Speaker 1: People always want to be right you know what you mean,
Speaker 1: and be like, well, you made the wrong decisions. Let's
Speaker 1: show the world how these people made the wrong decision.
Speaker 1: But it's more complex than that.
Speaker 2: Hey, BD translated listeners and welcome to another episode. This week,
Speaker 2: we're going to be discussing another touchy subject in the
Speaker 2: trans community, detransition, or as the more optimistically minded put it,
Speaker 2: re transition. I'm talking with a former transman. Her name
Speaker 2: is Alia. We're going to get into the politics and
Speaker 2: perspectives from within and beyond the trans community and hopefully
Speaker 2: break down the barriers we face and having these conversations.
Speaker 2: So this week on the pod, I have a guest
Speaker 2: with me by the name of Alia. They are not
Speaker 2: based in the South this time. You'll hear a little
Speaker 2: something in their accient when they talk. But Alia has
Speaker 2: transitioned and detransitioned, and I brought them onto the show
Speaker 2: to talk about their experience. Alia, Welcome to the pod.
Speaker 2: How are you doing today?
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I'm doing well. I'm very excited.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of things that I think you
Speaker 1: and I haven't common outside of the trends world.
Speaker 3: So it's going to be a good conversation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and by that you mean, of course you're professionally
Speaker 2: a barber, is that right?
Speaker 1: Yes, I am a barber that's based in Detroit, Michigan.
Speaker 1: Very much loved my career, but I can see how
Speaker 1: it intertwines into my day today.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And of course you know, I come from
Speaker 2: a background of being in the beauty industry also, and
Speaker 2: I was in love with that at the time. Now
Speaker 2: I'm in love with podcasting because I get to do
Speaker 2: it from my closet.
Speaker 3: But it will be my next love.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to work into that eventually one day too.
Speaker 3: So I'm not far behind you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean everybody's got a podcast these days, right now.
Speaker 2: So you told us a little bit about like you.
Speaker 2: So you're from Detroit, Michigan, you're a barber. Can you
Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about your transition story if
Speaker 2: you want to get into that a little bit.
Speaker 1: So, I socially started transitioning and that is more so
Speaker 1: changing my name, having a you know, different appearance as
Speaker 1: well when I was about seventeen eighteen years old, and
Speaker 1: I started medically transitioning, which is going on hormones and
Speaker 1: getting surgery between the ages of twenty and twenty one,
Speaker 1: so that would have been back in twenty fifteen, is
Speaker 1: when I started my medical transition.
Speaker 2: At that time, the name you're using at that time
Speaker 2: was Lisa. Is that correct?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: So I actually was still using my birth name, which
Speaker 1: is Alia, up until about six months into my transition,
Speaker 1: and that's when I decided to change my name to Isa,
Speaker 1: which still is kind of like a gender neutral name
Speaker 1: and a sense. But I am a Lebanese and so
Speaker 1: Alia is a feminine name and Lisa is a male name.
Speaker 2: So two beautiful names and they actually sound beautiful when
Speaker 2: they're said together. Also, so thank you, thank you. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I love the background history there also. Okay, so
Speaker 2: you started your social transition when you were about seventeen
Speaker 2: or eighteen, you started your medical transition, you said it
Speaker 2: in about twenty fifteen. Yeah, and then I know that
Speaker 2: you're pretty active like vocally as a trans advocate a
Speaker 2: trans spokesperson. But then kind of along the way something
Speaker 2: started to feel like not right. So when was that
Speaker 2: and when did you start to notice that this may
Speaker 2: have not been right for you?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I like to compare to when I did first go
Speaker 1: through my transitions, so you know, you know, it's never
Speaker 1: just this, Okay, I woke up today and it's different, right,
Speaker 1: Like a series of moments happened and you're like, Okay,
Speaker 1: this isn't feeling right and this is it and it
Speaker 1: just collects.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: So, for a long time throughout my transition, I would
Speaker 1: say probably at the three or four year mark, I
Speaker 1: was having those moments that were increasing right of hm,
Speaker 1: I'm not really feeling like I did my first and
Speaker 1: second year on hormones, and even to the sense of oh,
Speaker 1: I still feel this way even though I've been on
Speaker 1: hormones for four years and then it was five years.
Speaker 1: But I had so many distractions work, friends, and things
Speaker 1: like that that I was able to kind of push
Speaker 1: it to the side for a while. And then when
Speaker 1: the pandemic hit, that's when I really sat with my
Speaker 1: feelings for the first time in a probably in my life,
Speaker 1: to be honest, and I really dissected those feelings. I
Speaker 1: did a little bit of hypnotherapy for some inner child work.
Speaker 1: I had some childhood traumas that I needed to work
Speaker 1: through that I never did even prior to my transition.
Speaker 1: That very much contributed to my transition, and that's when
Speaker 1: I decided that it was time to kind of make
Speaker 1: a change, maybe go back to square one again and
Speaker 1: try again and see how that makes me feel.
Speaker 2: So that going back to square one for you meant
Speaker 2: just presenting more femininely again in.
Speaker 1: A sense, because I was so I was still a
Speaker 1: very gender fluid child.
Speaker 3: I mean, I was a tomboy.
