WEBVTT - Becoming Issa, then Alia again: detransitioning, is it all that bad? 0:00:02.080 --> 0:00:04.000 People always want to be right you know what you mean, 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:05.800 and be like, well, you made the wrong decisions. Let's 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:08.080 show the world how these people made the wrong decision. 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:10.080 But it's more complex than that. 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:21.239 Hey, BD translated listeners and welcome to another episode. This week, 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.240 we're going to be discussing another touchy subject in the 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:29.760 trans community, detransition, or as the more optimistically minded put it, 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:34.199 re transition. I'm talking with a former transman. Her name 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.239 is Alia. We're going to get into the politics and 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:41.960 perspectives from within and beyond the trans community and hopefully 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:45.840 break down the barriers we face and having these conversations. 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.560 So this week on the pod, I have a guest 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.600 with me by the name of Alia. They are not 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:02.280 based in the South this time. You'll hear a little 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:07.600 something in their accient when they talk. But Alia has 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:12.600 transitioned and detransitioned, and I brought them onto the show 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:15.560 to talk about their experience. Alia, Welcome to the pod. 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:16.479 How are you doing today? 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:19.880 Thank you so much. I'm doing well. I'm very excited. 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:21.640 There are a lot of things that I think you 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:24.560 and I haven't common outside of the trends world. 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:26.760 So it's going to be a good conversation. 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:31.920 Yeah, and by that you mean, of course you're professionally 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:33.520 a barber, is that right? 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:37.160 Yes, I am a barber that's based in Detroit, Michigan. 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:40.200 Very much loved my career, but I can see how 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:42.240 it intertwines into my day today. 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:45.640 Yeah. Absolutely, And of course you know, I come from 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:49.200 a background of being in the beauty industry also, and 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:50.960 I was in love with that at the time. Now 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:52.920 I'm in love with podcasting because I get to do 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:53.920 it from my closet. 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:56.320 But it will be my next love. 0:01:56.880 --> 0:02:00.160 I'm trying to work into that eventually one day too. 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:01.360 So I'm not far behind you. 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:05.720 Yeah, I mean everybody's got a podcast these days, right now. 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:07.760 So you told us a little bit about like you. 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:10.880 So you're from Detroit, Michigan, you're a barber. Can you 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:15.040 tell us a little bit about your transition story if 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:16.440 you want to get into that a little bit. 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:21.560 So, I socially started transitioning and that is more so 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:26.040 changing my name, having a you know, different appearance as 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:29.680 well when I was about seventeen eighteen years old, and 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:32.760 I started medically transitioning, which is going on hormones and 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:35.680 getting surgery between the ages of twenty and twenty one, 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:38.720 so that would have been back in twenty fifteen, is 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:40.359 when I started my medical transition. 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:43.560 At that time, the name you're using at that time 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:44.920 was Lisa. Is that correct? 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:45.560 Yes? 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:48.839 So I actually was still using my birth name, which 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:52.480 is Alia, up until about six months into my transition, 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:55.440 and that's when I decided to change my name to Isa, 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:58.399 which still is kind of like a gender neutral name 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:01.840 and a sense. But I am a Lebanese and so 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.239 Alia is a feminine name and Lisa is a male name. 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:08.320 So two beautiful names and they actually sound beautiful when 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:12.520 they're said together. Also, so thank you, thank you. Yeah, 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:16.280 but I love the background history there also. Okay, so 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:19.400 you started your social transition when you were about seventeen 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:22.840 or eighteen, you started your medical transition, you said it 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:26.840 in about twenty fifteen. Yeah, and then I know that 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:31.960 you're pretty active like vocally as a trans advocate a 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:36.880 trans spokesperson. But then kind of along the way something 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:39.920 started to feel like not right. So when was that 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:42.840 and when did you start to notice that this may 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:43.800 have not been right for you? 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:45.360 Yeah? 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:48.440 I like to compare to when I did first go 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:51.200 through my transitions, so you know, you know, it's never 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:53.480 just this, Okay, I woke up today and it's different, right, 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:56.080 Like a series of moments happened and you're like, Okay, 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:57.680 this isn't feeling right and this is it and it 0:03:57.760 --> 0:03:58.480 just collects. 0:03:58.560 --> 0:03:58.840 Right. 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:03.520 So, for a long time throughout my transition, I would 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:08.000 say probably at the three or four year mark, I 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:11.720 was having those moments that were increasing right of hm, 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.800 I'm not really feeling like I did my first and 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:19.599 second year on hormones, and even to the sense of oh, 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.720 I still feel this way even though I've been on 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:26.160 hormones for four years and then it was five years. 