 1: Many ways, when a person as a narcissistic parent, what
Speaker 1: they grieve is that they didn't get the thing that
Speaker 1: every child deserves, which is a loving, consistent parent. That's
Speaker 1: a huge part of the healing. Recognizing that so you
Speaker 1: can grieve it and let it go. What's striking me
Speaker 1: those you still have contact with your mom, and those
Speaker 1: conversations leave you feeling depleted, invalidated. Those are classical reactions.
Speaker 1: Part of your healing is putting up better boundaries with mom.
Speaker 1: I don't care if you have to set a timer
Speaker 1: during those phone conversations. You might notice that you hit
Speaker 1: the wall at five minutes, eight minutes, ten minutes. Do
Speaker 1: not stay on the phone with her for too long
Speaker 1: because I hate to say it, and forgive me for
Speaker 1: being this dismissive, but it's like a toxin, you know,
Speaker 1: and if you keep taking it in, you're not going
Speaker 1: to feel good. Being invalidated doesn't feel good, and I
Speaker 1: actually applaud you for your willingness to try to maintain
Speaker 1: that relationship, but you have to do it in a
Speaker 1: way that preserves you. You need to learn to mother
Speaker 1: you because you didn't get that. So in some ways,
Speaker 1: resenting your son is because you're having a mother yourself
Speaker 1: at the same time, your mother and your son. That's
Speaker 1: a lot of work. It's a lot of work. It's courageous.
Speaker 1: You are not to blame for your mother dropping the ball.
Speaker 1: That was her responsibility. Make sure you stay clear on that.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, thanks to Lisa. I hope that helps you
Speaker 1: on your journey. Yes, now we have Sharon from New York.
Speaker 1: How are you. I'm doing good. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for having me. So my ex boyfriend and I have
Speaker 1: two children together, is a narcissist, jealous and controlling. About
Speaker 1: four months ago, I broke up with him and have
Speaker 1: been attempting to co parent, but it's been horrible. He
Speaker 1: continues to try to control me, being jealous, asking me
Speaker 1: where I am, and even goals as far as texting
Speaker 1: my son to the answers and I tell them we're
Speaker 1: no longer together. He plays itself and we get nowhere.
Speaker 1: So I need to know how do I navigate this.
Speaker 1: I want my kids to have a relationship with their dad,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, I need to have healthy
Speaker 1: boundaries in place for that to happen. You know, So, Sharon,
Speaker 1: you said something interesting, I'm co parenting with him, You're
Speaker 1: actually not. You're a single parent with an elephant on
Speaker 1: your back. You are going to have to be the
Speaker 1: strong link in this chain for them. You're going to
Speaker 1: be the one who teaches them empathy, You're going to
Speaker 1: be the one who teaches them how to manage their emotions.
Speaker 1: And you have to be that consistent space because it's
Speaker 1: not unusual for narcissistic co parent to turn kids around
Speaker 1: against their other parents, to almost turn them into spies
Speaker 1: against that parent. And this isn't going to be an
Speaker 1: easy journey. You're going to need support. And the other thing, Sharon,
Speaker 1: is it's critical your document everything. You keep, every text message,
Speaker 1: you keep every voicemail. Even though you weren't married, so
Speaker 1: you don't have to go through a divorce, you may
Speaker 1: still have to deal with family court and documentation is everything.
Speaker 1: You don't get to walton into a courtroom and say
Speaker 1: he's a narcissist. They're not going to hear it. So
Speaker 1: you need to monitor the situation more closely than anyone
Speaker 1: because you are their advocate, and keep an eye on
Speaker 1: those kids, like if they start feeling like they're getting anxious,
Speaker 1: you need to step in and make sure they get
Speaker 1: the services they need. This isn't an easy road for them,
Speaker 1: but you need to take care of you every day
Speaker 1: of this is going to feel like a difficult battle
Speaker 1: and journey. Please be ready for that because he's not
Speaker 1: going to go quietly. He's always going to try to
Speaker 1: control you long after those kids turn eighteen. Shan, you
Speaker 1: think you can do that, Yeah, I'm gonna try. Try.
Speaker 1: It's a process. Process. Yeah, just make sure you go
Speaker 1: into the community and try to get yourself some help
Speaker 1: because you need support in this. Yes, don't be trying
Speaker 1: to use domestic abuse resources. A lot of women think
Speaker 1: these aren't relevant to me. Right, I'm not getting beaten up.
