1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk's assassination tells us a lot about where we 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: are spiritually and culturally, and why did Pope Leo suppress 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: a pair of Chinese dioceses. The Prayerful Posse explores it all. Next, 4 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: Welcome to a very special Prayerful Posse. Be sure to 5 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: go subscribe to the show. It's a wonderful way to 6 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: support our work and totally free, So subscribe away, bring 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: friends and you can support our work at Raymondarroyo dot com. 8 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: A word about Charlie Kirk before I assemble today's Posse. 9 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: I knew Charlie. 10 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 2: I interviewed him. 11 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: On Fox multiple times, texted him often. We talked about faith, 12 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: we talked about politics. He was one of the most 13 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: effective political activists on the scene. He was largely credited 14 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: with galvanizing the young vote for Donald Trump in the 15 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: last election. Well, this week, he was a shot murdered, 16 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: as many of you have heard, in front of a 17 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: college audience where he was engaging with excited crowds of 18 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: young people at a Utah campus. 19 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 2: Now, some have. 20 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: Said he was slain because of free speech. His opponents 21 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: didn't like what he was saying. I'm not sure That's 22 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: the reason I'm more persuaded to believe that he was 23 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: killed because someone or some group saw him as a 24 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: political threat. For Charlie Kirk, politics was an advocation, but 25 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: his faith in God was his real focus. He knew 26 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: what true religion was. His politics was merely an overflow 27 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: of that deeply held faith. For too many, politics has 28 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: become a religion, one worth killing for. After the gains 29 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk made with young voters and his continuing influence, 30 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: someone apparently thought the only way to stop him was 31 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: to kill him. What an evil, wicked, horrible thought. We've 32 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: seen a cultural pattern of this poisonous thought of late, 33 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: the multiple assassination attempts on President Trump's life, that poor 34 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: young woman stabbed in the throat by the repeat offender 35 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,959 Speaker 1: on a train in Charlotte. In June, a shooter dressed 36 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: as a cop and killed a Minnesota lawmaker and her 37 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: husband in their home. Then there's the ongoing Lionization, the 38 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: cult status of Luigi Mangioni, who shot a healthcare executive 39 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 1: in New York City in the back. All of these 40 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: cases demonstrate the power I believe of the demonic and 41 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: a hatred for human life and dignity. But they also 42 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: have habituated us to the idea that those whom you 43 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: disagree with or take issue with for any reason deserve 44 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: to die. Last week, the Pope said, following that heinous 45 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: Minneapolis church shooting where little children were killed during mass, 46 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: that we have a pandemic of arms. 47 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: Perhaps he's right, but what about. 48 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: The pandemic of hatred, the pandemic of ideology, the pandemic 49 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: of the demonic. When I watched before Charlie Kirk bleeding 50 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 1: from his wound, all I could think was how diabolical 51 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: this is a young father shot before his own child 52 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: and supporters who looked up to him. Whomever that sniper 53 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: was that killed Charlie, they probably thought they were ending 54 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: Kirk's efforts, killing his movement. What that sniper really created 55 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: were one hundred Charlie Kirks. I've spoken yesterday and today 56 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: with young people on college campuses, and they are hurting, 57 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: they're furious, but they're pouring all of that into continuing 58 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: Kirk's example of tradition, fatherhood, family, love of God, and 59 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: political activism. And that's really what Kirk was all about. 60 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: Kirk's wife was Catholic and Over the last few months 61 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: he began attending Mass with her at their local parish 62 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: in Arizona, and if you listen to his message in 63 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: recent days, he could not have been more clear. 64 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 3: Evil cannot exist. If there is no standard of good, 65 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 3: evil does not exist. Evil is just an opinion. If 66 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 3: there is no God, murder is not wrong. If there 67 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 3: is no God, stealing is not wrong. If there is 68 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 3: no God, and we believe it, we know as believers 69 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 3: that there is an absolute standard above us that we 70 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 3: appeal to. I think we, as pradence and evangelicals under 71 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 3: venerate Mary. She was very important. She was a vessel 72 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 3: for our Lord and Savior. There's something there. In fact, 73 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 3: I believe one of the ways that we fix toxic 74 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 3: feminism in America is Mary is the solution. 75 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 4: Young men are going back to church. That is legit, 76 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 4: that's happening because honestly, it's the only thing that they 77 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 4: can find. It's a life raft in this just tsunami 78 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 4: of chaos, total and disorder. They want something that has lasted. 79 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 4: They want someth that is ancient and that is beautiful, 80 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 4: some that has stood the test of time, some that's 81 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 4: not going to change. 82 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk loved God and his family, and those who 83 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: watched and listened to him certainly got that most important mess. 84 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: I want to bring now, Father Robert sir Rico in, 85 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: the founder of the Act and institute. Father, thank you 86 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: for being here. What does this represent? Do you think 87 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: in our history? This slaying of Charlie Kirk, this pattern 88 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: of political violence and assassination that we're seeing moving through 89 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: the culture. 