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:30.920 But I had so many distractions work, friends, and things 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:32.760 like that that I was able to kind of push 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:34.880 it to the side for a while. And then when 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:38.240 the pandemic hit, that's when I really sat with my 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.560 feelings for the first time in a probably in my life, 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:47.120 to be honest, and I really dissected those feelings. I 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:50.720 did a little bit of hypnotherapy for some inner child work. 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.240 I had some childhood traumas that I needed to work 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:56.360 through that I never did even prior to my transition. 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:01.920 That very much contributed to my transition, and that's when 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:05.360 I decided that it was time to kind of make 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:09.599 a change, maybe go back to square one again and 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:12.599 try again and see how that makes me feel. 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:15.520 So that going back to square one for you meant 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:19.200 just presenting more femininely again in. 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:22.680 A sense, because I was so I was still a 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:24.120 very gender fluid child. 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:25.560 I mean, I was a tomboy. 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:28.640 Once I went into high school, I started becoming more feminine, 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:31.000 and then right like towards the end of high school 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.279 and going into college, I was really masculine. So I 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:36.760 had been all of these expressions, but I think back 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:40.080 to square one was more so how I was before 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:44.760 I started getting back into my masculine appearance, like even 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:48.160 just the socially transitioning part, and I missed it. I 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.359 missed being feminine. I was suppressing my femininity for a 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:55.320 long time. So I think it was also a lot 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:57.480 of curiosity of like, what does that look like for 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:01.400 me as a twenty seven year old adults now. 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.520 Right, who had been transitioning for how long at that time? 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:06.120 About seven years? 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:09.800 Yeah? Yeah. I think during the pandemic, I call it 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:13.200 the Great egg Cracking of twenty twenty, we saw a 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:18.560 lot of people transitioning in twenty twenty specifically due to 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.760 the pandemic. And I think it's interesting how on kind 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:24.200 of the reverse end of that, as a trans person 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:29.800 who had been transitioning, you had reflected on that, or had, 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.080 like you said, the first time ever had the chance 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:34.600 to reflect on those things. 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:37.720 Yeah, it was very much unexpected when I made a 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.039 decision to transition. I mean, that was a big decision, 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:46.880 and I never could foresee that I was ever going 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:50.520 to reverse that decision. Well, so at the time when 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:54.240 I transitioned, de transitioning wasn't spoken about. I didn't even 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:57.240 know that that was a thing, to be honest. So 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:01.599 I think that that probably prolonged my transition was because 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:03.800 I just didn't know about it. I think I was 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:07.239 just like, Okay, I made the decision, and it's changed 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:09.440 my life so drastically that like, this is my decision 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:13.400 for the rest of my life. And when I reached 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.520 that point seven years in my transition and I felt 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:20.240 that way, I became severely depressed. I didn't know that 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:25.160 I could go back, and so until I actually realized 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:29.880 that I could, that was kind of like this kind 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:32.160 of saved my life in a sense, you know. And 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:35.160 I think in the same way that hormones. The first 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:39.920 time did, I was severely depressed and didn't know how 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:43.600 to express myself. And I think my sexuality being attracted 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.800 to pretty much anyone kind of confused me as well, 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:51.000 because the only relationships I saw growing up were between 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:53.080 a man and a woman, and so that kind of 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:57.440 reflected into, you know, my thoughts of my own relationships. 0:07:58.000 --> 0:07:59.920 Yeah, well, thank you for being so open about the 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.200 like you're saying, like that sounds like a very hard 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:07.160 realization to face as a trans person. 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:10.720 Yeah, when you make such a decision, you're so sure 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:11.840 of it, and then all of a sudden you're like, 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:13.560 wait a minute, I don't know if I'm so sure 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:16.920 of this. Yeah, I do want to add, you know, 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.080 just because I made that decision, it doesn't mean that 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.000 my feelings of gender dysphoria and body dysmorphya are gone. 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:27.080 I just found new ways to cope with it within 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:30.080 society and in the body that I am in, with 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:32.960 the roles that are placed on us and all of that. 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:38.040 It just was easier, not even just socially, but you know, 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:41.200 giving yourself an injection every week or every two weeks 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:43.319 and keeping up with like that was a lot. It's 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:46.320 a lot of work, it is, And I just realized 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:52.520 that being a trans man in this world was not 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:57.360 a good experience for me. As far as continuing that, 0:08:57.679 --> 0:08:59.960 you know, I'm very grateful, I'm glad that I experienced 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.800 STA but I just realized, I was, like, I don't 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.560 want to be a trans man in today's society and world. 