1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: I'm Jason Vlam, host of Roefel Conviction, but this week, 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: instead of hearing me, I've invited a legitimate genius from 3 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: the legal world to bring their knowledge and expertise to 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: the conversation as guest host here at Rofel Conviction, we 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: believe that sharing the stories of the incarcerated innocent can 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: create real change in the world, even beyond what these 7 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: real life legal superheroes do every day. 8 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 2: In the middle of one November night in nineteen ninety five, 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 2: there was an explosion in Brooklyn, New York. Nineteen different 10 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 2: people called nine to one one to report what they 11 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 2: heard and what they saw. They reported seeing two men 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 2: running up to a subway token booth on Kingston Avenue. 13 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 2: They poured gasoline into the coinslot and threatened the attendant 14 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 2: with a match. Almost immediately, the toll booth burst into flames. 15 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 2: The attendant was a man named Harry Kaufman, and as 16 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 2: the tollbooth caught on fire, he did too. Harry was 17 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 2: able to run up the street, where passers by helped 18 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 2: extinguish the flames on his body. More than eighty percent 19 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 2: of his body was badly burned. He died a few 20 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 2: weeks later, the crime made headlines in New York and 21 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 2: around the country. Prominent politicians like Senator Bob Dole and 22 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 2: Mayor Rudy Giuliani mentioned the case in their tough on 23 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 2: crime rhetoric. Pressure was mounting for the police to find 24 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 2: the attackers. With little physical evidence and no clear suspects, 25 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 2: Detective Lewis Scarcella turned to one of his favorite tactics, 26 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 2: coercing witnesses. One of the nine to one to one callers, 27 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 2: James Irons, was forced to give a false confession and 28 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 2: to name two more accomplices. Thomas Malik and Vincent Ellerby, 29 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 2: were both detained and interrogated, and both eventually gave false 30 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 2: confessions under pressure. After an investigation and a trial riddled 31 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 2: with lies and misconduct, Thomas Malie and Vincent Ellerbee were 32 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 2: convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to twenty five 33 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: years to life. This is Wrongful Conviction. Hi, everybody, it's 34 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 2: Laura and I writer. I am so glad to be 35 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: here guest hosting another episode of Wrongful Conviction. I'm the 36 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 2: co director of the Center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern University, 37 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 2: and you might also recognize my voice from another series 38 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 2: I co hosted on this podcast feed False Confessions. Today, 39 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 2: I'm here with a real fighter, a real survivor of 40 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 2: false confessions, Vincent Ellerby Vince, you've endured more than any 41 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 2: human should be asked to endure. I am so honored 42 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 2: to get a chance to talk to you today. Do 43 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 2: you want to introduce yourself? 44 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 3: Hi, my name Vincent, I'll be I did twenty four years, 45 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 3: eleven months in twenty five days. I had nothing to 46 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 3: do it. I was forced to take the way for crime. 47 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 3: I had nothing to do it. 48 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 4: And I'm Ron Coopy. I was the lawyer for Vince's 49 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 4: co defendant way back in the nineties, and they were 50 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 4: tried together, although in front of separate juries. 51 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 2: Ron, We're so glad to have you here, and Vince, 52 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 2: I am so glad you said every one of those days, 53 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 2: because every one of those days, hours and minutes counts. 54 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 2: But Ron, I'm going to start out by asking you 55 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: what was New York City like in the nineteen nineties 56 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 2: in terms of crime and how people were talking about 57 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 2: crime back then. 58 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 4: By nineteen ninety five, we were pretty much in our 59 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 4: tenth year of the crack epidemic, which saw a dramatic 60 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 4: increase in crime and a wildly dramatic increase in punitive 61 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 4: law enforcement. It was a time in which the super 62 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 4: predator theory was gained and had gained tremendous currency in 63 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 4: legal circles and sociological circles. It was coined by a 64 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 4: sociologist who later attracted it, but the damage had been done. 65 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 4: The theory was there was a whole generation of black 66 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 4: youth growing off without fathers, living on the streets, who 67 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 4: were committing crimes. There was never any consequence to their crimes. 68 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 4: They would always get away with crime after crime after crime, 69 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 4: and as a result, they would become super predators. These 70 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 4: are people who were so feral and so consciousless they 71 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 4: would go out and do anything to anybody without any empathy, compassion, 72 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 4: or mercy. And we were in the process of creating 73 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 4: a whole generation of these people, and the only thing 74 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 4: that we could do about it as a society was 75 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 4: to incarcerate them forever. 76 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: It's one of the most toxic theories out there, right, 77 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 2: I mean, we know this is the theory that led 78 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 2: to the wrongful conviction of the Central Park five, for example, 79 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 2: now called the Exonerated five. Few years before this happened 80 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 2: to Vince. And there are so many other cases around 81 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 2: the country that were driven by the super predator myth. 82 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: Right here in Chicago, the Dixmore five, the Anglewood four, 83 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 2: the Marquette Park four, the Uptown seven. These numbers just 84 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: keep mounting and mounting and mounting. And Vince's case in 85 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 2: particular is a horrific example of these racist tropes being 86 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 2: used to incarcerate black kids, Black male children in particular. 