WEBVTT - Patrick Leonard 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:13.360 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to Bob Leftnet's podcast. My guest 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:16.840 today is Patrick Leonard, who has a brand new album. 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.880 It all comes down to move Patrick. Why that title? 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:23.720 Why the title? Let me get this mic a little 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:25.840 bit lower so I can see my face. How are 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:26.680 you doing, Bob. 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:29.080 I'm doing pretty well. Good to talk to you. 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:31.160 I haven't seen you in a long time. Last time 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:36.240 we were outside the hotel cafe exactly, good men, Los Angeles. Yeah, 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.280 it was a good night. It was fun. Why the title? 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:45.240 The hotel cafe was Leonard Cohen's son Adam was playing 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:50.159 exactly and I was there with Leonard. And the title 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:53.960 of the record is something that Leonard said to me 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:56.319 when we first met, and it's from a song that's 0:00:56.360 --> 0:01:03.400 really about little anecdotal leonardisms. And we were talking on 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:05.200 a very first meeting and he said, you know what 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:07.080 it's all about, And I said what he said, mood? 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:10.080 He said, your good mood, good life, bad mood, bad 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:13.640 life is really that simple and uh, and it really 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:15.960 stuck and I really saw him kind of live that 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:18.080 as the philosophy of like you just got to be 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:19.560 in a good mood if you want to be it 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:22.680 to be okay, and as silly as it sounds, it 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:27.920 resonates with me. So the song is called It's All 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:29.600 come down. The song is called at the end of 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:31.960 the Day, and the line is at the end of 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:34.559 the day, it all comes down to mood. So that's 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:36.600 that's what it is. It's something Leonard said to me. 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:40.720 Well, I was thinking also a different interpretation of the 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:44.360 mood of the music. Am I totally out of space here? 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:46.399 Is there a factor that I would say? I'd say 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:50.040 outer space isn't good? That's about right? Yeah, No, you 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:53.800 know the that's a nice interpretation. I hadn't thought of that, 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:56.320 and I like that one because it's a there's a 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:59.480 lot of moods in there, that's for sure. Tell me 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:01.920 about the issue the album, why'd you decide to do it? 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:05.640 Well, I suppose we need to tell the truth. 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:07.120 Here, right, absolutely. 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.720 So, my wife and I had relocated to the East 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.840 Coast where we are now. We're in Connecticut on a farm, 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:17.480 and at that time I've been doing some work with 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:22.160 Roger Waters on a solo project, and then he at 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:25.520 one point said, we're going to put that on hold 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:27.720 because I want to redo Dark Side of the Moon. 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:31.160 So I started working on that with him and worked 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:34.280 for a couple of months on it, and then I 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.480 then it was time to kind of get his band involved, 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:39.880 and I didn't feel like I wanted to do that 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:43.320 for some reason, so I backed out. And I you know, 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:47.680 he's I'm sure furiously pissed at me, but you know 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:54.120 that's what I did. And then, ironically and completely coincidentally, 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:58.840 at that same time, his ex bandmate Gilmore called me. 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:01.080 David called me and said, I want to make a 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:02.880 solo record. This is true. You know you can't make 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.040 this shit up. And he said I want to make 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:08.560 a solo record, and I said okay, and he started 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:10.680 sending me music and I started working on it and 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.880 sending him back and after a while, I felt like 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:17.040 I can't really help him. You know, this isn't working, 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:18.600 so I quit doing that too. 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:21.240 Well, okay, let's get a touch, let's get a time 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:24.880 right here. What year were you originally starting with Roger 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:26.680 Waters on this project. 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:31.000 On I would say probably Roger and I started in 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:32.000 twenty twenty. 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:35.120 One, Okay, so it's during COVID. 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.760 Yeah, exactly during COVID, And at the time I was 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:40.640 living in LA when we started. 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:44.000 And you abandoned that project because you didn't want to 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:44.920 go on the road. 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:48.000 No, it wasn't the road it was. It was it 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:51.560 was the dark Side project that Roger did, and I 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:54.160 think he did a lovely job on it. But it 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.680 came to this time when it was I was going 0:03:57.720 --> 0:03:59.960 to just we were going to bring his band into 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:04.440 start doing this, and I felt like I didn't. I 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:06.720 didn't really feel that I didn't. It's not how I 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:09.040 wanted to do it, and it wasn't my record, and 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:11.760 it wasn't my project. It was his. But I think 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:16.159 it was partly Bob because after Leonard passed away and 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:17.680 people would say, what are you going to do? I 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:20.279 would my stock answer was I'm pretty sure Leonard Cohen's 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.200 the last house on the block in terms of collaborations, 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:26.840 and I really felt that I really did so, And 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.000 to this day, I have yet to write a song 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:31.800 with anyone else, you know, since twenty sixteen, and I 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:35.160 probably I might, but I don't see why I would. 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:39.520 And so this idea of working on things as a 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:43.080 producer and an arranger and a keyboard player and contributing 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.760 to other people's work, I really felt like it was 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.599 behind me, but hard to say no to, you know, Roger, 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:50.159 and hard to say no to David. 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:53.280 Okay, wait, wait, let's stop with David. What was your 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:55.640 history with David such as David knew. 0:04:55.520 --> 0:05:00.000 You when I was when I made a Brian Ferry 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:04.200 record called Bete Noir, I think around nineteen eighty five 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:08.000 eighty six, something like that, And while we were doing it, 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:11.920 there was a song called Limbo that I had written 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:14.560 with Brian, and I said it would be great to 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:17.000 get Gilmour on this. It just felt like he would 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:19.279 be great on it, and Brian said, well, let me 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:21.680 call him. And the other thing is Guy Pratt was 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:25.640 playing bass on Brian's album, so there was easy ways 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:29.640 to get to David. And so the next thing we 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:34.640 found ourselves in England recording David's some guitars of David 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:37.440 on a couple songs, and then after a couple of days, 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:41.040 David invited me to lunch at his house and after 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:43.440 lunch we went to the boat where a studio was 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:48.479 and he had a dad player or a cassette player 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:50.919 or something and there was a little synthesizer and I 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:54.320 think he played bass and we just jammed for a 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:58.560 little while you know, and I think it all got recorded. 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:00.600 I didn't even realize it was being recorded, but we 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:04.520 were just jamming. And then sometime later, and I can't 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:08.080 remember exactly the timeline, I get a call and it's 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:10.680 David and he said, I'm in la and we're finishing 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:13.040 up the new record, which was Momentary Lapse of Reason, 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:14.560 and would you like to come up to the house 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:16.279 and hear where we are? And I said, of course. 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:18.600 So I come up and I'm sitting in this house 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.960 and listening to this playback and the song goes by 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:23.520 it and he says, do you recognize that? And I 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:25.800 said no, and he said, well, you wrote it. So 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:28.440 what he had done is he had taken this thing 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:31.440 that we did and made made a song out of it. 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:36.880 And so and then and then at that point he 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:39.479 would come to the house with you know, multi track 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:43.320 tapes and I put some synthesizers on some other songs 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:45.719 on the record, and so, you know, we kind of 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:50.200 kept we kept in touch after that, you know what, 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:54.000 in little ways, you know. And and then in fact, 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:58.280 the years later that I was working with Roger on 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:01.600 Amused to Death in and we were in England and 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:04.559 I was going out to you know, to see David, 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:06.479 or going to dinner or something just to see David, 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:07.880 or meeting him at a bar or go to his 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.680 house or whatever. Roger say, you know, go ahead, but 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:12.200 I don't want to hear about it. It was like, 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:16.080 you know, this weird tense thing. But anyway, that's how 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.760 that came about. And I think part of why the 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:23.720 relationship stayed as long as it has is, you know, guy, 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:25.960 we have Guy Pratt in common who's one of my 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:29.360 favorite bass players, and he's on Toy Mattnee and third 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:31.360 Matt Nane and like a prayer, it's all Guy Pratt, 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:31.640 you know. 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:36.440 Right, Okay, So David says he wants to collaborate, you're 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:40.400 working on the tracks. What makes you decide this isn't 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:40.960 going to work? 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:47.840 Well? I think what in reality that you know, the 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:52.280 simple thing of it was that if somebody sends me 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:55.200 something and I listened to it, and I feel like 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:58.640 I can make it better, and this is the contribution 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:00.880 that I think I can make that will make it better, 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:07.960 and I make those contributions and it doesn't resonate, you know, 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:11.280 you don't. It's far from taking any of it personally. 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:12.800 It's like you can do a few of those and 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:15.080 then go, I'm not the guy who can help you. 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:17.760 You're looking for some other help. This is the help 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:18.720 that I know how to give. 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:19.480 You. 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:22.400 Know. I can take your progression that you sent me, 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:24.800 or your track that you sent me, and I can 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.080 do some edits on it, and I can rework it, 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:29.920 and I can add the section that I think it adds, 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.800 and I can do some things to the chord progressions 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:37.440 to broaden them in certain places, just things that my 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.480 ears and my musical gut tells me I need to do. 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:43.800 And it wasn't what he wanted, and so it was 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:45.840 like it was really simple. It's like, I just don't 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:46.839 think I can help on this. 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:51.360 You know. Okay, you did it and it was working 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:55.360 for you, but not working for him. That's right, that's fair. Okay, 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:58.000 let's go back another step. Tell me about leaving La 0:08:58.120 --> 0:08:58.920 for Connecticut. 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:05.199 Well, I think, like I said earlier, after after Leonard passed, 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.719 and even before Leonard passed, I wasn't working in LA 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:10.680 the way I used to work in LA because the 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:14.320 business had changed so much and it wasn't very it 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.520 wasn't as attractive to me as it a. 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:22.880 Little bit slower. Is that because opportunities were not well 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:26.760 put it bluntly had dried up? Or was it because 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:30.199 everybody was recording it home and people weren't using extra people. 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:31.320 What exactly change? 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:37.240 Well, I think everybody kind of well people in the 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.000 music business know what changed, but everyone has their own 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:45.360 personalized experience of what, you know, their version is. I 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:51.160 think for me, it was mostly about a lack of collaborators, 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:54.200 people that I wanted to work with, so I'd get 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:57.760 something would come up and it would be you know, 0:09:57.800 --> 0:09:59.480 like I think one of the last records that I 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:03.079 did that I felt had any real purpose and meaning 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:05.680 and was good was a solo record that Pat Monaghan 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:08.480 did that he and I co wrote and I produced, 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:13.440 of Train Yeah, of Train Right. And it was a 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:17.400 tremendous record, and no one ever heard it because you know, 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:19.960 in the music business, the guy who's in a popular 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.200 band does a solo album, his record company and his 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:25.360 manager go, no one's ever going to know about this, 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.079 you know, it's kind of an unwritten law. So that happened, 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:31.600 and after that there was some things that would come, 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:34.640 you know, and even well known artists, you know, and 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:38.840 I just thought, no I'm not feeling this anymore. And 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:42.440 then Leonard came along and we spent those years together 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:46.240 and it was just you know, fun and a great 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:50.680 experience and learning experience, and for excuse me, for obvious reasons, 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:54.960 and and then after that, I didn't. I just wasn't 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:56.280 feeling it, you know, I really wasn't. 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:01.280 Okay, let's go back to something you said earlier. After Leonard, 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:03.600 you reached a point where you felt you no longer 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:06.120 wanted to collaborate. Tell me about that. 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:13.240 Well, the thing of you know, creating music with an 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:18.800 artist who's the lyricist is primarily what I did, you know, 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:24.960 my in my career, with exceptions, a couple exceptions. And 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.640 the exceptions were because I thought this would be fun 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:29.360 just to be in a room while this happens, like 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.080 Elton or Roger or you know, like I don't need 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:33.400 to write any of this. I just want to be 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:42.360 in the room helping if I can. And so I think, uh, 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:47.240 I think it just it just didn't interest me anymore, 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:47.680 you know. 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:55.400 Okay, So would there be any situation, hypothetically where a 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:58.160 collaboration would look good again to you? I'm not talking 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:01.360 about changing your mind in the future everybody to change, 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:04.840 But is there any way it could be constructed, whether 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.600 you have input on the lyrics or something, or have 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:09.400 you pretty much been there, done that. 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:16.800 There's a couple of ways for me to look at that, 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:20.679 you know. One is that I do have interest in 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:24.160 doing other projects, but not necessarily record projects, and not 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:31.560 necessarily with a singer songwriter or another musician. The thing 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.480 of what I'm doing and what I've been focused on, 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:39.400 and how terribly satisfying I find it, is that this 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:42.520 is the first time I've ever done anything like what 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:46.600 I'm doing now where I didn't have to negotiate anything, 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:51.280 and that has shown me something that I like. I 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:55.439 like what I see when I'm not compromising anything, because 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:57.480 every record you make with another person in the room, 0:12:57.520 --> 0:12:59.439 you compromise, and if there's five people in there is 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:04.920 five compromise. And I find that this feels more direct 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.040 and more focused, and also gives me something more to 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:10.400 build on as I'm doing more, you know, as I'm 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:12.760 writing more songs and doing more coming up with more 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:14.360 ideas and where I want to go and what i 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:19.240 want to do, I've found a little bit of a 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:23.960 path that feels good even in its you know, solo 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.920 aspect and it's you know, lonely aspect. 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:30.320 Okay, let's close a gap. I interrupted. You tell me 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:33.640 again about moving to Connecticut. 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:39.800 We were in La Covid hit we moved to the 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:42.600 house in Michigan. We have a house in the Upper Peninsula, 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.440 Michigan that's an old family house that you know, has 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:47.880 been there for a long time, and we sat out 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:50.440 Covid there and then we really started talking about the 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:55.280 idea of maybe changing coasts, you know, just to do it. 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.320 And that also, you know, I'd been in La a 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:04.280 long time and really kind of you know, like you said, Ben, 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:06.600 they've done that. I felt like there wasn't anything that 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:08.480 was going to happen there that was going to surprise me. 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:13.640 And so we were looking in upstate New York and 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.120 we actually ended up here just because at the time 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:19.480 it was close to the Long Island Sound and Rogers 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:22.360 over there, and we have a little airplane that my 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:24.880 wife can fly, and so we were just gonna have 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:28.400 it be convenient for that and and that's really what 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:30.000 brought us where we are right here. 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:41.560 Okay, I don't want your address, but I'm from Connecticut myself. 