90 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 5: Well, it is a very sad day. And you have 91 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 5: articulated and outlined many of the problems. I would say 92 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 5: that if I were going to look at the root 93 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 5: of this thing, it is really the rejection of reason. 94 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 5: If Charlie represented anything, you know, I've heard people say 95 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 5: he was antagonistic, and he was disrespectfully, he hated people. 96 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 5: But all you have to do is go through his 97 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 5: ubiquitous presentations around this country and he would say, if 98 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 5: you disagree with me, come to the front of the 99 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 5: line and tell me why he exemplified. You know, I 100 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 5: didn't know him. We were in venues to get but 101 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 5: I never really got to know him. I would love 102 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 5: to have had a go around at dinner with him, 103 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 5: because I like a man who can reason and who 104 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 5: can keep his cool and really seek the truth. And 105 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 5: I think this diminishment of reason, which we see particularly 106 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 5: in the trans movement, where people don't want to debate it, 107 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 5: they just want to cancel you in one way or another. 108 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 5: We see it in the disrespect for human life and 109 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,119 Speaker 5: the very fact that you can't talk about human life 110 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 5: and its dignity, the abandonment of reason in that regard, 111 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 5: and many many other issues where people are just so polarized, 112 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 5: and when people are polarized, they resort to violence. 113 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 2: Yeah. 114 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: Well, and also, Father, you know something I've been saying 115 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: for months. When you don't have a functioning opposition party 116 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 1: and you have one that is so damaged, it is 117 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: really unhealthy for the republic because what happens is the 118 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: people who are part of that feel so disenfranchised without 119 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 1: a voice, they believe violence is a way to get 120 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: your message across. And I do feel there's some of 121 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: that happening on the political side. But I want you 122 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:14,239 Speaker 1: to reflect for a moment about Kirk. Increasingly, and I've 123 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: watched him over many years. He started as kind of 124 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: blatantly political and partisan, I would say, talking about the 125 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: issues the free market and the issues of the party 126 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: that he championed. As time went on, and I guess 127 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: this came with maturity, and as he was married and 128 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: had children, he began to focus on faith and family 129 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: and encouraging young people, particularly young men, go get married 130 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: and have a family. So you realize what this is 131 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: all about. That really, that striving for holiness and God 132 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: became the centerpiece of his message. 133 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 2: Did that make him a target? Do you think? 134 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 5: Yeah? I think it's all of the piece really, And 135 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 5: I think you're exactly right in tracing that in Charlie, 136 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 5: because I, like you, I watched that development and I 137 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 5: was really quite surprised to see a political leader articulating 138 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 5: his faith as as solidly as he did. You know, 139 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 5: this wasn't euphemisms, This wasn't flourish and many politicians speak 140 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 5: about well, let's pray and you know all this kind 141 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 5: of thing. Now, he knew what he was talking about, 142 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 5: he knew what the core of the faith was. But 143 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 5: then he had this ability to reach beyond that and 144 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 5: respect people who disagreed with him and ask him why. 145 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 5: They asked him why he disagreed, They disagreed, And I 146 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 5: think the hatred of a person like that so compelling, 147 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 5: so reasonable, is what produces this. 148 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to bring in Gordon Chang, who's a 149 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: international expert. Of course I always turned to Gordon about 150 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: the situation in the East. 151 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 2: But Gordon, I want to get. 152 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: Your reflections on this, on Charlie Kirk and this assassination 153 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 1: and put it in a goal context. How does it 154 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: fit into what we see in other countries. I mean, 155 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: there are political assassinations abroad. It's something we're unaccustomed to, 156 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: except in recent memory with Donald Trump. Something we were 157 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: unaccustomed to here in the United States. 158 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 6: Raymond, this reminds me of nineteen sixty eight. You know, 159 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 6: you had before that, in sixty three the assassination of 160 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 6: President Kennedy. But in sixty eight the assassinations of Robert 161 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 6: Kennedy and of course Martin Luther King. The United States 162 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 6: was in turmoil. Eventually we were able to reconstitute ourselves. 163 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 6: We will be able to do that again. But the 164 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 6: most important thing I believe is that we do have 165 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 6: to have faith, because that does bind families together, communities, 166 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 6: and of course the nation. 167 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, Father, you mentioned it. Charlie was 168 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: such a curious guy. You know, he was self taught. 