Speaker 1: Once I went into high school, I started becoming more feminine,
Speaker 1: and then right like towards the end of high school
Speaker 1: and going into college, I was really masculine. So I
Speaker 1: had been all of these expressions, but I think back
Speaker 1: to square one was more so how I was before
Speaker 1: I started getting back into my masculine appearance, like even
Speaker 1: just the socially transitioning part, and I missed it. I
Speaker 1: missed being feminine. I was suppressing my femininity for a
Speaker 1: long time. So I think it was also a lot
Speaker 1: of curiosity of like, what does that look like for
Speaker 1: me as a twenty seven year old adults now.
Speaker 2: Right, who had been transitioning for how long at that time?
Speaker 3: About seven years?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah. I think during the pandemic, I call it
Speaker 2: the Great egg Cracking of twenty twenty, we saw a
Speaker 2: lot of people transitioning in twenty twenty specifically due to
Speaker 2: the pandemic. And I think it's interesting how on kind
Speaker 2: of the reverse end of that, as a trans person
Speaker 2: who had been transitioning, you had reflected on that, or had,
Speaker 2: like you said, the first time ever had the chance
Speaker 2: to reflect on those things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was very much unexpected when I made a
Speaker 1: decision to transition. I mean, that was a big decision,
Speaker 1: and I never could foresee that I was ever going
Speaker 1: to reverse that decision. Well, so at the time when
Speaker 1: I transitioned, de transitioning wasn't spoken about. I didn't even
Speaker 1: know that that was a thing, to be honest. So
Speaker 1: I think that that probably prolonged my transition was because
Speaker 1: I just didn't know about it. I think I was
Speaker 1: just like, Okay, I made the decision, and it's changed
Speaker 1: my life so drastically that like, this is my decision
Speaker 1: for the rest of my life. And when I reached
Speaker 1: that point seven years in my transition and I felt
Speaker 1: that way, I became severely depressed. I didn't know that
Speaker 1: I could go back, and so until I actually realized
Speaker 1: that I could, that was kind of like this kind
Speaker 1: of saved my life in a sense, you know. And
Speaker 1: I think in the same way that hormones. The first
Speaker 1: time did, I was severely depressed and didn't know how
Speaker 1: to express myself. And I think my sexuality being attracted
Speaker 1: to pretty much anyone kind of confused me as well,
Speaker 1: because the only relationships I saw growing up were between
Speaker 1: a man and a woman, and so that kind of
Speaker 1: reflected into, you know, my thoughts of my own relationships.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thank you for being so open about the
Speaker 2: like you're saying, like that sounds like a very hard
Speaker 2: realization to face as a trans person.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you make such a decision, you're so sure
Speaker 1: of it, and then all of a sudden you're like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I don't know if I'm so sure
Speaker 1: of this. Yeah, I do want to add, you know,
Speaker 1: just because I made that decision, it doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: my feelings of gender dysphoria and body dysmorphya are gone.
Speaker 1: I just found new ways to cope with it within
Speaker 1: society and in the body that I am in, with
Speaker 1: the roles that are placed on us and all of that.
Speaker 1: It just was easier, not even just socially, but you know,
Speaker 1: giving yourself an injection every week or every two weeks
Speaker 1: and keeping up with like that was a lot. It's
Speaker 1: a lot of work, it is, And I just realized
Speaker 1: that being a trans man in this world was not
Speaker 1: a good experience for me. As far as continuing that,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm very grateful, I'm glad that I experienced
Speaker 1: STA but I just realized, I was, like, I don't
Speaker 1: want to be a trans man in today's society and world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that is understandable. I mean, today's
Speaker 2: society is not great to trans individuals.
Speaker 1: I mean, anyone with any type of fluidity that's out
Speaker 1: of the binary. It is a very difficult journey to
Speaker 1: be in.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely I can totally relate to it on that
Speaker 2: end for sure. Yeah, I mean a little bit of
Speaker 2: my own backstory, but you know, I dropped out of
Speaker 2: school because I was trans. I didn't go to college,
Speaker 2: And you know, I don't regret those things per se,
Speaker 2: but those are like those external factors that can really
Speaker 2: really dissuade you. For one reason or another. The trans
Speaker 2: community is seemingly put at odds with detransitioning trans people.
Speaker 2: Right wing media uses their narratives as reason to question
Speaker 2: the villainalidity of transidentities and to encourage the demand for
Speaker 2: limitations on access to gender affirming care for trans people,
Speaker 2: and unfortunately, some of those that are regretful, upset, and
Speaker 2: hurt will be the ones given the spotlight to push
Speaker 2: an anti trans narrative that we see manifest on both
Speaker 2: sides of the political zeitgeist. While Republicans are busy making
Speaker 2: the worst and the majority of the anti trans legislation
Speaker 2: in this country, it shouldn't be downplayed that even otherwise
Speaker 2: liberal minded people also wish trans people would disappear. This
Speaker 2: is what makes it a touching subject for trans people,
Speaker 2: but to me, they're part of the trans community. It
Speaker 2: shouldn't be downplayed that even a D transition is a
Speaker 2: transition that takes work too. Kind of getting more into
Speaker 2: the topic of D transition, because this is kind of
Speaker 2: a topic that in the trans community. Outside of the
Speaker 2: trans community, it is a topic that makes people nervous.
Speaker 2: I think it makes trans people nervous to talk about it,
Speaker 2: and sometimes it makes people nervous to talk about it.
Speaker 1: Also, shoot, it makes the people be transitioning nervous to
Speaker 1: talk about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I just kind of want to unpack,
Speaker 2: like why that is? Why do you think that is?
