WEBVTT - I Like You As You Are 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:03.600 Hi. Before we get started, I wanted to give you 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:08.080 a heads up that this episode contains brief mentions of trauma, abuse, 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:16.640 and suicide. I want to ask you if Fred Rogers 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:19.599 were here today and you could sit down with him, 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:22.520 and he sat across from you and said, Hi, Actually, 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:24.799 it's nice to meet you. I'm Fred. I want to 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:29.840 know what you would ask him. I mean, it wouldn't 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:37.440 be one question. I would want to sit and listen 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:42.640 to Fred Rogers talk about the people who he's loved 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:45.280 in his life. I think there's so much to learn 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:50.920 from listening to people talk about the people who make 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:56.200 them feel a certain way. This is Ashley c Ford 0:00:56.760 --> 0:00:59.200 in our first episode. I talked to her about a 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.680 very bad day, a bathtub and rediscovering Mr Rogers as 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:07.520 an adult. I would love, love, love for him to 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:11.680 talk to me about his love of his wife, his 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:17.760 love of close friends, of pen pals, how he appreciated 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:21.440 the parts of them that you know, it's not just 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:26.080 set them apart, but gave them joy. I feel like 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:30.800 Mr Rogers never really needed anybody to to be different. 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:35.840 In an interesting way, he understood that we are fascinating 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:39.600 creatures all our own and there are people who when 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:44.119 they speak of passion, when they speak of themselves at 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:52.600 their best, you learn so much about what happiness can 0:01:52.680 --> 0:02:01.000 create in a person. It's so beautiful and it's so wonderful. 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:09.720 And I think that very few people appreciated and respected 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:16.760 the concept of love like Fred Rogers. There's so many 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:20.519 things to know and to wonder about in this world, 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:25.000 and there's so many people who want to show and 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:29.240 tell you all they can, people who want to help 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:34.600 you to learn and to be brave and strong and 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:41.160 interesting and loving. That's the best part of living, loving, 0:02:42.720 --> 0:03:00.560 and I love being with you. I'm carved a Wallace 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:04.440 and this is Finding Fred, a podcast about Fred Rogers 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:13.000 from Fatherly and I Heart Media in partnership with Transmitter Media. 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:17.000 We spoke to Ashley Seaford in our first episode because 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:20.480 she reminded us that as adults, it's possible to return 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:25.320 to Mr Rogers and feel affirmed and accepted. But then 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:28.240 she also took time to consider what Fred might have 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.320 been asking of her as a small child, and might 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:35.760 still be asking of her now. I've been following her example, 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:38.880 wrestling with what grown up things there are to learn 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:46.480 from this children's entertainer for a long time, I've been 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:51.360 trying to talk about feelings in a serious way, and 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:57.160 I think at times I've been dismissed because of that 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:05.280 and definitely thought of as soft or lacking and intelligence. 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:09.360 And I think that what Mr Rogers in the Cultural 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:14.120 Conversation is doing right now is offering a lot of 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:19.159 people a chance to reparent themselves in one way or 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:27.640 another by listening and realizing that while their feelings aren't facts, 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:33.880 their feelings are powerful, and feelings change things whether or 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:38.960 not we want them to. And we're not going to 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:44.080 solve anything, change anything, um progress on some of the 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:47.560 issues we want to progress on if we continue to 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:55.640 act as if emotions and feelings are not having real 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:59.240 consequences in our society and in our culture and in 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:05.760 our everyday lives. We define love differently all across this country. 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:10.480 Like for me, love includes accountability. There's no such thing 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:14.880 as love without accountability. And some people think of love 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:18.839 as active and some people think of love as a 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:23.279 nothing emotion. Like what what could love possibly add to 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:28.440 this conversation? What could love possibly help in these trying times? 