169 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: He didn't go to college. I mean, he went to 170 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: high school, but he didn't go to college. Built that organization, 171 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: but he read vociferously, and he always was so curious 172 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: about how things were done, how you did this. He 173 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: would always ask me questions about framing arguments and jokes 174 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: I would make. He was very curious about those things, 175 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 1: and I think as time went on, he realized this 176 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: is the only answer to all these problems that ail us. 177 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: It's faith, it's family, it's community, and that message was 178 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: beginning to emerge. How horrible that it was cut short. 179 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: But what are the political consequences of this? Do you 180 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: think is what we are seeing the result of heated 181 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: rhetoric and the demonization of people rather the engagement of 182 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: ideas that Charlie Kirk really embodied. 183 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 5: Who knows what's going to happen from this. It's going 184 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 5: to depend on what we do in the next few 185 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 5: days and months ahead, and whether leaders can emerge who 186 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 5: can really kind of bring this whole thing together. I 187 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 5: think one of the great things that could happen now. 188 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 5: And I don't want in any way to appear partisan. 189 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 5: And I don't know the motives behind the person who 190 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 5: murdered Charlie but I think the left needs to apologize 191 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 5: for the rhetoric and tone it down. I would like 192 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 5: to see some kind of gathering of people one on 193 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:30,719 Speaker 5: one in group where we can have not just a 194 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 5: ornamental conversation, but a real conversation where we disagree in charity. 195 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: You know. 196 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 5: I think that Robbie George and Cornell West exemplify this 197 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 5: so beautifully. If we can follow a model like that, 198 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 5: I think we can move toward a healing. But there 199 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 5: are great cultural plates that have to move right now 200 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 5: if we're going to avoid the abyss. 201 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, Gordon, do you think the heated rhetoric is It's 202 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: such a fever pitch, and the demonization of people not 203 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: ideas has sort of poisoned the well in our political 204 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: system and media. 205 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 6: I might add, Yeah, it certainly has poisoned the well. 206 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 6: But you can have an event like this, an assassination 207 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 6: of a beloved figure. It can change the politics, It 208 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 6: can change the culture right away because people understand how 209 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 6: dangerous this has become, and people then understand the consequence 210 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 6: of their words and actions. 211 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 212 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: Well, I got to tell you I've been talking to 213 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: a lot of young people, my children included, on campuses 214 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: about four different campuses. 215 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 2: There is a. 216 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: There is certainly an upsetment and a deep wound that's 217 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 1: been inflicted through this. But these kids are motivated and focused, 218 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: and I worry that you don't want them to tip 219 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: into anger. But they are certainly on fire now and galvanized. 220 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm hearing things like I'm not no, 221 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: there's no more hiding. I'm going to tell everybody what 222 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: I think, which I think might be. You know, depending 223 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: on how you do that, you can go down bad 224 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: ends there. 225 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 5: But especially especially in the life of a young person 226 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 5: where you're just coming alive to these social issues, you 227 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 5: think of it as a stage. How am I going 228 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 5: to formulate my positions? How am I going to interact 229 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 5: with people? But an event like this brings home the 230 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 5: reality of what we're talking about, and if it sobers 231 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 5: people and deepens commitment to the kind of conversation that 232 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 5: Charlie wanted to have, the pursuit of truth above everything else, 233 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 5: then maybe some good can come from this great tragedy. 234 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 2: Well. 235 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: I hope everyone will keep the repose of Charlie Kirk's 236 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: soul and the consolation of his family, his wife Erica, 237 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: their children, and their prayers and God rest his soul. 238 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: To return to a story that we covered last week, Father, 239 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: this LGBT jubilee in Rome. Yes, look, this story remains 240 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: rather murky. Vatican spokesman Matteo Bruni was asked about the 241 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: Vatican involvement in this LGBT jubilee, and he told an 242 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: Italian journalist this quote. The event itself was organized by 243 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: Tenda d Giornata without the involvement of the Holy See, 244 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: except for matters concerning organizational aspects connected with the officers 245 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: that oversee the jubilee activities. 246 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 2: End quote. 247 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: Father, your reaction to this non explanation, explanation and what 248 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: does it tell you? 249 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 5: The first thing we need to do is look at 250 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 5: the backdrop of what's going on. We're in the middle 251 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 5: of a transition and a papacy, and what policies were 252 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 5: established prior to this new papacy. With regard to how 253 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 5: groups are vetted and coming in, I really simply don't know. 254 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 5: I don't remember twenty five years ago groups coming in 255 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 5: and being vetted and things like that. My understanding of 256 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 5: it was all you had to do was go on 257 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 5: a website and say we want to be on a 258 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 5: pilgrimage and we're coming. And the logistical stuff that the 259 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 5: Potovoce is speaking about is that stuff, but not a 260 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 5: seal of approval of the different groups that are thinking. 