Speaker 1: I think one there's so much. There's so much like
Speaker 1: you better be making the right decision, like this is
Speaker 1: for the rest of your life. You better be doing this,
Speaker 1: like you said, you want this, you know, and whether
Speaker 1: that's from your peers, your coworkers, your parents, your romantic partners, whatever, right,
Speaker 1: you're like, oh my god, I don't want to be
Speaker 1: wrong about this or I don't want to change my
Speaker 1: mind because I now have spent this money, I have
Speaker 1: now changed my life. I now have people call me
Speaker 1: something else. And I said, this is who I am,
Speaker 1: and I am so one hundred about that, right, not
Speaker 1: even I just felt so because I was one hundred
Speaker 1: percent about that, right.
Speaker 3: And so now you're go by.
Speaker 1: You have different experiences, you meet new people, you have
Speaker 1: new conversations, you start dissecting gender even more, you know,
Speaker 1: and all these things, and you realize, well, maybe this
Speaker 1: isn't the route that I want to be on. But
Speaker 1: now you have to go and tell everyone that you
Speaker 1: already told who you were that okay, that's not who
Speaker 1: I am. This is different. And I think that's the biggest,
Speaker 1: biggest reason. And then you have a lot of shame
Speaker 1: and guilt that, oh my god, I changed my entire
Speaker 1: life and it didn't work for me, and so you
Speaker 1: feel kind of like a failure in a sense, and
Speaker 1: that can contribute to it. And I think that all
Speaker 1: of these feelings are ours, and sometimes you like to
Speaker 1: project them unto other people, which I can understand because
Speaker 1: when you say you have these feelings and you know
Speaker 1: you don't know what to do with them, and you
Speaker 1: go to a medical professional and they say, okay, well,
Speaker 1: this is the protocol for that. You know, like, this
Speaker 1: is how you feel, and what I've read, the experiences
Speaker 1: that I've had, I the people that I've talked to
Speaker 1: that are other medical professionals, they say, this is what
Speaker 1: you have to do in order to combat those feelings, right,
Speaker 1: And they do that with any medication and with any
Speaker 1: surg or regardless if you're trans. They say, okay, you
Speaker 1: have depression, you have ADHD, you know, this is what
Speaker 1: you go on. And it doesn't work for everyone. And
Speaker 1: I think that for a long time that wasn't really
Speaker 1: thought of when it came to the trans experience. So
Speaker 1: many people were changing their life and doing all of
Speaker 1: these things right and having.
Speaker 3: Great experiences with it.
Speaker 1: But even then in twenty fifteen, like I said, I
Speaker 1: would detransitioning was never talked about, and you can see
Speaker 1: it in this way as well as Imagine you're a
Speaker 1: therapist or a doctor and you're listening to someone and
Speaker 1: they say these feelings and you say, okay, this is
Speaker 1: what you need to do, and they do that, and
Speaker 1: you've helped them do that, right, and then all of
Speaker 1: a sudden they change your mind. How do you think
Speaker 1: that person like you are going to feel as a
Speaker 1: medical professional, You're going to think, oh my god, I
Speaker 1: messed up.
Speaker 3: And that's a really hard feeling to grasp.
Speaker 1: But we're all trying to make the best decisions with
Speaker 1: the information that we're given, right, And so I can't
Speaker 1: say I'm mad at that therapist and I need to
Speaker 1: go against them or anything like that. Like I have
Speaker 1: to trust that they were trying to do the best thing.
Speaker 1: But at the all, the whole turnaround of all that
Speaker 1: with having that compassion and empathy for you know, us
Speaker 1: being human beings, right, the medical fields and big farm
Speaker 1: on all that they are profiting heavy off of a
Speaker 1: lot of body modifications in general. Right, how many people
Speaker 1: do you see getting filler knows jobs bb out all
Speaker 1: these different things within the beauty industry to tie that in.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of money that they're making off of this.
Speaker 1: So maybe the therapist is being really empathetic and they're
Speaker 1: understanding and all those things, but the surgeon just needs
Speaker 1: that letter from that therapist, so they're not inquiring on
Speaker 1: how you feel, and they're just doing the surgery. And
Speaker 1: those surgeries start to cost a lot of money. Hormone
Speaker 1: start to cost a lot of money if your insurances
Speaker 1: and co you know, all of these different aspects to it.
Speaker 1: So I can see someone getting very angry and being like,
Speaker 1: we need to stop this or need to figure this out.
Speaker 1: But on the other contrast of that, it works for
Speaker 1: some people and we can't forget that, you know. And
Speaker 1: so I think, like with all of those things on it,
Speaker 1: it's like it is a very hard conversation to talk
Speaker 1: about because it will never be black and white. It
Speaker 1: is a very gray area and always will be and
Speaker 1: just accepting that is what's going to I think help
Speaker 1: a lot of people.
Speaker 2: And I completely agree. I completely agree, because I think
Speaker 2: we just need to accept that it's a normal part,
Speaker 2: like detransition is a normal part of the trans experience
Speaker 2: in the sense that, like you said, it's not necessarily
Speaker 2: for every person and that's okay, that's perfectly fine. And
Speaker 2: I think it takes a lot of strength to be
Speaker 2: able to say that, because, like you said, you have
Speaker 2: all these external factors, have the external factors of society,
Speaker 2: society telling you you're wrong for being trands to begin with,
Speaker 2: but then you have the external factor of all the
Speaker 2: people that you've got to support you in being trans
Speaker 2: and in your transition that you know, like you said,
Speaker 2: have to go and explain this to So we touched
Speaker 2: on it a little bit. But people do transition decide
Speaker 2: that it's not for them. They do get angry at
Speaker 2: their medical providers, their therapists, things like that, and the
Speaker 2: media really takes onto those stories. What does the media
Speaker 2: or what do people get wrong about de transition.