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:11.199 Yeah, and I think that is understandable. I mean, today's 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:15.280 society is not great to trans individuals. 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:18.520 I mean, anyone with any type of fluidity that's out 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:20.760 of the binary. It is a very difficult journey to 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:21.160 be in. 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:25.439 Absolutely, absolutely I can totally relate to it on that 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:28.120 end for sure. Yeah, I mean a little bit of 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:30.599 my own backstory, but you know, I dropped out of 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:33.600 school because I was trans. I didn't go to college, 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:35.920 And you know, I don't regret those things per se, 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:40.800 but those are like those external factors that can really 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:51.240 really dissuade you. For one reason or another. The trans 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:55.480 community is seemingly put at odds with detransitioning trans people. 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:59.600 Right wing media uses their narratives as reason to question 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:03.760 the villainalidity of transidentities and to encourage the demand for 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:08.080 limitations on access to gender affirming care for trans people, 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:12.760 and unfortunately, some of those that are regretful, upset, and 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:16.040 hurt will be the ones given the spotlight to push 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:19.480 an anti trans narrative that we see manifest on both 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:23.480 sides of the political zeitgeist. While Republicans are busy making 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:26.200 the worst and the majority of the anti trans legislation 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:29.760 in this country, it shouldn't be downplayed that even otherwise 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:34.439 liberal minded people also wish trans people would disappear. This 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:36.640 is what makes it a touching subject for trans people, 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:40.240 but to me, they're part of the trans community. It 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:44.680 shouldn't be downplayed that even a D transition is a 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:51.400 transition that takes work too. Kind of getting more into 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:54.520 the topic of D transition, because this is kind of 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:59.000 a topic that in the trans community. Outside of the 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:03.480 trans community, it is a topic that makes people nervous. 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:05.920 I think it makes trans people nervous to talk about it, 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:09.560 and sometimes it makes people nervous to talk about it. 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.680 Also, shoot, it makes the people be transitioning nervous to 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:13.360 talk about it. 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:17.560 Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I just kind of want to unpack, 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:19.920 like why that is? Why do you think that is? 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:24.520 I think one there's so much. There's so much like 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.120 you better be making the right decision, like this is 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.160 for the rest of your life. You better be doing this, 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:32.079 like you said, you want this, you know, and whether 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:36.600 that's from your peers, your coworkers, your parents, your romantic partners, whatever, right, 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:38.240 you're like, oh my god, I don't want to be 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:41.200 wrong about this or I don't want to change my 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:45.480 mind because I now have spent this money, I have 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:48.760 now changed my life. I now have people call me 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:50.960 something else. And I said, this is who I am, 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:53.040 and I am so one hundred about that, right, not 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:55.840 even I just felt so because I was one hundred 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:57.040 percent about that, right. 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:00.560 And so now you're go by. 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:02.960 You have different experiences, you meet new people, you have 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:07.160 new conversations, you start dissecting gender even more, you know, 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:09.720 and all these things, and you realize, well, maybe this 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:11.560 isn't the route that I want to be on. But 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:14.040 now you have to go and tell everyone that you 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:16.520 already told who you were that okay, that's not who 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:21.840 I am. This is different. And I think that's the biggest, 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:26.000 biggest reason. And then you have a lot of shame 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.760 and guilt that, oh my god, I changed my entire 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:33.520 life and it didn't work for me, and so you 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:35.960 feel kind of like a failure in a sense, and 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.199 that can contribute to it. And I think that all 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:41.840 of these feelings are ours, and sometimes you like to 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:46.200 project them unto other people, which I can understand because 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.800 when you say you have these feelings and you know 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:50.960 you don't know what to do with them, and you 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.760 go to a medical professional and they say, okay, well, 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:55.760 this is the protocol for that. You know, like, this 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:59.479 is how you feel, and what I've read, the experiences 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.320 that I've had, I the people that I've talked to 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:03.320 that are other medical professionals, they say, this is what 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.240 you have to do in order to combat those feelings, right, 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.800 And they do that with any medication and with any 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:12.040 surg or regardless if you're trans. They say, okay, you 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:14.040 have depression, you have ADHD, you know, this is what 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.400 you go on. And it doesn't work for everyone. And 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:20.600 I think that for a long time that wasn't really 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:24.440 thought of when it came to the trans experience. So 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.960 many people were changing their life and doing all of 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:29.120 these things right and having. 