261 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 5: And from my perspective, by all means come, pray, come 262 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 5: through the holy door, go to confession. You know, all 263 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 5: of the things that are part and parcel of what 264 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 5: it means to make a pilgrimage during a jubilee. This 265 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 5: is one thing. The next thing is what happens on 266 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 5: the inside. And I can't help but pray and think 267 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 5: that there are a lot of very embarrassed gay people 268 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 5: at what they saw inside Saint Peter's basilica, kind of 269 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 5: like that event that took place at Saint Patrick's cathedral. 270 00:15:58,640 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: Lee. 271 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 5: I think this is very comparable to that. Not keeping 272 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 5: your eye on who's coming in the door. 273 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 2: M yeah. 274 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: Well, they again they used it as a stage and 275 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: ground for a political argument. 276 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 2: And then you had James Martin. Father Martin went out 277 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 2: and basically worked the press. 278 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: He had a papal audience and he walked out to 279 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: the Reuters and the AP cameras and you know, started 280 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: spinning the story instantly, which became part and parcel of 281 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: defining what was ultimately a private pilgrimage that became or 282 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: felt like a Vatican sanctioned event, and the Vatican was 283 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: whether they were whether they were stupidly twisted and used here, 284 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: or they were complicit. It's a it's a mixed message 285 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: that they're sending, and. 286 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 5: It's confusion in the middle of this transition, right, I 287 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 5: think we need I've seen a lot of online criticism 288 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 5: of the Pope, and I don't think that comes into 289 00:16:54,840 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 5: play here. I think that he doesn't have his hands 290 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 5: around everything yet. And we're going to talk for a moment. 291 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 5: I think in a mound about China, I think that 292 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 5: that also is part of this whole thing. 293 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 2: Okay, so you're right. 294 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: It off to kind of the old hand still holding 295 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: the rudder here, and the Pope hasn't quite gotten control 296 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: of all the staff. 297 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 5: There's a lot of sloppiness for the last decade, and 298 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 5: this is sloppy. Yeah, and this Pope doesn't speak to 299 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 5: me about sloppiness. 300 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, before I get to China. 301 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:33,239 Speaker 1: Father, an Italian priest, was just suspended for hosting a 302 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: live stream where he said the reforms of the Second 303 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: Vatican Consul were incompatible with Catholic teaching. 304 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 2: So you know, you had swift punishment. 305 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,719 Speaker 1: Here, and yet you have the embrace of notions and 306 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: ideas and even ideologies at odds with church teaching. At 307 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,479 Speaker 1: least that's the public perspective when you have something like 308 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: this jubilee happening under the you know, under the dome 309 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: of Saint Peter's. 310 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 5: It's scandalous. And again, in the same way that we 311 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 5: talked about the reaction to Charlie Kirk's assassination being perhaps 312 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 5: an impetus for some good, this really puts things on 313 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 5: the table and I'm hoping that people realize and I 314 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 5: hope that that again is realizing you can't just not 315 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 5: pay attention to who's applying to come in and what 316 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 5: they're going to do when they get there. 317 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 2: I want to move on now. 318 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: Before we move on to this China topic, I have 319 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: to mention our sponsor, the folks at Taylor for Gone 320 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 1: Capital Management, Faith, Family and Finances. I want to thank 321 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: them for supporting our Live Prayerful Posse event last week 322 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: in Arizona. Be sure to visit them taylorfregone dot com. 323 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: If you have any investment questions or family financial needs, 324 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: they can help you and you can support our work 325 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 1: by donating at Raymond. 326 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 2: Arroyo dot com. 327 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 1: Father Gordon Chang, I want to move to China and 328 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: foreign policy here. This week announced that Pope Leo has 329 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 1: suppressed two Chinese dioceses is established by Pope Pious the 330 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: Twelfth in the nineteen forties. He also erected a new diocese, 331 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: the Diocese of xiang Gi Kiao. I hope I'm pronouncing 332 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 1: that right. This is a diocese created by the Communist Party, Gordon, 333 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: what does the acquiescence of the Holy See to the 334 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: Chinese government mean in your mind? 335 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 2: What does it indicate? 336 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 6: It means that the Chinese now are not only arrogant, 337 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 6: but they think that they can get their way and 338 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 6: they can force the Church to do what it wants. 339 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 6: You know, there's always been a question of the boundaries 340 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 6: of these dioceses, and Beijing won you know, Pope Leo 341 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 6: gave him what they wanted. And the other thing that 342 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 6: I found really distressing, Raymond, was that there was no 343 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 6: mention in the official announcement of the Bishop Augustine Choi Tai, 344 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 6: who has been detained by Chinese authorities twenty twenty one 345 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 6: and there are reports that he has been forced into 346 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 6: hard labor, so there needs to be an official announcement 347 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 6: of this. The pulpe needs to make sure that he 348 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 6: is freed. And also all the other Catholics and Christians 349 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 6: who have been disappeared and put into these labor camps 350 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 6: for no reason but their faith and Gordon. 