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:34.200 We aren't talking about what love means, and we are 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:38.880 acting like figuring that out isn't a worthy conversation, and 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.240 we're going to pay for it, And so the idea 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:47.280 that love would be useless. Right now, I'm like, oh no, oh, no, 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:54.520 Love changes everything. For a long time, I thought love 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:59.920 was just a stronger version of like. But Fred said 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:04.159 love is an active noun, like the words struggle. To 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.440 love someone, he says, is to strive to accept that 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:11.440 person exactly the way he or she is to accept 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:16.720 ourselves as we are right here and now. That has 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:20.520 nothing to do with liking people. It's about something else, 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:26.760 something requiring time and patience and quiet, things that may 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:30.440 seem hard to come by today. Time and patience and 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.800 quiet seem especially lacking in the place where many of 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:38.280 us do most of our noisemaking. Online. The Internet is 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:42.520 a kind of manic modern neighborhood where outrage changes to laughter, 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:45.960 changes to vanity, all in a few seconds and seemingly 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.240 out of our own control. That's when I start feeling 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:52.440 like a video game and somebody else has the joystick, 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:56.320 And in that case, all the people on my timeline 0:06:56.520 --> 0:07:00.080 have the joystick, and I'm letting them move me in 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:05.360 different directions, and I've lost the plot. I've lost control, 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:11.120 and I don't like to feel that way. I was 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:13.960 talking to my therapists in the early stages of making 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:17.520 this show and thinking out loud about what makes Fred 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:21.800 Rogers interesting and important today, and she stopped me and 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:24.960 she said, the thing I've always thought about him is 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:28.600 that he leads with self. This, of course, made no 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:30.880 sense to me. So she broke out the markers in 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:33.480 the paper and she drew a big circle, and on 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:37.400 the outside of the circle, she labeled all of these selves, 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.080 these roles that we take on when we interact with 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:43.440 the world. That protect herself, who makes sure that nobody 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:45.920 is hurting me or my family, The self that needs 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:49.880 to prove its worth, the fearful self, the prideful self, 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:54.720 the needy self. She wrote all these selves around the circle, 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:59.240 and I pointed to the empty center of it, and 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:03.840 I said, so, then, what's that? And she said, that 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:08.640 is what we are. That isn't anger or fear or 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:14.600 shame or worthlessness or a loneness. That is the true self. 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:18.800 And when I watched Mr Rogers, it's clear that this 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:23.360 person has done the work necessary to lead primarily with 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:27.640 that self. The other parts are there, but there in 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.600 the back seat he can be in dialogue with them, 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:34.440 but they don't run the show, or, as Ashley would say, 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:39.520 it's the true self that has the joystick. I recently 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:43.760 went and saw Celene Dion perform UH in concert, and 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:46.760 one of the first songs she sings is the Power 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:50.520 of Love. Now, I remember when it came out. I 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:53.440 used to go all nights skating with my cousins and 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:57.480 my brother at roller Dome South in Fort Wayne, Indiana. 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.720 And when I was a kid at all night skate 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:04.040 rolling around the skating rink, and the Power of Love 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:09.640 would come on right to skate two, and I would 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:14.040 just throw my hands back behind me and skate as 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:18.199 quickly as I could. And there's that part that she 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:23.080 gets to, you know that, because I'm y'allt and I 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:26.319 when she would get to that part, that's when I 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:30.200 would stop skating, and I would just let the momentum 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:34.280 of my body push me forward with my arms back 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:38.040 and my eyes closed, singing at the top of my lungs. 