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:43.520 What town do you presently live in. 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:47.000 We live in Killingworth and it is it is nowhere, 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:47.880 but it's great. 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:50.920 What's the next recognizable town. 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:56.160 Well, we're between Hartford and New Haven. Okay, if you 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.320 just go a line right up, we're right. We're somewhere 0:14:58.360 --> 0:14:59.560 right in the middle off to. 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:03.280 The okay west little but you can see Long Island 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:04.480 Sound from where you are. 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:06.600 Well, no, but we, like I said, we have a 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:10.160 little airplane that we keep about nine miles from here, 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:13.040 and my wife is a pilot, and we take off 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.520 and one minute you're looking at the sound and in 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:18.720 ten minutes you're having lunch there. So that's the beauty 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:19.760 of what we have. 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:22.840 Okay, how long has your wife been a pilot? 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:25.520 Going on twenty years? 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.960 And this was before or after she met you. She 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:31.760 started before and do you know what motivated her. 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:35.880 She was on a ranch in northern California and they 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:37.720 had a little airplane and somebody stuck her in it 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:39.600 and said you turn this and you pull this and 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.440 it goes up, and she's you know, she learned to 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:46.880 fly and now she's quite a serious pilot. So yeah, 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:50.960 and it's a freedom, you know, we can go to 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:52.520 Boston for lunch, dixs an hour. 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:55.680 And how big a plane do you own? 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:57.640 It's just a force eater. 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:02.920 And one engine, two engines, one engine. Is she instrument rated? 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:05.640 She is and commercial rated. 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.560 Do you ever get scared in the air with her? 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:11.960 No? No? 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:15.640 What about if there's weather? Certainly living on the East Coast, 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.240 is that a more of a judgment whether to go 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:19.480 up or not? It is? 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:22.720 It is, yeah, And that's what separates the men from 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:25.600 the boys right there. If you know, if you're going 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:27.160 to go, you better know you can make it. 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:30.920 And how often does she go up in the plane? 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:35.160 A lot? A lot? I mean right now we're going 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:37.560 down to North Carolina and a little bit for her 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.520 to work with her teacher down there, and so she's 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.720 been flying some mad maneuvers, you know, and she couldn't 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.560 today because of the clouds, but you know, she she's 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:48.720 I mean, we won't go to breakfast in Poughkeepsie two 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:49.240 days ago. 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:49.560 You know. 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:53.680 It's that it's good fun. I'm really spoilt. 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:57.480 Okay, So if you you do have the access to 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:02.200 the plane, but you can certainly get to Boston. But 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.399 in terms of the epicenter of the culture in that area, 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:09.840 it's really New York and you're like maybe an hour 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:12.520 and a half a little bit longer from New York. 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:14.879 Do you care whatsoever? 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.280 No, Well, we're you know what we've done when we 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:20.000 needed to go into the city, or we wanted to 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:23.000 go into the city as we flying to Teeterborough, right 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:26.120 and forty five minutes where a Teeterborough And twenty minutes 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:29.400 later we're in town. And for even in New York 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:30.040 or that's quick. 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:32.560 And how often would you go to the city. 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:35.320 You know, we we've done it a half a dozen times, 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:41.119 you know, for various reasons. And I had some a 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.240 little thing I did for CNN a few months ago 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:47.800 regarding a Madonna thing, and we drove and once we drove, 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.399 we said we should have you know, it would have 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:51.720 been so much easier to fly. 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:58.000 Okay, you're living in Killingworth, do you know anybody there? 0:17:58.640 --> 0:17:59.879 Well? Now we do, we do. 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:00.239 Now. 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.800 I mean we've been here three years and so we've 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:05.159 made some friends, and we found some restaurants, and we 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.879 got a good tailor and you know, yeah, even a 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:10.280 good sushi bar. We're good. 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:13.040 If I drop you anywhere, are you going to make 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:14.679 friends or is that your wife? 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:18.560 Well, it's it's kind of neither of us. I think 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.879 that what we have here, what really spawned a lot 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:25.639 of this is just the airport. So because we're at 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:29.320 a little airport, and little airports are like little campuses, 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:32.480 and so you immediately meet people who you have something 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:36.439 in common with, you know, and pilots do less drugs 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:38.760 than musicians, so you know, the reason to get to know. 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:43.359 So what kind of people hang out at the airports pilots? 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:47.160 I have realized that do they tend to be flying 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:51.920 fanatics or wealthy people or what kind of interest in 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:54.320 what kind of socioeconomic status are these people. 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:57.439 We're at a small airport and the runway is not 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:01.360 long enough to land a jet, so the the extreme 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:04.080 wealth is not there, which is you know, I think 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:06.240 it's nice because it's just people that love to fly, 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:10.200 and they you know, they go from twenty to eighty, 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:14.600 you know, in age. They're all over the place. And 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:16.959 so we've you know, when we got here, we started 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:18.920 having some parties and we would just get a list 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:21.480 of people from the airport and invite them to the house. 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:24.239 And now we have, you know, people to hang out with. 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:27.800 That's very interesting. Now, did you sell your house in 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:32.000 Los Angeles. Yes, so presently you just have the family 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:35.400 place in Michigan on the up and the place in Connecticut. 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:38.000 Yeah, and we have a condo in Valencia as well. 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:44.359 Okay, so you're now living not completely in the Boonies, 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:50.720 but not directly in the city. In terms of musical collaboration, 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:53.600 you want somebody to play on your with on a record, 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:57.560 I realize you're now in control. Is everything done digitally? 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:00.560 It doesn't matter where you are or did you ever 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:04.119 want to have people in your studio? Well, the. 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:12.080 Like this record Like Mood, some people came here and 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:14.520 some people worked remotely. And it was still during COVID, 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:20.199 so you know, we still had that factor. But the 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:23.399 musicians that were in New York were close by. Like 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.160 Tony Levin is in Is. He's upstate and he came 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:28.600 and a couple of times we flew to him because 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:31.680 that was really easy. We just fly to Kingston. Jerry 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:37.040 Leonard came here. Kevin who engineered and mixed, he was 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:38.840 you know, he could come here because he's from the city, 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:40.439 and we have a guest house and we have a 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:43.119 guest room, and so we were able to accommodate people 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:49.119 that way. John Pettitucci came here and the rest was 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:52.199 done remotely just because it was COVID time. You know, 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:56.800 the idea of having musicians here is really something I 0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:59.439 will do in the future. And the building that I'm in, 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:02.520 that's the student radio, can accommodate. You know. We can 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:04.760 set up a band in here with a little bit 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:08.600 of adjustment, and I would love to do that, and 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:12.679 I think the on next record I'll do that. I 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:16.280 will have at least a small rhythm section and record 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:21.000 it to record together. You know, on this record it 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:21.720 wasn't done like that. 0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:26.560 So tell me about the status quality size of your studio. 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:30.840 Well, it's the room I'm in right now has ten 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:35.040 foot ceilings and it's twenty by thirty five. And there's 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:37.280 another room on the other side of this with double 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:40.680 doors that's the same size with higher ceilings. And so 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:44.080 this is the studio where in this room I have 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:47.360 all my keyboards and my concert grant and my spinnet 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:49.120 and my B three and all that stuff is here. 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:51.320 And the next room would be the tracking room and 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:54.440 will be the tracking room. But we didn't track anything here. 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:57.920 And the physical building existed when you bought it, or 0:21:57.920 --> 0:21:58.520 do you build it. 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:02.040 No, it was here. It was here. It was a workshop. 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:04.760 And you talked about the engineer on your record. But 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:07.520 to what degree are you an engineer or techi yourself? 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:13.560 Well, uh, once you're kind of set up, you know, 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:15.280 I have I have a lot of great pre amps 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:17.760 and a lot of great microphones. And once you're set up, 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:19.760 it's just a matter of pressing record and making sure 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:23.720 it's not too hot, and in terms of being able 0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:26.240 to balance things, and you know that the idea of 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:28.600 mixing a record. I can mix a record, you know, 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:33.800 but I'm fairly independent. I can I can do this 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:36.960 by myself, except for you know, playing the drums and 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:43.359 the bass and the guitars. I'm fairly I'm good, you know. 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.200 Okay, let's go back. You wake up and you realize 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:49.320 LA is not working for you. At what point in 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:51.919 this process do you say, I want to make my 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:52.560 own record. 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:56.800 Well, that's what That's what occurred after I realized I 0:22:56.840 --> 0:22:59.639 really didn't want to make any other, anybody else's record. 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:01.840 And at first, when I looked at it, I thought, well, 0:23:01.840 --> 0:23:03.399 I've got a bunch of stuff. Let me listen to 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:05.840 what I have. Look at what I have, and it 0:23:05.960 --> 0:23:08.520 just didn't feel like it was the beginning of any 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:13.399 kind of artistic you know piece. So I just started 0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:18.680 from scratch. I just started writing songs and and that's 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:22.280 really just what happened, you know. And from there, as 0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:26.720 soon as I had demos, I found the right drummer 0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:29.800 to do what needed to be done, and Kevin came in, 0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:32.600 and you know, I had Patti John Pattatucci's an old 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:35.640 friend from New York and he knew Tony and Jerry 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:37.880 Leonard played guitar. He's an old friend from New York 0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:40.199 and Kevin new him as well. So you know, that 0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:44.600 part came together pretty quick. And my old guitar people 0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:50.720 from l A. Wendy Melvoy and Tim Pearce and James Harrah, 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:53.959 you know who. I've worked with all of them for 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:58.199 three four decades. They're all on it. And then and 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:01.800 then the the guest guitar players Martin Barr on one song. 0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:03.399 Now, how do you know Martin Barr? 0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:05.520 I don't. It was a cold call. 0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:09.119 It was a cold call, okay, let's be very specific, 0:24:09.520 --> 0:24:12.360 call or email. 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:15.959 I don't remember who made the introduction. 0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:18.560 But okay, so there was a mutual. 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:22.920 Friend somebody, somebody found something. Yeah, somebody knew a way 0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:24.639 to get a way to eat mail. I think it 0:24:24.760 --> 0:24:26.960 was I have to think about this, but I think 0:24:27.000 --> 0:24:29.240 somebody got me an email address, and I just emailed 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:31.080 and went, here's what here is who I am, Here's 0:24:31.080 --> 0:24:35.399 what I'm doing. Would you be interested? And and he 0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:37.320 said he would be interested. And I sent him the 0:24:37.359 --> 0:24:40.040 song which is the song sad ass World on the record, 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:43.080 that's Martin and he killed it. 0:24:44.800 --> 0:24:49.280 In the email. How much did you reference him his 0:24:49.400 --> 0:24:52.320 work in? Jeff wrote tolls. Were you a fanboy to 0:24:52.359 --> 0:24:55.119 a certain degree or were you bore? Like I'm Patrick Leonard. 0:24:55.119 --> 0:24:55.840 You know who I am? 0:24:56.280 --> 0:25:00.159 No, no, no, no, I mean I don't. I don't 0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:02.400 remember if we even got into that sort of conversation. 0:25:02.480 --> 0:25:04.960 But the truth is, between me and you, there was 0:25:05.000 --> 0:25:07.600 no band for me better than Jethro Toll in the 0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:11.080 mid seventies, you know, from like seventy three to seventy six. 0:25:11.160 --> 0:25:11.680 Forget it. 0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:16.719 Okay, okay, big kady. These might be two different things, 0:25:17.400 --> 0:25:20.600 but we'll talk best and favorite. What is the best 0:25:20.720 --> 0:25:21.560 Jethro Toll? 0:25:21.600 --> 0:25:28.600 Well, I would say thick as a brick, and I 0:25:28.600 --> 0:25:31.040 would say the second best, which Ian Anderson hates his 0:25:31.160 --> 0:25:33.720 Passion Play just because the second side of Passion Play 0:25:33.760 --> 0:25:36.679 is some of the most spectacular playing and arranging that 0:25:36.760 --> 0:25:38.280 I think it must ever put on vinyl. 0:25:39.280 --> 0:25:42.040 Okay, I love Thick as a brick, But tell me 0:25:42.320 --> 0:25:43.640 why you think it's number one. 0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:49.199 I think it's because of how old I was and 0:25:49.240 --> 0:25:53.760 seeing it performed four times and seeing comparing it, you know, 0:25:53.840 --> 0:25:56.119 to what I just seen the night before or the 0:25:56.160 --> 0:25:58.680 week before, because in those days, it was concerts every 0:25:58.680 --> 0:26:01.480 week everybody, you know, and we'd go and go and 0:26:01.520 --> 0:26:06.720 go and go, and that was just was that was unreal, unreal. 0:26:07.119 --> 0:26:10.359 Okay, you talk about starting becoming a fan in seventy three, 0:26:11.200 --> 0:26:16.200 If you talk Jethro Tull, you have a bifurcation between 0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:21.960 the this was people and everybody else. Right, So, Mick abrahams, 0:26:22.160 --> 0:26:24.840 although does that mean anything to you or that's just 0:26:24.920 --> 0:26:25.600 its old thing? 0:26:26.040 --> 0:26:30.800 Well, I was because I played in bands with people 0:26:31.240 --> 0:26:33.359 a lot older than me. When I was a kid 0:26:33.400 --> 0:26:37.320 in Chicago at twelve, I went to the Kinetic Playground 0:26:37.400 --> 0:26:40.320 and saw the first Zeppelin shows and the first Toll 0:26:40.400 --> 0:26:43.840 shows ever that anybody saw in America. And I saw 0:26:43.880 --> 0:26:45.959 him at the same time, you know, that night at 0:26:45.960 --> 0:26:48.399 the Kinetic where you know, it's a famous night. I 0:26:48.440 --> 0:26:50.679 was there. I was twelve years old. Somebody's mother had 0:26:50.680 --> 0:26:51.320 to drive us. 0:26:51.280 --> 0:26:51.479 You know. 0:26:53.560 --> 0:26:59.720 So the the obsession possession, you know, laying on the 0:26:59.800 --> 0:27:01.840 floor or with the headphones on a little bit stoned 0:27:01.920 --> 0:27:05.639 listening to vinyls at nauseum was kind of that was 0:27:05.680 --> 0:27:10.920 my life, you know, from very young until I went 0:27:10.960 --> 0:27:13.040 on the road at sixteen years old with show bands, 0:27:13.040 --> 0:27:16.000 you know, to buy, make money to buy keep Let's. 0:27:15.840 --> 0:27:20.119 Stay, Let's stay with Tall. Okay, I dropped out at 0:27:20.160 --> 0:27:24.320 a certain point. You still interested in what Ian does? 0:27:27.359 --> 0:27:30.080 I'm not And I try to listen, and I really do. 0:27:30.200 --> 0:27:31.960 And Ian's on the album as well, by the way, 0:27:32.000 --> 0:27:34.840 he's playing flute on Bishops of Fright, and he doesn't 0:27:34.880 --> 0:27:37.919 know Martin's on the record. They'll they'll find out, you know, 0:27:37.960 --> 0:27:41.920 that they just made an album together. But and those 0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:43.560 are the two guests, those are my two guests. And 0:27:43.560 --> 0:27:46.400 that's who I wanted. I wanted I wanted Tall because 0:27:46.600 --> 0:27:50.800 to me, that's what motivated me more than anything to 0:27:50.880 --> 0:27:54.240 try to create something unique. Was Tall more than Yes, 0:27:54.280 --> 0:27:58.280 more than Elp, more than Crimson, more than Floyd. I mean, 0:27:58.320 --> 0:28:01.200 this was this was my you know, I'm that age. 0:28:01.680 --> 0:28:03.000 This was the sauce, you know. 0:28:03.040 --> 0:28:05.399 Okay, let's go back to that famous night at the 0:28:05.480 --> 0:28:09.000 Kinetic Playground. Did you go to see Tall? 0:28:10.040 --> 0:28:11.639 No, we went to see Zeppelin. We didn't even know 0:28:11.680 --> 0:28:14.359 till we're playing. I mean we heard their name on 0:28:14.400 --> 0:28:17.840 the bill, but I didn't know who they were yet. 0:28:18.200 --> 0:28:23.760 Okay, this was sixty nine, sixty eight, sixty sixty eight. No, 0:28:23.960 --> 0:28:25.840 if it was Zeppelin had to be sixty to nine. 0:28:26.119 --> 0:28:29.360 But in any event, having seen Zepplin a few times, 0:28:29.640 --> 0:28:31.120 how were Zeppelin that night? 0:28:32.760 --> 0:28:34.960 I think they were extraordinary because it was all new 0:28:35.000 --> 0:28:40.440 and raw. And what I remember is Aaron what's his name? 0:28:40.480 --> 0:28:40.560 He? 0:28:40.840 --> 0:28:42.320 I think he ended up producing films. 0:28:42.320 --> 0:28:43.120 Oh, Aaron Russo. 0:28:43.600 --> 0:28:45.600 Aaron Russo. It was his place. It was called Aaron 0:28:45.680 --> 0:28:50.480 Russo's Kinetic Playground, And there was the litter, Savoy Brown, 0:28:50.600 --> 0:28:54.200 Jethra Tol and Zeppelin, and Zeppelin came out and played 0:28:54.840 --> 0:28:57.640 a set, and then I think Tall played a set, 0:28:57.720 --> 0:29:01.240 and then Zeppelin came back and Robert Planter, Jimmy Pager, 0:29:01.360 --> 0:29:04.840 one of them said, you know, Aaron Russo just said 0:29:04.840 --> 0:29:07.520 we can play do we drop? And I think it 0:29:07.600 --> 0:29:09.240 was two in the morning or three in the morning, 0:29:09.240 --> 0:29:11.320 that somebody's calling somebody's mom to see you can come 0:29:11.320 --> 0:29:15.280 get us now, you know, for real, And so I 0:29:15.320 --> 0:29:18.160 think it was that religious experience thing, you know, of 0:29:18.200 --> 0:29:22.440 this thing that you've never seen anything like it in 0:29:22.480 --> 0:29:25.320 a little tiny place for hours and hours and hours. 0:29:25.400 --> 0:29:29.280 You know that said, I remember Tall more than I 0:29:29.320 --> 0:29:30.680 remember zeb them from that night. 0:29:37.960 --> 0:29:40.960 Okay, you had never heard Tall when you saw that show. 0:29:41.320 --> 0:29:44.320 I think somebody had played me boret and I think 0:29:44.400 --> 0:29:46.240 they were it was the stand Up. It was right 0:29:46.320 --> 0:29:48.680 at stand Up because this was tour. They didn't tour, 0:29:49.080 --> 0:29:50.280 so I think it was Martin. 0:29:51.280 --> 0:29:55.560 I personally think this stand Up is the best album. 0:29:55.720 --> 0:29:58.959 And I certainly remember when the Inside stuffed and another 0:29:59.000 --> 0:30:01.920 one I love, which was, you know, really slagged at 0:30:01.920 --> 0:30:03.720 the time. I'm a big fan of Benefit. 0:30:04.400 --> 0:30:06.480 I'm a huge those were it. You know, I always 0:30:06.520 --> 0:30:10.320 say everybody has their three, so I sort of go, well, 0:30:10.360 --> 0:30:13.000 it's it's stand up, Benefit and thick as a brick 0:30:13.200 --> 0:30:16.120 would be my three. But then Passion plays in there 0:30:16.120 --> 0:30:17.880 for numerous reasons, and then there's no more. 0:30:19.360 --> 0:30:22.400 Well, you know the album on Chris Liss that he 0:30:22.560 --> 0:30:26.280 did where they did all the research to decide what 0:30:26.440 --> 0:30:29.880 people liked with Farm on the Freeway whatever. I thought 0:30:29.920 --> 0:30:31.600 that was a good album. You know, that was a 0:30:31.600 --> 0:30:33.840 famous album where he won Metal Album of the Year, 0:30:33.880 --> 0:30:36.960 but that's not his fault. But I thought that was 0:30:36.960 --> 0:30:37.920 a return to four. 0:30:39.160 --> 0:30:42.760 Yeah. Well, you know I wasn't. I wasn't listening anymore. 