351 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 2: This is really tied. We should explain to people. 352 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: And before I get into the nitty gritty of these dioceses, 353 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: there was a China There is a China Vatican Pact 354 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: that was crafted in twenty eighteen by Pope Francis and 355 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: the still sitting amazingly Secretary of State in the Vatican, 356 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: Cardinal Petro Paroline. They crafted this with China and it 357 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: gave the CCP the Chinese authorities say over the selection 358 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: of bishops, if not the approval of them. 359 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 2: Why is that? God? Why is that such a bad idea? 360 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 2: At this point, what have we have they learned? Anything? 361 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 2: Have we learned anything in the ensuing years. 362 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 6: Well, we've learned that the Communist Party failed to honor 363 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 6: it's part of the agreement, which was really one sided 364 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 6: in favor of the party. The other thing we learned 365 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 6: was that the Vatican doesn't learn because that twenty eighteen 366 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 6: agreement has been extended, most recently in October of last year. 367 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 6: And we also learned that the Communist Party now has 368 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 6: extraordinary influence and leverage over the Church. You know, I'm 369 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 6: not a Catholic, but I do go to Catholic services 370 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 6: because my family is. And the one thing that I've 371 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 6: been taught by my wife is that martyrdom is central 372 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 6: to Catholicism. And what this agreement has done, and you 373 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,719 Speaker 6: guys can correct me because you know more about theology 374 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 6: than I ever will, But what this agreement has done 375 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 6: is taken away the possibility of martyrdom from catholic and 376 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 6: that is wrong. No one wants a Catholic to suffer, 377 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 6: or anybody else for that matter. But the point is 378 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 6: that some people need to stand up for their faith 379 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 6: and when they do, this agreement undermines them entirely, and 380 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 6: that's just wrong. 381 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, Father, lean into that. What does it mean? What 382 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: are the importance a of martyrs and b a vibrant 383 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: expression of a faith even in a repressive place like China. 384 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 5: Yes, well, of course, the ancient phrase dating from the 385 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 5: first century is that the blood of the martyrs is 386 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 5: the seed of Christians, and where the church is been 387 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 5: persecuted is where it grows. I mean, that's what happened 388 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 5: in Rome. That's what caused Rome eventually to convert. In 389 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 5: effect on the question of I mean, there's no nothing 390 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 5: stopping people from standing worth as martyrs now. I mean, 391 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 5: you have a Cardinal Zen in Hong Kong. Now. The 392 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 5: only reason he has been martyrs because the Chinese haven't 393 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 5: directly martyred him, you know, but he's certainly there and available. 394 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 5: Jimmy Lai is another one, and they're careless others and 395 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 5: those we don't know about. So let me just back 396 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 5: up for a moment and say that I agree with 397 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 5: everything that Jordan Gordon has said with regard to this agreement, 398 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 5: and it really predates that even to the Pontificate of Benedict, 399 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,959 Speaker 5: where where that Chinese letter, the letter to to China 400 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 5: came out. I remember Zen was very concerned about that, 401 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 5: and again Paolin was involved in the drafting of that, 402 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 5: and I think all of that is the case. But 403 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 5: to go back to what I was saying earlier, we 404 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 5: have to remember the backdrop of this. This is a 405 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 5: new pontificate and the China thing is in normously important 406 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 5: for any number of reasons, not to mention the numbers 407 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 5: of people that are involved. And I think the I 408 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 5: think this realignment of the diocese was along the lines 409 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 5: of the geography that the Communist Party has set up, 410 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 5: you know, the new boundaries of different localities, and so 411 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 5: that the Vatican went along with that. What I don't 412 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 5: think is that the Pope yet has delved into this. 413 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 5: And I can't help but think that this is one 414 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 5: of the first things on his agenda as he's putting 415 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 5: his arms around you know, he's been in audiences constantly, 416 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 5: just had a few weeks in Castel Gandolfo to kind 417 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 5: of look at things. And I don't think he's going 418 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 5: to act dramatically in this. It doesn't seem to be 419 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,439 Speaker 5: his personality. And I think he has that. You remember 420 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 5: the advice that he gave to the bishop and was 421 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 5: Charlotte in South Carolina, and this is Prevost giving the 422 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 5: advice to the bishop going in, don't do anything for 423 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 5: a year, get to know what's going on, and then 424 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 5: make decisions. Because not that the bishop abided by. 425 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 2: Heavy he didn't listen. 426 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 5: No, now he's got a bigger. 427 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: Mess that is insight into how he thinks, and maybe 428 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: he's is a waiting period. 429 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 5: I think so. 430 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 2: Yeah. 431 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: But the problem here is father just to play Devil's 432 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: advocate or maybe angels advocate. The problem is there are 433 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: countless souls being killed in prisons and put under house arrest, 434 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: and we're talking faithful bishops. 