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:42.160 And the DJ would get on the microphone and would say, 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:48.480 Ashley Ford, once again, this is a couple's skate, and 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:55.880 I could not care. I was going to skate to 0:09:56.080 --> 0:10:01.959 that song. I feel like the person I was in 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:08.760 that moment was and is my core self. I feel 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:15.520 like there was this deep understanding of myself in that 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.280 time of what I wanted, what I valued, how to 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:23.640 just feel my body and enjoy it for what it 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:26.840 was doing, for the movement, for the fun, how to 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:32.400 like dream about big love and what love could be like, 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:38.520 and be surrounded by people and still feel like I 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.640 was my own and I couldn't care what they thought 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:44.000 about me. I couldn't care if I was going to 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:47.200 be in trouble. All I could think was who I 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.560 am right now is like good, Like this is good. 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.440 And it wasn't good because I was doing anything for 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:56.240 anybody else, And it wasn't good because I was trying 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:59.200 to be anything else. It's about a way of being 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:05.360 and putting myself at the center, not because everybody else 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:07.920 should put me at the center, but just because I 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:12.520 am worthy of being at the center of myself. I'm 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:17.600 glad I'm the way I am. I think I'm fine. 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:23.640 I'm glad I'm the way I am. The pleasure's mine. 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:29.360 It's good that I look the way I should. Wouldn't 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:36.600 change now if I could, because I'm happy to be me. 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:43.920 Aren't there times that you feel that way that you're 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:49.280 just glad you're the way you are? Good for you 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:55.520 if you know those times, yes, sir, I'm proud of it. 0:11:55.559 --> 0:12:05.239 When you can feel that way. Ye. Hope for ourselves 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:09.600 and hope for our relationships our communities depends on our 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:13.320 ability to find our center, to stay in touch with it, 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:17.720 and to act from it. Fred Rogers spent his life 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:21.400 creating television for children that was shaped in part by 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:25.200 this new understanding of what we need in order to flourish. 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:28.439 Mr rogers Neighborhood was less about learning a B c 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:32.319 S and more about sorting through and managing the enormous 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:36.320 feelings that move through you as you grow and Actuley 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.880 says he did that by making time and space for 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:45.679 the little feelings, just listening to them, and that is 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:51.400 something a lot of us have forgotten. The problem is 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:56.320 is that we think the extreme feelings are the only 0:12:56.440 --> 0:13:00.520 feelings that should motivate action, and I think think that 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.880 we have to stop relying on the idea that certain 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.440 feelings will compel us to act a certain way, and 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:11.800 instead notice our feelings, no matter how mild they are, 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:16.920 and choose to do something with them. And I think, 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:21.080 unfortunately what we've done is encouraged a real lack of 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:25.280 imagination for what can be done when you feel something 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.679 that is not as strong. I think it's a lack 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:38.120 of imagination. The first time we talked, one of the 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:40.960 questions that people seem to really respond to is and 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:42.720 want to ask you what do you do with the 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:46.839 mad that you feel? And in this conversation, we've talked 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.880 less about mad and more about love, And so I'm 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:52.200 going to ask you what some may think is the 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:54.080 inverse of that question, though I don't know that it is, 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:57.160 what do you do with the love that you feel? 