Speaker 1: So my first ever therapist, the thirty minutes into our
Speaker 1: first ever session, said I know your trends. If I
Speaker 1: could give you the hormones today, I would And that
Speaker 1: was like I was like, WHOA hold up? And I
Speaker 1: was like in my mind, I was thinking, you know
Speaker 1: nothing about me, Like I didn't even really get into
Speaker 1: the nitty gritty of it, Like I haven't even really
Speaker 1: told you you know, it's only been thirty minutes an hour.
Speaker 1: And I didn't go back to them, and I went
Speaker 1: to another therapist, and I spent six weeks at that therapist,
Speaker 1: and at the end of it, she was like, I
Speaker 1: don't think that you're not trans. She's like, but I
Speaker 1: think you have a lot of things that you need
Speaker 1: to work through before you add this big life change
Speaker 1: to your situation. And I didn't want to hear that.
Speaker 1: I wanted to hear, Okay, you can have hormones now.
Speaker 1: And six months had gone by since I saw that
Speaker 1: first therapist, and I made an appointment with her and
Speaker 1: she said, even though I haven't seen you in six months,
Speaker 1: you still identify the same. I can write you your
Speaker 1: letter today, and so she did. And so that was
Speaker 1: my experience, Right, So I had one therapist that was
Speaker 1: like ready to just give it to me, and then
Speaker 1: I had another therapist was like, no, I don't feel
Speaker 1: calm put in into that. So there's those kinds, like
Speaker 1: everyone has a different experience within that, right, Like people
Speaker 1: don't want to gatekeep and then but people don't want
Speaker 1: to just give them out, Like it's just it's really
Speaker 1: based on who the medical professional is and so sometimes
Speaker 1: people in the media will talk to that person that's
Speaker 1: ready to give them out and then or they'll talk
Speaker 1: to someone who's gatekeeping a little bit right, And so
Speaker 1: they pick and choose which side they want to show
Speaker 1: a bit right, and they always want to say I
Speaker 1: told you. So people always want to be right, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, and be like, well, you made
Speaker 1: the wrong decision. Let's show the world how these people
Speaker 1: made the wrong decision. But it's more complex than that,
Speaker 1: because I still have the genderness for you, I still
Speaker 1: have a body dys morphia that never went away. So
Speaker 1: it's not you're right and I'm wrong. I just chose
Speaker 1: to perceive my situation differently and now deal with it
Speaker 1: differently than what the protocol has been for a long time.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of people that don't want people
Speaker 1: to medically transition, for whatever their reasons may be, and
Speaker 1: they'll use that as Okay, well you're going to just
Speaker 1: de transition anyways. But the thing is is and like,
Speaker 1: even if they do transition, it's like and like it's
Speaker 1: not like every single person that goes on hormones de transitions.
Speaker 1: They're just taking those big stories. And also it's new
Speaker 1: right now in a sense new right, And what I
Speaker 1: mean by new is no one was talking about it
Speaker 1: before a couple of years ago. Now it's even more
Speaker 1: And I'd like to think that I contributed to making
Speaker 1: people feel comfortable to talk about it, you know, and
Speaker 1: not look at it as a negative thing. Just look
Speaker 1: at it like it just comes to acceptance.
Speaker 2: But I did want to ask you because it kind
Speaker 2: of sounds like when you were living as a trans
Speaker 2: man in that moment, you don't think of yourself as
Speaker 2: living authentically for that period of time. Is that how
Speaker 2: I'm understanding it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, I think that's like a perfect way. I
Speaker 1: think like in every moment that I've lived my life,
Speaker 1: I've tried to live it as authentic as I could, right,
Speaker 1: based on all of those experiences and feelings.
Speaker 3: And so obviously as humans.
Speaker 1: Like we can feel regret and things like that, but
Speaker 1: I choose not to for my life. There are things
Speaker 1: that I can say like, oh, like I made a
Speaker 1: mistake or I shouldn't have done that, but I can't
Speaker 1: go back and change it.
Speaker 3: So that's where the acceptance comes in.
Speaker 1: I have to accept that that moment, that's the decision
Speaker 1: that I made so now that things have changed, whatever
Speaker 1: it may be, how can I feel better about it
Speaker 1: in this moment? And that's just like having compassion for
Speaker 1: yourself as a human being. I mean, no one's got
Speaker 1: the manual, you know, we don't know how to live
Speaker 1: in this world.
Speaker 3: We're just trying our best to.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's incredible because thank you. You're kind
Speaker 2: of on a journey now similar to the one that
Speaker 2: you were on previously when you were transitioning masculinizing. I
Speaker 2: guess in that sense, now you're doing laser hair removal
Speaker 2: and stuff like that, and I still find it refreshing
Speaker 2: to hear, like, even though you are still spending money
Speaker 2: to kind of get back to square one, as you said,
Speaker 2: I find it refreshing that you still don't look at
Speaker 2: it as like a necessarily a negative and you find
Speaker 2: that acceptance in the experience.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I guess like I would have never known if I
Speaker 1: didn't do it, you know, and it would have always
Speaker 1: been on my mind. I've always been a very curious person,
Speaker 1: but I've always been a person who was like, if
Speaker 1: I wanted something, I was going to go and get it.