0:30:43.200 --> 0:30:46.080 Okay, So you were a big brog rock guy. 0:30:46.880 --> 0:30:49.560 Big. So if Channel Giant was really the you know 0:30:49.640 --> 0:30:50.240 that was I was. 0:30:50.280 --> 0:30:50.560 Okay. 0:30:50.880 --> 0:30:53.040 I scared many a teenager out of my house with 0:30:53.120 --> 0:30:55.600 Channel Giant. You know, I said, you gotta hear this, 0:30:55.640 --> 0:30:57.600 and they go, what are you listening to? This is nothing? 0:30:57.960 --> 0:31:02.520 I mean, I'm good friends, Eric Schulman. But General Giant 0:31:02.680 --> 0:31:09.320 never really broke in America. How did you know General Giant. 0:31:09.360 --> 0:31:13.960 From seeing them open for Tall? They opened for Toll 0:31:14.040 --> 0:31:15.760 and I bought the first record, and I have every 0:31:15.800 --> 0:31:18.360 other record since I have them all finals. You know, 0:31:20.120 --> 0:31:22.120 you're just exposing me completely here. 0:31:23.000 --> 0:31:25.640 If we have a hierarchy of Prague, although I would 0:31:25.680 --> 0:31:28.760 not call Jethro Toll Prague, but I don't want to quibble. 0:31:29.240 --> 0:31:32.240 Paul is at the top, then General Giant, who comes 0:31:32.280 --> 0:31:32.680 after that? 0:31:38.120 --> 0:31:39.480 We're talking about that era? 0:31:39.800 --> 0:31:41.920 Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, if there's somebody from a 0:31:42.000 --> 0:31:43.720 later era you want to put in, that's fine. 0:31:43.880 --> 0:31:46.000 No, I would I would say that. I would say 0:31:46.000 --> 0:31:51.240 that Toll ruled it, and Giant was something that I loved, 0:31:51.280 --> 0:31:53.200 but they weren't the same kind of live band that 0:31:53.280 --> 0:31:58.800 Tull was, and they're kind of it's it sounds weird, 0:31:58.800 --> 0:32:01.000 but there kind of almost wasn't to anybody else. The 0:32:01.360 --> 0:32:06.240 Floyd shows at the Auditorium Theater before Dark Side came out, 0:32:06.280 --> 0:32:08.840 which I saw them a couple of times there, those 0:32:08.920 --> 0:32:11.600 were things that were life changing. And then I saw 0:32:11.640 --> 0:32:14.120 them do Dark Side at the Chicago Stadium and Rogers 0:32:14.160 --> 0:32:17.800 Amp broke and it just didn't feel like that thing anymore. 0:32:18.320 --> 0:32:23.400 And is as glorious as it was, it just wasn't 0:32:23.760 --> 0:32:26.920 that tiny theater thing where you couldn't believe what was 0:32:26.960 --> 0:32:29.960 going on. You know, A big Crimson fan, I was 0:32:30.000 --> 0:32:33.560 a big Crimson fan. I was a Yes fan, though 0:32:33.600 --> 0:32:35.440 I never felt that Yes was as good live as 0:32:35.440 --> 0:32:38.240 their records and some of these other bands. I felt 0:32:38.240 --> 0:32:42.000 like they were better live than their records. And you know, 0:32:42.520 --> 0:32:44.280 I don't know slidle over. 0:32:44.200 --> 0:32:47.480 Staying with Floyd. Were you in on the Amagama Adam 0:32:47.560 --> 0:32:49.000 Hart mother level. 0:32:49.080 --> 0:32:52.120 Yeah, oh yeah, right at the beginning, Piper's at the 0:32:52.160 --> 0:32:52.880 gates are done. 0:32:53.040 --> 0:32:57.320 Okay, let's go back to growing up. You grew up 0:32:57.360 --> 0:32:58.200 where exactly. 0:32:59.680 --> 0:33:01.840 I was born in Upper Michigan, and at six years 0:33:01.840 --> 0:33:05.280 old we moved to Displains, Illinois, which is just outside 0:33:05.320 --> 0:33:08.720 of o'haa airport in the northern suburbs of Chicago. 0:33:09.040 --> 0:33:11.160 And your father and mother did what for a living. 0:33:12.040 --> 0:33:16.200 My mom was a journalist, ran a newspaper in Michigan, 0:33:16.240 --> 0:33:18.960 and then when we got to Chicago, there was a 0:33:18.960 --> 0:33:20.800 company that she worked at and she ran the newspaper 0:33:20.840 --> 0:33:23.320 for the company. It's all she ever did. And dad 0:33:23.920 --> 0:33:26.600 was a musician who did whatever else he did so 0:33:26.640 --> 0:33:28.200 that he could go play gigs on the weekend. 0:33:28.880 --> 0:33:31.080 Okay, so that's where it's going. So there was music 0:33:31.120 --> 0:33:32.320 in the house for minute one. 0:33:32.520 --> 0:33:35.600 Yeah, yeah. And my sister was a concert pianist and 0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:40.640 eighteen years old in nineteen sixty eight, So I was 0:33:40.680 --> 0:33:43.240 at the Grand Park sly Stone thing. I was nine 0:33:43.320 --> 0:33:47.200 years old. She brought me. I was there, Okay, so 0:33:47.280 --> 0:33:49.240 I saw Hendrick. She brought me to see Hendrick. She 0:33:49.320 --> 0:33:51.520 brought me. She's turned me onto all that stuff. You know, 0:33:51.960 --> 0:33:52.960 Dylan and all of it. 0:33:53.200 --> 0:33:56.040 Okay, so only two kids in the family. 0:33:55.760 --> 0:33:58.440 Three my younger, but my younger sisters. She was just 0:33:58.480 --> 0:34:02.000 too young to have any effect on what was going 0:34:02.000 --> 0:34:03.480 on artistically or musically. 0:34:03.560 --> 0:34:06.480 You know. Okay, you're talking about Hendricks, you talk about 0:34:06.480 --> 0:34:11.839 all this era, three best shows you've ever seen. We're 0:34:11.840 --> 0:34:14.879 not locking in an amber, so relatively off the top 0:34:14.920 --> 0:34:15.439 of your head. 0:34:15.640 --> 0:34:19.040 Okay. So so I would say, and I actually have 0:34:19.080 --> 0:34:21.719 a tape of this show. Here that a front. We 0:34:22.920 --> 0:34:24.720 used to sneak a Nagra into these. 0:34:25.040 --> 0:34:27.399 Wait wait, wait, wait a second. How did you have a. 0:34:27.400 --> 0:34:29.560 Nagara in under a coat? 0:34:29.680 --> 0:34:31.600 No? No, no, no, no that way. 0:34:31.719 --> 0:34:32.719 It wasn't me that did it. 0:34:32.800 --> 0:34:37.200 No, the Nagra until digital recording was the peak. 0:34:37.400 --> 0:34:37.880 Yes it was. 0:34:37.920 --> 0:34:40.880 The average kid did not have a vograa. They had 0:34:40.920 --> 0:34:43.240 a little moroaco. How did you have a bagraa? 0:34:43.760 --> 0:34:46.160 It was one of the kids in high school's father's 0:34:46.280 --> 0:34:48.360 thing and he had it. And we have I have 0:34:48.440 --> 0:34:50.239 all kinds of shows, but I'm telling you I have 0:34:50.280 --> 0:34:53.319 stuff for freak out. I have like Tarcas, you know, 0:34:53.800 --> 0:34:59.120 Crimson stuff, Jeff Beck stuff. But what we have is Eclipse, 0:34:59.640 --> 0:35:04.200 which is them touring Floyd touring metal and then experimenting 0:35:04.560 --> 0:35:07.840 with Dark Side before they recorded it, and that show 0:35:08.160 --> 0:35:11.279 was a life changer. The thickest a brick show was 0:35:11.320 --> 0:35:16.600 a life changer. And I'd say the third show I wouldn't. 0:35:16.719 --> 0:35:18.520 I couldn't put my finger on it. I mean Leon 0:35:18.640 --> 0:35:21.800 Russell maybe you know, or Elton, those those early Elton 0:35:21.840 --> 0:35:23.640 gigs or the early I mean, I was a huge 0:35:23.719 --> 0:35:26.920 Leon fan and it's on the other side of the spectrum. 0:35:26.960 --> 0:35:30.200 But well, Leon could just you know, he was crazy, 0:35:31.080 --> 0:35:32.839 big influence on me too, both of them. 0:35:33.000 --> 0:35:34.200 How did you get into Leon? 0:35:34.880 --> 0:35:35.800 I'm a piano player. 0:35:36.280 --> 0:35:39.040 Well, I mean, when I remember Leon the second Joe 0:35:39.080 --> 0:35:43.840 Cocker album, he had the credit for writing Delta Lady Okay. 0:35:44.239 --> 0:35:46.720 And then I went back and bought the first solo 0:35:46.800 --> 0:35:51.240 album Ben Mad Dogs and Englishman happened, and then Leon 0:35:51.320 --> 0:35:52.520 Russell and the Shelter People. 0:35:52.640 --> 0:35:56.560 Leon became gigantic, right. However, I think that. 0:35:56.960 --> 0:36:00.319 I burned out on Leon. I'm the Triple Leon Live album. 0:36:00.520 --> 0:36:02.239 I found that was one step too far. 0:36:02.880 --> 0:36:05.759 Yeah, I think I was the first album and then 0:36:05.840 --> 0:36:09.720 Shelter People, those two albums which would which would parallel 0:36:10.640 --> 0:36:13.640 the Elton John and Tumbleweed connection. They were you know, 0:36:14.360 --> 0:36:17.560 they were cousins at the same time. And then for 0:36:17.680 --> 0:36:21.359 me it was Mad Dogs and so those three those 0:36:21.400 --> 0:36:23.640 were those are my three leons. 0:36:24.800 --> 0:36:26.359 Did you see Mad Dogs live? 0:36:27.239 --> 0:36:27.680 I did not. 0:36:27.960 --> 0:36:28.960 I did see that one. 0:36:29.200 --> 0:36:32.120 I wish I had. Let's go back, I wish I had. 0:36:32.320 --> 0:36:35.879 So your father's musician. Do your parents make you take 0:36:35.920 --> 0:36:37.960 piano lessons? Like at age five six? 0:36:38.920 --> 0:36:41.960 No, behind me here sitting right there. 0:36:42.560 --> 0:36:45.239 This is not video, but you're showing to me, so 0:36:45.360 --> 0:36:45.960 describe it. 0:36:46.480 --> 0:36:49.719 There's a nineteen fifty nine chickering sitting behind me that 0:36:49.800 --> 0:36:52.720 my parents bought a nineteen fifty nine for my sister Mary. 0:36:52.800 --> 0:36:56.080 I was three, and at that point she started teaching 0:36:56.120 --> 0:36:58.280 me songs from the sound of music, and at five 0:36:58.640 --> 0:37:02.360 I accompanied the High School of v show. I was 0:37:02.400 --> 0:37:06.680 the accompanist in first grade. So it's I've never done 0:37:06.719 --> 0:37:11.279 anything else, and I don't. I don't what am I 0:37:11.280 --> 0:37:13.480 I'm just obsessive, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not. 0:37:13.680 --> 0:37:17.320 I don't have that kind of crazy brain where I 0:37:17.360 --> 0:37:19.719 can just hear things and know them. I don't have 0:37:19.800 --> 0:37:22.400 that at all. I just I'm just a bit obsessive, 0:37:22.400 --> 0:37:25.120 and I have a deep Midwestern work ethic that keeps 0:37:25.120 --> 0:37:26.440 me at it no matter what. 0:37:27.160 --> 0:37:30.359 Okay, so did you ever take lessons? I did? 0:37:30.440 --> 0:37:33.920 I took. I took piano lessons. There's a there's a 0:37:33.960 --> 0:37:36.279 family story. In fact, the book is still in that 0:37:36.320 --> 0:37:40.719 piano bench where the teacher said he doesn't know the alphabet, 0:37:41.520 --> 0:37:46.160 so I can't teach him this yet. And so I 0:37:46.680 --> 0:37:50.359 did take piano lessons, and I took classical lessons as 0:37:50.360 --> 0:37:56.320 well as jazz lessons, probably till I was about twelve, thirteen, fourteen, 0:37:57.560 --> 0:37:59.799 and then you know, I was just playing bands all 0:37:59.800 --> 0:38:00.240 the time. 0:38:00.400 --> 0:38:01.600 And how good a reader are you? 0:38:02.920 --> 0:38:05.239 I suck at it. I suck at it. And the 0:38:05.280 --> 0:38:08.279 reason I suck at reading is that I've always been 0:38:08.280 --> 0:38:10.799 reluctant to learn other people's music. I never wanted to, 0:38:11.440 --> 0:38:15.439 and I still don't. I don't really study other people's work, 0:38:16.440 --> 0:38:19.280 you know, in listening to bands when I was a kid. 0:38:20.640 --> 0:38:24.279 The one thing that I remember doing just because I 0:38:24.360 --> 0:38:27.279 was I felt I needed to, is I spent a 0:38:27.360 --> 0:38:30.480 year learning tarcas, you know, because I wanted to be 0:38:30.520 --> 0:38:33.040 able to play it. But that's that's as far as 0:38:33.080 --> 0:38:35.839 it went. I to this day, I couldn't play any 0:38:35.840 --> 0:38:38.399 of those songs and I couldn't play targets anymore either. 0:38:38.680 --> 0:38:39.840 That takes younger hands. 0:38:41.120 --> 0:38:46.160 Okay, you're almost date your seven Oh when the Beatles 0:38:46.160 --> 0:38:48.839 are on at Sullivan, does that mean anything to you 0:38:48.920 --> 0:38:49.359 at the time? 0:38:49.640 --> 0:38:52.040 It does, because I had a sister who was obsessed 0:38:52.040 --> 0:38:53.840 with it, and so I had beatle boots and a 0:38:53.840 --> 0:38:57.560 beatlewig when I was seven years old. Like no shit, 0:38:57.600 --> 0:38:59.839 I was right there with it. It was cool. And 0:39:00.120 --> 0:39:02.320 because Dad was a musician and we had a record 0:39:02.320 --> 0:39:05.359 player in the house, all those records were there too, 0:39:05.680 --> 0:39:08.920 So it was everything Mary brought home from Maretha to 0:39:09.000 --> 0:39:10.960 all the Smoky Robinson and all the R and B 0:39:11.120 --> 0:39:13.279 stuff and whatever rock and roll she was listening to. 0:39:13.760 --> 0:39:16.359 And Dad was listening to George sheringhen Stan Getz and 0:39:16.440 --> 0:39:20.799 Oscar Peterson and Charlie Parker and Joe Beam, you know, 0:39:20.880 --> 0:39:22.840 and it was all in the house at the same time. 0:39:23.160 --> 0:39:27.160 Okay, you're obsessive about playing the piano, but you're going 0:39:27.200 --> 0:39:31.480 to school at the same time. So how well were 0:39:31.560 --> 0:39:35.399 you doing in school? How socialized were you at school? No? Good? 0:39:35.800 --> 0:39:38.440 You know, little cluster of friends that hung out in 0:39:38.440 --> 0:39:42.480 our rooms and listen to records and bad grades all 0:39:42.480 --> 0:39:45.359 the time, and out at sixteen years old, I went 0:39:45.400 --> 0:39:47.880 on the road. I never finished any of it. 0:39:48.239 --> 0:39:53.279 Okay, you're young. When the Beatles break and people were 0:39:53.280 --> 0:39:56.720 a little older, you immediately bought guitars and formed bands. 0:39:57.120 --> 0:40:00.240 When did you start forming bands? 0:40:01.400 --> 0:40:04.560 When I was nine, my dad and I were taking 0:40:04.719 --> 0:40:08.040 lessons from a brilliant man in Chicago, Naed Vince Duresi. 0:40:08.960 --> 0:40:12.000 He was a jazz court of box player, which is 0:40:12.000 --> 0:40:14.040 like an accordion, but it makes it sounds like an organ, 0:40:14.800 --> 0:40:18.040 and he was an amazing player. And Dad was taking 0:40:18.120 --> 0:40:20.239 lessons from him as a sax player, but so it 0:40:20.320 --> 0:40:22.960 was just theory. And then I was taking lessons from 0:40:23.040 --> 0:40:25.880 him as a pianist, and so he taught me to 0:40:26.200 --> 0:40:29.600 walking basslines and chords and chorden versions, you know, jazz 0:40:29.680 --> 0:40:34.560 chord in versions. And this is a crazy thing. But 0:40:34.600 --> 0:40:37.680 my dad would play on weekends all the time. He's 0:40:37.680 --> 0:40:39.759 played on weekends, and they had a supper club gig 0:40:39.800 --> 0:40:43.680 that was ongoing, and the quarterbox player, his quarterbox player 0:40:44.440 --> 0:40:46.520 worked at J. C. Penny in the shoe department and 0:40:46.520 --> 0:40:49.200 didn't end till nine o'clock on Friday. So I had 0:40:49.280 --> 0:40:51.799 to play the first two sets so dad bought me 0:40:51.840 --> 0:40:55.200 a far fees of mini compact really nine, yeah, so 0:40:55.280 --> 0:40:57.720 I could play this trio gig with my dad drums, 0:40:57.800 --> 0:41:00.719 him and me. And now I'm a nine year old 0:41:00.760 --> 0:41:03.840 or a ten year old who can play the intro 0:41:03.960 --> 0:41:06.280 to light my fire and I've got my own organ. 0:41:06.640 --> 0:41:09.160 So I was in every band in the neighborhood with 0:41:09.239 --> 0:41:12.680 guys that were many, you know, much my senior, because 0:41:12.719 --> 0:41:17.120 I could go at nine or ten. I think it 0:41:17.160 --> 0:41:18.400 was about ten when that came up. 0:41:18.560 --> 0:41:25.040 And then was there a dream at that point? 0:41:26.320 --> 0:41:29.000 I don't know if I don't remember. And this is 0:41:29.040 --> 0:41:30.919 somebody asked me this recently and I said, I don't 0:41:30.960 --> 0:41:33.320 remember ever thinking about anything else. You know, it was 0:41:33.400 --> 0:41:36.319 about getting the equipment, and then getting a Hammond organ, 0:41:36.320 --> 0:41:39.000 and then getting a Leslie and then getting a Wurlitzer piano, 0:41:39.040 --> 0:41:42.960 and you know, that was it. I played in a 0:41:43.000 --> 0:41:46.040 band that played at the Aragon when I was thirteen 0:41:46.080 --> 0:41:50.560 years old, and we had a melotron that we bought 0:41:50.600 --> 0:41:54.279 from Rick Nielsen at Nielsen Music in Rockford, Illinois. When 0:41:54.280 --> 0:41:56.279 he was in a band called Firecracker. He just worked 0:41:56.320 --> 0:41:59.360 at his dad's music store and the mother of the 0:41:59.400 --> 0:42:02.080 guitar player and the band had to take a second 0:42:02.160 --> 0:42:04.840 on the Cadillac to pay for the thing. And I 0:42:04.840 --> 0:42:07.000 have pictures of me sitting at this thing, you know, 0:42:07.040 --> 0:42:09.719 playing a melotron and whatever else I had at the time, 0:42:09.760 --> 0:42:12.640 at the Aragon Ballroom in Chicago. I was twelve or 0:42:12.680 --> 0:42:13.680 thirteen years old. 0:42:14.040 --> 0:42:17.120 Okay, your father was what we call a working musician. 0:42:17.760 --> 0:42:20.640 But music took over the world. Not that there was 0:42:20.880 --> 0:42:23.200 music before and not that there's not music today, but 0:42:23.239 --> 0:42:25.920 people who lived through that era, No, it was different. 0:42:26.840 --> 0:42:32.760 Along with playing music, these people were very famous, very rich. 0:42:33.239 --> 0:42:36.880 Did you have any desire to be a star or 0:42:36.920 --> 0:42:39.680 you always said, I'm just playing music and who knows? 0:42:39.920 --> 0:42:42.279 Yeah, no, no, none of that. For me, it was 0:42:42.360 --> 0:42:46.600 just think. I think I was always more obsessed with 0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:50.719 the actual playing and the notes and the writing, and 0:42:51.040 --> 0:42:53.359 the writing was probably the most important. I mean, one 0:42:53.360 --> 0:42:57.040 of my favorite parts of being a musician is the 0:42:57.080 --> 0:42:59.360 ability to improvise, to just sit down at the piano 0:42:59.360 --> 0:43:02.880 and play and improvise. And I have thousands of hours 0:43:02.920 --> 0:43:06.879 of improvisation with no intention of anyone ever hearing it, 0:43:06.960 --> 0:43:09.560 just because it serves me. And that's where I find things. 0:43:10.120 --> 0:43:12.279 So the themes and things that I've come up with 0:43:12.320 --> 0:43:15.200 over the years that for songs, they're just a matter 0:43:15.200 --> 0:43:17.160 of sitting down and improvising and go, oh, that's cool, 0:43:17.480 --> 0:43:20.440 and I write it on a piece of manuscript paper 0:43:20.480 --> 0:43:21.359 and becomes a song. 0:43:22.040 --> 0:43:25.680 Okay, assuming your home on a regular basis and is 0:43:25.680 --> 0:43:28.920 supposed to traveling for whatever reason, do you play the 0:43:28.960 --> 0:43:33.480 piano every day? Yeah, every day, and every day is different. 0:43:33.560 --> 0:43:35.400 How many hours might you play the piano? 0:43:36.560 --> 0:43:41.319 It depends, I mean my work. It depends on what 0:43:41.360 --> 0:43:44.160 I'm on and right now, because I'm starting to promote 0:43:44.160 --> 0:43:48.000 this record, and it's a little bit new territory for 0:43:48.120 --> 0:43:52.040 me just to be so occupied with these things and 0:43:52.080 --> 0:43:57.440 these performances and interviews and things that I've had to 0:43:57.600 --> 0:44:05.160 just stop my work process. My normal thing goes from 0:44:05.200 --> 0:44:07.120 waking up at one in the morning with a lyric 0:44:07.200 --> 0:44:10.440 idea and dictating it into my phone and then sending 0:44:10.520 --> 0:44:12.359 it to my computer down here and coming down and 0:44:12.400 --> 0:44:14.960 writing the music for it, and coming back to the 0:44:14.960 --> 0:44:17.640 house about two in the afternoon to have something to eat, 0:44:17.640 --> 0:44:20.200 and then go back in the studio to pass out, 0:44:20.320 --> 0:44:24.239 you know. And that's not uncommon for me, and I 0:44:24.840 --> 0:44:30.120 like it that way. It's you know, I have sometimes, 0:44:30.600 --> 0:44:34.240 you know, sixteen seventeen hours in the studio just by myself. 0:44:35.440 --> 0:44:40.840 And if it's not writing, its recording something I've already written. 0:44:42.120 --> 0:44:44.560 I tend not to write lyrics in the studio. I 0:44:44.560 --> 0:44:48.000 don't like to. I tend to write them away from 0:44:48.760 --> 0:44:50.400 the instrument. I don't see it at the piano and 0:44:50.400 --> 0:44:56.200 write lyrics. I write lyrics elsewhere, usually just in the 0:44:56.239 --> 0:45:03.359 house in the dark, you know, at night. And so yeah, 0:45:03.360 --> 0:45:06.399 the answer to how much do I play right now? 0:45:06.480 --> 0:45:09.680 Not as much as normal because I'm doing this, you know, 0:45:10.480 --> 0:45:17.040 but if we weren't doing this, I'd be playing right now. 0:45:20.840 --> 0:45:24.720 Okay, do you write the lyrics first or the music first? 0:45:24.800 --> 0:45:26.480 Or it's different in every case? 0:45:27.920 --> 0:45:30.799 Well, there's those two. There's those two cases, right, And 0:45:31.160 --> 0:45:34.040 the what I would say about it is that I 0:45:34.120 --> 0:45:39.160 prefer the lyric first songs. So where I would normally 0:45:39.280 --> 0:45:42.160 just sit at the piano or come up with something 0:45:42.239 --> 0:45:46.040 or wherever I'm sitting, whatever instrument I'm sitting at, even 0:45:46.080 --> 0:45:48.000 if it's the computer here behind me, because I have 0:45:48.400 --> 0:45:49.880 it's not on right now, but I have, you know, 0:45:50.320 --> 0:45:52.080 I can sit down and play things here too, and 0:45:52.600 --> 0:45:58.360 that that way they get recorded, right it's so much 0:45:58.400 --> 0:46:04.160 harder to get a shape, and my tendency, or I 0:46:04.160 --> 0:46:05.799 think it's probably a lot of people do it this 0:46:05.880 --> 0:46:08.719 way is you put the music down, and then you 0:46:08.760 --> 0:46:11.080 put a melody down, because you have a melody, you know, 0:46:11.080 --> 0:46:14.440 if you're writing a song, there's a melody, and so 0:46:14.560 --> 0:46:19.040 I sing the melody down, and then I spend however long, 0:46:19.200 --> 0:46:23.040 agonizing over trying to make those syllables that came out 0:46:23.080 --> 0:46:25.200 of my mouth, the nonsense that came out of my mouth, 0:46:25.239 --> 0:46:28.799 to fill in that melody into words, and it's no 0:46:28.920 --> 0:46:32.640 fun and it makes bad lyrics. So the best way 0:46:32.800 --> 0:46:35.879 for me is to write something from a thought, from 0:46:35.920 --> 0:46:38.839 a feeling, from a concept and flush it out as 0:46:38.880 --> 0:46:41.760 best I can before there's music, and then put music 0:46:41.800 --> 0:46:44.440 to it. There's songs on this record, like it all 0:46:44.480 --> 0:46:46.920 comes down to mood. I think I wrote three versions 0:46:46.960 --> 0:46:49.840 of it, and I could write another one right now 0:46:50.120 --> 0:46:51.799 because I can just look at the lyric and sing 0:46:51.920 --> 0:46:56.799 something else. You know, it's fairly simple to do, and 0:46:56.840 --> 0:46:59.160 so that's what I prefer. You know, it's a long answer, 0:46:59.200 --> 0:47:01.440 but that I prefer lyrics first. 0:47:01.800 --> 0:47:04.480 Okay, this was to say Elton doesn't write the lyrics, 0:47:04.719 --> 0:47:07.840 but it's the same thing. Bernie delivers lyrics, he writes 0:47:07.840 --> 0:47:09.400 the music. You ever discussed it with Elton? 0:47:10.200 --> 0:47:11.799 I made an album where the wit he did it. 0:47:12.160 --> 0:47:14.880 I mean, I produced songs on the West Coast. I 0:47:14.920 --> 0:47:15.719 watched him do it. 0:47:15.840 --> 0:47:21.560 I Chosemoke Up Your Ass. That is the best certain 0:47:21.640 --> 0:47:24.719 you know, the best later period Elton album by far. 0:47:25.880 --> 0:47:27.959 And while we were doing it, he said, we're making 0:47:27.960 --> 0:47:30.799 Tumbleweed Connection, aren't we. I said, yeah, we are, you know, 0:47:31.120 --> 0:47:32.960 because that was my obsession, you know. 0:47:33.360 --> 0:47:36.480 You know, well the birds is on that album. Yep, Birds, 0:47:36.800 --> 0:47:39.480 I love that. So that's a real go back to 0:47:39.560 --> 0:47:40.400 what once was. 0:47:40.719 --> 0:47:43.680 Okay, I'll tell you a little story about Birds. Well, 0:47:43.719 --> 0:47:48.319 the the the method of that thing. When we when 0:47:48.360 --> 0:47:52.640 we started doing it, he said, Bernie's up and sanyonez 0:47:52.800 --> 0:47:54.840 go up and see him. He's got two hundred lyrics. 0:47:54.880 --> 0:47:57.080 Pick your favorite ones. So I went up to spend 0:47:57.120 --> 0:48:00.040 a couple of days with Bernie. Picked my favorites. I 0:48:00.080 --> 0:48:02.080 think there was ninety of them out of the two hundred. 0:48:02.360 --> 0:48:05.000 Elton picked his favorites. We took the ones that were 0:48:05.000 --> 0:48:07.640 the same and we made a notebook that I think 0:48:07.680 --> 0:48:09.879 had seventy or five or eighty lyrics and I still 0:48:09.880 --> 0:48:13.600 have the notebook. I love this thing. And studios, set 0:48:13.680 --> 0:48:16.959 up drums, set up two or three drum kits, couple 0:48:17.040 --> 0:48:21.040 grand pianos, guitar ramps, players, my keyboard, shit, everything there, 0:48:21.360 --> 0:48:25.120 no songs. Day one, everyone's there and Elton comes in 0:48:25.160 --> 0:48:26.719 and he goes to the piano and he opens a 0:48:26.760 --> 0:48:29.759 book and it takes him less than a minute, and 0:48:29.800 --> 0:48:31.719 he goes bat and he comes in. He shows me 0:48:32.239 --> 0:48:34.799 it's done. I mean I want to say it's done. 0:48:34.800 --> 0:48:37.920 I mean, it's done. He's done it. And I never 0:48:37.960 --> 0:48:40.440 saw anything like it. And we had the whole albums 0:48:40.480 --> 0:48:44.040 done that way. So Birds was one of those. When 0:48:45.000 --> 0:48:47.760 he wrote Birds and we started putting down this track. 0:48:48.480 --> 0:48:50.960 We finished it that day. It was like that one. 0:48:51.000 --> 0:48:53.279 We just finished. We never did another thing to it 0:48:53.320 --> 0:48:56.080 except mix it. It was one day written and recorded. 0:48:56.120 --> 0:48:58.719 Okay, let's go a little bit deeper. Does he ever 0:48:58.800 --> 0:49:02.440 sit down and play you go? No? I think you 0:49:02.440 --> 0:49:05.720 should try something else, Elton, Yeah. 0:49:05.640 --> 0:49:08.440 No, too much of a groupie. I mean Elton, Elton's 0:49:08.440 --> 0:49:11.239 you know, Elton's the highest bar for me in terms 0:49:11.239 --> 0:49:14.400 of just a creative spirit. He really is. He's absolutely 0:49:14.440 --> 0:49:18.760 breathtaking when you watch him find these things so naturally 0:49:18.800 --> 0:49:21.640 and so quickly and so humbly. We just share something 0:49:21.640 --> 0:49:25.759 with you. We just last October recorded Leon's a Song 0:49:25.800 --> 0:49:28.680 for you, and I asked Elton if you would do it, 0:49:28.680 --> 0:49:32.400 because I want to make a little commemorative Leon record. 0:49:33.120 --> 0:49:34.560 And I asked him if he would do it, and 0:49:34.600 --> 0:49:35.960 he city would, but I don't want to play the 0:49:35.960 --> 0:49:38.720 piano part. So I played the piano part and Elton 0:49:38.800 --> 0:49:42.239 sang it. So I have this thing of these two 0:49:42.320 --> 0:49:44.400 artists that I couldn't get enough of when I was 0:49:44.440 --> 0:49:48.400 twelve years old. And we did it at Sunset Sounds. 0:49:48.440 --> 0:49:52.120 So the piano that I played on the session was 0:49:52.200 --> 0:49:54.279 Leon's piano. It was the same piano that he did 0:49:54.320 --> 0:49:58.160 the original in the same room, all coincidental. And then 0:49:58.200 --> 0:49:59.600 I came home and played it on my piano here 0:49:59.640 --> 0:50:01.920 because it was a one hundred and twenty year old 0:50:01.920 --> 0:50:04.160 piano and it didn't quite have the life in it, 0:50:04.239 --> 0:50:09.800 so I replayed it. But anyway, so that aside Elton, 0:50:10.120 --> 0:50:12.560 there's nobody like Elton, and all you have to do 0:50:12.600 --> 0:50:13.520 is watch him do this thing. 0:50:13.600 --> 0:50:17.040 Oh okay, okay, why did Elton not want to play 0:50:17.040 --> 0:50:18.520 the piano part? On a song for you. 0:50:20.480 --> 0:50:23.080 It's not it's a tricky part. It's a tricky thing 0:50:23.120 --> 0:50:25.040 to play that, especially if you're going to do it 0:50:25.080 --> 0:50:26.960 true to form. A lot of people haven't done it, 0:50:27.480 --> 0:50:29.000 you know. They just played the chords and they put 0:50:29.040 --> 0:50:32.040 their own intro and whatever. But that little intro. 