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:00.880 I keep what I need and I spend the rest, 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:08.240 and there's always more. It's it's abundant. I I'd like 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:12.120 to honor people and love people with my presence and 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.560 with being president with them, because not enough of us 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:19.360 get that, and I'm good at that. And if that's 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.560 the gift I got to give, then that's what y'all 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:30.080 gonna get. Hi. My name is Risa and I've never 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.880 called it for a show before, but I was fired 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:38.240 by you guys. We asked you you who've been listening 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:41.920 to share stories about people who showed you how to 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:47.360 be helpers. But that's really a question about love too. Hi, 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:51.280 mom saw that we each walk around with a bokay 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:56.200 of flowers and walk down the street. If somebody says 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:59.720 hied you with smiles and there giving you a flower, 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:03.200 and you have a choice. You can smile back and 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:05.400 say hi, give them a flower back, or you going 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:09.680 to take their flower of human And so the trick 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:13.000 is to keep your okay healthy. And so if you're 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:18.200 always giving away your flowers and not accepting other people's 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:20.720 flowers and return, you're going to run out of flowers. 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:25.120 Whereas if you're always accepting other people's flowers but you're 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:28.120 not getting out yours, and you're gonna find them with 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:32.240 a little huge out of sorts. Okay, So to tricking, 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:38.240 you know, to find that balance. More stories from you 0:15:38.720 --> 0:16:41.320 After a quick break, h Ashley says she takes the 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:46.160 love she needs and gives the rest away. That feels 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:48.440 most natural when we're giving it away to our family 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:52.120 or our friends. But when we give it away to strangers, 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:54.720 we're not doing it because we think we might get 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:58.040 something back. We may never even see them again. We're 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:04.359 doing it because we to be good neighbors, high carvel. 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:10.000 My name is Benny Delgado. What a profound question. Who 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:11.919 taught me what it means to be a helper? And 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:17.160 you know, I distinctly remember my mother. We were driving 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:21.159 down the road. It was snowing. It was really cold 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:26.600 that day, and we're coming down a busy street and 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:32.520 there was a mother and her children that were walking 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:36.119 against the wind with the snow hitting them and carrying 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:40.440 bags of groceries and uh and immediately she pulled over, 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.160 rolled down the window and offered to give these people 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:48.359 a ride. And immediately she asked us to move over. 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.600 There was several kids and the mother. Mother got in 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:53.480 the front seat and we all squished into the back. 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:56.119 She got out, help get the groceries and its the 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:58.720 trunk of a car and took them to wherever they 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:03.199 were going, way past our house. And you know that 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:08.280 that memory is ingrained in my mind. Hello, my name 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:14.439 is Justin sweeton Um from Texas and two thousand and sixteen, 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:18.080 I was homeless and on drugs and needed to make 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:22.600 a change in my life. So I walked to uh Conro, Texas, 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:25.320 met a man there by the name of Luke Reatas. 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:30.359 He invited me into the men's transitional home called the 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:36.280 Freedom House. He basically just instructed me on good ethics 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:40.760 through the lens of Christianity. A few months into the program, 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:43.359 the guy who was running the Corner House of Prayer, 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:46.919 he was stepping down after seven years. I just felt 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.640 the urge and I wanted to step into that position, 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:51.800 and I wanted to be a part of this, this 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:55.879 community to help homeless people get back on their feet. 0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:59.840 And uh Luke was absolutely on board with it. He 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:03.080 gave me a key to the church. He gave me 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:07.080 basically all authority over the place. You know, somebody who 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:09.960 had only been sober for a few months. And for 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:15.119 the next two years I impacted people's lives like I 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:17.800 wouldn't believe, you know. I went from someone who was 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:24.280 in search of help to suddenly giving help. It was 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:30.200 the most important two years of my life. Ki grovel Um. 