435 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 2: Bishop ma. 436 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I could run through the whole line, including 437 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: our friend Jimmy Lai, who I'll get to in a moment, 438 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: But I want to get into the implications of suppressing 439 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 1: these two long standing dioceses and replacing them with the 440 00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: Communist Party creation. For this reason, it's important they suppressed. 441 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 1: In doing so, they blew out the traditional boundaries that 442 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: Pius the twelfth that established. They're not cohering with cities 443 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: as established by the Chinese Communists. But more importantly, they 444 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: have suppressed an underground faithful bishop, and that, it seems 445 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: to me, is a major challenge that you just can't 446 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: sit back and say, I'm going to pray at cost 447 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: of Gondolfo and walk the gardens for a year to 448 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: figure out what I do. Gordon Chang, I'll give you 449 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: the first crack at that, and then I'll go to Father. 450 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,959 Speaker 6: Oh, yeah, that's so critical because there are so many 451 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 6: brave Catholics in China and really the Pope doesn't stand 452 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 6: behind them, and that is a message that is I 453 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 6: think undermines the church. My sense, Raymond, and I don't 454 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 6: know this, but my sense is that you know, you 455 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 6: have the underground Protestant congregations. They have, as the Father said, 456 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 6: they have flourished because of persecution. I think what also 457 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 6: is how happening is that they're getting converts from the 458 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 6: Catholic Church because the church has aligned with the Communist 459 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 6: Party and people understand they cannot pray in the patriotic 460 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 6: Catholic Church because of various reasons. So I worry about that. 461 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 6: I mean, I'm a Protestant, but the point is, yeah, 462 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 6: we shouldn't be seeing an erosion of Catholicism in China 463 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 6: where it is just critical for people to adhere too. 464 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: Father s Rika, why is the Holy See do you 465 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: think so ready to give in to the Communist party? 466 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: And why keep that secret Vatican Chinese deal in place 467 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 1: at all? 468 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 5: Well, again, I think we're talking about a transition here, 469 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 5: and I suppose if you had been elected Pope, we 470 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 5: would have seen a lot more action on this topic, 471 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 5: not help the church. But you know, I'm just thinking myself, 472 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 5: having been a pastor coming into a situation, having to 473 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 5: know all the nuances of the situation, where all the 474 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 5: gears are, and how you move a thing along, and 475 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 5: with the greater worry of splitting the church. You know, 476 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 5: if we move to I'm not talking about just China here, 477 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 5: but if you move too peremptorily, like it's you know, 478 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 5: changing course in a ship. It has to go around 479 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 5: in order to go the other way. It can't just 480 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 5: turn on a dime. And I'd like to have this 481 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 5: conversation here from now and see what has happened. 482 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: Gordon, What do we know about this Chinese deal with 483 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: the Vatican? I mean, I know there's a shroud of silence, 484 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: and I know it's a secret deal. But in the 485 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:50,959 Speaker 1: way it's played out, what do we know? 486 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 6: Well, the way it's played out is that the Communist 487 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 6: Party has violated the terms that we know about in 488 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 6: terms of bishops and the way the faith, what Catholics 489 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 6: can do in China. The Communist Party has basically said 490 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 6: nobody under the age of eighteen, may you know attend 491 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 6: services and all the rest of it, and the Vatican 492 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 6: has agreed to that. So there's a lot, of course 493 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 6: that we don't know. But the point is that the 494 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 6: terms that are public, the Communist Party has openly violated them, 495 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 6: and this is the important point. The Vatican has not complained. 496 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well does it, Father, I'm going to tie 497 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: this in. Does this partially explain the Vatican silence surrounding 498 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: the case of our friend Jimmy Lai. I interviewed Sebastianlie, 499 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: Jimmy Son and Jimmy Lfe. For those of you who 500 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: don't know media Magnet, imagine him as sort of the 501 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: Rupert Murdoch of Hong Kong. He was a media magnet, 502 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: owned a paper, he ran articles that covered the democracy movement, 503 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: and for that he and his staff was arrested in 504 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: the entire operation shutdown. Rather than leave town, get out, 505 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: he's a UK citizen, he stayed there and he's now 506 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: been imprisoned and his trial just ended for allegedly violating. 507 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 2: A national security law. 508 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: Father, your take on the Vatican silence about this very 509 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: big case of not only an outspoken democracy advocate, but 510 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: a renowned Catholic in Hong Kong and China. 511 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 5: Well, let me begin by reminding I don't have to 512 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 5: remind you. You know, I'm heavily invested in this. I 513 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 5: went to Hong Kong a year and a half ago 514 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 5: at some risk, you know, in order to let Jimmy 515 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 5: know that his friends had not abandoned him. I have 516 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 5: been a steady critic in the movie that I produced, 517 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 5: The Hong Konger, and in my writings and in public 518 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 5: statements all that, so you know where I'm at on 519 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 5: this topic. But when you say the silence of the Vatican, 520 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 5: the public silence of the Vatican has been deafening for 521 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 5: the last well since, since the secret deal was done, 522 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 5: I can't help but think. And that's all I can 523 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 5: say right now that there are private, direct cautions being 524 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 5: offered to the Communists about a need for a direction change. 