87 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 2: So tell us how this toxic brew of racist myths 88 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:32,559 Speaker 2: showed up in this case. 89 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 4: So on November twenty sixth, nineteen ninety five, outside of 90 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 4: a token booth in Brooklyn, two people two people, not three, 91 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 4: and this will become important later on in the story. 92 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 4: Two people went to that token booth. One of them 93 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 4: was armed with a thirty caliber carbine a rifle. The 94 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 4: other had a bottle with gasoline in it. They were 95 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 4: trying to rob the token boos. The token booth clerk, 96 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 4: Harry Kaufmann, refused to give up the money and he 97 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 4: was behind bulletproof glass, and the perpetrators poured gasoline into 98 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 4: the slot. According to the prosecution, they then set it 99 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 4: on fire. The token booth exploded. It blew up the booth, 100 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 4: it blew up the money, and it burned up Harry Kaufman, 101 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 4: and he had third degree burns over most of his body. 102 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 4: And he lingered in the burn unit, agonizing day after 103 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 4: agonizing day until I think December tenth he died. It 104 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 4: was one of those horrific crimes that still made the 105 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 4: headlines in New York even though crime overall actually had 106 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 4: dropped as the crack epidemic wayne. But it was still 107 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 4: one of those incredibly high profile crimes that people used 108 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 4: to illustrate why you can no longer live in New 109 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 4: York City. Our mayor at the time, a guy better 110 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 4: known to this audience in his latter incarnation as a 111 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 4: Trump apologist. Mayor Rudy Giuliani, for reasons still unclear, noted 112 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 4: that the movie Money Train had just come out, and 113 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 4: he claimed, utterly without evidence, that this particular robbery murder 114 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 4: had been inspired by the movie Money Train. So it 115 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 4: was a horrific crime, and everybody agreed it was a 116 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 4: horrific crime, of course, made more so by the fableism 117 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 4: of our mayor. 118 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 2: What evidence did investigators begin to look into? What leads 119 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: do they have to go on. 120 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 4: The problem was they had no suspects. There were no 121 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 4: fingerprints at the scene, the firearm couldn't be traced. This 122 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 4: was before the days when there were cameras everywhere and 123 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 4: everybody had a cell phone. There were no cell phone towers. 124 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 4: There was absolutely no evidence that the cops had to 125 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 4: give them a lead to anybody. So when nobody's a suspect, 126 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 4: everybody becomes a suspect. Now that night, that night, nineteen 127 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 4: people called nine to one one to report an explosion 128 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 4: in the subway station. One of those people was a 129 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 4: guy named James Irons, and he was in his mom's apartment. 130 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 4: He called up as well. Later his mom got on 131 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 4: the phone. And this is noteworthy because James Irons sounded 132 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 4: normal on the phone. That is, obviously he was paniced 133 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 4: something horrible. It just happened, but it just seemed like 134 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 4: another nine to one one caller. 135 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 2: So I want to take a minute and just ask 136 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 2: you to tell us a little bit about the cops 137 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 2: who ended up getting assigned to this investigation. They were 138 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 2: out of the seventy ninth Precinct. 139 00:08:58,520 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 4: Right. 140 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 2: Stephen Camille of the Brooklyn North Homicide Squad was lead 141 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 2: on this case. And he was assisted by Lewis Scarcella, 142 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: which is a name that listeners of this podcast will remember. 143 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 2: Can you give us a little bit of background here. 144 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 4: Now, Disgrace. Detective Lewis Scarcella and his partner Stephen Camill 145 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 4: were known as Batman and Robin, and Scarcella was very 146 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 4: much Batman. Whatever the lead was, whoever the lead detective 147 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 4: was named, whether it was Camille or Murphy or O'Reilly 148 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 4: or Derita or O'Toole, it was Scarcella who was actually 149 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 4: in charge. He led a homicide task for us throughout 150 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 4: Brooklyn that had a roving commission to stick their nose 151 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 4: in any homicide they wished. And the amazing thing about 152 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 4: Detective Scarcella, and the reason he received such adulation within 153 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 4: the police department and the DA's office was he got 154 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 4: witnesses and he got confess sessions, even in cases where 155 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 4: there appeared to be no witnesses, and even in cases 156 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 4: where there appeared to be no suspects. He was known 157 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 4: as the closer as well, because he will close this case. 158 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 4: At this point, there's close to I think two dozen 159 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 4: wrongful conviction cases attributed to Scarcella. I think at this 160 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 4: count eighteen have been exonerated. There are still some cases 161 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 4: in the pipeline that may or may not result in exonerations. 162 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 4: Out of ninety trials, ninety homicide trials that he. 163 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 2: Works, it's unbelievable. It sounds like he's been responsible for 164 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 2: so many lost centuries. It's mind blowing. 