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:33.080 When I was in the third grade, I was a 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:38.119 painfully awkward kid and had glasses and I had a 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:42.280 big backpack, and I got picked on a lot by 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.639 this one girl in particular. I was just I was 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:50.600 so afraid of her. And I had this teacher, Mr. Lebron, 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:56.200 who paired us together. We had a writing assignment and 0:19:56.240 --> 0:20:00.240 he said, she needs some help, and I think you 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:03.119 would be really good at helping her with this writing assignment, 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:07.200 and you need some help with your presentation because you're 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:10.719 not good at speaking up. And she's really brave and 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:16.840 really strong, and it it changed my whole life. I 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:20.159 became friends with this girl. We realized that we needed 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:24.399 each other. She taught me how to speak up for 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:28.840 myself and how to not take bullying from other people. 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.240 And it helps me relate to people that I wouldn't 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:35.840 otherwise relate to. And I just mister Brown, if you're 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:38.720 out there, I think value all the time, and thank 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:50.439 you so much. When I was in my twenties, I 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:54.720 went through a crippling depression. It was as if all 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:58.480 the unprocessed trauma from my childhood just showed up on 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:01.960 my door one day and moved in my apartment. I 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:04.560 began to feel like it would maybe be better if 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:09.399 I didn't bother being alive at all. I didn't think 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:11.720 I had a lot of value to the world. I 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:14.520 didn't think that I was equipped to deal with life. 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:18.920 My closest friend at the time, I saw my struggle 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:23.119 and gifted me a pass to this African American meditation 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:27.840 retreat in northern California. It seemed random at the time, 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:31.760 but I had nothing else to lose. On the way up, 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:34.199 I volunteered to pick up one of the meditation teachers 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:36.960 who was flying in from New York. I had always 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:40.560 been told that when in pain, just find one simple 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:43.960 act of service that you can manage and do it. 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:47.960 The teacher I picked up that day was the Reverend 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:52.160 Angel Kyoto Williams. She was the first real Zen Buddhist 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:54.359 I ever met, and she was nothing like the movies 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:57.520 told me and ordained Zen practitioner would be. She was 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:00.720 black and queer and have the no non since demeanor 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:03.720 of a born and raised New Yorker. And when I 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:08.840 attended her Dharma talks, I was mesmerized. Here she was 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:15.000 talking about a liberation beyond liberation. She talked about love 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:18.159 as a form of practice, resistance to oppression as a 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:22.199 spiritual calling. She talked about meditation and quiet as a 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:27.040 path toward the full realization of the self. I didn't 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:31.879 understand all of it, but I trusted it. Something about 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:34.800 a woman who grew up in Queens teaching me love 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:40.400 and understanding just hit me. We became friends, and over 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:43.119 the years I sometimes have practiced with her often and 0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:47.080 sometimes not so often. But the way she has looked 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:51.880 at me and seen me and loved me, it did 0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:54.720 for me what Fred Rogers did for me. It gave 0:22:54.760 --> 0:23:00.399 me this very quiet, very subtle sense that I have value, 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:06.800 that I matter just as I am. In some way, 0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:12.560 Angel might have saved my life. She's written some books, 0:23:12.560 --> 0:23:15.440 including Being Black and Then In the Art of Fearlessness 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:19.720 and Grace and Radical Dharma, Talking Love, Race and Liberation. 0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:22.520 She's the founder of the Center of Transformative Change in 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:26.040 the Spiritual director of the meditation based New Dharma Community. 