0:50:31.880 --> 0:50:33.680 Like yeah, yeah, one in the middle. 0:50:34.440 --> 0:50:37.480 It's not easy. It's it's a very strange thing. And 0:50:37.480 --> 0:50:40.200 it's for Leon, you know. He he talked about it 0:50:40.239 --> 0:50:42.279 after a couple of times. He said, I didn't I 0:50:42.320 --> 0:50:44.799 didn't plan that. It's just what I did. And it 0:50:44.840 --> 0:50:47.920 has that in it. It has some sense of like 0:50:48.000 --> 0:50:51.440 this is just a linear thought. It's not. It's not 0:50:51.520 --> 0:50:53.360 worked out at all, and so it makes it a 0:50:53.400 --> 0:50:56.080 little tricky, you know, And it was. It took me 0:50:56.120 --> 0:50:58.360 to me a long time to get it. 0:50:58.400 --> 0:51:01.480 Elton works fast, work with a lot of people. Do 0:51:01.520 --> 0:51:03.600 you have an opinion, I'm fast and slow. 0:51:05.800 --> 0:51:09.319 Uh, I don't think. I don't think it matters. I 0:51:09.360 --> 0:51:16.359 think that although slow can sometimes be an indication of 0:51:17.080 --> 0:51:21.480 an uncertainty, and I think you have to know you know, 0:51:21.880 --> 0:51:25.080 the person that second guesses and that's why they're slow. 0:51:25.719 --> 0:51:26.640 Got no time for that. 0:51:28.400 --> 0:51:30.840 Okay, let's go back. So you play with your father 0:51:31.560 --> 0:51:35.239 and then he got all these keyboards. You drop out 0:51:35.239 --> 0:51:36.360 of high school. 0:51:36.000 --> 0:51:40.719 To go on the road, Yeah, I had. Actually, I 0:51:41.120 --> 0:51:43.120 drop out is the wrong thing. I was thrown out 0:51:43.120 --> 0:51:47.480 of high school because I was incorrigible and didn't have 0:51:47.520 --> 0:51:49.480 the grades I was going to need to graduate. And 0:51:49.520 --> 0:51:51.040 all I was doing was playing piano all day. I 0:51:51.080 --> 0:51:53.360 would go to home room in the morning, and that 0:51:53.440 --> 0:51:55.319 meant that they felt you were they thought you were there, 0:51:55.320 --> 0:51:56.920 and then I would my folks were both at work. 0:51:56.920 --> 0:51:59.120 I'd go home, play the piano all day and come 0:51:59.160 --> 0:52:00.960 back at the end for me classes at the end 0:52:00.960 --> 0:52:02.880 of the day. And that a couple of years of that, 0:52:02.960 --> 0:52:05.279 and you're not going to get you to Bloma. So 0:52:07.320 --> 0:52:09.920 I was out and I was sixteen, and there was 0:52:09.960 --> 0:52:12.880 a kid in one of my classes who knew me, 0:52:13.600 --> 0:52:17.359 and his mother was associated with a show band and 0:52:17.520 --> 0:52:19.880 they needed a keyboard player. And he just said, I 0:52:19.920 --> 0:52:22.279 know this guy and maybe he can do it, and 0:52:22.360 --> 0:52:26.000 they called me, and his mother drove me to Traverse City, Michigan, 0:52:26.400 --> 0:52:28.359 where I joined this show band and played with him 0:52:28.400 --> 0:52:31.640 for a couple of years. And you know, the guy 0:52:31.719 --> 0:52:35.080 was a pianist and I played keyboards behind him, so 0:52:36.000 --> 0:52:38.959 and there was no charts, so he'd do some version 0:52:39.000 --> 0:52:40.640 of rhapsody and blew and I had a chord chart, 0:52:40.719 --> 0:52:43.160 so I'd have to kind of create orchestrations. And I 0:52:43.160 --> 0:52:44.719 think it did me a lot of good because it 0:52:44.760 --> 0:52:47.120 was flying by the seat of your pants sort of thing, 0:52:47.160 --> 0:52:47.279 you know. 0:52:47.400 --> 0:52:50.640 Okay, when you went on the road with the show band, 0:52:51.400 --> 0:52:54.239 did you have a band that was playing parties and 0:52:54.280 --> 0:52:57.160 shows at the same time. Were you giving anything up 0:52:57.200 --> 0:52:58.640 to go on the road with the show band? 0:52:58.760 --> 0:53:01.520 No, no, no, no no. I was giving up getting 0:53:01.560 --> 0:53:04.080 away from my parents being disappointed me from being thrown 0:53:04.080 --> 0:53:05.960 out high school. I don't think my dad was, but 0:53:06.000 --> 0:53:09.200 I think my mom was a little bit put off. 0:53:09.360 --> 0:53:12.760 And also I think they both thought, you've really chosen 0:53:12.800 --> 0:53:15.520 a crazy path, man, you really have, because it was 0:53:15.560 --> 0:53:18.360 clear I wasn't going to do anything else. But you know, 0:53:18.600 --> 0:53:20.920 it's a Midwestern family with a lot of musicians in 0:53:20.960 --> 0:53:22.480 the family, and none of them have ever made a 0:53:22.520 --> 0:53:24.520 dime from it, you know, enough to buy a couple 0:53:24.560 --> 0:53:27.840 of beers, So I think they were, you know, nervous. 0:53:27.960 --> 0:53:33.400 Okay, looking back fifty odd years later in your career, 0:53:33.960 --> 0:53:36.400 have you ever had a moment where you were broken 0:53:36.440 --> 0:53:37.000 out of money. 0:53:38.239 --> 0:53:40.440 Sure, yeah, yeah, okay. 0:53:40.120 --> 0:53:42.800 So let's go back. You're playing with the show bad. 0:53:43.320 --> 0:53:46.279 Is that like a fifty week a year job or 0:53:46.320 --> 0:53:47.160 is that interbidden? 0:53:49.520 --> 0:53:52.799 No, it's there. They're out all the time. They're just out. 0:53:52.880 --> 0:53:56.919 This is these people live in their motor homes and 0:53:57.040 --> 0:54:00.680 their you know whatever hotels and go to a club 0:54:00.680 --> 0:54:03.759 and you're there for a month, and it's six nights 0:54:03.760 --> 0:54:07.160 a week, you know, and there's a show, and then 0:54:07.200 --> 0:54:08.160 there's dance sets. 0:54:08.960 --> 0:54:09.160 You know. 0:54:09.200 --> 0:54:11.160 That's the way that stuff worked back in those days. 0:54:11.200 --> 0:54:13.440 So there would be like two shows that were an 0:54:13.440 --> 0:54:15.719 hour long or fifty minutes or whatever they were with 0:54:16.239 --> 0:54:20.160 whoever the band belonged to, and then he wouldn't be there, 0:54:20.200 --> 0:54:23.319 and there'd be dance sets to fill the time in 0:54:23.360 --> 0:54:26.040 between in these clubs, and sometimes that went to three 0:54:26.040 --> 0:54:28.600 in the morning, and oftentimes just for candles. You know, 0:54:28.600 --> 0:54:31.240 you're just excuse me, you're just playing for candles. 0:54:32.360 --> 0:54:40.960 Okay, you're a teenager on the road. Sex drugs. Were 0:54:41.000 --> 0:54:42.680 those a part of the lifestyle? 0:54:44.960 --> 0:54:47.560 Not in this case, no, because it was it wasn't 0:54:47.640 --> 0:54:49.960 rock and roll, you know, and you need that third 0:54:49.960 --> 0:54:54.520 one to get those first two. You know what I mean. 0:54:54.840 --> 0:54:56.800 You don't get sex and drugs in a show band, 0:54:57.160 --> 0:54:57.359 you know. 0:54:58.640 --> 0:55:01.399 Okay, so you're doing the show, you're playing music, you're 0:55:01.440 --> 0:55:04.400 getting paid. Are you saying to yourself this is great? 0:55:04.640 --> 0:55:06.000 Or I got to move on from this? 0:55:06.760 --> 0:55:08.840 Well, what I was doing is I was I was 0:55:08.880 --> 0:55:12.799 obsessively practicing during the day. So because and this was 0:55:12.920 --> 0:55:16.400 just the twist of fate, because this first gig was 0:55:16.400 --> 0:55:19.279 with a pianist and they brought a real piano. I 0:55:19.320 --> 0:55:21.320 could go into the club and the day and practice. 0:55:21.920 --> 0:55:24.280 And so I did, and I practiced, and I practiced 0:55:24.280 --> 0:55:27.319 and I practiced, and with the intention that I'm going 0:55:27.400 --> 0:55:29.840 to buy keyboards. I'm going to get my own keyboards, 0:55:29.880 --> 0:55:32.040 and I'm going to get my chops even better, and 0:55:32.080 --> 0:55:33.960 then I'm going to go start a band or you know, 0:55:34.840 --> 0:55:37.480 you know, somebody's gonna hire me or whatever it was, 0:55:37.560 --> 0:55:42.440 you know, whatever it was. So what was it? It 0:55:42.560 --> 0:55:44.319 was a bunch of little things along the way. I 0:55:44.360 --> 0:55:50.160 think when I was I was fourteen, and there was 0:55:50.160 --> 0:55:53.200 a guy in Chicago named Paul Bogus Junior, and he 0:55:53.280 --> 0:55:55.920 got a record deal. Larry Carlton signed him to a 0:55:55.960 --> 0:55:59.399 record deal. And I had played on the demos, and 0:55:59.440 --> 0:56:04.760 I was thirteen, and Larry said to Paul he wanted 0:56:04.760 --> 0:56:06.760 to do the record in Chicago with the same guys 0:56:06.760 --> 0:56:09.560 that had done the demo. And so the first day 0:56:09.560 --> 0:56:11.719 in the studio, Larry came and put his hand on 0:56:11.760 --> 0:56:13.200 my shoulder. I was sitting at a Fender Roads and 0:56:13.280 --> 0:56:15.440 he said, tell me, I didn't just hire a high 0:56:15.440 --> 0:56:20.360 school freshman record. I think you did, so, Larry, and 0:56:20.400 --> 0:56:22.640 I you know, I knew Larry from back then. 0:56:23.000 --> 0:56:26.200 And wait, wait, wait, you knew Larry personally? 0:56:26.960 --> 0:56:29.680 Yeah? How yeah, from that record because I. 0:56:29.680 --> 0:56:31.600 Played, oh you met him on the record. 0:56:31.600 --> 0:56:33.080 You didn't know you met him on the record? 0:56:33.160 --> 0:56:33.239 Right? 0:56:33.320 --> 0:56:35.799 And then? And then a couple of years after that, 0:56:35.880 --> 0:56:39.080 I think I was sixteen or seventeen. It was actually 0:56:39.080 --> 0:56:41.520 what it was is it was after a year of 0:56:41.600 --> 0:56:45.480 the show band. I came to La. I think I 0:56:45.520 --> 0:56:46.080 was seventeen. 0:56:46.200 --> 0:56:48.680 Whoa, wha, wha, wha, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's wait, 0:56:48.840 --> 0:56:51.320 let's let up. You're playing in the show band. 0:56:51.680 --> 0:56:53.839 I haven't strung this together in a long time. 0:56:53.920 --> 0:56:57.160 You're playing in a show band. You just said. In 0:56:57.160 --> 0:56:59.920 addition to moving in La, you moved with your band. 0:57:00.960 --> 0:57:04.840 No no, no, no, no, what what what? What? I 0:57:04.880 --> 0:57:05.359 had a van? 0:57:05.640 --> 0:57:06.560 Yeah? Oh business. 0:57:07.520 --> 0:57:09.560 So what I did was I had my keyboards and 0:57:09.640 --> 0:57:11.960 I thought, I'm going to go to LA and I'm 0:57:12.000 --> 0:57:15.200 going to see what I can do. Now I'm seventeen and. 0:57:15.320 --> 0:57:17.360 Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait. How 0:57:17.400 --> 0:57:19.200 many keyboards do you put in the van? 0:57:20.640 --> 0:57:23.240 Uh? Well, it was one of those four d'conoline vans, right, 0:57:23.320 --> 0:57:26.840 And so I think I had a Fender Rhodes and 0:57:26.880 --> 0:57:32.440 a clavinet and uh Mini Mogue. Maybe I think that's 0:57:32.480 --> 0:57:35.280 what I had, and I don't I had a Hammond, 0:57:35.320 --> 0:57:36.800 but I don't think I tried to stick it in 0:57:36.840 --> 0:57:38.680 the van, you know, because I couldn't get it in 0:57:38.760 --> 0:57:41.200 and out myself. So I think that's about what it was. 0:57:41.240 --> 0:57:45.360 And I and I came out and uh and Larry. 0:57:47.240 --> 0:57:50.200 I visited with Larry and had insane experiences going. 0:57:50.200 --> 0:57:55.640 Whoa you get to LA? Where do you stay? 0:57:57.040 --> 0:58:01.840 Where did I stay? I don't remember where I stayed. 0:58:01.840 --> 0:58:05.160 I think I might have stayed in somebody's apartment. Yeah, 0:58:05.160 --> 0:58:11.000 I stayed in an apartment and I kind of don't 0:58:11.040 --> 0:58:13.960 remember that part. Oh wait, I remember something. Maybe I 0:58:14.000 --> 0:58:15.600 stayed with Hawk. Do you know Hawk? 0:58:15.640 --> 0:58:17.120 Wilensky, No I know who he is. 0:58:17.160 --> 0:58:19.800 I don't know, Okay, So Hawk, I go back with 0:58:19.840 --> 0:58:23.440 Hawk because Banger Flying Circus, which was his first band, 0:58:24.480 --> 0:58:26.200 was one of my favorite bands. So I met Hawk 0:58:26.240 --> 0:58:28.880 when I was ten years old, going to his concerts 0:58:28.920 --> 0:58:30.880 and you know, at a place called the Cellar in 0:58:31.000 --> 0:58:36.919 Arlington Heights. And so I came out and that yet's right. 0:58:37.520 --> 0:58:43.440 And so aside from Larry, Hawk had lent let me 0:58:43.520 --> 0:58:47.760 get this right, Hawk had lent one of l De 0:58:47.880 --> 0:58:52.120 Carlo's guitars. He was the guitar player and Banger, which 0:58:52.160 --> 0:58:57.120 became Madua. It's a long story there, Chicago boys. He 0:58:57.160 --> 0:58:58.960 had lent it to El because Al was going to 0:58:59.000 --> 0:59:04.560 audition for Frank zapA and we needed to go pick 0:59:04.640 --> 0:59:09.000 up the guitar. El's guitar at Zappa's rehearsals. So we 0:59:09.080 --> 0:59:14.040 went to the rehearsals and somebody asked Hawk if he 0:59:14.440 --> 0:59:16.720 was interested in auditioning for Frank, and he said, no, 0:59:16.800 --> 0:59:20.840 but Pat will. So so I did. And I was 0:59:20.880 --> 0:59:22.760 around for a couple of months. You know, I didn't 0:59:22.800 --> 0:59:25.520 I couldn't stay with it because my reading was no good. 0:59:26.240 --> 0:59:28.600 But I was like two months of doing rehearsals for 0:59:28.680 --> 0:59:35.960 the what was the Zodaaluur's period for Zappa, And after 0:59:36.000 --> 0:59:39.040 that there was nothing except selling my Clavenet to have 0:59:39.160 --> 0:59:47.800 enough gas money to drive back to Chicago. 0:59:49.920 --> 0:59:52.480 So how long were you in La m? 0:59:54.440 --> 0:59:56.120 Five months? Four months? I don't remember. 0:59:56.360 --> 0:59:59.800 Okay, okay, you mentioned connecting with Larry Carlton there and 0:59:59.840 --> 1:00:01.600 I cut you off. What happened with Larry? 1:00:01.760 --> 1:00:04.520 Yeah, well, it's just there's just a beautiful story because 1:00:04.560 --> 1:00:08.240 I went up to his house which was on Mohomes 1:00:08.280 --> 1:00:11.960 at the time, and just to visit, and he had 1:00:12.880 --> 1:00:14.800 we hung out a little bit and then he said, look, 1:00:14.840 --> 1:00:17.240 I have a con. I have a session today and 1:00:17.320 --> 1:00:19.520 a concert tonight. You just want to join me for them? 1:00:19.520 --> 1:00:22.560 And I said, of course, And so he said, I'm 1:00:22.560 --> 1:00:24.720 gonna take a shower, play the piano if you want. 1:00:25.000 --> 1:00:26.480 And so I sat at the piano and on the 1:00:26.480 --> 1:00:29.080 piano was a cassette player and charts and it was 1:00:30.600 --> 1:00:34.080 Fagan because Larry did the arrangements for Royal Scam right 1:00:34.440 --> 1:00:36.120 and he was working on him at the time, So 1:00:36.200 --> 1:00:37.960 it was the charts for Royal Scam sitting on the 1:00:37.960 --> 1:00:41.400 piano and there from there he threw a n amp 1:00:41.400 --> 1:00:43.280 in the back of his guitar in his car and 1:00:43.360 --> 1:00:46.040 a couple of guitars, and we drove down to an 1:00:46.160 --> 1:00:48.200 M studios. I had no idea where we were going. 1:00:48.960 --> 1:00:51.960 And we walked in to Studio B and it was 1:00:52.040 --> 1:00:55.000 his Eira, and it was Jony and Jocko and Henry 1:00:55.080 --> 1:00:57.640 Lewis Wow and Larry and I sat on the couchway. 1:00:57.680 --> 1:00:59.640 He did all his guitar overdubs on his ear right 1:00:59.640 --> 1:01:03.560 next right. So then we go have some dinner, and 1:01:03.600 --> 1:01:05.680 then after dinner he sit as a concert. I said, okay, 1:01:05.760 --> 1:01:09.760 let's go. It was Santa Monica, Civic Weather Report. Choko 1:01:09.880 --> 1:01:13.240 was coming out for heavy weather. It was that night, right, 1:01:13.760 --> 1:01:16.840 So that was kind of my l experience. You know, 1:01:17.200 --> 1:01:19.320 I was a little boy, really, I really was. But 1:01:19.480 --> 1:01:21.360 it gave me a taste of something that I think. 1:01:21.360 --> 1:01:24.400 I thought, you know, this is pretty bad ass to 1:01:24.480 --> 1:01:27.160 be able to play on records like this and do 1:01:27.760 --> 1:01:30.760 this this stuff. And of course you know Tony Man, 1:01:31.200 --> 1:01:34.640 Hazira and Don Juan's Reckless Daughter and Mingus. Those are 1:01:34.680 --> 1:01:36.240 my three, you know. 1:01:37.320 --> 1:01:39.360 Hisira is one of my three. The other two no, 1:01:39.960 --> 1:01:44.600 But when you go back to Chicago with your tail 1:01:44.680 --> 1:01:47.880 between your legs or how hard a decision. 1:01:47.560 --> 1:01:51.720 Is that, Well, it was there was no there was 1:01:51.760 --> 1:01:54.320 no money, you know, there was no money. So I 1:01:54.440 --> 1:01:57.520 came back and got in another show man, this time 1:01:57.520 --> 1:02:01.480 with a drummer friend of mine, and we did it 1:02:01.520 --> 1:02:03.880 with the intention of making enough money to start a band, 1:02:04.560 --> 1:02:07.400 and we started a band called Trillion, and Trillion got 1:02:07.440 --> 1:02:12.000 signed to Sony and we did two albums. 1:02:12.440 --> 1:02:18.439 Wow, those are big steps. Who you know connected to CBS? 1:02:19.080 --> 1:02:21.840 Who was the business person who made that connection? That's 1:02:21.840 --> 1:02:22.880 such a you got signed. 1:02:23.640 --> 1:02:27.360 We were we were a Chicago club band and at 1:02:27.360 --> 1:02:30.120 that time we were kind of the Chicago club band, 1:02:30.240 --> 1:02:33.760 and we were a progressive rock band, and we were 1:02:33.800 --> 1:02:37.040 packing the clubs doing these forty minute weird concept pieces 1:02:37.720 --> 1:02:43.040 and uh and you know, the their their, The interest 1:02:43.120 --> 1:02:45.840 came and a manager came and we did showcases and 1:02:46.680 --> 1:02:48.240 there was a little bit of a bidding war, even 1:02:48.280 --> 1:02:50.360 if I recall, and we ended up signing with Lenny 1:02:50.360 --> 1:02:56.480 Petzi at Epic Portrait right yeah, and made the first 1:02:56.560 --> 1:03:01.600 Trillion album at Cariboo Wow with Gary Lyons. And I 1:03:01.600 --> 1:03:03.200 had been up to Caribou when I was a kid 1:03:03.240 --> 1:03:07.520 too because of Hawk, because Hawk was there, because Madua 1:03:08.280 --> 1:03:11.280 was one of Jimmy Gricio's bands and a friend of mine, 1:03:11.320 --> 1:03:13.080 and I drove out to visit Hawk and we stayed 1:03:13.160 --> 1:03:13.720 up with Caribou. 1:03:13.800 --> 1:03:17.320 I was, you know, fourteen, Okay, just to be clear, 1:03:17.320 --> 1:03:19.680 If you're fourteen, how did you drive. 1:03:20.640 --> 1:03:23.440 My friend Petro, he was seventeen or eighteen. You know, 1:03:25.360 --> 1:03:28.160 always older musicians, always hanging out with older musicians. Okay, 1:03:28.200 --> 1:03:30.000 until now there are no older musicians. 1:03:30.120 --> 1:03:33.520 You're in Trillia. This is the big leagues. Are you 1:03:33.640 --> 1:03:36.400 telling yourself? Man, I've made it? 1:03:37.200 --> 1:03:41.240 No, No, I have. I had the same problem then 1:03:42.000 --> 1:03:44.480 as I do now. If we were to start talking 1:03:44.480 --> 1:03:46.560 about records, I would tell you about the one I've written, 1:03:46.600 --> 1:03:48.880 not about the one I'm about to release. And it 1:03:48.960 --> 1:03:50.560 was my it was my nature. Then it's like, well 1:03:50.560 --> 1:03:56.720 that record's done. And you know, also it was we 1:03:57.480 --> 1:03:59.800 were a prog band and the label wasn't going to 1:03:59.880 --> 1:04:03.680 have that. So whatever songs were the poppyist were the 1:04:03.680 --> 1:04:06.400 ones we did, and the ones that had some elements 1:04:06.440 --> 1:04:11.000 of pop in them that they could take everything proggy 1:04:11.040 --> 1:04:13.120 out of it. That's what happened. And I sort of 1:04:13.160 --> 1:04:17.080 felt like, well, the record sounds good and we played 1:04:17.120 --> 1:04:20.000 well because we were a good band, but this isn't 1:04:20.000 --> 1:04:22.600 where I wanted to be. It really wasn't, you know. 1:04:22.800 --> 1:04:26.640 So then we changed singers and made another record that 1:04:26.760 --> 1:04:28.920 just didn't sound good. It just wasn't even a good 1:04:28.920 --> 1:04:33.000 sounding record, and some of the prog elements got left. 1:04:33.480 --> 1:04:35.840 But at that point it was just kind of it 1:04:35.880 --> 1:04:41.920 wasn't gonna work for me, you know. And obviously in 1:04:41.960 --> 1:04:45.480 this stuff there's agonizing moments. There are really brutal moments 1:04:45.520 --> 1:04:48.040 in this stuff, because you put your life into this 1:04:48.080 --> 1:04:51.960 stuff and you wanted to work. But I'm pretty quick 1:04:52.680 --> 1:04:55.919 about feeling like if the music isn't what I wanted 1:04:55.960 --> 1:04:56.960 to be, I don't belong here. 1:05:00.040 --> 1:05:01.760 Wait, well, there are two eends ine there. You put 1:05:01.800 --> 1:05:05.200 your heart and soul into the music. You were mentioning 1:05:05.240 --> 1:05:07.720 this isn't the right place for me. But the other 1:05:07.800 --> 1:05:09.240 side of it is you put your heart and soul 1:05:09.360 --> 1:05:12.760 to the music and it doesn't break through commercially. That's got 1:05:12.800 --> 1:05:14.520 to be disappointing too. Well. 1:05:14.640 --> 1:05:16.840 I don't know, I don't know what I even expected, 1:05:16.840 --> 1:05:18.320 but I knew we were a good band, and I 1:05:18.360 --> 1:05:20.680 knew that if people could go to see King Crimson 1:05:20.680 --> 1:05:23.760 in Philly, Auditorium theater. Maybe we could get there. I 1:05:23.800 --> 1:05:26.960 didn't you know, I didn't want to be on I 1:05:26.960 --> 1:05:28.720 didn't want to be the cow Sills. I wanted to 1:05:28.760 --> 1:05:29.760 be Channel giants. 1:05:31.200 --> 1:05:33.920 Okay, so you make two records, you say this isn't 1:05:33.920 --> 1:05:35.840 where I want to be at. Then what. 1:05:37.880 --> 1:05:44.080 Then hanging around Chicago and played started doing some jingles 1:05:45.240 --> 1:05:47.200 to make money. Friend of mine got me into doing, 1:05:47.360 --> 1:05:50.160 you know, playing on jingles, and I made the first 1:05:50.320 --> 1:05:54.200 kind of real money that I ever made and started 1:05:54.240 --> 1:05:57.360 a little fusion band, a jazz fusion band, instrumental band 1:05:58.680 --> 1:06:04.080 with some great players. And we called it software. And ironically, 1:06:04.120 --> 1:06:06.600 when the name came up, somebody, as we were trying 1:06:06.600 --> 1:06:09.240 to think of a name, said hardware. As somebody said, 1:06:09.240 --> 1:06:11.000 what about just flip it and call it software? There 1:06:11.080 --> 1:06:13.640 was no such thing as softway yet. And then some 1:06:13.720 --> 1:06:17.040 years later someone said, you still own that name? Like 1:06:17.680 --> 1:06:21.680 I don't think so. But anyway, that was that was fun. 1:06:21.720 --> 1:06:24.560 But it was you know, uh, I can't remember the 1:06:24.640 --> 1:06:28.240 name of the label. It was Ross Trout's father, the 1:06:28.280 --> 1:06:31.480 guitar player Ross Trout. It was his father, and it 1:06:31.560 --> 1:06:33.400 was like a it was for M C. A. But 1:06:33.440 --> 1:06:35.800 it was a little jazz label, and we made this 1:06:35.920 --> 1:06:40.160 simple record in in uh a garage studio that was 1:06:40.200 --> 1:06:42.360 owned by Larry Millis, who was the bass player in 1:06:42.400 --> 1:06:46.760 the Eyes of March, you know, up the street from Peterick, 1:06:46.960 --> 1:06:50.360 you know, Chicago Boys and UH. And it was a 1:06:50.440 --> 1:06:53.840 nice record. And then and then after a couple of 1:06:53.920 --> 1:06:58.600 years of jingles, UH, the weather killed me. And that's 1:06:58.760 --> 1:07:01.840 that's how I ended up calling Hawk again, saying, Hawk, 1:07:01.840 --> 1:07:03.120 I got to get out of here. And he said, 1:07:03.160 --> 1:07:05.800 I'm on the phone with one of the Jackson's about 1:07:05.800 --> 1:07:08.640 some tour. I'll call you back. And he called me back. 1:07:08.640 --> 1:07:10.160 He said, you want to audition for a tour and 1:07:10.160 --> 1:07:12.040 it was the Victory Tour. And that's what got me 1:07:12.080 --> 1:07:12.360 to LA. 1:07:13.280 --> 1:07:17.200 So now, okay, just a couple of fill in moments, yep, 1:07:17.640 --> 1:07:21.920 you have all these ups and downs ever, any middle 1:07:21.920 --> 1:07:24.880 of the night moments like what am I doing? You know, 1:07:25.400 --> 1:07:28.919 this isn't working? Or was it always? This isn't working today? 1:07:28.960 --> 1:07:30.160 But I'm staying on the path. 1:07:31.360 --> 1:07:33.720 Well, you know, in this stuff, there was a there 1:07:33.760 --> 1:07:36.320 was another little moment that I that I've forgott until 1:07:36.360 --> 1:07:41.040 you mentioned this, where I had in Larry Millis's garage. 1:07:41.720 --> 1:07:45.040 I had somebody was working with Greg Almond in Larry 1:07:45.040 --> 1:07:48.840 Millers's garage, and I came down and played on some 1:07:48.840 --> 1:07:51.320 some record of Greg Almonds, some solo record he was making. 1:07:51.360 --> 1:07:54.000 I don't even remember which one it was. And then 1:07:54.240 --> 1:07:58.280 a couple of years later, Chuck Levelle was with the 1:07:58.320 --> 1:08:01.760 Stones and the Brothers needed a keyboard player, so I 1:08:01.840 --> 1:08:05.120 went to Sarasota, Tallahassee, I can't remember which one of 1:08:05.160 --> 1:08:09.959 these towns in Florida, Jacksonville. Yeah, it spent a few 1:08:10.080 --> 1:08:11.840 a few months playing with the Almond brothers. 1:08:12.400 --> 1:08:15.560 Wait, wait, wait, yeah, Greg Alman had remembered. 1:08:16.280 --> 1:08:19.960 Yeah he did. You know Greg? 1:08:20.680 --> 1:08:21.639 I know him a little bit. 1:08:22.400 --> 1:08:24.880 Yeah, oh he What a beautiful cat, and what a 1:08:24.920 --> 1:08:29.000 great sense of humor, and what a great talent. But ultimately, 1:08:29.040 --> 1:08:31.640 the most fun thing that came out of that was 1:08:32.640 --> 1:08:35.599 at one point I was back in Chicago and that 1:08:35.840 --> 1:08:40.200 didn't work out because I won't even go into the reasons. 1:08:40.800 --> 1:08:43.320 Now, ony, wait, give you one reason, or at least. 1:08:44.080 --> 1:08:51.000 The one reason was Oh, I can't even say it. 1:08:51.560 --> 1:08:52.000 I can't. 1:08:52.360 --> 1:08:55.600 Well, let me just ask you this. You're living this 1:08:55.720 --> 1:08:59.479 parapatetic lifestyle. Is there ever any romance in these things? 1:08:59.600 --> 1:09:01.320 Or is it music. Music. Music. 1:09:03.040 --> 1:09:05.800 Yeah, there's there's romance, but the music was I'd say, 1:09:06.120 --> 1:09:08.240 you know, music is what got me out of bed 1:09:08.240 --> 1:09:08.719 in the morning. 1:09:08.840 --> 1:09:11.479 So there wasn't an issue of making a career choice 1:09:11.560 --> 1:09:12.720 based on romance. 1:09:13.240 --> 1:09:14.160 No, never, no. 1:09:15.040 --> 1:09:20.639 And was there ever an issue of drugs or alcohol. No? Okay, 1:09:20.680 --> 1:09:23.920 So you're back at Chicago and these couple of things happen. 1:09:24.760 --> 1:09:27.160 Yeah, And then I get a call from Dickie's manager 1:09:27.320 --> 1:09:31.000 saying Dickie's playing at the Park West tonight and his 1:09:31.120 --> 1:09:34.120 keyboard player got sick. Can you come play? And I said, 1:09:34.120 --> 1:09:36.080 what what it's the music? I said, it's a solo record. 1:09:36.080 --> 1:09:37.559 I said, I don't know any of the songs. I 1:09:37.560 --> 1:09:39.200 don't know any songs of this, so we will be 1:09:39.240 --> 1:09:42.200 a couple Allman Brothers songs as well. And this was 1:09:43.160 --> 1:09:46.639 a CP seventy electric Grand with a synthesizer on top 1:09:46.680 --> 1:09:48.679 of it, and I was going to play the double 1:09:48.680 --> 1:09:52.080 guitar lines on the synthesizer, and I thought, okay, this 1:09:52.120 --> 1:09:54.320 could be fun little and it was just a little 1:09:54.360 --> 1:09:56.760 tour for you know, I don't remember how many dates 1:09:56.760 --> 1:10:01.760 through the Upper Midwest, and so I said, you know, 1:10:01.920 --> 1:10:04.600 it's the gigs tonight. You know, how do we do 1:10:04.640 --> 1:10:06.479 this is a four piece band in the gigs tonight? 1:10:07.040 --> 1:10:08.840 And he said, there'll be plenty of time. You know, 1:10:08.960 --> 1:10:11.439 they're flying in at four o'clock, they'll meet hit the place. Well, 1:10:11.479 --> 1:10:14.400 their flight got held up, and so what I got 1:10:14.560 --> 1:10:17.240 was a set list with the first chord of every 1:10:17.240 --> 1:10:20.519 song and then on we go, and there was never 1:10:20.560 --> 1:10:22.840 any more beyond that because I kind of knew the 1:10:22.840 --> 1:10:25.880 Almen Brothers stuff a little bit, and so, you know, 1:10:25.920 --> 1:10:27.720 we did that for a while, but that was that 1:10:27.880 --> 1:10:29.840 was one of the more fun things I remember doing 1:10:29.840 --> 1:10:33.320 because it was just a four piece band hit it 1:10:33.360 --> 1:10:36.960 really hard, you know, and really an opportunity to play 1:10:37.000 --> 1:10:41.400 some great legendary stuff. I mean, I found a cassette 1:10:41.439 --> 1:10:43.640 a couple of years ago that I've yet to be 1:10:43.680 --> 1:10:47.000 able to rEFInd, but you know, you can hear those 1:10:47.120 --> 1:10:50.479 those double solos and I'm playing the second part near 1:10:50.520 --> 1:10:53.280 the low part on a synth in comping piano underneath, 1:10:53.280 --> 1:10:55.680 and I thought, that's that's pretty cool, you know, to 1:10:56.000 --> 1:10:58.479 have done that with with with those guys, you know. 1:10:59.320 --> 1:11:02.360 So yeah, that was another little stop along the way. 1:11:02.400 --> 1:11:06.240 Okay, so Hawk says, you interested in working with the 1:11:06.600 --> 1:11:08.160 Jackson's that. 1:11:08.120 --> 1:11:11.320 Was it was auditioning adition. 1:11:12.240 --> 1:11:15.439 That was an interesting tour, but no matter what, Michael 1:11:15.479 --> 1:11:17.360 already had a success. He was going to work with 1:11:17.400 --> 1:11:22.760 the Jacksons again. Right, this is top tier. How do 1:11:22.840 --> 1:11:25.160 you get the gig and become the music direct? 1:11:27.439 --> 1:11:30.160 Audition? Cold audition? 1:11:30.720 --> 1:11:31.839 Tell me about the audition. 1:11:32.439 --> 1:11:37.160 Okay, The audition was Leeds rehearsal in North Hollywood. And 1:11:37.640 --> 1:11:40.240 I showed up and there's a d X seven synthesizer, 1:11:40.680 --> 1:11:44.160 Yamaha keyboard, and a drum set and the drummer was 1:11:44.240 --> 1:11:50.479 Jonathan Moffatt, who I'd never met, and it was Marlon 1:11:50.760 --> 1:11:55.519 and Tito and Jackie came and they said, you know, 1:11:55.920 --> 1:11:57.719 do you know any of the songs? And I said nope, 1:11:57.760 --> 1:11:59.880 not a one. And they said, what do you want 1:11:59.880 --> 1:12:03.320 to I said, well, just jam so Jonathan and I 1:12:03.400 --> 1:12:06.720 just improvise and they talk about the DX seven and 1:12:06.760 --> 1:12:08.400 they said, do you know anything about this the city? 1:12:08.479 --> 1:12:11.840 I do because I had worked on programming it for 1:12:11.920 --> 1:12:13.920 Jingles and stuff, so I actually knew how to program 1:12:13.920 --> 1:12:16.240 a DX seven, which is a little bit like knowing 1:12:16.280 --> 1:12:17.840 how to get to the moon in a paper bag. 1:12:17.880 --> 1:12:20.000 It's an impossible thing to deal with but I knew 1:12:20.000 --> 1:12:24.240 how So that was that, and I went back to 1:12:24.320 --> 1:12:26.080 Chicago and everybody went how to go? And I said, 1:12:26.120 --> 1:12:28.760 it's not going to happen. A lot of chance. So 1:12:28.920 --> 1:12:30.599 then a couple of weeks later they call and say, 1:12:30.640 --> 1:12:31.519 we want you to come back. 1:12:31.600 --> 1:12:34.000 Wait wait, wait, wait wait, are you flying on your 1:12:34.000 --> 1:12:35.160 own dime or their dives? 1:12:35.200 --> 1:12:37.200 Flying on my own dime? But I have jingle money. 1:12:37.200 --> 1:12:39.240 Now I have jingle money, so you know we're not 1:12:39.320 --> 1:12:42.200 doing bad. So they call me back. I go back 1:12:42.200 --> 1:12:47.679 for the second audition, and it's the same keyboard, same 1:12:47.720 --> 1:12:50.639 drum set, but now there's a guitar amp and it's 1:12:50.720 --> 1:12:53.559 David Williams, you know, a guitar and a guitar player. 1:12:55.080 --> 1:12:57.400 And it was the same thing, you know, except I 1:12:57.439 --> 1:12:59.559 think this time maybe Germaine was there, but I don't 1:12:59.600 --> 1:13:03.559 really remember completely, and so we just jammed again. And 1:13:03.600 --> 1:13:05.080 then I go home and everybody goes how it goes. 1:13:05.080 --> 1:13:07.400 I goes, it's not going to happen, and I have 1:13:07.479 --> 1:13:11.880 to add this that that time. Now they're auditioning a 1:13:11.920 --> 1:13:15.000 lot of people, and I get there and there's people 1:13:15.080 --> 1:13:17.719 waiting with their road crew to set up their rigs, 1:13:18.479 --> 1:13:20.840 and I'm listening through the door and I hear you know, 1:13:21.040 --> 1:13:25.559 click click click click bit, you know, the whole bass part, 1:13:25.680 --> 1:13:27.719 all the horn sounds, and I'm like, I'm going home, 1:13:28.040 --> 1:13:30.240 you know, me tinkering out of DX seven Inc. Going 1:13:30.280 --> 1:13:33.800 to make this happen. So I go back home. A 1:13:33.880 --> 1:13:36.519 couple weeks later, somebody calls says, you got the gig. 1:13:37.280 --> 1:13:42.800 I'm like, okay, okay. So I go back and we 1:13:42.920 --> 1:13:45.320 start working on it. We start, you know, rehearsals and 1:13:45.320 --> 1:13:49.120 whatever else. And it was fairly clear from the beginning 1:13:49.120 --> 1:13:51.040 that there was a lot of stuff needed in terms 1:13:51.040 --> 1:13:54.880 of the programming and the arranging and running the rehearsals, 1:13:54.920 --> 1:13:57.320 and there was nobody to do it. So I sort 1:13:57.360 --> 1:14:02.559 of became the musical director just because there was no 1:14:02.600 --> 1:14:07.479 one else there to do that. So obviously there's a 1:14:07.479 --> 1:14:10.479 lot of experiences there, and there's enough stories there to fill, 1:14:11.479 --> 1:14:14.120 you know, a nice Scorsesey film. I mean, it's the 1:14:14.160 --> 1:14:17.200 craziest thing I've ever experienced in my life. Was at 1:14:17.200 --> 1:14:19.719 that up to that point was that tour. It was madness. 1:14:20.320 --> 1:14:21.320 But anyway, it was good fun. 1:14:21.400 --> 1:14:25.800 Okay, wait, it was an adventure. Needless to say, the 1:14:25.840 --> 1:14:30.519 tour financially for varying reasons did not work out. They 1:14:30.560 --> 1:14:35.000 were playing big places. You had experiences that many people 1:14:35.040 --> 1:14:39.040 in life never have. But was it you've been on 1:14:39.080 --> 1:14:41.840 the road since was it fun and good or was 1:14:41.880 --> 1:14:45.760 it really like this is like the middle of you know, chaos. 1:14:47.120 --> 1:14:51.120 Well, what I tell you, it's interesting because of the 1:14:51.200 --> 1:14:55.400 size of the stage and there were two complete setups. 1:14:56.320 --> 1:14:58.720 It took so long to set it up and transport 1:14:58.720 --> 1:15:01.800 it that we only played Friday and Saturday nights, and 1:15:01.840 --> 1:15:03.719 we were off during the week and you could either 1:15:03.840 --> 1:15:06.080 fly back t La or you could stay on the road. 1:15:06.520 --> 1:15:11.000 Most of the time stayed on the road, and that 1:15:11.080 --> 1:15:14.560 part was difficult because you were only playing two nights. 1:15:15.120 --> 1:15:19.040 But honestly, when the band was very good and very 1:15:19.080 --> 1:15:21.639 tight and great players and certainly the best players I'd 1:15:21.680 --> 1:15:27.599 ever played with, And when Jonathan would count off Billy 1:15:27.680 --> 1:15:29.439 Jean and start playing the beat, and I'd play the 1:15:29.479 --> 1:15:31.439 bassline and the right hand part because that was what 1:15:31.479 --> 1:15:34.639 I was doing, and I'd watch Michael dance that dance, 1:15:35.400 --> 1:15:39.000 it was like it was unreal to be part of that. 1:15:39.080 --> 1:15:43.280 And also I think the thing with Michael is when 1:15:43.320 --> 1:15:45.720 you actually got to experience what it was like to 1:15:45.760 --> 1:15:47.880 do rehearsals and do this and do that, and then 1:15:47.920 --> 1:15:51.120 show time and see just how powerful he was and 1:15:51.160 --> 1:15:54.800 how amazing and how brilliant. You know, that stuck with me, 1:15:55.360 --> 1:15:58.320 you know, because that was really something, so you know, 1:15:58.760 --> 1:15:59.960 it was a great experience. 1:16:00.120 --> 1:16:00.400 It was. 1:16:00.640 --> 1:16:05.400 It was chaos and a lot of funny anecdotal moments 1:16:05.439 --> 1:16:08.800 and a lot of weird stuff. But you know, that 1:16:08.920 --> 1:16:12.000 was my first big tour, and then I did two 1:16:12.040 --> 1:16:14.439 other tours and that's all I've ever done for tours. 1:16:21.680 --> 1:16:25.000 Okay, wait, Victory tour ends at what's the next? 1:16:26.320 --> 1:16:29.639 Who's the first Madonna tour? Virgin two? 1:16:29.640 --> 1:16:30.559 How do you get that gig? 1:16:32.400 --> 1:16:35.679 Her manager at the time called my managers and said, 1:16:37.000 --> 1:16:40.080 Madonna wants Pat to do her tour because of the 1:16:40.160 --> 1:16:40.760 Victory tour. 1:16:42.720 --> 1:16:45.040 And it was just that simple. No one had ever 1:16:45.080 --> 1:16:48.920 met anybody. Had she seen the Victory Tour. 1:16:49.800 --> 1:16:53.200 She must have or or at least, you know, knew 1:16:53.280 --> 1:16:56.680 enough about it to know that it was probably probably good. 1:16:58.680 --> 1:17:01.400 And my first reaction was, you mean the girl who 1:17:01.479 --> 1:17:03.200 rolls around on the floor in her underwear, And I said, 1:17:03.240 --> 1:17:05.840 I'm gonna pass. You know, I was hoping at this 1:17:05.840 --> 1:17:08.320 point to get into making records. You know in La, 1:17:08.840 --> 1:17:13.720 and then the idea was would you just meet with her? 1:17:14.439 --> 1:17:17.400 And I did, and she said, never done this. You're 1:17:17.439 --> 1:17:20.280 in charge, There'll be no pushback. Hire who you want. 1:17:20.960 --> 1:17:22.920 And I went, okay, you know. 1:17:23.560 --> 1:17:27.160 Oh okay. Just to be very clear, this is or 1:17:27.240 --> 1:17:29.040 before the like a virgin tour. 1:17:30.760 --> 1:17:35.479 This is the virgin tour. Okay, this is the virgin tour. 1:17:35.560 --> 1:17:38.000 This is her first tour. And this is before she 1:17:38.040 --> 1:17:40.760 and I had written a note. 1:17:39.920 --> 1:17:42.599 And the Beastie Boys are opening and it's a whole thing. 1:17:42.960 --> 1:17:45.519 Yes, yes, And every night we'd get back to our 1:17:45.560 --> 1:17:47.200 room and the shrimp and the champagne, he'd be gone 1:17:47.200 --> 1:17:49.120 and they'd be sleeping in the couch in our dressing room. 1:17:49.280 --> 1:17:53.439 I love those guys. This hysterical. Like every night they'd 1:17:53.439 --> 1:17:55.760 eat all our food and drink all our booze. 1:17:57.040 --> 1:18:03.400 Okay, she was she was the cats me out. I mean, 1:18:04.040 --> 1:18:06.799 so there were a lot of dates on that tour. 1:18:07.360 --> 1:18:10.000 Were you just in the band or did you have 1:18:10.080 --> 1:18:14.120 some sort of some potico talking about collaboration. 1:18:15.160 --> 1:18:17.360 Well, I was. I mean I was the musical director 1:18:17.400 --> 1:18:19.280 for it, so I put it together. And then what 1:18:19.439 --> 1:18:27.680 happened is during during the tour, I think or I 1:18:27.720 --> 1:18:29.360 can't remember exactly what it was. I think it might 1:18:29.400 --> 1:18:31.840 have been after the tour, before we did Oh, it 1:18:31.960 --> 1:18:35.800 was after the tour, before we did Live AID. I 1:18:35.840 --> 1:18:37.720 had a party at my house and I invited her 1:18:38.400 --> 1:18:41.320 and my parents were there, you know, and all this stuff. 1:18:41.360 --> 1:18:44.439 And she came and I showed her the little studio 1:18:44.960 --> 1:18:48.480 and I had this little track that I was recorded, 1:18:48.880 --> 1:18:51.280 and I played it for and she said, can I 1:18:51.320 --> 1:18:53.000 write to it? And I said okay, And she wrote 1:18:53.040 --> 1:18:54.680 the song that we did at Live Aid, which is 1:18:54.720 --> 1:18:57.200 called Love Mix the World Ground, and that became the 1:18:57.200 --> 1:19:02.120 first thing we wrote. And that's where the writing started. 1:19:02.280 --> 1:19:05.519 And then there's another page to that that got got 1:19:05.600 --> 1:19:07.720 us into making True Blue. 1:19:07.960 --> 1:19:08.920 What's the other page? 1:19:10.640 --> 1:19:12.600 The other page is I wanted to see if I 1:19:12.600 --> 1:19:15.400 could get into scoring films because I like making up 1:19:15.439 --> 1:19:17.280 music and I thought me, I'd like to do this, 1:19:17.360 --> 1:19:21.320 and I always felt I should, and I did enough 1:19:21.360 --> 1:19:26.680 of it to know I shouldn't, but I had. There 1:19:27.000 --> 1:19:30.560 There was a movie that my managers got me affiliated 1:19:30.600 --> 1:19:33.680 with because a friend of theirs was directing it. His 1:19:33.760 --> 1:19:36.679 name was Duncan Gibbons, and the movie was called Fire 1:19:36.880 --> 1:19:40.200 with Fire, I think, and it was Virginia Madson was 1:19:40.200 --> 1:19:43.240 starring in it, and I met with him and I 1:19:43.280 --> 1:19:45.920 watched some I watched the movie, I think, the whole thing, 1:19:46.040 --> 1:19:51.360 and then he gave me VHS cassettes to write music 1:19:51.800 --> 1:19:54.439 for it, and I wrote, let me see if I 1:19:54.439 --> 1:19:58.920 can get this to play unless year what I wrote, No, 1:19:58.960 --> 1:20:01.040 it's not going to play as it Wait, maybe it is. 1:20:03.760 --> 1:20:04.000 This. 1:20:09.120 --> 1:20:13.240 So that was my movie theme, and I asked her 1:20:13.280 --> 1:20:15.200 if she would write and the rest of the song, 1:20:15.280 --> 1:20:17.000 the rest of that song, which was live to Tell, 1:20:17.680 --> 1:20:19.920 and I asked her as a favor, she'd write the 1:20:20.000 --> 1:20:23.000 lyrics for it, because then it would really help me 1:20:23.080 --> 1:20:26.280 get this movie. And she said yes. So she was 1:20:26.320 --> 1:20:31.080 on her way to the house and my manager called 1:20:31.120 --> 1:20:33.840 and said they've hired somebody else. So no cell phones. 1:20:33.840 --> 1:20:35.439 I can't call her and turn her around. So she 1:20:35.479 --> 1:20:38.559 gets to the house and I say, sorry you ways, 1:20:38.640 --> 1:20:40.120 you know, sorry to have you drive all this way, 1:20:40.120 --> 1:20:42.559 but it's not going to happen. She said, well, Shawn's 1:20:42.600 --> 1:20:45.519 making a movie. Let me hear it. So I play 1:20:45.520 --> 1:20:50.080 it for and she writes these lyrics and she sings 1:20:50.120 --> 1:20:53.280 this vocal and we record it and she takes a 1:20:53.280 --> 1:20:57.880 cassette and I had to go to Michael's house because 1:20:57.920 --> 1:20:59.840 I was going to help Michael get some of his 1:21:00.120 --> 1:21:02.559 songs together for the Bad album. So I went to 1:21:02.640 --> 1:21:07.240 Michael's and it's Michael and Quincy, and Michael's singing to me, 1:21:07.280 --> 1:21:09.280 and I'm trying to note, going around trying to find 1:21:09.280 --> 1:21:12.719 some music, and somebody comes in and said, Sean Penn's 1:21:12.760 --> 1:21:15.800 on the phone. So I get on the phone and 1:21:15.800 --> 1:21:17.479 he says, you got to come here right now. I say, well, 1:21:17.479 --> 1:21:20.120 I can't leave right this minute, but I'll get out 1:21:20.160 --> 1:21:22.960 of here in a little while. So when I did, 1:21:23.040 --> 1:21:26.200 I went to the director's house, Jamie Foley. I think 1:21:26.240 --> 1:21:28.679 he was living in Bennett Canyon. I can't remember what canyon. 1:21:29.400 --> 1:21:31.160 And I walk in the door and Madonna's on the 1:21:31.160 --> 1:21:35.160 couch and Sean's there and Jamie's there, and Jamie said, 1:21:35.160 --> 1:21:36.479 we love the song and we want to use it 1:21:36.479 --> 1:21:38.360 in the movie. And Madonna said, who's going to sing it? 1:21:39.200 --> 1:21:40.600 We all went you're going to sing it? She goes, no, 1:21:40.680 --> 1:21:42.320 it's not right for me. It's too low. It's this, 1:21:42.400 --> 1:21:47.160 it's this, And then Jamie looked at me and said, 1:21:47.200 --> 1:21:49.360 and Madonna said, you can score my movie as well. 1:21:49.640 --> 1:21:52.040 I said, yeah, I can so, and that's this is 1:21:52.160 --> 1:21:54.439 I swear this is true. This was the same day. 1:21:55.240 --> 1:21:57.880 And here's another thing about it is that that version 1:21:57.880 --> 1:21:59.960 that we did of Live to Tell was the record. 1:22:00.280 --> 1:22:02.479 We just added to it. We never did it again. 1:22:02.560 --> 1:22:07.000 She never sang it again ever. That was it. So well, 1:22:07.000 --> 1:22:09.040 the only thing about it I like that. 1:22:09.040 --> 1:22:14.880 I love that. I just love it the way it 1:22:14.920 --> 1:22:19.479 goes down. I know. No, dude, it's funny to hear 1:22:19.560 --> 1:22:24.760 the story so accidental because I okay, so that goes 1:22:24.800 --> 1:22:29.200 into the album. Continue, how what's the next step with Madonna's. 1:22:29.240 --> 1:22:32.360 Well, the at this point there wasn't really talk of 1:22:32.439 --> 1:22:35.040 an album. That was just this song for the movie. 1:22:35.240 --> 1:22:41.800 And then Quincy, this is also strange, Quincy asked. He said, 1:22:41.840 --> 1:22:44.040 I'd like to do something with kind of a little 1:22:44.040 --> 1:22:47.000 bit of a Shadet feel for Michael, and maybe you 1:22:47.000 --> 1:22:49.280 could write something and send it. So I said, okay, 1:22:49.439 --> 1:23:02.519 So I wrote and I sent it to Quincy. He said, no, 1:23:02.680 --> 1:23:05.839 Michael doesn't like it. So I showed it to Madonna 1:23:05.840 --> 1:23:08.439 and we sit there and write Liaisla Bonita. So now 1:23:08.439 --> 1:23:13.679 we've got two songs. And then another crazy thing happened 1:23:13.960 --> 1:23:18.200 is my friend Hawk, who Hawk is in all of this. 1:23:18.320 --> 1:23:22.800 Somehow was playing on a Ted Nugent record at a 1:23:22.800 --> 1:23:26.200 little studio in Burbank and he got stung by a bee. 1:23:26.439 --> 1:23:28.840 So he called me and he said, I can't make 1:23:28.880 --> 1:23:31.200 the session because I'm all swelled up from this beasting. 1:23:31.520 --> 1:23:33.679 Can you go do the session for me? So I said, okay. 1:23:34.560 --> 1:23:36.960 So I went down and I played on whatever, I 1:23:36.960 --> 1:23:40.439 don't remember what it was, for Ted with in this 1:23:40.600 --> 1:23:43.519 little studio in Burbank with this engineer named Michael Verdict. 1:23:43.960 --> 1:23:46.240 And I walk in the room and I think, what's 1:23:46.479 --> 1:23:50.040 where's the sound coming from? It was just unbelievable sounding, right, 1:23:51.120 --> 1:23:56.400 So that's done. Now, that's gone. And then Madonna said 1:23:56.400 --> 1:23:59.200 maybe we could record these songs somewhere and I said, well, 1:23:59.240 --> 1:24:03.080 I know where, and it just we got in there 1:24:03.080 --> 1:24:05.960 and it just turned into writing another song and writing 1:24:06.000 --> 1:24:08.800 another song and writing another song, and pretty soon we 1:24:08.800 --> 1:24:14.679 were done, and it was true blue and a little 1:24:14.720 --> 1:24:18.840 tiny shithole in Burbank, and you know one of the 1:24:18.880 --> 1:24:21.360 greatest sets of yours ever, which is Michael Verdict, And 1:24:22.280 --> 1:24:26.120 it just happened that way. And the songs were written 1:24:26.200 --> 1:24:31.960 very quickly, like always, and recorded just as quick and. 1:24:33.640 --> 1:24:37.959 Okay, what headspace are you at this point. You've been playing, 1:24:38.080 --> 1:24:41.080 you're doing jingles. Now you're out with Michael Jackson and 1:24:41.120 --> 1:24:45.400 the Jacksons, you're out with Madonna, you're with Q. You 1:24:45.439 --> 1:24:47.240 feel like a part of this or you feel like 1:24:47.240 --> 1:24:48.000 an impostor. 1:24:50.360 --> 1:24:52.200 No, I don't think I felt like an impostor. I 1:24:52.200 --> 1:24:54.679 mean the other part of it is in those days, 1:24:55.360 --> 1:24:59.360 part of this was Yamaha, who sponsored the Victory Tour. 1:25:00.000 --> 1:25:03.160 A man named Doug Buttleman, who's a deer man, was 1:25:03.640 --> 1:25:07.479 deeply supportive of me in those days. Also then got 1:25:07.520 --> 1:25:11.200 Yamaha to supply the Virgin Tour, and the other group 1:25:11.240 --> 1:25:13.439 of people that were being supported by Yamaha were the 1:25:13.479 --> 1:25:19.000 Toto guys. So through all the stuff that happens, the 1:25:19.040 --> 1:25:22.519 network that was kind of the network, you know. I 1:25:22.520 --> 1:25:25.280 got invited to a couple of parties and was later 1:25:25.360 --> 1:25:27.320 told stories where someone when who was this kid, like, 1:25:27.360 --> 1:25:29.320 what was this kid doing it? You know, and it 1:25:29.400 --> 1:25:31.479 was Jeff. Jeff said no, he's all right. Jeff Pica 1:25:31.600 --> 1:25:33.800 said no, he's all right, and it was he was. 1:25:33.880 --> 1:25:36.559 Jeff was kind of in those days certainly kind of 1:25:36.560 --> 1:25:39.880 the godfather of the session scene. And I think, you know, 1:25:40.120 --> 1:25:44.400 for whatever reason, Jeff felt like I could hang and 1:25:44.479 --> 1:25:45.920 I think that was a big part of it. 1:25:46.479 --> 1:25:47.519 How'd you know Butterman? 1:25:48.920 --> 1:25:53.400 Buttleman was the Jackson Tour, the Victory Tour because Yamaha 1:25:53.760 --> 1:25:57.120 supported the Victory Tour and it was all d X seven's. 1:25:57.120 --> 1:25:59.240 There was twenty seven ors, I mean DX seven's on 1:25:59.280 --> 1:26:03.840 stage and Grandam and so you know that made me 1:26:04.000 --> 1:26:06.519 I'm hardest and a lot of those sounds ended up, 1:26:07.080 --> 1:26:09.519 you know, all the DX sevens from then on. They 1:26:09.560 --> 1:26:12.080 were just part of the patches. But like the horn 1:26:12.160 --> 1:26:14.400 sounds and bass sounds and some of that stuff. 1:26:14.240 --> 1:26:18.599 I don't know that part of his career, but that's interesting, Okay, yea. 1:26:19.600 --> 1:26:23.559 What is Madonna's attitude when you're doing True Blue? Is 1:26:23.600 --> 1:26:26.519 it like I'm on top of the world. I can 1:26:26.600 --> 1:26:29.960 do no wrong, or like, you know, holy fuck, we 1:26:30.040 --> 1:26:32.400 better get this right, or I'm just doing this today. 1:26:32.400 --> 1:26:33.920 I could be doing something else tomorrow. 1:26:35.840 --> 1:26:38.120 It's good. It's good. It's good to think about. I 1:26:38.120 --> 1:26:42.760 think the the one thing amongst many things that I 1:26:42.760 --> 1:26:45.360 would say about Madonna and her work, ethic and her 1:26:45.400 --> 1:26:50.640 abilities is there was never a second guess, never was it. 1:26:50.680 --> 1:26:52.200 Like I don't know about this. I don't know about this. 1:26:52.280 --> 1:26:54.800 It either was or it wasn't, and we were just 1:26:54.880 --> 1:26:58.360 moving forward. And I could say that with a clear conscience. 1:26:58.400 --> 1:27:01.640 It was never any know nothing about I don't know 1:27:01.680 --> 1:27:04.360 about this. I don't know about this. If we were 1:27:04.400 --> 1:27:06.640 doing it, we were doing it, and it was the 1:27:06.680 --> 1:27:11.400 same for all the work we did. It was just done, 1:27:11.600 --> 1:27:11.800 you know. 1:27:12.040 --> 1:27:17.439 Okay, so the record is finished, the record comes out. 1:27:17.560 --> 1:27:19.960 What is your experience of the record coming out? 1:27:24.040 --> 1:27:26.320 Remember what I said earlier. It's like my experience was 1:27:26.360 --> 1:27:29.599 way to hear the next one. That's how I felt 1:27:29.640 --> 1:27:31.600 about it. Oh okay. The other thing that happened is 1:27:31.640 --> 1:27:34.400 I had done a close range so I had this 1:27:34.520 --> 1:27:38.960 movie score that I had done from the song, and 1:27:39.040 --> 1:27:40.800 I think there was some there was a little bit 1:27:40.800 --> 1:27:42.280 of fun in that. There was a little bit of 1:27:42.280 --> 1:27:47.320 fun that there was a movie with this theme. But 1:27:47.600 --> 1:27:51.160 you know, honestly, really it's really the truth. I'm just 1:27:51.200 --> 1:27:54.040 getting up in the morning and writing music, and I 1:27:54.040 --> 1:27:55.640 always feel like it's going to be better than the 1:27:55.720 --> 1:27:58.280 last thing I wrote. Oh Okay, it's terrible, isn't it. 1:27:58.280 --> 1:27:58.920 It's terrible. 1:27:59.200 --> 1:28:01.920 You said you did big tours, so you went out 1:28:01.960 --> 1:28:04.719 on true Blue. 1:28:05.080 --> 1:28:09.040 Yes, I was musical director for for the what was 1:28:09.040 --> 1:28:12.320 called Who's That Girl to her right, which was True 1:28:12.320 --> 1:28:13.479 Blue and Who's That Girl? 1:28:13.840 --> 1:28:21.200 Okay, the next album. You know, my favorite song on 1:28:21.240 --> 1:28:23.679 the next album is Cherish. Can you tell me anything 1:28:23.720 --> 1:28:25.600 about Cherish? 1:28:26.040 --> 1:28:28.040 Yes, that she didn't like it, that's the only one. 1:28:28.040 --> 1:28:30.360 She didn't like it. But we did it. We did it, 1:28:30.439 --> 1:28:32.920 and she and she she did. She went along with it. 1:28:32.960 --> 1:28:36.639 But you know, for some of the promo and stuff 1:28:36.680 --> 1:28:38.639 I'm doing now, I've been learning some of these songs 1:28:38.640 --> 1:28:40.200 again just so I can play them and sing them 1:28:40.200 --> 1:28:43.280 and kind of get through them. And Cherish is Cherish 1:28:43.360 --> 1:28:47.280 is deep. Cherish is like it's deep harmonically, and it 1:28:47.320 --> 1:28:49.240 was a shuffle and it was all these things that 1:28:49.280 --> 1:28:52.960 were I think me sneaking shit, you know, in there. 1:28:55.280 --> 1:28:57.360 But yeah, I think Cherish is a monster. And Cherish 1:28:57.439 --> 1:29:00.960 was done. The way we cut Cherish was the bass part. 1:29:01.000 --> 1:29:04.080 I put the piano part down and then the bass 1:29:04.120 --> 1:29:06.519 part and the guitar part and the drums, which were myself, 1:29:06.600 --> 1:29:09.880 David Williams, and Jeff Karr. We played live, so we 1:29:09.920 --> 1:29:13.040 did the rhythm section to that degree live And when 1:29:13.080 --> 1:29:14.760 I listened to that, I think It's just some of 1:29:14.800 --> 1:29:17.679 the best playing I've ever done. And I'm just playing bass. 1:29:17.720 --> 1:29:19.720 But it was like what a track man. And to 1:29:19.800 --> 1:29:21.559 sit in the room with those two guys, I mean 1:29:22.200 --> 1:29:24.120 there was more rhythm between those two guys than kind 1:29:24.120 --> 1:29:27.000 of the rest of the world put together, you know. 1:29:27.479 --> 1:29:28.639 So it is a real joy. 1:29:29.240 --> 1:29:31.479 Okay, the previous album was a little bit of a lark, 1:29:31.960 --> 1:29:34.240 you know, it started a different thing. Now when it 1:29:34.320 --> 1:29:38.040 comes to make another record, the like a prayer record, Yeah, 1:29:38.680 --> 1:29:41.040 is it more planned out? Does she call you and say, hey, 1:29:41.040 --> 1:29:43.320 we're gonna write, We're gonna do this. How do you 1:29:43.360 --> 1:29:44.400 write the songs for that? 1:29:47.000 --> 1:29:50.080 At that point, I had the studio, the True Bil 1:29:50.400 --> 1:29:52.360 True Blue Bilt. So I had owned studio which was 1:29:52.400 --> 1:29:58.240 Johnny Eumer Recording down on Hollywood Way and in Burbank 1:29:58.920 --> 1:30:02.320 and very set up. My stuff was very set up, 1:30:02.400 --> 1:30:06.479 and so I I had an MPC sequencer, which was 1:30:06.479 --> 1:30:10.639 the first Akai sequencer, and a bunch of synthesizers. And 1:30:11.000 --> 1:30:13.160 I would go down there very early in the morning 1:30:13.479 --> 1:30:15.280 because I had a little gym in there, and I 1:30:15.360 --> 1:30:17.799 was at that point taking way better care of myself 1:30:17.800 --> 1:30:19.760 than I am now. And I would go in and 1:30:19.760 --> 1:30:23.360 meet with a trainer and work out, and then at 1:30:23.400 --> 1:30:26.840 about nine I'd go into the studio and write, and 1:30:26.880 --> 1:30:29.519 I'd write from nine till eleven when she would show 1:30:29.600 --> 1:30:31.519 up and I would show her what I'd written and 1:30:31.560 --> 1:30:33.479 she would write the lyrics and sing it. And we 1:30:33.520 --> 1:30:34.960 did it the next day and the next day and 1:30:35.000 --> 1:30:37.240 the next day, and in two weeks we'd written like 1:30:37.280 --> 1:30:39.040 a prayer the whole album. 1:30:39.360 --> 1:30:44.040 Okay, was it like Elton? Once she committed to the melody, 1:30:44.120 --> 1:30:46.400 that was it. There was no second guessing. 1:30:47.200 --> 1:30:50.519 No second guessing. I mean, I'll tell you something that 1:30:50.520 --> 1:30:53.040 most people won't really believe, but I swear it's true 1:30:54.160 --> 1:30:58.120 every one of those songs, everyone except oh Father, because 1:30:58.120 --> 1:31:00.920 we did it a different way when she wrote it 1:31:01.080 --> 1:31:03.519 that morning, when she wrote those lyrics and I had 1:31:03.520 --> 1:31:05.479 written that music, and she went in and sang it. 1:31:05.720 --> 1:31:09.240 She never sang them again, just like Live to Tell 1:31:09.320 --> 1:31:11.439 It's the only time she sang it. Those were her 1:31:11.479 --> 1:31:13.200 lead vocals, and they were done. 1:31:14.439 --> 1:31:17.080 Well. How many puncheons in that type of stuff? 1:31:17.720 --> 1:31:22.400 Uh huh uh huh No sing it twice. That's it. 1:31:22.960 --> 1:31:26.720 I'm telling you. So people could say whatever they want. Man, 1:31:26.960 --> 1:31:29.639 you know, this chick could really nail it. She really 1:31:29.680 --> 1:31:30.880 could nail it, you know. 1:31:38.880 --> 1:31:43.080 Okay, needless to say, there's a lot of money being generated. 1:31:44.439 --> 1:31:48.280 Who's making your deals? And are they giving you like 1:31:48.360 --> 1:31:50.720 are they letting you have half the publishing or do 1:31:50.760 --> 1:31:52.680 they just want to give you the writer's share? I mean, 1:31:53.120 --> 1:31:55.840 who's looking after you? And how fair is all this? 1:31:57.640 --> 1:32:01.439 Mark Hartley and Larry Fitzgerald were my manager and nobody 1:32:01.520 --> 1:32:04.439 took anything. I got it. I got everything, you know, like, 1:32:04.880 --> 1:32:07.559 no one took any publishing, no one, no, there was 1:32:07.600 --> 1:32:09.320 no there was not ever even any talk of any 1:32:09.320 --> 1:32:14.600 of that because I think the the value of the 1:32:14.640 --> 1:32:18.080 cap collaboration proved itself on True Blue, you know, it 1:32:18.120 --> 1:32:18.599 really did. 1:32:18.800 --> 1:32:22.320 And then in terms of production usually it's four, it 1:32:22.320 --> 1:32:24.519 could be three, it could be five. Did you get 1:32:24.520 --> 1:32:26.959 half of the production money credit to Yeah? 1:32:27.040 --> 1:32:29.960 Yeah, okay, you know there was there was There was 1:32:30.000 --> 1:32:32.519 like four points and I think I got two and 1:32:32.520 --> 1:32:32.880 a half. 1:32:33.080 --> 1:32:37.000 Wow. You know, So the money comes in, what do 1:32:37.080 --> 1:32:38.040 you do with the money? 1:32:40.280 --> 1:32:40.800 Buy shit? 1:32:41.160 --> 1:32:43.679 Bob? You buy shit? What shit? Did you buy? 1:32:44.000 --> 1:32:47.320 Frivolution stuff? No studio stuff? I mean I bought a 1:32:47.320 --> 1:32:50.000 sports car and I you know, I bought a sports car. 1:32:50.800 --> 1:32:54.599 It wasn't my thing, you know, still isn't okay. 1:32:54.760 --> 1:32:56.800 So that's a lot of money. Where did you spend 1:32:56.840 --> 1:32:58.800 the money? Do you invest? You buy real estate? What'd 1:32:58.800 --> 1:32:59.320 you do with it? 1:33:00.400 --> 1:33:03.080 Well, there was business, there was business managers at the time, 1:33:03.240 --> 1:33:08.720 and you know, it just it just most of it 1:33:08.840 --> 1:33:10.400 just got saved. I guess, you know. 1:33:10.800 --> 1:33:13.760 Okay, So the like of prayer is done. Does she 1:33:13.880 --> 1:33:15.559 want you to go back on the road? And you 1:33:15.600 --> 1:33:16.000 say no. 1:33:18.000 --> 1:33:24.640 Exactly, and and so what happened was I, uh mo, 1:33:24.840 --> 1:33:28.880 Austin called me and said, you earned Warner Brothers like 1:33:28.880 --> 1:33:30.800 a half a billion dollars in the last year. Would 1:33:30.800 --> 1:33:34.200 you would you like anything? You know, he said, like, 1:33:34.200 --> 1:33:36.560 do you want an office in the building? Do you want? 1:33:36.960 --> 1:33:39.800 I said, I'd like to make my own record, which 1:33:39.840 --> 1:33:45.759 was Toy Matinee. And so I started writing that music 1:33:45.800 --> 1:33:49.000 and putting that together for myself. And then she wanted 1:33:49.040 --> 1:33:55.000 to do that tour and I said I wouldn't. She 1:33:55.000 --> 1:33:57.320 asked me if I would help her audition the musicians. 1:33:57.320 --> 1:33:59.439 So I did so. When I was doing the Toy 1:33:59.439 --> 1:34:02.160 Mattanee Wreck, I was kind of going in the mornings 1:34:02.680 --> 1:34:04.960 or afternoons or whatever it was. I don't remember it 1:34:05.040 --> 1:34:07.760 wasn't long. It was a couple of weeks, just to 1:34:07.800 --> 1:34:11.600 help her with auditions, and you know that was that 1:34:11.720 --> 1:34:12.000 was that? 1:34:12.560 --> 1:34:15.760 Okay, the fact that you did not go on the 1:34:15.840 --> 1:34:19.320 road with her, did that affect your relationship with her 1:34:19.800 --> 1:34:21.479 creatively in working with her? 1:34:23.200 --> 1:34:25.639 Well, I think you know after and I don't really 1:34:25.720 --> 1:34:29.840 remember the chronology, but the other record that we did 1:34:29.840 --> 1:34:33.040 around that time was Breathless was I'm Breathless for the 1:34:33.120 --> 1:34:38.000 Dick Tracy movie. And that was a record where they said, 1:34:38.720 --> 1:34:40.840 you know, Sondheim's written three songs and we want a 1:34:40.880 --> 1:34:44.080 whole album, and we got three weeks. So we basically 1:34:44.120 --> 1:34:46.439 wrote all those songs and recorded them all with big 1:34:46.439 --> 1:34:52.160 bands and everything else in just a few weeks. And 1:34:52.200 --> 1:34:57.160 then after that, there was I scored a movie called 1:34:57.160 --> 1:35:01.360 with Honors and Richard Page, and I started a song 1:35:01.400 --> 1:35:06.400 called I Remember, I'll Remember, and I think Madonna came 1:35:06.439 --> 1:35:10.600 in and finished it up and sang it, which was 1:35:10.680 --> 1:35:12.640 just another thing that I just asked her, Oh, I 1:35:12.680 --> 1:35:16.120 know why because the director was a friend of hers. 1:35:16.840 --> 1:35:18.880 The guy who directed with Honors was a friend of her, 1:35:18.960 --> 1:35:21.360 So that's why she did it. And you know that 1:35:21.360 --> 1:35:23.040 that was one of those another one of those things. 1:35:23.040 --> 1:35:25.599 It was done in an afternoon and was a number 1:35:25.640 --> 1:35:29.960 one record, and then after that we didn't work again 1:35:30.040 --> 1:35:31.360 until real light. 1:35:32.200 --> 1:35:36.080 Okay, let's pause that. Now we're on Toy Bat. They 1:35:36.320 --> 1:35:38.720 good experience, bad experience? What was it? 1:35:40.400 --> 1:35:42.879 Well, it was it was. It was a great experience. 1:35:42.920 --> 1:35:45.400 You know, I got I got to pick my musicians 1:35:45.680 --> 1:35:50.800 and make the record I wanted to make. You know, 1:35:50.920 --> 1:35:54.720 no one's going to say a word, and truthfully, I 1:35:54.840 --> 1:35:57.400 leave this out of this, but in all of this work, 1:35:57.439 --> 1:35:59.439 there was nobody ever saying a word. There was never 1:35:59.479 --> 1:36:02.000 a record company coming in saying nothing. No one ever 1:36:02.000 --> 1:36:05.880 said a word ever, not one occasion. There was fear, 1:36:06.479 --> 1:36:08.559 you know, when we wanted when she wanted to release 1:36:08.640 --> 1:36:10.679 Live to tell Us, the first single from True Blue, 1:36:10.720 --> 1:36:12.800 there was fear, and the same when she wanted to 1:36:12.800 --> 1:36:15.519 reach like a prayer, because it stopped and it started, 1:36:15.560 --> 1:36:18.400 and it was such a strange piece of work, you know, 1:36:18.439 --> 1:36:20.799 as the first single, everybody was a little bit worried, 1:36:20.840 --> 1:36:23.080 but they weren't didn't have to worry for that long, 1:36:25.640 --> 1:36:29.000 you know, so there was never any second guessing about 1:36:29.000 --> 1:36:29.400 any of it. 1:36:30.479 --> 1:36:32.120 Well, how long did it take you to make the 1:36:32.160 --> 1:36:34.880 toy mattin a record and when you delivered it, what 1:36:34.920 --> 1:36:35.479 did they say? 1:36:38.040 --> 1:36:40.559 I think, you know, in those days, records took three months, 1:36:40.760 --> 1:36:42.320 you know, and it was one of those things where 1:36:42.360 --> 1:36:44.000 it was a little there was a little bit of 1:36:44.000 --> 1:36:47.600 a for me what I always called just a Midwestern 1:36:47.640 --> 1:36:51.280 work ethic, you know, because you had a budget and 1:36:51.320 --> 1:36:54.120 you had a delivery date, so you knew what you're 1:36:54.160 --> 1:36:56.160 you knew what you were where you were shooting, you know, 1:36:56.720 --> 1:37:02.120 unlike this record I just made, which stuck forerever so, 1:37:02.240 --> 1:37:04.639 but you knew. And I'm pretty sure if I were 1:37:04.680 --> 1:37:06.360 to go back and look, and I have a bunch 1:37:06.400 --> 1:37:09.040 of dats here with you know, these old things, you know, 1:37:09.360 --> 1:37:11.000 you know these we're not gonna no one else can 1:37:11.040 --> 1:37:14.240 see them, but these little digital audio tapes, right, and 1:37:14.280 --> 1:37:16.599 that they were They were what we were, you know, 1:37:16.760 --> 1:37:19.439 keeping rough mixes on. And if I go back and 1:37:19.479 --> 1:37:21.559 look at dates, you can kind of see when these 1:37:21.600 --> 1:37:24.400 things happened. And there was probably three months, maybe four, 1:37:26.280 --> 1:37:31.439 and then and then after that, I didn't plan on 1:37:31.479 --> 1:37:35.040 touring in or doing anything like that. I went to 1:37:35.479 --> 1:37:37.879 I went to do Amuse to Death with Roger Waters, 1:37:38.479 --> 1:37:40.720 and the singer put his own band together and went 1:37:40.760 --> 1:37:43.040 out and called the toy Mattine even though it kind 1:37:43.040 --> 1:37:46.160 of really wasn't, and bless his heart, I'm glad he 1:37:46.240 --> 1:37:48.880 promoted it, but that wasn't the idea. 1:37:50.439 --> 1:37:54.360 Okay, do you feel that Warner Brothers gave the record 1:37:54.439 --> 1:37:55.760 a good enough shot? 1:37:58.880 --> 1:38:00.960 I'll say something really weird. It didn't matter to me. 1:38:02.160 --> 1:38:05.160 I just wanted to make the record. I really just 1:38:05.200 --> 1:38:08.080 wanted to make the record. I don't think it got 1:38:08.080 --> 1:38:09.640 that good of a shot. And I think part of 1:38:09.640 --> 1:38:14.680 that is because the entity that was my idea of 1:38:14.720 --> 1:38:18.479 having a band, when it got to the actual like Okay, 1:38:18.479 --> 1:38:20.040 now we're going to have to do a contract and 1:38:20.080 --> 1:38:24.960 be a band, people didn't want to do that. They 1:38:25.360 --> 1:38:28.160 didn't want to commit to it. So the band ended 1:38:28.240 --> 1:38:30.600 up being me and Kevin, and that really wasn't what 1:38:30.680 --> 1:38:36.400 the band was. And so the idea of this being 1:38:36.439 --> 1:38:38.000 what I do for a year and now or two 1:38:38.080 --> 1:38:41.000 years or however long it's going to be, it didn't 1:38:41.040 --> 1:38:42.920 have an appeal to me. I was kind of like, well, 1:38:42.960 --> 1:38:45.400 I'm just going to go back in the studio. And 1:38:45.439 --> 1:38:48.280 then I met with Roger and had this opportunity to 1:38:48.320 --> 1:38:51.920 do amused to death and couldn't say no to that? 1:38:52.520 --> 1:38:53.920 And how did you meet Bill Patrell? 1:38:56.880 --> 1:39:02.240 How did I meet Bill? I don't remember how I 1:39:02.280 --> 1:39:05.920 met him, but you know, I know that I think 1:39:06.000 --> 1:39:08.880 the first time we worked together was when he engineered 1:39:08.920 --> 1:39:15.240 like a prayer and I would say with a clear 1:39:15.320 --> 1:39:17.240 conscience that he's the best that's ever done it. 1:39:18.960 --> 1:39:19.439 Wow. 1:39:20.520 --> 1:39:22.759 Yeah, I think Bill has the best years of anybody 1:39:22.760 --> 1:39:25.439 that's ever done it. And I really mean that. 1:39:25.520 --> 1:39:28.599 Okay, So you finish with Roger Waters and used to Death, 1:39:29.439 --> 1:39:29.840 then what. 1:39:33.320 --> 1:39:36.799 Let me see where are we? I think Third Matinee, 1:39:37.040 --> 1:39:41.080 which was another one of those semi vanity projects, and 1:39:41.120 --> 1:39:42.360 this one was with Richard. 1:39:42.080 --> 1:39:45.360 Page and was this with Warner Brothers again? 1:39:46.200 --> 1:39:49.160 It was yeah, less of a band thing. 1:39:49.120 --> 1:39:50.840 Were they as he hands off as they were the 1:39:50.880 --> 1:39:51.200 first on? 1:39:52.080 --> 1:39:55.560 Absolutely? Yeah? Yeah? 1:39:55.680 --> 1:39:59.160 Okay. How do you end up working with Brian Ferry? 1:40:04.479 --> 1:40:07.200 I don't remember how that started or how it came, 1:40:09.240 --> 1:40:11.920 but it was right after True Blue. I had just 1:40:12.280 --> 1:40:14.400 finished True Blue, I think it had just come out, 1:40:15.680 --> 1:40:17.640 and I don't remember how it turned up, but I 1:40:17.680 --> 1:40:20.720 remember that, you know, Bryan and I worked in the 1:40:20.760 --> 1:40:23.000 family room of the house, just like we weren't on 1:40:23.120 --> 1:40:26.120 True Blue. You know, it was just a little tape 1:40:26.160 --> 1:40:27.960 machine and a little board in the in the house, 1:40:29.760 --> 1:40:31.479 and we did a lot of it in the house 1:40:31.520 --> 1:40:35.960 and some of it in you know, in studios. And 1:40:36.000 --> 1:40:37.839 then like I say that little you know, the Gilmore 1:40:37.880 --> 1:40:40.720 thing to England, but Lion's share of that was in 1:40:40.760 --> 1:40:41.080 the house. 1:40:41.160 --> 1:40:43.560 Okay. I have to bring up a track that I 1:40:43.720 --> 1:40:45.960 happened to love. It was unknown for a long time, 1:40:46.000 --> 1:40:50.160 but then it was released again in the initial Fleetwood 1:40:50.200 --> 1:40:55.200 Mac box set, the original song love Shines. I adore 1:40:55.280 --> 1:40:57.760 that track. Tell me the backstory there? 1:40:59.479 --> 1:40:59.799 Wow? 1:41:00.760 --> 1:41:02.040 Did I do that? Yes? 1:41:02.240 --> 1:41:03.160 Does it say I did that? 1:41:03.880 --> 1:41:06.000 So maybe if you can't remember, there's no story. 1:41:06.600 --> 1:41:10.559 Well, this this the Fleetwood Mac moment in the studio, 1:41:11.840 --> 1:41:16.200 and that time period was absolutely mad. I mean they were, 1:41:16.640 --> 1:41:22.160 they were mad. I think Lindsay was not there, and uh, 1:41:23.000 --> 1:41:25.879 Christine was solid and beautiful and they were all beautiful. 1:41:25.920 --> 1:41:30.680 It was just it was. It wasn't easy, but it 1:41:30.720 --> 1:41:34.080 wasn't hard either and there and they're they're lovely folks 1:41:34.120 --> 1:41:41.760 and so it had its challenges, I remember them. But 1:41:41.880 --> 1:41:43.559 we did it. We got there, you know. 1:41:43.920 --> 1:41:48.400 Okay, So you've had all this huge success, are you 1:41:48.560 --> 1:41:49.960 saying no to a lot of people. 1:41:52.320 --> 1:41:55.400 Not no, no, there's no one's asking, which I'm grateful for. 1:41:55.560 --> 1:41:57.320 No, no, no, then no, no, I'm talking about that 1:41:57.920 --> 1:41:58.639 in the eighties. 1:41:58.680 --> 1:42:02.479 And then yeah, I think when when I was doing 1:42:02.520 --> 1:42:06.120 Amused to Death, which took me almost two years. When 1:42:06.160 --> 1:42:09.120 I say we, I mean me, I mean us. We 1:42:09.160 --> 1:42:13.559 worked on it for a long time. I think I 1:42:13.680 --> 1:42:19.120 probably turned down is the wrong word, because I don't 1:42:19.120 --> 1:42:22.360 think I ever did that. But I remember my manager 1:42:22.479 --> 1:42:25.679 saying that I was being offered just about every record 1:42:25.720 --> 1:42:28.519 that was being made at the time, you know, mostly 1:42:28.560 --> 1:42:31.240 just because of like a prayer, you know. I think 1:42:31.280 --> 1:42:34.000 most of those people would have not been good fits 1:42:34.040 --> 1:42:38.040 for me. I'm a little odd, but yeah, there was 1:42:38.080 --> 1:42:40.320 a lot of work that I didn't do, and and 1:42:40.600 --> 1:42:42.559 it's always been my nature. I don't I don't have 1:42:42.600 --> 1:42:45.960 one of these, you know, seventy five album discographies, you know, 1:42:46.000 --> 1:42:46.680 I don't. 1:42:46.920 --> 1:42:49.760 Okay, how do you does Madonna get you involved in 1:42:49.840 --> 1:42:50.400 Ray of Light? 1:42:54.280 --> 1:42:56.120 I think she, I think she, you know, at the 1:42:56.160 --> 1:42:58.839 time of faxing was big and I got a fax 1:42:58.920 --> 1:43:01.960 from her saying, you know, it's been a lot of years, 1:43:02.000 --> 1:43:03.840 but I think it'd be nice to work together again. 1:43:05.920 --> 1:43:10.720 And she asked me she said, I'm trying to I 1:43:10.760 --> 1:43:14.400 want to write a song that's nine inch Nails meets 1:43:14.880 --> 1:43:20.040 the English Patient, And I wrote Frozen and sent it 1:43:20.080 --> 1:43:21.600 to her and she went, great, let's go. So we 1:43:21.640 --> 1:43:27.280 went to Florida to some studio in Florida, Gloya Estavs 1:43:27.640 --> 1:43:32.880 Stefanse Studio and wrote you know, the line's share of 1:43:32.920 --> 1:43:35.320 the songs on that record in a couple of weeks, 1:43:37.080 --> 1:43:41.559 and then she met William Orbit or heard his stuff 1:43:41.640 --> 1:43:44.519 or something and asked if I would be okay with 1:43:44.600 --> 1:43:47.559 him doing this and I could, you could just kind 1:43:47.560 --> 1:43:50.360 of oversee it and be there to make sure everything 1:43:50.400 --> 1:43:52.240 was okay, and you know, what was I going to say? 1:43:53.280 --> 1:43:55.040 And I think it was a right decision. She made 1:43:55.040 --> 1:43:58.479 a great decision. Though. I've recently found the demos that 1:43:58.520 --> 1:44:00.920 we did, and they had their own thing, just like 1:44:01.439 --> 1:44:04.160 all our stuff did, because basically all the records were 1:44:04.560 --> 1:44:05.880 essentially demos. 1:44:06.280 --> 1:44:08.840 You know. Okay, how did you get hooked up with Elton? 1:44:12.800 --> 1:44:18.320 I think Elton was through dream Works for the Road 1:44:18.360 --> 1:44:23.959 Del Dorado, and I don't really remember how that came about. 1:44:24.240 --> 1:44:25.880 I think it might have been the Austins, you know, 1:44:25.920 --> 1:44:30.880 Michael Austin, because DreamWorks was associated with them, and so 1:44:31.040 --> 1:44:34.320 I think I was hired to produce the soundtrack for 1:44:34.439 --> 1:44:38.920 that movie, for the animated Road del Dorado that Elton 1:44:39.000 --> 1:44:43.719 was writing with Tim Rice, if I remember correctly, and 1:44:44.120 --> 1:44:46.240 that's how we got hooked up. And I produced that 1:44:46.360 --> 1:44:49.720 with him and it was amazing, but there was no 1:44:49.800 --> 1:44:53.280 writing in it other than Somewhere out of the Blue, 1:44:53.320 --> 1:44:55.720 which I think was the single. I had written the 1:44:55.800 --> 1:45:00.040 music for that, and Tim wrote a lyric and and 1:45:00.080 --> 1:45:05.200 wrote the melody, and I don't remember if I don't 1:45:05.200 --> 1:45:08.439 remember if it went if I saw the lyric and 1:45:08.479 --> 1:45:10.439 I wrote to the lyric, I don't think so I did. 1:45:10.640 --> 1:45:13.519 I think I just wrote something and showed it Delton 1:45:13.520 --> 1:45:16.840 and it became that song. And then after that, you know, 1:45:16.880 --> 1:45:18.599 he asked me to do songs on the West Coast. 1:45:19.760 --> 1:45:23.320 And did you feel left out when he moved on 1:45:23.479 --> 1:45:26.360 from you? No? 1:45:26.360 --> 1:45:29.200 No, I didn't. I mean, I you know, we're still 1:45:29.240 --> 1:45:31.040 in touch, and I did, like I said, we did 1:45:31.040 --> 1:45:34.400 this thing last October, and I just I love him, 1:45:34.600 --> 1:45:37.599 and you know, I'm grateful that he's in my life 1:45:37.600 --> 1:45:37.880 at all. 1:45:38.040 --> 1:45:44.360 You know. So, how did you hook up with Leonard Cullen? Uh? 1:45:45.360 --> 1:45:49.960 His son Adam and I. Adam had asked me to 1:45:50.040 --> 1:45:53.360 work on a band project that he was that he 1:45:53.400 --> 1:45:56.559 was in called Low Millions, and I don't know how 1:45:56.800 --> 1:45:59.559 that happened, but I think I worked on a few 1:45:59.600 --> 1:46:04.760 songs for the Low Millions project, and then some time 1:46:04.840 --> 1:46:06.840 after that, I think it might have been even a 1:46:06.880 --> 1:46:10.320 couple of years after that, I don't remember exactly, Adam 1:46:10.960 --> 1:46:12.840 asked me if I would produce an album for him, 1:46:13.680 --> 1:46:18.519 and we made an album called Like a Man, and 1:46:20.080 --> 1:46:24.599 it was that my my deal with the record is yes, 1:46:24.640 --> 1:46:29.360 I will, but it's my way completely, no pushback, zero, 1:46:29.520 --> 1:46:32.040 It's just my way. And he agreed to it, and 1:46:32.080 --> 1:46:35.439 he was good for his word. So I had him 1:46:35.640 --> 1:46:39.400 in very uncomfortable you know places, tapping the time on 1:46:39.479 --> 1:46:41.320 his mic stand while he played the guitar and sang 1:46:41.360 --> 1:46:43.760 the vocal live, whether he likes it or not, you know, 1:46:44.520 --> 1:46:46.080 until he could get it, and I think it was 1:46:46.400 --> 1:46:48.320 it was a very strong piece of work as a 1:46:48.360 --> 1:46:54.639 result of the torture. And his dad heard it and said, 1:46:54.680 --> 1:46:58.680 I'd like to meet this guy, and we did. We met, 1:46:58.720 --> 1:47:02.120 and then we you know, we started writing songs. He 1:47:02.200 --> 1:47:04.600 gave me lyrics and I'd write to it, you know, 1:47:05.000 --> 1:47:08.360 and that's how that started. And then we spent a 1:47:08.400 --> 1:47:09.240 lot of years together. 1:47:16.840 --> 1:47:21.479 Okay, Leonard went through varying periods in his career. This 1:47:21.800 --> 1:47:24.160 is the time when all of a sudden he's booked 1:47:24.200 --> 1:47:27.600 on a tour and he comes back and there's a 1:47:27.600 --> 1:47:32.720 lot of attention paid. So what can you tell us 1:47:32.760 --> 1:47:33.479 about Leonard? 1:47:35.760 --> 1:47:41.679 Well, there's there's only one. I can tell you that 1:47:42.560 --> 1:47:47.559 like no one I've ever met, and many many many 1:47:47.840 --> 1:47:53.559 in many many ways. I don't know. Like I said, 1:47:53.600 --> 1:47:56.800 when we started talking after Leonard passed, I didn't really 1:47:56.840 --> 1:47:59.160 feel like writing anybody with anybody else. 1:47:59.640 --> 1:47:59.800 You know. 1:48:00.120 --> 1:48:02.080 I mean, when the when, the when the email would 1:48:02.160 --> 1:48:05.120 ding and I'd see that it was from him, and 1:48:05.120 --> 1:48:07.760 I'd open it up and it was a lyric, which meant, 1:48:07.760 --> 1:48:12.719 here's another lyric. Write a song, and you read these lyrics, 1:48:13.240 --> 1:48:16.639 you know, I could choke up right now. No one 1:48:16.640 --> 1:48:20.599 could write like Leonard Cohen. Sorry, not in my book, 1:48:21.080 --> 1:48:24.360 not anything I ever experienced. I mean Roger, you know, 1:48:24.479 --> 1:48:28.679 Roger Waters is a genius lyricist, but it's a different thing. 1:48:29.240 --> 1:48:29.439 You know. 1:48:29.560 --> 1:48:33.960 Leonard could write quatrains and just blow your mind, you know, 1:48:34.160 --> 1:48:39.639 with what he would find in these simple little rhymes. Yeah, 1:48:39.720 --> 1:48:42.040 that was That was one of my favorite times of 1:48:42.120 --> 1:48:46.559 making music. And part of it is that was a 1:48:46.600 --> 1:48:51.000 little strange is that there was no Leonard didn't want 1:48:51.080 --> 1:48:55.639 any musicians. He was fine with, you know, us in 1:48:55.680 --> 1:49:02.120 his guest house room with a laptop and a keyboard 1:49:02.280 --> 1:49:05.760 and a microphone and a pair of speakers. And so 1:49:06.760 --> 1:49:12.479 the records themselves, I never got to really realize any 1:49:12.520 --> 1:49:18.320 record making. But if they're they're still beautiful, I think 1:49:18.479 --> 1:49:22.160 in their own little way, you know, because the the 1:49:22.240 --> 1:49:26.280 simplicity of it allowed Leonard to have nothing else to 1:49:26.320 --> 1:49:30.519 deal with, and he was real quite clear about that, 1:49:30.880 --> 1:49:35.320 you know, And and I learned. I learned something, you know, 1:49:35.360 --> 1:49:38.439 and it's it's interesting to make that many records and 1:49:38.479 --> 1:49:47.160 then learn something fairly big about when what occurs when 1:49:47.280 --> 1:49:51.200 someone steps out even a little bit, when they're playing 1:49:52.320 --> 1:49:54.639 a bass part or a guitar, pety or drums, whatever 1:49:54.640 --> 1:50:00.200 it is, when they bring themselves into it, what happens. 1:50:00.280 --> 1:50:02.759 There was none of that, you know, there was nothing 1:50:02.760 --> 1:50:05.839 got brought into it, and so Leonard and the poetry 1:50:05.960 --> 1:50:09.160 could just hang in the air with no other egos 1:50:09.200 --> 1:50:13.479 at all. And you know, I would say that I 1:50:13.560 --> 1:50:22.400 was certainly there, but disciplining, you know, what is it? 1:50:22.520 --> 1:50:26.479 Just to stay out of the way all the time. 1:50:28.640 --> 1:50:32.439 So interesting, I mean, beautiful exercise. And you know, and 1:50:32.560 --> 1:50:36.080 I think, I think I learned more about the creative 1:50:36.120 --> 1:50:41.559 process then everything else put together from Leonard. 1:50:42.560 --> 1:50:44.800 And did he ever talk about how he did it 1:50:44.840 --> 1:50:48.080 previously in terms of him writing the lyrics and somebody 1:50:48.080 --> 1:50:49.400 else doing the music or what. 1:50:50.400 --> 1:50:52.080 No, we didn't talk about it, but I you know, 1:50:52.160 --> 1:50:57.400 I I love sharing the anecdote about Leonard had a 1:50:57.479 --> 1:51:00.720 room in his house with a bunch of shelves and 1:51:00.760 --> 1:51:02.880 these little office boxes, you know, the ones with the 1:51:02.920 --> 1:51:06.760 metal corners, the small ones that fit little notebooks, and 1:51:06.840 --> 1:51:08.360 on the end of the box would be the name 1:51:08.400 --> 1:51:11.439 of a song. And there was shelves, full floor of 1:51:11.439 --> 1:51:14.120 ceiling on a whole wall. And he would go in 1:51:14.160 --> 1:51:16.920 there in the morning in a suit and tie by 1:51:16.960 --> 1:51:19.640 the way every day and he would take one of 1:51:19.640 --> 1:51:21.600 those little office boxes and he'd go sit on a 1:51:21.640 --> 1:51:23.920 picnic table in his front yard in his house, in 1:51:23.960 --> 1:51:27.000 this little humble house he only lived upstairs, and this 1:51:27.120 --> 1:51:31.240 green painted thing with his fedora and his suit and 1:51:31.280 --> 1:51:34.080 a dollar bill tucked under his glasses. So son wouldn't 1:51:34.120 --> 1:51:38.080 burn his nose and la and he'd write in these 1:51:38.120 --> 1:51:41.880 little notebooks. He'd write another couple verses, and then he 1:51:41.960 --> 1:51:43.840 put the notebook back in the box, and he put 1:51:43.840 --> 1:51:46.920 the box back on the shelf. And when one of 1:51:46.960 --> 1:51:48.800 these boxes came out and he felt that there was 1:51:48.880 --> 1:51:51.000 enough in there that could possibly a song, you'd take 1:51:51.000 --> 1:51:53.320 all these verses and put them up in the computer. 1:51:53.360 --> 1:51:57.919 And sometimes, honestly, it was three columns of three pages 1:51:58.479 --> 1:52:00.760 of quatrains, you know, four lines it's or six lines, 1:52:00.800 --> 1:52:03.519 whatever the form was, and he's just looking for six 1:52:03.640 --> 1:52:05.840 or seven of them to make the song. And if 1:52:05.840 --> 1:52:07.920 he felt he had him, we'd record something, and if 1:52:07.960 --> 1:52:10.320 he didn't, the box would go back on the shelf. 1:52:11.320 --> 1:52:14.360 And it was every song was kind of like that, 1:52:14.439 --> 1:52:16.960 except somewhere he would just you know, there were songs 1:52:16.960 --> 1:52:19.920 that he'd just write him, you know. But I never 1:52:19.920 --> 1:52:26.360 saw that kind of discipline, and I never saw the 1:52:27.040 --> 1:52:30.719 focus of what this thing is and what it needs. 1:52:31.400 --> 1:52:34.120 And there was a song called Treaty that ended up 1:52:34.160 --> 1:52:36.640 on the last record that you know, we used to 1:52:36.640 --> 1:52:39.479 call it Treaty the movie. I think there was a 1:52:39.560 --> 1:52:42.560 line in the chorus and it was five years he 1:52:42.600 --> 1:52:44.760 couldn't find the line, but every once in a while 1:52:44.800 --> 1:52:47.080 he'd find it and we'd record another version of treaty. 