525 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 5: And that's why I say, you know, to speak out 526 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 5: about even Jimmy. I would like to see the pulp 527 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 5: do something, if not say free Jimmy Lye, which of 528 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 5: course I would love to give some indication in that 529 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 5: great Roman manner of his concern, his paternal concern for 530 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 5: the situation. And I wouldn't be surprised if we see 531 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 5: something along those lines we just need. And Gordon, you 532 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 5: would know how to read the subtleties better than I 533 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 5: in this regard. I might know how to do it 534 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 5: from the Roman point of view, but from the Chinese 535 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 5: point of view. You know the delicacy of how she 536 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 5: must think of his dignity and his. 537 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 2: Pride and his stature on the world stage. 538 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: But this is precisely father, why and Gordon you can 539 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: chime in on this. This is precisely why some statement, 540 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: even a nuanced one from Rome, would shine light and 541 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: shame you. 542 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 2: And I was stunned. Gordon. 543 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: I interviewed Sebastian Lie Jimmy Lai's son a few weeks ago, 544 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: and I asked him point blank on air, you can 545 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: look it up. 546 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 2: Has the Vatican reached out to you? 547 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: He ruefully said no, he's had no communications with anyone 548 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: at the Vatican, which I was shocked by, to be honest. 549 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, Well, you know there's a sense and this is 550 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 6: not just the Church, it's you know, government's all over 551 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 6: the place. The only way you can have constructive dialogue 552 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 6: with the Communist Party is behind the scenes, because they 553 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 6: get very upset. Well, the point is, many countries the 554 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 6: Vatican is included, has had these discussions with China and 555 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 6: they have been unsatisfactory. I think what you need to 556 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 6: do is you need to confront the Chinese in public, 557 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 6: because then they really worry and there's a risk in that. 558 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 6: There's no doubt there's a risk in that. But clearly 559 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 6: what people have been doing and what the Vatican has 560 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 6: been doing, just hasn't worked. So people need to try 561 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 6: something new. As I said, no guarantee of success, but 562 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 6: at least it may be successful. 563 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 5: And Gordon, I agree with you. We need to abandon 564 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 5: We need to abandon this Cazaroli form of diplomacy that 565 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 5: failed in Eastern Europe and replace it with a John 566 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 5: Paul the Second style diplomacy that did confront this and 567 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 5: I think that that is absolutely what is needed. 568 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Gordon, Pope Leo and I want to I 569 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 1: want to circle the story here, bring it full circle. 570 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 1: Pope Leo recognized a father Wang xin Gui as the 571 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: new bishop of this diocese that he created. Now, this 572 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: priest is a longtime Chinese apparatic, and according to the 573 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,919 Speaker 1: Pillar and other publications, the Pope did this while suppressing 574 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: an underground bishop. What's the message to the Chinese communists 575 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:35,720 Speaker 1: in this Oh. 576 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 6: It's just from that message is that the Vatican has 577 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 6: surrendered to Sichuan Teng and they're going to just press 578 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 6: the advantage because you don't get anything in return for 579 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 6: something like that. The problem is that they will just 580 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 6: go further and further and until the Vatican stands up 581 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:54,879 Speaker 6: and pushes back. 582 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: Well, Gordon, you see the chatter online. I mean people 583 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: online have whispered to me it's money, that the Chinese 584 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,240 Speaker 1: are giving the Vatican a lot of money. 585 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:02,919 Speaker 2: Do you believe that? 586 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 6: You know? I don't think so. I mean, that would 587 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 6: not be the way the party would operate in this case. 588 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 6: I just don't know. But that strikes me as not 589 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:14,839 Speaker 6: being true. 590 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 5: I haven't heard a thing about that. I haven't heard 591 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 5: a thing about that in Rome, in any of the 592 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 5: circles that that I operate in. And in terms of 593 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 5: these changes and the bishop's appointment, all that was in 594 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 5: the pipeline, A lot of when a lot went into 595 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 5: the negotiation of that, and for that to have been 596 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 5: disrupted would have required a lot of knowledge and understanding 597 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 5: on the part of the Pope to see, if I 598 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 5: do this, what happens this, what happens that before he 599 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 5: has the opportunity to build the entire architecture of whatever 600 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 5: trajectory he is going to initiate. 601 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, this is the danger of course of life 602 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: leaving the same captains in place as you come in 603 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: as commander. I mean, and the Pope has done that. 604 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: He kind of allowed all these people in place, but 605 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: many of these people were the agents of the chaos 606 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: and the difficulty that we're living through, not only Visavi China, 607 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: but Visavi. The liturgy, the marriage, basic doctrine is up 608 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: for grabs. So look, I get it. The Pope has 609 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 1: a lot of fires he needs to put out. But 610 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,800 Speaker 1: if you don't have control of your stations, that's impossible. 