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:30.320 Great experiences with it. 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.959 But even then in twenty fifteen, like I said, I 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:38.640 would detransitioning was never talked about, and you can see 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:41.560 it in this way as well as Imagine you're a 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.520 therapist or a doctor and you're listening to someone and 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:46.400 they say these feelings and you say, okay, this is 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:48.880 what you need to do, and they do that, and 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.439 you've helped them do that, right, and then all of 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:53.760 a sudden they change your mind. How do you think 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:55.840 that person like you are going to feel as a 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.160 medical professional, You're going to think, oh my god, I 0:13:59.280 --> 0:13:59.880 messed up. 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.319 And that's a really hard feeling to grasp. 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:06.840 But we're all trying to make the best decisions with 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:10.720 the information that we're given, right, And so I can't 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:14.880 say I'm mad at that therapist and I need to 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:16.960 go against them or anything like that. Like I have 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:18.840 to trust that they were trying to do the best thing. 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.520 But at the all, the whole turnaround of all that 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:24.920 with having that compassion and empathy for you know, us 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:29.640 being human beings, right, the medical fields and big farm 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:33.000 on all that they are profiting heavy off of a 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:36.680 lot of body modifications in general. Right, how many people 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.280 do you see getting filler knows jobs bb out all 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:42.000 these different things within the beauty industry to tie that in. 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:44.680 It's a lot of money that they're making off of this. 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:49.040 So maybe the therapist is being really empathetic and they're 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:52.360 understanding and all those things, but the surgeon just needs 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:55.000 that letter from that therapist, so they're not inquiring on 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:57.720 how you feel, and they're just doing the surgery. And 0:14:57.800 --> 0:14:59.960 those surgeries start to cost a lot of money. Hormone 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:01.600 start to cost a lot of money if your insurances 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:03.920 and co you know, all of these different aspects to it. 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.240 So I can see someone getting very angry and being like, 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:08.920 we need to stop this or need to figure this out. 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.280 But on the other contrast of that, it works for 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:16.600 some people and we can't forget that, you know. And 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:19.960 so I think, like with all of those things on it, 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.320 it's like it is a very hard conversation to talk 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:25.200 about because it will never be black and white. It 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:27.960 is a very gray area and always will be and 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:30.760 just accepting that is what's going to I think help 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:31.480 a lot of people. 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:35.280 And I completely agree. I completely agree, because I think 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:38.640 we just need to accept that it's a normal part, 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:42.560 like detransition is a normal part of the trans experience 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.520 in the sense that, like you said, it's not necessarily 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:51.000 for every person and that's okay, that's perfectly fine. And 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.360 I think it takes a lot of strength to be 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:57.960 able to say that, because, like you said, you have 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:01.560 all these external factors, have the external factors of society, 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.280 society telling you you're wrong for being trands to begin with, 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:06.880 but then you have the external factor of all the 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:10.840 people that you've got to support you in being trans 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:13.760 and in your transition that you know, like you said, 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:27.520 have to go and explain this to So we touched 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:31.840 on it a little bit. But people do transition decide 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:35.000 that it's not for them. They do get angry at 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:40.440 their medical providers, their therapists, things like that, and the 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:44.840 media really takes onto those stories. What does the media 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:47.840 or what do people get wrong about de transition. 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:52.960 So my first ever therapist, the thirty minutes into our 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:57.200 first ever session, said I know your trends. If I 0:16:57.200 --> 0:16:59.600 could give you the hormones today, I would And that 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:04.479 was like I was like, WHOA hold up? And I 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:07.439 was like in my mind, I was thinking, you know 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:09.760 nothing about me, Like I didn't even really get into 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.600 the nitty gritty of it, Like I haven't even really 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:15.720 told you you know, it's only been thirty minutes an hour. 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:19.399 And I didn't go back to them, and I went 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.000 to another therapist, and I spent six weeks at that therapist, 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:24.440 and at the end of it, she was like, I 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:26.440 don't think that you're not trans. She's like, but I 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:28.040 think you have a lot of things that you need 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:30.840 to work through before you add this big life change 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:34.399 to your situation. And I didn't want to hear that. 