Speaker 1: And when I transitioned medically, like if my mom always says,
Speaker 1: she's like, if you're going to do something, she's like,
Speaker 1: you do it one hundred percent, you know, like one
Speaker 1: hundred and ten. And that's what I did. I needed
Speaker 1: to fully immerse myself and that identity and experience it.
Speaker 1: And for a while I did like it, and then
Speaker 1: I realized I didn't. In the moment that I realized
Speaker 1: that I didn't, I had to change that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've done it with my careers. I've done it with
Speaker 1: different things, Like I want to be happy and feel
Speaker 1: fulfilled in every moment that I am living on this earth,
Speaker 1: and so I try my bus to do it in
Speaker 1: all different ways outside of even feeling comfortable in my body,
Speaker 1: you know, right, And I think we all should do that,
Speaker 1: you know, like in whatever way that they translates.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think that that's, like I said, just
Speaker 2: a refreshing perspective. And I appreciate that we've had a
Speaker 2: lot of discussions this season on the meaning of the
Speaker 2: trans umbrella and who fits in where, But really transness
Speaker 2: doesn't fit into one box. There is no one way
Speaker 2: that a person transitions. There's no one way to be
Speaker 2: trans though there are many shared experiences that come with
Speaker 2: being trans. There will never be a formula or requirements
Speaker 2: to meet to be trans. No one person can perfectly
Speaker 2: embody any gender to meet the requirements of the gender binary,
Speaker 2: even SIS people, but this is especially stressful for trans individuals.
Speaker 2: Part of the motivation for Alia's d transitioning What do
Speaker 2: you think trans people? What kinds of misconceptions or things
Speaker 2: do you hear from trans people about de transition?
Speaker 1: The biggest I feel like is a lot of trans
Speaker 1: people the first thing that always say is you were
Speaker 1: never trans, don't talk about this, and you're just CIS.
Speaker 1: And it's like kind of funny to me because I'm
Speaker 1: just like, you're throwing these terms out like they are
Speaker 1: kind of negative things, even with saying like you're just SIS.
Speaker 3: But it's like that's not.
Speaker 1: Right, and so it's like it's this weird way that
Speaker 1: they word it. And I think that a lot of
Speaker 1: times they think, like all d transition are like they'll
Speaker 1: be like they're bad, don't listen to their stories, or
Speaker 1: they're trying to take away trans rites by telling their stories,
Speaker 1: you know, and things of that, and it's it's like
Speaker 1: but really not like maybe there are some which even
Speaker 1: with those people I understand their frustration. I understand their anger,
Speaker 1: and I understand their hurt, and I'm sure that they're
Speaker 1: not having a good time with their family members or
Speaker 1: significant others or friends or anything like that with the
Speaker 1: whole I told you sew and shaking the finger and
Speaker 1: we're humans and they're letting out their anger and their
Speaker 1: frustration and I get it, but it's not going to
Speaker 1: help the situation because that's like screaming like abstinence when
Speaker 1: like everyone's having sex and it's just like let's use
Speaker 1: some condoms, you know, like things like that. It's like
Speaker 1: it's not going to happen. So let's talk about it
Speaker 1: and realize that people are still going to do the
Speaker 1: things that they're going to do. They're still going to transition,
Speaker 1: They're still going to in any way that that is,
Speaker 1: you know, So let's just talk a little bit more
Speaker 1: and educate that there are a lot of other sides
Speaker 1: to this. I think that's probably the biggest and a
Speaker 1: lot of people de transition for many a different reason.
Speaker 1: It could be hormones don't work with well with their body.
Speaker 1: It could mean that they don't want to go through surgery.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a very traumatic thing to put your
Speaker 1: body through any surgery, you know, Like there's so many
Speaker 1: different things. Social interactions are just like yeah, realizing like
Speaker 1: me living this life, I'm not enjoying my social interactions
Speaker 1: with people, whether it be romantic, platonic, anything like that,
Speaker 1: Like this isn't fun for me. And that's real living
Speaker 1: in this world as the opposite gender or something in
Speaker 1: between that whether it's social or medical, it's hard, you know.
Speaker 1: And so like a lot of people would be like,
Speaker 1: you know, you have courage to go back, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: you got courage to stay, you know, like because that
Speaker 1: is hard. There's a lot of stigma around that on
Speaker 1: both sides, you know, definitely, So I would say that's
Speaker 1: the biggest Like I said, I still have gender dysphor
Speaker 1: you Like, I'm gonna be very honest with you, if
Speaker 1: I woke up tomorrow as a six foot five man
Speaker 1: with you know, all the superficial physical action, it's like
Speaker 1: I probably would have felt more comfortable. But getting like
Speaker 1: thinking about getting bottom surgery and things like that, like
Speaker 1: it was really scary to me, and I saw a
Speaker 1: lot of complications you know, and things like that. I
Speaker 1: don't think it happens to everyone, but it's a big chance.
Speaker 1: And so I still have moments where I see myself
Speaker 1: as ASA and I use that just to kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, my masculine identity in a sense, like I
Speaker 1: still feel like that. It's just I'm five foot three,
Speaker 1: I'm very curvy, I am flamboyant in my speech, you know,
Speaker 1: different things that it just I'm translated better in society
Speaker 1: as a feminine person who's deemed as a woman or
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call me. In a sense, I
Speaker 1: just feel like my interactions are a lot easier sometimes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand that, which.
Speaker 3: Sucks, you know, Like, no, it sucks, you know.
Speaker 2: No, that's really touching. I'm sorry. I just made me
Speaker 2: cheer up a little bit.
Speaker 3: Oh, I appreciate. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I tend to cry with some people on my videos
Speaker 1: and chat, so I get that.
Speaker 2: No, yeah, you're fine. No, I completely understand that. I'm
Speaker 2: going to take a quick break really so I can tissue.
Speaker 2: You're okay, and we're back. When talking about transition, the
Speaker 2: focus is often on the physical, but the spiritual kind
Speaker 2: of gets left out. The aspects that are intangible and intrinsic.
Speaker 2: The goal of transitioning socially and medically is so we
Speaker 2: can feel more aligned with our spiritual selves after all,
Speaker 2: But sometimes it doesn't always turn out that way. I
Speaker 2: have known people who have had to de transition for familial,
Speaker 2: societal pressures and things like that. And that is all
Speaker 2: so a reality that is not talked about enough when
Speaker 2: it is talked about in the media and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: Is there is a lot, as you said, lots and
Speaker 2: lots of different reasons why a person chooses to transition,
Speaker 2: and then lots and reasons why a person chooses to detransition.
Speaker 1: Those are hard decisions to make because of like those reasons, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: they suck, you know. But I think for me, I
Speaker 1: just got to the point where I was like, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: this is the body that I'm in, this is what
Speaker 1: I was born into, and this is the world that
Speaker 1: I was born into, Like how can I make the
Speaker 1: best of it? And just like hope that I think
Speaker 1: maybe I look at it as more of like a
Speaker 1: spiritual experience and I'm just in this physical body, you know,
Speaker 1: And so just because maybe my outer shell doesn't showcase
Speaker 1: how I feel on the insight, doesn't mean that that's
Speaker 1: not who I am, and I think that that's what
Speaker 1: I struggled with the most, is I was trying to
Speaker 1: show people who I was in the inside. They weren't
Speaker 1: seeing my heart, my soul, they were just seeing the
Speaker 1: physical parts of me. And that was a reason why
Speaker 1: I transitioned. And I realized that I was doing it
Speaker 1: for all of those reasons and not truly truly, I
Speaker 1: guess what I wanted in that sense.
Speaker 3: But social interactions are a big thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's how you create your identity in a sense,
Speaker 1: you know, And I think like some people get scared
Speaker 1: maybe to say that, but it's real.
Speaker 2: Oh no, I completely agree. I mean, I think it's
Speaker 2: over simplifying thing when we say that we're just born
Speaker 2: this way. You know, that's a really easy thing for
Speaker 2: a lot of people to accept, and it's really easy
Speaker 2: for people to digest and stuff like that. But it's
Speaker 2: a little way. It's a lot more complicated than that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we're born a certain way, but then we are shaped
Speaker 2: by the interactions we have, the relationships we build, the experiences,
Speaker 2: the trauma we have, all of these types of things
Speaker 2: can shape and they do shape who we are. And
Speaker 2: I think that's some that's not talked about enough. Also
Speaker 2: just like saying, you know, an easy blanket statement like
Speaker 2: trans women or women, which is true, but like it's
Speaker 2: a lot more complicated than that.
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, I know what you mean.
Speaker 1: I've had a couple of conversations with people with the
Speaker 1: transmit or men transmit or women, and they are but
Speaker 1: it is complex. And you know what I found from
Speaker 1: d transitioning and a lot of introspection was it's a
Speaker 1: lot of conforming, Like trans women are different from SIS
Speaker 1: women and that's okay, and it's beautiful, Like there's nothing.
Speaker 1: I think we always want to try and fit what
Speaker 1: it means to be a CIS man or a SIST
Speaker 1: woman subconsciously, even when we're saying no, that's not what
Speaker 1: we're doing, but we are in a sense. We want
Speaker 1: to hurry up and get on hormones before puberty. We
Speaker 1: want to hurry up and get these things. I think
Speaker 1: the biggest is the puberty thing, because what there's going
Speaker 1: to be a trans girl that's six to two, there's
Speaker 1: going to be a trans man that's five two, Like,
Speaker 1: what's wrong with it? I think we were trying to
Speaker 1: fit that stereotypical what it means to be a man
Speaker 1: and a woman today, and that can be really harmful
Speaker 1: because it's these beauty standards that we're trying to keep
Speaker 1: up with. And I think as we get older, whether
Speaker 1: we've transitioned or not, we realize none of that matters anymore, right, Like,
Speaker 1: this is who you are, this is how I look.
Speaker 1: I might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I
Speaker 1: might be theirs. And you start to accept a lot
Speaker 1: of your differences and embrace them a little bit more.
Speaker 2: I will say, everybody's different, you know, and everybody has
Speaker 2: a different experience. I did not get on hormones until
Speaker 2: I was eighteen, but I was dying to get on
Speaker 2: hormones the second puberty started, just because I remember puberty
Speaker 2: being like one of the first traumatic experiences that I
Speaker 2: ever had was yeah, the types of and that was
Speaker 2: when I knew, like, oh my god. But you know again,
Speaker 2: it is different for everybody. And I don't know.
Speaker 3: What party was uncomfor for me too.
Speaker 1: I was a huge tomboy like and I didn't have
Speaker 1: the words when I was younger of what like that meant.
Speaker 1: But I heavily related to the boys around me. I
Speaker 1: wore boys clothes. I didn't see myself different from the
Speaker 1: boys around me, and I can pinpoint the exact moment
Speaker 1: when I realized my breast started to grow and it
Speaker 1: was raining and my shirt clung to my chest. I
Speaker 1: was mortified. I was very uncomfortable. I literally left the
Speaker 1: event that I was at to go home. I was
Speaker 1: about eleven or twelve, and I couldn't explain those feelings,
Speaker 1: like why.
Speaker 3: Did I hate this so much?
Speaker 1: And there were other reasons that I was uncomfortable in
Speaker 1: my body, but that's when I knew. I was like,
Speaker 1: I have to wear a bra now and I'm not
Speaker 1: going to be able to have a flat chest like
Speaker 1: the other boys and just throw on a T shirt.
Speaker 1: I totally relate to you in those moments, you know.
Speaker 1: And when I decided to go on hormones, like that
Speaker 1: was life saving for me in that sense, like I
Speaker 1: was like, I don't want to live this way anymore,
Speaker 1: and that kind of gave me a good amount of
Speaker 1: years that I can see into my future.
Speaker 3: So I definitely relate to you on that for sure.
Speaker 1: I think that we tend to think that people who
Speaker 1: do transition and people who transition are different. People who
Speaker 1: are sistain, people who are trands are different and we
Speaker 1: can't relate on a lot of the same feelings that
Speaker 1: we go through. But I've found from my journey to
Speaker 1: mail and my journey back, and my conversations with trans
Speaker 1: people and de transition people and people who have never
Speaker 1: even transitioned, that we all are experiencing this feeling of
Speaker 1: discomfort with the gender roles that are portrayed on us.
Speaker 1: And sometimes it's a little bit more of a priority
Speaker 1: to us than others. But I think having more of
Speaker 1: an open conversation about those feelings to show, like, hey,
Speaker 1: you know what it feels like to not like to
Speaker 1: go through puberty, but yet you never transition, or you
Speaker 1: know what it feels like to not feel like the
Speaker 1: stereotypical woman or man even though you identify as a
Speaker 1: SIS woman, You're like, I don't look like those girls,
Speaker 1: or vice versa. You know, we're all a lot more
Speaker 1: similar than we think. And just showing that compassion, that
Speaker 1: empathy for the hard decisions that we all have to
Speaker 1: make in life, no matter what it is, that acceptance
Speaker 1: of that we're just human and what's going to happen
Speaker 1: is what's going to happen, So let's just make the
Speaker 1: bust of it.
Speaker 2: You know, I've been transitioning since two thousand and ten,
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine, probably something somewhere around there, socially
Speaker 2: and then medically and all of that. But I feel
Speaker 2: like in recent years there has been this increasing like
Speaker 2: I don't know if I want to call it, like
Speaker 2: rhetoric or whatever, that it's somehow cooler to be trans
Speaker 2: than it is to be SIS, or like it's somehow
Speaker 2: like better or something like that. And I feel like,
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe this is kind of controversial to say,
Speaker 2: but I feel like this same. I mean, I feel
Speaker 2: like the more we say things like that, the more
Speaker 2: we make it harder for people to accept that they
Speaker 2: may not be trans, like in the sense that they
Speaker 2: need to transition, but they may just be having a
Speaker 2: different experience with their gender. Because it's almost like we've
Speaker 2: assigned a value now to being trans where it's like
Speaker 2: seen as somehow better, but it's it's not. I'm surprised
Speaker 2: it's not.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a lot more difficult than what meets the eye, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with CIS people.
Speaker 2: And there's been i think an increasing notion for I've
Speaker 2: seen SIS people saying that the term cis is now
Speaker 2: they consider it a slur, which I think is funny
Speaker 2: because because of the way that it gets used in
Speaker 2: these types of conversations where it's almost as if trans
Speaker 2: is like being upheld is like the golden way to be,
Speaker 2: and like SIS is like meat puny, whereas yeah, it's
Speaker 2: just apples and oranges, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this might be controversy to say, but
Speaker 1: like it has looked like that, you know. I think
Speaker 1: there was a time where if you were gay or bisexual,
Speaker 1: you were a little bit more like looked at differently
Speaker 1: and in some people's eyes as good and some people
Speaker 1: as bad. I think that's the perception, right, there's something
Speaker 1: that is unique about you, there's something that is different,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, you have a community of
Speaker 1: people that feel similar to you, and that feels really good.
Speaker 1: I think that there's also like other ways that that
Speaker 1: has been like Okay, let's get it like really like
Speaker 1: simplified to like if your preppy, your.
Speaker 3: Goth, or you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, there's all these different ways that we deem
Speaker 1: what is cool and what is not. And I think
Speaker 1: that when we're young too. Do we really know what
Speaker 1: it means to be gay? Do we really know what
Speaker 1: it means to be these identities that we are We don't.
Speaker 1: We are looking at the label and how people are
Speaker 1: treating the label. So when we acknowledge it, that's when
Speaker 1: we can kind of dissect it a little bit and
Speaker 1: kind of help the younger generation of it's not necessarily
Speaker 1: that it's cool to be trans or it's cool to
Speaker 1: be gay or any of those things. Like, it's a
Speaker 1: very complex thing, but you can still be friends with
Speaker 1: these people and still like identified differently without having to
Speaker 1: do all of these other things as well. But yeah,
Speaker 1: like when I was a part of the trans male community,
Speaker 1: I mean I was celebrated, I had a documentary, I
Speaker 1: did a lot of things, And the moment that I
Speaker 1: decided to do transition, there were a good amount of
Speaker 1: trans men that stopped talking to me. And it was
Speaker 1: fascinating to me because and I want to say this,
Speaker 1: it's even outside of being trans. It's like when I've
Speaker 1: lost friends even during my transition, where I was like,
Speaker 1: I thought you liked me for me, and I thought
Speaker 1: you so ported me for me, but find out that
Speaker 1: they're saying different things behind my back, or they don't
Speaker 1: actually relate to me, they only relate to the transition aspect.
Speaker 3: And when I'm friends with someone, i'm friends.
Speaker 1: With them because I connect with them, not because I'm
Speaker 1: just inspired by what they're doing and I want to
Speaker 1: aspire to be that. It's because I have some connection
Speaker 1: with them.
Speaker 3: And so.
Speaker 1: It's just like I wasn't cool anymore to some people
Speaker 1: because of that different identity, and that can be very isolating.
Speaker 1: And I can see how that can contribute to young
Speaker 1: people because we're heavily influenced by what our friends think
Speaker 1: of us during that time, and that's something that we
Speaker 1: can't help.
Speaker 3: We want to feel a part of something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we just got to hopefully educate them and hopefully,
Speaker 1: you know, they make the right decisions for themselves.
Speaker 2: Right absolutely, and if they don't, it's not the worst
Speaker 2: thing that could ever happen, you.
Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, Because I do know some people who have
Speaker 1: like just to back onto de transitioning specifically, we know
Speaker 1: where they have had bottom surgery and different things and
Speaker 1: it can't go back, and that is really hard. And
Speaker 1: so I think I acknowledge how grateful I am that
Speaker 1: I did not have a hysterectomy, and I was able
Speaker 1: to go back in a sense like I'm very fortunate
Speaker 1: of that, and so my d transition is a lot
Speaker 1: easier than some. And I think further just emphasizing like
Speaker 1: we're making a big decision, but really educating on those
Speaker 1: big decisions, because we kind of explore in experiment with
Speaker 1: our gender. But there are moments where once you do something,
Speaker 1: you cannot go back, and that is something that needs
Speaker 1: to be I think spoken of a little bit more seriously,
Speaker 1: especially with the younger generations, because it is getting easier
Speaker 1: and easier to go on hormones. And it's not that
Speaker 1: it's a better, a good thing, it's just factual it is,
Speaker 1: and so it'd be the same thing with any other medication,
Speaker 1: you know. I spoke of this real quick, just of
Speaker 1: like sometimes medical professionals think that a medication is working
Speaker 1: for an individual, but yet it's really not at all
Speaker 1: and they've already been on this or you know, whatever
Speaker 1: the case may be. So I think there's more education
Speaker 1: in general and conversation will help.
Speaker 2: That, right, And hormones is one thing, and then having
Speaker 2: surgery is another thing. And I just think, I mean,
Speaker 2: I personally I've only had one surgery. I had to
Speaker 2: tricky a shave. But I just say, like, take your
Speaker 2: time and ask questions along the way and check with
Speaker 2: yourself and make sure that this is correct, because, as
Speaker 2: you say, once you have bottom surgery, there's really no no,
Speaker 2: there's no going back there.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, there's no checklist, you know, take it
Speaker 1: as it comes to you, right.
Speaker 2: So, Alia, thank you for joining us today. I really
Speaker 2: appreciate it. Can you tell the listeners where they can
Speaker 2: find you, follow you, interact with you.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. This is a
Speaker 3: great conversation.
Speaker 1: I feel very connected with you, and I know that
Speaker 1: there will be plenty of more after this. But if
Speaker 1: you need to find me on anything, my biggest is
Speaker 1: my TikTok platform. It's Alia x Ishmael, same thing as
Speaker 1: my Instagram, and through there you can find my YouTube
Speaker 1: where I really really go in depth and I'm extremely
Speaker 1: vulnerable about my story and experiences of how I can
Speaker 1: best describe of why I decided to do transition and
Speaker 1: why I decided to transition in the first place.
Speaker 2: All right, wonderful, Thank you so much. It was wonderful
Speaker 2: talking with you today. Thank you you too Alrighty Beauty
Speaker 2: Translated listeners that brings us to the end of another
Speaker 2: wonderful episode. I really hope that this was insightful for
Speaker 2: you all, and I hope that this helped to unpack
Speaker 2: some conversations that are hard to have. And I hope
Speaker 2: you know that it's okay if you are doubting yourself,
Speaker 2: and it's okay to ask questions as you go along.
Speaker 2: I'll see you on Monday for the next minisode. If
Speaker 2: you haven't already, please leave us a rating and review
Speaker 2: over on Apple Podcasts. We greatly appreciate it, and I
Speaker 2: hope you all have a beautiful rest of your week.
Speaker 2: Bye bye. Beauty Translated is hosted by me Carmen Laurent
Speaker 2: and produced by Kurt garn and Jessica Crinchicch, with production
Speaker 2: assistance from Jennifer Bassett. Special thanks to Ali Perry and
Speaker 2: Ali Canter for their support. Our theme song is composed
Speaker 2: by Aaron Kaufman. Beauty Translated is proud to be part
Speaker 2: of the Outspoken network from iHeart Podcasts. For more iHeart Podcasts,
Speaker 2: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 2: get your podcasts.