165 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 4: He's been responsible for lost millennia of black life. If 166 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 4: you add all those years together, it's not going to 167 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 4: be in the hundreds at this point, pretty sure it's 168 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 4: going to be in the thousands. And he didn't have 169 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 4: any suspects either. So when you have case like this 170 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 4: with no suspects, kind of everybody's a suspect. So what 171 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 4: you do is you go out and you take every snitch, 172 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 4: every informant, every person on the street that you know of, 173 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 4: and you basically beat the crap out of them. So 174 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 4: they go back to the nine one one calls. I 175 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 4: don't know the television theory the criminal always returns to 176 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 4: the scene of the crime, and maybe one of the 177 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 4: nine to one one callers actually committed the crime, right, 178 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 4: So so footnote here. You know you're told if you 179 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 4: see something, say something. The lesson of this case, if 180 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 4: you see something and you say something, depending on who 181 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 4: you are, you may end up getting convicted for what 182 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 4: you saw and said. 183 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: Because one of those good Samaritans who called nine one one, 184 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 2: who tried to help out was this kid, eighteen year 185 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 2: old James Irons. But here's the thing, right, if he 186 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 2: did the crime and then called nine one one from 187 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 2: his home, he would have had to run really really 188 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 2: fast in order to get home and call nine to 189 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 2: one one when their call lugs say he did. He 190 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 2: would have been out of breath on that nine one 191 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 2: one call, and he wasn't. That just doesn't make sense. 192 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 4: So right there, right there, if you were paying attention, 193 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 4: which nobody was, you would have had your doubts. Anyway, 194 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 4: Scarcel and Camille bring him in and he gives a confession. 195 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 4: He gives a full confession. The confession itself is riddled 196 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 4: with things that are completely untrue, and he starts to 197 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 4: name people that he was with, he places himself as 198 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 4: the look at. 199 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:38,559 Speaker 3: So the way this. 200 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 2: Works in interrogations, right, is that when you've got a 201 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 2: group of people that you want to turn into suspects, 202 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 2: you bring one of them in and you accuse that 203 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 2: person of being there, but you say, hey, I'm going 204 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 2: to cut you a deal. You were probably the lookouts, 205 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 2: You probably weren't an active participant, and things will go 206 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 2: easier for you if you just tell us a story 207 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 2: where you were the lookout and you say, some other 208 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 2: guys do it. 209 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 5: Right. 210 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 2: You see this over and over and over again in 211 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 2: all these cases around the country involving multiple defendants, all 212 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 2: of whom eventually falsely confessed to the same crime. 213 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 4: Right, and they get people to say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, 214 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 4: I knew there was going to be a robbery, but 215 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 4: I know nothing about a murder. And the guy thinks 216 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 4: he's getting Okay, I'll do time for the robbery. Lo 217 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 4: and behold, he just confessed to fell any murder. Or yeah, 218 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 4: you were just a lookout. They just asked you to 219 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 4: look out while they went in and did something. Yeah yeah, 220 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 4: I was just like making sure nobody came down. I 221 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 4: didn't have a weapon. Boom, You've just confessed again to 222 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 4: acting in concert in a murder. Very very common, and 223 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 4: it's one of the flashing yellow lights when you see 224 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 4: it today. 225 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 2: Exactly, it's a hallmark of a false confession. So here 226 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 2: you've got the idea that irons would just be a 227 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 2: lookout the details of his story aren't matching up with 228 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 2: the facts right, the number of people, the guns, getting 229 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 2: things wildly off. But he does put some names forward. 230 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 4: He does. He among other names he puts in are 231 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 4: Vincent Lerby and Thomas Mulwake. 232 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 2: So, Vince Ron and I just spoke at length about 233 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 2: your hometown, Brooklyn, New York, and the horrible crime that 234 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: happened there in November nineteen ninety five. Vince, I want 235 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 2: to ask you, what was it like to realize all 236 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 2: of a sudden that you were caught up in this 237 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: case and you were facing these charges. 238 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 3: When I went to Rackens Island, and I didn't really 239 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 3: have enough time to really sit back and dewelo on 240 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 3: the case, because you know, you're walking into Rackings Island, 241 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 3: you know, you got to worry about the phone, making 242 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 3: sure that nobody's taking nothing from me. So in my mind, 243 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 3: I just blanked it. I just blocked it all out. 244 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 3: I just put all my faith for my lawyer, because 245 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 3: I said to myself, it's no way possible that they're 246 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 3: gonna find me guilty. 247 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 5: It's impossible. No matter what, it's impossible, no. 248 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 3: Matter their confessions, They're gonna see everything it's a lie. 249 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 3: It's mathematically impossible for you not to see it. A 250 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 3: blind man can see it. 251 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 2: You were in like short term survival mode, right, like 252 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 2: this is gonna be over because they're gonna see I'm innocent. 253 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's just out here they say this is 254 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 3: a normal environment, but when you get it locked up, 255 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 3: that's an abnormal environment. 256 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 5: So you got to adjust to that. 257 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 3: I just put my faith for my lawyer, and I 258 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 3: put my faith for my cole defending because he already 259 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 3: knew the law. 260 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 5: So for me, it was just I was just in 261 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 5: survival mode. 262 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 2: Survival mode in a Rikers in the nineties. It's no joke. 263 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 5: No, you gotta make adjustments real fast. 264 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 2: And there's somebody else in Rikers at the time, right, 265 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 2: somebody who ended up giving police what he said was 266 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 2: information about your case. 267 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, rakuon Shabazz, Yeah, they called him ice Pick Marlin. 268 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 3: I met him, I knew him for all the three days, 269 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 3: and I'm not. 270 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 5: Gonna live to me when we went to trial. 271 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 3: We were sitting there and we're on trial, so I 272 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 3: never knew him as Rayquoron Shabas. I only evenew him 273 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 3: as Marlin show as we sitting there. When the DA, 274 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 3: I mean, the DA calls. 275 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 5: Their next witness. 276 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 3: They say, Rake Won Shabazz and I took and looked 277 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 3: at my coat offending, and he put his head down, 278 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 3: so I tapped him. 279 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 5: I'm like, what's up? And he shook his head like. 280 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 3: So I'm saying to myself like, okay, who And the 281 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 3: door opened up and he come out. He got this 282 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 3: jean suit on, looking fly and in my mind I'm saying, 283 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 3: what is he doing here? And he get on the 284 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 3: stand and he get to proceed in telling him how 285 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 3: time he choled him what we did, and how I 286 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 3: chold him what we did, and that I was in 287 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 3: one upper with him for like three months. And I'm 288 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 3: saying to myself, like, they got records that will show 289 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 3: you how long I was up there. So when the 290 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 3: when when Ron and George's questioning the guy and you 291 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 3: just you just you just see you see it. 292 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 5: Then they brought up his past. 293 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 3: That's when I found thought about we wasn't the first 294 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 3: individuals he did this too. 295 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 5: In my mind, I know I'm coming home now. 296 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 2: So you're there, you're being tried with Tommy, right, you're 297 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 2: being tried together separate juries but you're being tried together, 298 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 2: and Shabaz comes up and says that you confessed again 299 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 2: to him, and you must be sitting there going I'm 300 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 2: going home because this guy's crazy. 301 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 3: When you look at everything, from every witness that they 302 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 3: had to, all the confessions to everything, if you just 303 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 3: look at it, it's not a jury in the world. 304 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 3: It's not a jury in the universe that's going to 305 00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 3: convict the money's crime. 306 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 2: Ron, Can you give us a rundown of this trial? 307 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 2: How was this case with all these holes, these confessions 308 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 2: that are obviously wrong, How does it result in these convictions? 309 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 4: This was really before the time there was much science 310 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 4: available on the issue of false confessions. Some people had 311 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 4: started work on it, Saul cass and I think had 312 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 4: been doing it for a few years. But the idea 313 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 4: of calling a false confession expert, that just was not 314 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 4: an idea that existed in New York criminal trial practice 315 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 4: at the time. And Ray Kwan Shabab's I actually did 316 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 4: one of these sort of bush league lawyer things. I 317 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 4: took his criminal record, which at that time was written 318 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 4: on paper, and I taped all of the sheets together, 319 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 4: and as I approached him, I let the sheets unspooled 320 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 4: as they did, and I handed him the document, which 321 00:18:58,040 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 4: at this point stretched all the way back to the 322 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 4: defense table, and I asked him if he recognized it, 323 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 4: and he said, yes, it's his criminal record. I knew 324 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 4: that he had done this twice before, and I considered 325 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,719 Speaker 4: him to be a so called professional informant. He worked 326 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 4: for the DA's office, not regularly, but whenever he needed to. 327 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 4: Whenever he got in a jam, he would cook up 328 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 4: some sort of plot, some confession, some conspiracy, and go 329 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 4: to the DA's office and trade it for lighter treatment. 330 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 4: The DA's office admitted that, yes, he had testified once 331 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 4: in Brooklyn, and yes he had testified once in Queen's. 332 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 4: Judge France's xavier A Gito, a name which should also 333 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 4: be familiar to your listeners because he presided over many 334 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 4: of these wrongful convictions, said two times isn't enough to 335 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 4: make him a professional witness, and they let him testify. 336 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 4: What we did not know, but the Brooklyn DA's office 337 00:19:55,000 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 4: certainly knew, was that in the Brooklyn case which preced this, 338 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 4: he had testified that he was a professional liar. He 339 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 4: was asked, you lie for a living, don't you, mister Shabaz, 340 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 4: and he said, yes, it's insane. 341 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 2: I mean when you think about the way that this 342 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 2: playing field was stacked, right, it stacked from the moment 343 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 2: that a teenager walks into the interrogation room alone, without 344 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 2: a parent, without a lawyer, without any clue about what's 345 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 2: facing him, and a trial that all just continues with 346 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 2: lies and concealments. Vince, I want to ask you if 347 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 2: you'll take us back to that moment. I mean, this 348 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 2: is when the wheels really come off. Right. You've been 349 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 2: sitting at this trial. You've been telling yourself, I just 350 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 2: have to make it to the acquittal. I just have 351 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 2: to make it to the moment when the jury realizes 352 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 2: that this entire situation is constructed bullshit. 353 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 3: Well, when they at the crows and arguments, they came 354 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 3: back with di verdict, little fat thing it was, and 355 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 3: I don't think we probably wasn't even downstairs an hour 356 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 3: something like that. 357 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 5: They called us back upstairs. 358 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 3: I remember sitting down and I'm saying to myself. 359 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,719 Speaker 5: All right, I'm about to slide up out of here. 360 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 5: It's over. 361 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 3: And they said, we find the defender's guilty on all chargers, 362 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 3: so quick fast. I did a calculation in my head 363 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 3: how old I be when I go to the board. 364 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 3: I said I'd be forty two years old, said I'd 365 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 3: be an old man. My daughter wasn't even born yet, 366 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 3: her mother was six months pregnant. But it really didn't 367 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 3: hit me until I went back to get sentenced, because 368 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 3: even then I still thought they might have made a mistake, 369 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 3: might be a chance. But I think the one good 370 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 3: day about that sentence. That day I wore regular clothes, jeans, 371 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 3: sweating sneakers, and my col defendant, that's the only thing 372 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 3: that made me smile that day. He walked into the 373 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 3: court room, and to this day, I don't know where 374 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 3: he got it from, but he had on a lime 375 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 3: green suit, a lime green suit, and I'm looking at 376 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 3: him and I'm saying to myself, this guy can't be serious. 377 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 3: They're about to give us twenty five years and you 378 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 3: walk in here with a lime green SUITO. And I 379 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 3: remember when I was taking me out the courtroom, I 380 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 3: started singing Tupac, And somehow when I went to the board, 381 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 3: somehow it changed for me singing Tupac to me cursing 382 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 3: the judge out the parole board. When I went to 383 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 3: the board, asked. They asked me, did I curse the 384 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 3: judge out? I said, no, I didn't curse the judge. Job, 385 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 3: I said, I read a statement that my mother wrote 386 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 3: for me, I said, And when I walked out, I 387 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 3: was singing Tupac. I said, I don't know how y'all 388 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 3: got that, but it really didn't hit me til I 389 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 3: got downstate that I wasn't going home for a long time. 390 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 2: How did you survive all those years in prison? 391 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 3: Fear y'all understand something. 392 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 5: It is island. 393 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 3: It's different from the penitentiary, and you hear all the 394 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 3: Harvard stories about the penitentiary. When I get downstairs, the 395 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 3: old timer that I ran into, he asked me, did 396 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 3: I want to. 397 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 5: Do a smooth bed? And I said yeah. He said, okay, 398 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 5: this is what you do. 399 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 3: He said, for the first five years in your bed, 400 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 3: you put in major work. I don't care if somebody 401 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 3: owe you a stamp, if they don't have your money, 402 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 3: when they say they gonna have it, you give them 403 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 3: the business. 404 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 5: So what happens. 405 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 3: What happened to me, and it still affects me to 406 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 3: this day. My heart became real cold because that's what 407 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 3: the penitentiary turned me. Into I drink now a lot, 408 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 3: the shield all the pain go through every day. Nobody 409 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 3: know what it's like when you go to prison for 410 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 3: a crime you commit, and you wake up every morning 411 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 3: and you go to brush your teeth, wash your face. 412 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 3: You can't accept that. 413 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 5: But when you're there, they the day after hour, year 414 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 5: after year, for something you didn't do. 415 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 3: A lot of hate, build up, a lot of thoughts 416 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 3: about suicide setting. I couldn't put a rope around my neck, 417 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 3: couldn't take a lot of pills. I couldn't do that, 418 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 3: So I will cause a lot of problems hoping that 419 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 3: the police would kill me because I became tired. Nobody 420 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 3: know what it's like for me, even to this day, 421 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 3: just to fight to get up. I gotta give myself 422 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 3: a reason to keep getting up every day. Yeah, people 423 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 3: see me. I still look young, still got my swag, 424 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 3: but they don't know what it's like for me. I 425 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 3: gave these people twenty plus years of my life for 426 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 3: no reason, and. 427 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 5: They start detective. 428 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 3: He's living somewhere suburbs, somewhere, he get his pension. 429 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 5: You all right? He all right? 430 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 3: No matter how many times people do stories about that 431 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 3: coward not feeling never habit too. But I thought they say, well, 432 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 3: you committed crime, you go to jail for it. I 433 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 3: ain't equit, make no crime. I went to jail. They 434 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 3: exonerated us. So that means everything he did, he lied, 435 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 3: he committed crimes. He forms to five evidence. 436 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 5: They say it's a misdemeanor what he did. Okay, cool. 437 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 3: I know a whole lot of people that got mister 438 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 3: Meanings that went to jail. I would within a few 439 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 3: of them, So I understand what y'all doing. I appreciate. 440 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 3: Let me make this clear to y'all, and I'm just 441 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,479 Speaker 3: being honest. It's only one person that's gonna make him 442 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 3: pay for what he did to all of us. Everyone 443 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 3: that was not just me and my co defenished. We're 444 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 3: the only ones that coward violates it. We ain't told 445 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 3: he once, but the law gonna make him pay for it. 446 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 3: Though he gonna be a rack. He gonna be a rack. 447 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 3: They broke me a little bit, but I'm gonna keep fighting. 448 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 3: That day, thought my cold defend. 449 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 5: They need me to hold him down. Now it's my turn. 450 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 5: He helped me, Damn. 451 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 3: He helped me. Damn Well, I was in prison, ripping 452 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 3: and running. He was in the little library fighting for 453 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 3: both of us. These tears just say for me, he's 454 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 3: tears for him too. My cold defriend it is hurt 455 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 3: the same way they broke me. They broke my cold 456 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 3: defend in too. But he kept fighting for us. That's 457 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 3: why I'm sitting there. He got us to this point. 458 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 3: No matter how many interviews I gotta do, I got us. 459 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 3: I'm gonna let the people know about that coward. I 460 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 3: got nephews that I ain't. 461 00:26:55,240 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 5: Even grow up with my moms, my sister. What about 462 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 5: their pain? What about them knowing that they huh like 463 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 5: like no. 464 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 3: I was inning, I got a door. We'll never have 465 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 3: a relationship. But she can't never understand why her dad 466 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 3: wasn't there. And I don't know how to fix that. 467 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,199 Speaker 3: That coward took that from me. That cowward took that 468 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 3: from me. You know, yesterday I watched my daughter come 469 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 3: out of the building from coming from my mom's house, 470 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 3: and she was in the cabin. She just turned and 471 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 3: looked at me, and we looked at each other like 472 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 3: we were full blooded enemies. You know how that feel. 473 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 3: Don't nobody know how that shit? But it's all right, though, 474 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 3: It's all right it's part of life. That's the only 475 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 3: way it could make sense for me. That's the only 476 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 3: way I. 477 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 5: Can survive is if I said it's all right. 478 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 3: That's anyway. I ain't got no choice no more. Without that, 479 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 3: my moms and my sister be burying me. That's how 480 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,959 Speaker 3: it makes sense something it's all right. That's how I 481 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 3: keep going every day. It's all right when I wake 482 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:26,880 Speaker 3: up every day. It's all right for me. I'm real 483 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 3: for it because at the moment I stopped saying that 484 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 3: it's all right, it's the. 485 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 5: Moment I don't want to be here no more. So 486 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 5: it's all right. No woman is all right. 487 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 6: You know what. 488 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 2: Let's take a break. Okay, Let's just take a break 489 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 2: for a second from having to talk about this for 490 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 2: just a moment. Okay, So I think I. 491 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 3: Just need a few minutes. 492 00:28:46,960 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 6: I just need a few minutes. 493 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 2: To our listeners. I just want to acknowledge that Vince 494 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 2: is clearly in a lot of pain here. All of 495 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 2: us who work on this podcast take the health and 496 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 2: safety of our guests very seriously. Immediately after this interview, 497 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 2: we connected Vince with a specialized trauma therapist and we 498 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 2: talked to his family to make sure he was being 499 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 2: taken care of and supported. In the days and weeks 500 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 2: following this conversation, we also spend a lot of time 501 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 2: talking and thinking about which parts of this interview to air, 502 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 2: whether or not his pain was too raw, too fresh, 503 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 2: whether or not Vince really wanted all of this out 504 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 2: in the world, We asked him, and the answer is 505 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 2: he does. He wants the world to know what happened 506 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 2: to him, how it still affects him today. You know, 507 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 2: wrongful conviction stories are often packaged as these stories of triumphs, 508 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 2: but behind so many of them there's deep emotional suffering. 509 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 2: So to Vince, I just want to say that I'm 510 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 2: amazed and humbled by your bravery. You're sharing the truth 511 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 2: of what happened to you, and our shared life work 512 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 2: is to stop this from happening to anyone else ever again. 513 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 2: So with that, let's get back to what happened next 514 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 2: in Vincent's story. So, Ron, let's go back to you. 515 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 2: You've been involved at the time of trial. Years pass 516 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 2: and you do get back involved with this case. Can 517 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 2: you tell us how you got involved again and how 518 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 2: the case eventually started to turn its direction back towards justice. 519 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,959 Speaker 4: The turning point in the case came in early twenty 520 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 4: thirteen when Tommy Malik, who never gave up, sent the 521 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,479 Speaker 4: most extraordinary document to me that I've ever seen. And 522 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 4: what Tommy found was a ten page order from a 523 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 4: state Supreme Court justice regarding Raekwan Schabaz and his most 524 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 4: recent false testimony where he created a conspiracy to murder 525 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 4: a sitting judge. The FBI got involved and they quickly 526 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 4: realized what the DA's office could never face, which this 527 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 4: is a hoax. This is something that Shabaz is doing 528 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 4: simply to create a reason for him to be an informer, 529 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 4: to get out of prison. And judge the judge issues 530 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 4: a ten page injunction saying that Rakwan Schabaz aka Marlon 531 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 4: Avilla is a clear and present danger to the administration 532 00:31:54,840 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 4: of justice. He is permanently enjoined from ever intacting anyone 533 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 4: in law enforcement. Again, if he feels the need to 534 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 4: contact someone in law enforcement, he will contact a Special 535 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 4: Master who I am appointing, And he is the only 536 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 4: person that Shabbaz is ever to contact because his history 537 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 4: and his habit of lying, creating cases, falsifying testimony, falsifying 538 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 4: conspiracies is such that to let him talk to law 539 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 4: enforcement is in fact, to disrupt the criminal justice system. 540 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 4: I had never seen a document like this before. I 541 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 4: have never seen a document like that since. And I 542 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 4: called the head of the conviction Review Unit, who I 543 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 4: had known from other cases, and he said, just wait 544 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 4: a little bit. There's going to be things coming out 545 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 4: about Detective Scarcella that you're going to want to know. 546 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 4: Early on, they took this case. This case was handed 547 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 4: to them in twenty thirteen, and by the time of 548 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 4: this exoneration in twenty twenty two, it was the oldest case, 549 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 4: the longest any case had lingered. But in the end 550 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 4: they found everything they needed to convince everybody beyond any 551 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 4: doubt whatsoever that all three of these young men, then 552 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 4: young men, were wrongfully convicted. I started with Tommy, and 553 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 4: then in twenty seventeen I realized that they were all 554 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 4: going to stand or fall together just like they did 555 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 4: at trial. 556 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,959 Speaker 2: And so you ended up representing Vince too in his 557 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 2: effort to be exonerated. But at this point, Vince, you 558 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 2: had already been paroled, right, you were parolled in twenty 559 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 2: twenty How did you and Ron get in touch again? 560 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 3: I got a letter from him, and he said he 561 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 3: wanted to come see me. Right, I already knew who 562 00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 3: he was, so I really I you know, by this time, 563 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 3: it's twenty seventeen. I got three years left before I 564 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 3: go to the board. It's all right, I said, my 565 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 3: cold infinity must have came up with something. He pulled 566 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,359 Speaker 3: the rabbit out of hot force or something. He ain't 567 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 3: come up here, just just for no reason. And when 568 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 3: he came to see me then he said, look, it's 569 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 3: a seventy five percent chance we're gonna get it over Trump. Right, 570 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 3: seventy five percent. I'm saying to myself, that's pretty hard. 571 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 3: On a seventy five percent note. Normally a lawyer tell 572 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 3: you at the most he might put it at. If 573 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 3: he's trying to be a little cocky, he might put 574 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,280 Speaker 3: it at fifty. So right before I went to the board, 575 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 3: I let him know I was going to the board, 576 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 3: and I asked him to write me a letter. Now, 577 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 3: normally when you go in front of the parole board, 578 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 3: you know, after you say your name, they tell you 579 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 3: who they are, they name and everything, and they asks 580 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 3: you your name. They jumped right into the cakes and everything. 581 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 3: But they didn't do that with me. First thing they 582 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 3: asked me about was the letter from my lawyer, and 583 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 3: I said, yeah, I guess after getting the letter from Ron, 584 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 3: and Ron told him he let him know straight up 585 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 3: and down. Y'all should do the right thing because this 586 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 3: case gonna get over trunk. Y'all don't want to be 587 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,760 Speaker 3: the reason why he had to stay in prison any longer, 588 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 3: so y'all should let him go. 589 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 5: And he was right. 590 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,320 Speaker 3: I made my boy when I came home and then 591 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 3: I was sleeping, called me early in the morning, and 592 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,760 Speaker 3: like he always do, when he called me his greeting, 593 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 3: Hey Vince, I said, what's up, bro, How you doing? 594 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 3: He said, I'm all right. He said, listen, you got 595 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 3: to be at the court room on Friday. Cats your 596 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 3: case getting over turned. I said yeah, he said yeah. 597 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 3: I was tired. I was tired that morning. I was 598 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 3: tired that morning. But after he told me that I 599 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 3: couldn't go back to sleep, I started figuring, trying to 600 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 3: put together what I'm away of the court, nice white 601 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 3: white shorts, my fitted hat broke down to the side. 602 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 5: I still got a little bit of swag. 603 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 3: I told you that y'all came in there, you know, 604 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 3: and I'm not gonna lie them. When I got there, 605 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 3: were higher our other lawyer. She met me out in 606 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 3: the hallway. She says, I was nervous, so I asked 607 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 3: her where my co defending was at, So what tell 608 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,399 Speaker 3: me yet? She said they bringing them out, So I said, 609 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 3: all right, And they brought them out in the handcuffs. 610 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 3: That kind of that That that that pissed me off 611 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 3: seeing him come out of handcuffs. When we walked out, 612 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 3: we walked out together. 613 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 5: At the end. 614 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 3: They asked us what we're gonna do now, and I 615 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 3: told him We're going to Disney World. So when this 616 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 3: is all over with, when everything is all over with 617 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 3: me and my boy going to Disney World. Depending on 618 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 3: how this's turning out, depending on how after I see 619 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 3: the last the. 620 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 5: Ending cut, I might invite y'all. I don't know yet. 621 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 2: And all I want to see is him and lime green, 622 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 2: you and white at Disney World. That is how I 623 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 2: want to see you. 624 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 3: No he no, no, no, he can no. He can 625 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 3: never put on lime green again. No, no, that is 626 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 3: against the rules for him. 627 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 2: Ron, we're getting to the end of a story. I 628 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 2: just want to say, you've been working on this case 629 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 2: for a long time. This has been a twenty seven 630 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 2: year labor for you. 631 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look, one of the advantages about living 632 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 4: to be my age is that sometimes you do get 633 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 4: to see stuff come around again. I'm happy that I'm 634 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 4: old enough now that I am living to see some 635 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 4: of these things happen. So I wouldn't call it a 636 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 4: twenty seven year labor. I'd call it a twenty seven 637 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:55,800 Speaker 4: year look at watching what goes around finally finally does 638 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,839 Speaker 4: come around. And while I don't think the moral arc 639 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,399 Speaker 4: of the universe bends toward justice, in fact, I don't 640 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 4: think the moral arc of the universe freaking exists. I 641 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 4: do know that sometimes for some people there is a 642 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 4: reckoning at least, and that's what's happened here, and. 643 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 2: That reckoning, I think is going to come one day 644 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 2: for the officers who did this. We all know that 645 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 2: the law creates exceptions for police officers. We know that 646 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,439 Speaker 2: qualified immunity protects police officers even when they do things 647 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,799 Speaker 2: like this. But what I will say is that the 648 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 2: world will know their names. They will know their names 649 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 2: as bad police, and that's going to have to be 650 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 2: where we leave this for now. At the end of 651 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,760 Speaker 2: every episode, of wrongful conviction. We do what we call 652 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 2: closing arguments. This is where you get to close out 653 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 2: the show. You can talk about anything you want to 654 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,320 Speaker 2: talk about. And before you do, I just want to 655 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 2: say thank you to Ron and thank you to Vince 656 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 2: for sharing your story with us today. It has been 657 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 2: an honor. Vince. 658 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 3: I'll give you the floor first and foremost, let me 659 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 3: say thank you the wrong Thank you to my cold 660 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 3: defriend of Thomas Malie, because without them, I wouldn't be 661 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:11,279 Speaker 3: sitting here right now now. Yeah, the penitentiary broken. I 662 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 3: ain't afraid to say it. If you look deep enough 663 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 3: in my eyes, you'll see it. But I'm just good 664 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 3: at shilling it. That's what the penitentiary is designed to make. 665 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 3: Break it break you down. But for me, like I said, 666 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 3: I just keep telling myself it's gonna be all right. 667 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 3: They said, Lord, don't place a burden on a person 668 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 3: that they can't bear, And I guess it was designed 669 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:40,359 Speaker 3: for me to carry a heavy burden. Some days it's 670 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:45,399 Speaker 3: light like today, real heavy, and for the next couple 671 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,359 Speaker 3: of days it's won't be real heavy, and I may 672 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 3: isolate myself, my girlfriend may not understand it, my moms 673 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 3: may not understand it. 674 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 5: My sister will. 675 00:39:55,680 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 3: Lord, that's my baby girl, my sister's tears. 676 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 5: As you see, Man, he's ain't a for us. All 677 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 5: this is years hurting pain those that will see this. 678 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 5: No one understands something. Man. 679 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:19,240 Speaker 3: Penitentiary ain't designed for nobody. Man, white, black, blue green, 680 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 3: especially for those that didn't do it. If you did 681 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 3: a crime, you know and understand what it is. I 682 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 3: could have did a million years long for something I did. 683 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,319 Speaker 3: But it's all right, though, life goes on. Me and 684 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 3: my colder friendly are gonna survive because the same thing 685 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 3: I tell myself, he telling itself. Because that's all we got. 686 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 3: Our family there, but that's all we got to tell ourselves. 687 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 3: We all right, We're gonna make it. And I leave 688 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:54,160 Speaker 3: y'all with that. 689 00:40:54,520 --> 00:41:04,839 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm 690 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 2: your guest host, Laura and I writer. I'd like to 691 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 2: thank our executive producers Jason Flamm and Kevin Ortis. The 692 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,799 Speaker 2: Senior producer for this episode is Jackie Polly, and our 693 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:19,319 Speaker 2: producers are Lila Robinson and Jeff Cleiburn. Our editor is 694 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 2: Lexandra Whedy. The music in this production is by Three 695 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 2: Time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow 696 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:32,720 Speaker 2: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful 697 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 2: Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well 698 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,319 Speaker 2: as at Lava for Good. On all three platforms, you 699 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 2: can follow me on Instagram and Twitter at Laura and 700 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,279 Speaker 2: I Writer. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for 701 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:54,320 Speaker 2: Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one. 702 00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 1: Next week, on the guest hosted episodes of Wrongful Conviction 703 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 1: and Lauren Bright Pacheco will sit down with Mark Shann, 704 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 1: the victim of the Springfield, Massachusetts Police Department and their 705 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: blatant disregard for the truth. Mark served nearly thirty years 706 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: behind bars while his family and community fought for his freedom, 707 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 1: surviving not only prison but also a dire medical emergency. 708 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: Lauren Brye Pacheco is a brilliant investigator and she's no 709 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,479 Speaker 1: stranger to wrongful conviction cases. You may know her from 710 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:31,800 Speaker 1: her groundbreaking incredible podcasts Murder and Oregon and Murder in Illinois. 711 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,560 Speaker 1: Listen next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast feed