1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to the Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Julie Douglas. 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: You know, Julie. I U. I take marta headline is 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: public transportations to work every day. I don't know you've 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: taken it sometimes yourself. Yes, I have frequented at Martyn myself. Yeah, 7 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: And so you're completely surrounded by strangers, and if you're 8 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: like me, you kind of keep your head down and 9 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: eyes on your book and heading some music and trying 10 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: not to make eye contact. No eye contact, that's the 11 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: first rule. Yeah, but you still can't help it. Get 12 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: a glimpse of people out of it in your peripheral 13 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: vision and uh yeah, sneak looks and occasionally, if you 14 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: can get away with it, like genuine people watching, but 15 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: that's more of a sunglasses thing. But but anyway, that 16 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,639 Speaker 1: when I first started taking it, I had this situation 17 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: where out of the corner of my eye, I was like, oh, 18 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: my goodness, that's my my friend Becky, who take makes 19 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: this uh this train as well, And I'd look over 20 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: and upon closer examination and and stringent questioning, I found 21 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: out that it is not her the questioning h yeah, yeah, 22 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: the question you know. I drilled her for about an 23 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: hour and she finally you know, fest up. No, I'm 24 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: not really packing but yeah, but anyway I can. I 25 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: still see her occasionally, and I think of her as 26 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: foe Becky, as this this doppel gang er, this this 27 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: double that Becky has in the world and apparently has 28 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: never met and doesn't know about, and probably to Becky 29 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 1: doesn't look a lot like Becky. But I even encountered 30 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: her in yoga class one time, and I wanted to 31 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: come up and be like, your foe, Becky, what are 32 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: you doing outside of Martha? But um it But this 33 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: this experience though, of seeing somebody else's double or seeing 34 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: your own double, uh, you just you find it throughout 35 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: human culture and in different way shaped and form it 36 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: might spirit um especially the classic German dopel ganga topel ganga. 37 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: Really yeah, I like write it and you give it 38 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,559 Speaker 1: a good sprockets go there. Um you know the idea 39 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: that there are or you know, invasion of the body 40 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,959 Speaker 1: snatchers pod people, that there there are doubles out there 41 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: trying to replace you or replace people you love. Um, 42 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,959 Speaker 1: it's just a common item in folk tale and fiction 43 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: throughout history. Yeah, I mean it means double walker right 44 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: in German. I believe so. And it actually that the 45 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: idea that the pure idea I suppose and folklore is 46 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: that it's your evil twin and if you were to 47 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: be visited by such, it would pretend death. And and 48 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: not every culture has it laid out like Star Trek 49 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: where you can tell your evil twin is evil because 50 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: of their goatee, right right, exactly. Yeah, And actually, I 51 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 1: mean there are a lot of people who have said 52 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: that they saw their their doppelganger, and Percy Shelley is 53 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: one of them. Uh, Abraham Lincoln that that falls into 54 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: the hole that Lincoln really get shot or was it 55 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: his twin? Right right? I mean it gets since some 56 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: creepy territory. Yeah, and uh, you know, as we're we 57 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: can explore in this podcast, there are there are various 58 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: types of what world is referred to as doppelgang er situations, 59 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: encounters with a mysterious double of some kind that that 60 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: have a definite scientific explanation. Um. And then that's what's 61 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: fascinating about it, because something has clearly been happening to 62 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: the mind, So kind of like the like we discussed 63 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: in our episode on an alien abduction, something is clearly happening. 64 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: It causes people to have extraordinary situation encounters with what 65 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 1: seems to be the supernatural, and it becomes a part 66 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: of the stories we tell. Um. But you can when 67 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: you really examine it and boil it down with modern science, 68 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: you find some some some genuine reasons for what's happening. Yeah, 69 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: it's interesting that you bring that up, because in the 70 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: alien abduction there's there're always these memes, right, these these 71 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: ideas that have a certain thread running through them. So 72 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: a lot of alien abductions sound like the same sort 73 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: of thing, right, little green men, weird lights, so on 74 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: and so forth, and that shares some similar days with 75 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: double gangers. I think, yeah, because it's like you you 76 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: end up, say, you see yourself or you see somebody 77 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: who who you think has been replaced. Um, your mind 78 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: ends up coming up with these reasons for it. There's 79 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: a story they're that they're replacing somebody, there's some sort 80 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: of nefarious scheme at work. The thing is, our understanding 81 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: of it now is so much more nuanced, and so 82 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: in the past in degree, we were like, oh, that 83 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 1: person is just certifiability nuts, right, But now through neuroscience 84 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: we have a better understanding of it as an actual 85 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: secondary condition. So if you had brain lesions, UM, if 86 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: you had an epileptic fit or um some other uh 87 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: neurological damage to your brain, it's very possible that you 88 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 1: could have this type of delusion in which you had 89 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: a doppelganger of yourself or I might even imagine that 90 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: you right now have been replaced, that you are an impostor. 91 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: Who Yeah, it's possible for new listeners. You don't even 92 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: know if you you have no frame of reference. That's right. 93 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: I mean I've never seen anywhere of that shirt before. 94 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: That's that's the way you're shuffling your papers. Well, let's uh, 95 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: let's get into it then. UM let's look at the 96 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: first of these doppelganger syndromes. And this is uh cop 97 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: grass syndrome. And this was discovered by French scientists Joseph 98 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 1: capgra In. Right. Yes, this syndrome basically breaks down to 99 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: you have to end up with this strong suspicion that 100 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: impostors are replacing friends and or loved ones, right and 101 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: everywhere else, you're you're completely functional, right, Like your logic 102 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: is completely intact um, nothing wrong with you except that, right, 103 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: It's it's the pod people thing, the invasion of the 104 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 1: body snatchers, right. Something you you run into, say, your 105 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: mother are a close friend and you're talking to them. 106 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: They they look like your mother. Uh, but there's something off. 107 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: There's something that's not right, that's not clicking, and and 108 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: and you realize and you your brain totally rationalizes that 109 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: something has replaced them, right, And you've actually covered this 110 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: in a blog post before U there was this one 111 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: specific instance where there was a guy I think he's 112 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: maybe in his twenties at the time, but he was 113 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: being treated by Dr vs. Ramachandran and he had an accident. 114 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: He had some brain damage, and honestly he was perfectly 115 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: fine cognitively, you know, functioning, except that he was he 116 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: was convinced that his parents had been replaced by impostors. 117 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: And we're you know, complaining to them day and night 118 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: and basically saying, like, you know what, that lady that 119 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: was here this morning that made me the breakfast, I 120 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: like her better. Those eggs were really good, you know, 121 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: sort of implying that the person that was standing right there. 122 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: His mother was the impostor. So the way this breaks 123 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: down is that each of us has a visual system 124 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: and a limbic system which helps to generate and process emotions. 125 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: All right, So there's a there's a screw up in 126 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: the visual system here, uh and and then it's left 127 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: to the to uh, to the to other parts of 128 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: the brain to interpret that data. Um, particularly the amiga amigdala, Right, 129 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: amigdala is the emotion processing center, right, and uh so 130 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: it has to it has to make sense of this, right, 131 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: He's like, it engages the again, the emotional significance of 132 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: what you're looking at, trying to figure out, you know, 133 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: what's going on there? Is this? Is this a threat? 134 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: Is this a dangerous it's something to ignore? And uh 135 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: and so it ends up getting excited and it ends 136 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: up and it ends up applying an interpretation or a 137 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: meaning to it. So it's um one way I was 138 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: thinking of it. It's kind of like, so you have 139 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: an editor and a journalist at a newspaper and say, 140 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: that's just like a star journalist, right, and the editors 141 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: will always go go to bat for that journal to 142 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: that for that journalists to defend what they've written. You know, 143 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: someone says, hey, I don't, I don't. I don't think 144 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: they're they've got the story straight in this article. They say, no, totally. 145 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: This person is always done right by us, this one. No, 146 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: this this guy knows his story. And then imagine that 147 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: that journalists I don't know, screws up one day, maybe 148 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: has a um, you know, a head injury or something, 149 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: and and or or it's just totally misinformed on something. 150 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: The journalist is still going to go to bat form 151 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean the editor is still going to 152 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: go to bat for that journalists and be like like, 153 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: look this this person is totally totally knows their beat. 154 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: They've they've got all the facts, um, you know, totally 155 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: trust the stellar creds. So it's kind of a similar 156 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 1: situation with these two systems in the brain. This one 157 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: system is getting something wrong, but the other side is 158 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: totally going to go to bat for it and say, yeah, 159 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: there's something wrong with this person. It's uh, it's it 160 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: must be um, it's a double it's a It ends 161 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: up creating a story in which this uh neural problem 162 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: makes sense. Well, that's what I think is so fascinating 163 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: about this is that you've got the fusiform gyris right, 164 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 1: which is the part of your brain that recognized is 165 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: the face, and so it's recognizing the mom and dad's 166 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: face right in the case of David, I believe it's 167 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: the subject here, Um, David's mom, Dad knows it, but 168 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: that the thread to the magdala is all sorts of 169 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: crazy shredded or you know what. It's not working, and 170 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: so that emotional processing isn't there. So David can say, yes, 171 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: that is my mother, that is my father, and yet 172 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: I don't feel those feelings of love for them, and 173 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: then the brain can then take that, as you say, 174 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: anxiety sets in and start to weave a story around that. 175 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:37,199 Speaker 1: That is fascinating that your brain is capable of doing that, 176 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: that instead of sustaining brain damage and having your entire 177 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: brain dim like a light bulb. You know, everything else 178 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: is functioning except for this one little part. And the 179 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: brain is like, you know what, We'll just run with this, 180 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: trying to make sense of this with the data that 181 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: we do have. We're not going to shut down production 182 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: just because something that the little fishy. We're gonna we're 183 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: gonna work with and therefore, you know, David's parents, they 184 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: must be imposters. That's what makes it's right, because if 185 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: you don't have that feeling of love, that connection, then 186 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 1: then that would be what your brain might perceive. Yeah, 187 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: and this can be The interesting thing about this too, 188 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: is it's not necessarily like a situation where it has 189 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: to be extreme brain brain trauma like alcoholism can play 190 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: a role in this. Pituitary tumors, migraines, UM, you know, 191 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: against severe injuries, Alzheimer's UM, schizo, effective disorders, UM, a 192 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: whole host of There can be a whole host of 193 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: causes for this, and and in many cases you can 194 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: effectively treat the primary cause and uh, this doppelganger or 195 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: or you know, mysterious double or body snatcher a scenario 196 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: will just fade away. That's right. You could, I mean, 197 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 1: if it's a brain tumor, you could treat the brain 198 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: tumor and hopefully it would would completely go away. Or 199 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: you could use antidepressants if it's not a brain tumor, 200 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 1: or in conjunction with it UM. If it's dementa, though, 201 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 1: that's a problem because you're continually going to have some 202 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: sort of deterioration going on in the brain. So in 203 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,599 Speaker 1: some cases with to mention actually worsens. Yeah, and and 204 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: and when it worsens, you can also end up with 205 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: situations where an individual attacks or becomes violent towards, uh, 206 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: the other individual. Yeah. And you know, I have this 207 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: idea in my head and I don't know if it's 208 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: some sort of um myth, but I feel like someone 209 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: perceived their family member to be a robot and actually 210 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: ended up decapitating the person to see to verify whether 211 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: or not they had some robotics of puitry going on. Yeah. 212 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: So if it's one way to tell, yeah, I mean 213 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: that's that's the extreme. So if you have a loved 214 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: one asking about where you're lithium ion battery pack is 215 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: seek shelter. This presentation is brought to you by Intel 216 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: sponsors of tomorrow. Yeah, and indeed, if you have any 217 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: suspicion that somebody has been replaced in your life by 218 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: by an impostor go to the doctor first before you 219 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: call the police or taking matters into your own hand, 220 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: because it's uh, it is almost guarantee it's something and 221 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: your logical going on and not uh uh some sort 222 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: of twisted scheme to disrupt your life. Yeah, yeah, um, 223 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: and we know this too because Ramachandra, the doctor treating David, 224 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 1: he could actually test the emotional response and verify this 225 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: lack of emotional response. He uses the galvanic skin response. 226 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: And and of course we knew that you attach electrodes 227 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: to your hand and then when you think about someone 228 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: that you know, the loved one. In theory, you should 229 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: start sweating, right because you're you're having some sort of 230 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: emotional response. And and um, when Ramachandra tested this, there 231 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: was was absolutely no response whatsoever to his parents, was 232 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: absolutely flat. So he knew he had he had some 233 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: verification that this was what was going on. In addition, 234 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: and I thought this was really interesting. Um, David the subject, 235 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: when he would speak to his parents on the phone, 236 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: he didn't have the feeling that they weren't imposters. He 237 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: was like, where have you been? How? So like on 238 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: the phone, everything's fine, yeah, absolutely fine. Yeah. And so 239 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: what Ramachan positive is that the auditory circuitry was left 240 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: intact during the damage that he sustained and that it 241 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 1: was actually fine. And he ended up verifying that as well. 242 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: So it's really kind of trippy that he could get 243 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: on the phone with his parents and be like, oh 244 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: my god, did you know that you've been taken over 245 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: by someone? Like they're in your house right now getting 246 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: to be I wonder how cold like the mom couldn't 247 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: call and say like, look, there's my double is going 248 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: to come over and cook breakfast this morning. I know 249 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: her breakfast isn't as good as the breakfast that I cook, Like, 250 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: just be polite, be kind, and I'll talk to you 251 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: to night on the phone. Yeah, yeah, who knows. Maybe 252 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: she tried it. You know, maybe that made it worse 253 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: because then he was like, Okay, now I know for 254 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: sure because my mom, my real mom on the phone 255 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: told that's all right. Well that's one doppelganger down. Uh, 256 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: let's turn to another. Um, another interesting syndrome, and that 257 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: would be the syndrome of subjective doubles. Now, this is 258 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: this is not a oh, you know, you're on the 259 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: train and you look over and you see somebody looks 260 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: like a friend of yours. This is where you get 261 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: on the train and um, maybe maybe maybe at the 262 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: far end of the car you climb onto, maybe just 263 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: exiting as you come on, you see yourself yeah, it's 264 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: kind of terrifying, right, Yeah, this is more like the 265 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: classic German doppelganger. There is someone out there that has 266 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: either taken on my appearance or is trying to thick 267 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: on my appearance, and clearly they're up to no good. Well, 268 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: in a study that you actually shared with me, there 269 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: was the case of miss A right. Yeah, she eighteen 270 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: years old. She thought that her neighbor was putting on 271 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: these elaborate prosthetic masks and wigs and masquerading as her, 272 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: and the gang was putting them that's right, that's right. 273 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: There was some sort of puppet master gang out there 274 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: that was putting her up to it, and those people 275 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: were spalling on her or whatnot. So there was some 276 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: sort of paranoia that's woven into this as well. Um 277 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: and these um, these doubles actually replicated themselves when she 278 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: was admitted to a hospital and she got very upset 279 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: and assisted that the doubles of her the unmasked um 280 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: and again here's again instances where violence come into play. Yeah, 281 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: Like she was actually like leaping at the double and 282 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: like trying to attack it, attack her, attack that her 283 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: perceived double, and insisting that the doctors tear the mask 284 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: off because she she thought that that she believed that 285 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: they were quote putting on a wig and a mask 286 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: and walking from room to room stealing things in order 287 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: to incriminate her. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of said. And 288 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: what they found is though that she suffered from epilectic seizure. 289 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: So again here's another case where it's secondary. She may 290 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: have had some other conditions, um that had to do 291 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: with mental instability in addition to that. UM. It was 292 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: a little bit unclear from that study, but what was 293 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: clear is that this could definitely be some sort of 294 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: indirect process going on. Yeah, it seems like if you're 295 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: the type of if you've suffered through something or you 296 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: just end up with the mental um uh you know 297 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: architecture that it makes you think people are out to 298 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: get you, or you're very suspicious of people. It seems 299 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: like the stronger that is, the stronger that's going to 300 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: be when you perceive a double all right, right, And 301 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: she was treated with a number of things antidepressants, electric 302 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: shock therapy, so you know, sad um. But what I 303 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: thought was interesting about this is that we have heard 304 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: about these epileptic auras before that there's this sense that 305 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: someone might be there. And Susan Blackmore, we've talked about 306 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: her before. She she shown up in our Abductions podcast before. 307 00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: And she's also the medicist's hair. She's blue, yellow, all 308 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 1: sorts of stuff. She's a skeptic and the psycho uh 309 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: analytic chick so to speak. Uh, she's great. And she 310 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: actually visited a doctor Michael Persinger at one point um 311 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 1: to undergo some manipulation on her own temporal lobes to 312 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: see if she could have this sort of sense of 313 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 1: someone else being there, this hallucination or rather this delusion 314 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,199 Speaker 1: replicated in herself. And Persinger used these magnets on her 315 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: temporal lobes machine. Right, yeah, he's He's done a couple 316 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 1: of different things. But the God machine is was nicknamed 317 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 1: that because those sort of euphoric feelings of another are present, 318 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: hence the God machine. But she actually had the same 319 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: thing happened to her. So when he used those magnets 320 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: on her temporal lobes, she felt like there was someone 321 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 1: in the room with her. So it's really amazing that 322 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: we can get it down to this point in science 323 00:17:55,320 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 1: where we can actually duplicate the duplications so to speak. Yeah, 324 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: and it's it's almost kind of like a like a 325 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: really potent form of deja viku. You know. It's a 326 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 1: except really really strong yea, and very disorienting. Yeah, yeah, 327 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: I mean, and yes, it's actually kind of a tragedy, 328 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 1: right because I mean for people who cannot alleviate it, 329 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: I mean, the suicide ridge is pretty high. Um, so 330 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: it's a little bit depressing. Yeah, it's you know, it's easy. 331 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: It's easy to look in from the outside of pretty 332 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: much any kind of mental illness or or a neurological 333 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,479 Speaker 1: disorder and say, oh, well that, you know, I can 334 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,959 Speaker 1: see the exit from that maze. But when you're actually 335 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: in that mental labyrinth, it's not not so simple. Yeah. 336 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: And it's another example of how your mind is really 337 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: beautiful but can be really sick at the same time. 338 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: You know. But another example of this clonal pluralization of self. Now, 339 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 1: this one's great, This one's this is more like you 340 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: you're on the train and it's not that you're seeing 341 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: your double, but you are seeing yourself. That person isn't 342 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: an imposter, but it's another you. It's kind of kind 343 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 1: of like any any type of any of these films 344 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: were like suddenly a person clones himself and completely illogically 345 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: it's an actual double of them, or somebody travels in 346 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: time and he's hanging out with themselves. It's it's that 347 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 1: sort of scenario. It's sort of like if my twin 348 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: all of a sudden showed up. Yeah, yeah, and which 349 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: just happened to this eighty six year old man, right, yes, 350 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: Oh no, I don't. I don't think we have a 351 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: name for yeah, eighty six year old. Um. I believe 352 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: he's Hungarian um mentioned in a two thousand nine study. 353 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: And yeah, suddenly his uh, this doppelganger shows up, his 354 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 1: his it's not even a twin, but it's perceived as 355 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: as him, like right down of the clothes, he's wearing 356 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 1: the same clothes as this guy. And it's it's this 357 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: is a real twist on on our last scenario because 358 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: because there's not like, oh my goodness, I need to 359 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 1: bar the door because my doppelganger is shown up. I'm 360 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 1: I have company come in and let's let's have tea, 361 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 1: let's do crossword puzzles. And they did. They literally did 362 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: crossword puzzles together, and um, and that's the interesting thing 363 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: to literally it's difficult in this scenario, right, Literally, in 364 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 1: his mind they did it together. But so for him 365 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: it was a sense of comfort. Rate yeah, yeah, it's 366 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: like this guy's lonely, and then who's who better to 367 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: hang out with but yourself when they fell up on 368 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: your door straight and uh, And he was kind of like, well, 369 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 1: I seem to have this twin and I think we're 370 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: the same person. Let's do some experiments so that the 371 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: crosswords was one. Like they each supposedly took the crosswords 372 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: into a different room and they filled out the crossword puzzle, 373 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 1: and then when they came in to compare notes, they 374 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: had the exact same answers. Can you imagine that? It's yeah, 375 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: I can imagine it even more if they were playing 376 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: scrabble against each other. Well, no, no, they wouldn't have 377 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: the same title, or would they. I don't know. This 378 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: is it's really hard to pre take because you're in 379 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,199 Speaker 1: pre ten world now, right. Um. But he did have 380 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: brain lesions, right, uh. And the neurologist Dr Feinberg actually 381 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: said something along the lines of the brain lesions and 382 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: neuropsychological impairments are necessary, right for this condition, for this condition, 383 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 1: but the full development of these syndromes depends upon the 384 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 1: individual's responses to his or her defects as much as 385 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: the defects themselves. So I thought was interesting because they 386 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: had gone on in the study to say that clearly 387 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: he was lonely and that this this twin although it's 388 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: it's a figment of his imagination brought on by the legions, 389 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: he still had the subjective ring to it, where it 390 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 1: was like, you know, as long as I'm gonna have 391 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: this delusion, and might as well, you know, copy myself 392 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: and have a body, you know. Another experiment that he 393 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: performed with the double um, according to this guy, was 394 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: that one of them would stand in the house and 395 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: the other would stand outside, and the one standing outside 396 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: would describe what the one inside was seeing on the wall, 397 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 1: described like the exact size and details of paintings that 398 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: the guy had framed. UM, because they could see through 399 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: each other's eyes, right, I mean, you know, I laugh, 400 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: but it's just it's just kind of it's sort of funny. UM. 401 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: And there's also another aspect to this, uh, just going 402 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: off on what Feinberg said and talking about how there's 403 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: the subjective quality to it. Dr Carol Berman talked about 404 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 1: how the negative aspects of a person that are are 405 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 1: psychologically turned into a disassociation with that person. And this 406 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: is more in cap craw right, where what do you 407 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: think there's an impostor? So in other words, uh, if 408 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 1: I if I think that you're impostor, Robert, and let's 409 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: say that you're you're tapping your fingers on the desk, 410 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: then I might say, like, that might actually annoy me, 411 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: and that might turn into another reason why I think 412 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: that you're an impostor. And what is so interesting about 413 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: the blog post that you have. You've got um an 414 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: embed in there of the YouTube video with David, and 415 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: you can see David talking to his father and saying, 416 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: you know, you drive too fast, but my real dad 417 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: like he's a much better driver than you. And it's 418 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: like this ultimate passive aggressive act of saying, you know, 419 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 1: could you slow down a little bit? So I mean, 420 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: And of course David is not sitting there pretending to 421 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: have cap gratches so that he can, you know, say 422 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: this little zinger of passive aggressiveness. But it's an interesting 423 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 1: side note to see that these negative attributes that they 424 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: see in other people than sort of underscore that their 425 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: feelings for that person being an impostor. Uh yeah. Now 426 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: the there's an interesting end to the story of the 427 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: eight six year old Hungarian man. Oh yeah, yeah, and 428 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: and that's that they they treated him, they were treating 429 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: the treated him with with various medications and his condition improved. 430 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: But and so this double ends up brawlinsons and purposes vanishing. 431 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: But again, the mind has to make sense of this. 432 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: It has to it has to roll with these changes. 433 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 1: I can't just vanish. So the version, well, I mean, 434 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: I guess it could if one word, say, engaging in 435 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: some sort of the type of supernatural occurrence that would 436 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: that where it would make sense for this person to vanish. 437 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: It was like an angel or an alien. I they're 438 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: like Doug Henning is my Yeah. But the way this 439 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: guy interpreted was that they had merged into one person. 440 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: They'd like they had come together, and he would talk 441 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: to himself for a while, like like there was still 442 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: like it didn't just completely vanish, it it kind of 443 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 1: faded and and so he would continue to talk to 444 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: himself a fair amount of the time. But there wasn't 445 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 1: a necessarily a sense of a physical other, right and uh, 446 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: and eventually it got back to where he could, you know, 447 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: he was a lot more normal daily life. Yeah, and 448 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: and and again. Here here's this person who, other than 449 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: this is functioning fine in the world. So good thing 450 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: that he got cohesive with his personalities. Uh. There's one 451 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: other one in this sort of of what you would 452 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 1: call delusional misidentification syndromes, and that is the mirror self identification. 453 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, this one. This one is pretty interesting too 454 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,719 Speaker 1: because it brings to mind the classic gag that, as 455 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: far as I know, originated in the Marx Brothers film 456 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: Duck Soup, where you know, and you if you haven't 457 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: seen that film or this scene, then you've seen some 458 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 1: version of it in a cartoon or a sitcom. And 459 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: it's where one person is pretending to be the mirror 460 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: image of the other. Uh. Maybe it's like a you 461 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: have like a picture frame, but there's no actual glass 462 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: or mirror, and so one person thinks, oh, that's my reflection. 463 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: But the person that's dressed like them or looks like 464 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: them on the other side is just shadowing their movements. 465 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: And so the you know, one person, uh, the one 466 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: person on one side will we'll sort of we'll move 467 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: around and suddenly make a you know, some sort of 468 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: um uh strange movement to try and throw off his 469 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: quote reflection and uh and try and uh and and 470 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: eventually in cases um reveal the false reflection for what 471 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 1: it is. This is also mime exercise too, right. Yeah, 472 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: but they found a case where there were two dementia patients, 473 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: right who who were I mean, they weren't miming or 474 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: were they doing Mark's brother routines, but they could no 475 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: longer recognize their faces in the mirror. Right now, they 476 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: could recognize other people's faces in mirror. So it wasn't 477 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: like just a weird screwy mirror thing. It was when 478 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: they were looking at their own face in the mirror, 479 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: they they were like, who is this guy? Is this 480 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,880 Speaker 1: handsome devil? I don't know? Uh. But they also suffered 481 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: from right side brain lesions. And again, this is the 482 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: portion of the brain, the fusiform gyus, that's associated with 483 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: self recognition. Yeah, like, even if you're using self describing adjectives, yeah, 484 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: this is the portion that lights up. Yeah. Yeah. Um, 485 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,400 Speaker 1: And it's I mean, I guess you would say it's 486 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,959 Speaker 1: similar to face blindness, right, except for that you with 487 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: face blindness, you are blind to everyone all the time, yeah, right, 488 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,360 Speaker 1: even yourself. Right, But this is this is more selective, 489 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: just just like I don't I don't know who that is. 490 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: That's so I guess that's me, but it doesn't look 491 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: like me. Yeah. So the final specter that I thought 492 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: was interesting that popped up in some of our research 493 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: is something called the third Man phenomenon or the third 494 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: Man factor. Oh yeah, this one, this one was really fascinating. 495 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: So you've probably heard some version of this story before, um, 496 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: and and that is you have some sort of extreme situation. Um, 497 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: you know, it's you know, it's like it's it's explores 498 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 1: in the Antarctic or the Arctic, It's it's it's climbers 499 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: on Everest, it's you know, people in one of the 500 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: World Trade Center towers. You're in an extreme situation. It 501 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 1: was life and death. And suddenly there's somebody there to 502 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: help you write like emotionally, your haggard, your body physically 503 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: is at its end of its rope. Right, and then 504 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: it's like a guardian angel, um, you know, an alien, 505 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: a spirit, uh, you know, something something supernatural has appeared 506 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: and and there's a sense of maybe things are gonna 507 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: be all right, and and like and in some cases 508 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: it's actually manifests as a a physical helping hand, like 509 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: something somebody's helping you up and uh, and then they're 510 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: gone after things are cool. It's like a Superheroes jumped 511 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: in and saved the day. Now, you're right, And every 512 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: single story, once they have surmounted their obstacle, that that 513 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: person vanishes, right, and then like who was that mass man? Yeah? Um? 514 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: A good example is Frank Smith three climbing Mount Everest. 515 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: He went with a group of people. He was the 516 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: last one to make it to the to almost make 517 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: it to the summit. At this point, Um, he was 518 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: feeling weak and hopeless. He didn't know if he could 519 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: go on, and so he had and he's in the 520 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: death zone, right, just low oxygen area. We've I think 521 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: we've discussed this in the past, Like this is a 522 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: good model for for some of the things that can 523 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: happen in space when when you have low oxygen levels 524 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: aboard a spaceship. Right, so, really mess with your mind. Yeah, 525 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: I mean at this point you're not thinking clearly anyway, right, Um. 526 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: But the whole time he had been discussing something with 527 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: with a person that he felt was behind him the 528 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: whole time. And um, and at this point where he 529 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: was at his his most hopeless, he actually turned to 530 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: get some food and share it with this person and 531 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: was completely shocked that that person wasn't there to receive 532 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: like the other half of his whatever nineteen thirty three, 533 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: Cliff bar Is or whatever. Um, I interpreted like a 534 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: half of a tunafig sandwich on white bread. When I 535 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: read the account, dide listen to. I mean, that's the 536 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: ideal food to split with, uh, you know, an imaginary devil. 537 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: I think, huh, get some protein carbs and tasty manni's um. 538 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: But he actually thought he this is a quote from him. 539 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: He said, it seemed that I was tied to my 540 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: companion by a rope and if I slipped, he would 541 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: hold me. I remember constantly glancing back over my shoulder. Um. 542 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: And again, it's not it's not a surprise, right that 543 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: this is happening. The surprise is that it's happening so 544 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: freak only in so many different instances. Yeah. Again, you 545 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: see it happen, and just various accounts of it. I mean, 546 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: you have other famous stories from say Sir Ernest Shackleton 547 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: during his trance Antarctic expedition. There was a sense that 548 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: they were being accompanied by this third man. Uh. It's 549 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: it's referenced in by T. S. Eliot. Who is that 550 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: third besides you? And is the group too that perceived him? 551 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: It wasn't just him. They all discussed it later and 552 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: thought there was another person that wasn't there. It's uh, 553 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: it's inter right. I was reading an article on Scientific 554 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: American that nails down some of the actual reasons for 555 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: what's happening, and they're they're all pretty interesting. One is 556 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: that one factor is isolation. So if you're in a 557 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: case where it's like one guy out in the middle 558 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: of nowhere, or or even if if it's like an 559 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: extreme situation and you have uh, you know, there are 560 00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: other people around. There's a certain isolation in death experiences, 561 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: and so this high selection can trigger the mind to 562 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: hallucinate the normal feelings we have when we're working or 563 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: traveling with other people around. Uh, you know, it's like 564 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: we're constantly surrounded their people in our in our peripheral vision, 565 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: and the mind can sort of hallucinate that they're still 566 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: there in some fashion. Um. The other other possibility is 567 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: rational uh, cortical control over emotions shuts down due to 568 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: oxygen deprivation such as you know, death zone, uh, sleep 569 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: deprivation or exhaustion, which are certainly you know, if you're 570 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: struggling for your life, you may not have time for 571 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: a nap, especially if going to sleep and subzero temperatures 572 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: would mean death. And so this opens the door for 573 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: inner voices and imaginary companions uh and and this reminds 574 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: me a lot of of some of the accounts that 575 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: have been studied of alien abduction UM. The the individual 576 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: who was on the bike ride and have been up 577 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: for a long time was just pushing himself to the 578 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: limits and then he falls out and interprets the events 579 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: as aliens coming to abductive. Well, what's interesting about this 580 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: is that in every single one of these accounts UM. 581 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: You know, in some of some of the CAPCRA and 582 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: the UM and the other misidentification syndromes and abductions, epileptic 583 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: seizures UM and the RS and delusions that accompany them, 584 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: the temporo parietal junction is the at issue, right, and 585 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: so the temporal lobe is responsible for processing images in 586 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: long term memory, and then the parietal lobe is what 587 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: helps us map objects um as coordinates. So when you 588 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: talk about seeing someone in your periphery and misunderstanding and 589 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: that that's the that's the those that's the juncture that 590 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: is processing all of this information. And so I mean, 591 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: even if you think that there's some sort of uh 592 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: truth to what maybe the person's personal account is, you 593 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,479 Speaker 1: have to to think about how and every single one 594 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: of these cases, that's the area of the brain that's 595 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: being compromised. Yeah. Another another thing to the temporal lobe 596 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: handles body scamma, which we which we've mentioned on the 597 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: Tool Users podcast that that's how the when you are 598 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: using a tool, it becomes an extension of your own 599 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: body because it's tied up in the body schemma. Um. Well, 600 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: the temporal low body scamma can be tricked in some 601 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: cases into seeing into interpreting a double So instead of 602 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: interpreting just your body doing things, it kind of gets 603 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: double vision. Yeah. And again here's your brain taking the 604 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: data that it has available to it and constructing these stories. Yeah. 605 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: So you can imagine like this sort of double vision 606 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: where instead of you opening the door to escape the 607 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: burning building, it's interpreted as some other person opened that 608 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: door so you could escape and and the brain rights 609 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: the rest right, And it's fascinating and that life or 610 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: death situation that it can spring from the font of 611 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: fabulism and create this little story to get you some 612 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: fire up under your bomb and get you going. Yeah. So, 613 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: as far as fictional doppelgangers and mysterious doubles go, do 614 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: you have any particular favorites. There are a lot of them, 615 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,399 Speaker 1: But I really like Dr Jackel and Mr Hyde because 616 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 1: I think that's the perfect evil twin example, that is, 617 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: that's one of this one of the really iconic ones 618 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah you uh yeah. The ones that I 619 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: really like her, I mean, I love a story about 620 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: an evil doppelganger. I'm a real sucker for those. But 621 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 1: I also really like the ones that are kind of 622 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: like the story of the eighties Yu Old Hungarian Man, 623 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: where where the doppelganger is either accepted with or or 624 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 1: just dealt with in a kind of curiosity. Um Alan 625 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: robe Gerla, the uh now deceased French author, had a 626 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: book called Repetition, which starts out with the narrator discussing 627 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: the his double that he occasionally encounters. UH. While I 628 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,839 Speaker 1: think typically on the train and uh, and so that's 629 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: a really interesting book. And then uh. A horror author 630 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: Brian McNaughton has a story called The Vendron Worm, which 631 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:07,280 Speaker 1: deals with a guy who will occasionally glimpse this stranger, 632 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: this kind of double that he uh that that he 633 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: can't quite explain, but ends up being tied to something 634 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: really ghastly and horrifying. But but but before he finds 635 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: out the reason, he's just kind of like, oh, there's 636 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 1: my double, you know, and you just sort of come 637 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,760 Speaker 1: to accept it, which I find is a really interesting 638 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: take on the whole scenario. It's very European of you 639 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 1: just to be like, you know, I'm just gonna go 640 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: with it. It's kind in many of these cases, it's like, 641 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: let's go with it, let's make sense of it, let's 642 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: do it. Yeah. I mean, like the American mentality is 643 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: a conquer it, right, give it some drugs, attack it, 644 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: give it some drugs, Call the police, call your mother, 645 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: want to you know, whatever it takes. So, if if 646 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 1: you have any interesting tales of doppelgangers and mysterious doubles 647 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,240 Speaker 1: in your life, if the reflection in the mirror doesn't 648 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: look quite right, and you don't have a good March 649 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: Brothers explanation for it. Let us know. You can drop 650 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: by Facebook or Twitter. We are Blow the Mind on 651 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: both of those and if you or your doppelganger would 652 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: like to drop us a line, please do so at 653 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: Blow the Mind at how stuff works dot com. For 654 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics, visit how 655 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,320 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. To learn more about the podcast, 656 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: click on the podcast icon in the upper right corner 657 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: of our home page. The how stuff Works iPhone app 658 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: has a ride. Download it today on iTunes