0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:28.760 As long as I've known her, her work has been 0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:33.200 about freedom, freedom from oppression, freedom from anger and hate, 0:23:33.520 --> 0:23:39.040 freedom from suffering, freedom for all of us. I could 0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:42.000 not talk about the work that Fred Rogers did without 0:23:42.040 --> 0:23:45.639 talking to the person I know who most directly aligns 0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:49.200 with Fred's philosophy, even though she came from a very 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:52.960 different place than Fred did. Angel was a young activist 0:23:53.040 --> 0:23:57.080 in New York City. She knows confrontation, so I asked 0:23:57.080 --> 0:24:01.080 her how she managed to overcome the year and anger 0:24:01.160 --> 0:24:04.280 that can come with that. She told me a story 0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:06.760 about what it was like to return to New York 0:24:07.160 --> 0:24:11.480 after years of practice in California. I got off at 0:24:11.520 --> 0:24:15.520 Penn Station, as one as one does, and I left 0:24:15.640 --> 0:24:22.239 the relative space of being on the train and I 0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:28.480 entered into the sea of people that is the life 0:24:28.520 --> 0:24:33.919 of New York. And in that moment, like I felt 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:43.480 this release of like, oh so good. And it became 0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:47.919 super clear to me in that moment that what happens 0:24:48.160 --> 0:24:52.280 in that space of confrontation is you can see it 0:24:52.480 --> 0:24:56.959 as confrontation with all of these other people, but if 0:24:57.000 --> 0:24:59.119 you're open to it, you recognize that it's actually what 0:24:59.160 --> 0:25:02.600 it is as a conference tation or a meeting with yourself. Hmm. 0:25:03.760 --> 0:25:06.480 And when it's a meeting with yourself, then all of 0:25:06.520 --> 0:25:11.760 it is profound. Every single person, every single person is 0:25:11.760 --> 0:25:15.360 a meeting with yourself like velcro, right, it's like if 0:25:15.400 --> 0:25:19.280 there's nothing to rub, it just all like smooths by. 0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:22.200 But if you've got a little like stickiness there, it's 0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:25.720 like a little you know, then people's hooks get on 0:25:25.800 --> 0:25:29.480 that your that those fuzzy like gnarly places in you, 0:25:30.720 --> 0:25:34.879 and so then it's an opportunity instead of you know, 0:25:35.040 --> 0:25:40.120 you're in my way, you get right. It wasn't that. 0:25:40.200 --> 0:25:43.520 It was it was this like, oh yeah, oh there, 0:25:43.560 --> 0:25:48.960 I am, oh right, it's like and and that that 0:25:49.119 --> 0:25:53.880 was very very clear. Remember you once described sitting meditation 0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:56.600 as a kind of curiosity, and that really struck me. 0:25:56.760 --> 0:26:00.080 I remember right after you profound a profound curiosity. I 0:26:00.080 --> 0:26:03.119 remember sitting after that at this retreat with that in 0:26:03.160 --> 0:26:05.360 my head, and it was kind of hot and there 0:26:05.400 --> 0:26:08.360 was a like a beat of sweat was just down 0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:11.080 my face, and I was really annoyed by it. And 0:26:11.119 --> 0:26:14.479 it was this embodiment of something that I felt like, 0:26:14.880 --> 0:26:17.800 I think I know what she's talking about, what it 0:26:17.800 --> 0:26:19.919 means to just sit and be curious as opposed to 0:26:20.040 --> 0:26:24.760 constantly trying to manage and control. But but again I wonder, 0:26:24.920 --> 0:26:27.960 I wonder, like, okay, so I just I say people 0:26:28.000 --> 0:26:29.960 to people in the podcast, all right, everyone being curious, 0:26:30.200 --> 0:26:32.920 domag and control, thank you, goodnight? And then what keeps 0:26:32.960 --> 0:26:35.080 people from going off and doing that? In other words, 0:26:35.080 --> 0:26:37.439 how does one it's one thing to know something and 0:26:37.480 --> 0:26:39.680 a different thing to live it and embody it. How 0:26:39.720 --> 0:26:43.160 do you cross that gap? I think you, I mean, 0:26:43.200 --> 0:26:47.280 I think that's where practice comes in, right, we practice 0:26:47.480 --> 0:26:55.160 our way into contact with reality, a more truer reality, 0:26:55.560 --> 0:27:01.639 until it is familiar enough to us that we recognize 0:27:01.680 --> 0:27:07.119 the other thing is false, so that a bead of 0:27:07.160 --> 0:27:12.280 sweat is just a bead of sweat. It doesn't have 0:27:12.359 --> 0:27:16.360 to be an annoyance. It could first just be a feeling. 0:27:17.800 --> 0:27:22.560 Angel practices meditation in the neighborhood. Fred helped kids get 0:27:22.560 --> 0:27:25.600 there by showing them how to slow down and get quiet. 0:27:26.200 --> 0:27:29.200 There were long pauses on the show and moments when 0:27:29.200 --> 0:27:31.879 Fred would ask us to stop and reflect on a 0:27:32.040 --> 0:27:40.000 song or an image or just breathe. That kind of 0:27:40.000 --> 0:27:44.760 slowing down becomes really useful when we're hurt or overwhelmed, 0:27:45.119 --> 0:27:48.040 when someone makes us angry, that's when we really need 0:27:48.040 --> 0:27:52.160 to understand our motions to be able to get space 0:27:52.440 --> 0:27:58.400 from them. My practice is having the space right, carving 0:27:58.400 --> 0:28:00.959 the space out, and I mean just is a monumental 0:28:01.000 --> 0:28:04.199 feat in a world that is like constantly moving, and 0:28:04.240 --> 0:28:07.080 it moves maybe I would say about three four times 0:28:07.080 --> 0:28:09.040 as fast as it did when I was younger and 0:28:09.240 --> 0:28:14.320 entered into this practice. Just the mental commitment to carve 0:28:14.400 --> 0:28:17.040 that kind of space out in a in a society 0:28:17.080 --> 0:28:19.280 that's so much about doing to say, like I'm not 0:28:19.359 --> 0:28:22.600 gonna actually be doing anything. I'm not going to be 0:28:22.600 --> 0:28:27.320 accomplished anything or producing anything. And I think as a 0:28:27.320 --> 0:28:30.680 as a black person in particular, it frees me from 0:28:30.880 --> 0:28:33.440 the notion that I am defined by what I'm producing 0:28:34.200 --> 0:28:38.440 and for people that were brought to this land to 0:28:38.440 --> 0:28:43.040 to produce and have in so many ways organized ourselves 0:28:43.040 --> 0:28:47.040 and many of the campaigns organized for us by our 0:28:47.120 --> 0:28:51.680 leaders no shame or blame, but have been organized around 0:28:51.680 --> 0:28:56.600 our our our value in relationship to producing things. Uh. 0:28:56.680 --> 0:29:00.400 And I'm fond of saying these days. You know, I'm like, 0:29:01.240 --> 0:29:04.120 get us jobs, Like I mean, we have worked all 0:29:04.160 --> 0:29:07.080 we have, need to work for the next We don't. 0:29:07.120 --> 0:29:11.920 You know, we don't. You don't need to teach us 0:29:11.920 --> 0:29:14.680 how to work job skills. That's it, Like, that's a 0:29:15.480 --> 0:29:19.920 that's an oxy moron. Like our evidence of our job 0:29:19.960 --> 0:29:27.240 skills is this country. That's the man. They're not ready 0:29:27.240 --> 0:29:32.560 for this one, they're not ready for this conversation. So um. 0:29:32.640 --> 0:29:38.560 And so what I saw is these very particular opportunities 0:29:38.600 --> 0:29:42.880 to be a fugitive from this construct. So I think 0:29:42.960 --> 0:29:45.920 it's really it's it's really profound that just the act 0:29:46.040 --> 0:29:51.080 of the choosing of the silence, and and I get 0:29:51.120 --> 0:29:54.040 to defy some things. And I think what we're talking 0:29:54.080 --> 0:29:57.800