611 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: Describe the sunsization process that we've been seeing in Catholic practice, 612 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: Gordon in China. I want to get into this because 613 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: I don't think people understand it's not just appointment of 614 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: bishops or a patriotic church, which is a government subscribed 615 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: and monitored church in the Catholic sense. What have they 616 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 1: done to actually Chinese if you will sionize the content 617 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: of the church, what it's teaching, what's being said. 618 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 6: The images of Jesus have been replaced by images of siege. 619 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:09,319 Speaker 6: Impurn crosses have been taken down, Whole churches have been demolished, 620 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 6: and in terms of doctrine and what is written, it 621 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 6: has been totally changed so that it would be unrecognizable 622 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,839 Speaker 6: to someone who knows the Bible. So basically God has 623 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 6: been taken out of the Bible as the Communist Party 624 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 6: has written it. So it's been a revolution in a 625 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 6: sense where it's become Communism, not Catholicism. 626 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 2: Father Furiko, I think that's true. 627 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I think that's very true. And when I 628 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 5: was in Hong Kong, I spoke to a number of 629 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 5: people who are very concerned about what was going on 630 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 5: in Hong Kong. There's this bringing of the seminarians and 631 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 5: the priests and the nuns from Hong Kong to China 632 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 5: to undergo this kind of sinization. Seminars, so to speak, 633 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 5: even change the text of scripture. So what you're pointing 634 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 5: to here is absolutely right and of great concern. It's 635 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 5: a form of apostasy that's being foist upon the people. 636 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 5: The people I've talked to, however, even if they're somewhat discreet, 637 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,879 Speaker 5: and the entire bulk of the Chinese people. Every now 638 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 5: and then you see interruption and then they retreat. So 639 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 5: this may be a cultural thing that I'm not you know. 640 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 5: You know, in my Italian home, you just have it 641 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,839 Speaker 5: all out just so you're having it out now. But 642 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 5: I sense that the Asian approach is very different. But 643 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 5: it's bubbling. It's obviously bubbling. 644 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: Well, it's I mean, you can't pervert the scriptures. Once 645 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 1: the word of God is corrupted, what's the game. I mean, 646 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,799 Speaker 1: that's the whole game. It's the conveniance of the Word 647 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 1: of God. When that's corrupted and perverted. It seems to 648 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: me your church follows suit pretty quickly. Father, before I 649 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 1: let you all go, what is this of Jimmy? Ly? 650 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: The trial is over. They had this kangaroo trial. The 651 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 1: poor man's been in solitary for years now. He's seventy 652 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:11,880 Speaker 1: seven years old, in not great health. 653 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 5: What do we know, Well, we know that they put 654 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 5: a heart monitor on him. That's why the the not 655 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:25,240 Speaker 5: the sentencing, the closing arguments were close boned two days 656 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 5: in order to fit him with a heart minding device. 657 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:34,320 Speaker 5: I know that he has diabetes and he just looks weakened. 658 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 5: So I mean, this is getting bad. And Sebastian of course, 659 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 5: is indefatigable in his father's defense and has really attracted 660 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:51,959 Speaker 5: a lot of support around the world. And I happen 661 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 5: to know the family is praying. I mean seriously, this 662 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 5: is the real thing, and they understand that it's the 663 00:39:58,600 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 5: real thing. 664 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, Gordon. 665 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 1: Recently, the UK government, you've heard a few little comments 666 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: here and there, but nothing full throated. Jimmy Lai is 667 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: a UK citizen. Where are they on this? I know 668 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,399 Speaker 1: Donald Trump has mentioned that he should be freed. 669 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:19,919 Speaker 6: Yeah, the UK government has from the very beginning has 670 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:24,680 Speaker 6: been very quiet, and only in the last month or 671 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 6: so have you heard anything from the Prime Minister at 672 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 6: Karl Kira Starmer. In contrast, President Trump actually came out 673 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 6: and said we're going to try and free Jimmy Lai 674 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 6: as a part of the trade negotiations. Trump said, we 675 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 6: may not be successful, but we're going to try. And 676 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 6: that's important. That shows the commitment of the United States 677 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:46,760 Speaker 6: to freeing Jimmy. 678 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. 679 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,760 Speaker 1: No, and it's important, and he represents something so important, 680 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: not only culturally, but I think spiritually for very belaguered 681 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,839 Speaker 1: and persecuted people. Well, Father Roberto Rico Gordon chang our 682 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: honorary possible. Thank you both for being here and we 683 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: will leave it there. And if you want more Arroyo 684 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show on 685 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 1: YouTube or a podcast wherever you get yours on behalf 686 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,279 Speaker 1: of our gallivanting posse who's away for the week and 687 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:21,479 Speaker 1: Gordon Chang, Father Robert Serrico. Until the Posse rides again, 688 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:22,839 Speaker 1: Stay the course, follow the light. 689 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 2: I'm raiment Arroyo. We'll see you next time. 690 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,719 Speaker 1: Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and 691 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 1: Divine Providence Studios, and is available on the iHeartRadio, Apple 692 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:45,319 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts