WEBVTT - Reasonable Doubt 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.640 Before we begin, please be aware this episode contains discussions 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:09.120 around infant deaths and other difficult topics. Please take care 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:20.160 while listening. Certainty has a reputation for being the finish line, 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:23.599 whether that's in a criminal trial or a scientific study. 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:28.280 You gather evidence, you form a hypothesis, you test it, 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:32.279 you doubt it, you stress it from every angle, and 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:36.800 only then if it survives, do you arrive at certainty. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:42.800 There's an old scientific principle that says extraordinary claims require 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:47.120 extraordinary evidence. That's supposed to be the order of things. 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:52.560 The more explosive the accusation, the more incontrovertible the proof. 0:00:53.680 --> 0:01:00.520 But in emotionally explosive cases, especially those involving children, something shifts. 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:05.520 Certainty can stop behaving like the end result of careful 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:11.520 analysis and start behaving more like a social ritual. Here's 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:18.800 what I mean. When something horrifying happens, Ambiguity feels intolerable, 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:24.520 It feels unsafe, so we reach for narrative closure. The 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:29.760 media reaches for a coherent villain, politicians reach for reassurance, 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:37.160 institutions reach for control, and slowly, certainty begins to function 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:41.520 less like a reasoned position and more like a place 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:48.120 of belonging. The narrative about me as a psychopathic, sex 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:53.240 crazed fem fatal hardened in the tabloids long before appeals 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:59.720 courts dismantled key forensic assumptions. The certainty was loud, the 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:06.000 evidence was not. Now that doesn't mean every high profile 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:10.480 conviction is wrong. What it does mean is that sometimes 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:15.000 the volume of certainty exceeds the foundation of evidence beneath it, 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:22.239 and when that happens, doubt becomes socially dangerous. People who 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:28.080 ask procedural questions are treated as sympathizers. Journalists who probe 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:34.480 inconsistencies are framed as insensitive. Experts who disagree are accused 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:39.760 of undermining victims. The signal shifts from here is why 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:45.400 we believe this to everyone decent believes this, and once 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:53.400 belief becomes a moral litmus test, the space for inquiry shrinks. 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:59.200 From a psychological standpoint, this is deeply human. Accusations of 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:04.000 harming chilln trigger one of the strongest protective circuits we have. 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:11.280 Disgust narrows our thinking. It sharpens categories innocent or evil. 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:17.560 That reflex is adaptive in evolutionary terms. It's messier in 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:24.120 legal ones. Courts are built around structured doubt, reasonable doubt. 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:28.679 There must always be room for doubt, especially in light 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:32.800 of new evidence. Far too often our legal systems fall 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:36.280 short of this ideal, and in the court of public opinion, 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:42.440 that ideal is hard to imagine. Socially, doubt often looks 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:48.920 like betrayal, and certainty of someone else's moral corruption becomes 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:53.720 a badge of honor. So what happens when that certainty 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:59.640 lands on you? I'm Amanda Knox and from Vespucci and 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:04.560 iHeart Podcasts. This is doubt the case of Lucy let 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:16.320 Be Episode ten, Reasonable Doubt. 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:23.000 When the headlines were read about myself, you know, I 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:27.479 was a villain, you know, from the get go. I 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:29.960 mean it was the lowest of the low that you 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.440 could be, the way that I was portrayed. Yeah, Yeah, 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.039 just difficult to talk about when it comes to that, 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:39.599 and I just hate that I'm associated with that. 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:45.279 This is Anna Vasquez of the San Antonio four. She 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:49.279 spent nearly fourteen years in prison after being wrongly convicted 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:53.760 of molesting children in her care. The prosecution built the 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:58.839 case on recovered memory testimony that was later discredited. It 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:02.280 took nearly eighteen years for Anna and her three co 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:07.960 defendants to be exonerated. They were all gay women. The 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.200 courts ultimately determined that the crimes they were accused of 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:13.279 never even happened. 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:22.280 You know, when I saw images of Lucy in the media, 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:27.120 I definitely saw myself with fear at the isolation and 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:30.960 this disassociated sense of self. 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:36.840 That's Heidi Goodwin. In twenty fourteen, Heidi walked out of 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:41.000 prison after nearly a decade behind bars. She had been 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:43.919 convicted of harming a child in her care under a 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:50.080 shaken baby syndrome diagnosis, a theory later challenged in court. Ultimately, 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:54.839 the court determined that again, there was no crime at all. 0:05:55.320 --> 0:06:00.599 You're being accused, especially of something that as a woman, 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:05.120 we are designed to nurture, whether that's our own or 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:06.960 someone else's. 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.760 Heidi and Anna are friends of mine, both wrongly convicted 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:17.000 of crimes against children, both members and advocates for the 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:23.480 Innocence Network, and both survivors of the machinery of public certainty. 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:28.080 For Anna, her prosecution took place in nineteen ninety four. 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.560 Her case was one of the last gasps of the 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:35.080 Satanic panic that gripped the US in the eighties and 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:41.120 nineties a period of intense cultural anxiety about alleged ritual abuse. 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:45.040 It was also a time when anti gay prejudice was 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:50.839 still openly mainstream. In that environment, identity became part of 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:55.240 the story and assumption traveled faster than proof. 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:59.479 To be villainized for the person that I am, and 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:04.240 for them to come up with this narrative of you know, 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:08.880 praying on children and you know, having this orgy with 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:13.160 myself and my three other friends against these four innocent 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:17.640 little girls, it's one that's just that's really just detrimental 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:22.720 to me. And unfortunately, because of what was happening in society, 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:25.840 the climate, and the way they view the LGBTQ back then, 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.160 all of a sudden, this other panic is in called 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:33.720 the Satanic panic. And when you have an extrat witness 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:37.600 coming on and putting that in their notes, Amanda, the 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.880 law enforcement gets I feel like they got roued up. 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:43.920 You know, this Satanic panic was real. I mean, these 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:48.440 people were using this in court cases, in several court cases, 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:51.400 and I had no idea that this was actually happening, 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:54.680 you know, at the very young age of nineteen, completely 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:59.920 naive too. The way the system can be twisted in turn, 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:03.920 and not be for you anymore. But now they're against 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:06.960 you and they're firing at all rounds. Yeah, but it 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.520 didn't matter. There were so many inconsistencies in the trials, 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:14.520 but there was no getting away from that expert witness 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:17.200 coming in and saying there was signs of sexual trauma. 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.200 Now we know years later, of course, it's you know, 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:24.600 been twenty four, twenty six years now that oh we 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:27.880 made a mistake, we testified wrong to that that wasn't 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:32.720 actual proof of signs of sexual assault. And you know, 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:38.560 now we're exonerated. But it took years and years and years. 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.360 But we had no fighting chance. I mean, and like 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:45.040 you said, yeah, children are vulnerable. We want to protect children. 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:48.360 It just sucked to be on the other side of it. 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:56.760 And now I'm this horrible person, this horrible monster. It's 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:01.160 just really mind blowing that an allegation like that could 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:09.400 lead to a conviction on absolutely no basis. 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:14.720 Heidie's prosecution relied on a different narrative, one rooted in 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:19.120 medical certainty rather than moral panic, but the effect was 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:19.600 the same. 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:25.400 I was, I believe, twenty two, twenty three years old, 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:31.480 and I was living outside of Portland, Oregon, and I 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:37.040 became a caregiver for two children over roughly a two 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:41.480 month period. One of them was fifteen months old. This 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:45.160 little girl lost consciousness in my care I had to 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:49.000 call nine one one, and then the wave of accusations, Oh, 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:52.320 it's shaken baby syndrome. Oh, it had to have happened 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:55.520 in this window, so therefore it had to happen at 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:57.959 your house, and you were the only adult there, and 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:01.679 only adult could be responsible for inflicting these types of injuries. 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:06.360 And that's basically what convicted me. They had to convince 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:11.520 the jury that I snapped, because how else could they 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:14.480 get them to believe that someone that looks like me, 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:15.520 speaks like me. 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:18.640 Has no history of violence, like you, has. 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:22.840 No history of violence whatsoever. Mother, you know, raising her children, 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.240 all of the things that we're supposed to be doing 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:29.600 and looking like and acting like. That was the only 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:31.480 way they could convince them was to say that I 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.800 must have snapped, and we now know that, you know, 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.320 none of that is actually true. Our experts were able 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:43.480 to determine that there were pre existing conditions and those 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:47.959 could possibly have led to the loss of consciousness. I 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:53.480 think for me, finally realizing that I don't have to 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.480 be the one to figure that out. That has been 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:58.720 a struggle, like I feel like I've had to answer. 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.000 I've had to be the one to answer for what 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.360 happened and figure out what happened and explain what happened 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:09.760 to defend myself when I am not a professional. 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:10.760 That would know those things. 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:13.880 You know, all I know is that I wasn't responsible 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:20.680 for harming anyone, and and so that was It's been 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:22.720 over twenty years of my life now. 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.960 In my case, things went off the rails early. The 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:32.760 story exploded internationally, and suddenly the police were operating under 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:37.120 enormous pressure to produce answers and to produce them fast. 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.680 I've had to ask myself how much that urgency influenced 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:47.520 their decisions. Do you think the fact that our cases 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:53.120 were all highly emotionally charged fed into how law enforcement 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:57.760 went about investigating the case and all of the shortcuts 0:11:57.760 --> 0:11:59.720 and mishandling that took place. 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:07.160 I do, specifically, I think that there was pressure. I 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:11.680 think that the county that I was convicted in has 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:16.640 a lot of these types of cases actually litigated or tried, 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.160 and has a high rate of conviction. Now, whether they're 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:23.000 all innocence cases, you know, I can't make that claim, 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.200 but I know that it also has a high rate 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:29.120 of innocence cases that have been overturned with some of 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:34.560 the guys as well. So I think that there was 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:41.440 pressure on the Child Abuse Intervention Detective Unit to do 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.680 what it does. And there were terms used at the 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.920 time like she's being railroaded, they're making an example out 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:51.880 of her, things to that nature. So yeah, it was 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:55.280 crazy because the judge in the case, all said and done, 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:59.600 he stated at sencing, you know, I'm not sure we 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:03.439 got this right. Wow, don Or the verdict of the jury. 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:05.439 Wow, what about you? Anne? 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:09.560 I mean clearly the headlines were like taking advantage of 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:12.360 the case to sensationalize it. Do you think that that 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:13.720 impact of the investigation. 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:18.160 Yeah, I think it was something that somebody could, you know, 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:20.480 climb the ladder on because it was just the way 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.280 that it read, you know, it was just so horrific that, yes, 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:25.320 we have to get a conviction, and yes, this could 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:27.240 put me in you know, as judge. As a matter 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:29.120 of fact, in Liz's trial. 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.479 She's referring to one of her co defendants, Liz Ramirez. 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:36.520 Yeah, that prosecutor did become judge. It was almost like 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:42.080 they were just solely focused on No, there was no investigation, 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:44.920 there wasn't anything, you know, it was just us. 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:49.920 So one of the things that really threw me through 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:53.920 an existential loop was when I was convicted, Like, the 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:56.000 jury comes down, you are a monster. 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:57.600 Definitively, this is the. 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:01.520 Rule of law. And like I felt like my entire 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:06.720 sense of self completely splintered apart because it was like 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:09.959 this idea of a person, this story of a person, 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:16.320 had now more reality around it than me. Right, Like 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:22.160 this idea of an evil, sex crazed, murder orgy person 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:26.800 was now the official truth, and everyone was now going 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:32.000 like all reality was now around this official truth, and 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:35.040 that you know, that idea of a person was sentenced 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:37.960 to this many years in prison, and that was now 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:42.400 the story that they were telling. My friend's family, her 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:45.400 surviving family is now like, Okay, we got the bad guy. 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:49.280 The bad guy's put away, but but it's me. It's 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:52.280 me that's being sent to prison, not the bad guy. 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.040 That's not the truth for me. Like I had this 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.760 really existential crisis moment because in that moment, I realized 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.760 the truth didn't matter. And as a part of that, 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:05.560 I didn't matter and what do I do with that? 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:09.560 And that was like a really dark moment for me 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:14.880 as a twenty two year old kid. Do you guys 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:16.880 remember what that was like for you? 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:18.080 Yeah? 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:28.400 It ruptured like my sense of identity and autonomy and 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:33.720 it you know, we have layers of childhood traumas things 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:38.280 that happen, you know, And it surfaced all those insecurities 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:45.320 and fears right that told me I'm not good. Something 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:49.520 must be bad enough about me that makes this thing happen. 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:54.400 I knew that I wasn't responsible for hurting a child 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.800 or anyone, but I'm bad because this is happening and 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:03.280 I have to go away and accept this somehow. 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:08.080 It was just like really defeated feeling. 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:13.720 I really was convinced that I was bad somehow and 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:15.800 that this was supposed to be happening. 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:16.680 To me totally. 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:18.240 And you know what's interesting, I don't know if you 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:21.240 guys know this. There are post it notes that Lucy 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:24.320 let Be wrote where she was like, I'm not good enough, 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:25.240 I am evil? 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:27.840 Wow, yeah what about you? 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:28.160 Anna? 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:31.520 It wasn't so much I'm thinking I'm a bad person. 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:35.280 But what it did make me do is start questioning 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:39.360 my faith. M Am I going through this because God 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:42.240 doesn't like it? You know? Am I going against my 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:45.680 faith and what I should be right living as a woman, 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:47.480 getting married, had and children. 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:50.440 I mean, it's a crazy thing that's happening to us, right, Like, 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:54.360 it's a crazy thing that is happening, and your brain 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:56.280 is trying to make sense of it. I like, how 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:58.600 do you make sense of it? It just does not 0:16:58.760 --> 0:16:59.720 make any sense. 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.680 Yeah, I was like clinging on to things like what 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.600 did I do in my past life? You know, totally Harma, 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:10.359 but ultimately, you know, feeling like I'm just this is 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:12.879 where I belong? How this is where I belong. 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:14.919 Yeah, that's funny that you say that, Heidi, because I 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:18.080 felt that same way after, you know, a certain time, 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:21.439 all the way in prison. I was like, you know what, 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:23.679 I need to stop asking why because I'll never know. 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:30.920 I wish I could tell you that. This episode features 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:34.600 an interview with Lucy herself. I've written to her in 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:37.879 prison and to her family, and spoken with her lawyer 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:41.320 on several occasions, and she and her team have decided 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:43.720 that now is not the time for her to speak 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:47.199 out publicly. No one else knows the stakes of that 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:55.080 decision better than them. It would be nice if verdicts 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.840 were only as strong as the evidence and interpretation reached 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:04.440 by a jury. Sadly, that's often not the case. I 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:08.280 know plenty of Innocence Project attorneys who have to turn 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:12.960 down strong cases for innocence because there's no viable procedural 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:17.320 route to freedom. I get messages all the time from 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:22.480 people stuck inside claiming innocence, some of whom have exhausted 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:26.720 all their appeals. There's little I can do to help 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:31.320 them because in the US or the UK, there is 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:36.639 no right to being free just because you're innocent. There's 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:41.040 only a right to a fair trial. As of today, 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:46.879 Lucy Letby's convictions still stand and she's been refused permission 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:51.640 to appeal through the Court of Appeal, but for her 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:56.480 current lawyer, Mark MacDonald, the case is far from over. 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:01.760 So there's two elements to this. The first element is 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:05.560 the most important element. You don't undo a conviction unless 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.000 you have the legal arguments and the expertise to be 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:10.280 able to do so, and so that's with all the 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.800 expert reports than an expert sort have come forward from 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:19.360 across the world. The second is to change the narrative 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:26.359 around her to use that media storm and ferrari that 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:29.679 was around her when she was convicted and to turn 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:34.359 the story. And the reason for that is because we 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:39.520 do have a system in this country post conviction system 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:44.320 which many argue is not fit for purpose, that innocent 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.760 people do remain in prison and that the system has 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:48.520 let them down. 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:52.760 According to Mark, Lucy's path back to the Court of 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:57.320 Appeals runs through the Criminal Cases Review Commission, the body 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:02.760 tasked with reviewing potential miscarriage of justice. He says that 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:08.199 in recent years the Commission has faced mounting criticism, particularly 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:13.320 after several wrongful convictions were overturned despite earlier decisions not 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:15.639 to refer those cases back to court. 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:17.919 And as a result, a number of people have had 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:22.320 to resign and there's a massive spotlight on them. So 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:25.240 there's that, and there's a criminal Court of Appeal, and 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.439 this is my view, that feels a reluctance to go 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:32.600 behind a jury's verdict. That they seem that there's a 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:36.919 finality to a jury system and as a result are 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:41.200 reluctant to really interfere with that, even when there can 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:46.080 be compelling evidence or conviction is unsafe and we as 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:48.880 defense balanced, as I've often given a hard time when 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:51.600 we get to the court of appeal by the judges 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:54.720 because we're seen as people that shouldn't be interfering with 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:59.359 the system almost And if you are somebody that has 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:04.960 a strong narrative of guilt around you, then you're finding 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:08.720 both those bodies really against you right from the beginning. 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:12.520 And so it's important to get an alternative narrative, and 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:15.760 they're not a false altenative plan, not a pretend narrative, 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:18.399 but simply tell the truth as to what's going on. 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:20.639 In exposing the issues. 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:25.720 For Mark, it's clear the media played a powerful role 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:31.080 in amplifying the story of Lucy Ledby's guilt. Now he's 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:34.560 using that same platform to scrutinize the case. 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:38.000 And so yes, there's been a campaign in the media 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:41.800 to which I have fronted and have driven it intentionally. 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:45.240 But as I say, if you don't have the legal 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:48.840 argument in the first place, doesn't matter about anything else 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:52.639 in relation to the media, You're just not going to 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:57.720 win that legal element. The expert element is the priority. 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:03.080 It's the pairing of expert testimony and media scrutiny that 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:08.439 he believes creates momentum. That's where doctor Shulee and the 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:14.320 international panel come in independent specialists whose findings challenged the 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:18.120 original medical narrative and who were willing to stand by 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:19.720 those conclusions publicly. 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:23.720 He contacted me and said, look, if we find that 0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:25.800 actually she is guilty, they're not going to say it. 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:30.119 So Lucy had a decision does she go with that? 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:34.240 But as you heard in the last episode, in. 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:39.160 All opinion, the medical opinion, the medical evidence doesn't support 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:41.400 murder in any of these babies. 0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:46.200 But challenging a conviction in public is always a risk, 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:49.840 even if you have the expert testimony to back it up. 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:55.840 Mark's arguments were met with sharp scrutiny, particularly around the 0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:57.840 families of the children who died. 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:01.880 I often get an interview what about the families? And 0:23:02.040 --> 0:23:04.560 the one thing I've said now is I have over 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:07.679 one thousand pages of expert evidence from twenty four separate 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:10.760 individual experts. I am happy to give them to the 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:12.520 families and they can say it. And I am happy 0:23:12.560 --> 0:23:15.600 to provide the neonatologists to sit with them in the 0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:18.720 room and explain the issues of where things have gone wrong, 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:22.480 number one. But number two, it's about getting to the truth. 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:26.320 What these parents want to know, What they desperately want 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:29.320 to know is what happened to their child. You see, 0:23:29.480 --> 0:23:31.600 first of all, they started off with the fact that 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:34.720 their child has died, and they've had to go for 0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:38.000 the grief of losing their child. And then years later 0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:39.840 somebody has come to them and said, in fact, we 0:23:39.880 --> 0:23:43.119 think your child was intentionally hurt and murdered. And then 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:46.520 they've had to sit through a trial and sometimes given 0:23:46.560 --> 0:23:49.520 evidence in front of the jury in that trial, and 0:23:49.560 --> 0:23:52.480 then she's been convicted of it. And then in a 0:23:52.560 --> 0:23:54.680 lung comes mart McDonald and said, I think this conviction 0:23:54.840 --> 0:23:56.680 might be unsafe, and I think she may be innocent. 0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:06.200 Whatever happens next in Lucy Ledbe's case, one fact does 0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:12.679 not change. Parents lost their children and families continue to 0:24:12.720 --> 0:24:18.399 live with that loss. Legal challenges may move forward, appeals 0:24:18.480 --> 0:24:23.600 may be argued, evidence may be re examined, but grief 0:24:24.200 --> 0:24:26.200 does not depend on a verdict. 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:28.960 And they can be angry, and they have a right 0:24:29.160 --> 0:24:32.240 to be angry, but they need you know, I would 0:24:32.280 --> 0:24:34.240 say they have to be angry with the right people, 0:24:34.320 --> 0:24:37.199 because if she is innocent, that what has happened, what 0:24:37.280 --> 0:24:40.320 has gone so wrong both with the police, both the 0:24:40.359 --> 0:24:43.080 prosecution and the health service that they've been so let 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:47.800 down because the one thing that Sheley has identified is 0:24:47.880 --> 0:24:53.400 a systematic poor healthcare for medical staff towards their children. 0:24:55.160 --> 0:24:58.040 This is one of the hardest parts of any wrongful 0:24:58.080 --> 0:25:02.600 conviction case. The families of the victim grasp onto the 0:25:02.640 --> 0:25:05.959 answer given to them as a source of closure, and 0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:09.800 then when an innocence claim arises, it's like that closure 0:25:09.960 --> 0:25:15.199 is being ripped away. In my own case, the Kircher 0:25:15.280 --> 0:25:17.600 family has made it clear through their lawyer that they 0:25:17.680 --> 0:25:22.159 still doubt my innocence. I understand why it's difficult for 0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:24.440 them to let go of the answers offered to them, 0:25:24.960 --> 0:25:28.840 however wrong they were, and they are not outliers in 0:25:28.880 --> 0:25:33.280 any way. In most wrongful conviction cases I've studied, the 0:25:33.320 --> 0:25:36.760 families of the victim hold firm to the narrative originally 0:25:36.800 --> 0:25:40.600 offered to them by the prosecution. If Lucy let Be 0:25:40.880 --> 0:25:45.760 is innocent, then that means that hospital administrators and Cheshire 0:25:45.760 --> 0:25:50.800 police and the prosecutors and judges have denied them closure 0:25:51.440 --> 0:25:55.639 and instead thrown them into years of having to publicly 0:25:55.760 --> 0:25:59.800 relive their trauma of having answers given and taken a 0:25:59.840 --> 0:26:06.600 way that is psychological torture. That no grieving parent deserves. 0:26:09.200 --> 0:26:12.920 In recent months, the Crown Prosecution Service announced it would 0:26:12.960 --> 0:26:18.320 not pursue several remaining charges against Lucy let Be. Prosecutors 0:26:18.359 --> 0:26:21.199 said the evidence in those cases would not meet the 0:26:21.240 --> 0:26:26.800 threshold required for conviction, the standard of proof beyond reasonable doubt. 0:26:27.200 --> 0:26:31.840 Some of that evidence overlapped with material previously examined in court, 0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:38.280 including in the case of Baby k Peter Elston, a 0:26:38.400 --> 0:26:41.960 scientist and reporter, was one of the very first voices 0:26:42.040 --> 0:26:45.639 to express concern about the case, even before the first 0:26:45.640 --> 0:26:49.679 trial had finished. He was arguably instrumental in getting the 0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:54.199 pro Lucy let Be movement started. For Peter, this newest 0:26:54.240 --> 0:26:58.520 decision by the CPS signals to something very important. 0:27:00.880 --> 0:27:10.520 November twenty twenty were brought by the Merseyside the Regional CPS, whereas. 0:27:09.720 --> 0:27:12.840 This recent announcement was made by. 0:27:12.760 --> 0:27:17.600 The Serious Crime and counter Terrorism Unit of the CPS, 0:27:17.640 --> 0:27:19.720 which is a national. 0:27:19.359 --> 0:27:20.480 Part of the CPS. 0:27:20.760 --> 0:27:24.359 The original decision to bring charges should not have been 0:27:24.400 --> 0:27:29.640 made by the Merseyside branch of the CPS or complex 0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:35.760 serious cases charging decision has to be made by the 0:27:35.800 --> 0:27:38.600 Serious Crime Division of the CPS. 0:27:39.000 --> 0:27:40.880 So why it. 0:27:40.880 --> 0:27:46.720 Was made by the regional CPS is a really important 0:27:46.800 --> 0:27:53.040 question that needs answering because if the strength of the 0:27:53.119 --> 0:27:58.520