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:36.760 I wanted to hear, Okay, you can have hormones now. 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.479 And six months had gone by since I saw that 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:42.679 first therapist, and I made an appointment with her and 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:45.000 she said, even though I haven't seen you in six months, 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:48.520 you still identify the same. I can write you your 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:53.199 letter today, and so she did. And so that was 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:55.840 my experience, Right, So I had one therapist that was 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:57.800 like ready to just give it to me, and then 0:17:57.800 --> 0:17:59.760 I had another therapist was like, no, I don't feel 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.920 calm put in into that. So there's those kinds, like 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:06.400 everyone has a different experience within that, right, Like people 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:08.199 don't want to gatekeep and then but people don't want 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:09.960 to just give them out, Like it's just it's really 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:15.720 based on who the medical professional is and so sometimes 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:17.560 people in the media will talk to that person that's 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:19.600 ready to give them out and then or they'll talk 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:21.320 to someone who's gatekeeping a little bit right, And so 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:23.560 they pick and choose which side they want to show 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:27.280 a bit right, and they always want to say I 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:29.720 told you. So people always want to be right, you 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:31.240 know what I mean, and be like, well, you made 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:33.320 the wrong decision. Let's show the world how these people 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:36.480 made the wrong decision. But it's more complex than that, 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:39.680 because I still have the genderness for you, I still 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:41.879 have a body dys morphia that never went away. So 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:45.399 it's not you're right and I'm wrong. I just chose 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.600 to perceive my situation differently and now deal with it 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:53.439 differently than what the protocol has been for a long time. 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.600 So there's a lot of people that don't want people 0:18:56.680 --> 0:19:00.919 to medically transition, for whatever their reasons may be, and 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:03.439 they'll use that as Okay, well you're going to just 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:08.960 de transition anyways. But the thing is is and like, 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:11.920 even if they do transition, it's like and like it's 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:14.800 not like every single person that goes on hormones de transitions. 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:18.240 They're just taking those big stories. And also it's new 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.720 right now in a sense new right, And what I 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:22.760 mean by new is no one was talking about it 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.879 before a couple of years ago. Now it's even more 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:29.640 And I'd like to think that I contributed to making 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.720 people feel comfortable to talk about it, you know, and 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:35.040 not look at it as a negative thing. Just look 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:37.080 at it like it just comes to acceptance. 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:39.080 But I did want to ask you because it kind 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:41.040 of sounds like when you were living as a trans 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:46.600 man in that moment, you don't think of yourself as 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:51.960 living authentically for that period of time. Is that how 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:53.399 I'm understanding it? 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:56.679 Yeah, definitely, I think that's like a perfect way. I 0:19:56.680 --> 0:20:00.000 think like in every moment that I've lived my life, 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.639 I've tried to live it as authentic as I could, right, 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:05.080 based on all of those experiences and feelings. 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:08.200 And so obviously as humans. 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:09.879 Like we can feel regret and things like that, but 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:12.760 I choose not to for my life. There are things 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:14.720 that I can say like, oh, like I made a 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.200 mistake or I shouldn't have done that, but I can't 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:18.239 go back and change it. 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:20.040 So that's where the acceptance comes in. 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:22.720 I have to accept that that moment, that's the decision 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:26.440 that I made so now that things have changed, whatever 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:28.600 it may be, how can I feel better about it 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.760 in this moment? And that's just like having compassion for 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:33.800 yourself as a human being. I mean, no one's got 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.720 the manual, you know, we don't know how to live 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:37.520 in this world. 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:38.840 We're just trying our best to. 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:43.239 Yeah. I think that's incredible because thank you. You're kind 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:46.080 of on a journey now similar to the one that 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:51.520 you were on previously when you were transitioning masculinizing. I 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:55.800 guess in that sense, now you're doing laser hair removal 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.560 and stuff like that, and I still find it refreshing 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:03.240 to hear, like, even though you are still spending money 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:07.560 to kind of get back to square one, as you said, 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:10.840 I find it refreshing that you still don't look at 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:13.880 it as like a necessarily a negative and you find 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:15.560 that acceptance in the experience. 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:16.960 Yeah. 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:19.800 I guess like I would have never known if I 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.200 didn't do it, you know, and it would have always 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:24.879