Speaker 1: That's actually a small sliver of what they do. They
Speaker 1: are really what an understanding coercive control and emotional abuse,
Speaker 1: and they often have some of the best advocates and
Speaker 1: know that you're not alone. We had a lot of
Speaker 1: people right in about this exact kind of scenario. Thankank, you, Sharon,
Speaker 1: thank you. The awareness is on point. Maybe no one is.
Speaker 1: This is where the Internet changed the game. Because you're
Speaker 1: looking up. My partner does not listen to me, and
Speaker 1: I'm always walking on eggshells. Narcissist comes out back in
Speaker 1: the day. How would you have known that? Next is
Speaker 1: Gennie from Maryland. Hey Jennie, what can we help you
Speaker 1: with today? So? For the past nine years, I've been
Speaker 1: in a very toxic and emotionally abusive relationship. We've broken
Speaker 1: up several times, and he always manages to suck me
Speaker 1: back in. Part of me feels like it's because I'm
Speaker 1: afraid to get old alone, and my sixteen year old
Speaker 1: daughter keeps telling me I deserve better this time. I
Speaker 1: don't want to get sucked back in, and I just
Speaker 1: don't know how to let go. So what does he say?
Speaker 1: What does he do to pull you back in? I
Speaker 1: love you, I missed you. I can't live without you.
Speaker 1: I know I screwed up. You're the best thing that's
Speaker 1: ever happened to me. And since you've been to this
Speaker 1: rodeo a few times, you know that that's not going
Speaker 1: to happen. I want you to take the time and
Speaker 1: write down every terrible thing he's done. You need it
Speaker 1: all in one place, because when you want to hear
Speaker 1: I love you, It's amazing how selective our memory becomes.
Speaker 1: We engage in something called euphoric recall. We only remember
Speaker 1: that one good thing in the midst of a thousand
Speaker 1: bad ones. You need to almost be popped out of
Speaker 1: the kind of hypnosis that happens. That's number one. Number two,
Speaker 1: by being in a relationship with him, there's times you
Speaker 1: missed out on certain things in your life. Friendships, you
Speaker 1: didn't pay attention to, experiences you didn't have. When we
Speaker 1: think about loneliness, we make it too much about a partner.
Speaker 1: And I get that, But go and do those things
Speaker 1: with your friends, like watch the movies you wouldn't watch
Speaker 1: with you, stay at the party late. Because what happens,
Speaker 1: and we get so focused on making a connection with
Speaker 1: a partner, we forget that there's all these other people
Speaker 1: we can get connection from. And the more we practice
Speaker 1: healthy connection, the less willing we will be able to
Speaker 1: take the junk that someone like him is sending your way.
Speaker 1: It also requires you to step up to the plate
Speaker 1: of your own soul and remind yourself you deserve better.
Speaker 1: You have to be able to do that for yourself.
Speaker 1: I can't tell you, No one at this table can
Speaker 1: tell you. This is an exorcism. You've got to let
Speaker 1: this demon God change your phone number, Genie, change your
Speaker 1: phone number, And what about her putting? If she can't
Speaker 1: put herself first, think about her daughter. That's right. I
Speaker 1: totally agree with Gammy because you know what she's going
Speaker 1: to learn here, Genie. She's going to learn judgment about men.
Speaker 1: And if she sees that her judgment was on and
Speaker 1: you acted in accordance with that, you may be protecting
Speaker 1: her from making the same as the same mistake. Thank you, Genie,
Speaker 1: Thank you Genie, thank you you got this. Thank you,
Speaker 1: this was really enlightening. Thank you for making this amaz
Speaker 1: amazing show to hear three generations. It's it's unbeliovd like
Speaker 1: that you really have like thank you. I can just
Speaker 1: say on behalf of the people I get to help you.
Speaker 1: You're making a difference. You bring it tears to my eyes.
Speaker 1: That's why we do it. Hey, Urtt family, Join our
Speaker 1: Red Table talk group on Facebook to become part of
Speaker 1: the conversation one and be sure to follow the show
Speaker 1: page to catch up on all our episodes. So we're
Speaker 1: here with Dr Maminy. So we're talking about narcissism. Swipe
Speaker 1: all right, but a pleasure. Thank you so much. Do
Speaker 1: I think people will benefit from that time to join
Speaker 1: the red table Talk family and become a part of
Speaker 1: the conversation. Follow us at facebook dot com slash red
Speaker 1: table talk. Thanks for listening to this episode of Red
Speaker 1: Table Talk podcast. Produce uspot, Facebook, Watch, Westbrook Audio, and
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio.