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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to Bob Leftnet's podcast. My guest

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Speaker 1: today is Patrick Leonard, who has a brand new album.

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Speaker 1: It all comes down to move Patrick. Why that title?

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Speaker 2: Why the title? Let me get this mic a little

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Speaker 2: bit lower so I can see my face. How are

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Speaker 2: you doing, Bob.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing pretty well. Good to talk to you.

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Speaker 2: I haven't seen you in a long time. Last time

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Speaker 2: we were outside the hotel cafe exactly, good men, Los Angeles. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was a good night. It was fun. Why the title?

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Speaker 2: The hotel cafe was Leonard Cohen's son Adam was playing

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Speaker 2: exactly and I was there with Leonard. And the title

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Speaker 2: of the record is something that Leonard said to me

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Speaker 2: when we first met, and it's from a song that's

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Speaker 2: really about little anecdotal leonardisms. And we were talking on

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Speaker 2: a very first meeting and he said, you know what

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Speaker 2: it's all about, And I said what he said, mood?

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Speaker 2: He said, your good mood, good life, bad mood, bad

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Speaker 2: life is really that simple and uh, and it really

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Speaker 2: stuck and I really saw him kind of live that

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Speaker 2: as the philosophy of like you just got to be

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Speaker 2: in a good mood if you want to be it

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Speaker 2: to be okay, and as silly as it sounds, it

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Speaker 2: resonates with me. So the song is called It's All

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Speaker 2: come down. The song is called at the end of

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Speaker 2: the Day, and the line is at the end of

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Speaker 2: the day, it all comes down to mood. So that's

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Speaker 2: that's what it is. It's something Leonard said to me.

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Speaker 1: Well, I was thinking also a different interpretation of the

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Speaker 1: mood of the music. Am I totally out of space here?

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Speaker 1: Is there a factor that I would say? I'd say

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Speaker 1: outer space isn't good? That's about right? Yeah, No, you

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Speaker 1: know the that's a nice interpretation. I hadn't thought of that,

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Speaker 1: and I like that one because it's a there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of moods in there, that's for sure. Tell me

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Speaker 1: about the issue the album, why'd you decide to do it?

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Speaker 2: Well, I suppose we need to tell the truth.

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Speaker 1: Here, right, absolutely.

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Speaker 2: So, my wife and I had relocated to the East

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Speaker 2: Coast where we are now. We're in Connecticut on a farm,

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Speaker 2: and at that time I've been doing some work with

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Speaker 2: Roger Waters on a solo project, and then he at

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Speaker 2: one point said, we're going to put that on hold

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Speaker 2: because I want to redo Dark Side of the Moon.

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Speaker 2: So I started working on that with him and worked

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Speaker 2: for a couple of months on it, and then I

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Speaker 2: then it was time to kind of get his band involved,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't feel like I wanted to do that

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Speaker 2: for some reason, so I backed out. And I you know,

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Speaker 2: he's I'm sure furiously pissed at me, but you know

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Speaker 2: that's what I did. And then, ironically and completely coincidentally,

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Speaker 2: at that same time, his ex bandmate Gilmore called me.

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Speaker 2: David called me and said, I want to make a

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Speaker 2: solo record. This is true. You know you can't make

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Speaker 2: this shit up. And he said I want to make

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Speaker 2: a solo record, and I said okay, and he started

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Speaker 2: sending me music and I started working on it and

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Speaker 2: sending him back and after a while, I felt like

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Speaker 2: I can't really help him. You know, this isn't working,

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Speaker 2: so I quit doing that too.

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Speaker 1: Well, okay, let's get a touch, let's get a time

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Speaker 1: right here. What year were you originally starting with Roger

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Speaker 1: Waters on this project.

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Speaker 2: On I would say probably Roger and I started in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: One, Okay, so it's during COVID.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly during COVID, And at the time I was

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Speaker 2: living in LA when we started.

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Speaker 1: And you abandoned that project because you didn't want to

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Speaker 1: go on the road.

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Speaker 2: No, it wasn't the road it was. It was it

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Speaker 2: was the dark Side project that Roger did, and I

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Speaker 2: think he did a lovely job on it. But it

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Speaker 2: came to this time when it was I was going

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Speaker 2: to just we were going to bring his band into

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Speaker 2: start doing this, and I felt like I didn't. I

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Speaker 2: didn't really feel that I didn't. It's not how I

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Speaker 2: wanted to do it, and it wasn't my record, and

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Speaker 2: it wasn't my project. It was his. But I think

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Speaker 2: it was partly Bob because after Leonard passed away and

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Speaker 2: people would say, what are you going to do? I

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Speaker 2: would my stock answer was I'm pretty sure Leonard Cohen's

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Speaker 2: the last house on the block in terms of collaborations,

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Speaker 2: and I really felt that I really did so, And

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Speaker 2: to this day, I have yet to write a song

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Speaker 2: with anyone else, you know, since twenty sixteen, and I

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Speaker 2: probably I might, but I don't see why I would.

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Speaker 2: And so this idea of working on things as a

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Speaker 2: producer and an arranger and a keyboard player and contributing

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Speaker 2: to other people's work, I really felt like it was

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Speaker 2: behind me, but hard to say no to, you know, Roger,

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Speaker 2: and hard to say no to David.

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Speaker 1: Okay, wait, wait, let's stop with David. What was your

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Speaker 1: history with David such as David knew.

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Speaker 2: You when I was when I made a Brian Ferry

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Speaker 2: record called Bete Noir, I think around nineteen eighty five

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Speaker 2: eighty six, something like that, And while we were doing it,

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Speaker 2: there was a song called Limbo that I had written

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Speaker 2: with Brian, and I said it would be great to

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Speaker 2: get Gilmour on this. It just felt like he would

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Speaker 2: be great on it, and Brian said, well, let me

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Speaker 2: call him. And the other thing is Guy Pratt was

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Speaker 2: playing bass on Brian's album, so there was easy ways

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Speaker 2: to get to David. And so the next thing we

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Speaker 2: found ourselves in England recording David's some guitars of David

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Speaker 2: on a couple songs, and then after a couple of days,

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Speaker 2: David invited me to lunch at his house and after

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Speaker 2: lunch we went to the boat where a studio was

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Speaker 2: and he had a dad player or a cassette player

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Speaker 2: or something and there was a little synthesizer and I

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Speaker 2: think he played bass and we just jammed for a

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Speaker 2: little while you know, and I think it all got recorded.

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Speaker 2: I didn't even realize it was being recorded, but we

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Speaker 2: were just jamming. And then sometime later, and I can't

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Speaker 2: remember exactly the timeline, I get a call and it's

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Speaker 2: David and he said, I'm in la and we're finishing

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Speaker 2: up the new record, which was Momentary Lapse of Reason,

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Speaker 2: and would you like to come up to the house

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Speaker 2: and hear where we are? And I said, of course.

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Speaker 2: So I come up and I'm sitting in this house

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Speaker 2: and listening to this playback and the song goes by

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Speaker 2: it and he says, do you recognize that? And I

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Speaker 2: said no, and he said, well, you wrote it. So

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Speaker 2: what he had done is he had taken this thing

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Speaker 2: that we did and made made a song out of it.

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Speaker 2: And so and then and then at that point he

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Speaker 2: would come to the house with you know, multi track

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Speaker 2: tapes and I put some synthesizers on some other songs

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Speaker 2: on the record, and so, you know, we kind of

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Speaker 2: kept we kept in touch after that, you know what,

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Speaker 2: in little ways, you know. And and then in fact,

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Speaker 2: the years later that I was working with Roger on

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Speaker 2: Amused to Death in and we were in England and

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Speaker 2: I was going out to you know, to see David,

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Speaker 2: or going to dinner or something just to see David,

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Speaker 2: or meeting him at a bar or go to his

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Speaker 2: house or whatever. Roger say, you know, go ahead, but

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Speaker 2: I don't want to hear about it. It was like,

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Speaker 2: you know, this weird tense thing. But anyway, that's how

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Speaker 2: that came about. And I think part of why the

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Speaker 2: relationship stayed as long as it has is, you know, guy,

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Speaker 2: we have Guy Pratt in common who's one of my

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Speaker 2: favorite bass players, and he's on Toy Mattnee and third

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Speaker 2: Matt Nane and like a prayer, it's all Guy Pratt,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So David says he wants to collaborate, you're

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Speaker 1: working on the tracks. What makes you decide this isn't

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Speaker 1: going to work?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think what in reality that you know, the

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Speaker 2: simple thing of it was that if somebody sends me

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Speaker 2: something and I listened to it, and I feel like

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Speaker 2: I can make it better, and this is the contribution

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Speaker 2: that I think I can make that will make it better,

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Speaker 2: and I make those contributions and it doesn't resonate, you know,

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Speaker 2: you don't. It's far from taking any of it personally.

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Speaker 2: It's like you can do a few of those and

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Speaker 2: then go, I'm not the guy who can help you.

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Speaker 2: You're looking for some other help. This is the help

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Speaker 2: that I know how to give.

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Speaker 1: You.

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Speaker 2: Know. I can take your progression that you sent me,

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Speaker 2: or your track that you sent me, and I can

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Speaker 2: do some edits on it, and I can rework it,

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Speaker 2: and I can add the section that I think it adds,

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Speaker 2: and I can do some things to the chord progressions

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Speaker 2: to broaden them in certain places, just things that my

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Speaker 2: ears and my musical gut tells me I need to do.

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Speaker 2: And it wasn't what he wanted, and so it was

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Speaker 2: like it was really simple. It's like, I just don't

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Speaker 2: think I can help on this.

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Speaker 1: You know. Okay, you did it and it was working

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Speaker 1: for you, but not working for him. That's right, that's fair. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's go back another step. Tell me about leaving La

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Speaker 1: for Connecticut.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think, like I said earlier, after after Leonard passed,

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Speaker 2: and even before Leonard passed, I wasn't working in LA

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Speaker 2: the way I used to work in LA because the

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Speaker 2: business had changed so much and it wasn't very it

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Speaker 2: wasn't as attractive to me as it a.

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Speaker 1: Little bit slower. Is that because opportunities were not well

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Speaker 1: put it bluntly had dried up? Or was it because

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Speaker 1: everybody was recording it home and people weren't using extra people.

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Speaker 1: What exactly change?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think everybody kind of well people in the

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Speaker 2: music business know what changed, but everyone has their own

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Speaker 2: personalized experience of what, you know, their version is. I

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Speaker 2: think for me, it was mostly about a lack of collaborators,

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Speaker 2: people that I wanted to work with, so I'd get

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Speaker 2: something would come up and it would be you know,

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Speaker 2: like I think one of the last records that I

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Speaker 2: did that I felt had any real purpose and meaning

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Speaker 2: and was good was a solo record that Pat Monaghan

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Speaker 2: did that he and I co wrote and I produced,

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Speaker 2: of Train Yeah, of Train Right. And it was a

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Speaker 2: tremendous record, and no one ever heard it because you know,

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Speaker 2: in the music business, the guy who's in a popular

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Speaker 2: band does a solo album, his record company and his

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Speaker 2: manager go, no one's ever going to know about this,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of an unwritten law. So that happened,

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Speaker 2: and after that there was some things that would come,

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Speaker 2: you know, and even well known artists, you know, and

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Speaker 2: I just thought, no I'm not feeling this anymore. And

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Speaker 2: then Leonard came along and we spent those years together

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Speaker 2: and it was just you know, fun and a great

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Speaker 2: experience and learning experience, and for excuse me, for obvious reasons,

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Speaker 2: and and then after that, I didn't. I just wasn't

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Speaker 2: feeling it, you know, I really wasn't.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to something you said earlier. After Leonard,

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Speaker 1: you reached a point where you felt you no longer

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Speaker 1: wanted to collaborate. Tell me about that.

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Speaker 2: Well, the thing of you know, creating music with an

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Speaker 2: artist who's the lyricist is primarily what I did, you know,

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Speaker 2: my in my career, with exceptions, a couple exceptions. And

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Speaker 2: the exceptions were because I thought this would be fun

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Speaker 2: just to be in a room while this happens, like

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Speaker 2: Elton or Roger or you know, like I don't need

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Speaker 2: to write any of this. I just want to be

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Speaker 2: in the room helping if I can. And so I think, uh,

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Speaker 2: I think it just it just didn't interest me anymore,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So would there be any situation, hypothetically where a

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Speaker 1: collaboration would look good again to you? I'm not talking

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Speaker 1: about changing your mind in the future everybody to change,

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Speaker 1: But is there any way it could be constructed, whether

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Speaker 1: you have input on the lyrics or something, or have

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Speaker 1: you pretty much been there, done that.

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Speaker 2: There's a couple of ways for me to look at that,

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Speaker 2: you know. One is that I do have interest in

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Speaker 2: doing other projects, but not necessarily record projects, and not

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Speaker 2: necessarily with a singer songwriter or another musician. The thing

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Speaker 2: of what I'm doing and what I've been focused on,

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Speaker 2: and how terribly satisfying I find it, is that this

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Speaker 2: is the first time I've ever done anything like what

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Speaker 2: I'm doing now where I didn't have to negotiate anything,

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Speaker 2: and that has shown me something that I like. I

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Speaker 2: like what I see when I'm not compromising anything, because

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Speaker 2: every record you make with another person in the room,

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Speaker 2: you compromise, and if there's five people in there is

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Speaker 2: five compromise. And I find that this feels more direct

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Speaker 2: and more focused, and also gives me something more to

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Speaker 2: build on as I'm doing more, you know, as I'm

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Speaker 2: writing more songs and doing more coming up with more

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Speaker 2: ideas and where I want to go and what i

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Speaker 2: want to do, I've found a little bit of a

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Speaker 2: path that feels good even in its you know, solo

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Speaker 2: aspect and it's you know, lonely aspect.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's close a gap. I interrupted. You tell me

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Speaker 1: again about moving to Connecticut.

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Speaker 2: We were in La Covid hit we moved to the

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Speaker 2: house in Michigan. We have a house in the Upper Peninsula,

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Speaker 2: Michigan that's an old family house that you know, has

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Speaker 2: been there for a long time, and we sat out

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Speaker 2: Covid there and then we really started talking about the

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Speaker 2: idea of maybe changing coasts, you know, just to do it.

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Speaker 2: And that also, you know, I'd been in La a

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Speaker 2: long time and really kind of you know, like you said, Ben,

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Speaker 2: they've done that. I felt like there wasn't anything that

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Speaker 2: was going to happen there that was going to surprise me.

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Speaker 2: And so we were looking in upstate New York and

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Speaker 2: we actually ended up here just because at the time

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Speaker 2: it was close to the Long Island Sound and Rogers

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Speaker 2: over there, and we have a little airplane that my

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Speaker 2: wife can fly, and so we were just gonna have

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Speaker 2: it be convenient for that and and that's really what

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Speaker 2: brought us where we are right here.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I don't want your address, but I'm from Connecticut myself.

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Speaker 1: What town do you presently live in.

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Speaker 2: We live in Killingworth and it is it is nowhere,

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Speaker 2: but it's great.

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Speaker 1: What's the next recognizable town.

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Speaker 2: Well, we're between Hartford and New Haven. Okay, if you

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Speaker 2: just go a line right up, we're right. We're somewhere

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Speaker 2: right in the middle off to.

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Speaker 1: The okay west little but you can see Long Island

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Speaker 1: Sound from where you are.

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Speaker 2: Well, no, but we, like I said, we have a

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Speaker 2: little airplane that we keep about nine miles from here,

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Speaker 2: and my wife is a pilot, and we take off

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Speaker 2: and one minute you're looking at the sound and in

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Speaker 2: ten minutes you're having lunch there. So that's the beauty

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Speaker 2: of what we have.

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Speaker 1: Okay, how long has your wife been a pilot?

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Speaker 2: Going on twenty years?

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Speaker 1: And this was before or after she met you. She

285
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Speaker 1: started before and do you know what motivated her.

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Speaker 2: She was on a ranch in northern California and they

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Speaker 2: had a little airplane and somebody stuck her in it

288
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Speaker 2: and said you turn this and you pull this and

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Speaker 2: it goes up, and she's you know, she learned to

290
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Speaker 2: fly and now she's quite a serious pilot. So yeah,

291
00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,960
Speaker 2: and it's a freedom, you know, we can go to

292
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Speaker 2: Boston for lunch, dixs an hour.

293
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,680
Speaker 1: And how big a plane do you own?

294
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Speaker 2: It's just a force eater.

295
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,920
Speaker 1: And one engine, two engines, one engine. Is she instrument rated?

296
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Speaker 2: She is and commercial rated.

297
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Speaker 1: Do you ever get scared in the air with her?

298
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:11,960
Speaker 2: No? No?

299
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Speaker 1: What about if there's weather? Certainly living on the East Coast,

300
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Speaker 1: is that a more of a judgment whether to go

301
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Speaker 1: up or not? It is?

302
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,720
Speaker 2: It is, yeah, And that's what separates the men from

303
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,600
Speaker 2: the boys right there. If you know, if you're going

304
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Speaker 2: to go, you better know you can make it.

305
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,920
Speaker 1: And how often does she go up in the plane?

306
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:35,160
Speaker 2: A lot? A lot? I mean right now we're going

307
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,560
Speaker 2: down to North Carolina and a little bit for her

308
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,520
Speaker 2: to work with her teacher down there, and so she's

309
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,720
Speaker 2: been flying some mad maneuvers, you know, and she couldn't

310
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Speaker 2: today because of the clouds, but you know, she she's

311
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Speaker 2: I mean, we won't go to breakfast in Poughkeepsie two

312
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Speaker 2: days ago.

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Speaker 1: You know.

314
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Speaker 2: It's that it's good fun. I'm really spoilt.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So if you you do have the access to

316
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Speaker 1: the plane, but you can certainly get to Boston. But

317
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Speaker 1: in terms of the epicenter of the culture in that area,

318
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Speaker 1: it's really New York and you're like maybe an hour

319
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Speaker 1: and a half a little bit longer from New York.

320
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Speaker 1: Do you care whatsoever?

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Speaker 2: No, Well, we're you know what we've done when we

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Speaker 2: needed to go into the city, or we wanted to

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Speaker 2: go into the city as we flying to Teeterborough, right

324
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Speaker 2: and forty five minutes where a Teeterborough And twenty minutes

325
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Speaker 2: later we're in town. And for even in New York

326
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Speaker 2: or that's quick.

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Speaker 1: And how often would you go to the city.

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Speaker 2: You know, we we've done it a half a dozen times,

329
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Speaker 2: you know, for various reasons. And I had some a

330
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Speaker 2: little thing I did for CNN a few months ago

331
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Speaker 2: regarding a Madonna thing, and we drove and once we drove,

332
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,399
Speaker 2: we said we should have you know, it would have

333
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:51,720
Speaker 2: been so much easier to fly.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you're living in Killingworth, do you know anybody there?

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00:17:58,640 --> 00:17:59,879
Speaker 2: Well? Now we do, we do.

336
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Speaker 1: Now.

337
00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,800
Speaker 2: I mean we've been here three years and so we've

338
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,159
Speaker 2: made some friends, and we found some restaurants, and we

339
00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,879
Speaker 2: got a good tailor and you know, yeah, even a

340
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:10,280
Speaker 2: good sushi bar. We're good.

341
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,040
Speaker 1: If I drop you anywhere, are you going to make

342
00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:14,679
Speaker 1: friends or is that your wife?

343
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,560
Speaker 2: Well, it's it's kind of neither of us. I think

344
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,879
Speaker 2: that what we have here, what really spawned a lot

345
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,639
Speaker 2: of this is just the airport. So because we're at

346
00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,320
Speaker 2: a little airport, and little airports are like little campuses,

347
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,480
Speaker 2: and so you immediately meet people who you have something

348
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,439
Speaker 2: in common with, you know, and pilots do less drugs

349
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,760
Speaker 2: than musicians, so you know, the reason to get to know.

350
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Speaker 1: So what kind of people hang out at the airports pilots?

351
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Speaker 1: I have realized that do they tend to be flying

352
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,920
Speaker 1: fanatics or wealthy people or what kind of interest in

353
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,320
Speaker 1: what kind of socioeconomic status are these people.

354
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,439
Speaker 2: We're at a small airport and the runway is not

355
00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,360
Speaker 2: long enough to land a jet, so the the extreme

356
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,080
Speaker 2: wealth is not there, which is you know, I think

357
00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,240
Speaker 2: it's nice because it's just people that love to fly,

358
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,200
Speaker 2: and they you know, they go from twenty to eighty,

359
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,600
Speaker 2: you know, in age. They're all over the place. And

360
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,959
Speaker 2: so we've you know, when we got here, we started

361
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:18,920
Speaker 2: having some parties and we would just get a list

362
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:21,480
Speaker 2: of people from the airport and invite them to the house.

363
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,239
Speaker 2: And now we have, you know, people to hang out with.

364
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,800
Speaker 1: That's very interesting. Now, did you sell your house in

365
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:32,000
Speaker 1: Los Angeles. Yes, so presently you just have the family

366
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,400
Speaker 1: place in Michigan on the up and the place in Connecticut.

367
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we have a condo in Valencia as well.

368
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:44,359
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're now living not completely in the Boonies,

369
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:50,720
Speaker 1: but not directly in the city. In terms of musical collaboration,

370
00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,600
Speaker 1: you want somebody to play on your with on a record,

371
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,560
Speaker 1: I realize you're now in control. Is everything done digitally?

372
00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,560
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter where you are or did you ever

373
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,119
Speaker 1: want to have people in your studio? Well, the.

374
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:12,080
Speaker 2: Like this record Like Mood, some people came here and

375
00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 2: some people worked remotely. And it was still during COVID,

376
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:20,199
Speaker 2: so you know, we still had that factor. But the

377
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,399
Speaker 2: musicians that were in New York were close by. Like

378
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,160
Speaker 2: Tony Levin is in Is. He's upstate and he came

379
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,600
Speaker 2: and a couple of times we flew to him because

380
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,680
Speaker 2: that was really easy. We just fly to Kingston. Jerry

381
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:37,040
Speaker 2: Leonard came here. Kevin who engineered and mixed, he was

382
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:38,840
Speaker 2: you know, he could come here because he's from the city,

383
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:40,439
Speaker 2: and we have a guest house and we have a

384
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,119
Speaker 2: guest room, and so we were able to accommodate people

385
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:49,119
Speaker 2: that way. John Pettitucci came here and the rest was

386
00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,199
Speaker 2: done remotely just because it was COVID time. You know,

387
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,800
Speaker 2: the idea of having musicians here is really something I

388
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,439
Speaker 2: will do in the future. And the building that I'm in,

389
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,520
Speaker 2: that's the student radio, can accommodate. You know. We can

390
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,760
Speaker 2: set up a band in here with a little bit

391
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 2: of adjustment, and I would love to do that, and

392
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,679
Speaker 2: I think the on next record I'll do that. I

393
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,280
Speaker 2: will have at least a small rhythm section and record

394
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 2: it to record together. You know, on this record it

395
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 2: wasn't done like that.

396
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 1: So tell me about the status quality size of your studio.

397
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 2: Well, it's the room I'm in right now has ten

398
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 2: foot ceilings and it's twenty by thirty five. And there's

399
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 2: another room on the other side of this with double

400
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,680
Speaker 2: doors that's the same size with higher ceilings. And so

401
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 2: this is the studio where in this room I have

402
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,360
Speaker 2: all my keyboards and my concert grant and my spinnet

403
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,120
Speaker 2: and my B three and all that stuff is here.

404
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 2: And the next room would be the tracking room and

405
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,440
Speaker 2: will be the tracking room. But we didn't track anything here.

406
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,920
Speaker 1: And the physical building existed when you bought it, or

407
00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 1: do you build it.

408
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 2: No, it was here. It was here. It was a workshop.

409
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: And you talked about the engineer on your record. But

410
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 1: to what degree are you an engineer or techi yourself?

411
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 2: Well, uh, once you're kind of set up, you know,

412
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 2: I have I have a lot of great pre amps

413
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 2: and a lot of great microphones. And once you're set up,

414
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 2: it's just a matter of pressing record and making sure

415
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 2: it's not too hot, and in terms of being able

416
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 2: to balance things, and you know that the idea of

417
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 2: mixing a record. I can mix a record, you know,

418
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 2: but I'm fairly independent. I can I can do this

419
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 2: by myself, except for you know, playing the drums and

420
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 2: the bass and the guitars. I'm fairly I'm good, you know.

421
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back. You wake up and you realize

422
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 1: LA is not working for you. At what point in

423
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,919
Speaker 1: this process do you say, I want to make my

424
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 1: own record.

425
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 2: Well, that's what That's what occurred after I realized I

426
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 2: really didn't want to make any other, anybody else's record.

427
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 2: And at first, when I looked at it, I thought, well,

428
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,399
Speaker 2: I've got a bunch of stuff. Let me listen to

429
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 2: what I have. Look at what I have, and it

430
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 2: just didn't feel like it was the beginning of any

431
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 2: kind of artistic you know piece. So I just started

432
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 2: from scratch. I just started writing songs and and that's

433
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 2: really just what happened, you know. And from there, as

434
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 2: soon as I had demos, I found the right drummer

435
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 2: to do what needed to be done, and Kevin came in,

436
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 2: and you know, I had Patti John Pattatucci's an old

437
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,640
Speaker 2: friend from New York and he knew Tony and Jerry

438
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 2: Leonard played guitar. He's an old friend from New York

439
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 2: and Kevin new him as well. So you know, that

440
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 2: part came together pretty quick. And my old guitar people

441
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 2: from l A. Wendy Melvoy and Tim Pearce and James Harrah,

442
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:53,959
Speaker 2: you know who. I've worked with all of them for

443
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:58,199
Speaker 2: three four decades. They're all on it. And then and

444
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 2: then the the guest guitar players Martin Barr on one song.

445
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 1: Now, how do you know Martin Barr?

446
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 2: I don't. It was a cold call.

447
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 1: It was a cold call, okay, let's be very specific,

448
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,360
Speaker 1: call or email.

449
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,959
Speaker 2: I don't remember who made the introduction.

450
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: But okay, so there was a mutual.

451
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 2: Friend somebody, somebody found something. Yeah, somebody knew a way

452
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 2: to get a way to eat mail. I think it

453
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 2: was I have to think about this, but I think

454
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 2: somebody got me an email address, and I just emailed

455
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: and went, here's what here is who I am, Here's

456
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 2: what I'm doing. Would you be interested? And and he

457
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 2: said he would be interested. And I sent him the

458
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: song which is the song sad ass World on the record,

459
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 2: that's Martin and he killed it.

460
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: In the email. How much did you reference him his

461
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: work in? Jeff wrote tolls. Were you a fanboy to

462
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 1: a certain degree or were you bore? Like I'm Patrick Leonard.

463
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: You know who I am?

464
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, I mean I don't. I don't

465
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,400
Speaker 2: remember if we even got into that sort of conversation.

466
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 2: But the truth is, between me and you, there was

467
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 2: no band for me better than Jethro Toll in the

468
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 2: mid seventies, you know, from like seventy three to seventy six.

469
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 2: Forget it.

470
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:16,719
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, big kady. These might be two different things,

471
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: but we'll talk best and favorite. What is the best

472
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: Jethro Toll?

473
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 2: Well, I would say thick as a brick, and I

474
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 2: would say the second best, which Ian Anderson hates his

475
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 2: Passion Play just because the second side of Passion Play

476
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,679
Speaker 2: is some of the most spectacular playing and arranging that

477
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 2: I think it must ever put on vinyl.

478
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: Okay, I love Thick as a brick, But tell me

479
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 1: why you think it's number one.

480
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 2: I think it's because of how old I was and

481
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 2: seeing it performed four times and seeing comparing it, you know,

482
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 2: to what I just seen the night before or the

483
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 2: week before, because in those days, it was concerts every

484
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: week everybody, you know, and we'd go and go and

485
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 2: go and go, and that was just was that was unreal, unreal.

486
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: Okay, you talk about starting becoming a fan in seventy three,

487
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 1: If you talk Jethro Tull, you have a bifurcation between

488
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: the this was people and everybody else. Right, So, Mick abrahams,

489
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: although does that mean anything to you or that's just

490
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: its old thing?

491
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 2: Well, I was because I played in bands with people

492
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 2: a lot older than me. When I was a kid

493
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 2: in Chicago at twelve, I went to the Kinetic Playground

494
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: and saw the first Zeppelin shows and the first Toll

495
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 2: shows ever that anybody saw in America. And I saw

496
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:45,959
Speaker 2: him at the same time, you know, that night at

497
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 2: the Kinetic where you know, it's a famous night. I

498
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 2: was there. I was twelve years old. Somebody's mother had

499
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 2: to drive us.

500
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:51,479
Speaker 1: You know.

501
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 2: So the the obsession possession, you know, laying on the

502
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 2: floor or with the headphones on a little bit stoned

503
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 2: listening to vinyls at nauseum was kind of that was

504
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 2: my life, you know, from very young until I went

505
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 2: on the road at sixteen years old with show bands,

506
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 2: you know, to buy, make money to buy keep Let's.

507
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 1: Stay, Let's stay with Tall. Okay, I dropped out at

508
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: a certain point. You still interested in what Ian does?

509
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 2: I'm not And I try to listen, and I really do.

510
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 2: And Ian's on the album as well, by the way,

511
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 2: he's playing flute on Bishops of Fright, and he doesn't

512
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 2: know Martin's on the record. They'll they'll find out, you know,

513
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 2: that they just made an album together. But and those

514
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 2: are the two guests, those are my two guests. And

515
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 2: that's who I wanted. I wanted I wanted Tall because

516
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: to me, that's what motivated me more than anything to

517
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 2: try to create something unique. Was Tall more than Yes,

518
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 2: more than Elp, more than Crimson, more than Floyd. I mean,

519
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 2: this was this was my you know, I'm that age.

520
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 2: This was the sauce, you know.

521
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to that famous night at the

522
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: Kinetic Playground. Did you go to see Tall?

523
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 2: No, we went to see Zeppelin. We didn't even know

524
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 2: till we're playing. I mean we heard their name on

525
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 2: the bill, but I didn't know who they were yet.

526
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: Okay, this was sixty nine, sixty eight, sixty sixty eight. No,

527
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: if it was Zeppelin had to be sixty to nine.

528
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 1: But in any event, having seen Zepplin a few times,

529
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: how were Zeppelin that night?

530
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 2: I think they were extraordinary because it was all new

531
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 2: and raw. And what I remember is Aaron what's his name?

532
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: He?

533
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 2: I think he ended up producing films.

534
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: Oh, Aaron Russo.

535
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 2: Aaron Russo. It was his place. It was called Aaron

536
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: Russo's Kinetic Playground, And there was the litter, Savoy Brown,

537
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 2: Jethra Tol and Zeppelin, and Zeppelin came out and played

538
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 2: a set, and then I think Tall played a set,

539
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 2: and then Zeppelin came back and Robert Planter, Jimmy Pager,

540
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 2: one of them said, you know, Aaron Russo just said

541
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 2: we can play do we drop? And I think it

542
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 2: was two in the morning or three in the morning,

543
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 2: that somebody's calling somebody's mom to see you can come

544
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 2: get us now, you know, for real, And so I

545
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 2: think it was that religious experience thing, you know, of

546
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 2: this thing that you've never seen anything like it in

547
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 2: a little tiny place for hours and hours and hours.

548
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: You know that said, I remember Tall more than I

549
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 2: remember zeb them from that night.

550
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: Okay, you had never heard Tall when you saw that show.

551
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 2: I think somebody had played me boret and I think

552
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 2: they were it was the stand Up. It was right

553
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 2: at stand Up because this was tour. They didn't tour,

554
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 2: so I think it was Martin.

555
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: I personally think this stand Up is the best album.

556
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,959
Speaker 1: And I certainly remember when the Inside stuffed and another

557
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: one I love, which was, you know, really slagged at

558
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: the time. I'm a big fan of Benefit.

559
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 2: I'm a huge those were it. You know, I always

560
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 2: say everybody has their three, so I sort of go, well,

561
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 2: it's it's stand up, Benefit and thick as a brick

562
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: would be my three. But then Passion plays in there

563
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 2: for numerous reasons, and then there's no more.

564
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: Well, you know the album on Chris Liss that he

565
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: did where they did all the research to decide what

566
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: people liked with Farm on the Freeway whatever. I thought

567
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: that was a good album. You know, that was a

568
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: famous album where he won Metal Album of the Year,

569
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: but that's not his fault. But I thought that was

570
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: a return to four.

571
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you know I wasn't. I wasn't listening anymore.

572
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: Okay, So you were a big brog rock guy.

573
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: Big. So if Channel Giant was really the you know

574
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 2: that was I was.

575
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: Okay.

576
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: I scared many a teenager out of my house with

577
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 2: Channel Giant. You know, I said, you gotta hear this,

578
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 2: and they go, what are you listening to? This is nothing?

579
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm good friends, Eric Schulman. But General Giant

580
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: never really broke in America. How did you know General Giant.

581
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: From seeing them open for Tall? They opened for Toll

582
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 2: and I bought the first record, and I have every

583
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 2: other record since I have them all finals. You know,

584
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: you're just exposing me completely here.

585
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: If we have a hierarchy of Prague, although I would

586
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: not call Jethro Toll Prague, but I don't want to quibble.

587
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: Paul is at the top, then General Giant, who comes

588
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: after that?

589
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 2: We're talking about that era?

590
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, if there's somebody from a

591
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: later era you want to put in, that's fine.

592
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 2: No, I would I would say that. I would say

593
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: that Toll ruled it, and Giant was something that I loved,

594
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: but they weren't the same kind of live band that

595
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 2: Tull was, and they're kind of it's it sounds weird,

596
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 2: but there kind of almost wasn't to anybody else. The

597
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 2: Floyd shows at the Auditorium Theater before Dark Side came out,

598
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 2: which I saw them a couple of times there, those

599
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 2: were things that were life changing. And then I saw

600
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 2: them do Dark Side at the Chicago Stadium and Rogers

601
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: Amp broke and it just didn't feel like that thing anymore.

602
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: And is as glorious as it was, it just wasn't

603
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 2: that tiny theater thing where you couldn't believe what was

604
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 2: going on. You know, A big Crimson fan, I was

605
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 2: a big Crimson fan. I was a Yes fan, though

606
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: I never felt that Yes was as good live as

607
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 2: their records and some of these other bands. I felt

608
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 2: like they were better live than their records. And you know,

609
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: I don't know slidle over.

610
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: Staying with Floyd. Were you in on the Amagama Adam

611
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: Hart mother level.

612
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, right at the beginning, Piper's at the

613
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: gates are done.

614
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to growing up. You grew up

615
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: where exactly.

616
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 2: I was born in Upper Michigan, and at six years

617
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 2: old we moved to Displains, Illinois, which is just outside

618
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 2: of o'haa airport in the northern suburbs of Chicago.

619
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 1: And your father and mother did what for a living.

620
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 2: My mom was a journalist, ran a newspaper in Michigan,

621
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: and then when we got to Chicago, there was a

622
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 2: company that she worked at and she ran the newspaper

623
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 2: for the company. It's all she ever did. And dad

624
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 2: was a musician who did whatever else he did so

625
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 2: that he could go play gigs on the weekend.

626
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's where it's going. So there was music

627
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: in the house for minute one.

628
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And my sister was a concert pianist and

629
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 2: eighteen years old in nineteen sixty eight, So I was

630
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 2: at the Grand Park sly Stone thing. I was nine

631
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 2: years old. She brought me. I was there, Okay, so

632
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: I saw Hendrick. She brought me to see Hendrick. She

633
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 2: brought me. She's turned me onto all that stuff. You know,

634
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 2: Dylan and all of it.

635
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: Okay, so only two kids in the family.

636
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 2: Three my younger, but my younger sisters. She was just

637
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: too young to have any effect on what was going

638
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 2: on artistically or musically.

639
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: You know. Okay, you're talking about Hendricks, you talk about

640
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 1: all this era, three best shows you've ever seen. We're

641
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 1: not locking in an amber, so relatively off the top

642
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:15,439
Speaker 1: of your head.

643
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: Okay. So so I would say, and I actually have

644
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 2: a tape of this show. Here that a front. We

645
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:24,720
Speaker 2: used to sneak a Nagra into these.

646
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,399
Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait, wait a second. How did you have a.

647
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: Nagara in under a coat?

648
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: No? No, no, no, no that way.

649
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 2: It wasn't me that did it.

650
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: No, the Nagra until digital recording was the peak.

651
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 2: Yes it was.

652
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: The average kid did not have a vograa. They had

653
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,240
Speaker 1: a little moroaco. How did you have a bagraa?

654
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 2: It was one of the kids in high school's father's

655
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 2: thing and he had it. And we have I have

656
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 2: all kinds of shows, but I'm telling you I have

657
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 2: stuff for freak out. I have like Tarcas, you know,

658
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 2: Crimson stuff, Jeff Beck stuff. But what we have is Eclipse,

659
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 2: which is them touring Floyd touring metal and then experimenting

660
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 2: with Dark Side before they recorded it, and that show

661
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 2: was a life changer. The thickest a brick show was

662
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 2: a life changer. And I'd say the third show I wouldn't.

663
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: I couldn't put my finger on it. I mean Leon

664
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 2: Russell maybe you know, or Elton, those those early Elton

665
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 2: gigs or the early I mean, I was a huge

666
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 2: Leon fan and it's on the other side of the spectrum.

667
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 2: But well, Leon could just you know, he was crazy,

668
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 2: big influence on me too, both of them.

669
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: How did you get into Leon?

670
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 2: I'm a piano player.

671
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, when I remember Leon the second Joe

672
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: Cocker album, he had the credit for writing Delta Lady Okay.

673
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,720
Speaker 1: And then I went back and bought the first solo

674
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:51,240
Speaker 1: album Ben Mad Dogs and Englishman happened, and then Leon

675
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: Russell and the Shelter People.

676
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 2: Leon became gigantic, right. However, I think that.

677
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: I burned out on Leon. I'm the Triple Leon Live album.

678
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: I found that was one step too far.

679
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I was the first album and then

680
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,720
Speaker 2: Shelter People, those two albums which would which would parallel

681
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 2: the Elton John and Tumbleweed connection. They were you know,

682
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 2: they were cousins at the same time. And then for

683
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 2: me it was Mad Dogs and so those three those

684
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: were those are my three leons.

685
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 1: Did you see Mad Dogs live?

686
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 2: I did not.

687
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 1: I did see that one.

688
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: I wish I had. Let's go back, I wish I had.

689
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,879
Speaker 1: So your father's musician. Do your parents make you take

690
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: piano lessons? Like at age five six?

691
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 2: No, behind me here sitting right there.

692
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: This is not video, but you're showing to me, so

693
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: describe it.

694
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 2: There's a nineteen fifty nine chickering sitting behind me that

695
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,720
Speaker 2: my parents bought a nineteen fifty nine for my sister Mary.

696
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 2: I was three, and at that point she started teaching

697
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,280
Speaker 2: me songs from the sound of music, and at five

698
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 2: I accompanied the High School of v show. I was

699
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 2: the accompanist in first grade. So it's I've never done

700
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 2: anything else, and I don't. I don't what am I

701
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 2: I'm just obsessive, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not.

702
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,320
Speaker 2: I don't have that kind of crazy brain where I

703
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 2: can just hear things and know them. I don't have

704
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 2: that at all. I just I'm just a bit obsessive,

705
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 2: and I have a deep Midwestern work ethic that keeps

706
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 2: me at it no matter what.

707
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 1: Okay, so did you ever take lessons? I did?

708
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 2: I took. I took piano lessons. There's a there's a

709
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 2: family story. In fact, the book is still in that

710
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 2: piano bench where the teacher said he doesn't know the alphabet,

711
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 2: so I can't teach him this yet. And so I

712
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 2: did take piano lessons, and I took classical lessons as

713
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 2: well as jazz lessons, probably till I was about twelve, thirteen, fourteen,

714
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 2: and then you know, I was just playing bands all

715
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:00,240
Speaker 2: the time.

716
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: And how good a reader are you?

717
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 2: I suck at it. I suck at it. And the

718
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 2: reason I suck at reading is that I've always been

719
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 2: reluctant to learn other people's music. I never wanted to,

720
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,439
Speaker 2: and I still don't. I don't really study other people's work,

721
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 2: you know, in listening to bands when I was a kid.

722
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 2: The one thing that I remember doing just because I

723
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 2: was I felt I needed to, is I spent a

724
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 2: year learning tarcas, you know, because I wanted to be

725
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 2: able to play it. But that's that's as far as

726
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 2: it went. I to this day, I couldn't play any

727
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,399
Speaker 2: of those songs and I couldn't play targets anymore either.

728
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 2: That takes younger hands.

729
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 1: Okay, you're almost date your seven Oh when the Beatles

730
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,839
Speaker 1: are on at Sullivan, does that mean anything to you

731
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 1: at the time?

732
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 2: It does, because I had a sister who was obsessed

733
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 2: with it, and so I had beatle boots and a

734
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 2: beatlewig when I was seven years old. Like no shit,

735
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 2: I was right there with it. It was cool. And

736
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 2: because Dad was a musician and we had a record

737
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 2: player in the house, all those records were there too,

738
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 2: So it was everything Mary brought home from Maretha to

739
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 2: all the Smoky Robinson and all the R and B

740
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 2: stuff and whatever rock and roll she was listening to.

741
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 2: And Dad was listening to George sheringhen Stan Getz and

742
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 2: Oscar Peterson and Charlie Parker and Joe Beam, you know,

743
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 2: and it was all in the house at the same time.

744
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: Okay, you're obsessive about playing the piano, but you're going

745
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: to school at the same time. So how well were

746
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,399
Speaker 1: you doing in school? How socialized were you at school? No? Good?

747
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 2: You know, little cluster of friends that hung out in

748
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 2: our rooms and listen to records and bad grades all

749
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 2: the time, and out at sixteen years old, I went

750
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 2: on the road. I never finished any of it.

751
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: Okay, you're young. When the Beatles break and people were

752
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,720
Speaker 1: a little older, you immediately bought guitars and formed bands.

753
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,240
Speaker 1: When did you start forming bands?

754
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 2: When I was nine, my dad and I were taking

755
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 2: lessons from a brilliant man in Chicago, Naed Vince Duresi.

756
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 2: He was a jazz court of box player, which is

757
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 2: like an accordion, but it makes it sounds like an organ,

758
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 2: and he was an amazing player. And Dad was taking

759
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 2: lessons from him as a sax player, but so it

760
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 2: was just theory. And then I was taking lessons from

761
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 2: him as a pianist, and so he taught me to

762
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 2: walking basslines and chords and chorden versions, you know, jazz

763
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: chord in versions. And this is a crazy thing. But

764
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 2: my dad would play on weekends all the time. He's

765
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 2: played on weekends, and they had a supper club gig

766
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 2: that was ongoing, and the quarterbox player, his quarterbox player

767
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 2: worked at J. C. Penny in the shoe department and

768
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 2: didn't end till nine o'clock on Friday. So I had

769
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 2: to play the first two sets so dad bought me

770
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 2: a far fees of mini compact really nine, yeah, so

771
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,720
Speaker 2: I could play this trio gig with my dad drums,

772
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 2: him and me. And now I'm a nine year old

773
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 2: or a ten year old who can play the intro

774
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,280
Speaker 2: to light my fire and I've got my own organ.

775
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: So I was in every band in the neighborhood with

776
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 2: guys that were many, you know, much my senior, because

777
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 2: I could go at nine or ten. I think it

778
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 2: was about ten when that came up.

779
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 1: And then was there a dream at that point?

780
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 2: I don't know if I don't remember. And this is

781
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:30,919
Speaker 2: somebody asked me this recently and I said, I don't

782
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 2: remember ever thinking about anything else. You know, it was

783
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 2: about getting the equipment, and then getting a Hammond organ,

784
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 2: and then getting a Leslie and then getting a Wurlitzer piano,

785
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 2: and you know, that was it. I played in a

786
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 2: band that played at the Aragon when I was thirteen

787
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 2: years old, and we had a melotron that we bought

788
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 2: from Rick Nielsen at Nielsen Music in Rockford, Illinois. When

789
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 2: he was in a band called Firecracker. He just worked

790
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 2: at his dad's music store and the mother of the

791
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 2: guitar player and the band had to take a second

792
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 2: on the Cadillac to pay for the thing. And I

793
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 2: have pictures of me sitting at this thing, you know,

794
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 2: playing a melotron and whatever else I had at the time,

795
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 2: at the Aragon Ballroom in Chicago. I was twelve or

796
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 2: thirteen years old.

797
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: Okay, your father was what we call a working musician.

798
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 1: But music took over the world. Not that there was

799
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: music before and not that there's not music today, but

800
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: people who lived through that era, No, it was different.

801
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:32,760
Speaker 1: Along with playing music, these people were very famous, very rich.

802
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 1: Did you have any desire to be a star or

803
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: you always said, I'm just playing music and who knows?

804
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, none of that. For me, it was

805
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 2: just think. I think I was always more obsessed with

806
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 2: the actual playing and the notes and the writing, and

807
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 2: the writing was probably the most important. I mean, one

808
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 2: of my favorite parts of being a musician is the

809
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 2: ability to improvise, to just sit down at the piano

810
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 2: and play and improvise. And I have thousands of hours

811
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,879
Speaker 2: of improvisation with no intention of anyone ever hearing it,

812
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 2: just because it serves me. And that's where I find things.

813
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 2: So the themes and things that I've come up with

814
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 2: over the years that for songs, they're just a matter

815
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: of sitting down and improvising and go, oh, that's cool,

816
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 2: and I write it on a piece of manuscript paper

817
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 2: and becomes a song.

818
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: Okay, assuming your home on a regular basis and is

819
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: supposed to traveling for whatever reason, do you play the

820
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 1: piano every day? Yeah, every day, and every day is different.

821
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 1: How many hours might you play the piano?

822
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 2: It depends, I mean my work. It depends on what

823
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 2: I'm on and right now, because I'm starting to promote

824
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 2: this record, and it's a little bit new territory for

825
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 2: me just to be so occupied with these things and

826
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 2: these performances and interviews and things that I've had to

827
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 2: just stop my work process. My normal thing goes from

828
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 2: waking up at one in the morning with a lyric

829
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 2: idea and dictating it into my phone and then sending

830
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,359
Speaker 2: it to my computer down here and coming down and

831
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 2: writing the music for it, and coming back to the

832
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 2: house about two in the afternoon to have something to eat,

833
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 2: and then go back in the studio to pass out,

834
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 2: you know. And that's not uncommon for me, and I

835
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 2: like it that way. It's you know, I have sometimes,

836
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,240
Speaker 2: you know, sixteen seventeen hours in the studio just by myself.

837
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 2: And if it's not writing, its recording something I've already written.

838
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 2: I tend not to write lyrics in the studio. I

839
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 2: don't like to. I tend to write them away from

840
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 2: the instrument. I don't see it at the piano and

841
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 2: write lyrics. I write lyrics elsewhere, usually just in the

842
00:44:56,239 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 2: house in the dark, you know, at night. And so yeah,

843
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 2: the answer to how much do I play right now?

844
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 2: Not as much as normal because I'm doing this, you know,

845
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 2: but if we weren't doing this, I'd be playing right now.

846
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,720
Speaker 1: Okay, do you write the lyrics first or the music first?

847
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 1: Or it's different in every case?

848
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 2: Well, there's those two. There's those two cases, right, And

849
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 2: the what I would say about it is that I

850
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 2: prefer the lyric first songs. So where I would normally

851
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 2: just sit at the piano or come up with something

852
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 2: or wherever I'm sitting, whatever instrument I'm sitting at, even

853
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 2: if it's the computer here behind me, because I have

854
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 2: it's not on right now, but I have, you know,

855
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: I can sit down and play things here too, and

856
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 2: that that way they get recorded, right it's so much

857
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 2: harder to get a shape, and my tendency, or I

858
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 2: think it's probably a lot of people do it this

859
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 2: way is you put the music down, and then you

860
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 2: put a melody down, because you have a melody, you know,

861
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 2: if you're writing a song, there's a melody, and so

862
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 2: I sing the melody down, and then I spend however long,

863
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 2: agonizing over trying to make those syllables that came out

864
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 2: of my mouth, the nonsense that came out of my mouth,

865
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 2: to fill in that melody into words, and it's no

866
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 2: fun and it makes bad lyrics. So the best way

867
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 2: for me is to write something from a thought, from

868
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 2: a feeling, from a concept and flush it out as

869
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,760
Speaker 2: best I can before there's music, and then put music

870
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 2: to it. There's songs on this record, like it all

871
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 2: comes down to mood. I think I wrote three versions

872
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 2: of it, and I could write another one right now

873
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 2: because I can just look at the lyric and sing

874
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 2: something else. You know, it's fairly simple to do, and

875
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 2: so that's what I prefer. You know, it's a long answer,

876
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 2: but that I prefer lyrics first.

877
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: Okay, this was to say Elton doesn't write the lyrics,

878
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 1: but it's the same thing. Bernie delivers lyrics, he writes

879
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: the music. You ever discussed it with Elton?

880
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 2: I made an album where the wit he did it.

881
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I produced songs on the West Coast. I

882
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 2: watched him do it.

883
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: I Chosemoke Up Your Ass. That is the best certain

884
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 1: you know, the best later period Elton album by far.

885
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:27,959
Speaker 2: And while we were doing it, he said, we're making

886
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 2: Tumbleweed Connection, aren't we. I said, yeah, we are, you know,

887
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 2: because that was my obsession, you know.

888
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: You know, well the birds is on that album. Yep, Birds,

889
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: I love that. So that's a real go back to

890
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 1: what once was.

891
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 2: Okay, I'll tell you a little story about Birds. Well,

892
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 2: the the the method of that thing. When we when

893
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 2: we started doing it, he said, Bernie's up and sanyonez

894
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 2: go up and see him. He's got two hundred lyrics.

895
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 2: Pick your favorite ones. So I went up to spend

896
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,040
Speaker 2: a couple of days with Bernie. Picked my favorites. I

897
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 2: think there was ninety of them out of the two hundred.

898
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 2: Elton picked his favorites. We took the ones that were

899
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 2: the same and we made a notebook that I think

900
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 2: had seventy or five or eighty lyrics and I still

901
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 2: have the notebook. I love this thing. And studios, set

902
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,959
Speaker 2: up drums, set up two or three drum kits, couple

903
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 2: grand pianos, guitar ramps, players, my keyboard, shit, everything there,

904
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 2: no songs. Day one, everyone's there and Elton comes in

905
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 2: and he goes to the piano and he opens a

906
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 2: book and it takes him less than a minute, and

907
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 2: he goes bat and he comes in. He shows me

908
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 2: it's done. I mean I want to say it's done.

909
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 2: I mean, it's done. He's done it. And I never

910
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 2: saw anything like it. And we had the whole albums

911
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 2: done that way. So Birds was one of those. When

912
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,760
Speaker 2: he wrote Birds and we started putting down this track.

913
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 2: We finished it that day. It was like that one.

914
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 2: We just finished. We never did another thing to it

915
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 2: except mix it. It was one day written and recorded.

916
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go a little bit deeper. Does he ever

917
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: sit down and play you go? No? I think you

918
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,720
Speaker 1: should try something else, Elton, Yeah.

919
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 2: No, too much of a groupie. I mean Elton, Elton's

920
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 2: you know, Elton's the highest bar for me in terms

921
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 2: of just a creative spirit. He really is. He's absolutely

922
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:18,760
Speaker 2: breathtaking when you watch him find these things so naturally

923
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 2: and so quickly and so humbly. We just share something

924
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 2: with you. We just last October recorded Leon's a Song

925
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 2: for you, and I asked Elton if you would do it,

926
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 2: because I want to make a little commemorative Leon record.

927
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 2: And I asked him if he would do it, and

928
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 2: he city would, but I don't want to play the

929
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,720
Speaker 2: piano part. So I played the piano part and Elton

930
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 2: sang it. So I have this thing of these two

931
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 2: artists that I couldn't get enough of when I was

932
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 2: twelve years old. And we did it at Sunset Sounds.

933
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 2: So the piano that I played on the session was

934
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 2: Leon's piano. It was the same piano that he did

935
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 2: the original in the same room, all coincidental. And then

936
00:49:58,200 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 2: I came home and played it on my piano here

937
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 2: because it was a one hundred and twenty year old

938
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 2: piano and it didn't quite have the life in it,

939
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 2: so I replayed it. But anyway, so that aside Elton,

940
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 2: there's nobody like Elton, and all you have to do

941
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 2: is watch him do this thing.

942
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 1: Oh okay, okay, why did Elton not want to play

943
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: the piano part? On a song for you.

944
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 2: It's not it's a tricky part. It's a tricky thing

945
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 2: to play that, especially if you're going to do it

946
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 2: true to form. A lot of people haven't done it,

947
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 2: you know. They just played the chords and they put

948
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 2: their own intro and whatever. But that little intro.

949
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: Like yeah, yeah, one in the middle.

950
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 2: It's not easy. It's it's a very strange thing. And

951
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 2: it's for Leon, you know. He he talked about it

952
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 2: after a couple of times. He said, I didn't I

953
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 2: didn't plan that. It's just what I did. And it

954
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 2: has that in it. It has some sense of like

955
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 2: this is just a linear thought. It's not. It's not

956
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 2: worked out at all, and so it makes it a

957
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 2: little tricky, you know, And it was. It took me

958
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 2: to me a long time to get it.

959
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 1: Elton works fast, work with a lot of people. Do

960
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: you have an opinion, I'm fast and slow.

961
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 2: Uh, I don't think. I don't think it matters. I

962
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 2: think that although slow can sometimes be an indication of

963
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 2: an uncertainty, and I think you have to know you know,

964
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 2: the person that second guesses and that's why they're slow.

965
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 2: Got no time for that.

966
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back. So you play with your father

967
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 1: and then he got all these keyboards. You drop out

968
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 1: of high school.

969
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 2: To go on the road, Yeah, I had. Actually, I

970
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 2: drop out is the wrong thing. I was thrown out

971
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 2: of high school because I was incorrigible and didn't have

972
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: the grades I was going to need to graduate. And

973
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 2: all I was doing was playing piano all day. I

974
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 2: would go to home room in the morning, and that

975
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 2: meant that they felt you were they thought you were there,

976
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 2: and then I would my folks were both at work.

977
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 2: I'd go home, play the piano all day and come

978
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 2: back at the end for me classes at the end

979
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 2: of the day. And that a couple of years of that,

980
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 2: and you're not going to get you to Bloma. So

981
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 2: I was out and I was sixteen, and there was

982
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 2: a kid in one of my classes who knew me,

983
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:17,359
Speaker 2: and his mother was associated with a show band and

984
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 2: they needed a keyboard player. And he just said, I

985
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 2: know this guy and maybe he can do it, and

986
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 2: they called me, and his mother drove me to Traverse City, Michigan,

987
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 2: where I joined this show band and played with him

988
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 2: for a couple of years. And you know, the guy

989
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 2: was a pianist and I played keyboards behind him, so

990
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,959
Speaker 2: and there was no charts, so he'd do some version

991
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 2: of rhapsody and blew and I had a chord chart,

992
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 2: so I'd have to kind of create orchestrations. And I

993
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 2: think it did me a lot of good because it

994
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 2: was flying by the seat of your pants sort of thing,

995
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 2: you know.

996
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: Okay, when you went on the road with the show band,

997
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 1: did you have a band that was playing parties and

998
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 1: shows at the same time. Were you giving anything up

999
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 1: to go on the road with the show band?

1000
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no no. I was giving up getting

1001
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 2: away from my parents being disappointed me from being thrown

1002
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 2: out high school. I don't think my dad was, but

1003
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 2: I think my mom was a little bit put off.

1004
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,760
Speaker 2: And also I think they both thought, you've really chosen

1005
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 2: a crazy path, man, you really have, because it was

1006
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 2: clear I wasn't going to do anything else. But you know,

1007
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 2: it's a Midwestern family with a lot of musicians in

1008
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 2: the family, and none of them have ever made a

1009
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 2: dime from it, you know, enough to buy a couple

1010
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,840
Speaker 2: of beers, So I think they were, you know, nervous.

1011
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 1: Okay, looking back fifty odd years later in your career,

1012
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 1: have you ever had a moment where you were broken

1013
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: out of money.

1014
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, yeah, okay.

1015
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 1: So let's go back. You're playing with the show bad.

1016
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 1: Is that like a fifty week a year job or

1017
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: is that interbidden?

1018
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 2: No, it's there. They're out all the time. They're just out.

1019
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:56,919
Speaker 2: This is these people live in their motor homes and

1020
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 2: their you know whatever hotels and go to a club

1021
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,759
Speaker 2: and you're there for a month, and it's six nights

1022
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 2: a week, you know, and there's a show, and then

1023
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 2: there's dance sets.

1024
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 1: You know.

1025
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 2: That's the way that stuff worked back in those days.

1026
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 2: So there would be like two shows that were an

1027
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 2: hour long or fifty minutes or whatever they were with

1028
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 2: whoever the band belonged to, and then he wouldn't be there,

1029
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:23,319
Speaker 2: and there'd be dance sets to fill the time in

1030
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 2: between in these clubs, and sometimes that went to three

1031
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 2: in the morning, and oftentimes just for candles. You know,

1032
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,240
Speaker 2: you're just excuse me, you're just playing for candles.

1033
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 1: Okay, you're a teenager on the road. Sex drugs. Were

1034
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: those a part of the lifestyle?

1035
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 2: Not in this case, no, because it was it wasn't

1036
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 2: rock and roll, you know, and you need that third

1037
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 2: one to get those first two. You know what I mean.

1038
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:56,800
Speaker 2: You don't get sex and drugs in a show band,

1039
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:57,359
Speaker 2: you know.

1040
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:01,399
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're doing the show, you're playing music, you're

1041
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 1: getting paid. Are you saying to yourself this is great?

1042
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: Or I got to move on from this?

1043
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:08,840
Speaker 2: Well, what I was doing is I was I was

1044
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 2: obsessively practicing during the day. So because and this was

1045
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 2: just the twist of fate, because this first gig was

1046
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 2: with a pianist and they brought a real piano. I

1047
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:21,320
Speaker 2: could go into the club and the day and practice.

1048
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,280
Speaker 2: And so I did, and I practiced, and I practiced

1049
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 2: and I practiced, and with the intention that I'm going

1050
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 2: to buy keyboards. I'm going to get my own keyboards,

1051
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 2: and I'm going to get my chops even better, and

1052
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 2: then I'm going to go start a band or you know,

1053
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 2: you know, somebody's gonna hire me or whatever it was,

1054
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 2: you know, whatever it was. So what was it? It

1055
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 2: was a bunch of little things along the way. I

1056
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 2: think when I was I was fourteen, and there was

1057
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 2: a guy in Chicago named Paul Bogus Junior, and he

1058
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 2: got a record deal. Larry Carlton signed him to a

1059
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:59,399
Speaker 2: record deal. And I had played on the demos, and

1060
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:04,760
Speaker 2: I was thirteen, and Larry said to Paul he wanted

1061
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:06,760
Speaker 2: to do the record in Chicago with the same guys

1062
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 2: that had done the demo. And so the first day

1063
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:11,719
Speaker 2: in the studio, Larry came and put his hand on

1064
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 2: my shoulder. I was sitting at a Fender Roads and

1065
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 2: he said, tell me, I didn't just hire a high

1066
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:20,360
Speaker 2: school freshman record. I think you did, so, Larry, and

1067
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 2: I you know, I knew Larry from back then.

1068
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:26,200
Speaker 1: And wait, wait, wait, you knew Larry personally?

1069
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 2: Yeah? How yeah, from that record because I.

1070
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 1: Played, oh you met him on the record.

1071
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 2: You didn't know you met him on the record?

1072
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 1: Right?

1073
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 2: And then? And then a couple of years after that,

1074
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 2: I think I was sixteen or seventeen. It was actually

1075
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 2: what it was is it was after a year of

1076
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 2: the show band. I came to La. I think I

1077
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 2: was seventeen.

1078
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 1: Whoa, wha, wha, wha, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's wait,

1079
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:51,320
Speaker 1: let's let up. You're playing in the show band.

1080
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:53,839
Speaker 2: I haven't strung this together in a long time.

1081
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 1: You're playing in a show band. You just said. In

1082
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 1: addition to moving in La, you moved with your band.

1083
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:04,840
Speaker 2: No no, no, no, no, what what what? What? I

1084
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:05,359
Speaker 2: had a van?

1085
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 1: Yeah? Oh business.

1086
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:09,560
Speaker 2: So what I did was I had my keyboards and

1087
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 2: I thought, I'm going to go to LA and I'm

1088
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 2: going to see what I can do. Now I'm seventeen and.

1089
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 1: Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait. How

1090
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 1: many keyboards do you put in the van?

1091
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 2: Uh? Well, it was one of those four d'conoline vans, right,

1092
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 2: And so I think I had a Fender Rhodes and

1093
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 2: a clavinet and uh Mini Mogue. Maybe I think that's

1094
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 2: what I had, and I don't I had a Hammond,

1095
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 2: but I don't think I tried to stick it in

1096
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 2: the van, you know, because I couldn't get it in

1097
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 2: and out myself. So I think that's about what it was.

1098
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 2: And I and I came out and uh and Larry.

1099
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 2: I visited with Larry and had insane experiences going.

1100
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 1: Whoa you get to LA? Where do you stay?

1101
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 2: Where did I stay? I don't remember where I stayed.

1102
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 2: I think I might have stayed in somebody's apartment. Yeah,

1103
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 2: I stayed in an apartment and I kind of don't

1104
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 2: remember that part. Oh wait, I remember something. Maybe I

1105
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 2: stayed with Hawk. Do you know Hawk?

1106
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 1: Wilensky, No I know who he is.

1107
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 2: I don't know, Okay, So Hawk, I go back with

1108
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 2: Hawk because Banger Flying Circus, which was his first band,

1109
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 2: was one of my favorite bands. So I met Hawk

1110
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 2: when I was ten years old, going to his concerts

1111
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 2: and you know, at a place called the Cellar in

1112
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:36,919
Speaker 2: Arlington Heights. And so I came out and that yet's right.

1113
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 2: And so aside from Larry, Hawk had lent let me

1114
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 2: get this right, Hawk had lent one of l De

1115
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 2: Carlo's guitars. He was the guitar player and Banger, which

1116
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 2: became Madua. It's a long story there, Chicago boys. He

1117
00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 2: had lent it to El because Al was going to

1118
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 2: audition for Frank zapA and we needed to go pick

1119
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 2: up the guitar. El's guitar at Zappa's rehearsals. So we

1120
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 2: went to the rehearsals and somebody asked Hawk if he

1121
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 2: was interested in auditioning for Frank, and he said, no,

1122
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 2: but Pat will. So so I did. And I was

1123
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 2: around for a couple of months. You know, I didn't

1124
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 2: I couldn't stay with it because my reading was no good.

1125
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 2: But I was like two months of doing rehearsals for

1126
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 2: the what was the Zodaaluur's period for Zappa, And after

1127
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 2: that there was nothing except selling my Clavenet to have

1128
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 2: enough gas money to drive back to Chicago.

1129
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 1: So how long were you in La m?

1130
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 2: Five months? Four months? I don't remember.

1131
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, you mentioned connecting with Larry Carlton there and

1132
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 1: I cut you off. What happened with Larry?

1133
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's just there's just a beautiful story because

1134
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 2: I went up to his house which was on Mohomes

1135
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:11,960
Speaker 2: at the time, and just to visit, and he had

1136
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:14,800
Speaker 2: we hung out a little bit and then he said, look,

1137
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 2: I have a con. I have a session today and

1138
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 2: a concert tonight. You just want to join me for them?

1139
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 2: And I said, of course, And so he said, I'm

1140
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 2: gonna take a shower, play the piano if you want.

1141
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 2: And so I sat at the piano and on the

1142
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 2: piano was a cassette player and charts and it was

1143
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 2: Fagan because Larry did the arrangements for Royal Scam right

1144
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:36,120
Speaker 2: and he was working on him at the time, So

1145
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 2: it was the charts for Royal Scam sitting on the

1146
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:41,400
Speaker 2: piano and there from there he threw a n amp

1147
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 2: in the back of his guitar in his car and

1148
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 2: a couple of guitars, and we drove down to an

1149
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:48,200
Speaker 2: M studios. I had no idea where we were going.

1150
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:51,960
Speaker 2: And we walked in to Studio B and it was

1151
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 2: his Eira, and it was Jony and Jocko and Henry

1152
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 2: Lewis Wow and Larry and I sat on the couchway.

1153
01:00:57,680 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 2: He did all his guitar overdubs on his ear right

1154
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 2: next right. So then we go have some dinner, and

1155
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 2: then after dinner he sit as a concert. I said, okay,

1156
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 2: let's go. It was Santa Monica, Civic Weather Report. Choko

1157
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 2: was coming out for heavy weather. It was that night, right,

1158
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 2: So that was kind of my l experience. You know,

1159
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 2: I was a little boy, really, I really was. But

1160
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:21,360
Speaker 2: it gave me a taste of something that I think.

1161
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 2: I thought, you know, this is pretty bad ass to

1162
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 2: be able to play on records like this and do

1163
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 2: this this stuff. And of course you know Tony Man,

1164
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 2: Hazira and Don Juan's Reckless Daughter and Mingus. Those are

1165
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 2: my three, you know.

1166
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 1: Hisira is one of my three. The other two no,

1167
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 1: But when you go back to Chicago with your tail

1168
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:47,880
Speaker 1: between your legs or how hard a decision.

1169
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:51,720
Speaker 2: Is that, Well, it was there was no there was

1170
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 2: no money, you know, there was no money. So I

1171
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 2: came back and got in another show man, this time

1172
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 2: with a drummer friend of mine, and we did it

1173
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:03,880
Speaker 2: with the intention of making enough money to start a band,

1174
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 2: and we started a band called Trillion, and Trillion got

1175
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 2: signed to Sony and we did two albums.

1176
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:18,439
Speaker 1: Wow, those are big steps. Who you know connected to CBS?

1177
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 1: Who was the business person who made that connection? That's

1178
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 1: such a you got signed.

1179
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 2: We were we were a Chicago club band and at

1180
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 2: that time we were kind of the Chicago club band,

1181
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,760
Speaker 2: and we were a progressive rock band, and we were

1182
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 2: packing the clubs doing these forty minute weird concept pieces

1183
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 2: and uh and you know, the their their, The interest

1184
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 2: came and a manager came and we did showcases and

1185
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 2: there was a little bit of a bidding war, even

1186
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 2: if I recall, and we ended up signing with Lenny

1187
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 2: Petzi at Epic Portrait right yeah, and made the first

1188
01:02:56,560 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 2: Trillion album at Cariboo Wow with Gary Lyons. And I

1189
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:03,200
Speaker 2: had been up to Caribou when I was a kid

1190
01:03:03,240 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 2: too because of Hawk, because Hawk was there, because Madua

1191
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 2: was one of Jimmy Gricio's bands and a friend of mine,

1192
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 2: and I drove out to visit Hawk and we stayed

1193
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:13,720
Speaker 2: up with Caribou.

1194
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: I was, you know, fourteen, Okay, just to be clear,

1195
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 1: If you're fourteen, how did you drive.

1196
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:23,440
Speaker 2: My friend Petro, he was seventeen or eighteen. You know,

1197
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 2: always older musicians, always hanging out with older musicians. Okay,

1198
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 2: until now there are no older musicians.

1199
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 1: You're in Trillia. This is the big leagues. Are you

1200
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 1: telling yourself? Man, I've made it?

1201
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 2: No, No, I have. I had the same problem then

1202
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 2: as I do now. If we were to start talking

1203
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 2: about records, I would tell you about the one I've written,

1204
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 2: not about the one I'm about to release. And it

1205
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 2: was my it was my nature. Then it's like, well

1206
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 2: that record's done. And you know, also it was we

1207
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:59,800
Speaker 2: were a prog band and the label wasn't going to

1208
01:03:59,880 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 2: have that. So whatever songs were the poppyist were the

1209
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:06,400
Speaker 2: ones we did, and the ones that had some elements

1210
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 2: of pop in them that they could take everything proggy

1211
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 2: out of it. That's what happened. And I sort of

1212
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 2: felt like, well, the record sounds good and we played

1213
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 2: well because we were a good band, but this isn't

1214
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 2: where I wanted to be. It really wasn't, you know.

1215
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:26,640
Speaker 2: So then we changed singers and made another record that

1216
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 2: just didn't sound good. It just wasn't even a good

1217
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 2: sounding record, and some of the prog elements got left.

1218
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:35,840
Speaker 2: But at that point it was just kind of it

1219
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 2: wasn't gonna work for me, you know. And obviously in

1220
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 2: this stuff there's agonizing moments. There are really brutal moments

1221
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:48,040
Speaker 2: in this stuff, because you put your life into this

1222
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:51,960
Speaker 2: stuff and you wanted to work. But I'm pretty quick

1223
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:55,919
Speaker 2: about feeling like if the music isn't what I wanted

1224
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 2: to be, I don't belong here.

1225
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 1: Wait, well, there are two eends ine there. You put

1226
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 1: your heart and soul into the music. You were mentioning

1227
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:07,720
Speaker 1: this isn't the right place for me. But the other

1228
01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:09,240
Speaker 1: side of it is you put your heart and soul

1229
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:12,760
Speaker 1: to the music and it doesn't break through commercially. That's got

1230
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:14,520
Speaker 1: to be disappointing too. Well.

1231
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know what I even expected,

1232
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 2: but I knew we were a good band, and I

1233
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 2: knew that if people could go to see King Crimson

1234
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:23,760
Speaker 2: in Philly, Auditorium theater. Maybe we could get there. I

1235
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 2: didn't you know, I didn't want to be on I

1236
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 2: didn't want to be the cow Sills. I wanted to

1237
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 2: be Channel giants.

1238
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:33,920
Speaker 1: Okay, so you make two records, you say this isn't

1239
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:35,840
Speaker 1: where I want to be at. Then what.

1240
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 2: Then hanging around Chicago and played started doing some jingles

1241
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:47,200
Speaker 2: to make money. Friend of mine got me into doing,

1242
01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 2: you know, playing on jingles, and I made the first

1243
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 2: kind of real money that I ever made and started

1244
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:57,360
Speaker 2: a little fusion band, a jazz fusion band, instrumental band

1245
01:05:58,680 --> 01:06:04,080
Speaker 2: with some great players. And we called it software. And ironically,

1246
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:06,600
Speaker 2: when the name came up, somebody, as we were trying

1247
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:09,240
Speaker 2: to think of a name, said hardware. As somebody said,

1248
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 2: what about just flip it and call it software? There

1249
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:13,640
Speaker 2: was no such thing as softway yet. And then some

1250
01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 2: years later someone said, you still own that name? Like

1251
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:21,680
Speaker 2: I don't think so. But anyway, that was that was fun.

1252
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 2: But it was you know, uh, I can't remember the

1253
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:28,240
Speaker 2: name of the label. It was Ross Trout's father, the

1254
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 2: guitar player Ross Trout. It was his father, and it

1255
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:33,400
Speaker 2: was like a it was for M C. A. But

1256
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:35,800
Speaker 2: it was a little jazz label, and we made this

1257
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 2: simple record in in uh a garage studio that was

1258
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 2: owned by Larry Millis, who was the bass player in

1259
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:46,760
Speaker 2: the Eyes of March, you know, up the street from Peterick,

1260
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:50,360
Speaker 2: you know, Chicago Boys and UH. And it was a

1261
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:53,840
Speaker 2: nice record. And then and then after a couple of

1262
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 2: years of jingles, UH, the weather killed me. And that's

1263
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:01,840
Speaker 2: that's how I ended up calling Hawk again, saying, Hawk,

1264
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:03,120
Speaker 2: I got to get out of here. And he said,

1265
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 2: I'm on the phone with one of the Jackson's about

1266
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 2: some tour. I'll call you back. And he called me back.

1267
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 2: He said, you want to audition for a tour and

1268
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:12,040
Speaker 2: it was the Victory Tour. And that's what got me

1269
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:12,360
Speaker 2: to LA.

1270
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:17,200
Speaker 1: So now, okay, just a couple of fill in moments, yep,

1271
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:21,920
Speaker 1: you have all these ups and downs ever, any middle

1272
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:24,880
Speaker 1: of the night moments like what am I doing? You know,

1273
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:28,919
Speaker 1: this isn't working? Or was it always? This isn't working today?

1274
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:30,160
Speaker 1: But I'm staying on the path.

1275
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:33,720
Speaker 2: Well, you know, in this stuff, there was a there

1276
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:36,320
Speaker 2: was another little moment that I that I've forgott until

1277
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:41,040
Speaker 2: you mentioned this, where I had in Larry Millis's garage.

1278
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:45,040
Speaker 2: I had somebody was working with Greg Almond in Larry

1279
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 2: Millers's garage, and I came down and played on some

1280
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 2: some record of Greg Almonds, some solo record he was making.

1281
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:54,000
Speaker 2: I don't even remember which one it was. And then

1282
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:58,280
Speaker 2: a couple of years later, Chuck Levelle was with the

1283
01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:01,760
Speaker 2: Stones and the Brothers needed a keyboard player, so I

1284
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:05,120
Speaker 2: went to Sarasota, Tallahassee, I can't remember which one of

1285
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:09,959
Speaker 2: these towns in Florida, Jacksonville. Yeah, it spent a few

1286
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:11,840
Speaker 2: a few months playing with the Almond brothers.

1287
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 1: Wait, wait, wait, yeah, Greg Alman had remembered.

1288
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:19,960
Speaker 2: Yeah he did. You know Greg?

1289
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:21,639
Speaker 1: I know him a little bit.

1290
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:24,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh he What a beautiful cat, and what a

1291
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:29,000
Speaker 2: great sense of humor, and what a great talent. But ultimately,

1292
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:31,640
Speaker 2: the most fun thing that came out of that was

1293
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:35,599
Speaker 2: at one point I was back in Chicago and that

1294
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:40,200
Speaker 2: didn't work out because I won't even go into the reasons.

1295
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 1: Now, ony, wait, give you one reason, or at least.

1296
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:51,000
Speaker 2: The one reason was Oh, I can't even say it.

1297
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:52,000
Speaker 2: I can't.

1298
01:08:52,360 --> 01:08:55,600
Speaker 1: Well, let me just ask you this. You're living this

1299
01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:59,479
Speaker 1: parapatetic lifestyle. Is there ever any romance in these things?

1300
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:01,320
Speaker 1: Or is it music. Music. Music.

1301
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:05,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's romance, but the music was I'd say,

1302
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:08,240
Speaker 2: you know, music is what got me out of bed

1303
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:08,719
Speaker 2: in the morning.

1304
01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:11,479
Speaker 1: So there wasn't an issue of making a career choice

1305
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:12,720
Speaker 1: based on romance.

1306
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 2: No, never, no.

1307
01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:20,639
Speaker 1: And was there ever an issue of drugs or alcohol. No? Okay,

1308
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:23,920
Speaker 1: So you're back at Chicago and these couple of things happen.

1309
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:27,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And then I get a call from Dickie's manager

1310
01:09:27,320 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 2: saying Dickie's playing at the Park West tonight and his

1311
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:34,120
Speaker 2: keyboard player got sick. Can you come play? And I said,

1312
01:09:34,120 --> 01:09:36,080
Speaker 2: what what it's the music? I said, it's a solo record.

1313
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:37,559
Speaker 2: I said, I don't know any of the songs. I

1314
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 2: don't know any songs of this, so we will be

1315
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 2: a couple Allman Brothers songs as well. And this was

1316
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:46,639
Speaker 2: a CP seventy electric Grand with a synthesizer on top

1317
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:48,679
Speaker 2: of it, and I was going to play the double

1318
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:52,080
Speaker 2: guitar lines on the synthesizer, and I thought, okay, this

1319
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:54,320
Speaker 2: could be fun little and it was just a little

1320
01:09:54,360 --> 01:09:56,760
Speaker 2: tour for you know, I don't remember how many dates

1321
01:09:56,760 --> 01:10:01,760
Speaker 2: through the Upper Midwest, and so I said, you know,

1322
01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:04,600
Speaker 2: it's the gigs tonight. You know, how do we do

1323
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:06,479
Speaker 2: this is a four piece band in the gigs tonight?

1324
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:08,840
Speaker 2: And he said, there'll be plenty of time. You know,

1325
01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:11,439
Speaker 2: they're flying in at four o'clock, they'll meet hit the place. Well,

1326
01:10:11,479 --> 01:10:14,400
Speaker 2: their flight got held up, and so what I got

1327
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:17,240
Speaker 2: was a set list with the first chord of every

1328
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 2: song and then on we go, and there was never

1329
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:22,840
Speaker 2: any more beyond that because I kind of knew the

1330
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:25,880
Speaker 2: Almen Brothers stuff a little bit, and so, you know,

1331
01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:27,720
Speaker 2: we did that for a while, but that was that

1332
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:29,840
Speaker 2: was one of the more fun things I remember doing

1333
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:33,320
Speaker 2: because it was just a four piece band hit it

1334
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:36,960
Speaker 2: really hard, you know, and really an opportunity to play

1335
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:41,400
Speaker 2: some great legendary stuff. I mean, I found a cassette

1336
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:43,640
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago that I've yet to be

1337
01:10:43,680 --> 01:10:47,000
Speaker 2: able to rEFInd, but you know, you can hear those

1338
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 2: those double solos and I'm playing the second part near

1339
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:53,280
Speaker 2: the low part on a synth in comping piano underneath,

1340
01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:55,680
Speaker 2: and I thought, that's that's pretty cool, you know, to

1341
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:58,479
Speaker 2: have done that with with with those guys, you know.

1342
01:10:59,320 --> 01:11:02,360
Speaker 2: So yeah, that was another little stop along the way.

1343
01:11:02,400 --> 01:11:06,240
Speaker 1: Okay, so Hawk says, you interested in working with the

1344
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:08,160
Speaker 1: Jackson's that.

1345
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:11,320
Speaker 2: Was it was auditioning adition.

1346
01:11:12,240 --> 01:11:15,439
Speaker 1: That was an interesting tour, but no matter what, Michael

1347
01:11:15,479 --> 01:11:17,360
Speaker 1: already had a success. He was going to work with

1348
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:22,760
Speaker 1: the Jacksons again. Right, this is top tier. How do

1349
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:25,160
Speaker 1: you get the gig and become the music direct?

1350
01:11:27,439 --> 01:11:30,160
Speaker 2: Audition? Cold audition?

1351
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:31,839
Speaker 1: Tell me about the audition.

1352
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 2: Okay, The audition was Leeds rehearsal in North Hollywood. And

1353
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:40,240
Speaker 2: I showed up and there's a d X seven synthesizer,

1354
01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:44,160
Speaker 2: Yamaha keyboard, and a drum set and the drummer was

1355
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:50,479
Speaker 2: Jonathan Moffatt, who I'd never met, and it was Marlon

1356
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:55,519
Speaker 2: and Tito and Jackie came and they said, you know,

1357
01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:57,719
Speaker 2: do you know any of the songs? And I said nope,

1358
01:11:57,760 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 2: not a one. And they said, what do you want

1359
01:11:59,880 --> 01:12:03,320
Speaker 2: to I said, well, just jam so Jonathan and I

1360
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:06,720
Speaker 2: just improvise and they talk about the DX seven and

1361
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:08,400
Speaker 2: they said, do you know anything about this the city?

1362
01:12:08,479 --> 01:12:11,840
Speaker 2: I do because I had worked on programming it for

1363
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:13,920
Speaker 2: Jingles and stuff, so I actually knew how to program

1364
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:16,240
Speaker 2: a DX seven, which is a little bit like knowing

1365
01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:17,840
Speaker 2: how to get to the moon in a paper bag.

1366
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:20,000
Speaker 2: It's an impossible thing to deal with but I knew

1367
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:24,240
Speaker 2: how So that was that, and I went back to

1368
01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:26,080
Speaker 2: Chicago and everybody went how to go? And I said,

1369
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:28,760
Speaker 2: it's not going to happen. A lot of chance. So

1370
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:30,599
Speaker 2: then a couple of weeks later they call and say,

1371
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:31,519
Speaker 2: we want you to come back.

1372
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:34,000
Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait, wait wait, are you flying on your

1373
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:35,160
Speaker 1: own dime or their dives?

1374
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:37,200
Speaker 2: Flying on my own dime? But I have jingle money.

1375
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:39,240
Speaker 2: Now I have jingle money, so you know we're not

1376
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:42,200
Speaker 2: doing bad. So they call me back. I go back

1377
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:47,679
Speaker 2: for the second audition, and it's the same keyboard, same

1378
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:50,639
Speaker 2: drum set, but now there's a guitar amp and it's

1379
01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:53,559
Speaker 2: David Williams, you know, a guitar and a guitar player.

1380
01:12:55,080 --> 01:12:57,400
Speaker 2: And it was the same thing, you know, except I

1381
01:12:57,439 --> 01:12:59,559
Speaker 2: think this time maybe Germaine was there, but I don't

1382
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:03,559
Speaker 2: really remember completely, and so we just jammed again. And

1383
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:05,080
Speaker 2: then I go home and everybody goes how it goes.

1384
01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:07,400
Speaker 2: I goes, it's not going to happen, and I have

1385
01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:11,880
Speaker 2: to add this that that time. Now they're auditioning a

1386
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:15,000
Speaker 2: lot of people, and I get there and there's people

1387
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:17,719
Speaker 2: waiting with their road crew to set up their rigs,

1388
01:13:18,479 --> 01:13:20,840
Speaker 2: and I'm listening through the door and I hear you know,

1389
01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:25,559
Speaker 2: click click click click bit, you know, the whole bass part,

1390
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:27,719
Speaker 2: all the horn sounds, and I'm like, I'm going home,

1391
01:13:28,040 --> 01:13:30,240
Speaker 2: you know, me tinkering out of DX seven Inc. Going

1392
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:33,800
Speaker 2: to make this happen. So I go back home. A

1393
01:13:33,880 --> 01:13:36,519
Speaker 2: couple weeks later, somebody calls says, you got the gig.

1394
01:13:37,280 --> 01:13:42,800
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, okay. So I go back and we

1395
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:45,320
Speaker 2: start working on it. We start, you know, rehearsals and

1396
01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:49,120
Speaker 2: whatever else. And it was fairly clear from the beginning

1397
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:51,040
Speaker 2: that there was a lot of stuff needed in terms

1398
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:54,880
Speaker 2: of the programming and the arranging and running the rehearsals,

1399
01:13:54,920 --> 01:13:57,320
Speaker 2: and there was nobody to do it. So I sort

1400
01:13:57,360 --> 01:14:02,559
Speaker 2: of became the musical director just because there was no

1401
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:07,479
Speaker 2: one else there to do that. So obviously there's a

1402
01:14:07,479 --> 01:14:10,479
Speaker 2: lot of experiences there, and there's enough stories there to fill,

1403
01:14:11,479 --> 01:14:14,120
Speaker 2: you know, a nice Scorsesey film. I mean, it's the

1404
01:14:14,160 --> 01:14:17,200
Speaker 2: craziest thing I've ever experienced in my life. Was at

1405
01:14:17,200 --> 01:14:19,719
Speaker 2: that up to that point was that tour. It was madness.

1406
01:14:20,320 --> 01:14:21,320
Speaker 2: But anyway, it was good fun.

1407
01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:25,800
Speaker 1: Okay, wait, it was an adventure. Needless to say, the

1408
01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:30,519
Speaker 1: tour financially for varying reasons did not work out. They

1409
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:35,000
Speaker 1: were playing big places. You had experiences that many people

1410
01:14:35,040 --> 01:14:39,040
Speaker 1: in life never have. But was it you've been on

1411
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:41,840
Speaker 1: the road since was it fun and good or was

1412
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:45,760
Speaker 1: it really like this is like the middle of you know, chaos.

1413
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:51,120
Speaker 2: Well, what I tell you, it's interesting because of the

1414
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:55,400
Speaker 2: size of the stage and there were two complete setups.

1415
01:14:56,320 --> 01:14:58,720
Speaker 2: It took so long to set it up and transport

1416
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:01,800
Speaker 2: it that we only played Friday and Saturday nights, and

1417
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:03,719
Speaker 2: we were off during the week and you could either

1418
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:06,080
Speaker 2: fly back t La or you could stay on the road.

1419
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:11,000
Speaker 2: Most of the time stayed on the road, and that

1420
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:14,560
Speaker 2: part was difficult because you were only playing two nights.

1421
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:19,040
Speaker 2: But honestly, when the band was very good and very

1422
01:15:19,080 --> 01:15:21,639
Speaker 2: tight and great players and certainly the best players I'd

1423
01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:27,599
Speaker 2: ever played with, And when Jonathan would count off Billy

1424
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:29,439
Speaker 2: Jean and start playing the beat, and I'd play the

1425
01:15:29,479 --> 01:15:31,439
Speaker 2: bassline and the right hand part because that was what

1426
01:15:31,479 --> 01:15:34,639
Speaker 2: I was doing, and I'd watch Michael dance that dance,

1427
01:15:35,400 --> 01:15:39,000
Speaker 2: it was like it was unreal to be part of that.

1428
01:15:39,080 --> 01:15:43,280
Speaker 2: And also I think the thing with Michael is when

1429
01:15:43,320 --> 01:15:45,720
Speaker 2: you actually got to experience what it was like to

1430
01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:47,880
Speaker 2: do rehearsals and do this and do that, and then

1431
01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:51,120
Speaker 2: show time and see just how powerful he was and

1432
01:15:51,160 --> 01:15:54,800
Speaker 2: how amazing and how brilliant. You know, that stuck with me,

1433
01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:58,320
Speaker 2: you know, because that was really something, so you know,

1434
01:15:58,760 --> 01:15:59,960
Speaker 2: it was a great experience.

1435
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:00,400
Speaker 1: It was.

1436
01:16:00,640 --> 01:16:05,400
Speaker 2: It was chaos and a lot of funny anecdotal moments

1437
01:16:05,439 --> 01:16:08,800
Speaker 2: and a lot of weird stuff. But you know, that

1438
01:16:08,920 --> 01:16:12,000
Speaker 2: was my first big tour, and then I did two

1439
01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:14,439
Speaker 2: other tours and that's all I've ever done for tours.

1440
01:16:21,680 --> 01:16:25,000
Speaker 1: Okay, wait, Victory tour ends at what's the next?

1441
01:16:26,320 --> 01:16:29,639
Speaker 2: Who's the first Madonna tour? Virgin two?

1442
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:30,559
Speaker 1: How do you get that gig?

1443
01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:35,679
Speaker 2: Her manager at the time called my managers and said,

1444
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:40,080
Speaker 2: Madonna wants Pat to do her tour because of the

1445
01:16:40,160 --> 01:16:40,760
Speaker 2: Victory tour.

1446
01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:45,040
Speaker 1: And it was just that simple. No one had ever

1447
01:16:45,080 --> 01:16:48,920
Speaker 1: met anybody. Had she seen the Victory Tour.

1448
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:53,200
Speaker 2: She must have or or at least, you know, knew

1449
01:16:53,280 --> 01:16:56,680
Speaker 2: enough about it to know that it was probably probably good.

1450
01:16:58,680 --> 01:17:01,400
Speaker 2: And my first reaction was, you mean the girl who

1451
01:17:01,479 --> 01:17:03,200
Speaker 2: rolls around on the floor in her underwear, And I said,

1452
01:17:03,240 --> 01:17:05,840
Speaker 2: I'm gonna pass. You know, I was hoping at this

1453
01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:08,320
Speaker 2: point to get into making records. You know in La,

1454
01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:13,720
Speaker 2: and then the idea was would you just meet with her?

1455
01:17:14,439 --> 01:17:17,400
Speaker 2: And I did, and she said, never done this. You're

1456
01:17:17,439 --> 01:17:20,280
Speaker 2: in charge, There'll be no pushback. Hire who you want.

1457
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:22,920
Speaker 2: And I went, okay, you know.

1458
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:27,160
Speaker 1: Oh okay. Just to be very clear, this is or

1459
01:17:27,240 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 1: before the like a virgin tour.

1460
01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:35,479
Speaker 2: This is the virgin tour. Okay, this is the virgin tour.

1461
01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:38,000
Speaker 2: This is her first tour. And this is before she

1462
01:17:38,040 --> 01:17:40,760
Speaker 2: and I had written a note.

1463
01:17:39,920 --> 01:17:42,599
Speaker 1: And the Beastie Boys are opening and it's a whole thing.

1464
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:45,519
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And every night we'd get back to our

1465
01:17:45,560 --> 01:17:47,200
Speaker 2: room and the shrimp and the champagne, he'd be gone

1466
01:17:47,200 --> 01:17:49,120
Speaker 2: and they'd be sleeping in the couch in our dressing room.

1467
01:17:49,280 --> 01:17:53,439
Speaker 2: I love those guys. This hysterical. Like every night they'd

1468
01:17:53,439 --> 01:17:55,760
Speaker 2: eat all our food and drink all our booze.

1469
01:17:57,040 --> 01:18:03,400
Speaker 1: Okay, she was she was the cats me out. I mean,

1470
01:18:04,040 --> 01:18:06,799
Speaker 1: so there were a lot of dates on that tour.

1471
01:18:07,360 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 1: Were you just in the band or did you have

1472
01:18:10,080 --> 01:18:14,120
Speaker 1: some sort of some potico talking about collaboration.

1473
01:18:15,160 --> 01:18:17,360
Speaker 2: Well, I was. I mean I was the musical director

1474
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:19,280
Speaker 2: for it, so I put it together. And then what

1475
01:18:19,439 --> 01:18:27,680
Speaker 2: happened is during during the tour, I think or I

1476
01:18:27,720 --> 01:18:29,360
Speaker 2: can't remember exactly what it was. I think it might

1477
01:18:29,400 --> 01:18:31,840
Speaker 2: have been after the tour, before we did Oh, it

1478
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:35,800
Speaker 2: was after the tour, before we did Live AID. I

1479
01:18:35,840 --> 01:18:37,720
Speaker 2: had a party at my house and I invited her

1480
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:41,320
Speaker 2: and my parents were there, you know, and all this stuff.

1481
01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:44,439
Speaker 2: And she came and I showed her the little studio

1482
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:48,480
Speaker 2: and I had this little track that I was recorded,

1483
01:18:48,880 --> 01:18:51,280
Speaker 2: and I played it for and she said, can I

1484
01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:53,000
Speaker 2: write to it? And I said okay, And she wrote

1485
01:18:53,040 --> 01:18:54,680
Speaker 2: the song that we did at Live Aid, which is

1486
01:18:54,720 --> 01:18:57,200
Speaker 2: called Love Mix the World Ground, and that became the

1487
01:18:57,200 --> 01:19:02,120
Speaker 2: first thing we wrote. And that's where the writing started.

1488
01:19:02,280 --> 01:19:05,519
Speaker 2: And then there's another page to that that got got

1489
01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:07,720
Speaker 2: us into making True Blue.

1490
01:19:07,960 --> 01:19:08,920
Speaker 1: What's the other page?

1491
01:19:10,640 --> 01:19:12,600
Speaker 2: The other page is I wanted to see if I

1492
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:15,400
Speaker 2: could get into scoring films because I like making up

1493
01:19:15,439 --> 01:19:17,280
Speaker 2: music and I thought me, I'd like to do this,

1494
01:19:17,360 --> 01:19:21,320
Speaker 2: and I always felt I should, and I did enough

1495
01:19:21,360 --> 01:19:26,680
Speaker 2: of it to know I shouldn't, but I had. There

1496
01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:30,560
Speaker 2: There was a movie that my managers got me affiliated

1497
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:33,680
Speaker 2: with because a friend of theirs was directing it. His

1498
01:19:33,760 --> 01:19:36,679
Speaker 2: name was Duncan Gibbons, and the movie was called Fire

1499
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:40,200
Speaker 2: with Fire, I think, and it was Virginia Madson was

1500
01:19:40,200 --> 01:19:43,240
Speaker 2: starring in it, and I met with him and I

1501
01:19:43,280 --> 01:19:45,920
Speaker 2: watched some I watched the movie, I think, the whole thing,

1502
01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:51,360
Speaker 2: and then he gave me VHS cassettes to write music

1503
01:19:51,800 --> 01:19:54,439
Speaker 2: for it, and I wrote, let me see if I

1504
01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:58,920
Speaker 2: can get this to play unless year what I wrote, No,

1505
01:19:58,960 --> 01:20:01,040
Speaker 2: it's not going to play as it Wait, maybe it is.

1506
01:20:03,760 --> 01:20:04,000
Speaker 1: This.

1507
01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:13,240
Speaker 2: So that was my movie theme, and I asked her

1508
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:15,200
Speaker 2: if she would write and the rest of the song,

1509
01:20:15,280 --> 01:20:17,000
Speaker 2: the rest of that song, which was live to Tell,

1510
01:20:17,680 --> 01:20:19,920
Speaker 2: and I asked her as a favor, she'd write the

1511
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:23,000
Speaker 2: lyrics for it, because then it would really help me

1512
01:20:23,080 --> 01:20:26,280
Speaker 2: get this movie. And she said yes. So she was

1513
01:20:26,320 --> 01:20:31,080
Speaker 2: on her way to the house and my manager called

1514
01:20:31,120 --> 01:20:33,840
Speaker 2: and said they've hired somebody else. So no cell phones.

1515
01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:35,439
Speaker 2: I can't call her and turn her around. So she

1516
01:20:35,479 --> 01:20:38,559
Speaker 2: gets to the house and I say, sorry you ways,

1517
01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:40,120
Speaker 2: you know, sorry to have you drive all this way,

1518
01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:42,559
Speaker 2: but it's not going to happen. She said, well, Shawn's

1519
01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:45,519
Speaker 2: making a movie. Let me hear it. So I play

1520
01:20:45,520 --> 01:20:50,080
Speaker 2: it for and she writes these lyrics and she sings

1521
01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:53,280
Speaker 2: this vocal and we record it and she takes a

1522
01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:57,880
Speaker 2: cassette and I had to go to Michael's house because

1523
01:20:57,920 --> 01:20:59,840
Speaker 2: I was going to help Michael get some of his

1524
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:02,559
Speaker 2: songs together for the Bad album. So I went to

1525
01:21:02,640 --> 01:21:07,240
Speaker 2: Michael's and it's Michael and Quincy, and Michael's singing to me,

1526
01:21:07,280 --> 01:21:09,280
Speaker 2: and I'm trying to note, going around trying to find

1527
01:21:09,280 --> 01:21:12,719
Speaker 2: some music, and somebody comes in and said, Sean Penn's

1528
01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:15,800
Speaker 2: on the phone. So I get on the phone and

1529
01:21:15,800 --> 01:21:17,479
Speaker 2: he says, you got to come here right now. I say, well,

1530
01:21:17,479 --> 01:21:20,120
Speaker 2: I can't leave right this minute, but I'll get out

1531
01:21:20,160 --> 01:21:22,960
Speaker 2: of here in a little while. So when I did,

1532
01:21:23,040 --> 01:21:26,200
Speaker 2: I went to the director's house, Jamie Foley. I think

1533
01:21:26,240 --> 01:21:28,679
Speaker 2: he was living in Bennett Canyon. I can't remember what canyon.

1534
01:21:29,400 --> 01:21:31,160
Speaker 2: And I walk in the door and Madonna's on the

1535
01:21:31,160 --> 01:21:35,160
Speaker 2: couch and Sean's there and Jamie's there, and Jamie said,

1536
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:36,479
Speaker 2: we love the song and we want to use it

1537
01:21:36,479 --> 01:21:38,360
Speaker 2: in the movie. And Madonna said, who's going to sing it?

1538
01:21:39,200 --> 01:21:40,600
Speaker 2: We all went you're going to sing it? She goes, no,

1539
01:21:40,680 --> 01:21:42,320
Speaker 2: it's not right for me. It's too low. It's this,

1540
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:47,160
Speaker 2: it's this, And then Jamie looked at me and said,

1541
01:21:47,200 --> 01:21:49,360
Speaker 2: and Madonna said, you can score my movie as well.

1542
01:21:49,640 --> 01:21:52,040
Speaker 2: I said, yeah, I can so, and that's this is

1543
01:21:52,160 --> 01:21:54,439
Speaker 2: I swear this is true. This was the same day.

1544
01:21:55,240 --> 01:21:57,880
Speaker 2: And here's another thing about it is that that version

1545
01:21:57,880 --> 01:21:59,960
Speaker 2: that we did of Live to Tell was the record.

1546
01:22:00,280 --> 01:22:02,479
Speaker 2: We just added to it. We never did it again.

1547
01:22:02,560 --> 01:22:07,000
Speaker 2: She never sang it again ever. That was it. So well,

1548
01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:09,040
Speaker 2: the only thing about it I like that.

1549
01:22:09,040 --> 01:22:14,880
Speaker 1: I love that. I just love it the way it

1550
01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:19,479
Speaker 1: goes down. I know. No, dude, it's funny to hear

1551
01:22:19,560 --> 01:22:24,760
Speaker 1: the story so accidental because I okay, so that goes

1552
01:22:24,800 --> 01:22:29,200
Speaker 1: into the album. Continue, how what's the next step with Madonna's.

1553
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:32,360
Speaker 2: Well, the at this point there wasn't really talk of

1554
01:22:32,439 --> 01:22:35,040
Speaker 2: an album. That was just this song for the movie.

1555
01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:41,800
Speaker 2: And then Quincy, this is also strange, Quincy asked. He said,

1556
01:22:41,840 --> 01:22:44,040
Speaker 2: I'd like to do something with kind of a little

1557
01:22:44,040 --> 01:22:47,000
Speaker 2: bit of a Shadet feel for Michael, and maybe you

1558
01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:49,280
Speaker 2: could write something and send it. So I said, okay,

1559
01:22:49,439 --> 01:23:02,519
Speaker 2: So I wrote and I sent it to Quincy. He said, no,

1560
01:23:02,680 --> 01:23:05,839
Speaker 2: Michael doesn't like it. So I showed it to Madonna

1561
01:23:05,840 --> 01:23:08,439
Speaker 2: and we sit there and write Liaisla Bonita. So now

1562
01:23:08,439 --> 01:23:13,679
Speaker 2: we've got two songs. And then another crazy thing happened

1563
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:18,200
Speaker 2: is my friend Hawk, who Hawk is in all of this.

1564
01:23:18,320 --> 01:23:22,800
Speaker 2: Somehow was playing on a Ted Nugent record at a

1565
01:23:22,800 --> 01:23:26,200
Speaker 2: little studio in Burbank and he got stung by a bee.

1566
01:23:26,439 --> 01:23:28,840
Speaker 2: So he called me and he said, I can't make

1567
01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:31,200
Speaker 2: the session because I'm all swelled up from this beasting.

1568
01:23:31,520 --> 01:23:33,679
Speaker 2: Can you go do the session for me? So I said, okay.

1569
01:23:34,560 --> 01:23:36,960
Speaker 2: So I went down and I played on whatever, I

1570
01:23:36,960 --> 01:23:40,439
Speaker 2: don't remember what it was, for Ted with in this

1571
01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:43,519
Speaker 2: little studio in Burbank with this engineer named Michael Verdict.

1572
01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:46,240
Speaker 2: And I walk in the room and I think, what's

1573
01:23:46,479 --> 01:23:50,040
Speaker 2: where's the sound coming from? It was just unbelievable sounding, right,

1574
01:23:51,120 --> 01:23:56,400
Speaker 2: So that's done. Now, that's gone. And then Madonna said

1575
01:23:56,400 --> 01:23:59,200
Speaker 2: maybe we could record these songs somewhere and I said, well,

1576
01:23:59,240 --> 01:24:03,080
Speaker 2: I know where, and it just we got in there

1577
01:24:03,080 --> 01:24:05,960
Speaker 2: and it just turned into writing another song and writing

1578
01:24:06,000 --> 01:24:08,800
Speaker 2: another song and writing another song, and pretty soon we

1579
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:14,679
Speaker 2: were done, and it was true blue and a little

1580
01:24:14,720 --> 01:24:18,840
Speaker 2: tiny shithole in Burbank, and you know one of the

1581
01:24:18,880 --> 01:24:21,360
Speaker 2: greatest sets of yours ever, which is Michael Verdict, And

1582
01:24:22,280 --> 01:24:26,120
Speaker 2: it just happened that way. And the songs were written

1583
01:24:26,200 --> 01:24:31,960
Speaker 2: very quickly, like always, and recorded just as quick and.

1584
01:24:33,640 --> 01:24:37,959
Speaker 1: Okay, what headspace are you at this point. You've been playing,

1585
01:24:38,080 --> 01:24:41,080
Speaker 1: you're doing jingles. Now you're out with Michael Jackson and

1586
01:24:41,120 --> 01:24:45,400
Speaker 1: the Jacksons, you're out with Madonna, you're with Q. You

1587
01:24:45,439 --> 01:24:47,240
Speaker 1: feel like a part of this or you feel like

1588
01:24:47,240 --> 01:24:48,000
Speaker 1: an impostor.

1589
01:24:50,360 --> 01:24:52,200
Speaker 2: No, I don't think I felt like an impostor. I

1590
01:24:52,200 --> 01:24:54,679
Speaker 2: mean the other part of it is in those days,

1591
01:24:55,360 --> 01:24:59,360
Speaker 2: part of this was Yamaha, who sponsored the Victory Tour.

1592
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:03,160
Speaker 2: A man named Doug Buttleman, who's a deer man, was

1593
01:25:03,640 --> 01:25:07,479
Speaker 2: deeply supportive of me in those days. Also then got

1594
01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:11,200
Speaker 2: Yamaha to supply the Virgin Tour, and the other group

1595
01:25:11,240 --> 01:25:13,439
Speaker 2: of people that were being supported by Yamaha were the

1596
01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:19,000
Speaker 2: Toto guys. So through all the stuff that happens, the

1597
01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:22,519
Speaker 2: network that was kind of the network, you know. I

1598
01:25:22,520 --> 01:25:25,280
Speaker 2: got invited to a couple of parties and was later

1599
01:25:25,360 --> 01:25:27,320
Speaker 2: told stories where someone when who was this kid, like,

1600
01:25:27,360 --> 01:25:29,320
Speaker 2: what was this kid doing it? You know, and it

1601
01:25:29,400 --> 01:25:31,479
Speaker 2: was Jeff. Jeff said no, he's all right. Jeff Pica

1602
01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:33,800
Speaker 2: said no, he's all right, and it was he was.

1603
01:25:33,880 --> 01:25:36,559
Speaker 2: Jeff was kind of in those days certainly kind of

1604
01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:39,880
Speaker 2: the godfather of the session scene. And I think, you know,

1605
01:25:40,120 --> 01:25:44,400
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, Jeff felt like I could hang and

1606
01:25:44,479 --> 01:25:45,920
Speaker 2: I think that was a big part of it.

1607
01:25:46,479 --> 01:25:47,519
Speaker 1: How'd you know Butterman?

1608
01:25:48,920 --> 01:25:53,400
Speaker 2: Buttleman was the Jackson Tour, the Victory Tour because Yamaha

1609
01:25:53,760 --> 01:25:57,120
Speaker 2: supported the Victory Tour and it was all d X seven's.

1610
01:25:57,120 --> 01:25:59,240
Speaker 2: There was twenty seven ors, I mean DX seven's on

1611
01:25:59,280 --> 01:26:03,840
Speaker 2: stage and Grandam and so you know that made me

1612
01:26:04,000 --> 01:26:06,519
Speaker 2: I'm hardest and a lot of those sounds ended up,

1613
01:26:07,080 --> 01:26:09,519
Speaker 2: you know, all the DX sevens from then on. They

1614
01:26:09,560 --> 01:26:12,080
Speaker 2: were just part of the patches. But like the horn

1615
01:26:12,160 --> 01:26:14,400
Speaker 2: sounds and bass sounds and some of that stuff.

1616
01:26:14,240 --> 01:26:18,599
Speaker 1: I don't know that part of his career, but that's interesting, Okay, yea.

1617
01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:23,559
Speaker 1: What is Madonna's attitude when you're doing True Blue? Is

1618
01:26:23,600 --> 01:26:26,519
Speaker 1: it like I'm on top of the world. I can

1619
01:26:26,600 --> 01:26:29,960
Speaker 1: do no wrong, or like, you know, holy fuck, we

1620
01:26:30,040 --> 01:26:32,400
Speaker 1: better get this right, or I'm just doing this today.

1621
01:26:32,400 --> 01:26:33,920
Speaker 1: I could be doing something else tomorrow.

1622
01:26:35,840 --> 01:26:38,120
Speaker 2: It's good. It's good. It's good to think about. I

1623
01:26:38,120 --> 01:26:42,760
Speaker 2: think the the one thing amongst many things that I

1624
01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:45,360
Speaker 2: would say about Madonna and her work, ethic and her

1625
01:26:45,400 --> 01:26:50,640
Speaker 2: abilities is there was never a second guess, never was it.

1626
01:26:50,680 --> 01:26:52,200
Speaker 2: Like I don't know about this. I don't know about this.

1627
01:26:52,280 --> 01:26:54,800
Speaker 2: It either was or it wasn't, and we were just

1628
01:26:54,880 --> 01:26:58,360
Speaker 2: moving forward. And I could say that with a clear conscience.

1629
01:26:58,400 --> 01:27:01,640
Speaker 2: It was never any know nothing about I don't know

1630
01:27:01,680 --> 01:27:04,360
Speaker 2: about this. I don't know about this. If we were

1631
01:27:04,400 --> 01:27:06,640
Speaker 2: doing it, we were doing it, and it was the

1632
01:27:06,680 --> 01:27:11,400
Speaker 2: same for all the work we did. It was just done,

1633
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:11,800
Speaker 2: you know.

1634
01:27:12,040 --> 01:27:17,439
Speaker 1: Okay, so the record is finished, the record comes out.

1635
01:27:17,560 --> 01:27:19,960
Speaker 1: What is your experience of the record coming out?

1636
01:27:24,040 --> 01:27:26,320
Speaker 2: Remember what I said earlier. It's like my experience was

1637
01:27:26,360 --> 01:27:29,599
Speaker 2: way to hear the next one. That's how I felt

1638
01:27:29,640 --> 01:27:31,600
Speaker 2: about it. Oh okay. The other thing that happened is

1639
01:27:31,640 --> 01:27:34,400
Speaker 2: I had done a close range so I had this

1640
01:27:34,520 --> 01:27:38,960
Speaker 2: movie score that I had done from the song, and

1641
01:27:39,040 --> 01:27:40,800
Speaker 2: I think there was some there was a little bit

1642
01:27:40,800 --> 01:27:42,280
Speaker 2: of fun in that. There was a little bit of

1643
01:27:42,280 --> 01:27:47,320
Speaker 2: fun that there was a movie with this theme. But

1644
01:27:47,600 --> 01:27:51,160
Speaker 2: you know, honestly, really it's really the truth. I'm just

1645
01:27:51,200 --> 01:27:54,040
Speaker 2: getting up in the morning and writing music, and I

1646
01:27:54,040 --> 01:27:55,640
Speaker 2: always feel like it's going to be better than the

1647
01:27:55,720 --> 01:27:58,280
Speaker 2: last thing I wrote. Oh Okay, it's terrible, isn't it.

1648
01:27:58,280 --> 01:27:58,920
Speaker 2: It's terrible.

1649
01:27:59,200 --> 01:28:01,920
Speaker 1: You said you did big tours, so you went out

1650
01:28:01,960 --> 01:28:04,719
Speaker 1: on true Blue.

1651
01:28:05,080 --> 01:28:09,040
Speaker 2: Yes, I was musical director for for the what was

1652
01:28:09,040 --> 01:28:12,320
Speaker 2: called Who's That Girl to her right, which was True

1653
01:28:12,320 --> 01:28:13,479
Speaker 2: Blue and Who's That Girl?

1654
01:28:13,840 --> 01:28:21,200
Speaker 1: Okay, the next album. You know, my favorite song on

1655
01:28:21,240 --> 01:28:23,679
Speaker 1: the next album is Cherish. Can you tell me anything

1656
01:28:23,720 --> 01:28:25,600
Speaker 1: about Cherish?

1657
01:28:26,040 --> 01:28:28,040
Speaker 2: Yes, that she didn't like it, that's the only one.

1658
01:28:28,040 --> 01:28:30,360
Speaker 2: She didn't like it. But we did it. We did it,

1659
01:28:30,439 --> 01:28:32,920
Speaker 2: and she and she she did. She went along with it.

1660
01:28:32,960 --> 01:28:36,639
Speaker 2: But you know, for some of the promo and stuff

1661
01:28:36,680 --> 01:28:38,639
Speaker 2: I'm doing now, I've been learning some of these songs

1662
01:28:38,640 --> 01:28:40,200
Speaker 2: again just so I can play them and sing them

1663
01:28:40,200 --> 01:28:43,280
Speaker 2: and kind of get through them. And Cherish is Cherish

1664
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:47,280
Speaker 2: is deep. Cherish is like it's deep harmonically, and it

1665
01:28:47,320 --> 01:28:49,240
Speaker 2: was a shuffle and it was all these things that

1666
01:28:49,280 --> 01:28:52,960
Speaker 2: were I think me sneaking shit, you know, in there.

1667
01:28:55,280 --> 01:28:57,360
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think Cherish is a monster. And Cherish

1668
01:28:57,439 --> 01:29:00,960
Speaker 2: was done. The way we cut Cherish was the bass part.

1669
01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:04,080
Speaker 2: I put the piano part down and then the bass

1670
01:29:04,120 --> 01:29:06,519
Speaker 2: part and the guitar part and the drums, which were myself,

1671
01:29:06,600 --> 01:29:09,880
Speaker 2: David Williams, and Jeff Karr. We played live, so we

1672
01:29:09,920 --> 01:29:13,040
Speaker 2: did the rhythm section to that degree live And when

1673
01:29:13,080 --> 01:29:14,760
Speaker 2: I listened to that, I think It's just some of

1674
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:17,679
Speaker 2: the best playing I've ever done. And I'm just playing bass.

1675
01:29:17,720 --> 01:29:19,720
Speaker 2: But it was like what a track man. And to

1676
01:29:19,800 --> 01:29:21,559
Speaker 2: sit in the room with those two guys, I mean

1677
01:29:22,200 --> 01:29:24,120
Speaker 2: there was more rhythm between those two guys than kind

1678
01:29:24,120 --> 01:29:27,000
Speaker 2: of the rest of the world put together, you know.

1679
01:29:27,479 --> 01:29:28,639
Speaker 2: So it is a real joy.

1680
01:29:29,240 --> 01:29:31,479
Speaker 1: Okay, the previous album was a little bit of a lark,

1681
01:29:31,960 --> 01:29:34,240
Speaker 1: you know, it started a different thing. Now when it

1682
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:38,040
Speaker 1: comes to make another record, the like a prayer record, Yeah,

1683
01:29:38,680 --> 01:29:41,040
Speaker 1: is it more planned out? Does she call you and say, hey,

1684
01:29:41,040 --> 01:29:43,320
Speaker 1: we're gonna write, We're gonna do this. How do you

1685
01:29:43,360 --> 01:29:44,400
Speaker 1: write the songs for that?

1686
01:29:47,000 --> 01:29:50,080
Speaker 2: At that point, I had the studio, the True Bil

1687
01:29:50,400 --> 01:29:52,360
Speaker 2: True Blue Bilt. So I had owned studio which was

1688
01:29:52,400 --> 01:29:58,240
Speaker 2: Johnny Eumer Recording down on Hollywood Way and in Burbank

1689
01:29:58,920 --> 01:30:02,320
Speaker 2: and very set up. My stuff was very set up,

1690
01:30:02,400 --> 01:30:06,479
Speaker 2: and so I I had an MPC sequencer, which was

1691
01:30:06,479 --> 01:30:10,639
Speaker 2: the first Akai sequencer, and a bunch of synthesizers. And

1692
01:30:11,000 --> 01:30:13,160
Speaker 2: I would go down there very early in the morning

1693
01:30:13,479 --> 01:30:15,280
Speaker 2: because I had a little gym in there, and I

1694
01:30:15,360 --> 01:30:17,799
Speaker 2: was at that point taking way better care of myself

1695
01:30:17,800 --> 01:30:19,760
Speaker 2: than I am now. And I would go in and

1696
01:30:19,760 --> 01:30:23,360
Speaker 2: meet with a trainer and work out, and then at

1697
01:30:23,400 --> 01:30:26,840
Speaker 2: about nine I'd go into the studio and write, and

1698
01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:29,519
Speaker 2: I'd write from nine till eleven when she would show

1699
01:30:29,600 --> 01:30:31,519
Speaker 2: up and I would show her what I'd written and

1700
01:30:31,560 --> 01:30:33,479
Speaker 2: she would write the lyrics and sing it. And we

1701
01:30:33,520 --> 01:30:34,960
Speaker 2: did it the next day and the next day and

1702
01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:37,240
Speaker 2: the next day, and in two weeks we'd written like

1703
01:30:37,280 --> 01:30:39,040
Speaker 2: a prayer the whole album.

1704
01:30:39,360 --> 01:30:44,040
Speaker 1: Okay, was it like Elton? Once she committed to the melody,

1705
01:30:44,120 --> 01:30:46,400
Speaker 1: that was it. There was no second guessing.

1706
01:30:47,200 --> 01:30:50,519
Speaker 2: No second guessing. I mean, I'll tell you something that

1707
01:30:50,520 --> 01:30:53,040
Speaker 2: most people won't really believe, but I swear it's true

1708
01:30:54,160 --> 01:30:58,120
Speaker 2: every one of those songs, everyone except oh Father, because

1709
01:30:58,120 --> 01:31:00,920
Speaker 2: we did it a different way when she wrote it

1710
01:31:01,080 --> 01:31:03,519
Speaker 2: that morning, when she wrote those lyrics and I had

1711
01:31:03,520 --> 01:31:05,479
Speaker 2: written that music, and she went in and sang it.

1712
01:31:05,720 --> 01:31:09,240
Speaker 2: She never sang them again, just like Live to Tell

1713
01:31:09,320 --> 01:31:11,439
Speaker 2: It's the only time she sang it. Those were her

1714
01:31:11,479 --> 01:31:13,200
Speaker 2: lead vocals, and they were done.

1715
01:31:14,439 --> 01:31:17,080
Speaker 1: Well. How many puncheons in that type of stuff?

1716
01:31:17,720 --> 01:31:22,400
Speaker 2: Uh huh uh huh No sing it twice. That's it.

1717
01:31:22,960 --> 01:31:26,720
Speaker 2: I'm telling you. So people could say whatever they want. Man,

1718
01:31:26,960 --> 01:31:29,639
Speaker 2: you know, this chick could really nail it. She really

1719
01:31:29,680 --> 01:31:30,880
Speaker 2: could nail it, you know.

1720
01:31:38,880 --> 01:31:43,080
Speaker 1: Okay, needless to say, there's a lot of money being generated.

1721
01:31:44,439 --> 01:31:48,280
Speaker 1: Who's making your deals? And are they giving you like

1722
01:31:48,360 --> 01:31:50,720
Speaker 1: are they letting you have half the publishing or do

1723
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:52,680
Speaker 1: they just want to give you the writer's share? I mean,

1724
01:31:53,120 --> 01:31:55,840
Speaker 1: who's looking after you? And how fair is all this?

1725
01:31:57,640 --> 01:32:01,439
Speaker 2: Mark Hartley and Larry Fitzgerald were my manager and nobody

1726
01:32:01,520 --> 01:32:04,439
Speaker 2: took anything. I got it. I got everything, you know, like,

1727
01:32:04,880 --> 01:32:07,559
Speaker 2: no one took any publishing, no one, no, there was

1728
01:32:07,600 --> 01:32:09,320
Speaker 2: no there was not ever even any talk of any

1729
01:32:09,320 --> 01:32:14,600
Speaker 2: of that because I think the the value of the

1730
01:32:14,640 --> 01:32:18,080
Speaker 2: cap collaboration proved itself on True Blue, you know, it

1731
01:32:18,120 --> 01:32:18,599
Speaker 2: really did.

1732
01:32:18,800 --> 01:32:22,320
Speaker 1: And then in terms of production usually it's four, it

1733
01:32:22,320 --> 01:32:24,519
Speaker 1: could be three, it could be five. Did you get

1734
01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:26,959
Speaker 1: half of the production money credit to Yeah?

1735
01:32:27,040 --> 01:32:29,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, you know there was there was There was

1736
01:32:30,000 --> 01:32:32,519
Speaker 2: like four points and I think I got two and

1737
01:32:32,520 --> 01:32:32,880
Speaker 2: a half.

1738
01:32:33,080 --> 01:32:37,000
Speaker 1: Wow. You know, So the money comes in, what do

1739
01:32:37,080 --> 01:32:38,040
Speaker 1: you do with the money?

1740
01:32:40,280 --> 01:32:40,800
Speaker 2: Buy shit?

1741
01:32:41,160 --> 01:32:43,679
Speaker 1: Bob? You buy shit? What shit? Did you buy?

1742
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:47,320
Speaker 2: Frivolution stuff? No studio stuff? I mean I bought a

1743
01:32:47,320 --> 01:32:50,000
Speaker 2: sports car and I you know, I bought a sports car.

1744
01:32:50,800 --> 01:32:54,599
Speaker 2: It wasn't my thing, you know, still isn't okay.

1745
01:32:54,760 --> 01:32:56,800
Speaker 1: So that's a lot of money. Where did you spend

1746
01:32:56,840 --> 01:32:58,800
Speaker 1: the money? Do you invest? You buy real estate? What'd

1747
01:32:58,800 --> 01:32:59,320
Speaker 1: you do with it?

1748
01:33:00,400 --> 01:33:03,080
Speaker 2: Well, there was business, there was business managers at the time,

1749
01:33:03,240 --> 01:33:08,720
Speaker 2: and you know, it just it just most of it

1750
01:33:08,840 --> 01:33:10,400
Speaker 2: just got saved. I guess, you know.

1751
01:33:10,800 --> 01:33:13,760
Speaker 1: Okay, So the like of prayer is done. Does she

1752
01:33:13,880 --> 01:33:15,559
Speaker 1: want you to go back on the road? And you

1753
01:33:15,600 --> 01:33:16,000
Speaker 1: say no.

1754
01:33:18,000 --> 01:33:24,640
Speaker 2: Exactly, and and so what happened was I, uh mo,

1755
01:33:24,840 --> 01:33:28,880
Speaker 2: Austin called me and said, you earned Warner Brothers like

1756
01:33:28,880 --> 01:33:30,800
Speaker 2: a half a billion dollars in the last year. Would

1757
01:33:30,800 --> 01:33:34,200
Speaker 2: you would you like anything? You know, he said, like,

1758
01:33:34,200 --> 01:33:36,560
Speaker 2: do you want an office in the building? Do you want?

1759
01:33:36,960 --> 01:33:39,800
Speaker 2: I said, I'd like to make my own record, which

1760
01:33:39,840 --> 01:33:45,759
Speaker 2: was Toy Matinee. And so I started writing that music

1761
01:33:45,800 --> 01:33:49,000
Speaker 2: and putting that together for myself. And then she wanted

1762
01:33:49,040 --> 01:33:55,000
Speaker 2: to do that tour and I said I wouldn't. She

1763
01:33:55,000 --> 01:33:57,320
Speaker 2: asked me if I would help her audition the musicians.

1764
01:33:57,320 --> 01:33:59,439
Speaker 2: So I did so. When I was doing the Toy

1765
01:33:59,439 --> 01:34:02,160
Speaker 2: Mattanee Wreck, I was kind of going in the mornings

1766
01:34:02,680 --> 01:34:04,960
Speaker 2: or afternoons or whatever it was. I don't remember it

1767
01:34:05,040 --> 01:34:07,760
Speaker 2: wasn't long. It was a couple of weeks, just to

1768
01:34:07,800 --> 01:34:11,600
Speaker 2: help her with auditions, and you know that was that

1769
01:34:11,720 --> 01:34:12,000
Speaker 2: was that?

1770
01:34:12,560 --> 01:34:15,760
Speaker 1: Okay, the fact that you did not go on the

1771
01:34:15,840 --> 01:34:19,320
Speaker 1: road with her, did that affect your relationship with her

1772
01:34:19,800 --> 01:34:21,479
Speaker 1: creatively in working with her?

1773
01:34:23,200 --> 01:34:25,639
Speaker 2: Well, I think you know after and I don't really

1774
01:34:25,720 --> 01:34:29,840
Speaker 2: remember the chronology, but the other record that we did

1775
01:34:29,840 --> 01:34:33,040
Speaker 2: around that time was Breathless was I'm Breathless for the

1776
01:34:33,120 --> 01:34:38,000
Speaker 2: Dick Tracy movie. And that was a record where they said,

1777
01:34:38,720 --> 01:34:40,840
Speaker 2: you know, Sondheim's written three songs and we want a

1778
01:34:40,880 --> 01:34:44,080
Speaker 2: whole album, and we got three weeks. So we basically

1779
01:34:44,120 --> 01:34:46,439
Speaker 2: wrote all those songs and recorded them all with big

1780
01:34:46,439 --> 01:34:52,160
Speaker 2: bands and everything else in just a few weeks. And

1781
01:34:52,200 --> 01:34:57,160
Speaker 2: then after that, there was I scored a movie called

1782
01:34:57,160 --> 01:35:01,360
Speaker 2: with Honors and Richard Page, and I started a song

1783
01:35:01,400 --> 01:35:06,400
Speaker 2: called I Remember, I'll Remember, and I think Madonna came

1784
01:35:06,439 --> 01:35:10,600
Speaker 2: in and finished it up and sang it, which was

1785
01:35:10,680 --> 01:35:12,640
Speaker 2: just another thing that I just asked her, Oh, I

1786
01:35:12,680 --> 01:35:16,120
Speaker 2: know why because the director was a friend of hers.

1787
01:35:16,840 --> 01:35:18,880
Speaker 2: The guy who directed with Honors was a friend of her,

1788
01:35:18,960 --> 01:35:21,360
Speaker 2: So that's why she did it. And you know that

1789
01:35:21,360 --> 01:35:23,040
Speaker 2: that was one of those another one of those things.

1790
01:35:23,040 --> 01:35:25,599
Speaker 2: It was done in an afternoon and was a number

1791
01:35:25,640 --> 01:35:29,960
Speaker 2: one record, and then after that we didn't work again

1792
01:35:30,040 --> 01:35:31,360
Speaker 2: until real light.

1793
01:35:32,200 --> 01:35:36,080
Speaker 1: Okay, let's pause that. Now we're on Toy Bat. They

1794
01:35:36,320 --> 01:35:38,720
Speaker 1: good experience, bad experience? What was it?

1795
01:35:40,400 --> 01:35:42,879
Speaker 2: Well, it was it was. It was a great experience.

1796
01:35:42,920 --> 01:35:45,400
Speaker 2: You know, I got I got to pick my musicians

1797
01:35:45,680 --> 01:35:50,800
Speaker 2: and make the record I wanted to make. You know,

1798
01:35:50,920 --> 01:35:54,720
Speaker 2: no one's going to say a word, and truthfully, I

1799
01:35:54,840 --> 01:35:57,400
Speaker 2: leave this out of this, but in all of this work,

1800
01:35:57,439 --> 01:35:59,439
Speaker 2: there was nobody ever saying a word. There was never

1801
01:35:59,479 --> 01:36:02,000
Speaker 2: a record company coming in saying nothing. No one ever

1802
01:36:02,000 --> 01:36:05,880
Speaker 2: said a word ever, not one occasion. There was fear,

1803
01:36:06,479 --> 01:36:08,559
Speaker 2: you know, when we wanted when she wanted to release

1804
01:36:08,640 --> 01:36:10,679
Speaker 2: Live to tell Us, the first single from True Blue,

1805
01:36:10,720 --> 01:36:12,800
Speaker 2: there was fear, and the same when she wanted to

1806
01:36:12,800 --> 01:36:15,519
Speaker 2: reach like a prayer, because it stopped and it started,

1807
01:36:15,560 --> 01:36:18,400
Speaker 2: and it was such a strange piece of work, you know,

1808
01:36:18,439 --> 01:36:20,799
Speaker 2: as the first single, everybody was a little bit worried,

1809
01:36:20,840 --> 01:36:23,080
Speaker 2: but they weren't didn't have to worry for that long,

1810
01:36:25,640 --> 01:36:29,000
Speaker 2: you know, so there was never any second guessing about

1811
01:36:29,000 --> 01:36:29,400
Speaker 2: any of it.

1812
01:36:30,479 --> 01:36:32,120
Speaker 1: Well, how long did it take you to make the

1813
01:36:32,160 --> 01:36:34,880
Speaker 1: toy mattin a record and when you delivered it, what

1814
01:36:34,920 --> 01:36:35,479
Speaker 1: did they say?

1815
01:36:38,040 --> 01:36:40,559
Speaker 2: I think, you know, in those days, records took three months,

1816
01:36:40,760 --> 01:36:42,320
Speaker 2: you know, and it was one of those things where

1817
01:36:42,360 --> 01:36:44,000
Speaker 2: it was a little there was a little bit of

1818
01:36:44,000 --> 01:36:47,600
Speaker 2: a for me what I always called just a Midwestern

1819
01:36:47,640 --> 01:36:51,280
Speaker 2: work ethic, you know, because you had a budget and

1820
01:36:51,320 --> 01:36:54,120
Speaker 2: you had a delivery date, so you knew what you're

1821
01:36:54,160 --> 01:36:56,160
Speaker 2: you knew what you were where you were shooting, you know,

1822
01:36:56,720 --> 01:37:02,120
Speaker 2: unlike this record I just made, which stuck forerever so,

1823
01:37:02,240 --> 01:37:04,639
Speaker 2: but you knew. And I'm pretty sure if I were

1824
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:06,360
Speaker 2: to go back and look, and I have a bunch

1825
01:37:06,400 --> 01:37:09,040
Speaker 2: of dats here with you know, these old things, you know,

1826
01:37:09,360 --> 01:37:11,000
Speaker 2: you know these we're not gonna no one else can

1827
01:37:11,040 --> 01:37:14,240
Speaker 2: see them, but these little digital audio tapes, right, and

1828
01:37:14,280 --> 01:37:16,599
Speaker 2: that they were They were what we were, you know,

1829
01:37:16,760 --> 01:37:19,439
Speaker 2: keeping rough mixes on. And if I go back and

1830
01:37:19,479 --> 01:37:21,559
Speaker 2: look at dates, you can kind of see when these

1831
01:37:21,600 --> 01:37:24,400
Speaker 2: things happened. And there was probably three months, maybe four,

1832
01:37:26,280 --> 01:37:31,439
Speaker 2: and then and then after that, I didn't plan on

1833
01:37:31,479 --> 01:37:35,040
Speaker 2: touring in or doing anything like that. I went to

1834
01:37:35,479 --> 01:37:37,879
Speaker 2: I went to do Amuse to Death with Roger Waters,

1835
01:37:38,479 --> 01:37:40,720
Speaker 2: and the singer put his own band together and went

1836
01:37:40,760 --> 01:37:43,040
Speaker 2: out and called the toy Mattine even though it kind

1837
01:37:43,040 --> 01:37:46,160
Speaker 2: of really wasn't, and bless his heart, I'm glad he

1838
01:37:46,240 --> 01:37:48,880
Speaker 2: promoted it, but that wasn't the idea.

1839
01:37:50,439 --> 01:37:54,360
Speaker 1: Okay, do you feel that Warner Brothers gave the record

1840
01:37:54,439 --> 01:37:55,760
Speaker 1: a good enough shot?

1841
01:37:58,880 --> 01:38:00,960
Speaker 2: I'll say something really weird. It didn't matter to me.

1842
01:38:02,160 --> 01:38:05,160
Speaker 2: I just wanted to make the record. I really just

1843
01:38:05,200 --> 01:38:08,080
Speaker 2: wanted to make the record. I don't think it got

1844
01:38:08,080 --> 01:38:09,640
Speaker 2: that good of a shot. And I think part of

1845
01:38:09,640 --> 01:38:14,680
Speaker 2: that is because the entity that was my idea of

1846
01:38:14,720 --> 01:38:18,479
Speaker 2: having a band, when it got to the actual like Okay,

1847
01:38:18,479 --> 01:38:20,040
Speaker 2: now we're going to have to do a contract and

1848
01:38:20,080 --> 01:38:24,960
Speaker 2: be a band, people didn't want to do that. They

1849
01:38:25,360 --> 01:38:28,160
Speaker 2: didn't want to commit to it. So the band ended

1850
01:38:28,240 --> 01:38:30,600
Speaker 2: up being me and Kevin, and that really wasn't what

1851
01:38:30,680 --> 01:38:36,400
Speaker 2: the band was. And so the idea of this being

1852
01:38:36,439 --> 01:38:38,000
Speaker 2: what I do for a year and now or two

1853
01:38:38,080 --> 01:38:41,000
Speaker 2: years or however long it's going to be, it didn't

1854
01:38:41,040 --> 01:38:42,920
Speaker 2: have an appeal to me. I was kind of like, well,

1855
01:38:42,960 --> 01:38:45,400
Speaker 2: I'm just going to go back in the studio. And

1856
01:38:45,439 --> 01:38:48,280
Speaker 2: then I met with Roger and had this opportunity to

1857
01:38:48,320 --> 01:38:51,920
Speaker 2: do amused to death and couldn't say no to that?

1858
01:38:52,520 --> 01:38:53,920
Speaker 1: And how did you meet Bill Patrell?

1859
01:38:56,880 --> 01:39:02,240
Speaker 2: How did I meet Bill? I don't remember how I

1860
01:39:02,280 --> 01:39:05,920
Speaker 2: met him, but you know, I know that I think

1861
01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:08,880
Speaker 2: the first time we worked together was when he engineered

1862
01:39:08,920 --> 01:39:15,240
Speaker 2: like a prayer and I would say with a clear

1863
01:39:15,320 --> 01:39:17,240
Speaker 2: conscience that he's the best that's ever done it.

1864
01:39:18,960 --> 01:39:19,439
Speaker 1: Wow.

1865
01:39:20,520 --> 01:39:22,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Bill has the best years of anybody

1866
01:39:22,760 --> 01:39:25,439
Speaker 2: that's ever done it. And I really mean that.

1867
01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:28,599
Speaker 1: Okay, So you finish with Roger Waters and used to Death,

1868
01:39:29,439 --> 01:39:29,840
Speaker 1: then what.

1869
01:39:33,320 --> 01:39:36,799
Speaker 2: Let me see where are we? I think Third Matinee,

1870
01:39:37,040 --> 01:39:41,080
Speaker 2: which was another one of those semi vanity projects, and

1871
01:39:41,120 --> 01:39:42,360
Speaker 2: this one was with Richard.

1872
01:39:42,080 --> 01:39:45,360
Speaker 1: Page and was this with Warner Brothers again?

1873
01:39:46,200 --> 01:39:49,160
Speaker 2: It was yeah, less of a band thing.

1874
01:39:49,120 --> 01:39:50,840
Speaker 1: Were they as he hands off as they were the

1875
01:39:50,880 --> 01:39:51,200
Speaker 1: first on?

1876
01:39:52,080 --> 01:39:55,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yeah? Yeah?

1877
01:39:55,680 --> 01:39:59,160
Speaker 1: Okay. How do you end up working with Brian Ferry?

1878
01:40:04,479 --> 01:40:07,200
Speaker 2: I don't remember how that started or how it came,

1879
01:40:09,240 --> 01:40:11,920
Speaker 2: but it was right after True Blue. I had just

1880
01:40:12,280 --> 01:40:14,400
Speaker 2: finished True Blue, I think it had just come out,

1881
01:40:15,680 --> 01:40:17,640
Speaker 2: and I don't remember how it turned up, but I

1882
01:40:17,680 --> 01:40:20,720
Speaker 2: remember that, you know, Bryan and I worked in the

1883
01:40:20,760 --> 01:40:23,000
Speaker 2: family room of the house, just like we weren't on

1884
01:40:23,120 --> 01:40:26,120
Speaker 2: True Blue. You know, it was just a little tape

1885
01:40:26,160 --> 01:40:27,960
Speaker 2: machine and a little board in the in the house,

1886
01:40:29,760 --> 01:40:31,479
Speaker 2: and we did a lot of it in the house

1887
01:40:31,520 --> 01:40:35,960
Speaker 2: and some of it in you know, in studios. And

1888
01:40:36,000 --> 01:40:37,839
Speaker 2: then like I say that little you know, the Gilmore

1889
01:40:37,880 --> 01:40:40,720
Speaker 2: thing to England, but Lion's share of that was in

1890
01:40:40,760 --> 01:40:41,080
Speaker 2: the house.

1891
01:40:41,160 --> 01:40:43,560
Speaker 1: Okay. I have to bring up a track that I

1892
01:40:43,720 --> 01:40:45,960
Speaker 1: happened to love. It was unknown for a long time,

1893
01:40:46,000 --> 01:40:50,160
Speaker 1: but then it was released again in the initial Fleetwood

1894
01:40:50,200 --> 01:40:55,200
Speaker 1: Mac box set, the original song love Shines. I adore

1895
01:40:55,280 --> 01:40:57,760
Speaker 1: that track. Tell me the backstory there?

1896
01:40:59,479 --> 01:40:59,799
Speaker 2: Wow?

1897
01:41:00,760 --> 01:41:02,040
Speaker 1: Did I do that? Yes?

1898
01:41:02,240 --> 01:41:03,160
Speaker 2: Does it say I did that?

1899
01:41:03,880 --> 01:41:06,000
Speaker 1: So maybe if you can't remember, there's no story.

1900
01:41:06,600 --> 01:41:10,559
Speaker 2: Well, this this the Fleetwood Mac moment in the studio,

1901
01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:16,200
Speaker 2: and that time period was absolutely mad. I mean they were,

1902
01:41:16,640 --> 01:41:22,160
Speaker 2: they were mad. I think Lindsay was not there, and uh,

1903
01:41:23,000 --> 01:41:25,879
Speaker 2: Christine was solid and beautiful and they were all beautiful.

1904
01:41:25,920 --> 01:41:30,680
Speaker 2: It was just it was. It wasn't easy, but it

1905
01:41:30,720 --> 01:41:34,080
Speaker 2: wasn't hard either and there and they're they're lovely folks

1906
01:41:34,120 --> 01:41:41,760
Speaker 2: and so it had its challenges, I remember them. But

1907
01:41:41,880 --> 01:41:43,559
Speaker 2: we did it. We got there, you know.

1908
01:41:43,920 --> 01:41:48,400
Speaker 1: Okay, So you've had all this huge success, are you

1909
01:41:48,560 --> 01:41:49,960
Speaker 1: saying no to a lot of people.

1910
01:41:52,320 --> 01:41:55,400
Speaker 2: Not no, no, there's no one's asking, which I'm grateful for.

1911
01:41:55,560 --> 01:41:57,320
Speaker 1: No, no, no, then no, no, I'm talking about that

1912
01:41:57,920 --> 01:41:58,639
Speaker 1: in the eighties.

1913
01:41:58,680 --> 01:42:02,479
Speaker 2: And then yeah, I think when when I was doing

1914
01:42:02,520 --> 01:42:06,120
Speaker 2: Amused to Death, which took me almost two years. When

1915
01:42:06,160 --> 01:42:09,120
Speaker 2: I say we, I mean me, I mean us. We

1916
01:42:09,160 --> 01:42:13,559
Speaker 2: worked on it for a long time. I think I

1917
01:42:13,680 --> 01:42:19,120
Speaker 2: probably turned down is the wrong word, because I don't

1918
01:42:19,120 --> 01:42:22,360
Speaker 2: think I ever did that. But I remember my manager

1919
01:42:22,479 --> 01:42:25,679
Speaker 2: saying that I was being offered just about every record

1920
01:42:25,720 --> 01:42:28,519
Speaker 2: that was being made at the time, you know, mostly

1921
01:42:28,560 --> 01:42:31,240
Speaker 2: just because of like a prayer, you know. I think

1922
01:42:31,280 --> 01:42:34,000
Speaker 2: most of those people would have not been good fits

1923
01:42:34,040 --> 01:42:38,040
Speaker 2: for me. I'm a little odd, but yeah, there was

1924
01:42:38,080 --> 01:42:40,320
Speaker 2: a lot of work that I didn't do, and and

1925
01:42:40,600 --> 01:42:42,559
Speaker 2: it's always been my nature. I don't I don't have

1926
01:42:42,600 --> 01:42:45,960
Speaker 2: one of these, you know, seventy five album discographies, you know,

1927
01:42:46,000 --> 01:42:46,680
Speaker 2: I don't.

1928
01:42:46,920 --> 01:42:49,760
Speaker 1: Okay, how do you does Madonna get you involved in

1929
01:42:49,840 --> 01:42:50,400
Speaker 1: Ray of Light?

1930
01:42:54,280 --> 01:42:56,120
Speaker 2: I think she, I think she, you know, at the

1931
01:42:56,160 --> 01:42:58,839
Speaker 2: time of faxing was big and I got a fax

1932
01:42:58,920 --> 01:43:01,960
Speaker 2: from her saying, you know, it's been a lot of years,

1933
01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:03,840
Speaker 2: but I think it'd be nice to work together again.

1934
01:43:05,920 --> 01:43:10,720
Speaker 2: And she asked me she said, I'm trying to I

1935
01:43:10,760 --> 01:43:14,400
Speaker 2: want to write a song that's nine inch Nails meets

1936
01:43:14,880 --> 01:43:20,040
Speaker 2: the English Patient, And I wrote Frozen and sent it

1937
01:43:20,080 --> 01:43:21,600
Speaker 2: to her and she went, great, let's go. So we

1938
01:43:21,640 --> 01:43:27,280
Speaker 2: went to Florida to some studio in Florida, Gloya Estavs

1939
01:43:27,640 --> 01:43:32,880
Speaker 2: Stefanse Studio and wrote you know, the line's share of

1940
01:43:32,920 --> 01:43:35,320
Speaker 2: the songs on that record in a couple of weeks,

1941
01:43:37,080 --> 01:43:41,559
Speaker 2: and then she met William Orbit or heard his stuff

1942
01:43:41,640 --> 01:43:44,519
Speaker 2: or something and asked if I would be okay with

1943
01:43:44,600 --> 01:43:47,559
Speaker 2: him doing this and I could, you could just kind

1944
01:43:47,560 --> 01:43:50,360
Speaker 2: of oversee it and be there to make sure everything

1945
01:43:50,400 --> 01:43:52,240
Speaker 2: was okay, and you know, what was I going to say?

1946
01:43:53,280 --> 01:43:55,040
Speaker 2: And I think it was a right decision. She made

1947
01:43:55,040 --> 01:43:58,479
Speaker 2: a great decision. Though. I've recently found the demos that

1948
01:43:58,520 --> 01:44:00,920
Speaker 2: we did, and they had their own thing, just like

1949
01:44:01,439 --> 01:44:04,160
Speaker 2: all our stuff did, because basically all the records were

1950
01:44:04,560 --> 01:44:05,880
Speaker 2: essentially demos.

1951
01:44:06,280 --> 01:44:08,840
Speaker 1: You know. Okay, how did you get hooked up with Elton?

1952
01:44:12,800 --> 01:44:18,320
Speaker 2: I think Elton was through dream Works for the Road

1953
01:44:18,360 --> 01:44:23,959
Speaker 2: Del Dorado, and I don't really remember how that came about.

1954
01:44:24,240 --> 01:44:25,880
Speaker 2: I think it might have been the Austins, you know,

1955
01:44:25,920 --> 01:44:30,880
Speaker 2: Michael Austin, because DreamWorks was associated with them, and so

1956
01:44:31,040 --> 01:44:34,320
Speaker 2: I think I was hired to produce the soundtrack for

1957
01:44:34,439 --> 01:44:38,920
Speaker 2: that movie, for the animated Road del Dorado that Elton

1958
01:44:39,000 --> 01:44:43,719
Speaker 2: was writing with Tim Rice, if I remember correctly, and

1959
01:44:44,120 --> 01:44:46,240
Speaker 2: that's how we got hooked up. And I produced that

1960
01:44:46,360 --> 01:44:49,720
Speaker 2: with him and it was amazing, but there was no

1961
01:44:49,800 --> 01:44:53,280
Speaker 2: writing in it other than Somewhere out of the Blue,

1962
01:44:53,320 --> 01:44:55,720
Speaker 2: which I think was the single. I had written the

1963
01:44:55,800 --> 01:45:00,040
Speaker 2: music for that, and Tim wrote a lyric and and

1964
01:45:00,080 --> 01:45:05,200
Speaker 2: wrote the melody, and I don't remember if I don't

1965
01:45:05,200 --> 01:45:08,439
Speaker 2: remember if it went if I saw the lyric and

1966
01:45:08,479 --> 01:45:10,439
Speaker 2: I wrote to the lyric, I don't think so I did.

1967
01:45:10,640 --> 01:45:13,519
Speaker 2: I think I just wrote something and showed it Delton

1968
01:45:13,520 --> 01:45:16,840
Speaker 2: and it became that song. And then after that, you know,

1969
01:45:16,880 --> 01:45:18,599
Speaker 2: he asked me to do songs on the West Coast.

1970
01:45:19,760 --> 01:45:23,320
Speaker 1: And did you feel left out when he moved on

1971
01:45:23,479 --> 01:45:26,360
Speaker 1: from you? No?

1972
01:45:26,360 --> 01:45:29,200
Speaker 2: No, I didn't. I mean, I you know, we're still

1973
01:45:29,240 --> 01:45:31,040
Speaker 2: in touch, and I did, like I said, we did

1974
01:45:31,040 --> 01:45:34,400
Speaker 2: this thing last October, and I just I love him,

1975
01:45:34,600 --> 01:45:37,599
Speaker 2: and you know, I'm grateful that he's in my life

1976
01:45:37,600 --> 01:45:37,880
Speaker 2: at all.

1977
01:45:38,040 --> 01:45:44,360
Speaker 1: You know. So, how did you hook up with Leonard Cullen? Uh?

1978
01:45:45,360 --> 01:45:49,960
Speaker 2: His son Adam and I. Adam had asked me to

1979
01:45:50,040 --> 01:45:53,360
Speaker 2: work on a band project that he was that he

1980
01:45:53,400 --> 01:45:56,559
Speaker 2: was in called Low Millions, and I don't know how

1981
01:45:56,800 --> 01:45:59,559
Speaker 2: that happened, but I think I worked on a few

1982
01:45:59,600 --> 01:46:04,760
Speaker 2: songs for the Low Millions project, and then some time

1983
01:46:04,840 --> 01:46:06,840
Speaker 2: after that, I think it might have been even a

1984
01:46:06,880 --> 01:46:10,320
Speaker 2: couple of years after that, I don't remember exactly, Adam

1985
01:46:10,960 --> 01:46:12,840
Speaker 2: asked me if I would produce an album for him,

1986
01:46:13,680 --> 01:46:18,519
Speaker 2: and we made an album called Like a Man, and

1987
01:46:20,080 --> 01:46:24,599
Speaker 2: it was that my my deal with the record is yes,

1988
01:46:24,640 --> 01:46:29,360
Speaker 2: I will, but it's my way completely, no pushback, zero,

1989
01:46:29,520 --> 01:46:32,040
Speaker 2: It's just my way. And he agreed to it, and

1990
01:46:32,080 --> 01:46:35,439
Speaker 2: he was good for his word. So I had him

1991
01:46:35,640 --> 01:46:39,400
Speaker 2: in very uncomfortable you know places, tapping the time on

1992
01:46:39,479 --> 01:46:41,320
Speaker 2: his mic stand while he played the guitar and sang

1993
01:46:41,360 --> 01:46:43,760
Speaker 2: the vocal live, whether he likes it or not, you know,

1994
01:46:44,520 --> 01:46:46,080
Speaker 2: until he could get it, and I think it was

1995
01:46:46,400 --> 01:46:48,320
Speaker 2: it was a very strong piece of work as a

1996
01:46:48,360 --> 01:46:54,639
Speaker 2: result of the torture. And his dad heard it and said,

1997
01:46:54,680 --> 01:46:58,680
Speaker 2: I'd like to meet this guy, and we did. We met,

1998
01:46:58,720 --> 01:47:02,120
Speaker 2: and then we you know, we started writing songs. He

1999
01:47:02,200 --> 01:47:04,600
Speaker 2: gave me lyrics and I'd write to it, you know,

2000
01:47:05,000 --> 01:47:08,360
Speaker 2: and that's how that started. And then we spent a

2001
01:47:08,400 --> 01:47:09,240
Speaker 2: lot of years together.

2002
01:47:16,840 --> 01:47:21,479
Speaker 1: Okay, Leonard went through varying periods in his career. This

2003
01:47:21,800 --> 01:47:24,160
Speaker 1: is the time when all of a sudden he's booked

2004
01:47:24,200 --> 01:47:27,600
Speaker 1: on a tour and he comes back and there's a

2005
01:47:27,600 --> 01:47:32,720
Speaker 1: lot of attention paid. So what can you tell us

2006
01:47:32,760 --> 01:47:33,479
Speaker 1: about Leonard?

2007
01:47:35,760 --> 01:47:41,679
Speaker 2: Well, there's there's only one. I can tell you that

2008
01:47:42,560 --> 01:47:47,559
Speaker 2: like no one I've ever met, and many many many

2009
01:47:47,840 --> 01:47:53,559
Speaker 2: in many many ways. I don't know. Like I said,

2010
01:47:53,600 --> 01:47:56,800
Speaker 2: when we started talking after Leonard passed, I didn't really

2011
01:47:56,840 --> 01:47:59,160
Speaker 2: feel like writing anybody with anybody else.

2012
01:47:59,640 --> 01:47:59,800
Speaker 1: You know.

2013
01:48:00,120 --> 01:48:02,080
Speaker 2: I mean, when the when, the when the email would

2014
01:48:02,160 --> 01:48:05,120
Speaker 2: ding and I'd see that it was from him, and

2015
01:48:05,120 --> 01:48:07,760
Speaker 2: I'd open it up and it was a lyric, which meant,

2016
01:48:07,760 --> 01:48:12,719
Speaker 2: here's another lyric. Write a song, and you read these lyrics,

2017
01:48:13,240 --> 01:48:16,639
Speaker 2: you know, I could choke up right now. No one

2018
01:48:16,640 --> 01:48:20,599
Speaker 2: could write like Leonard Cohen. Sorry, not in my book,

2019
01:48:21,080 --> 01:48:24,360
Speaker 2: not anything I ever experienced. I mean Roger, you know,

2020
01:48:24,479 --> 01:48:28,679
Speaker 2: Roger Waters is a genius lyricist, but it's a different thing.

2021
01:48:29,240 --> 01:48:29,439
Speaker 1: You know.

2022
01:48:29,560 --> 01:48:33,960
Speaker 2: Leonard could write quatrains and just blow your mind, you know,

2023
01:48:34,160 --> 01:48:39,639
Speaker 2: with what he would find in these simple little rhymes. Yeah,

2024
01:48:39,720 --> 01:48:42,040
Speaker 2: that was That was one of my favorite times of

2025
01:48:42,120 --> 01:48:46,559
Speaker 2: making music. And part of it is that was a

2026
01:48:46,600 --> 01:48:51,000
Speaker 2: little strange is that there was no Leonard didn't want

2027
01:48:51,080 --> 01:48:55,639
Speaker 2: any musicians. He was fine with, you know, us in

2028
01:48:55,680 --> 01:49:02,120
Speaker 2: his guest house room with a laptop and a keyboard

2029
01:49:02,280 --> 01:49:05,760
Speaker 2: and a microphone and a pair of speakers. And so

2030
01:49:06,760 --> 01:49:12,479
Speaker 2: the records themselves, I never got to really realize any

2031
01:49:12,520 --> 01:49:18,320
Speaker 2: record making. But if they're they're still beautiful, I think

2032
01:49:18,479 --> 01:49:22,160
Speaker 2: in their own little way, you know, because the the

2033
01:49:22,240 --> 01:49:26,280
Speaker 2: simplicity of it allowed Leonard to have nothing else to

2034
01:49:26,320 --> 01:49:30,519
Speaker 2: deal with, and he was real quite clear about that,

2035
01:49:30,880 --> 01:49:35,320
Speaker 2: you know, And and I learned. I learned something, you know,

2036
01:49:35,360 --> 01:49:38,439
Speaker 2: and it's it's interesting to make that many records and

2037
01:49:38,479 --> 01:49:47,160
Speaker 2: then learn something fairly big about when what occurs when

2038
01:49:47,280 --> 01:49:51,200
Speaker 2: someone steps out even a little bit, when they're playing

2039
01:49:52,320 --> 01:49:54,639
Speaker 2: a bass part or a guitar, pety or drums, whatever

2040
01:49:54,640 --> 01:50:00,200
Speaker 2: it is, when they bring themselves into it, what happens.

2041
01:50:00,280 --> 01:50:02,759
Speaker 2: There was none of that, you know, there was nothing

2042
01:50:02,760 --> 01:50:05,839
Speaker 2: got brought into it, and so Leonard and the poetry

2043
01:50:05,960 --> 01:50:09,160
Speaker 2: could just hang in the air with no other egos

2044
01:50:09,200 --> 01:50:13,479
Speaker 2: at all. And you know, I would say that I

2045
01:50:13,560 --> 01:50:22,400
Speaker 2: was certainly there, but disciplining, you know, what is it?

2046
01:50:22,520 --> 01:50:26,479
Speaker 2: Just to stay out of the way all the time.

2047
01:50:28,640 --> 01:50:32,439
Speaker 2: So interesting, I mean, beautiful exercise. And you know, and

2048
01:50:32,560 --> 01:50:36,080
Speaker 2: I think, I think I learned more about the creative

2049
01:50:36,120 --> 01:50:41,559
Speaker 2: process then everything else put together from Leonard.

2050
01:50:42,560 --> 01:50:44,800
Speaker 1: And did he ever talk about how he did it

2051
01:50:44,840 --> 01:50:48,080
Speaker 1: previously in terms of him writing the lyrics and somebody

2052
01:50:48,080 --> 01:50:49,400
Speaker 1: else doing the music or what.

2053
01:50:50,400 --> 01:50:52,080
Speaker 2: No, we didn't talk about it, but I you know,

2054
01:50:52,160 --> 01:50:57,400
Speaker 2: I I love sharing the anecdote about Leonard had a

2055
01:50:57,479 --> 01:51:00,720
Speaker 2: room in his house with a bunch of shelves and

2056
01:51:00,760 --> 01:51:02,880
Speaker 2: these little office boxes, you know, the ones with the

2057
01:51:02,920 --> 01:51:06,760
Speaker 2: metal corners, the small ones that fit little notebooks, and

2058
01:51:06,840 --> 01:51:08,360
Speaker 2: on the end of the box would be the name

2059
01:51:08,400 --> 01:51:11,439
Speaker 2: of a song. And there was shelves, full floor of

2060
01:51:11,439 --> 01:51:14,120
Speaker 2: ceiling on a whole wall. And he would go in

2061
01:51:14,160 --> 01:51:16,920
Speaker 2: there in the morning in a suit and tie by

2062
01:51:16,960 --> 01:51:19,640
Speaker 2: the way every day and he would take one of

2063
01:51:19,640 --> 01:51:21,600
Speaker 2: those little office boxes and he'd go sit on a

2064
01:51:21,640 --> 01:51:23,920
Speaker 2: picnic table in his front yard in his house, in

2065
01:51:23,960 --> 01:51:27,000
Speaker 2: this little humble house he only lived upstairs, and this

2066
01:51:27,120 --> 01:51:31,240
Speaker 2: green painted thing with his fedora and his suit and

2067
01:51:31,280 --> 01:51:34,080
Speaker 2: a dollar bill tucked under his glasses. So son wouldn't

2068
01:51:34,120 --> 01:51:38,080
Speaker 2: burn his nose and la and he'd write in these

2069
01:51:38,120 --> 01:51:41,880
Speaker 2: little notebooks. He'd write another couple verses, and then he

2070
01:51:41,960 --> 01:51:43,840
Speaker 2: put the notebook back in the box, and he put

2071
01:51:43,840 --> 01:51:46,920
Speaker 2: the box back on the shelf. And when one of

2072
01:51:46,960 --> 01:51:48,800
Speaker 2: these boxes came out and he felt that there was

2073
01:51:48,880 --> 01:51:51,000
Speaker 2: enough in there that could possibly a song, you'd take

2074
01:51:51,000 --> 01:51:53,320
Speaker 2: all these verses and put them up in the computer.

2075
01:51:53,360 --> 01:51:57,919
Speaker 2: And sometimes, honestly, it was three columns of three pages

2076
01:51:58,479 --> 01:52:00,760
Speaker 2: of quatrains, you know, four lines it's or six lines,

2077
01:52:00,800 --> 01:52:03,519
Speaker 2: whatever the form was, and he's just looking for six

2078
01:52:03,640 --> 01:52:05,840
Speaker 2: or seven of them to make the song. And if

2079
01:52:05,840 --> 01:52:07,920
Speaker 2: he felt he had him, we'd record something, and if

2080
01:52:07,960 --> 01:52:10,320
Speaker 2: he didn't, the box would go back on the shelf.

2081
01:52:11,320 --> 01:52:14,360
Speaker 2: And it was every song was kind of like that,

2082
01:52:14,439 --> 01:52:16,960
Speaker 2: except somewhere he would just you know, there were songs

2083
01:52:16,960 --> 01:52:19,920
Speaker 2: that he'd just write him, you know. But I never

2084
01:52:19,920 --> 01:52:26,360
Speaker 2: saw that kind of discipline, and I never saw the

2085
01:52:27,040 --> 01:52:30,719
Speaker 2: focus of what this thing is and what it needs.

2086
01:52:31,400 --> 01:52:34,120
Speaker 2: And there was a song called Treaty that ended up

2087
01:52:34,160 --> 01:52:36,640
Speaker 2: on the last record that you know, we used to

2088
01:52:36,640 --> 01:52:39,479
Speaker 2: call it Treaty the movie. I think there was a

2089
01:52:39,560 --> 01:52:42,560
Speaker 2: line in the chorus and it was five years he

2090
01:52:42,600 --> 01:52:44,760
Speaker 2: couldn't find the line, but every once in a while

2091
01:52:44,800 --> 01:52:47,080
Speaker 2: he'd find it and we'd record another version of treaty.

2092
01:52:49,320 --> 01:52:51,040
Speaker 2: You know. I don't know how many versions of the

2093
01:52:51,040 --> 01:52:54,360
Speaker 2: treaty I have, but it happened a lot. But he

2094
01:52:53,880 --> 01:52:56,439
Speaker 2: wasn't it wasn't there yet, and every one of them,

2095
01:52:56,520 --> 01:52:58,880
Speaker 2: M'd go, great, we're finally done, you know, and then

2096
01:52:58,920 --> 01:53:01,320
Speaker 2: he'd go, no, no, that's not it. And it was

2097
01:53:01,360 --> 01:53:07,639
Speaker 2: literally one line, you know. So that to me, I learned.

2098
01:53:07,760 --> 01:53:12,680
Speaker 2: I learned something about what makes this hole that I

2099
01:53:12,720 --> 01:53:13,519
Speaker 2: didn't know before.

2100
01:53:14,640 --> 01:53:17,160
Speaker 1: Okay, did he want you to go on the road?

2101
01:53:18,320 --> 01:53:23,600
Speaker 2: Nope, never, No, he didn't once. Once we started making records,

2102
01:53:23,680 --> 01:53:25,639
Speaker 2: I think there was one little piece of a tour

2103
01:53:26,040 --> 01:53:26,720
Speaker 2: and that was it.

2104
01:53:27,600 --> 01:53:27,800
Speaker 1: You know.

2105
01:53:27,880 --> 01:53:30,080
Speaker 2: We just we just made records from when we started

2106
01:53:30,120 --> 01:53:31,559
Speaker 2: to any past.

2107
01:53:32,680 --> 01:53:37,280
Speaker 1: Okay, you have ray of light in the nineties. Once

2108
01:53:37,280 --> 01:53:40,800
Speaker 1: we hit the twenty first century, is there as much

2109
01:53:40,880 --> 01:53:42,040
Speaker 1: work as there used to be?

2110
01:53:44,560 --> 01:53:48,360
Speaker 2: No, there isn't. And also, I I around that time

2111
01:53:49,760 --> 01:53:54,759
Speaker 2: the technology had really really crept in and the writing

2112
01:53:57,000 --> 01:54:01,160
Speaker 2: the what is it? Just the songs, the types of songs,

2113
01:54:01,160 --> 01:54:03,559
Speaker 2: the type of chord progressions, the type of change so

2114
01:54:03,720 --> 01:54:08,280
Speaker 2: dramatically that I just didn't feel that much for it.

2115
01:54:08,320 --> 01:54:09,840
Speaker 2: I just didn't have it. I just didn't feel that

2116
01:54:09,920 --> 01:54:13,400
Speaker 2: symbiotic with it. You know, I'm not interested in four chords,

2117
01:54:14,040 --> 01:54:16,280
Speaker 2: and I'm not interested in everything being tuned, and I'm

2118
01:54:16,320 --> 01:54:20,080
Speaker 2: not interested in everything being quantized. I'm not And so

2119
01:54:20,720 --> 01:54:25,320
Speaker 2: once those records started being kind of the norm, I'm

2120
01:54:25,360 --> 01:54:27,680
Speaker 2: not going to do it just to do it, you know.

2121
01:54:28,720 --> 01:54:32,840
Speaker 1: Okay. And in that period, like we discussed earlier, were

2122
01:54:32,880 --> 01:54:35,440
Speaker 1: you still playing the piano every day? Were you still

2123
01:54:35,480 --> 01:54:36,160
Speaker 1: as disciplined?

2124
01:54:37,040 --> 01:54:41,400
Speaker 2: Absolutely, maybe more so because the focus was just trying

2125
01:54:41,440 --> 01:54:43,440
Speaker 2: to find my own you know. Search of the Lost

2126
01:54:43,480 --> 01:54:44,600
Speaker 2: Chord is how we used.

2127
01:54:44,480 --> 01:54:47,400
Speaker 1: To say, great album. I hate to say it, but

2128
01:54:47,440 --> 01:54:50,480
Speaker 1: that is the best one. And I came to that one,

2129
01:54:51,520 --> 01:54:55,880
Speaker 1: that's right. So how'd you decide to make a deal

2130
01:54:55,920 --> 01:54:56,840
Speaker 1: with Primary Wave?

2131
01:54:59,160 --> 01:55:05,240
Speaker 2: Just just uh just made sense at the time, just

2132
01:55:05,280 --> 01:55:08,280
Speaker 2: made sense of them. They're good guys, you know, they're

2133
01:55:08,320 --> 01:55:10,680
Speaker 2: they're they're they're good guys. They have heart, they've been

2134
01:55:10,760 --> 01:55:12,120
Speaker 2: very supportive, they're good.

2135
01:55:14,080 --> 01:55:17,800
Speaker 1: So, yeah, okay, was this something you saw everybody else

2136
01:55:17,840 --> 01:55:20,120
Speaker 1: making a deal and is like maybe i'll sell too,

2137
01:55:20,760 --> 01:55:23,640
Speaker 1: or did you take it to different companies? Or did

2138
01:55:23,640 --> 01:55:25,520
Speaker 1: they approach you? How did the process begin?

2139
01:55:28,880 --> 01:55:32,560
Speaker 2: Uh? Our business manager has a relationship with them, and

2140
01:55:32,600 --> 01:55:34,160
Speaker 2: it was just one of these things that you would

2141
01:55:34,200 --> 01:55:35,920
Speaker 2: you like to talk about this. I said sure, and

2142
01:55:35,960 --> 01:55:37,560
Speaker 2: we did and it was like, well, yeah.

2143
01:55:37,440 --> 01:55:38,040
Speaker 1: Let's do it.

2144
01:55:38,400 --> 01:55:40,240
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I don't give a lot of

2145
01:55:40,240 --> 01:55:41,080
Speaker 2: thought to these things.

2146
01:55:41,520 --> 01:55:45,600
Speaker 1: And just to be clear, you sold one hundred percent everything. Yeah,

2147
01:55:45,680 --> 01:55:49,960
Speaker 1: so there's no further royalty for you. You got a chunk, right,

2148
01:55:50,080 --> 01:55:51,320
Speaker 1: What did you do with that money?

2149
01:55:53,520 --> 01:55:54,400
Speaker 2: Drugs and girls?

2150
01:55:54,720 --> 01:55:58,000
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Actually I know somebody who did blows close to

2151
01:55:58,040 --> 01:56:01,400
Speaker 1: the money. So I made one of those tens of

2152
01:56:01,400 --> 01:56:03,440
Speaker 1: millions deals. No, but you get it. You know you're

2153
01:56:03,440 --> 01:56:05,840
Speaker 1: getting royalty checks. Now, you get a big lum sum

2154
01:56:05,920 --> 01:56:07,760
Speaker 1: you gotta you know, it gets whacked a few times

2155
01:56:07,760 --> 01:56:11,320
Speaker 1: by the government's other profit participants, but then you got

2156
01:56:11,320 --> 01:56:12,880
Speaker 1: to do something with it. Do you put it in

2157
01:56:12,920 --> 01:56:15,400
Speaker 1: real estate? Do you buy something you always wanted to buy?

2158
01:56:15,560 --> 01:56:18,960
Speaker 1: Do you put it in stocks? I mean it requires

2159
01:56:18,960 --> 01:56:21,480
Speaker 1: a certain amount of attention.

2160
01:56:21,320 --> 01:56:24,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and not not something I'm very good at. But

2161
01:56:25,120 --> 01:56:30,440
Speaker 2: you know, it's never been my forte. But you know,

2162
01:56:31,040 --> 01:56:33,840
Speaker 2: we're good, we're happy, and we're still making music and

2163
01:56:34,160 --> 01:56:36,360
Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to sell a billion vinyls.

2164
01:56:36,720 --> 01:56:38,480
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back. How many kids do you have?

2165
01:56:39,440 --> 01:56:39,839
Speaker 2: Three?

2166
01:56:40,000 --> 01:56:41,040
Speaker 1: And how old are they.

2167
01:56:42,480 --> 01:56:46,480
Speaker 2: Of? Thirty four, thirty seven, thirty nine, and what are

2168
01:56:46,480 --> 01:56:55,200
Speaker 2: they up to? I think they're just I don't know.

2169
01:56:55,560 --> 01:56:58,360
Speaker 2: I mean, one of them is doing some real estate stuff,

2170
01:56:58,400 --> 01:57:00,640
Speaker 2: the other one's doing some writing, the other one's playing music.

2171
01:57:01,440 --> 01:57:03,720
Speaker 2: I think it's I feel for them. I feel for

2172
01:57:03,760 --> 01:57:06,560
Speaker 2: that generation. I think they're a lot more lost than

2173
01:57:06,560 --> 01:57:09,400
Speaker 2: my generation was. And I love them, and they're bright kids,

2174
01:57:09,400 --> 01:57:11,760
Speaker 2: and they're good kids, and they're not kids or grown ups,

2175
01:57:12,160 --> 01:57:16,960
Speaker 2: you know, But I think it's it may be difficult

2176
01:57:17,880 --> 01:57:23,840
Speaker 2: when you can see a parent do what he loves passionately,

2177
01:57:24,800 --> 01:57:28,800
Speaker 2: almost a little bit haphazardly, and have it work so well,

2178
01:57:29,560 --> 01:57:32,040
Speaker 2: and and then go at trying to do something and

2179
01:57:32,080 --> 01:57:35,360
Speaker 2: find such a different world that meets you. I mean,

2180
01:57:35,680 --> 01:57:39,960
Speaker 2: you know, I think if I were fourteen right now,

2181
01:57:40,600 --> 01:57:43,520
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be in the studio with somebody, you know

2182
01:57:43,560 --> 01:57:45,520
Speaker 2: what I mean. I'd be staring at a cell phone

2183
01:57:46,280 --> 01:57:47,960
Speaker 2: trying to get the little ball to go, you know,

2184
01:57:48,000 --> 01:57:52,040
Speaker 2: whatever it is, you know, like trying to get more likes.

2185
01:57:52,280 --> 01:57:57,560
Speaker 1: So, how has your work your choice of work affected

2186
01:57:57,680 --> 01:58:00,440
Speaker 1: your relationships romantic relationships.

2187
01:58:04,000 --> 01:58:12,240
Speaker 2: Well, I would say then I met Anna eight years

2188
01:58:12,280 --> 01:58:16,240
Speaker 2: ago and I am truly happy for the first time

2189
01:58:16,240 --> 01:58:20,600
Speaker 2: in my life. And I don't think work had much

2190
01:58:20,640 --> 01:58:27,560
Speaker 2: to do with any of it along the way. I

2191
01:58:27,640 --> 01:58:30,680
Speaker 2: just don't think it was ever really right, and now

2192
01:58:30,680 --> 01:58:33,640
Speaker 2: it is, so I got really lucky.

2193
01:58:33,960 --> 01:58:35,680
Speaker 1: You know, you didn't go on the road that much.

2194
01:58:35,680 --> 01:58:37,560
Speaker 1: You say, three big tours, but a lot of people

2195
01:58:37,600 --> 01:58:40,400
Speaker 1: you talk to them and say, you know, the relationship

2196
01:58:40,480 --> 01:58:43,400
Speaker 1: couldn't last because I was absent a lot of time.

2197
01:58:43,720 --> 01:58:46,400
Speaker 1: Now also there's the issue of you know, people are

2198
01:58:46,400 --> 01:58:49,120
Speaker 1: working round the clock, whether it be music or anything

2199
01:58:49,160 --> 01:58:50,640
Speaker 1: that can impact relationship.

2200
01:58:51,800 --> 01:58:54,360
Speaker 2: No, that was never really and I think I think

2201
01:58:57,800 --> 01:58:59,640
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know that I would know this.

2202
01:59:00,160 --> 01:59:05,240
Speaker 2: I know it now because of Anna. But it's either

2203
01:59:05,320 --> 01:59:08,560
Speaker 2: right or it isn't in my life, And now it's right,

2204
01:59:08,640 --> 01:59:10,920
Speaker 2: and there's been there's not a bump, not a hiccup,

2205
01:59:10,960 --> 01:59:13,280
Speaker 2: not a nothing, no issues, no matter how much I work,

2206
01:59:13,360 --> 01:59:17,320
Speaker 2: no matter what we're doing, we are. We are absolutely

2207
01:59:17,320 --> 01:59:18,240
Speaker 2: fabulous all the time.

2208
01:59:18,320 --> 01:59:19,200
Speaker 1: And how did you meet her?

2209
01:59:20,760 --> 01:59:22,920
Speaker 2: Through a friend in la you know, just a mutual

2210
01:59:23,040 --> 01:59:23,760
Speaker 2: musician friend.

2211
01:59:26,000 --> 01:59:29,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, was it a setup romantic or you

2212
01:59:29,560 --> 01:59:31,480
Speaker 1: just went somewhere and she was there and it took

2213
01:59:31,520 --> 01:59:31,880
Speaker 1: from there.

2214
01:59:32,520 --> 01:59:36,080
Speaker 2: No, he said you guys should meet, and we did it.

2215
01:59:36,400 --> 01:59:38,600
Speaker 2: And he was right, you know he was, He was

2216
01:59:38,640 --> 01:59:40,600
Speaker 2: absolutely right. I mean, it was it was, it was

2217
01:59:41,000 --> 01:59:42,240
Speaker 2: right away from day one.

2218
01:59:42,960 --> 01:59:47,040
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to the new record. The record

2219
01:59:47,120 --> 01:59:51,160
Speaker 1: you're putting out now is in a very changed landscape

2220
01:59:51,600 --> 01:59:56,120
Speaker 1: from the Toy Matinee and Third Matinee world. There are

2221
01:59:56,120 --> 01:59:58,960
Speaker 1: a lot of people of our vintage who won't even

2222
01:59:59,040 --> 02:00:02,880
Speaker 1: make new music because they feel it won't be exposed,

2223
02:00:02,920 --> 02:00:06,560
Speaker 1: they won't reach an audience, and even the biggest acts

2224
02:00:06,600 --> 02:00:09,480
Speaker 1: in the world don't reach the kind of people that

2225
02:00:09,520 --> 02:00:12,920
Speaker 1: Madonna did in the eighties and nineties. So to what

2226
02:00:13,040 --> 02:00:15,880
Speaker 1: degree does that affect your outlook in terms of making

2227
02:00:15,920 --> 02:00:19,080
Speaker 1: an album?

2228
02:00:19,120 --> 02:00:25,040
Speaker 2: Well, I think I don't think I've ever had more

2229
02:00:25,080 --> 02:00:30,560
Speaker 2: fun making a record than I had making this one, because,

2230
02:00:30,560 --> 02:00:34,120
Speaker 2: as I said earlier, I didn't have to negotiate anything.

2231
02:00:35,080 --> 02:00:41,720
Speaker 2: So the freedom that it gave me, I think created

2232
02:00:41,760 --> 02:00:50,640
Speaker 2: a result that is it's just in a nice place,

2233
02:00:51,200 --> 02:00:53,160
Speaker 2: you know, It's I think that I think the records

2234
02:00:53,160 --> 02:00:55,000
Speaker 2: in a nice place and it's and it's I think

2235
02:00:55,000 --> 02:01:02,920
Speaker 2: it's a well well done thing. And so for what

2236
02:01:03,040 --> 02:01:08,680
Speaker 2: my aspirations have been to at this point, make a

2237
02:01:08,760 --> 02:01:11,000
Speaker 2: record that I'm proud of that I think is really

2238
02:01:11,000 --> 02:01:15,000
Speaker 2: good and look forward to making another one is a

2239
02:01:15,000 --> 02:01:18,360
Speaker 2: big improvement from digging around with children that want to

2240
02:01:18,400 --> 02:01:21,400
Speaker 2: quantize their voices and sing to a drum machine. I

2241
02:01:21,400 --> 02:01:25,560
Speaker 2: can't do that, and I'm not judging it. I just

2242
02:01:25,600 --> 02:01:29,000
Speaker 2: have no interest in it. It's no different than you know,

2243
02:01:29,120 --> 02:01:31,840
Speaker 2: I don't want to belong either. I don't relate to

2244
02:01:31,880 --> 02:01:35,720
Speaker 2: it so that I'm getting to do what I love

2245
02:01:36,840 --> 02:01:39,280
Speaker 2: at the level I'm getting to do it at, even

2246
02:01:39,320 --> 02:01:43,840
Speaker 2: if it's in a market that doesn't exist, I kind

2247
02:01:43,840 --> 02:01:48,480
Speaker 2: of think that it will find its home wherever that is.

2248
02:01:49,200 --> 02:01:52,840
Speaker 2: And I think that because I Vinyl focused it, and

2249
02:01:52,880 --> 02:01:56,160
Speaker 2: I really did. I mean, I spent more time balancing

2250
02:01:56,200 --> 02:02:00,080
Speaker 2: the sides and rearranging the songs and writing songs to

2251
02:02:00,120 --> 02:02:02,280
Speaker 2: make a side feel more complete. I mean that was

2252
02:02:02,360 --> 02:02:04,400
Speaker 2: really the job. I wrote thirty songs to come up

2253
02:02:04,400 --> 02:02:06,960
Speaker 2: with the sixteen, and I don't mean on a napkin.

2254
02:02:07,040 --> 02:02:09,000
Speaker 2: I mean I wrote them and finished them and put

2255
02:02:09,040 --> 02:02:11,560
Speaker 2: them in a sequence, and you know, I really worked

2256
02:02:11,560 --> 02:02:14,080
Speaker 2: hard to make a vinyl, to make a double album,

2257
02:02:14,560 --> 02:02:20,160
Speaker 2: and I think that those that are still willing to

2258
02:02:20,200 --> 02:02:22,360
Speaker 2: engage that as an art form will really enjoy it

2259
02:02:22,400 --> 02:02:24,880
Speaker 2: and find it a really good one. And that's enough

2260
02:02:25,040 --> 02:02:32,080
Speaker 2: for me. You know, the the you know, fifty million

2261
02:02:32,120 --> 02:02:34,800
Speaker 2: record sale thing, it's been gone for a long time,

2262
02:02:35,360 --> 02:02:38,800
Speaker 2: you know, and people buying music has been gone for

2263
02:02:38,840 --> 02:02:41,680
Speaker 2: a long time. But it doesn't mean I don't get

2264
02:02:41,680 --> 02:02:44,800
Speaker 2: out of bed compelled to write and record music. I

2265
02:02:44,920 --> 02:02:49,760
Speaker 2: still do. Call me crazy. So this is the best

2266
02:02:50,240 --> 02:02:52,360
Speaker 2: I can come up with right now as a way

2267
02:02:52,400 --> 02:02:56,880
Speaker 2: to do it. And I think find a little bit

2268
02:02:56,920 --> 02:03:00,280
Speaker 2: of an audience because I think there's few people. I mean,

2269
02:03:00,360 --> 02:03:03,680
Speaker 2: I've had the experience of you know, people getting the vinyl,

2270
02:03:04,080 --> 02:03:06,840
Speaker 2: Elton being one of them and saying, wow, thank you.

2271
02:03:06,960 --> 02:03:09,960
Speaker 2: I mean, this actually really did the thing, and that's

2272
02:03:10,080 --> 02:03:13,160
Speaker 2: that was the goal and the goal achieved, and I

2273
02:03:13,680 --> 02:03:17,760
Speaker 2: think it's it can probably be self sustaining if enough

2274
02:03:17,800 --> 02:03:20,560
Speaker 2: final people find it. And in terms of you know,

2275
02:03:20,720 --> 02:03:23,680
Speaker 2: anything else from it, I have no expectations at all. None.

2276
02:03:24,800 --> 02:03:26,960
Speaker 2: It hasn't stopped me from writing in thirty more songs

2277
02:03:27,000 --> 02:03:32,360
Speaker 2: for another couple albums, you know, because that's what I'm crazy.

2278
02:03:38,720 --> 02:03:41,480
Speaker 1: How did you end up working with Michael Fremmer?

2279
02:03:42,880 --> 02:03:45,920
Speaker 2: Somebody introduced me to Michael a few years ago when

2280
02:03:45,920 --> 02:03:49,400
Speaker 2: we were looking for at the possibility of making a

2281
02:03:49,480 --> 02:03:53,280
Speaker 2: vinyl out of something else, and we just hit it off.

2282
02:03:53,600 --> 02:03:56,040
Speaker 2: We just started talking and hit it off. And when this,

2283
02:03:56,600 --> 02:03:58,920
Speaker 2: when this came up, we kind of stayed in touch.

2284
02:03:59,200 --> 02:04:01,640
Speaker 2: And when it came up, I just asked him if

2285
02:04:01,680 --> 02:04:04,600
Speaker 2: he'd help shepherd this through, if he would help, you know,

2286
02:04:05,880 --> 02:04:11,040
Speaker 2: all all points of it. And he did, and it's

2287
02:04:11,080 --> 02:04:13,360
Speaker 2: been very helpful. I mean that, you know, the the

2288
02:04:13,440 --> 02:04:17,520
Speaker 2: thing sounds crazy great and it was also Bob Ludwig

2289
02:04:17,640 --> 02:04:20,320
Speaker 2: mastered it and it was the last thing he did

2290
02:04:20,320 --> 02:04:23,920
Speaker 2: on the last day. Chris Bellman cut the lay, cut

2291
02:04:23,960 --> 02:04:29,640
Speaker 2: the vinyl and uh RTI, you know, took great pains

2292
02:04:29,680 --> 02:04:31,760
Speaker 2: and it sounds. It's one hundred and eighty grams and

2293
02:04:31,800 --> 02:04:35,480
Speaker 2: it's crazy. And Storm Studios did the cover. So it's

2294
02:04:35,520 --> 02:04:38,720
Speaker 2: the old hypnosis guys, and that took a year, you know,

2295
02:04:39,040 --> 02:04:41,600
Speaker 2: of going around and around the one. You pick it

2296
02:04:41,680 --> 02:04:44,160
Speaker 2: up and hold it, it's you know, it's this big

2297
02:04:44,200 --> 02:04:47,640
Speaker 2: heavy thing with all this beautiful paper and beautiful color

2298
02:04:47,680 --> 02:04:51,440
Speaker 2: and you know, all the lyrics printed out and only

2299
02:04:51,480 --> 02:04:55,520
Speaker 2: a couple things that we missed in all the text,

2300
02:04:55,600 --> 02:05:02,520
Speaker 2: you know, so you For me, it's laying on the

2301
02:05:02,560 --> 02:05:05,640
Speaker 2: floor in my bedroom with thick as a brick open

2302
02:05:05,800 --> 02:05:08,360
Speaker 2: or trying to figure out what the hell the lads

2303
02:05:08,440 --> 02:05:12,000
Speaker 2: up the four album cover was about and listening to

2304
02:05:12,120 --> 02:05:13,600
Speaker 2: music where you got to get up and turn the

2305
02:05:13,600 --> 02:05:16,880
Speaker 2: record over, and it feels like it was made specifically

2306
02:05:16,920 --> 02:05:21,200
Speaker 2: for you to listen to and enjoy. That's what I love,

2307
02:05:21,200 --> 02:05:23,800
Speaker 2: and that's what I think I'm trying to do.

2308
02:05:23,880 --> 02:05:27,200
Speaker 1: I guess, you know, knowing Fremmer, who's the king of

2309
02:05:27,280 --> 02:05:30,960
Speaker 1: Vinyl for those people don't know, and takes responsibility and

2310
02:05:31,000 --> 02:05:34,160
Speaker 1: deserves responsibility for one of the main drivers, if not

2311
02:05:34,240 --> 02:05:38,880
Speaker 1: the main drivers for bringing vinyl back. He's not an engineer.

2312
02:05:39,640 --> 02:05:43,560
Speaker 1: How did he help? Well?

2313
02:05:43,880 --> 02:05:50,400
Speaker 2: I think in in the specifics of the manufacturing one

2314
02:05:51,120 --> 02:05:52,480
Speaker 2: of like how are we going to do this and

2315
02:05:52,720 --> 02:05:55,480
Speaker 2: and how is it going to be packaged and what

2316
02:05:56,520 --> 02:05:59,760
Speaker 2: materials are getting used and from the printing to the thing,

2317
02:05:59,880 --> 02:06:02,960
Speaker 2: just to kind of give it that distinction. And also

2318
02:06:03,960 --> 02:06:07,720
Speaker 2: the whole time I was sending in my demos, you know,

2319
02:06:07,800 --> 02:06:10,360
Speaker 2: like when I do this stuff, I make a demo

2320
02:06:10,840 --> 02:06:15,080
Speaker 2: of everything. So you hear the song, and I would

2321
02:06:15,160 --> 02:06:16,920
Speaker 2: sequence it and I'd send it to him and he'd

2322
02:06:16,920 --> 02:06:20,040
Speaker 2: play it, and he would either like it or not

2323
02:06:20,160 --> 02:06:22,040
Speaker 2: like it. Most of the time he seemed to like it.

2324
02:06:22,800 --> 02:06:26,560
Speaker 2: And when we got to the place where these refs

2325
02:06:26,600 --> 02:06:28,960
Speaker 2: were cut, the refs went to him, not to me.

2326
02:06:30,880 --> 02:06:32,720
Speaker 2: You know, he was the one who said, yep, we

2327
02:06:32,760 --> 02:06:36,480
Speaker 2: can approve this ref And the same with the pressings.

2328
02:06:36,480 --> 02:06:38,480
Speaker 2: You know, when the pressings were done and test pressings,

2329
02:06:38,520 --> 02:06:42,000
Speaker 2: it's like he was checking I'm not me. I mean,

2330
02:06:42,040 --> 02:06:46,400
Speaker 2: I got a set, but it was him. And now

2331
02:06:46,520 --> 02:06:51,160
Speaker 2: with the press for the you know, vinyl press and

2332
02:06:51,240 --> 02:06:54,720
Speaker 2: the magazine's overseas, and he's sending the record to all

2333
02:06:54,760 --> 02:06:57,960
Speaker 2: of these people. And he's also carried the test pressings

2334
02:06:57,960 --> 02:07:00,560
Speaker 2: around at these conventions and played the test expressing for

2335
02:07:00,600 --> 02:07:03,960
Speaker 2: people just to see the reaction, and he tells me

2336
02:07:04,000 --> 02:07:10,320
Speaker 2: it was extremely positive, you know. So you know, I

2337
02:07:10,400 --> 02:07:12,680
Speaker 2: know that it is not everybody's cup of tea, but

2338
02:07:12,840 --> 02:07:15,400
Speaker 2: those that it is, they're a cup of tea. I

2339
02:07:15,400 --> 02:07:17,640
Speaker 2: think they like it. And I think Michael had a

2340
02:07:17,640 --> 02:07:18,280
Speaker 2: lot to do with that.

2341
02:07:18,880 --> 02:07:23,160
Speaker 1: Okay, just to cover new music, you're talking about starting

2342
02:07:23,160 --> 02:07:25,680
Speaker 1: the turn of the century, what people were doing did

2343
02:07:25,720 --> 02:07:29,360
Speaker 1: not make you want to be involved. To what degree

2344
02:07:29,400 --> 02:07:31,600
Speaker 1: do you keep up with new music? If at all?

2345
02:07:32,840 --> 02:07:35,360
Speaker 2: Not at all? Zero?

2346
02:07:36,400 --> 02:07:39,400
Speaker 1: So do you have friends who say send you an

2347
02:07:39,400 --> 02:07:40,880
Speaker 1: email and say you need to hear this?

2348
02:07:42,240 --> 02:07:42,839
Speaker 2: Not anymore?

2349
02:07:44,280 --> 02:07:51,040
Speaker 1: Okay? And is there any investigation of music history or

2350
02:07:51,080 --> 02:07:55,560
Speaker 1: you're pretty much on your own hagira out into the wilderness.

2351
02:07:56,080 --> 02:07:59,440
Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, when I want to study

2352
02:08:00,880 --> 02:08:04,960
Speaker 2: and I do. I go back to, say, a Revel

2353
02:08:05,080 --> 02:08:09,000
Speaker 2: piano piece, and I put it up, and I look

2354
02:08:09,560 --> 02:08:13,200
Speaker 2: at the lines, and I do this thing we used

2355
02:08:13,200 --> 02:08:15,320
Speaker 2: to call standing the lineup on its end. So you

2356
02:08:15,320 --> 02:08:17,800
Speaker 2: take the line that Revel plays and something, and you

2357
02:08:17,840 --> 02:08:19,800
Speaker 2: stand it up and you look at what chord it is,

2358
02:08:20,240 --> 02:08:22,680
Speaker 2: because they weren't really focused on chords in those days.

2359
02:08:23,280 --> 02:08:26,200
Speaker 2: And so now you've kind of if you get lucky,

2360
02:08:26,800 --> 02:08:30,800
Speaker 2: and you often do, you've kind of found a new

2361
02:08:30,840 --> 02:08:35,240
Speaker 2: way of harmonizing something. And if you take that little

2362
02:08:35,280 --> 02:08:39,200
Speaker 2: thing and you get it into your vocabulary, as you

2363
02:08:39,240 --> 02:08:44,680
Speaker 2: continue to create, those things show up. And I'm interested

2364
02:08:44,720 --> 02:08:48,200
Speaker 2: in that showing up much more than a drum sample,

2365
02:08:50,160 --> 02:08:53,080
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Absolutely, I can't learn anything

2366
02:08:53,080 --> 02:08:54,520
Speaker 2: from any of the shit that's going on right now,

2367
02:08:54,520 --> 02:08:56,720
Speaker 2: I'm just going to be brutal, like there's nothing I

2368
02:08:56,720 --> 02:09:00,640
Speaker 2: can learn from it. So I feel that the learning

2369
02:09:01,080 --> 02:09:04,560
Speaker 2: is more important because if I'm going to improvise and

2370
02:09:04,600 --> 02:09:07,680
Speaker 2: I'm going to continue to create, the only thing that

2371
02:09:07,680 --> 02:09:11,120
Speaker 2: makes it any better is making the palette broader, you know,

2372
02:09:12,880 --> 02:09:15,640
Speaker 2: And that's that's I know it sounds crazy because you know,

2373
02:09:15,640 --> 02:09:18,840
Speaker 2: I should be going fishing all the time, but I'm

2374
02:09:18,840 --> 02:09:19,640
Speaker 2: still obsessive.

2375
02:09:20,000 --> 02:09:24,720
Speaker 1: But you know, we've had COVID, you've moved. But is

2376
02:09:24,760 --> 02:09:27,000
Speaker 1: your lifestyle that you're pretty much at home? Or do

2377
02:09:27,040 --> 02:09:28,000
Speaker 1: you go on vacation?

2378
02:09:30,040 --> 02:09:36,600
Speaker 2: Well, because because we have the plane, we can do

2379
02:09:36,760 --> 02:09:39,240
Speaker 2: little things. You know, you can. You can you can

2380
02:09:39,360 --> 02:09:41,800
Speaker 2: just take off and go somewhere for a day and

2381
02:09:42,280 --> 02:09:44,080
Speaker 2: just go sit on a beach that you couldn't possibly

2382
02:09:44,120 --> 02:09:46,600
Speaker 2: drive to and then come home and have dinner at

2383
02:09:46,600 --> 02:09:49,080
Speaker 2: home if you want, or go stay a couple of nights,

2384
02:09:49,160 --> 02:09:54,840
Speaker 2: or you know, I think you know, and I have

2385
02:09:55,000 --> 02:09:57,400
Speaker 2: talked about vacations, we just haven't taken one.

2386
02:09:57,880 --> 02:10:01,520
Speaker 1: Well, my question is can you be away from the

2387
02:10:01,600 --> 02:10:02,720
Speaker 1: keyboard that long?

2388
02:10:03,440 --> 02:10:07,040
Speaker 2: Oh sure? Oh yeah, oh yeah, no, I mean back

2389
02:10:07,080 --> 02:10:11,160
Speaker 2: in the back in the nineties when Roger and I,

2390
02:10:11,240 --> 02:10:14,600
Speaker 2: after we started working together, we also started fishing together.

2391
02:10:15,200 --> 02:10:17,640
Speaker 2: So we did a lot of bone fishing trips for

2392
02:10:17,880 --> 02:10:20,680
Speaker 2: you know, six seven days and the keys and you know,

2393
02:10:21,320 --> 02:10:23,760
Speaker 2: and it was, it was, there's an anecdote or what

2394
02:10:23,880 --> 02:10:28,800
Speaker 2: is it? You you fish, you eat, you pretend to sleep,

2395
02:10:29,040 --> 02:10:32,120
Speaker 2: you fish, you eat you you know, because it's it's

2396
02:10:32,160 --> 02:10:37,440
Speaker 2: it's a really beautiful obsession. So no, I mean easy,

2397
02:10:37,480 --> 02:10:39,520
Speaker 2: easy for me to get in a trout streamer out

2398
02:10:39,600 --> 02:10:44,240
Speaker 2: chasing bonefish or tarp and with a fly rod, and

2399
02:10:44,320 --> 02:10:45,760
Speaker 2: I can do that for a long time.

2400
02:10:46,480 --> 02:10:50,280
Speaker 1: They say it's really hard to catch bonefish. Is that true?

2401
02:10:51,880 --> 02:10:53,680
Speaker 2: I think it's gotten harder because there's a lot more

2402
02:10:53,760 --> 02:10:55,960
Speaker 2: pressure on them. And yes, it is not that simple

2403
02:10:56,240 --> 02:10:59,280
Speaker 2: because it's a it's you know, sight fishing. You need

2404
02:10:59,360 --> 02:11:01,920
Speaker 2: to see them and obviously if you can see them,

2405
02:11:01,960 --> 02:11:04,440
Speaker 2: they can see you. So it's you know, you have

2406
02:11:04,520 --> 02:11:08,000
Speaker 2: to be able to present the fly so it doesn't

2407
02:11:08,000 --> 02:11:11,640
Speaker 2: spook them. And then you know, it's tricky. It's tricky.

2408
02:11:12,240 --> 02:11:15,400
Speaker 1: Okay, are you already working on the next album in

2409
02:11:15,440 --> 02:11:18,200
Speaker 1: your mind?

2410
02:11:18,640 --> 02:11:21,760
Speaker 2: The next album's already finished in the can demos are done,

2411
02:11:22,800 --> 02:11:25,920
Speaker 2: completely written, done, won't change anything. All the lyrics are done,

2412
02:11:25,920 --> 02:11:28,320
Speaker 2: all the music's done, and I'll be honest with you,

2413
02:11:28,920 --> 02:11:33,040
Speaker 2: there was a whole other album that came before that that,

2414
02:11:34,360 --> 02:11:38,480
Speaker 2: and then I got COVID two Christmases ago and we

2415
02:11:38,560 --> 02:11:40,440
Speaker 2: both seem to get a little bit of a long COVID,

2416
02:11:40,840 --> 02:11:42,960
Speaker 2: and I wrote this entire album that I listened to

2417
02:11:43,040 --> 02:11:45,320
Speaker 2: a couple of days ago again because I keep checking

2418
02:11:45,360 --> 02:11:47,960
Speaker 2: in to hope that I'm wrong, but there's something missing

2419
02:11:48,040 --> 02:11:51,800
Speaker 2: from it. There's something missing. It's there's something that's not there.

2420
02:11:52,080 --> 02:11:54,480
Speaker 2: And it was during this kind of long COVID of like,

2421
02:11:54,920 --> 02:11:57,360
Speaker 2: you know, I think we're okay, but maybe we're not.

2422
02:11:58,280 --> 02:12:01,600
Speaker 2: And then there was suddenly some new songs and I

2423
02:12:01,600 --> 02:12:04,960
Speaker 2: could feel that it somehow, whatever that was had passed.

2424
02:12:05,800 --> 02:12:08,080
Speaker 2: So there's twenty songs that I'll never do anything with

2425
02:12:08,160 --> 02:12:11,520
Speaker 2: and they're finished songs, but they're not. There's something I

2426
02:12:11,520 --> 02:12:13,760
Speaker 2: know that sounds weird, but there's something missing from them.

2427
02:12:13,920 --> 02:12:16,120
Speaker 1: No, I understand that just when you say finished songs,

2428
02:12:16,600 --> 02:12:19,880
Speaker 1: they have to be cut or they're masters. That's it.

2429
02:12:21,080 --> 02:12:25,920
Speaker 2: No, the songs are written, the demos are done, the

2430
02:12:26,040 --> 02:12:29,160
Speaker 2: keyboard parts are essentially there, and so now it's make

2431
02:12:29,200 --> 02:12:31,320
Speaker 2: the record out of it. But when it's in this state,

2432
02:12:31,840 --> 02:12:34,640
Speaker 2: it's a couple of weeks of tracking and it's done.

2433
02:12:35,240 --> 02:12:38,040
Speaker 2: And in most cases, I think my vocals at least

2434
02:12:38,040 --> 02:12:42,120
Speaker 2: are probably pretty done. And you know, there's always that

2435
02:12:42,320 --> 02:12:45,560
Speaker 2: line in one song that I can't find, and I'll

2436
02:12:45,560 --> 02:12:47,120
Speaker 2: either find it or I'll throw the song out and

2437
02:12:47,120 --> 02:12:50,280
Speaker 2: write another one or write another one, you know. But

2438
02:12:50,480 --> 02:12:53,520
Speaker 2: the record that's in the can right now is called

2439
02:12:53,560 --> 02:12:57,240
Speaker 2: Love and Occasional War, and I think it's really cool.

2440
02:12:57,360 --> 02:12:59,800
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't wait to make it. It's way

2441
02:12:59,840 --> 02:13:03,200
Speaker 2: to different than this record. And it's also a single album.

2442
02:13:03,280 --> 02:13:06,160
Speaker 2: It's not quite so much work, you know, it's forty minutes,

2443
02:13:06,200 --> 02:13:07,400
Speaker 2: not eighty four, you know.

2444
02:13:07,960 --> 02:13:14,839
Speaker 1: Okay, so this album comes out, we'll feedback affect anything

2445
02:13:14,920 --> 02:13:18,400
Speaker 1: you do in the future, or are you immune to feedback?

2446
02:13:21,600 --> 02:13:24,440
Speaker 2: It won't affect anything. I don't know if I'm immune.

2447
02:13:24,440 --> 02:13:27,960
Speaker 2: I think I'm just stubborn. And also I'm kind of

2448
02:13:27,960 --> 02:13:29,520
Speaker 2: a I have a little bit of know it all

2449
02:13:29,520 --> 02:13:31,520
Speaker 2: in me, so I don't give a show people say,

2450
02:13:32,760 --> 02:13:33,760
Speaker 2: And I've always been like that.

2451
02:13:34,560 --> 02:13:39,440
Speaker 1: Okay, You've had a lot of success period, as we've mentioned,

2452
02:13:39,480 --> 02:13:45,360
Speaker 1: a lot of success collaboration. Is it purely your talent

2453
02:13:45,600 --> 02:13:49,960
Speaker 1: and resume? Was there something about your personality and interaction

2454
02:13:50,520 --> 02:13:52,800
Speaker 1: that draws people and opportunities to you.

2455
02:13:56,480 --> 02:14:01,240
Speaker 2: I think this is a really interesting question because this

2456
02:14:01,280 --> 02:14:04,680
Speaker 2: is something that tortures me a little bit, honestly. Is

2457
02:14:04,840 --> 02:14:09,000
Speaker 2: I think that, yes, there is something in my work

2458
02:14:09,640 --> 02:14:16,680
Speaker 2: that draws people to me. But I'm also deeply self

2459
02:14:16,720 --> 02:14:21,680
Speaker 2: centered musically and deeply stubborn, and so I think it's

2460
02:14:21,760 --> 02:14:24,440
Speaker 2: not the most pleasant experience to make a record with

2461
02:14:24,520 --> 02:14:27,720
Speaker 2: me because it's like it's kind of my way or

2462
02:14:27,720 --> 02:14:29,760
Speaker 2: the highway, and it's not even my picture on the cover,

2463
02:14:29,920 --> 02:14:32,640
Speaker 2: you know. So I think that as time went on,

2464
02:14:34,680 --> 02:14:38,480
Speaker 2: I found those moments less attractive, like with Elton a Dream,

2465
02:14:38,520 --> 02:14:43,120
Speaker 2: because we're not writing once it's my writing. I have

2466
02:14:43,240 --> 02:14:47,920
Speaker 2: this possessiveness about it, and I feel also, who's going

2467
02:14:48,000 --> 02:14:50,960
Speaker 2: to know better what my music needs than me? Because

2468
02:14:50,960 --> 02:14:56,440
Speaker 2: I wrote it. And back to True Blue, we were

2469
02:14:56,480 --> 02:14:58,440
Speaker 2: making True Blue and Madonna and I were having one

2470
02:14:58,440 --> 02:15:00,680
Speaker 2: of these moments where she wanted to to do something

2471
02:15:00,680 --> 02:15:03,320
Speaker 2: and I was saying no, and the cover had just

2472
02:15:03,400 --> 02:15:06,680
Speaker 2: come from her Brits, that beautiful photo of her, and

2473
02:15:06,720 --> 02:15:08,400
Speaker 2: she held it up and she pointed it at me

2474
02:15:08,440 --> 02:15:12,840
Speaker 2: and she said, whose picture's this? And I'll never forget

2475
02:15:12,880 --> 02:15:15,760
Speaker 2: it because it's like, yeah, you're right, but it doesn't

2476
02:15:15,760 --> 02:15:16,560
Speaker 2: mean it changed me.

2477
02:15:17,200 --> 02:15:20,120
Speaker 1: You know. Okay, if we put on whatever that track

2478
02:15:20,280 --> 02:15:23,920
Speaker 1: is all the years later, will you say, well, maybe

2479
02:15:23,960 --> 02:15:25,800
Speaker 1: she was right. Oh you hear go, No, I would

2480
02:15:25,840 --> 02:15:26,200
Speaker 1: have done it.

2481
02:15:26,240 --> 02:15:28,400
Speaker 2: No, she still sang the wrong note. She still sang

2482
02:15:28,440 --> 02:15:30,120
Speaker 2: the wrong note. It's like, you can't sing that note.

2483
02:15:30,160 --> 02:15:32,280
Speaker 2: She says, where did all these rules come from? Said,

2484
02:15:32,280 --> 02:15:34,880
Speaker 2: I didn't make them, Honeybock made them. Don't look at me.

2485
02:15:35,800 --> 02:15:37,600
Speaker 2: But then you know, you go through these things and

2486
02:15:37,600 --> 02:15:39,040
Speaker 2: she says, no, I'm going to do it, and she

2487
02:15:39,080 --> 02:15:45,520
Speaker 2: sticks this high harmony in, and you know, anybody with

2488
02:15:45,560 --> 02:15:47,360
Speaker 2: a musical air will go what she doing singing the

2489
02:15:47,400 --> 02:15:49,960
Speaker 2: major seventh when there's a dominant seventh chord. It's like

2490
02:15:49,960 --> 02:15:51,960
Speaker 2: it's a half step away. It couldn't be a worse note.

2491
02:15:52,760 --> 02:15:54,680
Speaker 2: But it's like, well, it didn't really seem to matter

2492
02:15:54,720 --> 02:15:59,920
Speaker 2: that much, you know, but makes me in the moment

2493
02:16:00,080 --> 02:16:02,000
Speaker 2: that you know, I'm a bastard in the moment, I

2494
02:16:02,000 --> 02:16:02,920
Speaker 2: can promise.

2495
02:16:02,640 --> 02:16:05,440
Speaker 1: You that's on one side of the board. What I'm

2496
02:16:05,480 --> 02:16:08,560
Speaker 1: saying is forgetting people whose picture is on the cover.

2497
02:16:09,040 --> 02:16:13,920
Speaker 1: Working musicians have to network, have to have a certain

2498
02:16:13,960 --> 02:16:19,880
Speaker 1: possibility to get opportunities. Is that part of your personality?

2499
02:16:20,040 --> 02:16:25,120
Speaker 2: No, it's not, it's not. No, I think, you know, honestly,

2500
02:16:26,800 --> 02:16:27,800
Speaker 2: you're very good at this.

2501
02:16:27,920 --> 02:16:29,440
Speaker 1: By the way, thank you.

2502
02:16:29,440 --> 02:16:32,240
Speaker 2: You are really really fucking good at this. You are.

2503
02:16:34,200 --> 02:16:38,640
Speaker 2: I think that it was always a bit.

2504
02:16:41,200 --> 02:16:41,680
Speaker 1: What is it?

2505
02:16:43,680 --> 02:16:46,119
Speaker 2: I think, I'm just, I'm just I think me making

2506
02:16:46,120 --> 02:16:48,879
Speaker 2: solo records right now is the logical conclusion to this,

2507
02:16:48,959 --> 02:16:50,480
Speaker 2: because I think that's what I want to do the

2508
02:16:50,520 --> 02:16:53,400
Speaker 2: whole time, anyway, you know, And I think if it was,

2509
02:16:53,520 --> 02:16:56,680
Speaker 2: if it was really you know, there were people that

2510
02:16:56,720 --> 02:16:58,920
Speaker 2: I worked with that I thought were brilliant and people

2511
02:16:58,920 --> 02:17:01,160
Speaker 2: that I admired so much, and I felt so lucky

2512
02:17:01,200 --> 02:17:03,640
Speaker 2: to be in a room with Rod Stewart or you know,

2513
02:17:03,800 --> 02:17:08,119
Speaker 2: Robbie Robertson or Elton you know, or Roger or Gilmore.

2514
02:17:08,160 --> 02:17:10,480
Speaker 2: I mean, wow, you know, these are these are the

2515
02:17:10,560 --> 02:17:13,920
Speaker 2: greats of all time, They truly are, and and so

2516
02:17:14,200 --> 02:17:17,480
Speaker 2: how lucky for me. And in those cases when we

2517
02:17:17,480 --> 02:17:21,920
Speaker 2: would collaborate, I felt lucky to be there. But if

2518
02:17:21,959 --> 02:17:26,280
Speaker 2: it wasn't that, it just I always felt a little

2519
02:17:26,280 --> 02:17:30,840
Speaker 2: bit like I was wasting time. I really did. The

2520
02:17:30,879 --> 02:17:32,880
Speaker 2: people that I was working with probably felt that too.

2521
02:17:33,360 --> 02:17:37,320
Speaker 1: You've made a lot of records. There must have been

2522
02:17:37,320 --> 02:17:40,080
Speaker 1: a ton of creative choices. When you made the record

2523
02:17:40,080 --> 02:17:42,600
Speaker 1: with Adam Cohen, you said, I'm in control, it's going

2524
02:17:42,680 --> 02:17:45,680
Speaker 1: to be my way. When you've made records with these

2525
02:17:45,720 --> 02:17:49,720
Speaker 1: other people, and you had done part of the writing,

2526
02:17:49,800 --> 02:17:56,800
Speaker 1: so you're invested, and their opinion was contrary, how stubborn

2527
02:17:56,879 --> 02:17:59,680
Speaker 1: would you be? Would you be worried about the harmony

2528
02:17:59,840 --> 02:18:01,360
Speaker 1: or would you just say this is the way it

2529
02:18:01,400 --> 02:18:01,800
Speaker 1: should be.

2530
02:18:04,360 --> 02:18:11,960
Speaker 2: I think that it's a personality defect. But I think

2531
02:18:12,000 --> 02:18:13,000
Speaker 2: I took it personally.

2532
02:18:13,680 --> 02:18:15,400
Speaker 1: No no, no no no no no no no, I'm

2533
02:18:15,440 --> 02:18:18,760
Speaker 1: saying the other thing. Yes, you took it personally.

2534
02:18:19,440 --> 02:18:21,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I fought it personally. I fought it like

2535
02:18:21,959 --> 02:18:23,360
Speaker 2: it was a personal insult.

2536
02:18:23,879 --> 02:18:26,840
Speaker 1: That's my question. To what degree did you stand up?

2537
02:18:27,320 --> 02:18:29,840
Speaker 1: You're working with these household name artists and you go,

2538
02:18:30,640 --> 02:18:34,160
Speaker 1: you know, you could say very gently, I would do

2539
02:18:34,240 --> 02:18:38,080
Speaker 1: it a different way, or let's try it again whatever.

2540
02:18:38,200 --> 02:18:41,520
Speaker 1: Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. A lot of engineers

2541
02:18:41,560 --> 02:18:44,040
Speaker 1: operate that way. A lot of producers who used to

2542
02:18:44,080 --> 02:18:47,720
Speaker 1: be engineers operator that way. There are some diva producers

2543
02:18:47,760 --> 02:18:51,000
Speaker 1: I know do the opposite, but they're not musicians like you.

2544
02:18:51,840 --> 02:18:56,000
Speaker 1: So would you say, with a stronger tonality, no, we

2545
02:18:56,440 --> 02:18:58,760
Speaker 1: need to do it this way, or would you say

2546
02:18:58,760 --> 02:18:59,840
Speaker 1: it's their record I'll back.

2547
02:19:01,560 --> 02:19:04,279
Speaker 2: It would totally depend on the artist. It would totally

2548
02:19:04,280 --> 02:19:06,360
Speaker 2: depend on the artist. And the other part of that

2549
02:19:06,560 --> 02:19:10,400
Speaker 2: is that I don't remember Elton never doing anything that

2550
02:19:10,440 --> 02:19:13,400
Speaker 2: I questioned, nor did Roger ever do anything I questioned,

2551
02:19:13,400 --> 02:19:15,199
Speaker 2: Nor when I was doing stuff with Jeff Beck, Didty

2552
02:19:15,240 --> 02:19:17,160
Speaker 2: doing it and I questioned. These people don't do things

2553
02:19:17,200 --> 02:19:19,640
Speaker 2: that you question. That's why they are what they are

2554
02:19:20,200 --> 02:19:25,760
Speaker 2: and who they are. And the uh, the thing of

2555
02:19:25,840 --> 02:19:28,960
Speaker 2: working on a pop song and someone who isn't doesn't

2556
02:19:29,000 --> 02:19:31,840
Speaker 2: have the kind of musical palette or whatever you want

2557
02:19:31,840 --> 02:19:36,920
Speaker 2: to call it. I could be really okay with it,

2558
02:19:37,000 --> 02:19:39,240
Speaker 2: and I think you know in the records that I made,

2559
02:19:39,280 --> 02:19:41,720
Speaker 2: it's not like it was a hell hole. But I

2560
02:19:41,760 --> 02:19:44,560
Speaker 2: do know that if there was something that I didn't like,

2561
02:19:44,680 --> 02:19:47,720
Speaker 2: I could be inappropriately brutal to someone who had hired

2562
02:19:47,760 --> 02:19:50,199
Speaker 2: me and was paying me and it was their fucking

2563
02:19:50,200 --> 02:19:53,200
Speaker 2: picture on the cover. And I know that, and I

2564
02:19:53,720 --> 02:19:56,199
Speaker 2: don't think I could have done it any different because

2565
02:19:56,200 --> 02:19:59,320
Speaker 2: it's it's part of what makes my music what it is.

2566
02:20:00,120 --> 02:20:03,199
Speaker 2: You know, it is what it is because I'm invested

2567
02:20:03,240 --> 02:20:07,080
Speaker 2: in it where I'll have a rock fight with you

2568
02:20:07,120 --> 02:20:09,680
Speaker 2: in the parking lot about it. And I think in

2569
02:20:09,720 --> 02:20:12,680
Speaker 2: some of those moments, I think people go, man, you know,

2570
02:20:13,959 --> 02:20:17,840
Speaker 2: lighten up, you know, or whatever it was. But you know,

2571
02:20:18,200 --> 02:20:21,680
Speaker 2: I think some people had found it difficult, found me difficult.

2572
02:20:22,040 --> 02:20:22,680
Speaker 2: I know they did.

2573
02:20:23,440 --> 02:20:25,440
Speaker 1: Speaking of difficult, how did you end up working with

2574
02:20:25,480 --> 02:20:26,000
Speaker 1: Jeff Beck?

2575
02:20:27,480 --> 02:20:30,560
Speaker 2: Just through Roger? You know, Jeff played on Amused to

2576
02:20:30,600 --> 02:20:35,400
Speaker 2: Death and then Jeff and I spent some time together

2577
02:20:35,400 --> 02:20:38,200
Speaker 2: in the studio trying to make a solo record for him,

2578
02:20:38,360 --> 02:20:41,000
Speaker 2: and we did a couple pieces that we wrote together

2579
02:20:41,120 --> 02:20:44,320
Speaker 2: and recorded them, and it just, you know, the times

2580
02:20:44,360 --> 02:20:47,080
Speaker 2: I would bump into Jeff after that, he'd talk about

2581
02:20:47,080 --> 02:20:50,280
Speaker 2: the greatest record we never made because we started it,

2582
02:20:50,320 --> 02:20:53,720
Speaker 2: but it never it never got focused. We never focused it.

2583
02:20:54,520 --> 02:20:56,200
Speaker 2: And I'm not sure I could have done it anyway.

2584
02:20:56,280 --> 02:20:59,720
Speaker 2: I don't know that I that I could, that I

2585
02:20:59,720 --> 02:21:04,119
Speaker 2: could give Jeff what he needed. You know, he's got,

2586
02:21:04,120 --> 02:21:09,600
Speaker 2: he's got, so he had so much more authentic real

2587
02:21:09,680 --> 02:21:11,360
Speaker 2: rock and roll in his blood than I did.

2588
02:21:12,680 --> 02:21:15,600
Speaker 1: You know, well, there's a lot to talk about there,

2589
02:21:15,600 --> 02:21:19,080
Speaker 1: but not today. Patrick. I want to thank you for

2590
02:21:19,160 --> 02:21:22,200
Speaker 1: taking this time to speak to my audience. I loved it,

2591
02:21:22,400 --> 02:21:25,520
Speaker 1: you know, because sometimes you're just getting somebody's story, but

2592
02:21:26,000 --> 02:21:28,960
Speaker 1: you know, when we're talking about records and references, really

2593
02:21:29,040 --> 02:21:32,280
Speaker 1: feel like you're having a conversation. So good luck with

2594
02:21:32,360 --> 02:21:34,680
Speaker 1: a new album. Thanks a lot for talking to me.

2595
02:21:35,800 --> 02:21:38,360
Speaker 2: Thanks boy, it was a pleasure, man, Thank you.

2596
02:21:38,360 --> 02:21:40,039
Speaker 1: You know that was great. A lot of people you

2597
02:21:40,120 --> 02:21:43,040
Speaker 1: sit down and you say, well, you know, I gotta

2598
02:21:43,080 --> 02:21:46,280
Speaker 1: sit here and I gotta cover this. Not with you.

2599
02:21:46,400 --> 02:21:48,280
Speaker 1: It was like certainly, you know, it was like we

2600
02:21:48,280 --> 02:21:50,959
Speaker 1: were talking and we could have been anywhere. We could

2601
02:21:51,000 --> 02:21:52,000
Speaker 1: have been sitting on the couch.

2602
02:21:52,320 --> 02:21:56,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you're you're you're You're really fucking good at

2603
02:21:56,120 --> 02:21:57,640
Speaker 2: this man. I mean, you know, like, I'm talking to

2604
02:21:57,680 --> 02:22:00,800
Speaker 2: a lot of people these days, and and some of

2605
02:22:00,840 --> 02:22:03,880
Speaker 2: them are good, they're good, but you understand what makes

2606
02:22:03,920 --> 02:22:07,960
Speaker 2: this tick from from way in the inside, and so

2607
02:22:08,600 --> 02:22:14,039
Speaker 2: you're pushing into places that are there's real shit in there,

2608
02:22:14,040 --> 02:22:21,480
Speaker 2: there's real stuff buried in there. And you know, I've

2609
02:22:21,560 --> 02:22:23,560
Speaker 2: done this for so long. I've done it for over

2610
02:22:23,600 --> 02:22:27,720
Speaker 2: sixty years, every fucking day, and I do it all day,

2611
02:22:27,760 --> 02:22:29,800
Speaker 2: and I do it for the love of the thing.

2612
02:22:30,800 --> 02:22:33,840
Speaker 2: Hate the music business. You used to love the music

2613
02:22:33,879 --> 02:22:37,520
Speaker 2: business because it felt like it was about music. Now

2614
02:22:37,840 --> 02:22:39,840
Speaker 2: I can't get near it. I don't even you know.

2615
02:22:39,879 --> 02:22:42,440
Speaker 2: I got some young people around, engineers and stuff, and

2616
02:22:42,480 --> 02:22:44,120
Speaker 2: they come in here to help me out, and they

2617
02:22:44,160 --> 02:22:47,320
Speaker 2: go like, this is magic in here. When you're doing

2618
02:22:47,360 --> 02:22:51,400
Speaker 2: something completely different. It's like, really, this is that different

2619
02:22:52,080 --> 02:22:54,039
Speaker 2: that you know you just sit and play something and

2620
02:22:54,080 --> 02:22:56,280
Speaker 2: you record it. It's like, yeah, nobody can even do that.

2621
02:22:57,080 --> 02:23:00,680
Speaker 2: And I think, wow, man, what a shame. And so

2622
02:23:00,760 --> 02:23:03,640
Speaker 2: I think I'm not doing anything I'm doing to try

2623
02:23:03,680 --> 02:23:08,200
Speaker 2: to inspire anybody or show them another way. I'm doing

2624
02:23:08,240 --> 02:23:09,600
Speaker 2: it because it's what I know how to do. And

2625
02:23:09,640 --> 02:23:11,440
Speaker 2: I actually think I'm better at it than I used

2626
02:23:11,480 --> 02:23:11,760
Speaker 2: to be.

2627
02:23:12,400 --> 02:23:12,600
Speaker 1: You know.

2628
02:23:12,720 --> 02:23:15,080
Speaker 2: I think I tempered it and I think the work

2629
02:23:15,120 --> 02:23:16,959
Speaker 2: is good, and I think that that's what I'm here for.

2630
02:23:17,160 --> 02:23:20,080
Speaker 2: I didn't, you know, hide from the other children and

2631
02:23:20,080 --> 02:23:21,800
Speaker 2: play piano when it was five years old because I

2632
02:23:21,840 --> 02:23:24,400
Speaker 2: wanted to be rich and famous and get blowdrops from

2633
02:23:24,480 --> 02:23:28,039
Speaker 2: you know, beach bunnies like, no fucking way. It's like,

2634
02:23:28,800 --> 02:23:31,080
Speaker 2: you know, it was about it was about this thing.

2635
02:23:31,520 --> 02:23:36,080
Speaker 2: And when you and I talked behind the hotel cafe

2636
02:23:36,160 --> 02:23:38,120
Speaker 2: that time, I felt the same way about you, Like

2637
02:23:38,160 --> 02:23:41,840
Speaker 2: you asked the questions about the work and the and

2638
02:23:41,920 --> 02:23:44,760
Speaker 2: you know, because what.

2639
02:23:44,800 --> 02:23:49,200
Speaker 1: Else is there, well, just just talking a little bit

2640
02:23:49,240 --> 02:23:52,320
Speaker 1: angle when you started off with a hotel cafe. I

2641
02:23:52,360 --> 02:23:56,160
Speaker 1: can't tell you how many people I've met, even had conversations,

2642
02:23:56,760 --> 02:24:00,879
Speaker 1: don't remember a thing. So I vividly remember that moment.

2643
02:24:00,879 --> 02:24:02,520
Speaker 1: I could probably put my feet in the same place

2644
02:24:02,560 --> 02:24:05,200
Speaker 1: on the asphalt behind, so it blew my mind.

2645
02:24:05,280 --> 02:24:08,640
Speaker 2: I remember friends that No, I remember it. I remember

2646
02:24:08,680 --> 02:24:08,959
Speaker 2: it too.

2647
02:24:09,440 --> 02:24:09,680
Speaker 1: You know.

2648
02:24:09,959 --> 02:24:11,560
Speaker 2: You were your back was to the building and I

2649
02:24:11,600 --> 02:24:15,120
Speaker 2: was facing Yes, let's see it, you know, and the

2650
02:24:15,160 --> 02:24:17,000
Speaker 2: door was right behind you. I can see the color.

2651
02:24:17,040 --> 02:24:20,120
Speaker 2: I don't know why, but there was something about that

2652
02:24:20,480 --> 02:24:23,680
Speaker 2: and I think, I think possibly. I don't want to

2653
02:24:23,680 --> 02:24:27,480
Speaker 2: get fucking airy fairy here, but I think you have

2654
02:24:27,520 --> 02:24:31,400
Speaker 2: a real affinity for what makes this shit real, and

2655
02:24:31,560 --> 02:24:32,039
Speaker 2: so do I.

2656
02:24:33,080 --> 02:24:36,640
Speaker 1: No, listen, I don't think you can take that to

2657
02:24:36,720 --> 02:24:39,520
Speaker 1: the bank. Occasionally you can capture it and it works,

2658
02:24:39,840 --> 02:24:43,160
Speaker 1: but that's what it's all about.

2659
02:24:42,320 --> 02:24:45,080
Speaker 2: It's nothing there, There is nothing else. I mean, I mean.

2660
02:24:45,080 --> 02:24:47,480
Speaker 1: I remember talking. You know too many people in this

2661
02:24:47,640 --> 02:24:50,360
Speaker 1: You say anything and they'll say, well, look at the billing,

2662
02:24:51,520 --> 02:24:54,640
Speaker 1: look at the grosse. I don't want to say the

2663
02:24:54,640 --> 02:24:58,680
Speaker 1: billing and the gross are wrong the great, but that's

2664
02:24:59,000 --> 02:25:00,279
Speaker 1: not what it's about.

2665
02:25:00,959 --> 02:25:03,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's like you do you remember do

2666
02:25:03,160 --> 02:25:06,520
Speaker 2: you know Jeremy Lubbock? Do you remember that name? Jeremy

2667
02:25:06,560 --> 02:25:07,480
Speaker 2: was a string arranger.

2668
02:25:07,600 --> 02:25:08,200
Speaker 1: No, I don't know.

2669
02:25:08,240 --> 02:25:11,400
Speaker 2: It's probably the probably the greatest string arranger that La

2670
02:25:11,480 --> 02:25:14,160
Speaker 2: ever saw. And he abandoned la he couldn't do it anymore.

2671
02:25:14,720 --> 02:25:17,240
Speaker 2: And he did the string arrangements and the horn arrangements

2672
02:25:17,280 --> 02:25:23,240
Speaker 2: for I'm Breathless and Wow could he write? And we

2673
02:25:23,240 --> 02:25:26,480
Speaker 2: were in the studio working on that thing, and somebody

2674
02:25:26,520 --> 02:25:30,640
Speaker 2: said something about something about the money, and Jeremy said,

2675
02:25:31,000 --> 02:25:33,280
Speaker 2: and McDonald sells a lot of hamburgers, it does not

2676
02:25:33,400 --> 02:25:37,080
Speaker 2: make it hot cuisine exactly. Like that's right. It doesn't

2677
02:25:37,080 --> 02:25:39,000
Speaker 2: fucking matter how much money it makes, it doesn't make

2678
02:25:39,000 --> 02:25:39,400
Speaker 2: it good.

2679
02:25:39,800 --> 02:25:42,480
Speaker 1: Well, the other thing about when you talk about the

2680
02:25:42,560 --> 02:25:45,720
Speaker 1: record you're not going to put out Yeah, you know,

2681
02:25:46,320 --> 02:25:49,120
Speaker 1: you know, when you do great work. That doesn't mean

2682
02:25:49,360 --> 02:25:51,879
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, you do it enough, you know you're

2683
02:25:51,879 --> 02:25:54,640
Speaker 1: never gonna do something bad. But you can't make it

2684
02:25:54,720 --> 02:25:58,520
Speaker 1: eleven every day. But when you make an eleven, you know,

2685
02:25:59,640 --> 02:26:01,640
Speaker 1: and you can also you could listen, you could read

2686
02:26:01,680 --> 02:26:03,800
Speaker 1: or listen to something, and you go, I don't care

2687
02:26:03,840 --> 02:26:07,080
Speaker 1: what anybody else thinks. It's missing something.

2688
02:26:08,120 --> 02:26:11,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, And this, all of this work I listened to

2689
02:26:11,440 --> 02:26:13,760
Speaker 2: the other night because I keep hoping I'm wrong, because

2690
02:26:13,760 --> 02:26:15,920
Speaker 2: there's a lot of work. It was, you know, a

2691
02:26:16,400 --> 02:26:18,440
Speaker 2: year's worth of work or something or ten months or

2692
02:26:18,440 --> 02:26:23,080
Speaker 2: whatever it was. And again, you know, like I have

2693
02:26:23,120 --> 02:26:24,840
Speaker 2: a board behind me on the wall here that I

2694
02:26:24,920 --> 02:26:27,920
Speaker 2: put all my song cards on, and there's nine of

2695
02:26:27,959 --> 02:26:29,800
Speaker 2: them up there right now, which are the nine songs

2696
02:26:29,800 --> 02:26:31,800
Speaker 2: from Love and Occasional War. And I wrote another one

2697
02:26:32,240 --> 02:26:34,280
Speaker 2: called the song that you wrote or the story that

2698
02:26:34,320 --> 02:26:37,000
Speaker 2: you wrote last week that I think will replace something

2699
02:26:37,000 --> 02:26:38,680
Speaker 2: on there. And I don't know what because I like

2700
02:26:38,760 --> 02:26:41,880
Speaker 2: them all, but it's it's pretty high bar. And it's

2701
02:26:41,879 --> 02:26:45,160
Speaker 2: coming from all of this agitation, of all of this

2702
02:26:45,480 --> 02:26:48,560
Speaker 2: promo and talking about career and oh my god, you

2703
02:26:48,600 --> 02:26:51,240
Speaker 2: know all this stuff that I just I don't even

2704
02:26:51,280 --> 02:26:55,200
Speaker 2: like doing it. You know, I'm just interested and now

2705
02:26:55,240 --> 02:26:58,840
Speaker 2: if I can do that. But you know that said

2706
02:26:59,360 --> 02:27:03,160
Speaker 2: those nines, there's twenty five that I wrote to get them,

2707
02:27:03,320 --> 02:27:04,959
Speaker 2: and the other ones no one will ever hear. They

2708
02:27:05,000 --> 02:27:06,200
Speaker 2: will never see the light of day.

2709
02:27:06,280 --> 02:27:10,280
Speaker 1: Wait to what degree is your process changed by working

2710
02:27:10,280 --> 02:27:14,520
Speaker 1: with Leonard? Wow?

2711
02:27:14,560 --> 02:27:16,440
Speaker 2: Did I learn a lot? And I'll tell you where

2712
02:27:16,440 --> 02:27:20,879
Speaker 2: I learned a lot? Is the thing of the lyric

2713
02:27:22,720 --> 02:27:28,920
Speaker 2: being complete. I think I learned what when complete is?

2714
02:27:29,160 --> 02:27:31,720
Speaker 2: I think I know when it's done now, and I

2715
02:27:31,760 --> 02:27:33,800
Speaker 2: don't think I knew before. I know I didn't know

2716
02:27:33,840 --> 02:27:35,680
Speaker 2: before because I listened to my lyrics from all those

2717
02:27:35,760 --> 02:27:38,119
Speaker 2: years ago. It's like, well it's kind of an idea,

2718
02:27:38,200 --> 02:27:39,800
Speaker 2: but you didn't really get it, did you.

2719
02:27:39,840 --> 02:27:42,840
Speaker 1: Well, well, okay, you have X number of songs on

2720
02:27:42,879 --> 02:27:47,280
Speaker 1: the board, and when you replace one with another, it

2721
02:27:47,320 --> 02:27:50,640
Speaker 1: is Is it as simple as that? Or is it

2722
02:27:50,680 --> 02:27:55,280
Speaker 1: because you worked with Leonard that you say there's something

2723
02:27:55,400 --> 02:27:58,680
Speaker 1: beyond and I'm searching for it and therefore I'm willing

2724
02:27:58,720 --> 02:28:00,920
Speaker 1: to work with it keep getting there.

2725
02:28:03,280 --> 02:28:05,960
Speaker 2: I think I think that the when you do a

2726
02:28:06,000 --> 02:28:10,119
Speaker 2: project like this one up on the board, the bar

2727
02:28:11,440 --> 02:28:14,160
Speaker 2: sets itself and then you you move it. You move

2728
02:28:14,200 --> 02:28:17,680
Speaker 2: it there at that spot, and you go under it

2729
02:28:17,720 --> 02:28:24,440
Speaker 2: sometimes and you go above it sometimes. And because I'm

2730
02:28:24,480 --> 02:28:26,800
Speaker 2: almost all of those songs with one exception, and the

2731
02:28:26,800 --> 02:28:31,560
Speaker 2: fucking song tortured me. Their lyric first, their lyric first songs.

2732
02:28:32,040 --> 02:28:37,440
Speaker 2: So you know, here's the lyric, right, this is for,

2733
02:28:37,640 --> 02:28:40,000
Speaker 2: this is for at the end of the day, and

2734
02:28:40,040 --> 02:28:44,240
Speaker 2: this is the one that's about Leonard. And this lyric

2735
02:28:44,320 --> 02:28:47,240
Speaker 2: didn't take me long because there's a narrative that follows

2736
02:28:47,240 --> 02:28:51,760
Speaker 2: a story about him that I knew, and I don't

2737
02:28:51,800 --> 02:28:55,480
Speaker 2: think I changed almost anything. But then there's those where

2738
02:28:55,520 --> 02:28:57,360
Speaker 2: you find yourself changing him to the point where you

2739
02:28:57,360 --> 02:29:00,320
Speaker 2: don't recognize him anymore. And then that means you take

2740
02:29:00,360 --> 02:29:01,760
Speaker 2: them up back and shoot him in the head and

2741
02:29:01,760 --> 02:29:03,280
Speaker 2: they fall in the pond, and that's the end of it.

2742
02:29:04,640 --> 02:29:08,279
Speaker 1: I will say. You know, people talk about the process

2743
02:29:08,280 --> 02:29:11,440
Speaker 1: where when it comes out just like that, like you're

2744
02:29:11,520 --> 02:29:14,120
Speaker 1: channeling it, that's always the best stuff.

2745
02:29:14,560 --> 02:29:17,480
Speaker 2: It's always the best. It's right, it really is. And

2746
02:29:18,680 --> 02:29:21,960
Speaker 2: it's the same with the music, you know, like the

2747
02:29:21,959 --> 02:29:24,440
Speaker 2: the thing of sitting at the piano and writing something

2748
02:29:24,840 --> 02:29:28,720
Speaker 2: or playing something or whatever it is. You know you

2749
02:29:28,840 --> 02:29:30,760
Speaker 2: know right away when it when it means something. I mean,

2750
02:29:30,800 --> 02:29:32,680
Speaker 2: I have a I have a little thing. I'll show

2751
02:29:32,720 --> 02:29:36,240
Speaker 2: you this when I when I'm when I teach. I

2752
02:29:36,320 --> 02:29:39,560
Speaker 2: used to do some songwriting classes, and I'd like to

2753
02:29:39,600 --> 02:29:41,920
Speaker 2: do some more. But one of the things I would

2754
02:29:41,920 --> 02:29:43,600
Speaker 2: always do is I'd ask the class. I'd say, do

2755
02:29:43,640 --> 02:29:48,240
Speaker 2: you know what this is? And you know, it's like no,

2756
02:29:48,320 --> 02:29:51,560
Speaker 2: And people with pitch would say it's for E'SE. I'd say, well, no,

2757
02:29:52,680 --> 02:29:54,760
Speaker 2: what is that? I go nothing. I'd say, well, you

2758
02:29:54,800 --> 02:30:00,800
Speaker 2: know what, let's try that. Let's change one note. It's like, oh,

2759
02:30:00,840 --> 02:30:05,000
Speaker 2: it's Beethoven's fifteen. It's like, so the most famous motif

2760
02:30:05,320 --> 02:30:09,360
Speaker 2: in all of fucking human history is made from one note.

2761
02:30:10,720 --> 02:30:14,199
Speaker 2: That's it. It's one note that distinguishes it from nothing

2762
02:30:14,640 --> 02:30:18,360
Speaker 2: to the most recognizable thing there is. So if you

2763
02:30:18,480 --> 02:30:21,120
Speaker 2: know that that's the way this works, you have a

2764
02:30:21,120 --> 02:30:24,760
Speaker 2: different quest that you're on, you know what I mean, Like,

2765
02:30:24,840 --> 02:30:27,360
Speaker 2: that's all it takes. It just takes that one thing

2766
02:30:28,240 --> 02:30:32,400
Speaker 2: that somehow sets your sets your mind. And I'm fairly

2767
02:30:32,440 --> 02:30:35,520
Speaker 2: certain that Beethoven had worked out at that point that

2768
02:30:35,520 --> 02:30:38,320
Speaker 2: that's all it took. It just you just need you

2769
02:30:38,400 --> 02:30:40,080
Speaker 2: just need that one shift. It just has to be

2770
02:30:40,120 --> 02:30:40,560
Speaker 2: the right one.

2771
02:30:40,560 --> 02:30:42,760
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it reminds me of something my psychiatrist

2772
02:30:42,760 --> 02:30:47,840
Speaker 1: says goes, sometimes you change one little thing and it

2773
02:30:47,920 --> 02:30:51,480
Speaker 1: changes the whole picture. Yeah, it's like the same thing.

2774
02:30:51,920 --> 02:30:54,200
Speaker 1: It's like you feel your stock and you're looking for

2775
02:30:54,240 --> 02:30:58,800
Speaker 1: big changes and one little thing it sets it going.

2776
02:30:58,680 --> 02:31:01,680
Speaker 2: And you're there. And I mean and sometimes it's especially

2777
02:31:01,760 --> 02:31:05,920
Speaker 2: in music, it can be very very very strange what happens.

2778
02:31:05,920 --> 02:31:08,440
Speaker 2: Because I'll i'll write something and i'll write a chord

2779
02:31:08,520 --> 02:31:10,960
Speaker 2: chart and I'll forget about it, like just something I

2780
02:31:11,040 --> 02:31:13,720
Speaker 2: do that didn't mean anything, and I'll write it out

2781
02:31:13,920 --> 02:31:16,120
Speaker 2: and I'll come and look at it and I'll start

2782
02:31:16,160 --> 02:31:19,360
Speaker 2: playing it, but there's no indication as to what it was.

2783
02:31:20,280 --> 02:31:24,080
Speaker 2: There's no tempo, there's no feel, there's no time signature,

2784
02:31:24,320 --> 02:31:27,960
Speaker 2: there's no nothing. And I start rolling around with this

2785
02:31:27,959 --> 02:31:30,320
Speaker 2: thing that's on a page, sitting on the piano, and

2786
02:31:30,360 --> 02:31:34,320
Speaker 2: it's like, wow, this is really interesting. And I realized

2787
02:31:34,360 --> 02:31:37,279
Speaker 2: that what I had written, i'd written, say, for example,

2788
02:31:37,320 --> 02:31:40,600
Speaker 2: in four to four, right, so just basic four four,

2789
02:31:41,040 --> 02:31:43,400
Speaker 2: and now for whatever reason, I'm feeling it in six

2790
02:31:43,920 --> 02:31:46,640
Speaker 2: or I'm feeling it in three, and now it has

2791
02:31:46,720 --> 02:31:50,120
Speaker 2: something and it's like well, why didn't have something before.

2792
02:31:50,440 --> 02:31:52,680
Speaker 2: It's like it didn't have something before because everything was

2793
02:31:52,760 --> 02:31:56,520
Speaker 2: one quarter note too long. The interest only happens when

2794
02:31:56,560 --> 02:32:00,000
Speaker 2: you condense it, you know, And that kind of discuss

2795
02:32:00,000 --> 02:32:03,320
Speaker 2: every is more interesting to me than being famous in

2796
02:32:03,360 --> 02:32:04,199
Speaker 2: the music business.

2797
02:32:05,600 --> 02:32:05,800
Speaker 1: You know.

2798
02:32:06,040 --> 02:32:07,760
Speaker 2: Fuck the music Fuck the music business.

2799
02:32:07,840 --> 02:32:10,680
Speaker 1: You know. Well, I guess going to an analogous thing.

2800
02:32:11,600 --> 02:32:14,519
Speaker 1: I don't know how they make these records with seventeen

2801
02:32:14,600 --> 02:32:21,400
Speaker 1: writers and twenty remixers because you're that acids, you know. Yeah,

2802
02:32:21,440 --> 02:32:24,800
Speaker 1: some of the greatest records of all time have mistakes,

2803
02:32:25,080 --> 02:32:28,040
Speaker 1: but they contain something which is indescribable.

2804
02:32:29,080 --> 02:32:32,120
Speaker 2: Well, also, this the thing about all of this stuff,

2805
02:32:32,760 --> 02:32:36,360
Speaker 2: and I stay away from the subject. But if you

2806
02:32:36,520 --> 02:32:41,119
Speaker 2: look at what you're hearing now, and because people aren't musicians,

2807
02:32:41,160 --> 02:32:44,680
Speaker 2: they don't know necessarily what they're hearing. There's four chords

2808
02:32:46,000 --> 02:32:49,640
Speaker 2: and sometimes three, and that's it. And it's the same

2809
02:32:50,040 --> 02:32:54,200
Speaker 2: on every song, same chords, same chord progression, and all

2810
02:32:54,240 --> 02:32:56,840
Speaker 2: the drum beats are made by machines, all the parts

2811
02:32:56,840 --> 02:32:59,400
Speaker 2: are quantized, made on a computer, all the vocals are

2812
02:32:59,400 --> 02:33:01,800
Speaker 2: pitched to the to death. None of these things are

2813
02:33:01,800 --> 02:33:05,360
Speaker 2: being sung naturally, So what exactly are you listening to

2814
02:33:07,959 --> 02:33:10,560
Speaker 2: what is it that you're hearing? You know? So if

2815
02:33:10,560 --> 02:33:13,200
Speaker 2: you're gonna if you're going to just do anything, so

2816
02:33:13,240 --> 02:33:14,680
Speaker 2: we just just play a little.

2817
02:33:14,440 --> 02:33:26,359
Speaker 3: Bit so little improvised chord progression.

2818
02:33:27,000 --> 02:33:30,240
Speaker 2: If you took those chords and you quantize them, and

2819
02:33:30,280 --> 02:33:32,760
Speaker 2: you put them all those block chords, and you put

2820
02:33:32,800 --> 02:33:34,680
Speaker 2: them right on the beat, it wouldn't mean a fucking thing.

2821
02:33:35,720 --> 02:33:56,400
Speaker 2: But if you can put something in it, and I

2822
02:33:56,440 --> 02:33:58,960
Speaker 2: can just go and go and go all day like that,

2823
02:33:58,959 --> 02:34:02,120
Speaker 2: that's what I do. And that's where the improvisation comes in.

2824
02:34:02,160 --> 02:34:06,200
Speaker 2: But if you can't feel it, why are you doing it?

2825
02:34:07,760 --> 02:34:10,600
Speaker 1: Well, I I say, I go the other way if

2826
02:34:10,600 --> 02:34:13,520
Speaker 1: you could, if you squeeze all the humanity out of

2827
02:34:13,520 --> 02:34:14,600
Speaker 1: the record, what have you got?

2828
02:34:15,600 --> 02:34:20,520
Speaker 2: That's right, there's nothing left. There's nothing left, nothing, you know.

2829
02:34:20,720 --> 02:34:23,360
Speaker 2: And if you take something simple, you know, like the

2830
02:34:23,440 --> 02:34:25,119
Speaker 2: chord progression of the day is it's.

2831
02:34:24,959 --> 02:34:28,720
Speaker 1: This, that's it.

2832
02:34:28,720 --> 02:34:29,680
Speaker 2: It's every song and.

2833
02:34:29,600 --> 02:34:36,240
Speaker 3: It's in this order or it's in this order, or

2834
02:34:36,240 --> 02:34:37,040
Speaker 3: it's in this order.

2835
02:34:38,720 --> 02:34:39,720
Speaker 1: They're all the same chords.

2836
02:34:39,720 --> 02:34:43,720
Speaker 2: There's four chords and everybody does them. So if you say,

2837
02:34:43,800 --> 02:34:45,920
Speaker 2: well that's all you get, well you can say okay,

2838
02:34:45,959 --> 02:35:08,120
Speaker 2: let's use them and go first chord, second chord. So

2839
02:35:08,280 --> 02:35:11,880
Speaker 2: that's the same progression everyone's using. But there's harmony in it,

2840
02:35:12,040 --> 02:35:15,760
Speaker 2: there's melody in it, and there's a musical knowledge. Without

2841
02:35:15,840 --> 02:35:19,440
Speaker 2: musical knowledge, what are you doing? You know, It's like

2842
02:35:19,520 --> 02:35:23,760
Speaker 2: it's like a conversation. We only know four words and

2843
02:35:24,120 --> 02:35:26,640
Speaker 2: that's what we're hearing it. It's heartbreaking, but it's you.

2844
02:35:26,600 --> 02:35:51,080
Speaker 1: Know, until next time. This is Bob Left six m