1:52:49.320 --> 1:52:51.040 You know. I don't know how many versions of the 1:52:51.040 --> 1:52:54.360 treaty I have, but it happened a lot. But he 1:52:53.880 --> 1:52:56.439 wasn't it wasn't there yet, and every one of them, 1:52:56.520 --> 1:52:58.880 M'd go, great, we're finally done, you know, and then 1:52:58.920 --> 1:53:01.320 he'd go, no, no, that's not it. And it was 1:53:01.360 --> 1:53:07.639 literally one line, you know. So that to me, I learned. 1:53:07.760 --> 1:53:12.680 I learned something about what makes this hole that I 1:53:12.720 --> 1:53:13.519 didn't know before. 1:53:14.640 --> 1:53:17.160 Okay, did he want you to go on the road? 1:53:18.320 --> 1:53:23.600 Nope, never, No, he didn't once. Once we started making records, 1:53:23.680 --> 1:53:25.639 I think there was one little piece of a tour 1:53:26.040 --> 1:53:26.720 and that was it. 1:53:27.600 --> 1:53:27.800 You know. 1:53:27.880 --> 1:53:30.080 We just we just made records from when we started 1:53:30.120 --> 1:53:31.559 to any past. 1:53:32.680 --> 1:53:37.280 Okay, you have ray of light in the nineties. Once 1:53:37.280 --> 1:53:40.800 we hit the twenty first century, is there as much 1:53:40.880 --> 1:53:42.040 work as there used to be? 1:53:44.560 --> 1:53:48.360 No, there isn't. And also, I I around that time 1:53:49.760 --> 1:53:54.759 the technology had really really crept in and the writing 1:53:57.000 --> 1:54:01.160 the what is it? Just the songs, the types of songs, 1:54:01.160 --> 1:54:03.559 the type of chord progressions, the type of change so 1:54:03.720 --> 1:54:08.280 dramatically that I just didn't feel that much for it. 1:54:08.320 --> 1:54:09.840 I just didn't have it. I just didn't feel that 1:54:09.920 --> 1:54:13.400 symbiotic with it. You know, I'm not interested in four chords, 1:54:14.040 --> 1:54:16.280 and I'm not interested in everything being tuned, and I'm 1:54:16.320 --> 1:54:20.080 not interested in everything being quantized. I'm not And so 1:54:20.720 --> 1:54:25.320 once those records started being kind of the norm, I'm 1:54:25.360 --> 1:54:27.680 not going to do it just to do it, you know. 1:54:28.720 --> 1:54:32.840 Okay. And in that period, like we discussed earlier, were 1:54:32.880 --> 1:54:35.440 you still playing the piano every day? Were you still 1:54:35.480 --> 1:54:36.160 as disciplined? 1:54:37.040 --> 1:54:41.400 Absolutely, maybe more so because the focus was just trying 1:54:41.440 --> 1:54:43.440 to find my own you know. Search of the Lost 1:54:43.480 --> 1:54:44.600 Chord is how we used. 1:54:44.480 --> 1:54:47.400 To say, great album. I hate to say it, but 1:54:47.440 --> 1:54:50.480 that is the best one. And I came to that one, 1:54:51.520 --> 1:54:55.880 that's right. So how'd you decide to make a deal 1:54:55.920 --> 1:54:56.840 with Primary Wave? 1:54:59.160 --> 1:55:05.240 Just just uh just made sense at the time, just 1:55:05.280 --> 1:55:08.280 made sense of them. They're good guys, you know, they're 1:55:08.320 --> 1:55:10.680 they're they're they're good guys. They have heart, they've been 1:55:10.760 --> 1:55:12.120 very supportive, they're good. 1:55:14.080 --> 1:55:17.800 So, yeah, okay, was this something you saw everybody else 1:55:17.840 --> 1:55:20.120 making a deal and is like maybe i'll sell too, 1:55:20.760 --> 1:55:23.640 or did you take it to different companies? Or did 1:55:23.640 --> 1:55:25.520 they approach you? How did the process begin? 1:55:28.880 --> 1:55:32.560 Uh? Our business manager has a relationship with them, and 1:55:32.600 --> 1:55:34.160 it was just one of these things that you would 1:55:34.200 --> 1:55:35.920 you like to talk about this. I said sure, and 1:55:35.960 --> 1:55:37.560 we did and it was like, well, yeah. 1:55:37.440 --> 1:55:38.040 Let's do it. 1:55:38.400 --> 1:55:40.240 I mean, you know, I don't give a lot of 1:55:40.240 --> 1:55:41.080 thought to these things. 1:55:41.520 --> 1:55:45.600 And just to be clear, you sold one hundred percent everything. Yeah, 1:55:45.680 --> 1:55:49.960 so there's no further royalty for you. You got a chunk, right, 1:55:50.080 --> 1:55:51.320 What did you do with that money? 1:55:53.520 --> 1:55:54.400 Drugs and girls? 1:55:54.720 --> 1:55:58.000 Absolutely? Actually I know somebody who did blows close to 1:55:58.040 --> 1:56:01.400 the money. So I made one of those tens of 1:56:01.400 --> 1:56:03.440 millions deals. No, but you get it. You know you're 1:56:03.440 --> 1:56:05.840 getting royalty checks. Now, you get a big lum sum 1:56:05.920 --> 1:56:07.760 you gotta you know, it gets whacked a few times 1:56:07.760 --> 1:56:11.320 by the government's other profit participants, but then you got 1:56:11.320 --> 1:56:12.880 to do something with it. Do you put it in 1:56:12.920 --> 1:56:15.400 real estate? Do you buy something you always wanted to buy? 1:56:15.560 --> 1:56:18.960 Do you put it in stocks? I mean it requires 1:56:18.960 --> 1:56:21.480 a certain amount of attention. 1:56:21.320 --> 1:56:24.480 Yeah, and not not something I'm very good at. But 1:56:25.120 --> 1:56:30.440 you know, it's never been my forte. But you know, 1:56:31.040 --> 1:56:33.840 we're good, we're happy, and we're still making music and 1:56:34.160 --> 1:56:36.360 you know, I'm going to sell a billion vinyls. 1:56:36.720 --> 1:56:38.480 Okay, let's go back. How many kids do you have? 1:56:39.440 --> 1:56:39.839 Three? 1:56:40.000 --> 1:56:41.040 And how old are they. 1:56:42.480 --> 1:56:46.480 Of? Thirty four, thirty seven, thirty nine, and what are 1:56:46.480 --> 1:56:55.200 they up to? I think they're just I don't know. 1:56:55.560 --> 1:56:58.360 I mean, one of them is doing some real estate stuff, 1:56:58.400 --> 1:57:00.640 the other one's doing some writing, the other one's playing music. 1:57:01.440 --> 1:57:03.720 I think it's I feel for them. I feel for 1:57:03.760 --> 1:57:06.560 that generation. I think they're a lot more lost than 1:57:06.560 --> 1:57:09.400 my generation was. And I love them, and they're bright kids, 1:57:09.400 --> 1:57:11.760 and they're good kids, and they're not kids or grown ups, 1:57:12.160 --> 1:57:16.960 you know, But I think it's it may be difficult 1:57:17.880 --> 1:57:23.840 when you can see a parent do what he loves passionately, 1:57:24.800 --> 1:57:28.800 almost a little bit haphazardly, and have it work so well, 1:57:29.560 --> 1:57:32.040 and and then go at trying to do something and 1:57:32.080 --> 1:57:35.360 find such a different world that meets you. I mean, 1:57:35.680 --> 1:57:39.960 you know, I think if I were fourteen right now, 1:57:40.600 --> 1:57:43.520 I wouldn't be in the studio with somebody, you know 1:57:43.560 --> 1:57:45.520 what I mean. I'd be staring at a cell phone 1:57:46.280 --> 1:57:47.960 trying to get the little ball to go, you know, 1:57:48.000 --> 1:57:52.040 whatever it is, you know, like trying to get more likes. 1:57:52.280 --> 1:57:57.560 So, how has your work your choice of work affected 1:57:57.680 --> 1:58:00.440 your relationships romantic relationships. 1:58:04.000 --> 1:58:12.240 Well, I would say then I met Anna eight years 1:58:12.280 --> 1:58:16.240 ago and I am truly happy for the first time 1:58:16.240 --> 1:58:20.600 in my life. And I don't think work had much 1:58:20.640 --> 1:58:27.560 to do with any of it along the way. I 1:58:27.640 --> 1:58:30.680 just don't think it was ever really right, and now 1:58:30.680 --> 1:58:33.640 it is, so I got really lucky. 1:58:33.960 --> 1:58:35.680 You know, you didn't go on the road that much. 1:58:35.680 --> 1:58:37.560 You say, three big tours, but a lot of people 1:58:37.600 --> 1:58:40.400 you talk to them and say, you know, the relationship 1:58:40.480 --> 1:58:43.400 couldn't last because I was absent a lot of time. 1:58:43.720 --> 1:58:46.400 Now also there's the issue of you know, people are 1:58:46.400 --> 1:58:49.120 working round the clock, whether it be music or anything 1:58:49.160 --> 1:58:50.640 that can impact relationship. 1:58:51.800 --> 1:58:54.360 No, that was never really and I think I think 1:58:57.800 --> 1:58:59.640 I don't know. I don't know that I would know this. 1:59:00.160 --> 1:59:05.240 I know it now because of Anna. But it's either 1:59:05.320 --> 1:59:08.560 right or it isn't in my life, And now it's right, 1:59:08.640 --> 1:59:10.920 and there's been there's not a bump, not a hiccup, 1:59:10.960 --> 1:59:13.280 not a nothing, no issues, no matter how much I work, 1:59:13.360 --> 1:59:17.320 no matter what we're doing, we are. We are absolutely 1:59:17.320 --> 1:59:18.240 fabulous all the time. 1:59:18.320 --> 1:59:19.200 And how did you meet her? 1:59:20.760 --> 1:59:22.920 Through a friend in la you know, just a mutual 1:59:23.040 --> 1:59:23.760 musician friend. 1:59:26.000 --> 1:59:29.440 Yeah, I mean, was it a setup romantic or you 1:59:29.560 --> 1:59:31.480 just went somewhere and she was there and it took 1:59:31.520 --> 1:59:31.880 from there. 1:59:32.520 --> 1:59:36.080 No, he said you guys should meet, and we did it. 1:59:36.400 --> 1:59:38.600 And he was right, you know he was, He was 1:59:38.640 --> 1:59:40.600 absolutely right. I mean, it was it was, it was 1:59:41.000 --> 1:59:42.240 right away from day one. 1:59:42.960 --> 1:59:47.040 Okay, let's go back to the new record. The record 1:59:47.120 --> 1:59:51.160 you're putting out now is in a very changed landscape 1:59:51.600 --> 1:59:56.120 from the Toy Matinee and Third Matinee world. There are 1:59:56.120 --> 1:59:58.960 a lot of people of our vintage who won't even 1:59:59.040 --> 2:00:02.880 make new music because they feel it won't be exposed, 2:00:02.920 --> 2:00:06.560 they won't reach an audience, and even the biggest acts 2:00:06.600 --> 2:00:09.480 in the world don't reach the kind of people that 2:00:09.520 --> 2:00:12.920 Madonna did in the eighties and nineties. So to what 2:00:13.040 --> 2:00:15.880 degree does that affect your outlook in terms of making 2:00:15.920 --> 2:00:19.080 an album? 2:00:19.120 --> 2:00:25.040 Well, I think I don't think I've ever had more 2:00:25.080 --> 2:00:30.560 fun making a record than I had making this one, because, 2:00:30.560 --> 2:00:34.120 as I said earlier, I didn't have to negotiate anything. 2:00:35.080 --> 2:00:41.720 So the freedom that it gave me, I think created 2:00:41.760 --> 2:00:50.640 a result that is it's just in a nice place, 2:00:51.200 --> 2:00:53.160 you know, It's I think that I think the records 2:00:53.160 --> 2:00:55.000 in a nice place and it's and it's I think 2:00:55.000 --> 2:01:02.920 it's a well well done thing. And so for what 2:01:03.040 --> 2:01:08.680 my aspirations have been to at this point, make a 2:01:08.760 --> 2:01:11.000 record that I'm proud of that I think is really 2:01:11.000 --> 2:01:15.000 good and look forward to making another one is a 2:01:15.000 --> 2:01:18.360 big improvement from digging around with children that want to 2:01:18.400 --> 2:01:21.400 quantize their voices and sing to a drum machine. I 2:01:21.400 --> 2:01:25.560 can't do that, and I'm not judging it. I just 2:01:25.600 --> 2:01:29.000 have no interest in it. It's no different than you know, 2:01:29.120 --> 2:01:31.840 I don't want to belong either. I don't relate to 2:01:31.880 --> 2:01:35.720 it so that I'm getting to do what I love 2:01:36.840 --> 2:01:39.280 at the level I'm getting to do it at, even 2:01:39.320 --> 2:01:43.840 if it's in a market that doesn't exist, I kind 2:01:43.840 --> 2:01:48.480 of think that it will find its home wherever that is. 2:01:49.200 --> 2:01:52.840 And I think that because I Vinyl focused it, and 2:01:52.880 --> 2:01:56.160 I really did. I mean, I spent more time balancing 2:01:56.200 --> 2:02:00.080 the sides and rearranging the songs and writing songs to 2:02:00.120 --> 2:02:02.280 make a side feel more complete. I mean that was 2:02:02.360 --> 2:02:04.400 really the job. I wrote thirty songs to come up 2:02:04.400 --> 2:02:06.960 with the sixteen, and I don't mean on a napkin. 2:02:07.040 --> 2:02:09.000 I mean I wrote them and finished them and put 2:02:09.040 --> 2:02:11.560 them in a sequence, and you know, I really worked 2:02:11.560 --> 2:02:14.080 hard to make a vinyl, to make a double album, 2:02:14.560 --> 2:02:20.160 and I think that those that are still willing to 2:02:20.200 --> 2:02:22.360 engage that as an art form will really enjoy it 2:02:22.400 --> 2:02:24.880 and find it a really good one. And that's enough 2:02:25.040 --> 2:02:32.080 for me. You know, the the you know, fifty million 2:02:32.120 --> 2:02:34.800 record sale thing, it's been gone for a long time, 2:02:35.360 --> 2:02:38.800 you know, and people buying music has been gone for 2:02:38.840 --> 2:02:41.680 a long time. But it doesn't mean I don't get 2:02:41.680 --> 2:02:44.800 out of bed compelled to write and record music. I 2:02:44.920 --> 2:02:49.760 still do. Call me crazy. So this is the best 2:02:50.240 --> 2:02:52.360 I can come up with right now as a way 2:02:52.400 --> 2:02:56.880 to do it. And I think find a little bit 2:02:56.920 --> 2:03:00.280 of an audience because I think there's few people. I mean, 2:03:00.360 --> 2:03:03.680 I've had the experience of you know, people getting the vinyl, 2:03:04.080 --> 2:03:06.840 Elton being one of them and saying, wow, thank you. 2:03:06.960 --> 2:03:09.960 I mean, this actually really did the thing, and that's 2:03:10.080 --> 2:03:13.160 that was the goal and the goal achieved, and I 2:03:13.680 --> 2:03:17.760 think it's it can probably be self sustaining if enough 2:03:17.800 --> 2:03:20.560 final people find it. And in terms of you know, 2:03:20.720 --> 2:03:23.680 anything else from it, I have no expectations at all. None. 2:03:24.800 --> 2:03:26.960 It hasn't stopped me from writing in thirty more songs 2:03:27.000 --> 2:03:32.360 for another couple albums, you know, because that's what I'm crazy. 2:03:38.720 --> 2:03:41.480 How did you end up working with Michael Fremmer? 2:03:42.880 --> 2:03:45.920 Somebody introduced me to Michael a few years ago when 2:03:45.920 --> 2:03:49.400 we were looking for at the possibility of making a 2:03:49.480 --> 2:03:53.280 vinyl out of something else, and we just hit it off. 2:03:53.600 --> 2:03:56.040 We just started talking and hit it off. And when this, 2:03:56.600 --> 2:03:58.920 when this came up, we kind of stayed in touch. 2:03:59.200 --> 2:04:01.640 And when it came up, I just asked him if 2:04:01.680 --> 2:04:04.600 he'd help shepherd this through, if he would help, you know, 2:04:05.880 --> 2:04:11.040 all all points of it. And he did, and it's 2:04:11.080 --> 2:04:13.360 been very helpful. I mean that, you know, the the 2:04:13.440 --> 2:04:17.520 thing sounds crazy great and it was also Bob Ludwig 2:04:17.640 --> 2:04:20.320 mastered it and it was the last thing he did 2:04:20.320 --> 2:04:23.920 on the last day. Chris Bellman cut the lay, cut 2:04:23.960 --> 2:04:29.640 the vinyl and uh RTI, you know, took great pains 2:04:29.680 --> 2:04:31.760 and it sounds. It's one hundred and eighty grams and 2:04:31.800 --> 2:04:35.480 it's crazy. And Storm Studios did the cover. So it's 2:04:35.520 --> 2:04:38.720 the old hypnosis guys, and that took a year, you know, 2:04:39.040 --> 2:04:41.600 of going around and around the one. You pick it 2:04:41.680 --> 2:04:44.160 up and hold it, it's you know, it's this big 2:04:44.200 --> 2:04:47.640 heavy thing with all this beautiful paper and beautiful color 2:04:47.680 --> 2:04:51.440 and you know, all the lyrics printed out and only 2:04:51.480 --> 2:04:55.520 a couple things that we missed in all the text, 2:04:55.600 --> 2:05:02.520 you know, so you For me, it's laying on the 2:05:02.560 --> 2:05:05.640 floor in my bedroom with thick as a brick open 2:05:05.800 --> 2:05:08.360 or trying to figure out what the hell the lads 2:05:08.440 --> 2:05:12.000 up the four album cover was about and listening to 2:05:12.120 --> 2:05:13.600 music where you got to get up and turn the 2:05:13.600 --> 2:05:16.880 record over, and it feels like it was made specifically 2:05:16.920 --> 2:05:21.200 for you to listen to and enjoy. That's what I love, 2:05:21.200 --> 2:05:23.800 and that's what I think I'm trying to do. 2:05:23.880 --> 2:05:27.200 I guess, you know, knowing Fremmer, who's the king of 2:05:27.280 --> 2:05:30.960 Vinyl for those people don't know, and takes responsibility and 2:05:31.000 --> 2:05:34.160 deserves responsibility for one of the main drivers, if not 2:05:34.240 --> 2:05:38.880 the main drivers for bringing vinyl back. He's not an engineer. 2:05:39.640 --> 2:05:43.560 How did he help? Well? 2:05:43.880 --> 2:05:50.400 I think in in the specifics of the manufacturing one 2:05:51.120 --> 2:05:52.480 of like how are we going to do this and 2:05:52.720 --> 2:05:55.480 and how is it going to be packaged and what 2:05:56.520 --> 2:05:59.760 materials are getting used and from the printing to the thing, 2:05:59.880 --> 2:06:02.960 just to kind of give it that distinction. And also 2:06:03.960 --> 2:06:07.720 the whole time I was sending in my demos, you know, 2:06:07.800 --> 2:06:10.360 like when I do this stuff, I make a demo 2:06:10.840 --> 2:06:15.080 of everything. So you hear the song, and I would 2:06:15.160 --> 2:06:16.920 sequence it and I'd send it to him and he'd 2:06:16.920 --> 2:06:20.040 play it, and he would either like it or not 2:06:20.160 --> 2:06:22.040 like it. Most of the time he seemed to like it. 2:06:22.800 --> 2:06:26.560 And when we got to the place where these refs 2:06:26.600 --> 2:06:28.960 were cut, the refs went to him, not to me. 2:06:30.880 --> 2:06:32.720 You know, he was the one who said, yep, we 2:06:32.760 --> 2:06:36.480 can approve this ref And the same with the pressings. 2:06:36.480 --> 2:06:38.480 You know, when the pressings were done and test pressings, 2:06:38.520 --> 2:06:42.000 it's like he was checking I'm not me. I mean, 2:06:42.040 --> 2:06:46.400 I got a set, but it was him. And now 2:06:46.520 --> 2:06:51.160 with the press for the you know, vinyl press and 2:06:51.240 --> 2:06:54.720 the magazine's overseas, and he's sending the record to all 2:06:54.760 --> 2:06:57.960 of these people. And he's also carried the test pressings 2:06:57.960 --> 2:07:00.560 around at these conventions and played the test expressing for 2:07:00.600 --> 2:07:03.960 people just to see the reaction, and he tells me 2:07:04.000 --> 2:07:10.320 it was extremely positive, you know. So you know, I 2:07:10.400 --> 2:07:12.680 know that it is not everybody's cup of tea, but 2:07:12.840 --> 2:07:15.400 those that it is, they're a cup of tea. I 2:07:15.400 --> 2:07:17.640 think they like it. And I think Michael had a 2:07:17.640 --> 2:07:18.280 lot to do with that. 2:07:18.880 --> 2:07:23.160 Okay, just to cover new music, you're talking about starting 2:07:23.160 --> 2:07:25.680 the turn of the century, what people were doing did 2:07:25.720 --> 2:07:29.360 not make you want to be involved. To what degree 2:07:29.400 --> 2:07:31.600 do you keep up with new music? If at all? 2:07:32.840 --> 2:07:35.360 Not at all? Zero? 2:07:36.400 --> 2:07:39.400 So do you have friends who say send you an 2:07:39.400 --> 2:07:40.880 email and say you need to hear this? 2:07:42.240 --> 2:07:42.839 Not anymore? 2:07:44.280 --> 2:07:51.040 Okay? And is there any investigation of music history or 2:07:51.080 --> 2:07:55.560 you're pretty much on your own hagira out into the wilderness. 2:07:56.080 --> 2:07:59.440 Well, I think, you know, when I want to study 2:08:00.880 --> 2:08:04.960 and I do. I go back to, say, a Revel 2:08:05.080 --> 2:08:09.000 piano piece, and I put it up, and I look 2:08:09.560 --> 2:08:13.200 at the lines, and I do this thing we used 2:08:13.200 --> 2:08:15.320 to call standing the lineup on its end. So you 2:08:15.320 --> 2:08:17.800 take the line that Revel plays and something, and you 2:08:17.840 --> 2:08:19.800 stand it up and you look at what chord it is, 2:08:20.240 --> 2:08:22.680 because they weren't really focused on chords in those days. 2:08:23.280 --> 2:08:26.200 And so now you've kind of if you get lucky, 2:08:26.800 --> 2:08:30.800 and you often do, you've kind of found a new 2:08:30.840 --> 2:08:35.240 way of harmonizing something. And if you take that little 2:08:35.280 --> 2:08:39.200 thing and you get it into your vocabulary, as you 2:08:39.240 --> 2:08:44.680 continue to create, those things show up. And I'm interested 2:08:44.720 --> 2:08:48.200 in that showing up much more than a drum sample, 2:08:50.160 --> 2:08:53.080 you know what I mean? Absolutely, I can't learn anything 2:08:53.080 --> 2:08:54.520 from any of the shit that's going on right now, 2:08:54.520 --> 2:08:56.720 I'm just going to be brutal, like there's nothing I 2:08:56.720 --> 2:09:00.640 can learn from it. So I feel that the learning 2:09:01.080 --> 2:09:04.560 is more important because if I'm going to improvise and 2:09:04.600 --> 2:09:07.680 I'm going to continue to create, the only thing that 2:09:07.680 --> 2:09:11.120 makes it any better is making the palette broader, you know, 2:09:12.880 --> 2:09:15.640 And that's that's I know it sounds crazy because you know, 2:09:15.640 --> 2:09:18.840 I should be going fishing all the time, but I'm 2:09:18.840 --> 2:09:19.640 still obsessive. 2:09:20.000 --> 2:09:24.720 But you know, we've had COVID, you've moved. But is 2:09:24.760 --> 2:09:27.000 your lifestyle that you're pretty much at home? Or do 2:09:27.040 --> 2:09:28.000 you go on vacation? 2:09:30.040 --> 2:09:36.600 Well, because because we have the plane, we can do 2:09:36.760 --> 2:09:39.240 little things. You know, you can. You can you can 2:09:39.360 --> 2:09:41.800 just take off and go somewhere for a day and 2:09:42.280 --> 2:09:44.080 just go sit on a beach that you couldn't possibly 2:09:44.120 --> 2:09:46.600 drive to and then come home and have dinner at 2:09:46.600 --> 2:09:49.080 home if you want, or go stay a couple of nights, 2:09:49.160 --> 2:09:54.840 or you know, I think you know, and I have 2:09:55.000 --> 2:09:57.400 talked about vacations, we just haven't taken one. 2:09:57.880 --> 2:10:01.520 Well, my question is can you be away from the 2:10:01.600 --> 2:10:02.720 keyboard that long? 2:10:03.440 --> 2:10:07.040 Oh sure? Oh yeah, oh yeah, no, I mean back 2:10:07.080 --> 2:10:11.160 in the back in the nineties when Roger and I, 2:10:11.240 --> 2:10:14.600 after we started working together, we also started fishing together. 2:10:15.200 --> 2:10:17.640 So we did a lot of bone fishing trips for 2:10:17.880 --> 2:10:20.680 you know, six seven days and the keys and you know, 2:10:21.320 --> 2:10:23.760 and it was, it was, there's an anecdote or what 2:10:23.880 --> 2:10:28.800 is it? You you fish, you eat, you pretend to sleep, 2:10:29.040 --> 2:10:32.120 you fish, you eat you you know, because it's it's 2:10:32.160 --> 2:10:37.440 it's a really beautiful obsession. So no, I mean easy, 2:10:37.480 --> 2:10:39.520 easy for me to get in a trout streamer out 2:10:39.600 --> 2:10:44.240 chasing bonefish or tarp and with a fly rod, and 2:10:44.320 --> 2:10:45.760 I can do that for a long time. 2:10:46.480 --> 2:10:50.280 They say it's really hard to catch bonefish. Is that true? 2:10:51.880 --> 2:10:53.680 I think it's gotten harder because there's a lot more 2:10:53.760 --> 2:10:55.960 pressure on them. And yes, it is not that simple 2:10:56.240 --> 2:10:59.280 because it's a it's you know, sight fishing. You need 2:10:59.360 --> 2:11:01.920 to see them and obviously if you can see them, 2:11:01.960 --> 2:11:04.440 they can see you. So it's you know, you have 2:11:04.520 --> 2:11:08.000 to be able to present the fly so it doesn't 2:11:08.000 --> 2:11:11.640 spook them. And then you know, it's tricky. It's tricky. 2:11:12.240 --> 2:11:15.400 Okay, are you already working on the next album in 2:11:15.440 --> 2:11:18.200 your mind? 2:11:18.640 --> 2:11:21.760 The next album's already finished in the can demos are done, 2:11:22.800 --> 2:11:25.920 completely written, done, won't change anything. All the lyrics are done, 2:11:25.920 --> 2:11:28.320 all the music's done, and I'll be honest with you, 2:11:28.920 --> 2:11:33.040 there was a whole other album that came before that that, 2:11:34.360 --> 2:11:38.480 and then I got COVID two Christmases ago and we 2:11:38.560 --> 2:11:40.440 both seem to get a little bit of a long COVID, 2:11:40.840 --> 2:11:42.960 and I wrote this entire album that I listened to 2:11:43.040 --> 2:11:45.320 a couple of days ago again because I keep checking 2:11:45.360 --> 2:11:47.960 in to hope that I'm wrong, but there's something missing 2:11:48.040 --> 2:11:51.800 from it. There's something missing. It's there's something that's not there. 2:11:52.080 --> 2:11:54.480 And it was during this kind of long COVID of like, 2:11:54.920 --> 2:11:57.360 you know, I think we're okay, but maybe we're not. 2:11:58.280 --> 2:12:01.600 And then there was suddenly some new songs and I 2:12:01.600 --> 2:12:04.960 could feel that it somehow, whatever that was had passed. 2:12:05.800 --> 2:12:08.080 So there's twenty songs that I'll never do anything with 2:12:08.160 --> 2:12:11.520 and they're finished songs, but they're not. There's something I 2:12:11.520 --> 2:12:13.760 know that sounds weird, but there's something missing from them. 2:12:13.920 --> 2:12:16.120 No, I understand that just when you say finished songs, 2:12:16.600 --> 2:12:19.880 they have to be cut or they're masters. That's it. 2:12:21.080 --> 2:12:25.920 No, the songs are written, the demos are done, the 2:12:26.040 --> 2:12:29.160 keyboard parts are essentially there, and so now it's make 2:12:29.200 --> 2:12:31.320 the record out of it. But when it's in this state, 2:12:31.840 --> 2:12:34.640 it's a couple of weeks of tracking and it's done. 2:12:35.240 --> 2:12:38.040 And in most cases, I think my vocals at least 2:12:38.040 --> 2:12:42.120 are probably pretty done. And you know, there's always that 2:12:42.320 --> 2:12:45.560 line in one song that I can't find, and I'll 2:12:45.560 --> 2:12:47.120 either find it or I'll throw the song out and 2:12:47.120 --> 2:12:50.280 write another one or write another one, you know. But 2:12:50.480 --> 2:12:53.520 the record that's in the can right now is called 2:12:53.560 --> 2:12:57.240 Love and Occasional War, and I think it's really cool. 2:12:57.360 --> 2:12:59.800 I mean, I can't wait to make it. It's way 2:12:59.840 --> 2:13:03.200 to different than this record. And it's also a single album. 2:13:03.280 --> 2:13:06.160 It's not quite so much work, you know, it's forty minutes, 2:13:06.200 --> 2:13:07.400 not eighty four, you know. 2:13:07.960 --> 2:13:14.839 Okay, so this album comes out, we'll feedback affect anything 2:13:14.920 --> 2:13:18.400 you do in the future, or are you immune to feedback? 2:13:21.600 --> 2:13:24.440 It won't affect anything. I don't know if I'm immune. 2:13:24.440 --> 2:13:27.960 I think I'm just stubborn. And also I'm kind of 2:13:27.960 --> 2:13:29.520 a I have a little bit of know it all 2:13:29.520 --> 2:13:31.520 in me, so I don't give a show people say, 2:13:32.760 --> 2:13:33.760 And I've always been like that. 2:13:34.560 --> 2:13:39.440 Okay, You've had a lot of success period, as we've mentioned, 2:13:39.480 --> 2:13:45.360 a lot of success collaboration. Is it purely your talent 2:13:45.600 --> 2:13:49.960 and resume? Was there something about your personality and interaction 2:13:50.520 --> 2:13:52.800 that draws people and opportunities to you. 2:13:56.480 --> 2:14:01.240 I think this is a really interesting question because this 2:14:01.280 --> 2:14:04.680 is something that tortures me a little bit, honestly. Is 2:14:04.840 --> 2:14:09.000 I think that, yes, there is something in my work 2:14:09.640 --> 2:14:16.680 that draws people to me. But I'm also deeply self 2:14:16.720 --> 2:14:21.680 centered musically and deeply stubborn, and so I think it's 2:14:21.760 --> 2:14:24.440 not the most pleasant experience to make a record with 2:14:24.520 --> 2:14:27.720 me because it's like it's kind of my way or 2:14:27.720 --> 2:14:29.760 the highway, and it's not even my picture on the cover, 2:14:29.920 --> 2:14:32.640 you know. So I think that as time went on, 2:14:34.680 --> 2:14:38.480 I found those moments less attractive, like with Elton a Dream, 2:14:38.520 --> 2:14:43.120 because we're not writing once it's my writing. I have 2:14:43.240 --> 2:14:47.920 this possessiveness about it, and I feel also, who's going 2:14:48.000 --> 2:14:50.960 to know better what my music needs than me? Because 2:14:50.960 --> 2:14:56.440 I wrote it. And back to True Blue, we were 2:14:56.480 --> 2:14:58.440 making True Blue and Madonna and I were having one 2:14:58.440 --> 2:15:00.680 of these moments where she wanted to to do something 2:15:00.680 --> 2:15:03.320 and I was saying no, and the cover had just 2:15:03.400 --> 2:15:06.680 come from her Brits, that beautiful photo of her, and 2:15:06.720 --> 2:15:08.400 she held it up and she pointed it at me 2:15:08.440 --> 2:15:12.840 and she said, whose picture's this? And I'll never forget 2:15:12.880 --> 2:15:15.760 it because it's like, yeah, you're right, but it doesn't 2:15:15.760 --> 2:15:16.560 mean it changed me. 2:15:17.200 --> 2:15:20.120 You know. Okay, if we put on whatever that track 2:15:20.280 --> 2:15:23.920 is all the years later, will you say, well, maybe 2:15:23.960 --> 2:15:25.800 she was right. Oh you hear go, No, I would 2:15:25.840 --> 2:15:26.200 have done it. 2:15:26.240 --> 2:15:28.400 No, she still sang the wrong note. She still sang 2:15:28.440 --> 2:15:30.120 the wrong note. It's like, you can't sing that note. 2:15:30.160 --> 2:15:32.280 She says, where did all these rules come from? Said, 2:15:32.280 --> 2:15:34.880 I didn't make them, Honeybock made them. Don't look at me. 2:15:35.800 --> 2:15:37.600 But then you know, you go through these things and 2:15:37.600 --> 2:15:39.040 she says, no, I'm going to do it, and she 2:15:39.080 --> 2:15:45.520 sticks this high harmony in, and you know, anybody with 2:15:45.560 --> 2:15:47.360 a musical air will go what she doing singing the 2:15:47.400 --> 2:15:49.960 major seventh when there's a dominant seventh chord. It's like 2:15:49.960 --> 2:15:51.960 it's a half step away. It couldn't be a worse note. 2:15:52.760 --> 2:15:54.680 But it's like, well, it didn't really seem to matter 2:15:54.720 --> 2:15:59.920 that much, you know, but makes me in the moment 2:16:00.080 --> 2:16:02.000 that you know, I'm a bastard in the moment, I 2:16:02.000 --> 2:16:02.920 can promise. 2:16:02.640 --> 2:16:05.440 You that's on one side of the board. What I'm 2:16:05.480 --> 2:16:08.560 saying is forgetting people whose picture is on the cover. 2:16:09.040 --> 2:16:13.920 Working musicians have to network, have to have a certain 2:16:13.960 --> 2:16:19.880 possibility to get opportunities. Is that part of your personality? 2:16:20.040 --> 2:16:25.120 No, it's not, it's not. No, I think, you know, honestly, 2:16:26.800 --> 2:16:27.800 you're very good at this. 2:16:27.920 --> 2:16:29.440 By the way, thank you. 2:16:29.440 --> 2:16:32.240 You are really really fucking good at this. You are. 2:16:34.200 --> 2:16:38.640 I think that it was always a bit. 2:16:41.200 --> 2:16:41.680 What is it? 2:16:43.680 --> 2:16:46.119 I think, I'm just, I'm just I think me making 2:16:46.120 --> 2:16:48.879 solo records right now is the logical conclusion to this, 2:16:48.959 --> 2:16:50.480 because I think that's what I want to do the 2:16:50.520 --> 2:16:53.400 whole time, anyway, you know, And I think if it was, 2:16:53.520 --> 2:16:56.680 if it was really you know, there were people that 2:16:56.720 --> 2:16:58.920 I worked with that I thought were brilliant and people 2:16:58.920 --> 2:17:01.160 that I admired so much, and I felt so lucky 2:17:01.200 --> 2:17:03.640 to be in a room with Rod Stewart or you know, 2:17:03.800 --> 2:17:08.119 Robbie Robertson or Elton you know, or Roger or Gilmore. 2:17:08.160 --> 2:17:10.480 I mean, wow, you know, these are these are the 2:17:10.560 --> 2:17:13.920 greats of all time, They truly are, and and so 2:17:14.200 --> 2:17:17.480 how lucky for me. And in those cases when we 2:17:17.480 --> 2:17:21.920 would collaborate, I felt lucky to be there. But if 2:17:21.959 --> 2:17:26.280 it wasn't that, it just I always felt a little 2:17:26.280 --> 2:17:30.840 bit like I was wasting time. I really did. The 2:17:30.879 --> 2:17:32.880 people that I was working with probably felt that too. 2:17:33.360 --> 2:17:37.320 You've made a lot of records. There must have been 2:17:37.320 --> 2:17:40.080 a ton of creative choices. When you made the record 2:17:40.080 --> 2:17:42.600 with Adam Cohen, you said, I'm in control, it's going 2:17:42.680 --> 2:17:45.680 to be my way. When you've made records with these 2:17:45.720 --> 2:17:49.720 other people, and you had done part of the writing, 2:17:49.800 --> 2:17:56.800 so you're invested, and their opinion was contrary, how stubborn 2:17:56.879 --> 2:17:59.680 would you be? Would you be worried about the harmony 2:17:59.840 --> 2:18:01.360 or would you just say this is the way it 2:18:01.400 --> 2:18:01.800 should be. 2:18:04.360 --> 2:18:11.960 I think that it's a personality defect. But I think 2:18:12.000 --> 2:18:13.000 I took it personally. 2:18:13.680 --> 2:18:15.400 No no, no no no no no no no, I'm 2:18:15.440 --> 2:18:18.760 saying the other thing. Yes, you took it personally. 2:18:19.440 --> 2:18:21.920 Yeah, And I fought it personally. I fought it like 2:18:21.959 --> 2:18:23.360 it was a personal insult. 2:18:23.879 --> 2:18:26.840 That's my question. To what degree did you stand up? 2:18:27.320 --> 2:18:29.840 You're working with these household name artists and you go, 2:18:30.640 --> 2:18:34.160 you know, you could say very gently, I would do 2:18:34.240 --> 2:18:38.080 it a different way, or let's try it again whatever. 2:18:38.200 --> 2:18:41.520 Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. A lot of engineers 2:18:41.560 --> 2:18:44.040 operate that way. A lot of producers who used to 2:18:44.080 --> 2:18:47.720 be engineers operator that way. There are some diva producers 2:18:47.760 --> 2:18:51.000 I know do the opposite, but they're not musicians like you. 2:18:51.840 --> 2:18:56.000 So would you say, with a stronger tonality, no, we 2:18:56.440 --> 2:18:58.760 need to do it this way, or would you say 2:18:58.760 --> 2:18:59.840 it's their record I'll back. 2:19:01.560 --> 2:19:04.279 It would totally depend on the artist. It would totally 2:19:04.280 --> 2:19:06.360 depend on the artist. And the other part of that 2:19:06.560 --> 2:19:10.400 is that I don't remember Elton never doing anything that 2:19:10.440 --> 2:19:13.400 I questioned, nor did Roger ever do anything I questioned, 2:19:13.400 --> 2:19:15.199 Nor when I was doing stuff with Jeff Beck, Didty 2:19:15.240 --> 2:19:17.160 doing it and I questioned. These people don't do things 2:19:17.200 --> 2:19:19.640 that you question. That's why they are what they are 2:19:20.200 --> 2:19:25.760 and who they are. And the uh, the thing of 2:19:25.840 --> 2:19:28.960 working on a pop song and someone who isn't doesn't 2:19:29.000 --> 2:19:31.840 have the kind of musical palette or whatever you want 2:19:31.840 --> 2:19:36.920 to call it. I could be really okay with it, 2:19:37.000 --> 2:19:39.240 and I think you know in the records that I made, 2:19:39.280 --> 2:19:41.720 it's not like it was a hell hole. But I 2:19:41.760 --> 2:19:44.560 do know that if there was something that I didn't like, 2:19:44.680 --> 2:19:47.720 I could be inappropriately brutal to someone who had hired 2:19:47.760 --> 2:19:50.199 me and was paying me and it was their fucking 2:19:50.200 --> 2:19:53.200 picture on the cover. And I know that, and I 2:19:53.720 --> 2:19:56.199 don't think I could have done it any different because 2:19:56.200 --> 2:19:59.320 it's it's part of what makes my music what it is. 2:20:00.120 --> 2:20:03.199 You know, it is what it is because I'm invested 2:20:03.240 --> 2:20:07.080 in it where I'll have a rock fight with you 2:20:07.120 --> 2:20:09.680 in the parking lot about it. And I think in 2:20:09.720 --> 2:20:12.680 some of those moments, I think people go, man, you know, 2:20:13.959 --> 2:20:17.840 lighten up, you know, or whatever it was. But you know, 2:20:18.200 --> 2:20:21.680 I think some people had found it difficult, found me difficult. 2:20:22.040 --> 2:20:22.680 I know they did. 2:20:23.440 --> 2:20:25.440 Speaking of difficult, how did you end up working with 2:20:25.480 --> 2:20:26.000 Jeff Beck? 2:20:27.480 --> 2:20:30.560 Just through Roger? You know, Jeff played on Amused to 2:20:30.600 --> 2:20:35.400 Death and then Jeff and I spent some time together 2:20:35.400 --> 2:20:38.200 in the studio trying to make a solo record for him, 2:20:38.360 --> 2:20:41.000 and we did a couple pieces that we wrote together 2:20:41.120 --> 2:20:44.320 and recorded them, and it just, you know, the times 2:20:44.360 --> 2:20:47.080 I would bump into Jeff after that, he'd talk about 2:20:47.080 --> 2:20:50.280 the greatest record we never made because we started it, 2:20:50.320 --> 2:20:53.720 but it never it never got focused. We never focused it. 2:20:54.520 --> 2:20:56.200 And I'm not sure I could have done it anyway. 2:20:56.280 --> 2:20:59.720 I don't know that I that I could, that I 2:20:59.720 --> 2:21:04.119 could give Jeff what he needed. You know, he's got, 2:21:04.120 --> 2:21:09.600 he's got, so he had so much more authentic real 2:21:09.680 --> 2:21:11.360 rock and roll in his blood than I did. 2:21:12.680 --> 2:21:15.600 You know, well, there's a lot to talk about there, 2:21:15.600 --> 2:21:19.080 but not today. Patrick. I want to thank you for 2:21:19.160 --> 2:21:22.200 taking this time to speak to my audience. I loved it, 2:21:22.400 --> 2:21:25.520 you know, because sometimes you're just getting somebody's story, but 2:21:26.000 --> 2:21:28.960 you know, when we're talking about records and references, really 2:21:29.040 --> 2:21:32.280 feel like you're having a conversation. So good luck with 2:21:32.360 --> 2:21:34.680 a new album. Thanks a lot for talking to me. 2:21:35.800 --> 2:21:38.360 Thanks boy, it was a pleasure, man, Thank you. 2:21:38.360 --> 2:21:40.039 You know that was great. A lot of people you 2:21:40.120 --> 2:21:43.040 sit down and you say, well, you know, I gotta 2:21:43.080 --> 2:21:46.280 sit here and I gotta cover this. Not with you. 2:21:46.400 --> 2:21:48.280 It was like certainly, you know, it was like we 2:21:48.280 --> 2:21:50.959 were talking and we could have been anywhere. We could 2:21:51.000 --> 2:21:52.000 have been sitting on the couch. 2:21:52.320 --> 2:21:56.119 Yeah, well you're you're you're You're really fucking good at 2:21:56.120 --> 2:21:57.640 this man. I mean, you know, like, I'm talking to 2:21:57.680 --> 2:22:00.800 a lot of people these days, and and some of 2:22:00.840 --> 2:22:03.880 them are good, they're good, but you understand what makes 2:22:03.920 --> 2:22:07.960 this tick from from way in the inside, and so 2:22:08.600 --> 2:22:14.039 you're pushing into places that are there's real shit in there, 2:22:14.040 --> 2:22:21.480 there's real stuff buried in there. And you know, I've 2:22:21.560 --> 2:22:23.560 done this for so long. I've done it for over 2:22:23.600 --> 2:22:27.720 sixty years, every fucking day, and I do it all day, 2:22:27.760 --> 2:22:29.800 and I do it for the love of the thing. 2:22:30.800 --> 2:22:33.840 Hate the music business. You used to love the music 2:22:33.879 --> 2:22:37.520 business because it felt like it was about music. Now 2:22:37.840 --> 2:22:39.840 I can't get near it. I don't even you know. 2:22:39.879 --> 2:22:42.440 I got some young people around, engineers and stuff, and 2:22:42.480 --> 2:22:44.120 they come in here to help me out, and they 2:22:44.160 --> 2:22:47.320 go like, this is magic in here. When you're doing 2:22:47.360 --> 2:22:51.400 something completely different. It's like, really, this is that different 2:22:52.080 --> 2:22:54.039 that you know you just sit and play something and 2:22:54.080 --> 2:22:56.280 you record it. It's like, yeah, nobody can even do that. 2:22:57.080 --> 2:23:00.680 And I think, wow, man, what a shame. And so 2:23:00.760 --> 2:23:03.640 I think I'm not doing anything I'm doing to try 2:23:03.680 --> 2:23:08.200 to inspire anybody or show them another way. I'm doing 2:23:08.240 --> 2:23:09.600 it because it's what I know how to do. And 2:23:09.640 --> 2:23:11.440 I actually think I'm better at it than I used 2:23:11.480 --> 2:23:11.760 to be. 2:23:12.400 --> 2:23:12.600 You know. 2:23:12.720 --> 2:23:15.080 I think I tempered it and I think the work 2:23:15.120 --> 2:23:16.959 is good, and I think that that's what I'm here for. 2:23:17.160 --> 2:23:20.080 I didn't, you know, hide from the other children and 2:23:20.080 --> 2:23:21.800 play piano when it was five years old because I 2:23:21.840 --> 2:23:24.400 wanted to be rich and famous and get blowdrops from 2:23:24.480 --> 2:23:28.039 you know, beach bunnies like, no fucking way. It's like, 2:23:28.800 --> 2:23:31.080 you know, it was about it was about this thing. 2:23:31.520 --> 2:23:36.080 And when you and I talked behind the hotel cafe 2:23:36.160 --> 2:23:38.120 that time, I felt the same way about you, Like 2:23:38.160 --> 2:23:41.840 you asked the questions about the work and the and 2:23:41.920 --> 2:23:44.760 you know, because what. 2:23:44.800 --> 2:23:49.200 Else is there, well, just just talking a little bit 2:23:49.240 --> 2:23:52.320 angle when you started off with a hotel cafe. I 2:23:52.360 --> 2:23:56.160 can't tell you how many people I've met, even had conversations, 2:23:56.760 --> 2:24:00.879 don't remember a thing. So I vividly remember that moment. 2:24:00.879 --> 2:24:02.520 I could probably put my feet in the same place 2:24:02.560 --> 2:24:05.200 on the asphalt behind, so it blew my mind. 2:24:05.280 --> 2:24:08.640 I remember friends that No, I remember it. I remember 2:24:08.680 --> 2:24:08.959 it too. 2:24:09.440 --> 2:24:09.680 You know. 2:24:09.959 --> 2:24:11.560 You were your back was to the building and I 2:24:11.600 --> 2:24:15.120 was facing Yes, let's see it, you know, and the 2:24:15.160 --> 2:24:17.000 door was right behind you. I can see the color. 2:24:17.040 --> 2:24:20.120 I don't know why, but there was something about that 2:24:20.480 --> 2:24:23.680 and I think, I think possibly. I don't want to 2:24:23.680 --> 2:24:27.480 get fucking airy fairy here, but I think you have 2:24:27.520 --> 2:24:31.400 a real affinity for what makes this shit real, and 2:24:31.560 --> 2:24:32.039 so do I. 2:24:33.080 --> 2:24:36.640 No, listen, I don't think you can take that to 2:24:36.720 --> 2:24:39.520 the bank. Occasionally you can capture it and it works, 2:24:39.840 --> 2:24:43.160 but that's what it's all about. 2:24:42.320 --> 2:24:45.080 It's nothing there, There is nothing else. I mean, I mean. 2:24:45.080 --> 2:24:47.480 I remember talking. You know too many people in this 2:24:47.640 --> 2:24:50.360 You say anything and they'll say, well, look at the billing, 2:24:51.520 --> 2:24:54.640 look at the grosse. I don't want to say the 2:24:54.640 --> 2:24:58.680 billing and the gross are wrong the great, but that's 2:24:59.000 --> 2:25:00.279 not what it's about. 2:25:00.959 --> 2:25:03.160 Yeah, you know, it's like you do you remember do 2:25:03.160 --> 2:25:06.520 you know Jeremy Lubbock? Do you remember that name? Jeremy 2:25:06.560 --> 2:25:07.480 was a string arranger. 2:25:07.600 --> 2:25:08.200 No, I don't know. 2:25:08.240 --> 2:25:11.400 It's probably the probably the greatest string arranger that La 2:25:11.480 --> 2:25:14.160 ever saw. And he abandoned la he couldn't do it anymore. 2:25:14.720 --> 2:25:17.240 And he did the string arrangements and the horn arrangements 2:25:17.280 --> 2:25:23.240 for I'm Breathless and Wow could he write? And we 2:25:23.240 --> 2:25:26.480 were in the studio working on that thing, and somebody 2:25:26.520 --> 2:25:30.640 said something about something about the money, and Jeremy said, 2:25:31.000 --> 2:25:33.280 and McDonald sells a lot of hamburgers, it does not 2:25:33.400 --> 2:25:37.080 make it hot cuisine exactly. Like that's right. It doesn't 2:25:37.080 --> 2:25:39.000 fucking matter how much money it makes, it doesn't make 2:25:39.000 --> 2:25:39.400 it good. 2:25:39.800 --> 2:25:42.480 Well, the other thing about when you talk about the 2:25:42.560 --> 2:25:45.720 record you're not going to put out Yeah, you know, 2:25:46.320 --> 2:25:49.120 you know, when you do great work. That doesn't mean 2:25:49.360 --> 2:25:51.879 I mean, yeah, you do it enough, you know you're 2:25:51.879 --> 2:25:54.640 never gonna do something bad. But you can't make it 2:25:54.720 --> 2:25:58.520 eleven every day. But when you make an eleven, you know, 2:25:59.640 --> 2:26:01.640 and you can also you could listen, you could read 2:26:01.680 --> 2:26:03.800 or listen to something, and you go, I don't care 2:26:03.840 --> 2:26:07.080 what anybody else thinks. It's missing something. 2:26:08.120 --> 2:26:11.440 Yeah, And this, all of this work I listened to 2:26:11.440 --> 2:26:13.760 the other night because I keep hoping I'm wrong, because 2:26:13.760 --> 2:26:15.920 there's a lot of work. It was, you know, a 2:26:16.400 --> 2:26:18.440 year's worth of work or something or ten months or 2:26:18.440 --> 2:26:23.080 whatever it was. And again, you know, like I have 2:26:23.120 --> 2:26:24.840 a board behind me on the wall here that I 2:26:24.920 --> 2:26:27.920 put all my song cards on, and there's nine of 2:26:27.959 --> 2:26:29.800 them up there right now, which are the nine songs 2:26:29.800 --> 2:26:31.800 from Love and Occasional War. And I wrote another one 2:26:32.240 --> 2:26:34.280 called the song that you wrote or the story that 2:26:34.320 --> 2:26:37.000 you wrote last week that I think will replace something 2:26:37.000 --> 2:26:38.680 on there. And I don't know what because I like 2:26:38.760 --> 2:26:41.880 them all, but it's it's pretty high bar. And it's 2:26:41.879 --> 2:26:45.160 coming from all of this agitation, of all of this 2:26:45.480 --> 2:26:48.560 promo and talking about career and oh my god, you 2:26:48.600 --> 2:26:51.240 know all this stuff that I just I don't even 2:26:51.280 --> 2:26:55.200 like doing it. You know, I'm just interested and now 2:26:55.240 --> 2:26:58.840 if I can do that. But you know that said 2:26:59.360 --> 2:27:03.160 those nines, there's twenty five that I wrote to get them, 2:27:03.320 --> 2:27:04.959 and the other ones no one will ever hear. They 2:27:05.000 --> 2:27:06.200 will never see the light of day. 2:27:06.280 --> 2:27:10.280 Wait to what degree is your process changed by working 2:27:10.280 --> 2:27:14.520 with Leonard? Wow? 2:27:14.560 --> 2:27:16.440 Did I learn a lot? And I'll tell you where 2:27:16.440 --> 2:27:20.879 I learned a lot? Is the thing of the lyric 2:27:22.720 --> 2:27:28.920 being complete. I think I learned what when complete is? 2:27:29.160 --> 2:27:31.720 I think I know when it's done now, and I 2:27:31.760 --> 2:27:33.800 don't think I knew before. I know I didn't know 2:27:33.840 --> 2:27:35.680 before because I listened to my lyrics from all those 2:27:35.760 --> 2:27:38.119 years ago. It's like, well it's kind of an idea, 2:27:38.200 --> 2:27:39.800 but you didn't really get it, did you. 2:27:39.840 --> 2:27:42.840 Well, well, okay, you have X number of songs on 2:27:42.879 --> 2:27:47.280 the board, and when you replace one with another, it 2:27:47.320 --> 2:27:50.640 is Is it as simple as that? Or is it 2:27:50.680 --> 2:27:55.280 because you worked with Leonard that you say there's something 2:27:55.400 --> 2:27:58.680 beyond and I'm searching for it and therefore I'm willing 2:27:58.720 --> 2:28:00.920 to work with it keep getting there. 2:28:03.280 --> 2:28:05.960 I think I think that the when you do a 2:28:06.000 --> 2:28:10.119 project like this one up on the board, the bar 2:28:11.440 --> 2:28:14.160 sets itself and then you you move it. You move 2:28:14.200 --> 2:28:17.680 it there at that spot, and you go under it 2:28:17.720 --> 2:28:24.440 sometimes and you go above it sometimes. And because I'm 2:28:24.480 --> 2:28:26.800 almost all of those songs with one exception, and the 2:28:26.800 --> 2:28:31.560 fucking song tortured me. Their lyric first, their lyric first songs. 2:28:32.040 --> 2:28:37.440 So you know, here's the lyric, right, this is for, 2:28:37.640 --> 2:28:40.000 this is for at the end of the day, and 2:28:40.040 --> 2:28:44.240 this is the one that's about Leonard. And this lyric 2:28:44.320 --> 2:28:47.240 didn't take me long because there's a narrative that follows 2:28:47.240 --> 2:28:51.760 a story about him that I knew, and I don't 2:28:51.800 --> 2:28:55.480 think I changed almost anything. But then there's those where 2:28:55.520 --> 2:28:57.360 you find yourself changing him to the point where you 2:28:57.360 --> 2:29:00.320 don't recognize him anymore. And then that means you take 2:29:00.360 --> 2:29:01.760 them up back and shoot him in the head and 2:29:01.760 --> 2:29:03.280 they fall in the pond, and that's the end of it. 2:29:04.640 --> 2:29:08.279 I will say. You know, people talk about the process 2:29:08.280 --> 2:29:11.440 where when it comes out just like that, like you're 2:29:11.520 --> 2:29:14.120 channeling it, that's always the best stuff. 2:29:14.560 --> 2:29:17.480 It's always the best. It's right, it really is. And 2:29:18.680 --> 2:29:21.960 it's the same with the music, you know, like the 2:29:21.959 --> 2:29:24.440 the thing of sitting at the piano and writing something 2:29:24.840 --> 2:29:28.720 or playing something or whatever it is. You know you 2:29:28.840 --> 2:29:30.760 know right away when it when it means something. I mean, 2:29:30.800 --> 2:29:32.680 I have a I have a little thing. I'll show 2:29:32.720 --> 2:29:36.240 you this when I when I'm when I teach. I 2:29:36.320 --> 2:29:39.560 used to do some songwriting classes, and I'd like to 2:29:39.600 --> 2:29:41.920 do some more. But one of the things I would 2:29:41.920 --> 2:29:43.600 always do is I'd ask the class. I'd say, do 2:29:43.640 --> 2:29:48.240 you know what this is? And you know, it's like no, 2:29:48.320 --> 2:29:51.560 And people with pitch would say it's for E'SE. I'd say, well, no, 2:29:52.680 --> 2:29:54.760 what is that? I go nothing. I'd say, well, you 2:29:54.800 --> 2:30:00.800 know what, let's try that. Let's change one note. It's like, oh, 2:30:00.840 --> 2:30:05.000 it's Beethoven's fifteen. It's like, so the most famous motif 2:30:05.320 --> 2:30:09.360 in all of fucking human history is made from one note. 2:30:10.720 --> 2:30:14.199 That's it. It's one note that distinguishes it from nothing 2:30:14.640 --> 2:30:18.360 to the most recognizable thing there is. So if you 2:30:18.480 --> 2:30:21.120 know that that's the way this works, you have a 2:30:21.120 --> 2:30:24.760 different quest that you're on, you know what I mean, Like, 2:30:24.840 --> 2:30:27.360 that's all it takes. It just takes that one thing 2:30:28.240 --> 2:30:32.400 that somehow sets your sets your mind. And I'm fairly 2:30:32.440 --> 2:30:35.520 certain that Beethoven had worked out at that point that 2:30:35.520 --> 2:30:38.320 that's all it took. It just you just need you 2:30:38.400 --> 2:30:40.080 just need that one shift. It just has to be 2:30:40.120 --> 2:30:40.560 the right one. 2:30:40.560 --> 2:30:42.760 Well, you know, it reminds me of something my psychiatrist 2:30:42.760 --> 2:30:47.840 says goes, sometimes you change one little thing and it 2:30:47.920 --> 2:30:51.480 changes the whole picture. Yeah, it's like the same thing. 2:30:51.920 --> 2:30:54.200 It's like you feel your stock and you're looking for 2:30:54.240 --> 2:30:58.800 big changes and one little thing it sets it going. 2:30:58.680 --> 2:31:01.680 And you're there. And I mean and sometimes it's especially 2:31:01.760 --> 2:31:05.920 in music, it can be very very very strange what happens. 2:31:05.920 --> 2:31:08.440 Because I'll i'll write something and i'll write a chord 2:31:08.520 --> 2:31:10.960 chart and I'll forget about it, like just something I 2:31:11.040 --> 2:31:13.720 do that didn't mean anything, and I'll write it out 2:31:13.920 --> 2:31:16.120 and I'll come and look at it and I'll start 2:31:16.160 --> 2:31:19.360 playing it, but there's no indication as to what it was. 2:31:20.280 --> 2:31:24.080 There's no tempo, there's no feel, there's no time signature, 2:31:24.320 --> 2:31:27.960 there's no nothing. And I start rolling around with this 2:31:27.959 --> 2:31:30.320 thing that's on a page, sitting on the piano, and 2:31:30.360 --> 2:31:34.320 it's like, wow, this is really interesting. And I realized 2:31:34.360 --> 2:31:37.279 that what I had written, i'd written, say, for example, 2:31:37.320 --> 2:31:40.600 in four to four, right, so just basic four four, 2:31:41.040 --> 2:31:43.400 and now for whatever reason, I'm feeling it in six 2:31:43.920 --> 2:31:46.640 or I'm feeling it in three, and now it has 2:31:46.720 --> 2:31:50.120 something and it's like well, why didn't have something before. 2:31:50.440 --> 2:31:52.680 It's like it didn't have something before because everything was 2:31:52.760 --> 2:31:56.520 one quarter note too long. The interest only happens when 2:31:56.560 --> 2:32:00.000 you condense it, you know, And that kind of discuss 2:32:00.000 --> 2:32:03.320 every is more interesting to me than being famous in 2:32:03.360 --> 2:32:04.199 the music business. 2:32:05.600 --> 2:32:05.800 You know. 2:32:06.040 --> 2:32:07.760 Fuck the music Fuck the music business. 2:32:07.840 --> 2:32:10.680 You know. Well, I guess going to an analogous thing. 2:32:11.600 --> 2:32:14.519 I don't know how they make these records with seventeen 2:32:14.600 --> 2:32:21.400 writers and twenty remixers because you're that acids, you know. Yeah, 2:32:21.440 --> 2:32:24.800 some of the greatest records of all time have mistakes, 2:32:25.080 --> 2:32:28.040 but they contain something which is indescribable. 2:32:29.080 --> 2:32:32.120 Well, also, this the thing about all of this stuff, 2:32:32.760 --> 2:32:36.360 and I stay away from the subject. But if you 2:32:36.520 --> 2:32:41.119 look at what you're hearing now, and because people aren't musicians, 2:32:41.160 --> 2:32:44.680 they don't know necessarily what they're hearing. There's four chords 2:32:46.000 --> 2:32:49.640 and sometimes three, and that's it. And it's the same 2:32:50.040 --> 2:32:54.200 on every song, same chords, same chord progression, and all 2:32:54.240 --> 2:32:56.840 the drum beats are made by machines, all the parts 2:32:56.840 --> 2:32:59.400 are quantized, made on a computer, all the vocals are 2:32:59.400 --> 2:33:01.800 pitched to the to death. None of these things are 2:33:01.800 --> 2:33:05.360 being sung naturally, So what exactly are you listening to 2:33:07.959 --> 2:33:10.560 what is it that you're hearing? You know? So if 2:33:10.560 --> 2:33:13.200 you're gonna if you're going to just do anything, so 2:33:13.240 --> 2:33:14.680 we just just play a little. 2:33:14.440 --> 2:33:26.359 Bit so little improvised chord progression. 2:33:27.000 --> 2:33:30.240 If you took those chords and you quantize them, and 2:33:30.280 --> 2:33:32.760 you put them all those block chords, and you put 2:33:32.800 --> 2:33:34.680 them right on the beat, it wouldn't mean a fucking thing. 2:33:35.720 --> 2:33:56.400 But if you can put something in it, and I 2:33:56.440 --> 2:33:58.960 can just go and go and go all day like that, 2:33:58.959 --> 2:34:02.120 that's what I do. And that's where the improvisation comes in. 2:34:02.160 --> 2:34:06.200 But if you can't feel it, why are you doing it? 2:34:07.760 --> 2:34:10.600 Well, I I say, I go the other way if 2:34:10.600 --> 2:34:13.520 you could, if you squeeze all the humanity out of 2:34:13.520 --> 2:34:14.600 the record, what have you got? 2:34:15.600 --> 2:34:20.520 That's right, there's nothing left. There's nothing left, nothing, you know. 2:34:20.720 --> 2:34:23.360 And if you take something simple, you know, like the 2:34:23.440 --> 2:34:25.119 chord progression of the day is it's. 2:34:24.959 --> 2:34:28.720 This, that's it. 2:34:28.720 --> 2:34:29.680 It's every song and. 2:34:29.600 --> 2:34:36.240 It's in this order or it's in this order, or 2:34:36.240 --> 2:34:37.040 it's in this order. 2:34:38.720 --> 2:34:39.720 They're all the same chords. 2:34:39.720 --> 2:34:43.720 There's four chords and everybody does them. So if you say, 2:34:43.800 --> 2:34:45.920 well that's all you get, well you can say okay, 2:34:45.959 --> 2:35:08.120 let's use them and go first chord, second chord. So 2:35:08.280 --> 2:35:11.880 that's the same progression everyone's using. But there's harmony in it, 2:35:12.040 --> 2:35:15.760 there's melody in it, and there's a musical knowledge. Without 2:35:15.840 --> 2:35:19.440 musical knowledge, what are you doing? You know, It's like 2:35:19.520 --> 2:35:23.760 it's like a conversation. We only know four words and 2:35:24.120 --> 2:35:26.640 that's what we're hearing it. It's heartbreaking, but it's you. 2:35:26.600 --> 2:35:51.080 Know, until next time. This is Bob Left six m